Reeves Depo

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    Reeves Deposition Transcript

    1 R O B E R T P. R E E V E S, called as a witness, having

    2 been first duly sworn by a Notary Public of the State of New3 York, was examined and testified as follows:4 EXAMINATION BY5 MS. MILNER:6 Q. Please state your name for the record.7 A. Robert P. Reeves.8 Q. What is your address?9 A. Arsenal North, 1234 Fifth Avenue, New York, New

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    10 York 1002911 Q. Good morning, Mr. Reeves.12 A. Good morning.13 Q. Can you tell us what your full name and the title14 of your position with the Parks Department?

    15 A. Yes, my name is Robert Reeves and Im the inspector16 in charge of the Parks Enforcement Patrol division.17 Q. And how long have you been in that position?18 A. Since September 06.19 Q. What position did you have with Parks before that20 time?21 A. Before that, I was the deputy inspector in charge22 of the training academy.23 Q. How long were you in that position?24 A. Four years, I believe.25. Q. And before that?

    1 A. I was a parks and recreation manager in the Bronx.2 Q. And how long were you in that position?3 A. Three years.4 Q. And before that?5 A. I was deputy inspector for the Parks Enforcement6 Patrol.7 Q. How long was that for?8 A. That was for about four years.9 Q. And before that?10 A. I was a captain in charge of a few difference11 commands for the Parks Enforcement Patrol.

    12 Q. How long were you a captain, sir?13 A. Four years.14 Q. And before that?15 A. I was a sergeant for the Parks Enforcement Patrol.16 Q. For how long?17 A. Six years.18 Q. And before that?19 A. I was an officer for the Park Enforcement Patrol.20 Q. For how long?21 A. One year.22 Q. Why did you decide to start a career with the Parks

    23 Department?24 A. I saw an ad in The Chief newspaper. It sounded25 like a great job.1 Q. Can you tell us about your duties as a PEP officer?2 A. I patrol all Parks properties. I was assigned to3 the Bronx. So, I patrolled all Parks properties in the4 Bronx. I corrected conditions, we answered complaints, we5 worked special events, we issued summonses, we made arrests,

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    6 we rendered first aid to individuals who were hurt or7 injured. Thats a lot of what we did.8 Q. And what are your duties in your present position?9 A. I oversee the entire enforcement division citywide.10 Q. And approximately how many people do you supervise?

    11 A. 176 full-time employees.12 Q. What about part time?13 A. In this time of year, we hire a lot of seasonal14 summer aides during the summer. That is probably an15 additional 250.16 Q. To whom do you directly answer?17 A. Assistant commissioner Mike Docket.18 Q. Do you have the authority to establish guidelines19 for the enforcement of the Parks rules?20 A. What do you mean by establish the guidelines?21 Q. Do you have authority to do Parks Enforcement?

    22 A. Im not sure I understand the question?23 Q. Do you have the authority to do policy for the24 enforcement of the Parks rules?25 A. I do create some policies, yes.1. Q. You trained other PEP employees and enforcement of2 the Parks rules, correct?3 A. Yes.4 Q. So, its fair to say that you are knowledgeable to5 Parks enforcement activity citywide?6 A. Yes7 Q. Is there anyone in the Parks Department that you

    8 would say is more knowledgeable about Parks enforcement than9 you?10 A. My division?11 Q. In any Parks Department?12 A. We have a number of individuals that specialize in13 certain things so Im not I wouldnt say Im more14 knowledgeable in all aspects.15 Q. In day-to-day overall citywide enforcement, is16 there anyone more knowledgeable than you?17 A. Day to day?18 Q. Yes.

    19 A. No.20 Q. Speaking about the Parks rules yourself, is there21 anyone that is more knowledgeable about the Parks rules?22 A. Repeat that question, Im sorry.23. Q. Just referring specifically to the Parks rules?24 A. Rules and regulations?25 Q. Yes1 A. Okay.

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    2 Q. Is there anyone more knowledgeable than you?3 A. I would say so.4 Q. Who would that be?5 A. My commissioner.6 Q. Anybody else?

    7 A. No.8 Q. By commissioner, you mean 9 A. Commissioner Docket, who I directly report to.10 Q. At this time, I want to reintroduce Plantiffs11 Exhibit 11, the Parks rules.12 Sir, if you can just take a moment and review this13 handout, if you will.14 Mr. Reeves, do you recognize this as the 201015 revised Parks rules?16 A. Yes.17 Q. Is this the same version that you direct PEP

    18 officers to give out to the expressive matter vendors in the19 parks?20 MS. NEUFELD: Objection to the form.21 Q. You may answer.22 A. This is not what we give out to expressive matter23 vendors.24 Q. Right. Now Im going to reintroduce Plantiffs25 Exhibit number 121 Mr. Reeves, could you please review this document2 for a moment.3 A. Okay.

    4 Q. Is this the document that you give out to the5 expressive matter vendors in the parks?6 A. Yes.7 Q. What is the name of this documentary how is it8 commonly referred to?9 A. It is referred to as FAQ.10 Q. Are you familiar with Section 1-05 regulated issues11 of the Parks rules before the rule revision of 2010?12 A. Yes.13 Q. Are you familiar with the New York City vending14 laws contained in Title 20

    15 A. Some.16 Q. At this time, we are reintroducing Plaintiffs17 Exhibit number 13.18 Mr. Reeves, could you please review this for a19 moment and see if this is consistent with your knowledge of20 what Title 20 is?21. A. Yes, Im familiar with this.22 Q. So, as part of your duties, are you charged with

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    23 enforcing the Parks regulations as it applies to expressive24 matter vendors?25 A. In my position, I dont enforce them necessarily.1 Q. Or do you supervise the enforcement of the Park2 regulations as they apply to expressive matter vendors?

    3 A. Yes.4 Q. By expressive matter vendors, you artist vendors5 be included in that category?6 A. Yes7 Q. When we say expressive matter vendors, what other8 categories of vendors would you say there are besides artist?9 A. Besides that?10 Q. Yes.11 A. We have general vendors, we have veteran vendors,12 we have Parks concession vendors, we have legal vendors.13 Q. So, just to be clear, expressive matter vendors

    14 also include health vendors?15 A. No.16 Q. So, the categories you were giving me just now,17 would you say those are from a general vendor category18 instead?19 A. Yes.20 Q. Now, when we are talking about expressive matter21 vendors, only, other than artist, what other categories can22 you put into expressive matter?23 A. Trophy [sic], reading material, sculptors,24 musicians.

    25 Q. By reading material, what kind of vendors can you1 say specifically fit into the category of reading materials?2 A. Books, newspapers.3 Q. So, in other words, book vendors are expressive4 matter vendors, correct?5 A. Yes.6 Q. And newspaper vendors are expressive matter7 vendors, correct?8 A. Yes.9 Q. Have you had conversations with City officials10 regarding Park rules and enforcement of rules that regulate

    11 artist vendors in the park?12 A. What do you mean by that? I dont understand what13 youre looking for. Can you just repeat that.14 Q. Have you had conversations with City officials15 regarding the Parks rules and enforcement of the rules, as to16 the artist vendors?17 A. Within my agency, yes.18 Q. Have you discussed these matters with the Parks

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    19 Commissioner Benepe?20 A. No.21 Q. How about Mayor Bloomberg?22 A. No.23 Q. How about Parks Counsel?

    24 A. On occasion, we have cause to ask tem questions,25 yes.1 Q. And former Deputy Mayor Skyler?2 A. No.3 Q. Ray Brown?4 A. Yes5 Q. Jack Linn?6 A. Yes.7 Q. Assistant Commissioner Docket?8 A. Yes.9 Q. Kevin Jeffrey?

    10 A. Yes.11 Q. Henry Stern?12 A. No.13 Q. Former Mayor Giuliani?14 A. No.15 Q. Were there any other officials that you had have16 had conversations with that havent been mentioned regarding17 that artist vendors in the park?18 A. What title are you referring to?19 Q. Any City official.20 A. All of my captains, my deputy inspector, officers.

    21 Q. Have you any of these City officials asked for you22 input in formulating the Park policies towards the artist23 vendors?24 A. No.25 Q. And is it part of your duties to inform the public1 and the artists about the rules in the park?2 A. Im sorry, ask that question again.3 Q. Is it part of your duties to make sure that the4 public the artists are informed about the rules in the park?5 A. My directions are to make sure that the artists6 were notified.

    7 Q. And how were the artists notified of the Parks8 rules?9 A. Expressive matter rules?10 Q. Yes.11 A. Again, we went up and we gave them these FAQs.12 A. So, other than the FAQs, are there other documents13 that you give to the artists?14 A. No.

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    15 Q. So, going back to Plantiffs Exhibit 11, did you16 have any part in drafting these rules?17 A. No.18 Q. Did you have any part in advising on drafting these19 rules?

    20 A. No.21 Q. Were you consulted in any way before these rules22 were drafted?23 A. No.24 Q. When did you have knowledge that these rules were25 being drafted?1 A. You are talking again about expressive matter?2 Q. These particular rules right there.3 A. I dont remember the exact time they were4 distributed to us but they were distributed to us as part of5 our rules and regulations.

    6 Q. Once it was distributed to you, did you have any7 say in the rules?8 A. I dont understand what you mean by any say.9 This is given to me. This is what we enforce.10 Q. So, you didnt have any input as to advising on the11 rules or what you thought the rules would mean to the12 parties?13 A. No.14 Q. To the best of your knowledge, who drafted these15 rules?16 A. Im not really aware.

    17 Q. Prior to the revised rules being published, did you18 go to any meetings about them?19 A. About the expressive matter vendors?20 Q. Yes.21 A. Yes.22 Q. When was the first time that you can recall that23 you went to a meeting when the rules were discussed prior to24 them being published?25 A. I dont remember an exact date.1 Q. Do you remember how long before they were2 published? Was it a month, a few months?

    3 A. It was a few months.4 Q. To the best of your recollection, who else was in5 that meeting when the rules were being discussed prior to6 them being published?7 A. Myself, Commissioner Docket, Deputy Inspector8 Rodriguez, and director Ray Brown.9 Q. What is the Deputy Inspector Rodriguezs first name?10 A. Edwin.

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    11 Q. And this is the same Rodriguez with which you have12. day-to-day management in some other parks?13 A. Yes.14 Q. Did you ever have conversations about these15 results with Jennifer Falk?

    16 A. No.17 Q. Joshua David?18 A. I dont even know who that is, Im sorry.19 Q. Youre in charge of day-to-day operations at the20 High Line, correct?21 A. Actually Deputy Inspector Rodriguez oversees the22 High Line on a day-to-day basis.23 Q. Have you ever talked about these rules with Barry24 Price?25 A. Yes.1 Q. Doug Blonsky?

    2 A. No.3 Q. Danny Meyer?4 A. No.5 Q. Before you gave me the number of how many people6 you supervised.7 How many PEP officers are there in all?8 A. Right now there is about 100 and close to 130.9 Q. And there is a hiring freeze with PEP officers10 right now, correct?11 A. Yes.12 Q. And how long has the hiring freeze been in effect?

    13 A. Maybe about a year.14 Q. Before you testified that youre in charge of15 training?16 Have you seen Ray Browns Power Point presentation?17 A. Yes.18 Q. Do you recall whether there is an arrest video that19 is part of that presentation?20 A. No.21 Q. Specifically, is Robert Ledermans arrest video22 part of training the PEP officers23 A. I dont remember seeing that.

    24 Q. If I told you that PEP officers have been telling25 Mr. Lederman that his arrest is being used to train PEP1 officers, would that surprise you?2 A. Yes, it would.3 Q. And why is that?4 A. I have not seen it.5 Q. So, you testified youre not in charge of the6 day-to-day ops on the High Line but you are for Battery Park?

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    7 A. In my capacity, I oversee, as I said, the whole8 operation so I have individuals who are assigned on a9 day-to-day basis.10 Q. Right.11 A. For example, we have a captain who is assigned to

    12 the whole Manhattan South, who is directly supervising at13 Battery Park on a day-to-day basis.14 Q. And is the same true for the Union Square Park?15 A. Yes.16 Q. And what about Central Park?17 A. Yes.18 Q. So, why is the High Line a little bit different?19 MS. NEUFELD: Objection to the form.20 Q. You may answer.21 A. Its a contract park so usually we have someone in22 charge of the contract that is some type of higher capacity.

    23 Q. And by contract park, what do you mean by that?24 A. Normally contracted officers are normally funded25 privately.1 Q. Do you hold enforcement meetings on a regular2 basis?3 A. Yes.4 Q. How often?5 A. I have a meeting with my captain every two weeks.6 Q. And besides the captain meetings, are there other7 types of enforcement meetings?8 A. Yeah.

    9 Q. And what kind of enforcement or who would be in10 attendance of those regular meetings?11 A. It would depend what borough is involved, it would12 depend on what the issue is.13 Q. And since the revised Parks rules have gone into14 effect, has there been a change in your enforcement meetings?15 A. Repeat that question, please.16 Q. Since the revised rules of 2010 have gone into17 effect, have you had a change in your enforcement meetings?18 A. To explain, yes. To explain rules.19 Q. Before you testified that you didnt see the arrest

    20 video being used in training.21 Have you ever seen the arrest video?22 A. I have seen the arrest video, yes.23 Q. Where have you seen that arrest video?24 A. On Mr. Ledermans Web site.25 Q. Have you had any conversations about the arrest1 video with any other person within the Parks Department?2 A. I dont recall.

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    3 Q. But, its possible you have had conversations with4 other people about the arrest video, correct?5 A. I dont really recall.6 Q. Do you remember that Ray Brown testified about you7 and the video?

    8 A. No.9 Q. If I told you that Ray Brown testified that he10 ribbed you about the video, would you be surprised?11 A. Yes, I would be.12 Q. And why is that?13 A. Because I have not we didnt have that14 conversation.15 Q. Before you mentioned Seasonal City Associates, the16 CSA17 A. Yes.18 Q. What can you tell me about them

    19 A. They are hired on seasonal lines. They are more or20 less the eyes and ears for our department. They dont have21 any enforcement powers.22 Q. How are they solicited?23 A. How are they hired?24 Q. Yes.25 A. Usually we do a seasonal job posting.1 Q. Are there any special programs that you used to get2 CSAs, such as the POP program, the Park Opportunity Program?3 A. In some opportunities, yes, we pomote JTP, job4 training participants.

    5 Q. Who are these job training participants?6 A. People on public assistance.7 Q. Besides people who are on public assistance, are8 there any other population that are referred to these job9 training programs or the POP program?10 A. Repeat that question, Im sorry.11 Q. Aside from public assistance recipients, are there12 other populations that these programs are targeted, maybe13 helping the homeless get back on their feet, mentally ill14 people, developmental disability or to other populations?15 A. You are talking about programs that JTP has?

    16 Q. Yes.17 A. They have a number of programs.18 Q. To your knowledge, what are they?19 A. Counseling is one, job development, GED courses20 that are offered.21 Q. How are CSAs trained?22 A. They are trained in our academy?23 Q. For how long?

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    24 A. Normally it is a two-day training.25 Q. Mr. Ray Brown has testified that the CSAs are being1 deployed to help assist with the rule revision enforcement2 now that it has gone into effect, as well as the smoking3 bans.

    4 What can you tell me about that, was there5 deployment of the CSAs for these two issues?6 A. They are being deployed for some of the parks that7 expressive matter vendor regulation has gone into effect.8 Q. What are their roles in enforcing these rule9 revisions that have just gone into effect?10 A. Its basically for information reporting purposes.11 Q. By information reporting purposes, what exactly12 do you mean?13 A. For example, they are always given these FAQs to14 hand out. They can direct vendors to the proper locations.

    15 They answer some questions or get somebody who can answer the16 question.17 We are also monitoring because it is a first-come,18 first-served, we are trying to see that there is no abuse of19 that.20 Q. Speaking about the four parks where these rules21 have gone into effect, at what time do each of the parks open22 in the morning?23 A. Each park is a different every park opens at 624 A.M. except for the High Line. That opens at 7:00 A.M.25 Q. Now, the CSAs, are they also deployed to the High

    1 Line or is the High Line strictly private enforcement?2 A. There are full-time officers assigned to the High3 Line, but on some occasions, we have assigned CSAs.4 Q. Now, if the park is opening at 6 A.M. and its5 first-come, first-served.6 A. Yes.7 Q. And the expressive matter vendors are lining up8 along the entrances o come in to be able to get a spot, at9 what time do these CSAs have to report to duty in order to10 manage the line thats outside?11 A. We normally of them on post by 5:30 A.M.

    12 Q. And who does Parks enforcement overnight when the13 park is closed or when the parks are closed?14 A. We have an overnight unit.15 Q. And the overnight unit that is strictly PEP,16 correct?17 A. Yes.18 Q. Now, additional to the CSAs coming in at 5:30, are19 there any PEP officers also stationed at 5:30?

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    20 A. Yes.21 Q. About how many PEP officers are stationed at Union22 Square Park for the purposes of enforcing this rule?23 A. Normally one.24 Q. What about Central Park?

    25 A. You are talking about regular PEP now?1 Q. Regular PEP, yes.2 A. Usually about one or two.3 Q. And Battery Park?4 A. One.5 Q. As to the High Line, have there been any additional6 PEP officers assigned just to deal with the rule enforcement?7 A. No.8 Q. What other provisions have you made in order to9 enforce these rule revisions?10 A. Im not sure I dont understand what you are

    11 saying about provisions.12 Q. In order to enforce these rule provisions, what do13 you have do additionally that you didnt have to do before14 the rules were in effect?15 A. The tours are different and we could have them16 report to us every day, twice a day on the number of vendors,17 the number of open medallions available.18 We always posted some signs up around the parks19 regarding the regulations.20 Q. You say that they report twice a day on the number21 of vendors.

    22 Do you know around how many vendors have been23 counted in each of the parks since the rule revision has gone24 into effect or a ballpark? I know you dont know exactly.25 A. I know approximately how many are supposed to be in1 every park. It depends on the weather sometimes.2 Q. Exactly.3 A. We had a lot of rain this spring so many times4 there were no vendors or one or two.5 Q. Mr. Brown said that the PEP worked wit the artist6 so the artist can help police themselves.7 Can you elaborate on that a bit?

    8 MS. NEUFELD: Objection to the form.9 A. Im not sure what he means by working with.10 Q. Do you have a policy where artists are consulted11 about the rules or artists help or are enlisted in order to12 help enforce the rules?13 A. No.14 Q. Do you know Robert Lederman?15 A. Yes.

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    16 Q. What is your personal opinion of Robert Lederman17 and his advocacy?18 MS. NEUFELD: Objection to the form.19 Q. You may answer.20 A. I dont have an opinion on that.

    21 Q. Do you think hes crazy?22 MS. NEUFELD: Objection.23 Q. You may answer as to your personal opinion?24 A. Im not qualified to answer that question anyway, I25 dont think. Im not a doctor.1 Q. Have you ever heard anyone say that Robert Lederman2 is crazy or some term to that effect?3 A. No, I have not.4 Q. Regardless of whether you agree with his viewpoint,5 do you think that his views are rational?6 MS. NEUFELD: Objection to the form.

    7 Q. Its your personal opinion Im asking for.8 A. I dont understand what you mean by rational.9 Q. Let me back up for a second.10 Have you read his essays on his Web site or any of11 his writing?12 A. I have seen a few, yes.13 Q. And in your personal opinion, do you feel that his14 points are rational?15 MS. NEUFELD: Objection.16 A. He has some valid points.17 Q. Have you ever seen Robert Lederman arrested?

    18 A. Yes.19 Q. How many times approximately have you seen him20 arrested?21 A. About a dozen times.22 Q. Have you personally ever ordered his arrest?23 A. Yes.24 Q. About how many times?25 A. Half a dozen perhaps.1 Q. Has anyone ever ordered you to arrest Robert2 Lederman?3 A. Not me personally.

    4 Q. Has anyone ever directed you to order his arrest?5 A. Yes.6 Q. And who has directed you to order him to be7 arrested?8 A. Alex Brash.9 Q. And in what context was Mr. Brash order given?10 A. I was told that they had to be arrested.11 Q. In what context?

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    12 A. There was a protest going on at the time and if13 they didnt comply with what we had asked them, he was to be14 placed under arrest.15 Q. And by protestor, you are referring to the protest16 in front of the Met?

    17 A. Yes.18 Q. Do you know what year that was approximately?19 A. 1997 or 98, I believe.20 Q. Aside from Alex Brash ordering you to have Robert21 Lederman arrested at the protest, have there been any other22 times where you received another such order?23 A. Yes.24 Q. And what can you tell me about this?25 A. Again, I was asked to approach Mr. Lederman1 explain the rules, ask him to leave the premises. Actually2 give him thirty minutes to pack up and if he failed to

    3 comply, then asked to place him under arrest.4 Q. Where was that?5 A. That was on High Line.6 Q. How long ago was that?7 A. It was, I believe November or December 09.8 Q. Who asked you to approach Mr. Lederman?9 A. Commissioner Mike Docket.10 Q. And did anyone else ask you to approach11 Mr. Lederman?12 A. Commission Kevin Jeffrey.13 Q. And did anyone else ask you to approach

    14 Mr. Lederman?15 A. No.16 Q. When you were asked to approach Mr. Lederman, was17 this done in a meeting context?18 A. When I first went up to him, it was one of19 education. It was informing him that he was not authorized20 to vendor on the High Line.21 Q. What about when you were asked to approach22 Mr. Lederman, when you were asked, were you at a meeting at23 the time?24 A. When I was asked to approach him?

    25 Q. Right.1 A. The day or?2 Q. The first time that you were asked to approach3 Mr. Lederman on the High Line, were you in a meeting when you4 were asked to approach him?5 A. It was a phone conversation.6 Q. So, you received two different phone calls to7 approach Mr. Lederman?

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    8 A. No. I received one phone call to approach him from9 Commissioner Docket. But then I also was supposed to reach10 out to Commissioner Jeffrey.11 Q. So, you were directed by Mr. Docket to reach out to12 Mr. Jeffrey about the issue?

    13 A. On that particular day, yes.14 Q. How did you reach out to Mr. Jeffrey?15 A. I told him.16 Q. So, when you called Mr. Jeffrey, what did you tell17 him, to the best of your knowledge?18 A. I explained that Mr. Lederman was on the High Line19 Park and that he was vending arts.20 Q. What did Mr. Jeffrey say to you?21 MS. NEUFELD: This is again a whole line of 22 questioning about events that were settled, so I23 dont see where there is a relevance or a need to

    24 engage in questioning in this lawsuit. So, there25 is a point maybe we can speed up to the points on1 how it is relevant to this case, but the2 circumstances of that arrest are part of something3 that has been settled and are not in this lawsuit.4 MS. MILNER: Well, we have claims of 5 conspiracy and pretext and animus, so these are6 probative to these issues.7 MS. NEUFELD: Maybe you can speed up to the8 question of whether that arrest had anything to do9 with these rules if that is what you want to know.

    10 MS. MILNER: Well, it is brick by brick. You11 cant go from A to Z. Youve got to go through the12 letters.13 MS. NEUFELD: We can spend a couple of more14 minutes on it and if we need to call the court on15 it, we can but I dont want to spend a lot of time16 on something that was settled. So, the details of17 why there was an arrest have no relevance here.18 MS. MILNER: It is directly probative whether19 there was animus towards Robert Lederman.20 MS. NEUFELD: These questions are not asking

    21 about any animus to Robert Lederman. These22 questions are asking about details to an event that23 have shall resolved.24 MS. MILNER: That has been resolved, but the25 rules certainly have not been resolved.1 MS. NEUFELD: Then the question should pertain2 to that event and its relationship to the results,3 if any.

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    4 Q. To the best of your knowledge, did Robert5 Ledermans arrest on the High Line have anything to do with6 the rules being revised in 2010?7 A. No.8 Q. Why do you say that?

    9 A. My understanding here, he is authorized to sell10 art, but the High Line had specific rules at the time stating11 that no commercial activity without a permit.12 Q. Is the High Line a public park or a private park?13 A. It is a public park.14 Q. You say they had rules about no commercial activity15 at the time?16 A. Without a permit, yes.17 Q. You said that you directed the arrest of Robert18 Lederman about half a dozen times.19 Do you also remember about how many times either

    20 you summonsed him or had him summonsed?21 A. I dont recall. I dont know.22 Q. Have you ever discussed either Robert Lederman or a23 strategy with NYPD officials?24 A. Yes.25 Q. With whom can you remember discussing him with?1 A. Are you talking about the street artist?2 Q. The street artist or Robert Lederman specifically,3 either one?4 A. Any time these regulations go into effect, we5 always notify whatever precinct it pertains to.

    6 Q. How about Lieutenant Dan Albano?7 A. Yes.8 Q. How about with Commissioner Ray Kelly?9 A. No.10 Q. What conversations can you remember having with11 Lieutenant Albano?12 A. He is a lieutenant for the NYPD legal, so anytime13 we have a question about certain things, we discuss them and14 make sure that we are all on the same page.15 Q. Going back to the protest in front of the16 Metropolitan Museum of Art in 198, are you aware that

    17 Mr. Lederman, won his lawsuit around that issue.18 A. I was told that.19 Q. And what was the result of that lawsuit as it20 pertains to artists needing permits in the park.21 A. My understanding is that artists do not need22 permits to vend in the park.23 Q. Do you know why artists dont need permits for the24 park?

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    25 A. Protected under the First Amendment.1 Q. And that ruling applies within the jurisdiction of2 all New York City parks?3 A. Are you talking about before or now?4 Q. Im sorry, I didnt specify. Prior to the 2010

    5 rule revision, did that ruling apply to all New York City6 parks?7 MS. NEUFELD: Objection to the form.8 Q. You may answer.9 A. I believe so.10 Q. At any time that you have arrested Mr. Lederman or11 supervised his arrest or have been present while he was12 arrested, has he ever tried to explain his legal right to be13 there?14 A. Yes.15 Q. And did you believe that he was wrong about his

    16 legal rights?17 MS. NEUFELD: Objection to the form.18 Q. You may answer.19 A. I dont believe he was wrong about his rights.20 Q. If you didnt believe that he was wrong about his21 rights, why did you arrest him or allow him to be arrested?22 A. It was the circumstances.23 Q. What do you mean by circumstances?24 A. Which time are we referring to now?25 Q. Anytime.1 A. During the Metropolitan Museum, we were given

    2 orders that there was a large number of artists, both north3 and south of the museum and it was creating some congestion,4 I guess for the same are; it was an attempt to regulate the5 number of vendors. Not that they cant vend, but the number6 and locations of the vendors and the enforcement action was7 based upon that.8 Q. Do you remember what kind of violations9 Mr. Lederman was charged with at the Met protest?10 A. I dont remember exactly, no.11 Q. In your opinion, was Mr. Lederman ever targeted for12 false arrest?

    13 A. No.14 Q. To your knowledge, was Robert Lederman ever15 convicted of any of the charges that either you brought or16 were supervising to be brought?17 A. I dont have that knowledge.18 Q. Going back to the revised rules, were there memos19 being circulated between Parks Department officials about the20 rules, while they were being drafted?

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    21 A. Repeat that question, Im sorry.22 Q. While the rules were being drafted, do you recall23 memos being circulated within the Parks Department about the24 rules?25 A. I didnt see any.

    1 Q. Aside from the Parks Department, to the best of2 your knowledge, were there any other agencies who submitted3 materials in order to include their opinions in the revision4 of the rules?5 A. I didnt see any.6 Q. To the best of your knowledge, were any expressive7 matter vendors consulted in the drafting of the rules?8 A. I dont have any knowledge of that.9 MS. NEUFELD: Right now, we will go of the10 record for about five minutes for a short break.11 (Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.)

    12 MS.MILNER: Back on the record.13 Q. We are back on the record after a break.14 Mr. Reeves has something that he would like to correct from15 his previous testimony. Go ahead, sir.16 A. I mentioned that the High Line officers were17 privately funded. They were actually City funded.18 Q. At this time, Im going to reintroduce Plaintiffs19 Exhibits 1, 2 and 14. Please take a moment to review these20 documents, sir.21 Do you recognize these documents?22 A. I have seen this document. I have never seen this

    23 document.24 MS. NEUFELD: Can you identify it.25 A. Im sorry, I have seen Exhibit 1 and 2, and Exhibit1 14, I have not seen that.2 Q. So, lets just refer to Exhibits 1 and 2.3 A. Okay.4 Q. In what context have you seen 1 and 2?5 A. This was given out to our staff.6 Q. When was it given out to your staff?7 A. I dont remember the exact date.8 Q. Was this given out to your staff before or after

    9 the 2010 rule revision?10 A. Before.11 Q. Can we recall approximately how long before the12 rule revision this was given out?13 A. I really cant remember.14 Q. Do you think it was half a year or more?15 A. Before they went into effect July 10.16 Q. Yes.

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    17 A. It was before that time.18 Q. And what was the purpose of this memo?19 A. To try and clarify.20 Q. Clarify.21 A. What the regulations were for a vendor.

    22 Q. So, in other words, this memo, this memo clarifies23 the vending regulations that were already in place prior to24 the rules being revised in 2010?25 MS. NEUFELD: Objection to the form.1 A. This was a guideline given to our staff.2 Q. And is this guideline based upon the existing3 regulations at the time before the rule was revised in 2010?4 A. Yes.5 Q. To your knowledge, what regulations was this memo6 based upon?7 A. Administrative code, I believe Article 20.

    8 Q. Anything else?9 A. I cant remember.10 Q. Whom did this memo come from?11 A. Ray Brown.12 Q. To whom was it distributed?13 A. To myself and my captains.14 Q. Anybody else?

    15 A. This Im not sure about. I have seen this, I have16 this, but this was given 17 MS. NEUFELD: Describe which one.18 A. Exhibits 1 and 2, this was given to our captains

    19 and discussed with the sergeant and officers.20 Q. Mr. Reeves, under where it says to all concerned on21 Exhibit 2, could you please just read this paragraph starting22 with when and ending with the following.23 A. When dealing with vendors who are selling First24 Amendment protected items, see attached Police Department25 Operations Order number 39 dated 9/21/04 for description of1 such vendors, re the following.2 Q. To the best of your knowledge, is the Police3 Department Operations Order number 39 the same order that is4 Plaintiffs Exhibit 2?

    5 A. Its not the same, no.6 Q. In what way is it not the same?7 A. This discusses our Parks rules and regulations 8 MS. NEUFELD: I think he was confused because9 it says 1 and 2 on this name and he doesnt know10 what 1 is and what 2 is.11 Q. This is Exhibit 1, the first page and then when you12 turn the page, these two pages here are Exhibit 2.

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    13 A. Okay. Can you repeat the question again.14 Q. To the best of your knowledge, is Exhibit 2, which15 is on the next page and the following page, is that the same16 Police Department Operations Order number 39 dated 9/21/04 as17 referred to in the Brown directive?

    18 A. Yes.19 Q. Going back to Exhibit 1, where it has the A035620 RCNY 1-03 and 04 and 05, can you tell me what failure to21 comply with directives of officers/park employees means?22 A. It seems self-explanatory but the would give him23 or her a directive, something to relocated, or whatever it24 may be. Most of the time, it would be like to relocated to a25 different place or you can be in this location.1 Q. And under what circumstances would you tell an2 expressive matter vendor to relocate?3 A. If they were in non-compliance with one of the

    4 other regulations.5 Q. What about if they are in compliance with the6 regulations, is there any circumstance where you could still7 tell them to relocate?8 A. There are always circumstances that would come up,9 yes.10 Q. Can you give us some examples of the type of11 circumstances?12 A. An example, parades might be in that area during13 the course of the day, maybe a protest, maybe some type of14 emergency situation where you have to get the Fire Department

    15 or EMS into an area.16 Q. Where you are referring to parades and protests and17 emergency, is there a regulation that allows you to move a18 vendor pursuant to those types of situations?19 A. There is something called exigent circumstances.20. Q. Do you know where that is located in terms of the21 rules?22 A. I cant remember. I know where it is but I just23 can remember, Im sorry.24 Q. If I told you that it is located within Title 20,25 would that makes sense?

    1 A. Yes.2 Q. So, pursuant to Title 20, PEP officers could have3 EMVs or expressive matter vendors removed because of exigent4 circumstances, correct?5 A. We dont actually enforce an Article 20. So, for6 us that is more or less used as guideline.7 Q. Who does the enforcement of Title 20 or Article 20?8 A. I guess that Police Department does.

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    9 Q. So, if there is a parade, a protest or an emergency10 and you need to have the EMVs removed, do you have to call11 the police first to invoked exigent circumstances?12 MS. NEUFELD: Objection to the form.13 Q. You may answer.

    14 A. No.15 Q. So, if there is a parade, or a protest or an16 emergency, then the PEP officers may instruct the EMVs to17 remove from that area without the NYPD being there, correct?18 A. Yes.19 Q. So, by saying that the PEP does not enforce Title20 20, is it fair to say that you can still use Title 20 in such21 a situation where there is an emergency, parade or protest22 but the enforcement would come from failure to comply?23 A. Yes.24 Q. Prior to the rule revision going into effect could

    25 EMVs, expressive matter vendors, just set up wherever they1 wanted to in any park?2 A. No.3 Q. Why is that?4 A. Again, they would have to abide by certain5 guidelines.6 Q. By guidelines, what do you mean?7 A. Something that we create as a safety hazard,8 something like that.9 Q. So, by guidelines to prevent a safety, Im sorry,10 tell me what you said again. I lost it.

    11 A. Safety hazard.12 Q. A safety hazard. So, prior to the rule revision13 going into effect in 2010, there were guidelines to prevent14 safety hazards, correct?15 MS. NEUFELD: Objection to the form.16 A. There are guidelines where people can be.17 Q. And by safety hazards, do you also mean congestion?18 A. That would be one.19 Q. And were these guidelines sufficient in order to20 protect the public from safety hazards?21 A. That is what they were intended for, I believe.

    22 Q. So, are there an safety hazards that you can think23 of that the pre-2010 rules Im sorry, before the rule24 revisions went into effect in 2010, the rules at that time,25 do you believe they were sufficient to protect the public1 safety?2 A. Yes.3 Q. If the rules at the time were sufficient to4 protect the public safety, why do you think it was necessary

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    5 to revise the rules in 2010?6 A. Safety wasnt the only reason, but there was for7 several reasons that it went no effect. The name of vendors,8 Im sorry, the number of vendors in certain areas kept9 growing, and growing, and growing, and we have so much

    10 activity going on in certain parks, in certain locations that11 it was just matter of really balancing all of the needs of12 everyone.13 Q. And by number of vendors growing, and growing, and14 growing, are you referring to all vendors or are you15 referring to the expressive matter vendors specifically?16 A. Weve seen an increase in vending.17 Q. And by vending, do you mean all vending?18 A. Yes.19 Q. When we are talking about all vendors, we have20 expressive matter vendors which is a type of vendor?

    21 A. Right.22 Q. You also mentioned a legal vendor, was the term you23 used or an authorized vendor.24 What other kind of vendors are there?25 A. Veteran vendors, Parks concession vendors.1 Q. Anything else?2 A. There are food vendors.3 Q. Any other kind of vending that you can think of?4 A. I believe that covers them all.5 Q. The green markets, in which category would that6 fall into?

    7 A. Concession.8 Q. What about the holiday markets?9 A. The same.10 Q. When you say that the number of vendors keeps11 growing and growing and growing, do the veteran vendors, have12 their numbers grown?13 A. Yes, we have seen an increase, yes.14 Q. What about the concessions?15 A. Before this went into effect, after?16 Q. Yes.17 A. Before this went into effect?

    18 Q. Yes.19 A. Yes.20 Q. What about the food vendors?21 A. The legal or illegal?22 Q. All food vendors?23 A. Again, I have seen an increase in vending.24 Q. And what about the unauthorized vendors?25 A. Some locations, there have been increase, yes.

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    1 Q. Now, out of all the categories of vendors, which2 type of vendor would you say is growing the largest?3 A. It is difficult to say. Every park has different.4 Q. Lets say Union Square Park, which type of vendor5 would you say in Union Square Park has been growing or

    6 increasing in numbers?7 A. During which period?8 Q. Prior to the rule revision?9 A. I believe we have seen more expressive matter10 vendors there.11 Q. And what about Battery Park?12 A. The same.13 Q. And what about Central Park?14 A. Yes.15 Q. And what about the High Line?16 A. The High Line, we really didnt have too much prior

    17 to this going into effect. There has just recently been18 vendors.19 Q. So, prior to the rule revision of 2010, there was20 not a vendor problem on the High Line.21 A. Again, the High Line is different because they had22 a rule in effect in June of 09. I believe it might have23 been no commercial activity without a permit.24 Q. You said the High Line was different because it had25 a rule about no commercial activities without a permit.1 A. Yes.2 Q. Dont all the parks have that rule?

    3 A. Im not sure. No vending without a permit?4 Q. Right.5 A. Okay.6 Q. So, there are some vendors who dont need a permit7 to vend?8 A. Right.9 Q. The expressive matter vendors, is some, why is it10 that the expressive matter vendors are exempted from the11 Parks permit requirements?12 A. Why they are exempt?13 Q. Right.

    14 A. To operate without a permit?15 Q. Yes.16 A. They are covered under the First Amendment.17 Q. What about the written matter exemption?18 A. The same thing, covered under the First Amendment.19 Q. So, if the written matter exemption or the First20 Amendment allows exempted matter vendors to vend in any park,21 why is the High Line different?

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    22 A. The explanation that was given to me is that the23 High Line was different in that it is a unique type of park,24 elevated, of course. It is also the only park that we have a25 capacity determined by the Fire Department.1 Q. Is it your personal opinion that the First

    2 Amendment should equally apply to the High Line Park?3 MS. NEUFELD: Objection to the form.4 Q. You may answer.5 A. Again, there are circumstances where someone has a6 right to do something; however, if it is problematic or7 causes an issue, then that will be the same as any other8 park.9 Q. What are the main differences between the revised10 rules of 2010 and the existing rules as reflected in the11 Brown directive?12 MS. NEUFELD: Objection to the form.

    13 Q. You may answer.14 A. The new rules?15 Q. Yes.16 A. The new rules require that the expressive matter17 vendors be in designated locations.18 Q. And by designated locations, are you referring to19 medallions?20 A. Yes.21 Q. What other differences can you tell us about?22 A. Then we have work enforcing the hours of operation.23 Enforcing the first-come, first-served as I mentioned before,

    24 and trying to be consistent with every vendor now where they25 have to have certain tables at a certain length, tablecloths1 covering the items underneath.2 Q. Wasnt the size of the dimensions of the tables and3 covering up the items underneath, wasnt that the existing4 law before?5 A. The table length was, but now because you have6 medallions, you have to be in a more specific location. So,7 if you have had an eight-foot table before, your eight-foot8 table could have been anywhere. It could have been too close9 to a tree, it would have been too close to a bench perhaps,

    10 but now it specifies the length it should be. It wasnt11 specific before, really.12 Q. And is there something in the new rules about13 distances from a monument?14 A. Yes, there is.15 Q. How far do you have to be near a monument?16 A. Im embarrassed, I dont remember.17 Q. If I said fifty feet, does that sound about right?

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    18 A. Yes.19 Q. Before we talked about newspaper vendors being EMV s20 or expressive matter vendors, does that mean that newspaper21 vendors selling from a portable stand are exempted from the22 Park permits?

    23 A. Right now, they have to be on a medallion.24 Q. So, to your knowledge, how many newspaper vendors25 are using the medallions in the park since the medallions1 have gone into effect?2 A. I have no seen any.3 Q. So, to your knowledge, are there no newspaper4 vendors in the park since the new rules have gone into5 effect?6 A. Newspaper vendors, I havent seen any persons7 vending.8 Q. So, if a newspaper vendor is not on a medallion,

    9 but they are vending in the park, is it fair to say that they10 would be unauthorized vendors at that point?11 A. They would be vending in other than a designated12 area, yes.13 Q. If the newspaper vendor is vending in an14 unauthorized area, what enforcement mechanisms would be taken15 to correct the situation?16 A. The first thing we would do, we would inform him or17 her, and try to direct them to a designated location.18 Q. If they do not comply with the first two?19 A. They would receive a summons.

    20 Q. If they receive a summons and still dont comply?21 A. They would either receive a second summons or you22 can be taken to the precinct.23 Q. How many newspaper vendors have been arrested since24 the rules have gone into effect?25 A. Im not aware of any.1 Q. How many newspaper vendors have received summonses2 since the new rules have gone into effect?3. A. Im not aware.4 Q. What about newspaper vendors who are giving away5 free papers, do they have to be in a marked spot?

    6 A. They are not vending.7 Q. What about if artist vendors are displaying without8 vending, do they have to be in the marked spots?9 A. Yes.10 Q. Why is that the artist vendors have to be in marked11 spots but newspaper vendors giving away free newspapers do12 not have to be in the marked spots?13 A. I actually have something here. We have something.

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    14 We could have a directive that came down again from Ray Brown15 that said they could not, subject to summonses they were16 displaying.17 MS. MILNER: At this time, we are going to18 introduce Plaintiffs Exhibit 17.

    19 (Whereupon, the aforementioned document20 entitled Summons Narratives was marked as21 Plaintiffs Exhibit 17 for identification as of22 this date by the Reporter.)23 Q. Do you recognize this document?24 A. Yes.25 Q. Did you write this?1 A. No.2 Q. Who wrote it?3 A. Ray Brown.4 Q. And did Ray Brown e-mail this to you?

    5 A. I dont remember how I received it.6 Q. Do you remember how you received it?7 A. Not the exact time but it came out when we were8 discussing the expressive matter vending.9 Q. Was this before or after the rule revisions went10 into effect?11 A. This is about the same time.12 Q. Can I please direct your attention to page 2 of13 this exhibit. I want to you look at the paragraph that is14 labeled Display Not for Sale, Unlawful Vending and can you15 please read what it says starting at A/T/P/O and ending with

    16 section.17 A. A/T/P/O I did observe the respondent vending18 expressive matter in an unauthorized area and not in a19 designated spot as defined by New York City Parks rules and20 regulation, Section 1-05, subsection b, subsection 3,21 parenthesis, so-and-so.22 Q. And what does, A/T/P/O mean for the record?23 A. At the time and place of occurrence.24 Q. And the section you just read, is it fair to say25 that this is what the PEP officers are being told to put when1 they are writing their summonses?

    2 A. These are examples of narratives they can use on3 their summonses.4 Q. And this reference to display reference; but yet,5 in the body of the narrative, it says I did observe the6 respondent vending expressive matter.7 Can you please explain why the PEP officers are8 being told to write that they observed the respondent vending9 expressive matter, when its display and not for sale?

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    10 A. Yes, that question came up quite often. A couple11 of things.12 First of all, they were in the park with whatever13 I is they may have been selling, art or sculpture or14 whatever it may be at the time. I do not know on a number of

    15 occasions that even though it said that, because we actually16 have, I have heard and we tape-recorded individuals still17 conducting transactions, even though it said that or18 referring to other locations where someone was vending.19 If they, for example, were not vending themselves,20 they would say I cant tell this to you, but if you go to the21 corner of so-and-so, they will sell you the same photo or22 picture, and I personally heard that on occasions.23 Q. In the circumstance where there is a transaction24 going on, would that note be display for sale instead of25 display reference?

    1 A. I think they are just using that display again2 because that is what they had on the sign above there, using3 it as an example. Are they till vending in the narrative4 but that is for people that specifically had display-only on5 their carts or table or whatever it may be.6 Q. So, somebody has a sign display not for sale, but7 they are having transactions anyway, why would that be a8 separate category; why wouldnt that just be unauthorized9 vending?10 A. It would be and I think it still falls into the11 same category as unlawful vending. If you look at number two

    12 on the top, the first one above that, its just again to make13 our people aware that even though they say that, and in some14 cases again, it was actually, in fact, going on.15 Q. But, youve testified that artists that display16 without selling still have to be in the medallion spots?17 A. Im sorry, say that again. Im sorry.18 Q. You testified that artists who were displaying19 without selling, still have to be in the medallion spots?20 A. Yes, we instructed that, yes.21 Q. Why is that?22 A. We instructed because if they have something set up

    23 like that we were told, that most likely, they were going to24 be selling.25 Q. What about an artist who is displaying their works1 and not selling?2 A. Based on again my directions what I have been told3 and I think this has been checked through channels, they are4 supposed to be in a designated spot.5 Q. So, because an artist might be selling their work

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    6 when they are displaying, they have to be in medallions?7 A. That is my understanding of it.8 Q. What about newspaper vendors giving their papers9 away for free, might they be selling their newspapers at some10 point?

    11 A. I have no observed that. I have AM, Metro.12 Q. So, if the newspaper vendors are giving away their13 newspapers, are not the newspapers 14 A. They are actually saying free newspaper, I heard15 them say free AM, or New York or Metro. I heard them say16 free several times.17 Q. So, even though the newspapers are free to18 consumers, are not the newspapers themselves garnishing a19 large revenue from advertising?20 A. I dont work in that area. That is not my area of21 expertise.

    22 Q. How would you distinguish between a newspaper23 giving away free newspapers and an artist displaying24 without selling?25 A. Again the artist the newspaper, lets go back1 to the newspaper vendor. The newspaper vendor, again if it2 be AM or Metro free newspapers, are giving them out, on other3 times we have seen the people that have displays, they are4 out there all day and someone asks to buy a picture or5 something like that, we have seen the transactions. We have6 seen them do it. They are also taking up more space than7 somebody with a stand and newspapers.

    8 Q. What about if an artist is standing without a table9 and giving away free art, would they still have to be in the10 medallion?11 A. If they are mobile. That is one of the expressive12 things as well. They are allowed to be mobile. They13 cant stop for long.14 Q. What if they had a stand, could an artist with a15 stand give away free art without being in the medallions?16 A. My directives I have been told that if someone has17 art in the park or has a setup that, it is my directive that18 they have to be on a designated spot.

    19 Q. In your professional and personal opinion, do you20 think that is correct?21 A. Again, Im going to tell you based on my22 observations, that no one is staying out there for eight23 hours a day in it, they are making money and selling art.24 Q. So, since the rule revision has gone into effect,25 you havent seen news vendors standing in the medallion, you1 dont recall whether there have been summonses or arrests, is

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    2 that to say that there are no newspaper vendors in the parks3 anymore?4 A. In these designated spots, I personally have not5 seen them and I have not seen any summonses being issued for6 them.

    7 Q. Have you seen newspaper vendors selling in Union8 Square Park near the subway entrance near the south plaza?9 A. Recently or at what time?10 Q. At any time?11 A. Yes.12 Q. What about since the rules have gone into effect?13 A. We have not seen them.14 Q. Have you seen chess players in any of the four15 effective parks?16 A. Yes17 Q. When you have seen these chess players, what have

    18 you observed?19 A. They were playing chess.20 Q. Have you ever observed gambling along with the21 chess playing?22 A. No.23 Q. Have you observed crowds of people standing around24 watching chess games?25 A. I never observed crowds.1 Q. Have you observed onlookers, looking onto the chess2 games?3 A. A few.

    4 Q. And why would you think that people would watch a5 game of chess?6 A. I find myself interested in certain sports or7 activities, I gravitate to the activity.8 Q. So, has anyone ever complained to you that there9 are chess gambling operations set up in Union Square Park?10 A. Has someone complained to me about chess gambling?11 Q. Yes.12 A. No, not to me.13 Q. Have you ever heard that there could be chess14 gambling in the park?

    15 A. No.16 Q. And by 17 A. I actually approached, spoke to the chess players18 in the park.19 Q. And tell me what was said in those conversations?20 A. Well, when I approached the chess player, he was21 actually too close to the entrance of the subway so I22 actually asked them to move.

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    23 Q. Did they comply?24 A. Yes, and we engaged in some conversations. We have25 been playing chess for years and he is teaching others in the1 park how to play.2 Q. Do you know whether there are 20 or more people

    3 observing these chess games at any one time?4 A. I havent seen it.5 Q. If there were 20 or more, isnt it true that they6 would need a permit for exhibition?7 A. Anyone who engages activity with more than 208 individual is supposed to get a permit, yes.9 Q. So, if someone is in the park painting a picture10 and 20 people gather around to see what they are doing, would11 they need an exhibition permit for that?12 A. I have to honest, it is very discretionary.13 Because maybe there are 20 people there for a minute and then

    14 they move on, someone else comes. It is not continuous.15 Q. Going back to Plaintiffs Exhibit 17, the summons16 narratives on page 2.17 Right under display reference, there is a section18 that says Performance Artists.19 A. Yes.20 Q. Can you read starting from A/T/P/O and ending with21 the section?22 A. A/T/P/O, I did observe the respondent an23 expressive matter vendor, blank, and then it says what I24 pertains to, solicit and accept donation in an unauthorized

    25 area and not in a designated spot as defined by the New York1 City Park rules and regulations and then Section 1-05.2 Q. There are some bullets.3 Can you read that, please.4 A. There are costumed, dressed in, playing a musical5 instrument, shaping balloons, face painting.6 Q. So, performance artists are subject to the7 medallions, correct?8 A. Yes. After these regulations went into effect.9 Q. After the regulations. Now, if there is a10 performance artist who is not soliciting or accepting funds,

    11 can they go anywhere within the park?12 A. They are just playing an instrument? Playing a13 guitar or something like?14 Q. Right.15 A. If they are not in any type of solicitation, if16 there is no pat-down, no sign, there is nothing like that,17 yes, they can.18 Q. Why is it that performance artists did perform

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    19 without soliciting or accepting donations or having a20 transaction of any kind, but yet an artist cannot display21 their work?22 MS. NEUFELD: Objection to the form.23 Q. You may answer.

    24 A. Can you repeat your question again.25 Q. Why is it that performance artists can perform1 without being on a medallion if there is no cash transaction.2 solicitations or donations but yet an artist cannot display3 for sale only with no transactions.4 A. Again, I have seen artists with the guitar case5 open or something of that nature accepting donations. I6 havent seen artists playing without an open case.7 If they are there all day, again they are accepting8 donations, they are collecting money.9 Q. So, if somebody is just playing the guitar, are you

    10 going to ask them to move to a medallion spot?11 A. If they are just playing a guitar for a short12 period of time, I would not ask them to go to a designated13 spot.14 Q. If someone is playing a guitar for two hours, would15 you have them move to a medallion spot?16 A. Again, if they are not soliciting, no.17 Q. If an artist was displaying their art for two18 hours, and you didnt observe any kind of transaction going19 on, would you still have that artist move into a medallion20 spot?

    21 A. Are they mobile, do they have a table set up?22 Q. With a display set up?23 A. That again is one of the differences. If they have24 a table set up, they are occupying space for somebody who25 is either mobile or one person playing a guitar is not taking1 up the same space.2 Q. Lets suppose there are a group of people playing3 instruments.4 Would they have to be moved to a medallion space?5 A. If they were soliciting, yes.6 Q. Suppose they are a group of people playing

    7 instruments in the park and they were not soliciting, would8 they be moved to a local space/9 A. Yes. Again if you are holding them to the same10 category, taking up more than the allotted space, we have had11 that situation.12 Q. So, are you aware of any group of musicians who13 were moved to a medallion space?14 A. They have been instructed to.

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    15 Q. And did they comply?16 A. In most cases, yes.17 Q. If Robert Lederman set up a political18 anti-Bloomberg display in the park, would he be asked to move19 to a medallion?

    20 A. Political, so it is still expressive matter.21 Political is still expressive matter.22 Q. If Robert Lederman was preaching about Jesus and23 handed out religious materials in Union Square Park, would he24 still have to move to a medallion?25 A. If he is moving around handing out literature, no,1 he would not have to.2 Q. What about f he had a display?3 A. If he had a table set up?4 Q. Yes.5 A. Just giving out information?

    6 Q. If Robert Lederman has a religious display7 preaching about Jesus and giving out copies of the bible,8 would he be asked to move to a medallion spot?9 A. Right now, yes, he would.10 Q. And why is that?11 A. He is taking up space.12 Q. So, to your knowledge, how many political13 display-only EMVs are occupying the medallion spots in any14 given day?15 A. Say that again.16 Q. To your knowledge, in any given day, how many

    17 medallion spots are occupied by political display-only EMVs?18 A. I have not seen any since they went back into19 effect.20 Q. What about religious displays only?21 A. I have not seen any recently.22 Q. To your knowledge, who are occupying the medallion23 spots on a day-to-day basis?24 A. Expressive matter vendors.25 Q. And by expressive matter vendors, who are you1 referring to?2 A. Artists, photographers, book vendors.

    3 Q. So, how many of the medallion spots each day are4 occupied by photographers?5 A. I dont know. Each day could be different.6 Q. Have you ever known a photographer to occupy one of7 the medallion spots?8 A. Yes.9 Q. Have you ever known a book vendor to occupy one of10 the medallion spots?

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    11 A. Yes.12 Q. And of all the medallion spots, what percent13 would you say are occupied by artists on a given day?14 A. In comparison to the book vendor, a majority.15 Q. Why do you think that artists are occupying a

    16 majority of the spots?17 A. I couldnt answer that question.18 Q. How many performance artists occupied the spots in19 any given day?20 A. I guess that depends on the park.21 Q. In Union Square Park?22 A. Im not really aware of anybody in Union Square23 Park.24 Q. What about Central Park?25 A. Central Park, we could have a few.1 Q. Battery Park?

    2 A. We actually have the Statue of Liberty individuals3 who are considered expressive matter.4 Q. What about the High Line?5 A. They are mostly artists but last week, there was6 actually a book vendor there, I approached him.7 Q. And to your knowledge, do the performers usually8 generate a large crowd of onlookers?9 A. It depends.10 Q. Would a good performer generate more then 2011 people?12 A. It could.

    13 Q. Have you ever known a good performer to generate14 more than a hundred?15 A. I think that is too high a number.16 Q. Have you ever known a good performer to cause17 congestion?18 A. Performance group, yes.19 Q. So, if you ha a large performance group on a20 medallion with a large crowd gathered, how much space would21 you say you would need in order to ensure the public22 safety?23 MS. NEUFELD: Objection to the form.

    24 Q. If you have a group of performers would are25 occupying, lets say, any medallion in any park, and they are1 good performers, large crowd?2 A. Okay.3 Q. So, approximately how much space would you need in4 order to ensure the public safety?5 A. You are supposed to have space for obviously the6 people to walk back and forth. You are supposed to have a

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    7 ten-foot distance from medallion to curb or whatever8 structure might be there.9 Q. And to your knowledge, is a ten-foot space10 sufficient for a group of performers who were really good and11 attracting a large crowd of people?

    12 A. Im sorry, say that again.13 Q. To your knowledge 14 A. That is the allotted space, are you asking me if15 that is enough space?16 Q. Right.17 A. It is not enough space, but you still have to keep18 the flow of pedestrian traffic moving.19 Q. Suppose you have a large group of performers on the20 medallion space, they are somewhere; there is a huge crowd,21 what are you going to do to ensure the public safety, when22 the ten feet is not enough?

    23 A. We do approach them and ask them to have the crowd24 actually move. We approach the individuals.25 Q. And what if the crowd doesnt comply?1 A. Then that group should be summonsed.2 Q. And what about the performance artists, if they are3 given a good-faith effort to move the crowd and the crowd4 doesnt comply, what would you do?5 A. It depends. Sometimes the crowd will listen and we6 will shut them down if they dont.7 Q. What about the artists that are adjacent to these8 medallion spots, when there is a huge crowd coming in for the

    9 performance artists, does this not foreclose artists from10 displaying their work?11 A. So you are talking about if they have a table here,12 where they go in front of the table next to them. They13 could.14 Q. Right, so if you have a group of performance15 artists in one spot and they are so good that they are16 attracting a huge crowd, is that not unfair to the artists17 who were adjacent on either side who cannot now display their18 art to people who might to see their art?19 A. I havent seen that scenario that you are bringing

    20 up but we will try our best to keep the crowd moving so the21 artists would have an opportunity to vend in that22 location.23 MS. MILNER: At this time, we will take a24 break.25 (Whereupon, a lunch recess was taken.)12 AFTERNOON SESSION

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    34 MS. MILNER: We are back on the record after5 lunch.6 Q. Mr. Reeves, you are still under oath. I would like7 to ask you about whether it is legal to sleep in any of the

    8 New York City parks?9 A. No. Well, overnight.10 Q. Thank you for clarifying that.11 A. Yes.12 Q. So, if you find someone sleeping in the parks13 overnight while the parks are closed, what kind of14 enforcement is that?15 A. You can issue them a summons, ask them to just16 leave the park.17 Q. Would say there is a problem of homeless people18 sleeping in the parks overnight?

    19 A. We have homeless that stay in some parks overnight.20 Q. Would you say that the summonses have been dealing21 with that problem effectively?22 A. It is not always summonsing. We work pretty23 closely with DHS on a regular basis, Department of Homeless24 Services. Sometimes repeat offenders would be summons.25 Sometimes the homeless outreach will be contacted.1 Q. What is it that the Department of Homeless Services2 do in order to combat the problem of the homeless in the3 parks?4 A. They provide them with different programs.

    5 Q. And has the effort with the DHS been successful to6 reduce the number of homeless in the parks sleeping7 overnight?8 A. Yes.9 Q. And do you recall around two weeks ago that there10 was a big news release that there were 193 people arrested11 for criminal activity in Union Square Park?12 A. Say that question again, a newspaper article?13 Q. Yes. There was an article.14 A. I havent seen it.15 Q. Are you aware there was a sweep to remove criminals

    16 from the Union Square Park?17 A. No.18 Q. So, if you are in charge with citywide enforcement,19 why wouldnt you know if NYPD is going to do a sweep in one20 of our parks?21 A. They dont always give us that information. They22 dont have to provide it to us.23 Q. To the best of your knowledge, is there substantial

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    24 criminal activity going on in any of the four affected parks?25 A. What do you mean?1 Q. To the best of your knowledge, is there criminal2 activity going on in any of the four parks, the four affected3 parks?

    4 A. Define criminal activity. Im not sure.5 Q. To the best of your knowledge, are there illegal6 activities going on in the four affected parks?7 A. At any given time in any park that can occur.8 Q. What types of illegal activities would you say are9 going on in Union Square Park on an ongoing basis?10 A. there is a homeless issue. There is illegal11 vending. There has been alcohol consumption. Drug use.12 Q. How about prostitution?13 A. Im not aware of that in the park.14 Q.

    15 A. We wont deal with that anyway. That is a NYPD16 issue.17 Q. What about gambling?18 A. Not that Im aware.19 Q. So, are you aware of any complains of criminal20 activity going on in one of the four affected parks?21 A. Yes.22 Q. Have any of the artist ever made complaints23 regarding criminal activity in one of the four affected24 parks?25 A. Not to myself.

    1 Q. Let me ask you about corporate promotions. Now,2 the large-scale corporate promotions, I understand that they3 require a permit, right?4 A. Yes.5 Q. But there is other kind of smaller scale were there6 might be having a mini-promotion event, like maybe a giveaway7 in order to promote a larger event; is that true?8 A. Yes.9 Q. And these mini pre-event promotions, are they10 required to have a permit to do these?11 A. Normally, the work through our marketing division.

    12 Q. They work through marketing?13 A. Yes.14 Q. Suppose you came across a corporate mini promotion15 that didnt go through marketing or didnt have some kind of16 permit, would you that enforcement action against them?17 A. I would check to see if they had a permit.18 Q. And lets suppose, lets say Target, lets say19 Target was doing a mini promotion in giving away free five

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    20 dollar Target cards, would you take any enforcement action21 against Target, if they are no violating any other rules22 other than having a display stand?23 A. I would check with our Counsels office probably to24 make sure.

    25 Q. Suppose Citibank set up a small stand and was1 giving away free key chains and they didnt have a permit,2 what would you do?3 A. Again, we will actually, with all these situations,4 we will make sure they are still in compliance with the rules5 and regulations of the park.6 Q. And if one of these corporate mini promotions7 didnt have a permit, would they be asked to move to one of8 the medallion spots?9 A. No.10 Q. Why is that?

    11 A. They are not vending. They are giving away things.12 Q. So, if Robert Lederman is giving away art in the13 same manner that one of these pre-event promotions are giving14 away key chains or gift cards, would Robert Lederman be asked15 to move into a spot?16 A. Strictly giving away?17 Q. Strictly giving away.18 A. No.19 Q. If Robert Lederman had a stand where he was20 strictly giving away his art, would he be asked to move into21 a medallion spot?

    22 A. Strictly giving away?23 Q. Strictly giving away.24 A. I would say no.25 Q. So, if Robert Lederman set up tomorrow in Union1 Square Park with the stand that says display only and hes2 handing out his art, what would happen to him?3 A. And he is in compliance 4 Q. He is in compliance with all other Parks rules?5 Only hes not in a medallion spot, he is in where a corporate6 pre-event promotion would be?7 A. I would just check on that. I wouldnt take any

    8 action against him until I checked.9 Q. I would like to go back to Plaintiffs Exhibit 17.10 That is the summons narrative.11 A. Yes.12 Q. I would like to turn to the second page.13 A. Okay.14 Q. I would like to redirect your attention to display15 reference

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    16 A. Okay.17 Q. Earlier you testified that if an artist displays18 their art but even if theres no transaction whatsoever, they19 are still going to be asked to go to the medallion spots,20 correct?

    21 A. Thats what I said. I don remember exactly what22 that question was or what my answer might have been.23 Q. But, now youre testifying that if Robert Lederman24 set up in the exact same spot where these corporate25 promotions are going on in order to give away his art and not1 have a transaction, youre saying that no enforcement would2 take place against that?3 A. You are asking me again. Again, this was intended4 as I mentioned before, even though it says display reference,5 when we had individuals that were at a table stating this, we6 observed transactions as I mentioned before or was directed

    7 to go someplace to do the transaction. That was the purpose8 behind that. He is actually just handing stuff out as you9 say, no other violations, just handing stuff out?10 Q. Yes.11 A. I would check but I would probably have to allow12 it, if he was not obstructing anything.13 Q. By check, with whom would you check?14 A. My proper chain of command, would let me15 commissioner know, I would probably check with Counsels office.17 Q. I would like to redirect your attention to this18 last paragraph under Mobile Expressive Matter Vendors.

    19 Would you read that?20 A. A/T/P/O did observe the respondent, it is21 probably a typographical error there, I did observe the22 the respondent vending expressive matter in an unauthorized area23 and not a designated spot as defined by the New York City24 Parks Rules and Regulations Section 1-05, subsection b,25 subsection 3, subsection iii. This vendor occupied this1 location longer than necessary to conduct a transaction as a2 mobile vendor as defined by the New York City Parks Rules and3 Regulations Section 1-05, subsection b, subsection 2.4 Q. Let me ask you about longer than necessary.

    5 How long is longer than necessary?6 A. My understanding is just normal to make the7 transaction.8 Q. And by long enough to make the transaction, how9 long does it take to make a transaction?10 A. I dont know if you want to put a specific time on11 there. Im sure there would be a discussion about the price,12 probably some back and forth on it; once the money exchanged

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    13 hands and the vendor handed the merchandise to the person.14 Q. So, if we dont put a time frame on it, how would15 someone doing an enforcement know how long is longer than16 necessary?17 A. You can tell. You can tell I have been in

    18 situations where someone has been standing there for 1519 minutes, 20 minutes. Sometimes there is not even a crowd20 there. They are just sort of standing there.21 Q. You have been with the Parks Department a long22 time?23 A. Yes.24 Q. So, I believe you one hundred percent when you say25 you can tell.1 What about a new PEP officer coming on, how are2 they going to be able to tell?3 A. They are all given training. Some is

    4 discretionary. I do admit some is discretionary but again5 the transaction, you are standing there, you are watching the6 person and they would move on after the transaction was made.7 If you want to give a time frame, you can give a8 couple of minutes.9 Q. So, a couple of minutes.10 What if somebody is haggling for five minutes,11 would they be in violation of this provision?12 A. One person?13 Q. Yes.14 A. No, they wouldnt be.

    15 Q. And why not?16 A. Again, because the transaction hasnt been17 completed yet.18 Q. So, if a potential customer is looking at someMerchandise for half and hour and they cant decide which one20 they want to buy, is it your testimony that they are not in21 violation of this provision?22 A. We are looking to find the transaction. If they23 are standing there and its five minutes, as you say, and24 they are looking over, maybe I like that picture, it depends25 on the officer; it depends on what the office might be

    1 hearing at the time. They would be able to make up their2 minds. But again, if it is one person there, is there a long3 lines of people there.4 Q. What is there is a long line of people there, tha5 if there are multiple transactions back to back that are6 taking over an hour, would they be in violation of this7 provision?8 A. Yes. I would say so, yes.

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    9 Q. And why is that?10 A. If there is a long line of people there, they are11 occupying a lot of space, they might be blocking the flow of12 pedestrian traffic.13 Q. And by long line of people, how long would

    14 constitute a long line in order to evoke this provision?15 A. There is no exact number that I ha.16 Q. So, how is a PEP officer going to know how many is17 too many in order to give this summons?18 A. Again, they would be looking to see if the area was19 blocked. That would be one main concern.20 Q. Getting back to the transaction, suppose someone21 pays for something that is only like $10 and change but they22 pay with a hundred dollar bill and the expressive matter23 vendor is scrambling to get the change, would that provoke24 this provision?

    25 A. There are so many different circumstances out1 there. This is all new to us, expressive matter situation.2 If we observe the person going up to, say, another vendor3 looking for change, or trying to find change from another4 person, I think that would be discretion.5 We are really talking about, I think you know what6 we are trying to get to when we are saying this. All the7 spots are taken up, and this person is not able to set up in8 one of those spots, they can go around vending mobile, take a9 stand there, make a transaction, I have seen it happen. The10 Statute of Liberty does it all the time.

    11 Q. So, PEP officers basically have to know it when12 they see it, but what about the artist or the expressive13 matter vendors, how would the expressive matter vendor know14 when the are violating this provision?15 A. See, no one, we are not going out and immediately16 summonsing this individual.17 Q. Right.18 A. We are going to tell them at some point, sir, you19 need to move along, maam you need to move long and if we20 see them again 15 minutes later, whatever the case is, a21 reasonable amount of time, or if they are in the same place

    22 dont justly be there would be grounds for a summons. But it23 is alleged indication first.24 Q. So, if you give someone an education and they25 conclude that particular transaction pursuant to your1 education, does that mean they cant have another transaction2 because you already warned them?3 A. In that particulars location, if we asked them to4 move along, then they must move along.

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    5 Q. Suppose they move along ten feet, is that moving6 along?7 A. It is moving along. They are not standing in one8 place. They can be displaying and someone comes along and9 sees it.

    10 MS. MILNER: At this time, I would like to11 mark this document as Plaintiffs Exhibit 18.12 (Whereupon, the aforementioned document13 entitled Expressive Matter Enforcement was marked14 as Plaintiffs Exhibit 18 for identification as of15 this date by the Reporter.)16 Q. Mr. Reeves, do you recognize this document?17 A. Yes.18 Q. What do you recognize it to be?19 A. This is a plan of action as the new, not the new20 but once the stay was lifted, an expressive manner vendor.

    21 Q. Where did you get this from?22 A. This was made up by my Commissioner Mike Docket.23 Q. This expressive matter enforcement was circulated24 along with the summons narrative.25 Is it true that these were circulated together?1 A. Those already did not have this 2 MS. NEUFELD: Say what this is.3 A. Exhibit number 17 did not have this.4 Q. So, the summons narrative was circulated first and5 then the 6 A. This goes back to when

    7 Q. In the beginning?8 A. In the beginning.9 Q. Right. And for those who didnt get that when it10 might have been circulated together with the expressive11 matter enforcement?12 A. Yes.13 Q. So, the expressive matter enforcement came after14 the 2010 revisions resumed being in effect?15 A. You are talking about this document, Exhibit 18?16 Q. Yes.17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Can you remember exactly when this expressive19 matter enforcement went out?20 A. Im sorry, when went out?21 Q. Yes.22 A. The day that is listed on top, Wednesday, May 18th.23 Q. And besides you, who else got this memo?24 A. This memo went to Deputy Inspector Rodriguez,25 Director Brown, and our Manhattan captain which would be

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    1 Benny McCant and Andrew Greenfield.2 Q. You said Benny?3 A. McCants.4 Q. And Andrew Greenfield?5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. It looks like this is a step-by-step plan of how to7 do enforcement; is that correct?8 A. These are the actions that were taken.9 Q. That were taken or to be taken?10 A. Well, yes. To be taken.11 Q. If Wednesday, May 18th has four actions listed, is12 it reasonable to assume that this would have to go out prior13 to Wednesday, May 18th?14 A. This document was created on the night of the 17th,15 I believe. It was distributed the next morning, the 18th.16 Q. I would like to direct your attention to May 24th,

    17 there is something that says Central Communications18 Can you read that bullet point right under Central19 Communications?20 A. Begin tracking vacant spots 3:00 p.m. daily.21 Q. So, what does that mean begin tracking vacant22 spots?23 A. Officers call in to Central Communications, which24 is our dispatcher, every day to see if there are any vacant25 spots available.1 Q. That doesnt have anything to do with the vacant2 medallion spots?

    3 A. Yes.4 Q. Okay. Have you found that a lot of the medallion5 spots have been vacant since the rule has gone into effect?6 A. Ive seen some.7 Q. And where have you seen them vacant?8 A. Since they were into effect recently?9 Q. Yes.10 A. All the parks, all four of the affected parks.11 Q. Why do you think these medallion spots would be12 vacant?13 A. I cant say.

    14 Q. Have you had any conversations with any of the EMVS15 about the vacancies?16 A. Personally since this went into effect?17 Q. Yes.18 A. No.19 Q. Have you heard of anybody else having conversations20 with the EMVs 21 A. Just one situation that Im aware of.

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    22 Q. Can you tell us about that, please?23 A. At Battery Park, one of our sergeants gave out a24 summons to an EMV. I believe it was last weekend. And he25 had told us that he was not going to a different location1 because he wasnt making money there.

    2 Q. In your experience in the four affect parks, do3 you believe that to be true that it is not as easy to make4 money in those medallion spots?5 A. No.6 Q. I would like to call your attention to the enforcement7 protocols at the end of the expressive matter enforcement,8 the first page and in are some bullet points and there are9 some sub-bullet points. The last thing on there is10 Engagement Process.11 A. Okay.12 Q. And two bullet points under there. The first one

    13 says Activate recorder.14 Can you tell us what that means?15 A. In any enforcement interaction with the public, we16 encourage our officers to activate their audio recorders.17 Q. Do they do that each time?18 A. Yes.19 Q. So, each time that Robert Lederman is summonsed or20 arrested, there are recorders?21 A. I cant say each time because I wouldnt have22 knowledge of that.23 Q. When you arrested Robert Lederman had you

    24 activated your recorder?25 When?1 Q. Whenever, anytime that you have arrested Robert2 Lederman?3 A. The tape recorders were not in effect back in 19984 to the extent that they are now.5 Q. And when did the tape recorders become effective?6 A. I dont remember the date.7 Q. Would you say they were, this policy became enacted8 before or after the 2010 rules went into effect?9 A. Before.

    10 Q. Would you say that this policy was enacted before11 or after the 2010 rules were being drafted?12 A. Before.13 Q. Approximately how long before?14 A. I dont remember.15 Q. A year before or less?16 A. Im not sure.17 Q. can you remember whether the last time you arrested

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    18 Robert Lederman whether the recording policy was place?19 A. Yes, it was in place.20 Q. At that time, did you record the incident of the21 last time that you arrested Robert Lederman?22 A. I did not personally record him.

    23 Q. You did not?24 A. No.25 Q. Did any other officer that was present during the1 last arrest of Robert Lederman record the incident?2 A. They should have.3 Q. They should have?4 A. Yes.5 Q. Does that mean that they didnt?6 A. I dont know.7 Q. If one of the other officers recorded, what happens8 to these recordings?

    9 A. They are stored.10 Q. Stored where?11 A. In whatever command the officer are assigned to.12 Q. How long are they stored?13 A. It depends if there is a situation it may be stored14 for several years.15 Q. I would like to call your attention to page 2 of16 the expressive matter enforcement.17 In the middle it says PEP Staffing 5/22 to 6/24.18 A. Okay.19 Q. Can you read the last bullet under there that

    20 starts with the Manhattan Night Hawk.21 A. The Manhattan Night Hawk unit will perform22 overnight anti-storage and curfew enforcement.23 Q. Is the Manhattan Night Hawk unit the same one that24 does overnight enforcement in the parks?25 A. Yes.1 Q. What can you tell me Manhattan Night Hawk unit?2 A. Well, it really shouldnt specify the Manhattan3 Night Hawk unit because it is a citywide unit. At one time,4 we had it divided up but it is really a citywide unit and5 they go around handling all sorts of conditions overnight,

    6 from homeless conditions, to staying out, to burglars, to7 break-ins, securing a park overnight; maybe somebody broke a8 door, checking the dumping. Whatever may be the issue at the9 time.10 Q. Before you testified that there is no vending on11 the High Line.12 Are there concession stands on the High Line?13 MS. NEUFELD: Objection to the form.

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    14 Q. Are you aware of concession stands on the High15 Line?16 A. There are concessions on the High Line, yes.17 Q. Before you testified that the park was special for18 one reason because it was elevated so that creates a special

    19 danger.20 Is it fair to say that if people are drunk or21 inebriated that they can fall over the elevated tracks?22 MS. NEUFELD: Objection to the form.23 Q. You can answer.24. A. If someone was drunk, there are a number of things25 that could happen.1 Q. And would you say because the High Line is2 elevated, it would create a special danger to someone who was3 under the influence of some kind of substance?4 A. I dont know it to be a fact but anyone who is

    5 is subject to fall in any park.6 Q. Are you aware that there is going to be a bar at7 the High Line?8 A. I was informed recently.9 Q. What can you tell us about that?10 A. We had a meeting and they were discussing the11 opening of a new section on the High Line and someone had12 indicated to us that there was going to be a concession with13 drinks, a concession opening with drinks.14 Q. do you think that opening a bar at the High Line is15 going to create some special public safety issue?

    16 MS. NEUFELD: Objection.17 Q. He can answer.18 A. We have a number of parks with concessions that19 serve alcohol.20 Q. What about a park that is elevated serving alcohol,21 do you see any public safety issue in that?22 MS. NEUFELD: Objection.23 A. Again, if someone is drunk they can fall or get24 injured in any park.25 Q. Would you say that there is a difference between1 falling down in Central Park and falling 50 feet off the High

    2 Line?3 MS NEUFELD: Objection. None of these4 questions have anything to do with the regulations5 at issue in this case.6 Where are we going with this?7 MS. MILNER: But it is public safety. Public8 safety has everything to do with these rule9 revisions.

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    10 MS. NEUFELD: Public safety is a component of11 the rule revisions but nothing related to alcohol12 on the High Line.13 Q. Is it legal to drink in the New York City parks?14 A. In the designated areas only; if they have a

    15 concession in the park, in that area.16 Q. So, by designated areas, do you mean people that17 are drinking or going to a medallion?18 A. Im sorry.19 Q. By designated area, do you mean medallion, there is20 a medallion for people who are drinking in the park?21 A. No.22 Q. Suppose somebody wanted to have a picnic in the23 park with alcohol, are they allowed to do that?24 A. No25 Q. Is there a designated area for people to have

    1 picnics in the park with alcohol?2 A. Not with alcohol.3 Q. And what happens to someone who is having a picnic,4 listening to a concert, drinking wine, what would happen if5 they are doing that?6 A. Would probably be asked to first pour out the7 alcohol and leave the area.8 Q. Do you remember before this deposition, the last9 time you saw Robert Lederman?10 A. The last time I saw him personally?11 Q. Yes.

    12 A. Yes.13 Q. Where was that?14 A. That was at the High Line.15 Q. Do you recall telling him that she told me you16 would be there?17 A. They told me you would be here?18 Q. Yes.19 A. I dont recall the conversation completely, no.20 Q. If you said she told me you would be here, who is21 she? Who is the she you would be referring to?22 A. I dont know.

    23 Q. Who are the females within the High Line that could24 have told you that Robert Lederman was there?25 A. On that particular date, I think I was informed by1 my officer.2 Q. A female officer?3 A. I dont remember who was on duty that day. We have4 females assigned to all posts?5 Q. So, if artists dont need a park permit to vend in

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    6 the city parks, why is the High Line different?7 MS. NEUFELD: Objection.8 A. It was all due to the uniqueness of the area, but9 it would create a problem.10 Q. Is that uniqueness a public safety issue?

    11 A. It could be.12 Q. In what way?13 A. There are very narrow paths on the High Line.14 Again there is a capacity there that we dont have in other15 parks, which were established by the Fire Department.16 Q. So, if there are capacity issues and there are17 paths, why are concessions allowed up there?18 A. I dont make those decisions.19 Q. Who does make those decisions?20 A. Parks Concession would have to go through our21 revenue division.

    22 Q. So, as long as a concession is generating revenue,23 there is no public safety issue, right?24 MS. NEUFELD: Objection.25 A. Again, I dont make those determinations.1 MS. MILNER: At this time, we will introduce2 Plaintiffs Exhibit 19.3 (Whereupon, the aforementioned document4 consisting of two pages with photographs was marked5 as Plaintiffs Exhibit 19 for identification as of6 date by the Reporter.)7 Q. Mr. Reeves, I would like to call your attention to

    8 the top left photo.9 Can you describe what you a