Preliminary Report on Student Opinion - Proposed Enrollment Expansion

7/27/2019 Preliminary Report on Student Opinion - Proposed Enrollment Expansion

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Report on Student Opinion:

Proposed Enrollment Expansion

October 2013


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Dear students, faculty and staff at the Queens University Faculty of Law,

The following is a preliminary summary of student opinion regarding the proposedenrolment expansion by the 2013-2014 Strategic Planning Committee at the Queens

University Faculty of Law. It is a summary of 37 student opinions shared with us via e-mailand social media. Overall, 2 students were for the expansion, and 35 students were against. Itis important to note that this is a preliminary report and reflects the opinion of studentsbeforethe Strategic Planning Committees official student consultations.

Students are both for and against the proposal, with concerns about the schoolcommunity, quality of education, student support services, and placement rates. Thisreport aims to outline the various concerns of each group, as well as to address the mostfrequently asked questions. The Queens Law Students Society greatly appreciates theopportunity to make submissions, and we are pleased regarding the open and transparentfeedback process the administration seeks to hold. We look forward to continuing discussions,

and anticipate releasing a final report after the consultation on October 8th, 2013. An opinionpoll will be held on October 16th and 17th to further collect student opinion.

If there are any questions or concerns regarding this report, please dont hesitate to contactNaheed Yaqubian, LSS President, at [email protected], or any of your electedstudent representatives of the Queens Law Students Society.

Kind regards,

Naheed Yaqubian, LSS President on behalf of The Queens Law Students Society

Majority Report: Against School Expansion

The majority of students who provided feedback to the LSS on the proposal, were against theidea of school expansion. Their opposition can be summarized into four main categories, beingSchool Community, Quality of Education, Student Support Services and Placement Rates.

School Community

The most commonly-mentioned reason for being against theproposal was that of the school community. Many studentsmentioned that they chose Queens Law over other schoolsbecause of the small class sizes and student support, both in firstyear and upper years. One student mentioned that the qualityof relationships you have with your professors, with yourcolleagues, and opportunities to get to know each otherpositively would be negatively affected by this expansion.

I havealways feltvalued andsupported

here.


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Students were also concerned about an increase in size meaning an increase in anonymity,leading to a decrease in attachment to the school community, perhaps even from alumni.Students who have attended schools out West, abroad and in the United States all pointed to

staggering differences that resulted from the difference in class size. Being the smallestOntario law school has been a point of pride for students, many of whom who pointed out thatthey would often share this as a key benefit of Queens Law.

The relationships that students have with each other are also seen as an issue. A studentpointed out that the closeness of the Queens community allows our interactions to remainlargely face-to-face, with the email about snacking in class at Osgoode held up as an exampleof the disconnect that occurs with larger class sizes. Ultimately, students felt that admittingmore students would lead to more competition and less cooperation and teamwork,negatively affecting not only the student community, but also the quality of the academicexperience.

Quality of Education Professors and Clinical Opportunities

On that note, the second most frequent concern raisedwas that of the quality of education at Queens Law.Students are largely satisfied with the education theyare receiving, as exemplified by the recent LSSSEresults, and are pessimistic about the impact thatadmitting more students will have on their quality ofeducation, particularly in upper-year classes. The

opportunity to become close with professors throughmoots, clinical opportunities, individual study projects, and clubs is valued at Queens Law,and was mentioned often. Students fear this close-knit relationship, which greatly enhancesthe quality of education at Queens, would be diluted with the addition of 105 new individuals.Students view Queens as a preparatory school for professionals, and are concerned that thevocational aspect of the school is getting lost. One individual mentioned the school should notbe getting more money for academics, when what we really need are practitioners, and otherstudents agreed that practitioners are some of the best lecturers and professors at QueensLaw. As these would cost less than hiring new, full-time faculty, students anticipate a higher

quality of education from a broader array of choices.

There were also several concerns about moots and clinical programs, and access to theseopportunities. There were questions about how many clinical courses this tuition revenuewill help fund, as well as competition. Many students wanted the school to broaden accessto clinical programs, and saw competition from 35 other students per year as a direct threat totheir ability to obtain legal experience within the insulated fabric of Queens Law.

Practitionersare exceptional

teachers.


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Student Support Services

Students are incredibly pleased with the high levelof student support services available, and

concerned that the addition of 105 students willnot allocate services where they are needed most,such as in Career Services and Education andEquity Services.

More staff must be divided between morestudents and make it more difficult to maintain apersonal connection with the entire class, pointedout one student. The addition of more staff,although admirable in numbers alone, ultimatelyrose fears about being lost in bureaucracy oradministration when trying to change courses orbook rooms.

Helen Connop and Julie Banting will not leave their offices until they have run out of ideas ofways to help you, mentioned one student. The approachable and helpful nature of StudentSupport Services was closely linked to a lower class size, as well as a potential decrease inone-on-one attention. Many students expressed concerns about not expecting the samelevel of support, which ran contrary to their reasons for choosing Queens Law.

Placement Rates and the Broader Legal Profession

The realities of student life once we move beyondthe borders of Queens Law cannot be ignored, satedone student. A concern about placement rates and thebroader legal profession wove through almost everysingle aspect of feedback, with concerns aboutQueens being part of the problem, rather than thesolution, of adding to the problem of too manygraduates. The articling crisis, although not theschools fault, is a testament to the fact that this issue

cannot be ignored.

Students had concerns that the same number of positions would remain available,regardless, and that we should not wait until the legal profession has a massive surplus ofteachers before deciding its time to change how law school admissions work. One studentpointed out that when you flood the market, you dilute the value of your degree and yourskills, and was concerned about how this expansion, taken together with future possibleexpansions, would change the value of the Queens Law degree to the students.

Support at

Queens isunprecedented.Jane Emrichknows everystudent by

name.

Increasingenrollment is

simplyirresponsible in

this climate.


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Students questioned the idea that Queens would maintain its superior placement rate incomparison to other schools. One wrote, Even if we accept that Queens students are sosuperior to the students of other schools that [we] will all get positions, that means an extra35 to 50 students at other schools will not. Ask yourself, is that right, either?

From a more local perspective, there were concerns that increasing enrolment would foster ahyper-competitive environment, increasing stress among students who compete amongstthemselves for articling positions. A student pointed out that arguments in favour of theexpansion [seem to be made in] the best interests of the school and not necessarily in the bestinterests of the students, with a concern that the long-term impact of this decision is notbeing taken into account.Minority Report: For School ExpansionA small minority of students welcome the idea of school expansion, for the reasons of CourseOfferings and Reputation.

Course Offerings

Students in favour of school expansion pointed out thatthe number of course offerings at Queens was muchsmaller than that of other schools such as Osgoode,leading to a tough decision, because there was simplymore to choose from. This was seen as a concern toboth the quality of education and reputation of QueensLaw, especially that we could be losing valuablestudents to other schools. Offering a broader array ofcourses would work well to draw new students to theschool, as well as to enhance educational opportunities for students that are interested inareas of law that currently have no, or fewer, course opportunities.

Reputation

Students expressed concern about the reputation ofQueens Law, should it continue to stagnate. Wedesperately need to keep pace in this competitive market,brought up one student. Expanding enrollment was seenas the best way to do this, in order to broaden the numberof, and reputation of faculty, by allowing students to gainmore clinical opportunities, and ultimately by enhancingthe overall quality of education of each student. With a

modest expansion, students felt that other students were overreacting to what could be a verywelcome opportunity for growth and positive change at Queens Law.

More studentsmeans thatmore can be

done.

This is not ahugely drasticchange.


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Frequently Asked Questions

Are we looking at expanding by 35 or 50 students? What are the final numbers?

At this point, it looks like the Strategic Planning Committee is reconsidering the originalnumber of50, to instead add 35 students to the incoming first-year class. This would add 35students to the yearly target of165, making each class consist of200 students. This wouldadd a total of105 students to the school, making our population 625 up from around 520.(Naheed Yaqubian, LSS President)

How are we going to fit these students into our classrooms?

Currently, the size of our 6 small section first-year classes range from 28 to 34 students. Inthe larger classes with two sections, the size of those classes range from 54 to 71 students. Ifenrollment is increased by 35 students, the plan is to add two additional small sections andcap each small section at 25 students. Thus, in the larger classes with two sections there willbe a total of 50 students. With these numbers, there would not be a problem with fitting thestudents in the classrooms at Macdonald Hall.

However, it is important to note that for the 2014-15 transition year (and only for that schoolyear), the first-year Property classes will have 100 students rather than 50 students. Thereason is that the funds from the increased enrollment will not be readily available to fullyaccommodate the increased number of students until the following school year (part of thereason being that students do not need to pay their tuition until September 1st).(Spencer Wong, 2L Faculty Board Representative)

Will the quality of the relationships we have with our professors decrease due to theincrease in students?

The proposed expansion would see smaller first-year class sizes, with eight small sections ofapproximately 25 students in each. This would rectify some of the space and student-to-teacher ratio issues that are being faced by 1Ls this year. Furthermore, the addition of morefull-time faculty members would mean that Queens Law student/teacher ratios would bekept the same or could possibly even decrease.(Ryan Wycherley, 3L Faculty Board Representative)

That said, plans for popular upper-year classes (Civil Procedure, Business Associations,Evidence, Administrative Law) are still being mapped out, and we look forward to hearing theAdministrations plans for them. (Naheed Yaqubian, LSS President)

How will this affect the placement rates of students at Queens Law?

Placement rates have never been a function of the amount of students admitted into QueensLaw, but rather the calibre of the students as well as the reputation of the school


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academically. Macleans has consistently ranked Queens Law within the top 6 law schoolsover the past 5 years (and top 3 within the last 2 years), with 50% of this success being owedto Faculty Journal Citations. It is this high regard in academia coupled with the quality of ourstudents that allows Queens Law to have higher placement rates than most Ontario schools,

not the quantity of our students. (Christine Innes, VP Academic)

Why do we have to hire faculty to teach? Why cant we hire practitioners?

While we currently hire practitioners for some courses, this is not ideal considering that mostwill have to come from Toronto and are travelling long distances to teach a single courseduring the week. Furthermore, the research that is done by full-time faculty members helpsmaintain the reputation of Queens Law, which has been reflected in MacLeans yearlyrankings. The continual growth of a healthy research environment allows Queens to attracttop professors from Canada and around the world.(Ryan Wycherley, 3L Faculty Board Representative)

Why cant we look at other revenue sources like expanding the new undergraduatecourse, Law 201?

The expansion of Law 201 should generate some new net revenue for the school; however, itwill take at least two to three years to demonstrate that this is a secure and ongoing source ofrevenue. Once the Faculty can demonstrate this, it may be permitted to use some of thisrevenue to support the hiring of (at least) one new Faculty member. Accordingly, expandingLaw 201 would not enable the Faculty to increase its numbers to its desired level in the nearfuture. (Lisa Pincus, 2L Faculty Board Representative)

How will this affect Equity and Career Services?

The proposed expansion of students should allow the school to hire five new Facultymembers as well as five new administrative staff (which may include Equity and CareerServices staff). The school would remain committed to ensuring that the Equity and CareerServices staff would have all the resources they need to continue to provide high levels ofservice to students. (Lisa Pincus, 2L Faculty Board Representative)

How will this affect students access to hands-on experience like clinics and moots?

An increase in faculty members is likely to increase the amount of faculty involved in themoot court program. It is also likely to expand the clinical programs currently offeredthrough monetary support. Since there would be an additional 70 students in 2L and 3Lcombined, this means the ratio of applicants to placements may not change. Access to hands-on experience will not go down, but will either stay proportionally the same or will increasewith a greater diversity of opportunities available.(Deepa Negandhi, 3L Faculty Board Representative)

Preliminary Report on Student Opinion - Proposed Enrollment Expansion

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