Pantsir-S1 shortcomings defined

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Pantsir-S1 shortcomings defined

Transcript of Pantsir-S1 shortcomings defined

Page 2: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings defined

Post n°241

Re: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings defined

medo on Mon May 13, 2013 9:09 pm

Two faced array means twice the radar price... it has two

radar antennas fitted... twice the power required, twice

the processing needed, twice the cooling needed. The

payoff is double the update rate for information... but you

could have gotten that by replacing the gearing in the

motor turning the radar to make it spin twice as fast...

It's not that easy. Range and rotating speed are connected,

because radio signal travel with speed of light to the max

range and back. Longer range of radar, lower rotating

speed. If you increase rotating speed than you have shorter

range.

it that case they already have a kinda 3 faced radar there 2

for search and 1 for aiming ,4 faced aesa cant be that much

more expencive and would add together with fire&forget

missiles (certain percentage at least not all of them i

imagine a system could have 4 IIR and 4 active radar and 4

radio-command missiles for different targets) tremendous

all-around capability.

i think rotating turret is there mostly because of guns not

missiles.

Pantsir is mobile system, not stationary. It depend on its

own electrogenerator (APU), which give all energy for all

systems inside vehicle. Radars, communications,

computers, etc. You have to know few things. The strongest

radio signal have radio missile guiding antenna, but it only

work in time of missile flight. It have very high energy, that

missile got guiding signal to maximum range and that it is

stronger than any jammer so it could not be jammed.

Second strongest is tracking radar and it only work, when

targets are given to launch missiles and when missiles hit

target you turn it off. Search radar is not that energy

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consumption device and it could work all the time as well as

communications, that is why you most easily jam search

radar. To place four AESA radars, which work as search

and as tracking radars, than you have to have much

stronger APU to feed them, but in mobile system you are

limited in this case.

This new Janus faced radar should have additional small

APU inside between two antennas, or reduced energy

consumption that the whole radar use as much energy as

the older one. You have better situation picture with this

radar, but if signal is weaker, than it is a question, how

much it is vulnerable to jamming.

-those javelin and eryx you posted didnt explode!!!

they just shut down and fall on the ground where can do

least damage!!!

, i mean for Pantcir it didnt fall to the ground ,it didnt shut

down it exploded , this is hot booster coming apart high

above the ground level raining hell all around it , hot pieces

of burning solid fuel from first stage and shrapnel from

second stage explosives also igniting ,would kill instantly

anyone and would do much more damage then small rocket

motors of eryx or javelin.

As I said earlier, not all missile fails are because of bad

production. They could also be because of bad handling

before placed on launcher. Maybe some connections inside

missile are out and main rocket engine will not work and

missile fall on the ground. On the other hand missile could

fall on the ground before and than the body of missile could

have cracks and when engine ignite, missile explode. There

could as well be problem with storing of missiles. If

containers are not hermetically closed, than humidity could

damage wire connections.

Page 4: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings defined

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Post n°242

Re: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings

defined

GarryB on Tue May 14, 2013 2:42 pm

-that seadart is old naval missile probably expired ,and

there isnt anyone around the ship when its firing ,its

standard procedure ,but during war there is a good

chance there would be soldiers around Pantcir in the

marching column ...

That wasn't a new video... old missiles are a problem the

operators have to deal with... Sea Dart failure = serious

deck fire, Pantsir-S1 failure firework display 50m in front of

the vehicle.

There would be no soldiers milling around an operational air

defence vehicle... just as there would be no soldiers

hanging around the muzzle of a MBT in an operational

situation either.

Page 5: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings defined

-those javelin and eryx you posted didnt explode!!!

they just shut down and fall on the ground where can do

least damage!!!

So in every case where the camera man sht themselves

and duck for cover they are being silly?

You will notice that in the Pantsir-S1 video it was the

booster exploding, not the missiles warhead, which is not

armed till the missile gets to within 1km of the target.

Nothing shut down on those ATGMs... the charge to jettison

the missile from the tube fired but the missiles rocket motors

failed to accelerate the missiles down range to the target...

the warhead will not have armed but those rocket motors

could easily start up and send that missile anywhere...

nothing like self propelled UXO floating around a convoy...

, i mean for Pantcir it didnt fall to the ground ,it didnt shut

down it exploded , this is hot booster coming apart high

above the ground level raining hell all around it , hot pieces

of burning solid fuel from first stage and shrapnel from

second stage explosives also igniting ,would kill instantly

anyone and would do much more damage then small rocket

motors of eryx or javelin.

A very high energy solid rocket motor booster like that fitted

to the Pantsir-S1 is very close to the burning rate of

explosives, and the fault with the booster in this shot clearly

shows the propellent in the booster all burning at once...

looking very much like an explosion... but not actually being

one in the technical sense. If that booster could kill

everyone in 50m radius then why on earth would the military

waste their time with HE bombs when solid rocket boosters

are so lethal. The simple fact is that they are not... it would

be no more lethal than fireworks...ie no high supersonic

crushing blast wave, no shrapnel effective to any decent

range to be useful as a weapon. The missile payload would

not have been armed and would likely have landed largely

intact... if dented and scratched. An UXO issue a real

convoy in a real combat situation would probably just leave.

In an exercise the UXO ordinance personnel would be

brought in to deal with it and the exercise suspended till it

was sorted.

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it seems the missile is turning during boost phase on many

videos probably using its canards on the front of second

stage ,they seem to be active from the start.

I was referring to hard turns, not small corrections.

it that case they already have a kinda 3 faced radar there 2

for search and 1 for aiming

Searching and tracking are two different functions.

The best comparison is with a tank crew... in a modern tank

you have three to four crewmen. The driver moves the

vehicle as directed by the commander who has a good view

of the terrain from high up in the turret. The radar functions

in a tank are performed by the gunner and the

commander... the gunner has his own sights with powerful

magnification and night and all weather capability but can

only see about 45 degrees and can only move their sight

about 30 degrees either side of where the tank turret is

facing. This is not a flaw in the design however as the

gunners job is to fire the main and coaxial gun at targets so

he does not need to see anywhere he can't or isn't pointing

the gun. The commanders job is two fold in terms of radar..

he looks for threats to the tank, and he looks for targets to

engage, so he has a 360 degree view and is regularly

scanning for threats and targets. Now lets say he spots a

group of enemy infantry that are 3km away in a light truck...

he will command the gunner to look at the bearing the target

is located on at the distance to the target and he might

order him to engage with HE, so the commander might

rotate the turret to face the target while he looks around for

other targets and threats. the gunner lases the target and

gets the range, which is converted into a flight time by the

computer and loads a HE round with an ANEIT fuse so the

shell airbursts directly above the enemy truck and places

the aim point directly on the target... the commander

suddenly spots a T-60 tank rumbling over a hill... the T-60 is

a threat to his tank and firing on the truck will reveal their

presence so the commander will order hold fire, new target,

new ammo so the new target will then be engaged.

On the Pantsir-S1 the two search radar will only search for

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new targets and threats... an AH-64 due west firing 2

Hellfire missiles at the Pantsir-S1 would be a much higher

priority than most targets that are visible, though in this case

the Pantsir-S1 can engage up to 4 targets at once, and can

hand data to other vehicles it is operating with, so up to 24

targets can be dealt with at one time by a Pantsir-S1

battery.

,4 faced aesa cant be that much more expencive and would

add together with fire&forget missiles (certain percentage at

least not all of them i imagine a system could have 4 IIR

and 4 active radar and 4 radio-command missiles for

different targets) tremendous all-around capability.

Each radar element in an AESA is a radar that can cost

hundreds of dollars each. Each array has hundreds or

thousands of elements, so having four arrays, each with

1,000 elements with each element costing $200 each... we

are talking millions of dollars just for the radar antenna...

imagine the processing power needed to handle all that

data?

AESA are certainly getting cheaper, but the search radar

doesn't need to be hugely accurate... it is the tracking radar

that needs high precision.

As QWIP chips get cheaper then IIR seekers will become

more affordable. MMW radar homing seekers are already

not hugely expensive. I agree that in some situations having

terminally guided missiles would be useful... the HERMES

is based on the SA-22 and will have missiles with MMW

radar seekers and IIR seekers as well as SALH seekers, so

even a stealth target can have a laser pointed at it and

SALH missiles fired at it from a number of platforms.

Having said that the tracking radar of the Pantsir-S1 seems

to be very accurate so command guidance with autotracking

is exceptionally cheap and simple so you can buy an

enormous number of rockets and actually use them in

training... I would say of 12 that 8 being radio command and

perhaps 2 MMW radar guided and 2 IIR guided, would allow

the instant use of 4 missiles and about 5 seconds later

those guidance channels could be reused for radio

command guided missiles before the first missiles had hit...

so in practise 8 targets engaged at once per vehicle.

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More interesting the artwork for the HERMES shows a light

truck carrying about 40 missile tubes... imagine two of those

operating with a battery to support them in a heavy attack...

and besides where would exhaust gases go?

Where do they go on Vikhr-M? It is a single stage missile

that is a beam rider... where does the rocket motor go on

most ATGMs?

Hint... as the fuel burns having a rear mounted rocket motor

would move the cg forward with the nose mounted warhead

making it too nose heavy and resulting in a nose dive. Many

rockets have rocket fuel in the centre of the missile vented

sideways and to the rear to propel the missile forward

without blocking the view back to the launcher so the

gionometer can track the missile.

It's not that easy. Range and rotating speed are connected,

because radio signal travel with speed of light to the max

range and back. Longer range of radar, lower rotating

speed. If you increase rotating speed than you have shorter

range.

This is very true for large powerful very long range radars

that need to keep looking till the signal has had time to go

out and come back, but not really relevant for Pantsir-S1.

i think rotating turret is there mostly because of guns not

missiles.

The missiles need to be pointed in the general direction...

making the missiles turn hard at launch wastes energy that

could have been used for speed.

On the other hand missile could fall on the ground before

and than the body of missile could have cracks and when

engine ignite, missile explode.

It might have been incorrectly stored and the solid fuel

might have developed internal cracks... a flame wave front

moving down a crack in a solid fuel missile can lead to far

Page 9: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings defined

too much propellent being ignited at once with a huge spike

in pressure that the fuel and missile walls cannot contain...

creating an explosion... think of a fuse... if you bundle it up

in a tight bundle instead of a single thread of material

burning it all burns at once and looks very much like an

explosion...

i think rotating turret is there mostly because of guns not

missiles.

_________________

10 years, trillions of dollars, thousands of soldiers dead, two

wars, state of the art technology, but the US finally found Bin

Laden.

In his house.

medo

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Post n°243

Page 10: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings defined

Re: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings

defined

medo on Tue May 14, 2013 6:23 pm

This is very true for large powerful very long range

radars that need to keep looking till the signal has had

time to go out and come back, but not really relevant for

Pantsir-S1.

It is relevant for all radars. For example, Roland battery

radar (FGR) have range of 60 km and rotate with 50 rpm.

Roland fire unit (FRR) search radar have range of 16,5 km

and rotate with 60 rpm. Tunguska have similar range and

similar rotating speed, while Pantsir with longer range have

lower speed.

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Page 11: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings defined

Post n°244

Re: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings

defined

Rpg type 7v on Tue May 14, 2013 7:02 pm

GarryB wrote:

You will notice that in the Pantsir-S1 video it was the

booster exploding, not the missiles warhead, which is not

armed till the missile gets to within 1km of the target.

A very high energy solid rocket motor booster like that

fitted to the Pantsir-S1 is very close to the burning rate of

explosives, and the fault with the booster in this shot

clearly shows the propellent in the booster all burning at

once... looking very much like an explosion... but not

actually being one in the technical sense. If that booster

could kill everyone in 50m radius then why on earth

would the military waste their time with HE bombs when

solid rocket boosters are so lethal. The simple fact is that

they are not...

Searching and tracking are two different functions.

Where do they go on Vikhr-M? It is a single stage missile

that is a beam rider... where does the rocket motor go on

most ATGMs?

Hint... as the fuel burns having a rear mounted rocket

motor would move the cg forward with the nose mounted

warhead making it too nose heavy and resulting in a

nose dive. Many rockets have rocket fuel in the centre of

the missile vented sideways and to the rear to propel the

missile forward without blocking the view back to the

launcher so the gionometer can track the missile.

yet if you watch frame by frame it has 2 explosions first for

unknown reason booster explodes in the air ,then activates

second stage explosives and they detonate too ,yes the

Page 12: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings defined

blast- fragmentation explosive warhead.

warhead weight is 20kg and the whole second stage is 30kg

, besides warhead occupies the central part of the missiles

2/3 of length of it .

there is no sustainer nore base base bleed ,and there are

no tubes on the side of the missile i think you need to drop it

already...

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Post n°245

Re: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings

defined

Rpg type 7v on Tue May 14, 2013 7:06 pm

GarryB wrote:

Each radar element in an AESA is a radar that can cost

hundreds of dollars each. Each array has hundreds or

Page 13: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings defined

thousands of elements, so having four arrays, each with

1,000 elements with each element costing $200 each...

we are talking millions of dollars just for the radar

antenna... imagine the processing power needed to

handle all that data?

AESA are certainly getting cheaper, but the search radar

doesn't need to be hugely accurate... it is the tracking

radar that needs high precision.

i dont think you need that this is a short range system

requiring detection ranges of 30ish km and aiming power

out to 18-20km.

that means it would need much less elements then fighter

radars of 150-200km detection

.i remember zhuk-ae having up to 700 elements for

something like 150km track/ this radar could have 200

elements easy on 1 side, *4= 800 elements in total.

medo

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Post n°246

Page 14: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings defined

Re: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings

defined

medo on Tue May 14, 2013 10:18 pm

yet if you watch frame by frame it has 2 explosions first

for unknown reason booster explodes in the air ,then

activates second stage explosives and they detonate too

,yes the blast- fragmentation explosive warhead.

It was actually exactly what I was explaining. There wasn't

two explosions, but booster engine ignition and than

explosion, what is actually consequence of cracks in solid

rocket fuel. This is actually what happened, when container

with missile fall from the hight even in the warehouse or in

the time of loading. That is why there are very strict safety

roles, when handling with missiles and why missiles, if fall

or anything similar, must not go on launcher but in

destruction.

GarryB

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Page 15: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings defined

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Post n°247

Re: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings

defined

GarryB on Wed May 15, 2013 2:11 pm

i think rotating turret is there mostly because of guns not

missiles.

Both the guns and the missiles need to be pointed at the

target.

yet if you watch frame by frame it has 2 explosions first for

unknown reason booster explodes in the air ,then activates

second stage explosives and they detonate too ,yes the

blast- fragmentation explosive warhead.

Have watched several times... after being blown from the

tube the main rocket booster starts to ignite and the whole

booster explodes... look at full Pantsir-S1 videos with

interceptions of targets and you will see a bright orange

flash and black smoke when the real HE warhead

explodes... there is no explosion of the HE warhead in this

video.

...and nor would one expect their to be, the propellent would

not be sufficient to set it off as it is burning rapidly rather

than exploding and the fuse of the warhead would not be

armed yet.

warhead weight is 20kg and the whole second stage is 30kg

, besides warhead occupies the central part of the missiles

Page 16: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings defined

2/3 of length of it .

there is no sustainer nore base base bleed ,and there are

no tubes on the side of the missile i think you need to drop it

already...

Do you have an official drawing of the SA-22 missile (as

opposed to drawings of earlier missiles with much shorter

range?)

i dont think you need that this is a short range system

requiring detection ranges of 30ish km and aiming power

out to 18-20km.

that means it would need much less elements then fighter

radars of 150-200km detection

.i remember zhuk-ae having up to 700 elements for

something like 150km track/ this radar could have 200

elements easy on 1 side, *4= 800 elements in total.

The elements are fixed and the radar scans by turning

elements on and off... the more elements the greater

precision of tracking. If you only want 200 elements per face

then your accuracy in tracking will be greatly reduced...

keep in mind this radar needs to be able to track very very

small targets like missiles and bombs and stealthy cruise

missiles.

_________________

10 years, trillions of dollars, thousands of soldiers dead, two

wars, state of the art technology, but the US finally found Bin

Laden.

In his house.

Page 17: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings defined

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Post n°248

Re: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings

defined

Rpg type 7v on Wed May 15, 2013 5:24 pm

then where did the second stage go? its not seen on any

frame after explosion. it had to fly off somewhere if it was in

1 piece. and there are 2 types of debries falling on the

ground...

aesa that size is good enough for 15-20km ranges like i

said. you arent going to aim it 100kms away... even current

pesa aiming radar looks alot like kopyo radar from mig-21

upgrade program, even smaller.

look at this video at start there is turning using canards

during boost phase , and black smoke when the missile

explodes>? where is orange?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-dQZgPo_PY

Page 18: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings defined

GarryB

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Post n°249

Re: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings

defined

GarryB on Thu May 16, 2013 5:54 am

look at this video at start there is turning using canards

during boost phase , and black smoke when the missile

explodes>? where is orange?

The video you provide clearly shows a ball of black smoke

when the warhead detonates near the target and there is no

black smoke in the video of the booster failure. The

presence of an orange flash probably depends on the

shutter speed of the camera filming and the general light

conditions, but with some interceptions... especially the long

range interceptions you often see an orange flash and black

smoke when the target is intercepted.

then where did the second stage go? its not seen on any

frame after explosion. it had to fly off somewhere if it was in

Page 19: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings defined

1 piece. and there are 2 types of debries falling on the

ground...

Looking again at it frame by frame there are three black

dots... I suspect the booster blowing up probably exerted an

assymetrical force on the missile and broke it into 3

pieces... but the warhead did not explode because there is

no black smoke.

_________________

10 years, trillions of dollars, thousands of soldiers dead, two

wars, state of the art technology, but the US finally found Bin

Laden.

In his house.

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Post n°250

Page 20: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings defined

Re: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings

defined

Rpg type 7v on Thu May 16, 2013 7:44 pm

those were parts of canards and other electronic blocks in

the second stage flying apart ... you can even see

fragments from fragmentation warhead bouncing off the

ground after explosion -ive seen that before.

what happened is that the booster is much bigger and its

violent explosion masked the explosives in the second

stage going off.

GarryB

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Post n°251

Page 21: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings defined

Re: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings

defined

GarryB on Fri May 17, 2013 3:43 am

So where is the cloud of black smoke that clearly lingers in

the air for several seconds... as shown in the video you

posted showing the warhead exploding next to a target?

those were parts of canards and other electronic blocks in

the second stage flying apart

Lets be clear... there is the booster and the missile stage...

those three black dots were pieces of the missile stage.

Over several frames those black dots don't change in size

so they are not flat surfaces like canards or tail fins that

would be spinning in the air as they fell, they are sections.

Looking at the dark line that is the missile at launch

perspective would mean that the very slim missile will look

smaller than the booster and as it moves away as it

launches will get smaller and smaller... if it is broken into

three pieces what makes you think the warhead exploded?

Looking at your video of tethered targets with the missile

exploding nearby... where is the missile there?

Looking at the cross section of the older missiles most of

the missile body is explosive... if it had exploded there

would not be three black dots as they would likely have

been shattered into tiny pieces like they are when the

warhead explodes near the target.

_________________

10 years, trillions of dollars, thousands of soldiers dead, two

wars, state of the art technology, but the US finally found Bin

Laden.

In his house.

Page 22: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings defined

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Post n°252

Re: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings

defined

Rpg type 7v on Fri May 17, 2013 2:54 pm

hmm good point there , it seems it did crack and seperate

into 3 pieces from the jolt of exploding booster or the

shockwave , frontal with canards central with explosive and

rear with rear finns infact that part can be seen .they fly into

air and away from the view of camera , too bad the video

isnt longer with debris collected and post analysis .

anyway not that its comforting booster is much bigger then

explosive fragmentation warhead and the way pieces

bounce of the ground it would be quite deadly to anyone

nearby.

Page 23: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings defined

Aaand back to radar i dont think a 4 faced pyramidal type

aesa wouldnt be that bulky , it would certainly weigh less

then rotating passive search radar and aiming radar.

I think price has fallen for commercial GaAs transistors now

from 2000->1000$ per unit. i think if u have 2-3 times less

elements on that plate there would be lots of room between

them so you could skip liquid cooling and use air cooled

chips making it even lighter.

I found this chart showing momentum of the missile during

its flight, its obvious it has just first stage booster unlike Tor

system which has 2 stage missile with sustainer rocket

motor. Also deceleration of crotale missile shown the drag

penalty of larger diameter missile.

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Post n°253

Page 24: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings defined

Re: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings

defined

Rpg type 7v on Fri May 17, 2013 11:32 pm

Well it seems i was right all along.

And you guys were wrong...

After some research i found out that new version- Pantsir-

SM is in development...that should rectify original pantcirs

shortcomings...

Hmmm i wonder how will it look like?

This is latest news.

https://vk.com/wall-25189118_80589

http://www.biztass.ru/news/id/69596

http://tula.bezformata.ru/listnews/poluchit-kredit-pochti-na-5-

mlrd/11523737/

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Page 25: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings defined

Post n°254

Re: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings

defined

xeno on Fri May 17, 2013 11:51 pm

Great news.

Pantsir-S1, which is the best system in the world compared

with similar types of other countries, willl get even better.

Hope the Pantsir-SM project will be a success...

TR1

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Post n°255

Page 26: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings defined

Re: Pantsir-S1 shortcomings

defined

TR1 on Sat May 18, 2013 12:29 am

Rpg type 7v wrote:Well it seems i was right all along.

And you guys were wrong...

After some research i found out that new version-

Pantsir-SM is in development...that should rectify

original pantcirs shortcomings...

Hmmm i wonder how will it look like?

This is latest news.

https://vk.com/wall-25189118_80589

http://www.biztass.ru/news/id/69596

http://tula.bezformata.ru/listnews/poluchit-kredit-pochti-

na-5-mlrd/11523737/

You were right because the Pantsir continues to get better?

Your logic is terrible.

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