P. George Bird Oral History Interview, 2016 April 19

Eastern Michigan UniversityDigitalCommons@EMU

Oral Histories Sound Recordings

4-19-2016

P. George Bird Oral History Interview, 2016 April19Alexis Braun MarksEastern Michigan University, [email protected]

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Recommended CitationBraun Marks, Alexis, "P. George Bird Oral History Interview, 2016 April 19" (2016). Oral Histories. 3.http://commons.emich.edu/oral_histories/3

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OralHistoryinterviewwithP.GeorgeBird(GB)ConductedbyAlexisBraunMarks,UniversityArchivist(ABM)Alsopresentforaportion,LauraBird(LB)Recorded2016April19 FirstinathreepartseriesofinterviewsABM:Wearerecordingthisdaythe19thofApril2016withPasinPaulGeorgeBirdandmyselfUniversityArchivistatEasternMichiganUniversity,AlexisBraunMarksSowewillstartwiththreebasicquestionsaboutwhoyouareandthenwillgointoalittlemoreaboutyourtimeatEastern.Youcanstopmeatanypoint,youdonothavetoanswerallthequestionsGB:ThereisnothingonhereIwillnotanswer…ABM:WellifyoudecideasitcomesupyouthinktoyourselfIdon’tknowaboutthatyoucansaypass.Whatyearwereyouborn?GB:1927ABM:Wheredidyougrowup?GB:InWisconsin.ABM:WhereisWisconsin,it’sabigplaceGB:Allover,severalplacesABM:Anywherespecific,RiceLake,Oshkosh,Milwaukee,MadisonGB:MadisonisasgoodasanyplaceLB:Butwheredidyourfamilylive?GB:ReallyinGreenLake,thatisrightinthemiddleofthestate.ABM:IdidmygraduateworkatMadison,soyouandIarebothBadgersGB:Ohyoudid?[sings]HerewegoWisconsin,WisconsinintheredABM:CanyoutellmewhereyouattendedElementary,MiddleandHighSchool?


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GB:GreenLake,WisconsinABM:Allthree?GB:AllThreeTimeStamp2:47ABM:So,nowwearegoingtoturntoyourearlycareeratEastern,whichatthetimewhenyouwerehiredwastheMichiganStateNormalCollege…GB:That’srightABM:CanyourecallwhenandhowyoumetWilliamWork?GB:OfcourseIcan.Uh,heah,hehadgraduatedfromCornell.Hisfatherwastheprofessoroftomatoes.Hehadproducedmorevarietiesoftomatoesthatanybodyinthecountry.Andthatiswherehecamefrom.Therewasamanthere,aprofessorthere,whosenameofcourseIdon’tremember,butwhowasverywellknowninthetheatreworldasbeingabigguyandthatiswhereBill[WilliamWork]wenttoschool.AndwhenhegraduatedtherehelookedforanassistantshipsomewhereandthisgentlemantheresenthimtotehUniversityofWisconsinandtoFredBurkewhowastechnicaldirectoranddesignerofthetheater.Anduh,thatiswhereImethim.Imethimthere,hehadanassistantshipandIjustcameinasastudentandwemetandtalkedandgottalkingandseemedtogetalongallright.Andthenwegotinvolvedwithaproductionforadirector,whoInevercaredmuchfor,buthedid,BilldidandwegotinvolvedindesigningthelightsandthatwasbuiltandbuiltandbuiltandweworkedandworkedandworkedonthedarnthingandweneverdidgetitstraightenedoutbutthatiswhathappenedandthatiswhereImethimandhowwegottoknoweachother.ABM:GreatGB:WeworkedtogetherABM:YouandWork,Workedtogether.Howdidhe[WilliamWork]enticeyoutocometoYpsilanti?GB:AtthetimeI,Icamehere,IwasofferedajobatUniversityNebraska.AndthereweretwoproblemswiththeUniversityofNebraskaasfarasIwasconcerned.OnewasthatIthinkLincolnwasalovelycitybutthe[…]thatIthoughtwasnotsohot.Nottrueitwasveryhot…anywaytheotherproblemwhichwasmoreimportantwasthatIwouldhavehadtoteachallcommunicationandIwasn’tinterestedinthat.ABM:SotheappealofgoingtotheNormalCollegewasthatyoucouldjustteachtheatre?


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GB:No,Icouldn’tjustteachtheatre,Iwouldhavetoteachboth.ABM:OkayGB:ButIcouldteachboth,ifIwenttoNebraskaIwouldbeinadepartmentofcommunicationandwouldnotbeallowedtoteachoutsideofit.ABM:Thatmakessensethen.SowhenyoustartedattheNormalCollegeinthefallof1955,Igotthatdateright,right.ThatwaspartoftheEnglishandSpeechdepartment.GB:Itcertainlywas.ABM:Okay,soyouandWilliamWorkweretheonlytwowhotaughttheatreatthetime?Isthatcorrect?GB:Ithinkthatis100percentcorrectyes.ABM:IjustwantedtomakesureIhadthosefactsstraight.SobeforeQuirkwasbuiltin1958,wasRooseveltschooltheonlyplaceoncampuswherestageproductionswereheld?GB:Thatisnotso…ABM:Okay?GB:Therewereatleastthreeotherplaceswhereproductionswereheld…ABM:Canyoutellmewherethosewereoncampus?Ifyourecall…GB:Onewasthereligiouscenter…youknowthe…ABM:Starkweather?GB:That’sit.ABM.That’sit?StarkweatherandRoosevelt?Whatwastheotherone?GB:Um,theadministrationbuildinghadatheatreinit.ABM:BooneHallhadatheatreinit?InterestingGB:Itdidindeed.Notonlythat,buttheyallhadtheatresinthem.ABM:Howdoyoumean?


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GB:Smalltheatresbuttheretheywere,smalltheatresinallthosebuildings.ABM:So,weretherestageproductionswithsets.GB:Ithinkyouareoverplayingit.ABM:Iamjustsortofcurious,because…GB:Iknowwhatyouaretryingtosay.Theanswertothatisyesandno.ForexampleinRooseveltweusedtogooverthereandmakeposters,butIdon’tremembermakinganysetsthere.ABM:Sowhentherewas,well,whatwasoneofthefirstshowsthatyouproducedattheNormalCollege.GB:ME?ABM:Yeah,you.Orassistedwithinproduction.GB:Uh,themagnanimouslover.ABM:Great,solet’ssaythemagnanimouslover,hadasetandyousoldticketstoit,andtheticketssaidperformanceinblank…wouldthosehavebeeninRoosevelt,orin…GB:TheywouldhavedefinitelybeeninRoosevelt.ABM:Ok,sothatismyquestion.Becausewhenweseeprogramsinthearchivesforsayorchestraperformances,allofthosewereinPeaseAuditorium,umandwehaveseensomephotographsofveryearlystageproductionsinPease,butnophotographicrecordofstageproductionsbytheUniversityinRoosevelt,althoughweknowtheyhappenedinRoosevelt.SoIguessthatiswhatIwascurioustoknowmoreabout,whichgoesintothenextquestionaboutwhatitwasliketohaveastageproductionthatwasn’tdesignatedasatheatrefortheUniversity.BecauseRooseveltwasafunctioningK-8School.GB:Yesitwas.Andwehadcometheretoperformonoccasionandfoundapep-rallyonthestage.ABM:Sowhatwould,sothemagnanimousloverlet’ssaywasrunningovertwoweekendsGB:ATerribleplay…


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ABM:Ihaveneverseenit,soIwon’tmakeapointto.Um,solet’ssayitwasgoingtoruntwoweekends.Whathappenstotheset?WhathappenstothesetinbetweenthoseweeksinRoosevelt?GB:Ihaven’tthefaintestideaABM:Diditstayonthestage?GB:Apparently.ABM:Oh,okay…Wellyouwouldknow,Iwasn’tthere.GB:Idon’trememberatall.LB:Thatisnotwhathetoldme.[faintly]GB:What’sthematter?ABM:[directedatLaura]Sure…youcantalkloud.LB:Ithoughtyoutoldmeabouthavingtotakethesetsdownaftereachperformance.GB:YoutalkingaboutRoosevelt?LB:YeahGB:Okay.Let’sgoback.ABM:Yes,let’sgoback.GB:Youarecorrect.LB:Iamcorrect.ABM:LettherecordshowthatLaurawascorrect…GB:Iwillnowtellyousomethingthatyoucouldn’tcarelessabout.TherewasonstageinRooseveltthebiggestgdpianoyoueversaw.Anditwasinawoodencage,andyoucouldn’ttakeitoutofthecageunderanycircumstances,ithadtostayinthecage.Butwehadtokeepmovingthecageeverynightsowecoulddotheshow.Sowehadtomoveiteverynight,fineanddandywehadtomovethecage.Oneofthethingswediscoveredverysoonwastheydidn’tsweepunderthecage,thesweptaroundthecage.Butthat’sbesidethepoint,anyway.Yes,thesetshadtocomedowneverynight,whybecausetheyhad8o’clockbandpractice,soeverythinghadto


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comedown,leanedagainstthewallallthewayaroundthedarnplace,andthecagesatoutthereinthemiddle.Butthathadtohappeneverynight.ABM:Didthatimpacthowyoudesignedforyourshows.GB:Itimpactedthefactthatyoudidn’tdesignverydarnmuch.ABM:Iguessthatwouldmakesense.DidyoueverenliststudentsfromRooseveltinthecastofyourproductions?GB:IneverdidbutIknowBilldid.Becausehedidsomeshowsthathadlittlekidsinthem.Yeahyoudoknow…LB:Idon’tremember.Iwasn’taroundwithBillWork,Inevermethim.GB:But,but,but,youhaveseenthatshow.Youdirectedthatshow.LB:Ah,Wilderness?GB:No.Abouttheicebergscoming…LB:Oh,TheSkinofOurTeeth?No…GB:Yeah.Hehadkidsinthat.WhyIdon’tknow.WhyheeverdiditIdon’tknow.LB:Idon’tknowwhyIeverdirectediteither.GB:Itisnotagoodplay.Anywaythatisbesidethepoint.Let’shelptheyoungladygetsomethingdonehere….ABM:Nothisisallveryhelpful.ArethereanyotherstoriesyouwouldliketoshareaboutputtingonproductionsinRoosevelt,orsomeofthoseearlyproductionsinyourfirstfewyearsattheNormalCollege?GB:Sure.Uh…ABM:Iwanttohearthemall,thegoodthebadandtheugly.GB:Anyway.Uh,whatshowisitwherethetrapdoorhastoopen?[lookstoLB]Uh,isthatuh…LB:Areyoutalkingabouttheforeigner?GB:No.LB:No.Causethatismuchlater…


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GB:No,no,no…talkingabouttheearlydays.LB:Welllet’spretendweknowthetitle.Whathappened?GB:Okay,whathappenedwas.Wehada,wellthisisnotnice.Butwedidit.Wehadtheguytherethatwassupposedtokeephiseyeontheplace.SobillandIgothimdrunk,andwecutaholeinthefloor.ABM/LB:[laughing]LB:Ihadn’theardthatone.GB:Andthenweputhimdownthehole.Andthenwenaileditshut,buthegotout.Desperatemeansproducedesperatethings…ABM:Didtheytaketherepairsoutofyourpaycheck?GB:Nope,no.BecauseBillalwaysgavehimacaseofbeerforChristmas.ABM:Greasethewheelsright?Yougottaknowhowtogreasethewheels.SoIwouldliketoknow,thenextcoupleofquestionsaredirectedatsortofthedesignprocessofQuirk.Ihavereadthroughanumberofarticleswhereyoutalkabout,beingabletodesignatheatre,wassortofthecarrottobringyoutocampusandsortofwhatkeptyouthereintheearliestyears.Isthattrue?17:07TimeStampGB:Runmethoroughthatonemoretime.ABM:SowhenBill[WilliamWork]wasaskingyou,encouragingyoutocometotheNormalcollege,waspartofthatconversation“IfyoucomeGeorge,youaregoingtogettohelpmedesignatheater.”GB:Okay.No.Itisquitedifferent.TherewasaVicePresident,andthisisreallyimportant.JimGreen,JamesGreen,JamesE.Greenasamatteroffact.Forwhichthelobbyisnamedandthencoveredoverwithglasssoyoucan’treadit,awfulthing.Anawfulthingtodo,buttheydidit,butthat’sbesidethepoint.Thepointis,hewasVicePresidentinchargeofdevelopmentandoneofthethingshewantedtodowasputanewtheatreonthecampus.Hewantedtodoit,andhiswifewantedtodoit,probablymoreimportantforhim,butthatisbesidethepoint.Anyway,hedid.Anduh,hecameintotheofficeonedayandsaid“Well,howareyouBird?”andIsaid“Ok,howareyou?”hesaid“fine,wearegonnagetanewtheatre.”Isaid“Good,let’sgetatit.”Andhesays“okay,let’ssitdownoverhereandtalkaboutit.”Andwedid.


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ABM:Sowasitjusthetwoofyouinvolvedinthatprocess?Orwerethereotherpeople,nothinghappensattheUniversitywithoutacommittee.GB:WillBillWorkofcoursewasinvolved.Andthedepartmenthead,JohnSattler,wasofcourseinvolved.And,President…sureeveryonewasinvolved.Thepresident…infacttheVicePresidentwasopposedtoit.ABM:SotheVicePresident,areyoutalkingaboutBruceNelson?GB:IamtalkingaboutBruceNelson.Lovelyman,tooreligiousfortheatre.Hejustplainwastoomuchonthatsideofthegame…[Lauragetsuptoleave]Whereareyougoing?LB:Ihavetogo…GB:Youcan’t!Youaremissingtherestofthestory…LB:Iknow,anditisdrivingmecrazy!ABM:Iwillsharetherecordingwithher.SoBruceNelsonwastooreligiousfortheatre?GB:That’sthewayIfeltaboutit.Uh,he,Idon’trecallwhatreligionhewasoris…ishestillwithus?ABM:Heis,hejustcelebratedhis100thbirthday,buthehasdementiaandhisdaughtersaysheisn’tdoingwell,so.GB:Ilikedhimalot,heseemedtolikeme,butthetheatrewasnothisthing.Ialwaysfeltitwasareligiousthing,butIdon’t’knowthat.Hemayjustplainnotlikeit.ABM:Soit,youaresortofdesigning.Therearelotsofpeopleinvolved,um.Butitseemsasif,itwasprimarilyyouandJimGreenhavingaconversationaboutdesign.Sowhatkindsofthingsdidyoutakeintoconsiderationwhendesigningthespace?GB:Thefirstthingthathappened,wasthatwetookaverylongandexpensivetriparoundthearea,lookingatnewtheatresthatwerebeingbuilt.Andwelearnedonethingveryquickly,theywerealllousy.ABM:Whatmakesyousaythattheywerelousy?GB:Therewasnoingressoregress.Therewasnowaytogetfromthebacktothefrontofthehouse.Itwasjust,theywerejustnotgoodtheatres,period.Sitelineswerebad.Um,thenumberofseats,way,waytoomany.Whatwouldwebedoingbuildinga10,000seattheatrehere?Who’sgoingtocome?Theyjustwerenotgoodtheatres.So,welearnedalotaboutbadtheatresbutnotalotaboutgoodtheatres.


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Butum,I…ho,ho,ho…IwasteachingacoursecalledtheatreplanningandofcourseIhadatextbook,soofcourseIknewallaboutit,atleastIcouldtalkaboutit,butthatwasaboutallIcoulddo.ButIcouldtalkaboutit.ABM:SohowdidtheprocessofdesigningQuirk,didyoueverteachthattheatredesignclassagain?GB:Oh,yes.Oh,yes.ABM:Wasiteasiertoteachafteryouhadhadtheexperience?GB:No,no.Becausenobodywantedtotakeit.Itwastoomuchwork,becausethefinalprojectwastodesignatheatreandthat’sabigjob.So,no,nobodywantedtotakeit.Anyway,wherewerewewhenIinterruptedmyself.ABM:No,itsokay.So,wearetalkingaboutwhatyouweretakingintoconsiderationwiththedesignofQuirk.Soyoufoundoutwhatbadtheatreswere…GB:Oneofthethingsthatbecameratherimportanttoalotofpeoplewasthe,whichwayitfaced…ABM:Oncampus?GB:Woulditfaceupthehill,downthehill.Thatwasveryimportanttosomepeople.Wasittome?Ididn’tcarewhichwayitfaced.Butthat’sbesidethepoint.Thepointwas,therewerepeoplewhothoughtitouttogoonewayandpeoplethatthoughtitshouldgoanotherway…ABM:Whowon?GB:Idon’tthinkanyonedid.Idon’tthinkanyonewaspleasedwiththewayitturnedout.ABM:Really?GB:Wellthewholeideawas,thatwewantedeveryonewhowenttoschoolinthatUniversitycommunitytowalkbythetheatre.Andtoseewhatwasplayingtonight,ornextweekornextmonthorwhatever.Butthatneverhappened.ABM:Right,itisverymuchontheoutskirtsofcampus,rightsortofwhereitisplaced.GB:Right,butthatissortofwhatwewantedtohavehappen.Anditjustpainneverhappened.


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ABM:Sowhataresomeoftheotherthingsthatdidn’tturnoutquitehowyouwantedthemto?GB:Well,Iwanttotellyousomethingyouknow.YouknowEastern.YouknowEasternprettywell…neverhasenoughmoneytodothingsright,never.Youhaveheardthat?ABM:IhaveexperienceditandIhaven’tevenbeentherethatlong…GB:Whenthetheatrewasfinished,thebuilderscameover…andincidentallywecouldtalkaboutthemtooifyouwantto…andsaidfor1,000dollarswecaninsuretherooffor20years.AndEasternsaidwecan’taffordthat…andwithintwoweekstherooffellin,completelyfellin.Alltheseatsinthebackofthetheatrehadtobereplaced,floorhadtobereplaced,theceiling,itallcamein.ABM:Twoweeks?GB:Yeah.ABM:Thatisincredible,Ihaveneverheardthatstorybefore.GB:WellIwilltellyouanotherone.Somehow,inordertosavemoney…againsavingmoney…theyhiredthreedifferentcompaniestosupplyHVTE[HVAC],youknowhotcold,whatever….wellyouknowok,theydid.Well,itsneverworked.Imean,theydon’tworktogether.Theyjustdon’tworkperiod.TheheatingintherehasALWAYSbeenawful.Warm,inonespot,coldinanotherspot,anditisalwaysgoingtobethatway.Fora1,000dollarstheycouldhavetakencareofthewholething,theydidn’t.ABM:Soletmeaskyou,having,Imeanyouwentthroughthatprocessofdesigningthespace,andseeingthespacebuilt,andseeingthefolliesoftheUniversityprettyearlyoninyourtenurethere.GB:Yes.ABM:Whydidn’tyougo?Whatmadeyoustay?GB:Ilikedit.Ilikedithere.Imean,Ilikedthesizeoftheschool,whichatthattimewasquitesmallanduh,IenjoyedwhereIwasandIenjoyedwhatIwasdoing.WhywouldIwanttoleave?ABM:Sure,thatmakessense.Iwasjustcurious.Otherpeopleofadifferentpersuasionwouldhavewantedtowashtheirhandsofthesituation.GB:YeahSure.Manymay,many,many,peoplehavesaidtome,whyintheworldwouldyoustaythere!CauseIwantedto,dumbquestion.


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ABM:ThatkindoffollowsintothenextquestionIhave,uhwhichwasyoucametotheNormalCollegewhentheenrollment,was,whatwasitaroundthen,2800students?GB:About3,000ABM:Andthentherewasthatveryrapidgrowthofthestudentpopulationwhereitwaslike,everyotheryearitisdoublinginsize.SoIwouldliketoaskyouwhatthatwasliketobeoncampusandtheimpactonyourteaching…GB:Wellofcourse,everythingchanged.Firstofall,wehadtwogroupsofpeoplethatweremovingin.Onewasthegroupthatwashiding,andtheothergroupiswhateveritis.Anduh,theCanadianhiderswereallovertheplace,whynotanduh,theothergroupwastheretoo.ABM:Sowhenyousaythehiders,youaretalkingaboutpeoplethatwereenrollingincollegesothattheywouldn’tbedrafted?GB:Wouldn’tbedrafted,exactly.ABM:Doyouthinkthatiswhatamountedfortherapidgrowthinenrollment?GB:Ithinkthataccountedforsomeofit.Ithinksomeofitisaccountedforbyotherthings.Likethebuildingtodormitoriessothattherewassomeplaceforpeopletoliveiftheydidn’twanttocommute.Wehavetorememberthatthiswasacommuterschoolandthenboom,boom,boomallofasuddenherecomethedormitories.Actuallytherewerefouralmostimmediatelyandthenthosedreadfultowersgotbuilt.Theyareawful.ABM:TheyarestillawfulGB:Butthatotheronethatisbuiltbackofourhouseisagreatthing,Ithink.ABM:YouaretalkingabouttheApartments,right?SotheonesifyouaredrivingtowardHuronParkwaytheyareontheleftofOakwooddrive?GB:Yes.Thosearefine.Andiftheyhaddonethatinthefirstplace,wewouldhavebeenalotbetteroff.But,theydidn’t.ABM:Sowhentherewasabigboominstudentsenrolled.Didyouseealotofchangesinyourdepartment?GB:Whatdoyoumeanbychanges?ABM:Faculty,courseofferings,programs,interest…


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GB:Faculty,almostnone.Almost,almostnoincreaseinfaculty.Whathappenedinsomecaseswasthatsomeonewhowasateachingassistantbecameastephigherandgotalittlebitmoremoneyandtaughtanotherclass.Or,asonedepartmentheadsaidtome,ifyouhaven’tgotenoughtodoIwillgiveyouanotherclass.ABM:Sotheywereessentially,stop-gapthroughlecturers…adjunctfaculty.Notsodissimilartohowitisnowinsomedepartments.GB:OfcourseIdon’tknowaboutthat.Butanyway,wedidstrugglethroughthatandofcoursetheUniversityblossomedintermsofsizetheybuiltRynearsonstadiumwithoutafootballteam,buttheybuiltitanywayandthereissits,empty.ABM:WellcauseyouarequitethefootballfanIhear?GB:Ilovefootball.Butthereisonethingaboutfootballthatmakesitfun.ABM:Thecrowd?GB:No.Winning.Thatissomethingwedon’tunderstand.Weneverwin.Infactwelosemorethananyotherteaminthecountry.Butthatisbesidethepoint,thepointisitain’tnofunwhentheyloseallthetime.ABM:Thatisvery,verytrue.Sodidyounoticeadifferencewhenyouwerethereintheearlyyearsthatyouknewalltheotherfacultythatwereoncampus.GB:OfcourseIdid!Iwouldseethemoncampusandwewouldstopandtalk.NowIseethemoncampusandIdon’tevenknowwhotheyare.ABM:Becauseitisnotjustthestudentbodythatchanges…Imeanthewholedynamismoftheuniversitychanges.Therelationshipswithotherfaculty,administrator.GB:WellIkneweveryadministratorintheearlyyears.Ikneweveryfaultymember,wewouldhavelunchtogethereveryday,almosteveryday.Ihatetothinkofwhatwehadthatplaceislonggone.Anywaythatisbesidethepoint,thepointisIkneweverybodyandeverybodyknewme,itwasacongenialatmosphere,veryhappy,veryfriendly,veryhappythere.Andthenthemobscame.ABM:Whichmobs?TheMobsofstudents,orthemobsofunrest?GB:bothABM:Yeah,sothatkindofthenextquestionthatIhad,whichistowhatdegreewasyourwork,eitherintheclassroomortheproductionsyouchoseimpactedbythesocial,racialandpoliticalunrest…


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GB:ahundredpercentABM:ahundredpercent…GB:Wehadshootingsoncampus,wehad…Icameoutofrehearsalonenightandfoundatleasttwofeetofglassalloverthecampus.AllthewindowshadbeenbrokenineverybuildingandVicePresidentGreen(JamesE.Green)wasouttherewithashovel,tryingtomakeroomsothatpeoplecouldwalkthrough,thepolicewerethere,thearmywasthere,wehadthestatepolice,wehavetheUnitedStatesarmy,themarineswereeventhere,theycameinonairplanesanddroppeddown.Andwecameoutofrehearsal,herewewere,therewereabout15ofusstandingoutsideofQuirkanduh,JimGreensuddenlyappearedhesaid,“WhatthehellamIgoingtodowithyouguys?”Isaid,“Jim,I’mokayifyouwantmetogohome.”Hesaid“okay,let’sdothat.”Andsowewenthome.Ohyes,definitelythereactionthere.Theybrokeeverywindowoncampusthatnight.HowtheydiditIdon’tknow,buttheydiditverywell.ABM:Wow,doyourememberthegroupthatwasresponsibleforthatorwhatitwasinresponseto?36:26TimeStampGB:NoIdon’t.Idon’trememberparticularlywhatitwas,itwasageneralthinganyway.Itwasn’tabing,pop,itwasn’tthat.Butitcertainlywastheotherthing.ABM:Right,wasthataboutthesametimethattherewasthesitinatBooneHall,wheretheyclosedtheadministrativebuilding?GB:Itwasindeed.ABM:OkayGB:Infactitmayhavejustbeenexactlythattime.ABM:Whatwasthatlike,goingtocampus?Wasthereageneralfeelingofunsafeness?GB:Ohyeah,ohyeah,verydefinitely.Wellyouknow,ifyouwerewalkingdownthestreetyouwouldbestoppedbysomebodyandtheywouldwanttoseeyouridentification,theywouldwanttoseeifyouhadanyfirearms.ABM:Itislikeapolicestate,thatiscrazy.GB:Yes.Itdidhappen.Ithappened.ABM:Didyouhaveanystudentswhooptedtoleavetheuniversitybecauseofwhatwashappening?


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GB:NotthatIknowof.Theremayhavebeen,butIdon’tknow.ABM:Doyourememberanyfacultyleavingbecauseofwhatwashappening?GB:Oh,ah,CertainlyIdo.ButIamnotgoingtonamethem.AMB:Youdon’thaveto.Iwasjustcurious.GB:Yes,therewasfacultyonbothsides.Therewasfacultythatagreedwiththestudents,therewasfacultythatagreedwiththefaculty.Andneverthetwainshallmeet.TherewerefaultythatsupportedthestudentsbreakingtheUniversityapartiftheycould.Theywoulddoeverythingtheycould.IcouldnameyouatleasteightfacultymemberswhowouldhavedoneanythingtogetridofEasternMichigan.AMB:really?GB:Icouldhave.Icoulddothat,doyouwantmeto?No,Iamnotgoingto.Don’tworry…ButIcould.AMB:Iwouldn’taskyoutodothat…GB:Youcanask,itwon’thappen.Someofthemarestilllivinghere.InfactIseeoneeveryonceinawhile…Iduck.No,itis,quiteseriously,therewereplentyoffacultythatwantedtogetridoftheUniversity.ButitwasitjusttheUniversity,orwasitthiswholeideaofwhatwasgoingonintheworld.Ithinkitwasprobablyboth.Butyouknowinmanyways,forsomeofthosefaculty,Easternwasasymbolofsuccess.Andwecan’thavethat…ABM:So,successinwhatway,asymbolofwhatkindofsuccess?GB:Idon’tunderstandthequestion.ABM:Wellyoujustsaidthatforthem,Easternwasasymbolofsuccess.Sowasitthesuccessofaninstitutionandbureaucracy?Orthatitwas…GB:AsymbolofthePresident’ssocialsituation,whichwasnotwhattheywanted.ABM:AndyouaretalkingofPresidentSponberg,PresidentoftheUniversityorPresidentoftheUnitedStates?GB:IamnottalkingaboutSponbergatall,InevermentionedSponberg.ABM:IknowbutyoujustsaidPresident…andIdidn’tknowifyouweretalkingPresidentoftheUniversityatthattime…


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GB:No.IamnottalkingaboutSponberg.HoweverIknewSponbergquitewell.ABM:WhatwasyourtakeonSponberg?Doyoumindsharing?GB:Welllet’sjustsay,Iwasn’tabigfan.Infact…well…ABM:Thiscanbeofftherecord.GB:Okay…[Pausedrecording40:40-41:44]ABM:WouldyoumindmyaskingwhatyourtakeonElliot’s[EugeneElliot]departurewas?GB:Iwillbeveryhappytotellyou.IwilltellyoutwothingsaboutGeneElliot,threethings.One.Hewasagentleman.Numbertwo,helivedoncampus.Numberthree,hebuiltahouseoflocalwoods,hewasagreatgardenerandaveryclosefriendofmineandIlovedhimdearly.AndIthinkyouprobablyknowsomeoneelsewholikeshimprettywelltoo…right?ABM:Right(inreferencetoourmutualfriendandemeritusfacultyReinhardWittke)GB:HewasareallygoodPresident.Whydidhegetfired?Because,Icantellyouexactlywhyhegotfired…ABM:Do.GB:Cause…doesitendupinthere?ABM:ItwillbeofftherecordIpromise[pausedrecordingat42:48-44:25]ABM:WellthosewerethequestionsthatIhadfortoday.Idon’twanttobeinconsiderateofyourtime.Ifyouhaveotherthings…ifyouwanttokeeptalking…GB:Ifyouwanttoaskmesomemore,Iwilltrytoanswer.ABM:Isthereanythingthatyou…letmeponderbecause…whatIfindmostinterestingabouttheworkthatIdo,islookingthroughtherecordsofthoseearliestyears[thatyouwereoncampus]becausewehavethepapersofElliotandSponberg,andNelsonthattherewas,thatthereappearedtobe,alotofthoughtfulnessonthepartofthem,intermsofresearchingandinformingthemselvesbeforetheymadedecisions.Atleastthatiswhatseemstobereflectedinthedocumentationtheyleft


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behind.SoIguessmyquestiontoyouwouldbe.Didyoufeelasafacultymemberoncampus,listenedto,thattherewasaresponsetoconcerns…whetheritwastherapidincreaseinenrollment,ortheunrestthatwashappeningoncampus.Imeanwhatweresomeonetheconversationsthatweretakingplace,whetheritwasamongstallofthefaculty,oramongstadministrators.Iknowitiskindofaloadedquestion.GB:Well,truthofthematteris,peoplewerescaredtodeath.Theyreallywerefrightened.Becauseallthisjunkthatwasgoingon…what’sgoingtohappen,whatisgoingtohappen.SupposetheywillburndowntheUniversity?Theycould.Yestheycould,theycouldblowitup,ofcoursetheycould.Willtheydoit?Idon’tknow.Therewasthatunrestanditwasvery,veryuncomfortable.Butontheotherhand,weall,poweredthroughitsomehow.Idon’tknowhow,butwedid.Notverywellmaybe,butwedidthebestwecould.ABM:Whendidyouhitthatmoment,ifyouremember,whenyougo‘Okay,Ithinkwearegoingtobeokay?’Itisalltoourbacksnow,andwecanstarttomoveforward.Wasthereapointintime?GB:Yeah,Ithinkso.Butitisfrommyownexperience.Ithasnothingtodowithanybodyelse.Itwasinthe…bicentennial.Thattomewasthestoppingplace.Why?Becausesomuchwasgoingoninthetheatreatthatpointthatwassogood,Ithought,thatitwasgoingtohelp.AndIthinkitdid,butIdon’tknowthatitdid.ABM:Whatgoodthingswerehappeninginthetheatreatthattime?GB:WewereproducingagroupoffiveofthebestAmericanplayseverwritten.ABM:Canyoulistthefiveforme?GB:Probablynot?ABM:Canyoutry?GB:Lauracould,butIcouldn’t.ABM:Andthatwouldhavebeenthe1976season.Whowerethefacultyinthetheatredepartmentatthattime?GB:Faculty?Uh,thiswouldbein76…JimGousseff,ParkerZellers,meofcourse,wouldtherebeanyothers…ParkerZellers…ohyes,heisinLouisvillenow,BobMcElya[MitchellR.McElya]…whoelsewouldbethere.ABM:WasJinnyKoste[VirginiaG.Koste]oncampusbythen?GB:JinnyKoste,wasdefinitelyoncampusanddefinitelypartofthefaculty.InfactJinnyKostewasalwaysapartofthefaculty.Didyouknowher?


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ABM:NoIdidn’t.ButIhaveworkedcloselywithPatZimmerandtheDramaandTheatrefortheYoungprogramandworkingwiththemtodocumenttheirveryimportantandlonghistoryoncampus.GB:Shewasneverasimportantassheshouldhavebeen.WhatdoImeanbythat?Sheshouldhavebeengivenanhonorarydegree,sheshouldhavebeengivenallkindsofthings.ShewastheoutstandingdirectorofChildren’stheatreinthecountryandthey…blewheraway.Whybecausethedepartmentheaddidn’tlikeherthat’swhy.ABM:Whowasthedepartmenthead?GB:Iamnottalkingaboutthat…ABM:Ok,Iwillnotaskagain…GB:Butthatisexactlywhathappened.Iwenttothedepartmentheadandsaid‘Shehasgottogetanhonorarydegree,damnit!’andhesaid‘shegivesusamilliondollarswewillgiveittoher.’Ofcourseshedidn’thaveamilliondollarsinherwholelifetime.ABM:Ofcoursenot,shewasaprofessoratEastern.Whichoneofushasamilliondollars?GB:Notme.ABM:Notmeeither.DoyoumindifIaskyouaboutyourtimeinMadison…GB:Askmeanythingyouwant.ABM:Iamsocuriousaboutyourworkasamagicianandyourinterestinthecircus.GB:Whyareyouinterestedinthat?ABM:Well,whenIdidmygraduateworkatUWMadison,IworkedcloselywiththefolksatCircusWorldMuseum,andInotedinoneofyourarticlesthatyouhadanexpansiveCircuscollectionandaninterestincircuscultureandhaddonesomeworkwiththem.SothatiswhyIwascurious.GB:SoyouworkedwithCircusWorldMuseum?ABM:InBaraboo…GB:Whatagreatplacetowork.Iusedtogoupthereinthewinterwhentheywerepaintingandjustwatchthem.Thoseguysweregeniuses.


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ABM:Theonesthatwerepaintingthelargecanvases.GB:Yeah.Andthevehicles,thewonderfulvehiclesthattheybuilt.Iwentthereeverysummerandspenttwoorthreeweeksthereeverysummer,andIhadfriendsthatwereperformingthere,thathelpedtoo.Causethealldidaperformance,oneinthemorningandoneintheafternoonandtheyweregoodperformances.Um,verygoodfriendofminewasthereforseveralyears.WayneFranzen?Hewaskilledbyatigerwhileperforming.ABM:Whatawaytogo…GB:Infrontofachildren’saudience.Thatwasevenworse,thepoorguy.Wellanyway.IspentalotoftimeatCircusWorldIwrotealotofarticlesforthem,IwrotealotofarticlesforCircusmagazines,Iwasamemberofthecircushistoricalsociety,amemberofthecircus…well,Ilovecircus.ButyouknowafterWaynewaskilleditkindofwentdownthedrain…thatreallykilleditforme.Sawiton,watchingtelevisiononenightandthereitwastheheadline.Oh,andIrecognizedthevehiclesandthought,ohhe’sdeadandhewas.very.Deadbeforetheycouldgettohim.Butthatisbesidethepoint.Askyournextquestion,thatIcanmaybeanswer.ABM:WellIamcurious,thatinterestinthetheatre.Didthatinterestinfluenceyourclasses,theproductionsyouchose,yoursetdesign.GB:Well…ABM:Orwasitjustasidehobby?GB:IguessIdon’t’reallyunderstandwhatyouareafter…trymeagain.ABM:Soum,let’sseeifthereisawaytogettothepoint.Ihaveaninterestinquilting,butitdoesn’tnecessarilyinterestmywork.ButIalsohaveaninterestinorganization,whichverymuchinfluencestheworkthatIdo.Somyquestiontoyouis.Wasyourinterestincircus,andcircusculture,andtheartistry,didthatinfluencetheworkthatyoudidinthetheater?GB:Iamsurethatitdid.Now,youjustbroughtupsomethingthatIthinkisreally,reallyimportant.Thatsomehowcircuspostersareart!Andtheyneedtobepreservedandsomeareandsomeareplaingone.Andtheywillnevereverbereplaced,theycan’tbe.Ithinkthatisawful.Ithinkcircuspostersareart.Period.Greatart?Wonderfulart?Goodart?Yeah.ABM:Wellartanditsbeautyandimportanceisalwaysintheeyeofthebeholder.ButIthinkthatisalsotrueoftheatreposters.


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GB:Exactly!Whyshouldtheybeanydifferent.Whatarethey?Catchpeople,grabthem!ABM:Sodidyoudesignsomeofthoseearlytheatreposters.Wasthatpartofyourresponsibilityastheproduceranddirectoroftheplaysoncampus?GB:Yes.ButIcan’tnameany.YeahIdid.Intheearlydays.Wemadeourownsilkscreenposters.Wemadethemall.ABM:Whoiswe?GB:Myfirstwife.ABM:Notyouandanotherstudent,oryouandalecturer.Itwasafamilyaffairofgettingthewordout?GB:No,wehadabasementfilledwithposters.Dayafterdayafterday,becausetheywerealldrying.ABM:Ihopeyouhadabigbasement.GB:Itwasn’tthatbig.ABM:Whatisyourfavoritemagictrick?Youdon’thavetotellmethesecretbehindit…GB:Well,itisavery,veryoldone.Butitisavery,verygoodone.Itisthewomaninthebox.Inwhichpointayoungladyisintroducedandshestandsontopofabox.Shegetsherhandstiedtogether.Shegetsherfeettiedtogether.Thentheylowerherintothebox.Thentheyclose…no,theydon’tclosethecurtainyet,thecurtainstillstaysopen…andthenthey…nothentheyclosethebox.Sheisintheboxnow,lockedinthebox.Youready,itcountsonetwothree,onthreethecurtainopensandsheisstandingontopofthebox,stilltied.Andtheboxisstilltied.ABM:Thatisagoodmagictrick.GB:Itisavery,veryoldone.AndtherearetwovariationsonitwhichIain’tgonnatellyouneither.Buttheyarebothreally,reallygood…itisagreattrick,andthat’swhatitisagreattrick.It’snotmagic.It’satrick,butitsagreatone.ABM:Wastherealwaysagroupgaspintheaudiencewhenshewouldappear?GB:Ofcourse,ofcourse.Causeithappensjustboom,boom[clap,clap]justthatfast.That’sallittakes…bing,bing[clap,clap]…andsheisout,ofcourseshehasbeenoutforalongtime,shehasbeenstandingbehindthecurtainallthattime.Justamatterofdroppingthecurtain.Buttheydon’tknowthat,butyouwilltellthem.


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ABM:No,yoursecretissafewithme.Thishasbeen…GB:ButIdon’twantyoutotellyouknowwho…ABM:No,Iwouldnevertellhim(Wittke)GB:Hewouldhavetoomuchfunplayingsomethingwithit.ABM:HaveyouseenReinhardlately?GB:No,howishedoing?ABM:Heisokay,hiseyesightisprettypoor,butheisstillathome.Hehasacoupleofhiccupsoverthewinterforacoupleofshortstays.Buthegetsaroundprettywell,whichIthinkisgoodandhehasagoodcaretaker.Heisorganizinghisstuffforme,sohehasapurposewhichisgoodandhisgrandsonishelpinghimout,soIthinkthatisgoodtoo.GB:Whatagreatguyheis…ABM:Heis.GB:Soluckytohavehimhere.Ihopesomehowhecanbememorializedhere.ABM:Wearedoingourpartasbestwecaninthearchivestopreservethetravelprogramthathedidthatwassoremarkable…GB:YesitwasABM:Andthenjusttheteachingthathedid,hehasaverylonghistorysuchasyourself.Andalotofalumniwhohavenothingbutwonderfulaccolades,whichIhearisthesameforyou.WithmaybetheexceptionofyourHistoryoftheTheatreclass…Ihearthatclasswaslegendary.Anycommenttothat?GB:Iamnotalegend.Iamanoldmansittingheretryingtostayaliveforawhile.Butthatisbesidethepoint,thepointisheisagreatguyandweweresoluckytohavehimandweareluckyheisstillwithus.ABM:Ithinkhewouldsaythesameaboutyou.GB:Buthewilltellyouallaboutthepresidents.ABM:Hehassharedalittlebitwithme.GB:Yeah,buthelovedthefirstguy….he[Elliot]wasarealgentleman.


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ABM:EveryonethatIhavetalkedtothatknewElliothasnothingbutreallywonderfulthingstosayabouthim.Veryaboveboard…GB:Somebodyusedtoservebeer…youhaveafriendwhousedtoservebeer,inabar…youknowthat.HewenttoElliotandsaid,‘Mr.President,asyouknowIworkinabar,andIknowyouareaveryreligiouspersonandIshouldprobablyshouldn’tdothat.’Elliotlookedathimandsaid‘doasyouwanttodo.’ThatiswhatImeanbysayingheisagentleman.Hecouldhavesaidno,yougottoquitthatbutnope,hedidn’tdothat.Hewassmarterthanthat.ABM:Yeah,Iamsureheknewgoodeggswhenhesawthem.Otherwisehewouldn’thavehiredyouboth.GB:Ohsure…[paused1:03:41-1:05:00,discussionofsettingupareturnvisit]GB:Whateveryouwanttodowecando.ABM:Okay,Ijustwanttoberespectfulofyourtime.GB:Mytimedoesn’tamounttoanything.Itisveryshortandthatisallthereistoit.Solet’sjustitandbedonewithit.ABM:Thisisreallylovely.Ireallyliketalkingtoyou,sothankyouforlettingmedothis.GB:Happytodoit.Anymoregoodquestions?Yougotanastyone,givemeonegoodnastyone.ABM:Wellyouwon’tansweranyofmynastyquestions…GB:Okay,pickone.ABM:WhatwasthebiggestscandalyoueverworkedthroughatEastern.GB:Whichpresident?ABM:PickoneoftheSeven[Birdtaughtundersevendifferentadministrators]Kirkpatrickdoesn’tcount.GB:Okay,whoistheonewhotookthejobinordertogethiswifedriedout?ABM:Ihaveneverheardthat!Ihavenoidea.


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GB:Well,therewasonethere.Andthatisexactlywhathappened.Theyum,theGOPdraggedhiminhere,said‘dryherout’andthengetoutofhere.Andthatisexactlywhattheydiddo.ABM:Gothimin,driedheroutandthengothimoutofoffice?GB:ItworkedoutjustfinefortheGOP.Iamnotsurehowsheis,Ithinksheisdead.Iamnotsure.ABM:Thatisagoodone,Ihadneverheard…GBLandthentherewastheone,wantonemore?ABM:yeahGB:Okay.We’llhirehimspresidentifyougethimtomakeyouarosegarden.ABM:Youpersonally?GB:Yep.ABM:Sohecametocampus,heinterviewed,andtheycametoyouandsaidhewon’ttakethejobunlessyoumakehimarosegarden?GB:Thatisn’tquiteright,butitisclose.ABM:anddidyoudoit?GB:Yep.ABM:Wasthattheresidencethatwasoncampus,ortheresidencethattheybuilt.Oristhattootelling…GB:Itwasoncampus.ABM:Howmanyrosesdidyouplant.GB:WellIgotthemwholesale[laughs]ButIthinkIplanted24.ABM:Youhadtobuytheroses,oryougotreimbursedIhope.GB:IboughttherosesbutIdidn’tpayanythingforthem,becausethecompanygavethemtomebecauseIknewthecompanyverywell.Weweregoodfriends,becauseIgrewalotofroses.Igrewoverthreehundred.


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ABM:ThepicturesIhaveseenarespectacularGB:Theyain’tspectacularbutanyway.Thatdidhappen.Icanplantarosegardensowecanhaveapresidentwhoopee.ABM:Wasitworthit?GB:Theyalldied…ABM:AlltherosesGB:Why?Becausetheplantdepartmentwouldnottakecareofthem.Theywouldn’twaterthem,theywouldn’tdoanything.ABM:Didanybodylosetheirjoboverit…obviouslynotyou…butanybodyoverinplant?GB:Inthefirstplace,ourummaintenancestructurehereain’tsohot.ITisprettyawful.Itisbetterthanitusedtobe…ABM:WellIguessiftheroofofyourtheatrecollapsedinthefirsttwoweeksitwouldhavetobebetter.GB:YesABM:Nowaytogobutup…GB:Youareright.Buttheproblemis,wehaveneverreallyhadagooddirectorofthatprogram.BillSmart,didyouknowBillSmart?Hewasdirectorforyearsandweallcalledhimnotso…becausehecouldn’tdoanythingright.Anduh…theyhavenevertakencareofthingsliketheyshould,Ibelieve.ButIthinkthecampslooksbetternowthatithasinalongtime.ABM:Ithinkitdoes.JohnDonoganhasdoneagoodjobcleaningupthecampuswiththeresourcesthathehas,whichistosay,notalot.Butyeah…theyareslowingtryingtoimprovesomeofthebuildingsthathaven’tbeenimproveduponforaverylongtime.GB:Welltheyneedtobe.ABM:Ofcoursetheydo.ItisembarrassingtowalkprospectivestudentsthroughStronghallwhentheflooriscrumblingunderneathyourfeet.GB:Butontheotherhandyoucanwalkthemthroughthetheatreinthatbuildingtoo…thereisonethere.Everybuildinghasatheatreinit.Someofthemarequite


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smallbut.Allmostallofthemhaveanelevatedstageofsomesort….andifyoupokearoundyouwillfindthem.ABM:Everysinglebuilding?GB:Ithinkyouwillfindthattobetrue.NowWelchmightbeanexception.IamnotsureaboutWelch.Idon’tremember…weusedtodopostersthere…yeahthereisanelevatedstagethere.Sure,becausewehadpostersalloverit.Sure,wehadtomakeourposters,whattheheck…ABM:WhereistheelevatedstageinWelch,doyourecall?GB:Well,areyoufamiliarwiththelightoverthecenteroftheroom…thatiswhereitwas.ABM:ohokay…GB:Youshouldprobablyfindsomeremnantsofthatsomewhere.[Paused1:12:00-1:13:28fornurseattendant]GB:Ihopethishasn’tbeenawasteoftimeforyou.ABM:Nothishasactuallybeenveryenjoyableforme.-Finished1:13:32-

P. George Bird Oral History Interview, 2016 April 19

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Transcript of P. George Bird Oral History Interview, 2016 April 19