Oral History interview with Bobby Prentice & Paul Prentice...Oral History interview with Bobby...

Transcript of oral history interview with Bob & Paul Prentice (edited) of 33

Oral History interview with

Bobby Prentice & Paul Prentice

Date: 7 June 2018

Interviewer: Alix Gallagher

Q: This is an oral history interview with Bobby Prentice and Paul Prentice on Thursday 7 June

2018. Also present are Eva Tausig from Thames Festival Trust and Sarah Callian. The

interview is taking place at Tower Millennium Pier. Can we start by asking you, Bobby, to

state your full name and date of birth?

BP: Oh, I don’t know about my date of birth, but my full name is Robert Anthony Prentice, my date

of birth is 20 March 1953.

Q: And can you tell us where you were born and your parents’ names?

BP: I was born in the London Hospital in Whitechapel, now called the Royal London, and my

mother was Eileen Prentice, her maiden name was Maskell, and my father is Robert Charles

John Prentice.

Q: Thank you. Paul, could you tell us your full name, date of birth and where you were born

please?

PP: It’s Paul Prentice, and that’s the 26th of the 3rd ’55, and I was born at the London Hospital at

Whitechapel.

Q: What were your parents’ professions?

PP: My mother, the last job she had she worked for Midland Bank, which ended up HSBC. And

my father was a waterman and lighterman, and his last job was actually working on the

pleasure boats.

Q: And where did you go to school?


PP: I went to school at--, originally when we lived in Ockenden I went to Shaw’s Junior School. I

then went on to Culverhouse, and then the family we moved back to Wapping where we

originated from and I went to Stepney Green School.

Q: And Bobby, was that the same for you?

BP: It was exactly the same, yeah, it was exactly the same.

Q: What were you interested in when you were at school?

BP: I’d like to say girls, but it was an all boys’ school unfortunately. I mean, you know, how

unlucky can you be to go to through senior school, two senior schools, all boys? I was

interested in sport, I wasn’t really interested in the things that I should have been like maths

and English, which proved that in later years. But I spent a lot of time at sport doing running,

never very good at ball games but I did a lot of running, and then I got involved in rowing

which really took a lot of my life up.

Q: How old were you when you got involved in the rowing?

BP: I was probably, firstly at the age of about ten my father took me down to watch local club

racing on the Thames and I thought well this sounds good and I ended up a coxswain, I

started to be a coxswain down at Poplar & Blackwall. And it moved on from there really. I

started to get out rowing, some of the older members would take you out and then try to teach

the coxswains the rowing. And I suppose I started rowing pretty seriously, I got a bit bigger

and I started rowing properly at about 14, 15.

Q: And Paul, were you sporty at school or did you have different interests?

PP: Not really, I mean--,

BP: You never spent a lot of time there.


PP: Sport-wise I did wrestling and swimming, but to be honest I wasn’t a great lover at school [both

laugh].

Q: Was there a lot of talk about the river in your house?

PP: Yes, oh yes, because when we moved back to Wapping our grandfather, he lived just across

the road, and our uncle, my dad’s brother, he also was a lighterman and he just lived around

the corner. And on many occasions we all used to have a meet up, especially with the

grandfather because he used to pop over and see us and vice versa, so there was always

things being spoken about the river.

Q: Can you remember anything in particular?

PP: Well when I actually got apprenticed and started working afloat, I was lucky enough that my

father, he apprenticed obviously my brother first and then me, and we all ended up working for

the same company, which was Mercantile Lighterage. And there was a few occasions where

I’d popped in to see my grandparents while I was actually doing a job and my grandfather

would obviously give his advice where he used to say to me, “You’d better just have that one

cup of tea and dripping because you’d better get back, the tide’s rising,” you know, and then to

other things.

Q: Bobby, is there anything about your grandfather that you’d like to share?

BP: Oh blimey, yeah, cor, how long have you got?

Q: In relation to the river [laughs].

BP: Yes, oh I wish he was still here. No, he was... how can I say, it was such an experience being

with him, I mean as a little kid going out and working his boats with him. And in those days the

decline had started in the cargo side of the river, which was sad and to someone like him that

had been on the general cargo side for years and all his life really, and he obviously eventually

retired from lighterage through age, but I remember him being at work, I unfortunately never

worked with him because he’d retired by the time I started work, but he actually bought my first

sculling boat.


Q: So he really encouraged you on the rowing side as well as your career?

BP: Oh absolutely, absolutely, yeah, as well as my father, but my grandfather was really intent on

buying that first sculling boat, which was a second hand sculling boat which cost £100, which

was a hell of a lot of money in those days and especially to someone in their seventies, you

know?

Q: Did you ever row on the river with your father or other members of the family?

BP: Believe it or not I did actually go out, not with my grandfather but I did go out in a pair once

when my father rowed and it’s probably the only time my father actually ever rowed [laughs].

But yeah, that did actually happen down at Poplar & Blackwall, yeah. But I spent many times,

many hours in watermen’s boats with them, yeah.

Q: Paul, how did you actually get into rowing? You weren’t sporty at school but you had this

family with boats.

PP: Yes, it was when we lived in Ockenden, my dad took my brother down and I came along, and I

obviously saw what was going on and the first time I actually--, because I started as a

coxswain and the first time I steered my brother was steering a cox pair at the Medway Town

Regatta and he was steering actually Kenny Dwan who was a Doggett’s winner and Roy

Gould who actually sculled Doggett’s but he didn’t win it. And I was eight years of age and

there was a club there called City Orient from the River Lea, and our club captain was Johnny

Skelton and City Orient’s captain was Jimmy O’Neill, and Jimmy O’Neill asked Johnny

Skelton, the Poplar captain, if he had a spare coxswain, and Johnny being Johnny, he said,

“Here you are, there’s one here,” and I’d never even steered a boat in my life. But we were

racing against the Poplar crew, so I obviously lost them the race. And that was my step into

coxing, and I carried on as a coxswain at Poplar up to--, because I was very small I was still

steering at, what, 15 or 16 wasn’t I?

BP: Mmm.

PP: Although I was rowing as well, but I could still jump in the coxswain seat to steer crews.

BP: Sorry to interrupt, but the man that Paul has just mentioned, Johnny Skelton, he sculled

Doggett’s, he was another man that sculled Doggett’s.


Q: Were you both members of the same rowing clubs for a long time?

PP: Yes, yes.

BP: Yeah, at that time. Still are now, still are today.

PP: Yeah. But I don’t do any more coxing [all laugh].

BP: And he doesn’t steer any better [laughs].

Q: Shall we talk a bit about your apprenticeships now?

BP: Sure, sure.

Q: Bobby, if it doesn’t sound too obvious a question, what made you decide to do an

apprenticeship?

BP: I think what it was in those days, like most young watermen you were brought up, it was your

family life so you lived with it all the time. And when it came to the point of getting near to

leaving school people would be going oh I’m going to be an electrician, I’m going in the print,

I’m doing that and that, and so I wanted to be a lighterman. Well what’s that, you know, that’s

the first thing that people would say. And my father didn’t want me to go afloat let alone Paul

who was following on, because the decline had started and I was apprenticed in ’69 so you

know the mid-sixties started to see the decline of lighterage. And I class myself very lucky as

actually getting apprenticed, talking my dad out of different things because he wanted me to--,

he actually got me a job at Barclays Bank, so I could have ended up Bob Diamond at the time,

you know, and I’d have had a lot more money. But that didn’t happen and there was no way

that I was going to work for Barclays Bank. I liked the rowing there because they had a good

rowing club, but my father still didn’t want to apprentice me and my grandfather again stepped

in and said look, you know, you’ve just got to do it now because he’s not going to change his

mind and if you don’t do it then I’ll do it.

Q: And did your father change his mind?


BP: Oh yeah, yes he did, he did and he apprenticed me, and then Paul two... was it two years later

Paul?

PP: Yeah, because you left school at 16 and I left at 15. I did try to leave at 14 but they wouldn’t

let me [both laugh].

BP: Mum made him go back [laughs].

Q: Can you tell us a bit yourself, Paul, about what it meant to gain your freedom?

PP: It allowed you to do a lot more in the lighterage industry, but I mean the pair of us were very

lucky to work for a lighterage company. As Bob’s already said, it was gradually all dropping off

but we worked for a company wherever there was water we would take barges, because the

company had took over so many other different companies and we took their work, so you

know, every little creek we’d go up and you learned your work, you know, that’s the shame

today and it’s not the apprentices’ fault whatsoever because the work’s just not there.

Q: So even though things were in decline, you were working--,

PP: We were very lucky, we probably had the last of it.

BP: Yeah, yeah.

PP: You know, we had the last of it. And it’s such a shame because the company tried everything,

they had specialised barges built, I mean we had a barge built which was a catamaran and it

had two levels and it used to carry 601 Cortina cars, and they tried that and then it was all

over--, it worked successfully didn’t it but I think it was Silcock & Collins at the time, I don’t

think they were happy because--,

BP: They had the transporters, and of course again it was at the time that containerisation had

started, so whatever way you look at it barge movements was double-handling, you know, it

1 The actual number was 52


still had to go into a barge and it had to come out of a barge at a wharf and go somewhere

else. So you know, more often than not the cargo ended up on a lorry somewhere, and then

as I say containerisation came in in a very, very big way.

PP: The sad part about it, you’ve got the biggest motorway in the country going up and down here

and that barge I spoke about, the barge is still about and what they done once they stopped

using it as a car carrier, they cut the top off and I think you towed it out--,

BP: I towed it out with containers.

PP: How many containers did it carry, was it 60 containers?

BP: No it wasn’t as many as that, but even the big--, even the Ken barges would carry 16.

PP: 16, yeah, so I mean that--, the lorry can only take one of the big ones, so you think what you

would take off the road. But no one, because I think by then they’d sold all the places off

along the river, built all these wonderful apartments and whatever so there was nowhere for it

to go.

BP: Yes, well I think what happened is we did get involved, the company did get involved in

containerisation, at the time and for many years Mercantile did all of Ford’s, the motor

company work, and at the time the big plant in Dagenham was still producing cars and a

number of different cars, and car spares was called CKD, it was liked cars knocked down and

in case work, and that would go in pen barges and then it would go to the West India Docks,

Tilbury Docks, the Royal Docks. Of course as the docks started to close down and

containerisation again came in, Ford’s did a deal and the CKD started going in containers, and

for a little while we would take these containers from Ford’s at Dagenham down to Tilbury and

then they would go onto the berth there and then be lowered into the big container ships and

go again all round the world. And as Paul said, those barges would take 16 containers each

and a tug would tow six of those barges down, so it’s a lot of containers off the road and

surprisingly we were told it didn’t pay [laughs]. So that was the end of that.

Q: Bobby, when you were an apprentice did you have a sense of all of this change happening

and did it make you question should I have gone to Barclays, am I doing the right thing?


BP: No, Barclays was never a thought in my mind, it never was. No, I never--, I loved it all the way

through, and I think yeah you can start to see things go and when you see companies around

you, big companies finishing, packing up, you think oh what’s going to happen, but then we

would take some of their work and you didn’t really think that it was ever going to end, but of

course in 1982 it did and our company folded. Which it was a shame because it was a lovely

job, to me it was a lovely job and I job I enjoyed doing.

PP: But we were lucky because we were what they called registered workers so we were all part of

the National Labour Board system, so although a lighterage company would pack up, you still

had a job to go to although it wasn’t lightering, we were sent down to Tilbury Dock to become

dockers. And we even had to go to school to learn to be a docker.

Q: After all that seven years.

PP: Yeah but it only took two weeks. But saying that, we met some real wonderful people, and it’s

in my mother’s side of the family because her family they were all dockers and stevedores so

you know, and actually I used my uncle’s hook, the docker’s hook, and I think I done more

graft with it than he did in 40-odd years [laughs].

BP: But it was an experience, it was an experience.

PP: It was, and we met some really, really good people. And, make no mistake about it, there’s a

skill to what they do. And some of those guys down there, they were in their sixties some of

them and were grafters, you see them graft like, you know.

BP: And they were prepared to help you and they were prepared to show you.

PP: Yeah, and show you, yeah, it was a good experience. We had 18 months, as I say, in Tilbury

Dock, West African Terminals, and then we were lucky enough to get picked up and it was just

a coincidence that Bob went first I think, a week in front of me, and we went to Cory which was

actually all part of like Mercantile Lighterage who we did work for, it was all owned by Ocean

Shipping and so we ended up working back for Ocean Shipping but through the National

Labour Board. So we ended up working for Cory’s taking all the rubbish out of London, and in

them days we used to go down to Pitsea Creek with it and Mucking Flats wasn’t it. But now

that’s containerised. Which is a good thing.


Q: So in 2018 Paul, what would you say being a waterman means to you?

PP: It’s... what can I say.

BP: It’s changed [laughs].

PP: Yes it’s changed and people have changed obviously. You’ve still got characters but nowhere

near the characters what you had in lightering and in the dock system as well. But it seems

now we’ve got an influx of people working out on the river now and to them it’s just a job, but

to us it’s in our blood. It’s like the River Thames running through our veins if you want to say.

BP: It’s a way of life really, yeah.

PP: I mean it’s generation after generation.

BP: I know we think of the tradition part of it because we’ve always been involved in Watermen’s

and gone through the licensing and gone through the apprenticeship of it, and things change,

things change in life, of course they do. It’s not always for the best, and some is. So there’s a

mixture of everything out there now. And I think what I notice more than ever is that people--,

in the movement and driving boats on the river people don’t always see the same as what we

were brought up to see, i.e. to help one another, to understand what the other person is doing

or what the other boat is doing, and I think that is actually one of the big things on the river that

we lack today. But as I say, things change, we still drive boats, it’s what we’ve done for--, well

the Watermen’s Company is over 500 years now since the act of parliament, there was

watermen long before then, there’s watermen going back to the days of the Romans that

worked the river, so we’ve always worked here and hopefully we will continue to work here.

Q: Thank you. Let’s move on now to Doggett’s.

BP: Oh dear.

Q: Yes, and where you might have been working thinking more about yourself, not necessarily

thinking about the other person for once, for that little bit. But we’re interested to know about

preparation for what’s a really arduous, massive event, and maybe Bobby do you want to go

first and talk about how you prepared for Doggett’s?


BP: When Doggett’s came along I mean I was, if you like, preparing for Doggett’s since the age

16, when I was apprenticed I knew I was going to scull Doggett’s, I knew basically what year I

was going to scull it. I was going to use the word easy, when I say easy it was easy for me to

prepare for Doggett’s because I was in full time racing and I was training six days a week at

that time. So I was going to do the same sort of training all the way through and when it came

to Doggett’s generally speaking before that you were racing 2000 metres, 1500 metres, you

did a few odd long races as scull as head of the river throughout the year, but Doggett’s being

the distance that it is you training a slightly bit different when it comes to that year. But as I

say, always trained for the period from leaving school up to Doggett’s, so I was pretty fit that

year anyway, as most years at the time.

Q: And would you say that your mental preparation for Doggett’s was similar to another major

race you’d be competing in?

BP: I think Doggett’s was worse and harder really because it’s something that you really want to

pick up, you know, you want to get it done and win the race, and I mean the night before I’d

rode it three times and totally convinced myself it was all over, and then the alarm went and

you’ve got to get up and do it [laughs]. And that’s the truth, that’s absolutely fact, I remember

all that, yeah. And as I say you’re training up and doing the distance and at the time I was

sculling up at Putney and up over the boat race course, and then the fortnight before the race I

moved down onto the course and went over the course more or less every day, and I always

used to find that the conditions are normally worse the first half of the course so you would

gear up your--, I mean I was coached at the time but you would gear up what you were doing

and you’d do sort of three minutes off the start and then pick your way to Westminster and

then do your work really the second half of the course, that was what I did, because of the

conditions.

Q: And how easy at part of the river is it to predict what the conditions would be like on the day?

BP: Well all the times that I expected to have bad weather for the first half of the course, when it

came to the day well it was a millpond, I could not have had better conditions than anyone I’ve

seen. Don’t write that down, I don’t want anyone to know that.

Q: [laughs] Before we get into more of your actual race though, I’ll just ask you Paul about your

preparation.


PP: Well I was lucky because being a member of Poplar & Blackwall which has probably got more

Doggett’s winners than any other club, and also adding my brother who was a winner as well,

and obviously all my friends. But I’d done more or less what my brother had done, I trained at

Poplar but I did go to London Rowing Club where my brother trained as well and Martin

Spencer who’s another Doggett’s coat and badge winner who actually won the double sculls

with Bobby at Henley the year I won Doggett’s. So we had a good year that year, ’76. And I

had a guy at London Rowing Club who was absolutely brilliant, his name was Dougie Melvin,

and he won the British Championships twice didn’t he Bob?

BP: Yeah, the Amateur Championship winner, yeah.

PP: Yeah, and he coached me, and although I liked training at Poplar, up at London the water was

that much better and you got a lot of distance in there and it was just better all round. And

also on top of that I had to row heats because there was more than six of us actually in the

race and the heats was from Putney Bridge to Hammersmith and the fastest six go through

the race day. So where I was training up at London it was much easier for me because I knew

the course like the back of my hand because I spent sort of 18 months up at London Rowing

Club. And in between that I was still rowing at Poplar and still racing for Poplar as well.

Q: So you were quite confident for the heats?

PP: I wasn’t because my brother never told me the time what I done it is, I knew I’d done well but

no one would tell me exactly how well I’d done.

BP: [laughs].

Q: Did he encourage you, give you advice?

PP: Oh he used to make my life a misery. [BP laughs]. When we were at work, because that’s

how good the company was, they actually put us together, we were on the same tug and that,

and when you went to let a barge go if the barge was what they call in the collar, which meant

that that was next to the dummy barge, nine times out of ten there’d be what they call a collar

chain, and he used to push me out, “No, no, I’ll let that go,” because if anything was to happen

and I hurt myself then I’d have to drop out of Doggett’s. So he was pain but it was all good

stuff. And I can remember him popping round, because obviously I was still living with my

parents but Bob was married and was living at his own place, and he popped in one night and


he was just horrified that why was I indoors and not up at Putney, because he thought I was--,

and I’d already gone and done a run because I thought I’d--, and what it was, I cut my hand, I

cut my hand on a tin of corned beef believe it or not so I couldn’t grab the scull. But he gave

me a bit of a rollicking.

Q: How close to the heat was that?

PP: That was probably a month or two away, it wasn’t a problem, but I think if I’d gone sculling that

night I’d have probably opened it up more so I did a run instead.

Q: So Bobby you weren’t living at home but what role did your family play in supporting you in

preparing for the Doggett’s race?

BP: Well no I was living at home when I sculled Doggett’s, and they were very supportive, very

supportive. I’ll never forget, I was earning a decent living and we shared a bedroom Paul and

I, as most families did in those days, and we had these single beds, and I said to my father,

“That mattress, I’m sculling Doggett’s this year, I’ll have to have a new mattress,” and it was

quite funny really because I had quite a new car and I had a decent job, I was earning a

decent living, and my dad said, “Really, well you want to go and get yourself one” [laughs]

PP: Or words to that effect.

BP: Yeah, and I thought about that afterwards, I thought yeah I suppose he’s right really.

PP: Funny you saying that, my wife, who at the time was obviously my girlfriend, she went out and

bought a new mattress for her bed when I used to stay round her place [laughs]. That’s how it

gets you.

BP: Yeah it does, it really does, you take it really on board and it’s not like any other race, I know

we say it is, but like what Paul mentioned about lifting collar chains and that, and I can

remember before I sculled Doggett’s I was working on a tug and we used to have a generator

where you had to turn a handle to start it, and I said to the skipper six weeks before the race,

“I can’t start that, if that breaks my arm that’ll be it, that’s the end of it,” and he was as good as

gold, he said, “No I understand,” so I never touched that for six weeks. Whereas if you were

racing somewhere else you just carried on your job. It’s a thing that does get you, yeah.


Q: It sounds a very interesting, rich build up to the race day.

BP: Oh it is, it certainly is, yeah.

Q: Were you aware of any tricks or sabotage techniques from other competitors?

PP: Well in my race there was, at the start, they don’t do it now but at the start they used to have a

guy who would stand on the shore and he would raise his flag, and that was to let the umpire,

in them days it was Charlie Taylor, to let the umpire know that we were level, then Charlie

Taylor would go. And I didn’t know this, it was Bertie wasn’t it, Bertie Green, I didn’t know, but

evidently one of my opponents, Mickey Britton, Charlie Taylor told him watch Bert because

when Bert goes just go. So I actually got dropped off the start, and they always say in

Doggett’s there’s always something you remember, and I can always remember when he

jumped the start I can remember him because he was in the London launch with Dougie and I

can remember him screaming and hollering and I thought oh nothing to worry about.

BP: Yeah, get on with it mate, yeah that’s right, yeah.

Q: Bobby, would you agree with Paul’s comment that there’s always something, one thing you

remember about the start of the Doggett’s race, the beginning?

BP: Oh yeah, even all these years later, absolutely. And all the races that you’ve rode in, this is

one that is there all the time. And as I say, obviously you speak to a lot of people about it and

in particular a very good friend Kenny, Kenny Dwan, he’s done so well over the years,

Olympian twice, he’d give it all up for Doggett’s. That’s Kenny. But you say remember

something at the start? Yeah, when we had the draw, at Fishmongers, you always want the

best station and in a way I was luckier than Paul because there was four in my race whereas

there was six on Paul’s day. So you want one of the centre stations or to the south shore.

Q: Can you just explain a bit about why you want that?

BP: Yeah, because the worst station--, the stations are numbered from the north shore right by

Fishmongers Hall, so there’s 1-2-3-4-5-6. I would always class the best stations as 4 and 5

because you’re over there, and the reason being as you go off the first bends that you come to


are on the south side, so you’re coming round by Festival, so if you’re right over on the north

shore you’ve got to get over onto the south shore. So when it came to the draw I sat there

and when my name came out and the colour was red and the number 1 station I thought oh

no, I’ve got the one station I don’t want, which I still class as the worst station that you can get,

which it is. But there’s been a lot of winners off that station, and the thing is once the umpire

says go, or hopefully just before he says go [laughs], you’ve got to get over onto that south

shore, and that’s one thing that I remember doing, probably too violently but I did get away

with it, and one of my best friends Bobby Lupton was on number 3 station and I remember

cutting across his head to get to the south shore. That’s a clipper coming alongside. And I

remember cutting across and I can see Bobby’s face now just looking at me, shouting at me

get over, just get over [laughs]. A great friend, still is today, yeah.

Q: Tell us about the boat you raced in.

BP: The boat that I raced in? Well they were all identical boats.

PP: Match boats.

BP: Match boats, at the time all owned by the Fishmongers Company. And it was strange, well I

can remember all the names but--,

PP: Spicer.

BP: Yeah I know but I was thinking of some of the other names.

PP: Oh yeah, [inaudible 0:31:36].

BP: Well when I went to Fishmongers to sign on and they allocate you a boat, in those days they

allocated you a boat, all you had to do was pay the insurance which I think at the time was

about £2.50 which was very fair, and they said, “We’re going to allocate you a boat,” and I

said, “Oh, there was one that I actually wanted,” so they went, “Well what one did you want,

because we’ve allocated you Spicer,” so I said, “Oh, that’ll do, that’s the one I wanted,” and it

was purely because my wife’s maiden name is Spicer. You don’t really talk about that down

the East End [laughs], but I got that and it was funny, it was just the way it worked out. So I

actually got that, and I think you ended up with it as well didn’t you?


PP: I had it as well, it was exactly the same, I just pulled it out of the hat and it was the same boat

as what my brother had, and that boat, if you ever want to go and see it, go to the Poplar &

Blackwall Rowing Club and it’s hanging up on the roof in the main hall.

Q: And were you happy with the draw that you got, your position?

PP: Yeah, I wasn’t too bothered to be truthful, but I think I was 4.

BP: Yeah, you were weren’t you, it was in the middle somewhere.

PP: Yeah I had a good station.

BP: He had the station I wanted.

PP: Yes and I was white.

Q: Where were you on the day that Bobby was doing his race?

PP: I was on the boat following it, I was on the boat with the family following it, and all the Poplar

crowd. Because that’s another thing which is health and safety now, as everyone knows, it’s

good in a lot of way but it’s a shame in other ways, because when me and Bob sculled and

obviously many other people as well, all the pleasure boats used to follow it, and now the only

allow is it four? Or is it two?

BP: Well no, it was four, I think last year it was three wasn’t it?

PP: Yeah, but I mean was it you I’ve spoken to, because I said to--, and we couldn’t find it but my

wife’s going to try and dig it out, I’ve got--, which I didn’t even know was happening, my wife

made scrap book up of the beginning right to the day I won it, and she’s got every little bit of

paper. What Bob was saying about when you pick out the draw, there’s letters there from

Dickie--,


BP: Dick Phelps.

PP: Dick Phelps, there’s letters from London Rowing Club2, who used to be captain--,

BP: Oh, Bobby--, [talking together 0:33:59].

PP: Yeah, and all these different--, and in it there’s some photos where you can see the amount of

pleasure boats following it.

BP: At that time everyone followed, everyone followed the race, it was like an armada behind it.

Even tugs, small tugs would come up and follow the race.

PP: But the sad thing about it obviously, if you’re getting beat and you’re well back they go through

you, and I think that’s where the health and safety came into it.

BP: You get a rough ride.

Q: Were you conscious of faces and seeing people as you were sculling, Bobby?

BP: Yes I will always remember Coin Street, yeah, people shouting out, yeah, in particular my

mother.

Q: And Paul, was that the same for you when you were rowing in your race, were you conscious

of this large amount of people?

PP: Yeah well obviously with my brother who as I say at the beginning when Mickey jumped the

start a little bit, that always sticks in my mind, and also when I was getting to Charing Cross

and that, because by then my father had left the lighterage industry, although me and Bobby

were still working as lightermen my father was working on the pleasure boats, and all of his

friends were at work that day and they were all giving me a bit of a shout, so yeah I remember

all that.

2 This was actually Thames Rowing Club


Q: Can you tell us some memories of your Doggett’s race?

PP: The race? Well, as Bob will tell you and anyone who’s done it whether they’ve won it or lost it,

they’ll always tell you the training is so much harder than the actual race day. Because the

plan was, because Dougie was coaching me, also Bobby and Martin Spencer was helping me,

and the plan was I come off rating 32 strokes within a minute, hold that for a minute, then bring

it down to 30 and then come over at 28. And by the time I got to Westminster I thought I might

as well bring this down to 26, and I mean when I went over the finish, the one who came

second he was just shooting Chelsea I think. I mean I won it quite comfortable.

Q: And was 26 strokes a minute something you practiced on that part of the river?

PP: Oh yeah, I mean because what I’d done, I don’t think you could probably do it these day but I

think Bob did similar and probably the older Doggett’s winners did the same as well, I mean

the two weeks before Doggett’s I lived on the course, because I used to go over the first week,

the way the tides was, went over in the morning every morning and then what Dougie would

give me, I’d have a work plan where I would do a certain amount of work over that distance, so

I’d start off at London Bridge and I might do maybe four or three minutes or something like that

within--, in the going over, and then within that I would do one flat out as well to see times and

all that. And then the second week, because obviously the tides are going to be different to

what they were the first week, and I can remember going over with a gentleman Freddie

Burwood, he’s someone later on, but old Fred he took--, and it was rough, but it wasn’t the

clippers, it was the tugs and all that were still going, you know. But as I say, I don’t think they

could do it now because of the clippers with their commuter service and that so it wouldn’t

matter what time you go. I think the only way you could do it now if you put some lights on

and did it like early hours of the morning.

Q: And when you were rowing and you’ve got that strict race plan and you’ve got your tempo, are

you talking to yourself in your head, are you singing, tapping, is it the water? What’s keeping

you going?

PP: Oh yeah, yeah. Well I’ll tell you what, and I still do it today because believe it or not I still row

veterans, but we have what they call a rate meter these days, but Bob will tell you in our days

these rate meters it was a stop watch, and you started that stop watch off so that’s how you

knew what you was rating. And that’s what you just used to--, I just used to switch myself onto


that, and obviously you’ve got to watch your steering as well because you’re going through

quite a number of bridges. So yeah I used to concentrate on the old stop watch.

Q: And when in the race did you know you were going to win?

PP: I think at Westminster, I think at Westminster I thought, you know, but then as you carry on

and then I started bringing the rate down and that, and then you start thinking well hang on a

minute, if you hit a lump of wood or something you’re--, so it still keeps you--, your mind’s still

going all the time, you know, you don’t--, but then also you don’t want to rub it in as well

because they’re still your working friends who you’re racing. I mean well obviously the people

I race, we all went to lighterage school together.

Q: So you didn’t want to ease up because you--,

PP: Well I didn’t want to--,

BP: You didn’t want any of them to catch you [laughs].

PP: No, obviously, but I didn’t want to rub their noses in it completely, I mean I could probably

have done a lot more if I wanted to, I could have carried on at 28 and it would have been an

even bigger distance, but you know at the end of the day I won it and they’re still your mates.

Q: Tell us about the moment when you crossed the finish line.

PP: Well obviously I was over the moon, and well Bob was the first one to congratulate me, he

helped me get the boat out, and there’s a photo in there--, look, I’ll show you that, when the

wife can dig it out. But it was a bit of an anticlimax as well because believe it or not we all

ended up down Poplar Road club and I went out and had a scull. I went out and had a scull

because I was racing, I think I sculled on the--, I can’t remember if the race was on a

Wednesday or a Thursday, it might even have been a Tuesday, but that Saturday I was racing

at Huntington so I went out and had a scull. And then when I came back I had a few jars.

Q: Thank you. We’d like to hear about your race day, Bobby, are there any particular memories

other than the ones you’ve shared already that stand out?


BP: Yeah, yeah. I think when Paul said about going off, he didn’t go off at 32, he went off at 37 and

then down to 28

PP: Oh, see now he never told me that.

BP: No, well because that’s what you do on a race pace. The things I remember very much about

my day, as I say, in particular one of the guys that was in it, Bobby Lupton, who won the

following year, he’s a great friend of mine. It was a very hot day and we were told to go over

inside the Belfast at the time, and we started to get under the lea of the Belfast to try and get

out of the sun. And the race was delayed and we were both getting rather fed up with it

because we’d both raced all our lives, we were apprenticed together, so we’d raced

everywhere and we just didn’t want to--, we wanted to get going, we just wanted to go. And

the other two lads who were in the race didn’t seem too concerned, but we were gradually

winding ourselves up with it. And the delay went on and on, and why the delay happened, we

didn’t know at that time until the umpire came and spoke to us, and then we could see it for

ourselves, Fishmonger stairs, they’ve got some stairs in front of Fishmongers Hall, which they

have used in recent years now, but at this particular time in ’73 they decided that they were

going to--, the new bridge had been opened that year, London Bridge was opened, and they

decided that the boats were going to pick up at the new steps, the steps had been all

renovated. But no one had worked out that by the time the race starts there’s no water at the

stairs, so the flood tide’s coming in, and fortunately in those days the boats that we used were

much shallower than what are used today, but they were still very much delayed picking up all

the guests, and there were four boats at the time, so we were sitting there waiting and waiting

and it was getting to you the heat and everything, we really just wanted to go. And I

remember Bobby Lupton saying to me, as I say we’ve always got on so well, he said, “Oh I’m

going home in a minute,” and I thought well I hope you do [laughs] because I’m not, I’m going

to sit and wait. And eventually we got off, and as I said earlier about coming from the north

station and cutting across poor Bobby. But then working round, I mean the conditions were

absolutely superb, and of course being delayed the tide was coming on much faster. The first

hour of the flood tide is where the tide trickles in, the second and third hour it goes faster and

faster and then it’s belting in. So we gained, we gained in the conditions.

PP: And that’s why he’s got such a fast time [laughs].

Q: I was just about to say, talking of speed, you’re being modest and not saying it yourself but did

you know when you were racing that this was fast?


BP: No, no you don’t, you just want to win, and you don’t take all this into consideration. But I

remember, you saying about thinking of things and remembering bits, as we came around I

cut up through Coin Street and so did Bobby inside the moorings, and then when we got to

Festival Pier I came out and I was leading and I came out, and Bobby, our cute Gravesender,

stayed on the south side and he stayed up there right up through St Thomas’s, and I thought

he’s coming back at me, he’s coming back, which he was because he still cut in the bend, but

then I should--, I didn’t realise it but I should have realised he’d still got to come over to my

side because the next bend is my side so he’s got to come over. And fortunately when he

started coming over then I gained back what he’d taken from me. And I do recall then, and I

was still at 28 all the way over, Paul says about the watch, I counted in those days every

stroke to make sure that every minute was 28 and if it wasn’t then I had to get it back up to it

the next minute. Anyway, I remember very, very well at Vauxhall it was literally a millpond and

I thought, you know, everything’s going well, yeah I’ve got to keep this, I can win it now, I can

win it but I’ve got to keep it at this. And then things go through your mind, exactly what Paul

said, if you hit something and there’s driftwood, and those boats were very, very good

because they were designed with a retracting fin so if you actually hit something under the

boat the fin would go up and then drop back down, providing the fin wasn’t bent because it

would go up and stay. Anyway, I remember at Vauxhall thinking oh don’t hit anything, don’t hit

anything, and then, sadly in those days there was more debris in the river and there was such

a bang, and I looked round and it was a yellow Shell five gallon oil drum. How did I hit that?

How the hell did I hit it, and then you’re visualising have I damaged the boat? All the boat

actually did was pushed it to one side, but it was a--, and I thought it just shows you what can

happen, you know. I thought I hope it drifts down and hits poor Bobby [laughs]. Fortunately it

didn’t.

Q: It sounds like a race with an awful lot of tactics in it, and would you say being an experienced

rower that there’s more tactics involved, strategy, in Doggett’s?

BP: Well you have to be aware of steering all the time, and I didn’t steer particularly well but there

is so much to think of with every bridge you go under, there’s eddies round abutments, the tide

sets are different. So for example at Vauxhall if you were to go wide the tide’s setting you

there so you’ve got to watch that you don’t go too wide otherwise you’ll end up right in the bite

at Nine Elms and then you’ve got to come out of that bite. So it is quite a tactical race

compared with getting on the start at Henley or getting on the start at Nottingham and doing a

straight course, yeah.

Q: Was there a moment you knew you’d won Doggett’s, and how far out was that?


BP: When that fella dropped the flag at the end [both laugh].

Q: Tell us about your memory of that moment, crossing the line.

BP: Oh it was great, and I’ll never forget that Bobby--, as Bobby came up, because he wasn’t far

behind me, it was a hard race, and we got alongside one another and shook hands.

Q: Has he forgiven you for winning?

BP: Oh he’s great, he’s great, we’ve had some good times, and we still do. And what was lovely,

what was really lovely about that, was that he won the following year. But you know, when

you’ve rowed with someone, I suppose it’s like playing football or rugby or something, when

you’ve rowed with someone since you left school, you know, yeah, it was a shame that we

raced together but that’s the way life is.

Q: Have we got some time to ask some more questions?

Q: Absolutely, yeah.

Q: Great. Just thinking about what did you do after the race?

BP: I knew you were going to ask that and I’m trying to remember.

PP: I’ll tell you what you done, you went and had a pint like I did with Nan and Farvee in the

Cuckoo

BP: Yes I think I did.

PP: But I think you ended up down the rowing club as well though, I think you still ended up down

the rowing club.


BP: Yeah, I remember Poplar & Blackwall having a launch, they had a big launch with Conaught

and members of the club came and got me at Cadogan and I said I can’t go on there because

my parents and grandparents are on the [Shay Bligh 0:47:59].

PP: That’s right, yes

BP: Because the lighterage company we worked for hired that boat, so I went back to Tower Pier

on the Chay Blyth, I think as Paul says I had a drink with my grandfather and then went back

down to the rowing club and got smashed up I suppose.

Q: Is there someone other than yourself that you won Doggett’s for?

BP: Someone other than--?

Q: In your family, was there a family member that it was particularly important to you that they

were there and saw you?

BP: Oh, granddad.

PP: Yeah, granddad.

BP: Granddad, yeah.

Q: And do you remember what he said to you after you’d won?

BP: I think he was just pleased really, to be honest with you, he was just pleased because he’d

come up from really the early days, you know, of rowing barges. And he had a much harder

life than I’ve ever had.

Q: Was being the fastest time across the course important to you, and has it stayed of

importance to you?


BP: It wasn’t important, no it wasn’t important because you don’t think that when you’re in a race.

If that comes in any race, and I’m sure athletes and other people that are fortunate to get

records, in all sports, I think generally speaking you go out to win, and if a record comes, and

don’t forget it takes at least two to break a record, you don’t break it without someone with you

forcing you to break it. So it didn’t mean--, I mean as years have gone on it’s nice, it’s nice to

think of it, I mean one day, for the next one who gets it good luck to him.

PP: What I was going to say, three years after Bob winning it, that’s when I raced in ’76, and I

didn’t even look at the times or anything. Because that was in the July, and then in the

November you go to Fishmongers to get your Loving Cup and your uniform and you go in front

and they read the scroll out. And as they’re reading it out and they said, “And we’re delighted

to say that Paul’s got the second fastest time,” and I looked at you and I said well I didn’t even

know that, at the time I didn’t even know that.

BP: No, no you don’t think, you don’t really think of it.

PP: But I’ve always said, with times and all that, there’s a lot of people who’s won it who I wouldn’t

have been able to beat, and there’s a lot of people who’s lost it who I don’t think I could have

beat. So the time to me doesn’t, you know, I won it my year and I was pleased to do it.

Q: Did it change your life?

PP: I think it did. I think anyone who win’s Doggett’s and they work out on the river, it does change

their life. I mean I’m lucky now, and I’m sure it had lots to do with Doggett’s, I’m a Royal

Waterman for the Queen and I’m also the Barge Master and Swan Marker for the Vintners’

Company. And I’m sure those doors opened up with a little bit of help of me winning

Doggett’s, I’m sure of that.

Q: And you mentioned about going to Fishmongers to get kitted out--,

PP: Yes, which everyone does, I mean everyone who’s won Doggett’s, they have an evening, I

actually said November but I think I remember now it was in the January, but it always is in

November the dinner but that particular year they were doing the hall up. Because I ended up

doing the Lord Mayor’s Show because as you probably already know the escort of the Lord

Mayor is the Doggett’s boys, they always walk in front of the Lord Mayor’s carriage, and I think

that goes back to the days when the Lord Mayor’s Show was on the river. So they had the


Doggett’s, and I was actually allowed to wear the uniform to do the Lord Mayor’s Show before

I was presented with it.

BP: They’re very good like that actually, the Fishmongers are very good like that and sometimes

it’s a few days before and they still do it anyway.

PP: And also, when you were asking about what it meant and what it’s done for you and that, the

different places you go, where you’re invited to wear your uniform and that and to meet some

marvellous people, I mean going back quite a number of years ago now I was asked to do a

job on one of the big pleasure boats and it was to meet all the people who’d won the George

Cross and the Victoria Cross. And there were some wonderful stories, you know,

unbelievable.

Q: Bobby, was it such an auspicious grand occasion for you when you first wore your coat and

badge?

BP: Oh yeah, yeah absolutely, yeah you feel very proud of it, yeah. And even today, mind you it’s

a bit harder to get into it today [laughs].

Q: Tell is about when you went to get fitted for yours, what actually happens when you go there?

BP: At the time, the tailors have changed now, like a lot of things in London, but I think yours was

the same?

PP: Yes, Samuel Brothers.

BP: We went to Samuel Brothers at Clerkenwell Green, we were sent there by the Fishmongers

and you’re measured up for the livery, and it does seem a bit strange when you put this sort of

frock coat on, you know. But it’s a lovely feeling, yeah it is a fantastic feeling. And it’s nice

when you get a group of you together, that’s nice.

PP: Especially with the sad part about it now, we’re now in a situation where we’re taking over,

because when we got made up there were the old characters, Siddy Thomas, Algie Thomas,

Charlie Taylor...


BP: Yeah, yeah. You don’t think you’re ever going to get old [laughs].

PP: Because the watermen have a diary and in that diary they’ve got all the winners of the

Doggett’s, so when you first win it you’re there. Now when you look at it you’re sort of right

back there [laughs].

Q: And did it change your life Bobby as well, winning Doggett’s?

BP: Yes it does at work, definitely, people like to talk to you about it, people that you’ve worked

with--, freemen, that you’ve worked with as an apprentice, and they’re thrilled to see you go

through and win it, because people have signed your papers, we used to have to get freemen

to sign our papers before we went up and was examined. So we used to have six freemen

didn’t we, and so them people, it’s nice for them that you come back and you’ve actually won

the race that they’ve let you get away from work to train for, yeah.

Q: They’re people in the know, not like me asking these questions, what sort of things do they

want to know from you about Doggett’s?

BP: How did it go off the start, was this comfortable, was that comfortable, it’s never comfortable,

however easy it may look it’s not, it’s not easy. Yeah, and they’ll sometimes ask you in the

lead up to it, you know, how did it go last night, especially people that have rowed, we worked

with a lot of people that had rowed in the race themselves, some had won, some had lost.

And they were covering us at work to go training and let us go and do the training. So they

were interested in what your programme was, what training you’d done.

PP: I mean in them days, I don’t know about now, you’d have to speak to some of the younger

ones, but we were lucky, in our industry there was always people there prepared to cover you

so you could go and do your training. I don’t know if that’s still the same, but yeah we were

lucky.

Q: And just thinking about your marvellous coat and your badge, so where do you keep it?

PP: In the wardrobe [all laugh].

Q: Have you worn it recently? When was the last time you put it on?


PP: I think it was--, was it last month? I think I did one at Fishmongers didn’t I, last month was it?

BP: You probably did, I can’t remember the dates.

PP: I can tell you when the next one is, if I’m right. Is there one on the 27th of July?

BP: 26th.

PP: Oh, 26th, I was a day out, 26th.

BP: The installation of the new Prime Warden. Paul was saying earlier about the list and how it

goes down, and that’s the list there, that’s the newest winner, young Jack, and I’m just falling

off that page there now [laughs].

PP: And our great uncle’s in there as well. Our great uncle, he was a professional rower, old Jack

West, and he won it after the First World War didn’t he?

BP: What they did do in the war years, because they couldn’t hold the races every year, they

rowed them all off after the war, so there would have been five or six races, and what Paul

was saying about Jack, his year was 1915 but I think he would have rowed in 1918 or 1919

after the war, the first, the Great War. Terrible isn’t it? [laughs]

Q: It’s wonderful, fascinating. So, I guess to wrap up, thinking about the future and what your

hopes would be for Doggett’s for the future, maybe Bobby if we start with you?

BP: Yeah, my hopes for the--, I mean I always think of the words that Thomas Doggett used, that

the race should go on forever. And I think of the boys today, and indeed girls because we’ve

had two girls scull Doggett’s and I’d like to see a lot more because I think the industry is

changing and more women will come in, there is already women here now and more will come

in, and personally I welcome that and I’d like to see them apprenticed and scull for the race.

And I still keep trying to drive it into some of our apprentices, I’d like to see much more of them

take an interest in Doggett’s and take an interest in the tradition of Doggett’s and take part in

Doggett’s, because it is a great experience and I always believe in treating everyone the

same, and that is if you win, lose or draw you’re all the same, you’ve all taken part in that race.


PP: You’ve had a go.

BP: Yeah. So that’s really my thoughts for the future.

Q: How about you, Paul?

PP: Well, very similar. Obviously I want to see the race carry on, and all the youngsters I speak to

I always tell them, have a go because it’s well worth having. I mean it’s opened doors for me

and I’m sure it opens doors, definitely, but if you’re going to make your living on the river and

you can win Doggett’s--,

Q: And is Doggett’s safe for the next 300 years?

PP: I hope so, I hope so, yeah.

BP: Yeah, I think in one way or the other, unless something absolutely catastrophic happens

[laughs], but I think in one way or the other it will continue. I’d like to see it continue with the

Watermen’s Company and Fishmongers’ Company in the way they work together. There is no

reason why, if people do as I ask and take part in it, because we’re still apprenticing over 20 a

year, so you know we should be able to get people to the start. And I think also some of the

older members like us that have finished their serious rowing should and will assist, will assist

the youngsters.

PP: We’ve got a young lad now working for us and he came down the rowing club on Sunday, took

him out on a double scull, but he seems really keen, and he’s the right age, he’s 17 so he’s got

a nice few years ahead of him and he can get plenty under his belt for when he has to race.

Q: So for this year’s race would you be doing heats or--?

PP: No, I don’t think--, I’m not sure how many’s doing it this year.

BP: I was speaking to Simon, a rowing officer, and I think he’s got five. But some of the rules are

changing a little bit. Whereas we had a Waterman & Lighterman’s licence, since 2007 it’s


been called a Boatmaster’s licence, and that was introduced by the MCA in conjunction with

the PLA. But really the rules for Doggett’s are you be a freeman of--, you collect your freedom

from the Watermen’s Company. But I think what’s getting a little bit mixed up nowadays is the

MCA Boatman’s licence and then the local knowledge, so these lads are examined for the

MCA and then they come up and they do their examination of Watermen’s Company for their

freedom, and really if you look at the actual rules to Doggett’s the MCA Boatman’s licence is

actually nothing to do with it, it’s the freedom of the company, and I’m a bit... a bit lost for

words on some of the questions and some of the exams that come from the MCA on

apprentices that are going to work this river, i.e. from Lower Hope to Teddington. I think

they’re more looking at seamanship and the river is not about seamanship, the river is about

watermen.

PP: It does seem that the people in charge of the river at the moment are all either to do with

seafarers, including the Royal Navy as well, which the river doesn’t work like the sea and I

mean most, I don’t know about nowadays but I’m sure it still applies, most ships when they go

into different ports they’ll have a pilot and they always used to do it here, and when I was

talking about a pilot I’m talking about like when anything of any size comes up the Thames,

goes up through the bridges, you had a watermen who was that pilot, what they used to call a

mud pilot. And I think that’s all gone by the way now hasn’t it?

BP: Yeah I think so, it’s more or less a PLA pilot now, yeah. Yeah, because I think you can take

up to 50 metres.

PP: Yes but we were hoodwinked. When we were--, I mean we didn’t have much option but we

were told when we had to turn over to this Boatmaster’s licence we were told by the MCA that

it’s happening because all of Europe’s all going to run under the same licence. But that hasn’t

happened, because if you work on the Rhine they’ve still got their own licences like we had on

the Thames. So we don’t know, when we come out of Europe are we going to get rid of the

Boatman’s licence? It’ll be interesting to see.

Q: Would you like to see more platforms and ways for watermen’s views and opinions to be fed

into exams and exam questions and policy?

PP: Yeah well the Watermen’s Company has always done that, you know--,

BP: I don’t agree with the syllabus for training youngsters today to work on the Thames, no I don’t.

It’s a different life to--, you know, they’re not cadets on ships, that is a different industry


altogether. They call it maritime because we all work on the water, but it’s a different life, it’s a

different industry.

Q: And just thinking about were two groups of people might be being treated differently just made

me think about a question I hadn’t asked about the gentleman amateurs and whether you

observed them being treated differently to working class professionals when you were rowing

on the Thames, if you have any memories or thoughts about that?

BP: Oh that goes back such a long time.

PP: They changed it in the fifties didn’t they?

BP: Yeah, yeah. And it was because in those days, if you think back literally hundreds of years,

you go back to Henry VIII, watermen would--, there wasn’t the roads, there wasn’t the

infrastructure around London, and not only royalty, wealthy people, the livery companies, they

would have a livery barge and they would employ a waterman to row that barge. So if you

wanted to go--, royalty would go from Greenwich up to Hampton Court or even on to Windsor,

there would be several crews of watermen that would row that barge with royalty up to

Windsor. So that was all--, it was professional because you got paid, that was your job. I

think with the Amateur Rowing Association it got a little bit out of touch because, you know,

rowing a royal barge is not like rowing a best boat at Henley, and for many years it was

classed as professional so you couldn’t race, watermen couldn’t race at Henley. And probably

people in those days at Henley, college crews and that, trained much harder than the

watermen did because they were doing it for a living and rowing different boats. So I think it

was a crazy situation and I think without a doubt in the fifties the right thing happened and we

were allowed to race in these regattas.

PP: You had regattas, like there was two Reading regattas, you had the Reading Regatta which

was for the colleges and schools and then you had the Reading Working Men’s Regatta. But

the watermen and lightermen still weren’t allowed to go into that one because that was for

people who was like boiler makers, electricians, you know--,

BP: Yes it was a strange affair, but it was like with everything, we got it right in the end [laughs].

PP: Well we don’t get paid now. What happens now, the Fishmongers, they’re still very, very

good, they give a prize of a donation to whatever rowing club you’re rowing for. So like when


me and Bob, although we trained up at London, Poplar and Blackwall actually got the money

from the Fishmongers.

BP: And that goes towards helping the next generation, the next scullers.

Q: Can you tell us about the Vintners’ Company Swan Upping Team?

PP: They’re all Doggett’s Coat & Badge winners. And what it was, the gentleman who I took over

from, which you’ve heard me speak about, Martin Spencer, who is a very good friend of Bob’s

and as I said he rowed with Bob and won the double sculls at Henley the year I won Doggett’s,

’76, and Martin is also a Doggett’s winner, he was the Barge Master and Swan Marker for the

Vintners’ Company, and he had an idea, he always said that it’s easier to teach someone to

catch a swan than it is to teach someone to row. So he decided to have Doggett’s winners as

the Swan Uppers at Vintners’, and we’ve carried that tradition on.

Q: And can you just say a bit more about what swan upping entails?

PP: Well basically what we do, there’s three companies involved which is the Vintners’ Company,

the Dyers’ Company and the Royals, which is obviously the Queen. And once a year, which is

normally in July, I’m trying to think of the date, I’ve got it in my diary so you’ve got it there. We

go for a week, we start at Walton-on-Thames and we finish up at Oxford or just before Oxford

at--,

BP: 16th of July.

PP: Yeah, Abingdon, we finish at Abingdon. And we stay at accommodation at Cookham, so each

day, like the first day we finish at Windsor so a coach picks us up and takes us back to our

accommodation and then the next morning we go back to Windsor and get in the boats. And

basically what we do, we’re after catching the cygnets, and within that week, when we catch

the cygnets we try to catch the parents as well, and if they’re big enough we’ll put the rings on

and that is my job to put the rings on the Vintners’ birds. But it’s an educational thing as well

because we have a lot of schools come down and we explain what we’re doing and we try to

tell them about a lot of the debris we get in the river with fishing tackle, bags and all that, so

we say to them like if you see anything make sure it doesn’t go in the river and that. But we

also make sure that they’re all alright, if there’s any damaged birds or anything we have

Professor Perrins, Chris Perrins, he’s from Oxford University and he’s the top man in the


country for all species of birds, that’s with like feathers [laughs], but here’s there as well and

they have a diary, and I’ve got a book, like we’ve had a situation where a swan got killed last

year and I went into my book and it had a Vintners’ ring on it, I could tell them exactly where it

was caught and that way they can more or less work out how old the bird was and that. So it’s

educational, as I say, for the children and also it’s looking after, trying to keep the birds

because obviously we lose--, last year we had quite a good catch didn’t we last year, we had

quite good numbers, but each year is different because there’s so many things now which are

killing the cygnets such as foxes and there are certain areas where we go where they’ve had a

lot of mink, where they’ve escaped or they’ve been let loose from these farms and that, and

they attack the eggs and there’s all these different things. So you know, each year is a

different year.

Q: Very educational, I remember as a girl at school a guy came in with a swan, that wouldn’t

happen now would it, health and safety. Bobby, can I ask you about your Atlantic races?

BP: Yes [laughs].

Q: Yeah, is there a particular Atlantic race you’d like to describe, mention?

BP: Yes the one I nearly never came back from [laughs].

PP: The first one.

BP: The Atlantic rowing was never for me, I never even considered doing it, I’d had a decent

rowing career, I’d enjoyed it, I was having fun and I’d been at a Doggett’s function with Paul

and a number of other lads, and one of the boys, we’d had a few pints of Guinness and one of

the boys went, “Fancy doing the Atlantic? There’s this Atlantic challenge every couple of

years,” and I went, “You’re crazy aren’t you? No, no, no.” And before the end of the night I’d

had a drop more Guinness, and “Yeah it’s for charity, we’re going to help the head injury...”

and I’ve always been a sucker for charity because I think a hell of a lot of charities are brilliant

and I’m always out to help them. But I don’t know why I agreed but I did, and the next morning

I woke up and I thought oh I don’t believe this. But yeah, so after I think it was 18 months I

found myself--, there’s been a lot of preparation in getting boats and so on, and after 18

months I found myself on the start line in La Gomera in The Canaries to row the Atlantic, yeah.

It was only 3000 miles.


Q: How many days at sea?

BP: Well that particular one [laughs] it was seven weeks I was at sea, and we were half way and

we--, things had gone wrong, we’d lost a rudder and we were blowing backwards and we lost

a Para Anchor and so on, and it went from bad to worse and we ended up turning over,

capsizing. Spent quite a long period in a life raft, I’ve had some experiences, and we

eventually got picked up by a tanker. Talk about being picked up, you know, we see these

liners and think if it all goes wrong, and it was a bad year, there was a number of people that

capsized, we thought if it goes wrong and we end up on a cruise liner we can end up in the

West Indies talking to Americans, tell them about our story and they’ll buy us drinks all the way

through. That didn’t happen, we ended up on this oil tanker, but it was an American ship,

160,000 tonnes, it was empty, and it was 26 Asian crew or Indian crew, and you couldn’t have

wished to meet nicer people and they looked after us, ten days we were on the ship. Didn’t

end up in the West Indies, ended up in Gabon in West Africa. What a lovely weekend that

was. That was that, that was the first time. Second time, sadly it went wrong again, ended up

in the Verde Islands, we won’t go into that one. Thirdly, I got across and we rowed from La

Gomera, we did try for the record which was 33 days at the time, and we rowed across to--,

we were going to Antigua but we were diverted to Barbados because the weather was not in

our favour, and in actual fact Barbados is further down but it sticks out more so it’s actually 40

miles less than going to Antigua, so we were still in touch with the record at that time. We

didn’t get the record, we got across safely in 38 days.

Q: Thank you. I guess as we bring this to a close, and thank you so much for being so generous

with your time and your memories, is there a particular river story, bringing it back to the river,

it seems an appropriate place to end. Is there a particular river story you’d like to finish with?

BP: [laughs] Oh dear, dear. There’s so many stories, because every day to be honest was a story

wasn’t it, every day was a story and you worked with so many different characters. All the

commodities, the commodities that we carried. One of my first experiences being a boy on the

tug, tugs all had great big teapots and in those days you didn’t get teabags, it was leaf tea.

And we were getting short of tea, and we were towing six tea barges up from Tilbury, so I got

sent over as a boy to get a chest of tea. It happened in those days, you know. So I came

over with this chest of tea, bearing in mind no one had a tea strainer did they, that would go

straight into the--, and as I got this chest of tea, I’d struggled to get this chest of tea over and

they watched me and I said what’s the matter, they went, “Take that back, we want orange

pekoe.” [all laugh] And that’s the truth, that’s the truth.

Q: Very particular.


BP: Oh absolutely, yes. And them big mugs, in those days it was pint mugs with the flags on it.

PP: And because milk obviously would go off, we didn’t have fridges, it was tinned milk, you know

the Nestled tinned sweet milk? They used to put that in. And I can remember when we were

first, well it must have been about the first month of being afloat, I was down at Ford’s with

another apprentice, Aaron McPherson, and when they’d gone on the tug to make the tea there

was no milk, he’d ate the lot [all laugh].

BP: And he sculled Doggett’s as well. He won Doggett’s didn’t he?

PP: Yeah, he won that, yeah. But getting back to when my father, when he was at Ford’s, and it

was round about the same time, and talking about collar chain, I’ll explain the collar chain.

And I was as green as grass, I’d let the collar chain go, but forgetting my dad was on the other

end of it, and I won’t say what he screamed out but he sort of had to run along with it like--,

BP: Yes you certainly heard some colourful language didn’t you, yeah. Especially if some of them

had been on the booze all night [all laugh].

Q: Sarah, Eva, did I miss anything?

Q?: Very comprehensive, that’s great, thank you.

BP: Okay ladies, you’re welcome.

Q?: Do we need to do a formal ending?

Q: No, no formal ending [laughs].

[END OF RECORDING – 1:18:23]

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Oral History interview with Bobby Prentice & Paul Prentice...Oral History interview with Bobby...

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