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NB:Episode3–THELOOK

Programmedescription:Howcanyoudresstoreflectyourgenderidentity?Doesahaircutandapairoftrousersmakeallthedifference?Iseyeshadowofflimitsallofasudden?

CaitlinandAmrouarejoinedbyfashioniconandFruitcakeMagazinefoundingeditorJamieWindustfora trawl through the charity shopsof a London suburb, and to explore the tyrannies and freedomsofpresentingyourselfexactlyasyoulike-fromdressestoneckties,fromtuckingtobinding.

PresentedbyCaitlinBenedictandAmrouAl-KadhiProducedbyCaitlinBenedict,ArlieAdlingtonandGeorgiaCatt

Transcript

Caitlin: Thispodcastliterallycannothelpitself-containsstronglanguageandadultcontent.

Amrou: Therearesortofsocketsinyourbodythatholdyourballs—yourballsnaturallygointothem.Sothat'slikeanevolutionarymechanismtohelpconceal.Andthenyouthentakethepenisandyoupullitandputitbetweenyourbuttcheeks.Soyou'reessentiallypenetratingyourself…whichhasthemostsexI'mhavingatthemomentanyway.

Caitlin-voiceover: ThisisNB.

Amrou-voiceover: Non-binary

Caitlin-voiceover: Dismantlingthegenderbinary.

Amrou-voiceover: Onebigquestionatatime.

Caitlin-voiceover: I'mCaitlinandI'mjustfiguringoutmygenderidentity.

Amrou-voiceover: I'mAmrouandI'vebeenoutforawhile,

Caitlin-voiceover: Amrouisgoingtosharewhatthey'velearned.

Amrou-voiceover: Andhopefullylearnsomenewthingstoo.

Caitlin-voiceover: Okay,let'sgo.

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Amrou-voiceover: Thisispartthree.

Caitlin-voiceover: TheLook.

Whatdoesanon-binarypersonlooklike?AmIbannedfromthewomen'sracksforever?Wheredowestandonglittereyeshadow?I'mnotawomanandI'mnotaman.I'vegottits,I'vegotwidehips,I'm5'4"andI'vegotashortbackandsides.SowhatshouldIweartoday?Ithinkprobablythecorrectanswertothatquestionisanythingyoulikebecausesurelythewholepointofdismantlingthegenderbinaryisthatyougettodoexactlywhatyouwant.Butinallhonesty,gettingthelookrightoccupiesquitealotofmyheadspace.SotodayAmrouandIaretrekkingitacrossLondontoengageinoneofmyfavouritehobbies,thecharityshopcrawl.

Caitlin: We'reonanotherroadtrip.We'renotgoingquiteasfaraswewerelasttime.

Amrou: Iknow…wellWimbledonactuallyweirdlyfeelsfurtherawayfromBrightonformespiritually.

Caitlin: Spiritually,yeah.ButtheydohavereallygoodcharityshopsandIamasharkwhenitcomestocharityshopping.

Amrou: Areyou?

Caitlin: Yeah,well,Imean,like,ayearandahalfago,IdecidedIwasnotgoingtowear80%ofmywardrobeandIhadnomoney.SocharityshopsbecamemybestfriendandIwastryingonmen'strousersforthefirsttimeandthingslikethat.

Amrou: Weirdlymymotherwhoisaveryproudwoman,like,there'salotofMiddleEasternwomenwhothoughtitwaschildabusetosendmetocharityshops.She'sverydramaticwoman.

Caitlin: Wow.

Amrou: Eventhoughwehadnomoneyatonepointitwas,youcannotletthem.Iwaslike,areyoukiddingme?LikewhenIwasakid,Ihadthemostbeautifullong,well,kid…15/16,therewasalongredcape,literallylikehead-to-toeandIworeiteverysingleday.Andthenmymumthrewitawaybecauseshethoughtitwastooextravagant.

Caitlin: Um,thatsoundsbeautiful.Uh,yourmumseemsgreatmostofthetime,butthatwasa,thatwasamisjudgmentonyourmum'spart.

Amrou: No,weweren'ttoohappywithMamathen.Butmaybeit’llbethere!

Caitlin-voiceover: AmrouisadragartistwithagoodcollectionofsequineddressesandajockstrapthatI'venowseenplentyof(spoileralertforepisodefour)ButI'vebeendyingtoaskthemabouttheexact…mechanicsofsomethingdragqueensdotogetreadyforallofthatslinkyclothing.

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Caitlin: Sowhatexactlyistucking?

Amrou: Okay.Tucking101.Sonoteverydragqueendoesit,bytheway.Nowwhatitactuallyentailsis,andthisiswhyIthinkGodintendedfortheretobedragqueens,istherearesortofsocketsinyourbodythatholdsyourballs.

Caitlin: What?!

Amrou: Soyouliterallymoveyour,yourballsnaturallygointothem,sothat'slikeanevolutionarymechanismtohelpconceal.Andthenyouthentakethepenisandyoupullitandputitbetweenyourbuttcheeks.Soyou'reessentiallypenetratingyourself-whichisthemostsexI'mhavingatthemomentanyway.Andthenoncethat'sallinplace,youuseducttapetokeepitallinplace.

Caitlin: Takingthatoffislike...

Amrou: Absolutelyextraordinarypain.Forme,it'sareallypsychologicalprocessofgoing,I'mrejectingmyassignedgender,I'maugmentingmyself,andnowIgettolivethismoretruthfulidentity.Butyeah.

Caitlin: Somethinglikesuperritualinthereaswell,isn'tthere?

Amrou: It'svery,yeah,it's,Iactually,Imeanclothes,makeupandtucking,allthethingswe'retalkingabouttodayareself-repair,ritual.Youknow,youspendsomuchtimewithyourself,youknow,twotothreehoursbeforeashowchangingeverythingthatyouwant.Thatisreallyimportant.

Caitlin-voiceover: I'vehadmyhaircroppedshortforabouttwoyearsnow,butIrememberwithabsoluteclarityhowitfeltthatfirstafternoonIwalkedaroundwithshorthair.Itwasoneofthemostpurelyuncomplicatedly,happydaysofmylife.SuddenlyIknew.IknewwhatitwasliketolookabitmorelikeIfeltinsideandIwassogreedyformoreofit.Ithrewoutmydressesandmyheeledboots.Iboughtmyfirstbinder.

Amrou: Iwanttohearaboutthemechanicsofwhatyoudo-binding.

Caitlin: Binding.Imean,whenIboughtmyfirstbinder,Iwaslikeabsolutelyterrifiedthatitwassomehowgoingtobe,um,likesomesortofpainfulcorsetrylikeIwassendingmyselfbacktothe1800s.Sobasicallythemechanicsofitis,it'slikealongstretchycroptopwithquitearigidpieceoffabricacrossthefront.Soit'spulledvery,verytightacrossyourchest,whichkindofsquishesitandturnsbreastsintopecsorasoftercurveatleast.Um,andlookingatyourselfinthemirrorforthefirsttimeandseeinglikeasmoothlinethere,puttingonablazerforthefirsttimeanditjustfallingkindofcorrectlyforme.LikeI'vegotverywidehipsandanarrowwaist,likeI'vegotquiteanhourglassshapenaturally,whichifIwasaladyitwouldbeawesome,butasIamnotisquitedysphoricforme.Andthere'ssomethingaboutthefactthatIcangivemyselfthiskindoflikeflat,boxy,tophalfthatmakesmyhipssortofokaysomehow,likeIcansortofdealwiththemanddealwiththecurve.Becauseitmakesyouincongruousand

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that'sempoweringandthathelpsmewithmydysphoria.LikeIalwaysthinkthatthebinderworksevenwhenI'mnotwearingit,thatitmakesmefeelmorelikeIknowwhoIam,thatactuallylikehavingitasatalismanevenwhenit'snotactuallyphysicallychangingmybody.It'sthatkindofpowerfulatoolforme.

Amrou: Socouldyouexplainintermsofdysphoria…wasnotbindingyourbreastsmakingyoufeelatoddswithhowyoulooked?

Caitlin: Yeah.Thesimplestanswertothatis,like,Ihatemytits.Ihavenoneedforthem.Idon'tfeelthattheyarelikeapartofwhatmakesmeattractiveandthekindofshapeofmybody,it'sjustsortofalienating.Ijustfeelcompletelydisconnectedfromit.Like,oh,itcouldbeattractive.Oh,itcouldbeuseful.ButactuallytheonlywaysinwhichI'vefeltlikeconnectingwithmybodythroughoutmylifeisinbeingstronginlikeswimmingandwalkingandallofthosethings.

Um,andhere'sourstop.We'regoingtogomeetJamie.

Amrou: Yay,it'sgoingtobeafunday.

Caitlin-voiceover: We'reabouttomeetJamieWindust,the21-year-oldeditorofFruitcakemagazine.Fruitcakeisakindofelectricrainbowglossypageriotofqueerculture.ItlookshalfwaybetweenFrenchvogueandanundergroundzineanditisn'tshyaboutanything.It'sthekindofthingeveryqueerpersonlooksatandgoes,"Oh,IwishI'dhadthatasateenager"-whichisexactlywhyJamiestarteditup.Jamiedoesn'tlooklikeanyoneelse,letaloneanyoneelseloiteringaroundamainlinerailstationinsuburbanLondon.We'regreetedwithairkissesasJamieavoidssmearinguswiththeirfull18th-centurywhitefoundation,fourshadesofglitteringeyeshadowandlittleblackstar-shapedbeautymarks.Theirheadiscompletelyshavedandpinkrougeontheircheeksreachesuptotheirtemples.They'rewearingthreeinchblackstudbootswiththespineofsilverspikesandhead-to-toehotpink.

Jamie: It'slikeaskisuitthat'sdefinitely…Imeanit's,it'scoldnow,it'sapplicable.

Amrou: Soyousaidyouwerethrow-backingtoDiana,PrincessDianainAspen.

Jamie: Yeah.Whenyouknowwhenshejustlikegoeswiththekidsandshe'slike,"Oh,paparazzi.Ididn'tseethem!"That'smetoday.

Amrou: Isthatsomethingyoureallyrelatewith?

Jamie: (laughter)No.

Caitlin: Amrou'sinasilver,whatdowecallthis,askijacket?

Amrou: Iwouldjustsay,imagineNASAdesignedacoatanditwassomethingyoucookedafishin.

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Jamie: Therewego.

Amrou: That'sright,yeah.

Caitlin: Ifeellikewecouldbarbecueyou,butinafashionway.

Caitlin-voiceover: Meanwhile,Iamwearingdarkwashjeans,ablackcoat,andanavyjumperthatusedtobelongtomypartnerbeforeIshrunkitinthedryer.It'sbasicallymyuniform.IfIcan'tdecidewhattowear,thisistheexactcombinationIwillalwaysreachfor.IblendinonthehighstreetinawaythatPrincessDianaofAspenandtheFashionBakedPotatodon't.IaskedJamiewhatit'sliketobesovisible.

Jamie: Ialwayssaytopeople,ifIdiditfortheattention,Iwouldn'tdoit.Becauseespeciallyinpublicspaces,theattentionis99%ofthetimenegative,soIthinkit'saboutpeoplerealisingthat,especiallyinareaslikethis,youdon'tnecessarilygetasmanypeoplewhoexpressthemselveshowtheywant,orasvibrantlyasIdo.

Caitlin: Aretheredayswhereyoucan'tbebotheredwithit?

Jamie: TherearedefinitelydayswhereIworry.Youknow,itdependswhereI'mgoing.Forexample,whenIgobackhomecauseI'moriginallyfromDorset,therearetimeswhereI'mlike,doIchangewhatI'mdoing?IneveractuallydostrayfromwhatIwanttodo.Ithinkthat'ssomethingthatI'vedefinitelylearnedtodoistoneverchangeunlessthere'sanabsoluteurgencyofsafety.

Amrou: Yeah.ImeanwhenIgobacktotheMiddleEastIjustcan'twearwhatIwanttowearforlegalreasons.

Jamie: Yeah.Um,whichistough.

Amrou: WellIwasalwayswearingsortofgenderambiguousclothesatuniversitywhenitwasthefirsttimeIwasawayfrommyparents.ButwhenIdiddrag,IworeablackIslamicabaya,whichisbasicallylikealongtranslucentblackkindoflacewithgoldembroideryeverywhere.Iliterallylookedatthemirror,Iwaslike,itjustbroughteverythingtogether.'CauseIwasonlyallowedtowearboyclothesintheMiddleEast.ButthestuffthatIlovedabouttheMiddleEastwasmymum'sclothesandthecoloursandthefemininityoftheMiddleEast.Peoplethinkit'ssuchamaleculture,butit'sactuallyaveryfeminineandemotionalandtactileandit'sallaboutfeastingandcolour.It'sreallybeautiful.AndInever,Iwasalwaysjealousinthemosqueofgettingtoseethoselongbillowythings.SoIthinkwhenIdidthatindrag,Irememberlookinginthemirrorandhadnosenseofdysphoria.Thatis,Iwaslike,that'sallofit.That'smyculture.That'sme.That'smygender.It'slikeeverything.Um,I,'causeIhadaquitebadhatecrimehappentomeinJulyandoneofmydragsistersgotbeatupafterashow.Ihavebeen,I'venoticedI'vebeenwearingmoremaleclothesinpublicrecently.

Jamie: Yeah.

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Amrou: IthinkIjustneedtogetoverthat.Atthemoment.I,IweartheclothesIreallywanttowearonstageandIgettodothateverynightatthemomentbut…

Jamie: That'sgreat.

Caitlin: So,itsortofgetsit.

Amrou: Igettodoit.

Jamie: Yeah.

Amrou: IwishIhad.Myconfidencehadtakenarealknock.

Jamie: Yeah.It'shardisn'tit?Whenthathappenstonothavethedysphoriakindofcomebackabit,andweneedtobelike,whycan'tIjustdowhatIwasdoing?Butum,whenyoursafetyisatrisk,it'sdifficult.

Amrou: Yeah.Butdoingitonstageisreallylovelybecausethat's,like,everynight.Sotheperformanceishappeningontheroadand,like,thehonestyishappeningonstageatthemoment.

Jamie: Whatatagline!

Caitlin: Doyourememberthefirstoutfitthatyouputonandyouwerelike,yes!

Jamie: Yeah,therewasdefinitelyamomentandwasn'tnecessarilythefirstfemmeoutfitthatIwore,butitwasthefirsttimethatIworeaskirtoutinpublic.AndIrememberitisn'tactuallyeventhatlongago,itwaslikethreeyearsagoandIwasjustgoingfordinnerwithmyfriendsandIwasjustlike,thisfeelslikegreat,andIfeelveryempowered,likeIwasinasafespacewithmypeople.Andlikeforme,IthinkonceI'vebrokenthatboundaryofdoingitonce,Ithendon'treallybataneyelidwhenIdoitagain.Iliterallydon'tcare.Ifeelcute,whichisbasicallyallthatIthink...

Caitlin: It'ssortofwhatweweretalkingaboutwithdysphoriaandidentity,kindof.It'sgottobeinternalbeforeit'sexternaland...

Amrou: Funny,Ihadareallyuncomfortableconversationwithsomeonerecentlywhere,andIwaswearingadressout,anIslamickindofdress,andum,someonesaidthatIdidn'tseemtohavemuchcareformysafetybecauseIwaswearingsomethingthatIreallyfeelcomfortableinit.

Jamie: Yeah.

Amrou: Bothracially,likeit'sintouchwithmyheritage,butit'salsomuchmoreintouchwithhowI'mfeeling.AndIfeltconfidentthatdaytodoit.Anditwaslike,whatareyousayinghere?Youknow,I'mnotdoingthistogetviolenceagainstme.

Jamie: Exactly.

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Caitlin-voiceover: Iworriedthisconversationwouldbefrivolous,clearlynot.

Caitlin: So,whichrackdoyouguysstartwith?

AmrouandJamie: Ialwaysgototheshoes.

Jamie: OhmyGod.

Amrou: Ineedshoesfrom—pleasetellmethere'sasizenine,please.

Caitlin-voiceover: Agoodcharityshopislikenothingelse.Agoodcharityshopisallaboutadventure.

Amrou: Howdoyoufigureoutthesize?Thisisreallyimportanteverybody.

Caitlin: It'sa38sothat'sa5andahalf.

Amrou: Well,youwin.

Caitlin-voiceover: Aboutteamwork.

Caitlin: Okay.Someone,oneofyoutallpeoplehastogetthatbackup.

Caitlin-voiceover: Aboutpossibility.

Jamie: Ididactuallylookatsomepicturesofmyselftheotherday.Iusedtoalwayswearatie.

Amrou: Ifindthemlikenoosesforme,Igetanitch.Igetsostressedbybeingcorsetedinone.

Caitlin: Oh,Ilovethem.

Caitlin-voiceover: IgetwhyJamieandAmrouaren'tintoties,butwhatseemscoolandoutthereformeissooftenwhatbothofthemaretryingtoescape.

Caitlin: Thisisabitmoremyscenebecauseeverythingislikemutedcolorsmostly.

Amrou: What?Whatareyoulikingthatyou'relookingat?

Caitlin: I'vejustpromisedthepersonIlivewiththatI'mnotgoingtobuyanymorenavyjumpers.Whatdoyouthinkthe,like,Venndiagramoverlapoflikemasculinenon-binarypeopleandfemininenon-binarypeopleis?'CauseIthinkit'slikeajumpsuitandarollneck.

Amrou: That'sareallygoodquestion.Likealongshirtmaybe,justlikeareallylongoverflowyshirt.

Caitlin: Whichlooksgreatwithabinder.

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Amrou: Akaftan?Nope.That'sjustsomethingIwanttowear.Sorrytoimposethatonallofyou.

Caitlin: Ijustlikeablazer.Ooh.

Amrou: Isn'tithardtofindagood-fittingmen'sblazeronanassignedfemaleatbirthbody?

Caitlin: Yeah,andthat'swhythebinderissogoodbecauseitdoes,itpusheseverythingupabit.Butthehip,it,itdependsonhowlongitisbecausethehip,uh,situation,uh,sometimeslikepulls,the,theniceshapeofthenicejacketaway.

Jamie: Yeah.

Caitlin: Alsomyshouldersareverynarrow.

Amrou: Isithardtofindagoodsuit?

Caitlin: Yeah.Iactuallyhavediscoveredthatthelikeboyfriend-stylefemalesuitsactuallylookmuchmorebutchonmethanmen'ssuitsdosometimesbecausetheydon'tclingtoyourhipsinthesamewayasmensuitsdobecausethey'renotexpectinghipstobethere.

Jamie: Yeah.

Caitlin: Thatismystrategynow.

Jamie: Therewego.

Caitlin: Andjustalotof,like,plaid.

Amrou: Shouldwegodownstairs?

Caitlin: "Pleasevisitourlowersalesfloor."Let'sdoit.

Amrou: Thereyougo.Ooh.

Caitlin: Ooh,thisisgood.

Amrou: Oh,wehaveenteredNarnia,everybody.

Jamie: Oh,Iloveitdownhere.

Amrou: We'vegonedownstairsandthisiswheretherealstuff.

Jamie: Thedownstairsofcharityshopsismyfavourite.

Amrou: Ilovetheseleathertrousers.Thoseareiconic.What's,whatsizearethey?No,itdoesn'tsay...Medium.

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Jamie: Ireckonyeah.

Amrou: Doyoureckon?DoIhavetode-mannequinthisperson?

Jamie: De-dressher?She'sconsenting.

Caitlin: Ican'tbelieveyougenderedthismannequin.

Jamie: Yeah.Notthetime…orthisplace.

Caitlin: Goodpinktweedgoingonhere.

Jamie: Ilovethecoats.Ineedanewbigcoat.

Caitlin: Ijustwant...

Amrou: I'mkindofobsessed.

Caitlin: Showus.

Amrou: I'mgoingtogetthese.

Caitlin: Theylookamazing.

Caitlin: Theylooksocool.

Amrou: Doyoulikethem?

Person: Oh,Ilovethem.

Caitlin: They'repleatherandstretchyand...

Amrou: IhavetosayI'mreallylikingwhatthey'redoingformybum.LikeIfeellikeitjustmakesitalotmorepert.

Jamie: They'reactuallyvery,verytight.

Amrou: BecauseI'mnothavingmuchluckatthemomentwithboysandIfeellikethismighthelp.

Woman: Iknowthefeeling,sweetie.

Caitlin-voiceover: Givethiswomanapodcast.

Jamie: Isthatokay?

Amrou: Sorryyourmannequin'snowhalf-naked.

Caitlin: Whatshouldweputontheminstead?Themannequin.

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Woman: Unlessyouwanttodressthemannequin?

Amrou: Canwe?Doyoumind?Canwemakethemgenderambiguous?CanwecangiveyouthetaskofmakingthemthecoverstarforFruitcake?

Woman: Sothere’safemalegenderneutralmodelandamalegenderneutralmodel.There,ifyouwanttodressthemit'sfinewithme.

Caitlin: Thankyousomuch.

Jamie: Thankyou.

Amrou: Thankyousomuch.It'snicetofindanally.

Caitlin: We'vegotanassignedfemaleatplasticandassignedmaleatplasticmannequinshere.

Jamie: Whydon'tIjustputmyskisuitonher?

Caitlin: Whatareyougoingtowear?

Jamie: That'sverytrue.

Caitlin: CanItryonthisboringdenimjacketliketheabsolutestraightmanthanIam?

Amrou: Whichone?Oh,Ilovethat.

Caitlin: Anditfitsovermyenormouships.Great.

Amrou: Areyougonnagetit?

Caitlin: Yes,I'mgonnagetit.

Amrou: Youlookiconic.

Caitlin: Thankyou.WillsomeoneremindmethatIhavetopayforthisjacket,whichIamnowwearing?

Amrou: CanIjustsay,quiteintothat?

Caitlin: Yeah?YouwantaNikesportsbra?I'vebeentryingtogetawayfromNikesportsbrasmyentirelife,butyoudoyou.

Amrou: Isn'titsofunny?Iwantwhatyou'retryingtogetawayfrom.

Caitlin: Ifonlywe'dmetayearago,Icould'vegivenyouallofmylikeswishyfemmeclothes.

Jamie: We'vegotprogress.

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Caitlin: Ooh.

Amrou: Yougotiton!

Jamie: Thejeansareonournewmannequinfriend.

Caitlin: Oh,shelooksgreat.That'sagoodcolourcombo.

Jamie: Herfliesareundonebytheway.

Caitlin: Jamie,nowthatyou'reonthefloor,Icanseethatyou'vegotbeautifulglitterinyourscalp.

Jamie: DoI?

Caitlin: Howwascuttingyourhairoff?Howdidthatfeel?

Jamie: ItwasgreatbecauseI'madramaqueen.Ididn'ttellasinglesoulandthenjustappeared.

Amrou: Whatwastheintentionbehindit?

Jamie: Theshave?

Amrou: Yeah.

Jamie: Well,a)IwasabitboredofconstantlychangingthecolourofmyhairandalsoIwasjustlike,it'satest.Itwasuh,classicqueerpeoplebeingreallylikephilosophicalallthetime,butit'slikeit'satesttoseeifmyfemininityisstillatpeaklevels.

Caitlin: Andhowdoyoufeellookingatyourself?

Jamie: Ithinkit'sevenbetter.IthinkI'vepeakedthepeak.

Caitlin: Yeah,theglitterneverreallycomesoff,right?

Jamie: Ever.

Caitlin: IthinkIhaven'tseenAmrouwithoutglitteraroundtheireyes.

Amrou: Really?

Caitlin: Yeah.

Amrou: Yeah,it'sarealissueactually.Eveninmyapartment.I'mworriedthatwhenIgetforcedoutofmytenancy,likethereisglittereverysingleorificeofme,ofthehouse.

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Jamie: TheworstthingiswhenIhavetohavehadtosegregateitfullyonmymakeuptable.

Caitlin: Becauseitgetsintoeverything.

Amrou: Everybrush.It'sineverybrush.

Jamie: Mysponges,I'llputitonandthenI'lljustsolidifyitintomyface.

Caitlin: Makeupformeit'slikeaoneofthereally,reallyconfusingthings'causeIhavethisoneshimmeryeyeshadowwhichIreallylikewearingandI'mlike,hmm,maybeI'mnotnon-binaryifI'mwearingshimmeryeyeshadow.

Amrou: What?

Jamie: Oh,no,no,no.

Amrou: Whyisthat?

Caitlin: Whyisitgendered?

Jamie: Yeah,Iknowwhatyoumean.IthinkbecauseI'massignedmaleatbirth,Ithinkit'snotdifferent,butIunderstandyourthoughtprocesseswiththedifference.

Caitlin: Itfeelstransgressiveforyouandkindofnottransgressiveforme.

Amrou: ThisissomethingI'vegotrealissuewith.Ithinkit'sasocietalthingandthat'snotyourthingtoworryabout.Youdowhateverfeelscomfortableforyou.

Jamie: Youputthatglitteryeyeshadowon.

Caitlin: That'slikeagoodpoint.Thatactuallymakeupdoesn'tbelongtowomen.AndJamie,thewaythatyoudoyourmakeupishowmendidtheirmakeupintherestorationperiod.

Jamie: Exactly.

Amrou: Ineverthoughtofthat.

Caitlin: Yeah.NotEnoughpeoplebringupthecourtofCharlesIIindiscussionsofgenderidentity.

Jamie: Peoplewillalwayssay,"Oh,youlooklikeBowieandlikeLeighBowery,"andkindofthemalepeoplefromthe80swhohavethatlevelofdrama.Ithinkthat'ssometimesmaybewhyIgetmisgenderedjustbecausetheythinkit's,youknow,recentlyI'vehadalotofpeoplebelike,areyoujustlikeaperformanceartist?Constantly.AndI'mlike,what?Likeofsorts,I'mlikeno.LikeifIstandoutside,soearlier,inWimbledonIgetthisalot.IfIjust,I'mstoodinthestreet,onthephoneorsomething,peoplethinkI'mlikesomeone,aperformerorlike,likeIshouldhavealittlecoinpurseonthefloor.Ithinkit'sbecauseoflikethepeople,

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youknow,thefamousfacesoftheerasgonebywhodidmakeuplikemine,whoweremenwhosometimesIsometimesgetconfusedwith,butIthinkIjustdrawinspirationfromthem.

Jamie: Ithinkit'squitenaïveforpeopletobelike,"YoulooklikeDavidBowie,soyoumustliterallybetryingtobe,DavidBowie."

Amrou: Right.

Caitlin: Well,IdrawalotofinspirationfromDavidBowieaswell,butyouknow,likethere'sakindoflookthathehadwherehe'sgotreallytightfittedshirtandthissortofslimlongupperbodyandthenthebigwidetrousersthat'slike,that'sactuallysuperaffirmingformeandmygenderbecauseI'mlike,yeah,Icanbewidehippedandstillqueer-lookingand,andyouknow,itdoesn'thavetobe,uh,ahighlyperformativething,butIfeellikethefactthatlotsofthe,um,imagesthatwehavewithqueerpeopleareofqueerperformerskindofassociatesthosetwothingsinpeople'sminds.Right.

Amrou: Totally.

Caitlin: ButIthinkthatthat'slikeaninterestingthingabout,um,thekindofdifferenceinournon-binaryexperiencesaswell.Thatformeinvisibilityis,iskindofniceinalotofways.

Jamie: Yeah.

Caitlin: Whereasforyoutwo,thehyper-visibilityofpresentingfemmeinawaythatit'stransgressiveorpeopleperceiveastransgressiveissodifferent.

Jamie: Yeah.It'soneofthosethingsthatIthinkwe,althoughwearehypervisible,wedon'tnecessarilyalwayswanttobevisible.

Amrou: Yeah,Iagree.

Jamie: DoyouknowwhatImeanlikecausesometimesit'slikeIknowIhadalotofnon-binarypeoplesaythatthehyper-visibilityisn'tnecessarilytheirchoice.It'snotsomethingthatwedecidedwouldhappen.It'sjustsomethingthatdoeshappenasaresultofuh,expression.Andyeah,Ithinkit's,peoplelaughwhenIsaythisbutlikeit'sa,itwouldbenicetosometimesbeinvisibleeventhoughIliterallylooklikearainbow.It'ssometimesnicetobeinspaceswhereyou'renotridiculouslyhyper-visible.

Amrou: Yeah.AndIthinkaboutpeoplealwayssaythatwithmewithdrag.Likeohyou'reaskingforattention.It'ssovisibleandit'sactuallylikesometimesthedragisrevealingtheartificialityofitall;it'srevealingyourproblems.Unfortunatelyitsometimescanmakemesovisible.SometimesIloveit.It'sapoliticalstatement,butsometimesjustlikeyou'realmostjustrevealingtheinvisibilityofeveryoneelse'sgendercodesandyou'rejustbeingreallyhonestandthatisveryvisibleforyou.Butsometimesit'snotlikeachoice.It'sachoice

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formetobemoreinvisible.Ihavetobelike,I'mgoingtodisguisetodayandbemoreinvisible.

Caitlin: That'swhatyou'retalkingabouttheperformanceisonthestreetratherthanonthestage.

Amrou: Yeah.

Jamie: TherearedayswhereIwanttobepoliticalinwhatI'mwearingbecauseIthinkinherentlywe'realwaysdoingsomethingpoliticallybold,butweexpressfemmeinpublic,um,buttherearesomedayswhereIjustenjoythatlevelofriotalittlebitmore.Um,butagain,IthinkthatstillisimportanttoknowthatalthoughI'mdoingthatandthat'showIfeel,itdoesn'tconsenttheviolenceorthe,youknow,thetransphobiathatcomeswiththat.

Caitlin: Andintermsofactuallyenjoyingpeoplelookingatyouaswell,youknow,youdon'tdressforotherpeoplenecessarily,butum,peoplefindyoucompellingorattractiveiswell,it'spartofmylife.IenjoyitwhenpeoplefindmeattractiveIguess.

Jamie: Yeah.

Amrou: Well,yeah.

Caitlin: Idon'tknow.Isthat,yeah.Howdokindofnavigateyourlikegenderaswellasfeelingkindofsexy?Iguess.

Jamie: It'sadifficultone.Averydifficultonebecausethere'slotsoflinesandlotsofkindofthingsthatareveryclosetoeachother,likefetishismisnottoofarawayfromjustlikeattraction.WhatIfoundisdating,Ialwaysendupspeakingtopeoplewhoarelikethecompleteoppositetome.Whichtheninmyheadringsalarmbells'causeI'mlike,what'syourmotive?

Amrou: Right.

Jamie: ButIthinkI'mgottoapointwhereI'mjustverytransparentandhonestandlike,youknow,we'renotmindreaderssoI'lljustaskpeople.Obviously,I'mnotgoingtobelike,areyoufetishisingme?ButI'djustbelike,what?What'sthegighere?Whatareyoulookingfor?

Amrou: Icompletelyagreewiththat.Imean,IfoundthatwhenI've,itjusthappenedrecently,I'vemetguyswhowhenI'mreallyfemmepresentingoutinanightcluborI'vejustdoneashowandthesewhitecis,guyscomeuptome.I'mlike,"Ohcool.Yeah,we'llgoonadate."Andthenwhentheyrealiseit'sakindoffemmeness[sic]thattheycan'tcontrol,theygetturnedoffafterlikedatetwo.Theywerereallyintoitwhenitwaslike,"Oh,youwerejustreallyfunandfemme,"butwhenitwaslikeapoliticalfemmeoranintellectualfemmeorlikeI'mgoingtoactuallychallengeeverythingthatyouthink,it'slike,"Ican'tcontrolthis."

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Jamie: Yeah.

Amrou: I'venoticedwhenIputphotosofmeindragonTinder,whichIdonow,just'causelikeit'sjustsopartofmylife,it'slikematchesgolike,[noiseindicatingareductioninmatches].

Jamie: Yeah.

Amrou: Butthat'sjust,that'snotmyproblem,that'ssociety'sproblem.

Caitlin: Yeah.

Jamie: Yeah.Igotalotofmenjustbelike,"Canyouwearthis?"

Amrou: Really?

Jamie: LikeifI'dbespeakingtothemforabitandthey'dseemnormalandthentheyputout,"Canyouwearthis?Canyouaddthis?Canyoudothis,canyoublah,blah,blah."AndI'dbelike,"Okay,Whoa,absolutelynot."

Caitlin: It'sinterestingwhatyou'resayingaboutlikepoliticalfemininitybecauseIalwayswonderandIfeellikemaybeifIhadbeenbetteratperformingfemininity,Iwouldn'tfeelasdysphoricasIhave.AndIwonderiflikeforeitherofyou,thefeelingofhavinglikeaweirdornegativerelationshipwithyourbodyiskindofaboutlikesomefailuretoperformmasculinityaswell.

Amrou: Forme,initiallyalittlebit,Iwasliketrying,yeah.GrowingupIwasforcedtobemasculine.Iwasreally,reallybadatit.Um,butactuallyIdon'tthinkthatmyfemmenessisaresponsetohavingfailedmasculinity.It'sjustthatmasculinityjustdidn'tsuitme.

Caitlin: Yeah.

Amrou: Idon'tthinkmasculinityisminetofail,asfemininityisyourstofail.

Jamie: Like,Iagree.There'sstilldefinitelytimeswhereI,ItakethatmasculineenergyandIactuallyturnitintosomethingfemme.SolikeI'llfeelmasculinebutinadressorI'llfeelitbutI'llbeinlikeasuitthat'smaybedesignedforsomeonewho'sassignedfemaleatbirth,butI'llfeelpowerfulinit.Soit'saboutliketurningthelevelsofmasculinitythatyoufeelintopowermomentsforyouratherthanbeinglike,"Irejectmasculinity."IfIcanusethatandspinitintosomenon-binarykindofpowerfromthatmasculinity,thenItryto.

Caitlin-voiceover: JamieWindust,droppingpearlsofwisdomandcharmingeverycharityshopmanagerinthe'burbs.

Caitlin: Okay,soIwenttoadifferentcharityshoptoday.

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Caitlin-voiceover: EveryconversationIhavewithmorenon-binarypeoplefeelslikeopeningupalayerofweirdnessandinsecurityandthrowingitaway.Now,eventhoughI'minthesamenavyjumperandjeansasusual,IfeellikeIcouldwearanythingandstillfeellikemyself.SoIdecidedtodosomethingI'venotdonefortwoyearsjusttocheck.

Caitlin: Iboughtadress.It'ssortofblackandred,it'sgotflowersonit.Yeah,dunno,maybeitwouldlookgoodonAmrou.MaybeI'llgiveittothemattheendofthis.

IguessthepointofthisexerciseisifIcanstillkindoffeellikemyself;tofigureoutwhetherI'mstrongenoughtowearadress…andsostupid.LasttimeIworeadress,Ijustfeltreallyweirdallday.Um,andIthink,andit'sgivenmeadisproportionatefearofthedressasanobject.Allright.FirstIhavetotakeherofftheveryclumpy,verygenderneutralshoes,apairofmassivewoollymen'ssocksandjeans,andabigflannelshirt.Andthenit's,um,justthebinder,Idohaveactually,letmegointomycupboard.Iprobablystillhavethebra,theonebraIownwhichIboughttosewintomyweddingdressfouryearsago.Yup.Hereitis.It'slikea,it'slikeapuzzle.It'sgotlike,it'sgotlikesomanystraps.Wow.Thatfeelsweird.

Hereisthisdress.There'sanotherverygoodcharityshoppurchase.AndIdid,IwalkedinandIthought,whichofthedressesonthisracklookslikethedressesIusedtowear.AndIpickedthisoneinaboutfourseconds.Walkedoutagain.OhGod.It'skindof,Isortof,Icannowappreciatethatthisisareasonablynicedress.IthinkwhoeverinheritsaftermewillprobablyenjoyitmorethanIamcurrentlyenjoyingit,butIdon'tfeellikeselfdestructiveaboutitasIthinkIprobablywouldhavedoneayearago,butIdon'tknow.

I'mlookingintothemirrornowanditjustfeelslikedrag.

Caitlin-voiceover: Butwhatdoesdragactuallyevenmean?That'saconversationforthenextepisode.

Amrou-voiceover: You’vebeenlisteningtoNB.Presentedbythem,CaitlinBenedict.

Caitlin-voiceover: Andthem,AmrouAl:Kadhi.

Amrou-voiceover: YoucanfindusbothonTwitter.Caitlinis@caitlinbenny

Caitlin-voiceover: Amrouis@glamrou

Amrou-voiceover: NBwasproducedbyArlieAdlington,CaitlinBenedictandGeorgiaCatt.

Caitlin-voiceover: TheeditorwasAliceFeinstein.

Amrou-voiceover: ItwasaBBCRadioArtsproductionforBBCSounds.

Caitlin-voiceover: SubscribetoNB,thebestpodcast,onBBCSounds.

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Amrou-voiceover:Thereareotherpodcastsontheretoo…

Caitlin-voiceover:Butthisisthebestone.

Transcriptends.