MS. MARGIE DAUSTER · 2020. 5. 9. · Page | 2754 B&B Reporters 001 202-544-1903 ALSO PRESENT: MS....
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Page | 2753 B&B Reporters 001 202-544-1903 INTERNATIONAL CENTRE FOR THE SETTLEMENT OF INVESTMENT DISPUTES - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x In the Matter of Arbitration : Between: : : GABRIEL RESOURCES LTD. and GABRIEL : RESOURCES (JERSEY) LTD., : : Case No. Claimants, : ARB/15/31 : and : : ROMANIA, : : Respondent. : - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x Volume 10 HEARING ON THE MERITS Thursday, December 12, 2019 The World Bank Group 1225 Connecticut Avenue, N.W. C Building Conference Room C3-150 Washington, D.C. The hearing in the above-entitled matter came on at 8:30 a.m. before: PROF. PIERRE TERCIER, President of the Tribunal DR. HORACIO A. GRIGERA NAÓN, Co-Arbitrator PROF. ZACHARY DOUGLAS, Co-Arbitrator
Transcript of MS. MARGIE DAUSTER · 2020. 5. 9. · Page | 2754 B&B Reporters 001 202-544-1903 ALSO PRESENT: MS....
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INTERNATIONAL CENTRE FOR THE SETTLEMENT OF
INVESTMENT DISPUTES
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x
In the Matter of Arbitration :
Between: :
:
GABRIEL RESOURCES LTD. and GABRIEL :
RESOURCES (JERSEY) LTD., :
: Case No.
Claimants, : ARB/15/31
:
and :
:
ROMANIA, :
:
Respondent. :
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x Volume 10
HEARING ON THE MERITS
Thursday, December 12, 2019
The World Bank Group
1225 Connecticut Avenue, N.W.
C Building
Conference Room C3-150
Washington, D.C.
The hearing in the above-entitled matter came on
at 8:30 a.m. before:
PROF. PIERRE TERCIER, President of the Tribunal
DR. HORACIO A. GRIGERA NAÓN, Co-Arbitrator
PROF. ZACHARY DOUGLAS, Co-Arbitrator
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ALSO PRESENT:
MS. SARA MARZAL YETANO
Secretary to the Tribunal
MS. MARIA ATHANASIOU
Tribunal Assistant
Court Reporters:
MR. DAVID A. KASDAN
MS. MARGIE DAUSTER
Registered Diplomate Reporters (RDR)
Certified Realtime Reporters (CRR)
B&B Reporters
529 14th Street, S.E.
Washington, D.C. 20003
Interpreters:
MS. MARLIENA FILIP
MS. ALEXANDRA IULIANA MLADEN
MS. ALEXANDRA DOBRIN
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ALSO PRESENT:
Attending on behalf of the Claimants:
MS. ABBY COHEN SMUTNY
MR. DARRYL LEW
MR. BRODY GREENWALD
MR. PETR POLÁŠEK
MR. HANSEL PHAM
MR. FRANCIS VASQUEZ JR.
MR. ANDREI POPOVICI
MS. GABRIELA LOPEZ
MR. FRANCIS LEVESQUE
MR. WILLIAM STROUPE
MS. NATALIA TCHOUKLEVA
MR. JACOB TRUMM
MS. DARA BROWN
MS. ALYSSA HOWARD
White & Case, LLP
701 13th Street, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005
United States of America
MR. FLORENTIN TUCA
MS. IDA-LEVANA ZIGMUND
MS. ANCA DIANA PUSCASU
MS. OANA-MIRUNA URECHE
MS. RUXANDRA NIŢĂ MS. ANGELICA-IULIANA HOGAŞ-PINTILIE MR. CORNEL POPA (via video for Prof. Birsan)
Ţuca Zbârcea & Asociaţ ii Sos. Nicolae Titulescu nr. 4-8
America House, Aripa de Vest, et. 8
Sector 1, 011141, Bucuresti
Romania
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APPEARANCES:
Represent Gabriel Resources Ltd.:
MR. SIMON LUSTY
MR. RICHARD BROWN
Representing Roş ia Montană Gold Corporation:
MR. MIHAI BOTEA
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APPEARANCES: (Continued)
Attending on behalf of the Respondent:
DR. VEIJO HEISKANEN
MR. MATTHIAS SCHERER
MS. NORADÈLE RADJAI
MS. LORRAINE de GERMINY
MR. CHRISTOPHE GUIBERT de BRUET
MR. DAVID BONIFACIO
MR. BAPTISTE RIGAUDEAU
MS. EMILIE McCONAUGHEY
MS. NICOLE CHALIKOPOULOU
MR. PATRICIO GRANE
MS. STELA NEGRAN
Lalive
35, rue de la Mairie
CH - 1207 Geneva
Switzerland
DR. CRENGUŢA LEAUA MS. ANDREEA SIMULESCU
MS. MIHAELA MARAVELA
MS. LILIANA DEACONESCU
MS. ANDREEA PIŢURCĂ MS. ANDRA SOARE FILATOV
Leaua Damcali Deaconu Paunescu
10 Zborului Street, sector 3
030595, Bucharest
Romania
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C O N T E N T S
PAGE
WITNESSES:
WITOLD HENISZ
Direct examination by Mr. POLÁŠEK
Polášek................2764
Cross-examination by Dr. Heiskanen...............2769
Redirect examination by Mr. Polášek..............2828
Questions from the Tribunal......................2836
ROBERT BOUTILIER
Direct presentation..............................2849
Cross-examination by Dr. Heiskanen...............2885
Redirect examination by Mr. Polášek..............2973
Questions from the Tribunal......................2978
IAN THOMSON
Direct presentation..............................2994
Cross-examination by Mr. Polášek.................3025
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P R O C E E D I N G S 1
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Good morning, ladies and 2
gentlemen. I welcome you in this tenth Day of the 3
First Session of hearings in the ICSID Arbitration 4
Case 15/31 between Gabriel Resources Limited and 5
Gabriel Resources (Jersey) Limited. 6
I would like first few points, the first 7
point again and again thanking Court Reporters for 8
their Transcript, thanking our Secretary for the 9
Report on the time. The time is, indeed, an issue. 10
As we decided yesterday, we have started now at 8:30 11
already. We'll also start tomorrow morning at 8:30, 12
so already an hour gain. We are ready to work this 13
evening until at 6:30 and we still have reserve time 14
tomorrow afternoon in order--no need to do that. We 15
don't want to give now the time because it seems to us 16
if it is good to go forward and to see how it looks 17
like. 18
Could you agree with this procedure? 19
MS. COHEN SMUTNY: Yes, we do. 20
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Respondent? 21
DR. HEISKANEN: Fine with us as well. 22
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PRESIDENT TERCIER: Good. In that case, we 1
may proceed with the examination of Mr. Witold Henisz. 2
WITOLD HENISZ, CLAIMANTS' WITNESS, CALLED 3
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Good morning, Mr. Henisz. 4
THE WITNESS: Good morning. 5
PRESIDENT TERCIER: You had also to wake up 6
earlier because we changed our program. 7
You will be heard in this proceeding as a 8
witness. I would like to introduce to you the members 9
of this Tribunal-- 10
MR. POLÁŠEK: Sorry, microphone, please. 11
THE WITNESS: Sorry. 12
PRESIDENT TERCIER: I would like to introduce 13
you to the Members of the Tribunal. On my left-hand 14
side, Professor Horacio Grigera Naón; on my right-hand 15
side, Professor Zachary Douglas, and we have the 16
Secretary to the Tribunal and the Assistant to the 17
Tribunal, and I admit that you have already understood 18
who are on each side of the table. You will be heard 19
in this procedure as a witness; as such, I would like 20
to invite you to read the Declaration that I think you 21
have before you. 22
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THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare upon my 1
honor and conscience that my statement will be in 2
accordance with my sincere belief. 3
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Thank you. No, this 4
isn't the one. This is an expert. It should be the 5
Witness. 6
Sorry, it's not that I mistrust you, if you 7
will, according to your credentials, but indeed you 8
have to read the right one. 9
THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare upon my 10
honor and conscience that I shall speak the truth, the 11
whole truth, and nothing but the truth. 12
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. You have prepared 13
for this procedure a witness statement that has been 14
dated the 21st of October 2018. 15
Have you this document in front of you? 16
THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. 17
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Can you confirm the 18
content of this document or you wish to make 19
amendments? 20
THE WITNESS: I confirm this is my statement. 21
I have no wish to make an amendment. 22
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PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. I do not think it 1
is necessary for me to explain to you how it will--how 2
the examination will be conducted. I will ask you one 3
or two questions, then direct and cross and redirect. 4
Just one important point, as you know, we 5
have a transcript, and it is important for the clarity 6
of the Transcript to avoid to have overlapping during 7
the course of the examination. Fine. 8
I would like just to ask you two general 9
questions, the first question, to introduce yourself 10
very shortly, and we also have information in your 11
Witness Statement, but we would like also to know the 12
process that has been followed for the preparation of 13
your Witness Statement, please. 14
THE WITNESS: My name is Witold Henisz. I'm 15
a Deloitte Professor of Management at the Wharton 16
School of Business at the University of Pennsylvania-- 17
PRESIDENT TERCIER: I forgot to tell you that 18
you have also to speak slowly. 19
THE WITNESS: My name is Witold Henisz. I'm 20
the Deloitte & Touche Professor of Management at The 21
Wharton School of Business of the University of 22
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Pennsylvania, where I've been on the standing faculty 1
for 21 years. 2
Throughout that time, my research, my 3
teaching, my consulting focuses on the materiality, 4
the financial importance of a firm's relationships 5
with its external stakeholders, political, civil 6
society, community members, trying to demonstrate that 7
maintaining a strong relationship with these 8
stakeholders is beneficial to the organizational 9
purpose of the enterprise. This is sometimes referred 10
to as the "Social License to Operate." 11
In addition to extensive publications across 12
a wide array of academic journals, I've also consulted 13
with leading extractive companies and companies in 14
multiple industries in helping them advance their 15
internal processes to win and obtain the Social 16
License. 17
In terms of the statement, the statement was 18
drafted by myself, with consultation with counsel. 19
They provided some stylistic and other feedback, but I 20
had the final word as to the contents of the 21
manuscript--of the statement. 22
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PRESIDENT TERCIER: Thank you very much. 1
Okay. I think we may proceed with the 2
direct. 3
MR. POLÁŠEK: Good morning, Mr. President. 4
I'm Petr Polášek, counsel for Claimants. We have a 5
short direct examination. 6
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Please. 7
DIRECT EXAMINATION 8
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PRESIDENT TERCIER: Thank you very much. 5
Mr. Polášek, you have the floor. 6
MR. POLÁŠEK: Thank you, Mr. President. 7
We do have a redirect, which is a couple of 8
questions at least, so I would suggest that this would 9
be a good time to break, if we may, five minutes and 10
then we resume. 11
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay, five minutes. 12
It is a qualified break or a simple? Do we 13
have the time to go for coffee? 14
MR. POLÁŠEK: In that case, let's extend it 15
for 10 minutes and we would have time for coffee. 16
PRESIDENT TERCIER: In that case, it's a 17
qualified one. 18
Good. Sir, you remember or I tell you that 19
you are under testimony. This is a rule. That means 20
that you have not the right to speak, sorry, to 21
representatives or counsel of both sides but 22
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especially on that side. You have, of course, the 1
right to go out and take a coffee. 2
THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 3
(Brief recess.) 4
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. I think everybody 5
is--I'm sorry. Yes, Dr. Heiskanen, do you have a 6
point? 7
Can you put your microphone on, please. 8
DR. HEISKANEN: Yes. I failed to mention 9
this morning that there's a new member attending the 10
hearing on the Respondent side, George Leaua, who is a 11
member of the support team of LDDP. 12
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. Thank you for 13
answering a question that I forgot to ask as to 14
whether there are new attendees in the room. 15
On your side? 16
MR. POLÁŠEK: On our side, we have 17
Dr. Boutilier, I believe. Yes, over there. And 18
that's it. No one new on our side. 19
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Fine. Thank you. 20
So, Mr. Polášek, you have the floor for 21
redirect examination. 22
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MR. POLÁŠEK: Thank you, Mr. President. 1
REDIRECT EXAMINATION 2
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Professor Grigera Naón. 16
QUESTIONS FROM THE TRIBUNAL 17
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1
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Thank you. 2
Further questions? No. 3
So, thank you very much for your testimony. 4
So, again, now we are--you are free, if I may say so, 5
and I would like to thank you. 6
THE WITNESS: Thank you for my freedom, sir. 7
(Witness steps down.) 8
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. Now we will come 9
to Mr. Boutilier. He's in the room? Yeah, here he 10
is. 11
Do we need a short break or not? 12
MS. COHEN SMUTNY: I think just two or three 13
minutes to set up and maybe get a fresh water and 14
change the name. 15
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. 16
(Brief recess.) 17
ROBERT BOUTILIER, CLAIMANTS' WITNESS CALLED 18
PRESIDENT TERCIER: So, let's resume. 19
Good morning, Mr. Boutilier. I would like to 20
welcome you here in this room. You were present a 21
moment ago, so I don't need to introduce you to the 22
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Members of the Arbitral Tribunal. 1
I would like to invite you to read the 2
Declaration that is in front of you concerning the 3
Expert. It is by your arm. You have the microphone. 4
THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare, upon my 5
honor and conscience, that my statement will be in 6
accordance with my sincere belief. 7
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Thank you very much. 8
You have prepared for this procedure an 9
expert witness opinion in the matter of the Social 10
License to Operate dated the 1st of November 2018. 11
Have you this document in front of you? 12
THE WITNESS: Yes. 13
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Can you confirm the 14
content of this document? 15
THE WITNESS: I wrote this document. It's my 16
own opinion. 17
PRESIDENT TERCIER: And you confirm it? You 18
confirm the content of the document? 19
THE WITNESS: Yes. 20
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. In your Expert 21
Report, you--the last sentence, "If, subsequently, I 22
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consider that this opinion requires any correction, 1
modification, or qualification, I will notify the 2
Parties of this Arbitration and the Arbitral Tribunal 3
forthwith." 4
I suppose it was not the case, so it's a 5
confirmation that you're making? 6
THE WITNESS: Correct. 7
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Fine. 8
Can you, in a few words, start by introducing 9
yourself. And then the second question, just sort of 10
warming up--if I may say so--in introducing, tell us 11
how the process--what is the process that has been 12
followed for the preparation of your Report. 13
Please. 14
THE WITNESS: Okay. My name is Robert 15
Boutilier. I was born in Canada, but I live in Mexico 16
now. And my educational background is in psychology. 17
I'm a social psychologist, although my publications 18
now are more in management science and applied 19
sociology. I did marketing research and public 20
opinion polling for 20 years in Canada. 21
I was vice president of a national opinion 22
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polling company in Toronto. Around 1999 I began doing 1
stakeholder research in the mining industry and 2
developed a stakeholder approach and methodology which 3
has evolved into an approach for measuring the Social 4
License. 5
I now do consulting with mostly mining 6
companies and some infrastructure and energy companies 7
around the world, Africa, Latin America, Australasia, 8
North America. And I published four books on the 9
stakeholder relations and the Social License, a dozen 10
academic articles and chapters, and about--over 60 11
conference presentations, mostly on stakeholder 12
relations, the Social License, and a view on 13
corruption as well. 14
The process of writing this Report. I was 15
contacted by counsel for the Claimant. They asked me 16
if I would be interested in contributing to my 17
expertise in this case. I acknowledged that Dr. Ian 18
Thomson is a co-author of mine, and we worked to--the 19
first thing that happened was I reviewed a great deal 20
of material on the case that was available and then 21
tried to organize it into something that would tell 22
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the story of what level of Social License the Project 1
had. 2
And I wrote drafts of the Report, and counsel 3
commented on them. And then I re-wrote them and added 4
additional information and had the final editorial 5
control. 6
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. What was the role 7
played by Mr. Ian Thomson? 8
THE WITNESS: I had no contact with him on 9
this. We know that we are each involved in this case. 10
We have both signed confidentiality agreements. And 11
so, we look forward to the final publication of this 12
case so that we can talk about it. 13
(Laughter.) 14
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Good. It could be a good 15
proposal. 16
But you had Ian's Report-- 17
THE WITNESS: Yes. 18
PRESIDENT TERCIER: --before, and you 19
analyzed it? 20
THE WITNESS: That's right. 21
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. Fine. 22
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We have been told that you will make a 1
presentation, that is the way that you have announced, 2
and that you have one hour for that. That's correct? 3
THE WITNESS: Correct. 4
PRESIDENT TERCIER: If you could stick to the 5
time, it would be good. 6
THE WITNESS: Okay. 7
PRESIDENT TERCIER: You have the floor. 8
THE WITNESS: Thank you. 9
DIRECT PRESENTATION 10
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PRESIDENT TERCIER: Thank you very much, 9
Professor Boutilier. 10
Do you think you will start now? We have one 11
and a half hour. It's quite long, really. Will you 12
have a break now or-- 13
DR. HEISKANEN: Yeah, maybe a short break, go 14
have a cup of coffee, and then we can go on a bit 15
longer, until 1:00 o'clock or something? 16
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. So, Mr. Boutilier, 17
you know the rule. You are under testimony. So, you 18
are not allowed to have contact with the 19
representative of the counsel of this firm. 20
Of course, you are allowed to take a coffee 21
and take some time. 22
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(Brief recess.) 1
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Before going further, I 2
would like to note for the protocol that we had an 3
internal discussion with counsel for both Parties, and 4
that we have agreed that there will be no hearing on 5
Saturday morning. We will do our best to forge and 6
reach the end of this examination tomorrow evening. 7
Fine. So, now, Dr. Heiskanen, you have 8
the floor for the cross-examination of 9
Professor Boutilier. 10
DR. HEISKANEN: Thank you, Mr. President. 11
CROSS-EXAMINATION 12
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PRESIDENT TERCIER: Thank you very much, 16
Dr. Heiskanen. 17
So, we have one hour. We will start again to 18
quarter to 2:00. 19
Professor Boutilier, I again to remind you 20
that you are still under testimony, and the same rule 21
applies. Okay? But you can, of course, go out and 22
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have lunch. 1
THE WITNESS: Thank you. 2
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. Good. 3
(Whereupon, at 12:48 p.m., the Hearing was 4
adjourned until 1:45 p.m., the same day.) 5
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AFTERNOON SESSION 1
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Good afternoon, ladies 2
and gentlemen. We will resume before I have to come 3
on. One important and difficult question, it is a 4
question of the dates for the second session. 5
You remember that it had been agreed between 6
the Parties that--before I was the Chairman--that it 7
was necessary to have two weeks and that it appeared 8
that it was simply not possible. And I think now we 9
have the demonstration that it would not have been 10
possible to have 13 more witnesses and experts 11
enjoying these two weeks. 12
So, the problem is, of course, as you can 13
imagine, to find dates available and, if possible, not 14
too late. And the Members of the Arbitral Tribunal 15
have tried, first, to find dates. And the first 16
proposal we made was the week of the 13th of July. 17
Unfortunately, this is not possible for 18
Claimant because of the availability of your experts, 19
I was told. 20
Okay. So, we went back and we have 21
proposals. The earliest--but it is with a 22
Page | 2934
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caveat--would be the week of the 10th of February. 1
Would it be possible for you? Of course, you 2
don't know because you have to look at the--but if you 3
can check. But there is one caveat. It should be in 4
Paris because--I don't want to give the reasons, but 5
it should be in Paris. 6
The next would be the 17th of August. The 7
next would be the 24th of August, the week, of course. 8
And the last, 28th of September. 9
We are, of course, conscious that it is 10
extremely--it is too long, but it is due to the 11
situation--to the circumstances as it occurred. 12
Now, I would be grateful if you could see on 13
your side which dates would be--would be possible for 14
you. And I have to add, the 28th of September has 15
still a question mark. The 28th of September with a 16
question mark. 17
MR. POLÁŠEK: Mr. President, just for 18
clarification, because the previously communicated 19
earliest dates were in July of this year, are these 20
dates for the next year, 2020, or are we talking about 21
2021? 22
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Our understanding is that this is 2020, but I 1
just wanted to-- 2
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Sorry. What is the 3
question? 4
MR. POLÁŠEK: It is. Okay. Thank you. 5
I just wanted to reconfirm that these dates 6
are 2020, not 2021, but I understand these are 2020. 7
PRESIDENT TERCIER: For 2020. All good. 8
MR. POLÁŠEK: Thank you. 9
PRESIDENT TERCIER: I hope I am still alive. 10
Okay. So, if you could check what is 11
possible, really, we will do our best. 12
Good. If there are no further questions, 13
Dr. Heiskanen, you have the floor for the second part 14
of your--and, again, I don't know how long it will be, 15
but you should not be too long. 16
DR. HEISKANEN: Thank you, Mr. President. We 17
spent the lunch break looking for ways to be as 18
concise as possible. 19
CONTINUED CROSS-EXAMINATION 20
21
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PRESIDENT TERCIER: Thank you very much. 9
Do you wish that we make a short break, or do 10
you want on your side to have a short break, 11
Mr. Polášek? 12
MR. POLÁŠEK: I think we need two minutes, 13
three minutes, a very short break, and then we can 14
proceed to redirect examination. 15
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. I do not believe 16
to two minutes nor to three minutes, but we'll take 17
the time necessary, I would say. If we can just-- 18
MR. POLÁŠEK: Thank you. I think we can stay 19
put unless someone prefers a break, and we will 20
confirm that also. 21
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. Thank you. That's 22
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okay with you? 1
THE WITNESS: Yes. 2
(Pause.) 3
MR. POLÁŠEK: I think we are ready, 4
Mr. President. 5
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Yes. 6
Please, Mr. Polášek. 7
MR. POLÁŠEK: Thank you. 8
REDIRECT EXAMINATION 9
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(Witness steps down.) 10
PRESIDENT TERCIER: And we will now really 11
have a break, and then we will turn to Mr. Thomson, 12
okay? Good. So, we start again--we are extremely 13
precise, at quarter past 3:00. 14
(Brief recess.) 15
IAN THOMSON, RESPONDENT'S WITNESS, CALLED 16
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Good afternoon again, 17
ladies and gentlemen. We will now resume with the 18
examination of Mr. Ian Thomson. 19
Mr. Thomson, good afternoon. Welcome in this 20
proceeding. You were already in the room a moment 21
ago, so you have heard the examination of 22
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Mr. Boutilier. You will be heard in this procedure as 1
an expert; as such I would like to invite you to read 2
the Declaration that you have before you. 3
THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare upon my 4
honor and conscience that my statement will be in 5
accordance with my sincere belief. 6
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Thank you. 7
You have prepared for this proceeding two 8
Witness Statements, the first expert--no, sorry, 9
expert opinion in the matter of Social License to 10
Operate dated 19 February 2018, and the second titled, 11
Second Expert Opinion on the same matter, and it was 12
dated 6th of May 2019. 13
You have these two expert opinions in front 14
of you? 15
THE WITNESS: I do. 16
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. You have not 17
mentioned or communicated any changes. Can you 18
confirm it means you have no amendments or no 19
corrections to make? 20
THE WITNESS: There, I must point out an 21
error. 22
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PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. 1
THE WITNESS: In my Second Opinion, 2
Paragraph 213, it talks about in the third sentence, 3
"people, albeit in reduced"-- 4
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Wait a second. 213; 5
yeah? 6
THE WITNESS: Yeah. It's a sentence, it's 7
the fourth line down, beginning: "People, albeit in 8
reduced number," it mentions seven of whom have 9
provided Witness Statements. In my footnote I only 10
list six, so there's an error, there's an 11
inconsistency there, and that paragraph should not 12
read seven; it should read six. 13
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. We have taken note 14
of it. 15
Can you now, just to start, in a few words, 16
introduce yourself. This is my classical question, 17
the first. And the second, if you can in a few words 18
also tell us how you came to the two expert opinions 19
that you have prepared? 20
THE WITNESS: Okay, my name is Ian Thomson. 21
I'm semi-retired, supposedly, independent consultant. 22
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I was born and educated in the United Kingdom. I hold 1
a Bachelor's degree and a doctorate degree from the 2
University of London Imperial College. I have 48-plus 3
years' experience in the mining industry having worked 4
in various capacities. For the first 20-plus years 5
essentially as a technical and Management side of the 6
mining business, and mostly in mineral exploration, 7
and for the last 20-plus years essentially as a social 8
specialist and consulting, providing advice and 9
assistance to companies, to banks, to governments, to 10
communities, to non-governmental organizations, fairly 11
broad experience mostly working out with junior mining 12
companies, one way or another, mostly at the 13
exploration level, but also with operating mines and 14
with development Projects and that, I think, sort of 15
sums me up right now. I do have more information 16
which I will move through as quickly as I can. 17
PRESIDENT TERCIER: And the second question 18
concerning the process that was followed for the 19
preparation of your opinions? 20
THE WITNESS: I was approached by Lalive and 21
asked if I would review the information available 22
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around the Rosia Montana Project and provide an 1
opinion on Social License. I received written Terms 2
of Reference, and I will present them shortly as part 3
of my presentation. 4
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. Good. 5
In that case, you will start with the 6
presentation in my note 40 minutes, so you think you 7
will. 8
THE WITNESS: I hope so. 9
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Good. Please do it. 10
DIRECT PRESENTATION 11
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PRESIDENT TERCIER: Thank you very much, 8
Mr. Thomson. 9
MR. POLÁŠEK: Yes, Mr. President. 10
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Your time is 2 hours, 10 11
minutes, and we would have, then, 15 minutes' cross. 12
MR. POLÁŠEK: Yes, Mr. President. I cannot 13
promise that we will stick to it. We will do what we 14
can. But we will also need to consider the remaining 15
time that is available to us and then adjust 16
accordingly. 17
I just cannot say at this point. It depends 18
on how it will go. 19
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. But we have the 20
impression that there are still reserves. Okay. 21
CROSS-EXAMINATION 22
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MR. POLÁŠEK: Okay. I think we can break at 10
this point. 11
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. We take 15 minutes 12
and start again at 5 past 5:00. 13
You know that you are under testimony again. 14
It doesn't mean that you have to stay here, but come 15
back and have no contact with representatives or 16
counsel, okay? From Respondent. 17
(Brief recess.) 18
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. I think we can now 19
proceed. 20
Please, Mr. Polášek. 21
MR. POLÁŠEK: Thank you, Mr. President. 22
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PRESIDENT TERCIER: Mr. Polášek, sorry for 4
intervening. In 5 minutes it is 6:00. We know that 5
we have an extra time, but I would like to know how we 6
would organize now the remaining half an hour. 7
MR. POLÁŠEK: Mr. President, it is clear that 8
we will not be able to complete tonight. So, we can 9
go as long as you--you can take it as long as you 10
wish, and we will need to resume tomorrow. 11
DR. HEISKANEN: Then it may be better to 12
break now. I understand it's going to go on for 13
another hour. But we have a very short day foreseen 14
for tomorrow, 2 hours 45 minutes. So, if we add an 15
hour to that, it's still going to be a short day, and 16
we would finish early afternoon. 17
MR. GREENWALD: That's not correct. 18
MR. POLÁŠEK: We do feel that we will need to 19
use the time that is available to us. I think it was 20
pretty clear that the time would be divided equally. 21
We feel that we need to address the evidence 22
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that was presented in the Rejoinder, including 1
Dr. Thomson's Second Report, through 2
cross-examination. 3
And so, the notion that tomorrow is going to 4
be a short day, unfortunately, is not correct. It is 5
going to be a long day, and I would suggest that we 6
continue tonight as long as we can. 7
DR. HEISKANEN: It would be worth seeing how 8
much time is left for each party before-- 9
PRESIDENT TERCIER: That's what I was about 10
to ask. Yeah. 11
SECRETARY YETANO: Claimants have 6 hours and 12
23 minutes. Respondents, 4 hours and 33 minutes. 13
(Tribunal conferring.) 14
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. I think we will 15
split the baby and give you a quarter of an hour, 16
until 6:15, and then we'll break and continue tomorrow 17
morning. 18
MR. POLÁŠEK: Okay. 19
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1
MR. POLÁŠEK: Okay. Mr. President, I think 2
we can pause here and resume tomorrow. 3
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. But before that, I 4
think it's important for you to know the time that 5
will be at your disposal tomorrow to avoid any lengthy 6
discussion tomorrow. So, I would like to discuss it 7
shortly with my co-arbitrators. 8
Sorry. I wanted to do that. So, you 9
are--you have not to stay here. You are--but you know 10
that you are under testimony and that you have not the 11
right to have any conduct with representatives. Okay. 12
(Tribunal conferring.) 13
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Each party had allocated 14
34 hours and 45 minutes. That is what was in PO 26, 15
and 5 hours for the Tribunal. 16
Starting with the Tribunal, the Tribunal has 17
used over the 5 hours, 5 hours and 25 minutes. But I 18
consider it's a good sign. 19
Secondly, we cannot--if we have decided and 20
agreed that we should finish tomorrow, we cannot 21
allocate you the full time we had in mind. So, we 22
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have to reduce it. And assuming we can work tomorrow 1
during eight hours, what is already quite a long day, 2
keeping half an hour for not only the Tribunal but 3
also some other things, we have 7 hours and 30 4
minutes. 5
That means that we would reduce the time at 6
your disposal for each of you, total time allocated, 7
theoretically, at the very beginning, by 1 hour and 45 8
minutes. 9
That concretely means that Claimant will have 10
33 hours. You have used 28 hours and half an hour. 11
It means that Claimant still has 4 hours and half an 12
hour. 13
On the other side, Respondent, 33 hours, 14
minus around 30 hours that you have used. It means 15
that you have left 3 hours. 16
So, I recall for tomorrow, you would have 17
4 hours and half an hour--and 30 minutes, and 18
Respondent would have 3 hours at disposal. 19
We are aware that there will be a 20
presentation on Respondent's side. And here we have 21
the time, 20 minutes and 20 minutes. Then we will 22
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have the cross, and by--both done by Claimants. And 1
then the redirect, that could be--written 10 minutes 2
and 5 minutes. 3
But that is the calculation that we have 4
discussed. 5
Comments on your side? 6
MS. COHEN SMUTNY: We'll make it work. 7
PRESIDENT TERCIER: Thank you very much. On 8
your side? 9
DR. HEISKANEN: Yes. Likewise, we agree with 10
the allocation. 11
Just to flag. We were going to raise this 12
tomorrow morning, but we can do it now. Dr. Stoica 13
would need 30 minutes instead of 20 minutes for his 14
presentation. So, that is one comment. 15
And given that the Respondent has 3 hours 16
left, we reserve the right to extend the redirect a 17
bit more than the 10 and 5 minutes that are envisaged. 18
We may not need it, but we will certainly be 19
within the time allocated to the Respondent. 20
MS. COHEN SMUTNY: We certainly have no 21
objection to the Respondent using its time. 22
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PRESIDENT TERCIER: Okay. 1
MS. COHEN SMUTNY: As long as we can use our 2
time. 3
PRESIDENT TERCIER: You see, at the end we 4
manage to find time. Just be patient and everything 5
will be solved. 6
ARBITRATOR DOUGLAS: We have no time. 7
PRESIDENT TERCIER: We have a half hour that 8
we keep, but we will share it with the Parties in 9
order to discuss the next step of the procedure. 10
Okay? 11
Good. I wish you all a very pleasant 12
evening. 13
(Whereupon, at 6:18 p.m., the Hearing was 14
adjourned until 8:30 a.m. the following day.) 15
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CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
I, David A. Kasdan, RDR-CRR, Court
Reporter, do hereby certify that the foregoing
proceedings were stenographically recorded by
me and thereafter reduced to typewritten form
by computer-assisted transcription under my
direction and supervision; and that the
foregoing transcript is a true and accurate
record of the proceedings.
I further certify that I am neither
counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of
the parties to this action in this proceeding,
nor financially or otherwise interested in the
outcome of this litigation.
DAVID A. KASDAN
Page | 3131
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CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
I, Margie Dauster, RMR-CRR, Court
Reporter, do hereby certify that the foregoing
proceedings were stenographically recorded by
me and thereafter reduced to typewritten form
by computer-assisted transcription under my
direction and supervision; and that the
foregoing transcript is a true and accurate
record of the proceedings.
I further certify that I am neither
counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of
the parties to this action in this proceeding,
nor financially or otherwise interested in the
outcome of this litigation.
_________________________
MARGIE DAUSTER
