MR . BOIES: For t he r ecord, Mr Friedman,s2 Fried~an - direct 8735 1 MR . BOIES: For t he r ecord,...
1
Transcript of MR . BOIES: For t he r ecord, Mr Friedman,s2 Fried~an - direct 8735 1 MR . BOIES: For t he r ecord,...
~s2 Fried~an - direct 8735
1 MR . BOIES: For t he r eco rd, Mr Friedman,
2 immediately followin g the line wh e re Mr. Dor s en stopped ,
3 you then go on to talk a bout discussions with interpreters ,
4 do you not?
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, :-:..
o. ~ow I would lik e to direct your attention to
s ome testiffiony th3~ General ~estmoreland gave earli~r In
e t hls trial .
9 For the r eco rd , t hi s i s testimony that app e ar s
10 in the trial transcript at th e bottom of page 3467 and t he
, , ...... to? of 3468 • I would l ike you to listen t o th e t ~st imo ny ,
~r Friedman, and tell me whethe r based on your experienc e
in ViEtnam you agree with it .
Th e testimon y is : "\·;i th res pect to the sel f
de fens e and s ec r e t s elf-defense f orces , we are not fighting
t:10Si? people . They are ba s i cally ci v ilia ns. They don't
b~long in any represe ntation , numer ica l representatio n, of
t~E military capability of t he enemy . "
hould you a g r ee wit h t hat , sir?
MR. DORSE~: Objection , your Honor.
TH E COURT : Same grounds as p re viously?
MR. DORSEt<: Yes.
THE COURT: Ov err uled .
A. No, I would not agree with that sta tement.
Q. hhy not, sir ?
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A. Cause we did -encounte r significant hosti le act s
of t e rror from thes e people , which were responsible for
many of our casualties, if not most of them.
Q. Let me as k you to consIder another
MR . DORSn: : Your lionor, I move to strike t he
la s~ portion of the answer, your honor.
ThE ~OCRT : Ove rrul e d.
Q. Let me ask you to liste n to anot he r part of t he
lestimony that ha s b een previously given in the trial, and
this is at page 3601 6f the trial tr a nscript, and I would
like, after ~r. Dorsen has had a c hance to look u t it anJ
sae if he ha s an objection, read it to you and see whet he r
you agtee with t hi s .
THE COURT: Line?
MR. BOIES: The first five lineS of pa ge 3601
begi:lning wit h the last word on page 36 00 , che word " they ."
~R . DORSE~ : Your ho nor , I would ask th a t t he
quot a tion begin on t h e pagE 36 0 0 line 25 for context .
~\R. BOIES: Yes, I will begin at line 25 of page
36 00 .
ThE COU RT : The portion that you propose to rea d
donsn't include any sta tement of who the "they" are. It
probably occurs earlier, but it's meaningless in the way
you have excerpted it, I t hi nk.
MR. BOIES : May I confer wi t h Mr. Dorsen f e r a
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bs 2 Friedman - direc~ 8737
1 moment, yo~r Honor?
2 THE COURT : Yes.
3 (Pau s e)
4 THE COURT : "They" refers tc the P€tSO:l
5 identified on line 9 of page 36 00 ?
6 ~R. BOIES: I thin k the context is clear from
?"'ge 2595. If nEcessary , I ~111 read 1= -- I will r ead all
five pages between 3595 and 360 0 , if there is a doub=. I
9 can't think that thc=r€'s any doubt as to ;""100 t oe "they" ·,,·;as,
10 but I ' ll read ,,11 fivE pages, if ~~r. Dorsen -,)ants mo to .
II THE: COURT : Do you have a problem ~ith the
identification of "they ," Mr. Do r sen .
MR . DORSEt ; : I think I do. I \.\l ould like tv
app:oach : h e bench on it, if I may.
THE COURT: ~hy don't you SEe if you can work it
out with Mr. Boies.
(Pause)
MR . DORSEl\: Your Honor, I don't thin k WE oan
work this out without the help of the court .
(At the sidebar )
MR . DORSE!\: Your Honor, Mr. Boies obviously has
a point when he refers to s elf- defense militia . On the
oth~r hand, we are talking about adding over 100,000 people
to a figure of already 100,00 0 people, 112,000 people, and
the sta~ement is the acditional people were not fighters.
SOC TH!::R:-.' DISTR ICT REPORTER S U.s. COt; RTHOL"S E
FO !...E Y SQL' .... RE. SEW YO RK ~ '::" _ ~Ql - !J ~ J
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1 If your Honor-will recall , at t he Saigon
2 conference , MACV went up from 65,000 guerrillas to 80 , 000
3 guerrilla s , and I just think that in the contE xt , to assumE
4 that General hestmoreland was t alk ing abou t all of these
5 people a s s elf - eefense mili tia is somewh at confusing.
6 MR. BOIE S : I will read s~arting at ?ag~ 3595
7 for contExt; 3595 t hey tal k ab out self d efe ns e ane secret
8 sel f-defense. They do it twice .
9 On pag e 3596 they again tal k abo ut s e lf defEnse
10 and sec r et self - defense fo r ces. On the following page he
11 refers to them a s the "home guard" which was General
12 hestmoreland ' s way of characte r izing the self defense and
13 secr et self - defense forCES .
14 I think it is absolutely cl Ea r t ha t what t hey
15 are talking about here is the s elf defEnse and secr e t
15 s e lf - de f en se forces, but I am happy to rEad t h e who le thi ng ,
17 if that 's what we have to do.
18 THE COURT : I don ' t t h ink it's appropriate jus t
1~ to read "they . " You ha ve to have a definition of who " they "
20 wer e .
21 ~lR . BOIES: If Mr. Do r sen and I can't agree, I
22 will read t he whole thing.
23 MR . DOR SEt:: I certainly would object to reading
24 t he whole t h ing, your Honor. The point is -- of course it
25 mentions t he words self - d e fense militia , but now we a r e
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I trying to construe what ~eneral ~estmoreland had in mine
2 when he testified, and I just think that the context was a
3 cable which said we are going to come out instead of saying -
4 THE COU"T: Let me suggest this , I thinK that
5 what you can do is this, without st3ting t ha t you arc
6 reading from General ~estmo rela nd's testimony, just ask him
7 the question whether he ~ould agree with t he proposition
8 that sslf defense and secret self-defense were not fighters
9 that the U.S. forces should do battle with , they were th e
10 not the people that the U. S. forces wanted to kill but ~ere
11 basically ci v ilians.
12 uon't identify it in the questio n as General
13 ~estmoreland's testimony. Then it can ~e for ~rgument
14 later whether that was what General ~estmoreland said.
15 MR. BOIES: My second ques tion is whether it
16 would have been detrimental to his morale to count them.
MR. DORSEN : One thing, your Honor, this witness
did not get the re until after the decision was made to drop
them, so I think he has absolutely no basis for testifying
on that.
Aside from asking every single soldier whether
that would be detrimental to their morale we are talking
about Ceneral ~estmoreland's sta te of mind . This ma n ne v er
talked to General Kestmoreland and I think to have him
2S speculat e or have him testif y that I would not have ~een
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I demoralized eighteen years later is pretty far afield.
2 TEE COURT: I thin k I would sustain the
3 objectio~ to the last question.
4 MR . BOIES: This was elicited on direct
5 examination. Gen e ra l ~estmoreland got up on the witness
6 st and without any limitation of that testimony, and he
7 testified that it wo~ld be detrimental to the mcrale of ~is
8 troops to cou n t t he s e people.
9 I don't see how --
10 THE COURT: What ne meant by that here -- it's
11 not just a mat ter -- not to co unt them, I think you're
misstating what he s aid whe n he talked about co un ting them.
m:. BOIES: I will read exactly wha t he says.
THE COURT : hhat hE'S talking about is at one
point adding a larg e number of people t o the counted e ne my
force, and he's talking about a time ~h~ n t h is s o ldi e r
wasn't t he re.
l':R. BO IES : Your Honor, I thin k the soldier was
in the Army. I'm not sure whether he was in Vietnam at
that point.
THE COU RT: He went to Vietna~ in Novemb~ r o f ' 67 .
MR. BOIES: He was certainly there, yo ur Honor ,
the month the SNIE c ame out.
24 I really don't see how it's possible to pe r mi ~
25 General ~estmo relanu to g e t up on the stand and testi:y
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1 aoout whut would huve affected che morale of his t~oops
2 without asking some of his t roo ps .
3 THE COUR T : My problem, first , was with the way
4 you formulated the q uestio n , whether it would be
5 detrimental to his morale to count these people.
5 MR . BOIE S : I apologize for thut. That was
7 shorthand .
a ~nat I had originally intended to do was read
9 the exact words here and ask him whether that and that is
10 really what I plan to do. I plan to use the exact words
11 t;,at are here .
12 MR. DORSEt:: Your Honor, I cbj ecc. V-: e are now
13 going bac~ an d fort h between state of mInd and t[Ut i1 .
15
General ~estmoreland's state of mind is what IS
at issue in these passages . ~hat he believed is at issue.
Just because General ~estmoreland believed that
• it was detrimentul -- would be detrimental to the moralE
doesn't mean it opens up t he door co having ono or 100
soldiers come in and say, "My morale would not havE bee~
adversely affected."
I just think t ha t is a collateral issue ~s t o
what the actual morale of a particular soldier was at n
point distant in time -- the cable, in fact, was written in
August 1967.
This soldier never sa w an 08
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTER S. C.S. COURTHOl- SE
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I THE COU ~T: fhe testimo ny wa s given as a
2 statement of fact no t simply a s a s tatement of Gene ral
3 Westmo r eland 's belief.
4 MR . DORSEN : "I felt" page 3600 "I felt an
5 ob I igation ".
6 MR . BOlE::;: "Felt an obligation to my troops . "
7 THi: COU~1' : I will permit it.
8 (Open court )
9 BY ~~ . BCIES:
Q. Mr Friedman , would you ~grEe with a statement
th~t the self - uefense for c es were not fis h ~er5, and were
not fighte rs that the American forces wanted to do battle
\:it.: l , wer'2 not people t ha t you -""ar/ t ee to k ill, a:!c t~a:
they were basically civilians ; would you agree with that?
A. t.:o , I would not.
Q. h hy not, sir ?
A. Cause they we re forces that were hampEring our
mission in Vietnam . They were forces t hat were causing us
casualties and injuries , and they we r e forces that we
encounte r ed in almost every phase of our mission in Vietnam .
Q. Sir , wo~ld you ag re e with the s tateme nt t hat to
add 100,000 ad~itional self defense ana secret self-defens e
forces to a hard figure of enemy s t rength estimates would
~aVE been detrimental t o you r morale?
A. 1;0, I don 't agree with that . I believe it wou ld
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052 Friecman - di r ec~ 5 743 (
1 h a ve be en bett e r for my moral e to h a ve had a more accurate
2 picture of who we were fighting and whu t we were up ag a inst.
3 MR. BOIES: Your Hono r, I hav e no rr.ore qU0stions.
4 MR . DORSE~: Can I have one minute, you r Hono r ?
5 THE CO URT : Ye s. I will instruct t h e jury f ir st
6 before you examIne.
7 Members of the jury, on e of the issues that are
o disput ed as to th i s witness' testimon y is whEther, when hE
S us e s the label "self defense and secret self-def e nse" and
10 when he testifies that in cer tain operations he observed
11 self defense and secret self-defense people doing things
12 against our forces, one of the iss ues is whether he is
13 uSIng those terms to identify the sam e peop le thut are
being i~ en tified in t he order of battle an d in the
intel ligence bureaus at t h e headquarters, and it IS a
question that you s ho ul d ask your s e lf before you pa ss o n
th is witness' testimony, or i n t h e co u rse of passing on
this witne ss' testimony.
In the course of determining whether you think
this witness' testimony has significa nce f or this trial,
you shou ld as k yourself whether , when th is witness
distinguishes, for example , betwee n guerrill as , who were
included in th e order of battle, and self defense and
secr e t s el f-defense, wh o even tu a ll y were not included In
the o r der of battle , whethe r t h is witn e ss us es the
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTER S. U. S. COUR TH OL'SE
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bs2 Friedman - direct
1 distinction in the same sen s e as was used by the people at
2 heaQquarters w~o were ~ a king these counts and estimates of
3 the enemy.
4 In other words , if you conclude that h e is using
5 the s a~e distinctions a s they were using, and if, when he
5 says that somebody was in th~ self defense, as opposed to
7 being a guerrilla , fo r example , that he is using thos e
5 terms ana u s ing tllose classifications and identifying ~hem
9 in exactly the same way as they were being disting uished,
10 cla ss ified and identified by the people in the intelligence
11 units at headquarters, who were making up the order of
12 battle, and the like , then you might a t tac :) a certain value
to his testimony , if you believe it .
On the other hand , if you are not con v inced that
15 this witness understood the distinctions in the sa me way as
16 they ;.;ere unJerstooc by t hc persons at headquarters, the n
17 what he has to s ay about s elf - defense forces may well be
18 talking about som e body that the people at heacquarters
19 cla s sified as gue r rillas, and then you ;.;ould not attac h
20 importance to his tes t imony .
21 So it is up to you to declde, based on t h0
22 t e stimony that you have hea r d and will hear, whether this
23 witne s s is using those term s in the same ;.;ay in which the y
24 were used by the person s who were making out the order of
25 b~ttle and the intelligence r eports before yo u decide wha t
SOlTHER:--: DISTRICT RE PORTER S. L' .S COUnp.OL"SE
bs 2 Friedman - direct 8745
1 significance to attach to h is testimo ny.
2 Mr . Dorsen.
3 CROSS EXAMI~ATIO~
4 BY MR . DORSE N:
5 Q. Khat was your ran k , Mr Friedman?
6 A. I was -- ca me to Vietnam private 1s t class ana
7 p r omotea t o sp,=c i ulist 4t:1 c lass .
8 Q. Kould it be a ccur ate to state t hat you were
9 basically a n infantryman?
10 h . We performed with infant: y . I was an Ar;ny
11 intel1 igence s ?ecial ist. \:e actec as infantry on many
occa s ion s f o r own patrols.
Q. Yo u were not a~ intelligence offi ce r ?
A. I wa s not an intelligence officer, no.
~IR . DORSt;!; : ~o further qu est ions , your r.onor .
MR . BOIES: Is t hi s a con ven ie n t time for the
;norning break, your Honor?
THE COURT : Yes. You may step down .
THE WITNESS : "'hank you .
(~itnes s excused)
(Recess.)
(J ur y present . )
23 MR . BOI ES: Your honor , for our next witness
24 the defendants wi ll call Howard Em b re e to the st and , and
2S wIth t he c ou r t's permission, Mr . Embree's direct
SOUTHERN DISTRICT RE PORTER S. us COU RTHOC SE
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bs2 Friedman - cross 8746
1 ~xamination will be conducted by Mr . Randy Mast r o .
2 H. DAt:IEL EMBREE,
3 called as a witness by the defendants, having bee n
4 duly sworn , testified as follows:
5 DIRECT EXAMI~ATIOI;
6 BY I'\R MASTRO :
7 Q. Mr .Embree, where do you currently reside ?
8 ~. Starkville, Mississippi .
9 Q. hre you marri ed?
10 A. ye s •
11 c. Do yo u have any c~ild r en?
A. Two.
~ . ~ h at IS you r current occu?ation?
A. I am an English professor at Mississippi Sl a te
Un i ve rsity.
16 Q. Can you briefly describe y ou r ~ducational
• 17 bac kg round.
18 A. I graduated from the United States Milit~ry
19 Academy ~t ~e st Point in 1 963 . Following a honorab le
2C disc ha rge from the Army in 1968, I began graduate work 1n
21 Engli3h, first Californi a State University at Hey~oo~ ,
22 and the following year at the University of California Rt
23 Berkley, from which I eventual ly obtained a PhD in Englis il
24 literature.
25 Q. You mentioned t hat you served in the U.S. Army.
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1 How many YCDrs did you serve in the U.S. Army?
2 A. Including the time at West Point, nine years.
3 Q. Did you ever s e r ve ln Vietnam?
A. One year.
5 Q. From when to when?
6 A. From ~ay '66 to May '67.
Q. DiG you reCElve any decorations for your scrvicE
8 in Vietnam?
9 , h. I received t he usual campalgn ri bbons, t he
10 combat infantryman's badge, a Bronze Star for meritorious
11 service, and a minor decoration for what the Army w~s
12 pleased to call valor, but which I didn't believe in, so I
13 ne ver wore.
Q. Khat was your rank when you were honorably
discharged from the U.s . Army?
A. I was a captain.
Q. I would like to focus for a moment on your time
at I·'est Point. ~hat years were you at Kest Point?
A. I entered in 1959 and I graduated in 1963.
Q. During your time at West Point did you receive
i:lny instruction relating to th e Vietnam ',Jar?
A. Yes.
Q. Khat type of instruction was that?
A. I,e received instruction from three different
departments: Th e Department of Tactics over the whole four
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1 years ; the Depa rtment of- Social Sciences, and the
2 Department of Military Art and Engineering, which taught us
3 military history .
4 All of that instructio n included both theory and
5 specific example s of particul~r unconventional wars, such
b as Malaya, the Philippines, Indochina.
7 Q. ~ho was the Superintendent at Kast Point wnan
& you graduated f rom the Academy?
9 A. General ~estmorelan~, then Major Genera l
10 v,e s tmore 1 and, ;;as the Super in tenden t f rom my second yea r
11 until I graduated.
12 Q. Did you r eceIve any honors or awards when you
13 graduated from ~est Point?
A. I received the social science department's aW 3 r a
for the outstanding third year monograph, which was for a
16 re-evaluation of the Nuremburg Trials.
17 I received the General John H. Forney award for
18 excellence in first class tactics, and that was for a staff
19 study of guerrilla tactics -- actually, count e rguerrilla
20 tactics, and the Colonial Daughters of the 17th Century
21 award for excellence in English for standing first in my
22 class in English.
23 Q.
24 do nexc ?
25 A.
After you graduated from ~est Point what did yo u
First I went to Fort Benning for about SIX
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months of additional tr~ining, Infantry Officers Ba sic
Course, tnen Ranger Training, then Airborne Training.
Q. What was your next assignment after Fort Benning?
A. From January 1964 I was sent to the First
Battalion, 54th Infantry in Hamburg Germany . I ser v ed
successfully as a rifle platoon leader, weapons platoon
leader, company executive officer for a period of OV0r a
year, and ended my tour at the end of 1965 as a brigadt
staff officer, the assistant operations officer.
Q. While you were stationed in Ger many, did you
recei ve any special specialized training in mines o r
demolitions?
A. In the spring of 1964 I was sent to t hL Corps of
Engineers' mine and demolition school in Germany for a
five-week advancEd course i n the handling of mines and
Ex plosi v e devices.
As part of that training we studied th e use of
mines and booby traps by insurgent forces in unconventional
wa rfare situations, including very simple homemade or
improvised dEvices or t he booby-trapping cf grenades, whic h
were commo n 1n Vittnam.
Q. You may have mentioned this al:eady.
you leave Germany?
A. I left in December 1965.
u. What was your next assignment?
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1 A. I was a lr eady under orders f or Vietnam . I was
2 "0 be an ad vI ser to the South Vietnamese Ar my. So in
3 January I wa s sent to Fo r t Bragg, No rth Carolin a to take a
4 c ourse of advise r training in prep~ration for that
5 assi gnment .
6 I might ad d that I had already received some
7 trdining In special w~r far e because while I was in Gcr~~ny
8 I had taken three courses f r om the Special Warfare School,
9 on e in Special Forc~s operations, one in c oun"erinsu r gency
10 ane one in psychological operations.
11 Q. ~nile you were at Fort Bragg did you receI v e 3ny
12 tr~ining on enemy ore e r of battle ?
13 A. Yes. ~e were quite thor oughly brief~e on t~e
14 s nemy force struct u r e and u s ed -- taught to use the terms
of t he ene~y o reer of battle.
C . ~hat ter ms of enemy order of battl e C3n you
reca l l f r om that training at Fo rt Brags?
A. ~ell, I remember the ma jo r d efinition between
r egular units and irregu lar units; regula rs con s isting of
KVA, No rt h Vietnamese Army units ane Vc main fo rc e or local
force units , and t he irregular forc e s consisti ng of
gue rr ill as, self defense militia a nd secret s elf-defense
23 militia.
24 Q.
25 A.
Wha t was your next assignment af ter Fort Bragg?
I was then s ent to the Defe ns e Language
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1 Institute at Monterey, California for an intensive twelve
2 week course in Vietname se.
3 As a resul t of that co u rs e , I wa s able ,
4 throughout my tour in Vietnam , to conduct basic
5 conversations with Vietnamese s oldiers and civilians. I
6 was no t fluent, but I was conversant.
7 Q. Upon completing that language training what was
8 your next assig nment ?
9 A. I went directly to Vietnam . Tnat was May 1966.
10 Q. Di d you receive any orientation upon your
II a rri val in Vietnam?
A. Yes, I di d. We wer e held in Saigon for a period
13 of fou r or five days ana glven our last briefings on
14 conditions in the country, what to expect, ~ hings to loo k
15 out for, in particular.
16 We were particularly cautioned about reg arding
17 certain categories of people e ven in urban areas tho" we
would not normally cons ider traditional enemy types: bar
girls, cabdrivers, people ri ding about on motorcycles as
potential enemy attac ke rs.
Q. Where were you a ss igned in Vietnam?
A. I was s ent originally as the assistant adviser
I was a first lieutenant at the time -- to the 4th
Battalion, Se c ond Regiment of t he First ARV N, that is Army
of the Republic of Vietnam , Division, and we were
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headquartered in Dong Ha, which is a town in the North of
Quang Tri Province. Quang Tri Province is the northernmost
province of South Vietnam . It is bounded on the north by
the demilitarized zone, on the west by Laos, and on the
east by the Sout h China Sea.
Q. How long did you have that assignment?
A. I had that assignment for si x months.
Q. ~hat was your next assignment in Vietnam?
A. It was ordinary for advisers to serve t he next
six months in a staff position. I chose to remain ln the
field, so I took another South Vietnamese battalion, having
been promoted in the rr.eantimc to captain, I became a sen lor
adviser to the First Battalion , First Regi~ent of the s ame
division, and we were then headqua r tered in Quang Tri, the
capital of the province -- :he province capital.
Q. In your fleld work in Vietna~ what types of
activities di~ your units engage in?
A. Well , our principal mission was to protect the
urban areas of Dong Hi and Quang Tri from outside
incursions and to secure the countryside by making
continual sweeps through the surrounding village s.
So we were most of t he time in the field moving
every day passing through villages, staying ove rnight in
the villagE, going in another direction, often back the way
we had comE, the next night.
SOL'THERN DISTRICT REPOR TE RS. U. S. COURTH OL'SE
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Friedman - cross 2753
The Idea being to be constantly mo v ing and
trying to maintain sur veillance on the local population and
to intErcept any units that might be movIng in fr om outside.
Q. Did you see any co~ba t while yo u we re in Vietn am?
A. I sa~ combat more or less contin uously .
Q. hhen you were in Vietnam ~id you personally c om ~
intO contact wit ll the enemy ?
A. Daily.
0. Can you describe what enemy you came into
contact with?
A. On a day-to-day basis, it would be local units,
self -d efense militi a, secret self-defense militia,
operating In and around villages .
Occa sionally, pe r haps once a moneh , we wou l d
engage a larger unit, a regular unit, coming In from
cllcside . In particular , we twice engaged the elements o f
ehe 32C B Division, a ~orth Vietnamese division. I arr. to l d
the best ~orth Vietnamese di v ision.
Q. You menti oned the terms self-d efense militia and
SEcr et se lf - defense militia. here those ter ms you were
aware of when you were in Vi Etnam?
A . Yes.
Q. How was it that you were aware of those terms?
A. ~ell, in a couple of ways. They were part of
our training at Fort Bragg when we were thoroughly j r i Ef e~
SOUTHERN D!STRI CT REPORTER S U.S. COU RTH OCSE FOLEY SQU ARE . NEW YORK . :-: Y. - 791 -1020
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on the order of battle, and t h e y were the terms used b y the
intelligence -- by our c hain of c ommand f~om which we
received in t ellig ence anc to whom we pa ssec the
intdligence.
Q. ~ere t hes e terms that you u sed in Vietnam?
r<. Yes.
Q. 3a sed on you r experiences 1n Vi et nam did you
have an unde rst a ndin g of the types of activiti~s that thes e
s e lf cefense a nd secr et s el f- cefen s e forc es engaged in?
A. Yes .
Q. hhat was t hat u nder s tanding?
DORS Et: : Obje c tion , you r honor.
THE COU <lT : I don ' t understand the q uest ion. I
don ' t kno'n' , .... hat you mEan DY " ~as€6 on your E X?erlenCe di d
you have an unde rsta nding? "
A: e you asking him what he observ~~? Are you
asking him wha t he was taught? Are you asking him w!lat
instructons h e recei ved?
~;R . MASTRO : I will rep h ras e it.
c. hhat types of activities did you observe in your
wor k 1n the field t he secret s elf - defense and self - defense fo c
engag1ng in?
terms?
MR. DORSEN: Ob jection , you r Honor.
THE COURT: As to foundation of the use of the
SO UTHERN DISTRICT REPORTER S. U.S. COURTHOL1SE
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Friedman - cross 8755
11h . DORSEt-< : Ye s . And also as t o w~ethcr t he
experiencL of this witness is at all typical of t he
experience of AmEric~n units in Vietnam.
Tile: COuRT : Mr. Mastro, would you bring out wha t
definitions he was using, where he got them from, anc
especially how lI e determined whether he was describIng a n
activity of one category or another c ategory of the en~~y .
MR. ~ASTRO : I certain ly will, your Honor.
Q. ~hile you were in Vi e tnam did you from ti me t o
time come to the conclusi on that certain people were se l f
cefense and SecrEt s el f - defense militia?
A. Yes. hot 1'certain people . 11 Because -- if you
mean ~n indi v idua l?
Q. Did you c om e to th e conclusion that certain
individuals \ICre part of s el f-defense militia and secrEt
self - cefense ~i litia?
A. 1 came to the c onclusion that c ertain grou?s of
people were, but, of course , if we id e ntified any
individual as being a member of t he secret s elf - c e fense
militia we arrest ~d him .
Yes . I, ha t was your basis for beliEving tnat
these people were part of the self-defe ns e militia o r th e
secret self-defense militia?
A. The kinds of activiti e s th ey eng aged In --
MR . DORSE1\ : Objectio n , your honor.
SOL'THER~ DISTRICT REPOR TERS U.S . COt; RTH OCSE
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TilE COUrtT: What was the definition you were
using? How did you determine for your own purposes whether
some~ody ~el onged cO secret self-defen se, self defense or
guerrilla or ot ner categories of the enc~y?
THE V;IT~ESS: Partly their mission ane purtly
t:JE:ir l ocation.
We considered to be s ~lf -eefense militia , or
s~· cret sel f -de fense militia , t;lOse elt:ments who ..,Ere
closely tied to their villages and did not operate at a
distance from them, and whose mission ..,as the cefense of
that village .
So that -- and t ha t I would take to include
mInIng, booby - trapping , snipi ng in the proximity of t h t:
villase .
Q. Di6 you dra.., a distincti on between
se lf - defense forces and guerillas when you were in Vietnam?
A . ~.e did , and t hat 's mostly a matter of t.heir
mobility and whether they were full time at t he ir job.
They had sim ilar missions and they ~oth looked
like civilians, but the guerrillas would opErate -- c OLle
operate at some distanCe from the village and wer 0
organized into squads and platoons, and were full time, or
tended to be full time irregulars; wherea s, the people
necessa ril y who were secret self-defense militia, the
Element who were we were most in cont a ct with, had to loo k
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lik~ civilians; therefore , tend~d to be part - time and huc
cO st ay at home .
Q. The la s t group you were describing, what
category woul~ you say they were?
A. Secret s elf-de:ense militia. Sy definition,
they are people who scay in and around the village .
Q. Did you d r aw a di s tinction between self - d efense
~ilitia and s ecret s elf - defense militia when you we re In
Vietnam?
A. Yes . That ' s normally 2 definition of -- 2
ci3ti nctio n of lOCution . T ~l e s~crct self -~efense ~ lli t i ~
is secret because it ' s in a village nominally under our
c o ntrol , t h ~t is in a pacified a rE~ .
The s~lf -Gefens€ mil i tia doesn't have to De
s~cret if it ' s in an area largely under VC contro l .
Q. ~nile you were in Vietn am did your u~its o?erat c
In both pacified and nonpacified areas?
A. Yes , I-Ie did.
Q. Mr . Embree , you mentioned mines and booby traps.
How s ophisticated were the mines and booby traps that yo u
came upon during your time in Vietnam?
11 . Kot very sophisticated . Grenades frequently ,
both ours and Chinese grenades.
Q. Can you gi ve me some examples of t he t ype s of
mines or boocy traps you came across during your time In
SOl'THERN DISTR ICT REPORTER S. U.S COC RTHOl'SE
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Vietnwm?
A. ?he kind I have referred to, the grenade turned
into a mine ~y the simple addition of a trip wi r e .
c. How dlfficult was it to c onst =uct a trlp Wlre
grenaU e?
. '1 • Extr emely simp le . AnyonE in this room could do
it. I could tcacn anyone in t ilis r oo~ to do i: in the nc x ~
ten minutes.
Q. ~hat would you neec to do it ?
A. Piece of Wlre and a grenade.
Q. I happer. to have just those things here. Could
you demonstrate for us how to construct a trip ~ire grenade.
A . This i s a standard ~ . S . Army gren3cic of an old
ty?C , but the type t ha t my ARV~ troops still carried, ~~
~eing largely a r med with older weapons and munitions .
Tne explosivE IS 1n inside anci these -- ~h e
,. pineapple- looking effect l S to insure that wnen the
explosive goes off , it will frag~ent along the indentati ons,
which are , of course, the thinest metal, therefore th e
lines where the metal will fail.
There 's a fuse at the top and a primer, which is
like the primer on a r I fle cartr idge , 3nci it will ignite
when struc~ by a hammer, in the same way that a rifle
cartridge will, with ehe exception that the r e 's a slig h t
delay so that you have timE to throw the grenade awa y .
SOUTHER!' DISTRICT REPORTER S. U.S. COL'RTHCCSE
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Friedman - c r oss 87 5 9
The spring has been r emoved from this grenade,
unfo r tunately, but the hammer --
o. ~ot so unfortunate , Mr . Embree.
A. The explosive has been removed, fortunacely, but
there ' s a little hammer in here which is cocked back like
my finger, and it ' s under a pretty good little spring load,
and when this handle , which is called a spoon, IS released
either that way or after you throw it, thEn there will be
then that hammer ~ill come over, strike the primer ~nd a
few sEconds lat e r the g r enade will go off.
~:OW, to convert this to a m.ine, not~ins mo r e
sophisticateo is r equi r ed -- of course you don't ca ke thL
?in Gut and put it back ordinarily, but this pIn is a
cctler pin, which is flareo out on this SIde and will
normally stay flared until you jerk it through, but if you
are going to use this as a mine , you would straight en it
out , as this one has now been s traightened out , by t he act
of my pulling it through here, and pull it through mosc of
the way so that it is -- so that the pin is holding the
spoon, ~ut very lightly.
Then t he grenade itself must be secured , wh ich
can be done most easily by burying it in the sand, or
holding it with a couple of s takes, if it's in the grass,
for example , and taking a piece of wire -- what we've got
here i s not at all the proper kind of wire because its
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTER S. U.S. COURTHOUSE
FOLEY SQU .... RE. NEW YORK . KY. - 791·1020
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Friedman - cross 8760
quite visibl e .
Thi s loo ks to be picture wire, which the VC did
not have, but t~ey did have fishing line or lots of very
thin metallic wire, which wa s very diffi cult to see, and
th e n the trip wire would be str etched across a path an d
secured just tight enough that the -- to holo the wire up
but not tig l. t enoug h to pull t ~ e p in , and, per haps, four to
six inches, or maybe only a couple of inches off the ground .
Then t he first s oloio: passing alo ng tnrough
he re -- this would typically be a break i n t he bamboo, lots
of bamboo hedges on t he edg e s of vill ages, or simply across
a jungle path, or along a paddydike, anywhere where its
predictabl e that t ~e government so ldi ers are going t o pass.
The first soldier by would, of course, pu ll t he
p in OUt , t~e spoon would fly off. He would be over t her e
~y the tim e t he grenade went off. The grenad~ wo~ld catch
him fro m be h ind and the next guy, even if he we re spa cEo
out properly, would be about whe re I am, and it would catch
me in the front .
So , typically, a grenade might easil y get two
men and wo und them fairly se ve rely or kill the~.
Q. Thank you. Mr. E~bree, when you were ser vIng in
Vietna~ d id you have any responsibilities for keeping trac k
of the casualties In your unit?
A. Yes.
SOL'THER~ DISTRICT REPOR TER S. U.S. COLT RTHOl.:SE
:=OLEY SOl':\!l..E 'iE \\' YORK. :-: y - ~91-1 0 ~O
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Friedman - cr oss 8761 {
Q. ~as that part of your regular duties?
A. Yes. It was a part o f my duty in and of itself,
since it lS a -- it w2s a command r espon sibi lity , uno 1 was
charged wich keeping track of e ve r y t hing t ha t t he comm a nder
to whom I was an advlser did , but it was also an lffipOrta~t
responsibility beca use I was the man who had to Medivac
these peopls.
The dustoffs were t ypic al ly an ~"erican
o pe r~ti on 1n our area, which me ant thot an 2r~y -- a u.s.
Ar my helicopter had t o come 1n to remove these people from
t h e paady fi elds . ~e we re not operating ve r y of~en near
roads s o t he re was no question of an amb ul ance.
I would be the one wh o h a d to oring the
heli c opter in by my radio and my smoke, therefor ~ , in a
very r eal way no cas ualty could b e Mediva c ked without
pass1ng t h r ough my hands. So it was t hG most routine part
of my day to Med i vac two ARV~ soldiers who h ad fallEn prey
to t hi s thi ng .
MR . DORSE N: Your Honor, move to s trike t he last
portion of t he a n swer as not respons1 ve .
THE COCRT: Ove rruled.
Q. Mr. Emoree, do you recall how many of your
unit's cas ual t i es were caused by mines and b oo b y traps?
MR. DORSEN: Objection, your hono r.
Th E COU RT : Ground s?
SOUTHER~ DISTRICT REPORTER S. C.S. COl" RTi-lOUSE
FOLEY SQUARE . N EW YORK. ~.Y - 791-:O~u
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Friedman - cross 8762
MR . DOi<S Et\: Two grounds . One , ther~ is no
indication t hat t he ex perie nce of t h e unit Mr. Embree was
wit:', which wa s a South Vietnamese unit, \,a5 t .ypicul of t he
Ame rican expe rienc e , and he j ust described the kind of
mi ssio n in ver y s pecific terms of going back and f orth anJ
pa troll ins, which is cl i [ferent , I thi nk , from most A;ner ican
units . At leas t t he re is no s how ing itts the same, your
honor .
THE COURT: I wil l permit him to testify and the
Jury may deCIde what sig n ificance you accord to his
t E3timon Ya
You may proceed.
A. Can I have t:,e question again?
Th e q ue stion is do you recall what percentag e or
how many of your unit 's cas ual ties were cau sed oy mines and
::lOoby traps ?
A. Yes, I do . My be s t estimate is 50 percent . I
remember making t he estimate at the tim e . In f act , it was
not an estimate. I remember the fact at the tim e that we
ro utinely suffered two booby- t rap c a sualti e s a day
t ypically.
Of course, s ome days we would have none and s ome
days we would have six, but two a day on any day t hat we
moved, because i t's p rimarily a kind of cas ualty that you
get while you're moving, and we might mOVE in the cours e of
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTER S. u.s. COURTH OL'SE
FOLE Y SQUARE. N EW YORK. N. Y. - 791 · 1010
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Fr iedman - cross 87 63
~ cypical mont h , we migh~ be on the move twenty days, s o I
would s ay 1n had a typical month we would take 4 0
casualties or about nine percent of our unit, which is an
extrao r dinary casualty r ate for -- to suffer in that way .
Q. Mr. Emb r ee , I '.Jould like to show you exhib1t 227,
which is the r eport of an o r der of battle conference in
~onolulu in ~ e bruary 1967.
I refer you specifically to page a 2 and th e
definitions that appe ar on that page for guerri l las,
self - defense forces and s ecret self - defense forces . Please
taK e a moment to read that.
(Pause )
Yes. lOve read it.
C. Are those definitions t he defi n it i ons of t hO SE
terms which you used while you were in Vietna~?
A. Ye s .
Q. Mr. Embree, I would like to show you a quotation
from testimo ny given by General ~estmoreland at t h is trial,
that appears on pages 3467 and 3468.
A. Tnat is not in the document?
Q. Of the trial transcript .
A. That is not this document?
Q. No, it is not . ~ould you read those pages.
will then ask you questions .
(Pause )
SOUTHER!': DISTRICT REPORTER S. U.S . COU RTH OCSE
FOLE Y SQUARE. NEW YORK . ~ Y. _ 791 - IO~O
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Friedrran - cr oss 8764
Q. I a~ particularly going to focus on t~e
testimony at the bottom of page 3467 and the top of page
34 58 .
Mr.Embree , do you agree with the statement
"I.ith resp,=ct to t he self defense and s e cret self-defense,
we are not fighting t hose people . They are basically
civilians . They don ' t belong in any representatio n ,
numerical representation of the military capability cf the
enemy"?
A. Those people were fighting us and we were trying
t o fight them .. Tnat ' s ~hat we unuerstood our jo~ tG be,
anc 11m very surprIsed to discover that General
~estmoreland did not know that that 's what ~e were doing.
i":R . DOrtSEt : : Your Honor, move to stri~ e the last
answer .
THE COUi<T: The jury will disregard the last
words 1n th~ answer . •
MH . ~!ASTRO: ~o further questions , your Honor .
THE COURT: Let me just ask onc question before
you proceed to cross - examine.
Did your units, ouring t h is perlod, make reports
cack to headquarters or to a superior command concernlng
encounters that you had made with the enemy?
THE WITNESS: Yes, daily.
THE COURT : In making those reports, dio your
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Friedman - cross 8765
;Jni t usc t~l( ... terms secret s el f - defense?, self ce:ense ana
guerrilla?
THE WITNESS : Yes .
THE COURT: And were you familiar with t hose
re;> o rts that you made t o your s u;>eriors? I.as it a ;>art of
your function to m3Ke t ho se r0ports?
THE IHTt:ES S : Yes, those reports would ha ve gon0
from me .
THE COURT: You were the person who would ~ave
mude the re?orts?
In the sec ond six months, when I
was the s enior adviser, t hey would have gone from mE. In
t he first six mon ths they might have gone through me as
often as ilot .
THE CO URT : In making those re;>orts, were you
using the t e rms s elf dEfense , s Ecret self -def~nsE and
gUErr illa?
THE WITNESS: ~e used those terms. ~e did not
usc them e xclusively , but we used those terms.
THE COURT: ~hen yo~ say, " Not exclusi vely"
would you ex;>l a in what you mean .
THE WITNESS: A more important distinction for
us was local - out sider. So that often we would sa y , "Th e
locals" or the "local mili t ia" by which we meant the s ec ret
self-defen sE militia . Sut I think you can understand tha:
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p~ople in the fiEld and .tal king on thE radio arE not going
t o Si:!y e very time "the Peo ples s ecret sElf-def en se militia. "
~e used an ordinary and practical military
s hortha nd whi c h corresponded to that term. and local
militia W3S oftEn that term. though we cErtainly us~d
s ~crct self - defense militia as wEll.
THE COURT: You say you sometimes used t ne ter~
"lo(: a l militia "?
HiE hITt,ESS: Yes .
Tlt2 COUI<T : As ffi~~ning wh at?
Th21,ITI\ESS : As meaning self-defense militia .
ThE COURT : Self defense as 09Po seu to s~cr Et
self - defense?
THE ~ ; ITr~r::SS: As including -- WE wocld use that
prim ~ ril y for t he secret s &lf - defEnse militia. bEca c s e
thOSE ?€op!e were the ones we WErE most frE~uently
concernecj wit h . I.e operated mostly in pa cified arE a s s o
t hat it was the secr ets that we were engaging .
ThE COUET: Did the term local militiw inc lcda
guc·rrillas?
THE ~ITNESS : ~o .
ThE COURT: vihen you usee the terms "s e l f
defens e . s ecret s elf - defens E . guerrilla " in yo ur re ports t o
higher hewdquarter s concerning enemy activity. did you use
th~m with the S 3 ~ ~ divisIons that you have t Es tifi aci t o In
SO LJ THER:"-J DISTRICT REPO RTER S. U.S. COL'RTHOL'SE
FOLE Y SQ UARE . NEW YORK . N.Y. - i91- 1020
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frieaman - cross 8,67
your testimon y no~?
THE v;ITNESS: Yes.
TH ~ COURT: Mr . Dors~n.
CROSS EXA MINATI ON
BY ~iR. DORSH::
c. Mr. Embre E , i sn ' t it t he case that yo~ we re
~~inly concern~d ~it h distinguis hing ~e t ween rs s~16r forces,
on the one hand, and irregular forc e s on the other?
A. I' m not sur e wh~t you mean by "m Qin ly concern~ a
with ." That was a very important distinction for us. ~e
hwo important missions on both s ide s of that line.
Q. Didn't you frequently refer to the nonregular
enemy as irr 2gul ars and not ffiake di st incti o ns be~ween the
various compo ne n ts of irregulars?
A. We mig ht som e times do that, but we cer tainly
sometime s also made th e distinction .
T~e cerm guerrilla in particulor wos a term that
WE did use i n a way wh ic h we've used it he re tod~YI a~d
which hcu preci se mecning for us.
Q. Didn ' t the term guerrilla, was n 't it s ometimes
usee ay you to encom?ass all irregul ar s ?
A. Back at \;e st Point, wh ic h ... as in an earlier day,
and I think before these defi nit io ns were so r efined , the
doctrine ... as to use the t e r m guerrilla in the way that you
have sa id .
SOUTHER'I DISTRICT REPORTER S. U.S. COURTHOUS E
FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK. N . Y. - 791 . 1020
o 2 Emoree - cross 8768
1 As a matter of fact , the usage at ~est Point of
2 guerrilla in an earli0r day, before 1963, even inclu6ed
3 regular forces in the field , but we did -- in Vietnam we
4 made a very clea r distinction on both sides of the
5 guerrilla line, s o t hat I think we uSEd t h~ t ter m with some
6 ?reCl s l0n .
Q. Co you kno~ whether the estimatLs of irregular
8 forccs f or Quang Tr i Province , where you we re,
9 cl istinguis ~ ed between t Ile various components of irregulars
10 ~hil e you were ther e?
11
12
13
. ". It was --
MR . ~jAST iW : I object to the form, your Honor.
THE: COCR": Sustu ined as to fOLl1 as to t :le
1, preci sion of whi ch you are asking about .
1 j Mr. Embree, 00 you know whether the reports that
16 came from Qu ang Tri Pro vin ce to LACV J-2 concer ning
17 estirnat~s of irrEgulars 1n Quang TIi PrG v ince disti~guished
18 among the diffe re nt categories of enemy?
19 A.
20 Q.
21 A.
22 J-2.
23 Q.
24 function?
25 A.
hell, I was not in that c hain of commana .
hou16 you explain that?
I was not between Quang Tri Province an~ LACV
The r e was s omebody else who did that, that
Certainly. Somebo6y reported from Quang Tri
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTER S. U.S. COU RTHO US E
FOLEY SQU ARE. NEW YORK. ~ . Y. - 791· 1020
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1 ProvInce to MACV J - 2 , but it was not I.
2 Q. SO you were not the person who was reporting to
3 MACV J -2 on a regulur basis?
4 A. From Qu ang Tri Province headqua rters?
5 Yes.
5 lL t:o .
Q. Did you report to MACV J - 2 from any?lac~?
8 A. Yes.
9 \,;' . And was it your r espons ib ility to provide
10 esti~~tcs of the number of self-defe ns e militia or nu~ber
11 of gue rr illas in Quang Tri Province?
12 Yes. Fr o~ Gay - to - day we constantly ~ad t
13 e sti~ates ab out the size and nature of the f orces with
14 which we came in contact, and and those repor ts were daily
15 ;?ilSSea on.
16 I assume that t hey eventually mude their w~y to
17 MACV J - 2 .
18 Q. &~ I correct that you hao a small geogruphical
19 area ti,at you '" e:c conc erned wi t h?
20 A. On u given day o r on a gIven operutlOn we woul d
have SCill€ geographical responsibility. V.e c allee it an
22 urea of oper at ion . But yo~ may be talkillg about a pa r allel
23 chuin of command up throug h dist r ict and province who were
24 specifically and only geographi c.
25 Q. And t hey were the one s who formulated t ilE
SOUTHER;..1 DISTRICT REPORTER S. u.s. COU RTH OCSt:
b 2 EmbreE - cr0 3S 8770
1 esti:nates for , say, vu arrg Tri Province in num;:,er of
2 irregulars?
3 A. I assume that my c hai n of c ommand ma y have
4 ~ontributeo, certainly must ha ve c on tribute0 to that, too,
5 but I was not present a t the province level or at the
6 divi s ion level wher e t~os e aggregations woul ti na VE be en
7 made.
6 Q. It's assumption on your pa rt t hen?
9 A. ~hat is an assumption on my part?
10 Q. hilat you just t es t ified to as to who above you
11 i n the chain of command made estimates?
12 A . Certainly somebody above me in my c ~a in of
~ 3 commznd anci 1n pc.rall el c~ l ains of COmiTlana rD3.oe such
estimates. In part, t hey mad e them on the info r mation
15 ;,;hic h I pus s ed up.
16 Q. ho;,; , was it your under st anding in 1965 - 67 that •
17 there was ce rtai n people in the irregular category that
18 we re s nipe rs, for exa mp le, and others who were principally
19 involved in laying mines and boo~y tra p s and others who did
20 propaganda wor ;';?
2l A. I think i t would naVe bee n a reasona81e
22 assumption that there ;,;as suc h a di v isi on of labor.
23 ~~ I correct th at you did not know o r have a
24 Vl ew in 1 966 -1 967 as to what proportion of ti me
25 self-defense mili ti a were involved in t hEi r d u ties?
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FOLEY SQU ..... RE . ~EW YORK. N .Y. - ;91- 1020
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1 A. 1 thin~ that must have va ried exceedingly widely.
2 Q. You did not have an estimate as to what
3 pro?ortion of time ?eople spent on self-defense militia and -
4 A. ~ell, it was not my business to theorize
5 abstractly about t~e category as 6 whole. Cer talnly , it
6 was quite evident that in some villages more time WaS being
G0voted to It t han in 50m~ others .
b Q. But you didn't know whether it was onE pe rson,
Y f or ex am?l e , working th e whole ni ght or two pe op l e wo rking
10 half t he nig~t, aid you , in terms of them acc omplishing a
11 ?~rticular mls sion?
12 " . I naa no concrete, spe cific information of that
13 H3d I ha d i~t we would h ~ V2 , of course, arrest~a
14 those people. Th at sort of information would almost
15 require us to know who.
16 Q. And you didn't hav e t hat information, gene r ally?
17 A. \.cll , whenevEr we got it we acted on it. It \<ias
18 one of our missions to collect precisely that kir.d of
19 information and ,,,hen we ?assed through v illages , we talk eu
20 to people at great length to find out that kind o f
21 info Lllut ion .
22 Q. Am I correct, Mr. Embree, that you could not
23 tell when you were s hot at ~y a sniper whether the sn iper
24 was a guerrilla, for examp le, or a member of the
25 sel f -de fense militia or possibly a civilian?
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Embree - cross 8772
A. At the moment-of sniping, no. But it was a
reasonable inference from several such instances, or from
the continuatio~ of such instances from the predictanility
of such instances in particular locations, that we were
dealing with people who were tied to a village.
These villages -- some of these villages had a
c e rtainly irreducible level of violence, e i t her snIpIng or
mines, that would not vary with the presence of outsi d e or
mob-i 1 e forces.
So that it became onvious that t he -- that t hat
irr educible level of violence e~anated from a group of
people in that village, and therefore, by definition,
Secret sElf -oefe~se ~iliti o .
Q. And you were concerned, were you not, with t he
le~ el of violence, principally, as opposed to the number of
people creating that level of violence; is that an accurate
statement?
A. ~ell, we were concerned with bot h things. T h€
primary the immsciatE consideration is, of course -- hew
many weapons? Are they automatic weapons? ~here are the y ?
-- if we are talking about sniping.
If it's mines: I.here are the mines? ~hat
danger do they pose to us?
But, secondarily, we were interestec 1n USI ng
that evidence to ~ake an intelligent inference about t he
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Em!J r ee - cross 5773
Dum:Oer s, t !lat is the rel'ative strengt h :OJ' number, in the
village, and we have made such assessments more o r less
continuously.
Q. ~ow, it IS your view, is it not, that to count
somebody on the Vietcong side, the s am~ type of person
should be counted on the ARV~ side? I n other wares, thut
there should be a symmetry betwEen who is countsc on toe
Al lied sIde and who is counted on the enemy side; IS that
correct?
A. Yes. I think that's a reasonable approach. I
was noc ~ngag2d 1n thct jusiness, you understanc, bet t h ~t
seems to me to be re a sonable.
Q. hllen yo~ say, lt T~at business,'1 which b usi ne·ss?
A. It seems to me reasonable th at sinc e we counted
the people who laid mine fields around whut were in effEct
our villag~s, our outposts, our fire bases, our soldiers,
that we count t he people who laid mine s and booby traps
around ve villages as ve, as enemy soldiers.
Q. v,hen you talk about "our scldiers" you're
talking, are you not , about soldiers, people with training
~s soldiers; is tilat correct?
A. I'm talking about anyone who has sGffic ient
training to inflict violence on my people, and that
included the people in these villages; and the y killed my
people daily.
SOL" THER!"-: OISTR ICT REPO RTERS. C.S. COL'RTHOl'SE
FOLEY S U ARE . NE\.V YO RK. N.Y. - i 9 1· 10:: 0
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1 Q. tir. Emb ree, I ' m tal k ing a:,o ut on our sl de , the
2 peo p le who laid mines a nd :,ooby traps on our side had marc
3 than ten minutes training; is t ha t correct?
4 A. Yes, t hey aid .
5 Q. And you would not co unt somebod y who had only
6 ten minutes of train in9 as part of the Allied military
7 force, would we have?
5 A. ~ ell, there was no such pe rson in Vietnam on our
9 Sl C€: .
10 Q. Mr. Embree , a m I correct t hat you have come to
Il cEstify here as a r e su lt o f ha v ing spok~n cO Colen~ l Gains
12 r: a wk ins and Sam Adams?
13 l'.. Yes.
14 Q. And you di scussed t h ings with them before coming
15 he r e ; IS that r ight?
16 A. Yes.
17 ~1R . DORSEt<: I have no further questions, your
18 honor .
19 THE COURT : Anything else, Mr. Mastro ?
20 MR . ~AST~U : he have no f urther questions, your
21 Honor.
22 THE CO URT : You ar e excused.
23 (~itness excused)
24 MR . BOIES: Is t hi s a convenient tim e f e r t he
25 luncheon rec ess , you r Hono r?
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Embree - cross 8775
THE COU "T : Y"e s, i tis.
The jury is excused. he will resume at quarter
(Luncheon recess)
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTER S. U.S COL' RTHOl"SE
FOLEY SQUARE. NE\V YORK. :-.: Y - ~9 1 . IO :' O
