Monoleche Deposition Transcript

7/24/2019 Monoleche Deposition Transcript

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Exhibit 3

Case 0:08-md-01916-KAM Document 944-4 Entered on FLSD Docket 11/24/2015 Page 1 of 80


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561-835-0220WWW.USLEGALSUPPORT.COM

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA CASE NO.: 08-01916-MD-MARRA/JOHNSON

IN RE: CHIQUITA BRANDS INTERNATIONAL, INC.,

ALIEN TORT STATUTE ANDSHAREHOLDER DERIVATIVE LITIGATION____________________________________________/

This Document Relates To:

ATS ACTIONS_____________________________________________/

ATS ACTIONS08-80421-CIV-MARRA08-80465-CIV-MARRA08-80508-CIV-MARRA10-60573-CIV-MARRA08-80480-CIV-MARRA07-cv-60821-KAM

Colombia

Second Penal Court of the Circuit of Itag

Docket No. 11001-67-00-000-2015-21489-00

DEPOSITION OF JESUS IGNACIO RLDAN PEREZ (Via Interpreter)

Wednesday, August 12, 2015 10:14 a.m. - 1:20 p.m.

Mxima Seguridad Cra. 70, Itagui Antioquia, Colombia

Stenographically Reported By: ROBIN L. MERKER, RPR, FPR Registered Professional Reporter Florida Professional Reporter



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1 APPEARANCES2

On behalf of the Plaintiffs:3 LAW OFFICES OF JUDITH BROWN CHOMSKY

Post Office Box 29726

4 Eighteenth and Arch StreetsElkins Park, Pennsylvania 190275 215.782.8367

[email protected] BY: JUDITH BROWN CHOMSKY, ESQUIRE7 EARTHRIGHTS INTERNATIONAL

1612 K Street NW8 Suite 401

Washington, D.C. 20006-28269 202.466.5188

[email protected] [email protected]

BY: MARISSA ANN VAHLSING, ESQUIRE11 JUAN PABLO CALDERON-MEZA, ESQUIRE12 Carrera 57 #51-222

Edificio Calle Nueva13 Medelln Colombia

310-614-032114 [email protected]

BY: ALEX ALBERTO MORALES CRDOBA15

On behalf of the Defendants:16 COVINGTON & BURLING, LLP

One City Center17 850 Tenth Street, NW

Washington, DC 20001-495618 202.662.5273

[email protected] [email protected]

BY: SHANKAR DURAISWAMY, ESQUIRE20 JOS E. ARVELO, ESQUIRE21 PRAS CADAVID ABOGADOS

Calle 99 No. 7A - 77 Of. 20322 Bogot D.C., Colombia

PBX: +(571)74306223 [email protected]

BY: PAULA CADAVID LONDOO, ESQUIRE24

25



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1 Also Present: LUIS FELIPE BARRERA, Interpreter

2 NANCY K. HAND, Interpreter WILLIAM LEN ACOSTA, Plaintiffs' Assistant

3

4

5

INDEX OF PROCEEDINGS6

7 DEPOSITION OF JESUS IGNACIO RLDAN PEREZ PAGE

8 EXAMINATION BY THE COURT: 9DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. VAHLSING: 41

9 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MORALES: 54

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. DURAISWAMY: 5610

11

12

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15

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21

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1 THE COURT: Today is Wednesday, August 12,

2 2015, at 10:12 in the morning. The Second

3 District -- Judicial District opens this public

4 hearing on behalf of the Southern District of the

5 State of Florida of the United States. The matter

6 being Chiquita Brands International --

7 INTERPRETER HAND: The interpreter requests a

8 repetition of the case number, the remaining parts of

9 the name, and the case number.

10

THE COURT: For the record, may the parties,11 please state their appearances.

12 MR. MORALES: Good morning, Your Honor, and to

13 all those present.

14 My name is Alex Alberto Morales Crdoba. I am

15 here representing Dr. Paul David Wolf, who is an

16 attorney representing over 4,000 families who are

17 victims of the armed conflict.

18 And I identify myself here by my professional

19 license number 121671 issued by the Superior Judicial

20 Council and my citizen ID 71723789.

21 And for purposes of legal notifications, my

22 address is Carrera 51 -- 57, No. 51-222 Edificio

23 Calle Nueva in Medelln. My number -- telephone

24 number is 310-614-0321. My e-mail address, also for

25 purposes of official notification, is



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1 [email protected].

2 INTERPRETER BARRERA: My name is Luis Felipe

3 Barrera. I am an English-Spanish/Spanish-English

4 interpreter.

5 INTERPRETER HAND: Nancy Hand, certified

6 federal court interpreter, U.S. certified federal

7 court interpreter.

8 MR. ACOSTA: I am a translator for the

9 plaintiffs, U.S. citizen. That's all.

10

MR. CALDERON-MEZA: My name is Juan Pablo11 Calderon-Meza. My citizen ID number is 10272988. I

12 am also the bearer of professional license number

13 169463 of the Supreme Judicial Council. And I am

14 assisting the attorneys for the plaintiffs.

15 MS. VAHLSING: Hello, my name is Marissa

16 Vahlsing. I'm a United States citizen. I'm

17 identified with the professional card 1025043 for the

18 Bar of the District of Columbia. I am here today as

19 a representative for the plaintiffs.

20 MS. CHOMSKY: Good morning, Your Honor and

21 colleagues. My name is Judith Brown Chomsky. My

22 professional license is from the Supreme Court of the

23 Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. My number -- my bar

24 number is 21537.

25 MR. ARVELO: Good morning. I am Jos Arvelo.



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1 I am U.S. counsel for Chiquita Brands International.

2 MS. CADAVID: Good morning. My name is Paula

3 Cadavid and I'm a Colombian attorney. My ID number

4 is 39784735. My professional license number is

5 33424. I am here assisting the attorneys for

6 Chiquita Brands International.

7 MR. DURAISWAMY: Good morning. My name is

8 Shankar Duraiswamy. I'm an attorney from the United

9 States, here representing the defendants in this

10

litigation.11 Your Honor, may I request the Court's

12 permission to make some preliminary inquiries

13 regarding the procedures for today's proceeding?

14 THE COURT: Go ahead.

15 MR. DURAISWAMY: I'm now speaking on behalf of

16 the attorneys, both for the plaintiffs and the

17 defendants, in this matter.

18 Your Honor, last week the judge in the United

19 States, who is presiding over these lawsuits, issued

20 an amended letter rogatory requesting that the

21 parties have the opportunity to conduct seven hours

22 of oral examination per side, and requesting that the

23 Court schedule additional days of testimony, as

24 needed, to give the parties that time.

25 I do not know, Your Honor, if you have received



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1 the amended letter. We have a copy of it and can

2 provide it to you, if that would be helpful.

3 But we wanted to inquire of the Court whether

4 it would be willing to schedule additional days of

5 testimony in the future, on the next available date,

6 in order to accommodate the request of the U.S.

7 judge.

8 THE COURT: Yes, I did receive it. We're going

9 to follow the order. We are going to follow the

10

order of the commission that has been sent to us.11 First, the direct examination will be carried

12 out, which is stipulated here. And then the parties

13 will be given the floor to conduct their own

14 examination.

15 With regard to the time, today we have until --

16 what time, Diego? -- until 4:00 o'clock in the

17 afternoon.

18 In terms of the court calendar, we are already

19 into December. The Court has no issue with

20 scheduling additional dates, and we will have to look

21 at the calendar, and we can do that today. However,

22 it will not be immediate. We will have to keep in

23 mind the time frame that we're working on.

24 MR. DURAISWAMY: Thank you, Your Honor.

25 MR. MORALES: Your Honor, I would like to know,



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1 with greater clarity, how this proceeding and how the

2 time will be managed, and who will have what time

3 after you are finished.

4 THE COURT: Yes, we will go over that as we

5 move along.

6 Please stand.

7 Good morning.

8 THE WITNESS: Good morning, Your Honor.

9 THE COURT: You have been subpoenaed to give

10

testimony under oath in a court proceeding against a11 company, a judicial entity, known as Chiquita Brands

12 International. Details will be given later.

13 You -- that means that (indicating) -- that

14 means that you are required to answer truthfully all

15 of the questions put to you today, without hiding or

16 twisting any of the facts, because if you are to hide

17 or twist any of the facts, you would be committing

18 the crime of false testimony, which is a crime.

19 I also would like to make known to you

20 Article 385 of the Penal Procedural Code, which

21 states you cannot be forced to testify against

22 yourself, against your spouse, against any relative

23 of the fourth degree -- any blood relative in the

24 first -- fourth degree or second degree of affinity.

25 If you -- knowing all of this, do you swear to



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1 tell the truth?

2 THE WITNESS: I do so swear.

3 Thereupon,

4 JESUS IGNACIO RLDAN PEREZ,

5 having been first duly sworn or affirmed, was examined and

6 testified as follows:

7 EXAMINATION

8 THE COURT: Please tell us -- identify yourself

9 fully. Please tell us your full name, the number of

10

your identification document, where you were born,11 how many years you went to school, if you are married

12 or single.

13 THE WITNESS: Good morning, Your Honor. Good

14 morning, Your Honor, and to all those present.

15 My name is Jesus Ignacio Rldan Perez. My

16 citizen identification number is 8 thousand 011973.

17 I was born in Guadalupe, Antioquia. I am separated.

18 I have nine children.

19 I was a member of the auto -- of the

20 self-defense group of the brothers Castao, Fidel

21 Carlos, and Vincente. I entered in 1968, during the

22 second semester of 1968. I was demobilized in 2004,

23 and I was demobilized under the justice and peace

24 law.

25 (Interpreter Barrera continues.)

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1 The commission states the plaintiffs would like

2 to examine the witness, Mr. Rldan, in regard to the

3 payment arrangements between Chiquita Brands and the

4 AUC, specifically in the -- in the meeting that took

5 place in 1997, in which Chiquita Brands executives

6 arranged -- made payment arrangements with the AUC

7 members.

8 For reasons of methodology, would the

9 interpreters like for the interventions to be

10

shorter?11 INTERPRETER BARRERA: Yes, it would be helpful,

12 thank you.

13 THE COURT: And I excused because I noticed

14 that you were struggling.

15 Meetings between executives of Chiquita and

16 Banadex and AUC commanders.

17 Question: Did executives from Chiquita Banadex

18 met with commanders of the AUC?

19 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I inform you, and I

20 inform you, all the people present, that I don't have

21 any knowledge regarding any of the -- how this was

22 negotiated.

23 These negotiations were conducted between

24 cattle businessmen and Mr. Ral Hasbn, alias Pedro

25 Bonito. He was the person in charge, by Carlos and



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1 Vincente Castao, who was ordered by Carlos Castao

2 to conduct business with those businessmen and cattle

3 businessmen from the region.

4 Therefore, Your Honor, I repeat that I don't

5 have any knowledge about those negotiations, nor did

6 I participate in any of those negotiations. And I

7 would like to reiterate the fact that I don't know

8 how those payment arrangements were carried out.

9 THE COURT: Regarding your answer, the Court

10

is -- is compelled to -- to interrogate you regarding11 this matter and you've been -- you've been informed.

12 Question: If they did meet, what did they

13 discuss? And how do you know that they discussed

14 this?

15 THE WITNESS: I repeat, Your Honor, I don't

16 have any knowledge regarding this, because I did not

17 participate in these negotiations with these

18 businessmen -- with the businessmen.

19 THE COURT: Seeing what the -- what the witness

20 has answered, we're going to ask two questions as

21 one.

22 If they did meet, what did they discuss in

23 these meetings? And were you present in any of these

24 meetings?

25 THE WITNESS: No, Your Honor, I didn't attend



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1 any of those meetings.

2 THE COURT: Question: Please tell us

3 everything you know about payment arrangements

4 between Chiquita and the AUC, or any division of the

5 AUC. And how do you know about these payment

6 arrangements?

7 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, as I said before, the

8 person who has full knowledge of this situation was

9 Mr. Ral Hasbn, alias Pedro Bonito. He was the

10

person in charge, or ordered by Vincente Carlos11 Castao to conduct these negotiations, not only with

12 Chiquita, but with businessmen from the region.

13 MR. ARVELO: On the record, let me just

14 interject for a moment.

15 I ask the translator, please be precise with

16 translation. "Meeting," you translated "meeting"

17 several times as "negotiation. So, just for the

18 record, I wanted to raise this issue.

19 (Interpreter Hand continues.)

20 INTERPRETER BARRERA: Okay.

21 MR. MORALES: Your Honor, he has been clear

22 that they are negotiations. He has said that

23 clearly.

24 THE COURT: Okay.




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1 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, if I may continue.

2 Your Honor, I just wanted to clarify why -- why

3 did Ral Hasbn -- why it was Ral Hasbn appointed

4 by Carlos Vincente to conduct these meetings with --

5 with businessmen, with the banana businessmen.

6 Mr. Ral Hasbn used to be a banana businessmen

7 himself when he first entered the AUC. This is the

8 person who can tell you all about these meetings

9 and...

10

THE COURT: Were there -- was there any11 paramilitary unit that provided services for either

12 Chiquita or Banadex, and how do you know this?

13 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, the knowledge that

14 I -- that I have is because I was a member of the

15 organization.

16 I repeat: The person in charge of conducting

17 those meetings was Mr. Pedro Hasbn. He conducted

18 those business meetings with cattle businessmen,

19 banana businessmen.

20 Everyone, and all the companies in the region,

21 were involved in extortion payments.

22 MS. VAHLSING: I would like to object to the

23 translation please, and request that the term

24 "vacuna" be translated literally and with precision.




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1 MR. ARVELO: I will say for the record that he

2 translated the term "vacuna" accurately.

3 MR. MORALES: I would like to say that I

4 support the -- I support counsel's motion, and I also

5 would like to have the term clarified.

6 THE COURT: If any paramilitary unit offered to

7 provide services for Chiquita or Banadex, were those

8 services offered in exchange for payments? How do

9 you know this?

10

THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I don't have any11 knowledge regarding your question.

12 THE COURT: Question: Did Chiquita or Banadex

13 make any arrangement to hide those payments from the

14 controlled entities of the government? How do you

15 know this?

16 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I don't have any

17 knowledge regarding your question.

18 I would like to repeat that all this

19 information is in -- the person who has all this

20 information is Mr. Ral Hasbn, alias Pedro Bonito.

21 THE COURT: If there was any arrangement that

22 was made to hide the payments that were carried out,

23 what -- which type of arrangements were these? How

24 do you know this?




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2 THE COURT: Question: What did AUC do with the

3 money received from Chiquita and Banadex, and how do

4 you know this?

5 THE WITNESS: I don't have any knowledge

6 regarding your question, Your Honor.

7 THE COURT: Question: Was the money received

8 by the AUC, from Chiquita and Banadex, important for

9 the AUC? How do you know this?

10

THE WITNESS: I don't have any knowledge11 regarding your question, Your Honor.

12 THE COURT: We're not going to ask the

13 following question, because the answer that the

14 witness just -- has provided, the last answer that

15 the witness provided, is enough answer for the

16 following question.

17 Question: Did Chiquita and Banadex know what

18 the AUC did with the money that was paid to them?

19 How do you know this?



22 THE COURT: Did Chiquita or Banadex ask the AUC

23 to use the money for a specific purpose?





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1 THE COURT: Question: If Chiquita or Banadex

2 did ask the AUC to use the money that was paid with a

3 specific purpose, what was that purpose, and how do

4 you know this?



7 THE COURT: I'm going to interpret the

8 question. I'm not going to read it as it is in the

9 document.

10

Do you know if there was an answer on behalf of11 Banadex or Chiquita, regarding the use of that money?



14 THE COURT: Did Chiquita or Banadex request

15 from the AUC not to use that money with a specific

16 purpose?



19 THE COURT: Would you like to elaborate your

20 answer, why don't you have any knowledge regarding

21 this?

22 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, as I stated before, I

23 never took part in these meetings. That's why I

24 don't have any knowledge regarding them.

25 I -- I would like to be -- I would like to



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1 clarify that Ral Hasbn is the person who knows

2 everything about these meetings.

3 THE COURT: This Court will mix the two last

4 questions that are contained in the second numeral.

5 You have been answering this regarding this

6 specific point. Nevertheless, you will be questioned

7 once again, since it is contained in this document.

8 Do you know anything regarding that money not

9 being used with a specific purpose?

10

THE WITNESS: I don't have any knowledge11 regarding your question, Your Honor.

12 THE COURT: Numeral 3. Other aid or -- aid

13 from Chiquita or Banadex to the AUC.

14 Question: Do you know if Chiquita or Banadex

15 provided support for the AUC to acquire -- to procure

16 ammunition or weapons?



19 I would like to clarify. My knowledge comes

20 from being in charge of the security -- of the

21 security branch for the Castao brothers in the AUC.

22 The money paid as taxes for drug trafficking, and

23 that was collected from cattle businessmen and banana

24 businessmen, was all used for buying ammunition,

25 weapons, and camouflage uniforms for the AUC.



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1 THE COURT: Question: Do you know whether

2 Chiquita or Banadex supported the AUC in buying

3 weapons or ammunition? Please explain everything

4 that you know regarding this issue.



7 THE COURT: Numeral 4. Alignment between the

8 AUC and Chiquita/Banadex.

9 Did the AUC perceive their interests as being

10

in line with those of Chiquita and Banadex, in the11 context of the civil war? How do you know this?

12 THE WITNESS: I don't have knowledge regarding

13 your question, Your Honor.

14 MR. MORALES: Your Honor, may I approach?

15 MS. CHOMSKY: This is not okay.

16 MR. MORALES: Saying it out loud.

17 The questioner contains some titles that I

18 would suggest, Your Honor, that you wouldn't read.

19 This is not to direct the witness.

20 THE COURT: Please, anyone who wants to take

21 the -- to be given the floor, raise your hand.

22 MS. VAHLSING: On behalf of the -- the

23 plaintiffs, I would like to state for the record that

24 my -- myself, my person, that I am the only U.S.

25 attorney authorized to speak and ask questions on



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1 behalf of the plaintiffs in this proceeding.

2 Whether there are issues under Colombian law,

3 it's fine that Colombian lawyers participate, but in

4 terms of the questions that will be attributed to the

5 plaintiffs, I am only the representative that is

6 authorized to speak according to the court order,

7 which can be found in Section 13 of the letters

8 rogatory. Thank you.

9 THE COURT: Anyone else want to intervene?

10

Do the parties consider that there is11 inconvenience, or problem, in continuing reading

12 these titles, or would they like me to continue doing

13 so?

14 MR. DURAISWAMY: On behalf of the defendants,

15 Your Honor -- on behalf of the defendants, Your

16 Honor, it is fine with us if you do not read the

17 titles.

18 MS. VAHLSING: On behalf of the plaintiffs,

19 Your Honor, we are also in agreement that it is best

20 not to read the titles to the questions.

21 THE COURT: Okay. Question: If the AUC did --

22 did perceive their interests to be in line with those

23 of Chiquita and Banadex, in which way was this?

24 THE WITNESS: I don't have any knowledge, Your

25 Honor.



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1 Your Honor, may I ask a question?

2 THE COURT: No, you cannot ask any questions.


4 THE COURT: Did Chiquita or Banadex see their

5 interests as aligned with those of AUC, do you know?

6 THE WITNESS: I have no knowledge, Your Honor.

7 Here, in this hearing, there are defenders

8 present. And I would like to know if this hearing

9 can be carried out without a defense attorney,

10

without my own defense attorney, if it is acceptable11 to carry out this hearing, because I was notified of

12 this hearing, but my defense attorney is not here.

13 So I would like to know if that is permissible.

14 THE COURT: Are you asking me?

15 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I asked you the

16 question, but you said that I could not ask you any

17 questions. So I'm asking the question because I

18 would like to know if it is necessary for my defense

19 attorney to be here, or if I will not have any

20 problems as a result of the fact that my

21 representative is not here, if that is okay.

22 THE COURT: I repeat what I said to you at the

23 beginning. This is a hearing for testimony. This --

24 no charges are being made against you in this

25 hearing. And also I repeat, that you have no



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1 obligation to testify against yourself. That is a

2 guarantee.

3 THE WITNESS: I understand, Your Honor.

4 THE COURT: Question: Did Chiquita or Banadex

5 see their interests as -- interests as allied with

6 those of AUC?

7 THE WITNESS: I have no knowledge, Your Honor.

8 THE COURT: Question: Did any employee of

9 Chiquita or Banadex have contact with any individual,

10

or unit, of AUC?11 THE WITNESS: I have no knowledge, Your Honor.

12 Your Honor, I would like to clarify that

13 question. I repeat what I said before. The only

14 person in charge of meeting with all of those

15 companies in Urab, who has full knowledge of all of

16 that, is Mr. Ral Hasbn. He is the only person I

17 know of who was responsible for those meetings, Your

18 Honor.

19 THE COURT: Let's clarify something. The other

20 questions, there is no sense in asking the other

21 questions included on the basis of the answers that

22 he has given. However, if the parties would like for

23 them to be asked, we can ask them, No. 5, the four

24 last ones.

25 MR. DURAISWAMY: Your Honor, the defendant



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1 agrees that it is not necessary to ask those

2 questions.

3 MS. VAHLSING: Your Honor, the plaintiffs agree

4 it is not necessary to ask those questions. Thank

5 you.

6 MR. MORALES: Your Honor, as a representative

7 of the victims in Colombia, there is a need to

8 clarify and to arrive at the truth. So I would

9 request that they be asked.

10

THE COURT: The attorney stated that she is the11 representative of the plaintiffs --

12 MS. VAHLSING: I have available for Your Honor,

13 a copy of the --

14 (Conversation between the Court and clerk.)

15 THE COURT: -- so who do you represent?

16 We are going to take a break, because the

17 prosecutor's office needs to make notification to the

18 witness.

19 (A discussion was held off the record.)

20 THE COURT: Have they resolved?

21 MS. VAHLSING: Your Honor, just to support the

22 position that we are making before the Court, we

23 present to you a copy of the letters rogatory with

24 the name of Marco Simons as the designated attorney

25 for the plaintiffs, by the consensus of all



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1 plaintiffs' lawyers, other than Mr. Wolf, who is

2 represented today by Mr. Morales.

3 In addition to that, I present a power of

4 attorney signed by Mr. Marco Simons, authorizing

5 myself, Judith Chomsky, and Juan Pablo Crdenas-Meza,

6 as the attorneys who represent the plaintiffs in this

7 proceeding. Thank you.

8 If I may, in addition we have an order from the

9 Court in Florida, that was signed by the judge in

10

Florida, agreeing that there would be only one11 representative present in this proceeding on behalf

12 of the plaintiffs.

13 MR. MORALES: Your Honor, my name is Alex

14 Alberto Morales Cordoba and, as I stated, I am an

15 attorney assisting Dr. Paul David Wolf, who is

16 identified by Foreign Citizen Identity Document

17 No. 305797. Paul David Wolf is the attorney -- an

18 attorney representing the plaintiffs in the United

19 States, in cases in the United States.

20 And also now present to you a power -- rather,

21 an authorization of myself as a supporting attorney

22 in his representation. And in addition, one of the

23 contracts or agreements that Mr. Paul David Wolf made

24 with the victims of the violence in Urab by Chiquita

25 Brands International.



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1 THE COURT: Muy bien.

2 MR. DURAISWAMY: Your Honor, may I?

3 THE COURT: It is decided then that it is not

4 necessary to ask the remaining four questions of

5 No. 5, on the basis of the answers given by the

6 witness to the first two questions. Or rather --

7 interpreter correction -- the first two numbers.

8 (Conversation between Judge and clerk.)

9 THE COURT: The commission includes some

10

questions that says the following: "The defendants11 wish to ask the following questions." There are 19.

12 The judge will ask them.

13 Question: When did you act as, or when were

14 you a member of the self-defense or paramilitary

15 organizations, including the AUC, and what was your

16 role?

17 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, as I mentioned

18 previously, I entered in 1988, during the second

19 semester of 1988. For some time I was the bodyguard

20 of one of the Castao brothers, Fidel Castao.

21 INTERPRETER HAND: The interpreter would like

22 to ask a question of clarification.

23 (Spanish between Interpreter Hand and the

24 witness.)

25 THE WITNESS: Bodyguard of John Ernaldo, who



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1 was the manager of livestock farms of Fidel Castao.

2 THE COURT: Question No. 2: As a paramilitary

3 person, did you operate, or command, any of the

4 divisions in the banana-growing region of Urab,

5 Antioquia, or Magdalena?

6 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I'm going to finish

7 the preceding question, which I didn't finish because

8 of the --

9 From being the bodyguard of John Ernaldo, I

10

became a manager of farms of Fidel Castao. I was a11 manager of a farm in Crdoba, a farm called Costa de

12 Oro, close to Crdoba.

13 INTERPRETER HAND: Interpreter correction.

14 Close to Tiega Alta -- Tierralta.

15 THE WITNESS: From there, from Crdoba, Fidel

16 Castao bought some farms in the area of San Pedro de

17 Urab. From there I went to manage those farms in

18 San Pedro de Urab.

19 I was the manager of those farms until the year

20 1994, when Fidel Castao died. Carlos then comes,

21 seeks his brother Vicente to replace Fidel, and then

22 I become the manager of security for Carlos and

23 Vincente. And I was there -- I stayed there until

24 1997 as -- in charge of security for the two

25 brothers, brother Vicente and Carlos. And then,



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1 beginning in 1997, I stayed just with Vicente until

2 2004, which was my demobilization.

3 And your second question, Your Honor, I did not

4 have any group under my command, nor did I operate in

5 Magdalena.

6 THE COURT: Clarification of the second

7 question. The second question refers not just to the

8 department of Magdalena, but also the area of Urab.

9 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I did not have groups

10

under my charge, combat groups, in the area of Urab.11 I only had, under my command, security personnel for

12 the Castao brothers. I was only responsible for

13 their security. I did not have any groups under my

14 charge.

15 The commander in charge of those groups was

16 Commander 00, who was a retired military army

17 commander, who was the army commander of the Castao

18 brothers.

19 THE COURT: Question No. 3: Did the

20 paramilitary groups obtain effective control over the

21 regions where they operated?

22 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, in the areas where

23 the self-defense groups operated, fighting the

24 guerrillas, for many, many years control was

25 100 percent under -- under the control of the force



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1 that operated in that area.

2 THE COURT: Question No. 4: In your opinion,

3 did the AUC provide security to the population in the

4 regions under its control? Please explain.

5 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, in the zones where I

6 was located, in the department of Crdoba and San

7 Pedro de Urab, this is where the Castaos -- Castao

8 brothers operated, and there was 100 percent control

9 in those areas. And being there, I was part of that.

10

But there were commanders that were responsible11 for providing protection to the population, to the

12 campesinos in those areas. And logically, as I was

13 in those areas, I was part of providing security to

14 the population there.

15 THE COURT: Question No. 5: Did the

16 paramilitaries commit acts of violence against those

17 who refused to obey their orders or demands?

18 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, these areas were

19 under the control of the self-defense groups. Your

20 Honor, if an order was issued, it was followed.

21 Someone in that area who did not obey the order left

22 the area, or died.

23 THE COURT: Are you going to continue, or had

24 you finished?

25 THE WITNESS: I finished.



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1 THE COURT: No. 6: Was the Colombian

2 government prepared to, or able to, hamper or counter

3 the actions of the AUC?

4 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, in 1994 the FARC

5 guerrillas had power in Colombia, in almost all of

6 the regions of Colombia.

7 Fidel Castao, before he died, Your Honor,

8 negotiated with the FARC to join forces with the

9 FARC. Carlos Castao sought out his brother, Vicente

10

who, at that time, was not part of the effort, and11 was not working with Fidel. He sought him out after

12 Fidel died.

13 Carlos told Vicente that there were

14 negotiations with the FARC, and he asked him if those

15 negotiations should continue. Vicente said no, that

16 if he was to come in, that it would be to put an end

17 to the FARC.

18 Vicente Castao, Your Honor, began to arm small

19 groups, self-defense groups, together with

20 Commander 00, who was a military commander. And they

21 began arming small groups in the different regions of

22 San Pedro, Urab, Turbo, Mecocle, Apartad,

23 Chigorod, and extending from there.

24 Your Honor, in all of those towns that I

25 mentioned, there were police, and there were army in



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1 all of those neighborhoods. There was a prosecutor's

2 office. There, all of these people representing the

3 state supported the entrance of these self-defense

4 groups, in order to be able to go into those towns.

5 The growth of these -- of this organization,

6 Your Honor, was done with the support of the

7 Colombian government, with many officials and

8 politicians.

9 And the growth was very fast. In 12 years

10

there were 30,000 armed men. And we would move11 around, go into these towns, and the police never

12 detained us, Your Honor. The state could have

13 detained us, but it did not because it needed an

14 armed group to fight the guerrillas, to go into homes

15 at night and take out the militias, take out the

16 guerrillas, and murder them. The state was not doing

17 that.

18 The state allowed our growth, Your Honor. And

19 then, when the state saw that by 2002-2003, we had

20 the guerrillas basically cornered in the -- in the

21 jungle, and in Medelln, cities like Medelln, for

22 example, there wasn't a single guerrilla fighter; in

23 Bogot, it was about 40 percent clean; the highways

24 about 90 percent, without any problems.

25 And to conclude Your Honor, the state had full



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1 knowledge of the fact that we existed, and allowed

2 this growth, Your Honor.


4 THE COURT: Question No. 7: What portion of

5 the funds from the AUC came from drug trafficking,

6 kidnapping, and extortion, and came from Chiquita or

7 other sources, and how do you know this?

8 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, if I understood

9 correctly --

10

THE COURT: Would you want me to repeat the11 question?

12 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor.

13 THE COURT: This is a question and not a

14 statement: What -- again, what portion of the -- of

15 the funding of the AUC came from drug trafficking,

16 kidnapping, extortion, from Chiquita Brands or other

17 sources, and how do you know this?

18 THE WITNESS: To my knowledge, the funding for

19 this organization mostly came from drug trafficking,

20 Your Honor.

21 THE COURT: They also ask: How do you know

22 this?

23 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I know this because

24 in all areas -- well, in where there was presence of

25 the AUC in Urab or -- or there was Pedro Hasbn,



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1 H.H., and El Alemn, there was -- tax was collected

2 for each kilo of drugs that was trafficked. For each

3 kilo trafficked, 50 U.S. dollars paid per kilo. This

4 was by order of Vicente Castao.

5 THE COURT: Question No. 12: Did the AUC

6 collect vaccines, extortion, and bribes? Which

7 companies paid for this? Did anyone refuse to pay

8 for -- or to make those payments? What happened to

9 those who refused -- if so, what happened to those

10

who refused?11 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, in the areas where

12 the AUC entered, there had been taxes collected by

13 the guerrilla long before those were collected from

14 cattle businessmen. Whoever didn't pay, they would

15 burn their farms, kill their managers.

16 When the AUC entered these areas, they did it

17 in -- in a lighter way. So if the guerrilla

18 collected 100 pesos, the paramilitary would collect

19 50 pesos tax.

20 The AUC entered these areas and it stayed

21 there. So farmers, businessmen, companies, whoever

22 was -- had business in those areas with presence of

23 the AUC would pay, would make these payments.

24 Your Honor, there were even businessmen who saw

25 that in areas where AUC group -- entered by AUC



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1 groups were -- were formerly -- with former guerrilla

2 presence, where the -- where the cattle businessmen

3 may return, these businessmen sought out -- sought

4 out Vincente and Carlos. This was stated in previous

5 versions. Over ten or 12 businessmen approached

6 Vicente and Carlos for them to form armed groups in

7 the area of Valle del Cauca. They would approach the

8 businessmen from the sugar cane -- from the sugar

9 mills, for them to form armed groups in this area.

10

THE COURT: Question No. 9: Do you have11 personal and firsthand information regarding payments

12 from Chiquita Brands to paramilitary?

13 THE WITNESS: No, Your Honor, I don't -- I do

14 not.

15 THE COURT: Question No. 10: Do you have any

16 personal or firsthand information regarding payments

17 made by the Convivir Papagayo, Tagua de Darien, and

18 Punta de Piedra to the AUC?

19 THE WITNESS: No, Your Honor. But I would like

20 to clarify that these convivir were under the command

21 of Mr. Ral Hasbn.

22 Your Honor, I would like to clarify. These

23 convivir were organized by Ral Hasbn, alongside

24 Vincente and Carlos Castao. I wasn't present. This

25 is something that I just heard. Ral told Vicente



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1 that this convivir needed to be organized in order to

2 collect funding from businessmen. Those were formed

3 under the administration of former president --

4 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry, former

5 president?

6 THE INTERPRETER: Alvaro Uribe Velez.

7 THE COURT: Question No. 11: Have you met or

8 had any communication with executives,

9 representatives, or officials of Chiquita?

10

THE WITNESS: No, Your Honor, I have not.11 THE COURT: Question No. 12: Have you killed,

12 ordered the killing, or participated in the killings,

13 of individuals? If so, how many, and how did you

14 participate?

15 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, with all due respect,

16 I don't understand the question. This is all

17 included in my free versions before prosecutors and

18 attorneys.

19 MS. VAHLSING: Your Honor, if I may, on behalf

20 of the plaintiffs, it is not necessary for us that

21 this question be answered. But we should hear from

22 the defense counsel, since it's their question.

23 THE COURT: The question was already answered.

24 THE WITNESS: I just wanted to clarify one --

25 when the oath was taken, the witness was told that he



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1 would have certain guarantees. Is this correct?

2 THE COURT: It is repeated. You're -- you're

3 not compelled to declare against yourself, your

4 permanent companion, or your children. This is a

5 guarantee that is provided to you.

6 Question No. 13: Did you help in killing or

7 organizing the killing of Carlos Castao?

8 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, this is part of my

9 confession in the justice and peace law. Prosecutors

10

and justices already have this confession. I would11 like to request for you to respect this confession.

12 THE COURT: Did the prosecution try to remove

13 you from the justice and peace law process, because

14 they estimated that you had lied in your testimony?

15 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, unfortunately in this

16 process we were summoned to tell the truth. But

17 whenever we affected important figures of the

18 country, so to speak, we were deemed as -- as liars.

19 I have had very honest prosecutors, as well

20 as -- there are honest prosecutors, as well as

21 corrupt prosecutors. For instance, I had a

22 Ms. Liliana Calle who replaced Dr. Aponte. She

23 didn't review my documents, and she immediately

24 requested for me to be removed from the justice and

25 peace law -- for my removal from the justice and



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1 peace law.

2 Fortunately, I had the support of over 4,000

3 victims. They stated that they -- against my removal

4 from the justice and peace law, as well as nine

5 judges from Bogot.

6 THE COURT: Question No. 15: Before today,

7 have you spoken to any representatives of the

8 defendants in the case against Chiquita Brands?


10

MS. VAHLSING: Objection to translation. I11 believe word used was "demandantes, and that it was

12 for plaintiffs.


14 THE COURT: I would like to repeat the

15 question. Maybe I read wrong. Maybe I misread.

16 Before today, have you talked to anyone

17 regarding the claims against Chiquita?

18 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, not today, and not

19 for the nine years that I have been in prison have I

20 discussed anything related to this process, Your

21 Honor.

22 THE COURT: Question No. 16: Has someone asked

23 you to provide testimony regarding Chiquita, or has

24 anyone given you an affidavit for you to sign

25 regarding Chiquita? If so, who?



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1 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, no one has approached

2 me regarding this. If they did, I would -- I would

3 refuse, because my goal is to tell the truth, even if

4 this affect figures and businessmen.

5 INTERPRETER BARRERA: The interpreter would

6 like to request for the witness to clarify regarding

7 this answer.

8 (Spanish between Interpreter Barrera and

9 witness.)

10

THE WITNESS: And I wouldn't let anyone11 influence me into providing testimony that is not

12 true. I wouldn't let this happen.

13 THE COURT: Question No. 17: Has anyone

14 approached you, or anyone that you know, with --

15 offering valuables for you to testify in favor of

16 Chiquita? If so, who?

17 THE WITNESS: No, Your Honor, I haven't been

18 offered, absolutely nothing.


20 MR. ARVELO: For the record, I wanted to

21 correct another translation error, if I may, Your

22 Honor. That the question was: Has anyone given or

23 offered you, or anyone you know, anything of value to

24 testify about Chiquita, not in favor of Chiquita.

25 THE COURT: I think that he didn't understand



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1 the question. The Court is reading the question as

2 it is written here, and you can discuss it in the

3 court with the judge.


5 Question No. 18: Has anyone provided, offered,

6 or paid for security protection for you, or anyone

7 you know? If so, who?

8 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, at this moment, the

9 only entities that are providing security for me are

10

the National Penitentiary Institute and the attorney11 general's office, no one else.

12 THE COURT: Question No. 19: Are any of the

13 Colombians suing Chiquita at risk from reprisals from

14 you, for having sued Chiquita?

15 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I would never. In

16 regard to me, they can sleep tight and they can know

17 for sure that I do not represent any danger to these

18 people.

19 Your Honor, if you would allow me, I would like

20 to add in front of the attorneys of the victims, and

21 many more victims that are not present, that this

22 should be done convicted, and should be paid for.

23 All the businessmen, the politicians, that paid for

24 this -- for this organization to kill fellow

25 Colombians, hurt greatly the country with all the



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1 contributions from politicians: weapons, ammunition,

2 and uniforms were bought. So I would like to state

3 that this shouldn't go without a conviction.


5 MS. VAHLSING: Objection to translation. I

6 would like to clarify that the witness also said that

7 there were contributions from both companies and

8 politicians for weapons and ammunition and uniforms.

9 I'd like to clarify that with the witness, please.

10

Thank you.11 (Interpreter Barrera continues.)

12 THE COURT: So noted.

13 We have finished with the questioner from the

14 defendant.

15 It also says here from -- coming from the judge

16 in the Florida court, that the plaintiffs may ask

17 questions as well.

18 Let's clarify something. Let us not repeat

19 questions that have been answered already. And

20 please take into account that the witness isn't

21 compelled to declare against himself.

22 Who is asking questions? Your name for the

23 record?


25 MS. VAHLSING: My name is Marissa Ann Vahlsing.



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1 I am an attorney from the United States. And I am

2 acting in the case on behalf of the victims who are

3 the plaintiffs in this case, with the exception of

4 the victims represented by the attorney Paul Wolf.

5 THE COURT: You may state your appearance.

6 MR. DURAISWAMY: Your Honor, may I make a brief

7 statement before Ms. Vahlsing begins her questioning?

8 THE COURT: About what issue?

9 MR. DURAISWAMY: Your Honor, the parties agree,

10

consistent with the procedure at U.S. depositions,11 that all objections to questions are reserved except

12 for objections to the form of the question.

13 Accordingly, the attorneys may make objections

14 to the form of the question made by -- asked by

15 either side, but this will be decided later by the

16 U.S. judge, and should not affect the examination

17 here. It is just to state the objection on the

18 written record.

19 THE COURT: So noted. It states -- so states

20 here that the objections will be resolved -- decided

21 by the judge at a later time.

22 MR. MORALES: Your Honor, Alex Alberto. Again,

23 good afternoon to you, Your Honor. I'm Alex Alberto

24 Morales Cordoba and I represent Paul Wolf as an

25 assisting attorney. He is the attorney for more than



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1 4,000 families of victims of the violence in Urab.

2 And I also would like to request that I be given the

3 opportunity to ask questions of the witness.

4 MS. VAHLSING: If I may be heard?

5 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, with all due respect

6 to you, and to all those present, I would like to

7 again clarify that I had no participation and no

8 knowledge of negotiations between the company that

9 you mentioned, or companies that you mentioned.

10

We've been here talking about it for an hour and a11 half, two hours, and I have no knowledge.

12 And I would ask you -- I'm open to an

13 investigation being opened regarding myself and to

14 determine whether or not I have any -- any knowledge.

15 But I would ask you, today is Wednesday, today is the

16 visiting day, and my family is here at the prison. I

17 don't know if you can help me with this, but I have

18 no knowledge of this company. And I have given the

19 information of the person who has all of the

20 knowledge, who can tell you specifics about the dates

21 of meetings, with whom, how much money was paid, if

22 it was voluntary, if there were threats, and that

23 person is Ral Hasbn.

24 I have no knowledge whatsoever. I wish that I

25 did have such knowledge, in order to be able to get



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1 to the bottom of it. But I have no knowledge. I

2 wish I had been present at a meeting with Vincente

3 and Carlos and Ral Hasbn and Chiquita, so that I

4 would have the knowledge and I could provide the

5 knowledge to you, and to the justice and peace

6 commission. But I swear to you, Your Honor, that I

7 have no knowledge.

8 THE COURT: You have every right to see your

9 family and that cannot be violated. Until what time

10

is that occurring?11 THE WITNESS: Until 4:00 o'clock in the

12 afternoon, Your Honor.

13 THE COURT: So we will spend an hour, because

14 the attorneys for the plaintiff and the defendant

15 also have the right to ask questions. Agreed?

16 THE WITNESS: Agreed. Okay.

17 THE COURT: Okay. Attorneys for the

18 plaintiffs.

19 DIRECT EXAMINATION

20 BY MS. VAHLSING:

21 Q. I'm going to begin an introduction in Spanish

22 to the witness and then I will proceed in English.

23 (In Spanish) Good afternoon, Sr. Rldan. Thank

24 you for your time and your attention. I understand that

25 today is the family visit day and that you wish to see



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1 your family. We want you to be able to see your family.

2 I understand that that is very important. I also

3 understand that there may be things about which you do

4 have some knowledge, and we will try to clarify which

5 matters those may be in a short period of time, so that

6 you will be able to see your family.

7 I want to thank you very much for cooperating

8 with this testimony, for taking -- for taking the time.

9 We have travelled very far to see you, and I want to

10

thank you again very much for your cooperation.11 My name is Marissa Vahlsing and I am an

12 attorney in the United States, representing victims in a

13 civil suit in the United States against Chiquita and some

14 of their high-level executives. And that case, I want to

15 clarify, is exclusively against that company and some of

16 its high-level executives.

17 (In English) Mr. Rldan, you mentioned earlier

18 that you gave testimony in the justice and peace process.

19 I am handing you what we believe is a transcript of a

20 testimony that you gave on the 11th of September of the

21 year 2007.

22 Do you recognize this testimony?

23 A. Well, I'd have to read all of this.

24 Q. How about I draw your attention to page -- hold

25 on one second -- to the last page of the document.



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1 THE COURT: A moment, question. The Court asks

2 counsel if this document is complete.

3 MS. VAHLSING: Counsel wishes to state for the

4 record that this document was provided to us by the

5 defendants' counsel during an exhibit exchange. We

6 have the same question.

7 INTERPRETER HAND: The witness attorney, the

8 defense attorney?

9 MS. VAHLSING: No, the defense counsel.

10

THE COURT: Because this is not a testimony.11 This is a free version. A free version, or voluntary

12 statement, is something that is received in Colombia

13 when a person may be a victim or a party to a case.

14 So, please reformulate your question taking

15 into account these clarifications offered by the

16 Court.

17 MS. VAHLSING: Okay.

18 BY MS. VAHLSING:

19 Q. Mr. Rldan, if you could, please turn to the

20 last page of the document and review the text on that

21 last page.

22 A. I would ask that you read it for me. I didn't

23 bring my glasses and I can't see well, so if you could

24 read it for me, please.

25 MR. CALDERON-MEZA: Juan Pablo Calderon.



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1 INTERPRETER BARRERA: May the interpreter have

2 a moment to locate the text?

3 MR. CALDERON-MEZA: It starts on the previous

4 page.

5 THE COURT: You said the last page. The last

6 page says, "I am talking about the zone of San Pedro

7 de Urab. That's what the question referred to.

8 MR. CALDERON-MEZA: It says the following: "I

9 am talking about the zone of San Pedro de Urab, and

10

then the zones of Turbo, Apartad, Carepa, and11 Chigorod. There was a different kind of management.

12 There, they did have to pay. All of the banana

13 companies all had to pay. It was managed -- in the

14 zone of Hernn Hernndez, they paid. In the zone of

15 Michael, they paid. Companies paid, for example,

16 Postobn, beer companies. Everyone who had companies

17 pays something, and they paid voluntarily because

18 they were --

19 INTERPRETER BARRERA: Excuse me, Your Honor.

20 INTERPRETER HAND: The interpreters are

21 consulting regarding a term.

22 MR. CALDERON-MEZA: Under pressure.

23 THE COURT: Did you understand the question?

24 MS. VAHLSING: There was no question.

25 THE WITNESS: I would like to -- I understand



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1 that -- well, I would like to clarify that Michael

2 was the second commander of Ral Hasbn, of Pedro

3 Hasbn. Michael was the one in charge of meeting

4 with businessmen, agricultural producers. He was the

5 commander.

6 You asked a question about the Postobn, and

7 that the companies paid voluntarily and, well, what I

8 want to say is that with guerrillas in there ruining

9 all of the companies by paying -- charging extremely

10

high taxes, when the self-defense groups started11 coming in and they were charging way less taxes, all

12 of them looked to finance the self-defense groups.

13 Logically, some of them also did it out of fear. And

14 of course, nobody likes to give away the money out of

15 their pockets. But the -- but many of the companies

16 did pay it voluntarily because they saw that the

17 self-defense groups were providing security, and they

18 wanted to protect their wealth.

19 BY MS. VAHLSING:

20 Q. Mr. Rldan, I'm wondering if you could tell me

21 how you knew this.

22 A. Well, let's see. As, you know, Your Honor, in

23 2007 we were just starting with -- to tell versions. The

24 prosecutor's office didn't even know what justice and

25 peace was. It was a process that was just starting, it



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1 was being invented.

2 I told what I knew, but I was not there. I did

3 not go to Postobn and talk with the manager. These are

4 things that I heard, hearsay. So the justice -- in the

5 justice and peace process, the official, Nubia Chavez,

6 wanted to know what was going on in Turbo, Apartad --

7 Turbo, Apartad, and these areas, and Mr. Castao had

8 fled. And so there was going to be a big void in the

9 information.

10

And so I said what I knew. Vincente would go11 and talk to Pedro and then say -- tell me, so-and-so is

12 going to be charged, this and that. But it's not -- I

13 was not there. These are things that I heard. And

14 these -- this was -- these are versions starting in 2007,

15 because they wanted to advance with the process.

16 And then Mr. Castao did turn himself in and

17 began to collaborate and, in my opinion, Your Honor, he

18 is collaborating, he is telling the truth.

19 INTERPRETER HAND: And the interpreter would

20 like to state that the interpreter missed the last

21 portion of the answer and would like to request a

22 repetition, or request that the attorney re-ask the

23 question.

24 And the interpreter would also like to request

25 that the witness be instructed to give shorter



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1 answers.

2 THE COURT: Sure.

3 (In Spanish between the Court and Ms. Cadavid.)

4 THE COURT: But we will replay the tape.


6 THE WITNESS: So the last question that the

7 doctor asked me was about the financing of Postobn,

8 and how did I know. And I said that I knew this by

9 what I heard. And at that time Mr. Pedro Hasbn had

10

not been detained and Ms. Chavez wanted me to say --11 to tell everything that I knew.

12 MS. VAHLSING: For the record, I'd like to

13 clarify that my question was not specific to

14 Postobn.

15 THE COURT: He has not finished.

16 THE WITNESS: So you asked me how did I know.

17 I heard it, because I was not there in those

18 negotiations with Postobn, or the other companies.

19 But I would like to ask the attorney to listen

20 to Ral Hasbn. He can tell you how much was paid in

21 dollars, in pesos, by Postobn, by Chiquita, by all

22 of the companies and all of the businessmen.

23 THE COURT: Another question.

24 BY MS. VAHLSING:

25 Q. You mentioned that you heard this information



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1 from others. In addition to Ral Hasbn, did you hear

2 this information from anyone else?

3 A. I heard it from Vincente Castao, who gave

4 orders to Ral Hasbn.


6 By MS. VAHLSING:

7 Q. What type of orders was Vincente Castao giving

8 to Ral Hasbn, if you know?

9 MR. DURAISWAMY: Object to the form.

10

THE WITNESS: I repeat, that regarding the11 financing in Urab, Vincente Castao is dead,

12 unfortunately. So the person who can provide that

13 information is Mr. Ral Hasbn.

14 If I knew, trust me, with all due respect, that

15 I would sit here and tell you everything that I --

16 that I would know. But I don't. I -- I don't know

17 anything regarding Urab, or the financing in Urab,

18 or the banana companies. The person who could sit

19 here for days and tell you all about this would be

20 Ral Hasbn.

21 THE COURT: Excuse me. Since Mr. Rldan has

22 his family waiting for him, and he has been in prison

23 for many years, he has every right to see them. So I

24 would like to ask for the plaintiffs to ask two more

25 questions, and allow the defendants to ask their



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1 questions.

2 MS. VAHLSING: If I can request, Your Honor,

3 for you to give us 30 seconds, or one minute, to

4 discuss among the plaintiffs what are the questions

5 that we would like to raise.

6 (A discussion was held off the record.)

7 THE COURT: Should we continue?

8 MS. VAHLSING: Yes, we're ready, Your Honor.

9 BY MS. VAHLSING:

10 Q. My first question is: Mr. Rldan, when you11 heard about conversations about financing, were you a

12 member of the AUC?

13 A. Yes, Counselor.

14 Q. And the rest of the people who you heard these

15 conversations from, were they members of the AUC at the

16 time?

17 A. Yes, Counselor.

18 MS. VAHLSING: That was part of a single

19 question. Is it okay if I proceed?

20 THE COURT: Very sure.

21 BY MS. VAHLSING:

22 Q. Mr. Rldan, were you ever charged with

23 extorting Chiquita or Banadex?

24 A. Not to my knowledge, not -- not to the day.

25 THE COURT: You can ask a couple of more



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1 questions. We can --


3 THE COURT: -- go for a little bit longer.


5 BY MS. VAHLSING:

6 Q. Mr. Rldan, do you know the identities of any

7 the individuals who are plaintiffs against Chiquita, in

8 the lawsuit against Chiquita Brands, in the United

9 States?

10

A. No, Counselor.11 Q. Mr. Rldan, do you know if records were kept

12 for the financing of the AUC?

13 A. Every commander kept those records in their

14 areas.

15 Q. Do you know if those records exist today?

16 A. We would have to ask the commander, for

17 instance, in this case, Mr. Ral Hasbn.

18 Q. Sr. Rldan, do you know if the AUC ever

19 received shipments of arms from outside the country?

20 A. That is to say, that they came from a foreign

21 country?

22 Q. I can clarify. Do you know if the AUC ever

23 received arms on ships that arrived at ports in Colombia,

24 on boats from outside of the country, outside of

25 Colombia?



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1 A. Yes, Counselor. I have knowledge of a big

2 weapons shipment that came to the Urab Gulf.

3 The person who has all the knowledge regarding

4 this is Mr. Ral Hasbn, because he was the person who

5 received that shipment.

6 Q. Did Ral Hasbn tell you anything about that

7 arms shipment that arrived in the port in Urab?


9 THE WITNESS: He didn't tell me anything

10

personally, but that a weapons shipment came, or11 reached Vincente Castao himself.

12 BY MS. VAHLSING:

13 Q. Did Vincente Castao tell you anything about

14 the arms shipment?

15 A. He said that it -- that shipment arrived the

16 Gulf of Urab.

17 Q. Did you ever hear if the ship arrived at a port

18 of Banadex?


20 THE WITNESS: I don't -- I don't have

21 knowledge. I just know that that shipment arrived to

22 a certain area, but I -- I don't have further

23 knowledge of the shipment. And I don't know if it

24 arrived to Urab specifically.

25



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1 BY MS. VAHLSING:

2 Q. Mr. Rldan, in addition to giving the versin

3 libres as a part of the justice and appeals process, did

4 you take any other steps during your demobilization?


6 THE WITNESS: I don't understand. What do you

7 mean by "adopting"?


9 like to state for the record that the word "adopting"

10

was part of the interpretation in Spanish, and not11 literal from the question itself.

12 THE COURT: Excuse me, if you -- if you

13 collaborated otherwise, different from the free

14 versions.

15 MS. VAHLSING: I can reformulate.

16 BY MS. VAHLSING:

17 Q. Sr. Rldan, did you provide the authorities in

18 Colombia with any other source of information, other than

19 oral testimony, during the demobilization process?

20 A. In many, a thousand different ways.

21 Q. Did any of that information include documents?

22 A. Documents? Are you referring to land

23 scriptures, or what type of documents are you referring

24 to?

25 Q. I can be more specific.



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1 I'm wondering if you handed over any e-mails of

2 Vincente Castao?

3 A. Yes, in the justice and peace process.

4 THE COURT: Last question.

5 BY MS. VAHLSING:

6 Q. Last question. Can you tell us what those

7 e-mails said?


9 THE WITNESS: It would take a year for me to do

10

so.11 MS. VAHLSING: I think it was the last

12 question. It was the last question, I wouldn't

13 insist.

14 THE COURT: Do you have another question

15 related to that question?

16 BY MS. VAHLSING:

17 Q. Okay. So along the same lines my question is:

18 Did any of those e-mails, to your knowledge, mention

19 Chiquita?

20 MR. DURAISWAMY: Objection. Form. Foundation.

21 THE WITNESS: I had provided a thumb drive that

22 belonged to Vincente Castao, where he mentioned a

23 lot of people. I would like to request for you -- I

24 suggest for you, Counsel, to request that -- that

25 information.



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1 THE COURT: The representative of Attorney Paul

2 Wolf.

3 CROSS-EXAMINATION

4 BY MR. MORALES:

5 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Jesus Ignacio Rldan,

6 for your time and your clarity. I won't take very long,

7 because I would like for you to enjoy the company of your

8 family.

9 I would like to ask you regarding a term that

10

you used. The question is, for the AUC and yourself,11 what does the term "vaccines" mean?

12 (Ms. Chomsky left the proceedings in progress.)

13 A. Counsel, for the AUC, "vaccines" referred to

14 funding. This is when you approach a company, a

15 businessman, or a cattle raiser, and you tell them, for

16 instance, to provide 10 million pesos. That's what it

17 means, funding.

18 Q. Mr. Jesus Ignacio Rldan, can you specify, or

19 clarify, what was the purpose of the AUC whenever they

20 received this funding?

21 MR. DURAISWAMY: Objection. Foundation. Form.

22 THE WITNESS: I think I said it already, but I

23 would like to clarify. This funding would be used to

24 pay members that were patrolling the areas, to get

25 medicine, to buy groceries, weapons, and ammunition,



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1 and helicopters that the AUC had.

2 (Ms. Chomsky rejoined the proceedings in

3 progress.)

4 BY MR. MORALES:

5 Q. Mr. Rldan, can you clarify, or elaborate in

6 your own words, do you think that Chiquita Brands or

7 Banadex paid those vaccines to the AUC?

8 MR. DURAISWAMY: Objection. Lack of

9 foundation. Form.

10

THE WITNESS: As I said before, I did not11 attend these meetings, so I wouldn't be able to say

12 how much that -- did this company pay.

13 Mr. Ral Hasbn, as I've said before, is the

14 person who has all the knowledge regarding this

15 situation.

16 Also, I think -- I cannot assure, but I think

17 Commander Jorge Cuarenta, who is currently in prison

18 in the United States, has information regarding this.

19 Being in prison in Pavilion 1 here, in this --

20 in this prison facility, I overheard Jorge saying

21 that -- that this company, Chiquita, paid him. But

22 again, I would like for you to approach and try to

23 get to Jorge Cuarenta, Commander Jorge Cuarenta, to

24 get more information regarding this issue.

25 THE COURT: Counsel for the defendants.



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1 CROSS-EXAMINATION

2 BY MR. DURAISWAMY:

3 Q. Thank you, Sr. Rldan. I apologize, we did not

4 know this was being done on a day that you were expecting

5 visitors. I have just a few questions, and then we would

6 be very happy to let you go and see your family.

7 Mr. Rldan, do you have any reason to believe

8 that Salvatore Mancuso has any firsthand personal

9 knowledge about interactions between the AUC and

10

Chiquita?11 MS. VAHLSING: Objection. Form. Lack of

12 foundation.


14 like to clarify the question. Could you please

15 repeat the question?

16 MR. DURAISWAMY: Sure.

17 By MR. DURAISWAMY:

18 Q. Mr. Rldan, do you have any reason to believe

19 that Salvatore Mancuso has any firsthand personal

20 knowledge about interactions between the AUC and

21 Chiquita?

22 MS. VAHLSING: Objection. Form.

23 THE WITNESS: Counsel, Salvatore Mancuso was a

24 member of the AUC, of the Castao house, who served

25 under the Castao house under Carlos and Vincente.



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1 He knew about all the companies funding the AUC.

2 He entered as a commander -- he started in 1995

3 under the Castao house. He went from Urab, went on

4 to Cordoba, and then Magdalena. So I would say

5 Carlos, Vincente, and Salvatore Mancuso would meet at

6 least -- would meet frequently, at least four times a

7 week, and they would tell all. So I know that

8 Salvatore Mancuso attended several of those meetings

9 regarding -- in which it was discussed, companies and

10

the funding of the AUC.11 I would like to clarify to you, Your Honor, and

12 to you, Counsel, that Salvatore Mancuso was the

13 commander under Jorge Cuarenta.

14 MS. VAHLSING: Objection to translation. Was

15 he under or over Jorge Cuarenta?

16 THE WITNESS: Mancuso was the commander over

17 Jorge Cuarenta. Jorge Cuarenta was below Mancuso.


19 Q. Mr. Rldan, is Mr. Hasbn in this prison

20 currently?



23 Q. If you know.

24 A. Yes, yes, he is in this prison right now.

25 Q. Do you consider him to be a friend?



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1 A. Both friend and a serious man.

2 Q. Has Mr. Hasbn ever told you he was in

3 discussions with U.S. lawyers to receive money for

4 providing testimony in these cases?


6 THE WITNESS: No, he never did.


8 Q. Has he ever talked to you about this case?

9 MR. MORALES: Your Honor, the witness has

10

answered that question several times already.11 THE COURT: Go ahead and answer it.

12 THE WITNESS: I know, and he has told me that

13 he has knowledge regarding all the companies that

14 provided funding for the AUC, including Chiquita

15 Brands. I -- again, this is something that I've

16 heard, but -- and that he has told me. This is not

17 something that I know firsthand. But I -- I know

18 that he -- that Mr. Hasbn knows who paid how much,

19 how many companies, how the shipment got -- how the

20 weapons shipment got to Colombia, who brought it. I

21 know this is all information that Mr. Ral Hasbn

22 knows.


24 Q. And other than Mr. Hasbn and Vincente Castao,

25 you're not aware of any other individual who is



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1 knowledgeable about interactions between the AUC and

2 Chiquita; is that correct?

3 A. The people that may know a lot more about this

4 are probably dead, but were Carlos and Vincente Castao.

5 Some other people may know, may have

6 information regarding this, such as Freddy Rendn

7 Herrera, who was close with Pedro, and they were -- they

8 were close friends, and they were also commanders in

9 nearby areas.

10

(Interpreter Hand continues.)11 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I would also like to

12 say that there is another person who is

13 collaborating, both with the justice and peace

14 process and with cases in the United States, who has

15 been extradited, and that's Hebert Veloza, H.H.,

16 care-pollo, because he was in charge of the

17 neighboring -- the area neighboring Pedro's area.

18 And so he was in constant communication with Vincente

19 Castao and Pedro Hasbn. And so I believe he would

20 also have information about the those who financed

21 and supported the AUC in that those regions.


23 Q. Did Mr. Rendn ever tell you personally that he

24 has -- he was involved in interactions with Chiquita?




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1 INTERPRETER HAND: I'm sorry, Counsel, did you

2 say Mr. Rendn?

3 By MR. DURAISWAMY:

4 Q. Rendn ever tell you personally that he was

5 involved in interaction with Chiquita?

6 A. No, Counsel.

7 Q. And did Salvatore Mancuso ever tell you

8 personally that he was involved in interactions with

9 Chiquita?

10

A. Well, these were commanders, Counsel, who were11 in communication, ongoing communication, meetings, with

12 Carlos Vincente, Salvatore Mancuso. They would meet in a

13 room, in a kiosk, frequently, and talk about all of these

14 things. But did Salvatore tell me personally? No,

15 counsel.

16 Q. Sr. Rldan, thank you so much for your time. I

17 have no more questions. I hope you have an opportunity

18 to meet with your family today.

19 A. Thank you very much to all of you.

20 MS. VAHLSING: Thank you as well, on the part

21 of the plaintiffs, the victims, we thank you very

22 much.

23 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much, and may God

24 bless you.

25 (Jesus Ignacio Rldan Perez was excused at



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1 1:05 p.m.)

2 THE COURT: Given the time that was set aside

3 for this hearing, I would ask you if it would be

4 necessary to identify another date to continue with

5 the examination of this witness. If you would like,

6 you can consult among yourselves.

7 Another point -- and another point, another

8 attorney came, who represented herself as the

9 attorney of Freddy Rendn Herrera. They were unaware

10

that the hearing was today, they went to a different11 court, to the Second Civil Circuit, and this is the

12 penal criminal circuit. So there was an error there.

13 She did not authorize us to give out this phone

14 number, but the name, yes. Her name is Victoria

15 Ayala. And she also said that he is prepared to

16 provide testimony, and you all can get in touch with

17 her.

18 So the questions are, if you need for Ignacio

19 Rldan to give more testimony and, also, if you would

20 like to hear from Freddy Rendn Herrera.

21 MR. DURAISWAMY: Your Honor, for the

22 defendants, we believe it is clear that Mr. Rldan

23 does not have knowledge of information relevant to

24 this case. So we do not believe it is necessary to

25 schedule an additional date of testimony for him.



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1 THE COURT: Thank you very much.

2 The representative of Attorney Paul Wolf.

3 MR. MORALES: Your Honor, I believe that

Monoleche Deposition Transcript

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