JULY 31, 2014 Trial Transcript Trentadue.pdf

8/19/2019 JULY 31, 2014 Trial Transcript Trentadue.pdf

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I N T H E U NI TE D S TA TE S D IS TR IC T C OU RT

F OR T HE D IS TR IC T O F U TA H

CENTRAL DIVISION

In re: ))

JESSE C. TRENTADUE ))

Plaintiff, ))

v. )Case No. 2:08-CV-788CW)

F E DE R AL B U RE A U O F I N VE S TI G AT I ON , )et al., )

)Defendants. )

T ra ns cr ip t o f B en ch T ri al

B EF OR E T HE H ON OR AB LE C LA RK W AD DO UP S

J ul y 3 1, 2 01 4

K ar en M ur ak am i, C SR , R PR8 . 43 0 U . S. C o ur t ho u se3 51 S ou th W es t T em pl e

S al t L ak e C it y, U ta h 8 41 01Telephone: 801-328-4800


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A P PE A RA N CE S O F C O UN S EL :

F or t he P la in ti ff : J ES SE C . T RE NT AD UE

A tt or ne y a t L awS ui te 2 008 E as t B ro ad wa yS al t L ak e C it y, U ta h 8 41 11

F or t he D ef en da nt s: K AT HR YN L . W Y ERA s si s ta n t U . S. A t to r ne yUSDOJCivil Division-Federal ProgramsBranchR oo m 7 12 42 0 M a ss a ch u se t ts A v en u eW a sh i ng t on , D . C. 2 0 53 0

A DA M C . S IP LEA s si s ta n t U . S. A t to r ne yUSDOJCivil Division-Federal ProgramsBranchR oo m 6 10 9

2 0 M a ss a ch u se t ts A v en u eW a sh i ng t on , D . C. 2 0 53 0


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I N D E X

WITNESS EXAMINATION PAGE

Charles Hanger Direct By 588M r. S ip leCross By 602M r . T r en t ad u eRedirect By 607M r. S ip le

Richard Williams Direct By 610M r. S ip leCross By 624M r . T r en t ad u e

Stephen Brannan Direct By 628M r. S ip leCross By 645M r . T r en t ad u eRedirect By 650M r. S ip leRecross By 651M r . T r en t ad u eFurther Redirect By 655M r. S ip leFurther Recross By 658

M r . T r en t ad u e

Walter Lamar Direct By 660M r. S ip leCross By 677M r . T r en t ad u eRedirect By 685M r. S ip le

Jon Hersley Direct By 693M r. S ip leCross By 710

M r . T r en t ad u eRedirect By 723M r. S ip le

Larry Tongate Direct By 729M r. S ip leCross By 736M r . T r en t ad u e


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E X HI B IT S R E CE I VE D I N TO E V ID E NC E

EXHIBIT PAGE

Defendant's 251Plaintiff's 38Defendant's 252


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S al t L ak e C it y, U ta h, T hu rs da y, J ul y 3 1, 2 01 4

* * *

TH E C OU RT : W e' re ba ck i n s es si on in

T re nt ad ue v . T he F BI . C ou ns el a nd p ar ti es a re p re se nt .

T he F BI i s p ro ce ed in g w it h it s r eb ut ta l c as e. Y ou m ay

proceed.

MR. SIPLE: Yes , Your Honor. Before I d o, I

j us t w an t t o r ai se a p re li mi na ry m at te r. A s y ou r ec al l,

t he c ou rt a sk ed u s t o l oo k i nt o a n a ll eg at io n w it h

r es pe ct t o M r . T r en ta du e' s w it ne ss , J oh n M at th ew s . A nd

b as ed o n w ha t l it tl e i nf or ma ti on w e h ad a va il ab le a t t he

t im e, w e c on ta ct ed t he F BI 's D iv is io n O ff ic e i n L as

V eg as , w hi ch i s t he r el ev an t o ff ic e f or - - w ou ld b e t he

r el ev an t o ff ic er f or t he R en o, N ev ad a a re a w he re w e

u nd er st an d M r. M at th ew s w as s ch ed ul ed t o t es ti fy . W e

c o nt a ct e d t h e A s so c ia t e C h ie f C o un s el t h er e ,

c om mu ni ca te d t o t he m t he c ou rt ' s i ns tr uc ti on s a nd w ha t

w e k ne w o f t he a ll eg at io n. T he A ss oc ia te C hi ef C ou ns el

h as b ee n l oo ki ng i nt o i t, a nd w e g ot i nf or ma ti on b ac k

f ro m t he ir o ff ic e t ha t t he re h ad b ee n n o c on ta ct w it h

M r . J o hn M a tt h ew s .

H ow ev er , I a ls o a pp ro ac he d M r. T re nt ad ue a nd

a sk ed h im i f h e c ou ld p ro vi de u s a ny a dd it io na l

i nf or ma ti on t ha t m ig ht h el p u s t ra ck t hi s d ow n. T hi s

m or ni ng h e d i d p ro vi de u s w it h a dd it io na l i nf or ma ti on


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c on ce rn in g h e b el ie ve d t ha t t he f ie ld o ff ic e h er e i n

S al t L ak e t ha t w as p ot en ti al ly i nv ol ve d. W e h av e

i ni ti at ed c on ta ct w it h t he m. H e a ls o p ro vi de d u s w it h

M r. M at th ew s' i nf or ma ti on s o t ha t w e c ou ld h av e t ha t

information a s well. So we are -- we just got this

i nf or ma ti on , b ut w e' re a ct in g o n i t a nd c on ti nu in g t o

l oo k i nt o i t.

TH E C OU RT : T ha nk y ou .

M r. T re nt ad ue , a ny th in g i n r es po ns e t o t ha t ?

M R. T RE NT AD UE : N o, s ir . T ha t' s ac cu ra te .

THE COURT: Thank you. The FBI may proceed

w it h i ts f ir st w it ne ss .

M R. SI PL E: Y ou r H o no r, t he F BI w ou ld l ik e

t o c al l S he ri ff C ha rl ey H an ge r.

THE CLERK: Sir , c an you see and hear me ?

TH E W IT NE SS : Y es, I c an h ea r y ou .

THE CLERK: Can you se e m e?

TH E WIT NE SS : Y es.

C H AR L ES H A N GE R ,

c al le d a s a w it ne ss a t t he r eq ue st o f t he D ef en da nt ,

h av in g b ee n f ir st d ul y s wo rn , w as e xa mi ne d

a nd t es ti fi ed a s f ol lo ws :

M R. T RE NT AD UE : Y ou r H o no r, b ef or e w e

p ro ce ed , I w ou ld j us t l ik e t o l od ge a n o bj ec ti on a t t he

b eg in ni ng . I d on 't t hi nk - - t o t he e xt en t t hi s


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t es ti mo ny g oe s t o t he e xi st en ce o r n on ex is te nc e o f

p or ti on s o f t he a ct ua l v id eo ta pe s, I t hi nk i t' s

i rr el ev an t. I t hi nk i t a ls o p o se s a s er io us d ue p ro ce ss

p ro bl em f or m e i n t he s en se I h av e n o d is co ve ry, no --

n ot hi ng t o r ef ut e M r. H an ge r' s t es ti mo ny . T ha nk y ou ,

sir.

TH E C OU RT : T he o bj ect io n i s o ve rr ul ed. Y ou

c an a rg ue t he s ig ni fi ca nc e o f t hi s l at er .

Y ou m ay p ro ce ed .

M R. S IP LE : T ha nk y ou , Y o ur H on or .

M R. T RE NT AD UE : F ir st o f a l l , c l ar if ic at io n ,

Y ou r H on or , t he g ov er nm en t i ns is te d t ha t m y w it ne ss e s b y

v i de o co n fe r en c e t e st i fy a t a c e rt i fi e d c o ur t r e po r te r 's

o ff ic e. W he re i s M r. H an ge r t es ti fy in g f ro m?

M R. SI PL E: I d on' t r ec al l t ha t w e i ns is te d

o n a c er ti fi ed c ou rt r ep or te r' s o ff ic e. W e d id o bj ec t

t o t he r em ot e t es ti mo ny , b ut w e u nd er st an d t he c ou rt

o ve rr ul ed t ha t a nd a ll ow ed a nd a ct ua ll y i ss ue d a n o rd er

s ay in g t he w it ne ss es m ay t es ti fy r em ot el y.

THE COURT: I th ink if you would just

e st ab li sh w he re t he w it ne ss i s a nd w ho i s p re se nt d ur in g

t h e t e st i mo n y.

M R. SI PL E: I 'l l d o t ha t, Y ou r H o nor .

TH E CO UR T: O ka y.

//


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D I R E C T E X A M IN A T I O N

BY R. SIPLE:

Q. S he ri ff H an ge r, w he re a re y ou t es ti fy in g f ro m

today?

A. F ro m t he U .S . A tt or ne y' s O ff ic e i n O kl ah om a C it y,

Oklahoma.

Q. O ka y, an d i s t he re a ny on e w it h y o u i n t ha t r oo m?

A. No , ju st m ys el f.

TH E C OU RT : M r. S ipl e, w e f ai le d t o as k t he

w it ne ss t o i de nt if y h im se lf b y n am e a nd h av e h im s pe ll

h is n am e.

M R. SI PL E: Y es , Y ou r H on or .

Q. ( By M r. S ip le ) S he ri ff H an ge r, c ou ld y ou p le as e

i de nt if y y ou rs el f a nd s pe ll y ou r f ir st a nd l as t n am e f or

t h e r e co r d.

A. My n am e i s C ha rl es H an ge r; fi rs t n a me

C - h- a -r - l- e -s ; H a ng e r i s s p el l e d H - a- n -g - e- r .

Q. And just to clarify, are yo u alone in the room

t h at y o u' r e t e st i fy i ng f r om ?

A. Yes, I 'm alone in this room .

Q. Do you have any documents with you in the room

today?

A. Yes. I have two pages from my transcript from my

t es ti mo ny i n t he M cV ei gh t ri al t ha t w as c on du ct ed i n

D en ve r, C ol or ad o, A pr il 2 8, 1 99 7, a nd I h av e a c op y o f


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a n e xh ib it t ha t w as e -m ai le d t o m e f ro m t hi s t ri al , I

a ss um e, E xh ib it N um be r 6 8.

MR. SIPLE: I wo uld like to let the record

r ef le ct t ha t' s t he t ra ns cr ip t t ha t i s m ar ke d h er e a s

d ef en da nt ' s e xh ib it - - j us t f or i de nt if ic at io n a t t hi s

p oi nt , D ef en da nt s E xh ib it 2 5 0, a nd I 'l l p ro vi de t o t he

c ou rt c op ie s a nd M r. T re nt ad ue .

Q. (B y M r. S ip le ) S he ri ff Ha ng er , w he re d o y ou

currently reside?

A. P er ry , Ok la ho ma .

Q. A re y ou c ur re nt ly e mp lo ye d?

A. Yes.

Q. H ow a re y ou c ur re nt ly e mp lo ye d?

A. I 'm t he S he ri ff o f N o bl e C o un ty , O k la ho ma .

Q. P ri or t o b e co mi ng t he S he ri ff o f N o be l C o un ty ,

O k la h om a , w e re y o u e m pl o ye d e l se w he r e?

A. I w as e mp lo ye d b y t he O kl ah om a H i gh wa y P at ro l.

Q. A nd h ow l on g w er e y ou w it h th e O kl ah om a H i gh wa y

Patrol?

A. A li tt le ov er 2 8 a nd -a- ha lf y ea rs .

Q. Okay. And so when -- do you remember the year

t ha t y ou s ta rt ed ?

A. I s tarted i n 1 976.

Q. Okay. When did you -- did you retire from the

O k la h om a H i gh w ay P a tr o l?


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A. Y es , I r et ir ed o n J an ua ry 3 rd , 2 00 5.

Q. Thank you . Could you t ell the court w hat did

y o ur r e sp o ns i bi l it i es w i th t h e O k la h om a H i gh w ay P a tr o l

c o ns i st o f ?

A. I wa s a r oa d t ro op er , a ss ig ne d t o N ob el C ou nt y.

I w or ke d I nt er st at e 3 5 i n N ob el a nd P ay ne C ou nt ie s, a nd

t he s ec on da ry r oa ds i n N ob el C ou nt y e nf or ci ng a ll t h e

l aw s o f t h e S ta te o f O kl ah om a, i nv es ti ga ti ng t ra ff ic

c o ll i si o n s, a n d a s si s ti n g t h e m o to r in g p u bl i c.

Q. I would like to call your attention to the

m or ni ng o f A pr il 1 9, 1 99 5, t he m or ni ng o f t he O kl ah om a

C it y b om bi ng , w er e y ou o n d ut y t ha t m or ni ng , d o y ou

recall?

A. Yes, I was. I worked the day shift that day.

Q. W he n d id yo ur d ay s hif t s ta rt ?

A. At 7:00 a.m.

Q. A nd w ha t sp ec if ic al ly w er e yo u d oi ng t ha t d ay a s

p ar t o f y ou r s hi ft ?

A. T ha t p a rt ic ul ar d ay I s ta rt ed m y t ra ff ic p at ro l

g oi ng e as t o f P er ry , w hi ch i s t he c ou nt y s ea t o f N ob el

C ou nt y. I w as w or ki ng r ad ar t ra ve li ng e as t e ar ly t ha t

morning.

Q. D id y ou m ak e a ny s to ps th at m or ni ng ?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. How many stops did y ou make ?


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A. I m ad e t hr ee s to ps t ha t m o rni ng .

Q. And di d a ny of these stops lead to an arrest?

A. Yes.

Q. Do y ou r ec al l t hi s a rr es t?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. C ou ld y ou e xp la in - - p le as e d es cr ib e t h e a rr es t

y ou m ad e o n t he mo rn in g o f A pr il 1 9, 1 99 5.

A. S ho rt ly b ef or e 1 0: 20 t ha t m or ni ng I w as t ra ve li ng

n or th bo un d o n I nt er st at e 3 5 a nd I w as i n t he l ef t l an e.

W it hi n a bo ut a m il e f ro m w he re I w as g et ti ng r ea dy t o

e xi t o ff, as I p as se d b y an o ld y el lo w M er cu ry I

o bs er ve d t he re w as n o t ag o n t he r ea r o f t ha t v eh ic le ,

s o I a ff ec te d a t ra ff ic s to p a nd s to pp ed t ha t v eh ic le .

Q. What did you do next?

A. U po n c om in g i n c on ta ct wi th t he d ri ver ,

e xp la in in g t o h im w hy h e h ad b ee n s to pp ed , a nd w hi le h e

w as r et ri ev in g h is d ri ve r' s l ic en se f ro m h is r ig ht r ea r

p oc ke t, I n ot ic ed a b ul ge u nd er a w in db re ak er - ty pe

j ac ket he w as w ea ri ng t ha t I t ho ug ht w as a w ea pon , s o I

i ns tr uc te d h im t o s lo wl y u se b ot h h an ds , u nz ip t ha t

j ac ke t, a nd s lo wl y p ul l i t b ac k.

An d as h e s ta rt ed t o p ul l i t b ack , h e l oo ke d

at me and said I have a weapon.

I t he n g ra bb ed t he b ul ge o n t he o ut si de o f

h is j ac ke t, s pu n h im a ro un d, a nd t ol d h im t o ge t h is


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hands up. I drew my weapon , then asked him t o walk to

t he t ru nk of hi s c ar w he re I t oo k hi m i nt o c us to dy.

Q. W he n y o u sa y " to ok h im in to c us to dy ," w ou ld y ou

p le as e d es cr ib e w ha t y ou d id t o p ut h im i nt o c us to dy ?

A. When w e g ot to the trunk of the car, I pulled his

j ac ket b ac k, I s aw a p is to l in w ha t I c al l a s ui ci de

h ol st er , w he re t he b ar re l i s p oi nt in g u p t o t he a rm pi t.

I r em ov ed t ha t p is to l f ro m t ha t h ol st er , t hr ew i t t o t he

s ho ul de r o f t he r oa dw ay .

T hi s i nd iv id ua l , T i m M cV ei gh , a t t ha t t im e

s ai d, I a ls o h av e a no th er m ag az in e f or t ha t w ea po n i n m y

jacket.

I p ul le d i t b ac k, f ou nd t he m ag az in e, t hr ew

t ha t t o t he s ho ul de r o f t he r oa dw ay .

H e t he n s ta te d I a ls o h ave a k ni fe u nd er m y

j ac ke t, i n w hi ch I p ul le d b ac k a nd l oc at ed t he k ni fe a nd

t hr ew i t t o t he sh ou ld er of t he r oa dw ay . I t he n

h an dc uf fe d h im , p at te d h im d ow n a ga in t o s ee i f h e h ad

any other weapons. He did not. And he was p laced i n

t he f ro nt s ea t o f m y p at ro l c ar a nd s ea t- be lt ed i n.

Q. D ur ing y ou r - - i n a n sw er t o t h at q ue st io n y ou

i de nt if ie d t h e s us pe ct a s T i m M cV ei gh . I s t ha t T im

M cV ei gh w h o w as u lt im at el y c on vi ct ed o f t he O kl ah om a

C i ty b o mb i ng ?

A. Yes, that is the same perso n.


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Q. A nd y ou m en ti on ed t he w ea po ns . T he re w er e k ni ve s

a nd a g un . W er e t he re a ny o th er i te ms ?

A. T her e wa s a n e xt ra m ag az in e f or t he w ea pon , t he

w ea po n i ts el f , a nd t he k ni fe .

Q. D id y ou t ak e c us to dy of t he se i te ms ?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. S he ri ff H an ge r, w as t he re a ny r ec or di ng e qu ip me nt

o n y ou r c ar , a v id eo r ec or de r t ha t c ou ld c ap tu re t he

s ce ne o f t he s to p?

A. T her e wa s a d as h- cam i ns ta ll ed i n m y u n it .

Q. A nd d id y ou o pe ra te t ha t d a sh -c am d ur in g y o ur

s to p o f M r. M cV ei gh ?

A. At one point I did, yes, I turned it on. After

h e w as in c us tod y a nd s it ti ng i n t he f ro nt s ea t o f m y

c ar , I w as p re pa ri ng t o r ea d h im h is Miranda w a rn i ng , I

w an te d t o c ap tu re t ha t o n t he a ud io , a nd s o t ha t' s w he n

I t ur ne d t he v id eo ca me ra o n.

Q. I h av e t o a sk y ou , S he ri ff Ha ng er , w hy d id n' t y o u

t ur n t he c am er a o n w he n y ou i ni ti at ed t he s to p?

A. I had only had the ca mera a couple of months,

m ay be b ei ng o ld s ch oo l I w as n' t s ur e t ha t I e ve n l ik ed

having that camera in the c ar. I thought it was a good

t hi ng f or D UI a rr es ts , t hi ng s w he re y ou n ee d t o c ap tu re

e rr at ic d ri vi ng m ov em en ts a n d t he i ns ta bi li ty o f a d ru nk

d ri ve r p ri or t o h is a rr es t s o y ou c ou ld d oc um en t h is


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l ev el o f i nt ox ic at io n. B ut f or a s im pl e t ra ff ic s to p I

d id n' t f ee l l ik e i t h ad a ny e vi de nt ia ry p ur po se .

Q. D id t he - - s o i f I 'm u nd er sta nd in g y ou r

t es ti mo ny , T im M cV ei gh w as a lr ea dy i n t he c ar w he n y ou

i ni ti at ed t he r ec or di ng , i s t ha t c or re ct , i n y ou r p at ro l

car?

A. That i s c orrect, yes . He w as sitting in the

f ro nt s ea t o f m y p at ro l c ar n ex t t o m e.

Q. D id t he v id eo - - a c tu al ly l et m e s t op t he re.

D id y ou h av e a ny s ou nd s y ou c ap tu re d o f T im

M cV ei gh , a ny c on ve rs at io n, o n t ha t t ap e?

A. E ve n t ho ug h t h at 's w ha t I w as a tt em pt in g t o d o, I

h it t he w ro ng t wo b ut to ns a nd I d id n ot g et a ny s ou nd.

I d id g et v id eo f ro m t he c am er a p oi nt in g f or wa rd

c ap tu ri ng t he c ar i ts el f a nd a t o ne p oi nt m e w al ki ng

a bo ut t he c ar r ec or di ng i nf or ma ti on f ro m t he v eh ic le

i de nt if ic at io n n um be r a nd s ea rc hi ng t he c ar , b ut , n o ,

t he re w as n o s ou nd w ha ts oe ve r.

Q. And of th e v ideo that y ou did record, you

m en ti on ed t ha t y ou 'r e i n t he v id eo , i s t ha t r ig ht , a t

certain points?

A. Yes, I am.

Q. A re t he re a ny o th er i nd iv id ua ls c ap tu re d i n t h at

v id eo d ur in g t he s to p a nd a rr es t t ha t y ou r ec or de d?

A. N o, o th er t ha n t he t ra ff ic m ov in g n or th bo un d o n


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the interstate.

Q. Do you recall -- I just want to make this clear,

d id y ou h av e a n o pp or tu ni ty t o r ev ie w t he t ap e t ha t y ou

r e co r de d w i th y o ur d a sh b oa r d c a me r a?

A. Yes, I reviewed it. I don't recall if it was the

2 1s t o r t he 2 2n d o f A pr il 1 99 5 t he f ir st t im e I re vi ew ed

i t. A nd I h ad b ee n p r ov id ed a c op y o f t ha t s om et im e

b ac k s ev er al y ea rs a go , I c ou ld n' t t el l y ou e xa ct ly

w he n, a nd I h av e r ev ie we d t ha t c op y a s w el l.

Q. D id t he t ap e t ha t y ou r ec or de d c ap tur e a pi ck up

t ru ck o f an y k ind i n t he v ic in it y of t hi s s to p?

A. No.

Q. T her e wa s n o p ic ku p t r uc k p ul le d o v er t o t he s ide

o f t he r oa d o r t he s ho ul de r o r a ny th in g l ik e t ha t?

A. T her e w as n ot hi ng on t he v id eo - - t he v id eo

s ho wi ng a ny p ic ku p t ru ck , n or d o I r ec al l s ee in g o ne .

Q. S he ri ff H an ge r, d id yo u t es ti fy i n t he

p ro se cu ti on t ri al o f T im M cV ei gh ?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Do you recall whether or no t - - have y ou had an

o pp or tu ni ty t o r ev ie w t he t es ti mo ny t ha t y ou p ro vi de d i n

t h at t r ia l ?

A. Part o f it, y es.

Q. And h ow w as t hat?

A. By r ev ie wi ng t he c opi es of th e t ra nsc ri pt t ha t I


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h av e i n m y p os se ss io n.

Q. Do you have a copy of -- to be clear, you have a

c op y o f t he - - y ou r o wn c op y o f t he t ra ns cr ip t t ha t yo u

g av e o f t he t es ti mo ny y ou g av e i n t he M cV ei gh t ri al ?

A. I do have my own copy, yes.

Q. And if I could have you look -- and did y ou bring

c op ie s o f t ha t t ra ns cr ip t w it h y ou t od ay ?

A. I brought two pages, page 3 3 and 34, from that

transcript.

Q. W hy d id y ou b ri ng t hos e p ag es ?

A. T hos e ar e t he o ne s r eg ar di ng m y t es ti mo ny of th e

video.

Q. So y ou t es ti fi ed a bo ut th e vi de o t h at y ou

r ec or de d i n t he M cV ei gh t ri al ; i s t ha t c or re ct ?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. And I just want to b e c lear because I don 't

s pe ci fi ca ll y r em em be r, w as t he M cV ei gh t ri al a p ub li c

p ro ce ed in g, w as i t o pe n t o t he p ub li c, t ha t p ro se cu ti on

trial?

A. I believe it was, yes.

Q. If I c ou ld c al l y ou r a tt en ti on t o t h e f i rs t p ag e

h er e o n t he s cr ee n, a nd t hi s i s a t t hi s p oi nt m ar ke d a s

D ef en da nt 's E xh ib it 2 50 . A nd j us t t o m ak e s ur e w e' re

t al ki ng a bo ut t he s am e t hi ng , i t s ta rt s - - i t' s g ot a

5 25 5 i n t he t op l ef t c or ne r?


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A. Yes, I have that copy here before me.

Q. And there 's a number 33 on the bottom of the

page?

A. Y es , th at i s c o rre ct .

Q. Okay. And if we could just go down, I would like

y ou t o r ea d f ro m t hi s t ra ns cr ip t s ta rt in g a t l in e 1 7.

A. Q ue st io n, P ri or t o t he in te rv ie w d id y ou ta ke a ny

s te ps t o t ry t o r ec or d t he c on ve rs at io n y ou w er e h av in g

w i th D e fe n da n t M c Ve i gh ?

A ns we r, Y es , I d id .

Q ue st io n, W er e y ou a bl e t o r ec or d?

A n sw e r, N o .

Q u es t io n , W h y n o t?

An sw er , I h it t he w ro ng t wo b ut to ns o n m y

videocamera.

Q ue st io n, I n y ou r u ni t ?

A n sw e r, Y e s.

Q. T ha nk y ou , S he ri ff H a ng er .

No w, i f w e c ou ld t ur n to t he s ec on d p ag e o f

t he t ra ns cr ip t t ha t y ou b ro ug ht w it h y ou , a nd i f w e

could go down to line 15, a nd i f I could have you read

from lines 15 to 21 -- I'm sorry 1 5 to 25.

A. Q ue st io n, A nd t he v ide o is th e c am er a t ha t

r e co r ds w h at ?

A ns we r, I t r ec or ds a ny th in g i n f ro nt o f t he


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c am er a i ts el f, w hi ch m ou nt s o n t he d as h a nd i s p oi nt ed

f or wa rd t o t he f ro nt o f t he u ni t, o r a ny th in g i n f ro nt

o f t he c am er a i t w il l r ec or d i n a v id eo p ic tu re .

Q ue st io n, A nd , a cc or di ng ly , d id t hi s v id eo

p i ct u re r e co r d a n yt h in g r e la t in g t o D e fe n da n t M c Ve i gh ' s

person?

A n sw e r, N o .

Q ue st io n, W ha t d id i t r ec or d?

A ns we r, I t r ec or de d t he u ni t, t he c ar h e w as

d ri vi ng , a nd m ys el f a s I w as w al ki ng a bo ut .

Q. T ha nk y ou , S he ri ff H a ng er .

A. Y ou 'r e w el co me .

M R. SI PL E: A t t hi s t im e, Y ou r H on or , I

w ou ld m ov e t o a dm it w ha t' s m ar ke d D ef en da nt 's

E xh ib it 2 5 0 i nt o e vi de nc e.

M R. T RE NT AD UE : O bj ec ti on , i t' s c um ul at iv e,

Y ou r H on or . T he w it ne ss h as a lr ea dy t es ti fi ed t o t hi s.

THE COURT: Is there a reason to have an y o f

t he a dd it io na l i nf or ma ti on f ro m t h e t ra ns cr ip t i n t h e

r ec or d b ey on d w ha t h e' s r ea d?

M R. S IP LE : I t' s wi th dr aw n, Y ou r Ho no r. I

t hi nk i t s ta nd s f or i ts el f a ct ua ll y.


MR. SIPLE: I wo uld like to -- if we could

c al l u p P la in ti ff 's E xh ib it N um be r 6 8.


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Q. (B y M r. Siple) And a re you able to see this

e xh ib it o n t he s cr ee n i n f ro nt o f y ou , S he ri ff H an ge r?

A. Yes, I can see it, and I have it before me as

well.

Q. So j us t t o b e c l ea r, t he e xh ib it t ha t y ou 're

s ee in g o n t he s cr ee n i s t he d oc um en t t ha t y ou h av e i n

f ro nt o f y ou ?

A. Yes, i t's one in the same.

Q. Okay. If you could just take a moment and review

t hi s a nd j us t l et m e k no w w he n y ou 'v e h ad e no ug h

o pp or tu ni ty t o r ea d i t.

A. I' ve r ev ie we d it .

Q. A nd , S h er if f H an ge r, c an I as k y ou , h av ing

r ev ie we d t hi s, d o y ou r ec al l g iv in g a n i nt er vi ew t o t he

F BI r eg ar di ng y ou r s to p?

A. I r em em be r t al ki ng t o a n a ge nt , I c ou ld n' t h av e

t ol d y ou h is n am e.

Q. Does this FBI document in any way give you an y

r ea so n t o s ec on d -g ue ss t he t es ti mo ny t ha t y ou ' ve g iv en

r eg ar di ng t he r ec or di ng i n y ou r c a r?

A. No, i t does n ot.

Q. And if I could just ask you on this, with respect

t o t he o bj ec t o n t he g ro un d, i f y ou c ou ld c om me nt o n

t ha t, i t' s t he l as t l in e t he re , w he re i t' s r ep or ti ng o f

a n o bj ec t o n t he g ro un d.


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A. I w ou ld h av e t o a ss um e t ha t t he o bj ect s s ee n o n

t he g ro un d w as t he i te ms I t oo k o ff M cV ei gh 's p er so n,

t he w ea po n, t he G lo ck . 45 c al ib er p is to l, t he k ni fe , a nd

t he m ag az in e a s w el l, a ll t hr ee o f t ho se i te ms w er e

t hr ow n t o t he g ro un d a ft er I f ou nd t he m.

Q. D id y ou r et ri ev e t he m f r om th e g ro un d?

A. I did at one point, yes.

Q. O ka y. D id y ou t a ke t h em i n to y o ur p o ss ess io n?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. A nd d id y ou - - w er e t hey t ur ne d i nt o e v id en ce ?

A. Yes, t hey w ere.

M R. S IP LE : O ka y. T ha nk y ou , Sh er if f

Hanger.

A nd w e c an t ak e d ow n t he e xh ib it .

T HE W IT NE SS : Y ou 'r e w e lc om e.

T H E C O UR T : C r os s -e x am i na t io n ?

M R. SI PL E: A ct ua ll y, I h av e a f ew m or e

questions.

TH E C OU RT : G o r ig ht a he ad .

Q. (B y M r . S i pl e) S he ri ff Ha ng er , i f I c oul d a sk

y ou , s o y ou r ec or de d t h e t a pe. W ha t d i d y o u d o wi th t he

t ap e f ro m y ou r d as hb oa rd c am t ha t w as r ec or de d, t ha t

r ec or de d y ou r s to p o f M cV ei gh ?

A. I turn ed it over to a federal agent.

Q. How d id y ou do that?


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A. I delivered it in person , I took it from where I

h ad it at my h ome t o O kl ah om a C it y.

Q. W he re s pe ci fi ca ll y i n O kl ah om a C it y?

A. It was at the command post.

Q. And --

A. I do n' t r ec al l t he a ddr es s.

Q. W as t hi s th e c om ma nd p os t f o r t he O kl ah om a C it y

bombing investigation?

A. Yes. It was just days after t he bombing.

Q. Can I ask you, Sheriff Hanger, have you h ad a n

o pp or tu ni ty s in ce t hi s a rr es t a nd r ec or di ng t hi s v id eo

t o v ie w t he v id eo o n o th er o cc as io ns ?

A. I ha d r ev ie we d p a rt o f t he vi de o u p on r ece iv in g a

c op y. I r ev iew ed t he a ct ua l v id eo j us t d ay s a ft er t he

a rr es t o f M cV ei gh , i t w ou ld e it he r h av e b ee n t he F ri da y

o r S at ur da y, w hi ch w ou ld h av e b ee n t he 2 1s t o r 2 2n d o f

A p ri l 1 9 95 .

Q. H av e y ou ha d a n o ppo rt un it y t o l oo k a t t he v id eo

a ny t im e m or e r ec en tl y?

A. Y es , a ft er I r ec ei ve d a c op y I h ad w at ch ed t ha t

v id eo. A nd I a ls o s e en i t o n t el ev is io n.

MR. SIPLE: If I can ask if we could pull up

P la in ti ff ' s E xh ib it 1 , w hi ch i s i de nt if ie d a s t he H an ge r

v i de o , P l ai n ti f f' s E x hi b it 1 .

S he ri ff H an ge r, I w ou ld a sk y ou t o w at ch


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t hi s v id eo w e'r e a bo ut t o p la y. W e' re j us t g oi ng t o

p la y p or ti on s o f i t, a ce rt ai n a mo un t o f i t. I w ou ld

j us t li ke to ge t y ou r c om men ts a ft er . I f w e c ou ld p la y

t h e v i de o .

( V id e o b e in g p l ay e d. )

MR. SIPLE: You can stop at about two

m in ut es . We ca n g o a he ad a nd s to p a nd p au se th e v id eo

a t t hi s p oi nt .

Q. (B y M r . S i pl e) D id y ou ha ve a n o p po rt uni ty t o

l oo k a t t he v id eo j us t n ow , S he ri ff H an ge r?

A. Yes.

Q. Does that appear to be the video that you took

f ro m y ou r p at ro l c ar d as h- ca m?

A. Yes, it is.

MR. S IPLE: Thank y ou, Y our H onor . No

further questions.


M R. TR EN TA DU E: Y es , s ir , j us t v er y b ri ef I

think.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY R. T RENTADUE:

Q. G oo d mo rn in g S he ri ff H an ge r. C an y o u h ea r me

okay?

A. Good morning. A little l ow .

Q. S ir , w er e y o u s ay in g s o me th in g?


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A. I said th e v olume was a little low.

Q. I'll try to speak up.

A. Thank you .

Q. W he n w er e y ou f ir st c on ta ct ed a bo ut t es ti fy in g

h e re t o da y ?

A. Oh , i t w as probably within the last two weeks . I

d on 't k no w t he e xa ct d at e.

Q. So it was at least t wo weeks ago?

A. I 'm e st im at in g w i th in t he l as t t w o w ee ks .

Q. C er ta in ly n ot d ur in g t h is w ee k.

A. The first time was n ot this week, no.

Q. W er e y ou to ld t ha t y ou we re g oi ng t o t es ti fy at

t h e t r ia l ?

A. S ir , y o ur v ol um e i s ge tti ng l ow a ga in.

Q. W he n y ou we re f ir st c on ta ct ed w er e y ou t ol d t ha t

y ou w er e g oi ng t o t es ti fy a t t ri al ?

A. I was told there was a possibility I mig ht

testify.

Q. W ho c on ta ct ed y ou ?

A. I wa s o ri gi na ll y c on ta ct ed by a r et ir ed

g en tl em an , h e w or ke d f or t he F BI , t he l as t n am e M ay br y,

a nd he a ske d me to c al l M r. S ip le .

Q. And have you met with anyon e t o prepare t o

t e st i fy h e re t o da y ?

A. I have no t m et with anyone.


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Q. H av e y ou ta lk ed o ve r t he p ho ne w it h a ny one a bo ut

y ou r t es ti mo ny h er e t od ay ?

A. Yes, I h ave.

Q. Who di d y ou speak with?

A. Yes, s ir. I s poke t o M r. A dam S iple.

Q. When w as that, s ir?

A. I' ve t al ked t o h i m o n a c oup le o f o c ca si on s, m ost

r e ce n tl y l a st n i gh t .

Q. W ha t w as th e f ir st o cc as io n t ha t y ou r ec al l?

A. He was asking me if I recalled the arrest and if

I h ad c op ie s of my t ra ns cr ip t. T he y w er e v er y b ri ef

questions.

Q. W he n d id Mr . S i pl e f ir st c on ta ct y ou ?

A. S ho rt ly a ft er I t al ke d t o M r. M ay br y, w it hi n th e

l as t c ou pl e o f w ee ks .

Q. Do y ou k no w w he th er t he re' s a n i nt er co m s ys te m i n

t he r oo m?

A. C an y o u s pe ak u p, p le ase ?

Q. Do y ou k no w w he th er o r no t th er e' s a n i nt er co m

s ys te m i n t he r oo m f ro m w hi ch y ou ' re t es ti fy in g?

A. I have no idea. First time I've ever been h ere.

Q. D id y ou a t s o me t im e, s ir, ge t b a ck t he o ri gi na l

v id eo ta pe o f t he M cV ei gh s to p?

A. I did not.

Q. If I could, sir, I would like to show you --


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f ir st o f al l, y ou h av e Ex hi bi t 68 in f ro nt of y ou , d on 't

y ou , s ir ?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. W he n y ou re ad d ow n t he re , t he s ec on d c om pl et e

s en te nc e i n t he l as t p ar ag ra ph , i t s ay s, W he n a sk ed

a bo ut t he p os si bi li ty o f a p ic k up t ru ck t ra ve li ng i n

t an de m w it h t he M cV ei gh v eh ic le , H an ge r r es po nd ed h e h ad

n o r ec ol le ct io n o f a ny s uc h v eh ic le . D o y ou r em em be r

b ei ng a sk ed a bo ut t ha t, s ir ?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. D id t he y t el l y o u f ro m w h er e t h at i nf or ma ti on

came?

A. No, t hey did n ot.

Q. D id t he y s ee m p ar ti cu la rl y i nt er es te d i n a b ro wn

p i ck u p t r uc k ?

A. T he b es t of m y r ec ol le ct io n, t he re w as m en ti on o f

a b ro wn p ic ku p t ru ck .

Q. D id t he y te ll y ou t ha t t ha t p e rs on w as a s us pe ct

i n t he b om bi ng a lo ng w it h M cV ei gh ?

A. No, t hey did n ot.

Q. If --

A. I was -- the morning of the arrest I w as sitting

b y m y h ea dq ua rt er s w hi le I w as a t t he c ou nt y j ai l

f in is hi ng t he a rr es t p ap er s, I w as s en t o ut t o t he

i nt er st at e t o l oo k f or a b ro wn p ic ku p t ha t w as p os si bl y


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i nv ol ve d i n t he b om bi ng .

Q. Now, I 'm going to show you Exhibit 10. 39, if I

c an g et i t t o c om e u p h er e, it 's E xh ib it 1 0, p age 3 9.

C an y ou s e e t ha t e xh ib it , S he ri ff H an ge r?

A. I can see it, but I can't read it.

Q. Maybe if I can blow up the parts I want to talk

t o y ou a bo ut . D o y ou r ec al l a H ou st on C hr on ic le a rt ic le

c om in g o ut s ho rt ly i n 1 99 5 a bo ut y ou r a rr es t o f M cV ei gh

i n w hi ch t he y r ef er en ce d a s us pe ct b y t he n am e o f

Colbern?

A. I do n' t r ec al l a ny s uc h a r tic le .

Q. It says, An automatic camer a i n the car o f

T ro op er C ha rl es H an ge r w as t ap in g t he a rr es t o f M cV ei gh .

I n t he b ac kg ro un d w as a n i ma ge o f a p ic ku p t ru ck t ha t

w as p ul le d o ve r w hi le M cV ei gh w as b ei ng q ue st io ne d. Y ou

d on 't r ec al l e ve r s ee in g t ha t a rt ic le .

A. I do not.

Q. N ow , w he n w as t he f irs t t im e y ou a ct ua ll y l ook ed

a t t he a rr es t t ap e, t he d as hb oa rd c am er a t ap e ?

A. L ik e I t es ti fi ed e ar lie r, I b el ie ve it w as e it he r

F ri da y, t he 2 1s t, o r t he - - S at ur da y t he 2 2n d o f

A p ri l 1 9 95 .

M R. TR EN TA DU E: T han k y ou , s ir . N o f ur th er

questions.

T HE C O UR T: A ny r e di re ct ?


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R E D I R EC T E X A M I NA T I O N

BY R. SIPLE:

Q. S he ri ff H an ge r, w er e y ou s ti ll e mp lo ye d w i th t he

O kl ah om a H ig hw ay P at ro l i n 2 00 6 ?

A. I was not.

Q. A nd i s i t y ou r u nd er st an din g t ha t t he t ap e w h en

i t w ou ld b e r et ur ne d, w ou ld i t b e r et ur ne d t o y ou , o r

w ou ld i t g o b ac k t o t he O kl ah om a H ig hw ay P at ro l?

M R. T RE NT AD UE : O bj ec ti on , f ou nd at io n.

TH E W IT NE SS : I w oul d a ss um e t h at it w en t

b ac k t o t h e O kl ah om a H ig hw ay P at ro l.

Q. (B y M r. S ip le ) S he ri ff Ha ng er , d id y ou e ve r g iv e

a n i nt er vi ew o r a ny i nf or ma ti on t o t he H ou st on C hr on ic le

a bo ut y ou r t ap e o r a bo ut y ou r a rr es t?

A. Not t hat I recall.

M R. S IP LE : I h av e n o f ur th er q ue st io ns ,

Y o ur H o no r .

T HE C O UR T: A ny f o ll ow up ?

M R. T R EN TA DU E: N o, s i r.

TH E CO UR T: T ha nk y ou , Sh er if f Ha ng er . We

a pp re ci at e y o u r t e st im on y. Y ou a r e e x cu se d.

T HE W IT NE SS : T ha nk y ou , Y o ur H on or .

M R. TR EN TA DU E: Y ou r H on or , I m ov e t o s tr ik e

t hi s w it ne ss 's t es ti mo ny . T he c ou rt w il l r ec al l t ha t


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t h e g o ve r nm e nt i d en t if i ed t h re e p o te n ti a l r e bu t ta l

w it ne ss es . T he y h ad s po ke n w it h t hi s w it ne ss l on g

b ef or e t ha t t im e, h ad h im i n t he w in gs r ea dy t o s pr in g

h im on me in t his f as hi on .

M R. S IP LE : Y ou r H o no r, w e o nl y i de nt if ie d

c as e- in -c hi ef w it ne ss es . I d on 't b el ie ve w e e ve r

p r of f er e d t h e i d en t if i ca t io n o f r e bu t ta l w i tn e ss e s.

R eb ut ta l d ep en ds o n h ow t he c as e d ev el op s.

M R. T RE NT AD UE : Y ou r H o no r, t he y f i le d a

n ot ic e o f i nt en t t o c al l r eb ut ta l w it ne ss es .

M R. S IP LE : W e h a d o f fe re d t h e O K BO MB a ge nt s

a s a p ro ff er o f c as e- in -c hi ef a nd t ha t w as d en ie d. T he y

w er e n ot o ff ere d a s r eb ut ta l. We th ou gh t w e c ou ld p ut

t he m i n t h e c as e -i n- ch ie f a n d t ha t w as d en ie d .

TH E C OU RT : I 'm g oin g t o d en y t he m ot ion t o

s tr ik e t he t es ti mo ny , a nd a t t h e a pp ro pr ia te t im e y o u

c an a rg ue t he s ig ni fi ca nc e o r w ha t w ei gh t a nd a ny

s ur pr is e y ou b el ie ve o cc ur re d b ec au se o f t he l at e

notification.

T he F BI m ay c al l i ts n ex t w it ne ss .

M R. SI PL E: Y ou r H on or , t h e F B I c a ll s

M r. R ic ha rd W il li am s. I f t he re a re t ec hn ic al

d if fi cu lt ie s w e c ou ld d o t he o th er w it ne ss es f ir st .

TH E CO UR T: L et 's gi ve h im a c ou pl e m or e

moments t o se e if he can get it up .


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THE CLERK: Sir , c an you hear us?

T HE W IT NE SS : B ar el y.

THE CLERK: Is there a way that you can move

down to t he end seat, or can yo u adjust the c amera? We

c an b ar el y s ee y ou .

THE WITNESS: Okay . I a m a bout t hree f eet

f ro m t he c am er a n ow .

THE COURT: We need yo u t o take the seat at

t he e nd o f t he t ab le , w hi ch is t he o ne t ha t's f oc us ed o n

t h e c a me r a.

THE W ITNESS: T he far e nd? Okay.

THE COURT: Now we can see you well.

I f w e c an p la ce t he w it ne ss u nd er o at h.

R I C H A RD W I L L IA M S,




TH E CL ER K: W il l y o u p le as e s a y a n d s p el l

y ou r f ul l n am e f or t he r ec or d.

T HE W IT NE SS : I 'm s or ry , I ' m r ea ll y h av in g

t r ou b le h e ar i ng y o u.

TH E CL ER K: C an y ou p le as e s a y a n d s pe ll


T HE W IT NE SS : R ic ha rd , m id dl e i ni ti al E .,

l a st n a me W i ll i am s , R - i- c -h - a- r -d , W - i- l -l - i- a -m - s.


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TH E CO UR T: M r. W il li am s, I d id n' t h ea r yo u

r es po nd t o t he q ue st io n w he n y ou w er e p la ce d u nd er o at h,

d id y ou s ay, ye s, t ha t y ou a gr ee t o b e u nd er o ath ?

THE WITNESS: I said I do, Y our H onor. I

s ai d I do , y es, si r.



BY R. SIPLE:

Q. G oo d mo rn in g M r. W i ll ia ms. C an y o u h ea r m e ok ay ?

A. G oo d m or ni ng .

Q. Can y ou h ear m e?

A. B ar ely . St il l ha vi ng tr ou bl e.

Q. I 'l l t r y t o s p ea k d ir ec tl y i nt o t he m ic ro ph on e.

A. T ha t s ou nd s a l it tl e b e tte r.

Q. F irs t of al l, M r. W il li am s, w he re a re y ou

t e st i fy i ng f r om t o da y ?

A. I 'm i n t h e U .S . A t to rn ey 's O ff ic e i n H ou st on ,

Texas.

Q. Do you have any -- i s t here anyone in the room

w it h y ou t he re ?

A. No, sir.

Q. Do you have any papers or notes or anything o f

t ha t k in d w it h y ou ?

A. I do not.

Q. M r. W il li am s, w he re d o y ou c ur re nt ly r es id e?


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A. I c ur re nt ly l iv e i n M on tg om er y, T ex as .

Q. H ow l on g h av e y o u l iv ed i n M o nt go me ry , T e xa s?

A. Nine years.

Q. P ri or t o r e si di ng i n M o nt go me ry , w h er e d i d y o u

reside?

A. O kl ah om a C it y, O k la ho ma .

Q. A re y ou c ur re nt ly e mp lo ye d?

A. I am not. I'm retired.

Q. W her e d id y ou r et ir e f ro m?

A. I r et ir ed f ro m t h e G e ne ra l S e rv ic es

A d mi n is t ra t io n P u bl i c B u il d in g S e rv i ce .

M R. TR EN TA DU E: Y ou r H on or , I w ou ld r en ew m y

o bj ec ti on t o t hi s w it ne ss , t he s am e o ne I m ad e t o

S he ri ff H an g er , r el ev an ce a n d d ue p ro ce ss .

T HE C OU RT : Y ou r o bj ec ti on i s r ec og ni ze d a nd

overruled.

Y ou m ay p ro ce ed .

Q. (B y M r. S ip le ) W ou ld y ou p le as e e xp la in t o t he

c ou rt w ha t t h e G en er al S er vi ce s A dm in is tr at io n i s .

A. T he G en er al S er vi ce s A dm in is tr at io n, t h e b r a nc h

t ha t I w or ke d f or , w e a re t he l an dl or ds f or t he

g ov er nm en t, w e' re r es po ns ib le f or a ll t he f ed er al

b ui ld in gs a nd c ou rt ho us es i n t h e U ni te d S ta te s,

o p er a ti o ns a n d m a in t en a nc e , c o ns t ru c ti o n a n d r e pa i rs .

Q. Did you work in -- so you were -- did you work


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f or t he G SA w hi le y ou r es id ed i n O kl ah om a C it y?

A. T ha t' s c or re ct , I d id .

Q. A nd , s or ry , G SA , i s t hat a no th er w ay o f r ef er ri ng

t o G e ne r al S e rv i ce s A d mi n is t ra t io n ?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do y ou r em em be r - - w he n d id y ou s ta rt w or ki ng f or

t h e G e ne r al S e rv i ce s A d mi n is t ra t io n ?

A. I started in August of 1976 .

Q. Okay. What w as y our p osition a nd

r e sp o ns i bi l it i es w h en y o u b e ga n ?

A. I w as a m ai nt en an ce m ec ha ni c a n d r es po ns ib le f or

o pe ra ti on s a n d m ai nt en an ce o f t he F ed er al B ui ld in g

C ou rt ho us e a nd t he o ld P os t O ff ic e B ui ld in g a t t ha t

time.

Q. W he re w er e t he se b ui ld in gs l oc at ed ?

A. 2 00 N or th we st F ou rt h a nd 2 00 N or th we st T hi rd .

Q. W as t hi s i n O kl ah om a C it y?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. D id y ou e ve r w or k in t he M ur ra h F ed er al B ui ld in g?

A. I did. I started -- as the building was being

c om pl et ed , a s I s ta rt ed w it h G SA i n A ug us t, w e o pe ne d

t he b ui ld in g i n A pr il o f 1 97 7, a nd I b ec am e t he

p r in c ip a l m a in t en a nc e m e ch a ni c a n d o p er a to r f o r t h e

m ec ha ni ca l H V AC s ys te ms f or t he M ur ra h B ui ld in g.

Q. D id y ou m ov e o n t o a ny o th er p os it io n w hi le y ou


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w er e w or ki ng a t t he M ur ra h B ui ld in g?

A. I di d. I b ec am e t he m ai nt en an ce m ec ha ni c f or em an

f or t he c om pl ex , a nd t he n I b ec am e a ss is ta nt b ui ld in g

m an ag er , a nd t he n l at er d is tr ic t m an ag er .

Q. Do y ou r em em be r w ha t p osi ti on y ou h el d in 1 99 5?

A. I w as a ss is ta nt b ui ld in g m a na ge r.

Q. C oul d yo u p le as e d es cr ib e f o r t he c ou rt w ha t is

a n a ss is ta nt b ui ld in g m an ag er , w ha t i s i t t ha t y ou 'r e - -

t he r es po ns ib il it ie s o f t ha t j o b e nt ai l?

A. T ha t j o b r eq ui re d b ei ng a c on tr ac ti ng o ff ic er t o

l et c on tr ac ts f or r ep ai rs a n d a lt er at io ns t o t he

b u il d in g s f o r c l ea n in g , f o r m a in t en a nc e , i t r e qu i re d

w or ki ng w it h t he a ge nc y h ea ds a nd t en an ts i n t er ms o f

t he ir n ee ds , j us t b ei ng a l an dl or d s o- to -s pe ak , b ut w e

w er e d ir ec tl y r es po ns ib le f o r a ll t he o pe ra ti on s f or t he

building.

Q. W he n y ou s ay " op er at io ns ," w ou ld y ou c la ri fy

t ha t, w ha t d oe s o pe ra ti on s e nt ai l o r e nc om pa ss i n y ou r

mind?

A. I t w o u ld e nc om pa ss m ai nt en an ce , r e p ai rs ,

c l ea n in g , c o ns t ru c ti o n, w o rk i ng w i th c o nt r ac t or s o n

a lt er at io n p ro je ct s f or t he t en an ts , a nd b as ic al ly

t ak in g c ar e o f t he b ui ld in g a nd t he t en an ts a s a

landlord.

Q. W ha t w er e y ou r r es po ns ib il it ie s w it h r es pe ct t o


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w or ki ng w it h c on tr ac ts , c ou ld y ou e la bo ra te o n t ha t?

A. As a c on tr ac ti ng o ff ice r, i t w as m y d ut y t o p ut

c on tr ac ts o ut f or b id , a wa rd t ho se c on tr ac ts , a nd

o ve rs ee t h e w or k .

Q. I n y ou r r es po ns ib il it ie s f o r b u i ld in g o pe ra ti on s,

w er e y ou f am il ia r w it h s ec ur it y m ea su re s f or t he

building?

A. I wa s f am il ia r w i th i t a s w e w o rk ed d ir ect ly w ith

t he F ed er al P ro te ct iv e S er vi ce i n s ec ur in g t he b ui ld in gs

a nd b ei ng r esp on si bl e n ot f or i t, bu t w it h t he m. W e

w o rk e d d i re c tl y w i th t h e F e de r al P r ot e ct i ve S e rv i ce .

Q. W he n y ou sa y w or ke d d ir ec tl y w it h t he m, c ou ld y ou

d es cr ib e w ha t y ou m ea n w he n y ou s ay y ou w or ke d d ir ec tl y

w i th t h e F e de r al P r ot e ct i ve S e rv i ce s ?

A. They were also housed in th e c omplex, as GSA. We

w er e p ar tn er s i n w or ki ng w it h t he t en an ts . A ny c on ce rn s

t ha t t he y m ay h av e a nd a ss is ti n g F ed er al P ro te ct iv e

S er vi ce i n a ny w ay t ha t w e c ou ld i n t he w ay o f

a l te r at i on s o r u p gr a de s o r c o nt r ac t in g .

Q. W ou ld y ou m ee t w it h F ed er al P ro te ct iv e S er vi ce s

o n s e cu r it y i s su e s c o nc e rn i ng t h e b u il d in g ?

A. We met with FPS and the tenants on a regular

b as is t o d is cu ss t en an ts ' c on ce rn s a nd a ny o th er i ss ue s

t ha t m ig ht b e b ro ug ht a bo ut by F PS , o r b y u s t o th em f or

t h at m a tt e r.


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Q. A re y ou f am il ia r w it h M r. T om H un t?

A. I am.

Q. How do you know Mr. Tom Hunt?

A. I k ne w M r. H un t a s t h e F PS re pr es en tat iv e f ro m

o ur r eg io na l o ff ic e t o O kl ah om a C it y w ho w or ke d i n o ur

complex.

Q. And is Mr . T om Hunt a perso n t hat you met with

w he n o n t h e j ob c on du ct in g r es po ns ib il it ie s a s b ui ld in g

manager?

A. T ha t' s c or re ct , r eg ul ar ly .

Q. I w an t t o d ra w y o ur a tt en ti on t o A p ril 19 , 1 9 95 ,

d o y ou r em em be r w he re y ou w er e t ha t d ay ?

A. Yes, sir. I had just come out of a meeting from

m y m an ag er 's o ff ic e, w ho se o ff ic e w as b eh in d m y m in e .

O ur o ff ic e w as o n t he f ir st f lo or , w es t e nd o f t he

b ui ld in g. I wa s s ta nd in g i n m y o ff ic e w it h m y p la nn er

e st im at or d is cu ss in g t he r es ul ts o f t he m ee ti ng t ha t w e

h ad j us t ha d w ith t he C le rk of t he C ou rt f ro m t he

District Court.

Q. A nd w ha t h ap pe ned n ex t?

A. T ha t' s t h e l a st t hi ng I r em em be r.

Q. Why i s t hat the last --

A. I d id n' t h e ar a ny th in g, I d id n' t s e e a n yt hi ng .

I ' m s o rr y ?

Q. W hy i s t h at t he l as t t hi ng yo u r e me mb er ?


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A. B ec au se o f t he b l ast . I w a s kn oc ke d o ut, b uri ed ,

I j us t d id n' t h ea r a ny th in g o r f ee l a ny th in g u nt il d ay s

later.

Q. Do y ou r em em be r - - w h en d id y ou r eg ain

consciousness?

A. P ro ba bl y l at e W ed ne sd ay , A pr il t he 1 9t h, t ha t

a ft er no on a s I c am e o ut o f s ur ge ry .

Q. Mr . W illiams, I want to ask you about -- you

m en ti on ed y ou w er e f am il ia r w it h t he b ui ld in g b ec au se o f

y ou r p os it io n ; i s t ha t c or re ct ?

A. T ha t' s c or re ct .

Q. A nd y ou 'r e f am il ia r w it h t he b ui ld in g s ec ur it y

m ea su re s a s w el l ?

A. T hr ou gh w or ki ng w it h t he F PS , t ha t' s c or re ct .

Q. W er e y o u fa mi li ar w it h th e c am er as t ha t w e re on

t he M ur ra h B ui ld in g, t he c am er a s ys te m?

A. Yes.

Q. H ow a re y ou f am il ia r w it h t h e c am er a s y st em o n

t h e M u rr a h B u il d in g ?

A. T her e wa s a c on tr ol c en te r in t he F ede ra l

B ui ld in g C ou rt ho us e b as em en t, w hi ch w as i n t he s am e r oo m

w he re m y b ui ld in g a ut om at io n s ys te m w as t ha t I

c on tr ol le d t h e o pe ra ti on s o f t h e H VA C f or t he M ur ra h

B ui ld in g, a nd t ha t c on tr ol c en te r a lo ng , w it h t he c am er a

p la ce me nt , w as d on e I t hi nk i n t he e ar ly ' 80 s s om et im e,


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s o w e w or ke d w it h t he i ns ta ll er s i n h el pi ng t he m

a ss is ti ng t he m i n g et ti ng t ho se c am er as i ns ta ll ed . B ut

I w as i n t ha t r oo m f or ma ny , m an y ye ar s o n a d ai ly b as is

o pe ra ti ng m y s ys te m, b ut b ei ng i n t ha t r oo m w it h t ho se

c am er as a ls o i n t ha t c on tr ol c en te r.

Q. C an y ou d es cr ib e t h at c on tr ol c en te r a l it tl e

m or e, w ha t d id i t c on si st o f?

A. T he c on tr ol c en te r w a s i n t he b as em ent of t he

c ou rt ho us e a n d i t w as i n t he F ed er al P ro te ct iv e S er vi ce

j oi nt o ff ic e wh er e m y s ys te m w as a nd i t w as a s tan d w it h

a s er ie s o f m on it or s u p o n a c on so le , a nd t he re wa s a

s ec ur it y o ff ic er b ac k t he n t ha t w ou ld s it a nd w at ch

t ho se m on it or s. T ha t i nc lu de d c am er as f ro m t he

C ou rt ho us e a n d t he U .S . P os t O ff ic e C ou rt ho us e a ls o

a lo ng w it h t h e M ur ra h B ui ld in g c am er as .

Q. Y ou s ai d t he m on it or s. D id t he se c ame ra s r eco rd

f il m, d id t he y c ap tu re f il m ?

A. No, sir.

Q. How do you know that?

A. No , s ir. T he y w er e s im pl y j us t i ns ta nt an eo us

m on it or s t o b e w at ch ed .

Q. Do y ou k no w i f t he se c am er as w er e o pe ra ti ona l o n

A pr il 1 9, 1 99 5?

A. They were n ot.

M R. T RE NT AD UE : O bj ec ti on , f ou nd at io n, Y ou r


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Honor.

TH E CO UR T: S us ta in ed . T he a ns we r is

s tr ic ke n. Y o u n e ed t o l a y a dd it io na l f o u nd at io n .


Q. (B y M r. S ip le ) M r. W il li am s, h ow o ft en w oul d yo u

s pe nd t im e i n t hi s a re a w he re t he m on it or s w er e f or t he

c am er as o n t h e M ur ra h B ui ld in g?

A. On a daily basis when I was operating the

b ui ld in g, a nd a ls o w he n w e m ov ed o ur o ff ic es o ve r t o t he

b ui ld in g i n ' 89 t ha t w as r ig ht t he re w he re o ur o ff ic es

w er e l oc at ed o n t he f ir st f lo or .

Q. W er e y ou ev er i nv ol ve d i n a ny m ee ti ngs or

d is cu ss io ns c on ce rn in g t he c am er as p ri or t o A pr il 1 9 th ,

1995?

A. T he re w as s om e d is cu ss io n w h en t he F ed er al

P ro te ct iv e S er vi ce b as ic al ly p ha se d o ut t he c on tr ol

c en ter as t he - -

M R. S IP LE : S to p y ou r a ns we r.

M R. T RE NT AD UE : O bj ec ti on , f ou nd at io n, a nd

o b je c ti o n , h e ar s ay , Y o ur H o no r .

TH E CO UR T: S o f ar we do n' t h a ve a ny c on te nt

o f t he h ea rs ay , s o t he o bj ec ti on i s o ve rr ul ed o n t ha t

basis.

M R. S IP LE : Y ou m ay c on ti nu e a ns we ri ng ,

M r . W i ll i am s .


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T HE W I TN ES S: I 'm s o rr y?

T HE C OU RT : R ep hr as e t h e q ue st io n f or h im .

TH E W IT NE SS : P le as e, ye s, s i r. T ha nk y ou .

Q. (B y M r. S ip le ) D o y ou h av e an y p er so na l k no wl ed ge

c on ce rn in g b ud ge t i ss ue s t ha t t he M ur ra h B ui ld in g a n d

y ou r c om pl ex w as f ac in g t ha t m ig ht h av e i mp ac te d o n t he

c am er as i n t h e b ui ld in g?

A. I t w ou ld r ea ll y b e t he F ed er al P ro te ct iv e S er vi ce

b ud ge t t hr ou gh G SA . A ga in , a s t he c ou rt e xp an de d a nd

b ec am e s ec ur ed t hr ou gh t he U .S . M ar sh al S er vi ce a nd

h ir ed t he ir o wn s ec ur it y c on tr ac to rs - -

M R. T R EN TA DU E: O bj ec ti on .

T HE W IT NE SS : - - t he F ed er al P ro te ct iv e

S er vi ce h ad t o c ut b ac k - -

M R. S IP LE : S to p y ou r a ns we r.

T HE W IT NE SS : - - s e cu ri ty g ua rd s.

T HE C OU RT : W as t he re a n o bj ec ti on ,

M r . T r en t ad u e?

M R. T RE NT AD UE : F ou nd at io n, s ir . H e' s ju st

r am bl in g o n a bo ut h is - -

TH E C OU RT : L et 's ma ke s ur e t ha t w e la y

a ct ua l f ou nd at io n a s t o h ow h e k no ws w ha t h e' s a bo ut t o

t e st i fy t o .

Q. (B y M r. Siple) Let m e s tep back here,

M r. W il lia ms . I f t h er e w as g oi ng to b e w o rk d one o n t h e


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b ui ld in g, i n y ou r r ol e a s b ui ld in g m an ag er , w ou ld y o u

k no w a bo ut i t ?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Why is that?

A. W el l, e ve ry th in g t h at w en t o n i n t he b ui ld in g

w en t t hr ou gh u s o r i n c on ju nc ti on w it h u s, s o w e w ou ld

b e a wa re o f a ny wo rk t ha t w as g oi ng o n i n t he b ui ld in g,

s o i t w ou ld n ot i nt er ru pt s er vi ce t o o ur t en an ts o r t he

c ou rt s, o r w e w ou ld n ot h av e h ad p eo pl e w or ki ng i n t he

b ui ld in g t ha t s ho ul d n ot b e t he re , c on tr ac to rs .

Q. W as i t p ar t o f y ou r r es po ns ib il it y t o k no w a bo ut

s ys te ms t ha t a re i n t he b ui ld in g a nd h ow - - s ys te ms t ha t

a re i n t he b ui ld in g a nd h ow t he y a re o pe ra ti on al ?

A. A bs ol ut el y, y es .

Q. Why is that?

A. T ha t w a s ou r r es po ns ib il it y w as t o k no w h o w t o

m a in t ai n a n d o p er a te t h os e s y st e ms .

Q. And di d y ou testify -- and was one of your

r es po ns ib il it ie s a ls o t o w ei gh i n o n p ro te ct io n o f t he

b ui ld in g i ts el f, c on ce rn s i n t ha t r eg ar d?

A. I n c on ju nc ti on w it h t he F ed er al P ro te ct iv e

S e rv i ce , y e s.

Q. H ow m an y ti me s - - a gai n, e xp la in w he re y ou w er e

l oc at ed , y ou r c on tr ol r oo m a re a i n r el at io n t o t he

cameras.


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A. T he c on tr ol r oo m w h er e t h e c a me ra s w e re ?

Q. Yes.

A. T ha t w a s i n t h e F ed er al B ui ld in g C ou rt ho us e

b a se m en t a t N o rt h we s t F o ur t h S t re e t.

Q. How much time did you spend there, just o n a

w ee kl y b as is , h ow m uc h t im e w ou ld y ou b e i n t ha t a re a?

A. In t he e ar ly y ea rs w he n I w as o pe ra ti ng t he

b u il d in g , p r io r t o b e co m in g m a in t en a nc e m e ch a ni c f o re m an

a nd t he a ss is ta nt b ui ld in gs m an ag er , i t w as e ve r yd ay .

Q. W er e y ou ab le t o s ee t he m on it or s f o r t he c am era s

w hi le y ou w er e d ow n t he re ?

A. Yes.

Q. W er e y ou ab le t o s ee t he i ma ge s t ha t w er e b ei ng

conveyed?

A. Yes.

Q. And di d t here ever come a time that there were no

m or e i ma ge s a nd t he y w er en 't w or ki ng f ro m y ou r

observations?

A. Yes.

Q. C ou ld y ou p le as e e l ab or at e o n t ha t.

A. They were -- yes, sir. They were gradually

p ha se d o ut a s t he m ar sh al s a nd t he c ou rt s ec ur it y

o ff ic er s t oo k o ve r t he c am er a a nd t he s ec ur it y o f t he

c ou rt ho us e, a nd t he n, b ec au se t he re w as n o l on ge r a

p er so n a t t ha t c on tr ol c en te r, t he y p ha se d d ow n t he


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c am er as f o r t he M ur ra h B ui ld in g a ls o, a nd t ho se c am er as

w er e j us t b as ic al ly s hu t o ff .

Q. D o y o u r e me mb er w he n t h is o cc ur re d?

A. I b el ie ve i t w as t wo to t hr ee , m ay be f ou r y ea rs

b e fo r e t h e b o mb i ng .

Q. W ha t' s t h e b as is f or t ha t c o nc lu si on ?

A. R em em be ri ng t he d is cu ss io ns t ha t w e h ad a bo ut

w ha t F ed er al P ro te ct iv e S er vi ce w a s g oi ng t o p ro vi de i n

t he w ay o f s ec ur it y, i t b ec am e f ro m t ha t, a lo ng w it h

t ha t, t he c am er as , t o g ua rd s er vi ce b as ic al ly . A nd t he y

m ad e u s a wa re o f t ha t.

Q. D id y ou e ve r r ai se a ny co nc er ns a bo ut p ha si ng o ut

t h e c a me r as ?

A. We did no t d irectly relay them. We relate d

c on ce rn s f ro m o ur t en an ts t o t h e F ed er al P ro te ct iv e

S er vi ce i n o u r s af et y m ee ti ng s a nd s ec ur it y m ee ti ng s .

Q. Just a fe w a dditional questions. I want to ask

y ou a bo ut y ou r w or k w it h c on tr ac ti ng . W er e y ou w or ki ng

o n a ny b id s o r p ro po sa ls f or w or k o n t he M ur ra h B ui ld in g

a ro un d 1 99 5, t he A pr il 1 99 5 t im e p er io d?

A. Y es , s ir . T he re w as a pr os pe ct us l ev el p r oj ec t

t ha t w a s o ng oi ng f or b id s. It w as s ub je ct to b id o n

A pr il t he 2 0t h f or a m aj or u pg ra de o f t he M ur ra h

B u il d in g , w h ic h i n cl u de d m e ch a ni c al , e l ec t ri c al ,

s tr uc tu ra l, c os me ti c. T ha t w as a p ro je ct t ha t w as


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f un de d o ut o f W as hi ng to n , D . C. t hr ou gh o ur r eg io na l

o ff ic e, a nd w e h ad - - w e p ar ti ci pa te d i n t ho se c on tr ac t

m e et i ng s , t h os e p r e- b id m e et i ng s , a n d w a lk t hr o ug h s w i th

t he c on tr ac to rs a s t he l oc al b ui ld in g m an ag er .

Q. A nd d id t hi s b id i nc lud e a ny s ec ur it y u pg ra de s o r

u pd at es t o t h e M ur ra h B ui ld in g?

A. No, sir. No, sir.

Q. How do you know that?

A. F ro m r em em be ri ng t he s pe ci fi ca ti on s a nd t he s co pe

o f t he w or k t ha t w e h ad h elp ed w or k o n p ri or t o th e bi d.

Q. D id y ou a ct ua ll y w or k o n t ho se s pe ci fi ca ti on s?

A. W e w or ke d w it h t he a rc hi te ct s a nd e ng in ee ri ng

f ir ms t ha t w er e co nt ra ct ed w it h G SA. T he y c am e t o u s

a nd a sk ed u s o ur n ee ds , o ur r eq ui re me nt s, a nd t hi ng s

t ha t w e f el t wo ul d b e n ee de d f or t he u pg ra de o f th e

b ui ld in g. T he y in cl ud ed us in e ve ry p ha se of it .

Q. Do y ou r ec al l i f t he c am er as o n t he e xt eri or of

t he b ui ld in g w er e s ti ll t he re i n 1 99 5, t he a ct ua l

cameras themselves?

A. T he re w er e - - y es , t h er e w e re s ev er al c am er as

t ha t w er e s ti ll a tt ac he d i n t he b ui ld in g a nd i n t he

c ei li ng s a nd t o t he e xt er io r.

Q. W er e y o u i nv ol ve d i n a ny m ee ti ng s c on ce rn in g w hy

t ho se c am er as w er e s ti ll o n t he e xt er io r?

A. No , s ir, no t a ft er F PS sh ut t he ir c ont ro l c ent er


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d ow n. I t w as b as ic al ly j us t d is cu ss ed t ha t a ll c am er as

w ou ld b e l ef t i n p la ce a s a d et er re nt b ut n ot

functional.

MR. S IPLE: Thank y ou. No f urther

questions.


M R. T RE NT AD UE : Y es , Y o ur H on or , a f ew .

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY R. T RENTADUE:

Q. M r. W il li am s, F ed er al P ro te ct iv e S er vi ce s w as

r es po ns ib le f or s ec ur it y a t t he M ur ra h B ui ld in g,

c or re ct ? C an y ou h er e m e, si r?

A. I' m s or ry , Y ou r H on or , I c an' t h ea r.

Q. I' ll a sk you a few q uestions. When were you

f ir st c on ta ct ed a bo ut t es ti fy in g h er e t od ay , s ir ?

A. T wo w ee ks a go , I b el iev e, s ir .

Q. W ho c on ta ct ed y ou ?

A. T he U .S . A tt or ne y' s O ff ic e, s pe ci fi ca ll y A da m - -

I a po lo gi ze , I c an 't r em em be r h is l as t n am e.

Q. T he c ou ns el t ha t j u st e xa mi ne d y o u, a sk ed

q ue st io ns ? C an yo u h e ar me , s i r?

A. Y es , s ir . B ut I d id n't u nd er st an d y ou r q ue st io n.

I a p ol o gi z e.

Q. Was i t A dam S iple?

A. Y es , s ir , t ha t' s c or re ct .


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Q. He told you about two weeks ago that y ou were

g oi ng t o b e t es ti fy in g?

A. He a sk ed me i f I w ou ld te st if y a b ou t m y k no wl ed ge

o f t he b ui ld in g.

Q. O ka y. N ow , Fe de ra l Pr ot ec ti ve S er vi ce s wa s

r e sp o ns i bl e f o r s e cu r it y , c o rr e ct , s i r?

A. That i s c orrect.

Q. A nd t ha t wa s f o r t he M ur ra h B u il di ng ?

A. Yes.

Q. T he o ld F ed er al P os t O ff ic e B u il di ng ?

A. C or re ct.

Q. T he F ed er al C ou rt ho us es ?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. T he n ew P os t O f fi ce B ui ld in g?

A. No.

Q. Okay. An d Mr. T om H unt was h ead o f F ederal

Protective Services?

A. H e w a s t h e r es po ns ib le p er so n i n O kl ah om a C it y

r e pr e se n ti n g t h e r e gi o na l o f f ic e , y e s.

Q. I b el ie ve y ou t es ti fi ed t ha t f o r b ud ge ta ry

c on ce rn s t he s ur ve il la nc e s ys t em w as s hu t d ow n a bo ut

t hr ee o r f ou r y ea rs b ef or e t he b om bi ng ?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. A nd t ha t s hu t d o wn t he s ur ve il la nc e s y st em f or

t h e M u rr a h B u il d in g ?


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A. T he M ur ra h B ui ld in g, a nd t he c ou rt s t oo k ov er t he

F ed er al B ui ld in g C ou rt ho us e a nd o l d P os t O ff ic e

B ui ld in g. T h e F e d er al P ro te ct iv e S er vi ce b ec am e

r es po ns ib le f or t he M ur ra h B ui ld in g a nd t he M u rr ah

g ar ag e a nd t h e p er im et er .

Q. S o t he s ur ve il la nc e s ys te m w ou ld h av e b ee n s h ut

d ow n f or t he o ld F ed er al P os t O ff ic e B ui ld in g t oo ?

A. It w ou ld ha ve f or -- as f ar a s F e de ra l P ro te cti ve

S e rv i ce m o ni t or i ng , y e s.

Q. And yo u s ay that the monitors were not in

o pe ra ti on s in ce f ou r y ea rs b ef or e t he b om bi ng .

A. Y es , s i r, I b el ie ve t ha t' s c o rr ec t.

Q. B ut t he c am er as t he ms el ve s, h ad t he y b ee n in

o pe ra ti on , w ou ld c er ta in ly h av e s ho wn t he a rr iv al o f t he

R yd er T ru ck t ha t m or ni ng , w ou l dn 't i t, s ir , A pr il 1 9 ,

1 99 5, a t t he M ur ra h B ui ld in g?

M R. S IP LE : O bj ec ti on , r e le va nc e a n d

speculation.

Q. (B y M r. T re nt ad ue ) W el l, y ou l oo ke d at t he

m on it or s a nd c ou ld s ee w ha t t he c am er as o n t he M ur ra h

B ui ld in g s ho we d o n t he s tr ee t, d id n' t y ou , s ir ?

A. Yes.

Q. It w ou ld ha ve s ho wn th e a rr iv al o f t he R yde r

t ru ck w it h t he b om b o n t he m orn in g o f A pr il 1 9, 19 95 , i f

t he y h ad b ee n i n o pe ra ti on , w ou ld n 't t he y, s ir ?


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A. Sir, I don't know that I can say yes or no to

that.

Q. W el l, it sh ow ed t he s tr ee t in f ro nt of t he M ur ra h

B u il d in g , d i dn ' t t h ey , s i r?

A. It f oc us ed o n t h e s i dew al k an d t h e s t re et a nd

t he - - b ot h w er e f oc us ed t ow ar d t he c en tr al p oi nt o f t he

e nt ra nc e o f t he b ui ld in g, t h e n or th e nt ra nc e.

Q. And fair to say that Mr . T om Hunt would have

b et te r k no wl ed ge t ha n y ou a bo ut t h e e xi st in g s ec ur it y

s ys te m, i nc lu di ng t he c am er a s ys te m a nd o pe ra ti on o n

A pr il 1 9, 1 99 5?

A. I t hi nk t ha t' s a f ai r s ta te me nt , y es , b ec au se h e

w ou ld j us t i nc lu de u s a s b ei ng a p ar tn er w it h t he m w it h

e ve ry th in g t ha t w as d on e.

Q. But he would know best.

A. Yes.

M R. T RE NT AD UE : N o f u r th er q ue st io ns , Y o u r

Honor.

T HE C O UR T: A ny r e di re ct ?

M R. SI PL E: N o, Y ou r H on or .

T HE C OU RT : T ha nk y ou , M r . W i ll ia ms , f o r

y ou r t e st im on y. Y ou a re e xc us ed .

M R. TR EN TA DU E: Y ou r H on or , I w ou ld r en ew m y

o bj ec ti on t o s tr ik e t hi s w it ne ss 's t es ti mo ny b ec au se h e

w as b ei ng g ro om ed a nd p re pa re d t o t es ti fy l on g b ef or e


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t h is t r ia l .

T HE C OU RT : T he o bj ec ti on i s o ve rr ul ed .

A ga in , y ou c an a rg ue t he s ig ni fi ca nc e o f t he

c i rc u ms t an c es a t a n a p pr o pr i at e t i me .

T he F BI m ay p ro ce ed w it h i ts n ex t w it ne ss .

MR. SIPLE: Yes , Your Honor. The FBI c alls

S p ec i al A g en t R e ti r ed S t ev e B r an n an .

TH E C OU RT : W e c an c lo se t he v id eo l in k a t

t h is p o in t .

THE CLERK: Sir , c an you hear me?

TH E C OU RT : W e d on 't h av e t he a ud io.

TH E W IT NE SS : H ow a bo ut n ow ?

THE COURT: Okay, n ow it's w orking. Go

ahead.

S T EP H EN B R AN N AN,




TH E CL ER K: W ou ld yo u p le as e s ay a nd s pe ll


T HE W IT NE SS : S te ph en , S -t -e -p -h -e -n ; m id dl e

i n it i al E . ; B r an n an , B - r- a -n - n- a -n .


BY R. SIPLE:

Q. G oo d m or ni ng M r . B ra nn an .


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A. G oo d m or ni ng .

Q. W he re a re y ou t es ti fy in g f ro m t od ay , A g en t

Brannan?

A. B ir mi ng ha m, A la ba ma .

Q. O ka y. A nd w h er e s pe ci fi ca ll y, w h at b u il di ng a r e

y ou a t?

A. I 'm a t t he U .S . A tt or ne y' s O ff ic e i n B i rm in gh am .

Q. Okay. Is there anyone in the room with y ou there

today?

A. No , th er e's n ot .

Q. Do y ou h av e a n y p a pe rs o r n ot es o r a n yt hi ng l ik e

t ha t w it h y ou t od ay ?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. C ou ld y ou p le as e i d en ti fy w ha t p a pe rs y ou h av e

w it h y ou .

A. I h av e s ix P la in ti ff 's E xh ib it s, n um be rs 5 5, 5 6,

5 7, 58 , 6 5, a nd 66 , a s we ll as t wo F BI e le ct ro ni c

c o mm u ni c at i on s f r om 1 9 95 .

Q. T ha nk y ou f or i de nt if yi ng t he P la in ti ff 's

E xh ib it s. A n d t h e e le ct ro ni c c om mu ni ca ti on s, h ow m an y

p ag es a re i n f ro nt o f y ou t ha t y ou m en ti on ed ?

A. T her e a re t wo c om mu ni ca tio ns , o ne p ag e e ac h. T he

f ir st o ne i s d at ed 1 0/ 30 /1 99 5, a nd t he s ec on d i s d at ed

1 1 /2 2 /1 9 95 , b o th o n e- p ag e d o cu m en t s.

M R. T RE NT AD UE : Y ou r H o no r, I w ou ld a ga in


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r en ew m y o bj ec ti on t o t hi s w it ne ss t es ti fy in g o n t he

b as is o f r el ev an ce a nd d ue p ro ce ss .

TH E CO UR T: T he o bj ect io n i s n ot ed a nd

overruled.

MR. SIPLE: I wo uld like the record to

r ef le ct t ha t t he w it ne ss i s r ef er ri ng t o w ha t 's m ar ke d

a s D ef en da nt 's E xh ib it 2 51 . Y ou r H on or , I w il l p ut t he m

u p i n

JULY 31, 2014 Trial Transcript Trentadue.pdf

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Transcript of JULY 31, 2014 Trial Transcript Trentadue.pdf