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Interview with James P. Dugan

Michael Aron: It's the afternoon of February 27th, 2008 , for the Rutgers Program on the Governor, the Brendan T.Byrne Archive. I’m Michael Aron. We're going to talk this afternoon with Jim Dugan. Jim was a state senator fromHudson County in 1973, when Brendan Byrne was running for governor. He threw his support to Byrne. Hebecame the state Democratic chairman shortly thereafter, and served in that position for Brendan Byrne's first term.Jim, before we talk about how you and Brendan Byrne intersected in life, tell us who you are and where you cameup and how you came up.

James P. Dugan: Well, I was born Bayonne , many years ago. I suppose in terms of political orientation, I shouldmention how I got to have an interest in politics. I had the good fortune of having wonderful parents. I had also thegood fortune of growing up in a great town at that time.

Q: Tell us about your parents.

James P. Dugan: My mother was a homemaker, and she worked, she had offices in the church volunteering. But shealso was a committeewoman for the district. From the time that I was very young, I witnessed her, my mother andthe committeemen, talking about how the district should be canvassed in a particular election, and problems thattheir little constituency had.

Q: A Democratic Party committeewoman?

James P. Dugan: Yes. And in those days, it was meaningful, much more meaningful than it is now. The politics wasdoor-to-door and very personal. I was really interested in it, and I grew up in that atmosphere.

Q: Your father?

James P. Dugan: My father was a construction worker. He was an operating engineer, and he was a supervisor inthat capacity. He had some really interesting jobs: the construction of the third tube of the Lincoln Tunnel, the NewYork Aqueduct. I used to go with him, because he had to check out things on the weekends, see the machinery. Hewas very conscientious. He would go there on off hours, and I would go with him. I used to go down into thebowels of the earth, so to speak, with my father. It was fascinating. And he was a good provider and a wonderfulman.

Q: And you were one of how many children?

James P. Dugan: Four.

Q: And what number were you?

James P. Dugan: I was number two.

Q: What is the ethnic background of the Dugan family?

James P. Dugan: Well, as you may have suspected, it was pretty much Irish, both of them. My mother's maidenname was Parks.

Q: Were your parents born in this country?

James P. Dugan: They were. And my grandparents, with the exception of my fraternal grandfather, were born heretoo. He was born in Ireland .

Q: Was Bayonne largely Irish in those days?

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James P. Dugan: We had ethnic conclaves that clustered around the different churches. There was a large Polish,large Italian, Irish, German. There were different churches, Catholic churches, that these different ethniccommunities gravitated to.

Q: Did you go to public or parochial school?

James P. Dugan: I went to parochial grammar school, and I went to St. Peter's Prep in Jersey City , a Jesuit prepschool, which I always preface, or I always continue the many descriptions of St. Peter's Prep as the best learningexperience I've ever had. The Jesuits were marvelous teachers, strict disciplinarians, and the curriculum we had waschallenging. We had four years of Latin, four years of math. It was a great preparation for college.

Q: Where did you go to college?

James P. Dugan: The University of Missouri .

Q: Why there?

James P. Dugan: I wanted to go away. We didn't have the kind of money that would have qualified me for entranceinto one of the Ivy League schools. And intellectually, I couldn't have gotten there either. I went there and I had agreat time, and it was a good education. I was pleased with it.

Q: Did you go right to law school thereafter?

James P. Dugan: No. I enlisted in the Marine Corps. I got a commission.

Q: Why did you enlist in the Marines?

James P. Dugan: Well, there was a draft at that time, but it really wasn't the principal motivation I had. It soundskind of awkward to say that I thought I had to. The country had been very good to me, and I thought I wassupposed to go and bear arms in their defense.

Q: Did you bear arms?

James P. Dugan: I did indeed.

Q: Where, Korea ?

James P. Dugan: In Korea .

Q: I read in your bio that you were wounded in Korea .

James P. Dugan: Yeah.

Q: Seriously wounded? How badly?

James P. Dugan: Well, when I got back to our own MLR, our main line of resistance, there was an attack that I ledon a Chinese outpost. But by the time I got back, I was helped on a stretcher and so on. I went to a MASH unit, andI'm sure you've seen M*A*S*H, and you know the opening scene, as the helicopters came in with the woundedstrapped to the outside in these glass boxes. Well, I had the fun in being in one of those glass boxes. Then I went toa hospital ship. Then I went to Japan , then to Hawaii . And I wound up in St. Albans Naval Hospital in Long Island.

Q: How long was your convalescence?

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James P. Dugan: Oh, I guess five months.

Q: Let's go back to your childhood for a minute. You say your mother was very involved as a localcommitteewoman. To what extent did she involve you in what she was up to?

James P. Dugan: We had great communications in our family, something that families miss now, and certain myfamily does. Every night, we had supper together. When my father came home from work, he washed up. We all satdown, my three sisters and I, and my mother and father, and the communications were natural. We discussedeverything.

Q: What were her politics?

James P. Dugan: She was a Democrat. She never had a political job or a public sector job. She just took care of thefamily and did the other things that she did. I suppose middle of the road Democrat.

Q: Roosevelt Democrat?

James P. Dugan: Yeah. I mean, he did a great deal for the generation of my father and mother. I remember theWPA and all the other things that the '30s brought, and how dominant Roosevelt was, and how anything thathappened was because he initiated it, or seemed to initiate it.

Q: He was a popular figure in your household?

James P. Dugan: Very much so.

Q: You've come back from the war, then you go to law school?

James P. Dugan: Yeah. I worked for a year in construction, because the timing was bad. I got out of the MarineCorps too late to start law school, so I worked for almost a year before I went. I went to Fordham University lawschool. I continued working in construction during college, law school summers and vacations and so on. I guesshaving had the political or the public service stimulus that I had all my life, I got involved in politics with a lawyernamed Francis Fitzpatrick. He was the family lawyer. He took care of the wills and things of that nature. He was anadmirable guy, honest as the day is long. And, you know, in Hudson County sometimes, you were thought of asbeing something other than that. But he was as straight as an arrow, and we had the commission form ofgovernment, where five commissioners were elected, and they chose one of their own to be the mayor. The othersdivided up administratively the duties of running the city. But it really didn't work out. It was just chock full ofpolitics that stifled development and change. So Fitzpatrick ran for the commission form of government with histicket.

Q: What year are we talking about, roughly?

James P. Dugan: In the mid '60s.

Q: Mid '60s, okay.

James P. Dugan: Since I was in law school, or had just graduated and was clerking, I had enough time to spend onhis campaign.

Q: Mid '60s or mid 50's?

James P. Dugan: Sixties.

Q: Sixties, okay, go ahead.

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James P. Dugan: Some time in the '60s. Maybe it was earlier than mid. It's been a long time, Mike. So I went withFitzpatrick all through his campaign, and it was a revelation about how things should not be done.

Q: Like what?

James P. Dugan: Oh, it was just a comedy of errors. There was no organization. All they had was the presence ofFrank Fitzpatrick, who was kind of dominating, and a running mate named George Prendeville [sp?], who was theRepublican part of the ticket, and three others who were just kind of fill ins. Well, in any event, after a vigorouscampaign, Fitzpatrick and Prendeville were elected. Two candidates from another ticket were elected, and onecandidate from a third was elected. Fitzpatrick and Prendeville couldn't make the deal to get one of the other three,so that they would be members of the majority and assume the mayor's role. So that happened, and shortly afterelection, I showed up at Fitzpatrick's law office, as I was wont to do, and we talked. I said, "What I think you oughtto do, Commissioner, is start a campaign to elect charter commissioners to examine the Bayonne municipal charter,and make recommendations of changing the form of government if appropriate." That was under the Faulkner Act.I think Jersey City had done that, went through that same process, the year before. So I can remember him saying,"I've only been in the job for three of four months, and you want to kick me out." I said, "No, Commissioner, I wantyou to be the mayor. I want the government to change. It's clear to me that that's what should happen." So he saidokay, and we put together a slate of five, got the petitions and got the referendum on the ballot. I'll tell you when itwas. Jack Kennedy, when he ran, that was the year we were on the ballot.

Q: Nineteen sixty.

James P. Dugan: Yeah. And we won. The referendum passed, and our five were selected as the chartercommissioners. I ran that campaign. I was chosen as the chairman, and we had hearings for six months. Leteverybody have a shot at coming in and trying to persuade us what we should do. And then we made arecommendation that we change the form of government to strong mayor, council. That was put on the ballot and itwon overwhelmingly. Then we had an election, the first election under that form of government, and I ran thatcampaign. Now Commissioner Fitzpatrick became Mayor Fitzpatrick. We elected all five council candidates andthe mayor. We were on a roll.

Q: What role did you play in the mayor's administration?

James P. Dugan: I was appointed director of the department of law. As such, I was very close to everything thatwas being done, governmentally in Bayonne .

Q: Was Fitzpatrick a good mayor?

James P. Dugan: Excellent, excellent.

Q: How long did he serve?

James P. Dugan: He served for eight years. He could have run again without significant opposition, but he chosenot to. And during that eight years, we managed to make alliances with Paul Jordan, who was the reform mayor ofJersey City , and Frank Rogers, who was the longest serving mayor in the history of the country, I suppose,according to him. He was the mayor of Harrison , but he had political influence, control, over the western part ofthe county. Then we started to do things-- we were able to do things on a state and national level, because MayorFitzpatrick then became the county chairman.

Q: When we think about Hudson County , we think about the political bosses of that era, and the era preceding,Frank Hague, John V. Kenny. Where did Frank Fitzpatrick and you and Frank Rogers fit in to that legacy?

James P. Dugan: It was a new day, absolutely. Politics is constantly evolving. I can remember, years later, when Iwas a member of the constitutional convention that dealt with the one man, one vote, and how I thought there were

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going to be significant political consequences to the implementation of that notion. And indeed, there was. But itwas a completely different era. Frank Fitzpatrick had nothing in common with Mayor Hague, or Mayor Kenny. Idon’t say that in condemnation. I never met Hague. Mayor Kenny, I met him a number of times, and I served oneterm in the Assembly during his term as county chairman. He never asked or suggested that I do anything improper.

Q: Was he county chairman both before and after Fitzpatrick?

James P. Dugan: No, he was before.

Q: He was before.

James P. Dugan: Yeah.

Q: So if people think that Kenny and Hague were corrupt, what do you say?

James P. Dugan: Well, I don't know. They did a lot of good things, but Hague was never convicted of anything, Idon’t think. Kenny, I think, pled to some things that were not particularly shocking, but nevertheless, he wasconvicted of wrongdoing. That's his legacy.

Q: Was your team thought of as reformers?

James P. Dugan: I think so, yeah.

Q: Were you considered weaker than the bosses that came before and after you?

James P. Dugan: On the contrary.

Q: How so? How were you regarded?

James P. Dugan: Any of these offices, they're what you make of them, what the incumbent makes of them. You canbe a county chairman and have a little influence on events, at that time. On the other hand, you could be a countychairman who dominated the political landscape within the county and beyond. And that's what we hoped to do. Asevents unfolded, we did do that.

Q: How does a county chair who wants to make of the office quite a bit, how does he achieve that? How does hewield power?

James P. Dugan: I think one of the things you have to do is, you have to be a straight arrow. Because if you're goingto engage in marginal things that are questionable, both legally and ethically, you're exposed to such an extent thatthat kind of conduct on your part breeds a continuation of that by others. Before you know it, you have a corruptorganization, as well as being corrupt yourself. In Bayonne , we were pretty-- even before Fitzpatrick, we werepretty straight. Bayonne is a peninsula and it's somewhat isolated, both geographically and politically. The slogan Ican earliest remember, is "Home rule not Hague rule." Anybody that ran for office in Bayonne had to have that ashis or her escutcheon, "Home rule not Hague rule." And we didn't want the county messing in our affairs.

Q: I'm a little vague on the timeline here. Hague was the boss in what year, the '30s and '40s? Forties and '50s?

James P. Dugan: John V. Kenny won a big election in 1949.

Q: For mayor of Jersey City ?

James P. Dugan: Yes. Because I can remember the '49ers. That's what they used to call themselves. He served oneterm, but there were several terms thereafter served by mayors who were beholden to Mayor Kenny.

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Q: But you said earlier that Kenny succeeded Fitzpatrick at county chairman.

James P. Dugan: No, no, preceded.

Q: Preceded. Okay. So it went Hague, Kenny, Fitzpatrick, with maybe something in between.

James P. Dugan: Yeah. In between, there was Mayor Whelan of Jersey City , and Tom Gangemi, who was alsomayor of Jersey City who, when he had a falling out with Kenny, it was discovered that he wasn't a citizen. He wasdisqualified from continuing to serve as mayor. So he left office.

Q: What was the ethnic makeup of Hudson County ?

James P. Dugan: It was an ethnic mix.

Q: Who was dominant?

James P. Dugan: Irish, Italian, Slavic, Polish. Mostly European immigrants and their children. Ethnicity was a bigthing, as I said, gave you the example about the churches. Mount Carmel Catholic Church, they would have massesin Polish. I can remember going to Mount Carmel church. They had one of the most brilliant choirmasters, and thechoir that he produced in that church was just spectacular. It was a pleasure going there and listening to them. TheAssumption church had a 95 percent Italian-American congregation. And there were a number of synagogues too,that we had in Bayonne, a sizable Jewish community.

Q: To what extent did Fitzpatrick have to balance ticket ethnically?

James P. Dugan: It was a gesture that was made. I don’t know how necessary it was. But everybody wants to beassociated with their government. One of the ways to do it in an ethnic community like that is to have somebodywith Polish extraction, an Italian-American, an Irish-American. The Irish survive not by their wits and not theirnumbers in Hudson County . I think there was nothing wrong with that, having ethnic/political balance on a ticket.

Q: Do you remember any particular candidate that was brought onto a ticket for ethnic reasons?

James P. Dugan: Of course not. That was a minor consideration.

Q: Fitzpatrick had been mayor and county chairman for a number of years, and then you went into the legislature.Is that correct?

James P. Dugan: Yeah. Not too long.

Q: Not too long? Two or four years into his time?

James P. Dugan: Yeah.

Q: What year did you first run for the legislature?

James P. Dugan: I think it was '69.

Q: You ran for the Assembly?

James P. Dugan: I did.

Q: An open seat? Or you had to knock off an incumbent in a primary?

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James P. Dugan: There was a change.

Q: The incumbent was told he wouldn't be backed?

James P. Dugan: I think he decided to retire.

Q: And why did you want to go to Trenton?

James P. Dugan: I thought I could do a lot of good things. I thought-- I very much wanted to do that. I reallywanted to be in the Senate, but I couldn't pull that off.

Q: Do you remember who the senator was in those days from your district?

James P. Dugan: We had a senator serving at large for a while. There was Billy Musto, Bill Kelley and Fred Hauserand Frank Guarini. Their terms may have overlapped a little bit, but those are the four. I served with Bill Kelley,Billy Musto and Frank Rogers.

Q: What was the legislature like when you were first elected?

James P. Dugan: It was a new experience, and a new area in which to operate. We were in the minority, so youcould get up and make a speech, object to anything you wanted to, without any great consequence, so it was a greatpractice. But I thought the people were pretty well motivated. As a matter of fact, a little earlier today, ChipColeman was mentioned, and he was a Republican-- he was the Republican chairman of the appropriationscommittee. I wanted to get on that because I wanted to see how you raise the money and where it went. I was veryimpressed with him, and he used to lecture me on my shortcomings for the first year or so until I straightened outand did things that were satisfactory to him. I say that somewhat facetiously, but it was a great learning experience.But it didn't have the decorum, and you weren't able to, even those people in the majority, didn't seem to be able tocontrol things as much as I would have liked to if I was in the majority.

Q: You said you went down there because you thought you could do good things. You said it in such a way toimply more or less what you've just said, which is that it's very difficult to get anything done. Is that what Iunderstand you to be saying?

James P. Dugan: Yeah. Unless you know the system and you develop the skills to gather the votes necessary to getanything done. I'd like to think I was a pretty quick study, so when I went to the Senate for a two year term, againwe were in the minority. And Dick Coffee was in the minority too. He was a member of the minority, and EdCrabiel. There were nine or ten of us out of 40. That was a great learning experience too. And I had a goodrelationship with Bill Cahill, who was the governor at that time. I found myself as the token Democrat at manyMorven dinners, where Governor Cahill would regale us with stories and so on, on St. Patrick's Day and other days.

Q: How did you develop this relationship with Cahill?

James P. Dugan: I really don't know. We just got along well together. As a matter of fact, when he lost the primaryto Charlie Sandman, I went in to see him, to see Bill Cahill, and I told him, as the likely next Democratic statechairman, I was delighted that he wasn't running. I said, "As a citizen of the state, I'm sorry that you lost," because Ithought he was a good guy.

Q: Might your tie to Cahill have anything to do with the fact that from earlier interviews we've done, we've beentold that Hudson County supported Cahill over Meyner in running for governor in '69?

James P. Dugan: No, no. But Cahill did appoint me to constitutional convention for reapportionment of the statelegislature, the one man, one vote. I served on a couple of commissions. But Cahill would ask the county leadershipif they had nominees, and a lot of people just didn't care to serve on those things. I volunteered and I got to know

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him maybe during those years.

Michael Aron: It's the afternoon of February 27th, 2008 , for the Rutgers Program on the Governor, the Brendan T.Byrne Archive. I’m Michael Aron. We're going to talk this afternoon with Jim Dugan. Jim was a state senator fromHudson County in 1973, when Brendan Byrne was running for governor. He threw his support to Byrne. Hebecame the state Democratic chairman shortly thereafter, and served in that position for Brendan Byrne's first term.Jim, before we talk about how you and Brendan Byrne intersected in life, tell us who you are and where you cameup and how you came up.

James P. Dugan: Well, I was born Bayonne , many years ago. I suppose in terms of political orientation, I shouldmention how I got to have an interest in politics. I had the good fortune of having wonderful parents. I had also thegood fortune of growing up in a great town at that time.

Q: Tell us about your parents.

James P. Dugan: My mother was a homemaker, and she worked, she had offices in the church volunteering. But shealso was a committeewoman for the district. From the time that I was very young, I witnessed her, my mother andthe committeemen, talking about how the district should be canvassed in a particular election, and problems thattheir little constituency had.

Q: A Democratic Party committeewoman?

James P. Dugan: Yes. And in those days, it was meaningful, much more meaningful than it is now. The politics wasdoor-to-door and very personal. I was really interested in it, and I grew up in that atmosphere.

Q: Your father?

James P. Dugan: My father was a construction worker. He was an operating engineer, and he was a supervisor inthat capacity. He had some really interesting jobs: the construction of the third tube of the Lincoln Tunnel, the NewYork Aqueduct. I used to go with him, because he had to check out things on the weekends, see the machinery. Hewas very conscientious. He would go there on off hours, and I would go with him. I used to go down into thebowels of the earth, so to speak, with my father. It was fascinating. And he was a good provider and a wonderfulman.

Q: And you were one of how many children?

James P. Dugan: Four.

Q: And what number were you?

James P. Dugan: I was number two.

Q: What is the ethnic background of the Dugan family?

James P. Dugan: Well, as you may have suspected, it was pretty much Irish, both of them. My mother's maidenname was Parks.

Q: Were your parents born in this country?

James P. Dugan: They were. And my grandparents, with the exception of my fraternal grandfather, were born heretoo. He was born in Ireland .

Q: Was Bayonne largely Irish in those days?

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James P. Dugan: We had ethnic conclaves that clustered around the different churches. There was a large Polish,large Italian, Irish, German. There were different churches, Catholic churches, that these different ethniccommunities gravitated to.

Q: Did you go to public or parochial school?

James P. Dugan: I went to parochial grammar school, and I went to St. Peter's Prep in Jersey City , a Jesuit prepschool, which I always preface, or I always continue the many descriptions of St. Peter's Prep as the best learningexperience I've ever had. The Jesuits were marvelous teachers, strict disciplinarians, and the curriculum we had waschallenging. We had four years of Latin, four years of math. It was a great preparation for college.

Q: Where did you go to college?

James P. Dugan: The University of Missouri .

Q: Why there?

James P. Dugan: I wanted to go away. We didn't have the kind of money that would have qualified me for entranceinto one of the Ivy League schools. And intellectually, I couldn't have gotten there either. I went there and I had agreat time, and it was a good education. I was pleased with it.

Q: Did you go right to law school thereafter?

James P. Dugan: No. I enlisted in the Marine Corps. I got a commission.

Q: Why did you enlist in the Marines?

James P. Dugan: Well, there was a draft at that time, but it really wasn't the principal motivation I had. It soundskind of awkward to say that I thought I had to. The country had been very good to me, and I thought I wassupposed to go and bear arms in their defense.

Q: Did you bear arms?

James P. Dugan: I did indeed.

Q: Where, Korea ?

James P. Dugan: In Korea .

Q: I read in your bio that you were wounded in Korea .

James P. Dugan: Yeah.

Q: Seriously wounded? How badly?

James P. Dugan: Well, when I got back to our own MLR, our main line of resistance, there was an attack that I ledon a Chinese outpost. But by the time I got back, I was helped on a stretcher and so on. I went to a MASH unit, andI'm sure you've seen M*A*S*H, and you know the opening scene, as the helicopters came in with the woundedstrapped to the outside in these glass boxes. Well, I had the fun in being in one of those glass boxes. Then I went toa hospital ship. Then I went to Japan , then to Hawaii . And I wound up in St. Albans Naval Hospital in Long Island.

Q: How long was your convalescence?

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James P. Dugan: Oh, I guess five months.

Q: Let's go back to your childhood for a minute. You say your mother was very involved as a localcommitteewoman. To what extent did she involve you in what she was up to?

James P. Dugan: We had great communications in our family, something that families miss now, and certain myfamily does. Every night, we had supper together. When my father came home from work, he washed up. We all satdown, my three sisters and I, and my mother and father, and the communications were natural. We discussedeverything.

Q: What were her politics?

James P. Dugan: She was a Democrat. She never had a political job or a public sector job. She just took care of thefamily and did the other things that she did. I suppose middle of the road Democrat.

Q: Roosevelt Democrat?

James P. Dugan: Yeah. I mean, he did a great deal for the generation of my father and mother. I remember theWPA and all the other things that the '30s brought, and how dominant Roosevelt was, and how anything thathappened was because he initiated it, or seemed to initiate it.

Q: He was a popular figure in your household?

James P. Dugan: Very much so.

Q: You've come back from the war, then you go to law school?

James P. Dugan: Yeah. I worked for a year in construction, because the timing was bad. I got out of the MarineCorps too late to start law school, so I worked for almost a year before I went. I went to Fordham University lawschool. I continued working in construction during college, law school summers and vacations and so on. I guesshaving had the political or the public service stimulus that I had all my life, I got involved in politics with a lawyernamed Francis Fitzpatrick. He was the family lawyer. He took care of the wills and things of that nature. He was anadmirable guy, honest as the day is long. And, you know, in Hudson County sometimes, you were thought of asbeing something other than that. But he was as straight as an arrow, and we had the commission form ofgovernment, where five commissioners were elected, and they chose one of their own to be the mayor. The othersdivided up administratively the duties of running the city. But it really didn't work out. It was just chock full ofpolitics that stifled development and change. So Fitzpatrick ran for the commission form of government with histicket.

Q: What year are we talking about, roughly?

James P. Dugan: In the mid '60s.

Q: Mid '60s, okay.

James P. Dugan: Since I was in law school, or had just graduated and was clerking, I had enough time to spend onhis campaign.

Q: Mid '60s or mid 50's?

James P. Dugan: Sixties.

Q: Sixties, okay, go ahead.

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James P. Dugan: Some time in the '60s. Maybe it was earlier than mid. It's been a long time, Mike. So I went withFitzpatrick all through his campaign, and it was a revelation about how things should not be done.

Q: Like what?

James P. Dugan: Oh, it was just a comedy of errors. There was no organization. All they had was the presence ofFrank Fitzpatrick, who was kind of dominating, and a running mate named George Prendeville [sp?], who was theRepublican part of the ticket, and three others who were just kind of fill ins. Well, in any event, after a vigorouscampaign, Fitzpatrick and Prendeville were elected. Two candidates from another ticket were elected, and onecandidate from a third was elected. Fitzpatrick and Prendeville couldn't make the deal to get one of the other three,so that they would be members of the majority and assume the mayor's role. So that happened, and shortly afterelection, I showed up at Fitzpatrick's law office, as I was wont to do, and we talked. I said, "What I think you oughtto do, Commissioner, is start a campaign to elect charter commissioners to examine the Bayonne municipal charter,and make recommendations of changing the form of government if appropriate." That was under the Faulkner Act.I think Jersey City had done that, went through that same process, the year before. So I can remember him saying,"I've only been in the job for three of four months, and you want to kick me out." I said, "No, Commissioner, I wantyou to be the mayor. I want the government to change. It's clear to me that that's what should happen." So he saidokay, and we put together a slate of five, got the petitions and got the referendum on the ballot. I'll tell you when itwas. Jack Kennedy, when he ran, that was the year we were on the ballot.

Q: Nineteen sixty.

James P. Dugan: Yeah. And we won. The referendum passed, and our five were selected as the chartercommissioners. I ran that campaign. I was chosen as the chairman, and we had hearings for six months. Leteverybody have a shot at coming in and trying to persuade us what we should do. And then we made arecommendation that we change the form of government to strong mayor, council. That was put on the ballot and itwon overwhelmingly. Then we had an election, the first election under that form of government, and I ran thatcampaign. Now Commissioner Fitzpatrick became Mayor Fitzpatrick. We elected all five council candidates andthe mayor. We were on a roll.

Q: What role did you play in the mayor's administration?

James P. Dugan: I was appointed director of the department of law. As such, I was very close to everything thatwas being done, governmentally in Bayonne .

Q: Was Fitzpatrick a good mayor?

James P. Dugan: Excellent, excellent.

Q: How long did he serve?

James P. Dugan: He served for eight years. He could have run again without significant opposition, but he chosenot to. And during that eight years, we managed to make alliances with Paul Jordan, who was the reform mayor ofJersey City , and Frank Rogers, who was the longest serving mayor in the history of the country, I suppose,according to him. He was the mayor of Harrison , but he had political influence, control, over the western part ofthe county. Then we started to do things-- we were able to do things on a state and national level, because MayorFitzpatrick then became the county chairman.

Q: When we think about Hudson County , we think about the political bosses of that era, and the era preceding,Frank Hague, John V. Kenny. Where did Frank Fitzpatrick and you and Frank Rogers fit in to that legacy?

James P. Dugan: It was a new day, absolutely. Politics is constantly evolving. I can remember, years later, when Iwas a member of the constitutional convention that dealt with the one man, one vote, and how I thought there were

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going to be significant political consequences to the implementation of that notion. And indeed, there was. But itwas a completely different era. Frank Fitzpatrick had nothing in common with Mayor Hague, or Mayor Kenny. Idon’t say that in condemnation. I never met Hague. Mayor Kenny, I met him a number of times, and I served oneterm in the Assembly during his term as county chairman. He never asked or suggested that I do anything improper.

Q: Was he county chairman both before and after Fitzpatrick?

James P. Dugan: No, he was before.

Q: He was before.

James P. Dugan: Yeah.

Q: So if people think that Kenny and Hague were corrupt, what do you say?

James P. Dugan: Well, I don't know. They did a lot of good things, but Hague was never convicted of anything, Idon’t think. Kenny, I think, pled to some things that were not particularly shocking, but nevertheless, he wasconvicted of wrongdoing. That's his legacy.

Q: Was your team thought of as reformers?

James P. Dugan: I think so, yeah.

Q: Were you considered weaker than the bosses that came before and after you?

James P. Dugan: On the contrary.

Q: How so? How were you regarded?

James P. Dugan: Any of these offices, they're what you make of them, what the incumbent makes of them. You canbe a county chairman and have a little influence on events, at that time. On the other hand, you could be a countychairman who dominated the political landscape within the county and beyond. And that's what we hoped to do. Asevents unfolded, we did do that.

Q: How does a county chair who wants to make of the office quite a bit, how does he achieve that? How does hewield power?

James P. Dugan: I think one of the things you have to do is, you have to be a straight arrow. Because if you're goingto engage in marginal things that are questionable, both legally and ethically, you're exposed to such an extent thatthat kind of conduct on your part breeds a continuation of that by others. Before you know it, you have a corruptorganization, as well as being corrupt yourself. In Bayonne , we were pretty-- even before Fitzpatrick, we werepretty straight. Bayonne is a peninsula and it's somewhat isolated, both geographically and politically. The slogan Ican earliest remember, is "Home rule not Hague rule." Anybody that ran for office in Bayonne had to have that ashis or her escutcheon, "Home rule not Hague rule." And we didn't want the county messing in our affairs.

Q: I'm a little vague on the timeline here. Hague was the boss in what year, the '30s and '40s? Forties and '50s?

James P. Dugan: John V. Kenny won a big election in 1949.

Q: For mayor of Jersey City ?

James P. Dugan: Yes. Because I can remember the '49ers. That's what they used to call themselves. He served oneterm, but there were several terms thereafter served by mayors who were beholden to Mayor Kenny.

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Q: But you said earlier that Kenny succeeded Fitzpatrick at county chairman.

James P. Dugan: No, no, preceded.

Q: Preceded. Okay. So it went Hague, Kenny, Fitzpatrick, with maybe something in between.

James P. Dugan: Yeah. In between, there was Mayor Whelan of Jersey City , and Tom Gangemi, who was alsomayor of Jersey City who, when he had a falling out with Kenny, it was discovered that he wasn't a citizen. He wasdisqualified from continuing to serve as mayor. So he left office.

Q: What was the ethnic makeup of Hudson County ?

James P. Dugan: It was an ethnic mix.

Q: Who was dominant?

James P. Dugan: Irish, Italian, Slavic, Polish. Mostly European immigrants and their children. Ethnicity was a bigthing, as I said, gave you the example about the churches. Mount Carmel Catholic Church, they would have massesin Polish. I can remember going to Mount Carmel church. They had one of the most brilliant choirmasters, and thechoir that he produced in that church was just spectacular. It was a pleasure going there and listening to them. TheAssumption church had a 95 percent Italian-American congregation. And there were a number of synagogues too,that we had in Bayonne, a sizable Jewish community.

Q: To what extent did Fitzpatrick have to balance ticket ethnically?

James P. Dugan: It was a gesture that was made. I don’t know how necessary it was. But everybody wants to beassociated with their government. One of the ways to do it in an ethnic community like that is to have somebodywith Polish extraction, an Italian-American, an Irish-American. The Irish survive not by their wits and not theirnumbers in Hudson County . I think there was nothing wrong with that, having ethnic/political balance on a ticket.

Q: Do you remember any particular candidate that was brought onto a ticket for ethnic reasons?

James P. Dugan: Of course not. That was a minor consideration.

Q: Fitzpatrick had been mayor and county chairman for a number of years, and then you went into the legislature.Is that correct?

James P. Dugan: Yeah. Not too long.

Q: Not too long? Two or four years into his time?

James P. Dugan: Yeah.

Q: What year did you first run for the legislature?

James P. Dugan: I think it was '69.

Q: You ran for the Assembly?

James P. Dugan: I did.

Q: An open seat? Or you had to knock off an incumbent in a primary?

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James P. Dugan: There was a change.

Q: The incumbent was told he wouldn't be backed?

James P. Dugan: I think he decided to retire.

Q: And why did you want to go to Trenton?

James P. Dugan: I thought I could do a lot of good things. I thought-- I very much wanted to do that. I reallywanted to be in the Senate, but I couldn't pull that off.

Q: Do you remember who the senator was in those days from your district?

James P. Dugan: We had a senator serving at large for a while. There was Billy Musto, Bill Kelley and Fred Hauserand Frank Guarini. Their terms may have overlapped a little bit, but those are the four. I served with Bill Kelley,Billy Musto and Frank Rogers.

Q: What was the legislature like when you were first elected?

James P. Dugan: It was a new experience, and a new area in which to operate. We were in the minority, so youcould get up and make a speech, object to anything you wanted to, without any great consequence, so it was a greatpractice. But I thought the people were pretty well motivated. As a matter of fact, a little earlier today, ChipColeman was mentioned, and he was a Republican-- he was the Republican chairman of the appropriationscommittee. I wanted to get on that because I wanted to see how you raise the money and where it went. I was veryimpressed with him, and he used to lecture me on my shortcomings for the first year or so until I straightened outand did things that were satisfactory to him. I say that somewhat facetiously, but it was a great learning experience.But it didn't have the decorum, and you weren't able to, even those people in the majority, didn't seem to be able tocontrol things as much as I would have liked to if I was in the majority.

Q: You said you went down there because you thought you could do good things. You said it in such a way toimply more or less what you've just said, which is that it's very difficult to get anything done. Is that what Iunderstand you to be saying?

James P. Dugan: Yeah. Unless you know the system and you develop the skills to gather the votes necessary to getanything done. I'd like to think I was a pretty quick study, so when I went to the Senate for a two year term, againwe were in the minority. And Dick Coffee was in the minority too. He was a member of the minority, and EdCrabiel. There were nine or ten of us out of 40. That was a great learning experience too. And I had a goodrelationship with Bill Cahill, who was the governor at that time. I found myself as the token Democrat at manyMorven dinners, where Governor Cahill would regale us with stories and so on, on St. Patrick's Day and other days.

Q: How did you develop this relationship with Cahill?

James P. Dugan: I really don't know. We just got along well together. As a matter of fact, when he lost the primaryto Charlie Sandman, I went in to see him, to see Bill Cahill, and I told him, as the likely next Democratic statechairman, I was delighted that he wasn't running. I said, "As a citizen of the state, I'm sorry that you lost," because Ithought he was a good guy.

Q: Might your tie to Cahill have anything to do with the fact that from earlier interviews we've done, we've beentold that Hudson County supported Cahill over Meyner in running for governor in '69?

James P. Dugan: No, no. But Cahill did appoint me to constitutional convention for reapportionment of the statelegislature, the one man, one vote. I served on a couple of commissions. But Cahill would ask the county leadershipif they had nominees, and a lot of people just didn't care to serve on those things. I volunteered and I got to know

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him maybe during those years.

Michael Aron: So Dick Coffee called you back.

James P. Dugan: Yes.

Q: And said okay.

James P. Dugan: Yes.

Q: And that must've been a joyous night.

James P. Dugan: It was, it was. Now we had an organization, and a consultant, and a lot of debt.

Q: And how about Ed Crabiel, did you do a similar exercise with him?

James P. Dugan: Yes, we--.

<Crew talk>

James P. Dugan: Ed had a younger brother who he was very close to and who was the operational politician. Heserved as the director of the Board of Freeholders in Middlesex, and Dave Crabiel, and maybe somebody else who Ican't remember. But Fitzpatrick and Crabiel had a good relationship, they had an affinity for one another. Theywere about the same age and they were in politics a long time and had gone through the drill. And this was Ed's,what he had worked and aspired to all of his political life, a shot at being governor. And he probably would've beena decent governor but again I didn't think he would be electable, in the setting that I anticipated; that is, that he'drun against Bill Cahill and Cahill wouldn't have problems that would have a negative impact on him. So we had acouple of meetings with Ed-- I know that for sure-- and we finally had- the last meeting we had was in a restaurant,a motel/hotel, in like a ballroom, and somewhere in Middlesex Country or Union County; it was right off theparkway. And I can remember we didn't have a room. So I got somebody at the- the assistant manger or somethinglike that. I said, "Put us anywhere." He said, " Ill put you in the ballroom." And I said, "Is there any table?" And hesaid, "Yeah, there's a table in there and few chairs." I remember there was one less chair than there was participants,in this big ballroom, and we were sitting at a table; of course I deferred to everybody and I stood. And we had anuts and bolts talk, and Ed wanted to know what if he went with us? And I said, "Ed, Mayor Fitzpatrick knows youand appreciates your skills and value, and there'll be a significant place at the table for you, and I wouldn't beworried. If you want to part of the Byrne administration I am sure that you'll be brought in and serve in somecapacity that you want." I said, "But no promises because we can't do that." And he said, "I understand," andblah-blah-blah. And it was tough for him to say--.

Q: Let me stop you right there. Would it have been unethical or immoral or illegal to have said, "And you'll be oursecretary of state if you--."

James P. Dugan: It would be questionable, yes. And I don't take chances like that because you're not supposed topromise an office to gain support. Now I don't know if a lawyer with more talent than I have can argue his way outof that, but it's not only possibly illegal, possibly unethical, but certainly it's a good thing to say, it gets you off thehook. And they understand too because nobody wants to be involved gratuitously in something that's going to getthem in trouble. And what I said to him was true; I mean, a guy like Ed Crabiel has a world of experience andanybody would be a fool not to have him involved in his administration.

Q: A sitting state senator.

James P. Dugan: Yes.

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Q: He was a sitting state senator.

James P. Dugan: Yes. And his wife, who was a lovely person, she really wanted to-- it kind of broke her heart onEd, because she was the one person in the state that was absolutely sure he was going to be elected. And she was alovely person and--.

Q: So how did he throw his support to you? In that conversation?

James P. Dugan: Yes.

Q: He said okay?

James P. Dugan: Yes.

Q: Was Brendan there do you know?

James P. Dugan: Yes-- no Brendan was not there.

Q: Was Fitzpatrick there?

James P. Dugan: Yes.

Q: You said that Fitzpatrick and Ed Crabiel had a real good rapport.

James P. Dugan: I guess-- I'm pretty sure Brendan was not there. Yes, I think in that final meeting-- I know weprobably had a meeting with Brendan, but in the final meeting I think Ed or Dave Crabiel specifically asked forFitzpatrick to be there.

Q: You talked about the good relationship between Fitzpatrick and Crabiel, and yet Fitzpatrick threw his backingand yours to- or you threw yours to Byrne. Pure political calculation on who can beat Cahill in the fall, is that whatwas at work there?

James P. Dugan: Well Brendan was the best candidate, under any circumstances, in my judgment; the best availableor the best one among the aspirers to the office. And he has a lot of charm, Brendan. He's a different kind ofpersonality, but I think we got along fine, at that point.

Q: At that point. So he goes on to win the primary.

Man 1: What was the __________ again?

Q: We'll get there. Usually parties, at least in this day and age, the major parties reorganize right after a primary.Did the Democratic Party reorganize, state Democratic Party reorganize…

James P. Dugan: Yes.

Q: …right after the primary and elect you as chairman?

James P. Dugan: I offered myself as a candidate and was accepted.

Q: And did you offer yourself with Brendan Byrne’s vocal backing or…

James P. Dugan: Oh sure.

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Q: …implied backing?

James P. Dugan: Brendan and I were on the same page.

Q: Did you have any opposition? Somebody else want it, somebody else go for it?

James P. Dugan: I don't think it was contested.

Q: Why did you want to be State Party Chairman?

James P. Dugan: Well for a number of reasons. I didn't aspire to be governor. I liked the political process. I wantedto have, in that office, meaningful participation in the selection of the Democratic nominee for President.

Q: That was still three years away.

James P. Dugan: I know. But I just- I thought it was an office you could do a lot with.

Q: Was it?

James P. Dugan: Yes. Yes.

Q: Like in terms of party building?

James P. Dugan: Yes.

Q: Or recruiting candidates?

James P. Dugan: Yes. And the State Chairman's Association was kind of a fun involvement with-- and I made a lotof interesting contacts, politically, in that organization.

Q: That's the national- 50 state chairs.

James P. Dugan: Yes, yes.

Q: Well Cahill didn't win on…

James P. Dugan: Yes.

Q: …primary night. Let me step back for one second. You said you didn't aspire to be governor and you liked thepolitical process you said. If you were from a county other than Hudson , would you have had a better chance ofrunning for governor, do you think?

James P. Dugan: Well first you have to want to do it and I didn't want to do it. But hypothetically?

Q: Yes.

James P. Dugan: Yes, you would've had a better chance.

Q: Because of Hudson 's reputation.

James P. Dugan: Yes. And I can remember going down to the Assembly, and I had to be there at least a year beforethey didn't think, my fellows in the Assembly, knew I didn't have two heads and that I was pretty decent, fairlyarticulate and a straight arrow.

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Q: How did Hudson get this reputation?

James P. Dugan: Oh I don't know. These self-inflicted wounds are difficult to determine how they got that way. Butthey did, and you as a member of the Fourth Estate is probably responsible for a good part of that.

Q: No we're not responsible, just instrumental maybe.

James P. Dugan: Well I remember having a meeting with the editorial board of The Record, Bergen Record, wellnow The Record, and I asked for that meeting because Paul Jordan was going to run for governor, at one time. Andhe was really beaten up, only-- he was a physician, he was a reformer, but nevertheless he was the Mayor of JerseyCity and from Hudson County . And that's the way it appeared. And I asked for an appearance with the editor. Sothey had the editorial board there and I went and was interviewed for them, and they said, "Well Jim, what do youwant to do?" And I said, "Well I'm really distressed by the fact that if my name or Paul Jordan's or anybody else inHudson County is mentioned, it's like having you write 'Paul Jordan, Mayor of Jersey City, Hudson County , notyet indicted'." And I said, "That's the attitude that comes clearly across from the way you handle anything aboutHudson County ." And, "Well no, no, no." But I had done my homework and I had pulled editorials out and showedthem how-- that's the way they were. And maybe that's not epidemic, maybe not everybody does it, but there's a lotof bad raps that Hudson County public officials get by the Fourth Estate.

Q: You called them self-inflicted wounds. You mean that people within Hudson County politics go astray…

James P. Dugan: Yes.

Q: …and therefore wound everybody?

James P. Dugan: Yes, they do, and that's visited on all of us.

Q: What does the state party chairman do?

James P. Dugan: Well it's not really a fundraising job. If it was I wouldn't have accepted. I think that Alan Sagnerwas our treasurer. Do you know Alan?

Q: Yes.

James P. Dugan: Very savvy guy and--.

Q: We've interviewed Alan for this--.

James P. Dugan: Have you?

Q: Yes.

James P. Dugan: It was something-- asking people for money is something that I really don't enjoy, but all the otherthings that go with the office I do enjoy, the putting things together. I can remember in the legislature puttingtogether a re-districting plan, and because I was the state chairman I was able to have resources that could do thework necessary to draw the maps and everything else, and I had a good staff, Tom O'Neill and Dan Horgan, AnnCampbell, a lot of good people. I didn't think it was tolerable for the State of New Jersey not to have anAfro-American congressman. I thought that was disgraceful, especially when there were so many in Newark and itsperiphery that it was a natural, and they should have a voice in it. And it was a difficult thing to pull off becausePeter Rodino was very concerned about it. I assured him that the map would ensure his election for as long as hewanted and he was protected and blah-blah-blah. One of the other congressmen, Joe--.

Q: Minish.

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James P. Dugan: Joe Minish, was violent about it, in his objection to this, and he had the ear of Brendan. Andnevertheless I persisted and I got the bill passed in the Senate, and it went over to the Assembly and never reachedthe light of day, notwithstanding the fact that Howard Woodson was the Speaker.

Q: Who put the kibosh on it, Brendan?

James P. Dugan: Somebody else that you interview might be able to enlighten you. But in any event, that's whathappened. And re-districting and things like that are something that I'm interested in. But that particularly frustratedme and I don't take frustration very gracefully.

Q: How about in national politics, what does the state chairman- how does a state chairman get involved in nationalpolitics?

James P. Dugan: Well I can tell you how this state chairman got involved. Jesse Unruh was the speaker of theCalifornia Assembly, I think. Pat Cunningham was the State Chairman in New York . The Texas Senator, I think heran for president or vice-president.

Q: Lloyd Bentsen.

James P. Dugan: Lloyd Bentsen, yes, and a couple of other people who thought they could control delegations,presidential primary delegations in their state. We had a meeting in Chicago . It was not called specifically for thatbut we were all there, and we talked about the prospects of the next presidential primary and how it looked likethere might be a deadlock, because I didn't think anybody was rushing to the forefront-- this is the Jimmy Carterdebacle-- and we were supposed to- Lloyd Bentsen was supposed to be the favorite son, from Texas, had thedelegates pledged to him. Pat Cunningham was supposed to have the New York delegates, and the rest of thepeople that participated in that. And I thought it was possible that we could do the same thing in New Jersey . And Italked to Brendan about it, that he could've been the favorite son, but he didn't aspire to that or- for whateverreasons. And we didn't have a violent disagreement but he wanted to go one way and I wanted to go another, andultimately he endorsed Jimmy Carter. And I had put together an uncommitted slate, led by Pete Williams, PeteRodino, a lot of the de facto leaders throughout the state, people that would be in a class of super delegates today,and we put together a slate and we went on the ballot and we put together an uncommitted slate of delegates. Nowwe were committed, in a real sense, to Hubert Humphrey, but he was the reluctant warrior and he didn't- he couldn'tbring himself to announcing that he was a candidate. And as a matter of fact he really let us down and we had a-- Ican remember a conference call I had with him and John Farmer, I think it was, who was raising money for him,and a couple of other people. And he had told me the night before that he'd let me know in the morning. And hedid, he called and said, "Jim, I fell like a real-- blank-- but I'm not going to run." He said, "Muriel and I talked itover and I'm not going to run." And I had a sense that that might be the case so--. And I said, "When are you goingto announce?" He said, "At eleven o'clock . I'm calling a press conference." So I called a press conference inTrenton , in the State House at eleven o'clock too. And he announced that he was not going to run. But before thattelephone conversation ended I said, "Well Senator let me ask a favor of you." I said, "We're stuck with this. I wantto raise enough money so that we can do this and I'd like your help." And he was a guy that when he showed up inthe room, the lights went on, and he was a brilliant speaker and just a great guy. So he said, "Okay Jim." He said,"How many appearances do you want?" I said, "Oh three or four." And he did, he committed to that, showed up inCamden and different points in the state, and helped us raise a lot of money. And so at my press conference I said,"Not withstanding the fact that Senator Humphrey has withdrawn, I feel that the likelihood or the possibility of himreconsidering is good and we're going forward with our plans." And our delegates started to get uneasy. And PeteRodino, was the aide, said, "Jim, I've reconsidered" and blah-blah-blah, "and it's okay." So Charlie Marciante cameonboard what was perceived as the sinking ship. He was the AFL/CIO president at that time. So I was in Las Vegason-- an infrequent trip, I haven't been there in ten years-- but I was there and I read in the newspaper that JerryBrown, the Governor of California, was going to be in the Las Vegas airport the following afternoon and at somekind of a meeting. So I called him, I called his office up and said, "I want to meet you." Because he was runningand he had done great in Maryland and a couple of other primaries, and he was a real hot candidate at that time. SoI met him and we made arrangements to meet in New York , about a week later. And I went over and I had a

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meeting with him. It was at some designer's party who was throwing a- who was doing a fundraiser for thegovernor, Governor Brown. And I told him the same thing, that we'd give him a forum and it was too late for him tobe on the ballot but if he wanted to come in and campaign for the uncommitted slate we would remember it, and ifit was appropriate and things worked out, we could easily support him at the convention. So he said okay. So thereI am, now I had two candidates. And he came in-- he did a number of events for us-- and it turns out that we electedabout 85 delegates and Jimmy Carter, who had Brendan's support, elected 25. So we went to the convention with 85delegates, and that smoke-filled room that we were talking about earlier, with all these other people, it wasn'tavailable. But it was an interesting migration.

Q: We haven't gotten all that far because you're a good storyteller. What if we break now and you come back andwe start talking about the campaign of '73?

James P. Dugan: Okay.

Michael Aron: It’s the afternoon of April 20th, 2009. I’m Michael Aron of NJN News. We are at the EagleInstitute, on the New Brunswick campus of Rutgers University, continuing our interview for the Rutgers Programon the Governor, specifically for the Brendan T. Byrne Archive. This afternoon, we’re going to continue aconversation we began a while ago with Jim Dugan. Jim was a state senator from Hudson County, at about the timethat Governor Byrne was coming up in state politics. Jim was chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Ibelieve. He was instrumental in helping get Brendan Byrne elected in 1973. He became state Democratic chairmanright after the primary of that year, and we’re going to hear more from him about the ensuing years.

Jim, we did the first part of this discussion with you probably a little over a year ago. I believe we left off atroughly the point where you were elected state party chairman, right after Brendan Byrne’s win in the primary, inJune of ’73. The Republicans that night nominated Congressman Sandman to be their nominee for governor. Wasthe election effectively decided, the fall election, that night?

James P. Dugan: It was, it was.

Q: Why, how?

James P. Dugan: Charlie Sandman just didn’t have-- he wasn’t cosmopolitan enough to win an election in NewJersey. I mean, he had a-- not a conservative, but a reactionary agenda. And I just couldn’t see-- I was surprisedwhen Bill Cahill lost the primary. I didn’t think the Republican Party was capable of savaging their governor, who Ithought did a good job, to the extent that he-- that they did.

Q: Would Cahill have been a difficult challenge for Brendan Byrne in November?

James P. Dugan: Oh, I think so, I think so. He was well motivated, and he had a lot of the same issues that Brendanhad, and Dick Hughes had, before him. Specifically, all three of them were advocates for an income tax that all thethinking people in the state knew had to come to pass. It was time.

Q: Did you know it?

James P. Dugan: Bill Cahill?

Q: No, did you know that an income tax was inevitable?

James P. Dugan: Oh, sure. Sure. But that’s not to say that other people didn’t share that view. And the “one man,one vote” doctrine that was implemented in this state, and resulted in these smaller conclaves-- 40 senate districts,and 80 assembly districts, or, 40 legislative districts, rather-- some of them had a constituency that just couldn’taccept the concept of an income tax. And it took some courage for many legislators to vote against what the-- whatthey thought their constituents would insist on. And so, we had a tough time getting it through. There were matters

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of style, in terms of how the income tax would be written: whether it would be simply designed to address theneeds, the financial needs of the state; or, it would be a social document, such as our federal income tax, with aplethora of exemptions and different social agendas that the drafters had. I was for a much simpler program, apiggyback, modest, income tax because-- for a couple of reasons: one, I thought that was what was neededimmediately, and I thought that was what would be acceptable to a majority of the people in the legislature.

Q: Is that what we got?

James P. Dugan: That’s what you got. It’s not very recognizable at this time, but that’s what we got at that time.And it just resulted in an explosion of spending by the successor legislators and governors.

Q: What role did you play in the general-election campaign of ’73?

James P. Dugan: Well, I did the usual organizational things, but there was a spirit of-- well, let me get back to BillCahill. After the primary, I was in the State House, and I went in to see him. And I told him that I wanted to comeand offer my regrets that his party had denied him the nomination, because I thought that he was an excellentgovernor, and that he would have been a real competitor, in terms of the discussion as to who should be thegovernor: whether he or Brendan should. And I said, “But, setting that aside, the light of-- as the new Democraticstate chairman, that he’s out of the picture.” And, I truly felt that way. And, there was a malaise that was over theRepublic Party after they woke up, and said, “What have we done to ourselves?” And it was a foregone conclusion,in my mind, that this campaign was going to be a piece of cake.

Q: Was it?

James P. Dugan: I think so.

Q: What do you remember about it? Anything?

James P. Dugan: Well, I remember how Brendan developed as a candidate from the very awkward presence that hehad when he first announced for governor, to how he developed during the campaign. The style that he developed,and his personal-- his personality came through. He was a very likeable guy. And he had great credentials, and heproved to be an excellent candidate.

Q: So you saw growth in that six-month period?

James P. Dugan: Yeah. He has continued to grow in the intervening years. He certainly wasn’t as effective a publicspeaker or a public official in those years as he later became.

Q: You had affection for Cahill?

James P. Dugan: I did.

Q: Did he make any mistakes in the primary, other than being saddled with a couple of scandals involving people inhis administration?

James P. Dugan: That, and any governor that was an advocate of an income tax was burdened by that-- the honestyof the proposition of an income tax.

Q: Do you remember whether Byrne and Sandman debated?

James P. Dugan: I’m not sure.

Q: Do you remember where you were on election night, November, ’73?

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James P. Dugan: I can’t recall.

Q: Were you part of Byrne’s inner circle in that campaign?

James P. Dugan: I think so. But the primary campaign and the general-election campaign had a different cast of--had a different staff, a different mission, and the-- there were differences that were necessary. And, frankly, theexcitement of the primary campaign was much greater and much more interesting for the participants than thegeneral-election campaign. The general-election campaign you have-- you bring in staff that go from campaign toanother, and that’s their political life. The primary campaign is much looser, much more amateurish, much morepassionate, in terms of the people that are involved.

Q: Who placed second behind Brendan Byrne? Do you recall?

James P. Dugan: I think Ann Klein.

Q: During the general-election campaign, it’s well remembered that Brendan Byrne said he saw no need for anincome tax in the foreseeable future. Do you remember what your reaction to that was?

James P. Dugan: I thought Brendan ought to see his optometrist, and have a change in his prescription. You know,a lot of things are said that candidates are prompted to say, and it’s not exactly a reflection of what they truly feel.

Q: What did you do for Brendan Byrne in that campaign? You said “organizing.” What does a state chairmanwho’s a sitting member of the legislature of the upper house-- what does he do during a four- or five-monthgeneral-election campaign? What did you do?

James P. Dugan: Well, I helped in selecting the people that were going to be responsible for the financing of thecampaign. Alan Sagner comes to mind as one of them. He was a very effective, very valuable member of thatcampaign staff. Very effective, and the state committee had a lot of-- had a number of people who were excellentorganizers, Dan Horgan, for one, who met an untimely death. He had an excellent organization, and he was one ofthe best organizers that I’ve seen during my career. And people like Dick Leone were brought in to represent thatthink-tank division of the Democratic Party. And there was an amalgram of a lot of different people representing alot of different Democratic constituencies that all seemed to pull together.

Q: After Byrne won, were there any conflicts over appointments, over patronage appointments?

James P. Dugan: Of course not. This was an exercise in good government, and that was the only qualification for anappointment. I say that facetiously. There are always people that deserve consideration, that have talent to do-- tofill different governmental offices, and there’s always competition. I think that would be natural, and there are defacto Democratic leaders throughout the state that felt that they were entitled to consideration in terms of therecommendations that they would make to fill a lot of different offices. But it’s only natural.

Q: Hudson County, your county, was very instrumental in steering, swinging the primary battle to Byrne. DidHudson feel it got its fair share of appointments coming out of the election?

James P. Dugan: Probably not; nobody ever feels they go their fair share. But objectively looking at it, yeah, I thinkthey were satisfied.

Q: Do you remember any particular Hudson appointment?

James P. Dugan: Well, someone that I was very close to was appointed as chairman of the Turnpike Authority,which at that time, was a much bigger and more important job than what it is now.

Q: Who was that?

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James P. Dugan: Mayor Fitzpatrick, Francis Fitzpatrick.

Q: Of Bayonne?

James P. Dugan: Of Bayonne, yes. And he was the Democratic chairman when-- who gave the line to Brendan inthe primary. And I’m sure if I had some time to recollect, I could see-- I could mention others that filled offices. Iwas from Hudson County, and I was the Democratic state chairman, and had a considerable role in judicial andother nominations as chairman of the Judiciary Committee.

Q: You referred to Dick Leone as coming out of the “think-tank” wing of the party. Were there other people whocame out of that wing?

James P. Dugan: Lew Kaden, and I think they were the two. It was always-- you mentioned both names in the samesentence, usually, when you were talking about politics in the Brendan Administration.

Q: And was there friction between them and the more traditional Democratic political figures?

James P. Dugan: Sure. Yeah. Naturally so. They-- it was a different exercise for each of those-- each of theadvocates for that perspective. The think-tankers, who had a social agenda, as I’ve said before, and the politicalpeople who wanted to participate meaningfully in government. They weren’t so much interested in the theoreticalas they were in the practical aspects of giving the kind of government that people expected, in terms of efficiencyand economy.

Q: Did Leone and Kaden try to keep you out of the decision-making process?

James P. Dugan: You’d have to ask them. If they did, they weren’t very successful because they had little influencein the legislature during Brendan’s term.

Q: There were Democratic majorities?

James P. Dugan: Yes.

Q: Was there resentment against Leone and Kaden in the legislature?

James P. Dugan: Well, I don’t know resentment. I wouldn’t want to attribute that word. There were differences, asis not unusual.

Q: I got the sense that at some point-- and I don’t know where I get this sense; just from being around for a longtime-- that you and either Brendan Byrne and those people we were just talking about parted ways, that you hadyour agenda and they had theirs, and that somehow, there was a parting of the ways. Am I correct or incorrect?

James P. Dugan: Well, I think we both had the same agenda, but it was-- I think I was more pragmatic than theywere, and my approach to accomplishing what our common agenda was.

Q: What was the common agenda?

James P. Dugan: The common agenda was an income tax, and what we had to do was get 21 votes in the Senate,and 41 in the Assembly. Okay. And that’s what we had to do. And we can talk all day long about the aspects of anincome tax, and all of the other things that influenced that discussion. But it was a very basic political exercise ingetting those votes, and it was not easy. And some of the early income-tax proposals just didn’t fly. And they wererecognizably propositions that wouldn’t fly.

Q: Why? They were too complicated? They tried to do too much?

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James P. Dugan: Some of them; yeah. Yeah, and the Assembly was much more liberal and influenced by maybe a--the leadership in the Assembly during those years was quite liberal. And they wanted an income tax with a lot ofbells and whistles on it. And that just wouldn’t fly in the senate. And they didn’t want to-- my recollection is thatthe Assembly really didn’t want to have the Senate leadership join them in putting together something that wouldpass. And--

Q: They didn’t want it to pass?

James P. Dugan: No, they didn’t want-- they wanted pride of authorship, I suppose, in this income-tax bill that theywere putting in, without any input from the senate.

Q: Remember who the Speaker was at that time?

James P. Dugan: I know Joe LeFante, Hudson County. As a matter of fact, he was my Assembly-- for my Assemblydistrict. Bill Hamilton, Al Burstein: they were all influential in putting together the assembly version of what anincome tax should be. And in the Senate, we had Pat Dodd, who was the president, and me, and a number of otherswho were less enthusiastic about that kind of an income tax. And there were some: Senator Zane, Ray Zane;Senator John Russo; Senator Tom Dunn. I can name a number of them that just didn’t want any part of an incometax, and they had to be persuaded to come aboard. And it was something that we put considerable work into.

Q: There were other options for raising revenue, besides an income tax. I think during the Cahill years, there wastalk of a statewide property tax, for example. What was preferable about an income tax?

James P. Dugan: Well, I thought a statewide income tax was worth considering.

Q: A statewide property tax.

James P. Dugan: Property tax; yes. Because it would do that. It would flatten the difference in property taxesbetween urban communities and suburban communities. And I thought a-- as a matter of fact, I think I wrote,somewhere, a plan that I offered as my contribution to the discussion, that had a statewide income tax as part of it,statewide property tax. And, of course, the business, industrial, suburban communities didn’t like that because theythought it would be an increase, a disproportionate share that they would have to pay. I thought of--

Q: I’m sorry; say that again. Who thought they’d pay a disproportionate share?

James P. Dugan: The-- everybody except the urban voters.

Q: The suburbs, you said.

James P. Dugan: Right. I also thought about the classification of property, and having different rates, but that wasthought to be unconstitutional. But you can always amend the Constitution. So, there were a number of things,number of ways we could have gone. But the pressure of events is such that the editorial writers get involved inpointing fingers at the legislators, who will not buy the concept of an income tax. The gossip, the statehouse gossipthat certain legislators are attempting to torpedo or sabotage this income-tax effort of the governor. And, a lot ofthose things are just nonsense, but they’re the things that make it difficult for rational discussion among peoplethat-- people of good will that have different opinions.

Q: The top rate on the New Jersey income tax today is nine percent, on its way up, possibly, above ten percent. Doyou recall what it was when you passed it?

James P. Dugan: I think it was two.

Q: Two percent? It took three years to get it done. Why did it take so long?

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James P. Dugan: It took longer than that. It took four years of Cahill, and four years of Dick Hughes, or maybeeight years of Dick Hughes. I mean, this thing has been in the works for a long time. I think the question couldbetter be put, Michael: how did you accomplish it so quickly?

Q: How did you?

James P. Dugan: By the charm that we were able to exercise.

Q: Some feel that Governor Cahill’s blue-ribbon tax commission had a better tax plan. Do you recall it, and how itdiffered from the tax that ultimately got enacted?

James P. Dugan: I don’t, but I was on that commission. I was a member of that commission. I don’t recall.

Q: Maybe that was the statewide property tax.

<crew tax>

Qn: It was an income tax?

James P. Dugan: Yeah.

Q: Who was your key contact in the governor’s office? Perhaps the Governor.

James P. Dugan: The Governor.

Q: Anybody besides him?

James P. Dugan: No.

Q: Was he responsive to your entreaties?

James P. Dugan: Sure. I had easy access to him, and I was very candid. I mean, we didn’t waste a lot of time withsocial chatter; we did business. Ed Crabiel was useful in those discussions, but usually it was Brendan, one on one.I mean, I had a very good working relationship with him. We didn’t always agree, but we had common cause in theincome tax.

Q: Remember something you may have disagreed on?

James P. Dugan: It was more tactics than strategy, and I can’t recall-- but I knew that our relationship had sufferedas a consequence of the battle of-- for the income tax, and the politics that was attendant to that and to other things.You know, as Democratic state chairman, I presided over the Democratic State Committee, and had a looseorganization with all the Democratic county chairmen. And they all had big appetites for patronage. And, in somecases, they were-- they were seeking more than was reasonable, but they had reasonable requests for politicalpatronage jobs that I thought, in some instances, did not get adequate consideration by the Governor. And I toldhim that.

Q: “Patronage” has a kind of negative connotation.

James P. Dugan: It does, it does. Let me put it more euphemistically.

Q: Or help us understand why it has the negative connotation, as a word.

James P. Dugan: Well, it’s not so much different than the word “politician,” you know. It’s a-- I think if you went

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to the dictionary, you might find a different definition of patronage than what we commonly accepted. In thepolitical community, we’re hysteric about political patronage. It has that bad connotation that it’s the attempt toplace in a public office someone who’s not competent to do that job. Okay? That’s “patronage” as perceived by alot of people. I think more simply and more euphemistically, it could be the advancement of a qualified person for apublic office, or the recommendation for that.

Q: So, assuming that the county chairs that you were just referring to were putting qualified people before theGovernor for consideration, working through you as the state chairman, and as someone close to the governor, whywas Byrne not responding?

James P. Dugan: Well, there’s a certain-- well, there’s a difference between the organization that’s within the StateHouse, or the governor’s office, as opposed to in the legislature, and as opposed to the collection of countychairmen. These county chairmen have, in some instances, a great deal of influence on the votes that are cast in theSenate and in the Assembly. And if a powerful county chairman, who is able to give or deny re-nomination to alegislator, that’s a significant factor in the operation of government and the passage of legislation.

Q: Who were the powerful Democratic Party chairs of that era?

James P. Dugan: Well, Harry Lerner, just by reason of being chairman of Essex County; Frank Fitzpatrick ofHudson; Nick Venezia of Middlesex; the Camden County folks; the big areas, the big urban areas. Passaic-- whatwas his name? I can’t think of it. The Passaic County chairman had some clout. And, you know, people of that--and if you count up all the legislators who come from those different vicinages, it’s a big block of votes. That’s notto say that the legislators are mere puppets to those people; but they listen to them, and are influenced to someextent by them.

Michael Aron: In ’94, Byrne’s first year in office, did you-- I’m sorry; in ’74, Byrne’s first year in office, did youadvise him that the votes weren’t there in the Senate for an income tax?

James P. Dugan: Yeah, and a time came when I told him I thought we could do it. But if we had to go through adrill of debate and failure, and debate and failure, it would take a little more time, and so on and so on, but finally Itold him I thought we could get it done.

Q: At the time that it was done?

James P. Dugan: Yes.

Q: How instrumental was the Court ordering the schools shuddered in July in persuading reluctant legislators tovote for the tax?

James P. Dugan: Well, my niece, Jennifer Murray, who is my godchild, also, she asked me that question at thattime because she was a very bright little girl. And I said, “Jenny, the State House is going to turn into a pumpkin ifwe don’t pass an income tax.” And we didn’t pass an income tax. And she sent me a drawing of the State House ina pumpkin motif. And I think it was just the confluence of, you know, the perfect storm, the perfect legislativestorm. It was the right time, and people had wearied of resisting. The court came from another direction, and all ofthese different forces kind of said, “All right, let’s go. Throw the sponge in.”

Q: Was it a dramatic vote? Was it a dramatic session?

James P. Dugan: It was. It was.

Q: Did you speak?

James P. Dugan: Yes.

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Q: Do you remember any of the key swing votes you were working on over the years?

James P. Dugan: Tom Dunn, the mayor of Elizabeth.

Q: Did you get him, ultimately?

James P. Dugan: Yes, yes. He provided the 21 st vote, and then a couple jumped on, and we may have gotten 23votes. But, without the 21 st, we wouldn’t have gotten the 22 nd and the 23 rd. You know, that’s part of thegamesmanship that is played in the legislature.

Q: Did anything else happen in the first term that’s worth remembering? Clearly, that was the signalaccomplishment, but anything else come to mind?

James P. Dugan: Well, we had a very big legislative agenda: the Pinelands, the construction of Giants Stadium, andthe renegotiation of the contract between the Giants and the state. The moral pledge of the state’s credit by thelegislature, that was a resolution authored by Ray Bateman and myself, that said that-- that gave comfort to thelenders who were going to do the construction financing and the permanent financing for the Giants Stadium, that ifthere was a default, the state was pledged to guarantee payment. And it probably was ineffective, but it gave them,the lenders, the comfort that they needed. Because at that time, New York banks were not coming forward with thefunds that we thought were available to finance the construction of the stadium. And we had a number of meetingswith the Giant ownership, Sonny Werblin, who was the chairman of the Sports and Exhibition Authority at thattime, Bud Foley, who was the treasurer, Brendan, myself, Dick Leone, and a bunch of people. And we got someconcessions that-- for amending the agreement to give the state more money, make a better deal for them.

Q: How successful do you think the Meadowlands has been, or how much of a positive has it been for the State ofNew Jersey?

James P. Dugan: Oh, I think it has been very positive. I think without it, there would have been chaoticdevelopment in the Meadowlands, and who knows what would be there now? They made some mistakes, but theyerred on this side of caution, for the most part.

Q: What do you mean by that?

James P. Dugan: Well, it’s-- there’s a complaint that it’s very difficult to get anything done in the Meadowlands, interms of construction. But I haven’t seen or heard of anything that had merit that didn’t ultimately get thepermission of the commission to go forward. There have been mistakes recently: the EnCap fiasco, the XanaduProject, that has yet to be determined whether or not it’s going to be successful or not. But, in any event, thosethings would not have been tried unless there was some kind of regulation, oversight by the MeadowlandsCommission. And it was-- there were a lot of-- there was a lot of oversight that wasn’t very good on the part of thegovernor’s office, during the McGreevey Administration. I don’t mean to single anybody out. The economicproblems that are prevalent in this state and the country right now, in terms of Xanadu, and lots of other things, butI think they’ve done a pretty good job. And they’ve had good leadership, I think.

Q: Was casino gambling an issue in the first term?

James P. Dugan: It was, it was.

Q: The Governor believed that a constitutional amendment to allow gambling in Atlantic City made sense?

James P. Dugan: He did.

Q: Did you?

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James P. Dugan: I did. I did not think a constitutional amendment that allowed gambling throughout the state madesense, and I took a position against that. And I think the Governor took no position, but I would not raise anymoney for that proposition. I thought that was-- I just didn’t think that had any merit. Then, when it was-- Iremember Wayne Dumont and some of the rural senators from the rural sections of the state, the Northwest, thatwanted casinos up in that area, they were disappointed that they couldn’t get support for it. And it went down prettybadly. A couple of years later, there was another referendum amending the Constitution that provided that thecasinos, the venue for the casinos would be restricted to Atlantic City. I thought that was a good idea. Lots of otherpeople did, too. So, that passed very comfortably, and that was-- and then, there was the enabling legislation thatfollowed that, that my committee, the Judiciary Committee, had jurisdiction over. So it was very interesting, andvery useful, very profitable for the state, and a boon to Atlantic City and South Jersey. It hasn't fulfilled its promisecompletely, but on the whole it's been something that we accomplished and have some pride of authorship in.

Q: Do you think it would have happened were it not for Brendan Byrne? His successor, Tom Kean, opposedgambling.

James P. Dugan: Well again, the Byrne Administration, and the Legislature that he had, were enthusiastic; they hadan appetite for change and doing things. And I think we worked well together. We had overwhelming Democraticpositions in both the Senate and the Assembly, and in the Senate we were on a roll. So we did a lot of things:Pinelands, Meadowlands, lots of things, lots of good things we did.

Q: In hindsight, was it a mistake not to set up a Meadowlands-type commission for Atlantic City?

James P. Dugan: I don't know. I think the Casino Control Board has lots of jurisdiction that it may not alwaysexercise, but they have pretty good control of what goes on down there.

Q: While you were State Chairman, were you also still Chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee?

James P. Dugan: I was.

Q: Were there any high profile confirmation fights that you recall? Or did your committee just confirm everybody,the Governor put through?

James P. Dugan: No, we didn't do that. When you asked that question, I think that it's a good thing that the Senatehas maintained the practice of senatorial courtesy. Because some of the people-- and I’m not going to name any ofthem-- who were nominated for high office-- judicial, prosecutorial and otherwise-- I used to get them before theywere submitted, after they had been vetted by the State Police and anybody else that wanted to bring to ourattention reasons why they should not be confirmed. And I used to discuss it with Brendan, and many times thenominees withdrew from consideration because--

Q: Based on the initial State Police four-way, or based on your picking up a sense from your Senate colleagues thatthis was a bad choice.

James P. Dugan: Yes both.

Q: Both?

James P. Dugan: Yes. The State Police was not the final arbiter of the qualifications or the merit of any of thesepeople. But sometimes they missed a lot of things.

Q: Something that a Senator from that person's county would know.

James P. Dugan: Sure. Yes.

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Q: Senators have always been protective of the privilege of senatorial courtesy. Governors have often been criticalof the practice. But you think it works well.

James P. Dugan: Absolutely.

Q: When you were State Chairman-- today the State Democratic Committee has an office on West State Street-- didthe Democratic Committee have an-- did you have a State Chairman's Office on West State Street in those days?

James P. Dugan: It wasn't very grand, and our coffers--

Q: I don't know if it's grand today either.

James P. Dugan: Well our coffers-- money wasn't that big a deal in the operation of a political party, the financingof candidates, as it is today. It's just gotten to be outrageous, the amount of money that has to be raised. And to havethe leadership committees in both houses being competitors with the State Committee for campaign contributionsmakes it difficult. And I just don't think it promotes better government, and I think on the contrary that the money,money's influence in the election process has really been harmful, significantly. But it doesn't appear that there'sgoing to be anything meaningfully done about it.

Q: Where did you live in those days? Were you in Bayonne?

James P. Dugan: Yes.

Q: Is it your hometown? Where do you live today?

James P. Dugan: Saddle River.

Q: Saddle River. As State Chairman and Chairman of the Judiciary Committee, how many days a week would youcome to Trenton in those days?

James P. Dugan: Well I did a lot of work out of my own law office. But I spent a lot of time. I used to read the billsand I was conscientious about what I was doing. Because all of these different offices, they are what the incumbentmakes them. And if I didn't want to be State Chairman I wouldn't be. If I didn't want to have the power of thatoffice to do some things that I thought should be done, I wouldn't have accepted the office. And the same thing withrunning for the Senate. I wanted these offices because I thought I could do something good with them.

Q: What do you think you did with them?

James P. Dugan: I think I helped all of the above; the above being casino gambling, income tax. They don't haveany portrait of me hanging in the Bayonne City Hall saying 'the author of the--', or 'the sponsor of the State IncomeTax.' That's still something that people hold against a lot of the people that were initially involved in getting itpassed. And that's one of-- I don't know, I'm babbling now I suppose. But I think it's more important to do the rightthing than it is to get re-elected. And I never wanted to make a career out of being a legislator or being ingovernment, because for one thing if you have a family to support you can't make much money as a full-timelegislator. And I think too, recently there have been editorials about-- I suppose in response to some of theindictments of legislators. There are the traditional editorials advocating full-time legislatures. I think that's absurd.And I'm not a historian, but I think of it-- I've read the Federalist papers, and the people that put this countrytogether were citizen legislators; they didn't make a career out of it, for the most part. And I think that legislatorsnow with the kind of budgets that they have individually, what they get paid, the work product that they- or thevolume of the work that they do, it doesn't add up a full-time appointment. And I think it denies people, that haveother careers, citizen careers, the opportunity to be in government.

Q: Do you believe in term limits?

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James P. Dugan: I'm a little bit ambivalent about that, but for the most part yes; if I had to come down on one side. Iwould limit maybe the Senate to three terms; 12 years is plenty of time. As a matter of fact, I think three terms itwould be ten years, because of our decennial census. And eight or ten years for the Assembly, that's enough time.I'm sure this is not going-- can you edit that, so that when my fellow Senators see that, or my colleagues see that,they'll say, "What were you doing?"

Q: How do you feel about initiative and referendum?

James P. Dugan: I like the idea, I do. I know California has gone a little bit crazy with some of the things thatthey've done, but I think an initiative amendment could be fashioned so that it would be more confined than theCalifornia version, and I think it's a good idea.

Q: A Democrat who favors term limits and initiative and referendum is probably a fairly conservative Democrat.Are you a fairly conservative Democrat?

James P. Dugan: I'm middle of the road.

Q: As State Chairman you were telling us a little while ago that you dealt with the County Chairs. What was therelationship between Brendan Byrne and Harry Lerner, given that Lerner didn't back Byrne in the '73 primary?

James P. Dugan: Well Harry Lerner had a local candidate, Ralph DeRose, and I suppose Harry was looking for-looking over his shoulder to see that he would be the people's choice himself for re-nomination to the countychairmanship. And Ralph was a very prominent citizen of his county and had a lot of support, and it wasn't-- I'msure Harry called Brendan, especially during the end of the campaign, as it looked obvious what the outcome wasgoing to be; that Brendan and said something that, "I think you'd be a great governor", and blah-blah-blah. Butthat's kind of the rhetoric that politicians indulge themselves in.

Q: So there weren't problems between the two of them once Byrne became Governor?

James P. Dugan: I don't think so. I think it was more on the in-house Governor's staff than it was the Governorhimself. Because Brendan is a very easy guy to get along with, and I'm sure he and Harry Lerner had a decentworking relationship.

Q: Did you advise Brendan Byrne that Dick Leone, Lew Kaden and Jerry English were personality problems indealing with the Legislature, and that you needed other people involved in the dialogues who might be morecompatible?

James P. Dugan: Somebody may have done that.

Q: I take it you don't want to go beyond that statement?

James P. Dugan: I've heard that.

Q: Well what were they like?

James P. Dugan: I don't know. It takes-- it's just different personalities. And I don't mean this to apply to either ofthe three of them; that some people are thought to be supercilious and-- I don't know-- aggravating and have littlepeople skills; that's a good phrase, a lack of refined people skills.

Q: But it was a problem.

James P. Dugan: Yes, but it-- more time was wasted on it than was worthwhile. But I don’t think it really inhibitedanything from getting accomplished. I don't think there was any program that went down the tube because of that.

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Q: Do you recall whether Brendan Byrne tried to influence the selection of the legislative leadership in '74/'75?

James P. Dugan: Yes.

Q: Was he successful?

James P. Dugan: I don't think so. Ed Crabiel was his liaison with the Legislature, because Ed had come from theSenate and served a number of years in that body, and was the minority leader. But no, I don't-- how can you putthat question again that I can spin it a little bit?

Q: Did the legislative leaders-- I gather from our prior discussion with Pat Dodd in the Senate and Joe LeFante inthe Assembly-- did Brendan Byrne want somebody else in either of those positions do you know?

James P. Dugan: Well I don't know if he did. But I think it was the Governor's staff wanted other people. And therewere traditions that I don't think were particularly effective as to the rotation of the Senate President, and I think PatDodd had-- I think Mattie Feldman felt he-- I think if push came to shove, if Pat Dodd didn't agree with Brendan,and with Ed Crabiel, and with me, that he would step aside. If he-- if push came to shove, he would--

Q: Didn't agree on the income tax?

James P. Dugan: No didn't agree on stepping aside as Senate President. If he had wanted to continue, and made afight of it, he would've won.

Q: Who did win?

James P. Dugan: Mattie Feldman I think. And we, when Pat-- that's my recollection. And we all got together. Therewere able people that could fill those seats. Pat Dodd wasn't the only one. And certainly I wasn't the only one thatcould fill the Senate Judiciary Committee's chair.

Michael Aron:Right after Brendan Byrne was elected, Governor Cahill made an 11 th hour appointment to thebench, the high court, naming Governor Hughes as Chief Justice of the State Supreme Court. Do you rememberwhat the feeling was in the Byrne camp about that sort of preemptive kind of a move?

James P. Dugan: That move was so well received throughout the state, and in the Democratic Party, that not to goalong enthusiastically with that and praise Governor Cahill for his wisdom, that it would have been-- I'm sorry.Dick Hughes was one of the most popular people that has ever held public office in this state, and the mosteffective. He was just a giant.

<Crew talk>

Q: Was Brendan Byrne popular with the public during his first term?

James P. Dugan: He was a mixed bag. I would say yes he was personally; notwithstanding the fact that theOne-Term Byrne slogan caught on. But he proved his popularity by winning re-election when nobody thought-very few people thought he would.

Q: Did you?

James P. Dugan: I did.

Q: Why?

James P. Dugan: Because he was believable. And Ray Bateman, who was a friend of mine, who ran a terrible

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campaign, and he wasn't believable because of his stance on the income tax. And people just didn't buy it. And Ithought he would win, yes.

Q: You thought Brendan Byrne would win?

James P. Dugan: I did. Because he was the better candidate, and a better- and ran a much better campaign.

Q: He had a tough primary that year. Some of his own cabinet challenged him.

James P. Dugan: I know. But-- I know. But they were presumptuous in doing that. And that's the way people feltabout them. Nice people.

Q: If they had agreed on one of them, might that person have won?

James P. Dugan: I still think not.

Q: Did the public dislike Brendan Byrne? After the income tax, did the public turn on Byrne, for a period of timeanyway? I know they re-elected him, but for a period of time?

James P. Dugan: Oh yes. There was shock and awe when they were faced with the notion of people getting intotheir pocket or into their paycheck. But he weathered the storm.

Q: Did you have to stand for re-election in '77?

James P. Dugan: Well it's very interesting. I did. And I really had done the things that I wanted to do, and I didn'twant to run again. But Paul Jordan, the reform mayor of Jersey City-- I don't know if you recall him-- he wanted torun for governor, and so he--

Q: In '77?

James P. Dugan: Yes. And one of my oldest and dearest friends is a high-school classmate, Bernie Hartnett. Heasked me to run again. I didn't want to. I had had enough. And he asked me to run on Paul Jordan's ticket. So I did,with no great enthusiasm. And as your previous question suggested, there were a lot of people that were jumpinginto the race. But a lot of them jumped out too. And as the primary campaign went on, Paul Jordan was one of thecandidates for the nomination that dropped out. So there I am on the ticket with no leader. And then our sheriffcandidate, the bottom of the ticket, he dropped out. So there was me and my two Assembly running mates. And onMay 9 th, I was the-- before they dropped out-- on May 9 th I was the Senator standing, I was the party choice, theorganization candidate standing for re-nomination. On May 10 th Jordan's candidate lost the mayor's election inJersey City, and Tommie Smith was the new mayor. On the following day I was an insurgent. That's the way thewind blows up in Hudson County. With the mayor's office in his pocket, Tom Smith was now the new Democraticleader; and he had run a primary camp ticket, just in case. And I knew that the organization support was not goingto be there, and in Hudson County, at that time-- and probably since that time-- means you're not going to getre-nominated. So I met with Tommie Smith, who was a friend of mine; we were all friendly up in Hudson County.He asked to have a meeting with me, and he said-- and I did-- and he said, "Jim," he said, "I was a little bitsurprised at the election." And he said, "I thought it was going to be a runoff in Jersey City, and that you'd continueto serve in the Senate and be the nominee." And he said, "Now what am I going to do?" And I said, "I don't knowTommie. You'll have to figure that out for yourself." And he said, "Well here's what I figured out." He said, "I'dlike you, since Paul Jordan has dropped off your ticket and the sheriff candidate has dropped off your ticket," hesaid, "I'd like you to drop off your ticket and join my ticket as our Senate candidate."

Q: Who was on his ticket as a Senate candidate?

James P. Dugan: Wally Sheil. And I said, "Well that's flattering Tom, but I--" He said, "Look--"

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Q: Wally Sheil was Tommie Smith's best political friend anyway.

James P. Dugan: Yes. They were teammates on St. Peter's basketball team, and--

Q: Tommy F-X, isn't that right?

James P. Dugan: Tommy F-X, yes. And Wally was okay with that, he didn't care that much. And I said, "Well," Isaid, "let me think about it." I said, "I'm not inclined to do it." So I called him the next day and I said, "On onecondition." He said, "Okay." He said, "What is it?" I said, "You got to take both of my Assembly running mates."And he said, "I can't do that Jerry." And I said, "Oh, I know you can't, but that's the only way I'd do it." And hesaid, "Okay."

Q: Who were your Assembly people?

James P. Dugan: Bill Perkins and Morris Pesin. So I had a great time campaigning, knowing that I was not going toget re-nominated. I had a lot of fun, and it was great.

Q: You had another few weeks I guess then.

James P. Dugan: Yes.

Q: Three weeks of campaigning.

James P. Dugan: Yes, about three or four weeks, yes.

Q: Why was it so enjoyable? You could say whatever you wanted?

James P. Dugan: Yes. And I had no expectation of getting re-nominated. And I maintained my standing with thepeople there. And I was happy to be out of it, to tell you the truth.

Q: Yes?

James P. Dugan: Yes.

Q: Why?

James P. Dugan: Well I had an agenda. On the national level I wanted to have some meaningful role in the electionof a president. And that's the reason I got involved with Hubert Humphrey and Jerry Brown in '76. And that didn'tmaterialize; came close but no cigar. I wanted to do-- I wanted to have- to do something in the Legislature. Ithought we needed tax reform, and a number of other things. And the agenda, the legislative agenda that weaccomplished, as far as I was concerned that was- that satisfied me. I felt pride of authorship in a lot of these things,and I was very satisfied with my performance, and I didn't think I had to do an encore.

Q: Why did Paul Jordan drop out of the gubernatorial primary?

James P. Dugan: I guess because, one, he lost Hudson County, by reason of the fact that he resigned, or he did notstand for re-election as mayor. He chose to run in the primary for the office of governor, and his nominee--

Q: Lost to Tommie Smith.

James P. Dugan: His organization lost to Tommie Smith.

Q: Who was his nominee?

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James P. Dugan: I forget. It just slipped my mind.

Q: Jordan was the mayor of Jersey City for what, one term, two terms?

James P. Dugan: I think he was an interim. He won an election to fill a vacancy, and I think he probably was-- andthat he won on his own. So I think he probably was in his sixth year as--

Q: Was he a medical doctor?

James P. Dugan: Yes he was.

Q: Well for you to back him, at the urging of your good friend Bernie Hartman, was to go against your governor ata time when you're the State Chairman. That seems a little dicey.

James P. Dugan: Well things were in flux; can I put it that way? And I think by running a ticket in the presidentialprimary, a ticket of uncommitted delegates, that I did, against Brendan's ticket of delegates who were supportingJimmy Carter; that the outcome of that primary election made it a little difficult for us to embrace. My ticket won85 delegates, and Brendan's ticket won 23. So it was a considerable setback for him and his organization. And Ithink things just--

Q: So that was the rift, that was where the rift set in?

James P. Dugan: Well I think that probably it was-- yes, it was the highest profile disagreement that we had.

Q: You say you won delegates-- you're talking about, in the primary election, those were the people who wereelected to be delegates to the…

James P. Dugan: Yes.

Q: …national convention.

James P. Dugan: Yes.

Q: But then it was Brendan's team that prevailed at the convention. Your team--

James P. Dugan: Oh no they didn't.

Q: No?

James P. Dugan: No. At the national convention?

Q: Yes, at the national convention.

James P. Dugan: No.

Q: Well Jimmy Carter got nominated.

James P. Dugan: I know. But I put together a solid delegation, and we voted unanimously for Jimmy Carter. My 85delegates voted. And Brendan was a delegate but he wasn't the chairman. I asked Pete Williams to be the chairman.And so Brendan was a member of the delegation. But it was not his delegation.

Q: What kind of guy was Pete Williams?

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James P. Dugan: He was a great guy, and I think it was a real tragedy what happened to him. I just can't believe thathe intentionally did anything wrong or accepted anything that he shouldn't have. I know there was some stockcertificates or something like that, that he was given that were relatively worthless, and it just-- it was a tragedy. Ithought he was a great guy. I thought he was honest. I thought it was-- he was too easy. He had difficulty saying noto people.

Q: Was he a strong legislator?

James P. Dugan: Very effective, yes. He was the Chairman of the Labor Committee, and labor loved him, and hewas very effective.

Q: Did you and Brendan Byrne discuss this issue of Carter versus Humphrey?

James P. Dugan: I'm sure we did.

Q: Why did you prefer Humphrey?

James P. Dugan: I didn't think Jimmy Carter was electable, to tell you the truth. He certainly wasn't in New Jersey.He lost the state by 60,000 votes. And as a matter of fact he called me down at my house in Sea Girt, the Sundaybefore the election. And by that time we had reconciled to the extent that was possible. And he said essentially,"Jim, how am I going to do in New Jersey?" And I said, "Governor, I have-- I don't have encouraging news foryou." And he said, "Well, be honest with me." I said, "I think you're going to lose the state." He said, "Big?" I said,"60,000 votes." And that's what happened. He just didn't connect with the electorate in New Jersey. And to edgeout, to win by the narrow margin that he did, after the Nixon debacle, proved that he was-- he just wasn't a goodcandidate. And Hubert Humphrey I thought was great.

Q: Were there ever other differences between you and Brendan Byrne prior to this diverging of the ways over thepresidential race?

James P. Dugan: Well we had different approaches to the income tax. We had some problems with appointments.But all of those things were manageable. I think there were people that had an agenda that included keeping thegovernor and I apart, as is--

Q: You think there were people who…

James P. Dugan: Yes.

Q: …who had an interest in keeping the two of you apart.

James P. Dugan: Yes, I think so, I think so.

Q: The Dick Leone/Lew Kaden axis?

James P. Dugan: Well memory has failed me who those people are.

Q: I asked you why you preferred Humphrey. Why do you think Brendan Byrne preferred Jimmy Carter?

James P. Dugan: Brendan jumped on the Carter bandwagon pretty late in the game, and he perceived Carter asbeing on a roll, and that he was going to be the nominee. And Carter got off to a good start. And we had--California, Ohio and Louisiana, and New Jersey were the last primary states. And Carter won Ohio , I thinkCalifornia , and lost New Jersey . That still didn't give him enough to get the nomination.

Q: Who beat him in New Jersey in the primary?

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James P. Dugan: The uncommitted slate.

Q: The uncommitted slate, okay.

James P. Dugan: We had a two-headed horse in that race. We featured Hubert Humphrey and Jerry Brown. Both ofthem came in and campaigned for our uncommitted slate, and were the principal speakers at our differentfundraisers. That's what happened there.

Michael Aron: Were you still in the Senate when Brendan Byrne tried to put Senator Steve Wiley on the stateSupreme Court?

James P. Dugan: Yeah, I believe so.

Q: That was a move that foundered.

James P. Dugan: Yeah. Steve Wiley was a very good legislator. He was a real student of the law, a real gentleman;not particularly influential in terms of the results, but he was a voice that should have been heard and was heard inthe legislature. I forget what the circumstances were.

Q: A pay increase for the Supreme Court. So you left the legislature after ’77; right?

James P. Dugan: Yes.

Q: So you were not there when Brendan Byrne named Robert Wilentz to be the chief justice of the Supreme Court.Did you have a view about that appointment?

James P. Dugan: Sure. I know the Wilentz family, and Bob Wilentz was counsel to the Democratic StateCommittee when I was the chairman. I knew his father, his brother, the family. Again, he was a real student of thelaw.

Q: Good appointment?

James P. Dugan: Sure.

Q: The state chairmanship is usually selected right after a primary.

James P. Dugan: Right.

Q: So Brendan Byrne wins re-nomination in June and who’s his choice to succeed you as state chairman?

James P. Dugan: Dick Coffee.

Q: Did that make sense to you?

James P. Dugan: Sure. I chose not to stand for re-nomination. I say that, of course, facetiously <laughs>.

Q: You didn’t have a chance, is what you mean?

James P. Dugan: <Laughs> I didn’t have a chance. I didn’t have any interest in it. It was a great run that I had, butyou move on to other things. That was a chapter that closed.

Q: If you had run Ray Bateman’s campaign in 1977, what would you have done?

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James P. Dugan: I would have told him that he had to support the income tax because he did so in the legislature.

Q: Did he vote for it?

James P. Dugan: Yes. And he had all of the right instincts about it. He was pilloried by the editorial writers fordoing that, for reversing his field. And not so much that they influenced the vote, but they influence the people whorun the campaign, the advisers and so on, and I think they panicked. And Ray had some other problems during thecampaign that distracted him.

Q: Personal issues?

James P. Dugan: Well, I think they were family issues, some ill health, something of that nature. But the big thingwas his disavowal of support for the income tax. I thought that took away his credibility.

Q: Did Brendan Byrne make any mistakes in the first term that held him back in standing for re-election?

James P. Dugan: I don’t know. See, we-- Democrats had a certain momentum. One thing that we had wastransparency. I mean, everybody knew what we were doing and we didn’t have anything to hide. It’s not like it istoday. “Transparency” is a new word, but it wasn’t in those days and we enjoyed what we were doing, and we wereconvinced that we were right. And all of us; Brendan, the legislature, the whole Democratic organization, felt goodabout what we were doing. And we, for the most part, knew we did the right thing.

Q: Did you stay involved?

James P. Dugan: Yeah, I did what I could to support Brendan. I did whatever he asked me to do.

Q: Did he ask you to do things still?

James P. Dugan: Yeah, but talked to different people that he thought I might have some interest, some influence on.But I did whatever I could and I still do, for candidates that I know and admire.

Q: Any you’d care to share?

James P. Dugan: Well, I have to think a little bit. I wasn’t prepared to give any endorsements today.

Q: You don’t have to. If you think of one that you want to insert, speak up. In the meantime--

James P. Dugan: Excuse me. When I was the state chairman, I appeared often times on Sunday morning talk shows.I used to go to New York , the local CBS, NBC and so on, and I’d be interviewed. And I remember during this timethat we’re talking about, I was asked, after some leading questions, the question, “Well, who would you thinkwould be offering themselves as candidates for governor in opposition to governor Byrne?” And I named aboutthree or four of them <laughs> and they all got a kick out of that. Some of them said, “That was great, Jimmy.” Andothers said, “What the hell did you do that for?” There are good people in this state that I think should be draftedinto public life, if they have the inclination to do so. I’m hesitant to-- There’s one I can think of that-- well, maybeI’d better not. Comes from academia.

Q: Don’t know who that is.

James P. Dugan: Well, write me back and I’ll tell you <laughs>.

Q: Is it a less attractive proposition to stand for public office today than it was in the 1970s?

James P. Dugan: Oh, I think so, no question about it. No question about it.

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Q: Why, is it the scrutiny?

James P. Dugan: The scrutiny and the process of getting the nomination and getting elected. I don’t mean todemean or have anything negative to say about any of the people that are presently in legislative office, but I thinkit was easier to get quality candidates under the old system that prevailed in this country, in this state until the last20 years or so. It just seems to me that this full-time legislature concept is something that should not be encouraged.I think people that have something to bring to the table by reason of their experiences; businessmen, citizens,professionals, representatives, nurses, doctors, whatever, have a better chance of getting the nomination under theold system, where some of the these county chairmen that I was making reference to earlier in this conversation,they wanted quality candidates to fit that description rather than a candidate who would satisfy a perceived hole inthe county organization, either ethnically or socially or whatever. I hope I’m not proved wrong, but I have theimpression that people that I served with were people that I was very happy to serve with. They didn’t always agreewith me or I with them, but I’m not sure if I’m articulating my dissatisfaction with the way things have gone inrecent elections.

Q: Looking back, if you could change something in the way politicians in state government have evolved sinceyour time. You’ve already said you would like to see much more turnover among legislators, maybe less emphasison money and getting people elected. Anything else?

James P. Dugan: The money thing is really discouraging. It doesn’t make any sense from looking at it from anyperspective that candidates should be forced to raise or be responsible for someone who is giving them that kind ofmoney, whether it’s through these organizations that the election laws allow to collect huge sums of money anddistribute to selected legislators. I just think it has to be cleaned up in many areas. And there’s always been thatresistance to the newspapers, who now are in dire straits, but a lot of the people used to complain about thedoubling of the advertising rates for candidates as opposed to the carwash down the street. That didn’t make anysense and it was duplicitous of the editorial writers to talk about all these other things and not address the cost ofgetting elected, getting good people to be interested in getting elected. I don’t know what you can do about it, butthat will have to be left to someone else. I’ve seen a development that I’m not particularly happy with.

Q: What did you do when you left the legislature and went back to practicing law?

James P. Dugan: I have a pretty good appetite for work and I never let my law practice fall into decay, but I wentback to work and I did what I most enjoy, that’s practicing law.

Q: Do you enjoy that more than being in the political game?

James P. Dugan: Long-term, sure, as a profession.

Q: Why?

James P. Dugan: You have less restraints. You make all your own decisions. You set your own agenda. And thereare a lot of good things that you can do. I enjoy trying cases, a lot of fun and it was profitable.

Q: So you were a private citizen during the second Byrne term. From your vantage point, how did the Governor doduring that second term?

James P. Dugan: I liked what he did. He did pretty well. But I think all the action or a lot of the action was in hisfirst term. Yeah, I’m sure that that was the case.

Q: Do you think he grew in office in the second term?

James P. Dugan: Oh, he did, sure.

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Q: You came up in Hudson County politics. I know from having glanced at our prior conversation for this archivethat you somewhat resented the caricature of Hudson County politics as somehow colorfully corrupt. Has HudsonCounty politics changed since you were part of it?

James P. Dugan: Well, I’m no longer a commentator on my beloved county and city. I don’t know. My commentwould be no more valuable than anybody else’s that reads the newspapers or just is aware of what’s going on.

Q: Do you think Hudson still gets a bad rap?

James P. Dugan: Yeah, I do. And some of these things are self-inflicted wounds. I can’t deny that either.

Q: In hindsight, was the whole Robinson v. Cahill, Abbott v. Burke mandate to spend more in urban school districtsa mistake?

James P. Dugan: To some extent, because it hasn’t done the job that everyone hoped that it would accomplish. Theproof of that is in the pudding, I suppose. And I’m not sure that the tons of money that have been raised in the nameof better education for the kids has been used to accomplish that. I just think, well, my wife was the president of theboard of education in Saddle River and she did a marvelous job. And she did some spectacular things to improvethe quality of education there without spending a lot of money. And I look around and here, through hercommentary about the inordinate amount of money that’s consumed by administration of these schools aboutschools that have principals and superintendents, and vice-principals and a whole cadre of staff that eats up so muchof the budget that it’s incredible. And the teachers’ appetite for benefits is insatiable. And I don’t think the courtsknow, notwithstanding the deluge of information and statistics that they get in these cases, the Abbott cases, isproperly interpreted by those courts. So again, non-specific, but I don’t think it has accomplished the job that it wasmeant to do, and especially the income tax money that goes to that purpose.

Q: You say your wife was president of the school board of Saddle River?

James P. Dugan: Yeah.

Q: For how long?

James P. Dugan: About four years. During that time, she changed the curriculum. She was responsible for bringingin a new superintendent that did an excellent academic job. She created a middle school involvement so that theyonly have from K to six or whatever it is. And she sent the kids after that to two different middle schools thatserved the surrounding community. She gave the kids that graduated from those middle schools two choices of finehigh schools; Northern Highlands and another school up there that really enhanced the educational opportunities forthe kids. And as a consequence of that, a lot of new people that move into the community say they did so because alot of people that are looking to a place to locate and educate their children make inquiries about what kind ofeducation they’re going to get, and that’s proof of the pudding. And she renovated the physical structures in theschool complex and did a lot of things, and so I’m vicariously aware of what’s going on in the school systemsthroughout the state.

Q: You sound proud of your wife.

James P. Dugan: I am. I think she did a terrific job.

Q: How many children do you have?

James P. Dugan: Six.

Q: What are they all doing?

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James P. Dugan: My baby is in Seton Hall Law School. She’s a freshman. Her sister works for one of the largerfirms in the state. She finished a judicial clerkship and is now a member of the litigation department in Cole Schotz,one of the larger firms in the state. James is interested in public life and is now the director of business developmentfor The Meadowlands. And our two other girls are married with lots of children. Kristen has a doctorate degree, andthey’re all well-educated with master’s degrees. And Eric, the oldest, is in finance.

Q: In hindsight, was Brendan Byrne a good governor?

James P. Dugan: Oh, yeah. Yes.

Q: How so?

James P. Dugan: I truly believe that. He got the job done. He recognized what had to be done and he got it, withsignificant cooperation from the legislative branch, that I think truly deserves almost or maybe even an equalamount of kudos for what Brendan accomplished, and it was a great experience and it was rewarding to serve withBrendan. I’m happy that he came along at the same time that I was getting involved.

Q: Thank you.

#### End of Dugan interview ####