Becky interview with Margie Beach, citizen of Verde Valley, February 16, 7:00 pm

Q 1: What do you think are the most significant factors influencing the health of the Verde River system?Keeping water flow, obviously. Not polluting it which is at this point is not too big a problem, I don't believe. The years have done a lot for the health of the Verde River that way. Of course, the removal of the invasive species, the plants, is so important. I am appalled at what has happened with the edges of the river with tamarisks, salt cedars, whatever you want to call them. Various reeds and so forth that have...to me they take up a lot of the water that should be flowing and creating opportunities. They prevent other species that should be there. The most important thing is educating the public, but there again there has been a lot done in the last 5-10 years with the Verde Birding and Nature Festival. It has done a lot. Verde River Days, of course, has been going on for 20 years. I would say that they are getting even better over the last few years in really educating more people. The difficulty is getting the word out to those who don't read the newspaper because I think the newspapers have done an excellent job, too, of education. There are a lot of people who don't read the local newspapers. The local paper can't print every word, unfortunately.

Q2: Do you feel there are things about the Verde River that we need to understand better? If so, what are they?I'm sure there are things we need to understand better. You'll find a geologist to argue either way that the drilling of wells does or does not affect the level of the water in the river. That alone is such a huge thing and no one can say for sure, in my estimation, it doesn't seem like anyone has come up with any way to absolutely say for sure what the drilling of wells does. We definitely need to understand that. I think we need to understand, I may be jumping ahead, because I know some of the goals for this group. I think that we need to understand the culture of the people who live along the river, who own property on the river, and who may or may not be happy about hearing about what needs to be done to it. Even having a conversation about it, letting it us know. It would be lovely if we knew that they would converse with us. I know that the ditch owners and users, all the various ditches, irrigation ditches, there's a real variety of feelings about changing, updating, making the system better. There's a plethora of ideas.

Q 3: To your knowledge what, if any, economic development activities have recently been, or are currently being, conducted that directly relate to the Verde River? Who is involved in these activities? There are a couple of big ones. The Birding Festival is huge. Then the Verde River Greenway. Enormous strides have been taken because of the Verde River Greenway and State Parks doing this. Most of all Dead Horse Ranch State Park. Just incredible. And Verde River Days, too. Those are all economic development activities. The Cottonwood Chamber of Commerce started the Verde River Days and Dead Horse Ranch State Park. Involved in the chamber for years...14 years, chaired the board for 2 years. The river is really closely intertwined with our burgeoning wine industry. That is certainly economic development. The water to wine trips. The fact that the wineries are along Oak Creek and are along the Verde River. Oak Creek is part of the system. Those are important. I think that the Jail Trail, things like that that are encouraging people to get out along the river is an important part of economic development because it brings tourism but it also brings the local people to those local riparian areas. Local people don't come because they get busy. You don't appreciate what's in your backyard most of the time. Like Grand Canyon, for instance. I'm a third generation native of Arizona. I went to Grand Canyon when I was eight and I didn't go again until I was 48. And there it is just a couple of hours away. So we don't appreciate what's in our backyard. People travel half way around the world to go to Grand Canyon. And people come here from other countries to go to the Nature and Birding Festival and yet,

even when there's a free day on that Saturday of the festival, local people don't go. So part of it is not knowing. Part of it is not realizing, not understanding what they're missing. Some of it is that they don't know that it's even happening. Some of it is that they don't know what they're missing. They don't think that there's anything for them there because they're not birders while there's so much more than that. Those free activities on that Saturday are really fun for the whole family. People don't know it. The Cottonwood Chamber of Commerce is involved in it, all the chambers of commerce are involved to a certain extent in various things with it. The Cottonwood Chamber has been real involved. The state parks people have been excellent. The Forest Service has gotten involved recently. They have given some grants in the last 2, maybe 3 years to the Birding Festival for instance to help pay for some of the activities. They are almost always involved in so far as always having a booth at the Birding Festival and at Verde River Days. Those are important. The city of Cottonwood has been involved. They've been sponsors of Verde River Days, for instance, maybe since its inception. I know a long time. Verde Valley newspapers has also been a huge sponsor for Verde River Days. I the newspaper was one of the first sponsors and continues to be. The state parks along the Red Rock and Slide Rock, too. Those are important parts of knowing the creek. It's all part of the same system. One of the reasons my dad moved here was because there are 7 year around running streams within 20 miles of Cottonwood. Moved to Cottonwood as a child, 1959, from Scottsdale originally. I've seen a lot of changes. One of the changes, in 1959 the landscape was still very open and ruined from the smelter smoke. The smoke from the smelters had killed vegetation and kept it from coming back. Imagine now looking at Clarkdale and not seeing many trees. That's the way it was in 1959 and the early 60s. There were no trees in that park. There were no trees in people's yards because the smelter smoke had killed the trees. They had killed orchards along the river. As far as the ground, I don't know that there was any long term results. It was just the smoke itself when it was still here. There were, I have seen, maybe the Grosetas have them...when Andy and Mary Beth Groseta bought the Jordan place on the river in Cottonwood, they found in their attic or one of the rooms, these big books that had written accounts because the Jordans were keeping track of what happened when the smelter smoke came down into the valley during the day. Cause at night, it would go straight up, but as the day heated up, it would come down in the valley. They've got written descriptions of the...it was journalized. This was from the teens and the twenties. I don't know where the documents now are. Does Andy still have them or whether they gave them to the Jordans. I'm fascinated by the history here.

Q 4: What potential economic development opportunities exist which are associated with the Verde River system in the Verde Valley? I don't think that we have really tapped the potential of fishermen along the river. People think of fishing in Oak Creek, upper Oak Creek, but they don't think about fishing in the river so much. Even Dead Horse, even though it's getting to be well known a little bit, I think that fishing is one of the things that we could involve people here to do. I think that if we could keep the flow up, we could have more rafting and kayaking, really push that a little bit. Developing riverside businesses that have patios that view the river while you're having dinner or whatever is something that we haven't really tapped into in the Verde Valley. Along Oak Creek they've done it some, but it really hasn't been done much up to now in Clarkdale or Cottonwood. It would be great. Down where the old White Horse was would be a wonderful place to have a lot of outdoor seating and then some seating with glass that you could look out and see. It's beautiful there. Just really neat. Like the Page Springs restaurant. It's wonderful and we haven't tapped into that with the Verde Valley. Like I say, if people think of Oak Creek as being a beautiful waterway, why don't they think of the Verde River as being a beautiful waterway. Partly because we haven't promoted it that way. Now with the Verde River Greenway which is a local thing, it's going to be harder and harder to get businesses along the Verde. It makes it kind of hard to have

businesses there. There's always room for more festivals, but it takes somebody to put them on and I think that most of the non-profits that work those kinds of things are tapped out. I mean they're busy. They've got enough on their plates. Not much of a younger generation is involved, but a team of ambassadors is starting to get young people in it. I am active in the Chamber with the ambassadors, but right now I can't go to meetings. I'm still in the loop.

Q 5: In your opinion, what information and facts are there that could be used to promote and advance the connection between the Verde River and potential sustainable economic development in the Verde Valley? What facts are there? What is the gap? There's a big gap, I think. One of the difficulties of getting information is that we're five different communities in the Verde Valley. The fact sheets that come out from the Department of Commerce or wherever, where information is gathered, is gathered for a community and yet, like the city of Cottonwood fact sheet piece cannot take into account all of Verde Village. Yet, here we are, Verde Village is definitely right next to Cottonwood, really part of Cottonwood, and yet the numbers aren't captured as part of Cottonwood, in those fact sheets. If someone is looking...I think of a tourist...driving through an area, I love to drive, travel in a vehicle and look for places to stay and so forth as I go. I think of a tourist travelling along I17, looking at a map. They are going to look at first the little towns here off of the road to see which ones are worth going to. They're going to look at Cottonwood for instance which is a fairly good sized city, and we have a lot to offer, and yet they're going to see that it's a town of 10,000. Now are you going to think of a town of 10,000 as being big enough to have a Sizzler, a Denny's, decent food, decent hotels. It's just not, and yet when you really look at it, when you know that this city services an area of 50,000 people when you count in Jerome, Clarkdale, Cornville, Verde Village and even to some extent Camp Verde and the Rimrock area. It's a lot of people. If you could have a snapshot picture of the entire Verde Valley with all of the information about what's here, then a business could make a decision on whether they settle here with all of the that information. If you could take the entire Verde Valley including Sedona, Rimrock, Camp Verde, everywhere, and say 75K people, which is what they're expecting from the census. 75K people. That's an area big enough to support a lot of business. When they're looking at each town as an individual, it doesn't look like there's enough work force to make a viable business condition to move here. Particularly you're looking at the big box stores. Of course, you can go on to the various things to look at 20 miles out and that's what Wal-Mart did when they made the decision to go to a super store. That decision alone, I know because I was very active in the Chamber Board at that time, it made other big boxes look at us a lot more because Wal-Mart had made that decision. I don't think Home Depot would have some if the super store had not decided to come in. Target was looking. They never came. But they never would have looked without that. It helps to bring small businesses here--20 people. Or home businesses. They generate tax dollars. When I moved away from the Verde Valley in 1974, there wasn't much here still. The Safeway had come in and there was a Babbitt Bros. here. A grocery store. That was about it. Prices were still very high. When I was growing up here, prices were high because there were mom and pop stores and it was hard to get things here, they bought smaller quantities. When people say they hate big box stores, all I can say is that as a consumer, I love big box stores. I understand the difference but the little store that my mom and dad went to, the little grocery store in downtown Cottonwood, it supported a man and his wife, a butcher, the owner's sister who was the cashier, and they had a couple of box boys. And that was it. Now we have all these grocery stores and we have several chain stores now. They support a lot of people. They're paying wages that support a lot of families and keep the prices low and the resident's dollars in Cottonwood. Largely they do. There are statistics that show that if you buy at Wal-Mart as opposed to ...say at a Wal-Mart bakery as opposed to Orion Bread Company. I want to compare truly mom and pop to the big box. They say that

the Orion Bread Co. money $42 of $100 stay local. Whereas when you buy at Walmart bakery, only $14 stays local. Something like that. I don't know if that's true if you just go to the bakery department, but the fact is that for the normal household, you can't afford to go to Orion Bread Co. to get all of your baked goods. You can't afford to do it. To keep the price slow, you have to have those bigger buyers who can buy in quantities. Comparing to Penney's is the same thing. People say it's going to put out Safeway out of business. Safeway's the same thing. It's a big box. They're all big boxes. Food City is the closest we've got to a grocery store that is ????. But it is really nice for the consumer because you have the competition keeps prices low and you have so much more variety of things available to you in little towns now. Mom and Pop shops often wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the tourist base. That's true in Old Town now. It took somebody, like Eric, to go there and open those restaurants that draw people to really make it boom down there. People want to be there.

Q 6 Who are important potential supporters in advancing the connection between a healthy Verde River and sustainable economic development?All the cities and towns, governments of cities and towns, all of them. All of the chambers of commerce. The Cottonwood Economic Development Council and VVREO. The College, they're really hurting moneywise, but they are an important way to get the word out and they have been a very important partner in everything to do with economic development and sustainability and educating the public. The State Parks, the Forest Service, all of those big players. The Yavapai Apache Nation, but again getting them to play is very difficult. If we can get them on board, they are stakeholders, getting them to participate in a good discussion and continue that discussion has been very hard. A lot of it is cultural. Part of it is an historical disdain, anger, hurt feelings.

Q 7: What or who do you see as current or potential barriers to advancing sustainable economic development in connection with a healthy river( for example, laws and regulations, property rights, institutional like ditch companies, water companies, historic uses, etc.), changing cultural values? (If response is that “there are too many,” ask for top 3-5…interviewer’s discretion)Having so much land owned by public entities is a barrier. Not having a lot of private property, anywhere in the Verde Valley, not just along the river. It makes it a little bit difficult sometimes. Potential supports...we need to talk about County, too. County is an important potential supporter, too. Laws, regulations, property rights are a barrier, but we shouldn't step on them either. That's something real important to me...individual property rights. I know someone who owns 40-50 acres along the river. He probably has 6-8 acres, 2 miles of river frontage in Cottonwood. He probably would not welcome anyone doing anything including removing invasive species. I can't imagine him going along with that. Those kinds of individuals own that land. I don't know the laws and regulations so I don't know what the barriers would be there. That's beyond my area of expertise. Certainly ditch companies could be barriers. Very difficult. Potential barriers doesn't mean they are barriers, because they may not be. Talk about water companies. They have what they consider to be the rights to their surface water and that certainly is a challenge that has to be dealt with. The courts are dealing with that to a certain extent. That's been going on for 20 something years. No telling how long that will be. Money's always a challenge. I look at our economic times and that's kind of the biggest challenge right now. I really see cultural values already changing. People are starting to think about going green. They have been for several years, going green, being more aware of their use of electricity and finite resources. People are more involved in farming, making their own vegetables and that sort of thing. Which is another sustainable thing is growing your own food, your own garden. Cultural values are already changing. People are becoming more aware, more aware of the value of the river as a recreational resource. I'm seeing it happen, but I don't think it happened on its own. It's because people

like you, like me are out there working on it for 20 years. I think the famous shift happened because of all of that. (shared Barb U'Ren's perspective on shift from agriculture to construction and now going back to agriculture) I think that is what is happening. Almost all of the large ranches have been cut up. ???? rented a house at the Verde Ranch in the Verde Villages part of the Verde Ranch, before the Village was here. Grosetas are the only ones that still own large tracts of true ranch land of cattle. Monginis own, but they don't run anything, do agricultural stuff. Andy and Marybeth (Groseta) are so passionate about it. It is their life. The Monginis still have some land in pasture and they still have some animals. They're the only two names that come up as truly being part of the old guard in agriculture. When I think of Mongini, I don't think of them as being agriculture. They were. They had a dairy, down in Bridgeport.

Q 8: Who do you think might be interested in using the findings of this Verde River Economic Development Study, including the results of interviews such as this one?All of the historical societies, the CEDC and VVREO would be interested. The Prescott Economic Development people, too, in Prescott and Prescott Valley would be interested to see what we see as valuable. The County development people, those who have to do with roads and streets. Just development in general. All the government agencies I see as being interested. APS would be interested. They do so much for economic development throughout rural AZ. They are so involved throughout rural AZ. If they see this as having value, which they will, I can see them helping other areas with rivers running through them create something similar. It would be worthwhile to share it with Greg St. Clair and Lou Dodendorf of the Salt River Materials plant, and mining companies. I can see them being interested in what this study says. I think any stakeholders...anyone who owns anything along the river would be interested. Whether or not they will read it, I don't know.

Been here since 1959, interacted with the river as a child...swimming, tubing, picnicking, fishing (catfish); now has grandchildren that takes to the river...to Dead Horse, Riverfront, river access place not Thousand Trails, but called Access Road; goes to Alcantara, I've been down to that point where Oak Creek comes into the river. Have a history with the river.

Do with $5M? More access points, the property that the Koreans bought purchased by someone who would really use it. Maybe a restaurant on one side and on the other side, a nice beach area on the other side where people can play. Verde River Greenway didn't get that property. It was purchased before they had any money. More access points, rather than less, so people will appreciate the river more. Right now it's hard to get to. People don't think of it as being easy. When I was a kid it was real easy to get to the river. There were lots of places to go to the river. Help non-profits and volunteer groups. Like the Birding Festival. Barbie Hart is not going to want to do this forever. This is here 11th year.

Becky interviewing Marv Lamer, Valley Academy for Career and Technology Education superintendent, February 17, 2011, 8:00 am

Q 1: What do you think are the most significant factors influencing the health of the Verde River system?I think the most significant factors are the lack of understanding by those of us who live here about the overarching influence of the river system, all the way from where it begins at the Big Chino to where it passes through our valley. I just think many of us have become, myself included, way too casual about the river and its multiplicity of effects all the way from the birds that come and visit my house that

wouldn't if there wasn't a river with riparian areas nearby. I think we've grown too accustomed to it being there. There's nothing worse than apathy. That's...I would cross that over to how we in education, how we work on it with our kids, how we look at careers related to river systems. We do some of that but we could certainly do a great deal more of it.

Q2: Do you feel there are things about the Verde River that we need to understand better? If so, what are they?I kind of answered that in part number 1. Absolutely. I think we need to understand that the longest settled areas in Arizona are those that have been associated with rivers that flow all year long. When you stop and think that this valley really was established before Phoenix and the reason being that there was not a 12-month a year river that flowed through Phoenix. And that was true for the Verde Valley. I think we, I go back to really understanding the importance ...can't remember the word for a river that flows all year long...and we need to understand that that's the driving influence to those people who came before us, in the Native American ruins we see. it's the driving influence for many of us. I suspect that it had a lot to do where mining decided to place its smelter operations because they were water expensive. Agriculture. Now as we expand our tourism, it becomes the center point of what we can offer people that come to see the Verde Valley. I call the Verde everything that's inside of the rim. I think we need to understand better what is going on with it.

Q 3: To your knowledge what, if any, economic development activities have recently been, or are currently being, conducted that directly relate to the Verde River? Who is involved in these activities? I'll plead ignorance there. I really don't know. I do know that from my years in the Mingus school district (was principal and superintendent at MUHS), we had biology classes in river water studies. But I'm really not aware of any development activities.

Q 4: What potential economic development opportunities exist which are associated with the Verde River system in the Verde Valley? Touched upon that, but let me share a bit more on that. In my mind, what seems to be a major draw for folks are greenbelt areas which is like an expansion of Dead Horse State Park piece of the Verde system. People tend to like to come to greenbelt systems. A large part of our river still remains in its pristine state, which is very good, but for a lot of folks for finding out what its value, for what it's worth, it limits accessibility. I certainly would like to see development opportunities that expand some of the greenbelt functions associated with the river. Also teaching and learning opportunities for kids. Many years ago we had school-to-work dollars which initially were elementary dollars and a lot of the elementary school in this area used those dollars to create mini-riparian areas or water areas on their campuses to emulate what was going on along the Verde water system. That helped a lot of elementary kids. Soon as they moved into their high school experience, they go involved in programs where they were testing water and that sorted...and we also have had on all three campuses, river activities where kids have kayaked the river as part of actual programs in their schools. So, I think those are important things for what is currently in front of us.

Q 5: In your opinion, what information and facts are there that could be used to promote and advance the connection between the Verde River and potential sustainable economic development in the Verde Valley? I really don't. I would say that too many of us have taken the river for granted. We just need to be reacquainted with it.

Q 6 Who are important potential supporters in advancing the connection between a healthy Verde River and sustainable economic development?There's probably an alphabet soup list of organizations. I think an important group to recapture would be those groups of people within the history of the watershed of the Verde who have sustained their livelihood, not agriculturally, people who have mined minerals out of it for other purposes. I think to reacquaint all of us with the importance that the river has had in the community. I think it's a piece that we could forget about cause there's a little bit of controversy about whether we should mine minerals out of the river or what we should do, when in fact it has been a significant piece of the economic history of the valley. I think we have some folks whose ages now, we're going to lose very quickly now if we don't have them interviewed to get that information put down in writing. As I talk to some of these older folks who are in their 80s, they have amazingly rich stories to tell about the river and the great benefits it brought during the flooding times, and the great challenges it brought in drought times, for all of their businesses, whether they were the grocer who supplied the people or... It would be really interesting to re-engage like we did some years ago, the English literature classes in the high school in collecting an oral history and putting it into written form. That was a very popular curriculum model a few years ago. To create oral histories. To send seniors out on their senior project. I think in Sedona, a couple of those kids did it as their exhibitions. You know, create those oral histories. I just think that it's another piece of helping us who...I'm not an outdoors person...so I'm sure I don't have what I need to value what I cross every time I go to Sedona. Or what I drive along side of when I go to Camp Verde. I think that can happen without our having to have a great financial underpinning. Maybe just be a direction. I also think that the more people that use...as a pilot, there isn't anything more wonderful than to fly the Verde through this valley from one end to the other. You can follow the sun. You can see where it's had its influences from where it snakes through the mining areas to where it leaves the valley down below Camp Verde. Keep in mind, it's been generating power, it's been providing... In the end you fly over it and you go, wow. Just looking visually at the different resources that are benefiting. It's pretty cool.

Q 7: What or who do you see as current or potential barriers to advancing sustainable economic development in connection with a healthy river( for example, laws and regulations, property rights, institutional like ditch companies, water companies, historic uses, etc.), changing cultural values? (If response is that “there are too many,” ask for top 3-5…interviewer’s discretion)I think that the barrier I see is one of ignorance. I think we need to... There are young families that haven't thought about taking their kids to the river. They just haven't thought about it. It's just not experienced based. Those are barriers. I also think that the ongoing balance of environmentalists for the lack of a better word and constructivists, the people who want to draw from the resource as opposed to those who want to protect the resource. I think sometimes both of those groups are passionate. What it tends to scare off are the people who simply want to enjoy. There needs to be balance in that debate so we don't drive people away from the enjoyment of the river. I see that there could be a balance. I see their ilk. That's my views. The other things that are barriers are laws, regulations, they are otherwise going to be there. I just chuckle when I look at the ditch companies. When I was a kid and grew up in Phoenix, the greatest time was the time you spent in the irrigation ditches, floating down, finding crawdads. I don't know if those are disparate things for kids to learn again. Or learning that the ditch it part of the river. That's my feeling there. I don't know enough about it to tell you what particular pieces.

Q 8: Who do you think might be interested in using the findings of this Verde River Economic Development Study, including the results of interviews such as this one?

I think it would be, the results need to get to our state legislators. I think they need to get to our county board of supervisors, at the political level. I also think that getting the results into the forms of the senior center, into the forms of the schools, I think is another tremendous place to do that. Obviously, it should include in distribution to the chambers, that sort of thing. The cross generation environments, the schools, the senior centers. We have folks living here who have never had a river experience and they're 60-70 years old. People that don't know there's a river. I'll give you one...when we came here in 1992, even though my mom lived here, course we hadn't lived here, realtors never showed us property along the Verde River. All of the properties were up away from the river. We actually didn't know about a number of areas that we might of looked at for family homes that were more along the river. I think that's a casual blowing off that environment. That's absolutely cultural. As the economically entities are developing across the country. Last year I worked a lot in St. Louis and stayed right on the Mississippi River. They talk about some of the same issues. It's almost like as your society matures, there's a period where it wants less to do with the origins that it had to the river because they were more about poverty, more about hard work. Now we have this opportunity here in the Verde to reengage. There's a cultural openness to reengaging that. That's a lot of big answers.

Came to Verde Valley 1992, principal and superintendent at Mingus, 10 years at VACTE.

Becky interviewing Lonnie Lillie, General Manager of Best Western Hotel Arroyo Roble in Sedona, President of the Sedona Lodging Council

Q 1: What do you think are the most significant factors influencing the health of the Verde River system?I would say off the top of my head the natural Mother Nature and drought type incidents, pollution, with keeping the river clean. One would say health of the Verde River system, the health of the river itself or the health...

That could be multi-faceted, health as in the beauty which is the trash and keeping it clean, and the water as clear as possible. And then the health is in the equalization of the water, the economic piece of tourism. I'm here in Sedona in the hotel business. The tourism aspects, even local tourism. To be able to use the river and the knowledge that the river is there to you. Even the residents' perception of actually being able to go from Sedona, and know we have a healthy river 17 miles away that has activities on it. To go fishing, to go tubing, kayaking, or just to take a leisurely float down the river on a pontoon type boat if possible. A lack of awareness, lack of knowledge of the physical and geographical issues that impact the river.

Q2: Do you feel there are things about the Verde River that we need to understand better? If so, what are they?There are things about the river that we need to understand. Again that could be multi-faceted. There are two sides to the story like we just talked about. The understanding that we have a Verde River that is there. The public awareness. That we have beautiful river that has some recreational value, some fishing value, some family value, to get back to father-son families going out and fishing, and just laying by the river and enjoying it. On the other side of the issue is the possibility of the river being taken away. I'm aware of entities within the state that want to take the water rights to the river. I'm not up on this very much, but I am aware that it is a political issue that there's a possibility that river is going to

be taken away by a big, huge corporation here in the state. That is something that the public needs to understand a little better. Does that make sense?

Q 3: To your knowledge what, if any, economic development activities have recently been, or are currently being, conducted that directly relate to the Verde River? Who is involved in these activities? The one, and I say one because I'd really have to think about any other, the one that really crosses my is Richard who owns the local tour company that does rafting, guided and unguided down the Verde to Camp Verde and it's based here in Sedona. He has been in business, I think a couple of years at least. I have personally done it myself. It's great. It is directly related to the Verde River. It's economic development to the Sedona area, to him, and to the Verde Valley with buying goods in the Verde. I know we drove back. We followed him out to Camp Verde with our cars. We were locals. Got on it and we drove back. We were going to stop and eat in Camp Verde afterwards and buy waters. So the economic function throughout the Verde Valley is there. It speaks of Sedona, but it is spreading the money around, I guess. It enhances the whole economy. Locals and tourists alike do the tour, guided and unguided. We did the unguided tour where we went at our leisure. He maintains the river throughout that area, too. It's a huge plus for the river, keeping it clean like I talked about. There used to be other activities. Lodging doesn't have any need or purpose of it right now, any activities that would justify that...to send a guest over to the river at this time. Richard and his tour company is the closest that we have to that.

Q 4: What potential economic development opportunities exist which are associated with the Verde River system in the Verde Valley? I'm not a river specialist, but there are...I grew up in Iowa and there are a lot of rivers in Iowa and as a kid, we always tubed on our own. Sitting on the tube and floating down. Great water memories. Tubing down this river as a kid. Enjoying it. The fishing. The guided tours like Richard has. I remember like we were talking, we've both been here a long time. Back in the day, we did a float trip on a pontoon boat, I think it was out of Camp Verde that we floated down. It was like a little party barge, floated down, turned around and came back up. It was great fun. 20 years ago. I don't think he exists anymore that I'm aware of. There's no advertising. There was adequate water. That's the health of the river, to maintain that adequate water. Even on Richard's tour, in June when we went, we had to port a little bit where you were dragging your bum across the rocks a little bit because of a lack of water. It is Arizona. Other possibilities...anything to do with river type entities, I think, would be possible economic development to enhance the visitor experience. It could have parks, little parks around, sporadically down along the river, and barbeque pits, picnic tables. There are numerous ideas that can be...like horseshoe pits. To go out with the family and enjoy a picnic along the river and get together and throw some shoes and enjoy the river. The Verde Valley is becoming a smaller and smaller in the aspect of things to do. It's not just Sedona. We have Out of Africa now, more things that are happening in the Verde Valley, not just little nodes. So if we can keep thinking that that's smaller and smaller, and not just little nodes, thinking smaller and smaller, and develop this river and other types of attractions which is something to experience. Taking the experience from just to Sedona to many other activities in the Verde Valley.

Q 5: In your opinion, what information and facts are there that could be used to promote and advance the connection between the Verde River and potential sustainable economic development in the Verde Valley? Education to let them know that the river is there, let them know that we have a river 17 miles away that is a natural river. I have pristine Oak Creek behind my property, but it's a creek. I have a river only 17 miles away that's much wider and more user friendly for above water type activities. Oak Creek is

part of that system. It's all part of that Northern Arizona system. So if we can bring some sort of marketing together. They end of meeting, I believe, it's south of Camp Verde...where Oak Creek and the Verde end up meeting. So they are all part of the same water. The value of Oak Creek is huge on my property...not as the president of the lodging council, but me privately...I have over 600 ft. creek frontage. The marketing for me is huge, for the Best Western Arrroyo Roble of Sedona. In general, it's huge also. Oak Creek Canyon is a huge draw. It's one of the most beautiful drives in America. It enriches all of our business in Sedona. Not just lodging. Restaurants, everybody that deals in Sedona.

Q 6 Who are important potential supporters in advancing the connection between a healthy Verde River and sustainable economic development?I would start with key people in each community getting together and connecting as one. Both a citizens and business alliance, or a combination thereof. Because it's involving both. Have them both as one because it's affecting the citizens. If we have these nice little parks and families can do the fishing and so on, you've got businesses that are selling tackle, selling waters, selling burgers for the barbeque. It's all enriching our tax base. Government officials from the local governments...of their choosing, not to micromanage...need to be involved with that also. I believe it needs, definitely needs, representatives to go back to that said local government and say "look this is what's being said out there. This is some serious potential for bringing sustainability to the Verde Valley." Develop a knowledge in elected officials. They help build the knowledge of the Verde River system. I think the municipalities, I guess bring them along, it could be said, or to have them along, or to have them along. I don't want to bring them along, I want to have them along side by side as partners. All three entities shoulder to shoulder. It would take a group, education, awareness efforts. Yes to all of the that. Educate and make aware. To say that this is what's happening, this is what we're looking to do. To have certain individuals to get that grassroots...to plant that seed...to get those grasses growing and the ball rolling to say "OK we're developing this because we kind of see this. Let's all get together here. We need input from all parties involved. Let's get this going and see where we can take this." The sky's the limit. I think there's potential for the lodging industry. Is the potential there...yes, as we've discussed already. Between the tours and aspects of...this is a great tour, Richard, giving that tour....doing whatever develops economically wise, business wise, is out of what this comes from. I'm not sure what other businesses could be developed there. Another little tour, a little tubing. Who knows what could be developed. And if it's something, another amenity or another activity that my guests can do here while they're staying, it's multi-faceted in the aspect of it gives them another reason to stay another night. In Sedona, or Cottonwood, Camp Verde, all of the lodges throughout the Verde Valley, Cornville, the B&Bs. It gives the guests a reason to stay and not day trip. To come up a night, 2 nights, 3 nights. It would enhance our industry. With more things to do. That hub...I always use Sedona as that hub of the wheel. You place yourself at this hub and you can day trip to Grand Canyon, Out of Africa, Camp Verde, Montezuma. You have all these little day trips...Tuzigoot...you have all these day trips. This is just adding another spoke to the that hub, whether that hub is Cottonwood, Camp Verde, Sedona. It's still that hub of the wheel. It brings people up to the Verde Valley because we have more things to do.

Q 7: What or who do you see as current or potential barriers to advancing sustainable economic development in connection with a healthy river( for example, laws and regulations, property rights, institutional like ditch companies, water companies, historic uses, etc.), changing cultural values? (If response is that “there are too many,” ask for top 3-5…interviewer’s discretion)I think as we were talking, stuff was going through my mind. Personally, it lies in the Cottonwood area. I don't know how to get down to the river because I think a lot of it is private property. How do I get down to enjoy the river? Where's public access to the river? Signage. Knowledge. Education. The changing cultural values...yes. The times have changed. Taking them down fishing is still there, but not

as prevalent as it used to be. There are possibilities if we have areas developed to do the things like that. With a lot of these schools, Boys and Girls Clubs, to churches, to go have a fishing day with the kids, and have activities set up with kids to talk about the nature of the river...the birding, the birds, the grasshoppers, l the butterflies, and all the stuff that is down there for educational, for cultural and to change the values. If we can capture these kids young and show them the value of this river system and the multi-faceted aspects just in a single river ecosystem. To educate those kids and to educate the adults. Changing the barrier, the dominant paradigm not just with kids, but also with the adults haven't had that experience or have lost it. To take the time to sit down, whether you sit in a chair and enjoy the water running by you and the sound, or have a fishing pole sitting there in the ground with a bell on top, and taking a nap until the bell rings. You can tell I'm speaking by experience. There's a huge potential barrier right now as I've mentioned earlier, I don't know the extreme ins and outs to where I can really expound upon it, but I know that there is a potential of a huge water company...there's 2 huge water companies in Arizona. One of these is trying to get the water rights to the Verde watershed...the name just left me...it's a big underwater system. It's a downriver company that is 120 miles south of us that's trying to claim the rights to all of the water up here, so they would have that. That is one of the, if not the, biggest potential...not even an obstacle...but a hardcore killer to the Verde water system. The Chino headwaters system, Chino aquifer...something like that...it's a huge potential killer to the Verde River. That's at the headwaters. Threatened from both the top and the bottom.

Q 8: Who do you think might be interested in using the findings of this Verde River Economic Development Study, including the results of interviews such as this one?Have you talked to the Birdhouse in West Sedona at Safeway? Dina? Birding is huge. It's one of the largest organizations, groups, Audubon Society, in the nation. That would be valuable. I took this picture of a bald eagle flying around yesterday in the back of the hotel. He's going up Oak Creek Canyon. They nest on the Verde River. This is the just one of many. It's a huge attraction for birders. Those using the river for economic venture. Another one is the wineries. I know a lot of the wineries are starting to utilize the water and that is multi-faceted in the aspect of its bringing tourism with the wine tours. People are starting to talk about the wineries. I just got back from Europe last week and they wanted to...people are starting to go to Napa and they wanted to talk about wineries. I said we have them in the Verde Valley and they were like, "Really". So it's getting on into Europe. That's bringing in an economic engine to the Verde Valley also. If that river dries up, it would have such a big impact.

Been in the Verde Valley for 26+ years; had some rafting experiences down to the hot springs, kayaking with Richard, party barge years ago. Unbelievable memories of using...going down to the hot springs by Fossil Creek, crossing the Verde River

If you had $5M to do something in the Verde River?Wow! I don't know where to start...marketing, study where we can develop along the river...starting from north of Clarkdale all the way down past Camp Verde; what it needs, where we have access, where we can gain access for the public to utilize it; to have a good plan for the future to come back; it’s just like starting a business...you need a great business plan. Let's get a plan together from and into the future with a great vision. 5, 10, 15 years out. $5M would definitely be a start. We need to have a plan. Some research, where to get access...and on and on and on. You have private land, reservation, multi-faceted aspects, and I'm sure there's even governments involved along there somewhere. The ultimate public-private partnership.

Becky O'Banion (O) interview with Barbara U'Ren (U), Superintendent of Cottonwood-Oak Creek School District, February 11, 2011, 8:00 a.m., not anonymous, no approval

Q 1: What do you think are the most significant factors influencing the health of the Verde River system?

U: Without my having research behind it, the first thing that pops in my mind is the Chino Basin seeming to be depleted. Water's being taken out not only for that side of the mountain, Prescott side of the mountain, but even once you get to our side of the mountain, probably a lot of our wells, which we've built our community upon is wells. I think that is a significant factor. And taking the waters out of the river. It used to be in this community that ranching was a primary source of the economic development. You had all of your canals and your ditches going to take care of the agriculture areas and those have been grandfathered...probably rightfully so. I don't know all the background behind that. So many of those ditches now go to one acre, two acre types of properties that aren't really sustaining agriculture but more private big yards which I think also takes water from the Verde and also affects the health of the river.

O: How long have you lived in this area?

U: Since 1970.

O: Do you live here in Cottonwood?

U: I live out off Bill Gray Road. I lived in Cornville for most of my years here. But then we moved out to Bill Gray 3 years ago.

O: You've been an educator this whole time.

U: I have been. I came into it in '84 and been here ever since.

Q2: Do you feel there are things about the Verde River that we need to understand better? If so, what are they?O: This can be from your experience as an educator or as a resident. What do you think we need to know?

U: I would say what takes the water out of the Verde. What pollutes the Verde. Sometime...my daughter lives down by the river. Sometimes we walk down there and the kids will be playing in the water. I go where's the water? It's turned into this little channel because I think by that time again you've gotten a lot of the water taken out of it. She's off of the old Deer Pass...passed Old Town. I think from a kids' perspective. The kids need to understand the river better. We've done a lot to try to promote that with a couple of the collaborative efforts with water conservation by a couple of teachers that are working closely with University of Arizona for curriculum. Kids need to understand the Verde River as well. Probably, not just the kids, but the community. A lot of people have come in to the community and they don't really have a good understanding of what constitutes the river, the diversity of the river, what wildlife it brings to us, birding, and the economic part of the river. What that brings to the community. The necessity of keeping that river healthy, sustainable for the Verde Valley. You know that's where we got our name. Verde Valley is Green Valley. That doesn't come without water.

O: So basically it's community wide...a lack of knowledge, a lack of presence, that has faded away?

U: It's assumed that it's always going to be there and that's it's always going to be healthy. When you think about the San Pedro and some of our rivers in Arizona that used to flow, and flow well, and they're very limited now. I don't know how many there were...5 or 7...but there's a series of rivers that used to flow through Arizona and now they've just gone into trickles or nothing except seasonal. I think that's what's going to happen to the Verde unless something is done about it.

O: That's what we're hearing over and over. Are you a native Arizonan?

U: Pretty much am. Parents came from Wisconsin when I was 2.

Q 3: To your knowledge what, if any, economic development activities have recently been, or are currently being, conducted that directly relate to the Verde River? Who is involved in these activities? U: Verde River Days. That brings people into the area. The Birding Festival. Those are the things that I look at that we're involved in from the school level. Personally, I'm involved in as well. Those are the only two that I really think about that would be an economic activity with the river.

O: You said there are students that are involved in Verde River Days?

U: Yes, and the Birding Festival. Our teachers will take the kids over to those activities and it's really nice because from Cottonwood Elementary School and Cottonwood Middle School. They can walk right over and be involved. That's something we're trying to encourage even more of with some of these collaborations we have with the county, University of Arizona to do studies of the river.

O: What's the response you get from the students?

U: They love it!

O: All ages?

U: Yes. They absolutely love it. The teachers will come back and do activities in the classroom that relate to the river and research. They've done research on the river.

O: Maybe we need to interview one of the students?

U: Oh that would be great. Jayne Lee would be a great person to interview. She's been a significant move and shaker in trying to. She's a 7th grade teacher at the middle school.

Q 4: What potential economic development opportunities exist which are associated with the Verde River system in the Verde Valley? U: Lazy Hazy Days of Summer on the River.

O: So more public use and events, community

U: Get you down by the water. We don't have a beach. We have our own beach. Lazy Crazy Days at the river. Really promoting, maybe doing some historical things on the river. Teach what is the history of the river so far as what it brought to the community. Who started the canals, the ditches. There's

names connected to some of them. The historical aspect of it would be a great journey back in time that maybe something could be built from.

O: What do you think the study of the historical perspective would bring?

U: Probably two-fold. I think sometimes we forget our history, both as a community and our history binds us as a community. Then, how we were dependent upon the river for our economy in this community. The history of the river. We would not have grown. They used to grow the crops and then wagon it up and over Long Valley into Prescott to feed people. A lot of that came from right here on the Verde River. That historical perspective and how you can tie, how we should still be tying our community with the river for our economic health. Maybe we've lost that a little bit along the way. We've turned to construction as our main economy. Which isn't necessarily bad, because everybody loves the Verde Valley. How can you not love the Verde Valley? Along with that, I think we're at risk of not being a healthy community. If the river is depleted, I think it would change the look of the valley and definitely the value of the valley. It's one place that you can still come and sit outside and watch geese fly over, birds of all kind coming into the area, and just know that you're still in a setting that is natural and beautiful. If we lose that our economy will go down the drain...down the river.

O: And all the habitat that it brings, the animals, plants, so valuable for the kids as a learning experience.

U: I think that Dead Horse State Park has done an outstanding job of trying to promote the health of the river and awareness of the river. I think they've done a great job.

O: Does the district work with Dead Horse?

U: Yes, in the relationship of going down...they're always open to us.

O: For field trip opportunities. Ideally all field trips are learning experiences.

U: Yes, they are.

O: How many times to kids not have the opportunity to have those times that they can go to the river.

U: Just get in the water, just get yourself a little muddy, just look at all those little things that are in a little cup of that water, those little things that you can see with that microscope. It's exciting for them.

Q 5: In your opinion, what information and facts are there that could be used to promote and advance the connection between the Verde River and potential sustainable economic development in the Verde Valley? O: What information and facts do we need to continue to gather to continue this process of connecting.

U: You always have two sides of looking at any issue. Sometimes the fact and information that I feel needs to go out there, may be debated by other people. For example, how much water really is being pumped out of the river and where is that water going. Is it going to small, back yard...and I understand that. I used to have that. I was on the Mason Ditch over in Cornville on Oak Creek. I irrigated my one acre, my horse ate it. It was gorgeous. I would love to have that again. So losing some of those things are very difficult, as we grow, but I think those questions and the facts have to be out there. What's

happening to the water? Where is it going? How...it's real easy to shift all the blame to the other side of the mountain, and I think that has to be absolutely monitored and made sure that it is not going to affect the water flow into the Verde. But we have to take responsibility on this side as well. Where the river actually comes through, that we're not taking all the ground water from it, we're not diverting all the waters from it, and that there...so far as the pollution. I don't know how that affecting it. I don't know those facts right there.

O: You're saying that's something to look at?

U: It is. Once people know the facts...knowing those facts and connecting those facts to a sustained economy. I'm going to go back...if you don't have the river, you're going to have a hard time sustaining the economy of the community. You'll have a community but it won't be as attractive to people to come to, to stay in, and to relocate in.

O: You mentioned construction as an economic engine. What do you think that industry would be like with an unhealthy or missing river?

U: Yeah, I think one of the things that people love about living here is the diversity of the area we live in. The geography of the river, Oak Creek, all of the waters coming together. It's a rich, diverse area that we live in. You can't be in a better place.

Q 6 Who are important potential supporters in advancing the connection between a healthy Verde River and sustainable economic development?U: Construction, educators. I think that's one of the things again, after you speak to Jayne Lee. She can tell you some of the things that she's helped put together for the district to really help educate kids on the importance of water, and water in relationship to where we live. There's another activity that we do in October with the County. We do it down at the river. I'm trying to remember the name. I'll find that name. That's a great activity. We take all the 4th graders and actually all the schools in the area, not just our schools. It started with working with the County seeing if we could get our district involved. We got our district involved. I think we now have Clarkdale's involved, Camp Verde's, some of the charters. We're trying to expand. It's a day of water activities.

O: At Dead Horse?

U: We do it at the park, Verde River Park. It's been very successful. That's done in collaboration with Chip Davis and his department. I'll find out the name and email you. Jayne might remember that as well. Pat Osborne will have it, too. That's been great. Bus them all down there. A lot of the community people volunteer to help with that and they just have a ball. It's a great education opportunity.

O: Who's the coordinator?

U: It's out of the county. In collaboration with Chip's office we've been able to put that together.

O: I can check with Chip on that, too. He's one of our key players in the interviews.

U: So those would be some of your people. Your service agencies like Kiwanis. I think Kiwanis goes down and helps with Verde River Days. Some of the other. The Rotary. They're out there. So I think your service organizations, those are one of your movers and shakers. They can be a vital component.

Q 7: What or who do you see as current or potential barriers to advancing sustainable economic development in connection with a healthy river( for example, laws and regulations, property rights, institutional like ditch companies, water companies, historic uses, etc.), changing cultural values? (If response is that “there are too many,” ask for top 3-5…interviewer’s discretion)U: I think, I hate to say it, I do love that green backyard. I think ditch companies. This is an interesting one to me. When I lived out in Cornville, we had a well. My brother worked for SRP. I used to...in the beginning in the Verde Valley, you did not have to register your well. You dug a well, and you had a well. And then SRP said you had to register your well. We were furious. What do you mean you have to register...

O: Big Brother?

U: And he was my big brother. What do you mean you're coming in to make us register our well, Chip. It's none of your business. So we'd go back and forth on that and so now as you step back, or step aside. You think about if wildcat wells go in every place, you aren't going to have. We didn't know then. Our knowledge base was limited and I think that might still be true. Knowledge bases are limited. You put a well in and think we've got an abundant supply of water and think we're all floating on a little lake and that you can take out as much as you want. So I think some of those issues. I don't know a lot of the laws and regulations. I know when things are grandfathered, you know, what do you do with that grandfathered.

O: That's a stark perspective...kind of what the ditches are based on.

U: Again, I think we do in this area, we have a change in culture. It isn't the same as it used to be back when it was really that agricultural and ranching area. So sometimes I think we have to be very delicate in our balance in how do we bring those two together so that they can sustain. That whole industry can pick up. You know there are crops that are not, that don't need as much water as others. Grapes. So there's a prime crop, absolutely. So this agricultural piece could really come back strong when you think about the wine industry, you think about the restaurants that might serve that wine industry. The organic foods that they might want, local grown. So I think there's a whole piece in there really has not been tapped yet, as a very rich area for tourists to come who are going to be leaving a clean footprint and those industries working together along with the beauty of the area with the whole natural aspect. We've got a prime location for some great things to happen.

O: So not much push back...the historic uses of particularly the ditch companies, water companies and that sort of thing? The changing cultural value is interesting. You kind of started that even with what you see in the kids.

U: The kids now...they're not farm kids anymore. They look a lot different than they did. Even out in some of our rural areas, those families have moved. Their kids have grown up and they've moved out of the area. So we lose some of that richness of youth coming up and staying and adding their creativity and their energy.

O: We notice that we don't often see people on the river, families on the river, a father and son fishing as much as you used to and whatever factors that are the base of the culture.

U: That's a real good point because I think it's difficult to get down to the river often times. And then most people don't have a license, a fishing license, don't know how to go about getting a fishing license and that's a very calming activity.

O: A real bonding thing. Something that a child would bring would bring up as he or she grows...that experience.

U: And maybe that's something we can talk about, something you could do that you could tie in with. Verde River Days has really tied to do that because they have the whole pond that they let people fish in. Then if you do that a couple of times and really kind of promote some connections with the schools. You can do that. Schools are open to those types of things. You could say, "You know what. This is our fishing day." We're going to learn about...you'd have some people who would say "No, I don't want my child to fish." That's okay. At least you've got others. If you don't want to fish, you come and learn about how the habitats work there. Some different things to get people back out to love their area.

Q 8: Who do you think might be interested in using the findings of this Verde River Economic Development Study, including the results of interviews such as this one?U: I would say your wine consortium, your restaurants, your agriculture people, your schools. I'd say your civic organizations would like to hear a report on that. I would say your leaders in your communities. So it would be interesting to see what people's perspectives are.

O: Basically the business and education communities, sounds like. And the leaders...our elected officials.Do you have any ideas that we...you mentioned the two big water events, the Verde River Days and the Birding Festival...so do you have any ideas of how the Verde River could be a focal point for economic development. The wine industry was another one.

U: Do you know what's happening with anyone with small farming?

O: What I hear, and I don't have any data, I do hear that there is a push to get people back to growing foods and particularly, it's very trendy now across the nation to have restaurants and hotels using locally grown produce and I hear and see people really trying to go that way. Particularly in Cornville and Page Springs. And now if that can be an economically viable profession? It would be nice to see it.

U: It would I think.

O: I know that if you look at the national trends and just take it back down to the Verde Valley, we're just the same, just on a smaller scale.

U: Right. And I think there's been a lot of concern lately of how far food is shipped and how you can keep that a little bit more local. So I don't know if that's an area to develop a little bit more.

O: It's a great idea. Besides looking at users of the water for recreation and being an attractive place to live, but also actually being functional for diversifying economy.

U: This may be a small item, but from an educator's view point, both out in Cornville with Oak Creek and here with the Verde, I always thought what a great opportunity to do some real research with higher education universities and colleges with a collaborative effort with elementary, high school.

Really doing some research. You've got the kids here that can do the research if those studies are there. What is it we really need to know. And how we can utilize from an educational standpoint true research is going to benefit our knowledge of how to sustain the health of it. When we do things like that, then there's a taking ownership of our resources and we're part of that and then that becomes a little more important from each of our kids and anyone who's involved to have a higher level of concern to make sure they're part of keeping our rivers healthy. And making sure that we're maintaining.

O: I like your piece about taking ownership.

U: I don't think there's any ownership right now. I don't mean that. There are some. I think for most of us, we can easily forget. We just think "Oh, there it is." And we forget it. When you really remember it is there is when we are in flood season and you go "My gosh, look at the power of this thing." And then you wonder what it was like before everything was kind of, when it was running wilder than what it is now.

O: And we were dependent upon it.

U: Absolutely.

O: Our Verde Valley culture was dependent upon it for many reasons.

U: And the native Americans. They were smart. They knew where to locate and grow their crops.

O: So if you were given $5M, say somebody dumped $5M into the Verde Valley on behalf of the river, where do you think it could be spent? I know that one thing would be the schools. I could see your eyes light up.

U: Yeah, $.5M could do a whole lot. We'd be your research center, we'll do whatever you need us to do, to be a hands-on working, real...kids need to be researchers. They don't just need that sage of the stage. They need to be out researching. So let them have at it. Then we could take the $5M...that's a really good question. I'm going to have to think on that one. I keep going over to the other side of the mountain, too. Because I understand, I know when you're a community and you have...Arizona needs water. It's the most precious thing...better than gold. $5M or water. Which one are we going to take. Long term, you want the water. I think if I had $5M, I would really try to take a look at those. I think we're underestimating...not underestimating. I think the wine industry has great potential and I think that coupled with what that brings. It isn't just the growing of the grapes. It brings a whole other layer of economic development to this community.

O: And educational opportunities at Yavapai College.

U: Absolutely. And those kids will be able to go any place and be a contributor to the wine industry. They won't just have to stay here. Some will stay here, and now they have something to stay for. And enrich our own community.

O: We can keep that talent right here.

U: I'm a dreamer. It takes work. It takes people who really kind of buy that vision. Just like the wine industry. But those connections should go through education at every level. How we bring all those

pieces together so a kid doesn't all of a sudden go "Wine industry? What does that mean?" Not just wine, grapes do other things. Just raise some grapes. There's other things. So I think kids can be involved in a number of ways in sharing the growth of the community and being an active contributor to that. We underestimate, we truly underestimate elementary kids and what they can give as well.

O: From the perspective of their skills as well as the soil, to grown their education and continue to be residents of the Verde Valley.

U: One of my favorite things when I did teach out at Oak Creek. The river was 10 minutes down a dirt road. I'd take my 1st grade class down there with their journals. We would sit and we would write. That was peaceful. We did it weekly. And then as I taught older grades, we would go down and collect crawdads and all sorts of things to study, learn about. It was a wonderful opportunity for kids to kind of let their grip out and be kids while they're still exploring and learning. And that's what learning is about. Exploration. Those are the things that would be wonderful if we could ever get back to a smaller level in our fast paced world.

O: We as parents see our talented children leave the area, get their education and leave the area. I hear you say that the river could be something that brings them back. Gives them opportunities as well as that piece.

U: I think so. I think we have a great area and that's why the river has been our life blood.

A final and especially complex question to be asked depending on the conceptual sophistication of the interviewee’s responses to questions 1-7 above:What ideas do you have about what can be done to make the Verde River a focal point for regional economic development?In closing, each interviewee may be asked (at the discretion of the interviewer): o Who else should be interviewed? o Where, in your opinion, could/should money be spent to strengthen the link between the river and sustainable economic development?o Is there anything about this study that concerns you? If so, what and why?

Additional questions may emerge as a function of initial interviews and document analysis.

Casey interviewing Mark Tufte, Country Bank, Feb. 10, 2011, at County Bank--okay for recording, doesn't have to be anonymous, yes to approval required

Q 1: What do you think are the most significant factors influencing the health of the Verde River system?I'm relatively new to the area, been here about 3 years, so I may not be as familiar as others. I'm sure is very similar to other areas I've lived in where the usage of the water can impact the the health of it. Today we learned about invasive species there at a Rotary meeting. That's another factor. Third, another factor influencing is those trying to tear up the health of it. Some who are focused on what's causing negative things to it, but I think sometimes it's as important to find out who is out there tapping it. That has a lot of influence.

Q2: Do you feel there are things about the Verde River that we need to understand better? If so, what are they?It's about education. If we understand what the benefits of the Verde River are for the community, how we can help. So it doesn't just become a sense but I think you've got to have good knowledge sometimes to remind people how important it is.

Q 3: To your knowledge what, if any, economic development activities have recently been, or are currently being, conducted that directly relate to the Verde River? Who is involved in these activities? I don't know of any banking activities in relation to the river. The only thing that comes to mind right now is that I know that there's a lot of tourism that is based off of the river, there's tubing down the river, which ties in an activity that can also be related to the wine industry that's growing here. There's Verde River Days which is a big tourist attraction of the Chamber and State Parks partners on. So there's a lot of different things that really make a difference that we have this river.

Q 4: What potential economic development opportunities exist which are associated with the Verde River system in the Verde Valley? I think that when you basically have a river system, there's just so many things. I've travelled over different countries, we've had the places where they had not necessarily a restaurant right on the river, but they've had places where you could rent a grill, purchase small amounts of foods that you can grill and sit there right on the river and eat your food. There's somebody there to clean up after you, but you get to have a picnic right by the river. The companies that we have going right now could really use help in being promoted and they might really expand out with the offers that they have here. I'm sure that there's gotta be some unique species that we have in this area that we could truly promote. You can drive through and not even know that we've got a river. For me, being a new person here, I only know of a few points where you have access. Again it's education, so we know where we can go on and enjoy it. Unfortunately there are a lot of landowners that everywhere we walked up, ???? on the land. Unless you know them, you're not really able to visit that portion. There are businesses trying to do something on the river, so how can we support them.

Q 5: In your opinion, what information and facts are there that could be used to promote and advance the connection between the Verde River and potential sustainable economic development in the Verde Valley?There's always a study that could be done, and it would be great just to see the financial impact and how it ties in to the growing wine industry. People may come for one thing, but they enjoy the river while they're here. They might go raft the river and do other things. It would be nice to do a study and see how our community thrives on what the river can do for us. It would be nice to know how these smaller businesses that are utilizing the river, how they might be able to grow if they had a little more support or access to it.

Q 6 Who are important potential supporters in advancing the connection between a healthy Verde River and sustainable economic development?Who are the supporters or who should be supporting? I think some of the larger employers of the community. In order for them to have a good business here, the community has to be economically strong. For the community to be strong, you got to be able to have some ??? and that river is an important piece of this puzzle. Not every community has a river, especially one that's as nice as the one

that we have. Anybody that's a large landowner wants to protect the value of their land ownership, they want to make sure that they know where things are going. And to some degree, those that care about the environment. They need to be as informed as can be because they need to know if there's a fish or a bird that we're fortunate to have that they can ensure that they continue to thrive. All the people who come to town for the Birding Festival are supporters.

Q 7: What or who do you see as current or potential barriers to advancing sustainable economic development in connection with a healthy river( for example, laws and regulations, property rights, institutional like ditch companies, water companies, historic uses, etc.), changing cultural values? (If response is that “there are too many,” ask for top 3-5…interviewer’s discretion)To me the biggest barrier is just educational. A lot of people don't understand the effect of the river. If you're a landowner, you're so worried that somebody's going to do something to impact you and in a way you don't realize that it could be encouraging and positive for you. And they shut down. That's always a big hurdle for anything. I think people concerned for water usage in general. Education for those that are concerned about over usage but it all come to their education. If people really knew how we could better treat the river and make better use of it, it doesn't necessarily mean that it will run out of water or that effect their land values.

Q 8: Who do you think might be interested in using the findings of this Verde River Economic Development Study, including the results of interviews such as this one?I really think anyone...businesses that are thinking of coming to the area, I think lenders like myself, we'd like to know. I think anyone who is thinking of investing here, moving here, buying a house here, raising a family here. Everyone would be interested because it heightens everybody's life. I take my daughter down to the river to play. So if I'm looking for a place that could provide a nice spot for my family, and I know the river and if it's going to be there, and how healthy it is, and could I put a business here. I know that there are activities.

Do you know what could be done to make the Verde River a focal point for regional economic development?That is a complex question. You know, I think that this is a starting point, by having this study done. I'd tie in different studies into one. And tying all the communities into one. Everybody that's along this river should somehow form a partnership to really promote the benefit of this river and what can be available there to everyone, whether it's through promoting their community to bring businesses in, or for tourism or for any different matter. I think that it's a team matter. I think you just can't do it with one or two people and you can't just do it with one city. I think you've got to bring all people that are impacted by the river into it. We all need to focus on it.

Been in Verde Valley 3 years. Interacts by going to river for fun. Has taken tours of the river through the canyon outfitters or can't remember what the company is that does rafting. Through Richard Lynch. Has visited business owners that have commercial interests along the river. One is a bed and breakfast and ????? offer them to use part of their business.

How would you spend $5M on behalf of the Verde River?Wow! I would probably create a campaign to educate and inform people of how we can care for the river, how we can set up volunteer groups to go in and take out invasive species, do maybe some studies so that people understand the economic impact. Somehow I'd relate it to tax dollars, and also just educate people where the access points are and how you can better enjoy without being down on a tube.

Anybody else to be interviewed?Phil Terbel, Cottonwood Real Estate

Where could the money be spent to strengthen the link between the river and sustainable economic development?I definitely know it is valuable to show the tax dollars because, until people see a dollar figure, unfortunately, they don't respect the value of the river on their business. It depends on how many widgets I sell. Sometimes you don't sell the widgets because people don't see the river, or they go onto the river, and your business nearby the river. That's the most important.

Anything about this study that concerns you? It wasn't done sooner. ?????

Casey interviewing Sally Odette, APS Economic Development, January 18, 2011, in Casey's office

Q 1: What do you think are the most significant factors influencing the health of the Verde River system?I would like to preface the answers to my questions that I am a resident of the Phoenix metro area, so my knowledge of the Verde River system dates back to high school. Since I do not reside in the area where the Verde River is a piece of the community, I don't know that I will have all the information necessary to respond to your questions. I guess my answer to the question would be just working in the area through the years and also living and enjoying the Verde River way downstream outside of Fountain Hills, I would say that one of the most significant factors could be water usage by industries that maybe use a lot of water at the top of the river to the bottom of the system...could be a significant factor in the future. Also if recreation isn't done appropriately, there could be an issue with waste, waste management of the whole system down the river if people aren't picking up after themselves, etc. I'm not really that well spoken or don't know as much about the people drilling wells along the waterways. I'm not a flood expert or a water expert. I would leave it with industry consciousness and people consciousness.

Q2: Do you feel there are things about the Verde River that we need to understand better? If so, what are they?As a lay person and in my job in economic development more in the Phoenix area, but working throughout this state, I think the whole river system in the whole state of Arizona, not just the Verde River, people need to understand better what that means. Where the waters come from, who uses the waters, basically better knowledge of water in Arizona. There's surface water, there's the river water, there's when you dig wells, I think that might be considered surface water. Even in my industry, which is economic development, I think we all need...it needs to come to the surface more on the use of river waters and how they're distributed, what they actually play in the game besides running downhill. Definitely a better understanding, education, in laymen's terms. Are there data gaps? I wouldn't really know specifics on that. I've heard several presentations on that up in this area about the ?? of the Verde River waters and other water uses and again probably not my area of expertise, but it needs to be clear that people can understand what you're talking about. Hydrologists, or those who give presentations, the general person would lost in that. I think education and communication is a must. Not just for this area, but for the rest of the state. Wells? I don't know the current law, and I think there's some ground people already grandfathered in and what you might could do if you became a

newcomer and you could dig a well. I'm not sure they've changed that, and I don't know the answers to that, but I would want to know just as a person who works from the area.

Q 3: To your knowledge what, if any, economic development activities have recently been, or are currently being, conducted that directly relate to the Verde River? Who is involved in these activities? With sustainable economic development or just economic development? You've got activities. I'm thinking of sand and gravel, maybe along the river. I don't know if they've gone into the sustainable world. Probably have with some of their practices. The budding wine industry I think would use water. I don't know if they're a high water user or not. Just trying to determine the agricultural activities versus the more base industry activities that might be going on related to the river. Not only in this area, but downstream as well. I don't know of economic development things that are going on down in Phoenix that effect the river. I'm trying to think the flow of the Verde...it doesn't really flow through New River, no that's not it...it's the Agua Fria. I really don't think it comes out close to many communities except this area and Fountain Hills residential area, Rio Verde another residential area, the whole well situation in that area probably is pulling from the river. Ending communities. I'm not aware of anything specific. That would be something to really look into as you look at a map and see where it flows. I would say the agriculture is the only thing I'm aware of. In this area, I don't know about downstream. When you're looking at the use of the river, you probably need the study to look at the top of the river to the bottom of the river, not just the Cottonwood area. Sand and gravel are always operations around rivers or dry river beds, too.

Q 4: What potential economic development opportunities exist which are associated with the Verde River system in the Verde Valley? If you're talking specifically associated with the river system, it would most likely have to be agriculture. You don't want an economic development opportunity...you don't necessarily want a high water user if you're looking or talking about base industry. You're also in this area, which I know there are some really good roots already, would be the whole budding tourism industry whether it's related to activities on the river, birding, agri-tourism. Tourism would be a big plus for this area, building on that a bit more. In my communities, the majority being in the economic field, I consider tourism a direct opportunity in economic development. Some people might not feel that as pure economic development. I personally do. The way that industry can now work, you might tap into some regional headquarters somehow. They're not water users, they like a nice environment. To look at communities that have done some sustainable economic development around a river (i.e., Sacramento, San Antonio, Colorado, Durango), some of those communities. For example, Durango is very tourist in nature, but there may be opportunities there, but again, you're talking about a community in an area with the exception of Camp Verde, that's a little bit off the highway system, 15 minutes is no big deal nowadays. The road improvements have helped tremendously with flow of traffic. I don't know why you wouldn't be positioned to do more like the Prescott area has done to bring in Prescott Valley. They've been successful and this area could be, too.

Q 5: In your opinion, what information and facts are there that could be used to promote and advance the connection between the Verde River and potential sustainable economic development in the Verde Valley? I'm not totally aware of all the information and facts that exist, but I go back to my other answer. If you're trying to build a sustainable economy, you want the businesses that come in to be able to be sustaining eventually on their own and you need to make that connection between the facts about the

river back to education, about what that means. What does that mean to keep the river flowing, and active, in relation to your economy that you're going to continue to develop over time. What are those businesses that are going to be sustaining in time. In answer to your question about the B3, I think, and that's business retention program that the city of Cottonwood uses. Knowing about where your businesses are at and what their potential plans are and building that education component to sustainable economic development. What does that really mean for this area? Sustainable in these days is kind of a catchall term. So each area is defining it for themselves. Sustainable because you're keeping jobs, any jobs that are currently in your community here, or is it sustainable because you're moving on to renewable energy and other pieces that probably created the word sustainable in economic development.

Q 6 Who are important potential supporters in advancing the connection between a healthy Verde River and sustainable economic development?You have your municipalities and their water departments that are connected with that. You also have Salt River Project, because they are a big water arm in the state of Arizona. You would have them involved. You would also have your major utilities involved in that. Again in education, NAU and anything that they would have. Yavapai Community College. All those people need to be supporters in advancing the connection whether it would be education linked or economic development linked. They all need to play together to make it successful.

Q 7: What or who do you see as current or potential barriers to advancing sustainable economic development in connection with a healthy river( for example, laws and regulations, property rights, institutional like ditch companies, water companies, historic uses, etc.), changing cultural values? (If response is that “there are too many,” ask for top 3-5…interviewer’s discretion)I'm not an expert in any of this, by some of the examples that were given, definitely the water companies that are linked. The top three would be the water companies, SRP, municipalities. That would not be a strong question for me to answer. Don't know any laws or regulations. Yavapai County, back to the well situation, I think they've recently...Maricopa County has recently...rewritten those types of agreements for land owners. Again some of them are down at the bottom end of the Verde around the Rio Verde, Fountain Hills area. I'm not sure up here. The county would be a big player.

Q 8: Who do you think might be interested in using the findings of this Verde River Economic Development Study, including the results of interviews such as this one?I would think the communities in the Verde Valley would definitely try to use pieces of the outcome of the study as they go forth and update or change their economic development direction. Also, the findings of the study in layman's terms, the public would be important fro them to understand and also for the people that might be thinking of or are currently in tourism or agri-businesses along the river. Of course, APS would always like a copy of a study like this as we work with communities in the future, we are always mindful of what's in there and bring it to people's attention. But we're not really in the water business. We are in the economic development business and we have an area manager in the area who I believe is better versed in water issues than I am. I would encourage you to interview Wayne Ferguson as well. Definitely we would want to see the results of this.

Ideas you have about making the Verde River a focal point for economic development?I would think would be for the communities to be able to come together and decide the mission and the focus for regional economic development would be the Verde River. They would all have to focus on that. Especially in the tourism arena. That would be this region could become famous for. Really if you think about it and know the state of Arizona, besides the San Pedro River, this is where it would be at.

For Arizona, a desert and an arid state, it would be a great promotional tool to entice businesses to come and look at this area. Your infrastructure and everything needs to be in place to make that happen. Not just what the river has to offer.

Who else to interview?Wayne Ferguson, Matt who used to be with the forest piece of APS, somebody in forestry

Where could be money be spent to strengthen link between river and economic development?Start with the results of this study, and the region needs to work on a sustainable economic plan. That would cost money to do. You need to build the whole river component into that. The river needs to be the focus and the mission of the regional effort. Does it bring high paying jobs? It could. Most tourism jobs are not high paying, but again you set the stage for that environment and as time goes on, bigger fish will come to this area. I would personally go for regional headquarters in the long view of things. L.L. Bean needs to branch out of cold weather and come into other types of recreation. That's a good choice. I was thinking of Microsoft or something like that. Maybe not that big. Arizona is not a state that attracts many regional headquarters. I know at the Phoenix and bigger level they're trying to do that or they're thinking about going that direction. We've been doing it for years. Those people like to have an attractive surrounding. Just making sure everything in the Verde area is very clean and progressive.

Concerns about study?People might be "Oh, another study. What does that mean?" What are the results of this study going to do? I encourage you to make sure you go ahead with the planning and implementation. If it shows that it's worthy to move forward to.

Doug Von Gausig's interview with Charles Seiverd, January 20, 2011, Charles@thenoise.us, 9286345031 ? recorded? no remain anonymous? no approve anything written? if recorded, should be okWe have some specific questions and we can expand on these as makes sense. The protocol remains very specific to the things to be asked and answered. We're going to be putting this together in a very scientific way. And remember that all these questions have to do with the kind of economic development of the Verde River and how we might tie these two things together. This provides the framework for the whole discussion.

Q 1: What do you think are the most significant factors influencing the health of the Verde River system?

C: Hope that development, usage, recreational usage

D: Do you see that as a positive or negative on the river...recreational usage

C: Positive

D: So what else do you think influences the health of the river in the long term?

C: The long term...wildlife, I guess that correlates with development

D: Do you see a connection between development and wildlife a negative connection, I assume?

C: Yeah, obviously, yeah. And I would like to say agriculture, like agriculture was a big part of what the Verde Valley was 50 years ago and that's been slowly taken over by development. If we were to go back to the health of the Verde Valley and the river itself, I think that we should probably encourage more agriculture than development in the sectors.

D: Do you see local agriculture as being positive?

C: A positive trend, yeah.

Q2: Do you feel there are things about the Verde River that we need to understand better? If so, what are they?

C: 1. The connection between the Big Chino and SRP's relationship with that, that's a huge bit of the puzzle. Granted that we may reduce our usage here by 30-40% but it's being drained at a rapid rate upstream, we're gonna have even more serious problems.

D: So you think we need to understand better what the connection between withdrawals from the Big Chino and the flows of the Verde River.

C: Yeah, I think that the studies have already been there, but we need more public awareness as to what that truly means.

D: The word isn't getting out to the public about...

C: How very integral those two relationships are and definitely people that follow this are pretty well versed on it, but for the general population it doesn’t really sink in, probably.

D: You think it requires getting that picture out to who those people are? We'll talk later about some ways that the general population could be better informed.

Q 3: To your knowledge what, if any, economic development activities have recently been, or are currently being, conducted that directly relate to the Verde River? Who is involved in these activities?

C: Just big development, I guess.

D: So how are they directly related to the river?

C: The usage of the river upstream in Prescott and throughout the valley here. We're not correctly incorporating water conservation in our homes. There's a bunch of things we can do because we are growing sustainably as a community and as a state and as a system that's connected to the Verde Valley to reduce our use of water. It's like the gray water systems that can be mandated by municipalities that would definitely reduce our usage on the aquifer.

D: Just for my information, how do you see the aquifer connected to the river?

C: The aquifer is the basin of the river if I'm not mistaken. Granted there are confluences, but I understand that the Chino is a huge portion of that. Any time you have development along the river, you're essentially decreasing the amount of water that's available in its flow because obviously if you have a well 400' from the river, it's going to decrease its flow considerably.

D: Because it intercepts water on its way to the river?

C: Yeah

D: You're right about that. I'm trying to get a feeling for what your understanding is of that system, because it's a pretty complex system. You're correct, essentially all the ground water in the Verde Valley is discharging into the river. So as we intercept it, we decrease water that would get there.

Q 4: What potential economic development opportunities exist which are associated with the Verde River system in the Verde Valley?

C: Opportunities? Perhaps to increase the awareness of the Verde Valley, there might something along the lines of a Verde River walk centered through Old Town or even along the old Peck's Lake, Tavasci Marsh. If people think about Tavasci Marsh as a riparian area, it might allow the public a first hand acknowledgement of how the river is doing and how it has changed possibly from being overgrown by invasive species to how it can actually become a liveable system again.

D: So how do you see that related to economic development?

C: In that way, say, you were to create a Verde Valley River walk the town of Clarkdale could turn into a shining example of how the Verde River used to be or can be. That would be an economic engine that you could create as a tourist attraction and

D: And a quality of life enhancement?

C: Right.

Q 5: In your opinion, what information and facts are there that could be used to promote and advance the connection between the Verde River and potential sustainable economic development in the Verde Valley?

D: What information is there out there you have heard that would allow you to make some kind of connection to economic development?

C: Hmmm, what information. I don't know if it were for me personally, I'm aware of the Big Chino, of course, and I'm a native Arizonan and I realize obviously the continued problem with drought in this area...and drought in Arizona. As far as economic development, I guess I've been privy to and seen all kinds of new development come up without a whole lot of consideration for the ramifications of it. So far as information in the news media, unless you're really looking for it, it's kind of hard. I guess there are those 2 extremes. The one extreme of development is that it has a huge voice because it has some money behind it. The other voice is just kind of meek and it doesn't quite get out there. For the most part, the information by the developers have gotten out there and that is development and construction is good. It's a driver of the economy. It's a driver of Arizona's overall economy. So I think re-engaging

the populace on the idea that we can have growth with sustainability in mind would be something to consider in the future.

Q 6 Who are important potential supporters in advancing the connection between a healthy Verde River and sustainable economic development?

C: Absolutely, municipalities in this town, in this state. If we were to have more governance, I would hate to say, but more of a community speaking out for these issues instead being sucked into the ideologies of the developers. If the communities were to actually make a stand and consider this is important. We need to hang on to this part of this livelihood. That's the largest voice we can have. We're elected these officials as we are every year, and they are essentially kowtowing to the idea of the developers. We're kind of like losing a necessary advocate.

D: I've heard that in a few interviews. Some of the kinds of things that I think about. Some people voiced it as the river needs to become part of the identity. So maybe we'll talk about this a little bit at the end of this.

Q 7: What or who do you see as current or potential barriers to advancing sustainable economic development in connection with a healthy river( for example, laws and regulations, property rights, institutional like ditch companies, water companies, historic uses, etc.), changing cultural values? (If response is that “there are too many,” ask for top 3-5…interviewer’s discretion)D: What stands in the way of connecting the river to sustainable economic development?

C: A lot of what you mentioned there can't be overcome as far as institutional philosophy can't always be changed. As far as property rights, that's something that every private property owner that has land adjacent to the Verde River would like to see, some kind of connection to the river other than what they believe.

D: Why would they?

C: Why would they? The private owners 1. want to see the value of their land increase. With a greater education as to the value of the river, they would see that growth exponentially. If you are a landowner and you are next to the river, you automatically have an appreciation for that river to begin with otherwise you wouldn't be there. Was there another barrier?

D: We just came around to...the way I'm interpreting what you're saying is that one of the barriers to making this connection is again public awareness, appreciation, education. Do you feel that? And again I don’t want to put words in your mouth. Do you feel that if we were to enhance that identity of the communities with the river, connect them to the river, that that would be good for sustainability along the river, whereas what's going on now is kind of a barrier because the connections need to be made. Is that it?

C: Yeah. I think you really hit on it, yeah. We have to realize that it's a cycle. That you have to develop an awareness before you get on to these ideas of a Verde River walk or a sector of the Verde River which is unique and it's cyclical. The more that you begin talking about it, the more that the awareness grows and the more you can do, and the more you can say before it becomes a snowball effect.

Q 8: Who do you think might be interested in using the findings of this Verde River Economic Development Study, including the results of interviews such as this one?

C: The state legislators. The municipalities. Media outlets. Property owners. Big developers. For a large part, schools. It would be nice to have my kindergartener educated on the history of the Verde Valley at a level all the way through school. Field trips going to Tavasci Marsh, working on the river on the riparian areas, as part of a real project.

D: That's interesting, schools. Yeah. I regularly hear other things about schools. How they need to know the economic development opportunities. That would be interesting thing to take to the schools. You mentioned to developers, too. Generally when you talk about developers, you talk about in kind of a negative impact sense. Here you indicate to give them the results of this, what would be the impact. It would give them a chance to go in the other direction, a chance to see things a new way. Instead of saying we're going to build a community and make it just like every other community, or are we going to build some new concepts and develop a graywater tank or make all of the showers and washers to outside irrigation. We're reducing our usage on water to a large degree. Even going to the community that was built between Cottonwood and Clarkdale here. 50 houses, they could conceivably put all of their gray water into one system and then be able to use that water as either fertilizer or a way to…

D: Decrease their dependency on water?

C: Yeah.

D: So you think that if the developers were to understand this, it would be a sales point to be able to say that this development is green, more sensitive to the Verde River?

C: It places value on the Verde River. The more of a value you can give to the Verde River, the greater the impact will be. If we all get behind the idea that we have to save the Verde River, it's just a no brainer for the developer. If you present a developer with x amount people that feel that the river is worth saving, they will give a second thought to incentives that this town or county might give them for doing such things.

D: So a developer that says I'm on board with what the community wants is a good developer.

C: Right.

D: Last questions...what ideas do you have about what can be done to make the Verde River a focal point for regional economic development?

D: We already talked about several of these. Talked about enhancements to the marsh or bringing more people down to experience the river on whatever level they experience it. Ways to...you probably already answered this question.

C: As a focal point, as a tourist attraction, as a resource that need preserving. These are the two main things. I again...the education needs to happen from the ground level up. If a kindergartener or first grader were to come home from school and say "Hey, you know, this is interesting. You gotta go down to the marsh and check this out." It exponentially grows and the end results have to come at you.

D: So why isn't this being done?

C: I think primarily because a lot of our town halls are filled with Yes men for big developers. There's not a whole lot of consciousness, ideology left in civil service.

D: That's interesting that to hear you say that, because two of the mayors right here in Cottonwood and Clarkdale are two of the people who worked harder for the river than

C: Definitely Mayor Joens and yourself. I look at the mayor of Prescott Valley and to a certain degree the Prescott. Those two have a, and not just to rely on the mayor, but the council in general. Council has to really grab something by the horns to make it happen. It just can't be the mayors.

D: So the problem up there is for one thing, they don't see the Verde River in Prescott Valley and even in Paulden. The headwaters are essentially in Paulden, but they don't cross it every day, they don't see the greenway out their window. Their connection to the Verde River is pretty abstract. Yet, they have control over this large resource that contributes to the river, forms the first 24 miles of it. So how can we get them involved in something that they don't have connections with? That's a real problem. I think that's a big problem so far as the Big Chino is concerned. Basically the Big Chino is a resource for growth and to solve their problems of not having enough water. And they all know, we've all ???? till we're blue in the face that whatever they withdraw is going to reduce the flow of the Verde River. They have a...are highly motivated to deny that.

C: Sure.

D: So it's something that we struggle with all the time. Those of us that are in the water groupie bunch of people. How to bring them back out of this. The answer is not forthcoming. Not real clear.

C: What do you do to give them incentives.

D: Incentivize them.

C: Yeah.

D: (off the record talk)

D: Who else do you think we should interview about this? Who can you think of that has thought about the river or maybe hasn't thought about it.

C: I'd talk to Ellen Jo Roberts ?

D: Yeah, we have Lisa on there.

C: Maybe Laura Jones. She used to work in PR and marketing and might have some ideas on how to get the word out. Certainly if you squawk loud enough, eventually get some kind of permeable ear.

D: Where do you think we could spend money? Let's talk specifically, say the Walton Family Foundation. Let's say it was going to ...say tomorrow it was going to say "Doug we need 3 projects and you tell us sites to spend money to improve the health of the river."

C: You get so tied up with lobbying you know. It just seems that it would be wonderful if there were a simple way to say "hey, Prescott and Prescott Valley, we've got 10 different contractors here in the Verde Valley who would all like to improve your water conserving techniques" and they all come out for a free home inspection and we pay for that inspection and see if it needs to be taken care of and put our ideas to work. At least implement a few of them.

D: So one of the ideas you have is you might be able to spend money in the Big Chino, in the communities that might be drawing from the Big Chino, to improve their water conservation. Is that right?

C: Yeah, I think so. Aside from lobbying those councils and legislators that be, maybe the best thing would be to be proactive about it and say with a flyer in Prescott and Prescott Valley "Free home evaluations. Help conserve water. Lower your water bill and save water" It's very proactive but its...

D: And whatever happens that's going to actually solve this problem is going to have to be creative. It can't be something that everybody's thought of, because that ain't working. So you said lobbying the city councils and apparently lobbying the state legislature. What kind of organization would you see doing that?

C: There already are the friends of the Verde Valley and the Verde River, right? Some advocate group...

D: There's the Verde Watershed Association, the Verde River Conservation Association, lots of them

C: Yeah, there are lots of them. I don't know that you could lobby more than they've already been lobbyed..

D: Aren't they being effective

C: Possibly, but I don't see it. If you were to strike a number of constituents, get their constituents on board first and that way tell this councilman's neighbor that he can get free water audits from the Verde Valley water conservation fund or something. It almost has to come separate from the advocacy groups that already exist to save the Verde River. It has to be something that is above that is consistent with the idea of conserving water on the Big Chino.

D: Anything about this study, the way you understand it, that concerns you?

C: Is the Walton Family asking for anything in retribution?

D: No. This part of the foundation is not part of Walmart. They are the heirs of Walmart essentially. And they have a very strong environmental program and one of their programs is called the Fresh Water Initiative. What they're doing is working in several major drainages in the United States right now to improve and preserve those natural flows of rivers. So looking for all kinds of local projects that can improve the flows of the rivers and make sure they're sustainable for the future. So they don't like publicity. They don't even like their name associated with these things. They like the publicity to garnered by the organizations that are doing the studies and what not. So I've had about 2.5 years’ experience with them. I've never seen any signs that they have ulterior motive or want anything from it

other than having studies at work. They're very aware of their spending their money in a way that works rather than just being wasted.

C: That's the impression of ????

D: Other studies, when I started working with them a couple of years ago, they asked the question that I just asked you. Which is where can we spend money that will be effective in the health of the Verde River which has been talked about in various organizations. Now there are I believe 11 organizations in the Verde Valley that are spending WFF money to help the Verde River. This has never happened. It's about $1.1M right now. And that's unheard of. So it comes upon us, we're doing this particular study as to how the Waltons can spend money and how we can promote economic development. We believe that the only way to save the river is for economic development to have a stake in it, for people to go "It's good for my pocketbook to have a flowing river."

C: True.

D: I wish people were more altruistic than that, but that's what works. And you even mentioned it, if we had developers that were good developers who tied their operation to it, that's good for the river. A piece of practicality that we just have to promote. So yeah, I don't see any ulterior motives. Anything else consern you about this study?

C: No. So you say there are now 11 different organizations that are all created from the same pool. They all have pretty much the same agenda, right?

D: The base agenda is the health of the Verde River, but each has a completely different plan. One of them is devoted to removal of the invasive species to the river. One is devoted to improving the water conservation, water use efficiency in Sedona in the hospitality industry. That's a huge water user. The Verde River Basin Partnership was funded about $250m to conduct studies about our knowledge of the Verde River system in the Verde Valley. Doing the water budgets that's specifically being done by the USGS. The Sustainability Park in Clarkdale as well as the connection that we intend to show and prove to other communities about how we can efficiently use effluence so that we can reduce the demand on the Verde River. Each of these projects has a different mission but they are all tied together because in the end they will all enhance the health of the river.

C: As far as the Big Chino is concerned, the powers that be there, are they talking about any kind of decrease in the amount, any kind of conservation (recording stopped)

DVG Interview with Supervisor Chip Davis, 1/25/2011, 11:15 am in his office, Cottonwood

Domain: What are the most significant factors influencing the health of the river system? Q 1: What do you think are the most significant factors influencing the health of the Verde River system?Upstream development and streamside (Verde Valley) development that withdraws groundwater are negatives to the flows of the Verde River. One positive mentioned was the possibility of reaching “confined aquifers” that do not communicate with the surface water,

extracting that water and allowing it to percolate back into the unconfined aquifers that feed the river.Domain: What, if any, are the “data gaps” in our knowledge of the Verde River’s value and health? Q2: Do you feel there are things about the Verde River that we need to understand better? If so, what are they?We need to understand the connection between groundwater and surface water better. We need to know where confined aquifers are and how we can exploit them without damaging the VERDE RIVER. We need better, more comprehensive understanding of the hydrogeology of the Verde Valley and the VERDE RIVER basin.Domain: Who, if anyone(s), is currently working effectively to connect the Verde River system with sustainable economic development? Q 3: To your knowledge what, if any, economic development activities have recently been, or are currently being, conducted that directly relate to the Verde River? Who is involved in these activities? Local food agriculture, olives, community gardens, etc. Verde Canyon RR, Just the overall experience of seeing the VERDE RIVER greenway from the top of Copper Canyon appeals to people. The efficiency of modern agricultural techniques means that we can still grow the same amount we did in the past, despite the loss of irrigated acreage to “ranchettes.”

Domain: What potential economic development opportunities exist which are associated with the Verde River system in the Verde Valley? Q 4: What potential economic development opportunities exist which are associated with the Verde River system in the Verde Valley? We could have much more outdoor recreation, and more coordination of efforts to “brand” the VERDE VALLEY as an outdoor recreation destination. “Total Outdoor Recreation” destination marketing needs to be a combined effort for all the cities and towns in the VERDE VALLEY and the various Chambers of Commerce.Trails in and around the VERDE RIVER need to be contiguous and need to be maintained so as to attract new users.Domain: What data exist that can be used to promote and advance the connection between the Verde River and the design and development of a sustainable economy in the Verde Valley? Q 5: In your opinion, what information and facts are there that could be used to promote and advance the connection between the Verde River and potential sustainable economic development in the Verde Valley? The “Verde Front” trails effort needs to be better publicized, and the trails used. The USFS efforts to enhance recreational use are not being heard. There is a “Sustainable Recreational Management Plan” that people don’t know about. There need to be more GIS applications aimed at the VERDE RIVER and VERDE VALLEY recreation. Developers and business owners need to hear that the VERDE RIVER is the “Goose that Laid the Golden Egg,” and that to damage it by excessive groundwater withdrawals, insensitive development, etc. will ultimately damage their livelihood.

Domain: Who are important potential allies in advancing the connection between a healthy river and sustainable economic development? Q 6: Who are important potential supporters in advancing the connection between a healthy Verde River and sustainable economic development?Chambers of Commerce and other economic organizations, businesspeople.

Domain: What/who are, or may be, barriers to advancing sustainable economic development in connection with a healthy river, e.g., laws and regulations, property rights, institutional (e.g., ditch companies, water companies, historic uses, etc.), cultural intransigence? Q 7: What or who do you see as current or potential barriers to advancing sustainable economic development in connection with a healthy river( for example, laws and regulations, property rights, institutional like ditch companies, water companies, historic uses, etc.), changing cultural values? (If response is that “there are too many,” ask for top 3-5…interviewer’s discretion)State laws dealing with surface water appropriation are based on conditions and realities of the early 1900’s. These need to change to allow better stewardship of the VERDE RIVER. There needs to be a legal mechanism that demands protection of VERDE RIVER flows. The legal disconnect between groundwater and surface water is a real barrier to success. The VERDE RIVER should have its own appropriation, but there is no legal way to do that in today’s Arizona. An Instream flow right for the VERDE RIVER is in order.Invasive species are a real concern. They displace natives and take up a lot of water. Natives “belong” in the VERDE RIVER system, not invasives. He really wants to see the native fish re-established in the river.Domain: Who are potential collaborators/outside experts who might be valuable in productively using study findings? Q 8: Who do you think might be interested in using the findings of this Verde River Economic Development Study, including the results of interviews such as this one?“Verde River 101” needs to be taught to all new elected officials in the county, state, cities and towns and tribes. We are not doing a good job of getting the word out as to what we know and what the facts are. Officials have disparate views and ideas about the system, and many are just untrue. We need to reinforce what we know on a continuing basis.Possibly the Yavapai County Water Advisory Committee (WAC) could be the organization that does this. Q9: A final and especially complex question to be asked depending on the conceptual sophistication of the interviewee’s responses to questions 1-7 above:

What ideas do you have about what can be done to make the Verde River a focal point for regional economic development?

In closing, each interviewee may be asked (at the discretion of the interviewer): o How long have you resided in the Verde Valley?

Since 1990

o In what ways do you interact with the Verde River?

I sit on the river upstream from Clarkdale, near the old gravel pits (Freeport’s land) and do my office work. We have picnics along the river. Often just sit at the river’s edge and enjoy the solitude and ambience.

o If you were given $5 million to spend on behalf of the Verde River, how might you spend it?

I’d purchase ditch rights and sever and transfer those rights to a downstream user, then allow that amount of water to bypass the diversions, thereby ensuring a continuous flow past the diversions. I’d buy/lease/acquire land or easements along the river to allow for contiguous access along its course. I’d improve recreational access at Mingus Avenue (notes that is County property and not being used), Tuzigoot Bridge, and other points along the river.

o Who else should be interviewed?

The “man on the street” and “right-wing conservative capitalists.”

o Where, in your opinion, could/should money be spent to strengthen the link between the river and sustainable economic development?

NAo Is there anything about this study that concerns you? If so, what and why?

The study could run into trouble with private property interests along the Verde River who may not want to see more use of the river or an improved VERDE RIVER greenway.

2/13/2011, Doug Von GausigNotes on anecdotal discussions with 10 people recreating along the Verde River and at Tavasci Marsh

I informally interviewed several small groups of people while they recreated along the Verde River on Sunday, February 13th, 2011. The interviews took place between the area at the Cottonwood Ditch diversion (foot of Tuzigoot NM) and the viewing platform on the east side of Tavasci Marsh.

1. A family of mom & dad, 3 children, ranging in age from about 6 to 15. They were fishing just below the diversion. They fish the river and picnic along it in various places, this being one of their favorite fishing holes. The father saw draught as the main threat to the river. They live in Cottonwood and also enjoy fishing at Dead Horse Ranch SP, and a few other accessible spots along the river. In his mind, the river has not changed much in the 18 years they have lived here.

2. A middle-aged couple, who sat along a rather remote and quiet stretch of the river downstream from Tuzigoot were enjoying the “solitude and solace.” They do this frequently, and, although they live adjacent to Riverfront Park in Cottonwood, they choose not to use that area for solitude, since it has been so drastically developed as a sports facility and City Park. They regret that change to their “back yard.” They were very negative about the way the City of Cottonwood has developed the park, and were very concerned that the city plans a wastewater treatment facility for that area. They have lived in the area about 12 years.

3. Two ladies sat on the viewing platform at Tavasci Marsh, just enjoying the winter sunshine and the quiet. They frequent the river for that opportunity to be in a quiet, thoughtful, peaceful setting. They have lived in Cottonwood for 12 and 6 years.

4. Two tourists from Wisconsin came to the Verde Valley while they were just exploring Arizona. They were in AZ on a business conference trip, staying in Phoenix. They enjoyed the river and the marsh and were very pleasantly surprised by the “greenness” of Arizona and especially the Verde River. They found the Verde Valley pretty much by chance.

5. A couple from the UK visited the viewing platform at Tavasci Marsh for 30 minutes or so. They rented a house near Cottonwood for a couple of months and have grown to love Arizona and the Verde River. They are casual birders and found the marsh and river to excellent nature sites.

Nearly all mentioned solitude, peacefulness, “recharging their soul,” quiet, and those kinds of values as the main reasons they visit and recreate along the river.

More informal encounters and interviews of this sort could prove extremely useful to the study.

Doug Von Gausig (D) interview with Max Castillo (M) at his Dead Horse State Park office on January 21, 2011Q 1: What do you think are the most significant factors influencing the health of the Verde River system? Influencing it positively or negatively?M: I would say one of the biggest issues right now is the invasives, there are so many invasive plant species up and down the river. That's making a big dent in it. The other would be the amount of water use. D: The amount of water use where? Which water?M: EverywhereD: EverywhereM: because the ground water and surface water are connected contrary to popular beliefD: Contrary to state law?M: Right contrary to state lawD: So you're saying that ground water has a connection to the surfaceM: YepD: Can't believe that. On invasive species, I've heard this before. I'm trying to get an idea of how people see invasive species being a negative influence on the river.M: Well, from everything that I've heard, some of the invasive species use more water than the natives as far as the evapotranspiration and so if you have a large population of plants that use more water for that purpose than that's going to affect the amount of water used.D: Reducing the flow of the riverM: Yeah, it's reducing the flow. It could be reducing the habitat for the birds and animals. You know, some of the trees, about the only thing they really provide really nicely is the shade. You know, the

Ailanthus tree would be one. (DVG note: Ailanthus is Ailanthus altissima, or Tree of Heaven, an invasive tree from SE Asia) It provides good nesting, I guess, for, you know, we have a lot of birds nesting in the Ailanthus trees but there's no food value to it. I haven't found anything that eats that that I'm aware of D: Because they didn't co-evolve.M: Right, it's kind of like the tamarisk that's replacing some of the stuff that's natural out there and the animals are using it. That's because that's what they've got to use.D: So what do you think is the most problematic invasives?M: Well, for us, here on the greenway, I would say that most problematic are the Ailanthus which is shading out not only the vegetation along the river of the upper reaches right on the river usually, then on the terraces right above it and then even up above that would be the Ailanthus trees. We have a big problem with the Ailanthus, well not a real big problem with tamarisks on the river.D: Salt cedar?M: Yeah, salt cedar (DVG note: “Salt Cedar” and “tamarisk” are the same plant.) and then the pampas grass is actually getting to become more and more of a problem and it's started at the bridge and working its way downstream. There's a few upstream.D: So what's it displacing?M: It's just displacing the natural vegetation understory along the river.D: And Arundo? (DVG note: Arundo donax, or Giant Reed, is an invasive plant that looks like cane or bamboo and came from SE US.)M: Yeah, Arundos are another bad one that we're having trouble with. They're starting to spread, getting bigger patches. I was going across Oak Creek in Cornville the other day and it's sad that you cross the Cornville Bridge to look both up and downstream to see the amount of Arundo that is growing there that didn't used to be there when I was a kid living in Cornville.D: Right. For transcription, Ailanthus altissima and Arundo donax giant reedM: People think of it as bamboo around here. D: Do think there are any positive factors influencing the health of the river these days?M: I think there is actually, I mean. People are starting to become more aware of how important the river is. I think before it was kind of taken for granted and now there's a bigger base of population of people that are caring about the river. And going out and trying to help with the invasive removal and trying to take care of it and picking up the litter and the trash.D: What's brought that on?M: I would like to think the Verde River Greenway brought part of it on with our outreach program and doing interpretive programs and such. I think it's just the awareness and the amount of notoriety that the river got in the battle between Prescott and the Verde Valley on pumping of the headwaters. That really brought it to the forefront of everybody's attention. Before, we were kind of that wet spot that ran down the valley.D: So they realized it was a threat so they started paying attention?M: Think so!Q2: Do you feel there are things about the Verde River that we need to understand better? If so, what are they?M: Well, I still think that we need to know more or better or get the word out more...I don't know what the wording is for that but...the importance of the river, I mean a lot of people still think it's just the river they'd see out there to use or abuse and do whatever they want do, down there because it's the river, it's their river. And, I think we need to be able to get the understanding out to everybody if we could, the idea about the connection between the ground water and the surface water and that we have to conserve water.D: 2 good studies coming out right now from WAC that are making that connection pretty directly

M: Right. I think sometimes the general population gets so much of that, yeah and, being somebody that is not a scientist, some of that information comes out in formats that I can't understand. It's like it's written in science which is great, butD: pretty hard to review itM: yeah, you either have to be a water groupie to get it or you have to know what they're talking about. If we could condense it, can make the Reader's Digest version, so people would be able to look at this and see what it means to me. I went to a meeting one time and they were talking about incising and aggregating. I said why don't you say cutting and filling? I guess they say because we earned our degrees, we have to say incising and aggregating. I said, "OK, and since I don't have a degree, I understand cutting and filling." D: So I'm interested in that on 2 levels: one is for this study certainly; but the other is as the co-chair of the WAC. We're going to be talking in the next couple of meetings about how to get this word out. How you educate the public without science-ese all the time, you know.M: It's hard.D: It is...it's a complex topic and...M: You can't make it too simple because then you lose the impact. But you can't make it so complicated that you lose the impact. And it's kind of like...you know I've done the groundwater flow model for kindergarteners and college-educated folks, and they all seem to get it because I can put it to the level of who I'm talking to. It seems to work out pretty good. I think they get it, but yeah, I think that is my biggest concern. There's a lot of good information out there, but people just don't get it.

D: So the answer in aggregate about this question, about what we need to understand better, is that we need to understand how to disseminate what we know about the river and the groundwater and the dynamics of the whole systemM: System, yeah, the habitat and its connection and, I know people get tired of hearing this, and I never thought I'd be considering myself a tree-hugger, but 99% of the time a tree-hugger because I can see that connection. And what we do to this affects that. We need to make people aware of that.D: And we're in the hierarchy somewhereM: Right. And we also have to understand that we are in that hierarchy and we can't manage anything excluding people.D: It just doesn't happen. Q 3: To your knowledge what, if any, economic development activities have recently been, or are currently being, conducted that directly relate to the Verde River? Who is involved in these activities? M: What do you define as economic development activities?D: I would say anything whose economics relate or depend to any extent on the river.M: I think a good example then would be the water to wine tour that Sedona Adventures puts on because it gets people out there on the river, any of their tours, and it also gets them to the Alcantara Vineyard where they're using water to grow things and shows the connection between the river and growing things. You know people kind of forget that I think farming gets a lot of short shrift on some of our discussions when we go to water issue meetings.D: So you just mentioned the value to the wine industry and this tour industry water to wineM: And the canoe tours that he does, just the kayak tours. It gets people out there on the water.D: And agriculture?M: And agriculture, I think is a big element. My fear is that I've watched Phoenix grow up as I was growing up. As I was driving into Phoenix, you go past all these lettuce fields and food and crop and orchards and now we've got Metro Center and this and that and the other. We can't keep buying our food from someplace else. One of these days we're going to have to tear all these things down and

move out and start growing things again because otherwise we're going to starve to death. So I think we need to remember farming and agriculture and all that we're doing.D: Do you think they have a positive impact on the Verde River?M: They can. I think they've got a (laugh) almost a better impact than they used to because, I know the irrigation companies take a lot of water out of the river, but they're also using less, I think, because more and more of the agricultural areas have turned into houses. So they're using less water for watering. They just divert the water out and put it back in farther down. Kind of misses a point.D: Can you think of anything that is less directly related to the river? You've been talking so far about things that actually use water from the river or you're in the river doing them. As you move out from the river, are there businesses that derive some economic benefit from the river?M: I guess this is a stretch, as I recall when they were building the Del Webb subdivision up here, Cottonwood Ranch, they did a show on the subdivision showing red tile roofs and a guy fly fishing saying that this is just a half mile from your yard.D: So they were selling quality of life things.M: Yes, and a lot of people use the river as "oh look, we're right close to the river, the Verde River flows through here" and so they use it that way in their advertising. I got the biggest chuckle out of that because they're advertisements in the paper with a guy fly fishing is right down here at Dead Horse. It's like okay. Economic development, it's mostly the quality of life they use. Most folks use that fact that the river is here. You have this green riparian corridor running right through the valley and that helps them.D: People have mentioned and we've read a lot lately about good businesses that relocate to areas are looking for that quality of life, indirect.M: If I owned a large corporation and had a choice of moving someplace with my manufacturing or whatever, I'd probably pick a place like this because it's got the different things for people to do. D: Happy employees.M: YesQ 4: What potential economic development opportunities exist which are associated with the Verde River system in the Verde Valley? D: We've kind of a similar question and we may have already covered it. Do you think that there are other things that could come here that aren't being done now that relate to the river?M: There probably is but I can't think of any right now. I came here in '66, and I kind of wish it hadn't gotten as popular as it had, because it was a lot more peaceful as it were. It's that whole I've got mine now you've got to go find your someplace else.D: Do you think that the river is over-utilized, under-utilized, right now? From the recreational standpoint? M: Yes, in spots it's over-utilized. That's the problem with it right now, kind of, is the access is limited so that the places where you have access to the river, get hammered. Whereas, the places that don't have access are pretty pristine, really, as far as not seeing a lot of problems. You get in a canoe here at the park and you see all of the development here at the park and you go past ?????? where we tried to change the river and you hang that turn and until you see the first houses, it's quiet. You wouldn't think you were in the middle of Cottonwood. You see the wood ducks and the otters and all that stuff and then you see the first houses and then you get between houses and then it's quiet and the otters and the birds and stuff, so it's...D: So as a manager like you are in the park system, which would you prefer? Do you like this kind of concentration and thereby protecting the long stretches? Or would you rather see the use spread out?M: As a manager, I like to see the concentration because it makes it easier to manage. If we have a river access point then you can try and deal with that at that access point. Whereas if, a prime example

is our paintball course we have over there by the Tuzigoot Bridge. Until we gave them that 3 acres to play paintball on, every weekend, I was chasing them to a different spot down the river.D: I remember that.M: Every weekend they would set up their forts and do their battles and they would beat down the ground, scare the wildlife, the nesting birds, and everything that was going on and then they'd move to the next spot the next weekend. I got tired of chasing them, so let's just put them here and that way this is a sacrifice, I realize that, but I don't have to chase them, and I'm not tearing up the habitat all up and down the river.D: Their impact is impact, a general impact.M: It's one of those hard to figure out which is the best.Q 5: In your opinion, what information and facts are there that could be used to promote and advance the connection between the Verde River and potential sustainable economic development in the Verde Valley? D: Are there facts that aren't getting out that if they did get out, you would have more economic development tied to the Verde River?M: I don't know those facts that are out there because there are so many different groups that have the information, but I don't know if anybody besides those groups. It's kind of like that every time you have the Verde River Basin Partnership meeting, it's the same cast of characters, the usual suspects. The same people go around the groups. I don't know how we get it out to the other people. D: It's been kind of the recurring theme so far with you is that the word isn't getting out and it's the word about the river or the hydrology of the system. M: Yes.D: None of this stuff like you feel is getting out there where it needs to go.M: Yea, to me it doesn't seem like it's getting out there where it needs to go because, I go to the meeting of the VRBP and we sign in and then we all say hello. We don't need to do introductions because we all know each other and then I go to the Verde River Citizens Alliance and it's the same thing. So, I think our problem is that we have some information, not all of it because there's studies that still need to be done, but it's just not getting out. I don't know how we can do that.D: You just said that there are studies that still need to be done. What do you think? Hydrological studies or environmental studies? You said habitat before.M: The VRBP is working on some hydrological studies and the connections betweenD: As is WACM: Yea, and that's all stuff that we can get in the impartial third party to do so that everybody can agree that it is an impartially done study. It might help. And I'm not talking about just here in the Verde Valley. I’m talking about both sides of the mountain. Just trying to get everybody to play niceD: And the legislatureM: YeaD: We need to know what we've got and what the trends are. Q 6. Who are important potential supporters in advancing the connection between a healthy Verde River and sustainable economic development?D: Who do you think would be important? Even a class of peopleM: Most of the local communities, city and town councils, mayors and all that stuff are pretty much aware of how important the health of the river is to the economic value because if the Verde River becomes the Verde Wash, I guess people would still live here butD: Oddly that in our next phase, we're probably going to study a little more carefully. It's kind of the simple hypothesis, what happens if you don't have a Verde River. Where are you then? What things would change if the Verde River dried up. I spent a lot of time just thinking about that question. The

various things that are going on around here and it's pretty amazing how the whole picture changes in the Verde Valley if you don't have the river and you don't think about those things.M: I think the important potential for a 406 right like you said would be the legislators, if we could get them to buy into this and to quit making rules that benefit certain towns over other towns. At some point, you've got to get people to buy into this. The importance is that you can't keep treating it like it will be there forever. Look at the Salt River going through Phoenix.D: Right, exactly.M: They spent, I read the article the other day, I think it was $80,000,000 that they spent on restoration for the Salt River. If they'd only give us $80,000,000 for the Verde River. What could be do with that? And it's a live river. We don't even have to restore it. We could just help it. Sometimes until it becomes a dead river, nobody wants to restore it. I think that's what it was, it was an article in the Arizona Republic.

Q 7: What or who do you see as current or potential barriers to advancing sustainable economic development in connection with a healthy river( for example, laws and regulations, property rights, institutional like ditch companies, water companies, historic uses, etc.), changing cultural values? D: like ditch companies, water companies, historic uses, changing cultural values, what kinds of things stand in the way of making that connection? Are there people whose oxen would be gored by making this connection?M: I think (laugh) is this going to be public? I think there's a misunderstanding a lot of times on both sides of...and I'm going to just go with the irrigation companies, the diversion companies--that take water out of the river. I go to the meetings for the save the river groups and they're all upset at the irrigation companies and I go to the meetings for the irrigation company because we get water from the irrigation ditches and they're all upset about the save the river group because they want to shut down the irrigation company. I think we need to be able to meet in the middle some place. And I know there's a lot of distrust and "this is the way it's always been down and that's the way we're always going to do it". I think there's a way, like I tell the folks at the save the river group when they're vilifying the ditch companies which we are one of, because the Hickey Ditch is almost entirely does serve Dead Horse State Park with 66 2M: 3 of the water rights. And there's a way to...what I tell them is that we need to help the ditch companies to get to their cooperators to learn to water more efficiently because right now the ditches were designed and developed for large irrigation projects. The ranches or farms were big, big, big farms. And they had the rotation so that if I was going to water to start my rotation at midnight, then by God I was up at midnight putting gates in to get my water and two days later my gates were gone and the next person was irrigating. What's happened it those big ranches and farms have been subdivided so much that everybody comes home at 5:00 or whenever and goes to water. They throw in a gate and irrigate their whatever because they can. If they would all follow their rotations, the companies wouldn't have to divert so much water. D: Is there a rotation here?M: There used to be. Now that they're divided up...there's still a rotation. The example is Cottonwood Ditch. I don't exactly know what the rotation is but from the head of the Cottonwood Ditch where Scott's Crossing was midnight Sunday to midnight Wednesday and then from Scott's Crossing down was from midnight Wednesay to midnight Sunday. So that you had the different times. And now with the ranches divided, everybody just goes out there and diverts.D: The ditch boss doesn't enforce the rotation?M: There's no way they can do it. There's so many laterals going off there that you couldn't do. That means you have to have so much head to provide the water for everybody on the ditch at the same time. D: Whereas if you had an effective scheduling system, you could take a third of the head.

M: The first half would know that they irrigated these days, and the second half would know their days.D: It's gotta go all the way to the end because everybody's irrigating.M: Maybe that would be a way we could help the ditch companies by having some sort of a class to teach people how to irrigate responsibly. For native grass, it doesn't necessarily need to be watered every week. Either put 8" of water on it every 3 weeks. There's ways to help people and I think that may be one way we can help them.D: The Nature Conservancy is involved...you probably know about that...that Kim Schonek (DVG note: Nature Conservancy researcher and ditch project manager) is looking for ways she can increase or improve the efficiencies...M: The Hickey Ditch volunteered to be one of the first ones to do that.D: That's great. That demonstration is really going to be something you can use with everybody else all the way down the river...Cottonwood, Eureka, VerdeM: The down side of that is that we had a while back Jim Allen from the Soil Conservation Service did a study in '79 or '80, looking at different ways to put in diversions that were more permanent and there's a big...like a concrete structure where some sort of French drains or whatever and that sounded like a good idea. But once you put in that permanent structure, if you have to repair, you have to get a 404 and this and that and the other. As historic irrigation structures in the river, if it blows out, you fix it. No permitting required, whatever it takes to fix it. So that's a down side to discourage people from taking that permanent choice because it makes it so you'd have to take a 6 month process to get a permit to fix your irrigation. It's a matter of the Corps of Engineers having to update their regulations and expedite them so it didn't take 6-9 months to get anything done. Some ditch companies are private and haven't taken any FEMA funds for any of the flood damages because they don't want to have that federal nexus involved with their management process, which I don't really blame them. You can get shut down.D: Good comments. Q 8: Who do you think might be interested in using the findings of this Verde River Economic Development Study, including the results of interviews such as this one?M: I really don't know. D: Do you have any other ideas about what can be done to make the Verde River a focal point for regional economic development? Have you ever had an idea that you thought....I'd be doing this with the Verde River?M: Kind of, I thought it would be neat if we could make the Verde River a destination point for people to just look "Oh there's a river there" but to actually want to come and look at the Verde and see what a free-flowing river in AZ looks like because there's not a whole lot of them. Even though there are diversions on it, it is still considered a free-flowing river above that horseshoe.D: Like the Birding and Nature Festival does. Do you think there are opportunities for other eco-tourism type things.M: I don't know how you do it. The Sedona Adventures does that with their tours. It would be nice to get more people on the river in a way that was not gonna use it to death.D: Where would they do it? They'd have to do it pretty much hereM: Yea, like we have the paddle trail that goes from Dead Horse down to 89A and if would could come up with river access points at each highway crossing so that people could put in and take out fairly easily, we might get more tourism that way.D: All private property owners at the new crossing thoughM: At Mingus? Actually, no. The bridge is across 6 acres of greenway and I believe the county had to buy another 30 acres right around there. They bought another 10 or 20, the field on the south side of the road where the drainage basin is and all the way to the Cottonwood ditch is county. So there's a place to put a little pocket park.

D: It's out of the floodway?M: It's out of the floodway. Then the same thing at 89A. We have 3 acres down there that we could put a little river access point on. I don't know how that would work, if you've seen our map, it shows private property with warnings, but if we could do that people wouldn't have to walk up their property. I like to see a foot trail along the river and I actually talked to a large property owner who shall remain nameless that if we were to go in and build him a fence, 20-30 feet back from the edge of the bank, he would consider letting us have an easement across there for our trail to go through there and keep his cattle safe and have a way for the people to walk through.D: So it's a large front yard with cattle on the water in Cottonwood? (laugh)M: So there's ways that we can do this. Again it's that whole public-private partnership and try to get people toD: Has anybody actually gone since Bruce Babbitt and Dan Campbell were out here in the greenway years ago, well you were here, has anybody gone and talked to them seriously about getting a trail easement through a lot of that property other than this man.M: I've talked to a lot of people along the river about that. That's how we ended up with the Valley Concrete piece. I had one of the Heath's wives was our assistant Girl Scout leader. I mentioned that we were interested in doing something and the next thing I knew, we went ahead and purchased it. That was back in the salad days when we had some money to buy stuff.D: So getting a piece of the trail easement that went all the way down like from Tuzigoot to 89A. You already own a considerable amount of that and private property is from here downM: There's one property owner to keep us from building the trail from Tuzigoot Bridge to the Dead Horse bridge and back to the Tuzigoot Bridge.D: Gilers?M: No. Selna-Mongini right there at the Bridgeport bridge.D: Is it because they don't want to limit theM: No we haven't asked them. That's the one piece of private property that's keeping us from making a loop trail from the Tuzigoot bridge to the Dead Horse bridge and back. That's probably property...there's a way we can do it all the way to that property and back to the Tuzigoot bridge. This side is done, already there.D: I'm going to do one of these interviews with Ray. I have a long good relationship with Ray. I can feel him out.M: I would love to see that railroad bed up there that goes by your house. I'd love to see that rails to trails, have the Dorothy Benatz trail continue so that it weaves up through there. I believe UVX owns it. D: They're easy to work with.M: I would love to see that happen. A rails to trails grant. To me, the idea would be to follow that whole rail bed all the way over to Clemenseau. That will never happen because of all the private property in between now.D: They still own an easement on a lot of it. A lot of it is their property.M: It would be so neat to see something like that. Even a biking trail or hiking. In the fall, winter, and spring, it would be easy to do that trail and just enjoy it. Summertime, not so much because it's miserable hot.Followup Q: Think of anybody else we should interview? Doesn't have to be people as knowledgeable as you are...just even people that have never thought about it.M: Andy?D: He's on our list.M: I know most people don't think of him as being a person who loves the river but I know he does. D: I think it's easy to paint him that way, too. My experience has always been is that he's a reasonable guy, that he's very protective of his thing, and that's he's very

M: Opinionated. Hey, so am I! I get where his head is. D: If I had his job and I'd been doing it that long, I would probably be in the same place.M: I would, too.D: I've always told him that, too. He and I can come to loggerheads over issues but it's honest.M: I was out there one day when the river was flooding and standing right there and talking to him and he was telling a state parks guy that the river was flooding like that because they won't cut down any of the trees out there. I just looked at him and said, "what part of natural area don't you get?" It's one of those things where we're going to agree to disagree on that one.D: Who besides Andy? M: Chip Norton? Kathy Davis? D: Any new people around that you've been aware of that are interested in the river.M: Not that I can think of. For the last year, I've been kind of out of the loop on things because of all that's going on, I've been around here. Haven't been on our property in Camp Verde now for a couple of months.Followup Q: Is there anything that concerns you about the study we're doing...anything that we need to be careful about?M: Not from what I read about it. Anybody can take anything and use it to their advantage if they want to.Followup Q: 2 more questions and they're things that were brought up by other things as your answered. One is: you were talking about spending $80M or something like that in the Salt River drainage down in Maricopa County and that if we had $80M up here we could really do some good, so where would you put that $80M? They would say, "Hey, Max, I'm writing you a check for $80M but it has to benefit the river."M: Gosh, I guess the biggest part I would probably do is to be able to go out and do the invasive removal on a serious basis not just with volunteers...not that volunteers aren't serious. If they go out once a month, in the 2-3 months that it's comfortable to go working, then we really don't get anywhere. Like I was telling Fred Phillips and Associates the other day, that if we had a 6 or 7 person crew that would go out there an work 52 weeks a year on that, we could probably kick its butt. They'd be serious about going out there and getting paid to cut the stuff and move it and treat it. Then maintaining it would be a lot easier afterwards.D: What are you going to do with the other $79M?M: I'd buy a big chipper. So we didn't have to burn this stuff. My biggest issue with invasive removal is that once you get it cut then you have to do something with the biomass. The only way we can get rid of it right now is to burn it. If we had a chipper, we could chip it and then it could go back into mulch or trail tread or just let it decompose where it sits. I know that's not the rest of it, but there's a lot that can be done.D: That would be an expensive chipper. (laugh)M: A big one. I don't know, I've never even thought about it. There's some people that want to sell property right now that would be great to pick to make a connection for wildlife corridors, for retiring a bit of the irrigation on some property that's not producing really well. I look at what's happened right now down in Camp Verde with the Rocking River Ranch, the trust ??? parcel the Forest Service has and now with the Shield ranch that the Nature Conservancy has. You've got an 800 acres wide area of river corridor that's now opened up for wildlife to traipse back and forth because there's not going to be a whole lot of development down there.D: So land acquisition or easement acquisition.M: Easement acquisition, development of some trails; Trails aren't cheap. You have to build them if you want to build it, people to help maintain the trails. We've got this neat trail system outside the park that goes up onto the Coconino hill, the Thumper, Raptor, all that loop, it's in dire need of maintenance

and volunteers don't want to maintain trails. They maybe will build trails. So maybe you could hire people to go up and work on the trails and maintain the resources you've got. It would be great to have an inventory of the plants and animals along this reach of the river. I'd like to see something like this done for monitoring the greenways. I'd like to see it on a touchscreen thing where if you have a plant you want to see, touch the screen for yellow plants he yellow plants come up and you keep going (DVG note: describing an identification key). People can figure that will all these applications. And all these vital to know things. One of our volunteers had a iPad I think, but she was going through and finding the birds, and she had a bird book on her iPad.D: My phone has all of that. In fact, I did all of the sounds for the major applications this phone and the iPad. M: This is my phone, Doug. D: I know. That was my phone until I got this one.M: This is all I want. I can take a picture if I want and that's it. I don't need all those other things. But yeah, I'd like to see something like that. I'd like to see a lot more easily obtainable educational stuff.D: Educational materials?M: Yeah, you know, so we can take the dog and pony show to the schools and get them out there. Part of that money I would use to help fund grants for the schools to come into the park, to the river.D: Something along the lines of Project Wet, with a habitat or natural bent instead water.M: It just kills me that we have to charge the schools. And I understand where we are financially, as far as the park system, but I would love to have a deal where we could give scholarships to school teachers for something as simple as just writing a little something "this is why we want to come to the river" thing and then we could do programming again for them. I miss doing the programming. I loved taking the kids out and doing nature walks because you see the whole world through a different perspective when it's the kids. We kind of get jaded and don't notice things. The funniest one I had was a bunch of kindergarteners out there when the kissing bugs were mating. They wanted to know why the bugs were on top of each other. I said to ask your teacher. That's not my department.D: We're done with all the regular questions, but you wanted me to return to anonymity at the end of this. Now that you've answered all these questions, what do you think about anonymity, quoting Max Castillo.M: I don't think I offended anybody too badly.D: I don't think so either. You did say though that you'd like to approve anything that we wrote so that could wrap into this. So you'll know it before, by saying yes or no.M: Cause I did mention the fact that there was an issue with over the hill and I don't want to get sideways with anybody over there like Andy Tobin or Steve Pierce.

Doug Von Gausig interview with Phil Moyer, Coldwell-Banker Real Estate, Cottonwood, 1/25/11, 3:05 pm..."doesn't matter" if anonymous; no approval necessary for use of interview

Q 1: What do you think are the most significant factors influencing the health of the Verde River system?D: Postitive or negative.

P: I would say the source of the water. If you don't have the water, you don't have the Verde River. Ensuring the source of the water. However you would do that. If the water's gone, there's no Verde River. It's worthless to everybody then, except for maybe the trees would still be there.

D: So do you think there are things we need to know about the source of the water?

P: I think that if you're trying to protect the concept that there's a Verde River, you try to protect the water that feeds it. Right? So I think that would be involved with the legal aspects of other people pumping upstream or new subdivisions that want to be developed that might draw down the water table. Or just knowing about, or having somebody involved with knowing what's going on there with those waters at the headwaters of the Verde River. I think that's important.

Q2: Do you feel there are things about the Verde River that we need to understand better? If so, what are they?P: I don't know. I'm sure there is. It's kind of a loaded question.

D: Some people have really specific things they wish they knew this or they wish we knew this relationship or whatever. It is a pretty broad question.

Q 3: To your knowledge what, if any, economic development activities have recently been, or are currently being, conducted that directly relate to the Verde River? Who is involved in these activities? P: I would have to say from my point of view, the real estate people that sell riverfront property. As far as the economic activity that has significant value. If you've got riverfront, you've got a lot more value than if you don't. There are people that specialize in riverfront property that seem to do more of that than some of them do. I think everybody wants to. Everybody likes to sell a little paradise, a little green paradise, where you can have shade in the desert, with water flowing by, and otters, and you can go fishing, or your kid can collect tadpoles. You know that's pretty aesthetic and I don't know how it gets much better in the desert. So water is, besides the red rocks of Sedona, creek and riverfront properties are the next most highest valued land, if there was a market.

D: Is the market in that property better now than comparatively to other properties?

P: I don't know what other properties you are talking about? Foreclosures? Outland properties? From my own point of view, is yeah. There's some people that can afford to pay still a pretty fair value. I sold 3 acres on the creek on S. Aspaas in March. My only land sale...went for $325K cash. It was an arid lot there on the bluff there just south of the Cornville Bridge on S. Aspaas and it sold for $225K, $75K an acre. That was like my first land sale in over 2 years. So it made me fill like the market was starting to happen and it was on a creekfront property. So it was arid, it wasn't tree-filled, it was a bluff that overlooked the water and the bridge, 360 degree view, but it was a pretty fair price at $75K an acre.

D: Similar to my house, across from Tuzigoot on the bluff.

P: And the only other sale I made was a ranch in Page Springs, an estate sale, the guy died, and it was appraised by Straub. I'm probably not supposed to give these numbers, but it was appraised at $1M and it sold for $650K. That was still a fair value on Page Springs Rd. with about 6 acres on the creek, irrigation, a house and a barn. Older, but nice. And I have another sale, the same guy, had bought the property next door that also is on Oak Creek and it's in escrow at this point, pending a bank wanting to loan ona creek property. Too much land value.

D: Really?

P: It's just one of the many reasons they actually like appraisers to give them lots of problems because it gives them more outs and if it's not a cookie cutter piece across the board, exactly like everything else. If you're different in any way, then you're in trouble with the bank in making a bank loan right now.

D: Half acre on a paved street with a house with a red tile roof.

P: Right. There's some comps. And then another house that sold last yearl, one of our comps is one that is 4 acres off Eden Lane was a dry lot on Oak Creek, 4 acres, older house had been remodeled one time, went for $630K. That's pretty amazing that people were stubborn and weren't gonna take less. It had been on the market for 5 years. And they finally sold it for $630K. There's even Bruno??? old house down on Eden Lane, poor planning. Anyway, so that was a recent sale this summer. Then another sale was on Sheep's Head Crossing, Mark Scanlon his house, you know which one that used to be Cavender's old house. Sheep's Head Crossing on the river? 10 acres, irrigated, on Oak Creek, it was an older house, it was a 1980 house, but was big, 4,000 square feet. It was architecturally decent. It needed some upkeep and a guest house on 10 acres. And he sold it, it didn't go through MLS, but it sold. It went for $1,495,000. So there's still value in creek properties or you're not seeing in other properties that are selling. I guess the economic value of the river is its connection to the real estate. Where it runs through the forest service, unless somebody has a canoe business and have a permit or whatever it takes to rent canoes, there's really no other value except for the beaver and the otter and the fish and the birds. The way I see it, except it is a benefit out here to be able to go have 80% of the land forest service where you can just tell people they can go in any direction and play on any creek they want that's on forest service. That's pretty nice. It's a big plus for tourism. People know that they can come up here and just take off and go explore an old ruin. There's many places. Mormon's Crossing. There's all kinds of public places to get to the river which is the rivers and Beaver Creek or whatever. That's a big plus. It's the Verde Valley...it's the Green Valley. People aren't coming here because it's the Desert Valley.

D: I think you described it really well at the very beginning of the interview. You said that this is where you want to live on the creek because your kids can fish, you've got the trees, it's a very different place. It's Eden.

P: That makes a more moderate temperature. It's cooler.

D: That's something that we're going to be studying possibly in a second phase, is what are called ecosystem services. And the fact is, it is cooler down there because of the shade, because of all the evaporation, because of all that.

P: It has always tended to be cooler, especially at night, in the mornings.

D: You take that 10 degrees and try to cool another house by 10 degrees, you come up with a direct cost. You know, a direct value. Cool.

Q 4: What potential economic development opportunities exist which are associated with the Verde River system in the Verde Valley? D: That are being done now? Anything?

P: You know my old motive of locations, locations meant for films, that's kind of died off. With the permitting system working with the entities...Forest Service and such...to get permits to film there is not

that easy. That could be an economic source, if it was easier to get to those places that are out, secluded, for a Western or whatever. Westerns might be coming back. Who knows, maybe they'll be doing a lot of Westerns. I just read about the guys doing about the robbers. So maybe there's some economic development there with working with the state if you had some predesignated locations and certain things allowed, I don't know. There would people who would want to film on the river. Just an out there idea.

D: That's interesting. I remember when they did...what was the once that Jean Claude Van Damme came down and did and they build all that...

P: That was the futuristic...I can't remember now.

D: He was kind of the semi-robot?

P: I forgot about that. That's not even on my list, I don't think. Yea, I remember that.

D: Right next to the Perkins' place. On the other side of Tapco.

P: I also think a great spot to film would be the City park (DVG note: Riverfront Park) because you've got natural trails through there. There's never anybody there. The problem with that is dealing with the state. They don't want to pre-empt a commercial operation for the publics. In other words, they don't want to take away from the public if they close it for a day, in other words. They wouldn't want to do that. Because that's the public out and that's what all they're there for. They're not there to serve commercial interest, per se.

D: Maybe they can be talked into it.

P: Maybe if there's a plan. Always you can do things if there's a plan. You've got to think it through. Have a frame of reference of what everybody's needs are and what's available. Probably work it out. I don't know there's always this...the ideas of a canoe trip and some people trying to get businesses to play on the water. Because, you know, the land for the most part, the designated waterways are public access so they can put boats and stuff down there. But then again, the problem with that might be that if they aren't on Forest Service land where they stop, sometimes they might be on people's private property where they don't realize, you know, they might stop to camp and they're in somebody's front yard, but the house is way back there because the flood plain. Maybe you could get for the environmental part of the rivers that have access areas. You could have designated...maybe Walmart could put out some little heads, some little composting bathrooms or stops or little camp areas that are designated for people so that when they are going down there and they want to know then they know. There's a sign "Yea we can camp here guys. There's the trash can. A little Forest Service hut with a porta-potty in there. With the rules and we'll clean it up when we're gone, and we'll hit the canoe the next day and go on down to the Salt River or something, I don't know.

D: So there are recreational things that we could be doing that recreational facilities that aren't being done right now.

P: Maybe. I know there's the one down off Salt Mine that the Forest Service has. The Forest Service has them here and there.

D: There's the Verde River greenway that the state parks owns.

P: I think it's like anything...when you want to create a new business which is what you're talking about. How to create a new business, you know. You've got to show people how they can make money with it. So there has to be a demand for people who want to be on the water. You have to create the demand. It's not really available that much now. I know I notice a few little river running guys around town and people are looking for things, for businesses to do and stuff. When I'm on the river, I see occasionally some rental kayaks or people have their own kayaks occasionally going down there but it's an untapped source. You know nobody's really come up with the concept to say how do we get people on the river to enjoy it more. And somebody can make some money that does that. Somebody's going to have to invest money to buy the boats and have insurance and have a plan and follow the people and take them back to their cars. You could develop some kind of an industry there. You know, it's such a beautiful spot. Maybe you could do it on Oak Creek. I don't think Beaver Creek is big enough, but Oak Creek or the Verde.

D: So it sounds like one of the things that you started talking about was the fact that people may not...it may not be clear enough to people that are on kayaks or boats where they can pull out legally and safely and all that.

P: And I don't know if there's much marketing or advertising for those things to do. Now maybe you can find them if you really search it out in Sedona. But most of the Verde River's over here, not in the Sedona area. So maybe there's some local people that would want to do it. I don't know how much people will pay, but I think that if it was presented properly with a high quality outfit and had a guide and naturalist. I have a friend that gives tours of the Indian ruins. Maybe somebody could give tours of the Verde River by canoe or kayak or a little paddle boat even. You can get a paddle boat going down there for a mile would be kind of fun, maybe. Shade cover for grandma and some tuna sandwiches.

D: Do you think it would be good for the river to have more of that kind of activity going on?

P: Now when you talk about the river, are you talking about the water or the people who live on the river like the ducks, geese...

D: I'm talking about whatever you perceive the river to be.

P: I think the river also belongs to the creatures personally. So I think I would want to see it regulated some how. Maybe there's permit you can get to put 500 people a year on the river and market it the best way you can. Get as much money as you can but here's the rules and how it has to work out. I don't think it should be unlimited access, no. Now maybe there could be sections, you know, it's a long river. I don't know how many people are gonna want to be out there for days, you know. So maybe there are sections that could have more traffic than others. Maybe along from say Tuzigoot through the Cottonwood area up to the bridge here in Bridgeport. Maybe that's an area because there's already lots of people there. The animals are used to the people. It won't be that much, but if you get down somewhere else where there's eagles or out in the boonies, maybe there's some wildlife you might damage. Plus you could probably get more people to police it if the owners, the landowners, were aware that this was going on and notify that this is what we're doing so when you see people, you try to be courteous so that they don't accidentally fall off their boats on your land and don't run them off cause this is what we're tying to do here...blah, blah, blah. There would be more people to help police that 2-3 mile section because there would be people that own the properties there that would all want

to know what the rules are. What are the people supposed to be doing that are coming through here. What are the laws so there's not a lot of problems developed.

Q 5: In your opinion, what information and facts are there that could be used to promote and advance the connection between the Verde River and potential sustainable economic development in the Verde Valley? D: Are there things that people don't know that people need to know to make that connection? (repeated questions at Phil's request)

P: I don't know of any studies that are that people feel good that they're in nature, that they can get healed, that they're in nature and are not all stressed out. I don't know what kind of studies you want.

D: Maybe we're not talking about studies. Maybe we're, from your standpoint, talking about a new client. You're on top and a new client walks in the door. You probably don't do that any more. And you feel you educate them about the Verde River or

P: I would tell that this was a prehistoric lake, full of dinosaurs, millions of years ago, and that there's ancient water sources that are underneath the ground here. And some of them surface waters like the creeks and streams, and some of them are from artesian sources that we don't know exactly where they come from because they're under some kind of volcanic pressure system. And then there's a...if you really want to know the real deep water, there's a gigantic river of water that runs through the Verde Valley that's call the Big Mama and it starts about 1,200 feet down or 1,000 feet down. And the people that have tapped into that river are getting hundreds or thousands of gallons a minute from these wells that have watered golf courses. I tell people that a positive thing about the Verde Valley is that we're not in a water management area. You can come here and buy a dry piece of desert and if you can afford to drill deep enough to hit the water depending wherever you're at, you file a claim on the water. You buy a thousand acres and you want to put it in irrigation and grow cotton, you can do it. You can file a claim on that water today. If you put the money into developing the use of it, you can file a valid claim for irrigation water from the ground. To me, that's unheard of. That's amazing that people can come here and do that. So that's a selling point that I use. I don't remember what the questions was now.

D: repeat questions

P: Yeah, I talk about those sources of the water. That we are under an adjudication and we don't know exactly who owns all of that water yet. It's been going on for 20 plus years and could go on longer, but it's a legal process in the state, for the whole state, to alott who really owns the water. There's nothing guaranteed here. You know it's not guaranteed for any of us. So far it's been good. You can still drill wells and that's a plus for people. I don't know if the availability of water, the legal availability of water, you see is something absolutely if you didn't know about it.

Q 6 Who are important potential supporters in advancing the connection between a healthy Verde River and sustainable economic development?P: I would think the land owners that own the property adjacent to the river. They're the ones who have to most invested, or are at risk by being there, for whatever's developed or done with it. However, that happens. If 1000 people like the Grand Canyon start flowing down on rafts and they all start having wild beer parties and it's in the newspaper, it would be pretty hard for me to start selling that property in that 3 mile section. There's a limit to everything. Those landowners are the most invested in what

happens to it commercially or not. I think would really want to work with those landowners. Make them feel like what you're doing is going to increase their land values and not make them worse.

D: What's the current thinking? It used to be: 1. What is my property going to appreciate and such...still the mindset, do you think? Has that changed any?

P: No, it's a mindset but I don't think people are not looking at that. I think people are looking at property as, like the one that just bought the 3 acres from Washington, he might retire here in 5 years. He thought it was a good price now. It had been dropped down a couple times. It was still high for what I thought was considering that land since he bought it has probably gone down another 25%. But that's what he wanted to do and he thought it was a good value. Question?

D: This is about people who would be supporters of advancing the river and the sustainable economic value. The questions I asked was whether the people's mindset was still I'm going to buy a piece of property, I'm concerned about its appreciation.

P: I don't think it's their first concern. I think they want to move, want to be here. Part of what stimulates our market here and it's been that way in the past in hard times...this is the hardest time we've ever seen...most people get out of the city and they want to come here, and they want to have...they're not survivalists...but they're keeping in their mind that if everything goes to hell down here in Scottsdale, we've got a place for our 3 families up there on Oak Creek that if all you do is set yourself up a farm. We can grow food there, it's got a walk-in cellar. It's got water. So let's just buy that place cause we've got the money and then go up on the weekends and have some fun. Interesting. So I think that the hard times gets more people motivated to get out of the city and maybe the snow stuff that's happened in the east. Maybe when things thaw out a little bit. We're going to seeing a lot of easterners over here thinking "man, this dry desert is pretty nice."

Q 7: What or who do you see as current or potential barriers to advancing sustainable economic development in connection with a healthy river( for example, laws and regulations, property rights, institutional like ditch companies, water companies, historic uses, etc.), changing cultural values? (If response is that “there are too many,” ask for top 3-5…interviewer’s discretion)P: It seems like the only thing we've talked about is getting people on a boat on the river as an economic way to make money, right? I haven't heard of anything else. You could have a fishing guide. Somebody that can take people out and catch trout. I've seen or heard of 2 of them around.

D: You've got your agriculture.

P: That's really the land, not the river.

D: Where does the water come from? What water's the agriculture? I thought that they had water somewhere.

P: Out of a spring, I don't know.

D: But the ditches deliver that water to most of the agriculture of the Verde River. That's Verde River water, right?

P: No it's the landowners' water. It's not the river's water. It's the landowners' water. It's those guys water who 100 years ago that dug the ditches. They took that water and claimed it and then the subsequent owners today still own that claim on that water.

D: So ???? the Verde River though. If the Verde River dried up

P: They're not going to have any water either. I mean maybe they'll get all of it and the birds won't get any. I don't know how that's going to work. When it comes down to just a ditch.

D: Do you believe that there's a potential for the river drying up?

P: Yep. I don't see a lot of new development. Sell the existing places. And it's the headwaters up there in the water management area. Maybe there's not going to be that many new wells. So maybe that's a good thing that a lot of people have drilled wells that they've sold to the city. So the city can get the water and sell it to the people. Maybe there won't be that many more claims on the water that will help sustain the flow. But the more people that tap into it, there's going to be less, right. The more people that have a sprinkler out there, another run, it's going to be gone and won't physically come back. Who knows how much is down there, who knows how big Big Mama is. It may mean that there's enough water there that's going to last us 1000 years. I don't know what those studies, hydrology studies have shown. I know that there's the old water witch guy, Huggins, and his life time studies are all in charts

D: He's in Flagstaff isn't he?

P: Yeah. He used to have all those charts that showed the magnitude of that flow through the whole Verde Valley and farther from Flagstaff through Prescott. Maybe there's some information there that would be beneficial. I guess the most thing you'd want to know is that we're going to have water.

D: And how can be get more water in the Verde River?

P: I don't know.

D: Maybe that's something to look into ????

P: Yeah, maybe Walmart could buy some of the water. One bottle at a time, just dump it in.

D: You actually answered a question, early on, you said that you really didn't have any answer to...do you feel there are things about the Verde River that we need to understand better. What you just said was that we need to understand our ground, our aquifer system better. So the geo-hydrology needs to be understood better.

P: And maybe to protect the wildlife if it gets so low that somebody will drill a 25" wall down into Big Mama at 1200 feet and put in 3000 gallons per minute into the river and solar counts for some money. It it's artesian that hits down on Big Mama, so much pressure, it's artesian. So you just open up the gates and let it flow. I don't know if all the land's going to fall in around it.

Q 8: Who do you think might be interested in using the findings of this Verde River Economic Development Study, including the results of interviews such as this one?

P: The public, public in general. The specific public that it might affect. The people who are along the river.

D: The rest of these are not highly structured questions but they are kind of things that came up during our interview so far that I want to learn a little bit more about and just for the background of our study. How long have you lived in the Verde Valley?

P: Since '79, February of '79.

D: Just a couple of years after I got here. How would you describe your interactions with the Verde River? You sell real estate that is on the Verde River.

P: Well, not so much now, but raising my kids and stuff, we used to go down to Mormon's Crossing and take the floats and picnic lunch and float around in the summer. We utilized it that way many times. On Waddup’s Ranch down there, many times we had weddings, parties and all kinds of stuff down there. But now I just occasionally go fishing for some trout. I mostly use it as a selling point for why people should live in the Verde Valley. It's what makes the Verde Valley the Verde Valley.

D: Interviewees that I talk to kind of make pretty much that same statement, that it's really a difficult one to get your hands around. That's kind of what we're trying get, is really what you mean by that...that's what makes the Verde Valley, the Verde Valley? You start off by saying you can be under a shade tree, you can fish, you can swim in the river...

P: Do don't really have to say anything when you sell them, you just take them there. That's how easy it is. You take them to the confluence out there , and an eagle flies over and a fish jumps down there. And I say now the Indians where down there with the little spears, you know, and they go...and they get flush and their heart starts pumping, and they go, "Wow this is pretty amazing." And then I say, you know what the other thing that is nice around here is that it's only 20% that's private. 80%, just like most of Arizona, 80%, all these mountains where you don't see any houses. That's government land, that's public. Get on your bicycle, your ATV, treat the land good and you can go out there and have some fun. It think it's a...the water sells itself really. You don't have to say a whole lot, you know it's there, you just visualize it. I mean you can see it coming the down the mountain and all of Verde Valley is green, is greener than others. Even this time of the year when it's winter, people like it. I'm writing on a deal today $1M plus house that's on the river. The people walked all the way down till they say it. It was about 1/4 mile. A little old lady in her 80s, family, and they all walked down there cause they had to see if the river was really there. It's a gut reaction. To own something that's wild, and to own something that most people don't have.

D: Not a tract house sitting anywhere. So the next question I want to ask you is a questions that came up in one of my other interviews where somebody said, "Did you hear that they got $80M to spend on the Salt River down in Maricopa County to do improvements to the river bed. Just think what we could do up here if we had a big chunk of money, for the Verde River." So let's say that they come in write you a check for $5M, all I want you to do with this check is improve the health of the Verde River, somehow. What would you do?

P: $5M is not very much. (laugh) And what's the goal in giving this chunk....

D: The goal is just to make the Verde River sustain itself, make it healthy for a long period. What can you do for it?

P: Again, I would somehow hire attorneys that could guarantee that there's always going to be water in it. I would spend that $10M on attorneys to set up the legal ins and outs to make sure that the Verde Valley's claim on the water is going to continue on for a hundred years or more. And maybe I would want to spend...maybe that would take $1M and I might work up some kind of, help the certain organizations that are willing to take it on to clean up the river. And that might be expeditions to go along a clean up some trash. I don't know what kind of econological things can be done to help it. Throw oxygen tabs out every hundred feet out. I don't know what kind of deals could be done by those group of people, but I would spend $1M to get people to just clean up the area, get rid of the plastic, fishing lines. There's a certain plot of places where you're going to have a lot of that. I don't think it's that dirty myself. I don't know if it would take that much money, but it could help out a whole lot of organizations. I could make a lot of awareness about something going on to better the river. It might be promotional, a pretty good $1M spent.

D: You first comment I found interesting, you take $9M or $xM and hire lawyers that would do whatever it took to assure that the water would remain in the Verde River. That's interesting, and you could easily spend $9M doing that. You can spend $100M doing that.

P: Organizations like the Verde River Association and all that kind of stuff, irrigation associations. They're all spending money to try to protect it. And they could use some reinforcements. And all of the money is just all donated to your dues and donations to that, they don't really have a source of income.

D: Who else do you think I should be interviewing?

P: I would interview some wildlife scenic photographers, or some forest service people that are in the know about the wildlife, and ask them what do they think these animals and birds need along the Verde River, especially if we get some canoers out there. What we need to be concerned about with the wildlife and the birds and the fish. Ask some of those experts, those questions.

D: My last interview was with Tom Bagley, the Game and Fish guy here for 19 years. He had a lot of good ideas about what was needed from a different perspective.

Off topic dialogue follows here.

Doug interviewing John Parsons, John's house in Rimrock, Feb. 22, 2011, does not have to be anonymous, doesn't not to approve print

Q 1: What do you think are the most significant factors influencing the health of the Verde River system?People, number one. We are the ultimate invasive species. If people value the river, the river will survive. If people do not reach consensus about their use and the value of the river, the river's survival is questionable. The biggest factor is public consensus that the river has a significant amount of value to bridge differences and reach common ground to sustain the resources of the river collectively into the future. As we know, it's not just surface water. It's everything that that water supports. People will be

incentivized to make decisions to save the river. That's the way the equation has always been from day 1 when we became years ago. it's clear that the fundamental and primary activity is about engaging the stakeholders and their knowledge and respect and esteem and willingness to make an effort to preserve the river. Obviously there's a wide range of specific tactical tools and little strategies to do that. But without the public will behind the collective use of those resources, nothing's going to happen. You can have the world’s finest tool kit to save the river sitting there but if nobody's going to pick a tool out of the kit and use it. It's not going to do any good. In all human efforts to make a lasting impact on a natural resource, there's a line or point in the sand where people come to and they agree to cross that line together to have a tangible impact on that resource. If they back away from their responsibilities and the challenge when they reach that line, then it's no good. It's the translation of the value of the river into action that will enable the various tools to be used to address the wide range of specific issues, such as the issue you just mentioned (public engagement). That's always been that way and it's always going to be that way. The biggest problem here is constant immigration of people who have to be educated from scratch. It just seems like you finish getting your base population aware of what's going on and then suddenly you're outnumbered by a whole new tsunami of newcomers who know nothing about the river and are constantly trying to compare it to a Midwestern river or some other river which is an inappropriate basis for understanding this river. In all the years we used to be involved, we clearly knew that that was our biggest challenge. It wasn't about somebody trying to go out and lead the charge or take a flag or nothing, one person can only do so much. When we started this whole effort years ago, there was not one single organization in existence on behalf of the Verde River. Now look at the number of them. It's hard to keep track of how many groups want to be involved and want to step forward and do something. Sometimes they seem to be almost working at cross purposes. That's a big challenge...to keep people in synch with one another and to maximize their individual and organizational efficiencies and reach a collective effectiveness that will have the desired effect for each organization's individual goals and objectives on behalf of this resource. That's a very simplistic assessment. It's an extremely challenging enterprise. Public education about this river is a tough nut to crack, very tough. The fragmented media here in the Verde Valley has a lot to do with it. The inability of having a common communications platform for the public makes it even more difficult. The sheer amount of the diversity of the influx of population growth is incredibly challenging. How in the world to keep making a difference with that paradigm is incredibly challenging period.

Q2: Do you feel there are things about the Verde River that we need to understand better? If so, what are they?So back in the 80s when we were first trying to help people change their lingo from dirty Verde to something better, there were no studies going on and I think Roy Johnson's bird study was one of the only studies around. It was something we always tried to latch on to. There were no other studies. Now I would imagine that it would be difficult to actually list the number of studies that have been done on this river in the past 20 years. It's significant and it would make a lengthy bibliography. Really it all comes back to how to translate what you know about the river into terms that people can understand from their own perspectives. You can study this river forever but if your studies are strictly for the cognoscente or academic or professional peers and if they're not put into terms that are usable by the public, frankly they don't do a lot of good. Because the people who are involved in those studies are not action makers or action takers. They simply are trained to do science on behalf of whatever they do. Rare is one of those investigators who are also an action individual. There can be all manners of studies. I'm sure that there is much more depth of knowledge that would be fun to have, but at what point do you take that knowledge and move forward with it. Every time in the past when somebody would say that this is the study that we need, we have to have this study before we can do anything, and that will

solve all of our problems. Well, that study would get done and it would go on to the shelf just like all the studies before and people continue to use that paradigm. Then say, we need another study or another committee. How many studies or committees can you have before people say, "Look, here is the trend of the degradation of this resource. Here are the possibilities to stem that trend, and when are we going to start forming that agree that further study is not a panacea. It's entertaining and it's good to do. It keeps people busy and it creates jobs for the scientific community. We keep studying and studying and eventually we say we've got to make this information available to the public. What you're doing here, by attempting to assess this economic galaxy, that's something that hasn't been done and there was a need for that 30 years ago. The need has only become greater over the past 3 decades.

Q 3: To your knowledge what, if any, economic development activities have recently been, or are currently being, conducted that directly relate to the Verde River? Who is involved in these activities? If you want to look with a microscope and say okay, specifically now, standing in that river, or touching its water, or standing on the stream bank, or whatever. That's the same as saying, Okay, let's go into the forest and put our nose right to this tree here. Say, Gee that's a nice tree. But it's really important to step back from that tree and see the forest through this river here. The bulk of its economic impact is an indirect impact. You might be able to say, there's a little water-to-wine tour that starts at Black Canyon and goes to Alcantara. That's a really cool little economic activity. There's people who buy fishing license and catch the stock, buy tackle. There's birdwatchers and the hikers, some things like that. They must be spending money somehow. But that's missing the larger perspective of the role of this river in its cultural and natural ecosystem, if you will and how it was for all practical purposed one of the economic kingpins of the prehistoric cultures and how the people were initially drawn to the water when some settlers from Prescott first peered over the head of Mingus and saw that beautiful, lush riparian area and they couldn’t resist going down in there and trying to make a living, even before the military could protect them. That was clearly being drawn to the economic value of the river because they weren't here to have fun. They had to fight for their lives to defend their takings of the native lands and whatever. And then look at the other people who followed in their footsteps for generations after that to grow stuff with the irrigation water of the river to sell to the miners. They grew animal protein and vegetable protein to make a living off it over in Jerome and up in Flagstaff. That's how it was clearly using this ecosystem for an economic livelihood. Back in the 80s, I used to do slideshows on the river and I'd go around to anybody that would want me to give the show and I would just give the show over and over and over to just try to show people what they have here. A lot of them really didn't know what it was. They only see a glimpse of the river when they cross it on a paved highway bridge. They don't even today know what's down there. It's terra incognito to probably 99.2% of the population. One woman came up to me once in Camp Verde, probably about 25 years ago, and she said, "I live here because of that river, but I never go to the river. I love to look at the trees from a distance and the feeling of peace it brings to my heart and the knowledge that it's there is the reason I live here in the Verde Valley." You can't quantify that. You can't attempt to assign a dollar value to how someone's spirit is affected by the fact that this great river exists. It is one of the fundamental reasons why a lot of people are here. They may not even be able to verbalize that. There's a mix of natural resources of which the river is the crown jewel within this cultural and natural ecosystem here that is the magnet. Clearly they're not coming here for good paying jobs. Unless they're in the medical profession or something. This is one of the last best natural crown jewels of the southwest U.S. There really isn't a river system with tributaries that look like Beaver Creek and Oak Creek and West Clear and Sycamore and whatever. Where else would you find that? Look around in Mexico. Look around in Arizona. Look around in southwest Colorado. Look around southern Utah. Forget it. There's nothing like this. We used to go to Mexico a lot. Just driving back and forth from Mexico up here, it dawned on me one day that this was even better than the Salt River down in Mesa to the prehistoric people because they had

such an incredible diversity of elevation and plant species. There's water everywhere. There's not really a whole lot of tributaries draining into the Salt River down in the Salt Valley. Its headwaters are way the heck up in the White Mountains. Sure there's water down there and they were able to develop it, but the actual spectacularness of all these tributaries and the beautiful land beside them is part and parcel what the river is. The river is what it is because of its tributaries. If it had some mysterious source of water that, like the Salt has, that was 300 miles away from where most of it was used, it would be viewed entirely differently. It's the cultural mix of the way people have come here even today, and they live on Oak Creek, they live on Beaver Creek, they live across Clear Creek, or they're in the middle Verde. They often refer to themselves as to where they live by a water-related terminology. (Doug: John probably has thought about these issues more than anyone else in the Verde Valley.) Thinking about the Verde River is thinking about the whole system. (Doug: You see the impact of the Verde River in the same way. The impact is all over the Verde Valley, all over the watershed) It takes people a long time to begin to understand the watershed that they live in. It's just you and I and our associates and peers, we take that for granted. That's not the case of the general public. Most people think that their water comes from their faucets.

Q 4: What potential economic development opportunities exist which are associated with the Verde River system in the Verde Valley? To identify those specifically would be a bit of a challenge and I'll put some more thought into that and try to email you some stuff. It seems when this place is marketed for what amounts to economic development, it's marketed piecemeal. It's marketed by small localities. And it's also marketed in the spirit of bit of competition between communities. Like...Come to Camp Verde-Your Pot of Gold at the End of the Rainbow. Or...Come to Rimrock Where Fabulous Fortunes Await the Entrepreneur. Which would be quite a flight of fancy. You typically see that when these things are discussed rather than a holistic marketing of this integrated resource that we have here that you just described. It's an equation where the sum is greater than its whole parts if you're going to market it like that. Instead of just marketing a part and letting somebody else do the math. There's a magical mystique here that takes a lot of newcomers a while to figure out. They don't even know that a lot of these places even exist till some of them have lived here quite some time. Branding is a cool concept. It's popular these days. Prescott just spent $50K to hire a brand consultant. This sounds like a big game that I'd like to be in someday...a brand consultant. It can't hurt in these days of social media to have a common identifiable brand because the younger people coming up are supposedly dialed in to these types of things now. It's ultimately going to be a young person's game here in the Verde. I don't believe that the economy can sustain itself enough to attract retirees forever because ultimately those retirees, I mean this with no disrespect, are going to become a drain on public resources on this valley and Yavapai County. It's the young, vibrant people, the entrepreneurs, the people with ideas, and the people who can create capacity for ideas that then become a job that is at the foundation of genuine economic development. This area has everything that should be attractive to an aggressive younger persons' se! eking a place to lay down their future and prosper. It's certainly not promoted that way. Its image at large is it's just a bunch of old folks hanging out in the Verde. A bunch of country bumpkins in some little niche along these creeks. So, unless we look to the people who have the energy and the capacity to create genuine, viable economic development, it really doesn't go anywhere. When you look at some of the towns...like Boise, Idaho, for example...they really go out to promote themselves so far as how cool, and hip, and groovy they are to the young people. We've got a ski area here man. We've got this here and you know mountain bike trails and hiking. You can do anything and they have a vibrant downtown there in downtown Boise. They've branded it Bodo, Boise Downtown. All the high tech plants come there and crank out semiconductors because there's workforce there that is young and intelligent and motivated

and productive. Success feeds on success. People want to go to places that are successful not is it viewed as a dead end backwater. This is a cliché that's been around forever, but it's a cliché because it's true. Young people are our future. We should be marketing to them. We should be trying to attract people that are destined for success to come here, to build their businesses and their entrepreneurial efforts here. Flagstaff has had some success with that to a certain degree because it has a university, a mountain, a river running crowd, a climbing crowd, a biking crowd. Everything like that. It has a medium decent downtown. The fact that each community here was in effect founded because of the water resources that flow through the heart of the community has given each of them a different character although they share a common agricultural heritage, they each have their own character. Trending more toward mining upstream, agriculture downstream and up the tributaries. That really presents the biggest challenge of coming up with something that would be appealing for young people because we're sort of reviewed as an old folks home.

Q 5: In your opinion, what information and facts are there that could be used to promote and advance the connection between the Verde River and potential sustainable economic development in the Verde Valley? (Already covered)

Q 6 Who are important potential supporters in advancing the connection between a healthy Verde River and sustainable economic development?It would be all the usual suspects. You know who they all are. The people who are involved in the future of the Verde Valley are pretty easily identifiable because they all have public roles, and show up at meetings, and they're there. The elected officials, their appointed boards and advisors, and the various non-profits and so on. That's the core of who creates action on behalf of progress and sustainability. I don't think there's any unknown, mysterious potential stakeholders out there that we don't all know already. (Doug: segment of population like medical professionals, what's their level of engagement in Verde River) Do you remember Dr. ???, an ER doctor who was an avid kayaker. That was his form of stress release. He was a paddling buddy of David Lash's, I know you know Dave. I tried to engage him in becoming involved on behalf of the river because he was obviously a primary user of the river. He wanted nothing whatsoever to do with it and was offended because I tried to get him involved. It's often your most active and effective people that step forward on behalf of the river are the people that would be least likely to identify as being so in advance of their doing so. There will be people coming out of the cornfield like those ballplayers in that movie once they understand and it goes back to the beginning of our conversation about how important it is to have a robust, ongoing, perpetual public education effort. This isn't something you can do and say, "OK we got them educated now" and stop. It's not going to work that way. Never has, never will. You have to know and you have to provide venues for people to step forward and engage themselves and you have to know that they will. You have to have trust in that paradigm, that they will if there are meaningful ways for them to do so. When we retired in January, 2001, we became career volunteers and we logged over 4,000 official hours with the Forest Service in seven seasons and then I took as paid position as director of an eas! tern Idaho retirement senior volunteer program is a federally funded program. I worked with 175 non-profits and government agencies in a 19,000 square mile area of eastern Idaho, with a roster of 700 volunteers whose average age was 74 years. I did that for over 2.5 years before I retired again. I can speak professionally and competently on the subject of why people engage themselves in volunteer activities. I've done really extensive reading on it, and study, and I have a lot of firsthand knowledge as well over the last 10 years. It's very scientific in the steps taken in setting up a system where people become engaged. A lot of people around here just assume that volunteers are going to show up and stuff these

envelopes or whatever and that's not the way it works. This could be...volunteerism...one of the fundamental drivers of what brings people to this resource in the first place. Volunteering, believe it or not, is a viable economic activity. it's counter intuitive. It doesn't initially seem to make sense, but it is. Volunteers spend a lot of money. If you wanted to really think of something specific about the economic impact of something very specific happening to the river, you might want to study that incredible core of volunteers at Dead Horse Ranch. They're really there because of that river. If the river wasn't in Dead Horse, and it was just an arid piece of desert, I don't think they'd be there. I don't know how many of them are there on any given day, but I know that Eric ?? works with a core of about 70 of them. We volunteered there in '07 to write that trail(?) guide and were on site for 4 months, so I really doubt they understand what kind of a culture they've had going there and those are some very wealthy people. They have very substantial investment in their rigs, and they spend a lot of money. This is what we found in many of the rural communities that we have travelled to in the west in our volunteer career. One of the things that we did for the Forest Service, we were secret shoppers. They sent us to over 50 National Forests in 45 states over a 5 years period so we got to actually see a lot of things that normal volunteers wouldn't see if they were just sitting in one place for a long time. There are little pockets of places where people know what volunteers can do for a community when we get these wealthy people to come in and stay for an entire season. They could be the equivalent of somebody with zero impact on your infrastructure and spending as much or more than somebody who had moved there. There's zero drain on the school. They're usually healthy and energetic, so they're zero drain on healthcare. They're active, they get out, and they support the community. There's a point in time when a person decides to step forward and volunteer. There's a discreet moment in their life when they actually take action to do that. They may have thought about it a lot, but there's one day in their life where they walk in the front door, they pick up the telephone or they physically take that step. That's the big ???. What happens between here and there and what happens to keep them here instead of them turning around and going "Not what I thought". When you get them through that door, your challenge is to keep them. The way that you do that is by helping them be fully engaged and by playing to their strengths, their desires, and their interests and by recognizing them as unique individuals who make a very specific difference. This whole new generation from the baby boom that has washed up to shore in the world of volunteerism is a complete shift from the old generation. A lot of the older volunteers that I managed, they don't want to have to do any independent thinking. They want to be told when to show up, okay sit down, make sure that you fold this half first and this in half to go second, ok? They love that direction and they love the repetition and they love the direct management. The new generation of volunteers is 180 degrees opposite. If you try to do that, they 're going to run out that door faster than a track sprinter. They want to do something that is unique. They want to know that they themselves are making a difference and if it wasn't for them, something wouldn't be getting done, and they can look at their projects and say "I did that." It has a beginning and a middle and an end. Then when they do one project, they can think about doing another project. You can get people coming from all around this country to do various volunteer projects for you, year around. There would be so many ways to harness volunteers in this valley, it's unimaginable. That's not something that people think of because, and I'm not being critical of anybody, there are so many organizations that use volunteers right here in the Verde Valley that are very turf oriented and they pretty much are looking out for themselves rather than the collective greater good of volunteerism as a whole here. We have seen the best success when people who utilize volunteers work together among themselves to support each other and also encourage volunteerism together knowing that ultimately they're going to have a greater pool from which to draw and a greater energy resource in those volunteers. We're of that new generation ourselves, and if somebody wants me to folds things to stuff envelopes, I don't want to do that. I'm might do it once to be nice, but I want to be in charge of a project, like this river data I'm doing for Chip here. I'm just going to go out and I'm going to do it to the best of my ability, I'm not going to

ask anybody, "Oh please, I can't figure this out. You're going to help me out." I'll get it done and I'll just say, "It's done. Now it's yours." Then walk away. That's what we do. We love it.

Q 7: What or who do you see as current or potential barriers to advancing sustainable economic development in connection with a healthy river( for example, laws and regulations, property rights, institutional like ditch companies, water companies, historic uses, etc.), changing cultural values? (If response is that “there are too many,” ask for top 3-5…interviewer’s discretion)Exactly why they're doing it. What you're going to come up is a study that's going to make a lot of key points and it's up you to publicize that study. Nothing is standing in the way really. You have financial support now and you're bringing the best brains in the Verde to bear on the subject. There are people who don't want the connection between a healthy river and a healthy economy to be made. It's just a numbers game in any population or group, there's going to be a certain percentage of naysayers and a certain number of people that think you're full of it for trying to do what you're doing. I don't know who they are. I'm not sure this is appropriate for this interview, but you remember the whole thing about sand and gravel and everything. I had my life threatened several times by various people that we both know, some of whom are rather notorious for those types of things. I'll never forget when the dealers of Valley Concrete turned around and donated that parcel that they had in mind to parks. The day that that guy got up and made a little speech about how he didn't use the word, but he clearly had an epiphany about the river and he clearly realized that it was more important to be used in a different way. I almost started crying. That would have been unthinkable back in the day when the status quo was all that they knew. That's what awareness of this river and about this river and whatnot can do to human beings. It can create change in their hearts. How that occurs is somewhat of an artistic process. I'm not so sure you can say if we do this and this and this, we're going to have XYZ change in this number of people and they're going to step forward. No, you're probably never going to get to that point. You have to have faith in process and you have to know that your faith itself is going to produce the result that your vision sees. It's a fundamental visioning process. If you all believe that that process will work, it will. If people say this isn't worth the time and it's no! t going to work, why are we wasting our time, then it won't work. But if you believe it will work, it will. You have to forge forward knowing that it is half faith as well as half action. That's what we always did back in those days. We just assumed that we just had to put our shoulder to the grindstone and put our head down, put the rope over the shoulder and just tug and go and push and be consistent and say the same thing and make it positive, joyful process of celebrating the river instead of critically berating somebody for their negative behaviors. We tried to really minimize the use of negativity. We tried to create the feeling of satisfaction and enrichment in peoples' lives by having this resource rather they use it once a year or not at all, it's part of the spirit here. It is! Remember when I was running for county supervisor in '92. I had a campaign slogan I dearly loved, "Yavapai Pride". I made up buttons for that. I thought, you know what, this is a fabulous county. Let's just celebrate our pride for this place. Let's not be...we've got problems, but we don't have to run around wringing our hands and going oh woe is us...these problems are insurmountable. If we show our pride and feel our pride and try to live our pride in this place, we can overcome those problems as a people. They're just problems and everybody faces problems. It's the same way with this river. Maybe "Verde Pride" would be a cool thing. Where is your pride in this river and its tribs and all? This is an incredibly fabulous, unique, one of a kind resource that can't be duplicated anywhere in this country. We love water and up in Idaho, there's a million rivers and water coming out of everywhere. There's vast quantities of water, but there's still nothing like the Verde up there. That's a whole different ecosystem. The sense of place...this is the only place like this that there is.

Q 8: Who do you think might be interested in using the findings of this Verde River Economic Development Study, including the results of interviews such as this one?Chances are it's going to have limited local utility, excepting your ongoing education efforts, of course, which should be another arrow in your quiver of tools for that. I think it's something that you would want to use as part of the marketing plan for economic development, bringing people in from outside this area. We have enough in these odd circumstances with the forest service and so forth to have coined a name for a phenomenon that we observe time and again. We used to call it the backyard effect. The people who have an incredible resource in their backyards, as a rule, generally are the least likely to recognize or appreciate it. It's the people from outside who come in and say "Oh my God, look at what you have here. This is incredible." Meanwhile the locals go "Oh really." So as much as it is a challenge to try and educate the newcomers, it's also got the potential to be more productive because they're more likely to immediately as newcomers to be able to see the uniqueness and specialness of this resource. Much more so than somebody who has lived here for 30 years already and had adopted their own belief system about what it is. Those belief systems are unlikely to change appreciably, no matter what kinds of education is laid down on them. If we would have tried to depend on those types of people and made changes in citizen support for the Verde River, if that would have been our strategy, we still wouldn't be past square one from when we started in the 80s. The miracle of what is occurring as the current effort to preserve the Verde is as a result of people who have moved here. If you did a demographic study of the birth place and time of residency of the members of the organizations that all out there now on the Verde River, you would find a very small percentage of people who were born and raised in the Verde Valley and a very small percentage of people who have lived here for greater than 20 years. It's kind of a two edged sword. In some ways it's too bad that the population exploding even though the economy is giving us a little breather right now. On the other hand, that's where your best friends are going to come from. There's people living out there, who knows how many thousands of miles away right now, that will move here soon and will become one of the Verde's best friends. If that's what public education is all about, how to help them understand what they're moving into and how to awaken that sense of awe and inspiration and the passion to step forward and do something about it. You ain't going to get that from some multi-generational person other than people like yourself. You're an exception. We enjoy that aspect of it. Came to the Verde Valley about 30 years ago. I'm kind of a nut case, too. I was living in Flag at the time, but was an addicted kayaker back in '80, moved to Flag in '80. I founded a Northern Arizona Paddlers Club in March, 1981. We got heavily involved with the Verde River immediately and what got me in upstream stuff...all kayakers care about are white water rapids, they don't think very far outside that box. In the spring, the river would never clear up. The water would never clarify. It was always dirty and I got curious. That's when I went upstream and found the in-stream sand and gravel mining and I was just aghast. To me that was barbaric and Neanderthal. I just couldn't imagine that people had heavy equipment in the middle of a river like this and they were dragging it for its gravel resources. That just shocked me to my core. I just started doing everything I possibly could to see that they get out and we were successful. The river has healed quite well from those days and the floods. It has good healing power. This project that we're doing for Chip and the Friends of the Verde River Greenway (Chip Norton), it's helped me rediscover all of those great feelings of, they're hard to quantify (interviewee gets teary), helped me rediscover my love of the river. And what an incredibly beautiful place it is and just how spiritually and emotionally valuable it is. It's a fabulous river and I love it and I'm proud of it.

What could we do with $5-10M to be spent on the Verde River?

That would be great. To facilitate actual on use of the river in canoes or inflatable kayaks or like ??? did in the old days when he had that old pontoon boat down in Camp Verde and people would sort go out and have cocktails on the lake above the diversion dam. You'd be amazed at how people loved sitting out there on the water. One of the things that we've noticed in paddling the hidden reaches of the Verde down to the valley is that there are people that actually have little docks and pontoon boats and they clearly still do get out on the river and mill around. They're typically in those big pools upstream from the diversion dams and whatnot. In effect, there's a bunch of really nice lakes out there in the river. It's just one of the most fun stretches of the river. Right smack dab through the heart of the Verde Valley here and you think it's going to be blighted and you're going to see all of this, but you don't see anything except the beauty and the naturalness of the river. You see a few houses of the Verde Village here and there and you have to cross some pretty ugly diversion dams here and there, but other than that, it is just fabulously beautiful. It's a shame that more people can't see it because that was our thing when we got the money from the Bureau of Reclamation to give away 1000 river trips. That's what we said, if we can just let the river speak for itself. We just have to step out of the way and facilitate the river's ability to speak for itself. When people see her, they are touched by it. The river talks to them in a way that only a river can do. You don't have stand out and proselytize them or beat them over the head with all those facts and figures and statistics and good guys and bad guys and stuff like that. You just have to let the beauty of the natural free-flowing river touch the heart of a human being. Spend money to put people on the water. Improve the access, the roads to the access, work with the ditch companies to make their resources safe and useable for the people so you don't risk your life portaging in places. Create a valuable river recreation system and this guide is going to go a long way in helping people realize where they can access it and what it's like and what to expect. There are problems that need to be solved. There's perennial issues with strainers that fall down and create pole blockages. There's a mass of blockages below Verde Villages that's the most dangerous thing that I've ever seen. The river goes down to the power of Verde Village and it turns a 90 into a lake bed block. Back after the '93 flood, the corps and the NRCF put in those really ugly railroad tracks. Then in the slow flow situation. the Arundos have created an impenetrable wall across the river here and the debris comes down piles up against the Arundos and so there's a total 100% blockage here. In between, you have all the jack and stuff. So now the river's kind of diverting over here in the high flows, but in the low flows, you can't get through. The portages just got really dangerous and difficult through all this vegetation. It's on private property (I believe, owned by Kaki C???) . Then where they're running from Big Knotty down to Newton Lane, we ran into several blockages and then the Verde Ditch blockage below the upper lane is the most problematic of all. If I had a bunch of money to spend, I would just basically buy up the Diamond S, the Verde, the one there that serves the Rez and I don't think I'd mess with the Cottonwood Ditch, it's so tough to go below that because it's all vegetation and I'd just say we want to give you guys some money to figure out how to improve your structures to make them more efficient for you and safer for the public. We want to make these things sustainable. We want to reduce annual maintenance costs that you have to pass on to your shareholders. We want to make it easier for you to withdraw water from the river, but by the same token we want to make it easier for people to use the river. We want to enter into a partnership with you to do that over the long haul. We'll be there for you after the next flood and the flood after that and we're not just going to love you and leave you. We want to make this river useable forever. That's the goal. That means you're going to have water coming into your ditch. Ditches are in fine shape, they don't have to do nothing. The point of it is, that even back in the old days, the ditch people, I just develop an affection for them. They've been working with the river, some of them for their whole lives. Andy Groseta's dad is a classic example. He and I used to talk a lot about stuff. We'd be hard pressed to find somebody that loved that river more than he did. Yet lot of people didn't like him because he ran the ditch.

Who else should we interview?As a control point, a total newcomer. Somebody that has no relationship to the river just to find out if they're even aware of it or if it factored into their decision making in coming here. When we were doing the secret shopper gig, I'd like to explain a little bit about that. In the old days, all national forests in America, when asked how many visitors they had, someone would reach into the sky and pull a number out of thin air. Why we get a million visitors a year. And the press would dutifully report that and it dawned on people back in the late '90s that all of those numbers in all 155 national forests were 100% bogus and they were not based on any reality whatsoever. So they developed an incredible statistical effort called NVUM (National Visitor Usage Monitoring program). They have sunk millions of dollars into this program. Our role was as quality control for the exit interviews from various forest service sites because we had to pose as tourists and then go through the interview process and see if they were following procedures correctly and ask any questions that they were supposed to be following a script. So we were part of the statistical control process for the study, and there were numerous other steps that were built into it as well. They were set up on four year cycles and so that 1/3 of the national forests and grasslands would be conducting the interviews in any fiscal year and then in the fourth year it was data processing. Then the four year cycle would start all over again. They're in their third four year cycle as we speak. We would overlap in the first two. Just Google up National Visitor Usage Monitor and there's a thorough website and you can pick any given national forest and you can read the reports of what their statistical usage most likely really is for that forest. What they were attempting to find out was if it could not only be the wrong numbers but the actual types of use that were occurring in a physical and a calendar sequence. There was an economic component too, to find out how much money they were spending in the duration of the stay and how far they'd traveled. Fabulous effort. They actually now have enough data to tell you what's going on in any given national forest. If you could in some way, use some of your study money to go beyond the interviews and attempt to create and collect some statistically viable data about peoples' perceptions about and use of the Verde River and how it fits into their lives. I think that that would go a long way to facilitate the goals and objectives of the study. Studies like that aren't cheap. The government...who knows how much they spent. it cost many, many millions of bucks. They have really good data now and nobody can b.s. anybody. You're doing that with this study. You're cranking it out by sitting one on one with people listening to whatever they care to blah on about.

Anything about the study that concerns you? Cautions?I think you're doing a good job. I think your questions are well framed. I think you’re asking your questions well. You're helping the narrator clarify their points and your allowing them to pretty much have free reign. I can see that you've gained a lot of professional skill in the interviews that you've done so far. Are you asking people the questions from outside of the area? (told him of walking the river and interviewing users) Have you interviewed the Alcantara crowd? We're trying to turn NRCS around. Kaki's no longer involved. I'm an official advisor for the board because they're really trying hard to get back into some semblance of balance. Jodie has decided to reach out to the wine crowd. She's had 2 little wine tours and she's getting a rep from NRCS to come along and just see if there is any kind of technical assistance or what types of resource major issues might the district facilitate some assistance with the vineyards. Nothing to do with wine per se, but how can we help with the irrigation and soil use and stuff like that. That's why I was over at Alcantara, visiting with one of the people, not Barbara, one of her managers. We're down on the back 40 talking vines and drip and stuff like that and it dawns on me that "you mind if I ask you a question?" Give me a little perspective about how you feel this little gig you're doing with the river company fits in the history of the Verde River. She said, "I don't know what you're talking about." You created something historic. There has never been a commercial out there to use the upper Verde River in the area it's being used until they partnered with you. So all of a sudden by

you creating a winery here in the worthless caliche steep slopes there of the Verde lake beds. You've now brought a whole new level of stakeholder constituency onto the water of the river, including people who paddle in the middle of the winter, which is unbelievable. I actually saw somebody when we were paddling that stretch of the river and they were having a ball. It was January. That's history. That's never been done before. That's creating a genuine economic impact for this river that needs to be called to people's attention. If you can do it, then there's other people who can do it too. That's really cool. There's so much potential down therefore people to go to the river for whatever their own personal needs may be. To sit, for solitude, to play in the water, to fish, to study the birds. Being a bird person yourself, it's like Disneyland down there.

Are you more hopeful today about the health of the river?Absolutely more hopeful. The dire circumstances that the river once faced are now at least on everybody's radar. There's a significant constituency of people that recognize the tangible threats to the river, whereas in the past , there was virtually no one. There's a significant number of people who are willing to take action and to even devote large parts of their life working on behalf of the Verde River. There's progress being made. What more can you ask for. This is a big deal. It's because of people like you and your peers here in the Verde Valley that have had a lifelong interest in that resource and personally recognize its value to you and others that these changes are taking place. That's the bottom line. It wouldn't be happening without you and people like you. One thing that is important to public awareness and economic development is the use of social media and to develop a very aggressive social media strategy and implementation on behalf of the Verde River and its potential economic impact. I can't possibly overemphasize the need to go beyond traditional media as we move into the future. Please don't let the naysayers who don't see any use for Facebook and Twitter and blogs and all the rest, QR codes, please don't let them deter you. Know that without these tools, you're basically hamstrung with one hand tied behind your back in terms of promoting this place. Try to set the standard for the use of social media. Be an inspiration to others. Go as far outside the box with social media as you possibly can. The Verde River should have a Facebook page. It should have one of those group pages where it wouldn't have a goofy address. It would be facebook.com/verderiver or twitter.com/verderiver or whatever. Have its own dedicated g-mail address or something for a blog. Look at what social media does and what it's potential is and look at all of the ways you can reach people with social media that no other media can. You can have friends for this resource all across the planet.! I have one story that people probably would want to hear. I wanted to do a volunteer project and we have this idea that you can create your own projects. I wanted to help Montezuma's Castle, Montezuma's Well, and Tuzigoot develop a social media strategy this winter. I emailed down while we were still in Idaho and in advance of doing that I did a tremendous amount of research on the use of social media by the national parks service nationwide. As a result of the research, I found some pretty astounding things. The park unit that had the biggest number of twitter followers happens to be one of the smallest, most obscure park units in the system. It's a 120 acre property on the dry side of the Big Island in Hawaii. Thousands of more followers than Yosemite, Yellowstone, Tetons, Grand Canyon, Shenandoahs. The guy recognized the power of Twitter. This ranger over there. he decided to make it his own deal. To put his mark on the map. It just blew everybody away. The entire system. He showed that he would take nothing and attract thousands of people to it. Even to the point now that people are coming to the Big Island now just to go to his property. Put it to use on behalf of the Verde.

Doug interviewing Lana Tolleson, Jan. 26, 2011, 3:45 pm, in Cottonwood Chamber of Commerce officeemail: lanacottonwoodchamberav.orgphone: 928-634-7593

VREDS Interview Questions

Q 1: What do you think are the most significant factors influencing the health of the Verde River system?

L: I know that there's the biological problems that they...my knowledge of a lot of this is slim...I know that there is beaver fever that's causing a problem with the quality of the water itself. But I think maybe the usage with different entitities feeling that they own rights to it where other people do not

D: Water rights conflicts?

L: Water rights conflicts...thank you. Yes you can help me at any point.

D: I try no to do that.

L: Well, giving me the words is not such a bad thing.

Q2: Do you feel there are things about the Verde River that we need to understand better? If so, what are they?L: I think, I know we had a quarterly luncheon and had Rick Mabery come talk to us about where the water rights stand. Who has the right. Also, probably, things like the biological part of it. If there's something wrong like the beaver fever, getting that information out. But also what can you do to fix it. What...not just the fact that something's wrong...but who's responsibility is it to clean it and keep it healthy.

D: In Rick's situation, do you think that people need to understand how the water rights, the surface water rights system works?

L: There's just a lot of misunderstanding on what the whole conflict is and he did a great job of explaining the first in kind, first in right...I think that's what it was...and just helping people understand that no matter what the conflict is, and I know through Verde Valley Leadership we had SRP people there and just all the problems with wells and ground water usage and all of the legal issues that you can be involved in if you happen to pump water from the river or the ditches. There's a lot of legal things that people don't understand.

D: There's a lot of legal things that water lawyers don't understand. It's a pretty complicated process and system for sure.

Q 3: To your knowledge what, if any, economic development activities have recently been, or are currently being, conducted that directly relate to the Verde River? Who is involved in these activities? L: Well, my thought immediately goes to tourism, but you know, Dead Horse Ranch State Park is always doing what they can to improve their facility and help people to be able to make use of the river. There's Sedona Adventure Tours that does the float trips Water-to-Wine which is one of the biggies. Then they do some of the non-wine related float trips. And just helping people understand the value of

our river. But there could be more canoeing or kayaking opportunities. I think Dead Horse had canoes that you could rent maybe...I'm not sure if they still do right now but...there's. I think that having lived in places where, especially in Texas where a lot of people would canoe or kayak on the rivers. I think that's under utilized here. I'm not sure exactly what the reason is, but it seems that...I did the water-to-wine float trip and it was great. I'm not sure why that hasn't developed yet which in a way has kept the river pristine. The lack of use sometimes is a good thing. I think that's an economic development opportunity also.

D: OK. The Chamber itself is involved in some economic development opportunities for the river because of the Verde Valley Birding and Nature Festival brings an awful lot of people in here.

L: Yes, we do.

D: Now they're in fact one of the recipients of the Walton Family Foundation.

L: Yes, they are. In fact, they're talking about doing the birding map which does the ...the event is fantastic. It brings a lot of people in. It's a lot of exposure. But the map that they're talking about doing can bring people in 365 day of the year. They come in and this map, as I understand it, will list where the good birding areas are. What are the seasons when different birds can be seen. So to me that's a great tool that we've not capitalized on yes. So that is a great thing. Even with the wine thing, the water-to-wine float trip. That's the only trip of its kind anywhere around the world. So we try to publicize that as enjoying the river and that the wineries. We have Verde River Days that brings a lot of people up from Phoenix and it's completely about appreciating the river. It's totally educational.

D: Do you think that that contributes to the economic development of the Verde Valley?

L: I think it has an economic impact and anything that brings outside money into the Verde Valley definitely has...it may not be long term, sustained development. But that one weekend, that does bring people up. And quite a few come from the Valley.

D: Is it, would you say, mostly the hospitality industry that benefits from that?

L: Well, restaurants, and gas stations, and they're going to stop at Walmart, and they're going to stop and Fry's or Take Away. Retailers, you know. If they go to Old Town, they may do shopping in the antique places or there's... It's hospitality, but also you know it kind of extends. Of course, any dollar that spent here is going to turn over several times. We'll take as many outside dollars as we can get. I like those outside dollars where people come and spend them and they go back home, tell their friends, and then they'll come back.

D: Do you mentioned that canoeing and kayaking is some of the development opportunities, economic development opportunities, that exist. Can you think of any others that maybe you feel that we should have but we don't. As you said about water-to-wine, you don't know why it isn't more used.

L: Well that there isn't more people offering kayaking...businesses for kayaking and canoeing.

D: Are there other businesses, you think, that are missing?

L: I think that, of course you'd have to do the marketing to get the people here, but there's to me a great opportunity because the river is an awesome river to canoe on. There's not a lot of whitewater, but it's a good, fun family type trip. You're not talking any 4s or whatever, but just to bring a family in, I think that's an opportunity.

D: What do you think stands in the way of it?

L: I'm not really sure. I know Richard Lynch is doing a pretty good business. He's really one of the only ones that do any type of kayaking or canoeing and I don't think he's slammed with customers, but I think, but even just basic rentals, not even, guiding the tours, but basic rentals would be. I know they talked about the Old Town Jail having things available...even birdwatching equipment and things like that and birding guides or something that, to take advantage of the birds that are here because of the river.

D: So you're pretty aware of birds.

L: I'm not a birder myself. But I've been in several communities before that have had large populations or birding festivals. In fact, we down in Uvalde, TX, while they were having one of their festivals, a bird was spotted that was from South America that had never been spotted in the U.S. before. And all of a sudden, our community was swamped. A small town of about 10,000, we were swamped with all these birders that wanted to see that bird. Within 3-4 days, the world was coming there just to see that bird. We've got far more species, varieties here.

D: We do. We have ...I have a perfect birder...and one of the lectures I give at the Birding and Nature Festival is why the Verde Valley. What brings all these birds here. We have this wide range of habitat. Oddly enough there are a number of birds whose distribution just kind of reaches the Verde Valley. From the north, or the south, or the east, or the west. So no matter where you come from, the Verde Valley is going to be one of the first places you can see a lot of birds.

L: That's good to know.

D: It's really interesting. (unintelligible list of birds) And they occur here in the valley. The first or second Verde Valley Birding Festival, I was driving my bunch of people out to wherever I was taking them to bird, and there sitting on the fence post right outside Dead Horse was a scissortail flycatcher. I thought somebody had really planted that one.

L: Ignore the chain around its little leg. It's nice when those things do happen when you're having an event and something happens like that. I think the Birding Festival does a wonderful job of bringing people in. With the additional money for advertising this year, I think it's going to raise awareness nationwide. I think it will have a residual effect.

D: Bringing David Sibley in is huge. That's a name that all birders know and so they're going to come to see him. That really gives it a lot of cache.

L: Yeah, some credibility, "Oh, he's coming." There may be people who, I know the Birding Festival is limited by the number of vans and volunteers, which is a shame, but the money could not have gone to help the festival to be ab le to grow. it was almost maxed out and now we're advertising to bring more people in. There's not additional trips. That's good, buy what are you going to do with all these extra

people who can't get on any of the trips because they're maxed out. Maybe the people who can't come then, if they know that we have a birding map and that this is a birding area, maybe they can come at another time.

D: I think that this is just the first year of having some serious money behind it to do anything like that. So the the festival and Barbie and Walton Family Foundation will learn something from this. Maybe that will be the lesson.

L: Hopefully our phone won't ring off the wall with mad people when..."Why did you tell us about it if we can't register?"

D: They really need vehicles. ????

L: Seriously they do. We have many times when they just say the word van, they get pounced on. Like you have a van? How many people will it seat? Will you let us have it?

Q 4: What potential economic development opportunities exist which are associated with the Verde River system in the Verde Valley? SKIPPED?

Q 5: In your opinion, what information and facts are there that could be used to promote and advance the connection between the Verde River and potential sustainable economic development in the Verde Valley? D: Is information or facts that aren't getting out there that could help make that connection?

L: I think that ...I'm not in the birding community and being fairly new to this area, I've been here about 3 years, so I'm still learning alot...I don't know that our local people completely understand what a great birding area this is. So that if our local people don't know it, how far does that information get out. Maybe for the serious birders, but what about casual birders. Things like there's a lot of people in the Phoenix area that may be casual birders that need something to doo. It would be great so that next year when the 52 weekend adventures comes out, there could be information about birding in the Verde Valley. I think that that's an opportunity, if this map is created, that will give us an opportunity to be able to have something to share with people and I think that's definitely economic development opportunity. You can, like with the wine country thing right now...you can drive through and not know anything about the wine, not know anything about the birds. I think there's a lot of opportunity with the river that way. You know it's been kind of a nicely kept secret.

Q 6 Who are important potential supporters in advancing the connection between a healthy Verde River and sustainable economic development?L: I'm definitely shankful for the Walton Family money. As we said that having the funds to do projects especially the research goes a long way and then we will be able to attract people. The chamber is a good source. All the local chambers, not just the Cottonwood Chamber, but the Sedona, Camp Verde, Clarkdale, Jerome. The cities and towns that have an appreciation for the potential impact and especially the people that will make their rules and laws will help businesses that want to locate here. Make it easy enough where they don't have to jump through too many hoops. I think our birding community, the people that are our birders. Maybe just getting more media attention. I'm thinking what all we do for the wine trail. We have a marketing company that finds media people that find travel writers that are interested in wine and they bring them in. If we could have that same focus of finding

writers that are interested in birding and make connections with those journalists and those writers where we can get stories out there. If the David Sibley coming here, if that story could make sure it's coarried it the major birding publications.

D: Did you know that the demographics of birders and demographics of wine lovers is really similar,

L: Probably, very similar.

D: Similar in age, in income group.

L: They tend to be a little bit older, a little bit better economically, they're a little bit higher income

D: More disposable income.

L: More disposable income, generally their kids are already gone. Even though the demographic for wine is coming down, and I think Maynard had a lot to do with that. That demographic is coming down some. But the traditional birder and the traditional wine enthusiast are right in that same area. I think it's a perfect tie in.

D: So how do you think people could tie those two things together? What would you do if somebody said that's your project. I want you to tie these two things together. People who came here would get two big bangs for their buck.

L: I would try to start branding us as birding and wine. Find that mixture, kind of cross sell the birding the people with the wine and the wine with the birding. A lot of people come in a specifically ask for wine, ask them if they're also interested in birding. Having brochures about both and workin on specific media coverage that crosses the two would be really good.

Q 7: What or who do you see as current or potential barriers to advancing sustainable economic development in connection with a healthy river( for example, laws and regulations, property rights, institutional like ditch companies, water companies, historic uses, etc.), changing cultural values? (If response is that “there are too many,” ask for top 3-5…interviewer’s discretion)L: Well, this is one that I don't want to be necessarily quoted. Sometimes there's a balance between environmentalists who don't want anything to change and then economic development that requires some change. If we're talking about bringing people in that sometimes kind of butts heads. My thought is that the people who would enjoy the river tend to be a little more responsible. We want responsible tourists. We don't want the kind that are going to trash everything and then leave. I think that for the most part, the people that will appreciate the river are a little more upscale, the wine types, the birders. They tend to be a little more responsible. I think that that's the market that you go for. There are laws and regulations and all that legal stuff. That can kill anything.

D: Can you think of any specific ones that you think are standing in the way?

L: I have not looked at it carefully enough to be able to say specifically. I just heard rhetoric from all sides.

Q 8: Who do you think might be interested in using the findings of this Verde River Economic Development Study, including the results of interviews such as this one?

L: I think our state and federal government could potentially benefit if they...sometimes they need to see hard facts and information in front of them in order to make decisions. I think there's people like the Walton Family Foundation, groups that maybe have funding available to help perservations and the good balance of preservation and economic development. We need both. My comment about environmentalists, I didn't mean to flame anybody, but there's times when you've got to have both and if you can't... You need to clean the river every so often, but you don't ever leave anything to just go off on its own because it needs cleaning and it needs all the maintenance and thing that are necessary for its health.

D: The whole purpose of this study is to tie those two things...environmentalism and having economic development. The base result of a study like this is to make it clear to both sides that Hey we all want the same thing.

L: We want a healthy river. Yes. And a healthy community. And being able for people to have jost and support their family, that's extremely important.

D: Finally, I just have some optional questions. You already told me that you've been in the Verde Valley for 3 years. What ways do you interact with the river? Do you ever get out on it?

L: I have done the water-to-wine float trip. My family has kayaks. I have not been as active kayaking or canoeing as my husband and son, they do canoe and kayak. We have two kayaks and a canoe. They've done a little more than I have. At Verde River Days, you know the canoeing and kayaking is always fun. We go to Dead Horse and hike and just kind of enjoy the peacefulness and the being able to get back to nature.

D: Peacefulness is a word people mention often in these interviews.

L: And that's what we have here. Especially that's what I try to sell when I'm talking to people to tell them about Cottonwood and the Verde Valley and why some one from Phoenix should come here. They've got the shopping and all the night life and entertainment. But this is where you come and you kind of just slow down.

D: Decompress.

L: You decompress, you enjoy the peacefulness. Everybody needs a little down time and you need to get out of the city and just come and enjoy. We had a lobbyist from Washington DC that's the wine industry and we were just walking around Old Town. This is just so nice and peaceful. She goes, "It's great. It's like stepping back into Americana. It's a whole different pace." There's a lot of people that say "Wow, that was really cool. I'd like to do that again. Maybe not live here because you know, it is supposedly a slower pace." I don't know. Some of us don't necessarily think that. It's not the big city. We don't really want it to be. We didn't move here for a big city. I could have moved to a city. Personally we could have moved to a big city, but we didn't want to move to a big city.

D: So here's a question that came up in one of my other interviews. One of the other people that I was interviewing said "did you hear that somebody on the Salt River just got a huge amount of money...$80M or something like that to do some work in the Salt River, which essentially doesn't exist past Fountain Hills." And he said think of what we could do up here if we had that kind of money to put into the river. So my question to you is, if somebody were to come by and write you a check for $5M and say

this has to be spent so as to improve the health of or the sustainability of the Verde River, how would you go about spending that money?

L: I would be to call Max out at Dead Horse and the Verde River greenway. That's my first connection with the river. Find, there's a lot of maintenance and things that need to be done to the river and I would need to find who could do the scientist, the biologist stuff. Who are the people that would know what they would need to do with that money. Definitely go to the experts.

D: Max is actually where I got the question.

L: Oh, OK. I'll call Max and go Max you need some money.

D: Well, when Max said $80M at the end of the interview, I said let's just dream a little bit. What would you do with $80M. He had several projects and they ended up to in my head about $1M. But they were serious things that could have done some serious good. And it was amazing how little it added up to. If you just had a minor amount of money. $500K or $1M you could do really subsantive things up and down the river and hlep tourism and all the sustainable things. So what's surprising is 1. how little money it is and 2. how hard is to even get that amount of money for something like this.

L: That's why the Walton Family money is such a fantastic thing. Maybe it can help to springboard to more so we can do things to help the river. Unfortunately it takes money.

D: Yeah, I've been working on river issues for pretty close to 30 years around here and this is the first time that I've felt as hopeful as I do because of them. They're getting us some serious work done. I just see in the future that they'll see what we're doing, what the chamber's doing, and what other people in the Verde Valley are doing and really delivers. So they'll remind you to want to contribute . Who else do you think I should want to interview with this.

L: I'm sure you want to talk to Dead Horse. They were my first when you were talking about the economic impact. I was just trying to look at what impact there was. In 2009, there was over 170K people that visited Dead Horse. I was trying to put a number to that. I've been calling and asking what percentage of that is local and what percentage is out of town. And I can't get anybody that can give me a number. So even if it was 50%, that's 85K people and I was looking at an average visitor spends what amount of money. I think we could be conservative and say $200 because we've got...have you seen this. It lists like $385 or something I think. I think it's a lot more Sedona related with their loding and all so that I though a very reasonable number, especially if you look at that some of those are kids. You know 4 people in a family. If you look at $200 a person and then at 85K people and whatever. The direct impact of Dead Horse...$85K x 200 that's $17M just from the people that go to Dead Horse. And according to this survey, that's not even the top reason why people come here. So there's.

D: Yeah, what percentage of the people that come here come here to Dead Horse. Probably a very small number.

L: Well, it...the people that took this survey of Dead Horse. it was 14.9% of the people and that is from 170K people. My hustband is no telling how many of those because he goes out there to hike and mountain bike and fish and do stuff. I've got calls into to people to tell me what percentage do you think it is. Is 50% too high? Do our locals use it that much. If we look at 50%, that's $17M and that's not

including the multiplier effect. Obviously Dead Horse alone has a huge impact. That's just one of the things that affects the river here.

D: I was just given three documents by Game and Fish guy that I interviewed. Game and Fish has done impact of hunting and fishing on local economies ??? If you want those...

L: that would be good to have. I've been trying to pull things together because we've go some research projects going with the wineries. We've got an economic contribution study that you've probably heard of. Eric Glen ? with the University of Arizona is doing and that's industry wide for the wine industry. Millions of dollars that's coming in, right now and they don't even have all the numbers. And then NAU is doing a tourism specific study with people visit the wineries and go to festivals that are wine-related.

D: I wonder if Eric's on our list. I'll have to put him on our list.

L: That would be good. And Thomas Combrink from NAU that's doing... they probably would have some. I think he did this. I know he's doing the new one.

D: How do you spell his last name?

L: COMBRINK. He happens to be graduated from Texas A&M like my husband and now my son are at Texas A&M. It was funny, the first time I met Thomas I was with Casey Rooney. We went to a AED meeting up in Flag and we're were getting out of the car and this middle-aged guy gets out of his truck with a Texas A&M cap on. If people around here wear a Texas Longhorn cap they may or may not have any connection whatsoever. But if somebody has on a Texas A&M cap, there's a reason. He said he had graduated from there which shocked me because he's from South Africa. I asked him what brought him to Texas A&M. He said that he was trying to decide, and I think maybe it was his masters, he was trying to decide. He was looking a maybe Chicago or somewhere in the midWest. He was watching the weather and it was snowing in the one location and it was bright sunny and 80 degrees in College Station, TX, so that's what took him to A&M. He's the one that does the tourism studies with NAU. I've got a phone number and email for him.

Phone: 928-523-9194 email: thomas.combrink@nau.edu

continuing unrelated discussion

A final and especially complex question to be asked depending on the conceptual sophistication of the interviewee’s responses to questions 1-7 above:What ideas do you have about what can be done to make the Verde River a focal point for regional economic development?In closing, each interviewee may be asked (at the discretion of the interviewer): o Who else should be interviewed? o Where, in your opinion, could/should money be spent to strengthen the link between the river and sustainable economic development?o Is there anything about this study that concerns you? If so, what and why?

Additional questions may emerge as a function of initial interviews and document analysis.

Doug Von Gausig interviewing Tom BagleyJanuary 25, 2011, 1:10 pm, Doug's houseWildlife Manager with Arizona Game and Fish (wildlife biologist and law enforcement officer, game warden) working out of Verde Valley for almost 19 years tom.bagleycybertrails.com, 928-567-2478 (work)agreed to interview, cite interview is okay since government employee, approval requested before publishingQ 1: What do you think are the most significant factors influencing the health of the Verde River system?T: Since it's the Verde River system, obviously it would be continued water flow in the Verde River and its tributaries and continuous flow throughout the year which is important to wildlife, both the aquatic species and the riparian dependent species and migratory species that use the Verde River as an oasis for habitat. Arizona being a desert state, water is a limiting habitat factor for alot of the species. We don't have much to begin with. With what was there, we only have about 90% of the riparian habitat that we had historically. So it's pretty important to maintain what we've got for the wildlife species.

D: What do you think is affecting its health today?T: A number of factors. Probably the most important for the long term future is the ground water pumping that because of all the development that's happening, not only the Verde Valley but in the upstream aquifer in the Prescott-Chino Basin area, that the long term outlook doesn't look too good for maintaining flow if development continues. Human development. And they keep pumping water at the rate that they plan.

D: You see a direct connection between ground water depletion and Verde River depletion?T: I'm not a hydrologist but I've been involved in some of the meetings and have seen the studies that show the connection and it seems to be common sense.

D: Do you see anything positive happening that's affecting the river these days?T: I do. There's been attention to that issue of water flow in the Verde and what it means to the people of the Verde Valley and downstream maintaining the water. With that, there's attention to maintain the flow and the riparian habitat. Game and Fish has purchased some property around the upper Verde River for its habitat value. Forest Service has purchased some parcels in addition to what they have already down in Camp Verde and ???Trust well??? property. Nature Conservancy picked up a piece down there around the Shield Ranch. People realize that the value and how limiting that habitat type is in the state and to have a community with a river running through it and the value of that. Not only to the wildlife, but to the residents and visitors of the area, too. So it's got a lot of attention which is beginning to focus future efforts to maintain.

D: So you've seen that change a lot in the 19 years you've been around here?T: Yep, there's been a lot stronger focus lately than when I first got here.D: Good.

Q2: Do you feel there are things about the Verde River that we need to understand better? If so, what are they?T: You can never know too much. As a wildlife biologist and scientist, you can never have too much information, especially when you're using the data and studies to determine future actions and development. I think any of the hydrology studies are good connecting the aquifers to the tributaries in the upper Verde River with water flow, surface flow in the river, and what's underneath in aquifers. And

tying that back to human growth rates for development in the Verde Valley and what the Verde Valley and upper aquifers can sustain with all of the ground water pumping of wells. Looking at those studies, how much water is being taken out versus how much water the system needs to keep at least a minimum flow in the Verde River.

D: What is a minimum flow in the Verde River as far as you're concerned? What's a sustainable flow? Right now by my house, there's probably 70 cfs or something, and maybe 50 or 52 in the summertime.

T: You know it's hard to say, some of the species, fish in particular, need flow. It's not good just to have water in the river with some places drying up like some of the models have predicted with the future expansion of the development in the Verde Valley. Being a desert type system, it fluctuates greatly from winter run off floods to summertime before the monsoons when there's not much water in the river to begin with and then all that irrigation that draws water out of the river for crops. Down in Camp Verde area where I am, it seems like in the summertime when we down to 50 or less cfs, which seems pretty low, I don't know if it's good for wildlife to go much lower than that. And temperatures of water heat up when there's not much water in there to begin with in the early summer like that when it could be 150 degrees. It affects the fish spawning eggs and things like that. That seems like a minimum, like 50 or so.

D: So you think we're there in essence. No further degradation of flows.T: I think

D: I know we can degrade the flows, but you think we're already at the point where any further degradation is detrimental to the health of the river?T: I don't know that anybody can point out where that straw that breaks the camel's back is. I think just being a desert system there’s high periods and low periods throughout the centuries and within the years, there’s highs and lows, too, I think. About 50 seems pretty minimum. That's just rough.

D: So you'd like to understand those flows and hydrologics/hydrological situation of the whole Verde Valley a little better so we can make better decisions...that kind of sums that up.T: Yep, better decisions for development planning and also with wildlife, not only what flows in the river, but looking at that hydrology and the studies, some of the riparian systems that are dependent on that flow or near surface water that some of the cottonwoods, willows don't grow in the flow.

D: Mesquite?T: Mesquite. It's really important to them to be able to survive, to have at least a moisture nearby, even if there's not flow right there, a look at hydrology and what the width that stream, the river channel is effects the riparian corridor as well.

D: Nature Conservancy did is what they call their eco-flows study, a year or 2 years ago...maybe 3 years. And they actually did predictions of various flow regimes in the river and how that would affect all those riparian species. Not only that, but the mesquite bosques that are there. Just like the big one that is down here. And as the river contracted, the flows decreased, also that mesquite bosque started to creep in at the same time. You lose it way out there because the water table starts to decrease and it was a remarkable change between a small change in flow made a very large change in the mesquite habitat.

T: It's pretty important. The mesquite habitat is disappearing in the Verde Valley, too.

D: Which is amazing. You would have never thought that 19 years ago that when people were trying to get rid of it.T: Yeah, it grows pretty aggressively but where I live on a 170-acre ranch, it's right in a mesquite bosque, and I think people assume that the mesquite needs to be flooded once in a while but where the mesquite is and if you get way up on Squaw Peak and look down at the mosaic of it, some of that area I'm sure hasn't been flooded in hundreds of years. The mesquite continues to grow.D: It's growing right there.

Q 3: To your knowledge what, if any, economic development activities have recently been, or are currently being, conducted that directly relate to the Verde River? Who is involved in these activities? T: The development activities that would be famous like the purchase of tracts of land for conservation along the Verde River, like I mentioned the Game and Fish, Nature Conservancy, Forest Service, State Parks with the greenway, Verde River greenway.D: Any businesses that you know that are dependent on the Verde River?T: There's some adventure companies in Sedona that have rafting, kayaking, tubing type enterprises that dependent on the flow of the Verde River. Game and Fish, we aren't necessarily dependent on the Verde River, but it's important for our agency in managing the state's wildlife resources and hunting and fishing. We have a lot of fishermen in the Verde Valley at the Verde River, Dead Horse State Park. Page Spring Hatchery nearby produces a lot of the fish in the Oak Creek system, which flows into the Verde River. Besides the hunting and fishing license and stamps, there's the equipment that people buy to go fishing, hunting, and gas, lodging, food. I've got some copies of reports that talk a little bit about that in the state of Arizona, how important that consumptive wildlife use is, in addition to the non-consumptive bird watching, photography, things like that.

D: Do you know how many people Game and Fish employs in the Verde Valley? In the fisheries and everything?T: In the Verde Valley, there are 3 game wardens, and there might be a dozen people working at the hatchery.

D: So other than a dozen at the hatchery, do you think you would have 3 wardens in this area if there weren't a Verde River?

T: We definitely would not. The river attracts a lot of hunters and fishermen that fish the Verde River and Dead Horse State Park, but also water fowls hunters that if the river wasn't here, they wouldn't be here. And javelina or species that use the river attract the people. Just the communities being here. If the Verde River wasn't here, these communities wouldn't have begun, they wouldn't be people wanting to live in the Verde Valley. So everything that we do whether it's responding to uses wildlife calls or giving talks to schools or whatever, it's all because the communities here because the river's here.

D: So in your 19 years...this is outside this survey...you mentioned javelina and javelina hunters, were there huntable quantitites of javelina here 19 years ago?T: There were.

D: When do you think they came up here? Have you ever heard? Because they weren't here when I was a kid.T: They should have been.

D: They're all the way up in Flag now and they certainly weren't up there.

T: It seems that the populations are bigger in some of the communities than they used to be.

D: Do you think they're growing because the people are here?T: I think that's part of it. It think when you were growing up, the Verde Valley was different back in the 1800s, not that that's when you were growing up, back in the 1860s, late 1800s, early 1900s, the cattle industry was big in the Verde Valley and they grazed the Verde River and riparian area. There wasn't as much cover and as much food. There was a lot of irrigation that took a lot of water out of the Verde River to irrigate. There weren't game laws way back in 1800s, 1900s so people shot animals, wildlife on sight, they depended on them for the forks of the early settlers, miners around here. It wasn't until the early 1900s that they got laws about that, so animals were protected so that they weren't all shot out. Plus, in the Verde Valley now, there's a lot of homes that have gardens, a lot of landscaping that javelina like, and a lot of cover. So it's more conducive

D: BirdfeedersT: They eat a lot of birdseed.Q 4: What potential economic development opportunities exist which are associated with the Verde River system in the Verde Valley? D: Things that could be done but aren't being done right now?

T: I think there's some potential just from the wildlife perspective creating a little bit better wildlife habitat either doing some planting of riparian species like cottonwood, willow in areas that it's either been removed or because of flow or ground water regimes, the plants don't live there now and could use a boost in getting established again.

D: How would that relate to economic activity?T: If plants like that were here, it would be more attractive to some of the migratory bird species, areas like Tavasci Marsh, Page Spring Hatchery, areas like those could be built, Peck's Lake, private lake in the Verde Valley all could be improved and birdwatchers could use those areas. Some other migratory species like Canada geese, ducks could make better use of some of the areas near the river where you have improved habitat-wise for like how some of the agricultural fields are now. The Canada geese spend a lot of time in the winter here because of the corn fields and other fields like that that they ordinarily wouldn't if the agriculture and irrigation wasn't set up from the Verde River like it is.

D: We have our normal wintertime flock of about 45 or so Canada geese that roost on Peck's Lake and then they go downstream every morning and come back every evening right at sunrise and sunset.T: The ranch where I live right around Thanksgiving seems to be the peak, but there can be up to 500 Canada geese on the cornfield there and usually 1 to 3 snow geese.

D: I haven't seen any snow geese this year or last year. Usually there are 1 or 2 hanging out with them.T: And there's a sandhill crane that was mixed in with the Canadas just a couple of days ago.

D: Some people called me 5-10 years ago and said that there's a bird in my yard (in upper Clarkdale) and there was a sandhill crane standing there on their lawn. Right in the middle of town.T: You're a little confused to find some buddies in the Canada geese.

Q 5: In your opinion, what information and facts are there that could be used to promote and advance the connection between the Verde River and potential sustainable economic development in the Verde Valley? D: What facts are there now that could be used to promote that connection?

T: I think some of the studies that have been done by hydrologists showing that the predicted groundwater use by development can't be sustained. Some of the reports that I saw show that if that continues, by X number of years out...30 or so...that at least for part of the year and part of the river will be dry before the monsoons come. I think that information like that is good to get out to the public. It's pretty scary for people that move to the Verde Valley because the river flows through town, that the river might not be flowing for part of the year because of human activities and eventually the groundwater table drops and will affect them economically. Not being able to get water, having to drill deeper. If everyone that lives here has a strong interest in maintaining that water and flow in the river.

Q 6 Who are important potential supporters in advancing the connection between a healthy Verde River and sustainable economic development?D: Who would support that kind of a thing?T: I think anybody who lives in the Verde Valley has an interest would support that link and knowing more about it because it affects them directly in the pocket book. Chambers of commerce and businesses that are looking for customers to come here will have a strong interest in what the studies say in promoting that.

Q 7: What or who do you see as current or potential barriers to advancing sustainable economic development in connection with a healthy river( for example, laws and regulations, property rights, institutional like ditch companies, water companies, historic uses, etc.), changing cultural values? (If response is that “there are too many,” ask for top 3-5…interviewer’s discretion)T: I think that some of the ones that I mentioned that all have an interest in it and would be good to promote it if things started going that way and the river started to dry up, they may look at it like we still want the customers but we don't want them to know that information to scare them away.

D: Good point. I hadn't heard that one. You're right. That's good.

T: It's human nature that what you're trying to sell has some flaws with it that you try to cover that up or disguise it some. But for the good of the whole, it's good to have the river there. Not everybody want's their piece of the pie. Which is in conflict sustainability of the Verde River.

D: Do you think are any laws that need to be changed or looked at that might actually be damaging to the river? Things that get in your way of doing your job right?T: Even though I'm a law enforcement officer, I don't deal with those type laws very much. I don't know what they are and how those are regulated and enforced.

Q 8: Who do you think might be interested in using the findings of this Verde River Economic Development Study, including the results of interviews such as this one?D: Who do you think would like to hear about our conclusions?T: I think many of the conservation groups would be interested because of the importance of the river, tributaries, and riparian areas to wildlife. I think the ditch companies would be really interested because

of the economic impact of potential harm to the river system and their continuing to do business and anybody uses the ditch companies or has a well, which is pretty much everybody in the Verde Valley.

D: So you think these people need to know about this because...you continue to kind of make the connection between ground water and the Verde River almost seamlessly. So it seems to me that in your mind, and I happen to agree with you, there's kind of a one-to-one connection between withdrawing the water from the ground and how the river flows. Do you think there are ways that, do you think there are healthy ways you can withdraw groundwater and not have that affect the river?T: There are ways, like CAP canal, it will draw down some river and anywhere in Arizona water's at a premium, but I don't think in the Verde Valley from what I know of hydrology that you can take water out of the river or out of the aquifer and not have it affect the flow. I think they're very inconnected. They're one and the same basically.

D: I have a couple of optional questions. You've lived in the Verde Valley for 19 years, haven't you? T: Yes.

D: Did you grow up in Arizona?T: I finished high school down in Phoenix and I've lived in Arizona since '81. I spent the first 17 years of my life in Illinois.

D: And how do you interact with the river is this question...it's what you do all day long.T: It is. Being a wildlife biologist and given a portion of the state called a district that I'm responsible for wildlife management in there, doing the surveys of game animals and non-game animals, passing it on to the appropriate branch within our department, and besides the animals, the habitats that support those animals, too, to make sure they have the food, water, shelter, space that they need that support. Animals like endangered species, river otters, Game and Fish has reintroduced river otters to the Verde River system. So everything has to do with wildlife whether it's huntable, whether it's fish, whether it's non-game, migratory, we're involved with the habitat and the management of that species. In addition to my job as a game warden is checking fish and making sure that the game species of fish and wildlife are doing all right and not causing problems in the communities, too. Which all is tied into the river as well.

D: It would be fair to say probably that there aren't many people that have as intimate and constant knowledge of what's going on in the Verde River as you.T: For wildlife species, being in the job that I have and being here for 19 years, I have a pretty good overall picture of the relationship between the game animals, non-game and fish. I survey all that and am involved with projects with their habitats, too.

D: So in those 19 years, what have you seen change? If you were just talking to your friends about how things have changed in 19 years in the Verde River, what do you talk about?T: One of the bigger things is removable from livestock grazing through a lot of the Verde River. When I first got here, some of the Forest Service allotments of public land had pastures that included the Verde River that was fenced to put and keep cattle right on the Verde River and in the riparian corridor.

D: It was fenced so that they would be in the river?T: Yeah, in the summer before the monsoons, a lot of the stock tanks would dry up in the hills and some of the other pastures. Part of the rotation was to put them in the Verde River. They also could get to

some of the uplands, but because of the river and all of the plants that grown on the river, they spent most of their time right there. And it had a big effect on the riparian habitat all up and down the river.

D: So what's changed since they got them out of there?T: Well, there's a lot more riparian plants. There were some stretches that were pretty denuded and they pretty much had been since late 1800s when livestock came to the Verde Valley. After the cattle were removed, plants came back after floods. The seedlings would grow enough to not be mowed down right away and those developed into bigger and overstory plants that support more diverse group of wildlife that can use that.

D: Do you see that diversity increasing still?T: We do. We have some of our people in Phoenix that help with bird counts, the Audubon Society, that come up and do surveys on the Verde River.

D: Troy Corman?T: Troy Corman. He's one of the main employees down in our Phoenix office involved with those counts. Just that diversity of habitat from the grasses to the bushes to now the overstory that's being sustained. You get a diverse type of wildlife utilization of that habitat.

D: You see that all the time. That something, one of the things, that I kind of lecture about when I'm talking about birds is the diversity of habitat means diversity of insects means diversity of birds which means diversity of everything. You end up with a much richer kind of habitat and environment when you do those kinds of things rather than just have a single kind of plant out there.T: You could.

D: This is actually a question that came up when I was talking to Max Castillo. He said, "Did you hear that somebody gave somebody in the Salt River Valley $80M to improve habitat and whatnot in the Salt River. He says there practically isn't a Salt River. Can you imagine what we would do up here if we had that kind of money." So I invite you to imagine what you would do if somebody just came along and said I'm going to write a check for $5M, Tom, and you can spend it anyway you want for the health of the Verde River. What would you do?T: That's a tough question. From a practical standpoint, it would be tough to use that money for the biggest thing that the river needs...continued water flow. And other than shipping the water in from somewhere else, there's not a whole lot that can be done other than restricting human growth in the Verde Valley...from tapping into what water is in the Verde River and the watershed. The more people who come here, the more we're gonna need to use that water and the less water that there's gonna be in that aquifer and in the river.

D: Can you imagine a situation where you got a bunch of money and did something and a few years later you saw more diversity in the river because of it? What might that be?T: I think that with the communities that are here now, there's a lot of growth along the Verde River, but there are still some parcels that are undeveloped that probably could be purchased and set aside for conservation. Like we talked about a little bit, helping the riparian habitat by doing some planting. That would help the wildlife by having that diversity.

D: If you had...Dead Horse Ranch has a big row of cottonwoods that they're having to thin out. If you take those saplings, where would you plant them?

T: Well right now, as long as we have the okay, I think Tavasci March could use a bunch of young cottonwood trees as long as the level of the marsh stayed relatively constant because of prospects of development in that area just upstream that the marsh is fluctuating would either dry out or flood any plantings that were there. Peck's Lake, which has been off limits to the public for a while. There's a lot of potential there. It's a unique area in the Southwest to have a lake like that with water in it and riparian species in a marsh-like habitat. That's important in the Verde Valley for wildlife migratory species. Some work could be done there, habitat improvement.

D: Can you think of anybody else that I should be interviewing?

T: Someone like Troy Corman from our agency that has more of a bird background. Maybe somebody from the Game and Fish Hatchery at Page Springs, have a little bit different perspective.

D: Who would it be there? T: Wade Zarlingo is the hatchery manager. Frank Aguagos is a Game and Fish employee. Frank works at Bubbling Ponds Hatchery just adjacent to Page Springs Hatchery. They raise the native fish there...round-tailed chubs, pike minnow, razorback suckers.

D: Anything that concerns you about this study that we're doing? Anything that you think we should be careful of?

T: No, I think it's great. With any subject, I think, the more information you have and the more light that can be shed on it, than the better. Have all the facts on the table. There's gonna be different agendas and different interests that people have that they'd want to do with that information. I think the first step is to find out what's there and what the potential uses are and try to develop things in the right direction to be able to sustain what the community values in the Verde Valley.

D: I don't have any other official questions.

Interviewee: Rob AdamsInterviewer: Jane WhitmireDate: 1-30-11Q1. Well I think the most significant factor is the pumping of the aquifer at the source. I think I'm a little bit concerned about any contaminants or effluent that would be released into the Verde River or any runoffs from farming. That type of thing. [how does Sedona deal w/runoff] For the most part, we have to put the runoff into 3" catchments because Oak Creek is a protected waterway. We're mandated to do the things we need to do in order to make sure we're not adding to the contamination.

Q2. The general population, I think that it would really be helpful for the general population to really know, at a basic level, who owns the water, who it is controlled by and not only the free-flowing water, but the water in the (unclear word) zone. Also, what the possible impacts to those of us in the Verde Valley are going to be if SRP increases their monitoring and their restriction of the use of that water that they own.

Q3. Economic development - You know, unfortunately I haven't been directly involved with the economic development groups here in the Verde Valley or the larger economic development group that Marshall is involved with. So, I don't know what the names are. You're going to have to put that in.

Directly connected to the Verde River...I couldn't say. If I thought about it maybe I'd come up with something. Obviously, in my sphere of interest -- it has more to do with Oak Creek.

Q4. Well, again, my focus is kind of tourism. Tourism-related opportunities whether it be actual use of the Verde River for rafting and things, or birding, or some of the things that are going on now. I think also development of park facilities which has already been done in Cottonwood and Camp Verde on the Verde River itself is an opportunity.

Q5. I think a lot of that would probably be attained from the Yavapai WAC. I used to attend those meetings but that has been reassigned to a different councilor in the last six months since I started my second term. [reports from meetings] We have both a TAC member and a council member that is involved with the Yavapai County WAC but often times I don't see those reports -- if anything significant that is somehow going to be impactful to Sedona comes up then we'll get something but very seldom is that the case. So...I've kind of lost track. You know, the real focus that I saw in WAC when I was attending those meetings was really about trying to get the science done. The economic development opportunities were a very, very insignificant part of their focus. [how will/are scientific studies being used - when is enough] I think we need to understand the sustainability of the water supply there and that's really the focus. And that will allow us to do all levels of planning. That's going to impact all of us.

Q6. I would say one of the reasons that Sedona is involved with the WAC is because we feel as though we need to partner with what happens with the river as a regional player. Even though the Verde River, I guess you could argue really doesn't have a significant impact on Sedona per se, it's primarily Oak Creek, so we feel as though it's important to be a part of that bigger picture. Fifteen years ago we didn't hear the word regionalism. Everybody pretty much did their own thing. And, honestly I think that Sedona was probably more the problem there than not. Sedona, for a long time, I think kind of had an isolationist type of attitude where we don't really need to be a player with other people. In particular, I'm not going to take all the credit, but I have a very different view of that so for the last three years I've really tried to be much more of a presence at the table, not only in the Verde Valley but in the larger region of Flagstaff on pretty much all of those levels that impact all of us. I think it starts with the government. I'm amazed sometimes how little the citizens even go to the other communities here unless it's just to go to Walmart in Cottonwood. Very little understanding of what's going on with other communities. So, I'd like to promote the idea of inter-governmental recreational opportunities and that type of thing where we do develop relationships. Some years ago I was trying to promote the idea of an inter-community competition in athletics -- whether it could -- baseball, basketball, bowling, any number of things where we were all competing -- a synergy building type of approach. I'm trying to keep us from sinking into the quicksand from an economic standpoint.

Q7. I think the appetite for growth -- one of the things that really concerns me, for example, is the plan of the development of all the state land that is east of Cottonwood. When they came out with their proposal to the state land department of how they were going to develop that it was shocking. There was no plan in there for the sustainability of water or even where they were going to get the water. That's going to have a huge impact on the Verde River and the aquifers and the water supply in the Verde Valley. So, as a competitiveness between the communities for expanding their boundaries and growth, I see as being a major impediment. [population increase impact] Ultimately, we're going to have to have some population control. We're going to have to determine what our resources are and then we're going to have to put limits in terms of how much we can grow to live within those means.

Q8. Well, I certainly see the WAC, all the community government/municipalities in the Verde Valley, anybody that was coming in here and looking at developing. It's a huge component. [are citizens thinking about the river] It's almost entirely focused on Oak Creek. I don't think there's a lot of people thinking about the Verde River.

Q9. Well, I would say, for example, we have a company here -- an adventure company that uses the Verde River for rafting trips. So, the actual use of the river for that kind of purpose -- fishing, boating -- that type of thing, birding...it's one of the few remaining perennial waterways in the state. I think just because it's here is a huge attraction. It's something that's almost nonexistent in the southwest. So, we can certainly capitalize on that. The care of it is paramount and it's kind of like the Red Rocks here. They just don't make a lot of it and so we really need to make sure that we sustain that in its present state or even improve its present state if possible. So, the stewardship is everything really. [how do we tie revenues to activities on the river] The operators obviously do. But there is still this kind of protectiveness of your own little fiefdom and the feeling that when people come to Sedona they have to stay in our city limits or within the greater Sedona area and there needs to be a lot more collaboration/cooperation among all of the communities to bring people in and have access to all of the amenities that are throughout the Verde Valley. One of the strategies that we're looking at with our Chamber of Commerce is people that go to the Grand Canyon. it's known throughout the world and Sedona has always kind of taken second place to...once you have visited the Canyon come to Sedona. When you really think about it, you know the canyon basically has two main trails and both of them are black -- if you want to compare it to ski areas. And Sedona has a cross-section of trails that actually allows you to get -- that are a wonderful combination of green, blue and black, that you can spend days and days discovering. Pretty much anybody can do it -- all kinds of different levels. The idea here is to say visit the Grand Canyon but stay in Sedona and spend additional time here. So, I think that all of us need to be looking at all of the amenities that exist here in the Verde Valley and how we can keep people here longer. The focus here in Sedona is not to bring more people in but to bring higher spenders in for longer periods of time. I think that all of us ought to be looking at that from a economic development standpoint if the focus is tourism. The other thing indirectly that we haven't talked about is the agricultural portion of the Verde River and what that provides. In particular, from the tourism part, it's the wineries that are developing. That's a huge potential in the economic development and tourism industry. So, certainly the Verde River is providing that. Without that, we wouldn't have those. Farmers' markets...I think another thing that we really need to be focusing on is sustainable food supplies. One of the things that we're thinking about here in Sedona is creating a series of constructed wetlands out at the wastewater plant. Naturally filtrating water and reusing that water to irrigate crops that we would consume. So, certainly the agricultural component as being a producer, that provides tourism opportunities and jobs as well. If we could create a model out there at the wastewater plant and how you can reuse your wastewater, we would not only have the recreational opportunities in terms of boating and stuff out there on the river, but birding, hiking in the riparian area using the water to cool down solar heaters and to provide an agricultural growing area, algae farms that produce not only fuel but also food. If you could put an entire sustainable park there, that is something that people are going to come to look at -- and also get educated about.

General Comments:[ $5m to focus]. I know what I'd buy here in Sedona. I'd buy a creek-front piece of property for the community. I think it would be a crown jewel of Sedona. In terms of how I would develop it, I don't have the specifics. I just know that by having these water front parcels and to be able to offer access to that water and be able to swim and fish -- all those recreational opportunities that you have -- observe the habitat and the wildlife, you know, just being close to that ambience is something unique in the desert southwest. So, I think that we need to capitalize on that by creating public places.

It's just like the desert -- Sonoran desert areas down in Scottsdale. They understand the opportunities that those pristine desert areas offer to people. And, we have something beyond that. We have high desert with water running through it and that is phenomenal.

I just think it's important that we have public access to those waterways that is protected forever -- that are owned by the counties or cities or whatever so that people can have access to them. Otherwise, we are going to see the same thing we see on ocean front properties where it is all owned privately and you can't access it. I think it's important that we have the foresight to do that. The trail system is really valid. When I was down in Scottsdale, I was in the horse business there and at that time they were calling it the West's most western town and it was the capitol of the Arabian horse business in the world. And so, I said, this is something that makes this city unique. We need to preserve the equestrian lifestyle here and we need to create a trail system that people can utilize. Unfortunately, I was too late. The development was happening so quickly that you just couldn't get contiguous trails or continuous trails established. Then there was the self-interest. People wanted to be able to sell and subdivide their properties if they chose. They wanted their lifestyle as long as they wanted it and then they wanted to be able to sell off their property. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Interviewee: Doug BartoshInterviewer: Jane WhitmireDate: 1-30-11

Q1. There are so many I think. Certainly, you know use of the water and the ground water. Some of the vegetation I know is potentially concerning to the health of the river. The current weather conditions in terms of the drought are concerning. Those are probably the ones that come to mind right now.

Q2. I think that's probably true. There are so many studies going on right now that I think that to be able to collate those studies into information that we can feed to the general public so that they understand what the needs are in terms of use, in terms of the many septic tanks out there that could have an impact, our need to conserve. But, yeah, I think there is a lot of studies that have been done and there are more ongoing. Again, I think just getting that information together in an educational marketing format that can go out to the general public would be valuable. [how/who does that happen] I would think probably WAC or NAMWA in coordination with the various users is probably where it is going to go. Again, I think every city probably has different communication mechanisms. For instance, in Cottonwood we now have a newsletter that goes out to all our water users not just city residents. So, we put information in there. We have a government access channel that we do interviews on and educate people that way. And, obviously, the media plays a big role in getting people educated. [septic systems] I think obviously the biggest concern for us is the Verde Villages because it is so close and how close it does end up getting to the river. We know that a lot of those systems are 30 years old or older and they are to the point where they need to be replaced or they could fail. They may not have been properly installed to begin with. That's something of a regional concern. We have to find a way to get people off septic tanks. [Verde Village] About 4500 septics; increasing as additional development occurs in that area.

Q3. I think certainly the wine industry is part of that. Again, there has been a lot of events -- Water into Wine -- the relationship between water and wine I think has been huge. Certainly, I know that there is one -- Sedona Adventures -- that is using the river as a way to market their rafting trips. We just recently

put in a disc golf course along the river which makes for a beautiful setting to go out and play disc golf and is becoming very successful. I think the rivers are what make the Verde Valley so unique and I think that the Verde Valley is really kind of a hidden treasure. I think people tend to think of Yavapai County and think of Prescott and those areas over there. But I really think the environment here is unique. [disc course - outreach/education] We don't do that -- that's probably a good opportunity. One of the things we're doing is --we're hoping to expand it in cooperation with state parks because the people that come to play disc golf are generally very respectful of the environment -- they are very clean. They like to enjoy the natural surroundings and camp out and those kind of things. So we're hoping to actually expand the course, because now it's 9 holes, expand it to 18 holes on this side of the river and then maybe do another course in Dead Horse State Park. One of our economic development objectives is to make a better connection between the river and Old Town. Our hope is to do that through disc golf and then by revitalizing the Old Town Jail and creating some type of business there that supports the use of the river. Through that process, that would be a great opportunity to educate people about the value of the river and our natural environment here.

Q4. That's a good question - there are so many of them. I think there are so many things that we still want to do to try and make the river more accessible to tourists. The greenway..trying to create trails and do that in a way that protects the river and protects the environment. I think it's absolutely critical for our health up here. One of the things that Cottonwood didn't seem to take very much advantage of is the tourism up here. People would go from Sedona to Jerome or vise-versa and they would pass through Cottonwood and never stop here. Tourism dollars are great because they are people that generally don't stay in the community, They come here, spend their money and they leave. And so you're not using tax dollars to support those people to go to school, etc. You know that's one of the things we're trying to do and as a community that essentially is right on the Verde River -- the Verde River has got to play a big part in our tourism picture. So part of getting people here was to try and get involved in the wine industry. We've got tasting rooms here which have now really helped us begin to develop Old Town and we're getting a lot more tourists. The idea is to get them to stay longer than a day -- try and get them to stay multiple days by providing them different activities that they can do every day. The river plays a big part of that. I think probably people that have lived here have always kind of taken the river for granted and really not recognized the economic value to it. I grew up on the beach and took it for granted.

Q5. I think studies like this are helpful to understand what the economic impact is of the river -- how many people actually visit this area to experience the river. Again, I think the river is just part of the larger, unique environment up here with the red rocks and Sycamore Canyon and the rivers and Mingus and all of that is so unique I think for Arizona that it draws people to that. You know I've never heard anybody say that "well it doesn't matter if the river dries up" and I think the biggest reason that people support the river's continuing to flow -- a large part of that is economic. But, I think to a large extent, we've drawn people into this area mostly because of Sedona and the red rocks. Just like with the wine industry, we need to look at all of the unique attributes that this area has and draw people for those reasons -- whether it's to come for wine tasting, the red rocks, to parachute, to hang-glide, to kayak, to play disc golf. I think all of those work because of the environment.

Q6. I guess the question would be, "who isn't?" Certainly all of the jurisdictions are. The County, all the Chambers certainly recognize the value of it. You know, I think anybody who lives here predominantly lives here because, in large part, because of the environment. I think a big piece of that is the river. [what would it be like without the river] I don't think anyone is thinking about the absence of the river. I think there are people out there, like when I lived at the beach, that think what would be the impact if I

no longer lived at the beach. And...what a nice kind of amenity that was. I'm sure there's people like that. But, I'm sure everybody would probably say, "God, if the river dried up, that would be terrible."

Q7. I really don't see any barriers. I think everybody's operating in the context of making sure that it stays flowing and probably the biggest group that is sometimes seen as the enemy is SRP. They really have to make sure that it stays flowing because they have millions of people to serve down in the valley. So, I really don't see a barrier to that. I really don't. I think we have challenges but I think we're moving in a direction -- our philosophy here in Cottonwood is to reuse the water as many times as we can possibly reuse it. That's really the direction we're going in. As much as we can reuse it, that's what we're going to do. We are going to try and minimize our impact on the river as much as possible. We have certainly taken on the perspective, too, or the possibility that we may have to import water. But I think it would be in the context of making sure that the river stays flowing.

Q8. Anybody who is interested in providing water would be interested in that. But, more importantly, anybody who is interested in the -- who recognizes the economic value of the river would be definitely interested in it too. We did the same thing with the wine industry. We had a gentleman from the UofA come in and do - I think he calls it an economic impact study, but he looks at the economy that is generated by the wine industry and he has estimated, which is probably a very conservative estimate, it impacts this area at the tune of about $35 million a year. I mean that's huge and it's going to grow and grow and grow. It would be nice to have that kind of number related to the river so that people go "Wow, if the river went away that would really impact us." The question would be, I deal in water-related issues every day, I wonder how are you going to get the sense of those people who go to work every day and really don't have a connection, economically or otherwise with the river, and flush their toilet and turn on their tap and it always flows and they think "geeze, we've got plenty of water -- no problem." How do you get a sense for what that perspective is? In looking at our water needs long-term, 50 years out, there was some discussion about -- you know, are people going to care 50 years from now. You would hope so, but....

Q9. I think like our economic development plan, it clearly recognizes the river as part of that plan. I think that's got to be -- that's got to be -- the Chambers as they do strategic planning need to consider that, certainly cities and counties need to consider that. I think we just need to make it the focal point of every time we talk about economic development recognize what role the river plays in that. I think that's the key.

General comments: [focus dollars] I think, like I've seen in other communities which I think is just such a valuable amenity is some type of a trail system that continues along the river. We've got just a little bit right here. I've run it thousands of times and walked it and it's so amazing every time I do it I see something different. It would be nice to be able to run down past Camp Verde - to have the trail all along there I think would be spectacular -- although I think it's going to take more than a couple of million to do that. It depends -- it depends on how much land you've have to acquire for right-of-way to do it. I know The Nature Conservancy and state parks and the greenway group is working on trying to acquire all the land along there. I think once you acquire the land, I think putting in a trail is probably the least of the challenge. Again, I'd like to see a natural trail -- not a paved trail or an asphalt trail, but a natural trail where you can walk, horse ride...I think again, it's a great way to get people to recognize the value of the river when they can participate with it so closely like that. There is tons of people that just use this short trail system that runs through Cottonwood here. It would be great if it extended all the way down.

Steve and I were never able to meet at a mutually convenient time. I sent him the interview questions and received this reply. Albeit pretty skeletal, it is content rich and "concise." If I need to follow-up at some later point, I can do so. Jane

---------- Forwarded message ----------From: Stephan Block <stephan@conference-travel.com>Date: Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 1:55 PMSubject: Re: meeting todayTo: Jane Whitmire <jnwhitmire@gmail.com>

Jane, in reply: 1.  Pumping of aquifer.2.  Impact of pumping, safe yield.3.  Development, tourism.  4.  Tourism.5.  Wild river status and unique riparian habitat.6.  Gov't agencies, private businesses and business organizations7.  Mostly development and pumping that threatens flow8.  Tourism businesses, business development organizations9.  Continue promoting activities like Verde River days, Verde Birdy, float trips, train. Sorry I don't have time to expand on these responses, but at least you've got something concise.  Hope it helps, and thanks for contacting me. Steve

Interviewee: Linda BuchananInterviewer: Jane WhitmireDate: 2-20-11

Q1. I guess the primary factor for me is the drawdown of the river with the variety of irrigation systems that we have in the Verde. That is really significant to me. Development in the whole valley and the sense of how we measure the river as a resource. Is it something that we just use because it's there or is it something that we treasure and preserve and protect. I think that we take for granted that it's just moving through our communities and I've seen a lot of changes in the 30 years that I've lived here and I'm concerned what that will look like even five or ten years from now, let alone 30 or 50. [variety of irrigation] Well, I don't have any expertise with that except that we own several different residential and agricultural properties all within the Camp Verde boundaries so we're owners along the O.K. Ditch and Diamond S and also the Pioneer Ditch. We use those irrigation systems and we're aware of the limitations of them as well as the benefits and the conflict that emerges from the irrigation system during periods of shortage, particularly when there seems to be enough water coming off of either the Clear Creek or the Verde River. Then, nobody seems too concerned about it. But when we experience shortages, it is....I've seen good neighbors become oppositional over it and I don't think any of us have a very good sense of how much we're using really, it's all of the systems that our family enjoys, you turn on a valve or open a head gate and you experience the flow of water. But, we're not measuring it in a

way, or probably understanding how much we use or best practices. Those are some of the areas around the irrigation that I personally feel like I should be responsible for a better understanding and probably a more conscientious use. [how is water purchased?] You pay a fee to be a shareholder along the ditch. For instance in this neighborhood, this subdivision is part of a historic farm with water rights dating back to the 1800s and when it became a subdivision, instead of a farm, the allocation of the water was just allocated evenly amongst the shareholders in the subdivision. But, we're not metered in any way. So, we simply pay a homeowners fee that helps maintain an irrigation system but we're not measured. [on a schedule?] No, we're really not. There have been attempts to establish a schedule and it may end up in court sooner or later. What we have here, I believe, is a percentage of the water coming through the ditch but there have been some attempts to break that out where that would mean that you use water on certain days of the week and other users use it on other days of the week. But, we've never been able to get real clear or clean on that because people simply want to use it when they want to use it and there's is nothing that ever said, "You get it on Tuesday and Thursday and you get it on Saturday." We really don't know that [how many people can/do irrigate at the same time]. In this neighborhood, we just really haven't experienced a place where, and I don't know if I can even say that, because it's probably different for every property owner in here. If we were all attempting to irrigate at the same time, it wouldn't be sufficient. But, the natural balance and order of things, some people are working folks who want to irrigate on the weekends and other people are retired and can take advantage of using it in a lower period, but ultimately, the farm here, which the Hauser's farm is the biggest user on this ditch, and during the driest part of the summer before the monsoons start, they have a particularly heavy need for it. To meet their need, it almost becomes essential for the residential and the homeowners to not be taking water. That's when it becomes confrontational for a few weeks there and all of a sudden the rain starts. [Hausers and other acres rely on ditch] I honestly don't know. Our subdivision here, the Hausers' I understand, is about 680 acres. I'm not sure that all of that is under irrigation and I believe it's partially served by the Diamond S Ditch and partially by the Pioneer. We have 29-30 lots in this subdivision that range from 2-4 acres and there are upstream users as well. I honestly don't know. One of the issues, I think, that we're all facing now is that over the year, and some of it is real recent, but people begin taking water because they're in proximity to the ditch even though they don't have historical rights and so...

Q2. I absolutely think we need to understand better the headwaters and the source and the whole aquifer and I think we get information from different sources and just as a layman, I know that when I'm reading it I don't always have a good sense of when there is conflicting information -- how to value that. I haven't become a student of it to the extent that I have a very good sense about who is the trustworthy authority on it and it seems like we have a lot of different sources about it. I have tried, over the years, to attend different presentation -- some by Salt River Project and Verde River Citizens Alliance and Verde Valley Water Users so I feel like over time I get a little bit more information, but I don't have a good sense for who really best presents the overall picture of it. [new, repetitious info, how does it relate, or individual orgs reporting in accordance w/individual goals/objectives] That's how it feels to me [individual orgs w/goals and obj]. It seems like with almost every publication of the print media, there is going to be something in there that's related to water but it does feel like there's a lot of different agendas out there and I read it and then I think, what am I going to do with this information. I end up almost nothing most of the time. There is a little bit of change in that, in that I have begun to encourage our home owners association here to be willing to possibly meter or measure our water use so that we really know what we're ... where we fit into it. That's kind of a radical approach and it isn't particularly well received, although there are people that share that interest, there are a lot of others who just don't want to raise any flags or subject themselves to any authority. It's kind of the 'ignorance is bliss' thing. [even if it's a self-authority] Yes. It is because the homeowners, I guess by self-authority,

would refer to our group of homeowners association; yes, there is but I think a lot of what we experience in Camp Verde, and I've lived here for 30 years, but there is this sense of kind of fierce independence and kind of live and let live and everybody here, I think, paid a premium for their property because it's irrigated or it has irrigation rights and so it's, for most people, a really significant part of their investment, their lifestyle, they feel like they pay for it and so they're going to use it. They do that without really, we can sit here a few hundred yards from the river from Clear Creek and use that water and have it be out of sight, out of mind, what it means to the tributary or ... I don't think anybody would deliberately harm their riparian habitat. I don't think that's anyone's intent, but it's pretty easy to be oblivious to it. [the entity with no voice] You are here in your yard and you're using it and you're adding to the greenbelt and you probably think you're really contributing to your community that way by maintaining a nice property and you don't literally associate that with any kind of drawdown from the river, which is what makes the whole region attractive. It's pretty easy to be, I think, focused on just being a good property owner and not have a sense of how that connects to the bigger environment. So, that's to me something that we've got to work on and I think that if some neighborhoods or entities were willing to put themselves out there and experiment with that, that it could be a good thing. I guess there's the risk that it would really change what we understand about our water use and we might find that we're using too much or that, and I think that's hard for people to experiment with. [finding people might use too much water] I've heard that suggested, too, that particularly with Bermuda grass as an example that it doesn't need anywhere near as much water as some people choose to apply to it. But, here in our neighborhood, I actually think some peoples' biggest hobby is irrigating. There is something very refreshing on a hot summer day about turning on the irrigation and watching it bubble up and so, again, I don't think it's anything conscious, but if that's true that you can do more with less... But, again I see the variation just in our immediate neighborhood because we've chosen to have this little island of a patch of Bermuda grass around the house but almost all of our neighbors choose to flood irrigate their entire 2-4 acres and then it requires a couple sheet or a head of beef or something to keep the growth down and it's just kind of self-perpetuating. But, we have another parcel that we haven't been irrigating at all even though it has the rights. It's kind of that nagging thought in the back of your mind that should you be irrigating even though you don't need it for anything because supposedly you are protecting your land value by maintaining the irrigation rights? That's kind of a mess for people. [is it a use it or lose it situation?] We've heard that it is. That as they do the adjudication, if you...one of the mysteries, I guess for us. We've chosen to err on the side of not using it if that is, in fact, in error. See part of what I love about living here is being next to the working farm so I'm willing to abdicate my water rights if it means they can continue to farm. Otherwise, there is going to be a sea of roofs over there instead of corn there will be 680 acres of homes. So, I prefer to abdicate to the farmer if push comes to shove. But that's not really the mainstream approach here.

Q3. I'm aware of a variety of studies and projects that the Walton Family Foundation has funded to help us assess or determine the economic impact of the river on our communities. I'm not sure if we can call this directly related or not, but I'm certainly aware of the flourishing wine and viticulture industry and the fact that more properties are coming into cultivation but with grapes being a much lower water user than other sorts of crops, e.g. corn and alfalfa and other things that we've historically done in this area, so I think just the shift or the exploration around sustainable ag practices vs. traditional ag practices is emerging. I'm interested in that and peripherally involved in it but I don't have any real first-hand knowledge of personal experience with it. I'm aware of some of the recreational commercial activities on the river - the float trips and water to wine type trips or kayaking or canoe adventures that have been going on for a long time but there is a commercial aspect to that now where before it was just more the occasional recreational user that was putting out on the river when the flow allowed and now there is organized and commercial trips for that. I always kind of try to keep an eye on the mining activities and

how they impact the river. I know that recently here in our neighborhood the Shill family transferred ownership of the Shield Ranch to The Nature Conservancy and they had been running a gravel operation out of Clear Creek there and right at the confluence of Clear Creek and the Verde. So that's really significant, I think, that ... [has the mining stopped now] But, The Nature Conservancy will not be, as I understand it, mining Clear Creek at the confluence of the Verde. Well, the Shill family had historic rights to do that and I think they did it in the most respectable way that you can mine the river but, nonetheless... I can't imagine the impact two ways -- what it was doing to Clear Creek and the Verde River but also we had gravel trucks running through the residential area on a regular basis so I think the mining operations on the river are really, really significant and we are going to have to come to a place where we can put a real price and AB that also accounts for the environmental impact. My husband and my son are both in the construction industry so that's not a popular idea with that either but I think we have to start measuring things on a broader scale and it's not just the absolute rock-bottom cost of getting the product out of the river bed or ... [true cost] Yes, I think so. And, I've watched people in the last ten years, I think, the development along Highway 260 as it parallels the river there, and have driven down into old 279 and there are some really incredibly heavy industrial activity that's going in along that area that I just don't see how it could not impact the river...just the by-product of some of that industrial stuff. But, most of us just fly down Highway 260 at 60 mph and as you're passing it you just...salvage, old 279, there's just different salvage type operations and the mining operations and I think people should just take the old road once in a while and see what's really happening there and how close they are to the river. You should. Take that drive and then take some of the off-shoots and it's kind of eye opening. I think even 10 years ago that might have been designated as scenic highway. Maybe that's not the right terminology. But, it's gone rather rapidly ... it lost that designation and now you'll just see more and more industrial type stuff happening right there. I'm not sure that industrial stuff is the best neighbor for the river, frankly.

Q4. I go back to the sustainable agriculture again. I think that we're going to see, I think we're already seeing it, people that are already food producers in this area in a small scale or a large scale. I think there is such a willingness to look at new technologies and new methodologies and that we could get back to our roots, if you would, in being a food producer but to do it in a way that is just really conscientious about our fragile environment. So, I actually see that as a pretty cool economic development thing. I can see us having boutique food producing areas. Camp Verde already has it in terms of all these little neighborhoods that you can drive through and there's a roadside stand here and there and you can get food that's grown organically. It hasn't been trucked anywhere and pick it up right there. [boutique and Camp Verde] Years ago I had a fashion boutique for 15 years in Camp Verde and I think that we are just so ideally situated for that. There is a sense of discovery. Everyone flies into Phoenix and they're either going to see Sedona or the Grand Canyon, that's a given. And, as they top out at Copper Canyon, they either need a cup of coffee or a rest break and they end up here in our community not necessarily by pre-planning or a conscious choice but because they just needed to stop. When they do end up here there's just this incredible sense of discovery that ...they discover this really cool little place. [interstate impact] That's true. You know when I opened my business in 1981 and SR260 went right down Main Street in Camp Verde and so all that traffic came up there but, yeah, I think we have to be more proactive about who we want to capture and how and why but I think this could absolutely be a recreational hotspot like Moab and some of the areas where they have just really cultivated a visitor trade that loves the outdoors and the environment and has spendable income and they want cool things. They are not looking for the big box or chain-type things. I really do think this is a boutique type community. I think the wine tasting rooms that we're seeing and all of that, I just think that's going to continue to emerge in a really, really cool way that we can harness and capitalize on it and then not be attached to development from the standpoint of just more rooftops, more homes.

Although I welcome newcomers, I still consider myself kind of a newcomer. You know, I'm not one of the old pioneer families or something so I don't have an "I'm here, close the gate" mentality. [growth; but not relying solely on construction for town revenue] Yes, it does. When we experienced this period of growth in Camp Verde where we were willing to compromise quite a few things that even good science, good engineering told us at the time and there's a short term cost to that, but there's a long term cost to it as well. I think just last week the Town of Camp Verde abandoned some huge subdivision plats that they held on to for a while or kept open thinking that it was still a positive thing for the community and then, in the process of abandoning them, I think they were taking a more holistic look. It's not that those areas won't be developed, but they'll be...I think the fact that the proximity to the river and the protective riparian area that Salt River has down there and the potential for trail development and the whole concept of greenbelt and greenway, those have just changed dramatically just in the past 10 years. So, I think that's ...I think that's a great decision on the part of the municipality to just be willing to stand down and reassess what would have met the standard approvals even 10 years ago. I think that's pretty significant that it's changed that fundamentally in 10 years.

Q5. Well, I think that people need to have a good sense of the land use that's ... as it stands today, just its current state, and then how existing zoning...what that would allow for in the future that could be approved. Again, I think we really have to look at the industrial component. There's...is that defined and allocated in a way that is respectful of the river environment and what's really best for the communities. I want us to have the capacity for industrial and commercial but I think that historically some of those uses weren't very respectful of the river environment and so maybe we need to reallocate lands or be willing to look at things that ...just rebalancing it. And, I don't know what that correct balance would be. I just don't have a very good sense that we've been real thoughtful about that in the new paradigm that we have so I think that's important that we have a really good understanding of the land use and not just what each of us experiences in our immediate area but the region, as a whole -- what's going on up in Clarkdale and Cottonwood and Camp Verde because I think there's a real healthy growing sense of the regional approach and that we should capitalize on that and should be good neighbors from one municipality to the next. [how can this be done?] I think it takes a whole lot of conversations like this to get people talking about the common values that they have and I think open space is one of those. Almost everybody I've ever met in the Verde Valley seems to appreciate that we just don't run from one commercial area into another. There is kind of a sense of the uniqueness of the communities and that we value ... I think, most people, I think do value this environment that we live in. I think they think that it's a really special place, not just in Arizona but in the country and I think people are willing to work towards that. I see it when we go out on volunteer activities for the Stewards of Public Lands or the Verde Greenway. You just see a lot of people coming together that will roll up their sleeves and go to work to get rid of an invasive weed species. And, they cross all the traditional municipal boundaries when they do. When something is going on down at Rockin' River Ranch, people show up from Clarkdale and Cottonwood and Sedona and they come down to work on it and vice versa. So, I think we have to create a lot of public opportunities to share and work together on that because then I think you appreciate more of what it is that you do want to work together on and less about what you have to guard or ... [entity to lead effort] Well, I think leadership opportunities still exist but the work of the Friends of the Verde Greenway...I think they have done some good work in that area. I like the work that is being done under the Verde Front concept, although I'm less familiar with that but I attended the trails meeting this past week in Camp Verde and ... So, I think that sort of coalition or alliance that emerges from some natural leadership in the community will serve the community better in the long run that a government agency. Although I really admire the work that the National Park Service and State Parks do in our area. I honestly couldn't or wouldn't fault them. I just think we have some terrific leadership in State Park, not at the budgetary or legislative level, but at

the local level. The people that we have managing parks and park resources, I think they are just truly outstanding individuals. They have the education and the social will and I think we're just blessed with that. I don't want to see it emerge as a government agency mandated or authority type thing, because I thing that will just lend itself to become really oppositional. So, I like what's happening, for instance, with Friends of the Verde. But, I think opportunity exists for us to take that and shape it and maybe grow it. I'm not sure that we have ultimately what we need in leadership or organization at this point. But, I'm as guilty as the next guy of just being able to occasionally lend a hand. I don't get out to every workshop. I'm lucky to get out two or three a year and so I think a whole lot of people, like me, who care just are looking for the leadership. They may be willing to make a financial donation and roll up their sleeves occasionally and go to work but there is just...people are spread too thin. It's too hard right now I think.

Q6. I think the Verde Valley Regional Economic Organization is going to be crucial in that capacity. I think the fact that they have the endorsement of the different municipalities and what they've declared as their value statement and some of the work that they've done, for instance with the wine consortium, to me those are positive steps and I look to them for leadership. I think the Verde Valley Land Preservation Institute potentially...and maybe also the Central Arizona Land Trust, although I don't quite feel their connection in our community. They've shown interest and they put on a really great workshop here last November, so maybe that's an under-developed resource or utility for us. I think we need to look to Salt River Project for some leadership and community investment and the state parks and The Nature Conservancy, I think the fact that they have -- The Nature Conservancy has invested in properties on the Verde River, and maybe more than anyone else has the capacity to do that on a large scale, so I think those are going to be important. But, I also think the large land owners, I guess large and small, landowners -- anybody who owns or controls property along the riparian areas I think needs to take on their own commensurate piece of leadership for that and stewardship. I think then, when that happens, that the sustainability of the economic development will kind of be inherent in how we make decisions. I probably have thought it through enough, Jane, to know what that would really look like. You know, unless you sit down like this and drill down on talking about it, you don't ... [will work any subsequent thoughts/contributions into the report] I appreciate that. I think it's really exciting that we've kind of been given this impetus and I've got to thank the Walton Family Foundation for funding it because even the ability for really committed and interested ... just to have people to have the opportunity to focus on it and have that funding source to put it together or give it a new...shine a new light on it I think is pretty cool.

Q7. Well I think historically the mining interests have felt compelled to do things in a very traditional way - kind of a protectionist sort of thing for what they know and appreciate as a sound business practice. But potentially, every single user, shareholder in the irrigation ditches as well. If everybody is just going to fight for a limited resource instead of looking at the ways that we can come together and ensure that it's sustainable, then I think we all have a piece of it. I think you and me and everyone sitting on a small irrigated parcel, we have to think that we're potentially part of the problem or part of the solution and we're going to have to make some conscious choices about that. [what event/organization does this?] Well, I really liked what I saw happening at the Central Arizona Land Trust workshop back in November that was held up on Page Springs area. I thought...Were you at that? [no, I couldn't go that day] There was such a broad spectrum of presenters and it ran the gamut from people that spoke about historical water rights to someone from the county assessor’s office talking about the classification and taxation principles and there were organic farmers and there were traditional farmers and The Nature Conservancy. It just ... this really amazing group of presenters came together and I think that was funded by the Yavapai County Community Foundation. It came through Central Arizona Land Trust.

They were the sponsors for it but I think it was a Yavapai County Community Foundation grant. So, I really think that approach, whether it's Central Arizona Land Trust or your organization or somebody else, I think when it emerges from a kind of a grassroots alliance of concerned citizens, to me that is way preferable to a government agency or even a corporate entity doing it. I think if Salt River Project had been putting that workshop on or some other, a government agency, I just don't think it would have had that same feel that it did from being concerned citizens coming together. [education component driven by grassroots vs. corporation for own interest] For me, that's absolutely true and I love the role that the community college has had in that in the citizens' efforts because at the community college you have the opportunity of using the physical space to be really all encompassing with bringing people together and not just using the venue for one particular perspective but over the course of a year, you see the topic addressed with a variety of different presenters. The National Park Service, a year ago, was in there with a 2-day workshop and study around the Tavasci Marsh and then later you have Arizona Town Hall come in and they're looking at the regional impact from another perspective of work that maybe had been done statewide and how that applies in our community. In a month or two I think we're going to have Project CENTRL in there with a regional discussion about the river and our Verde Valley. So, I think that you can have a multitude of conversation. I don't know that there has to be a single source leader emerge from it, but it would be, I think it would be beneficial if there somehow was a repository of information that would help like the average person kind of sort through it or get a sense of what resources were out there. I think it's pretty confusing right now. I could see that you were writing. Yeah, you know that, I don't even know in this age of electronic information, when we say a repository, you know it might not mean that there's an entire corner of the library at the community college or whatever, but there has to be a place where we really are bringing that information together in a way that someone with a mild interest could start to get a good understanding of it. [complicated and interconnected] If there is so much information or so much disparate information that you can't really make sense of it, then I think the human nature is that you attach to maybe the group that you're paying dues to or the group...you can make your area of commitment smaller because that's what you have to do to make it feel manageable. So, you think, well, I'm a dues payer on the O.K. Ditch, so that's really all that matters to me is the O.K. Ditch getting enough water and do I have enough water for this. And I hope that in the next 10 years that we have a really good way of understanding what that immediate interest and area of concern is and maybe area of responsibility too, but then how you take it out to the bigger sense of community and the region. I really don't want us to lose the river. I don't want us to lose Clear Creek and I think we're going to make some fundamentally different kinds of decisions about how we do stuff.

Q8. Oh I just think it would have a really broad based appeal. I think it would be used by the planning organizations at every level -- local municipalities, the county and the state. I think it would be a great resource for a business and industry that was considering locating in the area or even continuing or expanding operations in the area. I honestly can't imagine where it wouldn't be valuable. I think it would be valuable to our homeowner’s organization. I just think it would be really positive to have...you're talking about a study that would bring together all these different perspectives and data. [yes. we're looking at this phase a baseline research] I think the concepts [healthy river and sustainable economic development] have been quite divergent but I don't think the reality is near as divergent. You know, it's been kind of convenient to compartmentalize it and label people as an environmentalist or an industrialist but, in fact, those are much more intertwined ... and the decisions of one impact the other and I think we're coming to a better place. I think it's the right time, frankly. Maybe we weren't ready and didn't need to have this conversation ten or twenty years ago but I think it's very timely right now. People are willing to have the conversation and if there is good data and there's broad based collection of information and perspectives on it, then I think that would serve us all well.

Q9. Well, I've heard, I guess Dan Campbell more than anyone else, refer to the river as our 'gift of green' and I like that concept. I think it's, the river, is the greatest natural resource that we have here and I think, when I say it's the greatest, that's out of a whole lot of others that are just incredibly good and solid but our forest service, our open space, the wildlife and the recreational opportunities all of those are incredibly enhanced by the river. So, to me the river is what makes this such a cool place. And, I don't go down and sit on the banks every day or even once a month and I ...so it's something that's just kind of inherent. It's part of what we take for granted living here. I think when we're looking at sustainable economic development we probably have to get to a place where we quit taking it for granted and take whatever steps we have to ensure that we're all being good stewards of it whether or not you live along the banks or go put your line in the water or launch a kayak or any of that. I think it still is just really essential to what makes the Verde Valley a great place to live. [role of stewardship; how it's manifested in people] I think that it's a combination of your upbringing and your education and then your experiences over your lifetime. So, there could be someone who is only ten years old who has been raised or exposed to a mindset that has a much stronger alliance to natural elements than maybe somebody who is 60 or 70 years old but who has only recently moved or retired to an area where they thought much about their natural environment. So, I think it's a continuum and you can get on board with it on any place in your personal or professional development. I think that it's kind of on the higher order of things that when you're able to meet your other most basic needs, you can maybe give more thought and time and energy to being a good steward of the natural resources, but, at the same time, anybody and everybody should be conscious about not polluting or, whether that's the most basic kind of littering or, anything that's actively or consciously destructive to the environment, would be a failure to steward. Literally anything you do about the base level is a step in the right direction. I think it needs to be nurtured and fostered. I think there should be leadership activities in the community that are high profile and encourage people to get out and experience that -- be part of something positive that maybe improves an area. I think we have some good examples of that right now and hopefully just more, over time. The ones that I've participated in, they're actually really fun. It's really a positive thing to get out and do something that is of and for the purpose of improving the riparian environment or protecting it. I've encouraged other people to do that and shared it with others who might be doing it for the first time. I've never met anybody who didn't enjoy it once they got out there. You can give one or two hours or you can give a whole days' worth of work or you can become part of one of the organizations where you're a regular contributor on the administrative or public policy side. So, I think you can do it in a lot of different ways and it's important for people to understand that there is that whole range of opportunities. You don't have to be a policy wonk or you don't have to be willing to put on your leather gloves and get your biggest loppers and go cut down tamarisk or something. I think there should be a huge continuum of opportunities that people encouraged to participate in. [Repository might include] A volunteer bank. It could even be part of the whole working vacation or ecotourism thing where ...right now there is an outflow of that from this country where we will go someplace else and choose to do good works in a particular environment for social or environmental reasons but there is no reason why we can't be doing that right here in our own back yard or encouraging our visitors to engage that way too instead of just purely a recreational kayak or canoe trip down the river there could be working vacations. And those are really...people pay to do that. I love that concept. I just think we have this ... this area is an incredible gem within the state and the whole southwest and we can use that to our advantage. We can have fun with it and do really good work at the same time - hard work.

General comments: [targeted $5m] I would have you buy as much land as you could, I guess prioritizing with the most sensitive or delicate areas of the river and preserve it in perpetuity. Set aside whatever you needed to do maintain its health. And, I would want that in a way that allowed and encouraged

public access to it to the greatest extent possible so I don't know what that formula would be for how much you'd spend buying land and how much you'd set aside for maintenance and preservation, but I think the more people who had a chance to experience it in its natural state, I think you can't help but then care about it. You internalize that when you've experienced it. And, a lot of people that have lived for a long time in this area, we know all these really amazingly cool spots on the river and we know how to get to them and we know where'll they'll take us or how many hours it will take in a kayak or canoe to get to another place or walking, and we know also the areas that have been used harshly or are at risk. If you've come in here with $5m today, that is absolutely what I would want you to do -- acquire some of it in a way that it would be a public..ensure that it was a public treasure and a resource. I suppose if I was more evolved in the scientific sense maybe I would have wanted those resources allocated to a study for what is happening at the headwaters or something, but from where I sit right here at the confluence of Clear Creek and the Verde River, the thing that is just front and center for me is to make sure that we have large swatches of it that are natural and accessible.

[concerns, excites about study] I would have a concern that there truly is a wide range of perspectives. Have you chosen to go, for instance, and interview someone who is running a junk yard along the river banks...someone that might have a couple hundred car bodies out there with all their batteries and engine fluids and so on and that is their business and their economic enterprise and it's valuable to them and they insist on maintaining it and expanding it. So, are you talking to those people too? Because I think it's ... I think there's a tendency to talk to people or to gather information from sources that might be friendly or help shape the outcome in the way that suits some purpose, I don't know what you...and I think to really be valid then I hope you're talking to those people who are running junk yard on the river and mining operations. So, I guess that would be. [what junk yards?] That, you know, that's really tough because it becomes a neighborhood issue and I've taken some action over the years through the Arizona Department of Environmental Quality which is really, really one of the few resources we have that will take enforcement action. I don't ...I'm not entirely comfortable with using that approach, but I don't know what other mechanisms we have. The social pressure hasn't been such, or, for that matter, the economic pressure. Again, if you had your $5m I think you could easily buy out junk yards, one of the worst offenders, and I'd love to see you do that because actually I would rather see it managed through that economic mechanism than an authoritative one. I would wish that were an alternative. I'm just glad you're doing it. I'm looking forward to the results and if you run up against a wall there for reaching interests that might be really, really different than what you might have known about or reached out to, I'd be glad to make some recommendations there. I hope you get a really good well-rounded perspective from the up-river communities as far as your study area takes you.

Interviewee: Bob BurnsideInterviewer: Jane WhitmireDate: 1-26-11

Q1. Gut feeling is that I do not know whether it's the state or the federal government not allowing us to make it become healthy and to maintain its being healthy. I see many places where the river has changed its flow based upon trees growing up and the leaves and the debris catches items and therefore it moves the stream one way or the other. If we could main a clear path you would have actually a better system -- that's what I'm thinking. Does that make sense?

Q2. We, or I -- we the general public -- educating people, Jane, sometimes is stuff so you do not imply that they are stupid. Does that make sense? So, if I said, well, let's educate them, that they need -

when they go down fishing or camping they don't leave their trash lay there - that would be a stupid act - but if they go down and enjoy it and pick up their trash and they don't trump some of the sand bars, they throw rocks, they destroy habitat -- oh, look at this, look at this bird nest and pull it down to look at it, that would be very important to help. Why we need to keep it the way it is to some factor. Does that make sense? [how could it happen -- target that education] How could you educate? I don't think the education so much on that part is the children -- it's more of the adults taking items down and wanting to show their kids. I don't know how to answer that one. It's like the beaver dam. You go down behind Black Bridge there is six tall trees about 7" around. They are laying on the ground -- the beavers chewed them in two - they've fallen over -- true story. So, if they would take the kids down and show them what the beavers are doing, they would learn from that. But, also, if they took them down there and tore the dam apart that wouldn't be good either -- and throw rock at some of these herons. I don't like that. I've seen that and it's not right. If they would probably stop laying the carp on the banks, that's really not a good thing either. They catch them and they just throw them on the banks. If they don't want to take them home and eat them then turn them loose. Now, as far as the crawdad, our little Thomas, you know Thomas and all the kids, and, in fact, I'm trying to remember the old plumber's name that lives behind Babe's Roundup - I'll have to ask Suzie his name, he came over and taught Thomas and three other school kids how to catch crawdads because now the crawdads are into our canal banks and our canal banks are getting wider and wider and wider and we're losing a lot of water because of the amount of crawdad and the holes and the trees that are growing. I guess show respect, as your mother and father would have told you to start with. That's the best I could tell you on that one.

Q3. Economic Development activities -- you mean trying to make money off of it -- economic is money, so development means that something's in progress. If you'll remember, what was it last year or two years ago, we had a river rafting place on Main street. Now it is thank you latte-taughty coffee shop - that didn't work. I have no idea why it didn't work. I do know that a lot of people go down by the river. They get in atBblack Bridge and get out at White Bridge. The dog and I, Blitz, we were down at Beasley Flats - first time I had ever seen a group of rafting peoples -- actually big balloon rafts and kayaks and one turned and went around upside down. That is quite an adventure. I do know there are activities going on. The tube deal didn't make it - probably for lack of interest. I do know that with the Chamber, state parks, there is a lot of advertisement telling the people about our Verde River. I do think in the town of Camp Verde, though, Jane, we do not have enough access to the Verde River. At Black Bridge, off the record though, it is probably going to be replaced, you know that. It is so old. They are having some issues with that. We'll address that issue another day. The Rezonico Park, with the use of volunteer help, have cleaned the area to go from the Library, the Park and down to the Verde River. There are picnic tables and people are really using that area. We also own a piece of property in Ft. Verde Caves. The very last, what is that fellers' name -- when you make the turn you will see an old fence up that says "No Trespassing." The town actually owns that piece of property and that was supposed to be a park or something and I don't know...but that could be an access down to the Verde River. We have White Bridge which is used tremendously and I don't remember -- you might remember - how many acres or lots do we acquire in the Verde Lakes when that major flood came through that is in Dan Campbell with the Nature Conservative [Conservancy] and we can talk about this later, is that in Camp Verde, people own to the center of the Verde River. He was unaware of that. Now, the question is, the center of the river at what particular time. Same problem we're having in CA and the CO river -- because it's moving. I'm thinking...he was unaware that people actually own to the center of the river. I'm sorry, I'm getting of track here.

Q4. I just think we addressed quite a few. You've got tubing, you've got fishing you can watch the beavers, birds, you can enjoy the mosquitos, the walk in the park -- whatever your mind desires. You

can walk down there - what is the word when you're walking and your mind is silent just enjoy and everything is out of the box. It's like a guy -- a guy's mind is in one box at a time, women have 40 boxes. So, when you're going down the river, you can enjoy that scenario in itself.

Q5. You want my honest opinion? I think we're doing something wrong, Jane, and I don't have an answer. I cannot answer that because I don't know. And, the reason why I say we're doing something wrong -- Camp Verde has been here for many, many years. The soldier used it, the farmers used it, our chambers have used it, state parks have used it, the federal government is using it and has it got us? I mean, the thousands, and I could say millions of dollars in thirty years spent on trying to promote the Verde River or the essence of "look at this; it's beautiful; come and see it." They will have millions of people looking at ruins at Montezuma Castle and drive by the Verde River and never stay. So, I do not have an answer, but we're doing must not be working correctly.

Q6. That's a misleading question. Who is not important? You see. I read that -- who are important potential supports? Everybody is a potential supporter -- not just -- I am Salt River Project so therefore I am a potential supporter. I'm in disagreement with the question. I have to tell you. All people are potential supporters; some are a little more bodacious than others. Who would be potential? Let me tell you. The sanitary district had, at one time, not the ducks and beyond -- the duck group -- Ducks Unlimited. In Cottonwood I went many times to Quail Unlimited dinner -- those people are very potential supporters I would think because that is what is there. Kids, high schools - if they would take the kids out -- and that goes back to the state and federal government - and, there again, I'm on a soapbox. I have pushed training and teaching kids since you've known me be it plumbing, electrical, mechanic, whatever. The problem is, the state laws are saying you cannot take them out there to get hands-on because of the insurance, they might get hurt. What happens - so therefore you do nothing. If we could take more kids down to enjoy -- let them spend the night -- like the girl scouts and boys scouts -- they are all potential supporters. That's how we learn - we teach our kids.

Q7. Who did I just mention - those same agencies, the federal government, the state government. They are stopping us from...It's like, I get the impression that any and all government, "I'm here to help you; I can do it better than you can." Really...no. Not at all times. If we can get them to back off. It's like our state parks. We gave them the park because we couldn't afford it. Now, we can't afford it. O.K, give it back to us. You still have pride. If you'll allow the people to show their pride in ownership. But, if you constantly put rules on them they will deliberately, absolutely defy you. You didn't catch me on that one - that's the mentality. There is a lot of them. I think it's more -- you could actually clarify everyone of them and put this same thing -- property rights, therefore you've got government rules and regulations; ditch companies, you've got shareholders and rules and regulations; the water company -- all of them goes to rules and regulations so you do not have ownership of something.

Q8. I've never thought of it. Maybe somebody would come in and say "I want to do a canoeing trip." I know we have canoeing trips so they're already here. Bird watchers -- I know they're around. I don't know who else. I suppose anybody that if you clean it up you could not walk from Point A to Point B in a lot of areas because you can't get from here to there. But, you will use the path that a lot of people have used and it's still there and the trash is still there. So, it will get worse and worse. If we could kind of extend it; I don't know. I can't answer that one. That's an interesting...what I'm afraid of on something like that is. If you do the study and find out that the Verde River has a lot of potential, and we already know what's there, it's like common sense is there, it's like just as soon as you name the baby you create a problem. What is the government laws and regulations going to pick up and say, "we can back this and get more money." They are the ones that we wouldn't want using this.

Q9. We've already done that. We’re doing something wrong; what are we not doing. Are we looking at the wrong people? Here's an interesting concept. People keep saying, Camp Verde has got to be a destination place for tourism and I keep saying, "why?" Camp Verde has been established, and I don't really think it's going to change - we are working people. Cottonwood is the hub of all types of businesses. Do we have enough education in this town? When I was at NACOG once. we had a guy come in from Maricopa, Maricopa County, that gave a presentation very proud of a computer program that you can buy and put all of your data into your town and all these people all over the world can come in and see the types of education, work force, how far people drive, etc. and I asked the fellow -- he was continually talking what is attainable -- and I asked, and I gotta tell you, I believe I stopped him and didn't mean to -- I asked him whether anybody has ever done a survey on the job education that is attained. What is this town attained -- meaning, and I had to explain to him -- if we come to Camp Verde; say if we have 17 more college classes and we can do solar, the surgical deal and if we had more attainable knowledge that's pretty good. What is attained now - do we know that. Do we know the education of all of our farmers in this town; do we know how plumbers, electricians, what is the labor force that is here now that we can provide. If we want more, add that to the attainable list. What I'm trying to say is, So, Camp Verde, can we have all these big major things. I don't think we will ever have it. I believe the mentality and our culture is that we want to be peaceful and left alone. We want to work; we want to eat. And, we're not going to bother you until you step in our front yard and knock our mailbox over. Then, I'll get in your face. Peace between all of us so we can all live. So if we start now saying the Verde River -- they go to the Castle, they don't come here -- there's nothing here. It is not a destination place so what are we doing wrong? I don't know. So, do we need to say the Verde River is for the farmers, the hunters, the wildlife, agriculture -- not so much tourism. I always get myself in trouble for that -- but I don't know. Sustainable is not a word. How does the Verde river fit into agri-tourism? Two months out of the year the ditches are down for cleaning. It's something for me to ponder. That's what I like about this. [what is the 'region'] I know people in Sedona are very proud of their stuff. It's way off base, but it would be interesting to know why Dry Beaver Creek is dry -- it runs through Jackson Flats. Remember, we have a letter in on that with the forest service for 'first right of refusal.' For that 600 acres. We're always talking with the YAN -- they were here first, and I've always believed that and get myself into trouble. They show a lot of respect for all of the stuff...Verde River, land, etc.

Interviewee: Cody CanningInterviewer: Jane WhitmireDate: 1-30-11Q1. You know, I wouldn't pretend to know the complete ecological answer to that question. But, from a perspective of growing up as a resident there, from that perspective the factors influencing the health of the system would be pollution, especially the pollution that can come from things like day use. And, growing up when I was hanging out by the river, we went to the river all summer long, it was the place to cool off. So, you know, typical stuff. Your bottles, cars...I remember when I was a kid finding basically an oil, I don't even know, a disposal where local residents was dumping his motor oil a little way from the water. Who knows how long that had been going on or how old that was. What is this? We used to call it the tar pit. It's how the users of the river take care of that and that includes, as well, are you being responsible with how you're using it in terms of fishing. I'm certain there are regulations -- I'm not sure what there are around daily cap rates but I'm sure that must be something like that. Also, in the discussion in the Verde Independent, what are our water rights and, from what I understand, Phoenix basically has a lot of claim over that. It's always been curious to me why that is. I've always felt like, as a

Verde Valley resident, other Verde Valley residents, including me, have never really understood the complexities of that dynamic political, historical discussion. Most Verde Valley residents, honest to God, I don't think have engaged with this a lot -- this question, and I think they're thinking in terms of how I've just explained myself - pollution, how are we using it [the river] as a resource. We feel a little blue when it's down -- we like it when it's up, but not too far up. I think I would include, even though I'm vague on it, a significant factor what is the prior first-rights to it. It's very concerning because from what I understand, there are projections from several decades the river itself may be dry. As a Verde Valley resident, I find that sort of news to be horrifying -- it's a horrifying thing from an ecological standpoint and environmental standpoint but also from a cultural standpoint. It's the story of the Southwest. You've heard of "Anasazi in America" haven't you? I love that book. I think it should be required reading.

Q2. First rights. I think that's a premier thing because I think that most Verde Valley residents think it will always be there and don't consider the idea that this river that goes through their neighborhood or town isn't exactly theirs. I think another thing that we need to understand is -- most Verde Valley residents look at the Verde River as a recreation hub and don't necessarily connect to it as a part of the larger ecosystem and I've always felt there should be a lot more education programs devoted to teaching kids -- it's an amazing area -- Tavasci Marsh -- I guess it's part of the system, I think it would be helpful for Verde Valley residents to have a deeper ecological understanding of what's going on which, I think, would naturally lead to an environmental appreciation which may generate interest in terms of who owns this water. I don't think most southwestern residents know anything about first-rights or anything really about water politics. I certainly know woefully little. That kind of embarrassing. I feel like I should know more.

Q3. I'm unaware.

Q4. I know that in years past there have been small rafting companies. Actually, I did a river trip when I was in 8th grade. I remember dragging the boat a lot more than sitting in the boat. That was a wild time. That's a tourism thing. I guess there is stuff like that. I don't know, I always am leery about the idea of ecotourism because it usually leads to an exploitation of that resource and it usually, I think when you turn an environmental place into a place of business, then that place exists for the paying customers and not for the people who live there already. And, that's problematic. I think if it's ecotourism for the preservation of the place, but again that dicey, it's a very delicate circumstance. So, I believe that is a potential economic development opportunity. I'm trying to think of traditional economic development opportunities, it's not big enough to dam it for hydrolo-electricity. I remember a couple of years ago, and Doug probably played a large role in it, they were going to dredge the bottom of the river and pull up a bunch of mud. The tailings which are around Tuzigoot, they wanted to build subdivisions out there but you had to have X-amount of feet over the tailings. And, they were going to dredge the river to do that. But, you know what, some people would consider that an economic development opportunity and I don't really see it that way. I also think that in terms of...I would consider an economic development opportunity something like, thinking back to the 30s and the civilian conservation corp, a public works project, whether it's state or federal or county, revitalizing some of those areas -- cleaning up some of the beach front, oh my gosh, paying biologists to come down there and investigate and assess what's going on -- where the health is, where the optimal health is, where we need to do to get back there. I would consider those things economic development opportunities. Certainly there are a lot of biologists who graduate from NAU every year who have got nowhere to go.

Q5. I think I would consider information and facts...I would consider some of that cultural and sociological information that you can pull from the Yavapai Apache Tribe. I think that having a good discussion on having a connection between sustainable economic development and the health of a place, especially when we are talking about indigenous people, is interacting with the long-time stakeholders because they have a cultural memory of what this place is all about. Not only that, they have a right to maintain their historical connection and I think including them in the conversation about what they foresee to be a healthy future - and they're interested in economic development too - they're not sloughs -- I think that's a piece of available information. The history of the Verde Valley, by the way, has just an enormous amount of information on sustainable economic development and the Verde River system. So, we have a lot of information in terms of what doesn't work, what can work and also, if we're thinking in terms of what a sort of unpredictable river system it's been even in my life -- I guess it's unpredictable if you're on the ground, it's probably no unpredictable if you're to take a long scientific point of view. There's got to be USGS information on that. State Parks...I think Dead Horse has got to have tons of stuff. I think that a question like that is difficult to answer because for so long in the Verde Valley we've been so remiss in terms of taking care of our natural resources and I can give you the name of the man -- Howie Usher -- he's a teacher at Mingus and he's a biology guy. He used to do stuff at NAU all the time. He is a river guide in the summers. He's a wonderful guy. He, for years, taught, and probably still does, a stream ecology class and he used to spend a lot of time down at the Verde River and that is what Howie does well. So, people like that -- I'm trying to think of local scientists, he's part of a group of local scientists that would be able to tell you what the river can and can't handle. I also think that we should be...I don't understand why we don't have more emphasis on sustainable agriculture down there too using the river. I've never understood why I'm getting food from the CSA from Glendale. It's bizarre because 80 years ago that's what the Verde Valley did. I actually was talking with this guy, I guess it was a year ago, and he said that it actually used to be miserable in the Verde Valley because there was so much irrigation that it created a haze all the time -- way humid. I thought, well, that doesn't sound so pleasant. We used to have some of the best apples in the country until the smelter came in and wiped everything out. I guess you could consult Phelps Dodge. They would probably have some information. We have a lot of archeological history. John Reid, the head ranger at Tuzigoot. Both the guys are real good. You drop my name and they will totally help you out. He's a good man. John talks real slow but....

Q6. I feel like Cottonwood and Parks and Rec I think would be potential stakeholders. The Town of Clarkdale -- across the board, as long as Doug is there. I'm trying to think, when I was a kid -- Verde River Days. It's not like one single body that puts on the whole thing. I would say that any of the agriculturists who are down there -- Cornville school. A lot of teachers at these schools, Cottonwood-Oak Creek school district, are people who have lived there for a long time and have done a lot of science projects with this and have really advanced .... the Burnett family -- they live right next to where the old Mount Hope used to be -- do you remember that? They live in that old big house there. The reason I bring that up is that she was involved in a community education thing and promoting the health of this river. When you bring the schools in, you can actually begin to culturally shift the community. That's huge and then you actually, just like, exponentially manufacture supporters.

Q7. Property rights. People. Historic Uses. Changing Cultural values -- you've got some serious, serious barriers because the culture is that no one gives a dam about the river. Do you remember Toxic Tommy Mulcare? Case in point. And, the Mulcares are an old family. They've lived here for a long time. (cannot decipher name), Monginis, these are all ranching families and they don't, I don't think they care a whole lot, and they still pull a lot of weight in that community. And, we know, and this is a state phenomenon and a national phenomenon, that environmentalism at the expense of quick, immediate economic

growth -- forget about it. And, unfortunately, quick economic growth is what towns like as well. Toxic Tommy Mulcare - and that guy gets elected to the school board! And, his brother is on there right now. The Grosettas, that's an old family. They're all on my old school's school board. I would say that beyond all the stuff you have mentioned here I would say that it's the old culture, it's the old mentality of "this is ours and ours to use" that's going to be the hardest sale. A lot of the people in the Verde Valley aren't old Verde Valleans anymore. When I was growing up, it was just filling in. But, it wasn't ...the names of (unclear), Mongini and Grosetta..they don't carry as much weight as they used to carry. So, maybe I'm a throw-back. One of the most difficult things about living in the Verde Valley is that you have an elderly community that doesn't want...if it comes down to spending community dollars to protect something, they are not going to do it. Even if it's like a school bond -- I can't tell you how many years we've seen school bonds fail, fail, fail.... It's really embarrassing, but it's a reality,

Q8. I think that venture capitalists in the field of agricultural development should be very interested in this. Especially people who are interested in local agriculture. I think that's where the Verde Valley is headed. I think that ecotourism groups would be interested. I think that all the townships should be interested. I also am hoping that townships and organizations that live in areas where you have the same complex set of variables as we do in the Verde Valley will see some commonality with what you've done and get look to this and say...o.k., we're a desert community, we've got a river, it's in (unclear) shape, what are the models that you're pushing forward. I really feel like this is more...if you'd done this ten years ago it would be this successful.

Q9. I would head back to the idea of science education. If you watched the Barack Obama speech, he hammered the science education big time. He loves science education and it's great. One of the major deficits of science education, is science education isn't applied enough. You've got the Verde River. If you go to Cottonwood Middle School, I think you could walk to the river in 20 minutes. But, they do not. Clarkdale, you could drive down there -- load up a bus and be at the nearest thing like in 5 minutes, maybe 3 minutes. We're talking no time. So, I think we need to change the culture -- getting back to the focus is that educators have a responsibility to use the Verde River as a laboratory but also plug in conservation ethic. And, you've got time to do that, you really do. You just need to find the energy and enthusiasm. That would be helpful. It would also be helpful - and I don't want to trash on the Verde Independent. It really writes about crap. They don't write about substantive issues. This is interesting. This is important and interesting and it needs to get some appropriate media coverage. We're small time/town folk, really, in our hearts, and when we...I think if there were a sense that people outside of the Verde Valley cared about the Verde River, it's weird, but if we had an environmentalist group that had some clout, a Sierra Club or something like that that had some interest in the Verde River, I think we'd be so star-struck that we would gravitate to the idea. Also, you've got to connect to the outlets where the Verde Valleans are every day -- Walmart, Safeway, Bashas...what are those entities doing in terms of promoting a healthy river, talking about it, bringing it into focus whether its...my goodness, we have cancer this and homeless kids that, why can't we promote at Safeway once a month -- do you want to give a dollar to the Verde. That's where Verde Valleans are every day. I can't believe it but even my dad subscribes to the Verde Independent, The Bugle or The Journal. That's how I would answer the question in terms of bringing into focus. My friend Jeff, here, does this stuff too [teacher in Flag]. You can build your whole biology class on it [the Verde River]. That's what Howie did for years. My wife's mother and father both taught at Cornville for their whole careers. And, that's all Marie used to do is go down and write poetry by the river. She was good at that and it seems like it wouldn't make that much of a difference, but it connects kids to the place. [Rob Hamerle - father-in-law] He taught for 20+ plus years and has been there since 1974. I think it is going to be as well received as any study about environmentalism on the Verde River is going to be received. It's the culture of the Verde Valley. They

want to get things done; they want to get things moving. Sustainable development is sometimes a tough sell. I almost think you need to come up with a whole new word [than sustainable]. It's so, we know, you and I have a meaning attached to it. But, so does Monsanto. Monsanto uses 'sustainable' all the time; it's true. I think Doug Von Gausig in Clarkdale is a visionary from where he is at in terms of local politics and I see nothing but positive marks coming out of Clarkdale. So, if I had my finger on the pulse at Clarkdale, that thing is going to be good. As soon as I found out about it, I emailed Doug -- do you need somebody to work for you to do this? I will do this job... It could be a model for the rest of the Southwest.

Any concerns? I don't want someone else to take all the water; and I don't want the river to dry up. It's the last free-flowing river in Arizona...it's too sad.

Interviewee: Kelly CathcartInterviewer: Jane WhitmireDate: 1-26-11

Q1. I think one of the biggest factors is our growth because back in the day we didn't have a lot of pavement and blacktop, water seemed to soak into the soils and into the mountains, that type of thing. Now, I think we're seeing a lot of runoff from those areas such as parking lots and roads into the river. I think that some contaminants are getting into the river from that -- the oils and the solvents from the blacktop and concrete going into the river system. I don't know this, but I would assume it's affecting the wildlife in the river, or the ecosystem in the river.

Q2. One of the biggest things that we probably understand better is the irrigation systems. We have diversion dams along the Verde River that divert water out of the water into irrigation systems. I consider that the greenbelt or the irrigated ground along the river is the greenbelt. I don't think we lose a lot of water from that because once a piece of property is irrigated the water percolates down through the soil and it does go back to the river. I think if the general population understood irrigation a little better, I think they would learn that we're not wasting water. I think there are a lot more efficient ways to irrigate out there than flood irrigation or someone irrigating their lawn 10X a week, which is unnecessary. But, I think if you really educated the people they would understand that...o.k. we're probably losing more water to evaporation from open ditches vs. irrigating a crop or something like that - a pasture. I talk to a ton of people. What I implemented back in 2006 was an integrated drip irrigation system using total drip irrigation and plastic mulch which: 1) on drip irrigation you're only irrigating the root zone of the crop and you're not irrigating the bottoms of the furrows, the tops of the furrows, end-rows, that type of thing, so you use every drop in the root zone. The plastic culture, or the plastic mulch, covers the rows and what that does is keep the moisture levels high so you're not using as much water and it's also a weed barrier so you're not watering weeds. This was all new and fandango and people said it wouldn't work, but it does work, and we cut down our water use by about 60%. Growing organic -- I'm not certified but the plastic mulch is an organic practice. But, then again, I'm not certified so I can say that I was growing pesticide-free.

Q3. From an economic standpoint, there has been a group of us that is influenced economically directly from the river. We're using the water out of the river to irrigate specialty crops or small plots of vegetables, meaning 2-3 acre plots, and we have developed a farmers' market system, a CSA system, and a direct grower-to-consumer market here. In 2009, just in northern Arizona, that equated to about $2.2m in gross sales of produce as well as lamb and beef and this was small operations - a derivative

from these ag lands which have to be irrigated from the river system -- Oak Creek, the Verde River, the whole water system. The other part of the economic standpoint is that in this economy where people have lost jobs or they have been furloughed or cut back to part time, this has allowed people that own these lands to work the lands and create their own job or create their own business. On the insurance side, because I specialize in farms and ranches, that type of thing, we've seen an influx of about 120% in policies from small growers from being, not so much the big corporate farms of 600-800 acres, but down to the people that are working 5 acres or 7 acres and they are deriving about $12,000/acre per year off of that. The other thing to look at -- other crops -- is pecans and eggs. We have several pecan growers that are on the river and we also have three pretty large egg producers. So, when we look at the whole slow food movement or local food movement, it's including eggs and nuts and honey, produce, lamb, beef, plus the fiber from the lamb and goats.

Q4. What I am seeing personally, and from a business standpoint, is the Verde Valley primarily Camp Verde, becoming the Mecca of local foods for Arizona. In 2009, we supplied 13 restaurants in Flagstaff with produce as well as 2 of The New Frontier Stores, Mount Hope and a couple of other restaurants in Sedona and Winslow. So, from the growth of an economic standpoint, the need is there. We have that, but we don't have enough growers yet to meet the need. I think the industry is attracting them -- media is a big thing. You mentioned the Taco Bells scare. A lot of people don't want to eat that any more. They realize they have to spend their money on food so they are seeking out better for the same dollar. So, I see that as a lot of people saying, "O.k., maybe I don't want to farm 15 acres of vegetables, but I have an acre here so I will farm this and have enough for me and my family. But, on the residual, or left-over, I will sell that. If you go into your local grocery stores like Fry’s or Safeway and you walk into the produce section, every one of them says Farmers Market. Well, that's a play on words. Obviously, it's not a Farmers Market and this stuff came from Sinaloa, Mexico. But people are now being aware of where there food is coming from and they want to eat local from an economic point... [Chain stores using local food] The biggest barrier is quantity and availability. For example, here in Cottonwood, you can buy a watermelon at Safeway 365 days a year. Well, the truth is that watermelons are only grown in this region from July 1 to Oct. 1 so that's our window of opportunity for melons. So, when you try to compete with the Fry’s and the Safeways of the world, their buying power is all over the world. I've talked and I've met with a lot of those produce managers, and they are saying we'd love to have your stuff, but we need it twelve months out of the year, which is impossible. So, I think it's educating the public back to, you know, melon season is actually from here to here. Don't think you're going to get a watermelon in January. You should be eating oranges in January. [beef, lamb and chickens - butchering] There is one left in Yavapai County that is a certified processing, meat-packing house. It's in Chino Valley and it's called Perkinsville Meat. They are a federal inspected meat packing plant. They do goat, lamb, beef and wild game. They are certified so as a grower of beef, I can take an animal over there and have it processed and then I can sell that beef directly to the consumer because it was processed in a federal facility. There is one poultry packing plant also in Chino Valley and I believe, as of now, they are certified. If not, they will be certified within the next 30 days. They will be doing the pigs and the chickens. They do have a smoke house and that type of thing.

Q5. Probably be aware, or maybe educate the people...let me see, I don't think a lot of people take into consideration the economic development from the Verde River. They don't say, "Well, here is the Verde River and here is food." They don't equate those two -- if we don't have the water, we won't have the food. I think it's educating the public, educating the citizen that the health of this river is feeding you. So, I think that's a big point there. They just don't realize that's the start of the food chain, basically, is the water. I would probably start education in the school systems -- public and private. I would also start educating the users of the water; educating builders and municipalities as far as runoff goes. I

know that this area has grown leaps and bounds since I was a kid, so there was not a lot of drainage studies, there was not a lot of runoff studies and now, for example, you know, we have say 200 acres under pavement or blacktop whereas 25 years ago we didn't. That water is running somewhere. I think by pure education to just about everybody because they just don't understand. [what kind of outreach] The other outreach I would do would be community education probably through Prescott and Yavapai Colleges for workshops on irrigation practices, chemical practices, why it's important not to water a lawn five days out of the week because a lot of people, and I'm not picking on anybody, but they'll throw UN32 or a nitrogen-based fertilizer, water it every other day for 10 days...that nitrogen is going right into your water. Nitrogen will kill crustaceans in the river, such as your crawdads, that type of thing. What nitrogen does -- it takes the oxygen out of the water so it will kill fish. Because of how the ditch systems work that irrigated land is along the water and so that water is leaching right back into the river with nitrates, sulfates, etc. in addition to lots of other things. And, there are other ways to water -- there is gray water, you know I'm an advocate of gray water. There are no really detergents out there that are harmful any more. Sure, you don't let some stuff be gray water, but others are very good and it does help to recharge the rivers and streams. I think the biggest thing is we got the irrigation companies on board to educate their water users, the municipalities and in the school, that we need to keep our river healthy to support our agriculture, which then supports our economic development in sustainable agriculture. In this area, there is really no xeriscape vs. the traditional Bermuda lawn. I think as a land owner, I would not want to be told if I have to have xeriscape or Bermuda lawn but, as an option, because me being born and raised here, I would probably tell you that 90% of my friends, neighbors and family wouldn't even have a clue what xeriscape was. I don't think they understand that there are other options out there or a good mix.

Q6. Probably the biggest potential supporters between the river and economic development would be your ditch companies, your growers and/or your water users. I think if the ditch companies were a little more advanced, or thought outside of the box, and saw the environmental positives of putting a lot of these open ditches in pipelines so we wouldn't be losing a lot of water to additional vegetation or maybe adversary types of vegetation or evaporations or transpirations, we would see a lot more water in the river, plus the liabilities, obviously, of an open ditch. I think if we started with them -- to start those practices which have been around for 25 years, we would see a huge, huge impact on more water in the river, especially during the summer and more constant water to your growers or water users.

Q7. I could almost say "ditto." And, therein lays the challenge. It's just that. The ditches for 200 years, or however long, and it's worked this way for a 100 years, why not let it work the way it's been working but... I do not sit on any of the ditch boards but I have worked for the Verde Ditch company back when I was in college. I did work with Mr. Maybery under the adjudication for the Eureka Ditch and the Verde Ditch back when I was still in college and needed a job.

Q8. I think because of the ecology that's represented by studies like this, I think that growers would use it; I think that interns, such as at Prescott College - they have an ecology department that is all about healthy waters and sustainable agriculture and how do we have a balance of both; I think that those would be two big users. From a grower's standpoint, I would use it because in developing ag lands, your cost per acre going into it, I would want some type of guarantee that the water would be available for years 5-15, or something like that, because of the return on investment in agricultural lands. I think municipalities should use it and learn from it that we need to take care of this; it's a viable system; that is why this community is here is because of the river.

Q9. I have lots of ideas. From the analytical side, the economic side, I see it growing, no pun intended, from the local food or that economic side. We have vineyards in the area that are being irrigated right off of the river water. Doing market studies and that type of thing, it's a growing industry. I think over the next 15 years we will see the Verde Valley become a mini-Napa because of the ability to grow grapes and make wine here -- a huge, huge industry. I had the figures on what it is now; what it could be; what the projections are - that's just one little small piece of the pie is the wine. [how much water is used by an average vineyard...] The best, probably, information place for water use on grapes, is UC Davis. UC Davis is awesome. I hate to say that because I'm a UofA grad, but that's the way it is. I have some statistics on grapes here. The acre foot on grapes is about 2 acre foot on grapes vs. if you were to grow cotton, for example -- that's not a really good comparison, but its 6 acre feet. Sweet corn, or corn for grain, is about 4 acre feet. Tomatoes are about 3-4 acre feet per year if you're going to grow them on a calendar basis. Obviously, we can't because of our freeze dates. But, grapes, for example, 2 acre feet...that's not a lot of water. A lot of the vineyards have put in drip irrigation to minimize their water use because a lot of that water has to be filtered. So, they are running irrigation water through sand media filters and then running it through a drip system. So, they want to keep those costs down. Filter systems run on electricity, ergo expense. There is no salt removal; we don't have salt problems here. The one problem, iffy, one or two places in the Verde, is boron in the water. That's a natural occurring element but it really doesn't affect a lot of crops with the exception of green beans. So, when we look at an industry like grapes or the wine, that's what entices a lot of tourism. They want to come do the wine tour. So, when we add into that farmers' markets, you know we have one in Camp Verde, Cottonwood and Sedona, people then start saying, "wow, I can come up here and I can do the wine tour, I can stay in the local motel, tomorrow morning I'm going to get up and go to the farmers' market and buy this wonderful produce before I head back to the valley. So, when you look at it as the health of the Verde River, it's a lot more than that to a grower or to a community because if you have tourism, we need tourism, they are going to come up, buy wine, stay in the motel, see the Fort, eat at a local restaurant, they're going to buy the produce and the meats and the cheeses from the farmers' market, so it's a whole cycle. The river affects everybody in the community because of the economic growth and development. We have a lot of irrigated ag lands here that are not in production. People water them and mow them. You can't eat grass. But, it's a lot bigger than just a produce grower or a lamb grower. It's a diverse industry. This movement is across the nation; it's not just in Arizona or New Mexico. It's everywhere. You go to Washington, you go to Oregon, Georgia, Florida, New Jersey, New York...and I've been all over the country, California...and then, when you go to Europe, this is status-quo, this is how people live. There are farms along the river and on Tuesdays you go to the market and you buy what you're going to have that week. The restaurateurs are really getting involved in our markets here in northern Arizona whereas 15 years ago when I did this, restaurateurs and grocery stores were not major players. Now they are major players. The chefs are coming to the markets an hour before they open to buy their meats and their produce and their cheeses and eggs. I'll use some restaurants in Flagstaff...huge advocates of local grown. And these restaurants you've seen in Arizona Highways. I'll use the Turquoise Room, for example, in Winslow. He seeks out, daily, local produce to serve there in his restaurant, which is a 5-Star restaurant at La Posada. He goes to great lengths to advertise for the growers; to have pictures of his growers; brochures from the farms and a real advocate of that. The Cottage Place, for example, is the same thing. Cafe Express. There's is just tons of them up there. I can't even think of all the names right now. Dahl and DeLuca and Casina Rustica...many, many mornings meeting Lisa at the farm at 6:00 in the morning. [cheese for sale - regulations] It is horrific -- the regulation. They just passed another law Jan. 1 that no raw milk sales would be allowed in the state of Arizona under this new USDA bill. Their regulations are so harsh that we have one cheese producer left in the state. What they do is buy their milk local from a local dairy, they have a certified kitchen that they produce their cheeses in. Their licensing and inspections to produce 1,000 pounds of cheese a year

is economically almost impossible to get over that hurdle. Not to get on my soapbox, so to speak, but we have policed ourselves so much as far as food products goes, that it is almost ridiculous. Some of their cheeses -- they are legal; they are totally above-board, the enzymes they are using are way over...but it's almost ridiculous.

[interaction with river] I enjoy the river. I grew up on the river. I'm a desert rat by nature - born here. I spend a lot of time around the Beasley Flat area. I enjoy it from that standpoint - from the serenity of the river. I think a lot of people, from a recreational standpoint, enjoy tours or people that for-profit take groups of people down the river, and smelling it and listening to it. I enjoy the wildlife there. To me, that's like going home, so to speak, because that's where I was born and raised.

Interviewee: Chris CoderInterviewer: Jane WhitmireDate: 1-26-11

Q1. Having not thought about it in detail in those terms, I'd have to say off the top of my head, the health of the Verde River system, meaning that the river system if flowing and that there is enough clean water for everybody to use, I would guess that it is over-use of ground water, misuse of the resource upstream, wherever you are in the system upstream, over-pumping and then, of course, that geometric change in the less water there is and the more pollutants and the more bad things in the system, you get this exponential increase in the loss of quality of the water as you lose the quantity of water. So, I think it's simply overuse of the system.

Q2. Well, I think from a tribal perspective, what they need to understand better is, and I think this is a broad problem in the United States, that people want less government and more services. I think the tribal perspective on the river is that water is life and, we use a quote around here from an elderly lady that died in the 1940s, that "as long as the river flows, life will be good." I think there is a misunderstanding amongst the non-native people in the valley, or the dominant culture, as we like to call it, that it's not a renewable resource -- that it's a resource that will be there in perpetuity regardless of people have done to it. So you have this percent of the population out there, like yourself, some elected officials and people I would consider environmentalists or green, that understand this quite well and we see the fight going on. But, there is a lack of understand and that might have to do with the lack of the desire to understand that this is a limited resource and that people had better wake up. If it involves using less water or using the water more smartly, they are going to be without this resource and it's going to be an economic disaster for the valley regardless of their political affiliation or if they think that the world is warming up or not. Because it is a local problem for everybody.

Q3. I couldn't think of anything specific and even I could I wouldn't probably state who those people would be. I think whoever they are know and it is over-development, too much development, and, once again, sucking water out of the ground that needs to get back into the system through the subflow or through surface runoff. But, the river and its system might be sacrificed at the expense of constant and perpetual growth by people that don't understand that we can't have constant and perpetual growth that's going to use more water than we've got. Everybody, that's the catch-22 with this whole problem,. Everybody wants development, everybody wants new jobs in a smart way, probably, but if we have economic growth that isn't well thought out, and sacrifices the river, the economy of the whole Verde Valley, everybody in it regardless of their political affiliation or their heritage, is going to suffer because the economy is going to go down the toilet. If this river dries up and becomes like the Santa Cruz or the San Pedro, then everybody is going to see that this was the economic engine of the valley and you'll

have 45,000 empty houses that were just built that don't have water coming out of the faucet. To me it's an obvious situation, but...maybe less so to people who think that their right to pump water ad nauseum out of the ground supersedes the macroeconomic picture of the valley.

Q4. It's another catch phrase. I'm guessing that ecotourism, which is probably over-blown -- I don't think ecotourists are going to come here, there's no elephants and giant waterfalls, but it is a very nice, pleasant system. And, it is that way because of the water in the river and the tributaries that feed into the river -- Beaver Creek, Oak Creek and maybe more to the point, Fossil Creek. I think within the state you have a lot of people that need this kind of recreation -- people that are in the Valley of the Sun. They want to get out of the city and what do they want to see when they get out of the city -- is either snow, frozen water or water and the Verde Valley is, of course, the closest option for that. And, I should say that I'm not an economic person. I'm not an economic forecaster, I'm an archaeologist so most of the things I see are based on either cultural experience from the past -- from where we've seen hydrological cultures go down the toilet because of misuse of water resources. You can look at this happening three centuries ago, ten centuries ago, and all the way back into the bronze age. Afghanistan three thousand years ago was a very vibrant, agrarian nation with flowing rivers and irrigation systems and they blew it. Look at what Afghanistan looks like today. It's almost a one-to-one correlation. And, then afterwards, everybody says, "why didn't somebody do something?" These people that don't like government intervention and don't want the governments interceding in their life and, you know, as soon as the river dries up they are going to be scrambling and saying, "Why didn't somebody let us know; why didn't the government do something."

Q5. Well, that's pretty easy. The people that are doing the developing need to either be better informed and they need to be pushing an agenda that's long-term and not short-sighted. So, whoever these people are that are doing development -- whether that's a housing addition of 5,000 new houses, or soft-industry, or a Walmart, they are the people that need to be putting this message out -- not the Nation. The Nation has lived here for time immemorial. This wasn't a problem until people that use too much water showed up and there has been no mitigation of that use of the water in the last century. This is a crisis situation that everybody has seen coming and only a few people have deemed it important enough to think about, including yourself, that's why you're here. [recovery of NA lands through acquisition and what the Nation will do with those lands] Sure, well of course any development the Nation does, we do link to cultural values. However, we are all in the same stew pot economically. You know the Indians don't use beads any more. The Nation doesn't barter with beads and deer skins, we're in a monetary, macroeconomic system of financial exchange. Having said that, the best thing that could happen to the Verde River system, and this won't happen, is if the federal government gave all of the federal lands back to the Nation because it would be mostly fallow. The Yavapai Apache Nation has been pushed into a very small corner of the planet. The administration has control of in trust lands, less than 2500 acres in the valley which is just a drop in the bucket and 2000 of those acres has just come back into the tribe’s acquisition mostly by repurchasing lands they lost just in the last decade or two. So, as an example, the Nation has the casino as an economic development engine which is good for the whole gravel and a sand and gravel operation across the river which isn't nearly as big as other operations in the valley. But, a lot of the effort and money that's spent in the sand and gravel operation goes back to -- the top soil is saved and then it's put back where it was to begin with to use as agricultural and horticultural lands in the future. Growth here is well thought out and it's moving ahead at a pace much slower than the rest of the valley on several fronts.

Q6. Well, I guess the obvious answer would be the local governments. If the local governments aren't behind this then I think that taking steps to decrease ground water pumping and increase a more

considerate use of the lands, I guess that's imperative. But, you know you look on the maps, if you look at a land jurisdiction map of the area, there is so much federal land without the feds being involved, US Fish and Wildlife Service is critical to the health and the sustainability of the river so they need to jump in with both feet. The forest service, which is often reticent, although they are land managers, that's their mandate to manage the land for the benefit of the nation's people to some extent, they need to jump in and participate in this more actively. The park service has, you know because they are from Interior, like Fish and Wildlife Service, they have, I think, they're empowered to, although they don't have a big land base, but I think psychologically because of the people that come to the local national park units -- Montezuma Castle, Montezuma Well, Tuzigoot, that they need to step up and be as, or more, involved than they are already. This is a federal resource because it's a waterway as much as it is a state, local and tribal resource. It's the Ben Franklin thing -- we're all in this together and we're going to hang together or separately and if you... I imagine the people that are involved with this stuff, a lot of them that I do know, are aware of what happened in Australia in the last five years with those programs and they could see that coming over there for two generations and nobody chose to do anything about it until they got what, an Australian scientist that we've talked to said...it became a crisis. It was too late to act intelligently, so they had to act reactively -- you know changed their constitution, of course that's not going to happen here because of the way privacy rights are. People are wacked out about the Constitution; people that consider, as I do, the Constitution as a sacred document, you know, they are the first people that want to change it when there is something they don't like. So, the tribe isn't advocating that but short of people getting smart and doing the wise thing, it's going to take federal government intervention to save the river. And with money being the way it is, and rightfully so, we can't, I don't think, count on that kind of intervention so people are going to have get smart locally and take this issue into our own hands and, what do the military people say, "own this problem."

Q7. Well, I guess, I'm not pointing fingers, but the issue, the biggest problem with ..the potential barrier is ignorance. If people were informed about the dire consequences of a dry river or seasonally flowing river, they might act more rationally and not as much in their self-interest. So, I would guess ignorance and greed are the two biggest barriers to fixing the problem -- and Arizona state law needs to be updated. It's antiquated. If you look at the ditch system, which, I believe that the ditch companies are moving in the right direction. That is an old system that needs to be revamped and looked at. Aside from the laws, which, of course, those are a product of, let's say you looked at how this country has changed and grown technologically and in many other areas since 1870, and then you look at the ditch systems in the valley, and they are like the Iron Age. I mean, would you want to go a dentist in 1870? That's how antiquated these systems are. So, I'd rather go to a dentist now rather than going to a dentist in 1870 and having a tooth knocked out with a hammer after a half pint of whiskey. These things need to be brought up to modern times like everything else. Changing laws is tricky business because people have vested interests, vested rights and so, I don't know if it is an insurmountable problem, but it's definitely a problem. You know, you can't say that this is anybody's fault; or we should have done this or should have done that. It's hard. Once systems become entrenched, it's hard to pivot and none of us like change. We don't like it when the hot water heater goes out or the tire gets flat on the car or your kids get the measles. It's a hassle. And, this is one of those things. It's hard to adjust quickly. That's how tires go down -- not adjusting quickly enough.

Q8. My educated guess would be the same people that need to be informed the most -- local governments, federal agencies, the Nation, of course would like to see it.

Q9. I don't have any ideas about that off the top of my head that would sound more than trite or that they just came off the top of my head. I could think about that and possibly send you some written

comments but I'm not even sure I want to make it the focal point for regional economic development. The repercussions might be worse than the cure. I guess the ideal situation would be that I'd like to have lots of people come here that are well thought out and want to see the water and wade in it and take pictures and go away after they spend a whole bunch of money at the gas stations, hotels and restaurants and outfitting stores and things like that. That would be the ideal thing. We could use the southeastern Utah wilderness coalition motto, "send money don't come."

General comments: education, understanding and prevention of crisis -- how would it happen? I guess that boils down to education and getting people involved. I think there has been a big effort locally to get people out to do clean up days and get trash out of the river. You know, the forest service has done things for kids and...Hopefully all the work they are doing with kids in the grade schools and the junior high affects these kids in some way and puts a seed and a bug in their head that the river doesn't dry up before you get a generation of educated, concerned people in mass instead of just a 3-7% of people that are concerned.

[specific programs] I believe that Mary Onteveros(?) from the forest service runs a program that happens in the spring and then there is one I believe they do, possibly in the fall, on wildlife and how it's important for everybody as a resource to protect the river. Mary does that and the tribe is involved with some things doing clean-ups along the river and the tribal unity project which is the youth, Native American program, they do things. We're going to be involved in some riparian restoration in the coming year or two - tamarisk removal, removal of invasive species. Of course, that doesn't have a lot to do with ground water pumping or it doesn't make any water. And so, it's a small step. You know, over-grazing has always been a problem. You denude the landscape and get more runoff which is a short-term solution. But, long-term, it's bad because you get more sediment in the system and the system clogs up. You get changes in vegetation. If you go down along the river now, it's almost like a series of ponds a lot of the time and when the velocity changes it changes the gradient...or the gradient changes, the velocity changes and it changes the dynamic for young fish, invertebrates, micro-biotic stuff and the whole system changes. That's the bad thing. We've always been bad at that in America...if you can't see it, it's not a problem but the problems will start at the bottom of the change and work their way up and before you realize there is a crisis it's been brewing up to a level for some unknown amount of time and already impacting... I grew up right on the banks of the Mississippi River in Illinois my whole formative period and there is 2.2 million cubic feet cfs flowing down the river past my Grandma's house every second. You could lose 50 times the amount of water that's in the Verde River out of that river and you wouldn't even notice it. So, you know, you have these economies of scale on the landscape. So, out here, in the West these things we call rivers are -- this threshold of being in peril is much more fragile. You can look, just get any federal quad map out here on the plateau, and if you go to every spring that's on that map, before 1880 or so, those springs were, if not gushing seasonally, were year round. But you go to them now, and most of them were done in by the 1890s or 1920 from over-use because of the drop in surface water. They were dynamited; ranchers dynamited them, the feds dynamited them, and...periodic draughts and that is a cycling thing out here in the west. It's been that way for a long time -- boom and bust with water. But, tribal needs before the conquest -- before 1870 or 80, could be met even in the driest times. If you were in an agrarian culture -- people they call Sinaguan, people they call Anasazi, were indeed, dependent on surface water. They didn't have the means of going 6-8 feet below the surface. So, when a draught came they were at risk and that's evident in the record -- the boom and boost of the Anasazi, Sinaguan and Hohokam cultures. Surface water, seasonal water and irrigation -- that might be the most potent regional example of how -- even these people that were really good farmers in the desert were at risk from minor fluctuations in seasonal rainfall and snowpack and they

are gone because of ....nothing that's a misuse, just a misfortune of climate and local meteorological changes.

[interact personally w/river] I personally interact with it vicariously because working for the nation we have an office here. We rely on the water -- I drink it, I use the bathroom, I... So, personally, it's just a matter of survival. Interacting with it in other ways, having grown up on a river and being kind of an outdoor person, I enjoy the river just for its esthetics and also that, in the Apache way and the Yavapai way, as the older folks will say, "It's not just for us" meaning people, it's for all of the citizens of the valley -- javelinas, mice, catfish, cattails, water beetles, hawks, the whole thing so it's more of a holistic ... knowing that it's there is a good thing. As far as personally interacting with it, I'm not an avid fisherman and plus I live in Flagstaff and have teenagers so I'm not frolicking in the river constantly. We (the Nation) monitor the river; this isn't top secret information. We have gauges and we do testing weekly on the quality of the water and we have stations that we monitor invertebrate wildlife at a couple of the springs. The Nation is very concerned about the health of the river. We only have so much clout and, of course... The information is kept internal and others probably wouldn't be allowed to have it at this point -- it's proprietary. I think lots of people are doing that but we're doing it for reasons that I can't really talk about.

Interviewee: Ann EverettInterviewer: Jane WhitmireDate: 2-1-11

Q1. I think the population. I've seen, when I first moved here, there was, if I'm not mistaken and I might be off a little, but it's pretty close - like 120 shareholders on the ditch -- the Verde Ditch -- 18 miles of ditch. When Glen passed away, he checked the ditch that morning, I remember, and there was over 600 using the same water freeway, I guess you'd call it, and yet, broken down that many more times. So, farming and just individual homes are two completely different uses of the water. When it started getting broken up, then it expanded that much and that's people -- influx of people.

Q2. I really couldn't answer that. Everybody knows it's there; and it's a very big blessing to us. I think they need to value it more. Just an example, I always thought when a home was sold, or a ranch, that the person should go in and have a six-hour course on irrigation, how to take care of the water that they were buying, in effect, from the river. People don't know how -- they still don't know how, I guess. I think that would be one of the things they could do - it would be a small thing that would be fairly local. But, just off the top of my head, I think that would help. It's very, very important and I don't think they realize it -- most of them don't, anyway.

Q3. Well, I sold my ranch to a man who is now making it a tree farm. Economically-wise, he's making a lot more money than we made, as far as that goes. We were ranching with cattle and horses and then we planted about 30 acres for alfalfa for the livestock and sold some but it was just a very minimal, easy...you had to have that to have the animals and the animals had to have the feed to live. It didn't make a lot of money. But, this guy is using every inch and using the water quite well. He's very good, so he's getting a lot more use out of the river, economically, than we did. Nobody measures the water. Bill Cox is his name -- he plants every kind of trees -- commercial planting along the highways, as I understand it, and all of that nursery stock that goes in along the highways. He raises things here that they can't raise in Phoenix. He has another place in Phoenix; so that he can decorate the highways in this area. So, he is using every inch of it.

Q4. Kayaks...I figures they just came up here, got out of their car and went on the river and then got back into their cars and went back to wherever they lived without giving little Camp Verde any help. I don't know if an advertising kiosk would be nice of the town. Then you run into the forest service and the government, and that sort of thing, about advertising, but it would sure help Camp Verde to have some of those people look around at the stores and go to eat lunch and things like that. If they are using the river, they might as well help us out a little bit. Something that I have always wanted to see, because I've seen it in other towns and it's just wonderful, and that's a river walk. I really think that would just be the zinger for Camp Verde -- all the way up to Clarkdale... The ditch has got a lot of right-of-way on their property. It would take somebody a lot younger than me and more engineering conscience, but I really think that would be a wonderful thing for Camp Verde. [ditch board?] No. Glen was the ditch boss so they would have thought a little unpleasant about me if I would try to be on the board. I think the ditch boards would consider a trail. We used to have to go and clear the way and cut the fences that people had put up so they could get through with their equipment and they appreciated that so....it's just local people that run the ditch -- that keep the maintenance on those ditches, and I'm sure it's just because nobody has ever said, "Hey, how would you all feel about this going along the side of your ditch?" They've got it all there anyway.

Q5. I'm not too good on facts. Well, I know there are fish hatcheries, there is things that they do with the water that might be an economic advance for the area. I really haven't thought too much about the promotion of that type of thing, though. [Quester organization programs] None of the programs have been related to the river since I've been in it. Of course, the river is old, so we could consider having one on there or having somebody speak about the river and what...there are a lot of people making plans for trails and that kind of thing, because I worked on some of those committees some years back. But, I really don't know that using it into the economic situation that I've heard of many ideas that would help with that. We bought our property in 1969, so I've been here about 40 years.

Q6. Well, I would think first of all our town council. They would be the supporting part; I don't know that they would develop anything economic but it might work out that they would. I suppose the forest service would be involved. The way that they provide access to the river to people and that kind of thing. That's really not economic development though. That's about all I have to say about that.

Q7. Well, I certainly agree with the property owners rights. That will be the first one that will come up. All of the property along the river is privately owned. And those people think it's their right to fence things off; fence people out; and so it's a hard case scenario to divide property rights is against everybody else's access to the river, that's already been proven. There just aren't many places that you can get to the river which is o.k. as long as we do have some access but you can't go very far south on the river without running into all kinds of fences and things...you can't get through. So, I would think with that your key there... Q 8. The Chamber in being able to know what some of these ideas are and having them available to people who come in and ask, "What are you doing with the river" or whatever. They would be a good choice. Certainly, the forest service. That's probably about it. I don't know if the town... [what civic organization memberships; conversations at those meetings] Well, I think Kiwanis is real interested in any kind of economic development, We always try to get the business people into there because they can not only help with the charitable stuff we do, but they can guide us in a lot of things that are going on and let us know the different information of their companies, or whatever, so it's a kind of back-and-forth thing. I think Kiwanis is one of the best places to meet and greet business people on a little different level than the Chamber, if you know what I mean. We had several programs on the Verde

Valley, not necessarily the river, but it would encompass the river as well. I know we were talking just at the board about helping with the park that they've put down there -- Rezonico Park by the Black Bridge -- in clean-up and that kind of thing. So, it's not exactly economic things but helping the community keep these things nice and going. There is always money that you've got to get from somewhere to maintain that stuff.

Interviewee: Frank GemindenInterviewer: Jane WhitmireDate: 2-17-11

Q1. The number of people. I always say that between here and Cottonwood there is bound to be at least one septic tank that's leaking. And so, it's the number of people and the impact that they have on their surroundings -- not directly walking through it, but contributory from runoff and that sort of thing.

Q2. We are working right now in terms of determining the amount of water that's taken out by the ditches and put back in. I guess that it's a trade off -- directly to the ditch situation, there's a trade-off between water that's taken out of the original channel but then is spread out and increases the size of the riparian zone. I think there is probably 10X, maybe even 100X, due to the irrigation system spreading the water out away from the river and, of course, it all comes back to the river. In a lot of cases, it comes back better and in a lot of cases it comes back worse. The impact on the community of all of that is important, so we do need to have a better understanding of it. I guess that's the primary concern at this point is a better understanding of how the river functions and how our influences affect the functioning of the river. [how does understanding manifest itself] Through newspaper articles and word of mouth. But, we're working right now with some of the folks from The Nature Conservancy and they are coming up with the money to put monitoring devices on the river to see how much...Abe Springer, his studies are contributing a lot of information to the flow, or about the flow and the river through the ditches. We've been working on our ditch to improve efficiency and better educate our users. We've put in underground irrigation which is...I think the two laterals...we cut a day and a half of use time off of the ditch by putting them underground. Safety factors involved in terms of people not falling into the ditch and that sort of thing. This is the Diamond S Ditch. I think all of the other ditches are doing similar things and I think all of them are coalescing and coming together to deal with the questions involving the water use and the questions of downstream users. I made the proposal that the folks downstream need to pay us to irrigate more because we take the water out of the river, purify and bank it and give it to them over time and so I think they really need to pay us to irrigate more land. The reaction -- jaw dropping. I think we need to talk more and more on this. It feels, lots of times, like it's an 'us and them' and I don't think so. I think we're all swinging in the same soup and we're, all of us, have to communicate together and the more communication there is, I think there's a better chance of everybody having satisfactory agreement coming out of it. I think that there this traditionally whisky to drink and water to fight over concept is sort of going away because you can't get out and duke it out on the bank of the ditch any more. And, it's an ample resource. Like I say, we take it, we use it once and we give it back. People upstream have used is once and its....I think the realization is coming that everybody has to work together to make it functional and if anyone is doing something that is truly detrimental, then I think that the rest of the society is going to have to implement some sort of regulation on that. Of course, you hate to see government regulations come in. I'd much rather see some sort of a self-regulating system be developed.

Q3. I don't know about that -- you mean directly in terms of the river or economic activities in the community that affect that river? Both. None right of hand that I can think of. You see increase in the wineries and vineyard but they use such a small amount of water that I don't think they have that much of an impact on the river itself. But, they have an impact on the economy and the increased tourist attraction that they bring. But, I can't think of anything right off hand that's directly related to the river. [pecan processing facility] That is a remote possibility and falls within the category of exploring any and all alternatives. I don't really want to elaborate on that. It's way too premature to talk about that one too much but maybe this will explain it better. The new folks who are coming in, The Nature Conservancy, the people who are very much concerned with the river and their desires to meddle into traditional the traditional use of the river...at first it was considered a fantasy and then a joke and now I think that a lot of the people who have used the river for a long time in various ways are realizing that they have to deal with this and one of the best ways to deal with this is with data. All of these efforts to collect data have to be worked on jointly. The data has to be shared and the results have to be interpreted and accepted as the reality that they are. I think that's a major change that I see happening. People are more willing to accept this possibility, or this exploration of potential use.

Q4. A whole lot of them. I don't see the development of the river so much as people getting out in the river and using it recreationally -- boating it and fishing it and that sort of thing. There will be some of that but I don't see that much -- it's a very visible but it's a real limited impact on the river. I see it more as the, to me the primary economic impact of the river is the fact that it's there, the greenbelt that goes down through here and what it does to enhance our community, property values, quality of life and everything like that. I think the one thing we can do, everybody says well, "Let's not change Camp Verde; let's keep it the way it is." Well, that's not going to happen, obviously. But, everything we do that will enhance the river and the agricultural community, the agricultural aspect of it, to maintain ... I always felt like they should not have allowed the irrigated land to be divided up into the smaller tracts. It should have been kept in larger parcels so as they would have some economic potential. To me the sad thing is the fact that it is so expensive here to get involved with land that young people, or old people, cannot buy a piece of land and do something agricultural on it and pay for it. It's too expensive; there's not enough money in the agriculture. [break-even point for making money on irrigated land w/production] I don't there is any kind of, short of growing marijuana at the prices that they have today, I don't think there's any agricultural product that you can put on there that will begin to pay for the investment and the property to tell you the truth. Everything contributes and helps but none of it...you have to have ... You know what, when your money is sitting in the bank and making .01% interest, then there is some sort of a increased return there from some sort of agricultural production, but it is very, very difficult to make any money at it.

Q5. This is one I think about a lot. How do you disseminate; how do you educate; how do you share the ideas. There are so many new groups that are popping up now -- I can't come up with the names of all of them. But, The Nature Conservancy; there is a Verde nutrition group that did this round table; even down to like the farmers' market groups and the CSAs, that sort of thing. There is a lot of word-of-mouth communication that goes around all of that. The newspapers are doing a whole lot of work in terms of getting the word out and I think people underestimate the number of people who do get information from that little local newspaper. Involvement that people want to do with some of the groups, I think is only good. There needs to be a lot more sharing of information back and forth between, or among the groups to ... We've got 13 ditches up and down the river and I think all of us need to have one representative and we need to come together periodically and have some sort of an email communication system back and forth so that we can all share information. It has to be -- it can't be one ditch against one ditch, it has to be this valley against the rest of the world. I think there has

been real traditional head-in-the-sand attitude that we're here, we've been here a long time and nobody can mess with us to a realization that change is coming and the more information and the more communication we have the better our outcome is going to be. [culmination of work into action] That would be a desirable goal. But, I think that's where all the groups need to get together and try to get their goals oriented to get some sort of focus where they are working... There is a lot of real hodgepodge and real diversity of desired outcomes and if there were more of a combined, or a shared information or plan that was specific goal-oriented, who knows, maybe it would be better, maybe it wouldn't. But, that would be a more possible instead of everybody shooting for their own. [specific projects or goal priorities] I don't really know what is going to be the best thing and I don't if anybody can really have enough of an over-view and have enough foresight into it to know what is going to be the best. There are so many circumstances that could come into it. I guess, in a democracy, the shared, common, consensus or majority feeling for whatever the goals are, of what they will end up being, personally, I would like to see just a more conservative approach in that it's a very nice system and humanity's impact upon it is rather devastating and anything we can do that will mitigate the bad effects of having this many people living alongside the stream of water is advantageous.

Q6. All the citizens and people who have a particular economic interest -- your irrigators, and then, of course, your government people. Trying to deal with the bureaucracy and, just like we were talking about the lady that has got the ranch and the fact that she will have to fence her animals in and be liable for the damage...that is a given that any time she has that economic unit that she has to be responsible for it. But, her attempts to deal with the legislature, the legislation which puts restrictions upon the small producer and health department restrictions, government restrictions about what you can sell - the fact that there is this extreme effort to protect the consuming public rather than the consuming public being responsible for their own health and safety. There is a plateau that a small producer can produce and stay under the radar. So, locally - friends and neighbor can avoid restrictions if we do ... Like I'm talking about trying to get some sort of a cooperative -- a processing plant for local grown food. Then, you have to comply with the health department and governmental restrictions and you all of a sudden are in direct competition with the larger corporate food production system. There is no way in the world you can begin to compete with them there -- so far. And so, in many ways we are better off to stay down at that real small level to where we are nothing more than a thorn in the paw rather than a spear in the side. [local food processing in region] This one of the things we talked about at the round table the other night. There is a program where they have given WIC (women, infants and children) coupons to use at the farmers' market. This started a few years ago when I was doing farmers' markets and I would see these ladies come through and they had no idea what they were buying so it was an educational effort and a lot of us worked fairly hard to try and educate them about what they were getting. But most of them would just come up and throw the book of coupons down and say, "Hey, give me some stuff." They didn't really know how to prepare it, what to do with it, but they had and they would use it. And so, there was some advantage to that program and it still continues. But, I tried to talk the other night about this, we're not dealing with an effort to feed the masses. This is a very elitist production system or consuming base. Home grown, local stuff is not a bargain. It is not for the masses; it is very much to an elite group of people who are very concerned with their health or concerned with the quality of what they eat and are willing to pay a premium price for it. [impact; leaning how to grow own food -- experience] I think as much as anything the fact that if it is identified as something special, something good, people will want to emulate it and it will trickle down through and that's probably as much as you can hope for. I always say we've got three generations of kids who've never put a seed in the ground and wouldn't know what to do with it if it did come up. The amount of work that's involved, the lack of convenience is one thing that we talked about Monday. People want their convenience. They want to walk into Bashas, get it going, fix it and get on with their lives. They don't want to spend

time with it. Some people do; some people acquire the enjoyment, they do enjoy...but others would rather pop the top and get back to their TV programs. People talk about the obesity problem that we have in our society and that sort of thing and they blame that on the schools and the production system. I don't agree with that. I think that they are more demand-driven, demand-oriented and people want the sugar, people want their convenience and until those people change...when you see these people carry this extra weight around, the amount of energy that it takes to carry that extra 50 or 100 pounds, in a lot of cases and sometimes a lot more, I don't understand how they have the energy to do that. The same way as I've never understood have people have the energy to burn up alcohol -- or abuse alcohol. I've never understood where they draw that tremendous strength to be able to burn that up. I guess they just do or they don't know any better. But, I attribute all of that to nobody ... nobody makes them put it in their mouth and swallow it. No, it's there and it's there because they are willing to plunk down their money for it. I'm more inclined to attribute it down to personal choice and ... We had two FFA kids at the meeting Monday night and they talked about the things that they wanted to do. I don't know if more kids would want to do it or not. I really don't think so. It's always been a ... it's almost like it's an elite bunch of people who are attuned enough to want to be able to deal with the opportunity of growing things. There is a lady...she is probably in her 70s and close to 80s, and she teaches gardening lessons over in Cottonwood. I'm sorry I don't have her name. But, she said there is a tremendous demand on her for sharing her information and knowledge and people want to know how to do this. People can grow enough...you can grow 50% of your food in flower beds around your house if you wanted to do it. And, not even just for your family. Old Curly across the street used to grow a bed of lettuce every winter and he'd share lettuce every winter around the neighborhood. If everybody had a little specialty thing, like they do when they trade it back and forth or give it back and forth, it doesn't have to be an economic (here's 50 cents for your product exchange), it can be a neighborhood thing to do and very much a community thing to do. And, this is such an incredible community and this is one of the fringe benefits of the irrigation system that I think people really fail to understand. With the irrigation system, you have to talk to your neighbors and you have to communicate with your neighbors. It's one of the most interesting communities I have lived in and I've lived in some rural communities in America and in other countries. The more you go down a base the more communication there is in the neighborhood and in the community and the fact that this water is shared and that people are communicating back and forth about it is a real ice-breaker. One of the best communication systems for, in terms of direct uses of water, is through your irrigation systems. There is that feeling amongst other people in the community who don't irrigate that it's them who benefit from irrigation and it really needs to be made apparent and disseminated to the rest of the community that the irrigation system is vital to the entire community. If the irrigation system were not here and this greenbelt did not exist, it would be an entirely different place. I don't see anything that's going to stop the river from running. I see it more as interest groups that want the water for a particular use at a particular end. I don't really see the river drying up and going away. I may be misinformed. I hadn't even considered that as a possibility - water is always going to run downhill. Now if it quits raining that's another thing. But, I don't... of course, if Prescott starts pumping out from the aquifer and takes it away, that could contribute to that sort of thing and that has happened in a lot of places I know that.

Q7. Examples read for questionnaire -- all those things have their effect and have to be balanced out. I see it more as a balancing out than I do as any kind of a real, how can I put it...It's like a ball is suspended from a string and there are all these different forces. It will move back and forth depending upon how active and how involved, and again that's the consumer of the benefits from the river. If this group of consumers decides they like this better and they plunk more money down, well then the ball will come in their direction. And then, the other entities, if they really want it back, then they are going to have to ante up to keep it in balance but it's a moving situation and I don't...even so far as legislation on the use,

that can change it drastically and swing it way to one side. But, it will drift on back as the rest of the world wakes up and says, "Wait a minute; we want our share back." [example] Let's just say that the traditional use of the water by the ditch companies...that's one of the major issues of the water in the river, and it has been dominant for so long and now that are challenges made to it and that's going to affect it. I don't think it's going to stop people from irrigating, but it may affect the way that we take the water out of the river and the way we use it. [abuses to use of irrigation - regulations by ditch company] It is used in the historical allocation -- that controls the way that it is used. Now, what happens with that water once it goes in the ditch - whether it's used to irrigate a crop or it's used to irrigate a yard, if the agricultural production were compensated in an appropriate way or an appropriate amount for its product, then there would be fewer yards and there would be more agricultural production. But the truth of the matter is that the value of the agricultural production is so limited that people can afford, nibble onto that, and turn it into a yard which is not productive in terms of agricultural production but in terms of increased land values and tax base to the community it may be more productive. It's so involved and it is such a complex structure. It would be very simple for people to take a portion of their yard...it would take such a small area of their yard to produce a significant amount of their produce but until somebody comes up and demonstrates to them in a way that there is some social or economic or cultural advantage to growing their own and eating their own vs. growing and buying it at Bashas or at a farmers' market, wherever, they are not going to do the work that's involved with growing their own food. [cost of production] I'm eating butternut squash every night that I grew last summer that is sitting out there in the garage where storage is no problem whatsoever and for, well what’s packet of seed cost, for a $1.89 I can grow enough squash to feed the two of us in just a little bed alongside the house if I wanted to and it is so simple. Now, what is the value of butternut squash if you buy it at the store now -- probably $1.29/lb or something like that. So, I eat a hundred pounds of squash in a year ...some people don't like it...and it's so good. Again I think that the transparency is there but I don't think people, they just don't ...people just aren't motivated that way. It just isn't important enough to them and for things to get bad enough...I think back to the Depression in the 30s. People survived by what they could grow beside their house in their yards and gardens and they had no choice. It wasn't available to them. They could not afford .. in other words, if it were to the point now where people couldn't afford to go up to Bashas and buy that squash then they would be a lot more interested. But then if things are that bad and you've got it growing in your yard and go off to work, what's going to happen to it when you're gone? Somebody is going to come in a take your squash. Back then there was a granny that lived in the house and she knew how to use the shotgun behind the door to get the varmints -- two and four legged ones -- out of the garden. You know the old vision of the hand coming up and taking the pie off the windowsill -- that was based in reality. If you set your pie on the sill to cool, somebody might come along and take it. So, that's how hard things, how bad things worse. They were desperate. And so, I would rather that we have obesity and people be lazy and eat out of Bashas than have that kind of desperation again. So, that's why I say. It is not a matter of trying to deal with that end of the spectrum. We are dealing with the people who say, "Well, I'm not going to eat that crap. I want good stuff and here is what I'm willing to do. Either I'm willing to pay the premium price or do it myself and have this good." But, that's a very, very small portion of the population. I don't think there is any way that you are going to educate or convince or change that mass of people. Bashas and Walmart exist because people use it. If people didn't use it, they wouldn't exist. When they say they say want to be involved with fresh produce and local produce, and so forth, they are saying we are luring a few more customers into our store and this is our goal. [local restaurants buying local produce] If I had a restaurant, I would not be interested in doing that for the simple reason that it's not economically feasible, there is no consistency in production, there is no consistent quality, there is nothing that you can count on. The supply is not there. There are a few restaurants that base their system on that [elite customers] and they do well with it, but overall I don't see Bashas produce department buying from the

likes of me because my production is not regular. They can't call me up and say we need three cases of something and 'bing' it's there. They cannot efficiently operate by saying, "We had better call Frank and see if he has some pecans this week." But, your customer has to be seasonal and they are very much driven by what they saw on the last TV program or a recipe they saw in a magazine and when they go into a store and want coconut, they want it now. If they say, "Well, coconut is not in season right now, darn..." Somebody complained the other night that they when they go to the farmers' market everybody has tomatoes and potatoes but nothing else...there is no broccoli and no brussel sprouts. Well, in the summer broccoli and brussel sprouts won't grow here. "Well, why not?" And so, I really don't see that happening. That's why I have moved...most of the pecans that you see for sale at Costco and those sorts of things at a tremendous price have been in cold storage for one, two or even three years. They've come out of freezers. The Chinese bought the entire crop -- almost the entire crop from this country for the last two years, put it in containers, took it to China, put it in bags, sent it back and undercut us. I always say there would be very few housewives if American males had to pay the true cost of them.

Q8. I think that all of us who are battling the politicians are vitally concerned with it. I think anybody who has a relevant interest in the water. There are a lot of people that have a passing interest but those of us who use the river for irrigation have a vital interest. The data has to be good and the data has to be relatively correct and uncorrupted and then it has to be accepted by all the parties. But, I think that the only way we are going to muddle on through this mess is by having some real good, hard data come out. [public policy] It can inform it but I don't know how much it will influence it. I have real problems with the political system in terms of the way it "functions." Everywhere. An example I can point to is the subdivision down the road here where Planning and Zoning turned it down and the next thing you know the council said we're going to do that. And, the fact that you don't go in and win a battle and have the thing over with and go on about your life, this drags on forever and then a lawyer comes up with a deal and ...that aspect of the system is so frustrating to me, and I think to the public at large, that people just don't pay any attention to it. [ag land converted to defunct housing subdivision] Well, that currently is interesting. We'll talk about it later on. 250 people showed up. They listened to us and then they didn't show up again for the next meeting and we lost.

Q9. I think the more of a focal point it is the more concern is expressed. Communication to me is never bad and I can almost go so far as to say that it is essential to having anything good happen. But, we really have to pay attention to what is happening. One of the most interesting things that's happening right now is the wineries and the river, even though the water is not necessarily used for the grapes, it is contributory to it in the fact that you have wineries down along the river. It is beautiful. I think that a lot of the economic development that's going to happen - we don't want to bring more industry in and we don't want to bring more retail in, we want to bring in some sort of agriculturally related business that will maintain our beautiful countryside and our wonderful lifestyle but, at the same time, provide jobs for the kids and that sort of thing and that will bring in more people and will push property values up and all that kind of stuff. [jobs ?] I really think that when you go into areas that do have some sort of an agricultural focus, that is attractive to the populace at large and people are willing to come and participate -- that's the way they want their agriculture -- on a recreational basis. So, it's not so much agricultural production; it's recreational agriculture for lack of...and that may not be a bad way of looking at it - or tourist agriculture. Not really producing a product but you're producing the environment that brings people in to see and experience i.e., an Out of Africa experience, except it's agriculture. It's education but it's ... Grandparents bring their grandchildren to the farmers' market to see live vegetables. People I've seen say, "And, Honey, this is the way it was when I was little...this is where ...it doesn't come out of a can...this is what it looks like." It is almost like an Out of Africa

experience for them. It's just incredible and I think that that aspect of agriculture is so much more -- has so much more potential to be economically rewarding than simply growing tomatoes and peddling them. In other words, you have to grow the tomatoes but what is really important is the fact that you're bringing people in for the experience -- for the community, for the sharing, for everything because the 'feel good' experience...the farmers' market every week up in Flagstaff, I haven't been there for a while, but it's more like a carnival every Sunday. It's good -- excellent. It's a community experience and people have a good time. It's a feel-good experience. I would have people who would come the first couple three markets they would load up and then they would come back and say, "Well, I want to get some more, but I've still got stuff in my fridge." But, they are back again for the experience. They are back again because it's the thing to do on their Sunday morning. Maybe we should have a religious -- agricultural religion -- almost like going to church and, in some ways it is spiritual. I think, again, rather than say, "We're going to feed the poor; feed the masses - we're not going to do that." We are providing a cultural experience for people who are inclined, and can't...and it isn't expensive. They can come and have the experience and not spend a lot of money. But, your real...I keep saying farmers' market stuff is not cheap - it's not a bargain - it's going to cost more. There are people who are willing to pay that premium.

[targeted funding for river and econ development] I think just all of the things that we've been talking about.

Interviewee: Tony GioiaInterviewer: Jane WhitmireDate: 2-26-11

Q1. Certainly, human influences to it. As far as the health of the system goes, there are two questions. There is water volume and water quality. And both human and social factors are pivotal in the quality and volume of water. We have a tremendous irrigation system which carries the flows of the river, and spread it throughout the Verde Valley and that plays into both questions -- how much water is left in the main stem for the riparian area and for economic development and for the, of course, the downstream users always question what is being taken out of the river and, as far as quality goes, we are not at all diligent about what flows back into the river or flows into the river for water quality's sake. Our storm drainage is an issue for water quality. Our septic systems, which are the vast amount...more so in the southern part of the valley, but the vast amount in the Verde Valley of sanitary systems are septic and volume of river flow upstream is always a question. Whether upstream be within the Verde Valley or the headwaters or its initial sauces, those being the Big Chino Aquifer and the (unclear) aquifer or the Flagstaff area where Oak Creek starts and part of the aquifer issues that supply Sycamore Creek. Of course, Clear Creek is another story that is more of the Mogollon Rim and the other branch of the Verde even further south. Actually, the Verde River always has to be considered as a basin, not as just the surface water you see confined in the banks of the river. [storm drainage] We are required by EPA, the towns and cities along the Verde River are required to comply with federal standards, but the standards are the typical non-financed mandate, totally unfunded and to start a drainage system and a system which would safeguard the surface flows from these contaminants, is nearly impossible, to cover a huge valley that was not constructed with an initial system. So, that's very difficult for the communities. I happen to have a small example of [individual development responsibility]. I have two circular driveways and they are decomposed granite and I don't park on that very often but visitors do and sometimes we do. The drainage runs off through that on my property and I've created a detention basin so that what runs off from there is filtered with roof runoff that several parts of my roofs go into a

reclamation system, I have rain water detention in barrels, but not all of it is contained. Some of it flushes that detention pond. I have also, besides some of the roof water going into the detention pond to flush it, I have my..it's the backwash from my softening system which also goes into that detention pond. So, the accumulation of those three ingredients, I feel, and the fact that my well is 280' deep, I feel I'm trying to clean the water and give it a chance to percolate back into the ground.

Q2. There is probably a books’ worth of those questions but for one, I would hope public consciousness comes to a point where it understands the history of surface water in the southwest and right now the urgency of that escapes people totally. There is no great understanding of the history. It could be attributed to climate changes; it could be attributed to a number of things...the archeological indicators show that the Anasazi and other ancient cultures who created cities here...the remnants of the cities, any time you leave pavement, you can find, mostly hilltops and in the sides of cliffs, those civilizations all disappeared roughly around the same time. Everything from tree rings to rat middens indicates that it was a lack of water that drove them away. There are no real indications that it was war between cultures nor any great indication that there was pestilence or disease, it was, most likely and it's not conclusive yet, but most likely a lack of water that drove them away from the southwest. They headed north and they headed south. If you don't understand history, you're destined to repeat it. [how do we begin to educate people and the link of history and present day conditions] Well, it's very difficult because most people have their lives to tend to. They have children to deal with, grandchildren to deal with or lack of incomes to deal with. It's not in any way on the forefront of even a small percentage of the populace. If ... the only thing I have seen drive citizens to seek knowledge on a cultural issue like water is an emergency. [do people see water as a cultural issue] No, I don't believe they do. It's mostly considered a commodity and that's the end of it. Either you have it or you don't. Either you legally have it or you don't. I think the history that I know of the Verde Valley has two rude awakenings about water. One was when a couple of decades ago when SRP, it was leaked or confirmed, that SRP was looking to put meters on our private wells. That had everyone's attention and surface water became the issue for quite a while. And, it's still an impression that people hold that it's threatened by downstream users. Oddly enough, they're not as threatened by upstream users that would dry up the commodity and ... As far as the stream goes, as the river goes, we're at the end of the line in Camp Verde. Then there is Phoenix. Once it passes through the Wild and Scenic, then there is Horseshoe and Bartlett, but as far as surface flow goes, Camp Verde should be more concerned than anyone else in the Verde Valley. [outreach efforts and understanding by VRBP] I have just been named chairman of the committee. It was my idea that I brought to the Board of Directors, the steering committee of the Partnership, that we needed to prepare the community for the outcome of the studies and work that we're having done by the USGS. [VRBP and outreach] Any direct questions.. I was explaining why the concept ... Well, my thoughts, which I believe spurred this subcommittee or the outreach committee, my thoughts were the public has seen a number of studies done and information has come out which shows the threats to the water resources, whether it be surface water or ground water and a splash in the newspaper, a conversation for a little while then nothing. Disappeared. So my thought was what we really need to do is create some excitement or anticipation or curiosity or concern before the studies are finished. Every one of these studies that I've been involved with seems to hit the table with a thud. It makes a little noise then it's basically gone. It has no real effect. What I would like to do is have an educational effect. Utilize the work that we're doing to raise the consciousness of the public. Some people aren't concerned and never will be concerned until they turn the faucet and nothing comes out. That's just human nature. But some people, I'd say 20% of the public perhaps, and that's a guess, of course, would really start to pay attention and that's where you have to plant some seeds. We're also, and I'll get to the outreach plans, we're also working with the extension, who is part of our subcommittee, to reach children. Project WET plus the stewardship program. We have members in our outreach committee,

and at our next meeting we're reviewing the presentation that will go to water stewards on Oak Creek, that presentation will help further education. These are people that are already interested. They've signed up for the stewardship program but they will teach other people. They will be going to various meetings and organizations that they are part of to make presentations to them. They will be advisors to anyone that calls them from their community asking questions about water. They will be a little more educated than the average citizen and qualified to answer some of these questions or, at the very least, try and find the right person to answer the question. [out do the studies that VRBP and WAC coordinate?] WAC...the Partnership requested coordination with the WAC. The technical advisory committee of the WAC was not interested in the technical advisory group of the Partnership's request to share information so I'm sorry to say that because of politics, and mainly politics from the other side of the mountain, certainly politics of the other side of the mountain, the WAC is not interested. However, the Partnership, undaunted, we have a very tenacious group. We have taken information, since we are working with USGS as the WAC is, we've taken information that has come out of WAC studies and added it to our scope of studies and comingled that information. It's all science; it's all public information because USGS funds require that. So, we were not able to be funded by any organization or group. We sought out private funding and the Walton Foundation has been most gracious setting some of the, actually the largest movement on all water fronts in the stream of the Verde River, they have funded just about any group I'm involved in has received some funding from the Walton Foundation. I've worked on a Wild and Scenic designation for the Upper Verde River for about 7 years now, from the time I was working on the Wild and Scenic for the Fossil Creek effort, and they've actually given $10,000 to us just so we can continue the work. We have a meeting Friday to review the final draft. We've put that through review of various agencies, forest service and so on, it's all come back. We've updated our document and it's unlike any other Wild and Scenic designation request that I have ever read or heard of. It is a 250+ page document. We have done basically what happens after a designation for Wild and Scenic is a management plan ensues. That management plan is put together mostly by the forest service and various other agencies, wildlife agencies. That management plan is often a stumbling block because there aren't funds nor personnel to get that done which backs up a little further and Congress usually hears about the fact that there is nothing available in budgets to handle the rest of the work. So, they balk at Wild and Scenic designations. We've already done that work. Whether they accept it or not, the work is done and has been scrutinized by the forest service so it's as if the next step is done before...which is amazing. And, unlike any other, Wild and Scenic designations are usually done with a half mile swath of the stream or river, and that whole designation is just an overlay on a map with a half mile from either bank. We have tried to eliminate any of the opposition's reason for opposing this, or we've tried to eliminate any opposition because the ranchers that border the cliffs above the river in the wild and scenic area that we're proposing, the Upper Verde is a cut channel basically. The lands above the Verde are mesas that the cattle industry utilizes for grazing. If the swath cuts through their land, to them that would be more federal regulations that they don't want to deal with. We have actually gone through the difficult task of GIS mapping the ridgelines so as otherwise not to affect the grazing lands in the designation of Wild and Scenic and only request that Wild and Scenic designation be placed on the riparian area and the streambed itself and a bit of two or three tributary areas. There is some science that we need to understand better, but I think we have a very good grasp of the tenuous, the fragile state that our water resources are in. [how/do you see studies culminating?] You know, I said the cultural influence is probably the largest obstacle. I think I need to narrow that down to the political influence is certainly the largest obstacle. It's the most powerful force in making change and no one is willing to dare move towards the commitment that it takes politically to make change. It has happened in other states. [waiting for grassroots to do it] Yes. You're very perceptive. That is what we have been doing. Before the concept of the Outreach Committee we, in what turned out to be Outreach Committee members, which are also mostly the board members from the Partnership -- the workers are

the workers and that's the way it is, we actually put together in the neighborhood of a thousand signatures requesting action from our legislative representatives, our federal legislators, funding for Title II which was what empowered the Partnership...legally it's empowered, it's just not funded. So, the details in Title II gave authority to bring together the partnership. However, it may be empowered but it's never been empowered by funds which led us to find funds through the Walton Foundation and other private funding out of our pockets mostly. But, it was that...the largest obstacle to actually accomplishing a change, creating a change, progressing toward a change is political will. And, the grassroots effort we already started was getting the citizen signatures on a number of letters -- their own letters and petitions and sending that to Congress trying to move our legislators toward supporting this and moving forward the Partnership's effort. After that, after science proves you need to do something before it's too late and it may be getting too late right now, it will be political commitment that will make it happen. The public is the only that's going to change politicians' minds or give them the strength to actually make the moves that need to be made. [educating the public to the river system] People are very hesitant to speak out when it is above their head, the knowledge factor is low or their understanding of the subject matter is low, they rarely ever say anything. [experience with orgs having to do with river system and civic engagement] I'm hoping that the Outreach Committee becomes a conduit for those personal concerns, the actual ... When someone wants knowledge, it's tailored to what they need to know. It's not..there are few people that show up and say "teach me." Most of the time, people are more than inquisitive. They're trying to seek out information on one facet of the subject. [where do they go?] They call me. They look at newspapers when there are articles about it. And Steve Ayers has been great with that. As a matter of fact, one of the things that the Outreach Committee is working on is a primer for kind of Water 101, 102, 103, 107, 112...we would like to go back through his articles and do a few things. We've discussed one particular booklet that could be distributed similar to the booklet that was distributed from Project CENTRL some years ago about the Verde River only this would be an educational book totally geared towards what we've been discussing. We'd also like to take that show on the road and that's just one of the methods we're trying to work with.

Q3. As I understand it, VREDS, your group is probably one and so far the only one I've seen moving forward with the economic development direction. There have been efforts bringing things like canoe challenges to the river are certainly a facet of economic development and they've been very successful. But, those are little splashes in the pan. Birding, the birding folks, have been doing it for years. The Birding Festival is a huge success and it brings great economic development to the river, to the riparian area, to the Verde Valley and we need to do considerably more. I don't have all the economic development ideas. I'm more involved in quantifying and saving the resource than developing the economic facets, but those two would be a great education and bringing the value of our surface waters, water resources, bring that home to another facet of the community -- a more economic concerned facet of the community.

Q4. Well, I don't think we developed ecotourism in any great extent and it is a worldwide economic tool. It even develops investors in markets that are ecologically positive. People choose to invest in economic positive businesses and ventures. Some of my investments I judge partially on their economic sustainability and values. There are many people that do that. [what has kept that from happening here] I am not certain what has kept it from happening. The demographics of the Verde Valley are probably at the root of that. Certainly it would be a guess, but my thought about that at the moment is the vast majority of the people that live in the Verde Valley, a large segment are retired and they are somewhat finished with their more aggressive endeavors in their life. They're not looking to create a new business or a new industry. There is just not the drive to bolster the economy because their

personal lives..they are not in that segment of their lives, they've already done what they were about to do for their life and they are the retired segment. That doesn't mean there aren't retired people that would be vital to the effort or are the effort, it just means that, in my view... Well, the economy is poor in this rural area. There is not a burgeoning economy that creates entrepreneurs in the first place. Most entrepreneurs, a larger percentage, are not successful just simply because a rural area is not conducive to that so-called rooftop facet of entrepreneurial success. The more people you have, the more successful a venture likely will be. We are a rural area. We don't, we wouldn't have the kind of commerce because the density is low. Now, tourism to me is in that economy is a wonderful economic vehicle -- for an economy like that, because, as I said with the retired facet of our demographics, it has little effect on that facet of our demographics. It gives the younger portion, those still in the workforce, not necessarily in a career but in a workforce, some availability of jobs and it doesn't have a sustaining negative effect on our surroundings which most of the residents are afraid to see. Given the opportunity to have a large industry take over the Verde Valley, I believe most people would be very much opposed to that because it would change the quality of life and the rural nature of this area. Yet, an economy based on tourism would be far less impactful -- whether right or wrong.

Q5. You know, surface water irrigation leads to the vineyards that have become a new facet of our economy and that's just one thing that can be understood as ecotourism if people are interested in the wine industry and the grape growing industry an ancillary education could easily be how these industries survive. There are wineries that people tour. They get to see updated irrigation processes. They get close to the river and the ditches and any time they are in close proximity or they see it in work, actually the stream working for us and creating our economy is a great opportunity to educate the public [is it happening at the wineries?] You know I have not seen that emphasized much. They make mention of it and tell people how it works, but I don't believe it's been emphasized. My tours of particular wineries have been personal. The owners have given me personal tours so discussion was focused on that because it's my focus. [what do you see when you get out of your car?] It's a great opportunity missed. As a matter of fact, I'm going to make a note of that. That's just one small...there are many things that could be used. Actually, out of our studies for the Wild and Scenic for the Upper Verde, I found out the number of species that travel through the riparian area that's the corridor of the Verde River, it's astounding. It's nearly akin to the Amazon. It is absolutely astounding. I had no idea the tremendous ecosystem. I always knew it was important in the desert, but this is a super-highway for migrating birds and there aren't many links in the southwest for them to go north and south. I think better education about that would help grow the ecotourism birding faction. Now, some people may not think much of that as an economic driver, but I've traveled the country and there is quite a bit of money flowing through that kind of touring. But I'm not at all educated in birding. I have friends who are and with this detention pond that I've told you about I've seen birds that I've never seen before. And, when I describe them to friends, they are rare birds and they are happening on a hill a half mile away from the river or more. In Colorado, in New Mexico, I've seen birding trails that are associated with the highways that take you to the viewing areas and there are different galleries, different venues, there are riparian areas, there are forested areas and they have mapped them out and you can see signs on the highway that keep a birder following the signs to the next birding gallery and I think that's a great economic driver and if I was a birder I'd be following those signs more. I want to make a note of the instructional sign idea. And those birding trails that I was talking about do exactly that. There are interpretive signs as pull-offs and trailheads that are built around the birding idea that give you expectation of what you can see and find or why you may be able to enjoy this area because of...whether it's the riparian area or ... life in the forest.

Q6. First and foremost, I would think the Chamber of Commerce. The individual Chamber of Commerce can further the effort more so than anyone else because they are the advertisers for the area. They speak...They seek out tourists to bring them into the area; give them a reason to bring them here and tourists contact them to find out what we have available here so that's one great connection to grow our economy based on that. However, the people working for the Chambers have to be tuned into that. They have to have an ear to what we can develop that will enhance it. If we have folks that are volunteering to answer the phone and not really understand that we need to make it a better experience, we're not going to move forward on that. What's here is here and this is what you can do. If they can hear with an ear for progress, we can hear what people are looking to do. I don't get to speak to those people but they are a connection to the very people that would create a larger facet of the economy. Other people, of course, are entrepreneurs that happen, or chose, to be involved with the resource. And there are adventure people who are utilizing the river and again the birding people. There are others who I'm not probably thinking of at the moment, but those people can expand the economy more than people who would sit and talk about it. They can actually connect to the people whose money would be spent in ecotourism.

Q7. Two barriers are see are: 1) limited access to the river and the resources that we're talking about to create a draw; and 2) if the resource starts to disappear. If you travel to San Pedro, you will see, and if you look from my understanding -- I have to look at photographs because I did not travel the San Pedro 30 years ago, but there is a vast difference between what I see in pictures and what the San Pedro is right now. There are countless rivers in this state that are washes now that were, at one time, perennial. There may be different reasons that they've gone dry but I'm more concerned about the reasons that ours' may go dry. [how do we graphically display diminishing resource of rivers?] We have, the Wild and Scenic steering committee that I'm a part of, we have a display right now it's, I believe 40' long, in the Prescott Library, and in that display photographs of the streams that have gone dry and scientific data have been posted next to each other showing indications that we're moving in that direction. One of the presentations that the Partnership's Outreach Committee has, one of our members, a geologist, he's working on a second presentation right now which we'll review Friday, but his first presentation that he did a number of presentations for organizations, was about a reach below Camp Verde that data shows dries up. It's between two gauges -- one owned by SRP, upstream is USGS and downstream is SRP, those two gauges show a little stream segment in the worst part of the summer and what we always understood to be the richest part of the resource goes dry. Where all the tributaries come together above it, it still goes dry. That's really a matter of our human uses of it. [positioning of display] The first display is separate from the information from the geologist is giving to other folks, although he is on both committees. But the visuals are what you are asking about and that visual has had its first stop in Prescott. We're looking to where to figure out where to put it in its second spot and my though is April is Water Awareness in Sedona. I would like to put it in the Sedona area. That meeting room in the Sedona Library has a lot of traffic during water awareness month. And, I'd like to have that on the wall there so the folks who visit can go through the interpretation of photographs. [do people in Sedona relate to the Verde River?] We're talking about over 10,000 people so I can't say yes or no. There are people that I deal with from Sedona that certainly understand the connection. And, then there are people that understand there is a connection with Oak Creek and the Verde River which is certainly is a huge contributor to the Verde River and they understand the responsibility of being on that leg of the basin. But, the overall public, when you talk about the Verde River in Sedona, I think there's a sentimental attachment to it because those are the people that are also sympathetic to the natural resources -- the red rocks around them, so they have an understanding of the value of natural resources. I don't think, even though there are a number of people the disassociate themselves from the Verde River because they are physically outside of the Verde Valley, I think, for the

most part, citizens in Sedona recognize the connection. [can the display be replicated] For money. We have spent $2,000-3,000 of the Walton funding to put that together and we could probably duplicate it if there were enough venues. What we're going to do at the end of the month we have to take it out of Prescott and we're moving it so it is, we were just discussing night before last, how we can make it more mobile. There are dozens and dozens of photographs. It's not mounted on one piece. I'd like to see it mounted on one board so that it can be moved. It would be wonderful. I pointed to a couple of venues. I don't see anything viable in Camp Verde but the Cottonwood Parks and Recreation building, I'm not familiar with the building itself but if there's a place there, there is more traffic in that building than there is in Walmart. I would like to see it placed there for a while. [other venues -- why not Walmart, Bashas, Frys] Well, for this type of educational display, there is not enough wall space. Any commercial concerns utilize their wall space for revenue. They don't leave blank walls anywhere. It would work if we could put it in a place like Walmart but you're not going to find a 40' blank wall anywhere in Walmart except maybe on the outside of the building. Well, again, I'll just say that disappearing resources is the greatest barrier. Even the potentially disappearing resource. If you have investors just a scenario which is not actual at the moment, but, if you have investors that are going to build a business around ecotourism to the point of say actually having funds sunk into stationery objects, whether it be a particular type of resort geared towards that near the river or some of the streams, then utilizing that mindset or that business plan geared towards a resource that might start to disappear if the river volume is going to drop and what they're generating their business off of starts to dissipate in one way or the other, the birds or less fishing or whatever they point to for attractions starts to disappear, why would they even consider investing in something like that when it's not a sure thing.

Q8. If you were able to put it in the hands of people who were looking for a niche to invest in, entrepreneurs who are looking to expand their own efforts, if you were able to put that in their hands, it would be helpful to them. Governments, I've not seen our local governments latch on to anything of this nature, I'm sorry to say. [what else is comparable to this?] I have seen - NAU had a study on economic viability of the river, I was not very ... it was just done maybe a year ago [West and Dean, et al] and I was not thrilled with that but it was passed around and never ...I've not heard of any dent that it made in any government organization nor any Chamber of Commerce that really took it to heart and the Chambers, as I've always understood, really should be a driving force. I think we've repeatedly in the Verde Valley had economic development groups try but, in my view, if those groups were in touch, there is a missing link between those groups and the actual phone calls and brochures that go to potential customers. If there was a mating of economic development minds and the people that sat on the phones and licked the stamps that addressed the interests of the tourists themselves, I mean if we had a very viable link between those...not a report not a...but the minds that are behind economic development speak to the people who want to do things and spend their money here, I think that would be a better flow of the effort. There are, we're all attached to the web and there are numbers of people that we wouldn't even know would be interested in it. Putting it out there for those people to grasp to just digest would probably ...

Q9. I think the few ideas that I have come out in our previous conversation. Predictably, and it was predictably, I have found that you must be careful what you wish for. I worked on Fossil Creek from the idea of when the council, the town council I was on heard there was consideration, and mostly pushed by the Yavapai Apache Nation and some environmental groups to close Chiles and Irving Power Plants, and shut the flumes and open up Fossil Creek again -- return it to its riparian natural state. From the moment I heard about that, I was interested. I became involved. I became involved in APSs decision to close it which made economic sense for them and then they utilized that for PR. I became involved in the heritage of the Yavapai Apache Nation and learned what it meant to their history, mostly the

Apaches, and I became interested as someone as an appreciator of an environmental riparian area. So, I worked towards it becoming a reality. I was there for the dedication of the dismantling and had worked up to that point with some of the key figures at APS to make that happen. In that process, started to worry about I started to worry about what was going to happen when it became a stream again, what it would be like and touched on other folks that were thinking the same thing and became involved in a Wild and Scenic designation which would give it a federal designation that would support a management plan, a federal management plan, to make sure somebody was watching over it since it was in forest service stewardship, that was the most logical way to go. And, I became involved in that, not so much in the beginning in the details of making it happen, as understanding that it needed to happen to protect the resource once it was rejuvenated. I was instrumental in the last steps of making it happen in Congress; walked the halls for weeks at a time getting the bills through; doing the Washington thing exchanging one persons' favor to a vote to another persons' favor -- becoming very involved in the culture in Washington to make it happen. Knowing that we would have to deal with its popularity afterwards, Wild and Scenic should be helping that. I'm still involved in the management plan and we did see exactly what we thought would happen. It became very popular; it was abused; it is abused. I was out, I have been out numerous times in cleanups for the area and I'm one of the few fools that ever bring a picker to pick up trash so I end up on toilet paper duty because no one is going to pick that up by hand, and it has been a horrible experience to see what we wanted to bring back to life abused like it is. We think we put things in place to help that but this is just a great example. Because it's remote, there are lawless folks showing up in those areas because they feel they can really enjoy themselves out of the view of most of society. And, they can. And, because there are no funds for law enforcement in the area, nothing serious, the people who can enjoy it for what it is shy away from it because there is a negative factor there. [how could that can be avoided on the river?] The Verde River is a very different animal, so to speak, because for one it's not a distant - for the Verde Valley segment of it which is where commercial development would likely take place, it's private land that it runs through. It's not huge swaths of forest service land that take you hours to get to. It's right here. It's at the end of a number of roads. It's mostly running through personal property. So, the private property is a deterrent. The new fear would be that tourists don't give the appropriate regard to those private property owners in enjoying the natural resource. There are all kinds of things that could go wrong. We just have to be aware of that before hand and be wise. That's the only reason I said be careful what you wish for because things could go awry. [should the river be a focal point?] I do. If you fly over the area at oh somewhere around 3,000' and up and you look at it, it's an emerald swath, a jagged swath, that runs through a brown terrain. It is amazing. There is a favorite place I have to go horseback riding which is Hackberry Mountain Area. I come in from the other side of the river, ford the river and then climb the mountain horseback. When you get to the top, there is a flat, it's geologically I believe it's a volcanic top that's been blown off, but it's flat area with some petroglyphs on it, and it you go to the edge of this flat area, which is a large flat area...you could see it 30 miles away, you go to the edge and look down there is an emerald river down below that is breathtaking. Here the Verde is dirty but there it is emerald green. It is magnificent. How you get ecotourists to that spot is a pretty involved ordeal but... You know, it's public land so it shouldn't be that difficult. You'd probably have to make sure the same measures that we're taking with Fossil Creek in the aftermath happen beforehand to watch over the resource. [who is the better steward -- locals or tourists?] I couldn't decide that because it's an individual... One individual here might be dumping his horse manure into the meander land on his/her property. And, a tourist who comes from Madison, WI may be hiking along the river or kayaking with a garbage bag picking up stuff. It's hard to tell...it's individuals. There are people that live on the river that value it highly. I kayak with one and he's in a number of organizations with me -- him and his wife. And then there are people that push their livestock manure and clippings right into the river right off the edge of their property. So, you can only judge that by the individual. As far as tourists go, people who

are spending money to come enjoy the resource I would think really have a good appreciation of the resource but that depends on the class of tourist. Now, in Fossil Creek, we're talking about tourists enjoying Fossil Creek, but they are tourists who for the most part are local and the Phoenix area. The urban areas because it's had a lot of publicity in the statewide newspapers and magazines. [after they see the damage and condition of the site at Fossil -- return] Again, that depends on the class of tourism.

General comments: [focus money] Well, I would think first you have to formulate what outcome you would like to see. Start from the end and work your way back. What are you driving towards? Well, from my point of view, it would be specific. I would have an interest in furthering ecotourism and education. And, there are a number of ways and far more ways than I would know about that that could be done - among them to quantify the attraction. Understand what people want to see; what they're interested in seeing; identifying what we have that either fits into those categories or outdoes those categories; and then figure out how to promote it and then utilize it for education. And that's my personal bent -- the education portion is the only way that valuable assets like this will continue if people understand them and are willing to fight for them. [education as a component of ecotourism] It always is. As I understand, anyone who goes to Macha Picu (sp?) or I've been in jungles seeking out Mayan ruins, it's to understand better; it's an inquisitive nature; it's a drive to see things I've never seen and I think most people who go to that length, who aren't sitting in front of a big screen to have their entertainment, that doesn't mean I never sit in front of a big screen, but those people put the effort forward, hike miles, endure heat or adverse conditions and, actually more than endure, enjoy those things because of what they're learning from it; what they're seeing during it; and they're feeling very much alive and connected to the rest of our universe. [is there opportunity here for that?] I do, and the place I described to you is one of those rare jewels, emerald jewels, by the way. [concerns, excitement about study] That there is an interest in it. Anything that furthers knowledge of the value of resources I think is vital to all the other work that I've been involved with. Knowledge is important but once you have knowledge, or before that, you have to have people who are committed to what we're discussing -- not just economic development but the resource. My point of view is more the resource and economic development is an important need for our region and our culture. [how do economic forces inform political action and commitment?] That is a question I wrestle with all the time. [what, when the river become an economic engine and health of the river is critically linked] I don't see as sufficient enough. I see it as an integral part. One thing that, and it's been quite a long time since it happened, one thing that helped the efforts I've been involved with for saving the river, is a train ride up the Verde Canyon where local politicians and state politicians, regional politicians were invited to go on this train ride. The ones who were not interested in the subject didn't show up. The ones that were looking for a free tourist train ride showed up. And then, ones like myself who are dedicated to the effort, also showed up. I was a guest -- of course, turned into a speaker during the trip because those giving the trip were looking for resources -- people who would speak about specifics -- the eagle nests, etc. It was all arranged. They have people. I happened to be a resource sitting on the train and became a part of the presentation, but regardless of that, the people that I remember seeing on that trip...it has affected them forever. I haven't seen much come from most of them. But, if I ever refer back to that trip, the glassy eyed look, the dreamy feel for the romance of what they saw on the river comes back and I think they've been inspired. They haven't taken up arms for the cause but I know that it's touched them and that someday may be important when they have to make a decision. [impact of similar experience for kids] It's a wonderful thing. It was funded by environmentalists and Bureau of Rec, oddly enough. Right now, one of our outreach committee members is part of the ag extension and she does third grade training or teaching teachers about Project WET and things of that nature. If the funding was available or the commitment from the railroad was available, I think that would set children on their course, some children, for the rest of their lives. They would understand, appreciate and be thrilled. [has the railroad

been asked to contribute] They've done a few things. I will be asking them in the Wild and Scenic effort if, while I'm lobbying legislators if they will take people. I've also arranged with the kayak company if I can take legislators on the river. [children] I agree. Planting the seed. There is nothing more valuable than planting the seed. [have they been asked to be a major player in that effort] I think you're absolutely right and in our Outreach Committee meeting Friday, I'm going to add this question to the agenda. Thank you. I am enthused to see the interest and I'm excited to see the effort. Economic development based on the natural resource is, I hope, would be a boom to the resource itself and to our local economy. I love seeing the effort and I'm grateful for some of the people behind it and to the Walton Foundation for what they have done and are doing. I'm thrilled and you can quote that.

Interviewee: Steve GoettingInterviewer: Jane WhitmireDate: 2-08-11

Q1. Agricultural runoff. Human waste runoff. There was a time where right by the White Bridge had some issues about the fact that the water treatment was emptying out to the Verde there. I've heard stories of peoples' septic systems not being adequate -- who knows what's running in there. I definitely know there is agricultural runoff. So, my other large concern is the slag heap up in Clarkdale that you can see as the Verde runs past the river changes color. That is so obvious that you'd hope by now that somebody has that on their 'to do' list. I think that's about it. [nonpoint or source] I know there is over-fertilization that's definitely a problem. I know, having gone to pecan school, I know that people put on for pecans and for their lawns, there is gross over-fertilization in general. Wal-Mart does nice job of telling people to buy Scotts Fertilizer and people way over-fertilize their yards and that stuff. As shallow as the water level is, you can definitely see a lot of phosphorous blooms in the water and that's large from ag, fertilizer or animal waste. But I think that's more of a general thing. Some of that can be cured through education - you don't need to fertilize your yard 4X a year.

Q2. How valuable the river is to the economic condition of this valley -- not just for drinking water and irrigation water but of the scenery that it attracts and the whole ambience it creates in the valley. People don't get it and unless you travel around you don't realize that this is a special place - don't ruin it. I've spoken with some people from the Nature Conservancy. You know Phoenix has a 'heat island' effect. I contend that we have a cool island effect and that maybe we can trade carbon credits. We don't realize how rich we are. We are sitting on an island of cool air and we're offsetting Phoenix I would really like to see a study done on the scientific valuation of coolness. I know that when I'm wandering in my yard and the neighbors are watering, I can feel the temperature dropping. What is that doing collectively in this valley? What happens east of here when that cool air is floating toward the White Hills? There have been studies about heat island - is there a cool island effect and is there a cool island effect that we can market? I tell people to come to the cool Island. I can drive down Quarter Horse and watch the temperature drop in my car -- 5 degrees. That is an incredibly valuable asset that people, living here they don't get it how valuable it

is unless you are moving here from Phoenix or Tucson as well. It makes it -- the ambience that makes this place special.

Q3. I think that really the once I'm most aware of is the Nature Conservancy and their purchasing of some of the real estate along the river. I always see myself as being fairly ecologically sensitive. I do have concerns about the volume of land they are purchasing and is that -- they're taking that out -- I still have concerns that if we lose some of the larger ranch pieces do we then lose the ability to maintain an agricultural community here. So, I try to argue with them that these are great ideas -- Shield Ranch -- yes, it wasn't currently under production. Could it have been? Burbacher is one that I have serious concerns about especially because it's on our ditch and if we lose half our agricultural production on our ditch, what's the value of the ditch -- is there a sustainable agricultural component any longer if we lose a couple of these farms? Again, Rocking Hose - really that was a horse ranch but again it's another piece that still was a large ag component. It is going to be a state park someday but that's one of my concerns. I think it's good that they are conserving it and putting the water back in the river. But I also have concerns that they are terminating the water right -- the use of water rights... For Shield Ranch it looks ...the Ranch is going to the Forest Service. The Forest Service is not going to maintain it and maintain the water rights so the thought is that those water rights are going to be transferred back to the river and so there is not going to be ...the water will bypass the Shield Ranch. The river becomes the owner of the water rights. Well, that's fine. The water is just going down to Phoenix. My concern is now that you're not irrigating that land, that water was going back into the water table here and it goes back to my cool island effect. We've now lost 300 acres that the water ...some issues about where the water is going, but if I'm irrigating, that water goes into the water table. Sooner or later it goes back into the river. Some is going to be sucked out by wells but if they are transferring into the river and not irrigating, all they did is speed the flow of water down to Phoenix and we're losing the value of the water up here. That's my concern. [conservation easement for ag production] I think the NC is out of the land buying business for the time being. They are looking at more practical things at this point -- agricultural easement -- which would be a fantastic compromise for that sort of function so I'm encouraging that though I think at his point this is a heck of a time to buy land cheap. They don't have the money and land owners aren't ready to sell cheap either. They are smart enough to know their economic options -- what can we pitch the land owners. Their conservation easements make a lot of sense because they can maintain the agricultural component and the trade off is that if all this land got turned back and it went to park land or forest service -- if it all went back to ...how do we maintain the ag...this goes back to if it's only residential farmers here with one or two acres, their is no economic capability here. We do need some large land use of agriculture to maintain the whole dynamic. There is not going to be enough tractors around here, people to work, you end up having people with just large backyards... so we need to have the core agriculture component which is what worries me about that piece where Hauser's farm is at because the zoning on that is absolutely atrocious. Agricultural zoning is going to be in the new plan. Assuming it's in there and it emphasizes our desire to maintain an agricultural component

-- it's absolutely critical. But, you cannot have a zoning -- having zoning is not the same thing as having economic return because nobody is going to farm anything they can't make money on. One of the things I've been pushing for is PUDs for agriculture. I'm working on a 35 acre ranch in Colorado. Colorado is a little further along on this. You take this whole desire when you build a desire -- you need to leave some ground for open space. That's usually going to be some park land or dog walk areas or playgrounds. Why not have open space as an agricultural value that can be a coop of the subdivision so that you haven't lost the good agricultural land -- the agricultural land doesn't just get turned into grass. You design it so that there is a large block of farmland vs pockets of parks which is nice but gee whiz, all it means is upkeep and no economic return. It adds ambience and keeps water rights sustainable through agricultural uses for the water rights. We'll see what happens to the Hauser piece. Instead of putting high density townhouses all over it, and, yeah, I think the town could use some ultimately, we need to grow. We're not going to sit as an island with 12,000 people. But, if we do put in housing developments, which is ultimately going to happen, that some large portions of it can still maintain an agricultural component that is economically viable and people say that 'hey this is someplace different and I want to live here.'

Q4. Well, clearly there is tourism and river rafting and the offshoots -- vineyards, managed water usage and the agricultural components. Hopefully with the vineyards there is a little more lower impact water usage than growing alfalfa. So there needs to be some sort of mitigation of water drainage. Again, I think tourism and maintaining that ambience -- it's one of the last rivers in the state and we need to protect it.

Q5. That's an interesting question. I think the key one is that this is one of the last free-flowing rivers in the state. We need to promote the fact. I saw a map a few weeks ago which showed at one point -- in the 50s or 60s -- how much free-flowing rivers were in the state and how much that is gone. I think that is one of the great ones to show the evaporation of those green zones that went with that -- that is one of the easier pieces that people can see visually. Hey...we had this once and it shows all of these fingers of green and now there is just one or two little fingers of green and this is one of them. I think that's one that could be shown -- and that's how to show it's a unique place and it's why when we come here. It's also why when we come here we need to protect what we've got.

Q6. The Nature Conservancy is clearly one of them. I think that the town itself here in Camp Verde is important and I think they mostly get it as to 'hey this is important and you need to promote the value of the river in this green zone and still maintain economic development.' But I don't think they are as well educated as they need to be on some of the intricacies of that process. Some of them need to be unelected.

Q7. I think the ditch companies are very, very -- I'm the vice president on the Diamond S Ditch -- it's like walking on glass in some of these meetings when we mention measuring the water. You mention one of the individuals who can be regressive and stubborn - those kind of issues need to be. They are such a big water user and big component of just straight water coming out of the river. Water companies I'm not as concerned

about. I do have concerns with the actual water companies and their use but I think the ditch companies are clearly one of the biggest straight drainers of that water and I see a lot of waste and inefficiencies and to get them to ... But they are so historically stubborn and protective that it's going to take some time to educate them -- the members of the ditch companies as to ' hey, nobody is taking your water rights away' and there is so much overuse of water. When I drive around, people are pouring far more water than they need. They think this is an Amazon. The amount of water they're putting on their lawn is like the Amazon. Well, no, you don't need that much water -- that often and that deep and there should be some efficiencies. Again, this goes back to the agriculture value. They need to be educated about what crops are more appropriate to be grown and that's what actually concerns me about pecans because they are actually very big water hogs and maybe some of us should be taking down our pecan trees and planting grapevines. The grapes, though are not cool. The trees, the volume of water that a tree takes is a great deal more but I also think once the trees are established, they don't need to be watered as much as people are watering them around here. Their root systems are very efficient so a decent orchard doesn't need the volume of water that a lot of people are putting on here. Again, the need for education. A lot of these people don't get it. They don't need to water every week and put 6" of standing water on my yard. Also, so much of that water then requires over-fertilization because they have washed all the nutrients out of the soil by putting so much water on. That water is going into the water table with all those nutrients and it's going down into the water table so they end up over-watering and then being forced to over-fertilize ...and contaminating the river and costing themselves more money and more time because they are having to go out there and irrigate. They don't think that's costing them money, but it's costing their time and they're over-fertilizing because they have to compensate for the fact that there is no nutrients left in the soil. [changing demographics in region- educating newcomers to the region] I think it's nice. The Chamber doesn't have newcomer packets. I think it's nice to do that. On our ditch we started ...when a new person comes in they will be handed -- we want to give them a couple page synopsis.

There are people on our ditch. There's no way, after 50 years, you're going to tell them how to irrigate. You can do all you can but they're not changing their ways. But a new person coming in we can say, 'hey you can water once a week...you only need this much water...and maybe if you level your yard...and maybe you should plant these things vs. these thing's and we're trying to get that out to new owners on the ditch but that's a slow process because a lot of people say we shouldn't tell them how to water. A new person will be happy to have a one-two page about how to irrigate. How do you test if your soil is flat or not. We got a handbook from USDA I think which is the classic hand/soil test where you just grab the soil so we've been passing that out to people. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to know that your ground has plenty of water. A simple map I've been trying to promote -- let's get that map out about how important the river is...it would show us here's where we were 50 years ago and here's where we are now and this river is really special.

Q8. I think the town council should definitely be on the list. That goes back to their education and their realization of how valuable the Verde

area is for economic development. The Chamber of Commerce obviously. I think that the ditches and I'm on the Verde Ditch but I'm not a board member. They have a unique situation. The Verde Ditch is being run by a special [cannot understand his words here] a board of supervision so they are a unique project. The other ditches would definitely be...get word out to them...about how valuable it is ...about how important their component of water usage is to the river and the community.

Q9. I definitely think it should be a focal point and I like the idea that the Verde River development system ...a whole...that the word gets out there...I don't think that people understand that this is an economic generator. That whole concept and maybe...I was earlier bad mouthing the alphabet soup of different regional organizations. But there maybe should be a Verde River Economic Development authority that is sensitive to the ecological value and understands it is an economic driver to this community and addresses how can we best promote it, and at the same time, protect it. Somewhere the chambers and councils can get information about the value of the river and how it can be promoted.

General Comments: $5m to focus

Well, actually one group that needs to be also involved should be the YAN and their collecting their water rights. That is a special situation When you talk about the ditch companies, I think the YAN needs to be involved -- from economic development. That's an area I'm not really attuned to but I know that they have to be part of the inclusive answer to what's going on with this water.

I think the concept of having regional economic development that's really designed to be along the river is some kind of greenbelt economic development project that promotes not only... this area's desperately in need of intellectual stimulation of economic development. Wise economic development...we're not going to attract smokestack industry -- you know we're not getting smelter industries again. But there has got to be some smart growth and its got to be...I've told people for years that the good news in this area is that it is going to boom. The bad news for a lot of us is how it does it...you can't sit there and say it's not going to happen. the bulldozers, sooner or later, are going to come roaring through. Like that 90 acres behind McDonalds is going to be a shopping mall some day. That's too good of a piece of ground and it won't lie idle forever and SR 260 and I17 is doing to be dramatically different in 10 years or so from now. We can dig our heels in the ground and say we don't want big boxes. But...part of the problem is we know we don't want to be Casa Grande...or Cottonwood. So, we know what we don't want to be. What we need to do is figure out how to attract what we want to be and how do you get from Point A to Point B. There is going to be a mix. You're going to have to have some big boxes in here to some degree because that's just where the economics of retail are. Design does not mean ... the design and exterior and the parking arrangement does not mean it has to be ugly. The fact that retail requires so many square feet to be able to be viable is one thing. It doesn't mean that the building has to be shamefully ugly. They may need requirements for certain amounts for square footage to make money...if you're going to be inexpensive enough to collect all those goods...you're going to need lots of square

feet ....that's just the math. But it doesn't have to be ugly. I have traveled enough, working with Matt Morris on some of these issues, and say you can have a really big Target and it doesn't have to be an ugly Target.

We bought our house on 9/11 and have lived here full time 4 years this summer.

Interviewee: Dr. Susan GraceInterviewer: Jane WhitmireDate: 1-30-11

Q1. I think ignorance is the #1 and just lack of appreciation. I know those are negative things, but I think those are...if those things were changed and if there could be a reason for people to want to protect it, that would be most important for its future. The first thing that comes to my mind just the physical and environmental beauty, but the second part is that if people really understood how intimately it is integrated in their well-being, I don't really know, for instance, if people generally understand...I know I don't understand as well as I could or should, where water comes from. People just think it comes from a tap they go to take a shower and it's what comes out of the tap. They don't think about all the aquifers, the river and the health of the river or the whole system.

Q2. I think people don't understand how we are dependent on the environment. We often have, and this may be a more generalized statement...There are so many of us that come from the Midwest where water is abundant. We come out here and the water still flows out of the tap just like it does there. People don't adjust to living in a desert. In the 70s that was when Earth Day began and there was much more emphasis on that. I don't see it. I'm not aware of it now. My husband did an interesting survey among his students (high school in Cottonwood). "Would you put poison...how much would someone have to pay you to poison in the river? If someone gave you $100 would you put poison in the river? How about $10? How about $15? What would it take for you to do that." And, what amazed me is that children had a price. I just wouldn't do it, myself. There is nothing that could make me do it. You could give me $10m and I wouldn't do it. [min and max and ages] High school aged kids -- grades 9-12 in an ethics class. I don't remember the minimum amount they answered but I was thinking between $10 and $50 to poison the river. Not much. And, $100 seems like a lot of money to those kids. I can't remember, and I wish I would have asked him about this, if there was anyone who wouldn't based on principal not based on money.

Q3. Well, here I feel a little naked. I don't really know. I've heard a lot about it. I've heard what you're doing. Sometimes I see things in the newspaper. It seems like there is a lot of talk, but I don't see action. Just like with this whole Salt River aquifer thing up in Prescott, it seems like there's so much talk but it is so confusing and I don't really see anything that really happens (by the water groups she has read about). I just don't understand or don't glean from the newspaper, and I also don't participate in the meetings - my problem, but I don't see action, I hear talk.

Q4. Well, the first thing that occurs to me would be nature-based -- like natural hikes, natural whatever. But, I would hate to see it become a tubing site -- I would really like for it to be preserved like the BWCA (Boundary Waters Canoe Area) so people don't abuse it. It's up in northern MN and it borders with Canada. There are trails that you can go on that would have interpretation or guide-written leaflets but, for the most part, the last time I was there which was back 30 years ago, there was nothing. There were

rules that you can't take in a lot ... glass, and everything had to be packed out. I hear there are problems down on Fossil Creek - it being trashed. What is that about? Sounds like they just want to party. Our favorite thing for Daniel and I to do is to be out on the Rim and read Walt Whitman by camp fire. That's our thing. That's when we choose to pull it out. [about economics of the river] I don't know. I was thinking about camping or wildlife or...I don't know about other...it being used as way to generate electricity -- I don't think it would. I don't know. It sort of takes us back to the first question and it's ignorance and part of it is my own.

Q6. One thing I see in the paper three times a week is what the flow is but what does that really mean? How does that impact -- because it's been flowing? Is it low because it's been dry or because people above have been taking too much water out so we get nothing? I'd like to know what that fact has to do with our piece. I think if we could show how much it costs to misuse the river and maybe how much the community would gain in jobs that might be created if we could use the river better.

Q6. Well you and the sustainable development groups. But I think we all can be cheerleaders of the river instead of just know that it is there. [how can a connection be made?] I would get a Facebook account going and I think that's a great way to get people involved. Social media is very important in the economic world today. Even VVMC and our department has our own Facebook page. My son, who is getting his MBA at St. Thomas, spent 4 hours yesterday learning about how to you Facebook page as his marketing tool for getting an internship. He needs an economic internship for his MBA for 3 months next summer. Maybe we could use the river, I don't know if we do have interns or internships, in everything from marketing to whatever...

Q7. First of all, the people who trash it and I don't know if there is really a place that would be easy to take a family to. Yeah, we can go over to the Deadhorse if you have money you want to spend that day. But, I think money is a big thing, just access. I can't take my mom and dad to the river because my mom can hardly walk. I don't know of a place where she could get out and enjoy it without having to buy a pass. I wish we had a nice river walk... You know, I wish there were some...maybe it's an interpretation thing. What would happen if we had a park? I don't like to go on the water any more. I used to canoe every day after school in Minnesota when the water was not frozen. Otherwise, we had snowmobiles that we were on all the time. So, I grew up on a river. I've always lived on water. But, anymore because of something that happened, I don't go on the water any more. I just can't. But, I don't mind being by it. I love to hear the lullaby that we're hearing in the background -- the melody. But, what would happen if we had a free place where we could go and do...and paint...or identify bird sounds or, I guess a lot of people fish...or have a picnic like we did today. We couldn't be by the water. And, maybe because this is such a flood plain -- I've been here when you couldn't really walk out here. But maybe there is a part of the river where there is less flood plain and more banks. History. We could add some history to it. You know, I've been working on a family history. I found all of these bits and pieces and pictures and I've put together stories about each person and hopefully made a personality and history and story out of a photograph. Maybe we need to do that to personalize the river so that we can remember, "oh, this is where the so-and-sos used to have their place" and help us connect better that way.

Q8. You would think the Chamber of Commerce would. Maybe the business development organizations that you work with. Why not forest service or the state, although the state.... I don't know about the federal government. That has its own issues and sometimes you do and sometimes you don't want that involved...you just want to be who your local benefactors are -- the County, I don't know.

General comments: In the Verde Valley 5 1/2 years.

Q9. I think we should celebrate it more and cheerlead and promote it more. Verde Valley - home of the Verde River. Visit the Verde River - the scenic Verde River. Join us on the Verde River. Have more places that look inviting to go down to. I've seen occasionally the sign that reads, "river access this way" but it's a little scary road and you don't really know if you're going to find deliverance down there or what. So, I just try to mind my own business and keep going.

[focused money for river] I think first we have to figure out with just the source of the river and get that figured out so we can keep it flowing. And then, I would create parks and advertising and figure out if we can have ... I'm trying to think of other river-based...maybe give tax breaks or help with business development...business plans to help attract people. I wish I knew more but...

Interviewee: Brenda HauserInterviewer: J. WhitmireDate: 1-18-11Place: 507 Pheasant Run Circle, Camp Verde

Q1. Managing the wonderful resource that it is and that's kind of it. It's how we use the river; how we utilize its water and how we realize it is a finite resource.

Q2. I think the main thing we need to understand about the river is actually the appreciation of having a river in your community -- it's an amazing and wonderful resource for recreation, for farming, for ranching, for just recreation of all kinds. I think some of the things we need to understand more are how to better utilize the wonderful resource that it is -- how to expand, you know, like your canoe races and wonderful things you can do with a river. It's just an amazing resource. And, maybe people who don't live by a river don't understand the value of it. So, probably we need to get the word out more.

Q3. I don't know. I can't ... do you know of some? I don't either and that's too bad. All I think of is like canoe races and things that bring attention to the river but as far as economic influences I don't know of any -- I wish I did. Well, when you think of other areas in the country that have river walk areas and economic ventures that expand the usage, we have not really had that. There is no reason why it couldn't happen here. All you need is people with the vision to appreciate and love and, you know, like I can just see - I don't know why we don't have canoe sales and little paddle boats. I don't know why we don't have a store that furnishes things for recreation on the river. I can think of things -- I'm too old to do them. I'm not going to go open a store or anything but surely there are younger people who have a vision -- if I can envision it surely they can. Well, and of course I have to mention farming because I feel, and I'm really not in the farming business any more...so I can say these things, I feel like farming, certainly in Camp Verde - and we're the only ones I guess - there aren't really any in Cottonwood, I think they've always been rather under-appreciated and under-utilized. When we used to do the pumpkin patch it was the most wonderful thing to educate the children about how you water them and how they grow. My younger generation doesn't do that any more. But, I think there are so many valuable ways you can do that. Then, they always say that farming takes too much water and you know it isn't true because most of the irrigation water goes back into the aquifer. So, you know, even things like farming and the river are under-appreciated. It's a wonderful thing...and children need to know where their food comes from and why and how lucky we are here to have a river. Yes, the community garden was wonderful and that did really well ... until you [Jane] retired and nobody else stepped up. Bea Richmond

used to have a little garden at the Fort but I don't know if they still do. She had heritage seeds and everything. But, the Fort is in dire straights and to privatize the Fort makes my heart hurt because of all the antiquities. It is sad and it makes my heart hurt ... it always used to be open -- if you went during the week; If I had family from Iowa or Illinois we always used to go there. And now, you need to plan... The Fort provided the basis for a farming homestead area.

Q4. I know there are a lot of opportunities that we kind of talked about. There are many and I just think of retail and recreation and farming and the wineries -- there is just a lot of potential economically and all associated with the river. I see grapevines everywhere even on the small scales and "good for them." This is a great place, I think, to grow anything.

Q5. I don't know. Facts, you know, education is the key I think to anything like this. Educating the people who don't have the river in their backyard as to the value of it and I don't know what information we could really -- probably just education. There are lots of studies that have been done - probably not enough, but the sustainability of the river is the most important. If we don't work really hard to sustain the river then we don't have much to hope for economically or any other way. So, the more information, the more studies that are done, the more outreach and education is probably the key -- or a key.

Q6. Well, you would hope it would be your elected officials. That's what you would desire - they would be your bell ringers and bull horns -- your elected officials. I would think they would be behind anything regarding the Verde River from representatives down to local reps. And, of course your citizenry and your kids. You just have to start ... the water education day that we have every Oct. We start with 4th graders and we do that across the state because we feel like that's when we should start with education. Project WET is through the UofA and it is just a wonderful thing. It's all over the state -- Prescott, Tucson and down south they have one and we have one here at Dead Horse Park in Oct. We put models -- we have models. We have a watershed model where we show them what happens when you put in a dam or you have snow melt -- what happens when you build houses in a wash. Then, we show them how the watershed works. You know, when you put in a well and pump the water out and it's not replaced and it is just... So, we feel that 4th graders is the place to start with education. [what kind of follow-up is done with project WET] Actually, your teacher -- we give them so much information -- and the teachers actually work way prior to the water education day. They work and the kids study -- it's part of their science projects -- it's directed at the AIMS science testing -- so the teachers come for training too. But they teach the kids and get them ready and afterwards they still follow-up. So, we feel like if we have six weeks of water education in the curricula that's a lot more than we had so... [follow-up in subsequent grades] Probably not much and I wish there was. I feel like that science has kind of been left out of some of the -- water science has been left out especially in high school so we need to work on that too. There has been a lot of work that has been done and I try to appreciate all that has been done but there is much more to do.

Q7. I think probably laws and regulations. I'm thinking of water rights. I'm thinking of, for instance, here in Camp Verde, how you have your historic water rights but those are always tweaked and messed with by the ditch companies and when new development comes in they are tweaked or the rights are traded. They are not appreciated and measured and so that ... I also, on a bigger picture I would worry about the forests because the forest service was actually originally created to protect watersheds...that was kind of what it was about and so I worry on a grand scale when lands are traded or they mess with those you are going to lose something that's not going to be replaced. You may be able to save a piece of it but you're giving away a bigger piece and it's all connected. So, I worry about those on the bigger scale

and, then, of course, on a smaller scale you worry about your own community and how water is utilized, divided up and protected. I guess that's about the main things. There are always the water companies that are owned by towns and things - that probably isn't going to change for a while. So, you just would hope that on a larger scale that it would be appreciated and that would trickle down to your local - and I guess that's what you hope for.

Q8. I would hope everybody would be interested. I would hope, like I said, I would hope your representatives would -- state representatives, county supervisors, local residents, local authorities, water companies. I would hope that everybody would take a page and want to run with it because it is such a good thing.

Q9. Well, it is a focal point. I think -- I don't know how to make it so. I don't know how to make people -- other than education and entrepreneurs who are interested in -- and we have had some. You know, we have had people who -- and I'm glad the forest service office -- you know your hunting licenses -- I'm glad they are where they are; hopefully they help us -- although when I see what they do...and I see the right-of-way up Copper Canyon, you know that was a lovely scenic, pristine wildlife area and now that they gave APS all the right-of-way up there so that little stream that was kind of a valuable little piece of the watershed is no longer protected or enjoyed for what it was. Now it is a busy road. So, I don't know. I don't have any great ideas. I wish I did. I'm not good at that question. I'm not real good at spontaneous responses.

Additional interviews: Some of the business people in town - the little health food store. I don't know what their opinion is of the river and if they appreciate it. All of the water people and the ditch people and the agriculture people, you know we're already involved and we already have opinions. So, maybe we should get opinions of those who don't have an opinion. But, you know I just think of all the people on WAC and TAC and you know, my gosh, there are people with a wealth of scientific knowledge and...which is always good to have in your interviews -- like Doug, Bob, hikers and all your outdoor people are wonderful and they probably have wonderful ideas about how it can be preserved and utilized.

Money t/b spent: Like money for project(s)? Well, of course because I live in Camp Verde I think it should be .... I don't know. Because of where I've been and what I've done I always think money should be spent on studies - that's my genetic code. But, oh gosh if we could actually spend money on something wonderful -- some project, some hands-on education project -- those are so great for kids and adults. There are so many things., I remember taking a group of high school kids once to Red Rock and they did a ... got the worms from the bottom of the water and I thought why aren't we doing this in Camp Verde. Why do we haul them over there -- although it was fun and they learned a lot. But anyway...things like that...summer projects; there are a lot of places you could use money. Not that there is any available but maybe someday.

Concerns/excitement about study: It excites me to bring attention to the river -- it's a good thing, and to bring economics into it is even better because that brings more appreciation and more need to protect and value -- it brings more value to it. And that's what I think we look for. People who love it, you know, we look for more ways to enjoy it. One time I took family from Iowa just to the -- it was after the snowmelt -- and we just went out to Clear Creek and they were so enthralled with it and I know they have lots of water there. But, it was just different and it didn't cost anything and it brought more fun. We spent hours just walking up and down the river (creek) and looking at where it was going. And then we went and showed them where it goes into the river. It is a beautiful thing! I used to go, when my

kids were little, that's what we used to do in the winter. There would be nobody there and we would just take hotdogs -- we'd wear coats and take hotdogs. The kids would throw rocks and stones in the river and it was a good thing.

[reminders of simple pleasures at doorsteps] I don't know what we can do to bring awareness -- it's so wonderful and I don't think the younger - like high school - I really think there needs to be more programs at high and middle school levels. You know what? When I used to have little girl scouts, we used to just go down to the river to learn how to build a fire, roast marshmallows. Those were the outings we took - 5 minutes away, they didn't cost anything and none of us had any money. I just think they need to do more things like that.

[conversation w/grand-daughter a social worker in Flag -- but born and raised in C.V.] Yesterday she said this summer I have to spend (she saw an eagle and it reminded her of a nest that used to be under the bridge and they thought nobody knew about it - it was their secret but I'm sure it was on everyone's radar)...you know this summer I have got to spend more time in my inner-tube on the river because you don't appreciate it until you don't have it any more. She is going to try and come down more and enjoy the river. That's a good thing. Hopefully, all of them - and I do Facebook you know, but there is so many (and they aren't kids anymore -- like 50), they all, when they post things, they remember Clear Creek and they remember the river -- parties by the river and their sand buggies or their jeeps. That was just a part of their growing up and they all want to come back to it. They all come back to visit. They wish they were here and some of them do when they retire -- they look for Camp Verde. I think we have a special place and we're really lucky that we're here.

Interviewee: Dee JenkinsInterviewer: Jane WhitmireDate: 2-5-11

Q1. Well, I would say the lack of water in the river compared to conversations I had with Shirley Jordan and pictures that I saw in her house from the early 1900s. As the water decreases...you know we have a place on Rustler's Trail which is right on the river, and we had a lot of growth in trees and saplings that kept the water level down so that when it flooded it finally removed that and the river got strong and healthy. But as it goes down, you get all that unwanted growth, I would guess that people would say, in the river. So, that's why I'm saying the amount of water in the river dictates how much other stuff gets in the river and restricts the flow.

Q2. As a person who receives irrigation I probably would want to understand, back again, the amount of water in the river -- what's going to happen with the pumping with irrigation and pumping up river ... The Big Chino. I hear both sides of it but I haven't felt I've got a decent explanation of what the impact is going to be. You know...are we going to have water 30-40 years from now -- not just for irrigation, but our wells. I can't think of anything else -- how much goes in and how much goes out is really important.

Q3. I have no idea, Jane.

Q4. I don't have a clue. [irrigation; relationship with the river] I love the beauty of the river; I love the water; I like, I guess it would be for leisure entertainment reasons, Lillee and I love to go sit by the river -- particularly in the spring when it's not so hot but the water temperature goes up. It's soothing to sit by the river and watch the water flow and listen for the beavers. So, it's like therapeutic to me. But I'm

from the East coast, used to rivers and water, so I can appreciate -- it's almost like a 'hurting' river, compared to what I'm used to back east.

Q5. I don't know. I get my information about the river and what's going on through local media -- our newspapers, fliers or through what Clif would learn being part of the irrigation because he touches base with other irrigation companies -- actually I'm a member of two irrigations - Eureka and Jordan Meadows. So, that's where I get my information and understanding of the river is through those sources. I am pretty passive right now about it. I don't know why I am. I guess I'm a true optimist thinking these will work themselves out. I know the river is hurting but I keep thinking people will come to their senses and make the right decisions on behalf of the river -- the people who are taking the water out -- all of them, including ourselves - that we'll understand the river better and use it so that 100 years from now it's still a river. [public policy implications] You would hope there would be collaboration and some compromise. I don't think I can influence the decision. I think this is going to be in a court system. That's what I believe is going to be the ultimate deciding factor whether it's the state government or federal government stepping in it's going to be at that level that something gets decided with this river. [impact on business here] I work for a business and I don't know that the river directly impacts Quintus. It probably impacts the people that work there because we live here and we live here because the river is here. A lot of us do, so if you correlate it that way - the only other thing that the river impacts is people who make their livelihood from the river like the farmers, the cattle growers and those types of farmers and ranchers.

Q6. I have no idea. [people who live here] People who live here...that's a given. People who live here and appreciate the river or use the river. [notice of river] Every day that I cross the river, that I'm not in my car because I can't see over, but when I'm in the truck I always look at the river and I have my spots that I look that tells me the level of the river. I don't know if other people do that, but I have my spots that I look at and gauge "the river is up or it's down." I don't know if I do it consciously or subconsciously. Every day I turn my head right. I don't do it as much when I'm going to town as when I'm coming home because that's the part of the river I also walk -- our side of the bridge. You can't see the river if you're in a car.

Q7. I guess barriers are not understanding how to use the river in a way that is sustainable and that comes from peoples' lack of understanding of the river. [understanding developed] Well, certainly we have to educate the water users -- the people who irrigate and sprinkle -- even the dry people. They're not "irrigating" like we irrigate, but they are still taking water. They don't have the understanding as much as, I think, we even do because we're official irrigators so we're given information about the irrigation adjudication, concern about The Big Chino, and all these litigations that are going on. Now I know that SRP is working with the Eureka. It's fascinating. I don't know if it's good or bad but at least it is a step where they are communicating. People also have to be willing to listen; to be willing to understand. For a lot of people, they've got bigger fish to fry right now - they are trying to feed mouths and save homes. So, you can just keep giving them the information and hope that 10% of it sinks in. [what businesses here rely on or derive income from river -- other than farmers] I'm guessing when we have activities on the river everybody benefits. Specifically, the canoe races. That has to bring some economic boom for the day. Or, any time people come and fish or swim in the river they are bringing some money into the area. I don't think we do much other -- other than the canoe races, do we? Not Camp Verde. [regional use of the river] I have been to Deadhorse State Park a couple of times. I don't go there very much. I use ours a lot because of Lillee. We walk down to the river a lot and even without Lillee sometimes I vary my walk and I go to the river and go clear up to the bridge and do a lot of walking around the river. I cut through Whitakers and walk all the way up to the bridge. I can walk down and go

around Grants. But they just now fenced off so I can't get around it. I have to get out at Mrs. Edge's now. It used to come out at Grippen. But now it's all private property and you can't get out now. The other use of the river is quading. I don't know if you've ever done this, but on the full moon night, or something that's white bright in the summer time, when it's hot as the dickens, if you go out to Verde Lakes and take a road that takes you all the way to the river and then you go straight down to the river bed, you can cross the river on your quads because the river is down in the summer time, and it is like an oasis -- it is just trees like this and there are paths through the trees and it's like a tunnel. The temperature drops; we stay on trails but there are tons of trails back there. You eventually will come out at Beasley Flats. It looks like a riparian area because there are a lot of marshes but you just stay on the path so that you don't get into any mud or anything like that. We love to do that and look forward to doing that every spring and summer. We pack a lunch and do it. The other one that we do is out on Salt Mine Road. Instead of making that sharp left where you go to Beasley Flats, you go straight and there is a ranch down there and a state park and I can't remember the name of it...Rockin...no it's like a one name... Brown Springs and that takes you to the river. And, the river is huge. There are trails...but I believe it's a State Park. So, you have an area where we will get off the road and park our quads and then walk to the river. And there are these enormous sandy beaches. So, we've done a lot of exploring. I used to do horseback but I can't do that any more -- the horse is too old so now we do a lot on quads. It's a long way -- probably 10-15 miles -- I believe it's called Brown Springs. You can look it up in one of your books. [sustainable economic development and how do these opportunities play into the river] I think that if it's managed to protect the river, to encourage people to use it recreationally, I'm find with it because I think if you use it, you appreciate and you'll take care of it. I think a lot of people use the river that we don't even know about. I'll tell you a really quick story. When I went to get Lillee's picture taken at Sears, the fellow that was taking her picture noticed I was from Camp Verde. He said, "I'm from Prescott. When I was a teen ager all of us kids always went to Camp Verde several times a year so that we could pay in the river." I don't know that we realize how many people use the river that are not from here. It would be nice to measure that.

Q8. Hopefully it's the people who are going to make a decision on behalf of the river long-term and maybe locals will understand that there is some untapped potential there.

Q9. [$5m to focus/target -- ideas] Keep educating people about the river. Maybe to develop a couple areas that are more recreational in nature. You know, I know we have White Bridge but it isn't very big and you really can't use it to "swim." Fishing and picnicking is great but there is no ...Beasley Flats is a nice area to picnic and swim but it's pretty far out there. The road turns to dirt but maybe that's their intent -- to leave it more natural. The areas that I use maybe they could make sure that people stay in the road tracks and not destroy it. But, I really haven't honestly seen a lot of people destroy that area. It's pretty much the same year after year. [regional advantage of the river] I don't believe ...was it Camp Verde that developed White Bridge? What about Rezonico Park? I see that it gets used a little bit in the summer. I can see dads with kids down there fishing. There are some areas I think they could develop and make it more family -usable. [other ideas] See, when you say 'economic development' I automatically think of industry and that's not necessarily true. You can develop something for agricultural or recreational purposes. But, when you say that, my mind, because I'm in big business, thinks, " Oh no, it's industry, you're going to put crap in the river and hurt it." But, that's not necessarily true. So, there is something right there. How many other people interpret that the wrong way? They think about development -- negatively instead of positively. [Quintus] We don't put anything in or pull anything out of the river. We had our own septic system but when the city ran the septic out to those hotels a year ago, they made us hook up to that. I know we are and Verde Sol Air which is right below us...I think the hotels are and we're at the end of Industrial.

[other interviewees] I'm sure you interviewed political folks around town - current and past. Old-timers are always interesting to talk to about the comparison of what the river was and what it is and how they feel about it. I've always found they're quite interesting to talk to. [concerns/interest in study] I would just be interested in what the outcome is and did it make an impact somewhere.

Interviewee: Russ MartinInterviewer: Jane Whitmire2-3-11

Q1. As you know, I haven't been here long enough to really know too much about it but from what I can gather and the things that I've read, it is the pumping, basically, my water well. I have a well and those kinds of activities seem to be, I guess, the ones that I'm most concerned of because I understand the hydrology well enough, coming from Colorado, they are tied together in water rights and here they are not. So, to me, I guess I'm concerned that our growth, if we don't find some way to do water differently, that eventually we will actually pump it dry and won't even know how or why. So, I guess, that is my bias based on where I come from but that certainly is the case. On the reverse of that, I actually think that some of the vegetation and buffering...we haven't...and again, I'm coming from other areas, we haven't over-built on the river. Certain areas, maybe so, but it is not as though the Verde River has concrete walls on it and rocks built up to build the houses right on the river. I think, in a lot of ways, we're fortunate because of that. Most of the river is fairly free-flowing and fairly buffered from absolutely development right on the edges and banks. So, for me, that is not really a health issue where it is in other rivers that I've seen. I think, and all sorts of reasons why, if there is a buffer there, even our streets and things and runoff and all of that, I don't think affect it. That's my personal bias right now. I couldn't say whether that's true or not. But, to me it's more about maintaining the flow throughout the river and throughout the season is a concern because a lot of the health of the river, to me, is the animals, the flora and fauna kind of answer. So, if we don't have running water then all of those things that depend on that running water, are going to be lost or, at least, seasonal like they are in the rest of Arizona. And, that would concern me. That health issue is based on flora/fauna and year-around water that gets based on the pumping, I think. That's my biggest concern at this point.

Q2. You know I think we under estimate the importance of water and I think we under estimate the Verde River and how important it is for how we all ended up here. I mentioned this to you before, but I think it's relevant to that. If it wasn't for the river here, would we have supported a population of 50,000 or whatever in the Valley? Probably not. Would we be attracted to this place? Probably not. It would be just another intersection of roads and would the roads even be intersected here if it wasn't for the river? So, yeah, you have to ask all of those questions. So, I think, you know it's a basic underpinning of life, here, and that's everything from the economics that we all appreciate it and enjoy because we have the interchange. It's the quality of life, and again, maybe that's why we have those intersections. I don't think people, they see it everyday...you know, I see it every day and cross it every day, and I tend to look at it every day -- look at how much is in there and that sort of stuff, so to me it's an everyday thing and I don't know that the people have taken that approach to it. I think they, even coming from another community, or area where a river is right there and flowing all the time, a large river flowing all the time, I think they just don't associate themselves to the river even when we say it's the Verde River and the Verde Valley. I think they just think green or they don't really ... When I was in the Yampa Valley and it was the Yampa River, here it's the Verde Valley and the Verde River, I'm not sure that everybody puts that together when they say it. They just kind of...and I don't know that they

are associating Verde, and the word Verde, to the river. I think they just associate it in a very general term and I think that's unfortunate. If they did associate it more with the river, then the river would get more attention. From the general populace, I think there is a good concentrated group of people that get it and understand it but I think that the person you run into in the grocery store that's just trying to make a living, I don't think associates that. It would be interesting to even ask them, "Why do we call this the Verde Valley?" And see if they even associate that with the river. I think you might...a real basic, simple question you could ask at the grocery store and then, they would go, "Well, I don't know. Did we have the Spanish here for a while? Well, it is kind of green when you're in a desert." I think you'd find all sorts of other answers that wouldn't be associated with a river and that would be an interesting...That's what I think they need to understand -- that really, it's a basic underpinning and I wish they did. I think, they will at some point. It may be because the reason for it went away or it became a seasonal situation. Dare I suggest that you have to wait for a crisis before you learn what it is that you were all based on? All of our history and culture is based on the fact that there is that river there -- ancient history, recent history. If there wasn't that, they wouldn't have located here. You know, everything from Montezuma Castle being built here to, more recently, the Fort. It would have been built in another valley because they were looking for sustainable water. So, I wish people got it better that way. I don't that we've really ... they may go "Oh, Yeah" but it's not a thing they would base any of their conversation on and that's too bad.

Q3. I'm pretty limited there. I guess when I interviewed I took a look around at things that I could enjoy and I guess look forward to - some of the river activities. A straight-forward one for me was the fishing opportunity with my children. But, just the rafting, I guess, and those kind of things that are... It seems kind of strange to think of it where/when I came in because it's been fairly low water there. But, to think about how the opportunity is there. When I saw that, I though "Wow, the river isn't just the (unclear) or one of those that are dried up. There is a real river, live and flowing." When those activities, you can search up and find that those are going ... I don't know who they are. But all I remember is that those are activities that are possible here and I know fishing is possible, as well. So, those are things that I know. The other part is just the sight-seeing nature of it. The fact that we have parks, and everything from BLM or forest service kind of areas to access the river, so it has a tourism-related or picnic or quality of life related activity to it that I'm aware of. Those are things that come to mind more frequently. I don't know if there is anybody actively doing commercial activities that take from the river. I'm certain that we're not doing commercial fishing but we may be doing commercial activity that gets fishermen to the river. I assume that some of that is going on. Beyond the nature of the river providing for the farms and the life here, I don't know what else, commercially, is going on. That's a learning curve for me that I haven't started to climb.

Q4. Well, again, I don't quite know yet. I've been to a few of the places that I think are the more publicized places about going and accessing the river. But, I tend to believe that, in the middle of the summer, when you can go to a river and access it is something that we haven't really tapped to a level that I think we might be able to because, again... I think that's part of, like you go to Deadhorse, people get that. But, I think that's so unique in Arizona, in July, to be able to go to that kind of environment this close to the metro area, etc. I know there are other environments just like that. And, how we made it to a level that's commercial. I think the RV parks have tried to do some of that to some level and created an economic opportunity off of the river environment, but to a large extent, the accesses have all been made public. They're not necessarily private or have turned a buck unless you...someone stays in a hotel and then goes and visits those. I don't know that we've made that tie yet. There's ties to the history...if you come up here you stay the night, you know you can go to Montezuma Castle. Do they know that we can come up here and stay the night and go to an area, Beasley Flat...do they know that?

Because, you could spend a whole day doing that. Have we really taken that opportunity? I know there is a small portion or segment of boaters, rafters, etc. that know about it and take advantage of it, but have we taken the full extent of the economic opportunity that's there -- that the river gives us. I don't know. I would think that if it's tapped, is it fully tapped? And, if we tapped those things, the thing that goes back to some of the answers I've said before, is if we did that more, would we appreciate the river more? Because, a lot of times we don't appreciate what we don't know and if more people knew about it, not only here in the Valley but elsewhere, would we have more people appreciating what we have in that sense? I think there is probably the opportunity there. Is it a seasonal opportunity? Maybe so. Is it one that could be over-used and all of a sudden you have 45 rafts in a section of river and all of a sudden that's abusing the benefit of having the river. So, there is some of that level of management that I think is certainly o.k. but it seems like it's less than advertised to a level that someone could turn an economic opportunity out of it. [appreciate - what does that involve?] It's like I appreciate my wife. But, I bet I'd appreciate her more if she was gone. You know, I don't know how I do. I don't know that it's conscious that I get this taken care of; or this happens because of that. But, boy if she's gone, I certainly know what it was to have it because now it's not there. So, that's what I mean by 'appreciate.' We don't necessarily appreciate those things that are the underpinnings of how we operate. That's what I mean by that. I don't know that I’m talking about the level of worship. I think it's just one of those things of do we really consciously understand how having it is really important to us. Do we 'appreciate' that? Like I said, I use the analogy of my wife. I can appreciate her, of course. But, when she's gone, I really appreciate what she was when she was there. So, I think the river is often that way. Do we really appreciate it? I think we would if it was gone. If we lost it for a season, I think all of a sudden there would be....to the basic person, like I said, at the grocery store, there would be, "oh man." Again, you would appreciate it because it's not there. You'd go, "Wow, I didn't realize how much I didn't appreciate it when it was here." So, that's what I mean by that word.

Q5. That's a tough question. Hydrology is a tough thing. I go back to the answer of the first one. If we're going to promote sustainability, we have to figure out and educate enough to the level that people get the connection of how they use water every day and where that actually comes from. We have struggled with this where I've been before - whether it was right in the source waters of everything all the way through Haydon where we saw it come through. I don't know that, if we're not connecting, and that's the question, if we're not connecting the source of that benefit, it's, in my mind, purely educational. I look back to the Verde River Days and Chip Norton had this thing and he was showing the kids how, you know, he would put a little dye in the thing and...Project WET....yeah, that was fantastic. That kind of stuff, if we can keep making that connection, then whatever economic opportunities, like I mentioned -- fishing or just that we can benefit our quality of life, and then the fact that if we have a good quality of life, people come here with good ideas and smart ideas and create an economic thing, it may have absolutely nothing to do with water or the river. They showed up here just because they appreciated the type of ecosystem that we have here versus everywhere else. That's the fear, if you lose that sort of connection between the water and where it actually comes from and does what it does, that's a very basic connection, I guess. But, if we are able to make that connection, I think the ability to have sustainability and the ability to promote and continue to promote something that is not just a year-in-year-out seasonal kind of situation. Like I said, the basic underpinning is making that connection between their well, the flowing river, seeing them ... and I know that's a hydrology discussion...and it's not a perfect discussion, it depends on where you are along the river...if that is really tied to that. But, for the most part it is. So, if you could just make that connection. With my kids, they get it now. They know that the water comes out of the ground. Just that little exercise. They now connect that and they understand. They get it. Could they explain it again? No. But, they know that there is some connection there. Will they take that to the next level of...if we continue to pull out of this, it will no longer be there

because it's in a quantity that kids necessarily can't quite get. My dad used to say when we would go to the Grand Canyon. He said, "You know, if everybody threw a rock in the Grand Canyon, this was just to keep us from throwing rocks...if everybody threw a rock in the Grand Canyon, it would fill up." Not really...but it's close enough -- getting to the concept that the reality is... A little bit has a cumulative effect is really an interesting connection that I don't know...if we don't use it properly, all the efforts to make sure that we promote the Valley, etc. will be all for naught because eventually the growth will, the golden egg, so to speak, will be gone.

Q6. You know this is a tough one in Arizona. I don't know if I told you I got a job based on The Nature Conservancy being a negative in a rancher's mind in Utah. So, I assume there is still some of that mentality that exists here. My first job I got because the guy that was more qualified than me actually had...he was in Tucson working for TNC as an intern, and just because of that, the farmer/rancher that was the commissioner/supervisor in the meeting said, "Don't hire him - they've already warped his mind." So, I don't know if that mentality exists. I think they are a huge supporter. I really appreciate what TNC could do and bring to the discussions -- just the ability to have the biologists, all of those people in that ... a huge opportunity. But, in the same sense, how is that perceived here in the Verde Valley, I don't know. But I see them as one that, from my perception coming from outside in, I feel very close ties to them and what they can do. I don't necessarily have to agree with the way everything they do...but I certainly agree that they can't be missed in this conversation. I can't...there is no base-level of understanding of them and the Valley before they were here so there's no way for me to make that same leap, but I still think they're important. I tend to believe that it's not the politicians that are going to make the people understand. I believe that politicians need to understand because they need to show leadership. And, whether the populace understands, that group still needs to have a basic understanding and show leadership and go...you know, we have to do this because this is the right thing to do even if the general populace does not quite understand in the moment. So, I think they're a key point and support for any policies that go forward that's an obvious thing. It would be nice to get the general populace, or a ground swell, or support...I don't know that that's possible. I think it will be key players that get the ears of those who can make decisions, whether they are in water companies, or sewer companies or just general users of water. Those are key. I think those people that do derive some of their economics off of that...your RV parks, those people that get how special the river is in a locational type of thing are key supporters. If they knew that there was an effort going on, they would probably play a role in it because it is key to their economics. So, those are off the top-of-my-head scenarios. But, I think we over play the political people and their decisions. But, I think that if we can teach them leadership, some of these things should be logical enough, in a 2 or 3, you know they say you don't learn it the second time, you learn it the third time you say it and we could probably do some of that to get to a point. But, as you suggest, I read through a lot of the facts and there are so many out there and so many studies, but they are very much studies, and almost a little difficult to be able to make actual connections and then feel like that. It's like I said, going back to what Chip did in that Project WET deal, that was ... You could read these studies that say that to continue ... That's what it is and you could say that, "Guys, you know, this is what happens. It was really cool. So, these studies are all thick and they say that. But, to have someone just do it and then, you own it, and then the natural skepticism will be there. But, like I said, if you showed my kid two or three times, you would assume that some political, some RV park, some whoever it is that you're trying to help them understand it, would get that tied pretty quickly.

Q7. The biggest one is my perception, coming from the outside, knowing Arizona a little bit as a kid. The one that seems to hit me pretty hard right now is the political barrier to change -- drastic change in water right policy or water right law. If we all understood it well enough to know that, I think there is a

resistance to changing it. Frankly, if the water right law, unknown...unknown quantity, there hasn't been...and I was listening the other day about this...this thing that TNC was talking about and trying to establish some of those right values and this kind of stuff. I thought, you know, has anybody decided how big the bucket is? You know, let's assume...and I'm trying to use some easy understanding. We know how many trees are out there to cut down to burn. But, do we really grasp the concept of the water right and its ... It's not inexhaustible. It's not sitting there waiting to tap forever. What is the quantity in the Verde? What is the quantity in the state of Arizona? And then, from that becomes the ... I see that as a very difficult thing where in Colorado it's almost a known quantity. It's not quite on the river that was a free-flowing river. But, if you go to the Colorado River system, it's known exactly how much they think, they may be wrong, but they've said what is 'one' and everybody has a piece of 'one.' Even if they're wrong, it's a known quantity and I think getting to that point, we may never be able to do that in Arizona and that is a sad thing because ultimately when you don't make a line in the sand that says, "this is all the water we've got" you will inevitably keep pushing that to a point where you only know...until you run out. The question says, 'sustainable.' I think that's it. I don't know that it couldn't be done individually. I don't know that it couldn't be basin-wide. There is a lot of other things that will have their fingers in the pie. You list several of them. I don't see those, and maybe it's the law and regulations, or establishing some level of how big the bucket is...I think that until we get to that, all the other barriers, I think, can be done through education or otherwise in showing the benefit of establishing some level of "here's the bucket and we want to make sure we keep the bucket full at a sustainable level." Until we decide how big the bucket is, I don't know that the arguments with a ditch company, will be...it will have some level of effect, but it certainly doesn't go to a sustainability of our life and the economics here. It may keep us from getting to that inevitable point at which we run out, and then we realize how big the bucket actually was. But, and it may make that longer until Kingdom comes, so to speak, but I think until we've decided that ultimate size of the bucket and we do some good work there, the sustainability efforts are all just relative to trying to keep and prolong that little bit of the apple. Eventually, you will eat the whole apple. We can do everything to keep smaller bites to get so that the apple lasts us longer, but until we decide how big the apple is, I think that, unfortunately, we don't know if we've reached sustainability until we've decided what we think is the sustainable pumping or the amount of water, etc. I know that's a very technical look at the river, in my mind, but it's the one that I think, to go to me personally, my concern to be able to do my job in the state of Arizona through the rest of my career, it scares me. If I was to move to some other community, it still scares me that we haven't established some level that I could be comfortable that when the clock runs out, or the water runs out, that I'm not going to be stuck holding the bag and say, "Well, it's your fault." So, that's the kind of stuff that I think goes against the sustainability factor.

Q8. The answer is always everybody. But, then trying to be specific about how you would approach that..the idea that I would assume the governmental entities, including the national and local entities, should and would. I think that would be a no-brainer kind of exercise. But, I think I would hope that those that I mentioned that are economically tied to it and know it, should and would want to be a part of this because I think that's where you might get some groundswell of support for trying to get to some sustainable factor because their buck depends on it. So, I think they will find this important to them in trying to understand it and see if they can increase their understanding to have that coffee table talk or that grocery store talk. That much more ... they are that much more educated and I think that's important...and then be able to point to something and say that that, "See, people do see this river as important" and not feel like they're alone in the discussion or maybe take a different context to it. I see it based on what...I see the rive everyday and this section of the river...or whatever... and hopefully take a broader concept of what the river has. I think we talked about what is Phase II, III...V down the road...I think if those people were able to get the findings and understand that there are other like-minds or

that there are other people that believe there is something there...and we all ... I don't know how many different people were interviewed in this process but... It they understood the wide variety of people, I'd be surprised if anybody has said so far in this, "I don't know that the river is that important." So, there is a base-level of understanding, right? But, how far do we take that and where do we take that is hopefully where this is a launching point to keep working a base from understanding and really getting...if there is technical issues that need to be prepared, so that people are educated...whatever it is that we're able to gather that from it and get those people to go, "You know...that's good. But, you know what I could add to it? I could add this." So, it's almost not just the people that we want to hear or speak to the choir, so to speak, but it's people in the scientific world or realms that would maybe go, "You know what? It doesn't address this, but I can see that there is a support for something and they seem to be missing something or some level of detail, I think I could provide that." I think those are the ... But, how do you get that to those people and who are those people, I don't know, but those are the ones that would be interested in understanding how important it is. [repository] What is a list of all the things that have been done? I tried to look at all of the things that were available to me. But...here is all of the things that have been done; here's the missing pieces to help somebody else connect the dots. There might be missing pieces here that are just fundamental to the question, like I said, how big is the bucket? I haven't heard anybody say, how big, but we've supposed it...we've said, "o.k., so many cubic feet or so many acre feet or whatever have/is in the Valley. Well, SRP knows that. It's like a little magic number they keep in their mind. But, nobody really has said, you know, this is the number. This is the amount of water. Then, you have the compacts that were all, like you mentioned before with the state of Arizona, and how we have to keep water flowing through us... There is known quantities there but it's almost like everybody is afraid to step out there and say what it is and those are missing pieces to the story to be able to really help somebody connect that. I'm sure there are people out there that could do that if there were some sort of matrix that says, "You know, when we line this up and line this up we have a missing understand here. Or, we have several different opinions about what it is, I wonder if there is a one right answer as to the hydrology in this section of the river or the access issue here or the health, you know whatever it is of any part of the section or the system of the whole." And then, obviously, going beyond the Verde River, how do other water systems, if at all, affect what we do here -- the interconnectedness. I know in Colorado, once we established the bucket, then people were taking from one bucket and moving it to the other bucket. That was always a big deal. I lived my whole life based on who was trying to dip their hands in our bucket. So, those are things that I, again, maybe it's my ignorance, but I think there is some level of missing piece in the whole story here and it's almost as though even if they are there, the people that have that information kind of keep it closely guarded.

Q9. I go back to what I just said. I don't know what the missing pieces are so maybe there is some level of investment in some of those missing pieces of understanding what the river is actually capable of, or what the groundwater ...what are we actually dipping into; how big is this thing and how long is it going to sustain. It there was some level of effort to get to some quantifiable answer, that, I think, could help the immediacy of the importance. I think the lack of that backstop - you, know, how close are we to the end of this road, would be an important thing to do because then you could tell people... And, maybe, we might find we're not that close to the end of the road. O.K. , fine. But, even with that, then even the people like myself that think we're closer to the end of that road than maybe we believe we are, could do something...would be active in trying to do that. I think that's who is involved now...people that think we're closer to the end of that road than others is the ones who are becoming more active. If we could identify how close we are to running dry, is it another 5 years of sustainability, or drought or what is it that's going to get us to the end of that road where we go, "Oh, if we knew..." If we could put some money and know what it looks like ...and that seems like, it wouldn't be very publicity oriented but I think it would help all of the other efforts that could be made. The other is, I think, taking...and this is

like a selfish thing for me, but taking it to the kids in the valley -- getting them... The most successful recycling I ever did was when my kids came home and told me that they wanted to do it. Well, I was doing it but not at the level I was able to do it once the kids said it. To what level we can get to them, and I know they're not the only segment of the population, but it certainly...if we could do some level of sustained activity there, one that was consistent and sustained over a period of years, I think you would start to see a real tie there. One of the reasons that I feel so strongly about the river is that when I was in high school, I used to go and test the Platte River and I tested for PH and I tested for these things and learning chemistry. I would go out there in the freezing cold and dip my hands in there and hold it for a minute. It was very archaic, I grant you that, but, dang, I learned so much just from that. Boy that tie was strong. And, ever since then...and I didn't grow up near a river but man, when I did that as a teen ager, all life now...I realize the importance of it. I don't know if that's how much benefit that has down the road, but it certainly did have a big impression on me. If there is some level of sustained effort of a group to try to use children/kids/preteens/teens to get some tie to the river, they may see it.... And, I thought it was, o.k. -- cool. I get to leave and I'm not in school until 9:00 because I have to go out to this section of the river and do this and then I come back and do some of this, that and the other.... If they start out that way, at the end of the day they are going, "Well, this is really cool." They don't really know how they're getting tied to the right answer. I just don't know..maybe there is...maybe it's really happening. I haven't been in the school systems here at all or any of those kind of things. I know in Haydon it wasn't happening to the level ... They went to the TNC (unclear) Ranch, they went once a year to see the flora/fauna, the river. There was a day. So, that's where I'd spend a good chunk of that...is setting of a program, some level of activity year after year that could build that kind of, I may not understand flow at second grade, but by the time I get to tenth grade, I'm calculating the flow. But, I understand that the river flows here and ... so there are all sorts of...and I would think that that is invaluable, the ties and connections to the water, and how it comes out. We get our kids in that little food, or the agricultural club, we did that because we know ... My wife and I grew up in areas where we had eggs and chickens and we understood the connection. They don't have that. So, we try to give them that and that's our effort because we are so urbanized now ...our kids are and that's our fault, so we're trying to give them some tie there. I think that would be a winning combination because that generation, or the next generation, are the ones that are going to help. If the bucket does dry out in our short time here, they are going to figure out how to solve it and be the ones that are willing to make the sacrifices we can't get people to make.

Interviewee: Van McDonaldInterviewer: Jane WhitmireDate: 1-30-11

Q1. Well, you know the whole situation in this country right now, because its God is money and everything that goes on has a bottom line of money, the thing that I've always seen about the Verde River -- it should have been a park for all the communities. It's just a big waste not to do that. Some of the other states, as I know you're aware, like Colorado, for instance, every little town has a beautiful park. Sometimes it's linear, sometimes river, or sometimes whatever, but they take advantage of that and many other states do too. From the standpoint of the people that live there, and especially the tourists that come through, it's a real bonus. It's good for business. So, the big problem is probably the state of mind of the people that live there. They are not aware of the worth it would be to do something like that and the fact that they can all participate in it -- not only physically to improve it but

to expend the money to get it done. So, those two factors -- the fact that money is always a big problem and the fact that people don't have an awareness of what the value would be.

Q2. The public is always, no question about it, they're brainwashed by the people that have some sort of a vested interest in what happens. So the public, number 1, is educated with lies -- to be blunt, and it's always towards somebody making money somewhere. That's probably the main part of it. They are just so mislead. The United States has the most mislead people in the world. And they are so beset with propaganda from all directions. You get propaganda from the utility companies, from big oil, from developers, from banks. And, if you always look at it, which people don't, the bottom line is money. The people that are making huge money, like the pharmaceutical companies and the banks and oil and things of that sort, they spend... If, for instance, APS spent the money on a really green alternate energy, which they don't want, as they do for the propaganda that they pay for it in the media, they could already have this state in very good shape as far as pollution is concerned and as far as alternate energy is concerned. There is no question about it. They know all about it. Those people know more about alternate energy than the people [general population] do, by far because the people [general population] don't know anything generally speaking, except the propaganda they get which are lies. [How could tracking of money be used?] Because there are a lot of people that have the capability to make these things work, there is not a bit of a problem in the world of having sustainable communities and alternate power sources of all sorts. They are starting to become a fact, primarily because the government is subsidizing some of it. But they're usually subsidizing things they know that are not going to work. Just look at their record. What they need to do is have a free market so that the franchise, for instance that APS has, does not limit a person from generating electricity because the amount of electricity that can be generated from the sun is just beyond peoples' belief. If they had a free market, I guarantee you that certain individuals that have that capability and drive to do it, they know how to do it, but it's just so hamstrung by the laws and everything. Almost everything is like that. For instance, and I'm using APS but there are many others like that, they are the sponsors of every one of those government programs that hit this state and they're just not going to allow it to happen although they act like they are -- but, they're not.

Q3. There, too, in the case of water rights and the Verde River and all that sort of thing, it's not so much propaganda in that case, it's just that you have different views from experts and one will tell you one thing and another will tell you the other. Neither one of them are probably really right. There is just too much that is unknown there for anybody to come up with a real answer to it. But, the only development that's going on that I'm aware of that has to do with the Verde River is reports and things that have to do with supplying water to the communities and to new development. New development in Arizona is what it thrives on. In fact, that's really the only industry. If Arizona isn't growing, there is nothing going on essentially -- a little bit, but not much. So, we're in a situation where if they're not building new homes and subdividing property and things like that, this place is pretty dead and we happen to be there right now. For the United States to exist as it has for several/many years, the situation is that they want everybody to be at work -- it doesn't matter if it's productive or not, as long as they're working and paying taxes. And they've even gone so far in the last few years of giving people money just so they'll spend it. So, we have a monetary system that requires that everybody spends all the money that they make and all the money that they can borrow. That way, the taxes go and everybody, including all the bureaucrats, can work and pay taxes. And then, the governments, all of them, have a system that they budget for the coming year, sometimes for more, and they are basing it on the fact that if everybody is working and everything else, which in Arizona a lot of times is the truth, they'll have the money to pay for it. But, they haven't paid for it yet. And yet, they've budgeted for it, they're committed to it and when it doesn't happen, they don't know what to do because there is

nothing they can do except borrow money somewhere or the government bails them out. We're at the point now where the government is going to be faced with bailing out virtually every segment of government that's below them. The states, counties, cities, school districts...and government is broke. They are printing money with no basis and we're about, in my opinion and many others, about to lose this wonderful thing that the United States and everybody in the world bases their trade and what have you on the dollar, and that's very much in danger now. When that happens, and it's going to happen overnight, somebody like China will be the monetary unit that they use as a trade and whoever has that has it in order to just print money, with no basis like we've been doing. But, if you go too far like we have, then somebody else is going to take over because you're broke. And...anybody that doesn't think we're broke is just kidding themselves because we're past the broke stage. There is no way, if you take our present debt as a country, that it could ever be paid. It's just impossible. It can't be done. And, the other thing is, the worldwide banking system, which is pretty much gone out on their own, is a system that exists...their asset is actually the debt of the people. In other words, banks are set up to where whatever assets they show, which is primarily debt and primarily on homes and things like that, people are defaulting. There were over a million homes that were lost to the banks last year. Some estimates are as high as 5 million in the next two years, so all of this paper that the banks have is what their asset is. Their asset is somebody else's loan and their default on it. Values are no more than one half what they were in the normal system of things. [local opportunity as region to sustain] I don't think that it is anything but simple, and it's what anybody has to do to be self-sustaining, or at least to a major part...the Verde Valley has the capability without much trouble at all being self-sustaining. It would just be easy. In the first place, any self-sustaining community, and historically there have been some, is based on agriculture. It's based on people...not having this banking system to where they should be their own bank. You're up against every aspect of the financial community to be against that. They don't want you to be self-sustaining. That's the last thing in the world they'd want you to be, especially to the point where you wouldn't borrow money from them. A self-sustaining community would be its own banker and it could be that easily. This area, in particular, wouldn't have any problem having a wonderful agricultural base. I'm talking about cattle and the ability to grow virtually everything. The river is water -- there isn't anything more important than water. I mean you can talk about oil, everything else, when you come right down to it, water is the most valuable resource and we have a lot of it. It should be used, as some of it is now...you've got people in this community, a lot of them, that are on small acreages and, if everything shut down, they'd be fine. But, you take any kind of a city, especially something like Phoenix, and you'd see this happening over and over again. Look what happened when Katrina struck New Orleans. The government couldn't even supply them with water. You've got people in a huge area, and Phoenix is a good example, if it wasn't trucks going in there every day just by the million, almost, those people in three days would be starving. When people start starving, they get pretty violent. You can see that happening and you cannot rely on the government to do that. The people have to do it themselves. But if these people in the Verde Valley, with the potential that they have, would have an agriculture base, get rid of the use of the automobile to the extent they do, and take care of themselves, not only themselves individually but the community in general, it would be like a walk in the park and this could be the most beautiful place you ever saw and it could be wealthy in the sense of peoples' standard of living. If you just got to the point where you didn't have utility bills, which is real easy, and you grew most of the crops and shared them in the community...just think of it. Put a pencil to that some time and see how much more money you would have. The American people are so engrained in this system of our money that they just can't fathom anything else. The other things is, if you look at the record, right now the stock market is going like crazy on what basis, nobody knows, because it's not going to stay there. There is going to be, in my opinion and I'm certainly not alone in this, things are really going to get a lot worse and people are going to be forced to do something like I'm talking about or they're going to starve. That's all there is to it. It doesn't matter how

much money they've got. They're just not going to be able to exist without doing something on a community basis or an area basis that makes them so they don't have to rely on this stupid money system that this government has. All they are is consumers. We're getting to the point where we don't produce anything. Even a major part of our food is coming from other places.

Q4. There is so much here that could be an advantage that it's a long list, but it's huge. I mean the potential here is extreme. The weather is about as good as it gets anywhere on a year-round basis. You know, I can live anywhere I want to and I live here because it is just a wonderful place to live. But, it's getting to the point, especially with the amount of retired people that are here, which is maybe 70% - the last time I did a study it was 65% and I know it's more than that now, most of these people actually don't produce anything at all. They are living on whatever retirement that they've put away and their retirement, I know there are exceptions to this, but some have lost either one-half or all of their retirement in the stock market because cities, everybody, they keep interest rates like they are because they almost force you to go to the stock market if you don't know anything else. People think they have no choice and I talk to a lot of them. They are just ignorant about anything except what they worked at and that's all been changed an awful lot too. So, they end up not sleeping at night, literally, because what they are living on is disappearing. It's going to get a lot worse. A lot of people, including banks, and the government itself, invest in bonds. Bonds have to have a basis somewhere and there is none. Either today or the next few days, you're going to see the ratings that they give bonds just go through the floor. The ratings that they gave to the big federal banking system, until the day it failed, they were good. So, the ratings aren't worth a damned thing.

Q5. The Verde River is where we get all of our irrigation water, essentially all of our water. It is the most important thing here. It really is. If you didn't have that, you wouldn't have anything. I never have done a study that didn't link to the Verde River. A study that doesn't recognize and, the best a person can, describe how it relates, I wouldn't even read the study. It wouldn't be worth it. I've not only done it here, I've done it other places. Other places are very similar. You always have this fear, and it's real and should be that water is going to be gone. Now, Salt River as you know, basically claims all our water and sooner or later, they will get it. So, people wonder what we're going to do if that's the case, and it will be. You can see it going on all the time. Other states have had that problem. I think it's important, Jane, that you do relate what's about to happen here to what's already happened some other places because of the disappearance of water and there too you run into this money problem. If you get me started on this, you've got a lot to listen to, because it is one of my favorite subjects. The one thing I'd like you to keep in mind is that there is so many ways, and when I talk about an agricultural community, I'm talking about water being revered and respected and there's no reason that can't be done. But, whenever you take this thing to where it is now, and some of our huge farmers like ADM and some of those guys, they are taking over the big stuff. They are irrigating millions of acres and all they're doing that for is to raise wheat or something like that that they are selling to China or Russia -- it's a money thing. Think of what we could do with that feeding the communities that are here and exporting the surplus. That's the way it ought to be. And, we talk about export, you can reduce that down to just one part of a community with certain talents and certain things supporting another and vice versa, so that a real good plan for a sustainable community is not like one thing. It's a community that takes care of itself. It would be so easy if it weren't for all these other problems. You take China, in the first place, I can get into this too because our form of government is not workable. It's not. You can't have people on the street simply voting for things so they're getting a free ride. It just doesn't work. Somebody that's got more sense should be telling them what to do -- like in China. The elite are really the ones that need to make the decisions and that would benefit everybody. Whenever you get people, as we now have, putting people into office because of the people who haven't got sense enough to dress

themselves in the morning, and that's the way their job depends on it, then you've got a mess just like we've got. It's not workable.

Q6. The people themselves are the only ones that can ever really do that and part of the reason for that is that they vote. But, they have to vote for the right things. They have to be educated to the point where they understand that their vote is a goal that they can all understand and it's a good goal - not simply ... Look at the amount of bureaucrats that we've got now, Jane. Some states are even worse. I worked for the federal government for about 3 1/2 years one time in a 6-story building and I went all over the place and I can tell you that to say that 10% of those people in that whole building ever did anything would be kind to them. You see, the government doesn’t care. They don't care at all as long as they're making money. They can be giving it to them and essentially they are...it's like a welfare state. And they are spending every dime of it and everything they can borrow. And then the banks are there with this huge amount that they call assets that are nothing but debt which has evaporated at this point and we're really going to hurt for it. Whenever this monetary system starts using Chinese money instead of ours for the basis of trade all of the world, the very next day, everything that we buy is going to be at least twice as much the next day. And then you take the price of gasoline -- already above $3.00 now, and it's going to go way higher, and that makes everything that we have, because we're such consumers, all of our stuff comes from somewhere else. It's insane. I mean anybody that can think can see that it's not workable.

Q7. The laws and regulations are getting out of hand. They're starting to cost more money than they're worth. Almost every law we have that has to do with development has to do with the automobile -- streets and things like that. The infrastructure that is created with that system, in the first place, costs quite a bit of money if the developer puts it in, which usually they do. The maintenance cost to that, the replacement of it over a period of time, is far more than its initial cost. That's one of the main things that are breaking communities right now. They can't keep their infrastructure up. They can't afford it. They've done every mistake in the world and they just keep doing it. Now, what does it take to change things? Maybe this is what it takes - they're going broke.

Q8. People who are starving would be interested in some kind of an answer because it's going to get that way, Jane, I'm afraid. Look at the world. The amount of people that are starving is huge. We've getting people in Mexico and some of our neighbors...well Mexico is the only neighbor that's really worrisome, that are going to be a real problem, more than they are now. You get people that are starving and they're going to do something and it's not going to be good.

General comments: I have lived in the Verde Valley since probably about 1972 and I was in Flagstaff before that and in the Phoenix area and I used to come down here to get warm...you know, just kind of flowed into it. [interaction w/the river] On a personal basis, the beauty and the resource that it is strong in my mind so that's certainly the most important reaction that I have to it. But, some of my properties are irrigated by it and all of them benefit from it. So, I have an awareness that that's part of everything I do here -- a very important part. And, it would be good if everybody thought that way and they would if they could just get it in their heads what it is because it's not like anything has to happen to make the potential and the wonderful things about the Verde River and how important it is here, but I can tell you that if it's weren't for that being here, the Indians that first came here wouldn't have been here. We would not be here and to violate it in any way is like cutting your own throat.

Q9. [focus on river and $5m] Well, the Verde River, you know, connects all of these communities around here. There is no denying that in anybody's mind. And, it should be a linear park that would just

be useful for so many things. And, it would almost put this place on the map as far as a desirable place to live. That asset would be so extreme that regardless of how much the people understood, if they just did that it would be the big start of changing this thing into where we, as a community here all along the Verde River, would be able to demonstrate what to do in an area like that, but also give them a sense of confidence and peace that can't be done any other way.

Interviewee: Roscoe OwsleyInterviewer: Jane WhitmireDate: 2-5-11

Q1. I would say probably the most significant is the pull-off from the Verde and subsequently the elimination of the headwaters. Right now I don't see anything impacting the river so much. In the past there was sand and gravel operations that, right or wrong, people had perceptions that the sand and gravel operations dirtied the river, but they also channeled the river and kept the flooding to a minimum. I think it was actually healthy for the river. But, there is nothing in the river at this time that I know of. There is nobody pulling aggregate out of the river or out of the river basin. I believe Mayhan materials were the last one that had the grandfathered rights into the river off of Buffalo Trail. Lee died 2001; I think it was which was when his grandfathered rights ended. I believe, normally, we had several operations on the river. You had Superior, farther up in Clarkdale you had the United Materials, I think it was, and then you had Mayhan and McCracken. Most of those were applied through the Army Corps of Engineers and it was far, basically, aggregate mining. [how long in Verde Valley?] Living here full time it would be 24 years. When I was a kid I was up here. In fact, I worked for Mayhan's when I was in high school through the summers so I knew what their operation was then. I was living in Buckeye then.

Q2. I really don't know. The general public, I presume they understand how the river works and that our ground water is directly related to that river. If they don't understand that then...it's pretty simple. If they look at the community, the community, the entire Verde Valley community, thrives on the river. If the river didn't exist, the communities wouldn't exist. There is no reason to be there. That's how it started...an agricultural draw from the Prescott area because the river was here. Other than that, I don't know. One thing I've always thought was kind of weird, nobody thought to make a lake -- not just for the recreational aspects of it but to control the flooding. They did it down in Horseshoe -- they took the Verde farther down and they (SRP) said we can do this and then we're going to control the water and take the water. But, with all the years since 1865, nobody has said, " You know it would be a good idea to at least divert and make a lake that would sustain the population through drought, it would also give a recreational area but nobody ever...a river running right through town and all of these towns, nobody said we ought to make a good sized lake. I don't think they thought of it as a need because a lot of people think this river has always been here; this river will always be here. The droughts weren't so bad that irrigation didn't continue and nobody thought Prescott was going to get as large as Prescott has gotten that they are going to draw from the Big Chino. Nobody thought. Who would have thought 20 years ago that Prescott Valley would be what it is now? Prior to Prescott Valley, it used to be called Jack Ass Flat. That's because that's all that was there was wild burros. From Prescott Valley into the shopping areas, it's like Phoenix. You're going, how and where do these people come from? If you grew up in this area...Prescott from I17, you take SR69 into Prescott, it was a 2-lane road.

Q3. I have no idea of any activity directly related to the river. [personal interaction with the river?] I irrigate property directly from the river through the ditch system and boat and fish on it. I don't live along the river.

Q4. The only thing I know of as economic development that exists now is the irrigation system and the direct tie from irrigated property to the cost/value of the property which is down considerably because of the economic downturn. But, it's still higher than non-irrigated property. I do know, like Cottonwood and their park systems make money based on the river. The Deadhorse State Park is an economic boom to Cottonwood because they put in a park and small lagoons for fishing and they charge [$7/car] to get into the park. The Riverside Park still has river access, right? I've been to Riverside Park on the softball fields, but I never went down but they still have access to the river for people who want to go fish or want to picnic on the river. I've never been to Deadhorse, or I haven't been there since they started charging, but Deadhorse first was, 20-30 years ago, it was just a state park that you could go. Where the river cut through they did have camp areas and a fishing area as an easy way to get to the river. I always thought then it was kind of dumb because you can get to the river everywhere. When they started charging, I heard they stocked the lagoon and then they started people to fish. I think they charge for fishing. But, it's an economic boom for Cottonwood because that's all tax money going to Cottonwood.

Q5. I have no idea. [has never seen any information or facts that promote the link]

Q6. The supporters should be everybody who lives in the Verde Valley and understand that river is it. If that river goes away, so does the Verde Valley. Cottonwood maybe not so much -- Cottonwood as an economic base in some manufacturing but a lot of it in retail sales. We're a bedroom community. That bedroom community is based...we have the largest irrigation system running from that river. Most of the communities here that are affluent communities, it's all based off irrigated properties. If the irrigated properties no longer exist, people who own hundreds of thousand dollars homes on irrigated properties aren't going to stay here. they will move on because they no longer can irrigate your 10 acres of beautiful irrigated, manicured lawns no longer exist and it turns back to desert. First of all, the groundwater we have here and that we enjoy, is river groundwater. It would not be there. There is aquifers like the (unclear) down in the Black Canyon City area. There is natural aquifers. You go deep enough, 10,000 feet, there is a natural aquifer -- great water. But, we don't have that here. I know a lot of well drillers, they don't go very deep because there is no water deep. They are pulling from the aquifer that's generated by the river. [water quality and wells] Then, you have areas like where I live. It doesn't matter what you do, you have a salt basin and your water is coming through the salt. You get a lot of alkaline salt. There is nothing you can do. My water is not so bad that it can't be usable, but it does ... every year you've got to replace every faucet, every showerhead because...that's just life. Just down the road from me, Bob Gilbert has great water and basically what happened is he tapped into the aquifer of the river -- it's not the standing aquifer that I'm in and everybody else is in that is absorbing salt content. It's just the way it happened and he got good fresh water. I think these well drillers know where the water is. They know where they can get water and they'll tell you or they'll tell you that the water I get here is unusual. I've seen people...divining for water is nothing but hocus pocus, I know it works. I've seen it work. I don't know why it works but I assume it's because there's a natural... The running of water underground creates an electromagnetic force that you're able to divine and you can...electromagnetic energy is already-established science and things are drawn toward electromagnetic energy. The divining of that water running underground creates electromagnetic energy that you're divining. I've seen it work hundreds of times.

Q7. Same barriers there have always been -- the Town of Camp Verde. We've had so many opportunities for economic development here that the town refuses to cooperate. I understand they want controls and responsible growth, but that doesn't necessarily mean... What they're doing is saying, "Well, we only want certain businesses. You can't...business will come as business comes. You

can't say, "Well, I'm sorry we don't you, but we want you over here." You take what you can get if that's what your object is -- economic growth. Some of the business that I know have been just stymied have said, "Forget it, we'll go elsewhere." It's been clean businesses. One in particular was the K-Mart warehouse. They were very adamant. This is great. We want some place as close to the middle of the state as possible, on the interstate. It was a warehouse. They were not producing anything; they store and ship it out and it would have been a hub that employed anywhere from 500 to 1,000 people. It's not just the town. I know with K-Mart, for example, I know one of the stumbling blocks was that where they wanted to build, the land belonged to Henry Shill and Henry didn't want ... He was willing to cut loose with it, but he wanted money ... a lot... I understand K-Mart going, if they'd got more concessions from the town, they probably would have took it, but with no concessions from the town...the town wanted basically everything...they wanted to rape K-Mart Corporation and, at the same time, Henry Shill was not budging. [available infrastructure] A lot of it had to do with no sanitation. The water wasn't an issue because K-Mart knew, they probably already had hydrologists on board who said, "We can put our own well in. We don't have to worry about town water." So, it was sanitation and the town not willing to concede. They could very well have put a septic system. Think about it, how much sanitary does a warehouse system need? They're not a hotel; they could have put a septic system in or even a water reclamation system that they put all over the world. The sanitary system goes in and works as a septic system but reclaims it and then that water is used for landscaping or whatever. But the town was willing; they weren't pushing the county and county controls, it was just a "we don't really care" and when business, especially a corporation like K-Mart says "We're not getting anything from them and we've got Tolleson over here who says we'll give you whatever you want, you know, because we want you here because we know it's going to promote not only jobs but other businesses coming into this area which is basically bare farm land..." It was right to 67th Avenue and lower Buckeye. In the past, they just didn't care. It was that push of "we really want to stay a small community." You want to stay a small community, but your children grow up and can't work here. They have to leave this small community to actually survive and work someplace else. You know, when it comes to construction trades, the only trade that actually employs and they employ outside of the town... If you look now, the huge, huge employers of this town which were all the construction and large construction companies, are gone. They had nothing going; even the big excavation companies like Rocky Construction, Mulcare, Fane, which not only in this county, but covered the entire state and adjoining states in road construction are dead and no work. McDonald Bros. is still open but they have no work. [sand and gravel] They had a little bit on the Burbacher property. Burbacher was nuts but C. A. McDonald made his money from Burbacher. When he basically built the farm and the catfish farm and the ponds and in doing so, he pulled the aggregate from the Verde, there at Burbachers to build all this stuff that Burbacher wanted. They he sold all of that aggregate and built his own business through that. But, basically, Ralph made C.A. because when he needed his work done, C.A. is the one who did it. There are two big lakes out there. C.A. made them and Burbacher subsequently drained them because he was an idiot. I think we have conflicting...we have people who want economic development; they can't figure out why Cottonwood is what it is and why Camp Verde is not. They want what Cottonwood ... the tax base. Every town employee wants tax base because we want a job and we want our pay increase back, our raise we want what we were promised when we took a job here. And then you have people who want to stay a small community. You can't have that both ways. And, I haven't paid attention...I don't know how our currently council is working. I don't know where they are leaning. I have talked to the new town manager. He understands. You can't be saying that. We don't have a tax base...the base we have right now is retail driven. If you don't have that, you don't have a town because the state and federal monies are going away. Property tax goes solely to the county and that's gone up exponentially for the last four years.

Q8. The town and county governments and any corporation looking to relocate here. They'd better understand what is here and that Verde River is probably the best resource here -- natural resource that there is. If I was a corporation looking to relocate and I needed water, that they understood where the water came from and the ability of the water, they would be great. But, I remember 10 years ago, remember that outfit that wanted to build a Disney-like theme park? I think they're basis was, "They've got water; we can have a water park and these things, because there is water there." You're not Phoenix trying to draw water from the Colorado, and the Verde. You're not drawing water; it's there and already established. And, it's recyclable. That water that's used at the theme park would continue on just like irrigation system and go back into the river. But that's what I think businesses would ... as long as you have a sustainable river. You know, it's not the same river it was when I was a kid, but nothing is because more people who live on the river draw from the river.

Q9. I think, for just Camp Verde, what I think would enhance Camp Verde as an economic development and recreational area is...we have 118 acres of town-owned park that we all know is never going to be developed because we'll never have the funds. It is one of those really dumb things. But, we now own it. Make a lake. Make a recreational area that will sustain the town and pay for the park land itself that still hasn’t been paid for but would pay for it and bring people here. It would sustain businesses that would function for a retail outlet for an urban park/lake. You'd have fishing tackle businesses, motels... If you had a sustainable lake that in our climate is great. You can come and fish. You don't have to worry about a frozen over lake. You don't have to worry about the extreme heat during the summer killing you -- it's like the urban lakes in the valley. It's hard to fish during the day because ... but here you can fish all day long. We do have a climate that makes people say, "O.K., I can come here all year long and fish." With 118 acre size lake, that's almost 3 miles of shoreline that people... [town and Chamber awareness of river and possibilities] I don't have a very good view of the Chamber. I have never seen the Chamber, even when I was a member of the Chamber, they did not do what I perceived a Chamber of Commerce should be doing which was promoting the town and trying to bring in fresh businesses. They were having Chamber mixers. It was more of a social network rather than a functioning Chamber. You can't be this stringent on business. If you want business here, you've got to... And, the town has always, the Town and the Chamber have always been too interconnected. The Chamber doesn't pay...I don't know if they still have only a dollar a year on the building. But, it's ridiculous. The Chamber should be standing alone. It's a separate, non-profit. It just doesn't work. [about the Chamber] Why should we go out and produce when we don't have to produce? Our salary is paid. If we have a problem, we'll just go to the town and they'll cut us a check. The Chamber doesn't...I've never seen it actually function. The Chamber in Buckeye...they were adamant about building or growth--economic growth in Buckeye. The town wasn't. And they fought. But, the businesses in town said, "Well, we're going to back our Chamber because we want to stay in business and we want to see business grow." The large portion of the council in Buckeye was farmers who did not care if business grew. They farm; they don't care about anything else. They didn't need anything. Nothing there. But the catalyst was, when businesses wanted to stay in business, the town in and of itself is most important than your farm and the farming community changed the demographics on that council to where if you look at Buckeye now...it's huge. Where before, you had farmers saying, "We don't care." They controlled, they were the money and they were the ones that sat on the council and said, "We don't really need more downtown business." I don't think [that money] exists here anymore. Before, it existed with these large construction companies - C.A. McDonald Bros, Rocky Construction, Marvin Parker. They don't even think about it; they really don't have any input now because they don't have any...they got nothing. But who it's going to be I have no idea. You would think that the town, basically the town's governing body would start going, "We don't have that huge tax base, especially when they charge quite a bit of money just to build anything here." I forget what they call it but it's a tax on building...the impact fees. If I was on the

council, the first thing I'd been looking...where is the money? The interstate is our money now. I know you can do tax, you can separate sales taxes into geographical areas within...district tax...that interstate, all those businesses on that interstate would be your driving. I would raise the tax base out there...the sales tax base because it wouldn't necessarily directly affect the locals unless that's all you ate was McDonalds. That would be one area I'd say...let the interstate pay for our future development because it's there. People are coming up and down the interstate and they utilize those. That's why the business went there to begin with. They knew, where you've got people coming you've got money. [as business own - ties between town and river and business] There really wasn't any. I haven't seen any tie between the town. There was somebody on the council that wanted to put in a river trail system. I think that would have been a great thing because it would have brought people, especially horse people, trails who ride mountain bikes, people who just want to hike on foot...if you'd have had a trail system that ran 20-30 miles, even just in the Town of Camp Verde because that river, I think they estimate around 110 miles of riverfront, just in the town limits, if you had a 20-30 miles trail system, people would come from everywhere because the trail system is already established. They don't have to basically hack their own mesquite trail...but it would have gave people who like to mountain bike, people who like to hike on foot and horse backers the ability to say, "O.K., I'm going to come to Camp Verde. I'm going to spend three days here." They are going to be in motels, restaurants, every business would pretty much be impacted by that visit for three days. That would have been a great thing. I know they pushed and pushed for it and nothing ever happened to it. I think they established their blueprints for the trail, but that was it and I don't know what it stymied. I presume it stymied, most likely, because of private property concerns. People didn't..."I don't want you coming across my ... " or when the county allowed people to go and buy meander land, and I know the sole purpose was the fact that they wanted to charge the tax rate on that meaner land the same tax rate as they do irrigated land. That irrigated property was taxed higher than property that was non-irrigated. But then they tied that meander land that people only had three acres of irrigated and five acres of meander land, they started charging that meander land property the same tax rate as the three acres irrigated. That happened in 1989. I first heard about deeded meander land in 1989-90. They said it was a great deal and I thought it was a great deal too because you got meander land that you own deeded, but you've got a straight line of 5,6 or maybe 10 acres meander...boy, what a great deal. You get to ... until that first tax bill came due and they go, "How you can tax me for worthless meander land?" And, the county says, "We told you that once it's deeded to you you'll have property tax." The river is navigable. By federal guidelines, you cannot block a navigable river, egress to a navigable river or on the river. So, then we had the fight of where I'm going to run my fence right to the river edge. No, you can't. You have to give egress and ... The river edge moves. You may have 10 acres of meander land, but after a 100 year flood, you may end up with 30' of meander land because that river will move over here and this guy over here now has got 40 acres of meander and that's the problem with meander land. But, we've had to get with our attorneys, with county attorneys, and with the Army Corps of Engineers and what their definition of egress for navigable water way says you cannot restrict somebody's access to that river along... I think it was the same as a roadside easement 15' from the water edge, you have to give them that ability. So, if they're walking along the river within 15' of that river/water edge, they are not in violation of trespassing. The big problem...a lot of people move here from California. It's a good example. They get riverfront property. They believe that riverfront property means they ...nobody can...that section of river is theirs. And, they don't believe that somebody floating down the river, say they get off at the Black Bridge, that they should be able to cross their section of the river; that's their river. [Marshall's office gets calls] The only thing we can deal with, o.k. if you've got deeded land, if you cross somebody's deeded land to get to the river, you cannot cross their deeded land. So, it's kind of a Catch-22. The only way to get down to the river below their property would be to come off of public property and come up the river. One of the big problems I see is the access points we do have do not build the park so

somebody can get canoes down there [regarding Black Bridge]; the same with the White Bridge. You have to carry those canoes. You know if you had built a ramp... It's too inaccessible other than foot traffic. The biggest complaint is that you can't get to the river even though two areas at both bridge points where you have public access but you can't really get there unless you carry in 100 yards. And, I don't understand because the forest service says, "Well, because the river will come up suddenly..." A cement ramp would not be affected by the river coming up. Even Beasley Flats you can't get to the river but that's a geographic problem. Beasley Flat sits on sand stone. I guess they could build a ramp down there, but it would be a kind of a shame because you'd have to blast out all that sandstone path there and that would...

Interviewee: Vincent Randall and Bob the BearInterviewer: Jane WhitmireDate: 2-22-11

Q1. Well, first of all, you've got to have the water. If you're going to have any river, you've got to be able to have your springs and your runoff and so forth. And, at the rate we're going there won't be any more river since we're depleting the aquifer. So, first of all, you've got to have water. [attribute depletion of the aquifer] People.

Q2. Well, they think the river is going to run forever but we learned a long time ago when they made treaties with us and said, " as long as the river runs and the grass is green that this land will always be yours" when they set aside reservations but the rivers dried up and the grass died a long time ago. And so, the treaties never were any good and I think that's the same assumption here people have is that the river is always going to run which is not true. It's taken for granted. [does population understand what it would be like without the river] I don't think they have any idea that ... how to survive with no water. I mean all you have to do is look at the reason why the big civilizations in the mid-East died is because there was no more water -- drought. [taken for granted] Yes.

Q3. Well, I think the question is more retrospect than it is today. I don't think we have any real big industry that depends on the water so to say right now in the valley. I don't know maybe ...but I think in retrospect, the mining was detrimental to the river, in fact we're still dealing with that. With the effects of the mining, Clarkdale has Bitter Creek with the mining activities, especially at Hope Well where they did a copper transfer with acid which now bleeds into the Bitter Creek which bleeds into the river. Then we have the big tailings pond that has arsenic and so forth so. And, I think what will be Clemenceau might have effects in the aquifer itself too, I don't know. But, I don't see, right now I can't think off of the top of my head, where we have had an industry within the last, well, my life time, that, except for the mines, that has affected the water. I think one of the only other possibilities is, I don't know to what extent farming being done today with the nitrates and so forth are feeding into the water. I don't know whether we do that much farming to affect the water but I know other places where fertilizers have really affected the quality of the water. [previous comments on runoffs from roadways, etc.] Yes. The other thing that affects the aquifer and the river itself, too, is your septic tanks because of the infrastructure that hopefully will catch up to where we don't have to use septic tanks any more. But I think...I know for a while there that whole section of what the old timers call "Smelter City" which is really that area north and south of Mingus Avenue in Cottonwood, you know that was all septic tanks at one time. Which, I'm sure affected the quality of the water. [Verde Village still septic tanks] Well, Camp Verde is finally dealing with that issue too. You know, the LaFonda area, I think are all on septic tanks.

Q4. Boy. I don't really know because I don't think in that process of business ventures. My concern is to save the river. So, I don't know what are the ventures would involve water. Because I think right now the concentration of business, at least until the bottom dropped out, was in real estate. I mean, you know for a while there, and I'm sure planning, Cottonwood is planning on extending their city limits on the east side of the river and take in Verde Santa Fe and so forth and so on and looking at a city of 60,000 is what I heard. Probably real estate. [opportunity to save the river through education?] Yes. There is always need to educate the greater population in what's happening. I think a lot of things that are done, said, supported and so forth are out of ignorance.

Q5. You know, as we do more and more extensive studies, like the USGS and so forth, and exactly how the structure of what's underneath us, what holds water, why is there water, shall we say sink a well here and then over about another 100 yards sink a well and you'd have to go ...you don't hit anything whereas here you might hit it at 100' or something. A lot of the information, too, is really scientific and so the general public doesn't really quite understand what the scientists are saying a lot of times. And, so I think a better understanding of what the science reports have to say and how it affects water tables, water levels. You know, just even the word recharging. A lot of people don't quite understand what recharging is and things like this. So that I think that greater environmental decisions should be made instead of dollar decisions. A lot of decisions are based on dollars instead of really looking at the environmental issue surrounding it. People move here because it's pretty; there is some water; there are springs. But the more people move in and we keep pumping water out, the springs will dry up. People need to understand that. [what dynamic will bring about paradigm change described?] Like you said, education. I think in the school system there is a physical...not there's physics, chemistry, but there's, if I remember right, there are sections concerning geology and understanding how the earth is and how it operates with the water and so forth. And then I think eventually, teach about conservation of water and I know the UofA has done some very extensive studying about reusing water. I remember they had what they called and aqua house there in north Phoenix that they built completely. It had a cistern in the ground that got the rain water which was used and also they were filtering out so that they purified the water enough, which they called gray water, which could be used for washing and so forth. Those kind of things because eventually...the more and more people we get, the more and more water we're going to use and, like I said, if we don't start using it wisely then it's going to run out. [technical op] I imagine the people that put in the cisterns and so forth, it's like solar energy. I mean the guys that make the solar panels and all those things; it's a business and in the same sense would be this type of contractors would be called in. [technology generated by the Yavapai Apache Nation] I don't know. You'd have to talk to the economic planner but it's something that they could go into. I remember when solar panels first came..or solar energy, it wasn't a solar energy, it was hot water heating and solar panels were the first to come into use. But I remember there was a group out there at Leupp on the Navajo reservation that started a little company. It eventually folded, but they started a little company that made solar panels for these solar water heaters and I remember their company was called the Solar Savages. So, yes, it's a possibility. [other ] Yes, probably the business trend will move towards the conservation area or it has to if the river is going to stay running. Otherwise we keep using it and using it and now we're in a drought system right now, so we've got to do some things. Chris Coder and I were talking about it. He was saying how Australia has really put in laws concerning how much water you can use and throughout all the water rights laws and established new ones just to conserve water. [lack of considering river as an entity] That's the thing with us. The water is always a living entity and even in the Bible, after making the earth the first thing that God made was water and the water gave life. No, there is a definite...water is a living thing.

Q6. You have your environmental groups. You have your, gosh, for the sake of me I can't remember. There's the river runners, oh shucks! There is a guy named Sam Frank that's the executive director for this area and I can't remember what his group is called. It's something to do with the river though. They are the main group that is supporting a wilderness sanction for the upper end of the Verde and so there's groups of people like this but I couldn't say who exactly. It would have to come out of people that are enlightened and understand the situation of what the river is for the Verde Valley. There is a lot of talk about it but yet when it comes down right to it, I don't know who you would say at this point in time. I don't know. [scientific studies; when do they culminate] I think they are trying. I think these water groups...I think the Yavapai County has a group. I think Chris Coder attends it. And they are very concerned people but they don't have the political wack, the political power. But, you know, but you need more people like Chip Davis. I think he supports things like this. But, a lot of the locals are more, shall we say more oriented to the business end of bringing or inducing other, whether it be in real estate or whatever, bringing in more and more and more. Like you say, somebody, somewhere has got to stand up and say, "that's enough." And how it comes about, it's got to be through a political process with...but right now the political process pretty well is stacked against these people I would say. I just thought of something. We need more people like Steve Ayres who writes really good articles about, and understand...Yes, you see, you've got science here and when they bring out a report, only people like Chris Coder and some of these people that are geologists and so forth, understand these reports so that the general public here doesn't have that background and so forth to understand it. So, somebody has to bridge the gap to bring it so we understand it and people, well, we need people more like Steve Ayres. [presenting a primer for water step-by-step understanding] It's a good point you bring up. If you remember the big issue against our sand and gravel was we were going to make...it was like we were going to dig and hole and make money and leave it. But, if you go over there today, there's fields over there. There's fields and once we get our infrastructure, our water to it, they're going to...one of them is already in use, no three of them are in use right now that ... where the rock is gone and we've done it over. Whereas the contrast between what we're doing and the guys next door. Semix [sp?] today has dug all those big holes so in order to meet the re-establishing of the land, they are dumping everything they can in there. I just passed a truck ...then they take the rock and everything and soil from over here off of Mulcare's land and are taking it over there and dumping it in there. You should go over there. We've done what we said we were going to do. There's three fields, two of them have been in alfalfa and you know it's good dirt for anywhere from 10-12 feet. [pecans orchards] Not at this time. We have what's left of what the Old Cloverleaf started, but it never did...I don't know whether the ground or nobody wanted it but those trees are stunted. I think they were just neglected all those years but I don't know...maybe up and the upper end, I don't know. There is still some work to be done on the upper end. I remember back in the 60s, the guy that owned Cloverleaf, I can't remember if it was Doc Mackee or not, but he cleared those upper fields of mesquite and did some farming up there because I remember he used to bring in crops of things like banana squash and so forth. And then he sold it and whoever got it let it lay idle and then when we got it we couldn't get water to it. That was the problem. We eventually did. But, in the meantime, oh my gosh the mesquite ... they are back. If we have to put that in production again, there's got to be some really land clearing again.

Q7. Well I think most of it is...A lot of it has to do with the attitude, to me, is of our local government because the local government is to serve the people with services. People want police protection; people want infrastructure to get water and sewer to them which is done by the local government and other services and so the local government is dependent on taxes and in order to get taxes you need people to own property or live there, so to say, so it's a kind of a catch-22 type of thing. I think you might have some leaders that maybe are sympathetic but, maybe, at the same time, the general public wants all these things and it takes money to run it so more and more real estate, more and more

companies to come in to support that system so, you know...I guess a lot of times it's, to control it would be for your general public to say, "yes, we'll allow this kind of a company to come in versus this other kind of a company." [having the fortitude and political will to account for health of the river. Yes.

Q8. I think your political leaders, your local government and especially the people. I think the more general knowledge that people have of the situation to make sound decisions on some of these things I think ... To reach only, say, I don't know how many people are on the town council, but let's say 10, just to reach 10 people instead of 20,000. [hope for the Verde] Yes. It's, I tell you, I know the reason why I go to my old swimming holes where I grew up. This is when I was about 10 years old. And it's kind of like one of our elders who is a vice-chairman said one time, "I don't know why we are talking about the river, he said, because at the point we're going there isn't going to be a river." I used to swim in 9' of water. Today, we're lucky there's a foot of water there. [old photos of the river; now just a stream] Really. Let's see, in 1998-2005, which I was Chairman, I haven't been doing it lately in the summer, but for a while there I used to cut corners and I'd come across the river there by Cloverleaf and I'd come across in the morning and it would be just above my hubs but because of the use during the day when I went back across in the evening, it was down below...almost a foot drop in the river between the morning and the event. [irrigation and people drawing water out] In 1950, where I used to swim, today it's...we had to swim like from here to the road and today it's about like from here to the corner. [talking to people and how their thinking evolves because of response to questions]

Q9. Well, I think the priority, of course, is to keep water running so you can't ...whatever you bring in can't draw so much water or, if you bring in a company, it should be able to draw the water out and then recharge it. Go back into the water system. But, there is a line there where whatever economic venture that you bring in, may not draw so much water and the river will still run, but you've also got to consider the quality because... A little while ago, we were talking about how some of the things that might affect the river, like the fertilizer farmers use, I don't know how (unclear) it is, but over on the Gila River over near the San Carlos Apache Reservation first of all the river did stop running in a community called Bylas. And, so the Apaches went to court and they had a decree settled back in 1954 with an X amount of water to run in that river into that community. So, they won the case and so the ... What had happened was upper Gila River farmers built 21 dams to water their fields so that's why the river went empty and didn't run any more except under ground. And that was extensive. So, they won the court case so they had to release the water. Well, the water did come down but the water was dirty; it wouldn't grow anything except for alfalfa and sudan grass. They went back to court and they won again and they had to put a water manager now that makes sure to test the water to make sure the water is clean to come in. That's the kind of thing that has industry and the policing is the kind of thing that maybe you...would be favorable to come into the Verde Valley...a company that doesn't really quite interfere with the amount of flow and also, at the same time, if it does recharge or whatever, it's got to be good water. That's I think, the best of all worlds. So, people do move here because of the climate and the scenery and all of these things. And I know that they have to work to support their families. But, it's got to be set up so that, to me, it's environmentally safe so that we can enjoy it for years and years to come. [tourism and concerns about ag and nitrates; organic food production and impact on river and economic development] Tourism is, you know you have your facilities and they come in and out. They, more or less, don't expand. You've got your resort; they come in; they leave. You're just channeling people through there. Whereas when you depend on people moving here then that's when your expansion... One of the things that's happened here in my lifetime, I've seen, I'm not against farmers; I think farmers are...we need to eat, but the thing about it is, remember that the Verde Valley only has so much land that is really farmable. And yet, that's the most lucrative land that people that move here want. They want to be able to live there on the river bottom area; lots of trees because of

the riparian area; the water table is not that far. So what has happened, especially in Camp Verde and what I've seen in that area down below LaFonda -- my gosh, those used to be big fields and people grew all kinds of stuff down there. Now it's all residential. And you see that...it's only one place we have left is down here where Hausers are farming. It's all like that. All back towards the Salt Mine I remember when Bob used to throw rocks at me down there. Those were all farms; now it's all real estate so what happened to it is that the farmers made more money selling the land than they did raising crops which is kind of sad. We've taken all the good farmland and put the land out of business. See, that’s another philosophy we have, is things are put for a definite purpose, so you allow that to happen.

Bob the Bear: There are just too many people, for one thing. Another thing, way back you had vegetation. Vegetation collects moisture and sends it back up into Heaven and it rains back down and you've got lots of water. Today, a lot of people move in and they pull out all the vegetation and destroy all the big trees that used to produce moisture from the air down to the earth. It's all gone. And they say, "How come we don't have rain no more?" This is where the water went that is disappearing. One day you're going to be sitting out here, you won't have shade or nothing. You'll be dying of thirst. It's coming to that and nobody understands that and nobody thinks...and that is coming -- probably 30-40 years and it will be like that here. The vegetation is the most important thing in life for everybody that's why they had a lot of water back in the old days. They had nobody pulling up plants and stuff like that so the vegetation put moisture up in the air and it come back down and they had plenty. There was plenty for everybody...animals and people. But, today, they are pulling them up, burning them up, clearing it up. And they're wondering how in the heck can they straighten it up. There's too many people. On the other hand, it's just like this also, you look at it now the judge sits there like that. A criminal comes in and they say that he killed somebody. O.K. Then they have the jury; and he has a lawyer saying this guy is insane to do what he did. So, what did they do? They just gave him to go to a mental hospital and spend some years in there and then he'll be out. Or, he'll be put in prison for so many years. Then, what do they do. They go and drain the money off the taxpayers to pay for that. Now, if all those things and laws were written from the Bible, according to what the Bible says, the Bible says, "Eye for an eye; a tooth for a tooth." If you kill somebody you pay with your life right there and then also and there'd be nobody in prison. That's the reason they've got a bunch of them in prison that's over-stocked right now. [animal reproduction in accordance w/their environment] Animals has their rights just like human beings also. If they didn't have rights like human beings, they would never, never be put here on this earth. But, they have the same rights as equal to humans and humans are destroying them. So, one of these days, whoever is doing all the destroying is going to have to face up to the penalty to pay for it.

Interviewee: Karen ReinholdInterviewer: Jane WhitmireDate: 2-1-11

Q1. I think we don't have enough regulations about keeping the river clean and also that people use water in a lot of ways that they shouldn't be, like golf courses and things like that.

Q2. I think education is always the most important thing. If people were better educated about how what they do impacts the conditions of the river, especially long-term, that would be a difference. I think a lot of times, people just have no idea so they just keep doing what they're doing and they don't realize that it's making permanent changes that can't be undone. [what would that education look like?] I think that maybe seminars, newspapers, something to educate the general populace who takes it for granted. They turn on the water and it comes out. They water their lawns or wash their cars or

whatever they are doing and they probably don't realize the impact. I think now, with the whole thing with recycling and going green and all that kind of thing, as the word has gotten out, people are much more willing to do it. I think people would be willing to do things that would help keep the river clean if they knew what they could do in measurable things and simple stuff they could understand.

Q3. I don't have any idea. I don't know...like tourist kind of stuff? That's probably the only thing I can really think of. I'm not on the river much. I burn and I don't boat. When we lived in Cottonwood, we used to go down and just kind of play at the edge and stuff but we don't fish, we don't boat, we don't do any of that stuff.

Q4. Well, I think tourism would be the most and maybe fishing. I don't really know what else would be. [think about in entrepreneurial framework] As you would well know, I would welcome any economic development in our area and I think that could be part of it. I really think in, and this is probably off topic and we've talked about this before with Camp Verde, we have such a wealth of everything here and I think we don't take advantage of it at all. So, people will come to Sedona just to see the things that they have. I think we have every bit as much of a draw here if we could just draw people in. I know that Olivia had a teacher who lived out on Salt Mine on Rockin' River Ranch. It was just beautiful. You could take like kayaks I think pretty much right from their property. I think that would be nice. Olivia did not do that but she went there to ride horses and that's how I knew because her teacher had horses. We don't boat or that kind of stuff. I think you could have a weekend package where people would come here and maybe they would do kayaking, or fishing or boating and they could go to Out of Arica. I think we really could draw people in if we'd stop chasing them away.

Q5. The tourism and I think people really need to know what's here. Camp Verde is such a...you would think that right off of I17 that it would be such a well know commodity, but it doesn't seem to be and it's never seemed to be in the thirteen years that I've been here. So, I think we really need to get the word out to tourism places, bed and breakfasts...so that we could really do a whole ... not just to come up for the day, although that could be as well, but you know really for people not to just pass through -- get their Starbucks and get back on the road, but to come and stay for river-related activities and historic stuff as well. I have always said these things; I'm not saying anything new. I've actually talked to a couple of people in town I think have the ability to make it happen and I've talked to them about getting the word out and really working at it. I've never really been clear on who stops it from happening, you know. I just know that it's always been stopped and it doesn't matter what administration is in, or who's around, so obviously there is something fundamental that's keeping that stuff from happening. You know we're supposed to have this development next to Bashas for so many years now but I think that was a sewer issue.

Q6. Probably the tourism boards and whoever keeps track of -- I don't know who keeps track of like the water. [tourism board?] I'm hoping that there is one. I would hope through the town. Really, it would be nice if it were more of a statewide thing because then we would have more capability of getting the information out. I don't know. Like I said, I'm not up on all that stuff but, it would be good if there was. I heard they're thinking of closing the Chamber.

Q7. Probably the only way that I'm involved with regard to my clients is flood insurance. I know that things have changed so that, area in Rimrock, for example, where people built and they were never in a flood plain and all of a sudden they are in that A zone, which you know is the highest flood. For me, I would not want to purchase property in a flood plain. I've seen that from the insurance standpoint enough that I wouldn't personally want to live through that. But, I think that, so you always have the

concerns about building. You know, if you're going to try and do some type of tourism, you would want to make sure that it's close enough to the river to use the benefits that it offers, but far enough away that you're not going to be in a flood plain because that would require flood insurance. [what are benefits of the river?] I think it's beautiful and it's green which keeps things cooler. For people who fish and boat, I think it's wonderful. And, a lot of people want to live right on the river and they don't care that they're in a flood plain. To me, with all my years in insurance and seeing floods happen and that kind of damage, I would not personally...and I grew up in Michigan so I had water all over the place. So, I don't view it in the same way that a lot of people do, I suppose, because for us the river, lakes everywhere, you know we just had water every place, so I don't miss it particularly here and I don't really seek it out, I would say. But, I think that's unusual. I think more people, especially people who hunt and fish would be... [attracted to Verde Valley?] I didn't move here by plan. I was a State Farm agent in Pennsylvania and my mom is diabetic and epileptic and almost died and I called State Farm and said "anything." I'll take a lateral transfer; I'll take a pay cut; scrub floors in the regional office... She lives in Tucson and I just said I'll be within driving distance so they could have put me almost anywhere. I like where I live. Actually, I live in Sedona and I think it's a really pretty part of the state. I love that we get the change of seasons, but we don't get tons of snow. I wouldn't live in Flagstaff for that reason. You know, we're not so hot, like the Valley, which I would have a hard time dealing with also. So, I think we have a very moderate climate which is really nice and you know, housing is, relatively speaking, not as bad. I think we, and this isn't the topic of your conversation, but I think our educational system could be improved greatly which I'm sure is no surprise. I just think with Camp Verde, particularly, we have, and we've talked about this before, we're half-way between Flagstaff and Phoenix. What a perfect location...we're right off the freeway and yet we do nothing, I don't think, to draw people in. And, as I said, there's probably a lot more immediately around us that I don't know about because I haven't sought it out. But, I also think that if we actually had some type of tours where people could come up from Phoenix for the weekend, or even for a long day trip, and be shuttled from place to place, and see Montezuma Castle, the Well and Out of Africa, I think it would be wonderful and I think we could capitalize on that. But, it doesn't seem there is an audience to do that so...

Q8. I would anybody who is looking to develop a business around water-related activities as well as, if it's going to establish what the impact will be for the area, I think the residents would want to know as well -- people who live here want to know if their river is going to be sustainable or... I know with, like Lake Powell, they tell you that it's dropped so many feet and that's a big concern to me. My understanding, and I don't really know this but my understanding is that, a lot of our water goes elsewhere also which is, to me, a big concern because I don't think we're going to have enough to sustain our own population without giving it away to whoever -- those evil Californians or something.

Q9. I think there has to be...so many people just have no knowledge about what's here. I think the town does not encourage it. I think that if Camp Verde ... I think Camp Verde could be a thriving town double or triple its population. Of course, when I say that people want to shoot me in the street. I don't see any reason. I mean I was thrilled to death when we at least got Alco because prior to that you had to drive to Cottonwood to get a pair of socks or a spool of thread which is just ridiculous, you know. It seems like whoever is on town council or mayor, I don't know who is all involved in it, but there just seems a real unwillingness and I think there has always been an unwillingness to see the town grow at all. My feeling is going to ... it's going to grow regardless but it would be nice if it didn't just grow with fast food places and things that would bring people here for 10 or 20 minutes or an hour and then send them on their way. I think that we have enough here, both with historic building and so on, and Montezuma Castle and Well and the river, if we could do river tours... I mean, they do it on the Salt River, there's no reason we can't do it here on a smaller scale. I think that if we had the willingness...you

kind of look at Cottonwood and Cottonwood, for a long time, and again, this is just my impression, but they really welcome businesses with open arms. They encourage people to come and really supported them in that manner and I think that Camp Verde just has done its best to keep everybody out. I've always said if they could, they'd put a barbed wire fence around the whole town and padlock the gate when the last outsider left. But, so, to me, and again, I'm from Detroit, I'm a big city girl and I...somebody said, you know if they want to have a mall here... Man, I'd take a mall on every corner but I'd just kill for a Target and a Traders Joes. I think we're in such a perfect location and if we would kind of get out of our own way, I think it could really be a thriving town. I think the businesses could do well. The people could do well. And, we could do it in a way that doesn't hurt the environment. We have to be very mindful of that. Otherwise, it's going to make it even worse than it is now. So, I don't know if that answers your question. I think if we really had a package to present to people and say... I'll give you an example. Have you been to Out of Africa? Out of Africa. I don't know if I told you but I lived in Africa. I lived in (unclear) National Park, which is the size of Massachusetts. I have really high expectations of Out of Africa. I was there when it was in Scottsdale and it was yucky -- it was not much and it was tiny. The animals didn't look healthy and I was not impressed. But, I've been to this one now several times and they have a lot of rescue animals. I think they do a good job about educating you while you're on their little buses they are telling you how they got these animals and what condition they were in and all these stories which I think is just wonderful. So, I think Camp Verde, as a town, I think we really have a story to tell in the whole Verde Valley but we really need to bring people here and not let them get off the freeway and head to Cottonwood or Sedona. I see no reason why stories couldn't be told with success about the Verde River. You've got to have stuff to offer people to begin with and then you've got to get the word out so that they know it's there. I really believe that what Sedona has done...you know, Sedona has the red rocks and they're lovely, absolutely, but I fully believe that people would come here just as they would go there, as a destination for a weekend or a week if we gave them a reason to be here. I think the sadness of it is that we just never have not since I've been here anyway. But I think it really could if you packaged it correctly. I don't know who owns the land, primarily, around the river...is it mostly forest service, is it mostly privately owned... do you know that [privately owned], o.k. so that, I think, is part of the problem. You've got to get peoples' permission probably to go past their property or whatever. So, I'm supposing that's probably the biggest issue. I don't know. I wouldn't want people coming up on the banks of my property necessarily if I just had private property and they just thought it was pretty and they'd get off their kayak and come up. You've got to have some kind of something regarding that. But, I think we could have restaurants, bed and breakfasts, tour places where you could rent your kayaks...because it's not that big. The Verde River isn't big enough to take a big boat, I don't think. So, is there anything that can be done about the depth of the river and seasonal impact? [climate, irrigation, etc. the river isn't always the same with limited accessibility because of ownership]. So, could there be something done? Could there be something done to give it more water giving it a more consistency for a business owner? So, that might be part of our problem -- what harms us in that regard, I don't know. But, I know people in Arizona are...we have a #1 per capita ownership of boats in the country in a state where there is no darn water. That always amazes me but I think it really shows that people are very fascinated by what water is here and they don't require an awful lot to be impressed and make use of it. But then, if you got a lot of people using it, and you got a lot more people using it, then you've got more problems with pollution and that would be a concern as well. I would just like to see it ...a lot more of a draw or tourists and stuff. But, I don't think that's going to happen here. I would be surprised if it did - pleasantly surprised.

General Comments: I guess I'm excited that this study is being done. Maybe it's been done in the past, I don't know, but it seems to me like it will be worthwhile to have the information because you can't know where you're going unless you know where you are and so I think that the study is a really good

starting point and, if actually anything will be done with it...if it's going to be a study and then gets stuck on a shelf someplace and nobody ever does anything with it then it would seem like a waste of time and effort. But, if the results are published/announced, however they are gotten out there, and then if someone actually does something with it...Does the town have any interest in... [question to me] Do you find that people are aware of the condition of the river?

Interviewee: Jeff SchalauInterviewer: Jane WhitmireDate: 1/18/11Place: 507 Pheasant Run Circle, Camp Verde

Q 1. The significant factors influencing the health -- first of all I hate to digress on a simple question like that , but using a word like 'health' is somewhat ambiguous because I see it mean range lands and it means different things to different people. For this kind of question it's good. I think urbanization of the banks and then also probably somewhat paving and you know hard and impervious surfaces on the borders, changes in vegetation and introduction of non-native species... those are the initial ones that come to mind. So, the paving impacts water quality because a lot of things go off parking lots and roads and into the river. The vegetation changing it may weaken the bank stability or it may actually create more of a tangle and cause more...who knows? That one is hard to manage. And then, people when they landscape they love to have things like pampas grass and all of these neat, pretty plants and some of them take off and make the river their home. And then, as well as sports fishing, and things like that - introducing more crawdads and that sort of thing. So, those are the things that come to mind initially. So, yeah, I think just to add to that to make the question more interesting - a lot of people might think that withdrawal of water for ditch irrigation is having a negative impact and you could make a point for that because at certain places and certain times of the year, certainly the ditches pull water out and redistributing it could be looked at that way. But I usually try to look at it as an expansion of the riparian area and actually for not only the good -- certainly for the good of people, but also the environment benefits from that a little bit too because the ditches bleed water back into the ground in different places creating more habitat for wildlife species and that kind of thing so I think the ditches, all-in-all, are a good thing and it's good that they have water rights on them.

Q2. There is always a lot of things that people can understand a little more in depth about natural resources. I think with the Verde River seeing it as more than just a large source of irrigation water is ...certain users of the river might dial in on that...ag users in particular whereas recreational users would see it from their own tunnel vision. I think ..I'm sure that there are things we need to understand better...water quality and water rights. We just had a discussion of...those are some things that help people understand because our water rights up here pre-date Salt River Project -- a lot of them do anyway -- other ones that may be in question. And, that's where we fall into the courts. I don't think people understand that part very well. As far as the natural systems and the ecosystems and fishing and things like that I really am not sure that they see it as a natural river unless they have been to other parts of AZ and the arid southwest because a lot of places that have a river .. it is a river but it's a dry bed of sand. When you cross over the Gila on I10... So, to actually have a river with water in it is a big deal to the region and the greater southwest. As far as understanding better, I think there is a wide range of things we can understand better but I think marketing is a big part of what people might want to understand a little bit better - that it's resource that isn't found very many places. Having the water available to us and flowing through our communities is something in and of itself. You know, one of the other things we could understand better but it opens a whole huge can of worms if how the subsurface

flow interacts with the human landscape out there. There is a lot of research that's been done on that - a lot of assumptions are made when they do look at this and the common thought now is, as I understand it, is that when you're on a piece of property probably as the one we're on right now, it's underlain by gravels and the river water is right underneath our fee right now. To try and figure out, if you could pump that water or if it's coming out of the river, that's a tough question to answer and the courts are working with us to answer that but that's going to be an issue that needs to be addressed by I'm not sure that when we try to understand things better in Yavapai County as far as water goes, it almost always adds up to another study and studies are good, and I think we have had a lot of studies, and I think it's ... you get conflicting information from studies no matter how long you do them. I think there are some things we should say -- o.k. we do understand some things fairly well and what we think is going on is this...and let's not worry so much about the next study as much as figuring out how we are going to manage that resource sustainably. [other studies] done a different way that they know will bring a different result. I think there are common things we can agree and move forward on rather than needing a new study.

Q3. That's a good question and I know I am going to leave somebody out and whoever listens to this don't hate me for leaving you out, The things that I've known for a long time -- the birding festival is a huge one. A lot of people come from all over the place and it is a huge economic engineer. The one that is up and coming is certainly the "wind industry" -- it's trying to be an industry here and it's doing a good job of it and then using the river to float to the wineries and designing tours around that - that was a brilliant idea as well. And then also wildlife tours, boating, nature tours -- this river at certain times of the year you'll see eagles, blue herons, black hawks and all kinds of wildlife beyond birds but a lot of great birds. All of that is out there too. I'm not sure that we are capturing a much of that as we could going way back to when John Parsons was on the NRCD. He did a lot of river trips to try and raise that awareness. [I think John summers in CO and winters here] What he did was design those tours to get decision makers and people -- elected officials, natural resource managers to come together for a day on the river to experience the river and actually see it first hand and to listen to some of the things that might be of concern. So, that was a great thing. The Verde NRCD is certainly involved in some activities now but they are more looking at invasive species as I understand it now. So, other things -- fishing and you know the traditional uses such as that and then also you can archeologically -- lots of sits, a lot of interesting things for those folks and I am one of them. I love to do that but the problem with marketing our archeological sites is that they get downgraded, or degraded, a lot quicker with more visitation -- a higher likelihood of people taking relics. I think that's mostly it. The train, of course, too and then the train locks in with the Blazin' M Ranch BBQ and there's an increasing number of people coming together to capture some of the economic opportunity that's here but there is a lot more. And...that's good.

Q4. I think I mentioned a couple of those in the last question. The agri-tourism...I've just been hearing about that the last couple of years where there is a float trip down to Alcantara Winery but I think I've been hearing little bits and pieces about people interested in doing tourism and education-related to the beavers and river otters and things like that -- the ecosystem, certainly the eagles and wildlife. The birding festival is one thing and there are other opportunities as well. The float trip from White Bridge to Beasley Flats, you know, if somebody wanted to do those floats I think they could do a lot of teaching and probably have a little economic opportunity there. So, I think I kind of answered what I knew about that already.

Q5. You know, I am not aware of very many o those. I have a colleague though that you've probably met and I know that Marshall has met -- Erik Glenn. He is a resource development faculty member with the Uof A cooperative extension and that's really where he is coming from. I know he is working with

the wine folks and I also know that Yavapai College has started an enology program of vita-culture or wine making and growing vines. I was just by the college this morning and I saw the vineyard and the young vines. It's big and that will actually create an economic opportunity for Yavapai College because they can start making some wine and probably selling it. Information and facts...so I think with all of the information and influx of resources that we have seen from the Walton Foundation which is, I think, may be driving or funding this project, I think that Erik, in particular, could generate even more data and ideas and things. He comes from that background. I'm not typically in that economic development world. One of the things that's been talked about for years and I was just talking to the mayor of C.V. about before the holiday break was a commercial kitchen for people to put a time slot in and process some food or can some meat or any number of activities could go into something like that. Could it be supported? I'm not absolutely sure that we could make it work at this point in time just because I'm not sure we have all the other pieces in place to feed into it yet. But, I'm not aware of a whole lot of information and facts. I know that we have flow rates of water that are gone through the river so we could calculate water quantity and quality but as far as economic impacts...I'm not aware of that many. You know, the state parks they may have some data to...especially since they were trying to justify their existence to the state legislature in a big way a year or so ago. But, I don't know that they do have that data -- but just some data about state parks are just another piece of the whole river visitation as an economic engine. [commercial kitchen] It's like people have a lot of great ideas but our laws, laws that have been designed for human health, etc., there's a lot of people that want to make and sell goat cheese and milk and even small dairies...but the way our laws are structured it makes it very difficult to do that economically.

Q6. I will just run through the litany of them. Certainly the land management agencies -- forest service, park service are big players. The park service certainly factors in right with the state parks and the national forest that brings people too. But, let's see, potential supporters certainly the small agricultural operations that are trying to come forth right now are good potential supporters. And then the natural resource conservation district has been a long term supporter kind of on and off. I don't -- I'm not sure who the new blood we can get for having potential supporters other than you know certainly cooperative extension. We do a lot - that's who I work for -- and I have a full time professional that works with me doing water resource education county-wide. She certainly hears a lot of things about the river. We meet often about different opportunities and things that are going on. Her name is Edessa Carr. We kind of hear different things. But in the case of what some of the things that are floating out there, so to speak, there is a new program called Conserve to Enhance so it's taking -- it's modifying existing uses of water to lower the use of water save for a ditch or something like that to put more water in the river to try and enhance the viability of that system and usually when we look at those things we try not to pit one interest against the other if somebody is willing to do that or if we can conserve a certain amount of water in our landscapes or use water conserving techniques on ag lands...those are opportunities to save. I'm not sure that we have a huge motivation here to put water back in the river because everybody know, and everybody .. not hard data or anything, but we send more water to Phoenix, it just goes down for more people to water Bermuda grass that gets mowed and that's the end of it. So, that piece of it I do see the push-back from people -- why should we conserve just to give it to the folks in Phoenix. That is a very convoluted and complex issue. I think it can be addressed but it is going to take a lot. And the wildlife and the habitat always gets short shrift when it comes to the water. I remember probably twelve years ago or more that the Fish and Wildlife Service was in town here in C.V. trying to promote people to conserve habitat on their lands and they were met with fierce opposition. But I kind of think that the tide has changed enough that I think people are willing to hear some of those ideas. There is enough other people here that would make the dialogue a little bit more interesting and have more well-rounded views of it rather than why should I tell you that I

have an endangered species on my property just so you could come on my property and tell me how to live. The Fish and Wildlife Service has had a hard time getting out of that mold but they have done some good projects and they need to market those too. Potential supporters..I think a lot of the new farmers that are coming along are trying to organize and it's not just the wine consortium...it's some growers but they are much more loosely knit together. I think it's kind of the lifestyle and the way they view the world that promotes or keeps it that way. But, at the same time, I know that they are in major support of the river resource and they continue to rely on it for their irrigation too. I think there is that faction that hasn't probably come on board yet. A lot of people look at all of the ditches that are in the whole Verde Valley and they see that as taking away from the natural ecosystem. I think there is a way to certainly -- certainly you can look at it that way. But, on the other hand, like what I said earlier, expanding the riparian area and delivering water where it wasn't previously - I think it's good not only for people but for wildlife and the whole ecosystem in general. Hopefully somebody is interviewing Andy Grosetta for this project. He gives a really great talk about his family history and how they have farmed and ranched along the river. His father and grandfather were involved in the mines and there is this whole story to tell and it doesn't get told very often but he tells it well - how the valley has changed over time. I'm not coming up with new supporters in any great numbers -- Audubon is not new- they support but I'm not sure there are a lot of funds that would come from them.

Q. 7. The water rights questions - both on ditch diversion side and the Holocene alluvium side. We are pumping water out of the river zone. If we had a well right here where we are sitting it could be seen as pumping water out of the river that we don't have a right to. It has to get sorted out. It's a potential barrier for sure but I don't know if it will end up being one - it could. I also think that at some point we are going to look at the beneficial uses of the water and we may look at things that aren't being farmed differently from areas that are being farmed. It seems like landscape wise we could encourage lower water use for the beauty side - to landscape our places. But I think when you tell people that we are growing to say we want to grow food too. So, we teach them how to grow food. There are a lot of pecans around here -- it is a water consumptive crop but it has historically been here and people here know how to manage them. They do have value. The pecan and wine festival is another tourism opportunity that I didn't mention earlier. There are opportunities. But for the people who don't have sheep or horses or things like that but they're flood irrigating their property each time - I've heard lots of stories about water being applied - a lot more than is needed. So that, I think, that could be a barrier in the fact that we are not using the water resource that we have to its full potential. Rights...Use it or lose use are ways to look at it. I really don't think that the ditch companies are really trying to stand in the way of anything. They are just trying to defend their historic rights. Personal property rights - that's a huge issue here in the Verde Valley in general. The traditional population here really sees it as their valley and with an influx of newer population moving in, there has been an 'us and them' mentality created and whatever we can do to dispel or brush that aside a bit more is going to be a good thing too. But there are plenty of laws and regulations -- two that I mentioned - pumping and health and safety regulations...so anyway there are... it's a difficult thing to do because historically the people in this valley do not collaborate well for whatever reason - I don't want to try and guess what that is. I imagine it revolves around personal property rights and tenure on the land - that seems to be the driving factors. If people w/tenure on the land can start seeing things from the eyes of the new people and new people listen to stories about historic uses of the land,...that's the reason I mentioned Andy Grosetta -- I always encourage Master Gardeners to have him as a speaker because he brings it right down to the rich history and why the valley is here, ditches are here and people are here. It isn't because of the beautiful place that it is but because of its' ability to produce food, minerals, fiber and meat and all kinds of products. Just because I'm here now I don't have the right to tell people to stop doing that. I don't hear as many complaints any more, Jane, about public land grazing -- I don't hear as many as I used to and

every time I do it's real easy for me to try and tell people how sustainable range grazing really can be. And so people do not like to see cow pies next to the stream and things they recreate on and that's understandable to a certain extent. But on the other hand, all of the wildlife species do their business there as well. It's a redistribution of nutrients and actually if you have a healthy riparian system it can buffer all of that. Anyway...I'm probably rambling.

Q8. Certainly the ... well I don't know if the municipalities and decision makers are going to be that interested in everything everyone has said, but I'm sure the skillful editing by the folks working on it will bring the most salient points into some executive summary format so that people...and then if they want to reference certain peoples' thoughts and ideas they can. I think that cities and towns and Yavapai County and maybe Coconino County since they are in uptown Sedona...but also I would think that Yavapai College since they are teaching and trying to promote and/or look for opportunities for more vineyards and more wineries. I think the pecan growers...I'm sure that Dick Tinlen is on the list. He has a lot to say about how he would use the data and I think , certainly the UofA and my colleague, Erik, who is working with some of these groups would certainly be very interested. He would know, I think, how to read between the lines a little bit to say that it seems to me that we've got some big opportunities, in general, in this area that we aren't capturing yet. From the wine side of things we probably have the organizations more in place than we do the vegetable and truck crops -- you can pasture chickens here and when they are pastured the buyer likes the eggs a lot better most of the time. So, going back, others that might be interested -- the federal agencies need to be sitting at the table with ears open to listening -- for instance, even though they are not going to get involved in the commercial side of things, if we decided that we had a huge opportunity for off-road recreational vehicles here I'm sure they would be listening really hard. I'm not saying I have talked to them about that at all - I think it's probably part of the picture but I also think that if the study indicates we have opportunities in that area we need to think of a really good way to manage it. I think the forest service would be very interested in that. Beyond that there are lots of models that universities have -- information -- if that was indicated as something, and personally I hope that it is not and I hope that doesn't offend anyone listening to this but...we've got to be ready for the results of it whether we like it or not...the unintended consequences are always there. From top to bottom I think all of the land management officials are going to be interested in it and then entrepreneurs that might have opportunity here would have to figure out how to get the word out to them and that's Erik's area. He lives in Tucson but he is up here a lot and when we need him he's up here and he also works in Coconino and Mohave County so he spread kind of thin. We are lucky to get a little bit of his time and expertise and I think he could bring a lot to the table in interpretation of the data.

Q9. I get a lot of people, especially in the winter months, calling me from places like Montana and Washington State, going boy I want to start a small farm somewhere. The first place they look at is Prescott. I tell them there is not a lot of water there and the climate is not as conducive. You might to look at the Verde Valley. Well, the irrigated properties are expensive but the growing season that you are going to get and the delivered irrigation water, all of those things, are hard to beat. So, if there were a way to at least develop, I don't know, I'm not an agricultural guy even though I work for an ag college, I'm a natural resources person, but it would seem that economic development professionals can develop business -- a template business plan - how much acreage, market, etc. you need -- I know that these things exist and that's what the economic folks really look at. The things that we've talked about - agriculture certainly has a great potential in this valley to be increased. A focal point - well, you know there is nothing as good as getting people on the river in a boat of some kind - preferably. But even if they won't go that far, just do some tours and just have somebody explain. O.K. the Verde River open house. Here is somebody talking about ditches, someone about wildlife, someone about invasive

species, somebody about water quality and/or a course they would go to one place and then take a field trip to get those pieces. I think there is a huge amount of opportunity in the area of agriculture as well as tourism and so putting those opportunities out there and trying to promote them I am, again that's not my area of expertise, but there are ways to do these things. So, regional economic development then - this is one thing that Camp Verde has, on and off, done pretty well - try to organize events that bring people from Phoenix. It's so close to Phoenix - you can be here in an hour -- in the summer it's cooler and in the winter it's nice and crisp. So, you get them up here and if they have a good time they will want to come back. It's an easy day trip for them. I think there is -- if we had the agricultural products and then the value-added side of it - the commercial kitchens and other products, people would have additional reasons to come. I think with Sedona here that is all kinds of culinary opportunity. There is a lot of fancy restaurants that will utilize locally grown produce and pay a premium for it and the growers will feel pretty good about that and so will the restaurants. You know the bird festival I think was an idea well before its time and those are the kinds of things - and I bet we have economic data telling us how much that particular event brings us. What other opportunities do we have to do things like that? We could have otter days; bald eagle, etc. The incredible...I always remember the Camp Verde Pecan and Wine Festival is always around Valentine’s Day and there are always geese flying over. I picture that and I love the sound of them. Probably, on the natural side of things, there are experiences there, Going back to the off-road vehicle kind of idea, I recently took a trip to Alaska this summer. What I saw up there was people hopping onto 4-wheelers and going everywhere -- ripping things up on a tour that didn't seem like it was very environmentally friendly. And so, I think as we move forward and the adventure... where the plan is headed - we need to pay close attention to what we are doing to the environment whatever it is that we do. Even if it is farming, people can over-fertilize their fields and it will and can -- will likely cause some of those negative impact that we will have to deal with. We will learn from California and other places that have more water to plant buffer strips at the end of the field before the tail water gets returned to the river so the plants can maybe take up some of the excesses that are there and prevent erosion and some of those kinds of things. I would hate to see us -- the Pink jeeps are a huge driver for the economy in Sedona, I'm not personally very approving of that type of recreation because of the limited few that benefit from it and the lasting impact that it causes to the environment. I think they buy a special use permit that allows them to go on forest service lands. They probably have to tell the routes they are going to use and how many times they are going to use it. But since it's mostly on hard rock -- how badly can you hurt hard rock. But it gets tire marks, oil on the rocks and people know where ruins are now ...there are always those kind of things that cause other impacts -- unintended consequences. So, I don't know. I've thought that we had this jewel here as we talked before the recorder came on. Ever since I've seen C.V. and the whole Verde Valley there is a lot of opportunity here. At one point in time I heard they were going to build a resort in Perkinsville. Did you ever hear that rumor? I was nervous about that and the terminus of the train could have been another Disney Land or something out there -- boy, there we go. On the other hand, Out of Africa and I haven't been through there - I've listened to the lion's roar when I filled the county vehicle out there, but it looks to me like it is a viable operation and it doesn't have as many negative environmental consequences as it has positive on the economic side, I think things like that have a place here too. Who knows, maybe they will be the partners of the future to help us look at our native animals here or somebody like them that has -- it would be great to have some river otters and beavers so that people could go and watch and observe like they can at the Sonoran Desert Museum. I don't think that we are ready for something like that right now but if we want to promote the environment what better environment to do it than something like that -- it's top notch.

[recommend interviewees]: Erik would be good to interview and Edessa Carr. Edessa is in the same building as I am. 928-445-6590. She is really good. Erik is actually down on campus. Email me for his

contact information or get it from our website even though he is not on the ground here all the time. Certainly, I mentioned Andy and Dick Tinlin. Maybe someone from the park service -- I imagine the director for the local area and Max Castillo. He has been here a long time. There is a geologist in Sedona - Paul Limburgh (?) if you want a geological perspective. There is a geo club that does field trips - a Yavapai Co. group. It's a high level group. They are all PhDs who are out -- with others. Paul is at the core of that. He lives in Prescott but...if you need somebody with an environmental outdoor recreation perspective -- Henry Dahlberg. I'd be glad to give you his contact information. He owns Mingus Springs Camp - an environmental kind of a camp but it is a small camp on Mingus. He is very proactive in applying for water quality grants; citizen science and all kinds of really cool stuff. Even though he doesn't have his roots deep here, he probably has really good ideas. I think we've probably named enough but I'll shoot more to you if I think of them.

[money to spend] Some sort of a visitors center might be an interesting way to go so the people can learn the history of the area including the mining and even the Native American trade routes that came from the Hopi mesas and went to Jerome to collect the mineral things and then coming up into the modern day and giving them a little bit about ditches and could even intertwine water rights issues and water being a precious resource here in the arid southwest. There was a building that was going to house everybody -- NRCS, cooperative extension...a building out by the interstate. [intro to the Verde Valley] I haven't mentioned the tribe and they are going to be a good match for all of this because not only were they here a long time ago and have their cultural history, etc. but they are still practicing agriculture here too -- both on a larger and backyard scale. So, we've got all of the archeological sites or many of them - Tuzigoot, Montezuma Well and Castle and others, so I think the Tribe could be a big part of it and that's a pretty good location - a good exit. I think C.V has a lot of potential too for something. Cottonwood is 20 minutes north of the I17 corridor so if we do anything we have to be cognizant of the I17 corridor. It would be really nice to have some sort of visitor center close and so you could see the river -- where it looks nice -- which is always a relative term - but where it flows fairly clear most of the year.

[study concerns] There is nothing that concerns me negatively. Positively -- information strengthens our ability to do the right thing with our resources and to plot our future. So, I think it all seems very positive. I think it is great how the Walton Foundation has provided this influx of development dollars here and boy if we can prove that we are doing good things with it, I think we can continue to do good things with their help.

Interviewee: Traci SchimikowskiInterviewer: Jane WhitmireDate: 2-15-11

Q1. Now, when you're talking about health, you're talking about overall the Verde River, itself, so we're talking everything from public use to habitation to all the trees and such. From my personal perspective, is we're talking public use, I think, and people not understanding the importance of our waterways and how they affect our everyday living. We also have vegetation along the Verde River that is not natural vegetation, I don't know whether or not going in and removing some of those things is possible. But, a lot of it just has to do with a lack of understanding, I believe, and what it can be utilized for as far as just for recreation. People just need to understand our planet more than they do and I can even say I don't even understand our planet as much as I should. So... You know, carbon footprints and trash and people just not caring any more. They're just ... Our youth seem to be lax in wanting to keep something

healthy and beautiful and sustainable. They just want to tear it up and make it look trashy. And, I'm not sure if that's fully answering the question that you're asking but... We need our Verde River. [elaborate on understanding how Verde River impacts daily lives] My thought on that is coming from an ecosystem and it can be so intricate that people tend to overlook and just go, "Oh, it's just a river" you know without really trying to understand the ecosystem and maybe if there was a way that it was brought down to layman's terms that, almost written in what I would call Kindergarten level books, like what you read about Montezuma Castle, maybe that would help. Just something to give a better understanding of it and how it works and the functions of the river. I realize that parts of like Beaver Creek go underground. Is there something like that? Does that happen with the Verde? We realize water dissipates... Again, we go back to the vegetation, we have not natural vegetation along our Verde River so people go in and will try to redirect its pathway. That's not good either because its pathway is designated for a purpose and when people go in and build up reservoirs or any type of berms of anything like that to redirect it, it's more erosion that happens in an area that should have never happened. [more about youth and examples] I would say it falls into the young adult category -- 16-maybe 25, if they haven't maybe been instructed by their parents or just even learned, in general, over the course of their growing up years, to respect our land, there is no respect and thus the problem of trash and waste and, you know, 'who cares' type of thing, or even campfires being left going. There just seems to be that, "eh...I don't need to worry about that right now." If somebody else will take care of it. I don't see that in the generation that's growing up now. I see more of kids being concerned about our planet and its state.

Q2. I believe I hit on that with the first question.

Q3. Now when you're talking about economic development, can you help me understand where you all are looking at with regard to that? Are you talking about the building of things or utilization of the river... [whole range of economic development in this region] One thing that I know of is that we have a tour guide that uses the Verde River for his commercial business. He is not located here. He was working out of a business in Sedona but I believe he's gone now into his home. From what I understand, he's looking here to Camp Verde to have like sort of a storage area to keep the inflatable duckies and things along those lines. But, the forest service controls that side of things too and they only allow so many guides permits to be able to run tours down the Verde River and I think that helps with the wear and tear on our river and our public lands and, of course, on private lands because through the process private lands have to be accessed to get to those places. [permit issued by forest service] It's my understanding that particular company is the only permitted guide on the Verde River and that might be something that may need to happen more often is that if they're going to do tours and such and educate people on the Verde River, especially if it's for a commercial purposes, that they limit the number of people that can access that and use it and that's the only one that I know of. I don't know of any bricks and mortar type of economic development activities that are taking place. Most of that, from my understanding, is pretty restricted. You can't build anything within, like we were talking about earlier - it's meander land so it's really unbuildable property. I will mention something that was told to me and I don't know if I'll get this exactly right but at some point in time, I'm not sure of its location, along the Verde River, there is a ton of concrete that's been dumped in it. I gather you know where that is. I do not. And so here we have a dumping issue that will destroy a natural river and I don't know how you fix that one but... Other than, if they know who did it, it's that person that gets the violation and subsequently has to pay to have it removed whether it's they personally have to remove it or they have to pay the government back -- whoever has to remove it. And that's unfortunate because then it goes back to someone who is not appreciative of our environment and the ecosystem. To do that in the first

place; it just flabbergasts me. I go, really? Of all places...and the Verde River? I mean, why couldn't you have contacted somebody to ask about dumping somewhere else?

Q4. Oh my goodness. That's a really good question and I've never really thought about it. To be truthfully honest, I just haven't. I don't know if it's something similar to what Clarkdale is trying to do with their sustainability park. Maybe something along those lines...I don't even know if that's possible. But, we obviously need to utilize the river in some fashion to keep some sustainability going through Camp Verde. There is a lot of irrigation, as we all know, a lot of farms, crops, agricultural lands that needs to still be maintained and I don't know where all ... where the water comes from that so I don't know if it's fed from the Verde River into the canals. So, I would suspect that that's something that we definitely need to maintain. We certainly wouldn't want to lose those lands because they are producing things for our community, like food, which we definitely need and that might even be more of something that could be done to...more agricultural lands, maybe a community garden of some sort, where we could grow our own. And, I know that the Verde Valley agricultural coalition or committee, a group that's been created, has talked about something like that. [ community garden] That's where you have the commitment from people who have those gardens and that's always challenging to get -- people don't, yeah, they want it but they don't want to take care of it.

Q5. Well, I think one of the things they're doing...aren't they having a Town Hall event that's coming up pretty soon about this? There is something coming up next month. I have the information in my office and I'm not really sure who is sponsoring it, but I heard there was going to be some kind of Town Hall event coming up about the Verde River and its economic importance [probably Greg Kornrumph] That's one thing that I can think of to get information out there. Other ways, I mean, I realize we have newspapers and such, but online...you know, access to information on line. [people asking about river] Not really. When we have people coming through the Visitor's Center, they are more interested in what there is to see and do. Some people want to fish; some want to kayak and they're looking for activities, but that's usually about the extent of what they want to know about the Verde River from an ecosystem standpoint, or environmental or economic development.... [tourists and what they know about the river] When I tell them that 18 miles of the Verde River, they look at me and go, "Yah, really?" They haven't a clue. And, I don't think it's simply because it's the Verde River, but the concept of water in the desert is beyond conception in some cases because when people think desert --- water, what do you mean water in the desert ..and so when they find out we have the Verde River and we have Beaver Creek and we have Oak Creek Canyon, they are all like, "Wow, really, there water up here!" Fossil Creek too. In that regard, it's just maybe a lack of information. [relationship to economic development] Economic development, for me, comes in from a tourism standpoint because it brings people into the community and tourism is an economic driver. People come to the area; they spend dollars in our community; they stay in our community; eat and shop, etc. and they explore. I don't know what's going on in our school systems now. With my kids being grown and in their 20s, I don't know how educated our children are being with regard to, not just the Verde River, but the importance of water in Arizona, in general. I'm not real sure, to what level, and if there is anything being done about that. And, maybe there is something being done in the history classes and in that area, but I don't know if there is anything specific. Maybe once the kids reach college level and they determine, you know, whatever career path they are going to pursue or education level they're going to go into, only then would they begin to have knowledge of the true effects of the Verde and the value of the Verde and all of our waterways. [children when they were young; now they do] Because when they were in their late teens and such, all they wanted to do...there was nothing for them to do and nothing for them to do meant there was no place for them to go play or skate or do video games. It was all about the video games..everything was on the TV. So, it has shifted for them now.

Q6. You know I would have to say that all of us have to be involved in that...not just any one specific group or entity or person. I believe every single one of us need to be knowledge; or at least have just a basic information to understand and even talk about the Verde. [how does information get out?] I would say in maybe a tri-fold pamphlet. You wouldn't want anything bigger than maybe an 8 1/2 x 11 folded in three ways that may be printed on each side. Because, anything more than that is just too much information and people go, "Oh, my gosh." [what should be included in the tri-fold?] Bullet pointed information about the Verde; economic development with regard to the Verde; ecosystem with regard to the Verde, sustainability with regard to the Verde, activities with regard to the Verde. [sustainability w/respect to the Verde River, what does that mean?] Water and having it not dry up.

Q7. Interestingly enough, this one was in a very similar discussion with Steve. I talked about property owner rights. I would truly see that as a potential barrier because people don't want, you know, folks walking along their property to get to the Verde and that's the part that still confuses me because you can't own a waterway, so how can you stop somebody from accessing a waterway? Because, once you enter that waterway, you're really on nobody's property and so that would be the one thing that I would see as a potential barrier are the property owner rights. And, getting cooperation from those property owners and helping them understand that they are not going to have 50 million people, lots and lots of people traipsing through their property. It would be something that would be controlled, limited, maybe there is a way to put a gate up that they know that this is the only way they can access. That way that property owners, you know the rest of their property, isn't being marked up or utilized or whatever. We always forget about the critters that are along the river. They have to have a home. Laws and regulations, probably. I don't know the laws and regulations with regard to the waterways other than the fact that I know you can't own one. But, maybe if they're more friendly toward the property owner and vice versa, you know if there is some cohesiveness and maybe some mutual understanding...I don't know that that's an option or possibility...and it's going to go back to educating people to understand everything that there is to understand about it. And, not so much, forcing them to offer up a portion of their property or an access point or something like that, but maybe compromise. If you'll allow us to do this, this is what we'll do ...

Q8. I would think developers of any sort, our towns, our government entities, Chambers of Commerce and, of course, the public. But, I think that's about it. We all would be interested in knowing the findings that come out of this. [specifically developers' interest] What they can and cannot access. Where they can and can't build or utilize or cut off or restrict.

Q9. Wow. I think the Verde River needs to be understood in pretty much all the things that I've mentioned in the course of these questions. And I wonder if, until the Verde River is truly understood at its potential, that regional economic development might have to take a back seat for a little bit -- until -- because we wouldn't want to ruin something that's a natural part of our planet...a natural part of our community. You know the Verde River is vital along with the other waterways we have in the Verde Valley and, even with those, I think we truly need to understand the importance before we pursue any type of economic development. When I use that term, I'm using it kind of in a sense of bricks and mortar type economic development. [what about Verde River celebration in Camp Verde?] I think that would be way cool. And, that day, or however long it is, people, very similar to what Cottonwood does with the Verde River Days, I don't see why we couldn't mirror something like that because it brings in hundreds of people. Their classes sell out weeks before the event and that, I believe, would help even understand this side of the Verde. I realize they're talking about the Cottonwood size of the Verde, but, you know, to be able to provide some educational activities ... because it all connects. It's all Verde.

That would be something I believe would be really helpful and it would attract all types, all ages, all interests and I think you would capture a very large audience in helping educate people. No other ideas at the moment. I'll be thinking about it.

General Comments: [$5 million] Oh my goodness! Wow! Every time I think of sustainability and economic development, I think of the Clarkdale Sustainability Park and I remember, and I think it was Doug that might have said this, that he hoped that this would be something that other communities would be able to ultimately do in their own to where we could all kind of feed off of that, or compliment. I would say something to mirror that -- maybe not necessarily the same because each community has something different but something, like you said, that would compliment a very similar project here in Camp Verde. Yeah, because what works for Clarkdale doesn't work for Cottonwood and what works for Cottonwood and Clarkdale may not necessarily work for Camp Verde. I am anxious and excited to hear about what all of this has come to be. I'm curious as to what the findings are going to be...I really am...because the perspective of each of us as individuals will vary. But, again, I also think in some cases, there might be some very similar things...maybe we may not have said it the same way, but we're talking a very similar language and we all know it's a concern. It will be interesting to put it all together.

Interviewee: Tom SchumacherInterviewer: Jane WhitmireDate: 1-26-11

Q1. Well, certainly in the past few years the amount of rainfall we've had, or lack of it, depending on that for the life of the river is one thing. As we see, going into drought kind of drought situations in that same time the population increasing and demand on the river increasing at some point there's got to be, going back to my budget thing, there's got to be a point where you say, "We've got to stop; make something else happen here." So, I think just the people and the use of the river is certainly the largest and most significant factor. As we continue to grow, and then hopefully the towns or area will continue to grow, the river is also the thing that draws people here. Fly over the Verde Valley sometime. You see the green streak going through where the river is so it's very significant that way. And then, of course, like I said, the influence of the rain and... [river as an obvious draw or ...] I think it's the kind of thing that people make the connection. It's...people come here because it's the Verde Valley and they learn that it means the "green valley." Depending on where they're coming from, you know my first encounter with the Verde River was coming from the east coast and I said, "Why is this bridge here, this huge bridge over this little creek?" So, for me, it was actually learning the culture of leaving in the desert and how precious water was. And then, actually coming to find out that this was a burgeoning river here. A river water source in the Verde Valley. So, I think people who come here come to appreciate it. Then, of course, there is the whole recreation side of it where people definitely come just for the water. So, there are kind of a couple different groups there.

Q2. Well, I mentioned the use and the lack of another source filling it up. I'm happy now that there is a lot of snow on the Peaks because I know that is going to charge the water back up for us. I hope always that it is enough. We need to understand that with that water, there are many more things that it brings too. Some of the obvious stuff ... it grows things and stuff is green but what about the birds that come in; what about the other wild animals. That's also part of the whole ecosystem as well. So, people need to understand that and the importance of that. Birding is a big attraction to this area as well. If you take away that water source, they are just not going to come here. [obvious part of college

curriculum - student awareness] I think there is an awareness. I would say that the awareness is more, again the people coming in, the students, or the typical student that we have that was maybe raised here, that's one of those things that is always there. I think when people leave and come back, the awareness is greater. And then they start associating water and the bigger things like, you know... They travel to Las Vegas and they see the bath tub ring as they go across the dam there then it kind of hits home to them...this water is really...we're using the water up. It really is an issue.

Q3. Well, there are several things. One of the things that I/we here at the college are involved with here lately is the new viticulture stuff that's going on. I know of several commercial tours that are using the river. I think they're calling it "Water to Wine." They're actually stopping at one of the local wineries -- The Alcantara, it's part of it and it's quite the draw. They get to see the scenic part; they get to see some of the wilderness; they get to stop there and partake or not. But, to see the esthetic beauty then of this winery and the vineyards all laid out. [college involvement in developing business] Not per se. But we are working with, and will be starting hopefully this summer, with some interns. We'll actually be working with them in our interaction would be, first of all, would be for jobs. But, with the interns, we're hoping to get some of our science people, especially biology types, interested in doing it. So, now you have somebody who can actually speak to, you know, what this tree is or what this water does or what that fish is in there. So, I can see this becoming more and more of a part of it. I was happy that they did reach out to us for that. Then, of course, just the...when we're talking the river, you know, we have that beautiful state park here too with Deadhorse. Without the river, we wouldn't have those lagoons and things and a lot of people come to camp there so that's economically bringing some things in. They hunt and fish and do that stuff around there too. So, I think there's a lot of it out there. Maybe not on a grand scale and maybe you don't want to get to grand scale. I kind of like the idea of the rafting thing because that's not going to hurt things that much.

Q4. I think another thing that they do, again speaking of Deadhorse, the whole Verde River Days thing and I think you can tie that in to more of the history, the Verde River, Tuzigoot, what Tuzigoot was. I mentioned coming here from the east coast. I went to an art school on the east coast and in a ceramics class these people were talking about the largest pieces of hand-built pottery found in the United States. This was an east coast instructor who couldn't pronounce the word "Tuzigoot" was saying this place was in Arizona and here we have it in our back yard. So, I use that in art classes and bringing people into that so I think that kind of tourism thing that now we're tied to a national monument with it. [connection with humanity] Absolutely. And, the precious water. You know, they were there and that clay was there because of that river.

Q5. Well. We talked a little about tourism. You know, ecotourism is becoming more and more, I think especially with some younger people, more and more important. I have a daughter who is, she's a sophomore in college now, she came to me last week talking about, "Hey, have you seen this article on Sunset Magazine?" I went Sunset Magazine...now that's not something I would normally think you would be reading, Katie. She goes, well, it's this whole thing about people are coming west for sustainability...for seeing sustainable things happening and colleges and universities are starting to talk about this kind of stuff. So, it's attracting a whole new... Again, I don't associate a 19 year-old with being real hip on Sunset Magazine, but that article caught her eye and obviously somebody turned her on to it. But, I think it just, again, that potential and then we can say, you know, Doug Von Gausig with this whole sustainability park, it's out there. It's a concept but it could be that thing to bring people to say, "We can live together with this and this is how we've done it." I think that's a wonderful project and can be a model for other small communities to do. And, maybe from that, hopefully larger communities. But, you know, you've got to be out there and kind of visionary and conceptually thinking

about those kinds of things so I think there is potential for those kinds of...the economic development side of it, just to become that model to bring people in to show them that this can be done and this is how...and it brings people together. And then all of the ancillary things that come with it. You know, you bring people in and they are going to eat, they're going to stay some place. It benefits you in lots and lots of different ways.

Q6. Well, you are here at the college. Certainly, the educators because they can give you the perspective on things both ways. If we go this way, this can happen. If we go that way, this can happen, which is what we do. We teach people critical thinking -- to think that way. Know those consequences and you're going to be making these kinds of decisions all your life, so I think that part of it fills in. So, we do that certainly through our library. You know, we have all that information and we have historical information about the river. We have...the college did a, back 25 year ago now, but we did an archaeological dig and we have all of that information and we tied some of things they actually found from that we have on display but it goes back to its' here because the clay was here, because the river was here, because civilization could sustain itself. So... [daughter's awareness; connection with NAU and college] We do somewhat. Our connection with NAU is primarily transfer level kinds of things in more, probably mostly in general education, because we are only a two-year school. We don't have that luxury to get into the research kind of part of it. That stuff they do in their upper level courses and like that. So, but we certainly work closely with them on a lot of different things. [involvement for undergrads to participate in upper level research] We've talked a lot with the UofA because they have their, I believe it's called the VBar Ranch, they have a research ranch up here and we're actually trying to work some things together in conjunction with them because they have it right here already which is nice.

Q7. Well, you've got, for the good or bad of it, you do have people, there are many people and landowners around here who have been here for a long time and it's being able to convince them that are maybe some better ways to do things. I don't know that cattle and farming or raising was good or bad for the river. But certainly it influences the river. The cattle are going through it and if we have a scenic area and want everybody to swim down there, that's not going to be the area they need to swim through. So, some of the barriers would be that some of the old school thinking and a lot of those folks when they hear words and terms like 'sustainability' that gets back to the education that we're not really asking you to do anything radical or anything radically different, we're asking you to preserve it for the next group that comes through, the next generation, whatever. The reason they have it is because it was passed down along to them. So, yeah, those are some of the barriers that I'm ... Another one is, and I'm finding myself going on either side of the fence here but, you know, one of the things that a lot of like about being here is the rural situation. So, accessibility to a lot of these things is a potential issue. On the good side, it keeps people away. On the bad side, it keeps people from coming in. So, that's potentially something that could hurt.

Q8. I would say anyone who is interested in the Verde Valley and what the Verde Valley actually represents. You know, the people, and I'll talk about the adults who live here, we're here...it's kind of rare to find somebody who was born and raised here. I'm sure we all know people; but the majority of people who are here are here because they want to be here. And, we want to keep those people here; keep them aware of what's going on; and the reason it looks like it does here is because of certain things around here. Certainly, the river is a big influence. I mentioned the greenness of it. You do away with a lot of that if the river dried up. If it wasn't there anymore. And, the fact that it is, from here you can pretty much literally walk to where it starts. I don't know that a lot of places you don't have that. There is certainly huge rivers and things like that; I don't know that you could walk to the source of the

Mississippi River. I'd be walking in a whole lot of different time. So, the fact that we can do that, I think it's important and I think people would appreciate that.

Q9. Well, one of the things was the Water to Wine tour thing that kind of ecotourism is certainly attractive to a lot of people and as this wine industry grows here, which I think it's going to, it would certainly attract that. You know, we have the landscape from the viewpoint of the river, you can see that covered with grape vines and things, you know. I've heard people say, as they come down from Jerome, parts of it remind them of parts of Italy they've seen where the mountains come down and into the valleys and things like that. So, that would certainly be a focal point. You know, come see Little Italy, or, I don't know, whatever it might be. But there is...between that, just the overall recreation aspect of it, I think is truly the focal point. I mentioned Deadhorse, you know, and some of the other...going up to Oak Creek and like that, certainly some fabulous places.

General comments: [length of time here] I've been in the valley here for 30 years. [interaction w/river] For me it's kind of like my get-away thing...you know, just go and just kind of hang around. Hiking along it and just ...I've never actually, well, I've done a canoe trip on it, but I've always wanted to do just more of the kind-of walking trip on the river -- actually walk up to the source, that kind of thing. But, for me, it's also, we've got a lot of visitors around and we always go to the river. It's just one of the places you go to.

[focused dollars] I would definitely, as much as I could, try to buy up some sections along it and/or try to, with that money, influence legislation that would keep it 'as it.' You know, it is still pretty wild and scenic. I had the opportunity in early January to take the train ride and just, you know, it's another kind of a destination thing, but just to actually crawl along the river there. You see things and you, as I do on that train ride, take a little nap and you wake up and you wonder where you are because it's going the other way and you're in like a totally different space. So, trying to preserve some of that so it just never changes from that. Again, just thinking of my children or their children or somebody else to be able to come back and see that and experience that. To me, it's no different than some our past presidents of the United States preserving areas -- the Grand Canyon, Yellowstone Park, so everybody else can come see it and experience it. [anything else] No, and I appreciate the fact that you called to interview me because I know how important this whole study is. And, I was just really thrilled that the Walton Family would want to do this. It's just amazing that, obviously they have the resources to be able to do this, but they see the value in it as well. I certainly wish you luck in this whole thing and I look forward to seeing just what does come about with it.

Interviewee: Jacques SerondeInterviewer: Jane WhitmireDate: 1-19-11Place: Flagstaff

Q1. Water quality. Integrity of the riparian ecosystem. People's understanding of the importance of that willingness to commit to that -- I think that's one of our gaps probably -- lack of understanding. If we could get that right, I think we'd be a long ways ahead. In order for human beings to key missing pieces is understanding what it is and what it was and how our actions impact it.

Q2. I don't know - I'm sure there are good people out there doing something. I'm not familiar enough with the area to know -- so that's a hard one.

Q3. Oh yes. It is a part of an ecosystem -- looking at everything from climate and soils to water to plants and understand how they are all inter-related and how they express what is going on there. I think there is a lot of heedless things that happen. Human beings tend to dump their garbage wherever. Personally I am very concerned with the toxic waste from the mining industry. I don't know if anybody is addressing that really. It's easy to cover it over or sweep it under the rug but it doesn't address the situation. I personally would not irrigate with water downstream from the tailings pile in Clarkdale. I don't know if anybody is testing it but we do know that stuff accumulates up the food chain. It would accumulate in plants. There is a concept called place-based knowledge which is deeply understanding -- not just rational understanding -- but intuitive understanding and connectedness - relationships to the place, to the ecosystem and I think we have a long way to go to restore that. To the newcomers -- everybody is a newcomer one way or the other. If we as human being are going to be there and survive, it will be because we understand better what it is we are a part of rather than thinking we are apart from it. So I think we have a lot to do relative to understanding our past connections as a prelude to trying to mitigate what we do and hopefully make better choices for the future. I do believe this has to be throughout the society. This is kindergarten material - K-16 material - it's not good enough to pay lip service 20-30 years later. Obviously I am talking about a complete refocusing of our culture - a new paradigm. Look what the old paradigm got us. In some respect I believe it is returning to the old paradigm which was good enough for a million years and is good enough for all the other creatures that are in the ecosystem.

Q4. Again, I'm not that familiar with the local scene. Obviously directly the people who use the river itself for recreation, irrigation, tourism, whatever, that we all benefit and we're all there because of the river -- because of the moisture and because of the riparian ecosystem. So, I would say that tourism, in general, all depends on the river -- they may not recognize that. So, there is the direct and indirect but they are all a part... If it was part of the Little Co. a loop you wouldn't have a lot of tourism...the aspects and benefits of the river. That said, again I think we are coming out of a period of social/culture economic obliviousness to the consequences of our actions. I personally believe that our waste stream is one of the most important things we have to look at. Everything from storm waste off the cities -- as we know they dump toxins into the river. Is there a way to address that -- well, yes there is but we have to think about it. I believe that we are all related and are bound to each other as a web. It is kind of like the jangle runs through the whole system. So if I change my oil in a pasture upstream from Cottonwood, the next rain will wash it into the river. The next person diverting downstream will suck it in and on and on. Our tendency has been to think that our impacts are not significant enough to make any difference. I think those days are over. We really need to consider the cumulative impacts of our actions.

Q5. Again, I think pretty much all the folks in the sense that who would be there if it were not for the river -- the water and the quality of life and all of the attributes -- the beauty and freshness and coolness and shade trees are essential to everybody directly and indirectly. I personally believe that we are headed back to local food for reasons of nutrition and energy and reasons of quality of life and clearly finding a way to do that and a way that's in balance with the river is a major challenge. So we need a lot of education, a lot of demonstration, a lot of thinking things through -- but I think we can do it. One of the papers I sent you I think articulated visions of the Verde Valley with a very strong sustainable agriculture core to it and I personally believe that for food, fuel, fiber - the strong foundations. When we're talking about economic development, I guess I would ask you the question in return, do we want the Verde Valley to be sacrificed to global economy? In other words, it is one of the big mistakes of open-ended economic growth, i.e., "progress" is that you are trying to match finite resources to insatiable demands. It doesn't work. What I'm think of is "Cradle to Cradle" the William McDonough book. I think we have to careful about economic development...what do we mean by it...who is the economy and who is development. Are we talking about a linear system or ....? It is a practical and philosophical question. The assumption that it didn't matter where we dumped our waste and that we could keep on growing forever and the fact that was economic stability -- those assumptions are truly less and less accurate.

Q6. There is a huge amount of information out there. You don't know about it unless you're looking for it. I think the information that exists is a thousand years of human evolution and culture to draw on. The answers are there and we have the tools. I think it's a questions of what applies and what works locally. I think what's missing is testing, pilots, trying -- whether it's water conservation ethics or holding on to the water that has been conserved for quality. [how would demonstrations happen] I personally have been optimistic that the lead education institution in the Valley, the college, would take it upon themself -- or would envision for itself a role in this process. I think there needs to be a resource center - one or more. There is a lot of resources; a lot of people with questions. The people do the best they can with the information they have. It's true, there is a lot of information out there but nobody knows where it is. It's not organized around local issues. So that's where I think the college could play a wonderful role to lay that stuff out there -- a sustainable resource center at the college distributed throughout the valley so that each community could draw on it and use it so we could have a forum, in a way, to move this stuff forward.

Q7. I think if we back up and define those terms-- what does a healthy river mean, who are the stakeholders there, are we a part of the river, for example. ..I would say yes we are. And again, what do we mean by sustainable, and economic and development? If we answer those then we can start sharing that and it ultimately becomes the entire society, I believe. Who is it led by -- the thinkers and the doers. The people who are currently getting their hands dirty. I would love to see the landowners -- ag land owners organize in a way that could make a meaningful contribution. I would like to see the Tribe be able to join

the discussion - come to the table and feel that there contributions are valued and respected.

Q8. As you know, it is very hard to get where we're going if we don't know where that is. I believe that the Verde Valley needs a unifying vision as a goal -- as a place to get to and then we can begin to understand whether we are moving toward it or away from it. I think it, going back to a paradigm shift, the reality is that most of our institutions, our laws, our policies are rooted in old ways of thinking which are a part of the problem. As, I think it was Einstein who said, we're not going to get out of this the way we got into it. And that is true. Pressures from outside of the valley are a concern obviously -- Salt River Project. As we know, every drop of water that's not used in the Verde Valley they will sell it to each other furiously downstream. I don't know the extent to which it is happening already - that people are buying the water rights to retire them so they can have more water downstream for unsustainable uses. But, it certainly is a threat I would say. One of the things that came out of some of the earlier discussions was the need to assess each community with respect with respect with legal infrastructure and the news demands of sustainability. Again I would use "Cradle to Cradle" as a model/guide. But if you look at Clarkdale or Sedona or Cottonwood or Camp Verde -- what are their current policies, rules, regulations, ordinances with respect to water conservation, energy efficiency, with respect to how you build your house, which way it faces, what you dump in the garbage and on and on and on. So I think there is a lot of work to evaluate where we are at in the region to determine where we want to go. I do a lot of strategic planning and I often try to encourage folks to get into a strategic planning process which is, as you probably know, an arduous process and the vision is only the first piece of it. It's good to have a compelling vision. I think we have compelling visions and I sent you copies of a couple of them. I think that the challenges of the next step -- the assessment of what we have and where are we at? We have a lot to do in that arena. So, I think that the assessment of strengths and weaknesses, the normal -- I'm a natural resource biologist and I'm familiar with integrated resource management and you're always looking at the things to unravel and then weave back together but you need to understand where all of the pieces of the puzzle are. To my knowledge, and I have not been party to much in the Verde Valley. A year ago there was an initial effort to develop a strategic plan for the college and also for renewable energy and I'm not sure what's happened to those efforts. I haven't heard. I am in Cornville -- a little farm -- 7 acres of irrigated land. I have pasture and annual vegetables, grains, medicines. I don't grow year round as much as I'd like to. We have fruit trees and some grapes and not that much winter growing.

Q8. Again, my assumption is that we have a lot of social governance stuff to do. In other words, the sustainability efforts in water conservations, etc. Where are they existing governments at? What are they doing about it? If that analysis were done, I think you'd find a lot of places where you'd need to make changes and that would help to educate policy makers and politicians -- "the leadership" -- about what needs to be done. But, again, I think the leadership will do what the informed, or less informed, people. So there needs to be more ways to get more people understanding and participating in this. So, maybe a success and not entirely

frivolous, is may the Walton Foundation could by groceries for a BBQ -- a few, or 10, to bring people together -- to have open-houses to discuss these issues and to get people who would never come otherwise. Back to the second step in strategic planning - community assessment. I think we'd be astonished at the skills, resources and attitudes there are out there if we are able to go out and find them -- and, of course, we never do. How they would be tinkled-pink to be invited. So I think community-wide get-togethers to sort of figure out how to do that in a way to share information and to get feedback on stuff. Also, we are going to want an understanding for the community as a whole which is a lot of working. What is a community unified around now? I think that the most basic need -- most everyone likes to have their thinking respected -- everybody -- most folks in the Verde Valley stay by choice. They love it -- or they moved there from somewhere else relatively recently. So, I think a lot of them have a lot to learn about what's going on -- the issues. So, may a sustainability fair, if you will, but instead of selling products, you're sharing information. Let us tell you about the water quality; endangered species, urban runoff, or whatever -- there is a 101 topics. [how to get to lay person] The web of life with kindergarten class? You be the otter and I'll be the fish and cow, grass and strings around. There are 101 ways -- but we're talking community-based knowledge. Environmental education is a phrase with too much baggage. But, basically we're asking how can we respect and take care of this place unless we know that. I think the watershed and sub-watersheds are a hugely valuable conceptual tool because you can go and stand and top - it doesn't have to be any particular watershed -- any wash -- consider and realize that folks who change oil on the top of it -- everything flows through. For example, Project WET kits -- This is not rocket science. What's different maybe is getting it to the fore in the consciousness rather than it being the icing on the cake or the afterthought. Or the thing we'll do if we get the real stuff done, then we'll talk about ecosystem health.

General thoughts: Again, is there at present a sustainability/sustainable river ecosystem health resource system center in the Verde Valley - is there one at present? What we need is a place or more, but let's start at one place, and I would prefer for the college to be that place, where we could have that information and have the ongoing series of workshops and discussions and have access to the tools when so and so wants to know, for example, what is the best way to design my irrigation system instead of flood irrigating my acres, so they have a resource readily available to work with. Again, people do the best they can with the information they have available resource -- let's compile and organize and present it -- have it somewhere. If everybody knew, yeah -- if you want to know about XYZ just go to the Yavapai College sustainable center website or whatever or just go check it out. There is citizen volunteers there. So, we need some sort of center of energy with information there, or at least a piece of it. I think that I'm always impressed by the quality of individual's contributions. I think that everybody in America is hungry to have their ideas heard and to be able to participate. so finding ways to do that is to have venues, places to share the information...maybe to share in a way that is leading or going somewhere. I do know that the water quality is of critical importance. What comes off the hillside, the city streets and think about how to address that and thinking about what's happened already. What is going on with that huge pile of tailings that keeps

leaching into the river? Does anyone have any plans to do anything with that because that's a gigantic elephant in the room I would say. Let me ask you this - how much of a scenic Verde Valley can we have with a toxic waste dump upstream? I hate to say -- but it is a toxic waste dump, I believe. It scares me to look at it. Most tailings if you've driven around the back country in Colorado, you'll see how they have destroyed many watersheds. This is like a hundred years later and it is still cadmium, mercury in the water and every time it rains you get more. So, I'm afraid we have to face up to what are the consequences of the last hundred years of our occupancy of the Verde Valley and what can we do about it? I think we have to...I would not irrigate with the water downstream. Again, as a biologist, and I'm sure you've heard of trace elements and it takes a tiny, tiny little bit to influence something. And you've probably also heard about homeopathy and how that works and about water molecules and how they are astonishing -- how they carry energy. Putting two and two together how much tailings do you need in the Verde River to make it dangerous. I think we do need to pay attention -- not be scared, just realize that is the legacy when people didn't think about it or didn't care -- for whatever reason so now what are we going to do about it? I don't know -- basically keep it from washing into the river any more and what do we do about it? Again, if you haven't read "Cradle to Cradle" it's a great book. [reference on website]

[concerns about study] As we know, we've all been involved in studies that ended up on the shelf. The question is, what will keep this study from being placed on the shelf. Part of the answer, of course, is participation by stakeholders and ownership of it. So, that would be the question. I think it's an excellent thing to do this and get this thinking going and moving forward. You've got to be looking for opportunities and then what? And so what? We don't want it to sit on the shelf -- what will prevent it from doing that? One of my personal frustrations is watching all of the good ol' Obama money go by without us getting it. There were many, over the last two years, really good funding opportunities for the kinds of things that would emerge from the studies such as this. But, for whatever reason, the timing was not right, the coalitions were not in place, whatever. So, I would really like to see some group or coalition emerge that could work on behalf of the community at large to go after some of the opportunities because there will be more. It is a shame to see important stuff go by.... Everybody is trying to survive and it's not easy. I think we're in a process mode -- if we are trying to mobilize the community at large to advocate and be active on behalf of the health of the river and the relationship with the people, then one thing we need to do is empower people to do that. The way you do that, when it's a new thing, is pick small manageable stuff and get it done. So, I would like to see some real small projects emerge that could serve to build confidence and trust and relationships among different groups. There is a 101 different cool things that could happen. Let's pick a couple of easy ones that good happen, deliberately, so that 3, 6 months from now we can say we did it and now what -- build that empowerment. There is a lot of work to be done if we are going to sort out a new paradigm we had better get started.

e-Mail correspondence from Tom Slaback, NO. AZ Sierra Club, to Jane Whitmire, 2/16/2001:

Jane, actually it was quite short in length.  It took 3 hrs because I had to look up  various facts and I also have to look up every other word in either a dictionary for spelling or in a thesaurus for context.  He goes again:

First I must start with the last item: "Does anything about this study concern you?"   I always have a problem with studies that try to justify the conservation of a natural resource based on economical studies.  Sacred places such as the Verde River have an intrinsic value that no economic analysis can ever quantitate.  Today's sustainable economic development can be very fickle when viewed in the long term.  Economic values are constantly changing.  As soon as some other use comes along that is more valuable, that use will take over, displacing that which we thought was good and sustainable.  One only has to look at the growth in Arizona during the last twenty years to see how sprawl has taken over the state, even though we know better.

Q1  Water.  Not just any water.  A river of effluent is the same as there being no water.

Q2  How much water is in the aqufiers that feed the Verde River?  Why, in a gaining river, is there frequently a loss of water between the Paulden gauge and the Perkinsville bridge?.  Are there emerging chemicals of concern (including edochrine distrupting chemicals) in the water?  If there are ECCs (NPE has been detected at the Granite Creek confluence), what is their source (sewage treatment plants, septic tanks, waste disposal, land application of sewage sludge, etc.?)  How much water is diverted by the ditch companies?  What is the flow required to sustain the plants and animals that depend on the river for their livelyhood?  How does the management of the uplands affect the river?  How much water is being pumped by the exempt wells?

Q3  I am very familiar with the Arizona Central Railroad operation.  Most people think of a tourist railroad as being a benign operation.  The railroad was built by the ATSF in 1912, much of it following the river bank.  For years they herbicided the right of way, toxic runoff entering the water.  In 1989 the Santa Fe sold the line and the new owners scheduled their first  train, a dinner train, even though the track had not been maintained in years.  Fortunately for the passengers a coal train was the first to operate.  Unfortunately for the Verde River the coal train split the rails inside the Mormon Pocket tunnel.  They managed to drag the train downstream out of the tunnel, whereupon it tipped over along the river bank, spilling loads of coal.  In violation of Federal law, the wreck was not reported.  They then brought in a bulldozer and crane.  Pads were dug to position the crane to right the coal cars.  Archeological sites were destroyed in the creation of the crane pads.  After two weeks of prodding, the Prescott National Forest inspected the site and ordered that the cars be cut up and removed.  Later the railroad company illegally build a picnic ground on PNF land that included barbque grills and tables so that they could stop the train, disembark passenger, and provide meals.  The PNF eventually also stopped that.  Then there are the unbelievably inefficient ditch operators.  Several times a year they get their tractors into the river to rebuilt their earthen dams.  I have even seen car bodies used in dam construction.  This often results in a stretch of dry riverbed below the dams.  The diverted water is even more inefficently used.  The majority of the "farms" are five acres or less in size.  The major "crop" that is watered by flood irrigation is lawn grass.  In the case of a real farm that is

located along both sides of the river that grows livestock feed corn, they use sewage sludge for fertilizer.  According to Arizona law, land application of sludge is legal.  However, this toxic stew does make its way into the Verde River and new studies are beginning to show that the plants take up some of these toxics into their tissue.

Q4  Tourism.  Development by AG&F and USF&WS of native fisheries in the Upper Verde River in the tributary streams to the Verde River.  The Verde is overrun with non-native fish (bass, sun fish, catfish, and during the cold season stocked rainbow trout) and since many anglers prefer these species, I do not believe that there is the will to eradicate the non-natives in the flow of the Verde River through the Verde Valley.

Q5  Information of what the loss of the river would mean needs to get out to the population of not only the Verde Valley, but also the Central Highlands.  The loss of any component of the river will result in a cascading effect.  The loss of beaver results in the loss of their dams which results in the loss of otter which results in the loss of native fish, the loss of the dams results in the lowering of the water table which results in the loss of riparian habitat and so on and on eventually resulting in the lowering of the human quality of life, the deepening of domestice wells, and the lowering of property values.

Q6  Enviro organizations, BOS Davis, Green To Gold Networks, colleges and universities, chambers of commerce (a toughie as they must understand this is sustainable development and not of their modi operande for quick profits), AG&F, USF&WS, AZ State Land Department, BLM, city governments, Drake Cement (to substantiate their claim that they are the most environmental coal fired kiln in the world),  PNF and Coconino NF, USGS, State Parks Department, National Park Service, flycasters groups, Izack Walton League.

Q7 ADWR and state law that does not recognize the connection between ground and surface water, 1872 Mining Act (and the lobbyists for the sand and gravel companies), Home Builders Association of Central Arizona and their mouthpiece Grady Gammage, ranchers who think eveything is a government conspiracy against them (consider the attempt to designate West Clear Creek as a unique waterway), the SRP and Prescott agreement and Prescott Valley and Chino Valley and Yavapai County pro pumpers,and their ideas of effluent recharge at the headwaters,  state and local budget deficits.

Q8  Everyone listed in the above.

...what can be done to make the Verde River a focal point...?  Finish the Greenway.  Obtain Wild and Scenic status for the Upper Verde River.

I know I have forgotton some of the things that I referenced first time around.  Even though I saved several times during the typing of this, one of my saves resulted in the same message as last night and the loss of everything up to the previous last save.

Tom

e-Mail correspondence from Tom Slaback, NO. AZ Sierra Club, to Jane Whitmire, 2/16/2001:

Jane, actually it was quite short in length.  It took 3 hrs because I had to look up  various facts and I also have to look up every other word in either a dictionary for spelling or in a thesaurus for context.  He goes again:

First I must start with the last item: "Does anything about this study concern you?"   I always have a problem with studies that try to justify the conservation of a natural resource based on economical studies.  Sacred places such as the Verde River have an intrinsic value that no economic analysis can ever quantitate.  Today's sustainable economic development can be very fickle when viewed in the long term.  Economic values are constantly changing.  As soon as some other use comes along that is more valuable, that use will take over, displacing that which we thought was good and sustainable.  One only has to look at the growth in Arizona during the last twenty years to see how sprawl has taken over the state, even though we know better.

Q1  Water.  Not just any water.  A river of effluent is the same as there being no water.

Q2  How much water is in the aqufiers that feed the Verde River?  Why, in a gaining river, is there frequently a loss of water between the Paulden gauge and the Perkinsville bridge?.  Are there emerging chemicals of concern (including edochrine distrupting chemicals) in the water?  If there are ECCs (NPE has been detected at the Granite Creek confluence), what is their source (sewage treatment plants, septic tanks, waste disposal, land application of sewage sludge, etc.?)  How much water is diverted by the ditch companies?  What is the flow required to sustain the plants and animals that depend on the river for their livelyhood?  How does the management of the uplands affect the river?  How much water is being pumped by the exempt wells?

Q3  I am very familiar with the Arizona Central Railroad operation.  Most people think of a tourist railroad as being a benign operation.  The railroad was built by the ATSF in 1912, much of it following the river bank.  For years they herbicided the right of way, toxic runoff entering the water.  In 1989 the Santa Fe sold the line and the new owners scheduled their first  train, a dinner train, even though the track had not been maintained in years.  Fortunately for the passengers a coal train was the first to operate.  Unfortunately for the Verde River the coal train split the rails inside the Mormon Pocket tunnel.  They managed to drag the train downstream out of the tunnel, whereupon it tipped over along the river bank, spilling loads of coal.  In violation of Federal law, the wreck was not reported.  They then brought in a bulldozer and crane.  Pads were dug to position the crane to right the coal cars.  Archeological sites were destroyed in the creation of the crane pads.  After two weeks of prodding, the Prescott National Forest inspected the site and ordered that the cars be cut up and removed.  Later the railroad company illegally build a picnic ground on PNF land that included barbque grills and tables so that they could stop the train, disembark passenger, and provide meals.  The PNF eventually also stopped that.  Then there are the unbelievably inefficient ditch operators.  Several times a year they get their tractors into the river to rebuilt their earthen dams.  I have even seen car bodies used in dam construction.  This often results in a stretch of dry riverbed below the dams.  The diverted water is even more inefficently used.  The majority of the "farms" are five acres or less in size.  The major "crop" that is watered by flood irrigation is lawn grass.  In the case of a real farm that is located along both sides of the river that grows livestock feed corn, they use sewage sludge for fertilizer.  According to Arizona law, land application of sludge is legal.  However, this toxic

stew does make its way into the Verde River and new studies are beginning to show that the plants take up some of these toxics into their tissue.

Q4  Tourism.  Development by AG&F and USF&WS of native fisheries in the Upper Verde River in the tributary streams to the Verde River.  The Verde is overrun with non-native fish (bass, sun fish, catfish, and during the cold season stocked rainbow trout) and since many anglers prefer these species, I do not believe that there is the will to eradicate the non-natives in the flow of the Verde River through the Verde Valley.

Q5  Information of what the loss of the river would mean needs to get out to the population of not only the Verde Valley, but also the Central Highlands.  The loss of any component of the river will result in a cascading effect.  The loss of beaver results in the loss of their dams which results in the loss of otter which results in the loss of native fish, the loss of the dams results in the lowering of the water table which results in the loss of riparian habitat and so on and on eventually resulting in the lowering of the human quality of life, the deepening of domestice wells, and the lowering of property values.

Q6  Enviro organizations, BOS Davis, Green To Gold Networks, colleges and universities, chambers of commerce (a toughie as they must understand this is sustainable development and not of their modi operande for quick profits), AG&F, USF&WS, AZ State Land Department, BLM, city governments, Drake Cement (to substantiate their claim that they are the most environmental coal fired kiln in the world),  PNF and Coconino NF, USGS, State Parks Department, National Park Service, flycasters groups, Izack Walton League.

Q7 ADWR and state law that does not recognize the connection between ground and surface water, 1872 Mining Act (and the lobbyists for the sand and gravel companies), Home Builders Association of Central Arizona and their mouthpiece Grady Gammage, ranchers who think eveything is a government conspiracy against them (consider the attempt to designate West Clear Creek as a unique waterway), the SRP and Prescott agreement and Prescott Valley and Chino Valley and Yavapai County pro pumpers,and their ideas of effluent recharge at the headwaters,  state and local budget deficits.

Q8  Everyone listed in the above.

...what can be done to make the Verde River a focal point...?  Finish the Greenway.  Obtain Wild and Scenic status for the Upper Verde River.

I know I have forgotton some of the things that I referenced first time around.  Even though I saved several times during the typing of this, one of my saves resulted in the same message as last night and the loss of everything up to the previous last save.

Tom

Interviewee: Mary Taylor

Interviewer: Jane WhitmireDate: 2-7-11

Q1. It seems that the most significant factors are those we can't impact -- just the patterns of the world and then those we can impact -- development and recreation. [elaborate on those we can't impact] Changing weather patterns, migration of animals, or well, we can impact, but, for example, the invasion of the crayfish species that are causing problems. Some of those are somewhat out of our control or are a mystery to us.

Q2. I do and I think that's just partially being good stewards of the world. I think we need to always understand our ecosystem better if we want to live in it responsibly. That last comment about introducing things and then not understanding them is so true partially to our ignorance. I think there is two veins we need to understand: 1) our impact on our river and 2) things that are out of our control. How we can help maintain a healthy system in light of things we can and can't control. [how can people understand relationship better?] That's a philosophical question on educating the public. So, you know our conventional methods of a variety of public announcements. I think some things that seem to really work we see in communities that have gotten very creative in their 'hands-on.' For example, I think of places like Moab and St. George in Utah that have built great infrastructure into their outdoors to get people out there. Then they hold really great activities to get people out and then people go to those activities. I think we know the traditional formats of putting things in newspapers or making posters or having different media to help people understand. But, I think getting people out to actually touch the water will help them understand the water. So, I think about our canoe race, for example, in April and I think what a wonderful way to get people on the river. Then, once they're connected to it, they're willing to learn about it. [regional connections] Absolutely. It has to be regionally. I mean it needs to be the whole riparian shed, I think.

Q3. I think there are a variety of activities going on locally as people, in their own neighborhoods and as broad as the state level. We were talking about Greg Kornrumph's project through Project CENTRL and Salt River Project. One thing I'm observing with the Verde River and a lot of other social issues in the Verde Valley is that there are a lot of entities that are making pushes for the same thing but they aren't collaborating together. [example] This isn't a river example, but two entities are trying to raise money for the library endowment. So, I think there is plenty of force out right now for raising awareness for the river or raising education for the public, but I think what really needs to happen, and it is happening, is let's start getting more people together like Doug Von Gausig and Casey Rooney and help collaborate all the collaborators. [culmination of efforts] We can make energy forward motion.

Q4. I think that, I don't know what exploration has been done there, but I think we have tremendous opportunities here and I think a lot of it is not reinventing the wheel just going and seeing what other riparian areas have done and maybe being copycats to some extent. Obviously it is one of the pristine riparian in the southwest and we should capitalize on that. So, I think part of the previous question is saying, "Who is actually going to go do that research and then who is going to bring it in?" And, I think that's part of what Greg wants to do. So, we're ripe for it; we just need to do it. Well, we get to make this whatever we want so we can make it a fun, ecotourity [ecotourism] type scenario with a lot of vision and dream, or we can just slide through with no plan and see what happens in 50 years. [The Nature Conservancy and Shield Ranch, etc.] The exciting thing is seeing people who traditionally drew partisan lines who are reaching across and both being happy with the outcome, which I really feel like is also going to be key -- that we keep everybody in the conversation and make sure...There are solutions that make both sides happy. It's so exciting.

Q5. I think earlier I mentioned about getting people involved and actually having them touch the water. It makes them buy in. But I think master planning is tremendously important and then I think being able to show other models. So, I went back to the, I was just in St. George last week, as seeing all the infrastructure they've developed. Like I said, they get people outside. For example, they have great biking trail systems so part of that is there is a tortoise issue there. I don't know exactly what it is, but they have little tortoise fences along because they don't want the tortoises being run over. So, the neat thing is without putting it in peoples' faces, everyone knows about the tortoises because you have to life your bike over the tortoise fence and there are signs up and you may choose to read the signs. So, the wheels start turning when I see something like that. Somebody in St. George got organized and now suddenly there is a whole educated population there. Then, everyone who comes there is educated about it. [proud of it] We can do the same thing here where we get people involved in the water and I think we can use examples like that to show people. So, I don't have an example right now but I think we can go to other riparian communities and figure out what they did. I also think about Old Town Cottonwood, for example. Those people really built that up in a neat way and I think part of their success was looking out to other communities and saying, "What did you do?" So, I think if we go to other communities and say, "What did you do?" and then, when people come to our water events we can say, "This is what we're trying to do; we want to be kind of like so-and-so"...maybe they've been there or maybe they're interested about it, so we've given them vision that's tangible. [pride, preservation and progress mantra] Absolutely.

Q6. General or specific? How do you see this shaping up -- grassroots or group or? [grassroots effort; endorsement; hands-on; creation of vision] Do you live on the river? The way your structure that, it makes me think that the most important would be those who live on the river first and then those who live on the irrigation system because if we're looking for more of a grassroots movement then the important people are the ones who are already touching the water. And then, so, it would make sense to start with those who live on it, those who benefit directly from it, and then the kayakers and the duck hunters and spread into those realms. I feel like a lot of times there are really obvious channels that we miss. So, for example, it seems like the most important things to do would be to go out to all the landowners that live on the river and get them on board. And then, move, I don't know, it doesn't make sense to me to start with Camp Verde at-large or the Verde Valley at-large. Maybe we should start, maybe at the more micro -- the people that actually live there and look at it every day. They are already passionate. [have observed and understand it; equal responsibility to draw others in to understanding] I think that's key. I think we take the people who are passionate and make sure we're all on the same page so the passionate people are willing to get educated. And then, generally, we hope, and then once we have a similar education base, then we all are using the same language and then you said, earlier, about looking for workers. And then we have the hands to actually go out there and, as you know, it's organic. They'll just talk to their friend over a glass of wine looking at the river or they will actually show up to whatever venue you want them to and try to... It seems to me that the path of least resistance is what we want to follow initially -- the people who are passionate, and then we can start looking at other groups that we want to pull in. I think we already have so many research studies, for example, that the Chamber of Commerce has does around the valley so we can use, and the collage and things like that, so we can use that existing information to start identifying what groups we think we can start educating. And, it seems to me that we also would identify dissenting groups or violating groups and figure out... I think a lot of times we look at those groups as obstacles but a lot of times they become the best ally if we go understand why they are doing what they're doing -- why are you dumping in the river? And then start figuring out ways to help them comply or respect or... So, it seems, again, like a master planning piece. And then, so of course, there is the grassroots but then there is also whatever moneyed entities

we have. I would assume we already have those pretty well identified and so we have kind of two conversations going. [what is your personal interaction w/river?] The barn that my great grandpa built sits on the river down by the library. So, growing up I spent a lot of time at the river. I lived in Fort River Caves by Beto's corner. My brother and I would walk to the river almost daily and swim and play and then I am a hunter so duck hunting was important to us growing up -- fishing, camping. I'm a kayaker so I also completed and published a notice in the Journal of Freshwater Ecology about consumption of diet of river otters, I did scat sample analysis, so I've studied the crawdads in the river and I understand the limits and the impact they're having there. So, I think I've had a very intimate interaction with the river. I look at it every day on my way to work and see where it is.

Q7. We're going to have political supporters, Tribal supporters, big money supporters, like Salt River Project, local citizenry, interests we haven't identified yet that we need to identify, those below the flow, those above the flow, Prescott, Chino Valley. I think we already have a pretty comprehensive list there. [what opportunities for entrepreneurial endeavors here] I think the answer to that question lies in what kind of leadership is going to spring up. Political leadership. We can either have piecemeal -- whoever happens to amble across, or we can really ... It's time to pull together, make some marketing packages and decide who we want here and then go get those people to come here.Interviewee: Tom ThurmanInterviewer: Jane WhitmireDate: 2-3-11

Q1. The, for one, would be population -- building of homes; another would be, even though they pre-date SRP, having the surface water rights is the ditch...all the ditches that are used for agriculture in the Verde Valley. They have pre-statehood rights and so it's very hard to do anything with that and they are a huge user of water in the Verde Valley. I used to say, instead of growing crops, we use the water to grow houses in Arizona. That has stopped for a while, but I'm sure it will come back. I think those two things are probably the biggest 'hit' if you would. #3 would be cyclical droughts. That's another problem and I'll use a quick example of that. We had a flood in 2005 that almost wiped out parts of Clarkdale and Cottonwood. It took, if you remember, some motor home and I think there were couple houses that were threatened. So, it was bank-to-bank. I don't remember the cfs at the time. By the time that flood hit down river 60 miles to what we call Sheep’s Bridge, it was a trickle. It had been so dry for so long that that amount of water -- that much of flooding, actually was absorbed into the water table, into the sides of the river, all right there because it was just so dry. People could hardly understand that it didn't add hardly any water to the upper lake. And so, so much of this can be attributed to the weather when the water flows do go down. I saw a study the other day, too, that they said if growth continues as it is and the drought that we've experienced in the last 10 years continues, there will be actually times that the Verde River down by Camp Verde will be dry. [name of study: John Rasmussen, WAC coordinator]. [irrigation - detrimental?] I don't know if it's detrimental. It's a huge impact. I hate to say anything detrimental because that implies that I believe it is a threat right now. And, I don't think any of the above is a threat right now. O.K.? But, I think they are concerns right now and they could be a threat in the future -- especially during, again, you see, the ditches...the rights that they have to that water, during times of drought, they increase, they use 100% of their allotment so it's even ... so it's a double it to the flow because they can do that legally...and they will win in court.

Q2. Well, you could write probably a book on that one subject - trying to educate the public on what is an impact, what is their perception of what the river does for them, what it really does for them economically and for subsistence. I think there needs to be a number 2 -- probably a bullet point handout; trifold, if you will, that could be handed out to better educate the folks on the Verde River in

the Verde Valley. [what are the bullet points?] Again, that could be an all day study; all month or all year study. I imagine the first thing would be water usage for landscaping. How we can do indigenous landscaping and reduce that water use. And, of course, even though all the new code books were mandated to do it now -- low flow toilets, low flow faucets and showerheads and things like that, it would be a good retrofit to do that -- to do your part. Teaching the children in the schools what it means -- which we do now. We have what we call 'wet projects.' We can continue on with that if not...not just be a weekend once a year, but actually be in the curriculum of the schools from early ages. You know, how to turn the water off when you're brushing your teeth in between cleaning the tooth brush. To a lot of different things. I think that would be education, education, education -- we could do three bullet points on that in my opinion and that's for almost everything in life. But that's part of it. Growth is inevitable. They have to understand that there's growth that's going to happen on the west side of Yavapai County and there's growth that's going to happen in the Verde Valley. That growth goes back to the Constitution of the United States of personal property rights, o.k. The underlying zoning is what constitutes what growth can happen. Now folks, i.e. developers, can come in and ask for increased density. Usually there is a trade-off somewhere to do that. A lot of folks don't understand what the tradeoff is. Some of the good processes on tradeoffs are done right now off the San Pedro water system down in Sierra Vista. Now, you might want to look at some of that in your study too. They've already been addressing this longer than we have up here. Because parts of the San Pedro actually have dried up. And, unfortunately, in Tucson the Santa Cruz is completely gone but this is what we don't want to happen to the Verde River. However, education will be one part of that with water usage and the other part is informing folks some of this is out of our hands. They think that government can wave our hand and stop all new growth and that's impossible. You can't do that. One is it's economically a killer and the other is just that we can't do it. If you buy a piece of land twenty years ago a two acre parcel to build a house on it when you retire and you come out and we tell you, "Well, you can't do that now because we're afraid it might impact the Verde River." Well, that may be hypothetical. We think it's going to do that, but we're not sure. So, until there is true proof that one more house being built is going to affect the river, how can you legally stop somebody from building...you can't. [would there ever be that kind of proof?] So far, by the people above my pay grade in hydrology, are telling me that a lot of impact to the Verde River and the Verde River Basin aquifer will not show up for years until after that impact has already been occurring. So, it isn't instantaneous...in other words, all of a sudden we see the wells starting to drop because the growth has been too large and the Verde River is starting to dry up so we stop all building. That may be too late. We should have maybe stopped it 2 years, or 5 years or 10 years earlier. It takes time. These aquifers are not quick running waters like the creek itself or the river -- it's slow, it meanders under the ground sometimes a 1,000' and so when you're drying water for some, for one place, it may take years before it actually shows an effect. Until that technology is available, which it is not yet, I wouldn't stop one house from being built. [when/would precautionary measures be exercised] The precautionary measure was already started with the Active Management Area here on this side. There is a start. That was a good start. All of these studies that we've being doing with the Feds and with the State, ADWR and things, those are also great starts. As with all engineer types that I've met, if you put five on the wall and you all asked them the same question, if you separate them so they don't know what the other one said, typically you'll get a lot different answers from every one of them. And, they are all professional and so that's the moving target. So, who do I listen to? The Chomsky point of narrowing it down...so yeah, there has got to be a middle ground somewhere. And so, all I can take, and even though I'm a Republican, I'm a very concerned, environmental concerned Republican, and that's not an oxymoron. I don't think that's a problem. But, on the flip side, I have to moderate both sides of the picture and say what do I really believe now? I've got this person's saying one more house if going to dry up the Verde River and I've this person who says that we could go at least another 50 years or 100 years and it's not going to affect the river. Both of

them college graduate hydrologists so we have the dueling hydrologists' theories. Who are they paid by? Some of them are paid by folks in the Verde Valley on the upper end where they are afraid there's going to be an impact or on the lower end or the Tribe or are they paid by a municipality on this side of the mountain or that side of the mountain and they have a target their being paid to kind of like an attorney does sometimes. It's politics. It's part of life and that's what we deal with. Somehow that would be another bullet point that I would draft some sort of language, if I were you, is that you need to understand that the science is inaccurate and it's really tough for policy makers to know who to listen to.

Q3. I would say right now that the only activities that might affect the river would be subdivisions ... that's about the only thing I know. There's not a lot of commercial/industrial type of growth in the Verde Valley that are heavy water users. We've already pretty well...most people are concerned about that and even on this side of the mountain it's the same. There hasn't been really any created. When I was on the Planning and Zoning Commission from 2000-2004, I chaired that for three of the five years I was on it, and we o.k.'d in the early 2000s a golf course out Williamson Valley Road north. And, the problem with golf courses in new developments that is that all well meaning taking the effluent to water the golf course. O.K. Agreed. Well, they've got to be at least 2/3. But, as it grows it is supplemented so it does reduce. At that time, I told the newspaper at that time I would never o.k. another golf course in Yavapai County until after it was built and sold. But we were building and selling so fast it didn't seem to be a problem at the time. Wickenburg Ranch is another example -- same thing. But, unfortunately, the economy died but on the flip side, every report I have from wells out Williamson Valley Road where the Talking Rock Ranch is, and they've been pumping this for years now on that golf course, has not been affected one iota. So, there's a lot of water out there to do that. So, that means it's recharging itself fairly quickly. They don't have enough to do it -- it's been pumping groundwater this whole time. [It may be having an effect elsewhere.] To me, one of the arterial lakes of the Upper Verde is up on Williamson Valley Road. So, it doesn't seem to be affecting that. One good thing about what they call the Black Hills and the Sierra Prieta and the Granite Mountains and then Camp Wood areas, juniper wildernesses...There's just almost no people living out there...a few scattered ranches. A little bit of agriculture, but not much other than raising cattle. It has the ability to recharge. The aquifer in Prescott, because of the growth around the outskirts, wells being used which are being curtailed all the time around Chino Valley coming off of Mingus the recharge there has been severely impacted because of the overuse of ground water mining and everybody agrees they are getting mined. So, it's so far, to me it's been isolated in pockets where the trouble is. Thankfully, it seems like the main force in my opinion, so far of all the reports that I put trust in, that the Upper Verde River is intact and not being affected by the growth in the Prescott/Chino area. Now could that equation kick in, maybe, in a severe drought? Maybe so. How do you know? And, how do you know what percentage of the drought caused it versus over-pumping. When you see some cones of depression starting to happen, i.e. huge riffs in the ground, fractures, houses starting to crack, things like that that's worrisome. But, that's going to happen if it keeps it up. That's why I'm o.k. with taking some water that agriculture is using out of the Upper/Big Chino because that will supplement to make what could happen in the Chino Valley area from getting worse.

Q4. I think today with the philosophy of the general public in the Verde Valley, new housing may be one thing but I just don't see a lot of industry coming to the Verde Valley. In my opinion, it's more of a service, bedroom community as a region. It's beauty; it's natural resources; and you have some Tribal lands that we don't have any say over. So, you've always got to throw that into the mix too. So, some industrial could happen there. Most of the industrial I see happening there would be just somebody making a widget or something, light industry that isn't going to create a lot of water usage.

Q5. I guess the way to do that is to do, scope and do as many of these research development projects you can do showing that the Verde River has some sustainability and that if a job creation was coming to the Verde Valley that it wouldn't be hindered -- that the river would dry up in the area.

Q6. I think I go to; I don't want to; I could hang myself on that question because if I said well the Verde River Basin Partnership is good, the WAC is good then the Verde River Paddlers are going to say, well, they count too. And so, you know, I think there are 16 different groups right now that have concerns over the Verde River. And so, if you don't name them all...it's your two kids scenario. You've got to do one for one and do for the other. I would say they all have genuine ideas; I think they have genuine concerns. And so, I think we should listen to them all. [Verde Valley primary mechanism for attracting econ development] Typically, in Yavapai County, we haven't been on the forefront of creating jobs. That is typically left to your municipalities. So that would be the five municipalities. That's typically their forte for job creation. A lot of people don't understand the county has the ability to change zoning to help a business coming in but we don't have any funding stream like the cities do to help them monetarily. We can't give them a sales tax discount. We can't give them infrastructure. Those are all...they all come out of the municipalities. It's illegal for us to do that. [location on county jurisdiction] We could bend over backwards to help them get through the process; we could, sometimes you get a lot of neighbors that complain. If it's overwhelming then it's unlikely it will ever pass because it politics. But, if it's like 50/50 or 30/70-74, around in that neighborhood and we believe it's a unfounded concern - it may be a concern to those folks, but we don't believe it's truly a huge concern in reality, then we will over rule them and allow something to be done. That happens a lot. We have Enterprise Zones where folks can, through the state, can get a reduction in costs for employees so they can hire people. We can do that through the state in the counties. But as far as like putting in, tying into a sewer system or creating a water system for them, no, we can't. We don't have that. Municipalities have that but we do MOUs with municipalities. Let's say they want to connect because they know it's adjoining to their annex area but it's going to help them monetarily; it's going to help them with job creation to their community, then we'll do some MOUs or IGAs with them stating that we want them involved. That we wouldn't approve something unless they gave the approval too. Otherwise, you know, the county is autonomous. Sometimes that happens. I'll use the analogy of the Wickenburg Ranch. It's in Yavapai County but we still went to Wickenburg for approvals.

Q7. I can't answer that because it might incriminate me. I take the 5th. You've got to understand that the folks downhill from where you are, not one any specific entity, but just the county that is south of our great county, considers a lot of the watershed that surrounds Maricopa County is theirs. And they have the vote to do it. We believe that the state population, 2/3 was about, was in Maricopa and Pima County in the 2000 census. The 2010 census looks like coming in that 3/4 of the population are in those two counties. So, any legislation that comes down, i.e. water law or anything, it's most likely going to have a benefit to Maricopa or Pima County. It's the...I hate using this but it's Star Trek. It's the wants of the many versus the wants of the few or the one. Unfortunately that part of life. [knowing this what do we do] That's the million dollar question and it's not only just to the Verde River. That's the State Parks in the rural parts of Arizona; the roads, everybody in Phoenix sure loves to come up to rural Arizona -- beautiful country, that's one of the reasons they live...but, you know, when they can't get to work, when it takes them 2 hours to get down the road 10 miles...you know where the money is going to go. That's part of life.

Q8. All elected officials. I think all elected...and I've said this from the beginning and I believe that of all the water groups in Yavapai County I thought the WAC Water Advisory Group was the top of all of them.

We tried to, you've got to compartmentalize all these different people, but then take it all as a whole and hopefully the WAC will disseminate all this information and give something useful to policy makers at the local level, county level and the state and federal level. And remember there is always this threat that if we do nothing, the feds will come in and take care of it. Someone will, in some basement in DC tell us how to live out here and we don't want that either. So, you know, in a perfect world we would all get along and it would be 'Kumbaya'. And, even though I get very mad at some far left liberals, I also, I have friends that are far right conservatives that would put, almost to the point to where you'd have no government, you'd have anarchy. You can't do that either. So, you know, I'm a little more of a middle ground on that. We battle each other but in the long run, we're still friends at the end of the day.

Q9. A focal point; boy, it's pretty well a focal point now. Again, I go back to education. You educate people that this is your river. This is your river for new growth. It's your river for new jobs. It's your river for recreation, for sustainability. It's your river for view sheds. I mean, it's all of the above. [if you lived in the valley - what should be done to link for people the health of the river w/jobs and economic vitality] Again, there would be self-restricted curtailment of use of water -- keep it down. Get more involved with your city councils and county government when applications for any kind of growth come up and all concerns are being met. Push your elected officials to go after as much grant funding capabilities as they can gather up and get that funding to do more studies, especially during this economic time. [studies about] Sustainability, impacts on growth and things like that. They're ongoing but, again, you know, it takes millions and millions of dollars -- not just a couple million. We're talking 10s and 20s and 50s to get some of this real...you know, the technology is there to do a lot of this. But, we just don't have that kind of money so we do what we can and try to stretch the dollar as far as we can. Those funding sources are drying up. We're seeing right now at the federal level that even the Democrats are worried about having too much debt. We're seeing at the state level, you know what shape they are in, and so that's going to be all pushed back down on the counties and cities and, as one, I'm not going to raise property taxes just to make up for what they're...you see what's that is doing in Illinois right now. It's going to kill them. The new governor in California said he's going to have to double or triple their tax rate over there. Well, the businesses are going to run out of there like ants out of a fire hole. And so, that doesn't help the situation either. [balance between short and long term] The unintended consequence, I have found out a lot of things in this job, is huge. You've really got to look down the road. [public policy analysis]

General comments: [concerns, surprise, excitement about this study] I'm happy to see things like this. I really am. And, my hat is off to the Walton Foundation for doing this because we just don't have the money. Add one more thing in this county and we're going to have to start laying off deputies. To go to court is going to take you a year and we already have enough of those, and so, close libraries, you know, where do you get it? Our employees haven't had a raise for 4 years and...so, the same is true in the private sector so what's good for the goose is good for the gander I guess you could say. I don't see, right now, any raises coming for anybody. I know some of my employees are made at that but I don't think it would be right now anyway -- politically correct. Interviewee: Larry WatkinsInterviewer: Jane WhitmireDate: 2-3-11

Q1. The best thing that the forest service ... they are keeping the cows off the river, that's what I would say that, by me, they used to have an old trailer and the septic went right into the river. Of course, that went away 25 years ago. But that's the best thing they can do is not let effluents get into the Verde River system, so to get rid of the cattle and anything else that puts stuff in the river.

Q2. I think just the amount of water that goes in and out of the Verde River is very important. The impact of new wells that are going to be put in at Chino Valley, I think that's very important and I think that should be monitored very closely to see what's going to happen. Nothing else that I can think of.

Q3. I would say mostly river runners. The Sedona...they've been doing that for two years straight on the river, that's amazing. That, I think, could be really beneficial to Camp Verde if they could set up a deal on the river itself where people could raft there, get off, have lunch, you know and read a book...a latte or whatever -- a nice little center there instead of just on ... a nice controlled thing with bathroom and all of that. I think that would really help the Verde a lot, you know, the town and everybody else a lot. That's the best thing. [Larry's new pecan tree nursery] It's not directly related to the river. It's just a beneficial use of the land that's next to the river. It is irrigated. According to SRP, the irrigation water comes from the river.

Q4. Well, I think bird watching is a big thing and the vineyards in the Verde Valley are very important and that's what brings good, clean business to the Verde River...nothing is going to hurt anything and people spend money. That's the whole deal; get people here to spend money. If you build it, we will come. And, that's what the town and the Verde Valley need to do -- build things that attract people. One thing I wanted to do, I could throw this in, if we had enough money, I mean I'd put some money into it too, but can you imagine an underground kiva restaurant? You can't find another anywhere. If you had some...along with the archeological association, you'd have that, you'd have the restaurant, you'd have a little wine tasting room in there, you know, beer, whatever, a nice place where you have a kitchen designed so ... One wall would be a kitchen here, then you'd have a walkway to get down into it or some other really cool thing like that...elevator. And, you'd walk through the door and there is your big kiva...that would draw a lot of people. I guarantee you. It's just like that Skywalk that's going out in Grand Canyon the Indians did. That's really unique. So, I'm just throwing that in because I have a kiva. I think if you got enough people together, that would really bring in the people. Steve Goetting thought it was the greatest idea in the world. It's stuff like that...nice clean things that are different and that's the whole thing -- in order to bring people to the Verde Valley, you have to have something different than everybody else has.

Q5. Well, education of what we have to offer people, I think, that's the most important thing. [what is already available?] Well, I'll give you a prime example. I'll go back to Hauser, but anyway, twelve years ago or so, I went to them and said, "You know what? We have all of these really nice products that we could put in your stand here that you guys could sell. Put your name on it; Hauser Honey or whatever like that." Brenda's answer to me is, "We only sell corn." O.K. - not even thinking about the future. I'm just giving you an example. That's exactly what she told me. We're farmers. We don't care about anything else. So I just like...educating people on what they have...the best thing that we have going in the Verde Valley is the farming, honestly. That attracts people..the vineyards and stuff like that where you're using the stuff that's natural and developing it...not building a bunch of hotels and motels and stuff. That's not a natural thing. That's to house people. But to take the farmland like the nursery I'm talking about bring...show people that, "hey, you can come here and if you grow something and it's a clean place and it's a good drug free place (supposedly) for your kids and all that... That's the kind of thing. And, another thing I tried to get Tony...I had a great idea and I told Steve Goetting, too, and I hope he does it. You know we have this free trash day -- dump day once a year, twice a year, whatever. It takes 5 hours to empty your trash - not a good idea. What I would do if I was mayor or to help the Verde Valley, itself, I would go along, put a little committee together, go along and see all these people that have all the trash at their house and, in a nice little way, give them a free dump day. And, that

would take care...I mean that would really help things out. Even the Fire Department here is totally guilty. You go around and see all the burnable stuff behind peoples' houses and they should mandatorily say, "Look, you clean that up. That's a fire danger." And, they don't do it. And another thing, and you can scratch this out if you want later, but, I walked the ditch from my house all the way to town -- 8 miles -- in the ditch when it's dry. I picked up probably 80 malt liquor bottles from the Indians - their trash. You have no idea. And, that is something that, you know, somebody has to have the guys to go there and say, "Look, this is our country and my country. You guys quit throwing your beer bottles in the ditch." I mean... [how do you know it's the Indians?] Because I know where it starts and where it ends. It's right there by Pack Saddle Liquor. Right there and I can take you down. I'll personally walk you down and show you the trash taken out of there. You know where Copper Canyon is, right? O.K. Park there with your truck or car some time. Walk down the Copper Canyon and you'll see the Verde Ditch. It's only a 1/4 mile or so and you'll see what I'm talking about. I've got pictures and it's sickening. These are just little things that the community, if they get together and get them done, and you know it's like the city council seems like everybody thinks they are right and they don't really focus on anything. I'm out in the country. But, you know, like Robin [Whatley, council member in Camp Verde], my buddy that we took to Australia, she, the other day I was there, we introduced them...Sue and I...but the funny thing is...we went over there to drop something of and she was kind of dressed up. I asked, "Where are you going?" She said, "I'm going to a meeting. A Planning and Zoning Meeting. And, I said, "Oh, I didn't know you were on a committee with that." She said, "I don't want to go; I don't understand anything they're doing." There you go. Well, you know, I mean, I can't say anything. Just little things like that have been bugging me for years. The Indians...it would be nice to try to...I don't know what kind of an educational system they've got going over there but they need not to trash out their reservation. That's another big thing that's a big draw in Camp Verde is the reservation... It's another culture. I was just up at San Carlos and I met one of the Indians there ... a really nice guy and he worked at the correctional thing there. He's a maintenance guy...a funny guy...great guy. But I mean you drive those roads and you just go...this is sickening. It's just every 20' there is whatever and they don't care. It just drives me crazy. But anyway, as far as economic growth and all that, if Camp Verde, itself...the town, if people would drive around and look at that and say, you know, if you're coming from out of state or somewhere else, would you like to live here, would you like to buy food here, do you see everything is all trashed-out and stuff? No. Most people wouldn't. It puts a scar on it.

Q6. Well, SRP would be the #1. That's really the person and the people themselves, as far as pollution and stuff like that. The citizens themselves then SRP and I don't know what the state...the Department of Water Resources too. You've got to get them all onboard before you can really come up with something. [ADWR budget cuts] They lost a ton of people...I don't know what percentage but it's over 50%, that's what I've heard because a friend of mine used to work for them.

Q7. I'd say the city council, firstly, they're the ones that are supposed to be running this place and if they can't decide something than you get a mediator to run things for them. [regional level] What I would do, if you haven't already done this, I would get a representative from each town. Get a committee together and then say, "O.K., what can we do to...what do you have in your city that everybody wants and all that? This is what we've done in ours and this is what we've done here." And, kind of combine all that together and say, "O.K., we're going to have a plan here." That's the thing. Like the (unclear) is a five year plan. And, we've got to get all the city members, or somebody, onboard to get this done. I mean that's what I would do and just see if it world work. Now, if they're going to fight and complain and all that, what they don't understand is they're ...we're all in the same bed and we'd better get along and that's a hard thing to do. That's why I'm saying if nobody can understand anything, then get a mediator outside the Verde Valley to come in and say, "Look, this is what did in our town."

So, that's the only thing I can suggest. [regional planning models] I'm sure there is. I want to tell you this, Jane, this is the whole deal. Most of the people here, besides the unemployment thing that's going on, most of the people here do not want growth, substantial growth. They want managed growth. We don't want to be a Prescott. We don't want to be a Cottonwood. They're talking about population growth, basically. Sure, they want their cake and eat it too, but you can't get that all the time. There is nothing wrong with having some more houses. What we don't want to see...and I was born in Arizona and my father was born in Nogales when it was a Territory. So, I've been here a while. My grandfather was a mining engineer at Carlsbad, New Mexico. So, that was in the 1800s. So, that's an old thing. They don't want to see a bunch of people coming here because, for one thing, they don't ...how long did it take them to get the sewer system going? And it still has problems. So, you can't bring any ... you're talking about the economic growth. O.K. So, what if you bring some really nice restaurants and all this other stuff? That's going to increase your tax base and all that. But, if they can't flush a toilet, what good is it going to do? You have to have the infrastructure in there. I wrote a letter, they probably didn't like me, but those impact fees, that it is the only viable way to temporarily raise taxes. What I said in my editorial that I wrote to the paper a few years ago, I said why should a person who has lived here 10, 20, 30 years why should we pay for these new people coming in when we're the ones that support them. Otherwise, they are going to get some upfront support by impact fees. That's what happened in Phoenix. Everybody did the same thing. They build all of these subdivisions and then go we'll just raise their taxes and let everybody here do it and it's wrong. I don't care... Now, if a person lives here and they want to build something on their property, that's a kind of a gray area. I'm talking about new construction. I mean new construction on a new lot -- not a person's existing that they pay property tax on. Wouldn't you rather go to a place that's nice? Otherwise, you get what you pay for. And, if you're going to have to pay an impact fee to live in a better place, so what? The whole deal with that impact fee, just like we were charged $15 an acre foot fee because SRP...All these people are going well, where did that money go? Well, I heard but I can't prove it, that it was being dipped in by John Reddell. He was taking money out of that fund and paying himself and doing all kinds of stuff -- you have no idea. That's why a friend of mine got him nailed with the IRS. But, I mean all this stuff was going on. That's the whole thing. It's the same thing with this city council, if they have a fund, an impact fund or whatever, that money stays there to do specific things like fire, sewer, police, whatever like that. And, it's the same thing with our government. But, if you can prove to that person, here's your transparent...You can look at that account and see where that money goes and I haven't heard anybody say that yet. Say, o.k., here is some money here to help Camp Verde and you can look at it. If I was able to go look at that and say, there is the money, it's going to do something...It's just like these $25/quad off-road things. One of these days when I find out where the money is going, I'm going to go in there and say, what have you done with my money. Show me. They have beautiful trails in most states. I mean Utah ...such gorgeous places to go with your quad. I mean...and it's not wrecking the environment and all that. It's really nice and that's what they need. The same thing like here. If we could do...if we could get so we could see, look what we did. Look where all of the county money is going right now. Salt Mine Road. Drive out there. They cut all these branches because they're kind of growing together. They put in six or seven culverts. They're extending where the ditch goes across the road. They paved a mile...it's the most beautiful mile road you've ever seen in your life way out by me. Why? They're resurfacing. I'm going to call Chip Davis, because I know him, and I'm going to say, "Chip Davis, thank you very much, but why? These improvements are past Fort Lincoln where there is no population. Beaseley Flat, that area, that's another big project cause you live out there..the road is gone. But anyway, if you drive out you won't believe it. They are working out there this morning. This is great...it's funny. So, I'm a happy camper.

Q8. Developers. The people who want to contribute to the Verde Valley...economic growth. [how do they think about connection with river] It's a draw. It's a magnet. That's all there is to it...the Verde is. If you put the restaurants, or little condos or stuff that are going to be nice and clean and they use solar stuff and all that...That's a big. I mean, Dick Tinlen and I talked about putting a bunch of solar stuff in and it takes 7 years to... I don't have. It takes money but he's got some great ideas and that's it...a nice clean place. [desirable place that contractors - where are investments for ecofriendly investors] Make them an offer they can't refuse. Tax base. Long term economics. Show them that if you do this, this is what we predict down the road. We lost Home Depot, Walmart because the city council couldn't make up their mind. They were ready to build out there. The biggest problem we have is getting the city council to get onboard -- get on the same page, I think. And, what you might want to do as an interviewer, I took techniques of interviewing - a graduate course - at UofA. I did it because it was fun; I had a good time. But, anyway, what you need to do is take each council person, and, if they've got ten questions or five questions, and don't get them together. Get them separately. This is what I'm really interested in this...what do you see; what can you do to help the Verde Valley grow economically. Put all that together and come up with a deal. I think that would be wonderful. That way, you know when they're all in the same room, they ..... When you get one-on-one with somebody, they're going to really find out because they are going to tell you stuff that they wouldn't tell you in that room. It's just the way they are.

General comments: [focus dollars] Like I said, I'd build that thing so the river runners could have a latte, that's just an idea. I really think what would be really nice is a ...the first thing I would do if I had a bunch of money for the town/region, I would fix up all the infrastructures first -- bridges, sewer systems, anything that would help the growth ...you know, the economic growth too. And then, the trouble is, when you provide a tax base like they should have...that's what Cottonwood did. They said, we'll give you a better deal, so, o.k. we're there. And, now, you have to look at the long term effect of that. But there's ... Robin...I wouldn't give them a deal on taxes. There's no way I would do that. They can take their money. That's the attitude. I'm not a business man, but I know common sense. I say, make them an offer they can't refuse and then you've got to look at what the long term impact... Everybody drives to Cottonwood to go shopping. Why? Well, there's nothing here to shop. How many dollar stores can you have in one town? That's what I'm saying about economic growth. A person goes, 'hey, I'm going up to Camp Verde because there is dollar stores." You know what I mean. There is nothing...It's o.k. Perfect example. The riverwalk. Do you realize what that's like? Have you been there? San Antonio. I tell you, they have beautiful shops; they have gondolas; they've got all kinds of really neat stuff. It's just wonderful; it's just beautiful so that's the idea. Again, what you want to do is put something on the river that's not going to wreck it. It's got to be eco-friendly, whatever it is. And, I think that' important because now, there's really no control. There isn't. The river runners, if they land someplace and everybody doesn't clean up their stuff, you know. I mean their liable to the forest service but... Well, it's just like -- I've been 175 miles down the Colorado River on a raft, and, you know, that is a tight ship, believe me, and it takes like two years to get to go. They keep everything just beautiful and pristine. If you had people that would manage the river, and I mean taking out snags and bad things that could hurt somebody, that's an important thing too. And that doesn't take much. You just take a chain saw and go along and cut the things out and then everybody is going to feel happy about going down the river, too. The Forest Service, their stupid tree huggers, or whatever, they want all this stuff to grow on the river. We can't cut a tree down. What does it do when the flood hits? It goes out and wipes everybody's property. There are salt cedar that should be taken out. But they won't let you cut that out. Well, I'm all for that because you don't realize this, but in 1993, we had that bad flood. You've been to my house and know where the dam is there. That whole thing in front of me was like a football field -- flat, no trees...it wiped them all out. Look at them now. They're 30, 40 feet tall. So, you know that's what I'm

saying. If they can manage the river, that's what they really need to do...do a little bit of trimming and this and that and the people will feel safer going down, it would be beautiful and... Also, I'd like to see them ...don't let people to in the river with their vehicles. I told the forest service, you know the marshal...I said, look, I caught a guy that was crazy with a van behind my place -- a van in the river bed. He almost got stuck and he was so wiped out he didn't know where he was. And...block that stuff; keep that thing because...That's another thing, if you provide access, it's got to be controlled access to the river in the whole Verde Valley. O.K. if you want to go to the river you can go here; you can go there, but don't go here. Just leave it alone. That's a very important thing. And they take their trash and dump it anyway...so, that a really important.

[concerns about study] Well, I feel that people should think to the future -- look ahead and try to plan for the Verde River system and try to do something. If I get on a project, I do it...that's the way I am. But, the thing is, you have to, it's like one step at a time. And, that's another thing that would be interesting to do. Pick out a project and let's do this project. If people want to volunteer to do the project, that's fine. Just like cleaning up. If some older people can't clean their area, go help them. Another great idea, you want to solve...if you want to solve this problem of pollution and trash -- beer bottles, cans, whatever, all you have to do is pick up this trash, take finger prints off of it, look at a data base and nail them. Interview with Patty WestJan. 13, 2011

Q. 1As you know we did a couple of studies and not what I believe, or my opinion, but what I heard people saying was their concerns for the health of the river were contaminants that come from nonpoint sources water treatment plants like micro-contaminants that might come from medications and that sort of thing. The study was “Valuing the Verde River Watershed and Assessment” was done by myself, Dean Smith and Bill Auberle and can be found online. And then a “Further Analysis of the Verde River Watershed Ecovalues was done by Dean Smith, Sarah and myself.Personally I think (and her observations in addition to interviews) what I have seen going on is that there may be some significant influence by construction that is going on – gravel, etc. is getting into the water through construction. Q2.I think, and through our papers too, I was noticing that the river provides a lot of services that people don’t understand. Even through our questioning, we didn’t get to that because people don’t exactly know what it’s doing for them that they don’t pay attention to everyday. From your knowledge, what would you list that they don’t understand and are critical to their understanding and public policy?Scientifically rivers provide services that, for instance, that we talked with one person about – bees need water and bees pollinate things. And if you don’t have water you don’t have pollinators. People don’t even realize that if they have crops and that require pollination, that bees rely on the river and, therefore, people are relying on the river – sometimes they don’t see the connection but, in general, I don’t think people recognize that sort of service. It might be good to do some education on what services the river provides in general and looking at how that could change w/changes in flows.Q3.I am not aware of those sorts of things. (other than observation of construction debris in the river)Q4.My perspective is generally on looking at sustainable econ dev. so when I think about these things from the answers people gave us in interviews I would say there is a not very tapped into potential for people

to do eco tourism that – things that don’t impact the environment in a negative way but can provide services by bringing people into a place that is very beautiful w/wild\life and providing opportunities for people that live there to take advantage of that.In your interviews in the valley, Q. 5: I refer to the paper again. There is a lot of information looking at birding, for example, birding and promoting birding activities and the Verde River -- Verde Valley birding and nature festival. That kind of thing can bring lots of money to the community and especially if you can protect that kind of resource to the point where people appreciate the wildness of it -- that you can use that to protect the species and the environment but you can also use it to bring in a lot of money. There are a lot of studies on that. There is one by the Nature Conservancy that refers to that. (referenced in the NAU paper; maybe online also)

Q6. I guess potential supporters would be anyone who is interested in sustainable economic development or in a healthy river -- the connection between all the people - some will have one but some will have one or the other. Putting all together is a huge group of people. I think the thing that I saw most is that everybody wants there to be a healthy amount of water in the river and whether or not they are willing to give up something to get that is the question. I think that's where the conflict comes in. I don't think anybody wants there to be a healthy ecosystem and a supporting amount of water in the river for the wildlife. But how they get that is the question.

Q7. I don't want to talk about that personally but there were a lot of people we interviewed that felt like AZ water law might need some revisions in order to be able to allow for a healthy river to exist. And they didn't specify what exact laws they were talking about.

Q8. I think the potential for the uses is high for a lot of different people -- I think obviously if there is somebody with some funds to fund something and they want to do something that has some social and economic benefit as well as environmental benefit those would be the people that I would target -- I don't know specifically who that might be. But, when you look at green development and sustainable development in this state it becomes more and more important for folks so I would think there would be a potential there. But, I don't know exactly.

Q9. the one I've been thinking about for a long time is that there have been what's been national heritage areas and I don't know what the current funding is for that but a once time if you got some area recognized for as a national heritage area there were funds that could be used for that. That doesn't take rights away from private land owners; it takes (if it's done a grassroots level) it takes ideas from people and creates themes within that. So, in the Verde Valley there is the theme of wineries right now -- wineries and food is a huge theme -- cultural things that are going on as far as native Americans go is a great area for that. So there is all of these themes that in the development of these natural heritage area they would do focus groups with people in the area to find out what those themes should be. Outdoor recreation could be a theme so there is all these different things that could bring focus to those nationally. When you're hooked in with the national heritage system you are linked up with other national areas that are promoted as a group. Once you get on that map and online, that helps the area and shows them the focus that we think is important as far as the river, wildlife and environment that can be a focus -- that could be one of the themes is healthy wildlife or living rivers -- there are so many different themes that we could come up with that in that. The process creates a positive focus -- what we can do together; how we can keep it healthy instead of who if doing what to who in regards to water.

Who else to interview: I think what I'm thinking of is groups -- because what I'd like to know, as a person reading the study, is how somebody who is not an environmentalist -- a developer that is interested in taking advantage of this from the standpoint of an economic development study standpoint -- how they would incorporate some of these things into their development. I think they would be a good audience for this information if you can convince somebody who is really mostly interested in money -- that this is a way they can use that -- it serves both purposes, so it is a win-win. They've got the money to develop something and if se can focus that in a way that helps the river too that would be great.

Concerns about study/questions: I think my questions are more when you say 'we' that's implying a general audience. But that is _____ maybe -- but mostly because I've done some outreach to specific groups so when I think about giving this information to somebody, you have to know who your audience is. You could think about different groups of people and what those people might benefit from in terms of education about the river.

I tend to think about this sort of thing a lot so I'm sure I'll send some other thoughts yours way.

Interviewee: Mike WingateInterviewer: Jane WhitmireDate: 1-26-11

Q1. I think probably the lack of common sense in development and managing the pollutants and things like that and access and there's really, I don't see anything...really, it's just piecemeal all over the place. There are little pieces of the river, it's just somebody's back yard, you know, and whatever they do affects it. And, also the flow of the river. The flow is so slow, too. It's just external influences to it from people. I mean there's trash in it. Look along the river behind Jennifer's place [Dutton: south of White Bridge], I walked over there one day. There is a ditch bank. There are styrofoam cups and boxes and papers and trash. You could fill a 30 gallon bag in about 10 minutes. They are accumulating from upstream. They are getting caught in there. But, I think people are the most significant. When we had the big flood a couple of years ago, a Chevy Suburban went down stream and a 250 gallon propane tank that nobody's ever seen since. They are downstream somewhere And, you're at flood plain down here.

Q2. Actually, its source...how the Big Chino basin really influences the flow of the river and, you've got Oak Creek feeding into it too. That's one of the things that people do not understand is you cut off the top of the thing and the bottom doesn't work. It's like cutting the head off a person...the rest of it doesn't work. I think some day the Verde will go dry. I really do. Right now it's flowing, it's only what 4.1' feet deep in flow and 7cf per second and that's slow. It went up to about 5.5' and then dropped back down; it didn't get going. I look it up [info] online and the USGS website. It's not real time, but it's close enough to... [discussion by fire board] It hasn't been. We've only had two meeting [since Mike was elected]. The only water-based issue that the fire board has talked about right now is the water splash or fire suppression. It is a problem. There's not enough water to go around.

Q3. I have no idea to be honest with you. I've seen some rafters and that's about it...kayakers. There is one company that brings them down and picks them up. That's the only thing I've seen to do with the river directly.

Q4. Probably river rafting. People like that slow flow. Of course, down farther you get to the rapids... That would be the only thing I could see, of course, I'm short-sighted on that. Like I said earlier, my

expertise is in fire suppression and electronics engineering and communication so it's a little big out of my league on some of this. The other thing is there is no real promotion of the river. Deadhorse Park up there, they promote that a lot. The river is right there. But there has really been no promotion of the river. I don't think people really want to change things around here. They don't want to have ... I moved here and I don't want to change where I'm at because that's the reason I moved here. But I can help it exist. Right now, the big joke, and you can quote me on this, is the new town slogan [Camp Verde] -- Gateway to the Verde Valley. I really think it should be Gateway to the Dead Business District. Mayor Bob, he done good, boy.

Q5. You're making my head hurt. Really, you know, I think one of the things that needs to have a uniform approach to understanding the river...you've got Opinion A, you've got Opinion B, you've got USGS thing...I know it's not economic, but it really is because to understand the Verde and how it comes about in one uniform approach...you've got everybody's brother on the Prescott side saying, "Oh, no. That's not going to affect the Verde." People on the Verde say, "Yep, it's going to affect the Verde." So, we really don't understand. If you understand the way the river is put together and how it's fed, then you can look forward and promote something there. But, you've got to...I don't see any connection with anything sustainable economic development in the valley. There's...you can't use the river for anything. SRP's right now are in question. I saw that. They failed to file the paper so the surface rights...Why would anybody want to develop something? Maybe we ought to put a dam in here, you know, and cut off Phoenix and then have a boating... Those cameras [referring to the military observation balloon recently approved for installation in Camp Verde] are amazing. They send up all the control and stuff to the cameras on fiber optic cable and then that comes back to the control center. You've seen the television cameras on helicopters. They make those look like your Brownie box camera. They have such range and stability- fully auto stabilized using laser range gyro stabilization, the same things that submarines use in their navigation system. So, the only thing that happens, though, is the heat wave will distort the image. That's amazing. It gets heat inversion at 4200', of course, it will be above that.

Q6. The community has to be. Those people have to support it. If it's not supported by the community, then nothing is going to happen. People real need to understand, I keep coming back...People need to understand, I guess you'd call it the ecology and hydrology of the river. If you don't understand that, why would you even care? That's where I'm at.

Q7. NEPA is one. That's a big one. National Environmental Protection Agency. It's going to stop development in here because you have to go through so many processes to get approvals to do things. SRP is a big one...the water rights issue. That's a big issue. And, of course, like the pollution of the river from external sources. You know, diesel fuel spills, hazmat spills, who knows the pollution into the river from the crawdads and snails and things like that that don't belong. So, those are...but, as far as getting development in connection of the river, first it's got to be a healthy river. But, I don't think it's healthy, though. It's there. That's why they call it the Verde. It's green. It's healthy as far as it's flowing. But, I think people are just using it and abusing it. You see people bringing in crawfish for bait and they escape and multiply. I can go fill a crawfish trap out there in about two hours with about 50-60 of them. I've done that just to see. And then, of course, you have a hot bucket of water... I do a lot of stuff.

Q8. Well, you know, and that’s business decision and my opinion is just one of many. I probably...you know, someone who was actually looking into home development and construction would be the area that would use this information because the Verde will get sucked dry if you put too many homes here. That's the other issue is the water tables and stuff can be drawn down. It's like in Cornville. Friends of mine there had to dig their well deeper. Actually, the entire state is impacted by what happens in the

free-flowing rivers. Look down in Phoenix, Tempe and Mesa, you know they are all sucking water and they wash their driveways down with it. They don't know what an air blower is. The only time I only use any water to clean my patio is when something has been spilled and I have to use a pressure washer. Otherwise, I have one of those electric blowers and it flows stuff off and does just as good a job. It gets rid of the leaves and stuff.

Q9. I don't think I would like this to be a recreation city like Flagstaff is. I like the comfortable environment here and there is already too much traffic for me. I moved here in 1997 to get away from it. Look at all the stoplights. Gosh, you mentioned the hospital, too. You know, you mention Marcus J. Lawrence and people say, "What's that." Well, it's now VVMC. You mention those things and people don't know. I'm starting to become an old-timer after only 13 years. The place looks a little different. I'm still having trouble with my trees but that's another story. Bark beetles are really bad. I have issues with spraying so close to the NRA [natural resource area]. That's another thing here is the designation on the Verde and it should be designated as Wild and Scenic River and natural resource area expanded to cover it all. That would give it some protection for future and... That was one of my ideas, you know. But as far as a regional economic development point, I don't know. What would you do other than river recreation? That's really the only thing. And, then you start...go down and look at the Salt River. You see where the tubing happens and what you get there. There's under-water cases of dead beer, you know, it's worse if it's actually the focal point...it would be worse for the river, in my opinion, to have it at that point because it would destroy it. Now, fishing is fine. As long as you do it right. There is an awful lot of carp in there but we use that to feed the eagles and I don't know if you've ever seen them hunt over here...you watch them cruise along with their wings folded and they dive. My dad, before he passed away a couple of years ago, had never seen an eagle in flight in all his years. He said, "What the heck is that? It's carrying a big fish." It was flying back down here. He enjoyed that. Then there was an old crag in a tree behind Jennifer's place that they were starting to nest in. I think all the noise from the lumber yard ... That's another thing. The noise pollution around here is unbelievable. One thing that might make the river a little more accessible too, is the regional trails plan being completed. I'd love to take my mountain bike and ride up and down the trails there. It's healthy for me and I get to see the river more. Right now there is so many limitations to people blocking...it's my access, you know, and you can't go over here... You know, it's kind of like the beach. We need a Verde River Access Commission. You know everybody goes, "The meaner land is mine." That's nice, but why don't you share it? And then you've got the issue with the trolls that live along the river. I was down there one day on the north side toward the little offset and there was a camp in there and you could tell they'd been in there a long time. I saw a Fish and Game guy, "I think you've got a squatter up here." And, he said, "Well, we don't deal with that. That's the marshal's...it's not my job." But, he said, "I'll mention it to them." And, they were gone. The biggest thing about is about the concern...would be if we push this too hard then I'd lose my quiet world and I'm selfish. Maybe not. It's really...I don't think about the river that much other than when I drive over it or I take a walk down through there. But, beyond that point, I don't want to see it polluted; I don't want to see it damaged any more than it is. I like having it there. I just ... the politics of the river are worse than the actual river itself. You know, it's too many ...Phoenix owns the river, you know, and this is two states in Arizona, you know, Phoenix and the rest of us. They say, "It's all mine, mine, mine." If you want to see a good example of what happens when it becomes all mine, mine, mine, go to the Owens Valley out of Bishop and look at Owens Lake. There used to be apple orchards in that valley. It used to be green. It used to have paddle wheelers going across Owens Lake from the Keeler (sp?) side where the (unclear) mine was. They used to take the...instead of driving around through the desert with the gold and silver, they'd take them across in paddle wheelers over to Alancha (?) and load them up there on vehicles. Now it's destroyed because of feeding LA's habit. And Mona Lake is receding. It used to be part of my operational area. Mona Lake

was...you know, you'd go out there ... it's really funny man's interference...the Army Corps of Engineers in their wisdom, there was the island in Mona Lake. There became an earthen bridge across there because it got so low. In their wisdom they put probably $100,000 into blowing a water way through there..breaking the land bridge apart...it was to keep the coyotes from going across to the island and eating the gull eggs. And then they forgot, coyotes can swim. So, they just get up to the edge and swim over to the island. Man's interference in things, and I'm not a global warming advocate or anything like that, but I say there are some things we can do. Beyond that point, I'm not going to go any farther with it because then it becomes a political 'he said, she said'.

General Comments: [focus of dollars] There's, you know, a 'bang for your buck' issue here too. I would work the trail system over. I would use that money to do that and buy property or access rights along the river. Get the trail system put in. That way, people could...and develop some riverside camp sites where people could actually stop on a hike from one end of the Verde to the other. You can't walk it in a whole day. Picnic or camp over night. That would be the only development I could see in it. Of course, then you'd have to put some outhouses there and trash facilities. But, that would make me happy and then people would have a place to go and the cyclists and hikers have a place to go; horse riders have a place to go and it's all integrated with the Verde. That's what I would do with it. And, there's funding there too to actually maintain that. In this economy right now...

Addendum to original interview submitted by email on 2/17: The Verde River may be seem as the life blood of the Verde Valley and in general terms it is, but in reality the completion of the Verde River trails system will be the life blood for the sustainable economic utilization of the Verde river.

The Verde River trails system has the potential to be part of a Verde Valley wide alternative transportation system.Bicycling and walking are viable commuting alternatives; recreational biking and walking have the potential to create local business opportunities. Now with the ever increasing costs of fuel the trails system seems even more encouraging to non automotive commuting and local recreational opportunities.

The trails will also provide an opportunity for many elements of healthy life styles; paths are simple cost effective ways to improve health, both physical and mental well-being.Trails and paths might even help mitigate some elements of air and noise pollution and other environ stress elements.

Additionally the trail generates a public safety feature with extra eyes out and about, gives Fire, Search and Rescue and Law enforcement easier access to the river.

Mixed usage of the trails (Cycling-Equestrian-Pedestrian) would provide a safer more secure area for them. Currently for equestrians riding trails are hard to find and this doesn’t provide the real outdoor equestrian experience that our forefathers had. Pedestrians and Cyclist’s are forced travel the edge of the roadways increasing the opportunity for loss of life or injury.

Trails and paths along the Verde River could boost the value of the land that is adjacent to the river making the sites more attractive to future buyers,

Urban trails along the Verde River could present many entrepreneurial opportunities for bike shops, restaurants and stores all generated by path/trail users.

With the trail system the public could enjoy a pseudo wilderness experience while within an easily accessible urban environ.

While the Verde River preservation and utilization are key elements for the survival of the Verde Valley, access to the river is the goal the trails allow that, the river may be the heart of the valley but the trails system would be the veins and arteries of a great network for access, use and economic opportunities for the Verde Valley.Please excuse my ramblings; these are a jelling of my thoughts after our interview. Best Regards Mike

Interviewees: South Verde High School StudentsIzzy Housenga; Hannah Hermosillo; Ann-Marie Buchholz; Lucas Zane Hammar; Caleb WilsonNote: All but one of these students was born and raised in Camp Verde. The three male students stayed after the interview was completed to thank me for interviewing them. One told me he had been looking for an organization to be involved with having to do with the health and maintenance of the Verde River.Interviewer: Jane WhitmireDate: 3-9-11

Q1. 1st response: I would probably have to say trying to keep it clean; pick up your trash; don't pollute. 2nd response: I don't know. I don't really go down there...I just go to sit down there. I don't really know if it's [the water] is clean or not. 3rd response: There is trash everywhere down there. [response to trash] It's pretty gross to sit down by trash and stuff. It makes me uncomfortable. [trash in the river] Yes, sometimes. 4th response: There is usually a bunch of rebar and cement under where they built the bridges because the construction workers just leave it down there. So, I agree with these guys about pollution down by the river. 5th response: The same, I agree. You can pack it in and pack it out. It always weighs less leaving so it shouldn't be a problem. General statements: Everyone should try to pick up as much trash as they can. Take a bag down there with you. Along the banks there are plastic bags and things like plastic rings and things you put soda in. You could pick those up. I'm sure there are probably people dumping grease/oil in it. Sewerage used to go into it. I don't think it does any more. But it used to go directly into the Verde. Chemical pollution. There is constantly fishing wire down there that still has hooks on it and it hurts when you step on it. All use the river for fishing, swimming, hiking, canoeing, relaxation and peace and quiet. I don't go in the river...you don't know what's in there and when you look at all the trash and you don't know what's underneath. I always step on fishing wire. They should put trash cans by the parks by the river [White Bridge and Black Bridge] I've lost a lot of fishing spots because people went in there and dumped trash out of the back of their truck or something. And then the people who own the property they do it on won't let me go down there anymore. I don't like that. It's not just trash. It's like chairs and mattresses. It's anything...all kinds of stuff. Q2. (1) Well, I think that if we hurt the river all we're doing is hurting ourselves because we use it for farmland and we get our trees and water for our wells. I think if we damage the river, we start damaging our own water supply that we use it for daily. (2) I really don't understand the river. I don't know where it goes; I don't know how deep the water is; I would go tubing but I don't know where it runs to. [curious?] Kind of, I guess. Now I am. [what, if anything, makes the Verde River unique] 3) Mr. King was talking about if you got on the Verde River that you could travel to pretty much any place around the world -- every major river and stream empties into with the ocean. 3) It's just like any other river I've ever seen. 4) It's one of the cleanest rivers in the US, I guess. 5) Then why do they call it the

Dirty Verde? [understand the river?] 6) I don't understand it. [interest?] Kind of; sort of but I don't know what there is to really understand though. 7) Over the years I've realized that this river has own unique little ecosystem. There are so many different kinds of fish and wildlife that I've only seen in the Verde. I've ...like rivers in Colorado, I've never seen the type of fish that are in here. It's got its own unique system. 8) I've fished in the river a lot; I swim in it and that's what I understand about it. It's a good opportunity to be outdoors and experience it -- fishing, swimming and all that stuff. [thinking about water -- drinking?] 9) Should we? 10) I think most of our water comes from the river. 11) So, where does our water come from then? 12) It comes from the Verde River. 13) It comes from wells which ...come from the river. 13) It's filtered many times so don't worry. You're not going to suck up a fish. 14) I don't know. One time we had irrigation and a fish came through the irrigation.

Q3. 1) Aren't they like traveling down the river to see what places they could set up at to make more money like Phoenix does; like Cottonwood does, right? [Water to wine venture] 2) A lot of the money that Camp Verde gets is from crops and they water from the river; they have their own little ponds ... 3) I think Camp Verde should do more things like Cottonwood does - Deadhorse (negative reactions from others; people would still sneak into the river) Why not? I think they should ... honest people could go to park and pay money and then more money would come into Camp Verde and there would be better things to do. 4) Then there is going to be more pollution and more crap down there. 5) Not if there is a patrol down there and signs telling people what to do. 6) Even the forest rangers leave junk down there. 7) I've found lost of forest ranger documents out in the woods just dumped. 8) I think it's dumb that they like ... people from Phoenix and Cottonwood are traveling down and there's like a water and wine thing and there doesn't need to be anything down there besides people fishing or swimming. 9) But, Camp Verde could make money off of it. 10) Exactly. 11) That's good. 12) It just means that's going to be more people and more trash. 13) Not if it's like a park and people come in. I'm sure they'd have people go down there and pick up trash. 14) Yeah, but it's just one area, though. It's not the whole Verde River. 14) What if they did canoe rides and stuff? People could pick up trash from that. If they had money to fix things. There might be more problems but they'd also have more money to fix problems that are created. 15) Why should we have to fix it if we just take care of it? 16) There shouldn't be anything to fix. 17) If we just pick up what we left behind, there wouldn't have to be people coming down to pick it up. We'd be saving people a lot of money not having to go down there. [economic development opportunity w/plan to be sure river isn't harmed]

Q4. 1) Catfish festival. 2) People are tubing down the river all the time. 3) I didn't know anything about a catfish festival. 4) I have participated in that event for 15 years. It's a lot of fun. [catfish festival and connection with river health] 5) They always promote non-littering and picking up trash. The catfish contest is solely the Verde River. You're only allowed to get the catfish from the Verde. [about the river] They don't really give us any info on the river. They don't restrict the bate. Chumming? No. It's again the law in Arizona. 6) What's chumming? 7) It's when you throw bait out into the water to attract more fish. 8) Can you noodle? 9) No, that's illegal too. 10) What's noodling? 11) When you put your hand in the fish's mouth.

Q5. 1) Where the river goes so they know if they're doing something that could end up in the river. They should know where the river goes so they know where to set up shop. 2) What about the oil -- what about cleanliness and is it safe to be in it? Can you get sick from the water? That's what worries me. It looks gross. 3) Can it harm you? 4) I have no idea. [no information or facts about the river] No, not really. 5) We need to at tourist stops with the little pamphlets for the businesses. 6) At the Chamber of Commerce. I've seen some stuff there about the Verde River. 7) Yes, they had little pamphlets made specifically to tell people about the Verde.

Q6. 1) I don't really understand that question. 2) Well, the people who go there; They're responsible taking care of it. 3) You mean people of status that can help support the river? [you, as individuals] 4) Picking up trash; other than that we don't really have any impact with the community. 5) We can talk with the forest service to see if they maintain it and monitor it more. 6) Educate people about it. 7) Maybe start a class. Get a group together to go down there once or twice a month or something to clean it and pick it up by sections. 8) Maybe we could have this group here...if we know about it maybe we could go talk with younger students so they know at an early age what the importance is of keeping the river clean so that they don't have that problem. 9) Get it in their heads early so they can tell people as they grow older and pass it on.

Q7. 1) Prescott. Isn't Prescott taking water out? I heard that in a couple of years the river is just going to be a creek because Prescott is going to take so much water. 2) What? 3) Like we were saying earlier...trash...polluting the water. 4) The biggest thing is the trash and all the pollution. 5) There have been a couple of dams built that's restricting the water in certain areas. [where are dams?] 6) Behind LaFonda's down in the Horseshoe Area. There is a new dam down there that I haven't seen before. And then there's across the street from the elementary school a couple of years ago. 6) Another one by Clear Creek - it's been there for quite a while. 7) It's a stick dam over there. It looked pretty big. 8) It's probably beavers.

Q8. 1) Make money; Making attractions down there. Venturous people; entrepreneurs. 2) Build like parks or something at the river and get local businesses that want to sponsor it -- have their names on it. 3) Put it in the paper. [for tourist attraction?} 4) Well, that might not be a good idea because more tourists are like more pollution. [how do we get info to more people?] 5) its a good thing to do that because a lot of people they don't know how important the river is to our society, I guess. I think they need to. 6) They just view the river as what they want it -- what they want to see about it. They don't see what it actually is. [consider or think about location of communities in the Verde Valley] 7) They're right next to the river. Back when the towns were made, that was their only water supply. They needed it to survive. 8) It's why the community was built here.

Q9. 1) I don't understand the question. [refer back to responses suggesting that attracting more people to the Verde River might not be such a good thing because of the trash, over use and lack of maintenance] 2) If people, if we make it a focal point like a park, people who are going to spend their money to go down to the river, I don't think they're the kind of people who would leave trash there. 3) People go down there now to hang out. But if we would start charging people, they couldn't go down there. [bike, canoe, kayak shop for example w/orientation about the river -- how would it work] 4) That's a pretty good idea. 5) I don't like it personally. I don't like the idea of making people pay to see the river. It's naturally there. Man didn't put it there so what would be the idea of charging people to go see it? 6) I don't think there needs to be anything down there. It's the river. It's there for a certain purpose. You know, if you have your own bike, take it down there. You don't need to be screwing it up with more people. It's just going to attract more people that are going to screw it up because not everybody is responsible. Just because you pay the money to go down there doesn't mean you're going to pick things up and it's going to be a lot harder. The river here in Camp Verde is one of the only things we have to do in this town. Most of the kids I know go hang out at the river and not a lot of them are going to be able to pay constantly to go down there. [assume there is no charge for public access points] 7) When you use the river you could pay. [commercial interests pay for its use] Yes, that's what I'm talking about. 8) Didn't there use to be a law about the river as long as you're 8' from the shore you can go anywhere -- no matter if it's someone's property? I know a lot of people down by my

house, they won't let me even kayak through where they own on the river because they own all the way across. 9) I think I've heard that if you own the land. 10) That's stupid. [a barrier and real issue surrounding laws and regulations] 11) I've always pushed for a law -- as long as you're 8' from the water line, you can be anywhere on the river. Interviewee: Evelyn Casuga (via conference call)Interviewer: Jane WhitmireDate: 1-26-11

Q1. Well...there is obviously the conventional communities that are along the Verde along with whatever potential development that would have been planned along the river is going to be hugely influential. Of course, there are the uses both further up and down the river that also influence the Verde as well.

Q2. I think people need to understand what the whole ecosystem is all about and what positively and negatively impacts the river. I think the public wants to have accessibility to the river but I think there needs to be an education about what that impact means to the river, as well, so that there is some level of sustainability going forward. The public needs to know what that is so that people can guide their behaviors. In my time there several years ago there was less conversation about the river, but in the 10-15 years span it was certainly an aspect but I don't that it was discussed in terms of economic development. [river as an asset] At the time, I didn't question the [the lack of the river being identified as an asset]. We talked about tourism draw, physical appearance of the whole region, but beyond that I don't know at that time it was an object of discussion. Now, things have changed and that's o.k.

Q3. I've been marginal now. You know there are entities within Yavapai County and that are emerging in the Verde Valley area. In the metropolitan area, with regard to the use of the river, the water in the river...there is a whole bunch of stakeholders there that are probably coming to the table with some conversation about the Verde.

Q4. There is the whole tourism aspect of the river and what that means to Arizona. There aren't too many flowing rivers in the state and so it's a natural draw provided there are areas that the public has access. Whatever uses that are complimentary to that access whether it is rafting or fishing or ... I don't know that there are too many higher intensity uses -- no water skiing, necessarily, but other activities that are compatible with that kind of open space water feature.

Q5. I would think that the federal and state agencies that have some jurisdiction over the waters of Arizona have a lot of information that can be used to determine the sustainability and the future of the river. I suppose it needs to be presented in a readable format and somebody needs to take the time to explain -- these are the facts; what are the implication of those facts -- whether it’s the use of the water in the river for commercial uses or ... there is only information you can show and level of analysis -- and what you're going to do to protect that resource for the future.

Q6. Well, I just taught a class in community development this morning and touched on it. My comments to the class are that you want to be more inclusive with all potential stakeholders rather than leaving somebody out. So, what that means is that you've got the local, regional, statewide public sector entities that need to be engaged in this conversation. You've got all of the people in the private sector whose businesses are affected by the river or who are affecting the river in some other way, whether its use in all aspects. So, I think that the list needs to be as long as it needs to be. If there is going to be some conversation about the river, it needs to make sure that all the Verde has an

opportunity for input. In creating those spaces for engagement, it's not just that we're going to post a public meeting, that's not good enough. I think to your point, you go to where the people are that are willing to have those conversations. They need to be those protected civic spaces where people feel like they are in an environment where they can feel comfortable to engage in a conversation. I also came from the Tucson Safeway and paid my respects to the victims this afternoon. (unclear verbiage.....).

Q7. Certainly when people don't want to engage in conversation. So, there has to be that willingness to have the conversation besides rules, regulations, policies and guidelines. I don't know that there is anything that I would add.

Q8. In addition to the laundry list -- local, regional, federal...., or others who are influencing or are influenced by the use of the water in the river, I would think that school children need to know the cultural value...school children in the Verde Valley, in particular, need to learn about the cultural value of the river and what it has meant to the region Verde Valley wide. So, you start building that civic pride early on and possibly couching in terms of the sustainability conversation. Kids are a lot more aware of what that means and what it means to them. They may see that we haven't taken care of things as well as we could have.

[how would outreach to children happen] Field trips are always a good thing so if they are out there in some part of the Verde and somebody can talk about Native American tribes that lives along the river and this is how they lived -- depending upon the age, it really does need to be tailored to whatever age the children are from kindergarteners to college students. The course needs to be tailored to a particular use group so when you're talking about Native Americans that lived along the river, of course that's a historical fact that the geography and the biology, all the sciences that come from life along the river and in the river. It's a very rich opportunity to tell a story. But I think it's when all of the pieces can come together to tell the big picture story of what the river means in terms of the economy of the region.

General comments: Evelyn worked in the Verde Valley for about 20 years. I've been there in relation to work. But as a resident of Arizona, I appreciate what the Verde Valley has to offer in terms of visiting friends and family. I've lived in Arizona since 1983 but started with APS 20 years ago. I interacted very tangentially with the river.

Concerns/excitement about the study: Nothing concerns me at all; it's exciting, I think that it's probably over-due; that the river is highlighted as a feature with a lot of potential upsides and downsides. People need to know what that story is all about. If there is some sense of wanting for it to be sustainable into the future, you have to put a spotlight on it. And, I think that the study will do that for you.

I hope the findings of the study are disseminated. Interviewee: Diane JoensInterviewer: Jane WhitmireDate: 1-24-11

Q1. Significant factors are human population and how do we deal with the issue that, so far, we live in a free country and people are going to move where they want to. So, how do we deal with accommodating the needs of people as well as protecting the river into perpetuity? I think that some of those mechanisms will be technologies that assist us in using less water and just public policy that is aware of the river as policy is made. I think also other factors are just things that we do. People are

actually a positive influence on the river too because we go out and we clean up which protects wildlife. If you pick up a string of line that they use to fish with that could possibly get into a blue heron's wings or feet and then they just fall off of a tree on this line and they die there...they're helpless. So, humans also do a lot. There are a lot of groups that are into thinking about the river and caring about it. A lot of government agencies, that's their job too. Arizona Game and Fish and then the national organization for wildlife too.

Q2. Well, I think that the ongoing studies that we've been doing since I've been in water issues for the past 10 years are a positive so that we know. Also, land planning. For instance, the State Trust Land parcels. We have a huge section of state trust lands for better or for worse. And, we've tried to change the Constitution four or five times. The last ballot had a question on for protecting state trust lands it got voted down again. And this was one that the governor and the Central Arizona Homeowners Association...I mean everybody had input, The Nature Conservancy and the voters still voted it down. So, until we can change the Constitution, those 10 square miles are out there and how do you deal with that? Well, Cottonwood is saying that if it has to be developed that we're going to use purple pipe to take wastewater in to flush toilets kind of like they do at Tuscayan right now. They are very water limited. Our tiered water rates have reduced the amount of pumpage that we have done. There are just all kinds of things. We've gone in and fixed a lot of underground pipe that would be leaking and so that saves water. So, you know it's just technology and doing things to conserve water, I think, that will help the river in the long run too. [changing behaviors and technology; Constitutional amendment - why was it voted down?] Well, you still have groups that are against any change. And, a lot of times they are the groups that are connected with the education field because 90% of that money goes to K-12 and I think there's concern that money will be redirected or they won't get the funds. But, if you look at the overall picture of the budget of schools, not that much of it comes from state trust lands so I don't know what the public ...so far no one has been able to convince them. I worked really hard. It was Prop 206 about four years ago or something. I worked really hard with the Sonoran Institute on that proposition and I mean they were out there. People were. And, it still failed, but that time the legislature did an initiative that confused the voters, too. I think, you know, I'm starting to think that the more population we have and the more diversity that we have, the less likely...people do not like change, you know. If you look at the Verde Santa Fe neighborhood. When they came in, Cornville wouldn't even talk to those people. But now they're part of the community. Change, as an elected official, any change is met with usually resistance. Not speaking as elected official, as citizen, change, I guess, is hard. I've never minded change, personally, because I came to Arizona in 1953 as not quite a 2 year-old. People that have lived here two years don't want any change. But, if I look at the change from the time I was 2 until now, people...it's not realistic to think that life isn't going to change. So, how do we deal with that? How do we deal with -- we know people are still having children and we know that kids in school might want to stay here -- might not, we know that retirees want to come here. So, how do we deal with change that's coming in a positive way and protect the river? I guess I'm a Pollyanna that I think that within reason that we have to think of all of that -- all of those issues. There are a lot of water groups that are just of the mindset that no one else should ever move here and no one else is going to come. It's just not realistic. We have to...as an elected official it's so difficult because what you're heart yearns for in your special interests you can no longer operate on just strictly special interests. You have to look at everybody's issue; everybody's thoughts. That's one challenge that I think. I'm pretty good at looking at all sides and really caring deeply about the river. I think the important thing is that some studies are...you've got to be sure that they're scientific so that policy makers do have information that they can use based on everybody else’s special interest too. I mean, be careful what you wish for too. People want no growth at all. Well, I have lived ...my little home town back in Iowa had 1,000 people 20 years ago when I left. Now, it's dying. Every time I go back there is another store that's empty or ..that was

Manilla, Iowa. But I grew up in Sierra Vista -- that's where I actually spent my childhood. So, we you know...and I go to Sierra Vista and it's like...I just took my mom down there this weekend and that's a huge issue with the San Pedro River. Their growth down there and what they're trying to do. The really hard thing for Sierra Vista is the water companies are privately owned and you don't have any say about rates and tiered rates and trying to conserve as far as selling water goes. So, Arizona is just...it's so diverse and there are so many challenges. I guess, on this Nature Conservancy plan that we're working on...an economic plan, I don't know if you've heard about it...well, it's not done, it's just sort of in the process. It's supposed to be done in December. I'm not sure what happened. But, I don't know (Doug's) just got...he's been very active with the Walton Foundation and got their ear, I think, for getting funds into the Verde Valley. I think too, and this is one of my favorite, favorite things and I don't know if ...it talks about all the roles that rivers play. It is actually a quote that I got out of the Verde River Almanac from Carol of the Bureau of Rec. "The Verde River is a unique environmental resource that contains a significant amount of riparian habitat left in Arizona and must be respected and protected. The Verde River is also a significant water supply and recreational corridor. Beyond its physical importance, the future condition of the Verde River may eventually represent how successful Arizona is in finding accommodation for all the roles that rivers play." I've always thought that was true because we're just not there. We elect very, very conservative representatives usually. ADWR has been decimated. They talk about cities and towns raising $7m to $20m a year along with counties to pay for ADWR and then, I guess, people that pump water from small wells won't have to pay anything. As far as Arizona water law, ground water is not connected to surface water which is ridiculous.

Q3. Well, I would have to refer you to the City of Cottonwood's Focus on Success plan because we are through our first year's steps on this plan and actually the river is talked about many times in this plan -- the Verde River and doing things to help the river. I think that for what Cottonwood has done, and I'm talking as a citizen, and you can link things on Casey's site with the Cottonwood Economic Development on the City of Cottonwood...but you could link think this to whatever your website is. Something that high school students and things like that..I've worked with the water audit for the Cottonwood Middle School for two years or three years now. We go in and work with the Extension Service and we measure... for instance, how much drinking water. We go and measure; we get a pan and while they're drinking we measure how much is being wasted. Then we pour it into this container where we measure how much it is. Then you go in and measure how much water you're using in the sinks and then the toilets -- how much water they use when they flush. And then you do some outside measurements too and then the class can see. They make recommendations to the school on how to save water. I've done that two years and the kids got a Governor's Rural Development award one year -- the first year that they did it. So, we're working with the kids and I would try to talk with them. Not too many other people do but I would say, "Why do you want to conserve?" And then I would talk about the river and how it's the only ...we're one of the few cities in the whole state that have a river running through our town. So, the other thing that the council has been doing too as personal volunteers is the Project WET which is water education for teachers. You know I would have to actually refer to the whole plan. Yes, if you would look, and Casey knows what they are and I know what they are but I just don't know off the top of my head.

Q4. Well, I think the tourism piece is probably what The Nature Conservancy study is going toward and what, as far as people, that Margaret from the Walton Foundation because she has to do things for people too, not just the river which I'm...I'm a mayor for people and nature. You know you can't leave out ...if you're talking about sustainability and you try to leave out people which, I'm sorry, but you know some of the studies that are being done are anti-people and so my concern is how do we consider people's needs and the river's needs. How do we keep the river while considering the needs of people,

wildlife, and the whole pie. I'm just not a kill all the people kind of person. And sometimes I feel that...and I'm part of some of the groups that don't want to consider people at all so it's just a fine line. So, potential economic development opportunities, I guess, our waste/reclamation plant that we're going to be building down at Riverfront Park would be a good example of economic development. It's going to be able to..It will provide green grass all year round for say like Little League or Adult League and that brings people into the community and it also could back into the Verde River. But it will also leave the water that we use now from the ditch in the ditch so hopefully more will get to the river. It's actually wastewater and it will be treated to an A++ standard plus we're going to be removing the pharmaceuticals from it and that technology is newborn. So, we are doing those kinds of things because we feel like it brings in the public and they stay in our public; they eat in our restaurants; and we get sales tax from that to provide services. [interpretative information on site?] We will because one piece of this is that it's going to be an educational facility so the children will be able to come from school and go to this plant and look at how it all works and what it's doing and it will have the message about the Verde River. So, that’s big piece of this project is the educational component.

Q5. Well, I think that we're not inventing the wheel here. It's been ongoing for some time, I think, that there is a connection and information and facts. I just got some information from Virginia Turner about all of the connections with the economy and the Verde River. Actually, it's more about mining and the mining up by Grand Canyon -- the uranium mining and the 20-year additional time that has Salazar may ask for. She was telling me how much economic development tourism there is just from the Grand Canyon. People come to Sedona; people come to Cottonwood. I haven't got enough information to form an opinion about it but I did look at those studies from NAU. But she was saying there was $600m, if I recall, I just met with her last Thursday, in the northern Arizona area of tourism that comes from the Grand Canyon. And, of course, then we're protecting like the Colorado River too. We're just part of the system of the Verde...it goes down to the Gila and to the Colorado. Virginia is working for the Grand Canyon Trust and they are opposed to the mining. She was Governor Napolitano's northern Arizona contact and then she worked for Ann Kirkpatrick the past two years. Now she is tired of losing her job so she's going to go back to consulting. I mean there are so many answers to these things and off the top of my head I'm not doing really well. I mean, we're doing so much in the arena.

Q6. Well I think the Chambers of Commerce. I mean our Chamber of Commerce is a huge promoter of the Birding and Nature Festival -- it's their event. The city helps when we can. We donate some funding. The Chamber is very active in Verde River Days. They are one of the big... So, I think the economic development type leaders, I think, in this community have a real appreciation of the river and I think elected officials. Between Cottonwood...we actually have at this point, elections may change things, a very aware council on the river and the riparian area and those kinds of issues. You know when we had this big hoora thing with the federal land that we were going to annex, a lot of that, you know, was just not understanding exactly where some leaders were going with that and that's all I'll say about it. But, I think the city councils are also...can provide leadership to how people know. You know, the new Wine Consortium that is getting back to our agricultural roots - I love that thought. You know, it's part of, you know you have agriculture and have the least impact on the aquifer or the river. So there's just so many things going on right now that have that in mind.

Q7. Well, for instance, you give us some good thoughts -- a lot of them are regulations. You know I think small well owners are a problem; they are just as much of a problem as municipalities or private water companies. They are so protected. They have to give no information about what they do and yet they are sucking out of the same aquifer so we need some kind of continuity in that we're all responsible. They [small well owners] don't want to provide information generally. They're very

protective of their information. And then the irrigators...the ditch companies. 50% of that goes back into the aquifer, supposedly, and provide a greenbelt for the wildlife so it's not a bad thing. I think that it's just ...and I'm so happy they have water rights prior to SRP, even though I definitely think SRP and we have the same goal, which is to keep water in the river so that's a good thing, but the ditch companies have prior water rights to that and they are what makes it green but I guess the issue with them is that there is no measurable way to measure how much they are taking. So, if they're growing a lot of crops -- say mostly in the Camp Verde area, then, or even up here when the Cottonwood Ditch takes their share, sometimes the river is dry for a ways and how can we keep water in the river so that it isn't dry because fish can't swim on dry land. Water companies... Well, those are the ones I thought of. I think that public ownership of water companies is best...that's my personal opinion because private water companies, if you looked at their balance sheets, almost no funding went back into the system. It's just profit and they also don't have to provide fire hydrants. Can you imagine Verde Village was built with no fire hydrants and part of Cottonwood too because private water companies don't have to provide fire hydrants. So, it's just seems to me, studying both sides, that public is better and then you can control more. Private, you just want to sell water. Public you want to pay off your bond but you can also adopt tiered rate. We have our ... signs about drought. So, in the months when we used to give all the notices from the private companies to not use water because the wells are dry, we've been able to mitigate those issues because we can pass laws that say people can't water from 9:00 or 7:00 until 6:00 at night. [signs as reminders of water conservation/resource] And we have worked with restaurants. We worked with ADWR and our local restaurants to get the spray nozzles that take less water. We've asked them to not provide water; they don't have to; but unless people ask. Now you go to a lot of restaurants and you don't get water unless you ask for it. Another guy that used to be on the council that works in a restaurant, they defrost food with running water. Can you imagine how much that wastes? But they're required to by the Health Department. But I'd think there would be some other way -- put it in your refrigerator ...plan ahead. [they have to have the water running?] Yes, because the water could get warm and make the food ... So, those are the kind of regulations and laws that we need to look at that - that kind of stuff.

Q8. Well, you know, one thing I just want to say about all of these questions, is our current businesses and how we keep them healthy and support them. It's just like we participated, and Casey and this NACOG B3 -- Building Businesses to Businesses. Now we would go around to various businesses inside the city and ask them questions about their...confidential, about payroll and how many people did they support through their business and it's surprising. We have a business at the airport that they have the joints for huge equipment like Caterpillar and they send all over the world this thing that they make. Then we have another one that does the test strips for diabetes, those that go out all over the world. So, it's having jobs like that ...low water use jobs. At one time Casey mentioned a packing house and I was like, "too much water." And then chips from computer -- too much water. So we need...those kinds of businesses should be back in the Midwest where it rains. Farming...people would be very hungry without American farmers. So, it's having a been a farmer, and disliking the chemical part of it, but it's how are we going to feed people is the challenge. So, I think American farmers feed like, I don't know how many families besides themselves, in the world.

Q9. Well, I think getting legislators to the river like train trips...actually getting more people from the Prescott area to come over because it's their river too. It's not just a Cottonwood or a Clarkdale or a Camp Verde or a Verde Valley river, it belongs to the state; it belongs to the nation; it belongs to all of the people and it's a precious desert resource. We have Senator McCain. He is on a tributary of the Verde. He seems to appreciate it but he is also conservative enough to, like the Partnership, because we couldn't get all the parties...and I don't actually, I don't blame him. If you can't get everybody on board,

you know...So, yes, just getting everyday people to the side of the river makes them want to protect that resource more because they will have knowledge about how great it is.

General comments: [focused money] Well, actually I would ask the Walton Foundation to purchase the State Trust Lands and make it open space. Interviewee: Virginia LevyInterviewer: Jane WhitmireDate: 1-23-11

Q1. Good Question. I have no clue. I really don't. The river is actually very clean. I've tubed down the river in very clean waters. I wouldn't drink it. I was actually surprised when I went tubing last summer. The water was super pristine and really clean and there was no trash. There was no dead fish; there was nothing to indicate that it was not in good health. So, I guess the only thing that's contributing to influencing the health would be us. We're doing something right - at least in that little section. Now, I will say this, if you go further north -- over by I17 where the bridge crosses over there -- this is where it gets to be real interesting and this isn't anybody's fault -- well, it is and it isn't. I used to think, "Well, who would steal a car and bury it half way up to the roof in sand, you know, on a sand bar?" It was from a flood. So, if there are any pollutants or anything that is harming our river, I would say it would be the floods that sweep down our toxic stuff into the water and then you don't find it. This car was up to the roof in sand. You wouldn't know it was a car until you rode over it and something kicked the sand away.

Q2. These are hard questions. I would have to say the only thing is not underestimating it because I think that is what people are doing. We're under estimating how far that river can go and what it can do in flooding or runoff, which, in that respect, would make sense. That they're not, you know, they're building right up against it and Mother Nature says, time for a flood. Time's up.

Q3. I have not seen any kind of development in Camp Verde - nothing.

Q4. Oh I think that they should bring back the rafting trips in town. I wish I had taken advantage of it when they were here in town. I always kept thinking I'd do it tomorrow and then never got around to it. But, they moved out and, I guess, moved back into Sedona, and I guess now have a different setup. You can still do that but ... something that's fun, you know. I mean they don't even have a park on the river that.... [one day experience with daughter] It was the one day that we didn't fight. [do you think it was the river that did that?] Absolutely because there was no cell phone, no friends, no TV, no computer, no distractions, no pollutants, no cars...just nature. I would love to keep it that way, absolutely. We ride our horses through it, you know, up and down there. I would like to see, and this is just a selfish thing because I'm riding horses that get nuts when they see an ATV fly by or dirt bikes fly by, I would like to see those guys, you know, be in a designated area so that riders know where those guys are. [seen by the river?] Well, they are more ...they can ride back here on ATVs but they haven't. It's on private property and I think it's the ranchers just keeping the trails clear. I don't think that they're a problem but ...all the way up and down the river, people like to ride. And there are some surprises when you get ...you mix an ATV and horse rider. I've had it happen and I think it's more up river than down here -- across from the high school on all those trails back there. But, I don't want to tell the ATV riders that they are not welcome because that's not fair either. We just need more awareness, at least have some kind of ground rules if you're in horse country. Horses have right away -- you shut your motorcycle down so you're not endangering peoples' lives.

Q5. Native Americans would love this answer, but I think that they should be brought in on that. They have a right to speak because, even though I'm not Native American, I do honor their ways and their teachings and I think that what we've done with them and to the land here is raw deal and that they should be consulted. They need to know that there's stuff going on with the river and the animals and nature that, I don't know, I would like to see less things on the river to keep it natural. But, you know, to give us a place to go when we want to be in nature and not have to worry about humanity or trash or stuff like that. I don't know if that really answers that. [understanding the river through teachings] There is also, too, it's not just a matter of Native Americans. We sometimes lend them way too much credit and say that they are the ones that are the nature keepers, but, in truth, if you really want to know about the river, sit down there and talk to it. She'll talk to you. Most people aren't...their mind is so closed that they don't believe that nature can communicate with them. You know, they go out on their little hikes and then go back to their homes and computers and they totally forget. They don't go and talk to a tree and they call people that do "treehuggers" or "crazy" or whatever. That's real information and when you think about it...I would like to, on the record, nobody ever realizes that Camp Verde is a war zone. It promotes war, death, disease, disruption. And I mean that in a very literal sense. We hail General Crook Trail. He slaughtered people; he murdered them on the river and we make him the hero. There is something wrong with that. Everybody was fighting over the river -- everything; I can show you some places on the river that are haunted -- absolutely haunted. You can hear the screams of the massacre as it was going on at night. It's eerie; real eerie. Right there where I17 crosses -- all up and down there. Go down there for a walk at night and you'll be like "alrighty then." There's stuff there -- the energy here is all about fortress and protection and war and fighting. We're trying to keep that alive - why? Why aren't we promoting love and peace and how it should come to a place of resolution instead of...nature and/or go float on the river with your fellow-man. I think we should have a better setup. If we're going to put anything on the river, as far as economical growth-type business, give those people that have the river run program, like the canoeing and the tubing and all that, give them a good place to go in and out (access). It's really hard to go in and out of there because you have to climb a really steep hill. Have you ever done that? It's very steep and they could only take you up a mile to the drop-off point. Why not give them more than that. If you go down the Salt River, it's like a full day's ride and I guess you can go all day long and you never see the same place twice. Why aren't we doing that here? It would be economically-speaking, it would bring in more tourists. I didn't even know they did this on the river and I don't even know how I found out. Oh, I know, it was in Sedona. Go figure. I have to be in Sedona to get a flier about Camp Verde. Why didn't I know that was here? So, there is no real publicity or promoting of these fun things to do in this town. So, it gives you the illusion that we're just a ... an old fortress that's trying to keep alive on war. So, there you have it.

Q6. It would have to be people who live in Camp Verde. If you're going to go in the river, people who live along the river. They really have no sense of community here -- none. It's Big Brother controlling us telling us what we can and cannot do. It's not inviting; it's not welcoming; it's not ...you don't really get that warm, fuzzy feeling like, " I can't wait to go to Camp Verde."

Q7. Good ol' boy. I can say that. I'm a homeowner; I live here; I pay $2,000 in taxes for what? I can't wait to get out of this town half the time and you know, nobody wants to go to Camp Verde. They want to go somewhere else. They go to Cottonwood; they go to Sedona; they go to Prescott. They don't want to go to Camp Verde. Who is in the way? The Good Old Boy Club and they need to let go of the past if they want this place to survive because this town is dying on the vine. Nobody wants to be here and a very short time, if it keeps going the way it's going, nobody will be. It will be a ghost town.

Q8. Is this a trick question? That is a good question; I really don't know. I don't know how you would use a study like this, I really don't, because you always have studies, surveys, you know, but nothing ever seems to get done. There are no goals; there is no plan; there is no target. It's just drag crap out and bury people in red tape. Nobody ever resolves anything. There is no common goal where everybody says, "Well, let's go create something that's really fun -- maybe a slide park"; instead of using rhetoric or using big fancy words to confuse people and make yourself sound intelligent.

General comments - concerns/suggestions: No. I gave up being paranoid about the government a long time ago. [this isn't the government] You know, I will say, and this is important...all joking and kidding aside. I ride up and down this river for 11 years. I've never, ever come across any wildlife except a deer -- one time. Where are the animals? Why aren't they there? And, I'm riding at all hours of the day and night so it's not like I'm not hitting it when they would be out. There is evidence of otters and beavers on the trail. But, there ... you don't even see raccoons ...just no wildlife. You can ride out here in the desert anywhere and there is nothing. It's like -- where are all the animals? What happened? What do they know that we don't know? Or, what are we doing to them that's making them not come back? What is killing them off? That and ... you would think that you would see eagles, or eagle nests or ...you see them once in a while - a red tail hawk, but we're in eagle country, why aren't there eagles flying around? Where are they? So, that's my two cents. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.Interviewee: Judy PinerInterviewer: Jane WhitmireDate: 1-21-11

Q1. Well, first of all, I'd like to say, because we're here at the Yavapai Apache Cultural Center, that I'm not speaking as a representative for the Yavapai Apache Nation. The significant factors influencing the health of the Verde River system...I'd have to say first off that the water is being channeled off to many, many places. And, historically that's always been true, too. Even historically when farming was first developing here, people jumped on that river and channeled off water and I've heard stories about how come those guys by the river get the water and there's nothing left for us. So, historically that's always happened. But we live in a world of over-population and there are so many people -- too many people for a lot of the resources and a lot of this water is being channeled off before it ever gets to the Verde Valley.

Q2. I think we need to understand, maybe the biggest thing we need to understand, is that the water won't be there forever -- that the water is a finite resource, as are all of our resources whether it's iron for steel or gold. It's getting used up at a faster rate. There is going to be a day when water costs more than gasoline a gallon and we've been very fortunate in our lifetimes to have water be sort of free. But, if we channel it off and if it's not there anymore, it will be gone one day. I was cataloging some images from Clarkdale in the 1930s and there are two views of the river and it's huge -- it's wide, it's big, it looks like I imagine the Missouri or the Mississippi, no the Mississippi is bigger. But, it's like a real river, you know. Now, it's just a little tiny - almost a creek; a stream.

Q3. I don't know that I know of any economic development. I mean, there are some small things going on. There's river rafting and things like that. One significant thing that's going on in the river that I really like but I'm not sure we call it economic development, is the greenway system - the fact that we're trying to find ways to preserve, not only the course of the river, but try to acquire footage on either side where it might be able to more public.

Q4. I probably don't know of any. There be some but I don't really know of any. [imagine some on own] Well, I think the river is a really good resource for many things and one of those things would be protecting it for some sort of public use. My vision would be to have a trail along the river and part of that greenway system and I know that the greenway system goes down the course of the river as opposed to on the land. But, wouldn't it be neat to have a river trail that went from Tuzigoot to somewhere east of Camp Verde? I started looking into that a little bit. I was on the Trails Commission for Camp Verde which was abandoned due to economic factors so... a committee turned into a commission and then was abandoned because of the economy...because, at the commission, they had to have staff there, moderating it, taking minutes and stuff like that and they couldn't pay over time. We weren't paid, but the city did support it. So, that was the end of that and I doubt that it will be renewed/reconstructed/brought back. During my time there, I realized that very little got done and that's another good reason for dissolving that commission. During the time there, I would say that our agenda looked the same every single month and then people told me that it had been that way for 3-4 years. And, I'm not sure how effective I would have been, but there had been an idea in the past about creating a river trail from about where the freeway was to Black Bridge and I wanted to revisit that idea and just barely got started. Got it on the agenda a few times and started looking at it and started talking to the engineer and seeing what could be done because a lot of that land is, to some extent, public domain. There is park service land, national land, etc. I don't know if you knew about...here's an economic development one that didn't happen - the enviroseum. An interesting and ambitious young man from Sedona had this idea to create this museum about the environment -- kind of a scientific museum with a lot of technology; a lot of interactive stuff and he chose Camp Verde for the location for that. He had cooperation, at least, from SRP. He was looking at a piece of land somewhere out there next to the SRP plot -- next to the SRP and Simonton property, and Simonton was on board with it and state parks and forest service were on board and it was going to involve a trail also. Well, he, at the last minute, was really going along nicely, and he lost his funding. He had a significant donor who passed away before it happened. His name was Richard Kimball. So, and I think, he's moving the venue to another state because he couldn't get -- but it would have been a real boom for Camp Verde, for the Verde Valley and it involved the river. So, there's one that went away. I think Camp Verde could look in that direction as a place for people to come to. It has the river; the river is a wonderful asset. But it could use the river and things like that - a natural system - to bring people out here. It doesn't have Jerome; it doesn't have ...it has its western flavor, but even that is somewhat limited. [photos of Clarkdale and river] I know from conversations that I have had here, that while the river is diminished in size, actually the Clarkdale river is healthier than it was at the time when the elders here were growing up because of the smelters and those things. There is more vegetation there now than there was at that time and they speak of the river as being healthier. But certainly look at those picture, I know the river doesn't look like that now. I'd like to see some Camp Verde ones now.

Q5. I wish I knew the answer to that. I'm not one of those mover and shaker kind of people. I wish I was more you -- that picks up the phone and says, "O.k. I want this to happen, what do I do?" Or, that can find the direction. I make a really good grunt person I make a really good person that, you know, I'm willing to put in the foot work folding the envelopes and stuffing envelopes and stuff like that but I'm not the "go out and find the path" and that's partly why I didn't move any faster with the trails. I was looking for that path that you do -- who do you talk to; who do you go to to say, I want this trail. I want to see it happen. I know it's doable. [a repository accessible for information and/or support] I did a workshop once on kind of the state of the Verde Valley. I do digital stories. And, I did digital story workshops and I had a small grant, along with the college, to do that. And it was interesting trying to find those people. And I went to a lot of websites and did a lot of things and made a lot of lists of those people but, you know, how do you get to them? I only had 3-4 responses even though I sent out a

couple hundred letters. [networks and relationships] Look at the kind of networking even in that little short moment that we had to write that grant [rural economic grant to state] That's where I met you. But, other people met other people too. And, I was there because of Ken Sole. That then got me acquainted with the new town manager. Even though you are seeing people you know, you are seeing them in a slightly different context. I've known Carol German for years and years and years and we've worked together. So, it was neat to see Carol there. So, you kind of reconnect with people in different ways and build that spider web.

Q6. I don't know that I know the answer to that. It's kind of the response to our last question of not knowing the answer to that. You can also say who should it be? It should be the leaders of the community. It should be the town council and the staff and the city manager. It should be the Chamber of Commerce. It should be a lot of different things and a lot of different people. And all of those people being able to come together; and citizens being able -- and make some logical decisions without backstabbing. We did a pretty good job at that grant thing, too.

Q7. Political and personal divisions. Camp Verde, in particular, has always been a divisive community. There is always this faction and this faction. My husband has been here a long time and he always tells me that it's amazing just to sit back and watch and, in some ways, it's sad and it's a barrier. He likes it because it just keeps Camp Verde from doing anything because he wants Camp Verde to stay the same. So, you can either call it a barrier or you can call it an advantage, I don't know. And I think you find that divisiveness between the communities here too. Of course, each community has to look out for their own. And each community has a totally different flavor and take on the world. Those are probably the biggest barriers. [contention] It's also what keeps us from getting river trails. I think I told you before that when Bill Lee was here, he was ready to break ground. And there was only one little strip that was stopping anything and he was ready to break ground and at least build what he could build. And do it, instead of doing a study and building this and finding $5m to build the river trail, he was just going to take the backhoe out there and put down some sort of covering for the trail that would allow it to -- it could be washed away and put back again. Going back to one of your earlier questions, if somebody wants to get something done, who do you got to; who do you talk to; what's the process to get something done? I don't know what the process is and that's an interesting question because a lot of people out there might have an idea or might want to do this or that and don't know how to go about it to make it happen. [repository of ideas] I like that.

Q8. Certainly the cities and town whether they are or not... I don't know. I'm not really sure; will it really advance the protection of the river? I don't know. I would actually wonder about that you know or would it find uses on the river that might be deleterious to the river in the long run anyway. [response; purpose of study is to get baseline river and any links with healthy economy] One of the things too that I think about economic development is, we can say the words sustainable economic development and, to some extent, that's a contrary concept. We can try but we ...we are using up our resources so fast that economic development or economics in itself probably has to change drastically from the very baseline. I did some work...I found myself teaching a class on sustainability in a graduate university in California. It was mostly an online course and they said, "Oh, we want somebody different because it kind of a psychology basis to it." So they hired an anthropologist to teach this sustainability course. And I had to do sort of a crash course on sustainability myself. I thought of myself as a forward thinking person in that way. The realization that you can come to is that our economy is damaging to everything around us and we love capitalism. I love capitalism; I love technology. But, it still is damming to us and our economy may have to do some drastic changes soon. So, it's hard for me to take seriously that term "sustainable economic development." I'm not sure it exists so it's hard to answer the

questions in that context. We have to look at the river and the things around us in new ways. I'm not sure if that answered the question or not. I think that we do -- the right term is a paradigm shift in how we think about it.

Q9. Well, if the health of the river comes back again, there possibly could be other ideas if the river were a half a mile wide and looked like it did back then. I'll show you the picture before you leave. And, there may be many ideas that could develop as the health of the river grows. One of the unhealthy aspects of the river, and one of the problems with the river is, and here is another barrier that I hadn't thought of, is the environmental aspects of different things. So, the river is filled with invasive species. O.K. Here is an invasive species. This group of people wants to get rid of it. That's a good thing. Here's another set of environmental specialists who want to preserve this little bird that's nesting in that tree. He's nesting in the tamarisk and there's a tamarisk grove along the path where that trail might be. And SRP is dedicated to saving this bird and that's partly why they were donating some of this land to this project and yet that might be a barrier to the trail. So here are two do-gooder sets of people who are fighting each other. But, if the river becomes healthier in many ways, whether it's the invasive species or just getting our water back, so to speak, there's more opportunities for things to go on in the river. You can have a little coffee house down by the river and you can have this down by the river and things going on in the water in some places that are interacting circumstances -- whatever that may be for the river.

[additional interviews] I think that's a better question to ask Mr. Randall. I don't like to make that particular suggestion. I have tried to find people for my workshop [folks who may/may not be thinking about river in the same way]. And this workshop was specifically on the Verde Valley -- do a digital story on how you feel about this place. And, I really tried to find some people that would be -- like developers out there doing it. I thought that would be a lot of fun to be able to compare those stories. But, I didn't get those people. I couldn't find them; they weren't interested; maybe asking them to tell -- they might think that was a negative thing or didn't want other people to perceive them as that. I never identified anybody. I did have one real estate lady and she actually wrote/did one of the best stories. She did a story that was influential in getting Page Springs Road onto the national -- scenic byway. That digital story was used for that. And there were several on the river. I did mention Linda Buchanan. Another person who did a water story -- Bob Olephant (sp?) He's been in a lot of these water meetings and things. Chris Coder, our archaeologist at YAN.

[focused money] I'm not sure money is the answer. People are the answer and I don't know where money could be spent. For one thing, we've spent tons of money -- we've spent tons of money doing studies. Here we are doing another study, in a way. But, you know, they've done...every year it seems like they're raising money to do another study and throwing money into studies. As much as me, the researcher, likes to do that, I don't know if it's the answer. [encouraged by WFF and the focus of dollars, time and space -- linkage of projects] I think that's what important. That's the critical issue is somehow finding ways to bring people together and, of course, you have these different issues and interests. We have the people who don't see a paradigm shift is necessary in the economy or that they have money invested in their own projects. If you're a developer in Chino Valley, you're going to want the water. If you live there, you're going to want the water. So, you have vested interests and I'm not sure money is really going to change that unless money were used in some larger area where you were creating ...using money to buy open space to slow development and that's an area where...there are some people who are doing some interesting things in that. It would be nice for the world to have access to it [referring to the digital stories about the river]. It does take a little bit of money to do it. It takes the computer and if somebody could put together a foundation where you had 10 computers in a

room like this and it could be done every day. The college chose to fire us, of course. It existed at the college. We had a department that did this and that was one of the first ones to go with some of the economy things going on. That's a place where money has an impact. I think you still have to get people interested, you know. It isn't always...I can do a workshop a month here. And, it still a struggle to get people to come in and do the stories. Some of that is Indian time...some of that is "Oh, that was yesterday?" Or, they'll show up on Friday for a 4-day workshop. "What do you mean it takes four days?" So, there's those issues and time for everybody. You know, if you're a working person, can you take off work 4 days for something as frivolous as a digital story. It's wonderful. I'm really looking forward to doing them for the centennial and we'll be cooperating with the college through Linda Buchanan for that. You'll have to come and do one.

[concerns/excitement of the study] I think I've said it and I didn't mean it to be an insult...is that it's another study. You know, I like the backhoe idea. I like the 'get your hands dirty.' I like getting out there. I don't do it, I'm embarrassed to say, but I like the people that go out and pick up the trash every month and another study can mean that the doing just gets put off because we're studying it. I don't know...I would rather have somebody going out and talking to that one landowner that's in the way of the trail and getting SRP back on board. We know that state parks and the forest service are on board, or at least they were then. And, getting out the backhoe...and I use that as a metaphor for doing something else for another project. So, the studies worry me in that money that gets money poured into the study instead of into the infrastructure.Interviewee: Jodie FilardoInterviewer: Jane WhitmireDate: 1/20/11

Q1. One of the most important factors, I believe, is public education. I think people don't understand why they should care about the Verde River and not only the general public doesn't understand the impact of the Verde River and why they should care, but also our elected officials largely don't understand that either. So, I think that education is probably one of the most important factors influencing the health because people that don't understand the value of the river aren't going to work hard to protect it. So, I think that's probably the most important.

Q2. I think understanding the Verde River in the context of sustainability for the entire region is really important. In the Verde Valley now, we are beginning to raise the level of dialogue about sustainability across the region. The Verde River plays a critical role in that. Understanding how it integrates with our ability to maintain our quality of life, the air quality that we have, our ability to feed ourselves, our transportation needs, the health and welfare of the communities here in the Verde, I think need to be fully integrated and discussed from a public policy point of view, engage our citizens in that discussion and move forward to a holistic plan for the entire region. You know I think we have to start in each of our communities, branch out to the Verde Valley and then really engage all of northern Arizona in that discussion. People don't understand that they need to fit together; that they're important for our future. And, I think that's a root cause issue behind why people aren't engaging in all of this dialogue that needs to happen. [how do we bring understanding to the front?] I think investing in projects such as the Walton Family Foundation is doing now is an exceptionally important first step. We need to have data and I think we're all about getting that data now because for years people have shared their own personal opinions about things but personal opinions when you're trying to sway large numbers of people and provide funding for projects to improve a wide variety of aspects of quality of life here in the Verde Valley, are only a first step in gaining public opinion. We have to have the data to back up our opinions for, I think, the funding sources to be able to open up on the checkbook and be able to support

development of new directions for the Verde Valley. Data is also fundamental in establishing sustainable directions. As we're exploring agriculture in the Verde Valley now, one of the things that people do not understand about that whole agricultural discussion is the fact that the reason Yavapai County is interested in reducing the amount of agriculturally designated land in the Verde Valley is a numbers game. That's how their funding comes to fund services for the citizens of Yavapai County. So, people who are interested in growing, re-establishing agriculture in the Verde Valley, need to engage with the county in meaningful dialogue based on data to understand how we are going to find a reliable funding source for the county if not through the rezoning of land into more higher valued zoning classes. Data is at the heart of that. Funding what is being funded now and a lot more of it, is a first step because until we know what we're talking about, we run the risk of engaging people, getting them all excited about things, then have them burrow into it to realize we don't know what we're talking about. So, I think a logical process has to be put into place to obtain the data that we need. We need to probably, then, have a reliable source for this data so that people, when they're wishing to engage on a variety of these topics, understanding that they are interconnected, there's a place for people to go to get meaningful, reliable, current data so that the proper people can engage with assurity of leading public opinion in a direction that we can support and that will take us in the right direction for our future.

Q3. Well, there are two organizations, I think, that are working on agriculturally oriented initiatives and one is the Verde Valley Wine Consortium which has recently spun out as its own organization having been birthed by the Verde Valley Regional Economic Organization. I don't think they've yet gotten their 501 c 6 designation, their IRS designation, but they have incorporated and they've officially removed their bank account from the VVREO bank account. So, they have turned into a viable, separate organization as of the January board meeting of VVREO. So that's a very exciting development in the Verde Valley and they, of course, are driving the development of the whole viticulture and enology oriented businesses here in the Verde Valley so they are certainly water users. Many of the vineyards are planted along the Verde River or are on ditch irrigated property so that certainly has a really important impact on the Verde River and has an economic development impact. Similarly, another organization has been formed, but is not separate from VVREO. It's operating as an organization shepherded as an organization under the VVREO and that is the Verde Valley Agricultural Coalition and that is a group of growers, policy people, marketing and distribution people, educators - all of whom are interested in the agricultural renaissance of the Verde Valley and that is another high impact economic development oriented organization that does impact the health and welfare of the Verde River. So, I think those two are the main ones of which I'm aware right now.

Q4. If I were more creative, I'd have better answers for you on that. Certainly as people move into the Verde Valley, people are very interested in outdoor recreation here. I don't think the enormity of outdoor recreational opportunities visa vi the Verde River have been fully explored. Certainly as we are proceeding with the Clarkdale Sustainability Park, one of the things that we keep discussing is are there ways in which we can provide public access to the Verde River because we think that's important. People can't underdstand the importance of the river if they can't ever get to it. So, here in Clarkdale, we are very interested in finding ways to get people to the river. Thus far they have been more recreationally oriented so I think there are certainly some elements there. There are also, I think, they're economically oriented opportunities, but I think the whole ditch management ... the water management opportunities concerning the river and ditch irrigation systems that we have throughout the Verde, I think there are some opportunities there. I'm not sure what they are just yet, but I think understanding water management practices and putting in new management practices that enable people to still support the burgeoning agricultural development here in the Verde Valley, I think also tie

in somewhere there. I'm not exactly sure how all those pieces fit in yet but I think there are probably some opportunities there too. And, it may be that there might be water filtration companies...you know, a water purification opportunities that we may be able to take advantage of. New technology. That's some of what we're interested in here in the sustainability park movement that we've got going. We're very interested in research and innovation and there may be some ways that we can improve water quality -- we know there are ways we can improve water quality here as it relates to the effluent coming out of our waste water treatment plant via the ground water and surface water in the Verde. So, I think we'll be uncovering more opportunities in that whole arena as well.

Q5. That's a good question. If I had a clear picture of how we were going to be promoting economic development via the Verde River, I could better answer that question. Right now, some of the water budget studies are key. I don't know how to answer that question, honestly. I wish I could give you a good answer because I sort of work backwards from where I'm trying to go and then figure out what I need to get there because I, right now, don't have a clear picture of what we are aiming for for economic development visa vi the Verde River. I don't know what I need to get there yet. So, for me, I need to clarify where we're trying to take this and then I could give you a more cogent answer to this. Right now, I don't have a good answer for that. Because [this task] crosses every jurisdictional boundary that we have, coming to consensus or even some sort of over-arching general direction is an enormous, daunting task and any one of us that would undertake to do such a thing right now, comes from our own vantage point and there is no group, save maybe the Waltons who are removed from here and looking at overall Colorado River Plateau health, there is not somebody with a vast enough understanding of the project and who wants to vet things at that level, yet, here. So even trying to define what that looks like is really a challenge.

Q6. Well, certainly the Walton Family Foundation has proven themselves to be that. My own mayor, I think, is critical because, as a water expert, and as he moves into more of his statesman role throughout the northern Arizona region, certainly, and has he is operating more on a statewide level, I think he is key. We need to engage our state agencies in this discussion, presuming that we have some of those left. We need to engage all three of our universities. We need to engage our non-profits that care about tiny little aspects of their communities in a much bigger dialogue and we need to engage all of the public staff people who are involved in all of these discussions. And this is a very unwieldy group so it's not going to be easy but I think we must have everybody at the table and once those people sort of get it, of course engaging all of the public and our businesses. Hopefully some of our businesses will already be engaged through that other group, but our businesses and the public at large. This is our Verde River so everyone who is here needs to engage somehow. And, of course, people engage based on their level of interest; their level of expertise; their ability and time. Young parents who are working two jobs to keep their houses afloat and keep their kids in soccer shoes and things like that, you know, we've got to find ways to engage our children and their parents and all those other sorts of things. But, we've got to find ...we've got to be creative in how we do that because these people don't have time to come sit through laborious meetings and thrash things through but we must engage these children because they will be making the future decisions for the benefit of all of us and they've got to understand now why they should engage. And I think as we are contemplating the Clarkdale Sustainability Park and its transitioning from its starting vision to its evolution over time, we're really understanding that sustainability in our town needs to be a way of life. I think the American public is slowly coming to that conclusion. We need to link the health of the Verde River to that growing understanding so that people have specific things we're asking them to do that are easy for them to do that enable them to be supportive of this project constantly, knowingly, but easily. I think we've got ways we can do that. We just have to think through all of that. And, knitting that project together is going to take really big

thinking people because very tiny narrow project focus is too small -- the thinking is to small to make this happen.

Q7. Well, I think people who don't understand the issues are the biggest barrier and they live everywhere. They are living on the Verde River and used to taking water out to turn their lawns green. They are people who throw oil from their cars, when they change the oil, onto the dirt in the back yard. They are businesses who operate here who release elements into the atmosphere or into the groundwater or they flush it down into the system...It's really people who don't understand how all of this connects. It goes back to all of that [science education]. So, I haven't ever met someone who, when faced with new information, really clings to an ignorant point of view that wants to do people harm. However, that said, the vast array of people we have in this community from all walks of life and from all educational backgrounds, need an approach that is as varied as they are to engage them productively. That is a huge obstacle by itself. It isn't really a person - one individual who is at the vanguard standing in the way of progress in this, it really is the vastness of the project and the need to craft a message to communicate to people in ways they can receive. That, I see, as the giant obstacle -- understanding the project, first off, and then being able to craft messages that people can receive. [considering nonprofit orgs and their unique missions and audiences] Right now, I believe, in the Verde Valley, there is a political tone to sustainability as well. I view sustainability as a fundamental need for our future survival in the Verde Valley so it transcends all politics in my mind. However, because individual nonprofits have a particularly political bent, either presumed or overt, here in the Verde, when they become the message bearers of these particular messages, I think some people can discount the message because of the messenger. So, the challenge, one of many challenges with our project here, becomes navigating that challenge. Raising the discussion beyond the world of politics to one of 'we all are in this together and we all sink or swim together.' We don't care whether you're a democrat or republican, libertarian, independent -- we don't care who you voted for in the last election. We just don't care. If you're in the Verde Valley and you love being here and you want a future here, then these are our expectations for how we are going to work together as a community -- the large community to take care of our precious resources. It isn't about catching you do something wrong; it's helping you do the right thing.

Q8. Certainly any of us public bodies. I would be interested, for one, because I want to make sure as we're building this Clarkdale Sustainability Park and whatever it evolves to, that: 1) we engage people; and 2) we address concerns that people have so to the extent that people identify obstacles that I have not even thought of, I would love access to this data because that will help me broaden my thinking from my own particular vantage point to understand what perhaps some other larger issues are to make sure that I address those and even reach out to those people with those concerns to get their help in addressing these issues moving forward. So, I'm thinking any public entity that is engaged in these kinds of topics would be people that should receive these results. In addition, I think economic development organizations, not only here in the Verde but the Sustainable Economic Development Initiative in northern Arizona, statewide organizations I think ought to receive this data too so that they can use it to inform their thinking, related organizations such as ADEQ and ADWR and those kind of those organizations so they can understand what our thinking is up here. Even the Department of Transportation would be good because they are doing statewide planning. They need to understand what our thinking is here in the Verde. So, I'm thinking, you know, as wide a net that can be cast, I think, is useful.

Q9. Well, one is, I think, try to craft what our vision is. We don't know what our vision is for what we want the Verde River to be in 10-20 years so I think we have some heavy-duty visioning that needs to happen first and foremost. Then, I think we should work through the various public sectors that have

jurisdiction over elements of the Verde River as it passes through their cities and towns because if we have a dream for an always free-flowing river, with access for the public and use by agriculture that is clean from which we've removed invasive species of fish and plants...I think many of us have this kind of dream state of what we would like the Verde River to look like, but we need to really coalesce that, I think, into something that is crisp and known and pervasive and then tell everybody about it and have us all buy into it. Present it to each of the cities and towns and pass resolutions of support for this kind of a vision for the Verde River. Engage people on the other side of the mountain where the headwaters are. Engage our Tribe that is here. Engage Salt River Materials so that they...all of us here, with uses of the river or who are adjacent to the river, or whose cities and towns the river flows through, know where we're aiming. [ownership and accountability] We can't hold people accountable because we don't know where we're trying to go. If we say we, in Clarkdale own the bit of the Verde River that goes through our town and it's our responsibility to get invasive species cleared along the river banks and to watch for, to make sure that we have diversity of bird and fish in and around the Verde River, then, as we are siting businesses that are adjacent to the Verde River or as we are working with businesses who are here in our town or that we're trying to attract to the town, we would probably do such things as ask, "So, what are the outputs, both product and waste, from your manufacturing process, for example, and how do you intend to use those? Are you going to reuse them in a secondary or a tertiary process? Are those things that you would like us to help us engage in disposal?" You know, it changes the dialogue as we approach these kinds of things. For now, we're in a transition place where I think if you just asked a business that doesn't know Arizona at all, "Why would you come to rural Arizona?" -- less rules and regulations, cheaper land, you know, cheaper taxes and all kinds of things, but not because "I want to engage in building sustainable communities." That's where we want to go. We do know they're out there and that's who we want and that where we want to get our businesses. But, right now we're not there yet and I think it's because we need this vision of where we're trying to go to start and then the data we need and who needs to be at the table...how we engage people and how we build programs around that all will make more sense, I think.

[concerns, excitment about study] Initially I had some concerns with how was this going to be approached. Now, as it's evolved, the approach is very pragmatic and logical, reasonable and make sense to me. So, my initial concerns when that had started have really abated since you guys have gotten underway. So, I think...If I was worried, I would still tell you. But I'm not worried right now, especially because one thing I hadn't anticipated was the volume of investment from the Walton Family Foundation to get everybody up to speed kind of at the same time - a point you made earlier. That's hugely impactful and I hadn't thought about that or I didn't even know that possibility existed and so seeing that and hearing the 'buzz' escalate, elevate with all of this investment, I think, I'm not really worried about now how all of that is going. What I don't know yet, is how this plethora of studies and investments will integrate and I know our mayor is working to try to make sure there is integration across all of these things, but there are no real requirements for all of us to work together. We have individually funded mandates and so while we're trying to be good neighbors to the citizens of the Verde Valley and that sort of thing, to work together, I think integrating all of this is going to be very challenging. It's not insurmountable but it's one of the things I wonder about - how will all of that exactly work and that's presuming we all get findings that dovetail. What if we get controversial findings that don't agree with one another? How do we manage that process and things like that. I think that will be interesting. Interviewee: Kathy DavisInterviewer: Jane WhitmireDate: 1-20-11

Q1. Two things come to mind right now. One is water use -- upstream water use and then water use that is happening in the cities along the route of the Verde River. So, what people are taking out of the water. And the second one would be water quality. And that would be perhaps like surface flow that goes back into the water through ditches or rainfall precipitation runoff. And then the third might be the types of uses that are allowed by the Verde River that might go into the water system such as grazing or agriculture or development where you get runoff from roads and pastures and croplands. I want to include invasive plant species which we have been working on and other folks have been working on and the damage that they can do to the river. We do have historic photos from the Tuzigoot area 1933-36 when they were excavating Tuzigoot. And that marsh area between the actual ponding marsh down to the river across from where Doug lives was all cultivated fields and there are very few trees along the river and only a couple of big ones. But now when you look down the river, there is a really good healthy riparian zone mostly native trees but a lot is non-native. [how are invasives avoided?] You pretty much have to select the species you're going to deal with. A lot of the woody species you can deal with. Russian Olive, Tamarisk, Tree of Heaven ...Tamarisk there is a trade-off with Southwest Willow Flycatcher habitat. But if you can transition that to native willows, if they are using the tamarisk, and do kind of transition planning. That's one thing but there's some species we will probably never get rid of such as bermuda grass and so you just learn to live with some and tackle the ones you can.

Q2. I think the biggest thing people need to know about the river that it's a finite resource...that it has flowed for ions but it could dry up and we see examples of that in the San Pedro with photos of where the river doesn't flow as surface water any more. So, I think that's the biggest thing is that it is a finite resource and that we need to be conservative on how much we use and think of the water quality.

Q3. Well, there's always been agriculture and that seems to be switching from grazing and crops, such as corn and alfalfa, I mean there's still some of that in the grazing, and these other new economic developments are the vineyards, for example, so there is a different way of looking at the agriculture. So, that would be one thing -- the changes in agriculture. The other one I'm seeing increasing use of using the water for recreational activities, especially boating. That's a really good one. Who is involved in these are people who are from, of course, the vicinity or Arizona who know about it, and others who are learning about it. I was just in the Chamber meeting today at Camp Verde and there is always interest in letting people know the recreational value of the Verde Valley. Camp Verde is a really good place to get on the river, especially if you want to go downstream. [Chamber discussions about river] The discussions are more of awareness of what's here and, of course, the side part is the economic benefit of that increased tourism. It's not so much of how we help them enjoy; but how we help them realize it's here and then how you can provide things. For example, the discussion today was a man who has a kayaking boat rental place out of Sedona and he really doesn't seem to need a storefront because he does a lot on the web with rentals. But he is thinking of relocating to Camp Verde or Cottonwood. So having that retail available in a place like Camp Verde is good and then that' where you can really put in some of those messages about water conservation, water quality, appreciation of the river, riparian values.

Q4. We talked about the water use so there is always the boating, the kayaking. There is also hiking that you can lace either walking to the river, around the river or use the river as part of the trail that you might use. There's national and state parks and Deadhorse has fishing. I think there is the esthetic value as well because today at the meeting a woman there who is with an insurance firm was talking about some people who bought a second house here. They just loved the beauty of the river and the trees and so that's sort of part of the development. Agriculture. And, then I think housing, of course, or

building houses like we went through the boom, people are attracted to living here so that just seems to increase the building cycle.

Q5. I'm on the Verde River Basin Partnership and we are working on an educational committee and one of the things that we're aiming to do is get a consistent message out there and get a sort of simple, straight-forward message as well as more complex information if we wanted to do scientific presentations. Coming from the park service experience, in the 1980s we were trying to get fire programs going. One of the things we learned is the phrase "adopt an interpreter"...have someone who could take the work that the fire people were doing and translate and interpret it to the general public that was visiting. If you look at that over time, now people realize that fire belongs in the wildland, but it's how you apply it as opposed to sort of trying to convince people that fire belongs. So, I see some parallels with that. I mean pick out really straight-forward, simple message and then carry those messages through and you can develop complexity depending on the audience. I think we just need to say the same thing. So that's where you can get places like the kayak business or other stores that might cater to that development. National parks and state parks, you could just keep saying the same thing to get that appreciation.

Q6. Oh, there are so many of them. The towns have Chambers of Commerce, there are the state parks, the federal parks, the museums, business people, educators...I'd just say everybody. Everyone has a piece of it. There are at least 17 water groups in the Verde Valley, at least the list I saw a couple of years ago. [when does their work culminate so there can be directed efforts?] You know I've thought about this a lot because of discussions and comments from people, but it seems as though every group has a little niche. It can be everything from SRP to the Verde Basin Partnership or VWA or whatever and you'd think it would really be great for them to have some overlap. Are there at least some groups that can collapse together? It's amazing that hasn't been resolved because I think that's really a good potential to get because a lot of them have the same interests and that's protecting the environment and the river and it's always just a little...maybe it's for development as opposed to environmental reasons. [Venn diagram with mission statements to determine overlaps] That would be a nice outcome out of what you're doing is if there's some way to put a couple of groups together because there are a lot of meetings and they talk about the same thing. You know, there are a lot of educated people because of these groups. The good side of it is that certain groups appeal to certain people and they get educated.

Q7. I think right now it's, I'm not trying to pick out people so much, but lack of understanding of the connection between the river and sustainability and people having, individuals who may not have a real understanding of hydrology and geology and the connection between surface water and ground water, including the state of Arizona. I think on an individual basis you could have a problem with individuals saying, "I'm not going to let you on my land to do something." So, I think the real way around that are finding some showplaces where you could do things with riparian restoration or ditch improvements or something like that and realize that it's going to be a long-term building process. People have to see what's in it for them. It could be maybe they have a pond in their yard that they really don't want someone to know about because it's not really a surface water pond. But, maybe there is a way to say, "Maybe you can do something with that pond that serves the overall good."

Q8. I'll go back to the one that says who are potential supporters. I see that something like this, having come from a Chamber meeting again today, is just all the businesses and it's interesting that the Verde Valley...when I've been going to these Chamber meetings for about 9 years, and there's always been this one topic that we keep talking about is branding the town. And, agri-tourism is the brand, in my view, and then you bring in all the cultural history and all the features that we have here. It's like Napa Valley,

what's going to bring you here. So, I just see a lot of use of that economic development study because certainly the towns could use it and they could use it for planning, businesses, attracting people, branding and tourism - trying to get people to come. Randy Pruitt is from the casino. He is also on the Chamber and so his business is drawing people in and marketing. So, there's a lot of it. I think the cure is to, not necessarily with this study, is not to over develop the Verde Valley and that talk, I think you were at that one the man did in Sedona, and it was with the scenic area...and he talked about Park City, Utah and I actually had been there a couple of years ago. They basically are surrounded by forest service land and it raises their house values and they want open space around them. So, open space is a big deal with this and it makes their land more valuable. They've actually even bought some private land to keep it -- the town bought it to keep it open and it doesn't lose its appeal. You know the realtors realize that if someone...the patterns seems to be that if people come in and live there for four or five years and for some reason move on, and those houses gain economic value every time because it's such a nice place to live and the open space. [children and affordability] That's not an issue. According to him, and I forgot...because Bob spent some time with him, that the town actually seemed to fully support it because it's jobs...it's a tourism town; it's a town...I don't know about rentals. He was talking not so much about the people who stay there but the people who tend to buy houses and move on, so there is a core group of people who tend to stay there a long time and the people who came in might have a second home and maybe something changes and they sell their house. The realtors were behind it because it's a really good marketing tool. For state parks and national parks, I think, too, that having the study is good.

Q9. The first thing would be to keep it flowing and to keep it a healthy river with a good riparian zone. Not over-developed either along the river or even the Verde Valley; maintaining open spaces. Educating the people who live here about where water comes from and that it is a finite resource. Then, putting all of that in some sort of format so that people can see the economic value of having a desirable place to live; a place where people want to visit and where it keeps its beauty and its appeal. [does Chamber track incoming dollars that tie to the river?] Not specifically tied to the river. They do track hotels and people staying and how long they stay. They can get the data base. [we don't know why they're here] We did a study and I just was looking at it today with the interpreters, it was 2005 and was out of ASU and I can email you a copy. It was from Dave White, a visitor use survey and what they found at the time, in 2005, was that people spent...Visitors to the park were either on their way to either north or south, Phoenix, Grand Canyon or Vegas, and they were just stopping in. If they did stay, they stayed in Sedona or Camp Verde and then Cottonwood and Jerome. If they stayed a couple of days, they were doing a circuit of where places they could visit. That really just tracked how much we were putting into the economy and it wasn't like Grand Canyon where people were coming to see Montezuma Castle, it was just one of things you see here on your way and Sedona was usually a bring draw and Jerome. Today at the meeting at the Chamber, they were saying the people have been to Sedona now they're saying, "Let's just find someplace else." They were finding some people who say, "Now, we've done Sedona for a couple of years..." And they are looking for other places to explore in the Verde Valley. That's one good thing that the Chambers have done. The Chambers of all of the towns have come together and they have joint meetings. The casino is marketing the Verde Valley regionally and the Chambers have really expanded and they talk a lot to each other so it seems, from what I saw when I first got here, they really are communicating better. They are realizing that the draw is the whole valley. They casino really markets that. [suggested interview from the Casino] Randy Pruitt, Marketer. He is the one who tries to package things to draw people in here and he's really very talented with it. He's good, high energy, puts together a lot of packages and they are a big supporter of the Pecan and Wine Festival. The wineries have a map. People, businesses who wanted to be part of that map would have a little fee and they'd get their business on it. They started to put a lot of the vineyards on it. He basically

is welcoming things to put on that map. It would be really hard to put a lot of businesses on it. It's kind of a wine tour map but you could expand it so it wasn't just full of big boxes with company names. Years ago when Ray Gugliotto was the Chamber chair, and I've not been able to track down this map, but he had one from southeast Arizona that included Wilcox. It was more that Cochise County area and it was the same thing where it was all the things you could do in that ...Chiracuhua, Stafford area. It was a little bit like this map but this one is a smaller area with bigger boxes. In our park newspaper when we designed it 8 years ago, our last page, or could be the center page now, it's a "where to next." And so we have Chambers of Commerce, all the historical societies, the Tribe, the forest service, state parks..we can't advertise businesses, and us so you can go to places for information.

General comments: I still think there needs to be the education of the people who live in the Verde Valley. There are a lot of folks through all of these various groups who have an understanding of the hydrogeology, vegetation...and those are the people I tend to bump into at these various meetings and there's probably 99% of the public out there who don't even get to the river. This weekend we had a volunteer day at Montezuma Well and there was a young woman there who lived at The Haven. She said, "I've never been to the Well." So, there are a lot of people who haven't been to the river and it's time to get our local people who don't have that understanding and awareness of the river to the river. Verde River Days is a great way. The Birding Festival is another one. Verde River Days is mainly local but the Birding Festival is a lot of outside. Those things bring in a lot of money and they get better and better. But, I think it's got to start at home and just some way to start talking and educating the public. Getting, like we talked about, permitting systems or getting them engaged in ditch management. We're on the Verde Ditch and when we got here and started calling about how do we monitor our 3.7 af, well you just turn it on. And I've gone to a couple of Verde Ditch meetings and I come away so frustrated. They don't even have an electronic data base and they don't mail about meetings and I think better ditch management is another one - honest, forthright ditch management -- communicative management. If they advertise a meeting, it's like two days before. It's a very old ditch company and it very much is a network of people who've been on the ditch a long time or developers. Even trying to get people into the board isn't very welcomed.

[concerns/excitement about study] I'm not concerned about it and I have to understand it a bit more and read about it and I think I don't really know all of the pieces of it or what it all will do. But, I think it's another effort to bring to light the education of the local people about the river and its value and getting rid of exotics and keeping the river flowing. It's another really good effort and if people can tie money to it, and jobs, that's a real good thing.

Doug interviewing Barbie Hart, her house in Cornville, Jan. 31, 2011, recording okay, doesn't need to be anonymous, doesn't need approval; retired from State Parks, now coordinator of the Verde Valley Birding and Nature Festival

Q 1: What do you think are the most significant factors influencing the health of the Verde River system?The issue with the headwaters and the possible endangerment of taking of the water out of Chino, reducing the flows. Farms and ranches along the river that might inadvertently be polluting with non-point discharge, just in the course of run off basically. It adds fertilizers, nitrates from animal wastes, septic systems that are too old may be leaking into it. Affects the quality of the water in the river.

Q2: Do you feel there are things about the Verde River that we need to understand better? If so, what are they?The whole hydrology. There's a lot out there being done and studied, but we can't know too much. What the effect of that pumping in the Chino. I don't know that we actually know what that might or might not do to the river. Until we know more, we can't make good decisions. We have to have that science behind us. I'm not familiar with studies being done in the Verde Valley. I'm sure that there is something being done, but we can use as many studies as we can.

Q 3: To your knowledge what, if any, economic development activities have recently been, or are currently being, conducted that directly relate to the Verde River? Who is involved in these activities? I don't know of any. Anytime you have any kind of development in the valley, you're going to have an impact on the river because you're going to be drawing from the water. Right here, I'm on a well so I'm part of the problem. I am drawing water from our aqua system. Any time there's any kind of development, a single family home like I have or a large development, they're going to be using water. There's a direct connection between using ground water and the water that's in the Verde River. I think hydrology would show that. The Verde Valley Birding and Nature Festival directly affects the river. Without the river, there wouldn't be a festival. There probably wouldn't be Cottonwood. There probably wouldn't be any communities here. That's why we're here. The first people who came and settled here wouldn't have settled here if there wasn't water. No one can settle where there isn't water. That is why we're here and why the festival is here, because of the riparian habit it creates and the habitat for the birds. Kayaking tours, Sedona Adventures for instance, is in place because of the river. They help people to recreate on the river and make people more aware of the importance of the river just by taking people and putting them on it. Wal-Mart and Home Depot are here because of the people in the community and the people in the community are here because of the river. They're a secondary economic development because of the river.

Q 4: What potential economic development opportunities exist which are associated with the Verde River system in the Verde Valley? I'd like to see ideas with using the river but not impacting the river, too much, but providing more recreational opportunities. I don't know what those might be, but I think they'd be welcome. Lot of the opportunities in hiking, biking, fishing, ecotourism are already being done. There used to be a canoe business before Richard Lynch came in with his business where he actually takes people. It used to be that you could just rent canoes somewhere. They're talking about doing that at Dead Horse Ranch State Park in that concessionaire. They might be renting canoes there that people can take down the river. Course you then need to be able to get people from their take out point back up to where they belong. So there's an opportunity there. There was a business that was in place at one time, but closed for some reasons. I have family in Phoenix who come up here to run the river in their canoes. There's a lot of opportunity to get people on the river. There's not too many free flowing rivers anymore. This is about the only place they can go, to come up here. There's an opportunity there. They typically put in and take out around Beasley or Black Bridge on the lower section. The upper section, I don't know. I think more of the locals use that. Because we need to let them know about it. We need to let the people in Phoenix know that it's here. I let my family know that you can take shorter runs by coming up here. We need to let them know that that's available and have good places for them to put in and take out. Somehow enhancing the accessibility is important. Places are very difficult getting in and out. Providing parking would enhance the accessibility and trails or paths down to the water so people aren't creating their own. Provide something that's safe both for the parties involved and the river itself.

Q 5: In your opinion, what information and facts are there that could be used to promote and advance the connection between the Verde River and potential sustainable economic development in the Verde Valley?I have mixed feelings about this because even though you want people to know about it, the more people who know about it and use it and appreciate it, the more backing you have for its protection and its care that's directly related. But then again, you can love something to death. There's going to be a fine line that we're going to have to walk in order to make sure that the use of it doesn't become excessive to the point where it starts to damage the resource. So yes, you can promote it, but I think you do advertising in Phoenix and let them know that the river is here and that we have access. The birding festival is going to be working on the Verde trail. You can almost do something like thatl, like we have the wine trail, we have the birding trail, hiking trails, we've got a wonderful resource. We do have a guide for the river that was produced by State Parks. How many people know about that guide? It's being printed and it's online and you have to search for it to find it. We need to somehow let people know that that's available. That's a good resource because it shows the whole reach of the river through Cottonwood and Camp Verde and where your access points are. We just need to let people know that that's available. In loving the river to death, you have your users that understand that and you have your users that don't understand it. Those are the ones you see throwing beer bottles in the river and things like that. How do you pick and choose your audiences. I don't think it's being done effectively now. I don't know and I'm not a market person who would know how to do that. Education, that's what I used to do for State Parks. That was my role. If you teach people, they usually get it. Maybe classes, maybe...I've been saying this for 20 years, I don't know if it will ever happen...maybe if we had some sort of, I don't want to call it a nature center, a center that people could go to get the proper information. Talking to Casey Rooney the other day, he would like to see a birding business go in at the old jail down in Old Town. I would like to see that too but I'd like to see it in conjunction with a whole, good spot to go to find out about canoeing or any other recreation, not just birding. I'd like to see it expanded to more. I'd like to see it supported somehow. A business would go in there and sell products and make money, I would just like to see it become an education facility. But that takes to do that.

Q 6 Who are important potential supporters in advancing the connection between a healthy Verde River and sustainable economic development?I think all of our park systems, the state parks, the national parks, tourists services, those who have properties along the river. They already are supporters. The tribe. They have a section along the river. Your general public. Without their support, you're not going to get very far. Your homeowners, landowners, all the landowners long the creek. Sponsors committed to the birding festival...Game and Fish is one I forgot to mention. They're a strong supporter. The forest service, of course. The national parks service are supporters. A lot of our river alliance groups are support groups for the river like the Verde River Citizens Alliance, organizations like that, the Verde NRCD. A lot of those are already public entities. We got vans this year from the car dealerships, the not for profits who have vans that are safe, the college gives us vans, the high schools that a lot of them do vans. We get support from the cities and the chambers. Rainbow Acres, Salt River Materials Group, they've been a great supporter for use. There's a commercial one. SRMG are great community supporters as a whole. A lot of the commercial ones do it just for the advertising, but the advertising isn't a big thing really for them because we're not their direct customers. I think they add the business actually who care about the environment. That's part of it.

Q 7: What or who do you see as current or potential barriers to advancing sustainable economic development in connection with a healthy river( for example, laws and regulations, property rights,

institutional like ditch companies, water companies, historic uses, etc.), changing cultural values? (If response is that “there are too many,” ask for top 3-5…interviewer’s discretion)All those things that you've listed there can be barriers or not, depending upon the personalities involved, I think. Our history, our water use laws, I don't know that much about them. I can't really make a comment on those. Ditch companies have a stake in the game. They're using that water for irrigation for most part. That's your farming and your agricultural. I see a great potential in the vineyards because I don't think they're a big water user. For an agricultural enterprise, they're not a big water user. The grapes actually like the fact that their stressed here and produce a specific product. There's a lot of agricultural ventures that take a lot of water. It can be argued that when you put it on a field, that it actually goes back into the group somewhat and that a lot of it is lost to evaporation as well. It's wise use that's important. It's not non-use, it's wise use.

Q 8: Who do you think might be interested in using the findings of this Verde River Economic Development Study, including the results of interviews such as this one?People who are making decisions. Our legislature, policymakers. They're probably number 1 and number 2 might be companies that are interested in developing in the area. When we've had opportunities in the past when businesses have looked at the valley to come here and have decided for one reason to not do it, I would like to know what those reasons were. I'm going to use a name, W.L. Gore for instance, was looking at property down here. They decided not to, I don't know why. Maybe it was because they didn't feel that they had the traffic for shipping. Right now they're in Flagstaff and they're right on 40. They're in Phoenix where they're right on major routes to get their products out. Maybe they though 17 was not that major a route. If that was the only reason then we can't do anything about. That's our location, but if it was because of it was hampered for some reason to come here, then what they thought is there are local reasons why they didn't come here. That would be a concern. We should know why clean companies like that. They would bring a lot of good jobs in. Why aren't they looking at the valley. Other big chains coming in, for instance, we have a Home Depot, but we don't have the Loew's. I've often wondered why. I think Sam's Club and Costco were both looking at the Verde Valley at one time, but they maybe decided that the market wasn't big enough yet. I don't know the reasons why, but I think we need to get industries in that are non-polluting types to help bring jobs to the community. Chambers of commerce would need to get these data. If water is an issue to some of the companies, I have a feeling that it isn't, but if it is, that directly goes back to the river and they of course need that information. Our Chambers of commerce need that. Any businesses that might be thinking about coming into the area for recreational purposes. Even your hotels and resorts. They're a big water user. Everyone is taking showers, swimming pools, and all that. We'd like to see the visitors come, but we have to understand that they make a big impact. We could all be more efficient. Ideas to make the Verde River be more of a focal point for regional economic development? I think the whole culture of the valley has to embrace it. It's not just something that small little groups. It's got to be "I live in Cottonwood. I'm the Verde River." I'm amazed at the number of people I meet in Cottonwood who have lived there maybe 20 years or most of their lives who've never been to Dead Horse Ranch State Park, never been down to the river. They cross it when they drive but that's about it. They have no clue about that river and its importance to them. The bridge on Mingus really separates people from the river experience.

Been in the Verde Valley since '91; interact with the Verde River a million different ways--has a canoe, the festival which connects me directly to the river.

Connection is way more than the average citizen unfortunately. I think my use is fairly minimal but I probably use it more than the average person.

What would you do with $5M to help the health of the Verde River?A greenway would happen. State parks is struggling and they had this wonderful project of creating the Verde River greenway which is not just along where Dead Horse is through Cottonwood, but all the way down to Beasley Flats. Could you imagine that? A big river front park the whole length of it? Wouldn't that be ideal. It would be recreational access, for the public. Talk about putting it in the public's face. It would be utopia. You'd have to unfortunately buy up all the private land. There wouldn't be anybody living along it. Which some people would not want to give up. If I had land along the river, I wouldn't want to give it up either. It's a gorgeous place to live. But for the overall health of the river itself, that would be...not that homeowners are poor stewards, most are very good stewards...but it's just that if you can pull that back away from the edges of the river and let the river be a river. (How far back?) That goes back to you studies of hydrology. Some areas were traditionally flood plains and maybe they should be returned to that. That takes that water and infuses it back into the ground water system. Certain places, the river probably should be wider than other places. Other places where it's maybe very rocky along the river wouldn't need to be very far, maybe 100 feet. Long, low lying areas might need to be pulled back maybe 1/4 of a mile. $5M wouldn't go far with land acquisition. You need the access along it, protecting it, but then in order to get the people to appreciate it, you have to have that recreational component. They need to understand and need to love it before they'll do anything to help protect something. Trails. Get trails in there, get access to it. You need to have safe and convenient access to the water itself. Places where they can get equipment that they need even if it's just fishing. No matter what it is that they're doing. You have to have it convenient for them. This is a barrier to people. Spend some money to enhance that access and access points. That's something that could be done without purchasing a lot of land, leaving pockets of private land. So long as you have a trail the whole length of it. If you're going to have a trail the length of it, you've got to have access along the whole length of it. It could be an easement. It doesn't have to be that we have to own that property. There's the other issue of taking property out of the equation that pays taxes. There's that issue, too. We don't want to really do that, do we. So an easement would be better. If you're up on a hill, you're not impacting that river too badly being a landowner. You are probably a good example of what a landowner should be along there. But I see other people throwing trash, and old cars. That's another issue to people enjoying it, is that there's a lot of old headwater dams and things like that along the river that doesn't make easy for people to go down. Diversion dams you can usually get around them. There's one section in between Cottonwood and Camp Verde that's like...you take your life in your hands when you're canoeing down that section. There's old metal and sharp things that you have to take your canoe over. that kind of stuff needs to be pulled out of their if possible. It makes that a tricking section. I've only done it once because I didn't enjoy it. It's beautiful country but it's like you had to be on your guard the whole time. It's a little bit dangerous to go through that one section. Of course, there's maintenance and upkeep, too. Just for the birding festival, the section that we take people down every year before the festival, because when the storms arrive, we have to go through their and cut fallen trees and snags out of the way to make clear passage. It's not just the money of acquiring property and accessing it, then there's that cost of maintenance.

How do state parks walk the line of funding?They're talking about privatizing parks. I don't understand how that would work at all. They're talking about having state parks still be responsible for the maintenance of the property without any income at all. That doesn't work. That's not going to work. The private concessionaires that are coming in are interested in the properties that make money anyway. What happens to all our historic sites then? Historic sites are very important to our culture, to wo we are, yet no private company wants them

because they don't make money. They lose money. None of the historic parks make money. Slide Rock, Dead Horse, make money. The ones that make money are the ones they're interested in running. That isn't the value of those properties. That isn't why we have state parks. It's for the people. to preserve their culture and their natural environment. Unfortunately, like everything else, there's a bottom line. (Do you know of a mechanism that would control the money?) So that the legislators can't take it? Basically that's what happens, no matter what the state parks do, if they can take the money. Tennessee state park system has partnerships with businesses. I'm not sure how it operates from the inside. But from the outside, what I've seen is golf courses, for instance. State parks have golf courses. They don't actually run the golf courses. I guess it's a concessionaire. It's a partnership, too, because they get the money and they seem to be in good shape financially because of that. Because they're connected with this private enterprise that's using their land, not that I'm a proponent of golf courses, but it's working. I would have to do more investigating. They've never had money problems. They didn't charge entrance fees for the parks over there. That's one of the reasons they could leave it open free to the public because they had enough money coming in from these other, from people going to pay to play golf. There are ways that you can bring money into the park system. Do we ! want to do that? Going back to the river and the greenway, the state parks can no longer put money into that program. You don't even have Max to oversee it. They used to have a limited number of people that could patrol it and make sure there's no fires being built, people dumping trash. I hate to tell people that it's not there anymore. We don't want to publicize that. There's no staff out there to do that anymore.

Any concerns about this study?Absolutely not. Information is what everybody needs in order to make decisions.

Anybody else we should interview?Max, the Cottonwood City Council, Barbara Predmore at Alcantara, talk to people who don't have the same thinking...people who say that the river isn't important

Interviewee: Bob RothrockInterviewer: Jane WhitmireDate: 3-12-11

Q1. I guess most of those things would be related to how many people are using the river system because I would imagine in a pristine environment without human impact that the health of the river would, rather naturally, be quite good. As far as significant factors, I think most of those would be related to how much water is in the river and how we're taking care of the riparian environment along the river.

Q2. Well since it's an area, here in the Verde Valley, where there are people living and using the river and upstream people planning to extract water from the river, I think we need to understand what the carrying capacity of the Verde River is exactly -- how much water can be used without significantly lowering the level of the river to where we begin to adversely impact the riparian habitat, the critters that live in and around the river and so forth. I think getting a better grip on the carrying capacity on the river is the most important issue we're facing as far as needing to understand things better. I'm encouraged by the Walton Family Foundation's funding of the first phase of the Title II Study the Verde River Basin Partnership is going to be undertaking. I think another thing we need to understand better is

how we can motivate the people who do live in the area and are part of the human impact on the Verde River to understand the fragile nature of the river and ramp up their desire to protect it. I think we need to understand that better. For years it's been approached from a 'taking care of the environment' perspective that we have to...that there's threatened and endangered species that live on the river. We have to take care of those -- and that hasn't resonated with enough people. And so I think we need to understand better ways to reach them. I'm encouraged by the study that's being done here that I'm being a part of that when you talk to people about their pocket book they tend to pay attention. [do people understand links between self and ecosystem services and wildlife impact on humans?] Yeah. A lot of people don't see us as being part of an inter-related web. We've been, well the western tradition is to carve it up and make it the way that you want it and make it suitable for your needs. That's all well and good when there are only a few hundred folks. When we get into the large numbers that we're seeing now in our country and worldwide, really, it has a detrimental effect that I think is going to bite us in the butt pretty quickly.

Q3. Well I would say that the City of Cottonwood's proposal to annex the miles of State Trust Land that we find north of Cottonwood and the potential of tens of thousands of people moving there, maybe not right away but in the not-too-distant future when we consider that the 'baby-boom' generation is turning 65. I think there will be a lot of folks who want their place in the sun and if we're going to actively market our area as a potential destination for that sort of thing that could have a huge impact on the Verde River. Economic development activities can relate to the river in a more positive way when centered on having people come and enjoy the scenic beauty of the area, enjoying the river environment, floating the river, hiking trails in the area and so forth. All of this can generate economic activity for our area that would not necessarily have a negative impact on the Verde River. In fact, it would be creating more advocates for the preservation of the river in that way. So, economic development is a sword that can cut in both directions.

Q4. I think some of the things that I just spoke to are definitely opportunities that exist. Yeah, there are opportunities to build more homes, of course, but there definitely are opportunities for people to do tours or rent equipment or otherwise facilitate peoples' coming and enjoying the natural beauty of our area. Another thing that I neglected to mention could very well be a return to small, organic or locally grown agriculture -- making use of the water that we're diverting into the ditches in a way that's very economically viable instead of growing bermuda grass or alfalfa for hobby horses. We could be feeding ourselves a lot more than we are already and probably having food grown for sale outside of the Verde Valley that would bring money -- a new source of income into the Verde Valley. I think that would be a real good economic development opportunity for people to make use of the Verde River system.

Q5. Well, I think it's obvious from my previous answers that there is a strong connection between the Verde River and sustainable economic development so what information and facts are there? The facts aren't all out there -- how much water can we extract and still have a sustainable flow -- that's not out there. But, we're presently diverting a lot of water into the ditches and into wells and thus far it doesn't appear that the base flow of the Verde has been compromised significantly. So, it would be a case of making better use of what we're already diverting to improve the economic activity that's associated with it. An example I gave before was growing vegetables instead of bermuda grass would be an example of that. As far as promoting it, this is I think is something that should be taken up by our Chambers of Commerce that become more valid promoting sustainable businesses -- promoting businesses that increase our region's economic sustainability as well as provide sources of jobs and income for the people who are living here. Unfortunately, jobs in service industries typically don't pay as well as jobs in the construction industries tend to. But, in a climate where many people are out of

work, there are a lot of folks, I think, who would jump at opportunities to have these jobs. In many ways they can be very satisfying because often clients are quite appreciative. For entrepreneurs, then that can, of course, evolve into a good steady income. The construction industry, as we've seen, is very cyclical. You can be making a whole lot of money one year and have nothing come in the next year.

Q6. Well, there are the choirs of people that we see at a lot of meetings of organizations that we're both associated with. I think the challenge is expanding that out to other people. Having people be able to...more people being able to understand the connection between a healthy river and a sustainable economy and how we all benefit from that. For example, just the other day I was forced to talk to a policeman. I was forced to talk to the policeman but the invitation to talk further was deferred. At any rate, he was aware of the danger of the upstream pumping and thanked me for the work that I'm doing to make sure we know what we're getting into there. I don't know how he became aware of that, though. Our conversation didn't go there. So, in a way, I think there are a lot of people who live in the Verde Valley who are possibly aware of the threats to the river, at least externally; of course our wells aren't affecting the river, as many would like to think. However, it's possible that they, like we're seeing at the national level, they're feeling that they don't have any control over the political process that allows these threats to continue. That, of course, concerns me. Back to the whom...I think important potential supporters are the business leaders in our communities. Most of the people who are council members, for example, in municipalities will say that they are supporters. They might not see the connection between some of the things that they are deciding to do and threats to the river because one is a macro view -- the river and its ecology and system and then, I know from having sat on the Cottonwood City Council that you can really get into a micro view of things and just in what's in your community and at this part of your community. [science] For example, the classic essay of the butterfly that dies in the rain forest and ... Many people pooh-pooh these endangered species. "We aren't going to build a dam on account of a little fish?" -- kind of an attitude and, hence, that kind of attitude...well, I think that's why we weren't making much headway with people with the 'critters approach' to saving the Verde River. People just don't see it as directly having an influence on their life. Back to who are important potential supporters...the business community again. Here again I think it points out the importance of getting the Chambers of Commerce to look at this from a regional point of view. [role of educational system] I think the educational system does a pretty good job of having kids become aware of the importance of water, the need to conserve it, on that level. As far as some instructors do focus on the Verde River. It's not, of course, part of our statewide curriculum and right now there is a huge push, of course, to have all of these kids knowing the state standards so they can do well in the state mandated tests and everything can be hunky-dory in that way for the school. But some instructors do a real fine job of presenting the river and the threats to it and its importance to us. Kids go on field trips and they do learn about water conservation. [capacity of retired teacher and active volunteer role in org activities] I have been asked to help at a couple of different water-related experiences for kids - one on-campus at Cottonwood Middle School where an instructor was doing an extensive water budget for the school and another one that was a large water field day type of experience at Deadhorse Ranch State Park. So, occasionally I am. So, I think the kids are getting a pretty fair dose of this stuff. But, it seems like once they become adults, at least for some, and are focused on raising a family and making money, maybe some of those things are pushed out or not looked upon as important at that point in time. We can always hope otherwise. As a teacher you always are doing a good job if you've reached some of the people some of the time. [introduction of linking water with career ops] That would be a strong component in building public awareness of that critical link, I think.

Q7. I think the biggest barrier is change and change is scary. For us to change from an extractive economy that's dependent on inducing more and more people to come and live here and building more

homes and infrastructure for them to something that's more sustainable, that represents a very big change in our area's economy. So for a lot of folks, change is threatening. In laws and regulations, there is the idea that, at present in Arizona that we cannot zone or limit development based on the availability of water resources is potentially the thing that will cripple us -- that will push us over the edge. It will kill the goose that laid the golden eggs because of the archaic law that seems to be set in stone. We can hope not -- that doesn't tie those things together. [desert state that doesn't insist on water availability documentation] Arizona's development history is denial of the desert. We divert the water; pump the water to deny that we really are in a desert and that's what we're all about. We want to have our green lawns and lake area in our back yard. [ground and surface water issues] Well, that's absurd on the face of it. Every hydrologist will tell you that there's a connection and we've shown that repeatedly in Arizona. We've pumped dry any number of riparian areas that used to exist in our state but we continue, legally, to deny that connection. And, I see that as a serious impediment to our sustainable -- our ability to live sustainably in the desert. When you ask people about these things -- when they're surveyed, nobody wants to see this happen. Nobody wants to see the Verde River pumped dry; the San Pedro will probably go first. Yet, again, I don't think people see how they can - what they can do as an individual citizen to turn the ship in a different direction. [does it take organized specific action time for window of opportunity?] I think people are spurred by crises. So, maybe it's when the San Pedro goes dry because that one will probably be next. I don't think we're going to beat them to it. Unfortunately, that would certainly be a tragedy that it would take something of that magnitude to get this legal barrier removed to moving in a more sustainable direction. But, short of a crisis, I'm not sure if enough people could be motivated. The connections with the groups such as the Cattle Growers' Association and the Homebuilders/Home growers association -- yeah, there's a lot of intersection if those two groups, too, and their power in the legislature is nothing short of remarkable compared to individual citizens' concern about seeing their local river dried up. So, I would say that those types of groups that very strongly financially support this type of status-quo economy that we've had in Arizona of depending on growth, are...I would see them as the biggest barriers, I would have to say.

Q8. I never thought much about that. I think the results should be trumpeted far and wide because I'm sure there is a strong - a lot of economic connections between the river and our economy here. Well, let's think of what would happen when the word hits the news media that Arizona has dried up another river. What's going to happen to -- if that Verde is the Verde River, what's going to happen to your property values here in the Verde Valley? People, when they're asked why they moved here, usually aren't talking too long before they start talking about the beauty of the natural environment and when the Cottonwoods along the river are dead and it would be a hard to conceive of tragedy and there would be serious economic consequences for the people who live here. It would be a hotter place.

Q9. I think I've touched on that throughout discussion here. I'm encouraged by the fact that we now have a regional economic organization as opposed to separate communities, Chambers of Commerce in the Verde Valley -- this larger regional economic development organization -- VVREO. I think they could probably be a catalyst to promoting the kinds of sustainable economic activities that we've been discussing. I think it will take time and a lot of promotion and, in a way, the recession that we're experiencing is playing into our hand here because it creates an opportunity for people to really start to think seriously about how am I going to make a living -- I don't want to move. And, if there is publicity and a buzz generated about the possibilities for sustainable economic development centered on our natural resources here and the beauty of our natural landscape, then, well, it's just going to get people thinking and that's the genius of our economic system -- people thinking; getting ideas and acting on them in an economic way. As more and more people decided, 'hey, I'm going to give this a shot', good things are going to happen like that. The Verde River Citizens' Alliance just picked up a couple of used,

inflatable kayaks from Richard Lynch who started that Sedona Adventures group. Well, the fact that he had boats that had been used by enough people to where he wanted to upgrade his fleet and get new ones and had some for sale, that's a real positive sign in my mind and it could let our group begin to let others use those boats and take them down the river so that they will know the river better and share it with their friends. In that way I'm encouraged. [VVREO] The initial success with the wine business has really boosted their visibility and shown off the potential of what an organization like this can do.

General comments: [potential interviewees] Well, the police officer I had contact with the other day. His name is Roger Scarim. Yeah, I think I would try to broaden it out as much as you can. I imagine you've thought of that, you know, rather than the choir that are members of environmental and river and other organizations. It has to be broadened out and I'm sure you're including elected officials as well as administrators in our local governments. Maybe some folks who are active in the unincorporated community groups of the Verde Valley. Deanna King in Cornville. She's been the head of the Cornville Community Association. I'm not sure who is heading up the Village of Oak Creek Community Association - Big Park, right now, nor do I know who is heading up the Montezuma Well, Rimrock, Beaver Creek area. Fred Schutze used to be active with that one. Dorothy O'Brien was active with Big Park and possibility you could interview them or people who are presently in positions of leadership. Those groups might be good ones. It would be good if you could find some people who are in the construction industry. My plumber, Mike Steward, lives in Cornville. He had ten guys working for him and a number of trucks. Now, it's him and one or two other guys and his truck. I think he could be fairly articulate. I can't predict what he'd say. You are interviewing people in the education community? Todd Jacobs is pretty articulate. He was my counterpart teaching social studies to the other half of the 8th graders that I didn't have. He's also a boater. (301-7103) He's my electrician too. My neighbor two doors down here had a construction business here. Now, he has to work in Phoenix. I think he stays down there. I'm not sure how articulate he would be, though. His name is Gene Stamper.

[focused dollars] I think anything that would increase public awareness is where money needs to be spent -- public relations. We need to get the citizen on the street to appreciate this -- what we have here. [videos of Steve Estes and Doug -- positioning throughout the communities] Yeah, the Tavern Grille has umpteen screens going. Why can't one ... you know, on each side there is a repeat and three or four screen showing the same thing. You know, why can't two of those be showing a succession ... You could embed a 'Save the River' in the patterns of the leaves, or something.

[concerns; excitement about study] I can't say there is anything that has a negative connotation. No, I'm glad it's being done and I hope, I hope ways can be found to trumpet the results far and wide because I think it will be very interesting information in terms of figuring out how to best conduct a, more or less, a campaign to move in the sustainable economic direction once we know what people think is there now.

Interviewee: Gayle MaberyInterviewer: Jane WhitmireDate: 1-24-11

Q1. That will influence or are currently influencing? Well, groundwater withdrawal is certainly influencing it and I think that there's a general lack of understanding in the public about what those influencing factors are. And so, with that lack, of understand, well, that's part of what you're doing in this study is bringing that about, we're hoping that we have impacts like groundwater and irrigation

withdrawals maybe to a lesser degree, to certainly a lesser degree than groundwater withdrawals, that, I think, just public education, awareness and acceptance by the public will start to make a difference in the future.

Q2. Well, I think there is a lot of data that we don't...I think we're gaining a better understanding about groundwater withdrawals, not only...I think the major focus has been in areas outside the Verde Valley and, although people are at varying degrees of acceptance of that data in the areas outside, there hasn't been that much of a recognition in the Verde Valley about the impact that we're having here with groundwater withdrawals so I think that will be very valuable to kind of shine the light on that issue and make that as big a piece of awareness of people here as pumping in the Big Chino. I think it's a lot easier for people to have a villain and it's easy to make that villain Prescott and Prescott and Big Chino area when, probably long term, we've got, well we do, have more of an ability to impact the flows than they do through groundwater pumping and demands in this area. The base flow that they have the ability to impact is less than the total base flow percentages that we have the ability to impact. I think it's 20% that they can impact on that end; but we certainly have the majority of the rest of it.

Q3. Economic development activities...not studies or just projects? I don't know about what relate directly. I think, indirectly, anything that happens in the Verde Valley relates to the Verde River. But, to say there is either a recognized direct tie or an unrecognized direct tie... One of the things that I've spent the last few days on was trying to get some more definitive information just for my own mind about water use and viticulture because of the growing interest in Yavapai College and the region. When you attend meetings on those things you constantly hear 'grapes are a low water use crop.' Well, how much water? Very low water use. Well, that doesn't tell me what I need to know. How does it compare to other uses so that in the long run if we decide this is the way we're going in the Verde Valley, do we really know what kind of water usage we're committing to. [measurement of it] It's impacted by many, many, many factors but you can get down to some kind of averages. And, that's what I needed; I just needed to wrap my mind around to what we're really talking about here. So, that's been an interesting...To me, that's been a question in my mind. We're talking about an area that has not been an agricultural area. There are certainly agricultural uses in the Verde Valley, but we're not known as an agricultural center. So, if we start converting a whole bunch of property into vineyards, then what is the overall impact of that? So, I guess that's an economic development activity that potentially impacts the river because all of our sources of water are groundwater at this point.

Q4. So, thing, I'm assuming tourism-related activity. The train probably falls under that first question -- #3. I'd bet they would link their success pretty closely to the ...it wouldn't be quite the nice trip if there's no river in the canyon. So, I think if you're associating it directly with the Verde River there are a lot of tourism opportunities that are really untapped at this point. We have Deadhorse and some public access to the river, but I think there is a lot of opportunity there that isn't tapped at this point that is tourism related. [access] I think access is a key issue on the river. I think that access brings awareness. When people...and there are plenty of people in the Verde Valley that never dip a toe in the Verde River; never get close to it; and it's easy not to appreciate what we have when you don't have that opportunity. So, having public access, I think, is really important. [asked to suggest other interviewees who haven't experienced the river in this way]

Q5. I think that there are some things happening that certainly could be expanded that would help in that area. I think we've got a great example in the Birding and Nature Festival that, whether it's that event that's expanded on or expanding that concept to other events, Verde River Days, the same thing at Deadhorse Ranch State Park. Those are obviously all focused right there at the river so it goes hand-

in-hand with my access issue. So, I think those types of activities and, I would say, we have Project WET in the schools that focuses on the river. It's easy to say 'you need to be in the schools more' when the schools are stretched to the maximum but a lot of it starts with kids and that appreciation starts with the kids that are here. So, I think that those kind of events, expanding on the existing and then branching out into some new events that have that kind of a target, are good, solid ways to do that.

Q6. I think, in order to be successful, you have to have the business communities involved in it. I think if it's just local governments and river groups, it's not going to get there. We need to have a much broader base than having those business communities and business interests involved in some of it, I think, is key for the average citizen across the Verde Valley. [How would they be involved?] I think it has to start with an education process with them. They're no different than any other citizen and we talked a little bit about the challenges of recognition for citizens and there are a lot of long term businesses here or even shorter term that just aren't keyed into that. So, providing some kind of an education process to raise that awareness, I think is the first step in getting them on board. [What would that look like?] I have thoughts that it would be a long term project with no funding available. But, I think you can have...getting them there is going to be the key. I think it's as basic as going to Rotary and Kiwanis and then having forums through the Chambers, you know existing venues like that, and then maybe identifying either small groups or, if you're going to have a forum and target and getting them to come, I think, is the key thing. If you can take advantage of opportunities that are already there and built-in systems with Chambers and some of those service clubs, it might be easier. But, I think you have to go to them and share the information.

Q7. Well, I think you have a harder time with the, I hate to say this because I'm in the category, but the people who have lived here the longest are the ones that you have a harder time with, frankly. I think they are used to living a certain way; they're used to having a certain set of facts in their minds that they consider to be facts, regardless of what data show today; and some of those people are involved with ditch companies. You know, there has been a way of doing business for a long time in certain of those venues and it's difficult to make those changes. So, when I think about for Clarkdale -- the water company acquisition was a great example of that. We have a certain segment, and it's growing smaller and smaller, but a certain segment of the community that's been here forever and it was a company town and the company provided the water. Then, you know, we had the cheapest water in Arizona for 20 years and coming in and raising rates and putting in water use restrictions was a very difficult thing to do and I think that applied across the Verde is the same principle. When you start talking about raising that level of awareness. So, but again, I think it's getting out...you've got a segment of the Verde Valley who thinks there is no water problem here. There's a big lake underneath the Verde Valley and we're not ever going to have a problem. I think it's a smaller number than it may have been 10 years ago -- I certainly hope so. But there's still people out there who just won't hear it -- just will not open their minds to that. That's true with any issue. It's probably not going to change with some of those people. So, I think that's just recognizing that -- not that those people won't ever change, but I think they are a different set of people - those long time -- that may be engrained in trying to bring out the truth and do that in a way that brings them a long too, I think is important. [role of science] I do. The frustrating thing about science playing a role is it takes an awful long time and an awful lot of money. And, there is, in every study that you put forward, someone's going to come forward with their own study to try to negate it if they think that is what benefits them. We haven't seen as much of that over here but we certainly see that playing out in Prescott and Prescott Valley. One of the reasons it plays out there is because there are legal implications at stake for them; they have their backs against the wall in the AMA and we don't have an AMA so the stakes haven't gone up so high in the Verde Valley as to bring the kind of dollar resources in here to start refuting the facts but they'll come. When the stakes are high enough,

they'll start doing that here too. So, you know, the facts of the Verde River part of the system I think aren't, well, they're not completely documented although most people that are working in that area have a pretty good sense for what they're showing. But still, aren't out there in the public where you can distinctly say, "this is the science we’re working from." So, that's the drawback. I like facts; I like truths. But the length of time it takes to get there; and the funding available -- that's the problem with it. People get impatient with it. They say, "All they do is talk and talk and talk. How long have we had these water committees." That's a problem.

Q8. Well, I think there are a lot of uses for it. I think that potential businesses coming into the community would use it. I think the various economic development organizations in the Verde Valley certainly would use it. Cities and towns, I would hope would use it as well. [What kind of format should be used to make information accessible?] Having not read through this...it needs to be online, obviously. And, it needs to be accessible online in some kind of perpetual format because that's really, I think, that's going to be accessed the most.

Q9. Well, I think it goes back to my thought that access has to be a key to that. I think people have to have that kind of physical connection and without places to access the river they just don't get that. I think if you talk to an average citizen about economic development and the Verde River, it's not a natural link in peoples' minds and that's what the question is about. What can we do more to link that? But, if you have someone, either a resident or a tourist that's in town doing some kind of business, I don't know if they see the direct link there. Part of it is messaging, for all of us. Part of it is just making it a bigger part of what we talk about as the Verde Valley. There are some people that do that but we certainly don't do that to the extent it could be and that may be a very simple cost effective way to get that word out is to start making those links in what we do and what we talk about. [those who don't think about river -- interviews?] I can't think of anyone off the top of my head but I’ll think about it and then I can email you.

[focused dollars] Public education. I think that's, well, that and money to back up scientific studies. I think you have to have the science. I think that's key. It's not key for everyone. Some people will just intuitively get it but I think that's key for a good segment of people. So, you've got to have the science behind it and you've got to have a big component of education.

[concerns about study] No. In all honesty, I haven't read the background. I know the VREDS study is looking at economic development and the Verde River. Beyond that, I haven't gotten into the details of what, exactly, you all are doing. But Doug would probably be just mortified that that's the case but, you know. I know that it's happening but I don't know all the background to it. Honestly, I don't have a good appreciation between the distinction between this study and the study The Nature Conservancy is doing on economic development and the Verde River so I don't have a clear distinction there. I don't have concerns about it because I think we're going down the right path. I think we have to be able to demonstrate that. It's another one of those key links and when we're not used to talking about that in those terms, but that makes a difference to the business community and to individual citizens to think about it in those terms. So, I wouldn't say I have any concerns. It is exciting to know that it's a different model that we're looking at here -- a different set of data. That's important and will speak to a different segment of the population than most of the Verde River studies and groups have aimed at before.

Doug interview with Dan Mabery, February 11, 2011, Main Street Cafe

danmcwbanker.com 928-634-9536 okay to record, doesn't wish to be anonymous, would like to approve

Q 1: What do you think are the most significant factors influencing the health of the Verde River system?The defining...where the water's coming from. That's the biggest single one...whether it's the Big Chino or the drainage areas off of Mingus. If you don't know what the water source is, how can you do any work towards continuing the flow of water? If it is the Big Chino, and the Big Chino is being drained by Prescott, is that an issue? Obviously. If it is wells in the Verde Valley, how do we work with that? How do we balance the rights of well owners and surface water rights owners with the needs of the river? De-watering as one of the threats. Positive influences these days? People are more aware of some of these things. There have been changes over the last 3-4 years as people become greener, that also influences the way that they believe, think about the river and the value of the river. The value of the river is in the health of the river.

Q2: Do you feel there are things about the Verde River that we need to understand better? If so, what are they?Hydrology as mentioned. The hydrology of the source and the hydrology as to the irrigation and the use of the wells and all these studies that are being done. Hopefully, we'll find an agreement among all the studies. Apparently, all the studies don't agree, from what I understand. I don't know how you're ever going to find the sustainability of the health of the river without knowing the sources and everything that effects it, including irrigation as it leaves the river at one point and goes back into the river at another. Does that ground water come back? What condition is the water in? And so forth. Technological stuff.

Q 3: To your knowledge what, if any, economic development activities have recently been, or are currently being, conducted that directly relate to the Verde River? Who is involved in these activities? >From a commercial standpoint, tourism standpoint, there isn't as much as you might think because the river is basically sealed off by private property and there's very little access to it. So outside of the State Park and outside of the cities, the access to it is pretty limited. From that standpoint, from a pure commercial standpoint, there isn't as much as you might think. River tours are minimal. Agriculture, but even that is not commercial basis. It's more a hobby basis. You have very little and Andy and I agree on a lot of things.

Q 4: What potential economic development opportunities exist which are associated with the Verde River system in the Verde Valley? Related question: What potential economic development opportunities exist which aren't being exploited today that could tie a healthy Verde River and good economic development in the Verde Valley?I think the State Park got a good start on it. From that stand point, the wineries, the growing of grapes is a great start because they don't need that much water. In some people's eyes, the proximity to the river is a detriment. From a freezing standpoint. You can grow grapes about anywhere and the river has very little to do with it. You don't need a lot of water. That's the biggest single economic development that's going on right now. Again that's from a tourism and travel standpoint.

Related question: If somebody said to you, I'd like you to create a business that's got to have a nexus to the Verde River, what would you think about doing?

I'd build a state park...a park. I would take the state park and give it the money it needs to operate and create a much larger thing than they have there now. I think they've done a wonderful job with it, all issues aside. They really have. They've secured 600 acres or so and helped protect by buying up and down the river to limit the amount of development so close to the river as best they could. Improving the state park will bring some money into the Verde Valley in the form of tourism.

Q 5: In your opinion, what information and facts are there that could be used to promote and advance the connection between the Verde River and potential sustainable economic development in the Verde Valley? Parks would be able to provide information as far as the usage of their canoe program, the usage of the ponds, the fishing, and all that which is very popular. Plus the RV park. Of course you get into a competition with the privately owned ones. State parks will have more private enterprise, concession...that's where it's going. That's dictated by the budget and I think that's a dandy idea. I think they do a pretty good job there. They've got it all funded by us so they don't have to make the dollar. (With private concessions) it could be self-sustained and they would have to do a better job. Government can't do that. (4 state parks in a state system of 40 make money right now). (Attracting a concessionaire to handle state parks is difficult.) I believe that's a misperception. I believe that part of that is that they generate cash, but they do not have to figure in the capitalization of the property. If you're talking about M&O type...a private enterprise is going to have to figure out...to buy the land, it's going to cost me this much...(parks would retain ownership and relieve them of that capital expense). Then it would make sense, but at some point in the big picture, if you're private enterprise going to start competition or something like that, that's a major consideration and one they don't have.

Q 6 Who are important potential supporters in advancing the connection between a healthy Verde River and sustainable economic development? not presented

Q 7: What or who do you see as current or potential barriers to advancing sustainable economic development in connection with a healthy river( for example, laws and regulations, property rights, institutional like ditch companies, water companies, historic uses, etc.), changing cultural values? (If response is that “there are too many,” ask for top 3-5…interviewer’s discretion)The definition of certain water rights. It's a huge roadblock type thing. Probably won't be resolved in our lifetime, but assuming it is, it's just has to make its way through the court so everybody knows where they stand. Adjudication process needs to be completed. When you talk about commercial enterprises along the river or that are tied to the river someway, most of those will need probably surface water rights, like the ponds. They need their surface water rights. They'll need access to the river. They'll need a healthy river. You've got to have a healthy river. If the adjudication is not, if we continue to build, course right not it's going to be there because no body's building. That's going to change. If we continue to add wells and if the all the technological tests continue to show that the wells up on the top of Mingus are affecting the flow down here and that continues, 1. we're not going to have a healthy river and 2. without knowing those facts about what affects what, the people down below don't know how valuable that will create value, dollar value, in those water rights. And once that is created, those can either be transferred, sold. I'm speaking about ourselves. We have that issue right now. We have water rights that we're not fully using. The Mabery family. The ranch. Yet, we're very cognizant of doing whatever is necessary to preserve those rights. We don't even know what those rights are really because nobody's defined how you can separate surface and ground water yet. So it's

important. Frankly, those water rights are more important to the municipalities than the private land owners. It just happens to be valuable. I don't know of anyone that doesn't want a healthy Verde River, but everyone's going to have a different view that holds true. Again that comes into the surveys and the testing and the studies. You see it all the time..."they'll never take my well away". Oh, really we'll see. It depends on what the water rights are. What the Indians and SRP ! say and all the people that are involved. So government just by virtue of being government, they're lack of efficiency is probably not going to help process along. Government efficiency in respect to the adjudication process. I think that there is...the efforts to define are so scattered and the results have been so diverse that there's nobody that...yes, we have attorneys and my brother's involved in it...nobody who is directing the rodeo here to the point that it's really going to point this in the direction of a conclusion because every time something happens, there's a law suit to stop the process. It's just that the judicial process is so agonizing and so expensive. (What parts of our knowledge about the Verde River system are controversial?) Again, the rights is the biggest single thing that is controversial. How much the wells impact the Verde River and vice versa is controversial. There are people who benefit from one side or the other. You always have people on both sides and really there are not studies that definitively address that. They address it but they don't draw the same conclusions from study to study. I don't know how to correct that. (Say you have the USGS conduct studies that say definitively if you drill a well at point X, will it have an impact on the Verde River) That study would still be controversial. That's part of the problem. You're balancing not just your right but the feasibility of reasonableness of having say a well say at my house which everything flows downhill. Does it have an effect? Maybe. And do I still have the right to have water up here? And if I don't have city service, do I have the right to drill a well? And how much does it affect it? If you do enough of that, does that dry up the river? Controversy there, even bigger than it is now, because as it is now, we can argue it ???. So I don't know that, you don't know that. You have to have a number of studies that agree and if assuming you get that, so the question is, so that once you get it, what do you do with it in terms of getting a consensus as to how to keep the river healthy. You would think that USGS are the most unconnected and probably would give the best unbiased view. You would think. Again it may be that they have to do it and somebody has to prove them wrong. Now you're talking about the procedure of getting to that agreement. That procedure as we've observed is long, longer than the river may have. You must have some kind of general agreement from the powers that be that's maybe the state, county, and city governments that there's an effect. We just don't know how big an effect it is. So can be mitigate that hence without destroying the rights of people who live on those properties. That's over my head. (It defines the WAC) It's often speaking Greek to them. WAC has the same issues we have from a personal standpoint. There may be, this takes more study, little things. We concentrate on the well usage. I have no idea what that effect is, but I know we have lots of them. We don't really know if you stopped all those wells, how it would truly affect the river. Say it raised the river a foot. How long would it take for that to happen? And all these other things that influence. We just don't know. We could maybe transfer, encourage people in the sharing of the well, but you still use the same amount of water. But you might be like municipalities where you're sharing the well. The well at my house is the same as city water. We're still using the water. So it really doesn't matter. We're talking about a recycling. If you have the people, you've got to have the water. It doesn't matter if it's your well, or my well, or the city water, we still use the same amount of water.

Q 8: Who do you think might be interested in using the findings of this Verde River Economic Development Study, including the results of interviews such as this one?

Obviously, the stakeholders, people who believe they have water rights. Talking about all those who have surface and ground water rights. If I have a well on the hill somewhere, that's a water right that could be in jeopardy. The surface water rights people have a bigger threat because that's more immediate. It's being monitored by SRP and I don't know who all. They're monitoring it and we know it. They're testing wells. They're looking at doing flyovers and all this kind of stuff, so those surface water rights are more in jeopardy that say our private well rights in the immediate future. Any city planner is also interested, I would think. Any governmental entity that is involved in the planning for the future of the towns.

Live in Verde Valley for 50 years

Interacts with river...owns some rights to it; it is a small part of a business that we own, both surface rights, a well standpoint, and from the actual river flowing through our property (Blazin' M), part of the Blazin' M experience is the river though nobody actually goes to the water itself because of liability

How do you handle more access with the liability? Insurance, depends on the type of business you have; the park wants you in the water...it's part of the experience and expectations; trees go away with water, ambience is destroyed if the trees go away. Would the Blazin' M be successful without the river? We've done a little analysis about moving it, and yes, it could be moved, but being there is better. We have a relationship with the train and the train really depends on the river.

If you had $5-10M, to spend on behalf of the Verde River:Clearing it out, it's clogged. We're going to see a major flood at some point, causing some major damage. The river needs to be unclogged. It will be expensive. Cut down trees and clear them out. We've gone so long without a major flood, that everything's going to back up. I would identify the people that don't really need the use of the river in terms of irrigation. The health of the river, I pull my water out, be able to identify how much actually makes it back to the flow of the river once it's spread out on the ground, find out how much loss is there. There's people that aren't necessarily going to be on the ditch companies, but isolated pieces that maybe don't really need those. I have the rights to sever and transfer to somebody down the stream who would have a worthy use. Rights are probably not worth what everybody would hope. You don't know what you've got. What value is irrigation on property values by the river. It's so hard to define. I would say that at one point it doubled the value. A one acre lot irrigated versus a one acre lot not irrigated. The irrigated lot could be double the value of the non-irrigated lot. I don't think that it's more than 10-20% now, I have nothing to back it up. It's really gone downhill. The shift is from the overall market. Part because there may be a shift in the way people think about where they want to live and their lifestyle. Our age is different than the people coming up. They're lifestyle is different and that may not be a priority. Their lifestyle is that I want a little smaller house, I need to be able to walk to shopping, and then I want to go and do. I don't want to be tied to a house. If you've got irrigation, you're tied to that house. There's a whole cultural shift as to the value of the river, as far as their real estate is concerned.

Anything that concerns you about this study?You have a wonderful handle on it.

Who should we be interviewing? Andy Groseta, City managers, some wine people like Barbara, Eric; brother

A test down at the ranch showed that when the river went down the well went down. We had gone through the alluvium, or thought we did, 250 deep.

Interviewee: John NevilleInterviewer: Jane WhitmireDate: 1-19-11

Q1. Population. That's the primary factor -- population, the lack of planning and a lack of a broad perspective underlying any planning that's being done so that...oh, and also the basic philosophy that property rights, a cultural thing in the State of Arizona, a property rights state, and I think that in another culture we might not have that issue because we wouldn't view the water that supplies the Verde River as a property right. It would be regarded as a critically important natural resource that we need to conserve. And then, even if we had population growth and some lack of planning, we would still be very careful of the river.

Q2. Where the water comes from is the most important thing and that water in the desert is a 'sometimes' thing and even though we see, I know from our side, the Oak Creek Canyon side of the Verde River, we have, in the pipeline many hundreds of years worth of water on its way to us. So we're in relatively good shape in our life time unless somebody drills in upstream and starts to take that water. On the other side of the river, we need to understand that that is a fragile aquifer that can be easily drained. So we really need to understand where the water comes from first and how it's replenished. And then we also need to understand what our common everyday impacts are on the water because we live in a hydrological cycle on earth so all the water that ever was and all the water that ever will be is here now, but we're polluting it as far as we possibly can. So, that's going to kill us off too. So, those are the things we need to understand. The other thing I would say is, and this is structural -- this has to do with everything, including the Verde River, is we have to understand from what we term an economic perspective the value of the Verde River and that, again, but we need to redefine economy. It's just not about you giving me some money. So, if we understand the value of the Verde River, the wildlife along the Verde River, the flora along the river, the impact of the river, as I was saying to someone yesterday -- I was talking to somebody about the Verde River, a tourism person, no actually it was this morning, I was saying without the Verde River and Oak Creek all this we are looking at right now wouldn't even be here. So, you need to understand that.

Q3. Well, everybody knows about Prescott and the land purchase and the purchase of the water rights for what that means and the possibility of them draining the upper Verde as part of supporting development in Prescott. So, that's the big one. [refers to the sale of agricultural water rights] The sustainability park is a potential development that can have an impact on the Verde River -- if it's done correctly, a very positive impact on the Verde River as model for how to, for human being to exist in relative harmony with natural systems. That Freeport-MacMoran site there, hopefully that will be developed -- there's something going to happen there and, right now I have a feeling that its very existence is having a negative impact on the Verde River. If we develop it correctly, we can correct that impact in a positive way. [related to tailings and emissions from them] Development has slowed down because of the economic downturn so I think we're going to see -- I'm noticing as our economic development starts to pick up again, the cost of gasoline is going right up with it and so that will have a restraining impact on how much development we're going to have. From the positive point of view, what VVREO is attempting to do and the Verde Valley Wine Consortium is attempting to do and then SEDI up here on the other side -- the Coconino County side, they are looking at development in a

positive way that would intrinsically preserve the water resources, including the Verde River watershed. So, those are the positive things, including things along the line of developing renewable resources. We look at concentrated solar power and it came up before SEDI that our input to the powers that be about any kind of new energy development is that it be non-impactful on our water resources and it has the potential of being very negatively impactful. Well, if we define economy correctly and it has the same root as ecology, it means habitat, where you live and management of where you live. And that's what an economy is so how do we best manage where we live? Right at the moment we have redefined economy to mean the flow of goods and services and then how do we track that. Well, to what purpose, exactly. Well, we've defined that to be for the financial benefit of people who have capital involvement in the flow of goods and services. Well, how does that help us manage where we live? Right at the moment it doesn't. So, once we define it on management of where we live, then we start looking at best practices in a completely different way and we define our metrics in a completely different way.

Q4. I kind of covered that a bit. The VVREO, what VVREO is doing, the wine consortium is great because of the low impact use of it. It takes property that's not really very useful for other things, except sticking houses on it, and keeps the viewsheds while not really negatively impacting the water flow. And even if we put all the available land under cultivation for grapes, we would not begin to negatively impact our water resources there. We just have to figure out how to harmonize it with the birds, because if it's a wonderful habitat along the Verde River for birds, they like grapes. So, that will be an interesting issue. But that's one good one. If we keep going with some of the things we're working on, there's the multiplier effect and there's also the integration effect that happens with a core product or service for a region. And if we build our area, our Verde Valley, around several things; 1) our ecology, this wonderful, special place that people like to come and visit; and 2) we build it around a wine region which is a natural growth - you get to taste, not only see, smell, hear this wonderful, but now you get to taste it and you get to take it home with you; and 3) the art which is also a reflection of the wonderful area. We get the art, and we get a fair number of musicians here that we're growing too, so we have that artist community that we grow and we build those things together and integrate them and then do what some other towns have done and brand the community around those things so that when you go into a little shopping market, there's the wine. The art work on the postcards is there and the signage is such -- everything is tied together -- we've packaged the region. Then, we're going to see a lot of good economic development that isn't going to spoil it. It's going to preserve it and protect it and enhance it in better ways than we've ever done before. We're not going to look at, "Well, here's a hundred acres over here the best use of that is to put some houses on it.' We're going to look at it completely differently because that hundred acres is important to our brand. I really do like the concept of clustered development things. I worked on a project with an equestrian residential community. 275 acres, 50 acres of which was developed. The rest of it was left with forests and areas where equestrians to use and it kept it all natural. And so, when you bought into that place, you didn't just get your half acre, you got 275 acres. It's a wonderful concept. We don't think that way. What we think of is, 'I want my two acres of land or my 5 acres.' When I built my house I found a little piece of property that some people couldn't build on because there was an arroyo running through the middle of it. And I thought, well, look at this. I can build on this. And it was in place, just sitting there and then I grew my house out of the middle of it. I cut down two of maybe 35 trees on the property and put the house in there and just kind of...but what I have that's in my front yard, I've got the broken arrow portion of the national forest; my backyard I've got the Munds and the Marks Draw (?) Wilderness Area. I've got that and that came with my little 1/2 acre.

Q5. Well, in terms of facts, the only facts I know about are related to geological facts and hydrological facts, USGS studies and things like that that show a connection between life and the flow of the water and that sort of thing. Then, we've got Audubon and Nature Conservancy who have been tracking two things - 1) the birds and the life along the Verde River and 2) people who come to the Verde River to engage with that. I don't know if we have any other really strong facts. When I've talked to the hospitality industry, there's no connection between number of beds filled and the Verde River. We don't know. They could be on their way to the Grand Canyon. We don't know why they're...exactly what the connections are. We need to have data. We do know that there's some economic data collected on the wine industry and that has a connection with the Verde River because it created this environment where we can have an industry of this nature and then they've been able to extrapolate some ... these aren't facts, these are projections on the impact, positive impact, on this type of more sustainable, or less unsustainable industry along a natural resource. I don't know what facts we have. I'm hoping we can get some. For instance, when I talk to people about economic development, and I usually like to talk about growing businesses rather than attracting businesses, but when I do talk to them about attracting businesses I say, 'alright, yes, it's nice to have a good tax structure and it's nice not to have lots of rules that interfere with economic development, however the data shows that states with the highest tax rates and the tightest rules have the best economies. Now, why? That is because the quality of life in those states are better. The schools are better; the healthcare is better; and businesses want to live in a better place. And, if it's like Arizona, which is this oddball pendulum swinging back and forth, there is no guarantees at all. You don't know if somebody is going to walk in the door and shoot you. You don't know what they're going to do to you. If I were a multi-million dollar guy out of Silicon Valley, which is the most expensive place to live in the United States almost, but people want to live there like crazy and they grow their businesses there. Why, you wonder -- at any rate, it's a really neat place to live. But, they just have too many cars. But, if I were going to come and look at Arizona as a place, I would say, 'why would I want to live in a place where I've got to send my kid to another place to go to a good school. Why would I want to do that? I want him to walk to school down the block from me and get a high quality education and not worry about some idiots in the legislature cutting the funding.' It's a no-brainer. So, one of the things we have, and we can continue to have in the Verde Valley, is a high quality of life but we've got to immunize ourselves from Phoenix in a way. We suffer from the fact that out of 6+ million people, four of them live in Maricopa County and so it's very difficult for us to get anything in this tiny population so we have to do it ourselves. It starts with high quality of life - maintaining a high quality of life and a river flowing for everyone -- and, a river flowing through it is an indicator right away. Everywhere you go, a river flowing through a community is an indicator of a high quality of life.

Q6. We have to get believers and in my project for this thing here, I'm finding believers, so people who own reports who are believers who have, without prodding from anyone, gone green in some way or another. The people at Enchantment Resort is a good example. They have their own water there and they are very careful of their water resources. They compost. They bend over backwards to have a low impact on the natural environment around them and they just did that because they knew it made good sense to the image of their place that they were operating and it was important to them. The owner of El Rincon Restaurant is looney about keeping his environmental impacts as low as possible. It's just how he feels about it. LaBeurge Resort -- same thing exactly. An old hippie pulled this multi-million dollar resort together and his son is a student in sustainable development at ASU and is driving them to over achieve because it makes...and they have a good business...good business examples to talk about how they save thousands of dollars a month by being greener than they need to be. Xantera is handy here. Having them come and engage with some of the other people and say, 'look at what we're doing and this is how it pays for itself.' Sedona Rouge, Windham Resorts, these are all resorts that have just done

this. I didn't go and talk to them about it. The ones that we have gone to talk to about it were ...See what happened at Las Abrigados. They were the ones who started the Institute for Ecotourism. They don't do that any more but I'll see if they're still continuing with some of the things they started. So, that's how we do it. We get the guys who are in the economic community, who already believe in this, and we get them to show best practices and get them to preach to the others and say, 'come with us; the water is fine; this is the best way to do it.' National Bank. When I left Wells Fargo and closed my account and moved it to National Bank, I told them why. You know, we want, to be intrinsic, how we operate but we get the leaders to come and do the preaching - the ones in the business. Even though I've had a lot of business experience in this sort of thing, it's not good to come from me. It's better to come from the guy who's just suffering the slow down of the economy with the rest of the people there and he's still going green. Especially if you're starting a business, where it tends to cost more is when you have to undo what you've done and go someplace else. But, if you're building something up, you just build into it these low impact methodologies and then it's not really an issue.

Q7. The governor, the legislature, the culture of Arizona and a few entrenched business interests who are basically your old rape and pillager type of business developers who have developed part of this watershed already and are not even interested in talking to anybody about doing anything else other than doing what they've been doing. And, they've rationalized the point of view, you'll see them occasionally make a statement that will appear in the paper that says, 'we've got all the water we need in Arizona. These guys are commies or....' Fox News is an enemy to any kind of sustainability and anything like Fox News or anybody who watches Fox News is not so much...the people who watch Fox News are going to be a serious problem -- the Tbaggers and these others who are afraid, they're scared to death of God-knows-what exactly, and then are looking for enemies - people to point the finger at and anything different, anything out of the ordinary from their perspective, is bad. So, they are going to try to put a halt on it. So, the idea is grassroots. You need to go after things from a grassroots perspective. Find out what the core interests are. Why are they here? What do they care about? And, when you get down, even with a lunatic like Glen Beck or somebody like that, you get down to the basic elemental things, you say, 'what do you really care about' well, maybe not Glen Beck, let's take a human being, a real person, as say, 'what do you really care about?' you're going to get to commonalities and then you can say, 'O.K., now lets build upon that.' You may not agree on climate change and you may not agree on resource depletion and you may not agree on the definition of the economy, but there are certain things that you will be able to agree on that may be able to get them to work with you to do something positive.

Q8. Me. SEDI, VVREO, the Wine Consortium, anybody who is already green, all of the Chambers, the lobbyists could use it. Yes, the schools, NAU, ASU, UofA, Prescott, anybody who has got any kind of business course. And, as you say, it should be part of an intrinsic study in business so that anybody who is out there to get an MBA or any kind of degree in business, even accounting, should start looking at things with the right metrix. And so, if we start to develop the right metrix and show them what those are and we show values in conventional and, what I would call common sense as opposed to conventional, ways, that's going to be a lesson. That will be important.

Q9. Well, I would say...it gets back to the concept of branding. When we do anything in regards to sustainable development, or anything, we have to show value. What is the value that we're creating -- are we asking anyone to change what they're doing. The Nature Conservancy - we don't have to tell them anything. The Birdie Verdes, we don't have to tell them anything. But even, say, Yavapai College. When we went to Yavapai College, as an example and talked to them about why they should bring their agricultural courses over to our side of the mountain, we had to show them what the value of that was.

And it built around the wine industry along the Verde River and the fact that we have arable land so, in a sense, the Verde River was a center point of that conversation. I tend to look at it also, iconographically to say the river flowing through it, life -- it's a symbol of life and a metaphor for how life works and how we perceive our existence -- a river as opposed to the ocean or a lake. We don't think about a lake as being a metaphor for our lives. But we do think of a river as that. And, when iconographically, for instance when we started the Sedona Water Wise Alliance, we came up with a graphic and that graphic showed Cathedral Rock and Cathedral Rock has not water -- well, it does right below it is Oak Creek, but we took that iconic image of this flowing river and these rocks as a metaphor, a graphic representation of what we were talking about. So, in that way, we can take the Verde River as being the center point. When I talk to businesses, I don't start or end with the Verde River, but the Verde River is part of it because it's what made our environment here our major ...I think, our major economic driver is the hospitality industry. Eventually, the next 10-20 years, depending, that may shift to agriculture just because of resource depletion and other things that will impact us. Both of them are heavily dependent upon the existence of the Verde River. So, although if you go into a hotel in Sedona and talk with them about the river, except say for Los Abrigados or LaBeurge, they are right on the river - they're right on Oak Creek. So, they'll talk to you about that instantaneously. But, if you go inland a little bit to Sedona Rouge, they don't see the water; they don't see the river; what they see is the red rocks and they don't even think about the connection between Oak Creek and the red rocks. But, what I do when I talk to them, is I say, 'the largest growing segment of the hospitality industry is ecotourism and it is not a trend that we want to discourage or try to swim against. It's something we want to engage with.' The largest segment of ecotourism is birdwatching and it's a huge industry in Arizona It's enormous in Arizona and it could be fabulous here because birdwatchers are, as a group, they are more well educated, they usually have a little bit more income, they like to stay for a while because they're on a mission; there is a good chance they drink some wine and they like art and music and stuff, so these are the kind of tourists we want to create. We don't want more tourists coming to the Verde Valley because we've got plenty. We just want different tourists to come. To the point where, if they don't immediately see something benefit to the natural environment going on, they'll mention it. They are the ones who will walk into a hotel and walk into that room and say, 'where is the recyling bin; these aren't compact flourescent bulbs...' They will complain and we want those guys around anyway and we want to be prepared for them.

[others to interview] Are you talking to the Chambers? Are you talking to the lodging Council -- the head in Sedona is Lonnie Lillie and he is also the general manager of Best Western Arroyo Robles; 282-4001. You're talking to the mayors? You know, Doug and Diane have been engaged in this part of this forever. Rob Adams has been engaged as a contributing member of the quality of life for...he's just getting into the whole sustainability thing. Let me think. I mean there are other people on the city councils that you could talk to you. We elected a city council that is pro this. You know it would be interesting to talk with them. Mike Ward, Dennis Rainer is a Sierra Club guy -- these guys are already in our camp; Barb Latrell was the president of Keep Sedona Beautiful. But an interesting one would be Dan McIlroy. His number is 282-4613. He was the head of the Tea Party for the Verde Valley. However, he has also attended some of the sustainability workshops that I've had and gone to the Planning and Zoning meetings and things so he is very interested and what, exactly, does this mean? He's an interesting guy. He was a prosecuting attorney so he has a mind like a ... He's an interesting character just to get a slightly different perspective...real estate people.

[focused dollars] I would say supporting VVREO would be the way to do it -- get them an infrastructure. Right now they are completely dependent on Casey Rooney, just about, and what he's doing. But, I would say probably because if you had...if they were as strong as SEDI, you'd notice a big difference and

SEDI is not strong enough. SEDI is a weakling compared to what it needs to be. Well, I looked at the financials today and it's really ... it has its networking but you lose people right away. I have the problem with my committees in that people have their jobs and they have these responsibilities and they are my...they are volunteering their time to this thing and they're the way I get something done. So, I want to go into the classrooms and I want to do something impactful, I have to find somebody who is already doing it and encourage them in some way to do it, give them some sort of cheerlead. What I want, is to pay somebody to go in and do it and so I'm looking at things like...also, see, VVREO has, because of the involvement of Yavapai College in what's going on there and I would hope they'll get Prescott College too, because VVREO now is Yavapai County's regional organization, that we can get money to come in through the schools to get people to help develop entrepreneurs. And what we do is we identify the link between the, again I'm going to use the Verde River as kind of like our coronary arterial system for our economy, and so that meaning the whole watershed. And that's the whole environment, including us, is what we're looking at sustaining. So, we get these kids out there and they're funded in research in ways to help us do certain things and we find opportunities. We find some sort of businesses that would be perfect in the sustainability park and those kids grow the businesses. And so, I think the structure, the organization that holds that structure for this area is VVREO -- should be VVREO and we can grow it out of VVREO and, out of that, all these things can spin off -- just like they did with the wine consortium. [capacity to do it?] Not now. Somehow, with the funding..right now I don't think they have any staff. So, SEDI has two staff people and then they get, because of NAU, they get these interns to do things and they get some funding to help these interns. I don't know...I don't see anything at VVREO that's got that. What they're doing, is they lean on Jodi Filardo and what funding she has to do certain things. They lean on Casey Rooney like crazy for things and then the Wine Consortium, we've got these businesses and we lean on them in a way, in a sense, this is great. For instance, there was a branding thing or something that one of the group brought forth as something really cheap -- I mean $3,000 - $5,000 to do some really good work, and they were asking where they were going to get the money for that. So, they need, what I need for Sustainable Arizona. They need an executive director who is paid and somebody and that's what this person does and they need a staff coordinator who coordinates everything. They need a website person, a communications person who manages the flow of information, including the social networking aspect of it and all that kind of stuff. At a minimum, that's what they need ...paid, working on this stuff. And then the board can stop messing with that stuff and focus on doing things. The capacity is not there without the money to do it and they need to see...when SEDI got started, it was Carl Taylor, County Supervisor, who brought an office and some money in his back pocket and an enormous amount of influence and got this happening and funded right away. That was incredibly unusual for something like this. That is the other thing - Flagstaff is a completely different culture than even our part of the valley. We tend to be more open minded on our side of the Verde River watershed than the other side of the watershed and so there we are.

Interviewee: Self and BitzInterviewer: Doug Von GausigDate: 2-3-11

Q1. I think the basic thing is population growth within the system area and the consequent increase in ground water pumping and surface water usage. I think the growth in the Chino Valley area is the biggest impact to the Verde River and the next is the growth in the Verde Valley. [how does growth impact river -- additional homes] They are going to use ground water and I really think that ground water depletion as a direct impact on the Verde River. Yeah. I agree. It's the consumptive use of water in a non-sustainable fashion.

Q2. The direct linkage between the aquifer system and the flow levels of the Verde River throughout its upper and middle length. Pollution impacts by local communities on the water quality, including the possible impact of effluent discharge and the impact of such organizations as irrigation districts...their management practices on the flow of the river itself. I don't really think I have anything to add to that. I guess one broad question that has to do with all the water rights in the whole water adjudication process is just completely stalled and going nowhere so no one understands who owns which water at certain levels. The illegal use of irrigation water, I'm sure there is a lot of it. [Understanding the legalities of water use and water rights] We do have some (Arizona Water wells) that will be involved in (adjudicated water flows) and, of course, like everybody else, we've filed and refiled but until the actual adjudication we don't know what impact that will have on us. [Arizona water operating systems in Sedona, Rimrock, Lake Montezuma, Munds Park] You know, Munds Canyon runs right into Oak Creek so I would say it would be (in the Verde Watershed).

Q3. Well, there is ecotourism. Do you want specifics? There is a company in Sedona that provides whitewater rafting and similar types of tourism services. I also know that, if the definition of the Verde River system includes the tributaries, there are significant numbers of fishermen who come to Sedona to do fly fishing, etc. The entire system of, let's call it tourism...hotels, motels that are on Oak Creek and straddle all the way through downtown area of Sedona on Oak Creek that rely on Oak Creek for their marketing position. Would economic development of trends like the wind industry, the vineyards? That's all land that was never watered before and now you're using water where you've never traditionally used water. I don't know how big that's going to get. They say it's going to get pretty big. It could end up using a lot of water on grapes. I don't know how to classify that. [ag and impacts; grapes use less water than other crops and probably slightly more than residential development] There's also watchful wildlife in the form...for example, we have a significant birding festival that utilizes the Verde River every year and that has a much broader impact in the sense that it creates awareness for tourism...for other birding tourists to come at other times of the years, not just in the festival time to come and then want to go birding. [secondary impact] That has a very real impact on hotel usage, restaurant usage, etc.

Q4. I would really see it more as an expansion of the things that are already being done like you could have more ecotourism, more, for example, trail access so that people would walk next to the river and utilize the riparian habitat; greater use by the wine industry of ...kind of like the Sonoma, expansion of the existing opportunities. I can't think of any new ones. If I could think of a new one, I'd go into business. [Alcantara has vineyards that go to the Verde River] Yes, I've been there and with the local Audubon they did a thing visiting their site and the rest of it but that hasn't been really launched in the sort of the scale that is economically exciting for anybody. But, there certainly would be opportunities. I mean, the Verde River could be the only place in Arizona where you could go and do real serious watchable wildlife and riparian hiking. I mean, if you think about it, ignoring a few places in central Phoenix, there is almost no place, other than on the Colorado River, almost no place significantly on the Salt River, the Verde River has an opportunity to brand itself, or the Verde Valley, as a riparian tourism area. But, we do not have the trails or the access for a variety of reasons. But, there is a real opportunity there for people who want to come to northern Arizona and do that. I think a lot of it is because of a lot of private land right up to the river, it's hard to get something like that going. But, the Verde, the greenway system, if it was expanded, because it's a public system, could go significantly further. It's a potential. The Verde River Greenway, now that I'm warming up to the subject, if it was expanded in some sort of an organized fashion where you actually could create hiking, camping, picnicking areas along the river, in a large enough area where it's meaningful so it's not just one mile,

but a larger area where you can create something, we could actually have something that's unique in pretty much all of Arizona that I can think of. You know, it would be a great marketing pitch...branding for the Verde Valley. [ownership of parcels -- government, private, etc. tracts down to the river -- the shifting of center of the river] [ river access; mechanism to obtain meander lands; protect property owners] I think that's exciting. Easements and purchase of development rights so that you protect it. It would give economic value back to the land owners -- current economic value, so they would get cash now if someone was to purchase these development rights and protect the river and we've seen in many other parts of the country. It's the big capital that you need there. You could see land values go up because they live by a riparian area and if that area turns into a tourist destination, that could actually impact land values close (unclear). Look at the trail system in Cottonwood. Nobody wants a trail by their house. Everybody likes trails but they don't want them by their house. [negative impact of trails?] I personally don't think it would but I think someone would probably perceive it would. But, that might be offset by the money that they would get for the easement sale so they're making a current benefit decision in return for the long term. If easements were purchased instead of just granted...I think you're talking about the necessity of a purchase system. This would have to be done on a strategic basis where you identify a series of nodes. I don't think it makes sense to hop-scotch around like...already The Nature Conservancy has the confluence of West Clear Creek. They've got substantial land so it would make sense..O.K. there's a nodule there. Can we do something there? Then you've got, of course, Dead Horse State Park. What could be done in that area? So, you don't need a lot of the river to make this successful, but you just need some good size, continuous chunks. [state owned greenway and highway system; also forest service] They could be worked on. Especially some of the ones that might be close to the urban areas. That would make it very attractive for families to be able to bring their children which is something there is not nearly enough access for children to the river. There really isn't...for them to enjoy. You have to almost be an adult to hike or fish or canoe, what have you. And, it's not really safe other than a few trails to take toddlers and young kids down there. It would be a tremendous benefit to the community. So, access points to the river corridor. I think the county actually bought some property from Perez there by the new Mingus extension bridge for a future park but that would be a great access point.

Q5. You heard them [studies] but they need to be brought together because by and large, and many political leaders are not aware of them, so cohesion...all these different studies...it just seems like everything is getting so spread out there that no one’s ever going to get anywhere without coming together. I'm thinking there needs to be, maybe even an elected group, that could kind of spearhead all these different, I don't know if it would ever work. Somehow to bring all these different studies together. I think the key ones are the ones that show the economic benefit like I read an Arizona tourism study that talked about watchful wildlife ranking right up there with jeep tours as far as reasons that people come to Sedona. That was a surprise; and that points out the economic value. So, the more these studies become very tangible as they relate to dollars coming into the community, the more that the business community will support the need to sustain the river. Right now, quite frankly, most of the business community ignores the river. They are interested in tourist dollars but don't see the linkage. [people need to under the potential of the river] And, to work with the local Chambers of Commerce in a very proactive fashion to get them involved in this process of information dissemination of information and public policy relative to the preservation of a significant ecotourism resource. At the moment, they tend to be disconnected from it. They have other priorities. They need to understand the value of the river being there and the impact it has on their business. That's exactly right. How do you do that? I don't know. Education. Money.

Q6. I think there is probably some significant tourism, when I say tourism, business owners like owners of major hotels, who are local residents. The key here is to get local residents, business men and women who are local residents, anyone who owns a major tourism asset that is not locally based is likely not...municipalities is a big one there. They are potential supporters/stakeholders. Private water companies. Every time someone flushes a toilet in a hotel -- kaching -- and it's a good thing.

Q7. It's what I would call vested private interests. The irrigation districts is one area because it's easier to use, perhaps existing management practices and not invest in the long term and it may take some money or perhaps be potentially inconvenient to manage the water for sustainability. They also have, perhaps, lack of clarity as to water rights amongst all of the respective ditch companies so it's easier to use more water then no one is unhappy than if you start managing it and have rules and complications -- regimes such as you've seen in the Imperial Valley where there is ditch masters and significant controls would, I believe, be a real benefit but difficult to implement. [everything is difficult] I think irrigation districts are a positive impact. I think they extend the riparian area and they create habitat. But I do think there is probably some room to look, like, how much water could we save if we line these ditches? It's probably well past the time they need to come out of the dark ages and maybe implement better irrigation practices. Another area is the tourists that come here and use Oak Creek, an unfortunately high percentage are thoughtless in littering, pollution and things like that and the Oak Creek Coalition is a funded program to try to identify pollution sources on the creek. That's a body that should be supported and my guess is that their funding will be inadequate to provide a meaningful solution. [barriers to advancing sustainable econ development; fine line between attracting and degrading] That's right. Education of the tourists who are using Oak Creek -- use it in a responsible fashion. There is a clear limit to how much Oak Creek can actually sustain in terms of tourism and access for logistical reasons. Another potential barrier is that you've got to find that balance. I think you can over protect Oak Creek and it limits your abilities to be sustainable. If you have something that's great resource, like Oak Creek, running through your town and you protect it to the point where you can't touch it, I think that's detrimental to the future sustainability practices. You use water for irrigation. But, if you had that same stream running to generate electricity you could possibly, in the future, generate your own electricity for a town. You can over protect...it just limits your sustainability options if you over protect. I guess I'm thinking about balances. Like, Jerome. They're talking about maybe running some of that water off from the springs and using that to generate electricity. I think things like that, looking forward, I think we're going to have to be more creative ...using a resource without destroying the resource.

Q8. Well, people like the Walton Foundation and people that are...For example, I think the local political leaders, for example. The City of Sedona is currently doing its required multi-year community plan and the integration of the Verde River and its tributaries into the community plan so local political leaders will be critical. Anyone interested in sustainability and future sustainability will be interested. I think the public, at large, needs to be more informed. To a large extent, unfortunately, this conversation can sometimes be the choir singing to the choir and not enough getting out to the broad public to have the support necessary to make any meaningful progress.

Q9. [length of time in the Verde Valley] Keith: 50 years; I was born in Cottonwood. I've seen some changes. Brent: 4 years; I'm one of the problems in moving here. [interaction with the Verde] I grew up on the Verde River and Oak Creek. Where my family home is in Page Springs, it's right on Oak Creek so I make several trips to Oak Creek. I don't get to the Verde much anymore. Brent: I use it for birding on a regular basis. I go to Dead Horse State Park; I also go to the Jail Trail in Cottonwood. There are a few places as you work your way down...I don't really even know the names where there are roads that access the river where you can go in and see. [Attributes] Riparian areas that are accessible by road.

[focusing dollars] Keith: I would probably lean toward the trail systems; the public awareness; accesses. I think the more people use and enjoy the river the better the future health of the river is going to be. Get more people interested; get more people on board; so I'd probably spend my money in that direction. Probably some stabilization projects were they are encroaching on private property; get some of the old cars out of there. [unsafe to canoe because of ...dumping cars] I've rode up and down the Verde. There is a growing segment of people who really enjoy riding up and down the Verde. That's a great idea. There should be more opportunities for that. Of course, horseback riding has withered away from a tourism point of view in Sedona. It's not really something that's done much. It's got to be a great opportunity. It's all access though. [riding the river] The Lime Kiln Trail, down Dead Horse and across the bottom (unclear?) and it's because of access. You can drop in there on (?) Flat and go right down Lime Kiln Trail and hit the river without going through any private lands. Tavasci Marsh and Pecks Lake, an associated issue there, is a really under-developed...way under its potential. Pecks Lake, obviously is private, but if somehow they could be combined into what would become one of the largest wetlands in Arizona, that would be...there is a lot of potential there...that would be a remarkable asset for the Verde Valley. It would be unbelievable. I have so many memories of being a kid going up there to the ramadas. That would be my #1 thing. Make a big...We used to call that Merkwood (?) I don't know where that name came from. We partied there. I had my senior party out there -- a live band. [a road used to cross and go to Tuzigoot]

[additional interviews] City leaders. Have you interviewed Anita McFarlane? She would be a good one. Dorothy O'Brien, she's very active. John Neville. Just to get a different perspective, I would think some people who have lived here since the 1930s. [value in those; juxtapositioning] My dad's ...that would be a different perspective. He's real anti-everything new; anybody coming in here... You know, Donny Goddard has been here quite a while. He always has a lot of opinions on stuff. Have you interviewed Marlene Reinert (?). She's chair of the local Sierra Chapter.

[concerns about the study -- what could go wrong if we're not careful?] I don't see anything negative -- it's all for the good.

Interviewee: Tamera AddisInterviewer: Casey RooneyDate: 1-31-11

Q1. Development. Property. More wells tapping into our aquifer. Right now I see that residential development is key; but also businesses. You look at rivers in California; ones that have gone dry. We need to look at what went wrong there. [development; housing and wells as detriment] It needs to be regulated so is not a detriment. I don't know how, but...

Q2. We need to know the health of the Verde River. From my understanding, it's one of the last natural rivers in Arizona if not the whole region and we need to understand how we can keep that healthy by studying maybe the aquifer or the impact maybe that our current wells have on it or, are those impacting it at all? We don't even know. You know, what's happening upstream? So, we need to really study it from a scientific standpoint. And, like I said, again, looking at places where have preserved such rivers or ruined such rivers. We want to keep it viable regardless of what we do. [you live on the river?] Yes, I live right off the river and we have irrigated property and that's another piece too -- the irrigation rights were written, from my understanding, long before we were developed where we are now. So, that may be impacting it as well.

Q3. Well, from my knowledge, as far as economic development, tourism seems to be the biggest one and that has a broad spectrum. I mean, tourism from the Verde River and Dead Horse Park, they have activities and people can enjoy it. That Water to Wine - they're floating along the river and you can't do that on a dry river. I haven't been involved in any and I don't know who is, but I think tourism and development of our vineyards, and like that, is tying into it. It's a positive thing. People are going to come here for that river. They're not going to come here for a dry, dusty place. I know the Chamber, cities and private people are involved. But I don't know specifically - just generally.

Q4. You know we have a lot of opportunities. It's there and we just assume it's there, but for recreation, lifestyle, quality of life, you know I know there are some areas you can go along the river but it would be nice to keep those preserved where you can walk along the river -- so people can actually enjoy it. Right now it's bordered by private land other than the park or the city lands and stuff. [what about students?] We have a bioecology class right now that goes down by the river to study it. I think it would be good to pull them into this. They do all kinds of studies on it from what's in it to what's growing around it...the natural vegetation to the vegetation that's come in and isn't supposed to be there -- the tamarisk and things like that. [group of students] Howie Usher and his bioecology class would be ideal because they are doing these studies. [do you think they think about economic development] I think it's more ecology based but they really should think about economic development because it can make or break it. [future for students relative to the river - what would happen if the river wasn't here?] It wouldn't be the same. It's a central focus of Cottonwood. It was for me when I moved here. Not only do you have the water but you have the riparian areas and you have the animals that come to the riparian areas and that's what makes Cottonwood beautiful. It's more than just the water flowing; it's what is associated with that. We're lucky to have Dead Horse State Ranch....[problem w/recorder battery level] Economic development -- it's a draw for this community. Cottonwood is special because of the river; the water; riparian areas and animals that come to it make it a very rich area. [job opportunities for kids in the future?] You would hope in the future Game and Fish and Forestry would more and more jobs down here studying it and it would be nice if there was a city plan to incorporate it into recreational activities more than it already is -- you have Riverfront Park and Dead Horse. We need to keep those viable and open. [technical program - ag science] Ag science, viticulture with irrigation, that has been a great boon to our city and we need to keep going in that direction. I think we'll be unstoppable; I really do; and it is growing -- the wineries -- and kids here, if we can incorporate the viticulture into our current ag science programs, depending on what the requirements are, they could pair with Yavapai College as well as prepare students for future job opportunities as this area grows. We ride in on it. Their parents might even be owners of wineries or tasting rooms or the actual growing so they could continue with family land. [industrial opportunities] I worry about those. I know there should be but there has to be a creative way to bring them in. You worry about them and the contamination -- whether it be chemical or thermal contamination of the river. I worry about that or even just the resource of the water. I don't know. [beautiful area; different kinds of businesses] Tourism. Look at our Verde Railroad. It's capitalizing on that river without any impact -- an old track; so that's capitalizing on it. Dead Horse and Riverfront, the activities there, capitalizing on it. We could do better.

Q5. I think just the fact that we're focusing on our wineries. You know I think just getting the word...I don't think that people who live here even know what we have sometimes and, like I keep going back to, Dead Horse Ranch and Riverfront Park are key to this community and kind of celebrating that river. I also go back to, I think, if we had some kind of way people could get closer to it -- walk along a path or things like that, it would raise the awareness of what the river has to offer. We have a little of that -- we do have a little bit.

Q6. I think you guys go right to the ditch association. That's important. They need to be brought on board because those irrigation rights are old, old, old. You know. Also, the people bringing in -- like the viticulture. They need to understand that goes back to that irrigation. [other supporters?] I think out tourism is huge here and they ...tourism...you could do all kinds of things. We could look at what's happened on the Deloris (?) - or even in Colorado, you know they have the river going right through Denver and they really capitalize on that. It's a bigger river, but still, that's a good model. [who are the supporters in Denver - cities, county, state?] You mean economic supporters? I don't know. I would guess it would be county because it goes out of the city. Have you been there and seen that river? It would be worth going to. There's a river and I can't think of the name of it, that goes right through Denver and out of Denver -- it's a bigger river than we have but they've capitalized on it by having it go past restaurants and things like that and pathways, so I'd guess county or state. I don't think it's the city because it goes far beyond the city.

Q7. Those are all of our battles right there. That incorporates the barriers I see -- just the over-taxing of the aquifer; the ditch rights. You know, the ditch rights I understand because I live on irrigated property. The rights don't even have to be that...what happens is as we develop residence along the Verde River, now more people are irrigating and it's taking more and more water. Even if it's the same amount of property, it taxes that irrigation more and there are more wells. So, even though we want to improve our city and our city to grow, we've got to really watch that area along the river. [people who live along the river and control the water]. Yes, any increase in septic systems. I know the area below me was not developed because it had to have aerobic systems to keep from contamination, but I don't know how good it is with the old properties. I don't know if we're already poisoning that river. We have water at 10 feet. What does that tell you about things you pour on the ground and how many people are aware of that. [awareness of public about river -- take it for granted as a barrier] I think so. And, we could start that in our schools. [could you do it next week?] There are too many...I think, like I said, ditch company, the aquifer health, the property rights, that's huge.

Q8. Well, as we talk I just get ideas about how we could bring this into high schools -- high schools, junior colleges, community colleges; we can bring that all in to help that knowledge, help that culture start here because so many people went to school here and their kids are going here. If we can get that awareness out, it can only help that river and help our community. I didn't even think of that before this -- how important it is -- the awareness out. People don't understand what a rich resource we have and how we can't...you know, kids might pour oil on the ground and have no idea what that does. [educating the generation now in school to see value and relationship to their livlihood] And, I think it really needs to be promoted what that resource is -- the Verde River in its natural state is one of the few left. [telling kids what the river can do for them] Right now, if you want to live here as we develop to make it an attractive place to live and work other than community service jobs. [nature of this study; share value of river and to create jobs in the future] Did you talk to the college? Students, definitely students. I have an advisory group of parents, students and community members. That might be a real good venue to tie the school to this type of topic.

Q9. I think the one that keeps sustainability the best is tourism. Tourism, such as the Verde Canyon Railroad. Other ideas like that - the wineries; the viticulture. Like I said before, the Water to Wine. Things like that that don't tax the river unduly but draw people here to enjoy it and spend money here. And that's why I think if we had more of a pathway along it, people would see it and maybe appreciate it - maybe not. But that might also bring people here for tourism. Tourism is huge; I can't think of industry - industry or product based. I don't see that using the river as much as tourism or, you know,

government agencies to study the riparian areas or birding agency or people that want to watch birding or things like that -- more ecological things. [are you a birder?] Not technically - but I like to look at them. In my house we have the cardinals and the vermillion fly catchers come in - they're just stunning and the herons are nesting above us and you have the owls and the falcons. It really is amazing what's down there by the river. Amazing what comes through that property because of the water - because of the riparian area. [what businesses tie into it; a birding business] Maybe take pictures. Capitalize on it by exploiting its beauty but not exploiting its natural resource.

I'd like to see what we could do to bring it [the river] into our curriculum. [unique perspective of interviewee] That would be a great thing to do. It would be a win-win. And kids would be interested because it's here.

[how long in Verde Valley] Since 1996 - 15 years. [interaction w/river] I live approximate to you and on irrigated property and I walk to the Verde River. I also use riverfront for jogging and Dead Horse for biking and even though at Dead Horse I leave the river, that whole area wouldn't look like it did without it. I use it for recreational. I'm one mile from Dead Horse so you can just run there; run to the park and run some more. I use it for recreation; quality of life. You know, there are things that grow outside of my house that wouldn't grow anywhere else. You could plant anything and it grows -- garlic, we've had great gardens and vegetables and things like that. It's still quality of life. I think students could interact on that level as well as the usage and the cautions of usage, that's what I would like to see and tie that into the viticulture or the bioecology to watch how people become aware of that rivers' health and what's...This development idea of taking it to kids so they can study it and see it and have input and pass that on.

[focused dollars] I know what I'd do. I would take the plan that I see in Denver. I would put pathways; I would bring businesses that could exist upon it without impacting it. You know like that White Horse Inn. You could eat right above it. Remember? I'd like to see more where things that people come and do -- bring them to the river. I would use the money on pathways; on ways for people to enjoy the river but not ruin it. Bring them to it because right now you can't get to it other than the parks. [people who come and don't know about the river] They drive over it and never see it. [site it next to your house?] Yes. [10 acres for sale] It's tricky. Our water table, and I'm up, is at 10 feet. Down there it floods a little. We don't flood. We could get around that. But, I would spend the money of making that river more of an 'up front' focus of this town. It's there, it's on our picture, our emblems and letterhead. It's there but it's somewhat hidden, like you said. Unless they go to the park, or they drive to Sycamore Canyon -- it's all that, it's all Verde River. It's not just in the city. I'd make it accessible and promote it. [what would they do at the river?] Walk; ride their bikes; have picnics; kayak...yeah, they could do all that. I've seen it in other communities. [have a kayak?] I don't but I really want one. I thought of getting one and just going to the park and going around the little lake. Wouldn't that be fun in the morning in the summer? I have floated down the river before. It's fun. I think educated accessibility because whenever you open it up like that I would save some of my money for because you're going to have people that put trash out and do things. There has to be something put in place for that as well.

[who else to interview?] Some kids. They are our future. We can't ignore their opinion. We just did a leadership thing last week with our kids and they really are something. We need to talk to the young adults in this community. [group at college; group at high school] They are good. Teenagers are better than adults because they have all the excitement without the issues. They don't have the baggage yet - they're great! Just tell me when. Give me about a week and I can do it.

[strengthening link between river and econ devel] Probably on some curriculum things. You know...if it was just me, I'd take the money and buy a teacher - fund a teacher and then get those programs where you can have either awareness or do relationship -- whether it be bioecology, tourism or entrepreneurship or whether it be viticulture. That's what I'd do if you gave me, as a principal, money and I'd probably go to lunch.

[concerns about study] I think it's good because we need to bring that river foremost into peoples' eyes and thoughts. I don't have any concerns other than ...my concern is that it's not followed up with. I want to see something happen from this. We can talk all day but putting it into action is the hard part.

Interviewee: Greg KornrumphInterviewer: Doug Von GausigDate: 2-8-11

Q1. Well, I think the greatest factor/impact that will now and into the future impact the river is growth in general. It comes in a couple of forms, with regard to impacts to the river. Not only do you have the physical impacts associated with the impact on water as a natural resource, but I think you also have the impacts as the result of general land development. You know, we're now developing, in some cases, even in the hundred year floodplain, certainly quite a bit of development in the 500 year floodplain and much of that translates into water quality; increases in turbidity; and those types of impacts -- those then, are on the quality side, so you can have quantity impacts regarding increased demand and you have quantity impacts from land development issues that then manifest themselves in impacts to species, changes in riparian habitat, reduction of some species, increasing exotics...so you have the ability to, over time, completely transform what the Verde River watershed is like. We all know that hydrologically ground water and surface water are interconnected regardless of what the law says and that, over time, we can be very easily doing things today that impair the Verde River into the future for future generations. I don't think there is enough thought today put into our activities that can have that kind of an impact. Some of it is that we don't really understand the science. There might be some areas where you can poke around water. Or there might be certain thresholds that you might be able to approach in which there may not be any long term substantial impact because you have to remember that we have ...there are other factors going on as well. You have climate change. You have other things that are happening. We really don't know what effect climate change is going to have on us in the southwest. I have heard people talk about there being maybe less snow but greater rainfall during certain times of the year. I don't think we really understand how that may actually affect the Verde River with regard to habitat and other things into the future. [impact on recharge] How might it affect recharge? I just think there are questions on all of that that we don't really understand. We are doing things that we need to do right now to better understand it and you've got to do some speculation somewhere, but a lot of it doesn't translate into what we actually do on the land. You know, we still have the same type of development that we have always had in the past where you don't think about maybe using a different type of asphalt surphace in your communities that will allow water to percolate through the asphlat as opposed to running down roadways into capture basins that may not recharge anything but evaporate. The things that we start to understand never really translate into practice on the ground and I know it's because of economics. It is far more expensive to do a lot of these things. Where that tipping point is is where we all need to figure that out. [speculate/some assumptions; economics] It's just like making rooftop collection for landscape watering mandates. They would be screaming at you. They scream at grey water; they scream about anything that increases the cost. The problem is that we have a system that is set up to where the developers get in and they get out. And,

until we try to somehow, I don't know how, get into the process upfront...I don't know, maybe it's through some type of subsidy allowances that will make it a little less impactful to developers...I think they have tried subsidies in the past on some of this stuff -- it hasn't seem to have gone over very well. Again, you're pack to "who pays" again. The taxpayer is getting (?) enough as it is. Not only are we getting impacted by what we pay in taxes but everybody, a lot of people, is out there losing their jobs. It's very difficult -- its' tough politically to pass and just tough in general. But, like I said, until we figure out a way to actually put in practice something on the ground that is going to help manage our resources, you're kind of at a loss.

Q2. We obviously don't acknowledge or understand the Verde River as the resource that it is. There is not the visibility of it as an asset. It is viewed as something that is just kind of there as a function of the topography of the area. It's driven across; it's down cut; people argue about who can fence it off and who can't. You know, it's just not understood as the asset that it should be and if we can figure out a way to enhance it as an asset, and bring people to appreciate that, then that's where you then stimulate a whole new group of people who will come out and try to protect it. [reason to value the river; an asset] People move there for quality of life. The nature of that is that the river is there. They drive into the valley and they see the ribbon of green and think, 'Wow, what a beautiful area this is." But then they don't go to the river. It's a ...if that were to be taken away, I think you would be hard pressed to find a reason why people would really live there. I mean you've got your good climate; and it is a small community, relatively. But, they just don't...I just think without the river there, people would drive on through to Flagstaff which they kind of do now because they still don't recognize that the river is there. They see it as they drive by. It is an economic opportunity that we've all talked about that isn't really embraced. But, you know, clean air, Verde River, there are just all assets that you don't have in urban Arizona.

Q3. You've got the wine coalition that I think is one of the larger industries that is beginning to grow. It comes down to climate and the fact that they are utilizing some of the natural resource - water, that can have some of these future impacts on the river. But, in the case of grapes that they're growing, especially if they're growing vines on some historically irrigated lands or if we're able to move some water rights around, it's a water consumptive use crop and so I think you're getting a far greater value per acre growing grapes than you are growing other crops. [low water use crop - figures to support] The work that we've done, when you factor in vective (sp?) precipitation and then the decrease of the water that occurs in the time they need to stress the grapes to increase the sugar content, our understanding is that a typical crop is about 2 acf/acre and that's for water application. [augmentation] That's a pretty low consumptive use. Alfalfa is up around five acf/acre and even pasture crops to get a decent yield off of a pasture crop you're talking 3-4 acf/acre. It's highly efficient. All of them, as far as I know, are drip irrigated. So, the return on your investment per acre is far greater per acre foot of water you're using as well. [justapose against home building] Well, I don't think you can because if you...that's a one-time value for that property. When you have somebody that is developing the vineyard, that is a lont term commitment. It spurs other ancillary businesses and in all of those then, roll up to local taxes and everything that are paying for the value of that service. And so, it is very hard to try to compare a rooftop to an industry. It depends on your horizon. If you look at it over 20,30,40 years, the return on investment might be higher for your vineyard that it is for your rooftop. And then you guys have all done studies that have indicated that, with regard to the impact of subdivisions on public services, you guys never recover enough in taxes or impact fees to cover those costs. And so, that's a drag on...it you facotr that in, maybe it's even less. [viticulture and cost/benefit analysis as resource and economics] I don't think you are [using more water with viticulture that won't get to SRP]. Why do you say that it doesn't factor in from water? The typical types of subdivisions that they're building these days in many

communities, you're getting 4-5 homes per acre. [that's about 1 acf/year, right] No, not if they're irrigating outside landscaping and everything. If they're irrigating landscape...stuff outdoors with potable water, not only do you have probably a greater water use, it's certainly over 2 acf/acre, it's probably 3, but you're also, you have increased cost because the treatment of that water, the pumping of that water, eletricity associated with that water, you've got to put all those other costs associated with that water, that you wouldn't have if it was a vineyard. So, be careful when you're comparing those. What we have found is that, in our area here, is that as we have urbanized over time, our water use has gone down. Not only has our water use gone down, but we've decreased what we've needed to pump. As we increase in density, when we are fully denisifed, acre for acre we're going to be about the same as we are as when we were all agriculture. And so, and we're talking a higher consumptive use crop -- we're not talking 2 acf/acre, we're talking 4. So, if you're talking 2 and we're going to urbanize 4, if you have the same kind urbanization, you'd have a 2-1 urbanization over a vineyard. And, again, I don't have data. I just know through how we operate here and what the total numbers are, how we have evolved here in the valley over time. I suspect that over time the Verde Valley will evolve in kind of the same way. You guys have agricultural lands that whether you like it or not, they're going to be transitioned, at least to some extent, into developed lands for homes. They're going to have to be. [grapes into foothills] That brings a little concern to us because now they're pumping that groundwater that eventually is going to have an impact on the river and you don't have a similar displacement of historic water to replace it. I think that, if we truly want to help the river...the people that have these vines, they're fairly well off in order to get into that business in the first place. If there was a way to convince them that...you know there is all this talk about sustainability, green and, wouldn't it be wonderful if they would agree to sever and transfer some water rights to account for their water use on those newly subjugated lands that are up in the high elevations that are up from the river to ensure that their pumping of groundwater would not have an impact on the river. [what is there to transfer?} They can buy water rights and transfer them.

Q4. You have a lot of things there now. They're just not highlighted...like the recreation opportunities; like the esthetic opportunities; the birdwatching; the railroad...you know, all of those things that are there. Their visibility needs to be enhanced. Boy, if you could somehow figure out a way to create this sort of regional experience in the Verde Valley that is really going to attract people to the area, granted you run the risk of now people discovering the Verde Valley and wanting to move there. If a significant amount of money can be brought into the Verde Valley that's attractive to those resources, that would, I think, grow upon itself and again, by increasing that visibility, increasing the economic affect on the Verde Valley, you'd get a lot more people that then, when certain management decisions are made; when certain ordinances may be passed, you'll get a lot more people showing up to support that kind of decision making. What was it about 7 years ago when they tried to get the golf course limitation/regulation passed? The only people that came out were those that were against it and they were the developers. I don't know of hardly anybody that came out to say hey we need to do this to protect the river. [ordinances passed] I know you guys did and the County - did they go to all reclaimed water for golf courses? [not legal for them to restrict?]

Q5. [branding campaign to gain identity with the river] I agree.

Q6. Well, unfortunately, I think the most influential are those that are not at the table right now. And that is Maricopa County. Maricopa County, its population, I don't know if there have ever been any studies done, do you know of any that have looked at money spent by Maricopa County residents in the Verde Valley? [no, there aren't any data on that] We can assume that it is a fairly high number. [perhaps the primary visitor] But, yet, from a Verd River standpoint, there is very little visibility or

concern for those assets. So that's, I think, a group that needs to somehow be influenced to take a greater responsibility; play a greater role -- not only in policy but also, to the extent they can, the management of the river. I'm approaching it from a quality of life. Without that asset up there, there are a lot less things for people around here to go and do. There's a big pot of money here that if they could link peoples' lifestyles to the value of that river, that certain decision makers and policies could be made to help enhance that. So, you're not...and actually, you know, that might be some of the fault of your district legislators that they haven't impressed upon the urban legislators sufficiently to get them to understand the value of that river up there. [value to Maricopa County constitutents] We, as a utility...as Salt River Project, have traditionally stayed just within our service area with regard to ecnomic opportunities. But even we are starting to understand that it's really more Arizona, as a region, that provides economic stability and economic opportunity. So, even though we sell electricity within our established service area, if the Arizona economy is in the dumps, even in areas outside of Maricopa County, that still has an effect on us. And so it's more regional in nature that I think starting to play a great role -- like in Pinal County, in Yavapai County. We're taking a greater interest in what's happening from an economic perspective. [what is the reaction?] It's a little difficult mainly because now other utilities feel like -- what are we doing -- heading down this deregulation path...are you going to come and compete with us? And, that's not our intent. Our intent is to make sure that we understand the influences that are affecting economics in other areas because they, in many cases, come back to roost in our own service area. And so it's really more from that perspective. But we have to tread lightly because we are always suspect. When you go out of your traditional service area, it raises some suspicion. [SRP in the Verde Valley as example]

Q7. Obviously there are barriers. You obviously have some institutional barriers. You've got completely different laws in urban areas of the state than you do rural areas, particularly with regard to groundwater development [because of the Groundwater Management Act]. Yeah. And so when you try to go limit an individual from drilling a well ten feet from the river in rural Arizona, you can't do anything about it. Whereas in the urban areas of the state, there are lots of limitations with regard to developing, at least large capacity wells. Some individual communities have instituted ordinances that limits development of domestic wells within their water service territory where there is the ability to buy surface water. Payson has implemented some ordinances and some others have but you have to be very careful. You can't look at economics; you have to look at your ability to do line extensions and some other things.

Q8. Certainly all the elected officials -- probably state wide I suspect. I think the various industries; the construction industry; the tourism; and all those other industry groups are going to want to hear your results because they want to better understand how the economics are affected so they can maybe change the way they do business.

Q9. [focus dollars] Well, I think one of the focuses needs to be within the Verde River greenway, obviously. I think you need to better manage those lands closest to the river. You need to be able to have some type of control over entry; some type of control over management...because without that...those are lands in which, should they become developed or should there be another sand and gravel operation or should there be some other industry that moves in, that's going to have the greatest direct and immediate impact on the river. You know, years ago, we speculated here whether or not...you know that in the early 1900s when lands were set aside for national forests, it was Salt River Project founders that went to Roosevelt and said, hey, look, you need to set the watershed aside to protect the federal government's investment in Roosevelt Lake. And so the General Crook reserve and the Black Mesa reserve and all these other reserves that eventually turned into Tonto, Coconino and

Prescott National Forests. There was a recognition then that we needed to get these lands preserved and protected for the benefit of watershed management if we were ever going to ensure that we have access to these supplies of water. [focused dollars] We contmplated here at SRP about 20 years ago, after we petitioned the general stream adjudication and it wasn't going very fast, whether or not it would be better worth our money to buy up all the land in the Big Chino and overlay a conservation easement. That's where all the rest of the private lands really exist are up in that Big Chino portion of the watershed. Why it never was withdrawn early on, we don't know the answer to that. But we opted not to do that. Our board did not want to spend that kind of money and now here we are 20 years later and, if we had done that, we probably would have spent less money to protect our rights ...what I mean by our rights is the ability for the watershed to continue to sustain flows and to produce the amount of water that it has produced historically. [protection of land for 17 cfs] It's huge value today but 20 years ago it would have been a lot more economical. We would never do it today. Well, I would now [spend money] pick off certain primary pieces of land, but certainly you can't do the whole thing. [land acquisition or easement] I think either way. If you can, The Nature Conservancy obviously has done some of this. Purchase the land and then deed it back with a conservation easement. That's your most economical. Then you get somebody that's still living on the land being able to manage the land appropriately. You've got maybe an opportunity to do a purchase of development rights within a county and maybe this $10m goes for subsidizing some of those purchases. Now, obviously, you have to have taxpayer buyoff on a program like that but...you know you can get $100m in private and public funds, you can get a little more bang for your buck. [PDR on the river; conservation easements; land acquisition] Somebody has to manage the property, so some of that money needs to be set aside for management. But I also think, too, that maybe you put some money into some of this overall sustainable marketing opportunity or marketing of the sustainability aspects of the river. Again, if you really want to influence the future management of the river, you need to attract a bigger audience that cares and you're not going to get that big audience that cares until they have had the experience. The Verde Valley Wine Trail. I'm going to go do that, by the way. I haven't dont that yet but I'm taking 8 of my friends. We're going to rent a van and we're going to do the wine trail because I just kind of want to see what it's like to just to go do it without any big effort. Is it easy? You know, are they open to? Is this really the experience that you read about on a website and all of that? A lot of times things are made to be much bigger than they are once you go and do it and you have to be careful of that. When I went up to the Verde Valley, when Rebecca and I went up for a day, and we just went from site to site to site. We hit Montezuma Castle, Montezuma Well, Fort Verde, Alcantara, the hatchery at Page Springs, the railroad, downdown Cottonwood...just taking picures all day long from 7:00 in the morning and we got back at 6:00 at night. And it really was interesting. I had never really spent much time just going and looking at things and driving and we weren't able to spend much time at any one thing because we were constantly on the move. But, there is just so much of that and, I mean, I don't think you have to drive more than a few miles before you'd have another experience. And, a lot of it doesn't cost you an arm and a leg either. Granted, you want to go do Out of Africa or some of those things are going to get a little pricey, but so much of the stuff is either free or just going in and walking on the land...I don't know. It really is a very economical and wonderful experience to do and you just don't hear a lot of people doing it.

[concerns/excitement about study] Well, how much are you going to delve into opportunity for ancillary business and its effect on the tax base? [perhaps second phase of the study; ecological values; real estate] How many people are you interviewing? [almost 100; 70 are stakeholders or knowledgable people; a good number of people on the street] Everything I've said today you've heard me say before in one fashion or another. I will be very curious myself in reading some of these other perspectives and hearing about some of the other opportunities that people will see as potential. I'm pretty narrow

focused it seems just out of my experience, you know. I think that is extremely important in your study -- that you get outside of this box that we're all used to and make sure that you're getting people that are exposed to different experiences because that's where the value of your study is going to come in. [learning about the mythology of the Verde] What's your timeframe again? [six month study -- probably 7 or 8; second phase w/b a bit longer and more detailed and more number crunching]

[other interviews] Obviously you've got, I'm sure you're interviewing people from all your different industry sectors in the Verde Valley - sand and gravel folks, you know and all that. Sand and Gravel; casino; man on the street. Are you interviewing anybody outside of the Verde Valley - what about academics? [Yeah, we're interviewing people from NAU; Karen Fann] What about the sustainability college at NAU -- Ann; Chuck. I think you may want to talk to them. Outside of that, I can't think of anyone.

Casey interviewing Pastor Carl Schloeman, January 27, 2011, Casey's office

Q 1: What do you think are the most significant factors influencing the health of the Verde River system? (This question not presented but instead...)What, if any, are the data gaps in our knowledge of the Verde River's value and health?I can't speak for the study because I'm not familiar enough with the study to be able to point those things out. From my own data gaps, just having to come up to speed with what resources are currently being put into studying the river. As far as assessing how it's going, what vision there is for it, and its role in the Verde Valley. I'm largely in the dark. Certainly if somebody's grown up in Arizona, they appreciate the natural beauty of Arizona. That's getting off topic. As far as to how it can be preserved and enjoyed in its natural state...which is the core of the study...I would say that it's on target.

Q2: Do you feel there are things about the Verde River that we need to understand better? If so, what are they?I try not to sound like a broken record necessarily, I don't know exactly what you know. If it were myself in this study, I guess it would at looking at how we could maximize the attraction of its natural beauty, both economically and from an aesthetic standpoint. How do you go about doing that. What are some other examples that we can see throughout the U.S. How do we get people attracted to areas to enjoy the pristine beauty of the nature.

Q 3: To your knowledge what, if any, economic development activities have recently been, or are currently being, conducted that directly relate to the Verde River? Who is involved in these activities? I was just made aware of the Verde River economic development study which is going on today. Up until that point most recently, it's just a matter of preserving the water flow itself rather than redirecting it toward residential development or other municipalities accessing the water for drinking water and just actually preserving the river. Those are the only ones that I am aware of. Whereby that was some kind of contest between the City of Prescott and those other cities in the Verde Valley. (There are other people working on it but it's not being well publicized intentionally)

Q 4: What potential economic development opportunities exist which are associated with the Verde River system in the Verde Valley? I want to go back to the appreciation of the natural, pristine beauty of Arizona. I've been here since the early 70's in Arizona, throughout the state from southern Arizona to northern Arizona. In the last 30-40 years, we've obviously had a huge population increase. That in itself has presented huge challenges for

management of public areas. I think that an economic development opportunity is that pristine, beautiful natural areas in Arizona are becoming less. We still have a lion's share as compared to other states. That's the gem of Arizona...its natural beauty, its wilderness, its open spaces. In order to preserve that, in order to bring people in to see the Verde Valley amongst other things, the River amongst other things in the Verde Valley, a very intelligent vision for preserving that, a very good way of getting it funded so that it can be managed. (Do you see how people/your congregation/etc. can see value in it besides of going and looking at the Verde?) Being a pastor and preaching about the New Testament era, the River Jordan looms large in the New Testament story of Jesus and John the Baptist and many others. The Verde River is a very good comparison with the Jordan River and does very well for illustrating the stories, being able to visualize the stories that happened in and around the Jordan. I use the Verde River. It is very similar. I use the Verde River in teaching a lesson to my congregation. Much of, and I don't want to limit it to storytelling, but much of getting across real life experience is being able to visualize and see the dynamics going on. The words on the page are certainly our primary tool, but there are many lessons that can be learned about visualization, by acting out, not that I've taken the congregation down to the river to act it out. Getting them in the shoes of the people who stood along the Jordan to be baptized by John the Baptist or watching Jesus be baptized brings a much deeper and meaningful reality to them. Yeah, organizing that in such a fashion and packing that in such a way that it is easily digestible is the difficulty and that's the work of it. It pays off in the fact that people leave here excited about the Verde Valley and that spreads. Enthusiasm is very contagious and people want to come and see. They have to stay in hotels, eat at restaurants, buy wine, celebrate the time that they spent in the Verde Valley. Because of what their friends told them, they want to experience that. So that generates not only business for local businesses but also tax revenues and that directly benefits our community.

Q 5: In your opinion, what information and facts are there that could be used to promote and advance the connection between the Verde River and potential sustainable economic development in the Verde Valley? I think what facts can be used to develop it is, we have quite a bit of tourism here and northern Arizona. When people come here and they want to get a feel for northern Arizona, not only what it is today, but how it got to where it is today. There's a tremendous historical value throughout Arizona but especially here in the Verde Valley and the Verde River. The train tracks go along there from the earliest days of settling the west to the ranchers who came out to the miners to the building of the railroad tracks. Having all those facts available and being so accessible to Cottonwood. You can come to Cottonwood and you can stay and do the wine tour, visit downtown, go fishing at Dead Horse Park, visit the river. It's very accessible as a recreation area not only to tourists, but also to residents. It's important to understand all the things we have to offer and gather that data. Because like anything, especially nature, there's many dimensions...recreation, tourism, history. All that takes shape, and there are many people who are interested in that sort of thing. I think gathering that data would bring more people in because the more organized and clearly you can communicate the human story that's taking place around the Verde River, people talk about that. Then people feel more connected because it's been communicated clearly to them and that's something that they can take away and be enthusiastic about and excited about and tell people, tell their friends who may also be tourist, or tell people around the state. We have really a wide variety of things to do here in the Verde Valley.

Q 6 Who are important potential supporters in advancing the connection between a healthy Verde River and sustainable economic development?

I would say everybody in the Verde Valley who lives here. Even if it's only part of the year, 6-months, even if they're a snowbird or a sunbird or if they just travel through from time to time. We would all be supporters from the fact that it should be something that they're all our community support on a governmental level as well. Special interest groups and clubs who lend a hand to make civic groups or Sierra Club or what have you that might pitch in and help manage since the community and natural, pristine beauty is part where they're interested, this is a perfect place to exercise their passions about that. Bigger picture, from the state of Arizona, and I think they do have a stake in it with Dead Horse Ranch, the state park. We have things like state parks so we can have managed public areas so that they can remain beautiful and basically litter free, so that they're not destroyed by defacing or whatever the case. On the federal level, the federal level should always have an ongoing interest in the natural resources and maintaining the natural beauty. It isn't just about tourism within the U.S. that make people come to Arizona, but from around the world to see the wine trails, to see Cottonwood, to see a slice of the old west. People from around the world might be interested in that. Also, too, we're very close in the vicinity of the Grand Canyon which for, since it's become a park, has been an international attraction. Again the Grand Canyon isn't in a vacuum; it doesn't stand isolated alone so that people drop in directly into the Grand Canyon there. They come through northern Arizona whether it be via Phoenix or Las Vegas or across from Santa Fe. But they're getting a look at northern Arizona. So how is northern Arizona going to present itself. Not just to Arizonans or other Americans, but how does rural Arizona present itself to the world.

Q 7: What or who do you see as current or potential barriers to advancing sustainable economic development in connection with a healthy river( for example, laws and regulations, property rights, institutional like ditch companies, water companies, historic uses, etc.), changing cultural values? (If response is that “there are too many,” ask for top 3-5…interviewer’s discretion)I think that the very last clause, changing cultural values, I'm not aware of the legal impact in the question you asked, but I do know that the primary thing that has to be in place is just that value. If we value the Verde River, we value the natural beauty that it brings to this value. Laws of have a way of being built around and following values. That's how we protect our values. Since some difficulties can come in whenever you have changing cultural values, what laws should remain universal and basic principle and what laws should change as we see a need to shift our bodies. Can we do that without violating the rights of certain groups? I think there are many who do value it. It can easily be said that we don't value it enough but that certainly wouldn't apply to everybody. But it would certainly be best if we would value it more. Having grown up in Arizona and seeing a lot of the public use lands deal. Seen alot of wide open spaces. Once that land or whatever it is...that mountain, that forest....is diminished by use or decimated by fire, it is extremely difficult it not impossible, in most cases, to ever bring that. Once you let it go, it is 10 times the effort to bring it back then it is to just maintain it. I can cited several forest fires. I will cite the one that happened in the Huachucas in the 70s which took place on the second highest peak, on Carr Peak, burned away a considerable amount of beautiful ponderosa pine. Water was being pumped out of that canyon to Bisbee, Tombstone, etc. That lowered the water level of the mountain. There's less water available. The forest was able to maintain itself because of the coverage of the foliage. It was able to maintain the moisture, but once it burned, after 35 years, that forest has not come back. And will not until the groundwater is built back up. That would obviously mean to quit piping the water to Bisbee or Tombstone, which would be an enormous adjustment for those communities to try to become dependent on a different water source than the water that comes out of that canyon. But now that it's gone in 35 years and has not come back in spite of replanting efforts of the National Forest Service. It's possible that it could happen to the Verde. The enormous amount of effort and time that is required to bring it back and obviously, a forest fire doesn't threaten

the Verde River like it does a forest. But if it were to become so downtrodden by overuse and lack of management to where it just became a wreck, or it became polluted to that extent to where it was just an eyesore, rather than an attraction. It takes an enormous amount of effort to bring it back. It's much cheaper to just maintain it, keep it alive.

.Q 8: Who do you think might be interested in using the findings of this Verde River Economic Development Study, including the results of interviews such as this one?It would be no small miracle if anybody found a value out of this interview, but I think that as a result of this study, I think that different interest groups, civic groups like we talked about whether it's Rotary, or Kiwanis or Lion's groups, or whether it's the Sierra Club or other specifically Verde Valley interest groups, the City , small business owners, big business owners. How do they fit into the big picture? Getting a focused and coherent picture of the goals that are fitting for the Verde River and how everybody fits into that. It's crucial for us all to be going down the same road and actually accomplishing those goals and maximizing the potential in the Verde River. Because we can have that great idea and if we know that there's a potential out there for it to be not only a great economic stimulus, but a great aesthetic beauty for people to enjoy, but if we can't develop a coherent vision, then the herd will scatter and I think it's accomplished.

What ideas do you have about how to make the Verde River a focal point for regional economic development?That question almost kind of sums up all of the previous questions. The natural beauty, the recreation, the accessibility, all the different dimensions of history and culture and the human story that it offers. Having that coherent vision. We'll benefit from that. Nature is ever big as much as an investment as say stocks or bonds or bank accounts or planning for the future. It will return if we invest in it. If we value that and hold up the Verde River as well as the Verde Valley and the other things there are to do, there's many things to see and do here in the Verde Valley. Sedona, the surrounding mountains, Mingus Mountain, the mountains out east toward Payson, the river, the railroad, the mines in Clarkdale and Jerome. There's a lot of fascinating things to come and see. We can expand of that whole thing to grown economic development. I think it's largely what this study is trying to accomplish, which is to bring together a cohesive plan and to be able to package that in a way that's going to be communicable to people who come and to be able to experience it themselves.

Who else to interview?Besides Casey? With the cadre you seem to have on board, there's no lack of ability.

Where could you spend money to strengthen the link between the river and sustainable economic development?I think initially it would be right where it's at. I'd give it to you, Casey, for the Verde River economic development study. That has to be square 1, to find out who the players are and what we can do to develop a vision that can be taken to potential collaborators, participants such as the state of Arizona, the federal government, big business, small business, special interest groups, civic groups. You've got to have a vision if you're going to get people to buy into it. You've got to be able to communicate the value of the Verde River and why it's valuable and be able to allow them to step into that vision. And say I want to be a part of that. That's a great plan, a great vision. I want to help see it make that happen.

Anything concerns you?

I'm concerned that I'm not a lot more well informed about what's happening with the Verde River. After seeing the level of interest on a significant portion of the population whenever there was water rights contests that we referred to earlier. It is an important part, this Verde Valley. There's multiple points of importance in the Verde Valley. Certainly the river obviously one of the top. That would concern me.

In Verde Valley 2.5 years, June, 2008

Interact with river with Dead Horse Park, hike, it's a pretty area. I have yet to take the train ride down the Verde River.

$5M on behalf of the river, how would you spend it?Not even sure what you could do with $5M, build a nice church with it, but we're talking about the Verde River. Well, in terms of facilities, one could have a center of knowledge to be able to put on classes by state park rangers or other experts on the Verde River, have a facility for that. Also, put away money for its maintenance. Nowadays, people think about endowments. $5M isn't a tremendously large endowment, but it would be a start. So that shouldn't be downplayed. It would have to be figured in someplace. You might spend $3M on a facility and parking lot, $1M in an endowment, and have $1M operating costs for speakers, management personnel. Something like the Grand Canyon North Rim. $5M wouldn't get you a full scale lodge and accessory cabins and things of that nature, but it would go a long way to just having an information center, a public awareness and education center. Always stirs up interest. We kind of like what we know to a degree, and certainly if people are here to visit the Verde Valley that would be something that they would probably be interested in learning more about. To be a place that what we talked about earlier the dimensions of the Verde River that we want package...the history, the culture, the human story. You have that package? Where do you deliver it? At this facility.

Becky interviewing Jennifer Wesselhoff, President/CEO of Sedona Chamber of Commerce, recording okay, not anonymous, approve quotes attributed

Q 1: What do you think are the most significant factors influencing the health of the Verde River system?That's such a broad question. I'm not sure how to answer that. In terms of economic development along the river or utilizing the river, I know it's used for outdoor recreation which is an important part of what we offer here in Sedona. So we have some tour operators doing some work along the river or in the river. Then the wineries. So far as impacting the health, I'm not really sure how to define what's influencing the health of the river other than what's happening in terms of the feeding into the river and how those implications are being dealt with.

Q2: Do you feel there are things about the Verde River that we need to understand better? If so, what are they?Most definitely. I don't think, and especially for those of us in Sedona, we don't see the river everyday so it makes it difficult to keep in front of the mind and to understand what the impacts are of the river for us in the Verde Valley because we're not so close to it. I think it's out of sight, out of mind. If you were to ask people in Sedona how they felt about the Verde River and if it had any economic impact on them, they would probably say no. But if you ask somebody in Cottonwood, Clarkdale or Camp Verde who maybe right along the river, it's a lot different. Of course, that answer would be different. I don't think most businesses really even understand that there's even any economic impact at all from the

Verde River. Although what's happening at the wineries. It's connecting with the wineries more than ever. The wineries will impact tourism in Sedona. I think people need to understand better, including myself, is what are the dangers to the river and water rights and is there enough water. I just don't think there's a lot of really good information available to us. I don't know if it's in the Verde Valley or where...there are some groups that are really involved in protecting the watershed. Unfortunately, I'm not hearing from them, or maybe I am and I'm just missing it with the inundation of information. I think that there's a huge opportunity just to educate the residents of the Verde Valley and the businesses about the importance of the river because I'm really embarrassed to say that, as a community leader in the Verde Valley, that I don't know more about it.

Q 3: To your knowledge what, if any, economic development activities have recently been, or are currently being, conducted that directly relate to the Verde River? Who is involved in these activities? The only two that I mentioned before, those are the two that I know of off the top of my head, are the wineries and I would certainly consider that economic development, no question about that, and then some of the tour operators that are doing tours and attractions along the river. Are there more? Along with the other tourism activities, would be the festival and events. I would consider that economic development as well. Both of those two items are really ??? at the tourism side of economic development and bringing in birders. Birders are such high end, affluent travelers for the most part. It really is a great market for us to be able to target.

Q 4: What potential economic development opportunities exist which are associated with the Verde River system in the Verde Valley? I would say definitely more development and diversity of tourism. Your utilizing the Verde River for tourism would be an excellent opportunity for that. More kayaking, floats along the river. What Richard Lynch is doing. His company has really opened up a huge opportunity for Sedona as more of an outdoor recreation experience. The fact that it's so cool around those riparian areas of Oak Creek Canyon and the river, it's opened up a whole new season for us. Summer has always been such a slow season for us. In terms of diversifying, when we look at diversification, we look at opportunities for events or new businesses, we always try to look at what would help us in times when we really need the business, which are summer and winter. So to be able to develop some more events alond the river where it's nice and cool so that we can get Phoenicians up to escape the heat is a tremendous opportunity. I would think that anything else surrounding the wineries. I'm not sure what their needs are right now in terms of growth or more development for them. I'm not really sure what other communities how they use the river for economic development. I would be interested in seeing how other communities, what they're doing along the river in terms of educational opportunities or volunteerism along the river and preserving it. It could be a whole other opportunity, too, in terms of sustainability and really positioning the Verde Valley as a sustainable region utilizing the river, but unfortunately, I don't know what the opportunities are for growth in that area. It would be interesting to look at that. Unfortunately that wouldn't be part of my role because we're not really directly...that would be something for Cottonwood or Camp Verde, for their chambers to really look at. We would certainly play a supplemental role, but it would be interesting to see what they come up with on that. Sedona is more attractive working regionally and giving visitors more to do with Sedona as the hub. It not only gives people a reason to stay longer, which is what everybody wants, it's one of our charges to increase the length of stay. That's something that we don't have a lot of control over. We only can promote what's available. We can definitely look at product development and what we can do, but we need to have a good partnership with the private sector in order to develop that. We're not going to be going out there and creating product under the Chamber. We need to partner with the private sector to do that. The river and Oak Creek really set our Verde Valley apart from any other destination in Arizona. There are so many times

when visitors come here and they're driving up Oak Creek Canyon and they say "I feel like I'm in Colorado. I didn't even know that this is Arizona." They don't understand how diverse our landscape is and that's something we could take so much advantage of. Not your typical Arizona experience. They think desert, low desert and heat, Phoenix, Scottsdale, palm trees. That's what they're thinking and cactus. It's just such a different experience. With more resources, the Verde Valley Tourism Council could take much more advantage of differentiating ourselves. We just don't have the money. We invest in that regional tourism council, in some years it was up to $30K. Now it's closer to $10K-15K. Cottonwood in that same region, $10K-12K. Camp Verde invests $5K and then with Jerome and Clarkdale each investing $1K. At some point in the last couple of years, with the matching grants from the Arizona Office of Tourism, we had $80K to promote the Verde Valley. Now we have AOT down, and the players don't have any money. That's the hard part. Camp Verde, Jerome, Clarkdale...there's no money there to help promote. Unfortunately, it falls on the backs of Sedona and Cottonwood, which has been a great partner to promote the Verde Valley. They understand the value. Even though tourism is not their main industry, it's important to them. Like Jemez Springs and Santa Fe, that could be another opportunity for economic development. Really looking at a river walk. In Sedona, we've been trying to do the creek walk to get people to experience the Verde River. Unfortunately right now, it's a little inaccessible. I mean that's the thing with Oak Creek. Where do you access it? Our visitors finally they can even see it and experience it on the pedestrian bridge by Tlaquepaque. That creates more excitement and interest in it. Wow, I didn't even know there was a creek there, in some cases. For the visitor who is driving in from 260 through Cottonwood to uptown Sedona, there's a good chance that they might not even know that there's a creek right there. I think making it accessible could be a tremendous opportunity for economic development and education. We have the wonderful state parks that do provide that but with the uncertainty of the funding of the state parks...Red Rock State Park and Dead Horse...who knows what the future of those parks are and in turn what happens to the rivers running through them. Some other potential economic opportunities...I wonder if there's some opportunities in agriculture. To go back to some of our roots and our history of the apple orchards. That could be an interesting opportunity, especially with the centennial coming up. Maybe there're some grants available to go back to the roots of what Sedona and the Verde Valley was really created because of its location on the river. I wonder if there're opportunities there. I don't know what source of land is available, what's happening right now with that, but that would be a Chamber opportunity.

Q 5: In your opinion, what information and facts are there that could be used to promote and advance the connection between the Verde River and potential sustainable economic development in the Verde Valley? Part of the challenge of all the information from all the water groups is that only the people who belong to those groups are getting the information. So how do you communicate to the broader public about the value of the river. I don't know what other information and facts exist. Other than some of the things that we already talked about. I know there are events that we help promote. There are the state parks that we helps promote. We know that, but in terms of the facts and information about the health of the river, I don't know what's out there. Is a lack of education and public awareness just in Sedona? Because maybe it's just us because we don't see the river every day. I'm just thinking about our B-flash (online information update). We sent that out every single week and we open it up to anyone who wants to put information in that's newsworthy in there. I don't think we've ever gotten anything about the river. The hidden waters.

Q 6 Who are important potential supporters in advancing the connection between a healthy Verde River and sustainable economic development?

The chambers in those regions. The wine consortium is a good partner/supporter. The State Parks. Businesses who could be impacted. I don't think there's any business organization specifically surrounding the river, but maybe there's an opportunity to be there. Any of the economic development organizations...maybe VVREO, Cottonwood Economic group, the sustainable groups...there are so many. We have our sustainable commission in Sedona that's starting. I'm sure that they would want to be involved and be educated. I don't know how much the Oak Creek Task Force is involved, the Oak Creek Watershed Task Force. If they are broader than just Oak Creek. I would assume that they concern themselves with all watershed issues in the area. That could be a group...maybe Gary Garland? Anita MacFarlane. She's a big supporter. I get an email from the Oak Creek Watershed Group every so often. Next time I'll forward it to you for the contact information. Any of the birding organizations. They would be really interested. The elected officials.

Q 7: What or who do you see as current or potential barriers to advancing sustainable economic development in connection with a healthy river( for example, laws and regulations, property rights, institutional like ditch companies, water companies, historic uses, etc.), changing cultural values? (If response is that “there are too many,” ask for top 3-5…interviewer’s discretion)I'm not familiar with some of the laws that legislators are working at right now. The one I am aware of is the current of...we'll probably write a letter for the Grand Canyon Trust...the issue about uranium mining and how that might affect the watershed. I don't know how that would impact the Verde River if at all, but that's a potential law or regulation. Just really understanding the value of the river, I think is a huge issue, just an awareness is a huge barrier...lack of awareness creating the desire or the need to be aware. How do you create that? Why is it important for our community to understand that healthy, vibrant river is important to their everyday life. That's got to be hard to do with all the information that people are bombarded with. It's really hard to get people impassioned about the importance of issues. Arizona Office of Tourism is challenged in state funding...it helps support chambers. The Department of Commerce and how they're restructuring. We haven't been a focus for the state in terms of economic development and we fight for our awareness and our place in tourism as well. You would be surprised that even Sedona has to keep reminding the Dept. of Commerce and the Office of Tourism that we're here and that we contribute. A lot of their funding comes from the big cities and Maricopa County and you invest in people who invest in you. Sometimes it's difficult to show how northern Arizona and rural communities really impact the tax base of all of Arizona. It's difficult for groups to become noticed by state organizations and departments. Also, in Sedona, being divided into two counties, which don't necessarily impact the Verde, but does Oak Creek. It would be really difficult, we already don't feel like we get our fair share of attention in any way...attention or resources or financial resources...allocated from either of the counties because our tax base is spread out, it's divided. Other potential barriers, property rights would be a huge barrier. I don't know enough about it and have heard a little bit about what's happening and how people are fighting for their rights for their particular water, but I don't know enough about that. I would think that that would be a barrier as well. I think the major barrier is really education and creating awareness.

Q 8: Who do you think might be interested in using the findings of this Verde River Economic Development Study, including the results of interviews such as this one?I would again mention the companies and organizations that were mentioned above in #6. The economic groups. This is where I think our City councilors need to be aware of and if there's any way that you could do a presentation to each of the councils and elected officials. This is where the Sustainable Commission would want to be aware of this. I'm not sure if they've met yet, I know they're in the process. I would mention this to the Sustainable Economic Initiative, maybe even some of the

organizations out of Flagstaff even though they're not really here. It would be important that they're aware. Maybe there's some opportunities with NAU as well, universities in general.

In Verde Valley for 11 years, interacts with river/Oak Creek--done kayak trips, wineries, some events along the river, experienced the state parks; my knowledge of the river is closer to a 2.5 on a 1-10 scale. Chamber uses Oak Creek in a lot of promotions of how we promote the area. The same with the Verde Valley Tourism Bureau. We use the river in our promotion of the Verde Valley.

If someone donated $5M to help health of the river...Most importantly would be developing and educational program, an outreach program. Making businesses and residents understand the value of the river and how it impacts them. Secondarily I would look at economic development that would actually increase the tax base in some form, whether agriculture, tourism. Events along the river. If there's more opportunities for that. Lastly, I would look at accessiblity and somehow making that river more accessible. The more accessible you make it, the more buy in you get from the entire community about the importance of it. That's a very difficult thing. You want to spend $5M and actually see a return on investment. And making the river accessible whether it's a river walk or a creek walk, it's really difficult to show a one-on-one return on investment. It's a real indirect benefit, but making it accessible has so many other benefits. It's so hard to get that one-to-one return on investment when there's such a trickle-down effect on tourism with the river; it's a trickle-down effect of how it impacts our everyday lives. People don't understand that...whether it's tourism our number 1 industry or if it's the river. People just don't understand how is seeps through every aspect of who we are as a community. We must share best practices with what other communities are doing. I would really love to see what other small...are there models of other communities who have what we have or have developed their rivers and are really utilizing it. With all the challenges we're have with the US Forest Service and accessibility and their true belief that our community doesn't want commercialism on the land based on the study that was done 12 years ago and hasn't been updated, so much has changed since then. But they are so difficult to work with when it comes to how our community and our visitors utilize the land in terms of motor coach operators and events on the land. If there was some way to utilize the river as an opportunity to develop some of that, I think it would open up another side of tourism. Right now, we just hit our head against the wall with the Forest Service because they don't what to allow us to have commercialism on the land. In our opinion, what's more impactful...40 cars with 2 people each in them parked at a trailhead on their own or one motor coach with 40 people in it with a guide that educates and teaches them about the "leave no trace" or the geology. There's a disconnect there when the forest service sees the motor coach as commercial, it's not allowed even though in reality it has a tremendously less impact than 40 individual cars with 2 people each not knowing where they're going, not understanding the leave no trace concepts, building fires, camping. It's a challenge. To be able to have some alternatives where commercialism can happen in a safe, educational environment. It's not necessarily the red rocks but it's a part of the experience. That's a whole piece that I hope people are getting. They're cutting off a lot of opportunities because they see that as commercial. So they say come to the state parks. Well, tour operators are working at least 12 months in advance and sometimes 18 months in advance. We don't know the future of the state parks. We can't feel good about adding Red Rock State Park or add Dead Horse State Park to your itinerary and then they add it and then 6 months later, it's closed. Then what do they do. There are legal obligations that if they're not following through with what their clients are buying, there are legal ramifications to that for our tour operators. It's really difficult. In terms of economic development, keeping that in mind would be very helpful for the Verde Valley and could really help increase tourism.

Doug interviewing Richard Dehnert, February 15, 2011, his house, richarddvvgclinic.org, 634-2360, recorded, anonymous, would like to approve attributed comments

Q 1: What do you think are the most significant factors influencing the health of the Verde River system?Water. That would be first. There has to be water before there can be a river. Obviously, watershed. The conditions on the watershed. Ground water pumping, diversion, climate. Ground water pumping is a threat to the base flow of the Verde River. I see a direct connection between ground water and surface water.

Q2: Do you feel there are things about the Verde River that we need to understand better? If so, what are they?It's been my understanding for years that people have been doing studies on the Verde River and where its water comes from and how it's affected by ground water mining and diversion and useage and all that stuff. So whether that needs to be understood better, I don't know. The hydrology. I'm not familiar enough with what we know to know whether we need to know more. It seems to me that it's been studied to death perhaps. From what you've told me about the recent deal with the Bureau of Reclamation study, that's a pretty thorough assessment of where the water comes from and how much of it there is. I'm not sure we need to...the general public may need to understand it better, but it is my understanding that the basic data is there. I guess there's still a debate on the effect of the Big Chino development, developing the water resources of the Big Chino. I guess there's still some debate about whether that has an effect on the base flow of the Verde. If you came up with the answer to that and it showed that there was an effect, the people who are interested in the Big Chino would deny it. So there's two different truths involved with this. People in Prescott say that the USGS data on quantifying to the acre foot what the impact the Big Chino will have on the Verde is not right. I guess the word I use was debate. If there is a debate, I'm not sure because there's not enough information or it's because people just don't want to accept the results of the studies. Does that make sense? So how do you inform people about the science that is known? Don't we already have some educational programs that are based on the Verde River? The guy who used to take the kids out on the river...there is a Verde River educational thing. Project Wet, the Greenway...Vanessa Carr, she's usually working with kids. There needs to be programs in schools. Why doesn't Yavapai College offer a class on the hydrology of the Verde River? There should be classes on riparian habitats in Arizona that the college can offer. The k-12 schools should have curriculum elements about the health of the Verde River and its environs. Then the usual public relations...radio, newspaper, mass media, messaging.

Q 3: To your knowledge what, if any, economic development activities have recently been, or are currently being, conducted that directly relate to the Verde River? Who is involved in these activities? Tourism. Verde Valley is a tourist destination in part because of the Verde River. Tourists take the railroad. I don't think anybody would be interested in riding the railroad if there wasn't a river running through that canyon. It supports fishing and hunting. Ecotourism is supported by the river. You've got Richard in Sedona Outdoor Adventures taking people kayaking and that's great stuff and he gets a good dollar for that...$175 for the water to wine kayak tour. The ditch association/surface irrigation system supports agriculture which is part of our economy. Train is one that doesn't use the water, doesn't go anywhere near the river, but if it weren't for the river, the train wouldn't work. Just that sort of riparian scenery, the ambiance of the valley that wouldn't be what it is if it weren't for the river. There's a tremendous amount of photography and image making of all kinds, painting and that sort of thing, that uses the river as its subject. It's also the subject of history which people come here for. A lot of the history of the Verde Valley wouldn't be there if it weren't for the fact that there's a river there. Fort

Verde is a good example. Birdwatching. The Birding and Nature Festival is a big draw. Hundreds of people from all over the world come to that and they don't touch the river.

Q 4: What potential economic development opportunities exist which are associated with the Verde River system in the Verde Valley? I think there's still a lot of room for tourism to be enhanced. Nature, adventure, eco-whatever you want to call it tourism. Nobody's done yet, maybe it's because of the hydrology of the river and you can't depend on it to be at any particular level, but nobody's done anyway in the way of...probably the closest there's been is the back deck at the White Horse Inn...you know sort of riverside development to where people can access a nice dining deck for a place to have dinner or a place to watch, some birdwatching location, or a boat launch. We have a few of those with the slip sites, but they're all in pretty remote locations and they're not exactly...and I'm not suggesting the San Antonio River Walk, but putting tourist attractions whether it's restaurants or hotels or retail development in the close proximity to the actual river itself. I don't think anybody's really done that. It's probably because they can go from 25 cubic feet per second to 300,00 cfs and it makes it a little hard to figure out where to put your deck. Without channeling and controlling the flow, that's difficult to do. Indeed, it's kind of like anything else, if it doesn't get used, it won't be protected and maybe that has to be considered. Certain stretches of the river would have more economic development value and would be more valuable to preservation by...like you have to burn the village to save it. Would have to have a regulatory component. Whatever you do to help get people connected to the river, whether it's by encouraging them to look at it, or to ride on it, or to fish in it, or whatever else, those people become constituents of the river. Thereby, they are more likely to favor conservation and protection and those sort of things.

Q 5: In your opinion, what information and facts are there that could be used to promote and advance the connection between the Verde River and potential sustainable economic development in the Verde Valley? Probably. Somebody knows something. Does the Chamber of Commerce have a figure on the annual impact of the Verde River? Probably not.

Q 6 Who are important potential supporters in advancing the connection between a healthy Verde River and sustainable economic development?Obviously the tourism industry. Environmentalists. Economic development organizations. Local municipal and county governments. And water users. Irrigation companies, ditch companies, outfitters like what we talked about with tourism, naturalists, and conservation organizations.

Q 7: What or who do you see as current or potential barriers to advancing sustainable economic development in connection with a healthy river( for example, laws and regulations, property rights, institutional like ditch companies, water companies, historic uses, etc.), changing cultural values? (If response is that “there are too many,” ask for top 3-5…interviewer’s discretion)Prescott. By virtue of their planned pipeline from the Big Chino and by virtue of their ability to get the state legislature to change the law to allow them to do things that nobody else in the state can do. A potential barrier is the lack of information about the threats to the river. I don't think you were there, but when we had that valley-wide chamber of commerce get together over at Cliff Castle Casino a year or two ago, the Sedona, Camp Verde, Cottonwood, Clarkdale, Jerome...all the chambers got together for a regional meeting. We went around the room talking about threats to the economy. I mentioned that I thought it was really important for chambers of commerce to support protecting the river and its water and that we had a serious threat in place from the Big Chino and Prescott. The Sedona Chamber of Commerce didn't know anything about that. Their board was sitting there, their executive director was

sitting there, almost the whole board, and nobody knew anything about it. As soon as I mentioned it, they all got up in arms and said "We've got to do something about that." They didn't know. It was shortly after that we had a quarterly chamber luncheon at the guidance clinic and we got Rick Mabery to come and talk about water law and what the threats were and all that stuff and invited all the chambers regionally. I think that initiative is probably fallen by the wayside so far as engaging Sedona in this battle. There are a lot of resources there that need to be drawn in. What I would see as a current barrier is a lack of knowledge about the threats to the river.

Q 8: Who do you think might be interested in using the findings of this Verde River Economic Development Study, including the results of interviews such as this one?Economic development. Departments from the various governmental entitities, chamber of commerce, regional economic organizations, business people, conservationists.

Lived in Verde Valley 32 years; interacts by fishing, kayaking, hiking...depends on the time of year as to how frequently, at least monthly...more than monthly in season

If you had $10M to spend on behalf of the Verde River...I would go to Doug Von Gausig and say "What should I do with this money?" You could buy wells and take them out of production. Buy the entire Big Chino but I don't know if you have enough money there. Booby trap pipelines. To the extent that you could do what the Nature Conservancy does and you don't need so much to buy riverfront property as you need to buy wells and take them out of production to protect the base flow. However you do it.

What is impact of Big Chino pipeline to people in Clarkdale?My impression has been that the Parson's Springs...what is it? Del Rio Springs at the headwaters is connected directly to the Big Chino aquifer. At some point, if you pump enough water out of the Big Chino fast enough, it stops flowing into the Verde River. How much of that, what percentage of the base flow in Clarkdale and what percentage is from Sycamore Creek, I don't know. It would be significant I would imagine. We can dry up the river with our wells, but we'd rather have an enemy to blame than ourselves. Chino can dry up 24 miles of the river. That's not good. We have to love the whole river, not just our part.

Who else to interview?Richard Lynch, wine industry folk, Robin from the train, media folk...Dan Engler; Trista Steers...so she would realize how little she knows, Henry MacVittie Trista's fiancee...owns and operates a waste water treatment facility and they do the Jerome waste water plant, and Pine Shadows

Any thing about this study that concerns you?No, you guys know what you're doing.

Doug interview with Dan Campbell, by phone, okay to record, don't need to be anonymous, okay before using quotes

Q 1: What do you think are the most significant factors influencing the health of the Verde River system?

The positive ones are all kind of givens. The negative ones we know are the burgeoning population growth followed by the overdependence on the ground water we use. Therefore, the potential for reduction of the flow. I think that the preponderance of exotic species, particularly fish, but and plants as well. There's an impact on the entire river system. There's a disconnection between some of the tributaries and the main stem of the Verde River. It's actually both good news and bad news if you take a place like West Clear Creek, the fact that it’s severed now from the river is good from the point of view that exotic fish, bass and some of the other exotics out there aren't getting up there. I guess you'd have to call that a good thing. But the bad thing is the native fish that depend on the main stem of the river can't get to it. Crayfish? and other things exotic. The system that natives grew up in or evolved in no longer exists when you sever that connection. We did quite a bit of research in the Aravaipa Canyon??? the essential need for fish to go up into the deeper, shadier, cooler canyons during the summer and then out into the more open, sunny, warmer pools in the flats and eventually the San Pedro River during the summer. And that’s an essential part of how they evolved with this landscape. It could be diurnal not just seasonal. And it affects other things, not just temperature...oxygen, nutrients, and other stuff that might not be in a river at least from the fact that it had this little detour after farm fields. Let’s add that top the list and groundwater up above. The rearrangement of surface water to the valley is something of great concern. A couple of others: 1. The lack of education so that there is really no way that we can tell who knows what. Therefore, there's no way to regulate how the waters are used if we can't make the ditches more efficient without really knowing who has rights to the water. 2. Where the ditches are concerned, there's a tremendous amount of the water that is now being diverted for a changed agricultural use called bermuda grass. You really have to wonder at a certain point if that crop were worthy of taking water out of the main stem of the river. If you were to balance the two, the lawns that are the preponderant use for the water from the ditches, I don't think are a high enough priority to take water out of a river. (Why is population growth a problem?) There are probably a couple of concerns. 1. The towns' use of ground water is a big concern. As Cottonwood and other cities intercept waters that are heading for the river, we're going to see the demise of the river just based on the growth that is occurring now. Another concern that I have is that, I think it was Kevin Hauser that once said "We're not following the law of seniority here. We're following the law of priority." Which is in the case of our ditches, in terms of trying to regulate or control in any way the flow of water in ditches is just that whoever happens to be higher on the ditches ends up being able to get water...physically higher...instead of temporally in terms of seniority which is the way that most ditch systems are supposed to work. The fact that we have still a significant body of water in agriculture is a good thing in terms of it serves as a buffer? That we still have time to make the social decisions as to if water should be best used for urban growth, wildlife, a balance of the two. I believe that the crops that are currently growing with the waters coming from the ditches probably don't justify their taking them from the river. Talking about alfalfa, starting with bermuda, then crops like alfalfa which uses an incredible amount of water for a very little return. The good thing is we have enough water, a buffer that we can actually refigure the equation and still put water back into the river. I don't think we've ever given the river its due in terms of aesthetics, recreation, all the things we do by way of float trips. The color green has a significant value to home values. Their view, the sub-irrigation get if you happen to be down near the river. Those things are invaluable in terms of your property value. We've never calculated it. I know there's a calculus that you can do. It is possible. Here's a suggestion, the study that was done years ago often cited for conservation easements are a thing of value all over Colorado. They created a database for recent home sales from say the year 2000, those that have recently sold, and assumed that those are the best comparables that you could possibly have because people actually did pay a premium. The closer you got to the greenway, the open space, the circular greenway around the city of Boulder, the higher the property values. They then computed the amount of the additional taxes that there was generated. It turns out that the additional taxes more than compensated for the purchase of the

conservation easement program that created the greenbelt. Great justification. You and I both know that either homesites or business sites in Jerome that look out over the valley and view the river are more valuable than homesites that don't have that view. I believe you can use recent sales as a tool to quantify its value. Then there's the weapon for our action. On the Santa Cruz , I lived in Tucson while the Santa Cruz died systematically year by year. There were more and more dead trees. Those trees died in the mid-80s and they're still standing there today. You've had 20 years or an entire generation of people looking at a dead river, not just the absence of a green river, but you're looking really at a horrible sight. Who among us would like to spend the next 20 years looking out over dead trees on our neighbors’ lawns or farm fields next door or whatever. That's the inevitable consequence or drying out our riparian areas.

Q2: Do you feel there are things about the Verde River that we need to understand better? If so, what are they?Certainly the thing that we all have to worry about is the current or worse yet, the anticipated future deficit of water. When will we see this first dry stretches occur and is there any way to avoid that. I tend to be pretty gloomy on that. I think that ??? is now saying the same thing and seeing the same thing. It's this delayed response to current pumping that it's beginning to express itself and so I think one of the first things I notice is when, where, how long is for the duration of drying and what will be the impact of that? The second thing that goes with that is the whole environmental flows scenario. Who is most vulnerable? What are the canaries in the mine? I think is not just linear stretches of dry river. It didn't start that way. It's difference in substitial? or aerial ???. The green sward on both sides of the river starts reducing inward and as you see the water table drop, you start seeing the first impact on the pinched lands where peoples' houses had always assumed that they would have maybe with it was mesquite, or the cottonwoods and willows and other things. The next big question is how much of our riparian areas do we lose and that's just completely in terms of simple economies. What else do we lose when we lose that? All the pollinators, all the whole myriad of ?? and other critters in drying soils. Huge impacts on all kind of things for ??? dragonfly. Guess what, your crops are going to have pests that you never saw before because the dragonflies themselves were ?????. All these unintended and unexpected surprises. What will we do with the conclusions? The biggest single concern is its kind of a couple of different things at once. It is very, very difficult for any human being and we elect leaders to be kind of fairly omnicient and it is very difficult to really know the complexity of the logic of economic interaction on these systems. Therefore, we have a group of people that are very reluctant to actually make decisions. I don't want to criticize any one group. I look at WAC whose original job was sustainable water management. At one time in history, there was the opportunity to compare 5 different scenarios from the current state to a highly integrated water management plan. We see a lot of reluctance on peoples' part to really make hard decisions. First of all because they don't understand how to make decisions of that complexity and then secondly because we're in Arizona, there is a political, social reluctance to do things that may be uncomfortable and bring negative attention to you and secondly, harm peoples' interest. We don't ask the public to make hard choices. Do we want agriculture or do we want suburban growth? If we have those two, do we want to lose the river. Where in the balance between those three are we willing to kind of push the arrow? And we don't have very many courageous political leaders that are willing to stand up and say things like "We need to consider completely closed systems of water use." There's a mayor somewhere that once did that. Laugh. One of the things that's a concern of mine is that you can actually look and walk at water like Caesar looked at Gaul. Hydrology is a very important part of it. It's the more abstract of all to think about kind of ground water models beyond what most people can. And of course, a hydrological survey takes four years to say anything. So by that time you're brain dead and you don't even care or remember what the answer or questions were that these things were answering. ??? it's all biological draw back. If people

really better understood which I think they can, I think it's actually a ??? way of doing it, I think we could explain you remove the water, you kill the cottonwoods, and you have a whole line of dead cottonwoods all the way down the valley and you show pictures of the Salt, the Gila, the Santa Cruz and what it looks like when that happens. I think people get that. That isn't so abstract. Then next you talk about economics. I don't think that that's that abstract. It is a bit, but we quantify it and we can help people understand those elements better than hydrology. (Do you think there's an element of people who distrust our motives?) We live in an anti-intellectual age. For starters, I've been distressed to learn that people don't trust science or scientists. I think they might suspect the motives they really. You know ?? with USGS geologists or hydrologists, just can be seen as conservationists or ?? meddlists that are using science to quote her own hands?? or some other people's motives and wishes as well. I do think that the environmental community is seen as a ragtag group of people looking out for their own self interests. It's difficult for one cohort of people to talk about saving water for the Verde River for rafting or for kayaking if indeed they're recreational kayakers. It just looks like self-interest. There isn't any difference than...they have just as much right as a developer, a right to say how they're using the water. Or as the farmer, they can say no I'm going to use the water to grow my crops. I think there's a perception of self-interest. We don't have very many people who are perceived as altruistic or agree with the ??? that's standing, for its own sake. I wonder if from time to time, like Ed Wolf seems to have broken the sound barrier and there are a lot of people listening to him. I don't know whether people perceive him as self-interested, or don't trust or believe in him, that he's using science in his own interests. But he doesn't even live in the community. It might be a good example of somebody that is seeing things in an objective way. Then you have, it doesn't matter who the individual is, say a Tom O'Halleran, that everybody in politics has friends and enemies and that divides almost any group that we have. So when you get a strong proponent of any point of view into an elected office, there's a whole cohort of people that get turned off right away because they didn't vote for them or agree with their politics or whatever. So that there's a distrust issue. We have a lot of distrust, very little trust going on.

Q 3: To your knowledge what, if any, economic development activities have recently been, or are currently being, conducted that directly relate to the Verde River? Who is involved in these activities? It's great that VVREO is taking a longer look. It's great that VREDS is taking a longer look. We can see kind of directly the growth of the sustainable industries like the wine coalition, the sustainable agriculture coalition, back to the their ??? or something like that for recreational users. There's not a lot of great economic stuff that is going on right now. In fact, some that we've seen recently is very paltry. The NAU study that came down with ??? so cursory. We also have a long way to go to jive the numbers of population, anticipated population growth between the transportation developers and the water developers. Those are essential that we agree on some of those things so that we can project the economics of the future. We don't have that. We're still wallowing out there with ??? and projections that we don't even really believe, don't have a good grasp on. And we never will. Maybe nobody ever does. That's part of the abstract ??? Couple of them go this way...recreational users.

Q 4: What potential economic development opportunities exist which are associated with the Verde River system in the Verde Valley? There is a burgeoning opportunity for several months in a couple of different seasons for canoe, rafts, kayaks if there were better put-ins and if there was better law enforcement and public safety considerations and public dedications. I know of at least 7 places up and down the river where you can put in and take out, but there's really nothing systematic. You're really on your own in trying to figure out how to use the river and how to get in and out with your craft, how to call for help if you needed it. You're on your own. It could be more structured. There's a ???? by that ???? turning it into one major

recreational river outlet is not necessarily best for populations of things that we care about. For instance, every year, when Arizona State Parks department is getting ready to run their trips and/or their canoe trips, they discover beaver and guess what happens to the newly constructed dams. They're being systematically dismantled. You get the impacts on beaver and otter and all of a sudden you're having the impacts way beyond anything that you every anticipated on native ???fish because of the structures have been ???. The dams are critical to the coevolution of the native fish. Without a good and healthy population of otter, we're seeing the crayfish population going boom. That can't be good for native fish. One opportunity that is out there is recreation, boating recreation. I think that there are others that can be quantified and people could speak up...that's fishermen, equestrians, hikers, and ????. All of those...a whole cohort of people who haven't ever spoken up for even what they have that has a lot to do with the river. I also think that we have just got to think about...a side tangent: I live in the San Francisco area with Alice Waters started her green restaurants. I know of 3 of hers and they're so many knock offs around the country all the way to Washington DC. What was sustained there was first they only served organic food. That was cool and it worked and people liked it. Now into the market crowded other restaurants. So how does she distinguish herself. She says she's only going to serve organic foods that are grown locally. That caught on big time in Sonoma County and Napa, Marin. A huge number of farmers started small agricultural operations aimed solely at providing the produce and spices she needs for her restaurant and now that's everywhere. It's throughout the Bay area. We've now heard that Sedona is starting to brag about that their starting to serve locally produced foods. The farmers' markets, the CFAs. There's a huge band of Verde Valley that's without any doubt, the only place, that's going to produce the food that will increase demands by high end restaurants, cafes. There's a huge market there. What we need to insist on though is that those new operations also have some kind of a water footprint which is less than what its predecessors were using. So if you had 20 acres of alfalfa dividing it up into 7 3-acre places, they have to use an aggregate less water than 20 acres used in order to be simply justifiable. There has to be some education around water footprinting and...jumping to a bigger picture... I don't think that it makes sense just to go after the small agricultural users or the recreational users. I think that the entire Verde Valley needs to be branded so that everybody that participates in new economies that depend in any way on water, need to be able to borrow and not tarnish the reputation of the label Verde Valley. It's not just the hotels and restaurant industries to brand themselves. Or just the wine. It's everybody that's got to do it. The sooner that we can put it together, all of those interested into one place and think about the value, the reputational capital, of a brand for something like the Verde Valley. That has to have the water footprint ??? into it to work. They don't even see themselves as a river community. And that is a big whereas...if you take a look at California, the Russian River, Mendocino, Sonoma, Napa. If you're making cheese and it's being made in Napa Valley, it's better cheese than anywhere else in California, so people think. If you're making bread, you better pull your operations into Napa or Sonoma because it's Williams of Sonoma, you're borrowing their halo effect. We need to create that same air as there in the Verde Valley. The water footprinting of the viticulture program at the college is not being looked at. The big concern is that grapes are an arid land crop. Grapes grow better on the foothills than they do on the bottoms. Well, we've never irrigated the foothills before, so as an added use of water, not as a replacement use of water. People don't want to hear this. Too much of a good thing. If we could actually make it our replacement crop and there was something like a one for one, an acre retired here down in the valley for an acre put into cultivation up in the foothills, then great. But that isn't the way it's likely to happen. Need planning departments that understand where the Venn diagram of housing and growing grapes cross over. And there's also the ??? of the wedge. When you start developing areas with roads, water sources, electricity for one purpose, it's not difficult to branch out into the next and the next generation of users until you're eventually a whole lot like rural development. You create roads and power and water and you're going to have a suburb. You're creating a habitat.

Q 5: In your opinion, what information and facts are there that could be used to promote and advance the connection between the Verde River and potential sustainable economic development in the Verde Valley? Beyond what we've said, there are a couple of things that are obvious. One is that the Verde River already enjoys a reputation, a good, solid reputation, that the people from the valley come here and it's great what they've seen when they got here. If they've gone to Dead Horse or to ???Bar V or they've gone into Sedona, up Oak Creek, out to Sycamore or Fossil or wherever, they've liked what they've seen. So there's an aura or halo effect that's already here. We can capitalize on that. We've got to protect that golden goose. It's the reputational capital that's defensible. There are other places in the State that have done a great job of doing that...Patagonia and Sonoita. Sonoita has a lot of wine, Sonoita Creek has a lot of nature preserves. People are cognizant of the fact that they're ??? is there. So we can learn from other people as well as having our own indigenous strength.;

Q 6 Who are important potential supporters in advancing the connection between a healthy Verde River and sustainable economic development?We are totally real estate driven. Realtors, and there are probably 3 different eschelons--developers, builders, and realtors, each with their own lobby, each with their own voices in the legislature, each with their own industry. All 3 of them need to recognize that their future is not in more homes, that is infinitely more homes, but more high quality, valued added developments in the future that preserve the amenity value of wet, green viewshed that assures sustainability in their industries. Obviously short term profitability is the answer in as much as a longer term look into the future. That's the industry that really needs to be brought along. The chambers. An anecdote...25 years ago, I heard Bonnie Colby, a research economist at the U of A, do a study of the economic value of our Ramsey Canyon preserve to the greater economy of Sierra Vista. Here we had 6 cabins, a book store, we had 13 or 14 species, what I think now are 16 species of hummingbirds in the area. She did a number of interviews and willingness to pay studies and determined what the likely impact on. The rest of the hotels and cafes around Sierra Vista. In the beginning, we were made fun of. There was a lot of mirth in the community because we were trying to figure out the value of hummingbirds to the community and they got a good laugh out of it. About 2 years later, we did exactly the same thing with the new San Pedro River when they first put in the San Pedro River house. We showed another number that was actually a bit higher because of how much closer it was to Sierra Vista and that maybe 3 years. One year later, the City of Sierra Vista decided to change its city logo to the hummingbird and chambers of commerce in the Verde Valley have yet to wake up to the value of ????. Everybody...it's a tide that floats all ships. If you're a pharmacy, you do better if you have a very successful Verde Birding and Nature Festival because people will be buying from you. Motels, everybody.

Q 7: What or who do you see as current or potential barriers to advancing sustainable economic development in connection with a healthy river( for example, laws and regulations, property rights, institutional like ditch companies, water companies, historic uses, etc.), changing cultural values? (If response is that “there are too many,” ask for top 3-5…interviewer’s discretion)Two major things that I see as opportunities and that I see equally as barriers. The first is that everything we are talking about a true regional approach. Not to be critical but the towns don't see the river a shared resource. Maybe municipalities are the best way to start doing regional economic development anyway, but we have such a weak county system. We don't really have a template for doing...from my vantage, there's a 40-mile Verde River greenway, from Sycamore Creek to Beazley Flats, and that's the unit we ought to be looking at. We all should be looking at it, not just as municipalities or

counties or whatever. The first hitch is that I don't think we have a political view of regional planning. The second one is that we do have all these public agencies that don't coordinate or cooperate. Therefore, it's going to be very difficult to get the kind of regional planning that we really need to get done. For instance, Max Castillo talks about this quite often, that these two properties in the Verde River Greenway are very difficult to manage because people can legally camp right next to a forest service block and you can't run them off. There may only be a 40 acre pure forest service ground on the river and they may be recreating over onto the new state park property, but there's no control over any of it. If there's fishing license or hunting license is for certain abilities to access land, you get those on private land who are totally oblivious to the ATV users or highly sensitive to ATV users but the government agency next doors allows them. You get all of these herky-jerky interfaces all the way down to the Verde River greenway that don't lend themselves well to regional planning, which is ultimately what I think we're going to have to have. (Describe an organizational structure that provides that regional planning)Here's what I would do, if I could choose today where to put the Nature Conservancy's office, it wouldn't be in Prescott. It would be there on the river. If I woke up everyday in the Verde Valley and I had staff that was really paying attention to this, I would think that I would be looking much harder at this coordination and collaboration between federal, state, county, city, private and tribal ownerships and to see if we can't get into these people's heads that at least where the flood plain of the river, i.e. beyond where you can really as a private property owner reach any kind of profit. If we looked at the river as a greenway that actually was well managed so that you knew as a private property owner, for instance, that there was a law enforcement entitity that you could call if thought somebody was doing something on your land or you want to talk to the state or if you're the feds, you can talk to the state, if it was a coordinating entitity that was managing the Verde River greenway. Since the greenway itself isn't ??? on state parks, it could be everybody's greenway, it could also have its own, well the friends of the Verde River greenway or the beginning of what I could see or imagine is a, and I know this from several other places in the US where they have done that. They have ignored the juridisdictional boundaries. They've hired staff, they have volunteers that both clean up, volunteers that serve as ???, and that there is a new private entitity, perhaps not with legal binding force but to ??? indication of collaboration up and down. The biggest booster for the whole thing is the communities and their Chambers of commerce and others that recognize that it is the only thing that unifies their communities. We both know that Hwy. 260 divides communities. 89A divides...communities can't agree where to put the big box stores or where the right place is for traffic lights. There's not another amenity like the Verde River that I think everybody could agree on anywhere throughout those communities. Is it a pie in the sky vision? Yes it is. Could something like the Walton Family foundation make that happen? Yep. It could. I think we could play a role. I think you could play a role. I think we could create in the public mind, a 40-mile greenway that was greater than the sum of its parts. People could get over to a better coordinated, more collaborative management of the river. I think we all have an inherent belief that somehow nobody owns the river. For me, I also think of the tributaries as a part of it. That adds an additional element of complication and really the whole vision has to be kind of basically all water users to be under that umbrella, not just the floodway of the main stem of the river. People have to understand that ground water and the river are connected. I think that collaborative manangement down along the main stream is probably a good place to start.

Q 8: Who do you think might be interested in using the findings of this Verde River Economic Development Study, including the results of interviews such as this one?I hope that there is good interplay between...May 19th maybe when Kornrumpf and I with VVREO are putting on...for us to all intersect. I don't know what we're talking about yet. May 19th, 2-5 at the college. Right now that is a 3-hour community conversation with 100 people. We're inviting 50 of them

we've selected. We'll probably spend, if we feel like our economic study is really done and really valuable, we'll use that opportunity to roll it out. The other 2 hours spent on community conversation where we have people visioning at 10 tables each with facilitators as scribes envisioning how the river serves their needs, should serve their needs. Coming out with some kind of an action plan that I think will probably suggest that there is some organizational structure that is kind of a way forward. I will probably push because I've been hosting these meetings between the agencies that all the public land agencies and that would include the tribes and probably some ??? the cities, the state, the feds, all agree to lead the way, or be willing to look at collaborative management up and down the river. But there's this next more important part or sphere of the Venn diagram which is the economic incentives to the population to see the river better protected and better use of that. I think that that's the clientele you're asking about, that this study should inform them of the real values that your industry, no matter who you are, is profiting by a river running through it.

Involved with river since 1985 when Babbitt asked me to come up to see if I could define Cap Iries to buy the rest of Dead Horse State Park. Since that didn't fully utilize the $3M that he had in his hip pocket, I went to Dorothy Hunt and other people to see if they would willing to sell their land, the flood plain, or their easements to their land that was to create this first Verde River greenway when was 6 miles from Tuzigoot bridge down to Bridgeport.

If you had $10M to spend on behalf of the Verde River, what would you do with it?I would do 3 things. I would create a friends of the Verde River greenway which is significantly bigger and different than anything we've seen so far. They'd have a board that was the blue ribbon board of leadership of several of the sectors that we've been talking about...the economic, the financial, the real estate, the development, the recreational, the civic, and the governmental. I would have a full time facilitator who is an intelligent, analytic thinker who also articulate that can gin up a vision that we get people to buy into to create a whole big community conversation around the need for collaborative management. Then I would continue to try to acquire significant nodes of flood plain or access easements or other things to the river because, and I'd do that quietly. I have 27 years of dealing with the perception of private property in the state, and we're trying to buy strategic nodes, from the Verde River headwater springs through the Rocking River Ranch. We'll become a Dead Horse State Park of some kind in the future because we need anchors on both ends. You've heard the analogy that the brontosaurus needed both a brain in its head and a brain in its tail in order to survive. A 40-mile greenway needs a major administrative site in the south and Camp Verde needs to be represented just as Clarkdale and Cottonwood can value by having Dead Horse State Park up there. There are several other strategic nodes that you can imagine that we're looking at trying to acquire any of them. We're trying to get the Babbitts to turn loose of the land and cattle company that is another real key piece of wildlife habitat. I would continue encouraging the state parks and the forest service, the Salt River Project has more litigation money that they could spend for SW Willow Flycatchers. We've been trying to get them to part with some of it to acquire more land in yet another place. If the tribe ??? actually managed it for the river. Each of the talents that have any actual ownership of Camp Verde, that's quite a bit. Or get everybody to connect the river corridor. If one of the potential donors of $10M is the Walton family foundation, we've had that conversation with them and they didn't go with us. We tried to have them understand that in Arizona there is nothing better than owning property. Regulation doesn't work, altruism doesn't work, coordination. Not much works except owning it.

Anything about study concerning you?Unless we know what we're going to do with the thing by way of a roll out, we've already figured out how we're going to use the tool we're creating, most of these are like crow bars to get great leverage

but we don't always know what will work. Start thinking now about what do we want to see this thing change. Otherwise as people get jaded, they don't want to hear it...like right now people are jaded on hydrology. We could do the same thing in terms of economic development. If people keep hearing about it and nothing happens than we could do a disservice. We often provide free market or public sector data without really asking who's going to use it and for what. A better strategy is maybe VREDS is not the organization to make it work, but maybe say VVREO is or maybe the Verde River greenway is. Is VVREO the one to take any of this stuff and make a difference? Is it a shell to try to populate with a director and a purpose and really create a political advocation group? They have a reach with Sedona signing on, and maybe Camp Verde. They seem to be about progressive ideas, economic development, have a track record with wine and sustainable agriculture coalition and broad band development. There's where the $10M goes. It's really making a series of actions and actors and getting support and creating actual change on the ground. It has to be funded. We can't look at city or state governments for much of anything. People need to say we want, and not have the government saying you have to have.

Interviewee: Steve AyersInterviewer: Doug Von GausigDate: 2-2-11

Q1. Let's start with the positive ones. The positive ones would be the wide spread interest that has been generated here in the last few years - I wouldn't say last few years, I think it really started in the late 90s about the time Prescott initiated its efforts to pump the Big Chino. I think that energized a bunch of people that probably were sort of complacent at the time. [Complacent how -- caring or knowing] Probably a combination of the two. It was one of those things you just had a river here and probably assumed the river would flow and the winds would blow forever and they realized that maybe that wasn't going to be the case at some point or the possibility existed. [around the time WAC was formed] Exactly. I believe the WAC was what really gave the whole thing a 'wack in the ass' so to speak so ... I think that's the biggest positive thing is the fact that there are people energized and there are people doing it and the coalition has continued to grow. It has started to take in and form some partnerships but all with the same ultimate goal. Folks, for instance, from the ditch side, we're starting to see and I know I've played a little bit of a role, in trying to initiate with some of the ditch companies that, 'hey, fighting these guys is not the issue; the issue is to work together because we all have a common goal.' SRP has a ditch at their end; they want their water. We have ditches at this end; we need our water. So what impacts us, impacts them and getting people to understand that larger dynamic that goes on out there is, I think, it's done a lot to bring some people that were otherwise adversaries to the same table to discuss things. When they start to look at it in a larger perspective, they see it in a different way. (SRP) They are a business and they want some certainty in the way they do business. They want to know where their water resources are and that they're perpetual and they will be able to keep them and I think that's important to them. And that's why I say that SRP is a villain to some people but here's this company with these enormous resources who can come in and help us out with some things. And, I think it's important that we team up with them. Ditch Companies and people like The Nature Conservancy that have done a tremendous amount of work and, at the same time, The Nature Conservancy has also gone from being some "villain environmentalist group" to somebody that has a common interest actually working with three different ditches down here in the Camp Verde area -- finally. But it took a while for people to say, and we still see it, there are still members of my own board of directors and other ditch company board of directors who still see them as the villain. So it's a long process to break down these old thought patterns and get people to understand that we're really all in this together. So, the positive end is that that has happened. That's

probably the biggest thing in the river's favor. The more people that buy into it, the more willing that we will, as a region, buy into the fact that the river has to continue to flow for economic reasons or esthetic reasons or just because you pass it down to your kids, however you want to put it. [negatives] Well, the threats, of course, are development. The threats...I think the biggest threat is Arizona water law, personally. I think the biggest obstacle that we have working against the health of that river is the legal framework which water law is based on here -- the separation between surface and ground water. Until they are connected -- legally, I think you're going to continue to have these same issues coming up; the same obstacles to overcome. [adjudication] Adjudication is really a separate thing because really that's basically to sit down and say, 'O.K., under the current framework of water law, first in time, first in right, here is the listing. Ultimately it's going to separate that out and put them in a priority listing. It will actually work, I think, because at some point, you've got this same with Colorado River law, when the water reaches 'x' point, you don't get your water anymore because you've got to (?) your water rights. I think it will eventually reach a point where it will work to our benefit, with anything. [adjudication -- appropriation and subflow to surface water issue] I think you bring up another key point because the separation, again you go back to the water law which is where the issue really arises, so then the adjudication, they're going to have to differentiate because the law forces you to differentiate. So, you've got to draw that line someplace. And I think there are huge benefits from it. I don't see where the adjudication is, in any way, a detriment to the river. If anything, it's another thing bringing awareness to it and it's another thing that's trying to separate some things out and give us some lines in the sand that eventually if you want to bring in some water management principles and practices, you'll have something to work with. [blurring of bright line] It should. But that's where you go back to the ground water/surface water connection. You start...you have to start doing things differently. I think the bright line is going to be a very bright line by the time the adjudication goes through the court system barring changes in state statute. [currently moving ground into surface water] You start bringing up some of these studies to make us more aware of the connection. When Ed and I talked about his study, I'm talking about the Ed Wolfe analysis, and the thing that he didn't really have in the paper, but I brought it up to him. I said, "Looking at it from a perspective of the ditch company, we'll be the first ones to suffer if that river starts to drop off." It says in there that when the ditch companies start to draw their water off in the summer time is when you're going to have the problems. But when there is not water, there is no ditch running. So, those issues, again, this is an issue where you take some of these old guys around here who have been, and are so set in their ways, with 'we don't like environmentalists, and we don't like this and that.' The fact of the matter is those environmentalists are probably the ones who are going to point out and come to your rescue at some point, before growth starts to impact what happens to your ditch. A ditch right doesn't do you any good if you go down to the headgate and there is no water flowing by it. So, it's to everybody's advantage to get in -- everybody getting involved in it. [development a part of the problem] I would think that the next big negative, of course, is the attractive nature of the Verde Valley and living here. Everybody is deeply concerned about the Big Chino and rightfully so. It does/it will impact the upper end of the river. But, I believe in the long run, we, the residents of the Verde Valley, are a greater potential threat to ourselves than Prescott or Prescott Valley could ever be or dream of being. Ultimately, we are the ones...the fate of the Verde River, as it flows through here, is to a large part in our hands. [max in Big Chino is about 30 cfs with the rest coming out from here] Ed points that out in his little piece talking about water usage and potential growth and so, yeah, the threat is growth. Once again, Arizona water law doesn't help you in that aspect. Groundwater is for the taking so the groundwater that eventually makes its way to the river gets intercepted by any growth that comes in here and eventually you look like the San Pedro. [direct connection between ground water in the VV and the flow of the Verde River?] Clearly. [How does drilling a well impact the flow?] It stands to reason that all water that flows, or most of the water that flows underground around here, eventually works its way towards the drainage points and the drainage

point...I mean there is a pitch point down here at the lower end of the Valley where the Verde passes through down there. Does some of it pool down in deep aquifers here -- sure. There are aquifers with bottoms to it where there is a certain level. But, I think we all have to understand that if you, a well strategically placed or non-strategically placed, however you want to look at it, is going to intercept water and is eventually going to come out on the surface somewhere. [Big Mamma - a famous underground river] I've heard rumors about that. You know maybe there is a certain validity to the fact that the Martin (?) limestone formation holds a huge, deep resource. I know there are studies being done on that. I know that they are working on the one for the Montezuma Well. I really anticipate seeing what they come up with on that because it's going to talk a little bit about some of those flow patterns and some of the resources and what keeps that little gem flowing all the time. But yeah, I've heard about the famous great, vast underground river coming from an unspecified source and going to someplace probably even less specified. [things like that persist because they're an attractive solution] Oh yeah. You can read some of these. Of course, I've done my history stuff on the river. There are all kinds of these older documents talking about lots of water -- there's lot of water -- the nature of the basin ranges that are millions of years old and have been collecting water since the basin ranges started forming 17 million years ago. That's a lot of water to soak in in a lot of places. So, sure there are a lot of potential resources but that doesn't mean you go drain them all. But we're talking about a river and a river is a very unique thing and it's becoming even more unique, especially in the desert. [threats of law, dewatering, growth] The law and growth in the Verde Valley, I would say are the two primary threats to the river and the law would address both if it could be drafted in a manner and asked without being watered down, I believe that there are probably some solutions. There are some management scenarios out there that we could look at as best practices. [The Nature Conservancy is doing that work] There is no easy solution to it. You know, something has to give - there's a give and a take in it. But, it's pretty obvious that under the current scenario eventually the river is going to be impacted. I think the solution to it is the same thing we're doing. You just get more and more willing partners in it. The difficult part is, here in Arizona, you have to deal with a state legislature that's controlled by a water guzzling monster and rural areas have constantly been under threat. That's the reason that one river after another goes dry. Again, it's a matter of getting people to buy into the value -- the economic value of a river is huge -- it's immense, it really is. [remove state law out of equation -- local solution] Oh, I think that's where all solutions come from ultimately. There are several local solutions I think. It's bits and pieces. There are little bits and chunks that you probably have to figure into it. The idea of putting together a water district, or something along those lines that has a greater control locally than state law -- or perhaps can overcome it. It has something within its charter that allows it to do some things others can't. It's been done. The Groundwater Management Act was full of things that usurped state law. You initiate an AMA and laws were thrown out of the books because now you have this whole overriding layer of jurisdiction there. I think that plays a big role and should be laid across -- I've talked to you about it before, I wouldn't hesitate a minute to advocate an AMA or something similar that lays across the entire river basin as a protective unit and everybody's involved in it -- Prescott is involved in it; even those areas outside of us; those areas that could impact it are the ones that need to be partners in it for a common cause. In other words, you could solve it on a local basis without having to turn over Arizona state water law by creating some other sort of jurisdictional mechanism that would override a lot of the pieces of the law that make it difficult for you to management it technically. So, I think that's...I've advocated that whole idea for a while and I still think that is something on the long line of solutions. I think there are all kinds of little solutions out there. I mean, we talk about it from a ditch standpoint. For instance, we are now looking, we're in the process today of spending $2500 doing some other measurement devices on the Eureka Ditch which will measure water going back into the river. We're working with The Nature Conservancy there. We're looking at being taught how to do a better job of what we do. We still water our lands the same way they were watered in 1893 so coming in here, if

somebody is looking for a way to spend some money, I know the Walton Foundation has been involved in this, but coming in here and doing some appraisals and feasibility studies on some other project. For instance, the Eureka Ditch starts up by the Yavapai Apache / Brinker (sp?) Sand Rock up there in the Hayfield Draw area. It comes down four miles. It's a seven mile ditch. It's four miles until the first user. That's a pretty ambitious system to bring water there. It's open. You can go down and look at some of the ones on the Verde Ditch -- it's huge. Actually, the Verde Ditch is the Verde River and then it spills back which opens the river back up again. So, somebody...and our diversion is pretty big. It captures a big portion of it. It seems to me that maybe it's time to look into pumping. Maybe it's time that the folks who have...to build a pump down there right at the first users or somebody there and pump it as subflow water. Maybe it's more effective to come in there and start to schedule the people who are on the ditch and you get water on Thursday and that's when you water. As it is right now, the water flows constantly through it and if you want water, you open your valve up and if you're growing turf and trees you probably only need to water once every two weeks at the most. And we have people water every few days; every week...you know, there are just more effective ways to water. And a lot of that works its way back. If they all withdraw water all the time, there is simply not enough water to do that. Somehow it works out. But those of us...I happen to live...it's funny, our ditch is run by seven people and six of the seven live at the very end of the ditch because it's the only way we can assure we get water down there. And, that's how it started too. I'm the president of Eureka Ditch right now.

Q2. Well, I think what you're doing is key and I think The Nature Conservancy is talking about some stuff like this. But, being able to understand that there is an economic value that when you take from the river, it's the same as debiting your checking account. Eventually you're going to have to find a way to put some bucks back in there and you can only overdraw the account so much before you lose it. And the cost of putting money, or in this case water, back into a river system, I believe, far exceeds the economic benefit of withdrawing from it. There is a tipping point where, sure you can still stay in sustainable balance, but once you go past that sustainable balance in the river, the cost of keeping that there becomes huge. In economic terms, you look at Prescott. O.K. so when they decided to run amuck over there, and they, Prescott, within the AMA allowed the platting of 30,000 homes in this real short period after they knew they were overdrawn on the aquifer...so, you build those 30,000 homes. What is the overall cost to put the water in to feed those so you sustain the system? Well, it's huge. Trust me. If broken up between each house, it becomes $10,000-$20,000 per home or more. So you start reaching a factor well, is this really right -- is this really practical -- does this make sense in the long term perspective? [sharing of costs over time with everyone] Yes, that's right. That's what they're doing in Prescott Valley. If I was in Prescott, I would say, I was here, everything was in balance and you guys came along. It's time in the Verde Valley that discussion comes into play. [theory behind impact fees; not common] Not effective and they don't address water. Here in Camp Verde they address things like parks and cars and they don't start talking about the larger issue.

Q3. Ag is growing and we're starting to see more wineries here but wineries are relatively low use water. If you're going to do agriculture, I would much prefer that they were growing vines out there. [facts and figures about water use] It's approximately 1/3 the amount of water, say to grow corn and probably 1/5 of alfalfa. I mean alfalfa is much more water intensive than corn. So, I mean, you take a piece of ag land, say, for instance Hausers over here who is alternating corn and alfalfa crops, it would be...you can figure that if it was planted in grapes it would be consistently 1/4 of the water use as an aggregate. I think it falls in that area. The homebuilding business which has taken a hiatus now because of the market conditions, that's obviously impacting water use here. I don't know of anybody that's building a water park or anything along those lines that specifically address a certain business. Nor am I aware of some businesses that are huge water users. Of course, mines are, but mining operations I

don't think take place here anymore. [surface level] From the surface level, I think the ag is the biggest pull on it. Probably no one would have come to the Verde Valley if there hadn't been a river running through it. They came here to grow.

Q4. Good question. It's kind of like you recognize them when they show up. Municipal water use is always a big impact. You can't convince me; there's still a lot of private land around here and that private land will eventually be developed. I don't see any other way around it, you know. So, I think that's probably, in the future, that's going to be the biggest thing. [association w/Verde River; way to tie sustainable economic development to the river?] Sure, there's a lot of good practices. It could be done. [how do you make money improving the health of the Verde River?] That's a good question, Doug. That's the million dollar question. How do you enjoy the river and enjoy a good economy? Probably for starters I think you attract the businesses that are the kind of businesses you want. You get a business in here that is a huge water user and I think you would have to discourage that. On the other hand, you would want to bring in some businesses that would be part of it -- river rafting trips. A lot of our agritourism...the idea we're sitting around here by the minute to find out whether or not the Town of Camp Verde gets an economic development grant for that Archeology Center...those sort of businesses into town. They don't use any more water than a restroom. They could bring tourism in here which, of course, has an impact on water. But, you start attracting the businesses you want and just tie and build the place in your own eyes and not try to make it a Phoenix -- it's not a Phoenix. It shouldn't be and I don't think anybody up here wants it to be. You would want ones that would have a low impact from a pollution standpoint. You wouldn't want ones that are using a lot of toxic chemicals or other things that might impact the health of the river from the standpoint of pollution.

Q5. You bet. Yeah. Some of these studies that we're doing...what's the cost of the river? What's it worth to you if it was to go away? And that's the big question I have for The Nature Conservancy. If you're talk about these measurements and you're going to put some figure on them, the figure that is missing is the 'x' factor which says, what's it worth when it's gone? [null hypothesis -- remove the river from the equation] It certainly takes away from what makes the Verde Valley the Verde Valley. It's a huge part of the identity of this value. I think it is; I think it's a lot of the reason some of us came here. It's one of the reasons I came here...because it had a river. When I first moved here I thought, "Wow, what a rare piece that is." I grew up in Phoenix where...I remember...I used to work for a news service down in the state legislature, I used to read accounts about the lazy Salt River rolling by around the turn -- territorial accounts of it, and it had to have been a really cool place to be. It was a respite to go to. Go hang out in the shade and play in the water. It has the effect of slowing down your lifestyle a little bit I think. [people who interact with the river] That's a good question. I wouldn't want to speculate on what that is but I would say that if that river dried up you'd have an almost universal negative reaction to that. It's kind of...you don't know what you've got until it’s gone. Getting people interested early on is always difficult in any issue. Once you start to say, you could have a problem. How many? I don't know; but I know a lot of people that love the fact that we have a river here and talk about it whether they're involved in it or not. You can go to a town council meeting. You ask that universal question and start talking about the river. There's nobody that gets up and says they don't care if the river is here or not. I've never heard anybody say that. So, that's the other side of the coin. I think universally, we all appreciate the fact that it's here. You know, we all have our busy lives and go about our ... [subliminal] It's very much on a subliminal basis.

Q6. Everybody. If you can make the case to anybody, they can become a partner - and I mean everybody and anybody. Potential partners are everybody who lives here. Salt River Project, comes to mind as being somebody you can put your finger on as far as being a partner. I think even people we

perceive as opponents - Prescott, Prescott Valley and the state legislators, all these people could become potential partners. You just have to be able to draw that connection to them and make them understand that they can participate in keeping the river flowing; keeping the system sustainable I think is probably the ultimate goal. [how do you see that benefit Prescott and PV?] Well, that's a good question. You know, they're partners. We're all part of Yavapai County. We all have to work together. They're perceived as being this giant water guzzling monster that sucks everything out of the top end of the river. It creates a division -- the idea of having Yavapai and Verde counties. Those whole things come into play. How do you make them a partner? You know, I think a large portion of the people over there want to keep the river. I think the vast majority of the citizens over there... A lot of them are very much influenced by some very conservative politics that probably has them electing some officials that are much more pro-development, pro-private property and probably less sensitive to the implications of that. But, the Yavapai Apaches are a huge partner in the health of this river. I think they get overlooked constantly. They are looking at some water rights and some of those are in-stream rights. That whole concept of the instream water right is...fish and animals have a right to water in that water as much as a human being has a right to that. This probably is another subject, but I was kind of ticked off that Prescott and Prescott Valley didn't file opposition to Prescott's application for the river dams because from my standpoint we've always had this idea that SRP had the rights to the flood water so when we start talking about mitigation issues for the upper part of the river, we've talked about...I've always looked at it as why don't you intercept some of that water up there and recharge an aquifer up there. A considerable amount of water falls on that watershed. A lot of it could be...the blockade has always been well, SRP has the flood water rights so they claim you're intercepting their flood waters. Well, guess what, they don't have the water right - they never did. It's never been established and it's never been perfected and I think this is showing that. The Yavapai Apaches have jumped on it but they're the only ones who did. You call Prescott and they say well, we really didn't think ...we talked to Munderloh and he says...well, Munderloh tells me they had it all drafted but a political decision was made. I just call them and say, 'you guys are a bunch of weanies over there holding hands and singing kum-ba-yah, which is a good thing. I'm glad to see you guys are altogether but it doesn't answer the ultimate question. We still don't have, as a region, we have some clear differences with what goes on at the lower end of the river and we have a really rare opportunity here to correct what I thought was a wrong based ... let's go follow state law and before they get there you could have talked about welfare, that's in the law. That's in the application process. You could have talked about a lot of things and I don't know if the Yavapai Apaches are ready to tow the line or if they're going to, as I have been told, there is a carrot and a stick being applied to them at the same time. The carrot is, of course, well maybe we can afford to O.K. a little bit more water to you guys than what we were previously talking about. As I was told, a new number has been thrown out on the table. So, when I think of a new number, I think they are saying, "Well, o.k., instead of 12,000 we could do that at 13,000 or something like that." And then, again, I think that's why we all have strange bedfellows in this whole situation. Sometimes you're partners; sometimes you're enemies. [That’s the whole political situation in Prescott and SRP to stop fighting] I just think there was an opportunity to reset the clock up here and go back and look at some other ways to do it so I'm kind of upset that didn't happen. That is a big piece of the puzzle. To a certain degree it's in play. If the Yavapai Apaches don't eventually accept the offer and withdraw their opposition. But, yeah, it's just one of those chances that some big players blew. Prescott and Prescott Valley, had they thrown in on this thing, would have just turned the whole thing upside down. It's kind of remarkable that this didn't come to the surface until after everybody was being friends again. But, that's the politics of it.

Q7. I think again it goes back to the legal framework. It's the longstanding Arizona mindset that it you're not growing...it's like a cancer kind of thing. It survives by growing; when it stops growing it dies.

Grow or die. I think as long as that attitude prevails that... there are certainly a number of examples of economies that are vibrant and carry on without having to enlarge themselves all the time. That's why I think that ideas like the sustainable ag - the idea of putting a Young's Farm kind of business in here; the idea of the wineries and stuff like that...you create a large enough economy eventually ...certainly it suffers when the economy is down but it doesn't suffer in the same way that 10,000 people laid off at a factory impacts the economy in Seattle, WA or something. The obstacles that get in the way prevent that sort of mindset from setting in. I think it's growing. The sustainable ag groups; the Verde Valley Wine Consortium. There are a couple of examples of it. I think Casey Rooney is doing a great job over there in Cottonwood in doing that Old Town enhancement down there and not just going for that whole box store thing that they went through. People are coming here. They've always come to Sedona but they've never really realized Cottonwood, Clarkdale and maybe some of them went to Jerome, but there was just this kind of fly-over or drive-through country over here and nobody went to them. So, you know, you package it and it becomes a place and a destination which of course, has its counter, because everybody wants to live here. I think changing that mind set is a huge thing so it's an educational process ultimately. [traditional mindset as a barrier] Growth is not bad...it is not inherently bad. Growth can be good as long as it's done in a manner that you understand what the consequences are and you're willing to make those tradeoffs and certain things, like you said, that ...as long as you don't sell yourself to the point where the cost exceeds the benefit.

Q8. Gosh, I would hope that the political leadership does. I would hope the political leadership, both locally and regionally, statewide, I would think those decision makers...ultimately they are the ones that are going to call the shots when you get right down to it. Any of these changes that have to be made, they are the ones who are going to have to make the changes. So, they would be the most...The other part is for the public to know that. I don't think there is anybody who shouldn't know it. Let's put it that way. And, I think the public, to some extent, should be appraised of, especially...you mean, you and a lot of people that are involved with this...there is some smart people out there who have been working on this idea for a while ... probably smarter people than you or I or collectively we can come up with some great ideas. I think letting whatever of those come, letting the public know about...that there are alternatives...that there is a cost that there are these other things that you may or may not have thought about, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. You can write it, you can bring it to them, you can drill it into them but you can't make them think about it. So, I mean, that's the difficulty any time you're trying to educate anybody from a small child to a grown adult. I run across that. Well, policy makers and public. I think organizations. I think anybody who is coming in here who wants to relocate in the Verde Valley. I think they should be appraised of an understanding of what the mindset is for people here in the Valley...Here, we've gone around and talked to a lot of people. We've come up with some...does your business really fit in here...can you make it fit in here...is there some way you can change the way you've done business or start thinking about some alternatives and how that works. I think that's important. This is what we want; this is what we collectively want to see here. If you think you can be that, then you come join the club and when the next guy shows up you can join us and tell them we'd like to see...that's what we'd like to see. [Chambers of Commerce] Sure. Anybody who is engaging them -- economic developers; Chambers of Commerce. [role of media in the Verde Valley] I think, overall, the media does pretty good. I would like to see...you know the local radio station here is very popular. I certainly wouldn't mind seeing them have some way to kind of bring some of that...that's a business model for a radio station is far different from a newspaper. We get to be a little more indepth than they do. We have newspapers, we have the radio, and a couple local channels but that's about it. [Why are you the only guy writing about this?] Well, because I started doing it before I got here so, in my newspaper, there are three of us, this is kind of my beat. So that's why I do it here. I don't know about the Red Rock News. I don't get a Red Rock News so I don't know what they have. I

know locally here they talk about local politics. I don't know. I do it just because it interests me. I think the public needs to know. It's my opinion that they should know what's in their back yard. They should understand what's going on. Everything doesn't happen at Town Hall and everything doesn't happen at the Yavapai County Board of Supervisors office or the state legislature. A lot of stuff happens because a lot of people give a dam. All these other different groups. It's a good idea to just let them know; to just keep that out there. People are talking about it. Throw it out once in a while. I try and mix the news up with a bunch of different things but I think those elements -- teach them about the history of it; give some greater appreciation - you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone..give them some greater appreciation; well then let me tell you what you had so you can understand where you're at today. [editorial and publishing support] Rochelle and Dan pretty much have a free reign. You know, we get assignments to do some stuff but the larger part, in my job description, is to develop the beat and I've developed that over six years and it's part of what I do. [people want to read what Steve Ayers writes] It's nice that they keep the door open. It goes to our publisher too. We all see that it's a common goal. It's a business. We live off our advertisers. If there is nobody left here advertising ... the river dries up and everything else dries up, what benefit did we do? [economic vitality depending on the Verde Valley]

Q9. I've lived in the Verde Valley for 19 years. [interaction with the river] I do recreate on the river. I'm not a boater. I would love to. I've got a couple of offers and I'm probably going to do that this year -- go do some kayaking but I fish every year. Yeah, I've been fishing on the river for...the otters are eating all of my fish but it doesn't stop me. I am a bad fisherman. I go down there because it's a nice place to sit in the shade. Do I go down to the river? I do. I was down there just last Friday with a friend of mine just sitting for lack of anything better. He was down there showing me the Verde River. He said, "Have you ever seen the Verde Ditch's take-out?" and I said no so we went over there and took some beers over and sat there and just enjoyed the river. It was great. I find it relaxing. [fishing] Generally bass and catfish. [recording otter eating a fish] I've seen a lot of them. I saw some beavers over here on Beaver Creek this last year. I get up in the morning when it's not cold and I run up on top of the White Hills and one morning about 8:30 in the morning, I walked out on W.D. Lane and there were three beavers there and I surprised them. They didn't hear me coming and I was standing there looking at them. Finally, they turned around and one of them wacked its' tail and...but that was nice to see that they were there. [Max Castillo; money to Salt River for renovations -- focused dollars for river project] Well, we could certainly do a lot of it with the ditches. We could certainly come in there and start to give us the infrastructure to change the way we do business. We could run ourselves as efficiently as Salt River Project runs their canals down there. We're no different. We're much smaller. We have a three mile portion of our main ditch. Could we line it; put in headgates; could we automate it; could we get our withdrawal from a pump; could we start .. and our responsibility, from a Eureka Ditch's standpoint is the main canal...the main ditch. There are these laterals...inefficiencies in the laterals. We have some people who have inefficiencies in the way that they water their lawns. Could you come in an actually buy water rights off of somebody and say, let's buy the water rights off of your property and you won't water it any more. Put in desert landscape. Is that an alternative? Sure it is. Some people might take that offer. [using money to purchase water rights] You would buy them off and transfer the water rights -- an instream flow right or however you wanted to go about it. In other words, you'd take them off our grid so that water is not coming but there's no real benefit of water use if you don't have a more efficient system than one that runs constantly. [legal structure of ditch system] The ditch company owns nothing. The ditch company is a delivery system. We deliver. We ensure the water is delivered to their property. The rights are pertinent to the property so the individual ditch owner owns the water right. Under Arizona transfer law, they can convey their water right. Water can be moved from one place to another. We'll get back to the river for a place to put it. So, you could buy off water rights and people could put desert landscaping on there. These are all options. These are ways to spend money

that...a probably expensive way because I don't know what the market rates for water rights are. Well, they sold for $20,000 an acre foot over there in Prescott when they sold and that's ...you calculate a three acre feet per acre of watered land, that could get expensive under that sort of notion. SRP says they're not worth that kind of money and perhaps they aren't. But, I think the Verde River watershed, I don't care where they're at... [how to define value of water; property value with and without ditch -- so far it's about 30% of value] Well, I used to figure it was worth $30,000/acre. There was a ballpark figure that somebody asked one time what's it worth -- $30,000/acre foot. When that sold for twenty over there, I thought, well is it really worth $60,000. What's it worth? Are you going to stop my transfer; or are you talking the intrinsic value on a piece of real estate? Are you selling it to somebody so they can take that water rights, sever and transfer and move it to a development they're going to build five homes...five water efficient homes/acre off of that and split it amongst those five. That might have a bigger value. Those are my observations from being on the ditch. Certainly education is a huge thing. How do you force somebody to learn? You know, I think it's like selling Coca Cola. I mean, you know you have to sell the fizz. It's a matter of marketing. You've got to market the Verde River as you would market anything else. And, whatever...there's got to be some creative ways to market the Verde River. I think once you market the Verde River, and the awareness level is there, teaching them about it is easier. I think they're more receptive to it because now they've already bought into the concept of. o.k. ... the river stays. Now what do I need to know about that to make sure it does? So that when you start bringing things like that to them, I think they absorb it. [branding campaign puts idea in heads -- identity of healthy Verde River] There are always lobbying efforts. Lobbyists do work. If you want to put some money in the state capitol, that's another place that money would be placed. That's your marketing campaign for the decision makers. You know, I think another thing is there's a universal, and I don't mean to pit rural against metropolitan, but I mean there's willing sympathizers in rural areas throughout the state that were in this coalition before. I think that's a wonderful spot to put it. And, I don't know where this plugs into the concept, but one of the things that I had considered to ...that Chip Davis and I talked about, we were just having a free flowing conversation about something, there is a wonderful piece written by an attorney here in Arizona Law Review talking about the 1980 Groundwater Management Act and what it did and how it came about. It was a unique piece of legislation that probably circumvented any principles of democracy that we hang on. It was done through a 'rump' group and it was done under a gun. I think some of the solutions down there have to be done under a gun ultimately....I think they're going to have to be done that way. I think what took place there was, essentially, they were locked in a room until...we don't get any CAP water until you come up with a way to address the groundwater issues here. So start talking and we'll let you out when you come up with a solution. And, I guarantee you, whatever solution you come up with we'll take to the legislature and they are all going to raise their hands, say yes, and it will be done. Essentially, that's the way it was done. I think that same sort of principle has to apply some place. Even as a journalist, where you want to have that great transparency, I think as a concerned citizen I look at is and say, "you know, I know how politics really works.' It's the nature of human beings. I would love to see that sort of brought back into the mix to fix the situation but I don't see any other way to do it but that because when you bring it into this public forum it's awkward, cumbersome, time consuming and often ends in a dead end street. But you need to have the hammer...somebody needs to have the hammer. The Department of the Interior said no water so ... I think that ultimately the solution we need is a legal solution as far as the framework...that's where it will happen. [concerns about the study] Explore wherever it takes you. I think you're going to find a lot of good ideas and a lot of good insights out there. No, it doesn't concern me at all. Is this going to be something that you guys want to publish or do a report on? [this is owned by the Walton Family Foundation at this point] Please express to the parties that you're dealing with that I would be interested in doing that and working with it in the context and spirit within which it's being done. [discussion w/Margaret Bowman; not averse to covering the work being done; VRBP and

other relationships; concerned about "Big Daddy" with big money or diversion from work being done] They have identified something here that we've all identified for a while and see it as a chance well, maybe there is one place we can help. I think they're committed to that which is great. But I would like, at some point to kind of get this, to some extent. I've always thought about this over-encompassing and sit down with Dan and Rochelle and them and do a Verde River issue talking about different aspects of it and kind of do a special piece on it sometime in the future. That's a big player. There are now more and more people buying in; more and more things are happening; more and more money is coming this direction. Money is beginning to flow up river -- serious money. I think the floodgates haven't opened yet but I think we're kind of on that cusp at this point. There comes a point and maybe this is part of the preliminary work...but there is a point now where you've got to really start to raise up the awareness level of the public as a whole.

Interviewee: Jim BishopInterviewer: Doug Von GausigDate: 2-1-11

Q1. The most significant factor is that, for the first time, there are serious efforts to improve the health of the Verde River. Another very significant factor is that when I first came here there were appliances and junk and messes in the river. The river is actually its health. The second thing is on the education side. There is intelligent work being done about the river so that people, in newspapers and other places, I have a giant file on the Verde and I'm seeing the signs of recognition that the river is the heart of the valley. But I do think that another significant factor juxtaposing that is that there are a lot of people that still have no idea about the river at all. I mean I come from a town where the mayor a couple of years said, "The Verde? Gee, that's 12 miles from here. That's got nothing to do with us." But they are juxtaposing. One is the education is increasing among the younger people; and at the same time the ignorance is actually still very much a factor and it I think it's the demographics of the valley, so therefore, education is like changing the horizon - the receding horizon. You think you've got people understanding the relationships with nature and then all of a sudden you find people that really don't care. How do you make people care? The other significant factors are that in a larger vein, the importance of rivers in this area is being underscored by the fact that people are now realizing that rivers in Arizona have dried up -- that we've lost rivers and we can lose a river. As a departed expert once said, "If they knew what was here, they'd know what could be lost." So, the notion of 'losing' is suddenly more in discussion than it was 25 years ago. They've really begun to realize that the hand of man, there's a difference between progress and growth...so, there is, it's a hodgepodge of factors. I've talked to some legislators who really don't even believe in public lands. I mean, they don't understand why we, as public people, are even concerned about the river. So, there's this kind of duality - it's a 'yes and no' -- compared to 25 years ago, 'yes', but still... The arrival of people from cities. The idea that you can push a button and nature does what you want. We do a lot of work where I live among young people about the river and a lot of reading and a lot of writing about it. As far as the other factors are concerned, it’s reality vs. mythology, is where I'm coming from. That would be my main point. The mythos is that the river is always going to be here. It's been here for 13 million years and you just can't hurt a river like that. It's got all these streams; and it's got all these things and Kit Carson used to cook on the river and the beaver came back. The idea that we ran across some highway issues too. Just let it be -- let nature be - if she dies well it's meant to happen. It's got nothing to do with us. And the myth, the other side of the myth, is that we can do anything about it. Maybe the power of self interest and greed overwhelms the power of conscientiousness and mindfulness. It's like a Shakespearean play, you know. There are a lot of factors at work here. And some are supportive of the other and others are in conflict with the other and we run into it all the time. There are flashes of hope. You know, if you have

no hope there is no hope. But, I think recognition of the fragility of this river and its importance to all of us, in economic terms as well as biological terms, is something that is beginning. It's more in evidence now than ever before. I don't know why but it is. Last summer when there was a couple of drops left in the San Pedro and Sean did a nice piece about it. I've been writing about it for a long time. But, you know, it's happening all over the country. A hundred years ago, most of the people lived on farms and they knew about the relationship with nature and the wind and everything. Now most of the people live in cities and so when they come here...we do programs at Keep Sedona Beautiful trying to raise peoples' awareness. It's a never ending battle. So, does it have to be that ... Sam Johnson says, "If you don't see the handwriting on the wall it's because your back is up against it." That is what we ran into in the Carter administration. But you can't do that in water. There is no such thing in water. If you lose your oil, you can burn things. But if this river goes, economics, biology and the history, and the fact that the Yavapai Apache have water rights here...there are implications that are much larger than just our own thirst. But, basically there is a discovery now that there are economic benefits of this river that was never here before and that is to say the birding festival attracts people; they spend money...so all of a sudden the linkage is being made that people who care about birds and 24 different species of fish are not just left-wing nuts. There is an economic benefit in preserving them because that creates jobs. People come. I watch the license plates that come from many, many different states just for the river -- just for the springtime; just to be here. I am a volunteer at Red Rock State Park and that's going to be gone and so the whole economic force of the river is going to be even more important if we lose the park. You know, people are coming from all over the place. This is a very, very unusual...and what is the most important blood stream -- it's the Verde -- economically, not just environmentally. So the thing is, I think we've made progress in terms of environment vs. growth. It's kind of merged into something else. We can actually; I used to write speeches in Carter. You can have progress and there are no trade-offs. If you protect the river, you're not going to lose jobs. If you protect the river, you might gain jobs. So, in a way, the conventional wisdom is turning over and it's becoming something different than it was. Look at all the business people that support the birding festival. They are coming from all over the place. It's getting back in touch...you know, we are nature. We're not just visitors. Anyway, I'm babbling a little bit but those are the things on my mind.

Q2. Well, the first thing that people should know is the Verde River is a true desert river. The confluence is Big Chino/Little Chino so it's not like rivers like the San Juan that is fed by the mountains. It's a very special desert river. It's very different. Much different than any other river. So, the presence of that and the knowledge of its relationship to humans...what...why do we need the Verde River? I think that basically, in terms of the public, that there is still a lot of work to be done. Dan Campbell has done some great work and other people have. But the importance of the Verde River needs to be understood I think. The fact that 3 million people down in the valley are beneficiaries of it. It's the haunting of that mayor, who said, "The Verde River...that's 12 miles from here...it has nothing to do with us." I mean that is really important and nobody challenged him. So, here's what I'm getting at. It used to be environmentally people would say if we don't do this, we're going to be dead. They threatened people instead of winning people over, they actually created anomalies. But this way, it's an open invitation to celebrate that it's here and I think that may be what... When Babbitt started doing his Verde River Days in 1990 and all the guys -- John Parsons and everybody was pulling stuff out of the river. It's a constant journey here. I mean the Hudson just came back. Around the country people are -- the rivers are our brothers. But now we're paying attention to them a little bit more. That's why...it's not just to save the fish. It is us. It's taking advantage. It's not Manichean. If you have come to this valley from a great big building in Chicago with your door man and water coming out of everywhere, you have no knowledge about where things come from. It's unbelievable. You know, heat comes from the stove; food comes from the store. We're back to Aldo Leopold and that's where we are. For a lot of

people who come here, they don't know where things come from so the value of the river, I think, has never truly been explored and really appreciated and the miracle of the river -- that it's even here at all. And all the rivers that feed it -- Oak Creek. There are several people that I've gotten to know around here, you know Deena Greenwood, I love here. She can do that most beautiful conversations about the magic of the water and how the birds come because some of these feeding rivers are as wild and wonderful as they ever were. They've got this bird store now so I see her. They opened up this bird store in Sedona [Jay's Bird Barn] and she's out doing birding. But she has a perspective on this too which would be the economic perspective. It's that people are paying money now to do things. They weren't doing that before. So, the economic value and the environmental value of this river have come together into one force. There has been a marriage of the two whereas when I came 25 years ago, they were definitely bifurcated. You know, you're an enviro and I'm a growth guy. Somehow we're maturing about the river here. Because of the changing populations and because a lot of the people I worked with are not here anymore, and then newer people coming - the re-education process has to be continued all the time. We've lost Neil Smith. We've got some great people that mentored me when I first came here in the 80s about everything here. So now I'm 75 and I'm supposed to know everything and all the things they knew. But we come at it in a totally different way than they did. It's not good guys vs. bad guys anymore. That's not what it is. The river runners. Taking people down...there is a lot of people making money taking people down the river. A quick anecdote, 1989 March, there was a seat in the kayak and the Russians...there was an exchange program then... Do you remember the exchange program? We sent boatmen to someplace [Soviets] and they came down here. I'll never forget this and it's part of where I'm coming from. Somebody said, "Hey, we've got a seat so meet me down there." These guys, these Russians were so excited about the river and right out of nowhere a bald eagle got in right over the water. And, I thought, this is America. And they were all half drunk drinking beer and wine and throwing themselves into the water. At the end of the day we went back to, there was a little bit of a gas station where the Casino is now, and everybody ...people shooting off guns and fireworks. The Russians said, "What's going on?" Ed Abby had died that day. I will never forget it because of the way the Russians reacted to the power of the river -- the power of their imagination. Now, can that be quantified and taken on...sure it can. People are looking for it -- they're looking for authenticity and I think that's what drawing better economics here. Better economics. People, even though the internet is overwhelming everybody, there is also a huge desire for more authenticity. Little tiny restaurants are popping up out of nowhere and cooking their own food and ...think locally, act locally is going to happen. That is going to help the river. [authenticity] The thing is, in researching a lot of the writing I've been doing this; the food in Sedona comes mostly from Chile -- 15,000 miles away. Some of the chefs are growing their own food and people are asking where the food comes from. So, where does the water come from? When people start asking about what's around them, what's happening? We have a farmers market and people are lined up buying stuff. There is a tremendous anecdote along the way. So, I do volunteer work at the festival just partly because I'm doing research on why people are doing exactly what we're talking about. There's a good egg man from down here in Cottonwood and he sold a bunch of eggs to an Englishman who was all dressed up and looked like a character out of a Peter Seller's movie. He came in to complain about the eggs. My friend Dennis said, "What's wrong with them?" He said, "They are yellow." And Dennis said, "Well, that's fresh egg." And the guy said, "We don't get eggs like this in the supermarkets. I don't like your eggs." The freshness is a (unclear) actually - the freshness of people realizing that we are surrounded by an incredible asset and it's not just environmental, it's also economic. Specifically, you know river trips, lecture series; there is teaching the Verde in the schools and colleges now so that there is money flowing into education. There are all kinds of people that come through here that nobody even keeps track of and they're the hikers and the bikers and all those kinds of people. They're here. They're coming from all around -- Finland and amazing places. The Verde River has become an international attraction since I've been here 25 years. People

come from other countries to see it. [Elderhostel ; not here now] Where did we love it? [Deena used to have it] It did a lot of Elderhostel in the 90s out of Flagstaff but I... I loved it. But then some new owners took over and they wanted to make money.

Q4. See above.

Q5. The information and facts are geology. I think that we need a lot more information about geology and (unclear). In other words, what is the Verde River in terms of its history and potential economic development is a very, very good question. Time was that the Japanese were going to build timeshares on the river and there were all kinds of big projects. I don't think that they're there anymore. That's a really good question and I do think that people could make more money from that river if they realized ...it's almost like organizing supporters of the river or get the Chamber of Commerce. You know what I would do, I would get the Chambers of Commerce on board and start using the internet a lot and I don't know what they don't do that up in Sedona. They ought to. But there is ways to get word out about the preciousness of this river that didn't even exist. So, how does that entrepreneur make money doing this -- is that the level we're on? Chip had a meeting of all the mayors in his office, maybe you were there a couple years back, and they're all talking to Chip about what he's going to do about water, and Tom Beauty (?) was there and Chip said, maybe you ought to talk to him about the river. What do they have, 40 miles or river rights? I think that's something that's fascinating. I think to know that there's a living tribe on the river. I mean there are all sorts of ...and then, but you don't want to destroy the place in order to save it. That's the dilemma. Economic development has got to be non-invasive and I think we're in to story, film, education and tours and really intelligent tours with intelligent people and attracting wonderful dabblings of people. You could have, like we have down at the Lacey Ranch. We used to have people coming from all over the place and learning and relishing and people could sell hats and jackets and coats. I don't want anything to happen to that river that's called...sustainable economic development is education that's sustainable. [bring groups of people here to learn] Arizona is becoming a place that you've got to wonder why anybody would want to move here at all. They would come here for the river. The word gets around that this valley is really thinking about their grandchildren...this means that we're thinking about our grandchildren. We want our grandchildren to come here and have the river the way it is right now. Now, that sounds emotional; but it is. But, it's possible to do it.

Q6. That's really not my baily-wick, you know. I would say local teachers. I would say local teachers and local politicians and businesses and Chambers of Commerce. Those are three very obvious -- but I don't think the Chambers are doing anything. Up in Sedona, they're still selling vortexes and the woman who was selling them went back to Virginia and took them with her. They're not even here. But everybody is painting everything purple now. So, there is that energy -- the mystique of the river. Steve Ayers did that great research; Kit Carson (?) on the river. There is history about this river that we're just learning about right now.

Q7. The barrier is that it can't happen overnight. There are going to have to be building blocks. There are going to have to be programs. I'd say it's not Walmart -- you can go down there to get anything and five minutes later you've got it. What I'm saying is that this is the beginning of a major effort. It's going to take time but you're going to have to get people who are out there -- people who feel the same way you do, right, and they're out there and they have to be ... It's almost like the Friends of the Verde. I mean it's almost like creating a new organization that is filled with businessmen and biologists and all kind of other people -- just constantly learning more. We don't even know, I don't think, we don't know much about water resources in this valley. Do we? Do we really know anything about water? [gross

idea about what's going on] When I was in Maryland and we couldn't figure out where water was coming from, they just put a freeze on everything until they found it. But there's a tremendous amount of knowledge about the ecosystems here - ecosystem education; the relationship between the animals and the people. I think this is an educational opportunity to find these linkages and bring in people that know things and not sell fear. Sell hope. So many times in things like this, you know, we run into, "Well, if we don't do this the river will go dry." But, that isn't the point. The point is, what is the river doing for us now that we don't want to lose. I'm a recovering Druid.

Q8. Major organizations in the world and in the country and specific committees and all sorts of nonprofits are looking for stories of the people getting back in touch with nature. This could become world famous, absolutely. Europeans, Dutch ...the Dutch love this place. I have friends run galleries and they keep telling me, Bishop come over. The (unclear) women are here today. These are the wives of the oligarchs and they come in and spend $5,000 on a shirt. These are incredible women with ...... and they drop more money around. But there's an international possibility for this river which has never been explored in my opinion. This is where tour groups...you could get a tour group. You go to Holland and line up tours for the next 15 years to come over here and make it really special - not just the thing ... (unclear; birding?; concerns about capacity to handle more people] Supporters, I guess, are anybody that ...they have got to be people that are not ideological. You know, they have to be pragmatic people for one thing and they've got to know what they're doing.

Q9. [Bishop in the valley since 1984] I have a huge file on the Verde Valley. It doesn't have Dan's wonderful video of the Verde Valley that he did. I wish that could have been on international television -- the one that the Nature Conservancy did. That was well done. [SRP has done some]

[focused dollars] I'd work really hard on reconciliation between this mountain and the other side of the mountain. There has got to be a way to have reconciliation -- Wordsworth called it "reconciliation of opposites." I think until that is resolved, I mean, I don't know why it would cost money to do that, but it might. You might have to hired people; I don't know... But, it seems to me that it's push and pull with Prescott and over here and people have tried to make a marriage between the two...you have and you keep running into these walls right now. I talked to a fellow whose brother is a legislator up there and somebody said, "You know, state parks put $240 million into the general fund. What are your ideas about where the dollars are going to come from to replace that?" He said, I haven't thought about that. So, that's what we're running into. How do you make people think; how do you do it -- fear of regulation, education, morality, religion. I think the Verde is a real test of the whole American experiment. Because everything we do and all the history of what happened to our rivers, the way we loved our rivers, and now when the rivers caught on fire in the 60s and that started the environmental movement. It's poets and millions of words. I just edited a book called, "Our Sacred Garden" by Adelle Seronde. What's really required from now on is that people really have to fall in love with the planet. That's the only thing that's going to save us right now. We've got to do that and we have to get the notion that a river, like the Verde, is a sacred river. It's a holy river that is irreplaceable and its value has been under-estimated in my opinion. I think we could do a lot to increase the value of the river -- the biology of it; the history of Arizona is the Verde River and the beaver and the otter are back. You know, here's this place that's so old and I think … I really wouldn't know what to do with $5m short of bribery and I don't think that would work. We're in this balancing act. Gee, if you spent that on advertisements it might hurt the river. So, how do you do this to benefit the river rather than exploiting it? That is the hard part or the short stick part of the discussion we're having.

[additional interviews] Deena. John Parsons. He's back in town for the winter; he's living up in Idaho now. I'll send his email because he was one of the first in the 80s who started talking about this. He persuaded Babbitt about the values of the thing. I would interview the head of the Chamber of Commerce or a bank. I would interview some kids, some young people who use the river. Go out to Dead Horse and find some kids and talk to them about the river and what they think about the river. They're the ones who will benefit from it.

[concerns about study] No. I think it's depoliticized. I like it very much because it is pure and it's ...no. I hope it leads to action, but, of course, that's the million dollar question. What is action in this case? How do you define action? You know, I still go back to this constant Aldo Leopold question about this. There is so much that people don't know about what gives them life and now that we're overwhelmed by ideological things. One of the great moments in my life is, I covered the Muskee (sp?) campaign for Newsweek when he was running for Vice President. He was giving a talk about Maine and he said there's nobody downstream from us anymore. I took that and ran a career with that. There's nobody downstream anymore -- it's here. But then, turn it around and say, so what's the river going to be like in 15 years? That would be a question that I would add to this. Ask people what they see -- what will the river like in 15 years. [what would happen if Verde did dry up?] So, where are we without the Verde River? That's something to put to the Chambers of Commerce and people like that. [what changes?] Well, we eradicate our biological history that goes back way before anybody came here. We lose an Indian tribe. We would lose our history; fish... [impact on economy] Then we would really find out how economically fruitful that river really is. Hotels, motels, boatmen, tourists, birders, the educators, all the people that use the river for all kinds of rivers...canoers, recreation -- we haven't even talked about recreation and how recreation on the river could be expanded. [why would we live here w/o river?] That's a tricky question because what if they don't know it's here to begin with? So, if the people, if I knew that this river was gone I'd probably seriously think of going back to Maine or something because to me it's the lifeblood of everything. It's our lifeblood. It's what we talk about. We tell river stories. We go down the rivers and talk about...those Russians. I'll never forget those Russians when they saw that eagle coming in. This was America to them -- this was freedom. The Verde has freedom and it's Stegnar. In Stegnar's earlier writings about water, river and how we all came to be here. How the Spanish discovered water and gave it a name. We'll lose our connection with Europe...with Spain. It would be devastating. You might as well drop a bomb on the whole place. I think it's an asset that is not fully appreciated and understood yet and I think that may be really the number 1 - explain value...first of all, understand it. There is more value here than anybody realizes and one of the functions of this effort here is to pull it together so the value is obvious. That becomes good news. It's work. It's strategy. It becomes (?). It becomes program work. Politicians will get awards. There will be scholarship that will be formed; all kinds of benefits ...it's almost unlimited. And they're bringing the rivers back up in Maine where I went to college (unclear) and people are just so excited they're driving around looking at the river; taking the dams outs. I think it appeals to the deepest past of people, as far as this river. The deepest part, knowing that thousands of years ago people were here and we don't even know how many thousands of years. I've got six grandchildren -- two in China. I've got two boys and we always go down to the river. They say, 'let's go to the river.' My son has a business over there. He went to Middlebury and got fluent in Mandarin a long time ago. He got a computer business and a masters at Johns Hopkins and was hired by a Chinese company in Beijing to be on their executive board. He says we shouldn't get too excited about China overwhelming us because they have terrific problems and the Economist, the only magazine I read, is looking for people to write about China because it's almost impossible to summarize. I was there twice in the Carter administration and (unclear) communistic -- people disappear. My son was a translator for CBS in the Teneman (sp?) Square massacre. He won't even talk about it. He said that so many people, his entire class -- he was getting a masters degree at

the University of Bejing, right before that May 1, a CBS executive came in and asked if anyone could speak English and could speak Chinese. He was captured after about a week but the numbers of people exterminated nobody could even count them.

Interviewee: Anita MacFarlaneInterviewer: Doug Von GausigDate: 2-8-11

Q1. Well, I guess some of threats as far as losing water from the river...it's so important to keep a strong flow in the Verde River and I'm not too sure, I know at one time when we were looking at the Verde River there was some concern about the impact of of 4-wheel drive vehicles driving across and in the river. [anything positive?] I think that there are more and more people that are really aware of the Verde River and are working to take care of it is something. I think more and more some of the towns have recognized the significance of the river. [cause of dewatering] Part of it is during the summer when the ditches take water out of the river. I think that's one of the things that we have learned. And there is also this significant possibility of pumping out of the area up around Prescott that affects the flow...produces some of the flow; the Big Chino.

Q2. It seems to me that there is still a lot of work being done on the Verde as far as where the actual flow comes from. I know there have been some studies already and I'm not...since I haven't been attending the WAC, I'm not sure now but I think it's still a possibility that we need more study there. [understanding the hydrology] Yes. Understanding the hydrology is still, I think, upper most.

Q3. You know I really don't know. I think the Verde River, the Verde Valley Birding and Nature Festival, certainly is one thing that's had a strong influence on people learning more about the river and being more willing to care for it and speak up for it. [the festival as an economic development activity?] I do because it brings people, not only from the Verde Valley, but from other areas in Phoenix and also from out of the United States even -- from other parts of the country and out of the United States. I know they've had people from France, at one time. So, the knowledge about it is widespread. [more publicity this year; Sibley (sp?) - worrying about capacity to handle] It's a nice problem to have Barbie's development of the birding trail is certainly going to be another positive for the area because even though we have our Audubon book about the Verde Valley, the birding trail should be in addition to that and something that would be easily found by people and followed, I think...from what I've heard. I don't know exactly what she's doing but it sounds like a really great thing. [Doug tells about repeat visitor from Martha's Vineyard to the birding festival...now a whole family with him each year]

Q4. It would really be nice, in conjunction with the Dead Horse Ranch State Park, an environmental center where we could have a lot of information about the river and have it onsite all the time rather than just during the birding festival. So, I think support of Dead Horse Ranch State Park and Red Rock State Park are certainly very important for this area. Oak Creek runs through Red Rock State Park and is a tributary of the Verde and then, of course, Dead Horse is right there on the Verde. So, I think that's very important to continue to support those two parks. [environmental center?] I think it would be partly educational and then partly a space where we could bring researchers in to do research on the river and have their research then available for people to see -- to read and for other researchers to use because there really isn't anything like that in this area. [brings to mind the Alpine Center, etc.] And develop it into truly a riparian study area where you can have information about cottonwoods. Which

reminds me, I just saw that NAU is going to be having a program on cottonwoods the 23rd or 25th of this month -- all kinds of discussion about cottonwoods. That type of thing, you know, could also be stored there. Many of the people are from NAU but maybe something like that could be available with computerization at least online for people that wanted to go in and spend some time there.

Q5. I don't know. I'm trying to think about what types of things you might be able to bring in. [reminds her of her own travels around the world and what might be transferred and done here w/respect to ecosystem] I've been mainly on birding tours. There hasn't been a lot other than the establishment of lodges -- some lodging that would actually focus more on information or providing people information about the whole Verde River system -- not just the birds but the wildlife and the vegetation...the culture of the area because that's an interesting area. This whole Verde Valley really was a farming culture originally. There is a lot there. We still have agriculture over there. So, something maybe that would do that type of thing would be ...because I don't think there is much like that. There are B&Bs but none of them actually focus primarily on the river and the river experience.

Q6. Well, certainly we've fun into a lot of road blocks put out by the ditch companies. They really, to my knowledge, have never been very willing to cooperate with any of these other activities that we've tried to put together. [why?] I think they feel threatened. I think they feel maybe that somehow people want to take away their water rights. I certainly would not want to do that. I would like to have them be more willing to cooperate and think about how they use their water and when they use it and how it might benefit the river. And there again, that comes to changing cultural values and that's a very, very slow process when you try to do something like that. The education center might help...trying to get the cities and towns, maybe, to be more aware of what's happening and how they might be able to educate their citizens on the river and the importance. And, the economic benefit that it brings to the area...such as bringing tourists in; photographers, not necessarily just bird photographers, but people that want to photograph the river. I'm just not sure how that could happen.

Q7. Well, I would think certainly the city councils in Clarkdale and Cottonwood would because they are the closest to the river, and even Camp Verde would be interested in looking at the study to see how they might improve their economies by some of the things that people have suggested. The Parks Department and probably Audubon Arizona, the group that has been nominating and establishing the important bird areas. Tice and (?) from Tucson. Tice is primarily for this area. He [other person] is more for southern Arizona. So, Tice is really the person.

Q8. Anita moved to the Verde Valley in Sept. 1976. [interaction w/river] Mainly by birding there and by, when I was on the city council, I certainly was active in the Water Advisory Committee in trying to promote the protection of the river. I was the representative from the city [Sedona] from the time that the Water Advisory Council started -- the very beginning of WAC when we were all glaring across the table at each other. [who brought everyone together?] Actually, I think Chip did. I was really pleased that he did that. He tried very hard to keep us all...and eventually I think we got to the point where we actually were working together although we still had concerns about what the other side was doing. [Doug - still co-chair; herding cats and getting studies done] And, that's the main thing because we knew so little about the hydrology in the Verde Valley especially and so if we can get some good information about that it will certainly help us make decisions in the future -- I'm hoping. [now WAC knows the groundwater is flowing toward the river; keen awareness that wells in the Verde Valley eventually impact the river; previous mythology about aquifers that fill the river and will never drain] Well, in spite of the fact that people were very angry with SRP, I think it certainly opened a lot of discussion and really opened peoples' eyes to what was actually happening -- where that water was coming from and that a

lot of it was surface water. [SRP has played important and honorable role] I think they've tried to be. That's been my...now I know some people were very unhappy with them but my observation was that they were just really trying to bring the science and talk about keeping water in the river; it's what they want because it's coming down to them. [even environmentally minded dislike SRP because they're suspect about taking water] They just want to keep it running through here and not drying up up there.

[focused dollars] Wow I don't know what I would do with that money. It would be nice to get the Corps of Engineers to really pay some attention to northern Arizona and take a look at what is happening as far as what people are doing in the river and in Oak Creek, the tributary, to maybe decrease the problems such as sedimentation and runoff from agriculture and some things like that. It would really be nice if they'd come up here and actually do something. The Corps has been much more workable down along the Salt. They've been much more reasonable than they used to be but it's hard since their headquarters is in California, for this area, to get them to think about other areas outside of the Salt River. [something more than 404 process] I don't think the 404 process really works very well. They don't have enough people up here to really look at what's happening and it would be nice if we could get some kind of a project where they would really look at it. I don't know what Max would like to do there on the greenway, but maybe it would be clearing out some of the tamarisk and the non-natives -- invasives. I don't know. Are there areas that need to be replanted -- reforested; some of that area where in the 50s SRP cut down all the big trees. Are there some areas down there that could stand to be reforested? I haven't been down there for a while. [river is in good shape; best in 30 years; long enough between floods for trees to withstand moderate floods] I'm thinking maybe acquiring that area that the energy company (Tapco) used to have up there. That would be a really good acquisition to be put into federal hands or, not the state. Yeah...the greenway. That was such a beautiful area and then, of course, the flood in the 80s really took a lot out of there. I haven't been in there for a while. [best gallery anywhere] It might be nice to have that in public hands rather than private. The last time I was up there you couldn't get in there. They had it all fenced off. Freeport Mac owns a lot of that. It's getting eroded and you know it would be nice to get in and fix it up a little bit where all that sand has eroded and you've got these deep gullies and so forth...do some real remedial work in there.

[additional interviews] I assume you've interviewed some of the ditch people because I think they're important. And, the Game and Fish people and maybe some folks from the hatchery. And, of course, the forest service. Did you interview (?) the recreation/wildlife person? [who in Sedona?] Well, Brent Bitz. Roger, of course, is not available a lot of the time now. The last I heard he was going off for some type of training. He is doing bird surveys for somebody. [inventory and monitoring for proposed wind farm up by Williams]

[concerns about the study] The one caution is that you just don't make it broad enough with enough variety in the people. That's hard to do sometimes and I assume you've interviewed paddlers groups and people that use the river like that group that used to be off of Coffee Pot where they did river trips. There are no bicycle trails over there are there? [east side of Dead Horse] Those people and the horsemen's groups. National Parks that manages Tavasci. There are so many. I don't know where they are on their study any more. Do you -- on Tavasci? [series of meetings]

Doug interviewing Stanley Bullard, Camp Verde Water System office, Feb. 23, 2011, Stacey present, recording okay, get approval before quoting

Q 1: What do you think are the most significant factors influencing the health of the Verde River system?

One of the negative issues with health of the Verde River is all of the vegetation that is in the Verde River...cottonwoods that have taken over. It's impeding the flow, not that it makes a lot of difference. It seems that if you cleaned it out and had more of a channel, you would have more viable usage of the river. I can speak for the area between here and Cottonwood, and most of it has to do with...Beaver Creek comes in here, so at that confluence and west to about, past I-17, there's a lot of vegetation in that area. Seems that for a healthy river, you'd want flow not impeded for usage and then you'd have the ability to have people come in there for boating and fishing and playing in the river to use it. (Does Camp Verde Water System interact with river?) For the most part, we are ground water. We have 6 wells that are shut down, or 7 wells, due to arsenic and most of those wells are in the area under the influence of surface water. Then we have one well that we currently use that is under the influence of surface water area and that's primarily for a smaller system. So we don't have many choices in that particular area. Big well is the one out by Coury. We have 3 wells out there and they seem to be very healthy and good quality water. Don't have to mitigate the arsenic in that one. Not yet. It's expensive.

Q2: Do you feel there are things about the Verde River that we need to understand better? If so, what are they?I think that there's more regulation associated with the Verde River than really...I think that's a problem because the US wants it to be a scenic river, and so they want to put restrictions on the use of it. Yet the US Fish and Wildlife want to put restrictions on it for riparian habitat. So you have all of these legal influences that seem to be things that most people don't understand. We need to understand the regulatory process and who actually has the authority and what statutes does that authority actually give them teeth to enforce. It's kind of like everybody wants a piece of everything and they have regulations to do that but nobody coordinates their activities. We don't understand the hydrology of the system well enough. I don't think that the hydrology of the system is well understood by anybody...geologists, hydrologists...because it's so massive. You take a look at the basin of the Verde Valley. It's so huge. We're down in the lower end of this gigantic basin that roughly about 4,000 feet deep and you've got water everywhere. But how does water get in there. Is it old water? Is it new water by the fractures bringing it in. I suspect that there is a portion of both. I don't think that the Verde River itself totally influences the Verde formation. I think it has a tendency to contribute to it but not really influence those areas. So when you have the sub-flow of the river out there, people drill wells into the shallow part and it's going to draw that river down to practically nothing. Then, the deeper water is influenced by something else like run off in Flagstaff. There's studies that show that from Wyoming to Upper Verde, there's an isotope that was followed and popped out up there which indicates that there is some kind of underflow from outside of our state that actually flows into the Verde formation in the lower elements. There is the theory of the Big Mama. We have maps showing where the hydrologist that's working on that thought that the Big Mama was. It flows opposite the direction of the river. Most of the drawings that he did, it's in the opposite direction. The Verde River flows down toward the south. This kind of flows toward the north and up toward the east. That must be come kind of...but again that's a theory by one hydrologist. He's spent his life doing nothing but following these activities. He died several years ago. Earl Huggins. He did water witching. He used instruments in flying over the area and actually tracked the depressions and the change in atmosphere and he came up with this chart. He had this all gone through the area. Sounds like a good theory. But then again, that's what it is. I drilled a well about 800 feet deep and we ended up having to cut it up, block it off up at about 700 fee because the deeper we went, the more arsenic we received. We had to mitigate that.

Q 3: To your knowledge what, if any, economic development activities have recently been, or are currently being, conducted that directly relate to the Verde River? Who is involved in these activities?

There is an indication that because of the agriculture and things that go on here, people are drawn an area is really green for the most part of the year. I think the river contributes to...you have all your ditch companies drawing off of the river, but that helps agriculture and keeping the area green. Most of it flows back into the river downstream somewhere and they other part precipitates up into the air. I think there is some value to saying that there is an economic use for the river as a whole coming in here and making people desire to be in the area where there is such beauty. (If the river were to dry up, what would happen to the Verde Valley economically?) I would say a lot of horticulture, agriculture, those types of things would probably find somewhere else to go. Wouldn't have to worry about studying the river much any more. So the studies would go. If it dries up, what value is there in the valley here? Everybody lives here basically and bedroom community it would become. There wouldn't be a whole lot of industry for those people that were here. Clear Creek and all of that water coming in would still probably keep the river going. I doubt seriously that you could kill that one because it's pretty massive coming in. Just above Clear Creek though, there could be some issues and you'd slow it down. I don't think you'd ever be able to...if you did, it would be a very difficult area to keep bringing people in and expanding and developing the area. We could dry up the river if some regulations take place and ??? doesn't have any authority in stopping this thing, the drilling of wells. The more wells, the more straws going into the aquifer or alluvium, the faster that's going to be drawn out and the more the river is going to dwindle down to nothing. I'm not really concerned about the wells up in the headwater from our perspective. From your perspective, that would be a different story. See we have 3 tributaries that come in down here. You've got Clear Creek, Oak Creek, and Beaver Creek. So those all flow. And Beaver, even though it's dry, it's probably doing a flow so low that it's creating some additional water going into the river

Q 4: What potential economic development opportunities exist which are associated with the Verde River system in the Verde Valley? I would think so. Again as we know, the study it what water can you use. Who's going to have it downstream? But I would think that if we're able to create a reservoir of some sort that the whole Verde Valley community--Sedona, Cottonwood, Clarkdale, Jerome, Camp Verde...something that would draw off of the runoffs that are excessive and kind of fill the reservoir. Then you would start generating an environment for entertainment and people could start using that and then they could also use it to supplement the activities when you have a drought situation. (This is something that we've been talking about in the Central Yavapai Highlands Water Resource Management study...as off main stem storage of flood water essentially.) So in that kind of case, you'd create some kind of a large reservoir that was off the main stem of the Verde, but stored a whole bunch of water. SRP would be spilling anyway. It would help them later on, because you'd be able to keep the river flowing in times of drought. I guess because it's downstream, I don't think it's the optimal but down around Childs and ??? , we have those mountainous cliffs. Hopefully, you could build up, put a dam across there and build back up. That's far down to really benefit us. Possible you could create something up around the wilderness area, north of ???? and that area where maybe you could catch some of that or pump it back up there. It would be a shorter distance and still be able to maybe influence the river. Maybe could do it at Box Canyon, north of Clarkdale.

Q 5: In your opinion, what information and facts are there that could be used to promote and advance the connection between the Verde River and potential sustainable economic development in the Verde Valley? already covered

Q 6 Who are important potential supporters in advancing the connection between a healthy Verde River and sustainable economic development?

You would have to get citizens involved. I think that without their support, it's probably not going to happen. They actually influence the regulators, the town councils, mayors, and those people. If they had that influence on there, then there is a possibility that something could come out of it. If you have people out there that really don't care, they're not really concerned about community. They're here to enjoy it, but not interested. That's not going to make a whole lot of difference. I think there are people who are engaged in economic development who are not paying attention to the river. Although the river shows as a nice commodity for the communities, I don't think that they are focusing on it as economic benefit because if they were, you'd have activities being used along the river. Parks being set up so that people could enjoy being by the river. People can access the river in Camp Verde at ??? bridge, ??? bridge. Then they can go anywhere basically in no-man's land. There's all kinds of places. It's pretty much, the whole river, even though people say that they own the area below in the flood zone or basically that area. They really don't have any right to prevent anybody from going through there. They get to pay taxes on it but they don't have any authority to stop anybody, because it's a navigable river.

Q 7: What or who do you see as current or potential barriers to advancing sustainable economic development in connection with a healthy river( for example, laws and regulations, property rights, institutional like ditch companies, water companies, historic uses, etc.), changing cultural values? (If response is that “there are too many,” ask for top 3-5…interviewer’s discretion)I think there are definitely legal barriers because you have USDOR and the federal Fish and Wildlife service that pretty much said no more water's going to be taken out of the river. It's going to impair the habitat of the riparian area and then just that by itself, if you go into that, you can't do any kind of development because you're going to have the federal government coming in and saying you don't have the authority to do that. You can't be messing with our little fishes, birds, and animals that are protected. So that's one way. I think the other barriers are, there's complacency in the the residents of the communities. They enjoy it, but they're not really on fire for protecting it. Why is a good question. I think it's just because they're too busy with their lives and not realizing what they're losing. (Does Camp Verde identify itself with the river?) It identifies itself as the beginning of the Verde Valley, but one of the assets that likes to say is that we have a river flowing through the valley. We don't know if there's any strong advertising that the Verde River is a place to go and enjoy life. Many people don't even know where it is. It's not advertised. Do we have a river here? I've been here for 20 years. I didn't know that.

Q 8: Who do you think might be interested in using the findings of this Verde River Economic Development Study, including the results of interviews such as this one?The town councils, the mayors of the towns. It would be very important for them to see the results of this study because then they can create a vision for the future and help move the town in that direction and then even coordinate with the other communities who are affected by the development of the river for economic purposes. Developers would be an area that could be influenced to take and make use of the river creating parks in the developments, creating recreation areas that would enhance community development or involvement. Obviously, the citizens themselves. Getting them involved in some kind of forum that would help them to understand what the needs and the future of the river could be...positive, negative.

Been in Verde Valley for 52 years, 54 years including grandpa; doesn't interact with the Verde River other than enjoying the beauty of the vegetation it creates. When you some down in the summertime, you just see this green mass of beauty. That is pretty much a selling point for anybody that comes down the hill there. I don't use it...kids swim, fish

Given $5M to improve health of Verde River?First off you'd have to get Crements?? to do that and that would take all the $5M. I'd try to clean up the river edges and toward the flow of the river so that it wouldn't be impeded by a lot of unnecessary vegetation. It just soaks up the water and gives off a lot of oxygen. Make a green house. Then we'd have lots of oxygen here. You should probably advertise where access points are. Give directions so that people could get to river. More people would be interested if they could get to it. If you could create kind of like parks that would encourage to take their families there to enjoy, not only the river, but the associated access to the river and fishing points. I know we'll at least stock the river all the time but it would be nice to know where those fishing places are. People could actually go there and catch a fish. People fish for trout, catfish.

Who else to interview?Town manager, get them to buy on to economic development and there's a whole spread of people that can be reached by moving that direction. By making influence with the councils, regulartory decision makers, and it goes way beyond just local.

Any concerns about the study?I don't really have any problems with the study. I think that the biggest hurdle is going to be the regulatory agencies and dealing with them to get any kind of development done. It's just simply too many rules, too many regulations, and gonna take a whole lot of money to get through the process.

Add anything? No, good luck

Interviewee: Jodie and Dexter Allen; Marshall WhitmireInterviewer: Jane WhitmireDate: 3-17-11

Q1. Dex: Well, there are two factors. One is the turbidity that is added to the river -- that the ditches add to the river. It never really clears up any more like it used to. The other one is invasive plants that are affecting the wildlife habitat. Turbidity is basically adding mud and silt to the river which is not really good for fish habitat. The ditch returns water that's always muddy. In the Verde Valley, the river never has a chance to clear up like it should. [During winter they are turned off] The ditches typically shut down for maintenance purposes. Jodie: I think the most important part of the health of the Verde River is the effects that the valley has and the amount of water that the valley uses and the lack of the water that's going down the river now compared to years ago. We're constantly draining on it and that's an important factor to me. And the amount of pollution that the river takes on just by going through all these private properties and public places and all this stuff that it goes through here in the valley.

Q2. Dex: I guess I'm coming from my knowledge of the river which is 60 miles of river below the Verde Valley which is affected by what she [Jodie] is talking about. Most rivers that have wilderness or wild and scenic typically that is above the communities, not below the communities. So that has a tremendous effect on water quality. You wouldn't believe the amount of trash that we pack out -- tires, refrigerators, propane bottles and any type of item that floats -- mostly plastic bottles - Gatorade bottles, beer bottles. A tremendous amount of trash coming out of this Verde Valley that affects the health and the scenic value of the river. [Was a management plan in place to address this issue?] Yes, there is a comprehensive river management plan for wild and scenic management. It doesn't necessarily say "pick up trash." But, it's done automatically as we go down there. We do 10-12 trips any

more from 6-10 days trips depending on which stretch of the river we're doing. So, I just find that being there's a community above the pristine parts of the river and we just do a lot of work to keep it pristine and if we didn't go down there and do that, you wouldn't believe what the river would look like. [Volunteer groups] Within the Verde Valley there are a few groups -- The Verde Greenway; the Stewards of Public Lands will do a few canoe trips and will try to clean up the river corridor in the private land areas. So they try but there is still a lot that floats down that they don't get. [% of flooding and washing] Most of it. You know, some of it is carelessness. We see a lot of those little styrofoam bait containers, for instance, which is something that maybe people just throw in the river when they are done fishing. Or beer bottles and things of that nature that are probably just careless recreational use. [Whitmire asks: Does the community or political leaders need to know about the assault on the river by this? - What do we need to know that we don’t know?] There obviously needs to be an educational campaign on that kind of thing. I've always thought all along that there are some things that we find -- like tractor tires and things, that aren't necessarily being thrown in the river on purpose. They're just thing that people leave along the shoreline on their property and don't realize it's ready to be washed away. So everything needs to be up high. Again, I think we need to educate the folks on what goes on every time it floods. Before it floods or just keeps that zone from the shoreline -- whether it's a pasture or a backyard - to just keep things away so that they won't flush away. [Easy way for some to get rid of things] We see that when we do float the White Bridge to Beasley. We do see people -- let's say all their excess hay or things they just want to pile up next to the river. They cut all their fruit trees and pile it up next to the river and wait for it to be washed away which I think they consider to be organics. It's not a big deal. But old straw from horse barns and things like that; that adds a lot of nitrates to the water and so. But there are things going on that people need to be educated on that are affecting the water quality. Jodie: We're kind of flip-flopping. Before I was talking about the pollution going down and here what I think I want people to understand is the weeds and invasive species that are down there and they plant things that they can't contain - like the pampas grass. They...oh, pampas grass; beautiful pampas grass. Isn't that lovely. The seeds go on the wind and it ends up being in the river corridor and -- we've got a bunch of pampas grass that nobody planted down there. Originally, people call it 'bamboo' – Arundo donax, was planted as a river stabilization and, of course, that is not valid anymore because it doesn't stabilize it. When it breaks off in big chunks it digs away and deposits the root systems en masse further down. So, I'd like people to have a better understanding to watch out what they plant -- plant native when they can and more of an education feature like that. [How does education manifest itself; what does it look like?] Well, right now the Verde NRCD does have an ed center director and she is a wonderful retired science teacher and she's been going into the classrooms and teaching them Project WET features -- 4th grade; but she's also teaching Kindergarten to 6th grade as well - not just on Project WET. She is going to the Boys and Girls Club and teaching them "Leave No Trace" which I'm really excited about and we need to teach these younger conservationists when they're young and perhaps it will help roll upstream to their parents because there has been a gap in the learning system it seems like. When we were young, we were all taught how to respect the natural environment and there were all the little ditties on TV, you know, that the forest service put in there and what not. I don't know if it was because of the expense or what, but there is a whole group of folks that don't realize that they should be using a fire pan. I mean, it's not that they're being deliberately ignorant, they just don't know so a lot of this -- maybe some of it is just out of sheer ignorance and some of it is just out of bad taste. But as far as how do I think that should...I don't know. I think we should hit both adult and childhood education. Dex: That's somewhat being addressed a little bit now. There's a draft plan coming out, I won't name the consulting agency, but the Verde Greenway is working with all the agencies -- forest service, Salt River Project, private landowners, and that's going to be part of the component of that draft plan. In that draft plan is all about addressing invasive weeds along the river all the way from the lake to the headwaters. There are some of the agencies who are now already working

on invasive plants and that plan does call for an educational program and they are talking about everything -- outreach in the schools; papers and magazines; whatever there is out there. [Whitmire: propagation of invasive plants. How many violations does it take, for example, to create a problem? For example: educate 90% effectively and they comply; other 10% do not] This plan is more addressing the removal of them. Not necessarily what Jodie was talking about -- plant native. Years ago, a lot of the tamarisks and things that we have along the river were planted as an ornamental or a bank stabilization. So, like I say, this plan is more to do with the removal of it to keep it from becoming a dominant species on the river to maintain that natural river habitat -- it's remediation not prevention. Again, that's part of the educational component -- to let people know that there is such a thing as an invasive plant and that has an issue with taking over the rest of the corridor. That's part of what I do when I go down the river. In the fall season for four months we are removing tamarisk and other invasive species like (arundo?). Now, we haven't found that much arundo -- like twelve clumps of it. But the tamarisk is everywhere. Jodie: And the, I don't know, as far as the 10%, then that leaves 10% of the seeds that will continue to go down the stream and will cause havoc and more and more dollars. So, perhaps there does need to be some kind of violation annex that needs to be... Dex: Well, you can't force people to do things on their own private property. If they decide that they do not want the tamarisk removed on their property or whatever the invasive plant may be, you can't make them do it. Now, we're using a herbicide treatment to remove it. Some people do not want chemicals used on their property. So, this campaign that they have going on right now is trying to get all the agencies on the same page with how to remove it and what crews to hire and all the different things we're talking about. There has been someone that's been hired to knock on doors and try to get the private landowners on board. But you cannot be 100% successful. Some landowners will not want their land messed with - whether it's invasive plants or whatever. [process that educates] So, as this process goes on with that particular draft plan for the river, sooner or later everybody is going to be contacted and somewhat educated on what is going on and what they can do to help. They are working in the inner city trying to approach the irrigation ditches to start removing invasives along the ditches. Jodie: But that's futile. We need a lot more work on that. We're just getting started. [invitations to talk with irrigation ditches] The NRCD wrote a letter to the ditches offering them herbicide and a certified sprayer to come and spray some of their weeds. We got a little bit of response but the Eureka Ditch is actually the only one that took us up on it -- which is nice. But this is all a work in progress. Everybody is going to get on board, maybe, eventually and we'll ... The ditches are a weird deal!

Q3. Jodie: Richard Lynch has that little flotilla that he does on the river and he does it behind that wine place. It's great for the wineries, it's great for the Verde and I know that there's people that bring them down there to show them -- look at the beautiful Verde River and I like that. It's hard for Richard, I'm sure, to make ends meet with that but I'd really like to see somebody from the college teach some classes on the river. You know, teach water boating on the river; teach different things like that. I think that would be a good thing. Dex: Well, I haven't seen a lot of projects going on. You know I was happy to see that they actually developed some sort of park and river access at the Black Bridge. I think we need more of that. In the past, the Prescott Forest had developed several river access points. There are not very many of them on the opposite side of the river - the Coconino side. I think enhancing some of the river access points and developing price and recreational use in the Verde for people to take care of it and enjoy it, I think more of that needs to happen. I know there are some people talking about doing some development things to enhance the river. I've been talking about this for years and I think some of the Greenway agencies are thinking about it, but my thing is the irrigation ditches and how their headgates operate and what their headgates are made of. They are piles of old concrete; some of them are old cars. One of the other ditches gets in there every year and makes a new earthen dam. They could either make permanent structures, not necessarily concrete. I'm thinking of things like giant

boulders the size of Volkswagens and buses that will make a man-made rapid that will send water down the ditch and, at the same time, create a recreational use so kayakers can get past these dams. Those are things that need to happen and I think it sort of enhancing the recreational value of the river. The Verde River Canyon Railroad is expanding every year and that is a wonderful thing. I've floated that section of river a few times and it's neat to see the train go by. We've also ridden the train several times but that is a unique way of people to see the river and enjoy it. And we need to find other ways to do that. She mentioned Richard Lynch, you know, Sedona Adventures, that have their little commercial float thing. That's another way for people to enjoy the river for recreational use. [access to the river; experiencing the river] The access points that are there aren't necessarily treated well. This same thing happens with some trail heads and things. There are just some groups of the public that would rather shoot things up than preserve them. That's a sad thing to see areas be developed and then be destroyed. [many of similar concerns] There are quite a few of the access points that were developed -- they ended up removing the toilets because they were being heavily vandalized so there needs to be some sort of way to get to the 'yahoos', or whatever you want to call them, who destroy things -- that there's a reason for those things to be put in there. They are for people to enjoy the river - not destroy them. [economics - Whitmire - Do you see any value; or do you see, in the future, the need for a fee system for accessing the river?] Not the way it is right now. [if there were restrooms?] That's a really hard question. The few fee systems that have been created aren't holding up very well. The Red Rock Pass is a pretty good example -- always in the courts. So, when you start up with a fee system, most people are opposed to it. Although, the money that comes from some, whether it be registration for fee program for entering an area, some of that money actually goes back to the area it's being controlled by and some of it just goes to the Washington 'Kitty.' [regulation has to be in place to support the restrooms] It's hard to get the public to buy that. I actually think in some locations that would be a worthy thing to do. Dead Horse State Park is an example of a fee to get into that park. It's a pretty nice place. There are a lot of events run there. They've got a great trail system for enjoying the river. So yes, I could see some locations that would be a pretty viable way to get around having the funds to maintain things. But then there are other areas where they are going to get so much rebuttal that it's going to be hard to pull it off.

Q4. Jodie: Well, I had mentioned having classrooms on the Verde River and I do think education is the key. In reference to improving access to the Verde River and what not, perhaps the cities or whatever need to go in together and have more people working those access points to keep them clean and keep people at bay. When they don't see an official person very often, they get more... [lack of integration - boundaries of jobs; everybody's job] Yes, it is. Dex: They [forest service] just don't have enough boots on the ground so they can't be everywhere and they can't maintain everything. They actually don't have the funds that everybody thinks they have. I really don't know how to answer that particular question because we've already talked about river access points and things. But I think there is a lot of need for what Jodie said -- the communities to get together and think about a river enhancement -- whatever that enhancement may be. You know, the value of recreational use. Maintain the scenic value of the river; do what they can to keep the flows from being diminished. I think there are a lot of things that can be done for conservation that would just have people use less water. The ditches are an example. When Jodie -- actually The Nature Conservancy is working with the Eureka Ditch and they are the only ones that took them up on this. I've got to put my hands out to the Eureka Ditch that they seem to be willing to be forward thinkers. They are doing something that everybody resists. I mean, nobody wants a meter on their well and I don't want one on mine either. But the Eureka Ditch has agreed to have a meter at the headgate and a meter at the ditch return so they're actually going to be able to gauge how much water that ditch uses. I think every ditch has an acre feet allotment. I don't know what it is but nobody knows what they truly use. So, if we can figure out how to figure what they use and get it down

to what they're actually supposed to use and that might require some other kind of system of... I don't know if you've lived in Phoenix. But they've got this thing where you sign up for the water and it shows up and you've got to be there to use it. [irrigation system schedule] That's what I'm talking about -- some type of schedule could really make a difference on water conservation and ... Again, there is education and we have our neighbors that irrigate twice as much as Jodie and I do. It's like there is a lake for three days. So there is...we need to just get together and make smart decisions on what river enhancement would be. Water flow is part of it. River rafts is part of it. [Eureka Ditch and monitoring/metering; trust in sharing the information] Jodie: You're right. It is a matter of trust. Jodie: I think we could do more to enhance the river in tourism. I'm not quite sure where to go with that. [community role in that; willingness to invest when support system is there] Dex: Dead Horse State Park is the only park that is living off the river -- that's all built around and enjoying the river. When they developed a small access point at the Black Bridge...you know, I mentioned this years ago when they first started doing that that it needed to be more of a park -- not just a river access -- some ramadas, a nice big grassy lawn, some place for the kids to play and you get more people enjoying the river for the right reasons. Jodie: Cottonwood has done a wonderful job with their park system on the opposite of Dead Horse. [volume of people to monitor] Whitmire -- Do you have an opinion about why the Black Bridge Park, and it's really just an access point, has not been more developed? Dex: I think when we really first started thinking about putting a park in there, some of the people that live associated next to it didn't want that kind of park. None of them wanted it. They just didn't want that many people up and down the shoreline fishing across the river from their house. They felt it would have been a big intrusion on their life to have a park that would invite that many people. Jodie: To their defense, I know the man that owns that corner property. It's a beautiful, large corner property and he has got kind of a barrier up there because people don't stay in the park part, they go in his part. They put dirty diapers, they carry their trash in there. You know, I can't blame him. [maintenance plan and funds to enforce it may offset such fears and experiences]; Dex: The status quo now is when you develop something of that nature, there are problems with trash and things that come with it.

Q5. Dex: I think everybody needs to know they can lose it. One of the bumper stickers out there is, "Love it or lose it." Jodie: Well, that is one thing but what is that book that talks about property...where you donate the property...an easement. There is a lot of variety in easements. There is variety in easements if you do it for educational purposes and things for the population to be able to see. Well then people are going to have to get on it. But, there are several different easements that you can give that property away and get the value and the tax revenue coming from that but people can't get on it. It just preserves that part of the... So, yeah, I think that there should be a lot more information on that. I had a book on it and I gave it to somebody. I've been kicking myself ever since. A lot of people don't realize that [the conservation easement] option is out there. It was a lawyer that wrote it. I've got it written down at home. I need to get it. It was extraordinary information about what people can do. "Saving Family Property" or something like that. If people knew more about that, I think that would be a real good thing. How do you teach them other than knocking on their doors, I just don't know. If we have an article in the paper or something like that - I don't know. [do you think people are aware of the river, sources, tributaries, uses, impact?] Dex: I don't think the majority of people realize where all the water comes from. Being this community is in the river corridor, most of them are, it is the lifeblood of their community. Jodie: And, I don't think they realize that. Dex: That's why the Fort was built to protect that -- good ol' cowboy and Indian days, and that's why these ditches are here is from the early development of the settlers. I don't think a lot of people realize that. It's sort of like what Jodie was saying about easements, the Verde Greenway is a concept that ... and I'm going to go back to Dead Horse State Park, Tuzigoot, that was the greenway. And that's all been quite expanded and now they're taking it all the way to Beasley Flats. You've heard of the Rockin' River Ranch and the Roadrunner Ranch

and then, across from there, recently the Shield Ranch has been purchased and behind the development of Bashas there, the Simington land, was also purchased -- again, part of the greenway. So, I think The Nature Conservancy is doing a great job of appropriating some of those lands and then later donating it to either the state, like the Greenway. From what I've heard from The Nature Conservancy, the Shields Land will eventually go to the Coconino Forest [Prescott]. That land at Rockin' River and Shields Ranch is all surrounded by forest service land which gives an opportunity for all those agencies to actually work on the enhancement of the shoreline for wildlife habitat, invasive plants and whatever it might be. So those easements that Jodie was talking about has a lot to do with economic development and being able to do something with riverfront property to protect it for whatever -- wildlife habitat, or whatever. The land that's below the freeway bridge (I17), there is a big chunk of it that has been set aside by Salt River Project, I believe, for a wildlife preserve sort of thing. So, some of that is going on. And that's what the greenway concept is -- to be able to get those easements and be able to actually, as a collective agency and towns, actually do projects that would enhance the river corridor. [quiet projects; why?] Jodie: It does seem rather quietly done and I'm not quite sure why. Dex: I just think it's wise to probably not let the cat out of the bag. I know most of the land that has been purchased is typically through The Nature Conservancy. That's what they do is buy up land to protect them. [Whitmire: area below freeway that SRP controls; accommodation for Willow Flycatcher so they had to acquire and protect.] Dex: You know I mentioned the Greenway is working on an invasive weed program, you might say all the way from the headwaters to the lake. All the different agencies have been at those meetings. Salt River Project has been there and they had mentioned that that land was set aside for the Willow Flycatcher. When we talk about removing tamarisk, then some people have an issue with that being a tamarisk -- a habitat for them [flycatcher]. It appears that Willow Flycatchers actually prefer tamarisk. But from what we've got from the studies at this point, we have new data coming in on it, and from going to some of the seminars I've gone to, is the bark beetle that is taking up the tamarisk in other states, the birds don't have the tamarisk to go back to so they just go to the willows. They are Willow Flycatchers so I guess... When the tamarisk is removed, they will go back to their natural habitat. Like I say, I do a lot of tamarisk removal and that's pretty much what our biologists and people are saying. We are required to consult with the wildlife service and they have to sign off on what we're doing. Some of them, you know, have some issues with Flycatchers and others are o.k. with us removing it as long as we do it in the proper season when they're not nesting. So, it's an interesting thing when you're thinking about wildlife habitat area and the plants that go along with that. Well, I tell you, I spend a lot of time on the lower parts of this river going to the Montezal (sp?) Wilderness and the wild sections of the river and it is the most unbelievable wildlife habitat that goes through the tip of the Sonoran Desert. You get down there where all the saguaro start growing and it is a green zone going through the desert. The wildlife that we see down there is unbelievable. It is like an oasis in the desert. And that's what I always worry about when they talk about no more water in the Verde is, you know, people here are going to create that. They're the ones spoiling it. But I always think they're spoiling 60 miles of the most pristine wildlife habitat that we have in the state. There's a lot more to the river than your back yard. Jodie: If I might interject here. As far as having something else coming into the Verde Valley, you know we had the UofA and since we're doing so many projects here trying to get rid of all the invasive species and we've got...everybody is doing something that’s very healthy for the Verde River, or we're trying to get this going, it seems to me that we would be a perfect spot for UofA and for different colleges to have, as a training and a teaching environment, Prescott College comes here a couple time a year and they do projects with Dex on the river. I'd love to see -- I don't know what kind of an economic development that would be, but it would certainly seem to me that we could tap into some of those developments from the universities to see what we're doing and see what the potential is. [research and learning facility?] Yes. Like UofA, we've got the county extension over here. That's kind of what I'm thinking. [a consortium of universities] Absolutely. Because there are a lot of people doing the same type of study

that is being applied here. We're getting our information from around the country and I would think that would be information that anyone could use. Dex: Yes, the classes I tap into are watershed resource classes. So, it's young people who actually care about how to manage rivers. So, it's a win-win situation for me. I get a lot of young, strong kids to help me saw down trees and they learn a little bit about river management. Jodie: And their instructor sits down with them and gets feedback from these guys. It is a win-win. [interview w/high school students and their lack of knowledge/understanding of the river] They have no conservation ethic. That is alarming. [Whitmire - there are no signs on the bridges identifying it as the Verde River; First part of public education is signing the river and/or tributaries/streams] Dex: You use the word 'unique' and that is really true. It's not just that this goes through the desert, but it's where the water comes from. You mentioned that earlier. Every tributary that comes of this Mogollon Rim is a wilderness area in itself -- West Clear Creek, Beaver Creek Wilderness and Munds Wilderness which is Dry Beaver Creek. The Mogollon Rim, itself, and those tributaries are unique -- where the water comes from. We happen to be living in a very beautiful, wonderful place with this rim that has water coming off of it. [conversations over time to help people understand things -- cartoon concepts/graphics with more technical information] Jodie: I like that idea.

Q6. Jodie: Well, I guess there again I was thinking about universities or some kind of a learning group of people doing a study here. I would think that would be good. [where do people get studies already done; conduct studies -- what is the place for this?] That's pretty much why I'm suggesting it because the UofA, I don't know if you've been up there or not, but it's all about properties of range land and all that kind of thing -- the Western environment, the cows and all that. That's wonderful. There's not a darn place here that we can go learn about what we're taking...water samples, there have been water samples all over the Verde River but there is nothing to show us anything. What is in this water sample and what is in that water sample and what's in between. What is going on here? If we had some kind of a center that would be good. Dex: They do water sampling. They're doing it for ADEQ. But, where do you get that information. What is the water quality really like? Jodie: And that's just one example. We've got all kinds of other sediments and river flow -- path of least resistance, etc. Dex: To answer your question about different agencies, you know we've already mentioned it and it's the communities, it's the towns, it's pride in the river. We need to remunerate that quite a lot that without this river, where would we be? Some of that is already going on with the Greenway and I mentioned this consulting agency that's got all these different agencies together and they're trying to get ahold of private land owners and get everybody to understand the resources along the river and what their private property has for resources. This has to do with waking people up to invasive plants along the river which I think, if we did get a really good program going of removing tamarisk and things, it would also somewhat enhance the river flow. They pretty much drink up as much as a willow does. The willow is natural in the riparian zone and the willow is not. That can make a big difference in the flows in the long run by removing tamarisk from the river corridor. But some of that's already going on with agencies that are getting together and that greenway invasive weed thing is an example of two forests, Salt River Project, Fish and Game and the towns and communities getting together and talking about how to deal with invasive plants along the river and how to get ahold of private land holders. But there are still the towns and communities themselves that need to play a part in it rather than hire somebody else to get it done. There needs to be community involvement or they don't have value to it. [regional effort] Like I say, there are agencies that work together with each other. You know, Stewards of Public Land is a really good example of trying to take care of what the forest service can't do on their own. Like I said, they don't have enough boots on the ground to keep up with that much dump sites that are going on. So it's wonderful that those kinds of agencies develop and help. There might be a need for more agencies like that. Not necessarily to go out and pick up dump sites, but volunteer groups that are willing to go help with projects -- boots on the ground. [pride - as a person and contribution to larger

environment; newcomers to Verde Valley who don't have opportunities to understand why the valley is what/why it is] [Whitmire - educative and research facility model] One of the Nile River research agencies had a mile of the Nile River. It was probably 40-50 feet long and they could charge it with water at various flow levels and they could then see what would happen and anticipate what would happen in the back channels of the Nile in certain agricultural lands so they could adjust the amount of release from the high Aswan Dam, etc. Now, it was a little bit primitive. Most of Egypt just doesn't have a lot of polish. But this was a long river model with water in it. It would seem to me that if you had that kind of a model for the whole Verde Watershed with the major tributaries, it could be very interesting and very powerful from an educational standpoint. Jodie: It could be very powerful and I like the idea. And, putting the ditches in it, as well, a huge model like that. And, have it open to the public so they can look it. I appreciate the fact that you were trying to get the grant to have the archaeology thing here. I'm sorry that didn't happen. But I'd sure like to see something like that go on for and about the Verde River. They are still going forward with whatever. But it was a disappointment that they didn't get that. We need to have education going there. We were on the Blue Danube and there was a huge model of the old bridge -- old museum in Kosovo, yes -- it showed this huge bridge and the bridge is no longer there but the Roman's had built it. Anyway, it was 'how things worked' and it was pretty fascinating. Dex: It was basically a museum but you learned about the Danube by visiting that museum. Yes, exactly. [environmental museum] Dex: I think the Chamber can also do a little more on the river associated to the communities. Jodie: Well, they can only do what they're given to do. I think our Chamber looks pretty cool but... Dex: It's a tourist stop and beginners come in or first place people visit in the town. Jodie: Like your little book idea; I really like that idea. Dex: You mention cultural sites and all the way down the lake -- there are just cultural sites all the way down the river and some of them are 2,000 year old Hohokam and some are 600 year old Sinaguan but there has been a lot of cultures over the years that are doing the same thing we're doing -- surviving off the river. Jodie: And let's not make those same mistakes.

Q7. Dex: Well, I think we've already talked about what some of their strengths are and it is the regulations that come from a lot of different agencies whether it be Fish and Wildlife Service or you can't build a bridge because there is a flycatcher living there. It's just hard to really put a finger on that question. Jodie: I don't really think that some of these are barriers, they're just untapped opportunities. Like the ditch companies. I'm tickled to death to be on the ditch and I know that all of us who are, are, and those that are not are the first to criticize and I've heard a lot of that from our friends in the upper valley. "Oh, you're on the ditch." But, getting better regulations, knowing, we already talked about it, what is coming out, going in and getting those ditches mandated and what not, I don't think that's a barrier, I just think it's an opportunity that hasn't been... Dex: There are all kinds of restraints that will come up in process of getting something done but you don't know that stumbling block is there until you approach it. Like, for example, we talked about the Black Bridge. You asked that question and the answer was the people in the area didn't want it. So, there's no way of really knowing for sure that where you're going to end up - what your stumbling blocks are going to be. [reminded of engaging people in processes vs. telling them what is going to happen]

Q8. Dex: The Verde Watershed Association, the Greenway, even the forest service. Jodie: Well, and any kind of economic ... Dex: You know, we mentioned it before -- the communities. Jodie: Casey is the...didn't I read he is doing the economic work...isn't he employed by Cottonwood? I would think that all the little towns here would benefit from knowing what was in this -- whether they know it or not. Dex: Pretty much any agency that is involved with the river. This could be beneficial for them to find out what the results are. [we consider this as baseline research to establish next steps] Des: Are the different people you are interviewing from different phases of the community -- like Jodie and I are sort

of river people and there are others who obviously are not. So, do you kind of get a pretty good example of different types? [90 interviews; diverse group -- businesses, ranchers, citizens on the street, high school students, teachers, neighbors and friends] Like I said, Jodie and I are not highly educated but we know a lot about the river. [education comes in different forms; that's why we wanted to get a diverse population to interview and come as close as we could to come up with some good information] Jodie: That sounds like a very well rounded plan. Whitmire: Data base of scientific studies that have been done. That is another piece of the research process. [scientific studies have and are being done; however, studies that ask people about the river have not] Whitmire: There are two aspects of it -- what do they know and what do they think? I think in some cases they know depressingly little. Jodie: I like the fact that you are saying the science is done. We have that component. I don't know how to find any of that out. I can dig through the computer and spend some time finding it but I don't know what to ask. [accessibility] Exactly. Well, what does that mean to us - and if you don't know what it's telling you, you don't know what to ask it is what I'm saying or how...

Q9. Dex: I think you have to be careful making things a focal point. I'm going to use something as an example -- Fossil Creek. They decommissioned it, which was a wonderful thing; restored the fish habitat and all that. But there was a lot of advertisement which attracted a lot of people and now the place, the resource, can't handle that many people. There is a limit to what you can do for advertising and making everything known to come and enjoy. You want people to be educated and you want them to know about it, enjoy it and use it. But, responsible users keep things open and useable. I'm not saying Fossil Creek will be shut down, but they're in the process of making a comprehensive plan to manage it as wild and scenic, there are always four or five alternatives that are thrown out there and one alternative can be way more restrictive than the next. So, I'm just saying, you've got to be careful for just how far you go with that. Whitmire: Have you found the Fossil Creek scenario that has developed a big surprise? Dex: Not really. Some of the different agencies that were involved in the original ...approaching APS about shutting down the plants and restoring the water, had their own concept of what the creek looked like. I saw some articles in the paper from the Republic that made it sound like it was a completely dry creek and there was no water in it. I felt like it was propaganda. And that's not the truth. The creek always had water in it -- even the stretch that went from the dam down to Irving was maybe a .0005 ccs but there was always water in it. And then once it got to Irving, then half the flow was restored to the creek. The other half that was not restored was the half that went to Childs. That's the part they restored to the creek. The creek always had water in it. So, it just seemed like it was a bit misinterpreted and so when people heard the news of a river reborn, all those things, it was good education. But, at the same time, it informed too many people that didn't even know the place existed. Jodie: We called up these reporters to ask them "Have you ever been there before?" "Oh, no, I got this information..." Well, you need to come here. There is water here. I really liked the fact that it was making clean energy. I was opposed to that, personally. But...it's gone now. [makes for a good example] Dex: I'm not surprised the direction it went; but I'm surprised at how many people are actually showing up there. Whitmire: So, did the agencies under-plan; were they naive or is this just a matter of the propaganda that you've cited? Dex: It's a little of both to be honest with you. Some of it was propagandas but some of it was just over advertised. There were too many articles in the paper; too many articles in magazines and the entire Arizona knew about Fossil Creek when typically not a lot of people knew about it. For example, when you've talking about...we [forest service] didn't really expect that kind of reaction to that many people showing up but there were some things that we neglected. For example, and I'm not picking on my own agency but, you know that building was decided to be left and they took out all the plumes and the buildings and the houses that were at that power house but they left the power house for historical sake with the hope that they could preserve it and use it for a little example of the power plant in Arizona. It was a great idea. But then, when APS left that site,

nothing was done. APS and the forest service should have had some foresight on what to do to protect that building. And that building got vandalized and ransacked. It's not totally destroyed but, nevertheless, it's been used as a copper theft for a couple of years. Jodie: And you go in there and clean it out and... Dex: Recently they have put bars over the windows so now it is a secured building but they should have secured it the day APS left. [what about paying someone to live there?] I think that was considered but Childs is not necessarily a safe place to have somebody hanging out. If they were law enforcement or something, that would be great. But law enforcement can't just hang out. [someone authorized to enforce the law] Doug interviews Norela Harrington, Clarkdale, 2/17/11, norelah@bent-river.com, 928.634.7568, recording okay, does not need to be anonymous, maybe review anything attributed

Q 1: What do you think are the most significant factors influencing the health of the Verde River system?People are the impact, but probably the whole water shortage in this state. We've got the adjudication and then we've got Prescott, Chino Valley and the whole water farming thing. Those are all 100 pound gorillas it seems like. (Grew up along the river. What changes have you seen?) The floods that we've experienced. The whole terrain change that we've seen is remarkable in the past years. In '93 we lost so many trees. (remembering the rope swing below Tuzigoot). There's been radical changes. I mean the swinging bridge that used to out at Tapco. There's tons of things that have come and gone. The river itself changes, I mean the old bridge that went down the river in the fall. It's just remarkable at the things that you find and the things that washed the river, just with its being a river. I think it's natural. It's very odd to me the ranches are just strict mosquitoes now and it never used to be. I believe that's lack of flow, but I don't know that. There's way more cattails on the river than there used to be and I believe that that's lack of flow, too. We never used to have them. That's a huge change in the last 10 years.

Q2: Do you feel there are things about the Verde River that we need to understand better? If so, what are they?I don't think we have the good picture like underground flows, subflows, the whole bright line thing, surface water, what groundwater, all of that are a little bit speculative. At one point years ago, I went to the library, I wanted an Arizona history book. It was talking about all the perennial rivers in Arizona and the Gila was perennial, the Agua Fria was perennial, and they're not any more. I believe that that's more attributable to man than it is any act of nature. The speculation that I read back then was the beavers had a huge impact. Like if you had a healthy beaver system, they’ll dam and keep flow. I think it's worthwhile to understand just what we're doing and how we're impacting. Santa Cruz, San Pedro also. (How do we get that information out to the people that really need to know it?) I don't know if the statutes have been changed, but there used to be a beneficial use clause and basically you can use ground water for beneficial use in any amount, any much, anywhere in the state. I'm a huge believer in property rights, a huge believer, I really am much more in favor of people getting good information than I am trying to legislate or whatever, but that's a really tough one. I don't know. To me, it seems like, especially when the real estate trade that's booming, they made Prescott an AMA, but it didn't appear to impact building at all there. It's like it never put any teeth. I think the idea was good, but there's never been any teeth in it and nobody's really said it stops. Do I want to take away people's freedoms and property rights? No. But somehow we have to figure out a win-win situation or a way to educate people, because I don't think anyone you could sit down with in this state and say would like Arizona to turn into a dust bowl and absolutely have no water anywhere? I don't think anyone would say that's a great idea. How do we take our mutual best interests and try to really get people on board. You can absolutely say that protecting the river improves my personal property. If it becomes a "government

event" where government is trying to regulate it and deal with it, it's not going to be very efficient, quite probably will wind up doing the wrong thing because it's not going to be anywhere near fluid, living enough to respond to what's currently happening. Where if you can get people to understand it through education and through consensus building, a creative process, that would have a chance of succeeding and really being of value. You don't need the government if you can create that process. I think that that's a way out there, and way more responsible "American" way to do it that truly... Right now we're in a mode where we want to litigate everything and I think that's wrong.

Q 3: To your knowledge what, if any, economic development activities have recently been, or are currently being, conducted that directly relate to the Verde River? Who is involved in these activities? Agriculture. Basically, we've got meanders and we have wonderful soil in this valley. It kind of cracks me up to see all the great lands going on the hill, but that industry is working too. I mean they're all on the hill, close to the river and the water, even though they may not be directly using the water. The whole viticulture industry is hugely aligned with the garlic. All the little agri-businesses happening. The old farms and homesteads through here that are all greenbelt land. They all contribute to what's going on. The whole fish and scenic piece of it. We have people that come...there is a tourist sales tax component of this, too. I feel like it's overrated and whatever...it's overrated because it's really not contributing as much to the economy? (How could tourism make it more productive for the economy?) I believe that we have a sense that bringing an industry in like tourism that provides sales tax is maybe more valuable than trying to bring in solid businesses that get people wages and jobs and all those other things. I think we miss the boat with that a lot of times. I think that the Verde River and Oak Creek and that whole thing is a huge draw that makes it such a pleasure to live here. It would be the same if it was a dust bowl or if it was dry. We hike at least near it, we irrigate with it, we have animals, all those things, they're direct straight line related to the river.

Q 4: What potential economic development opportunities exist which are associated with the Verde River system in the Verde Valley? This area is also found to be ideal for a whole greenhouse industry, more of a growing nursery kind of thing. I don't think it's being capitalized on very well. The whole meal ticket gardening stuff people are so interested in organic and I don't think that's nearly what it could be. Orchards. This is an amazing area for so many kinds of fruit trees and things. That's something that can be done. Root rot is problem for orchards here. It's one thing that can be managed and done. There's like the apples in Oak Creek and there's quite a bit in Cornville. All the pecans, the pecans are great. My folks had homesteaded like 14 apricot trees, I mean they were homestead apricots. They pretty much lost all of them in the last couple of years. I don't know what that story is. They were apricots that were better than any apricots anywhere bar none. I think somebody could put in an apricot orchard and do outstanding. If you're down by the river and you have that good soil and the water table comes by. These are really all really close to the Cottonwood ditch. The water was there and they were just amazing. (Manufacturing business that could be attracted?) We have, like, Raytheon come up here and they love to have field trips to the Verde Valley and a lot of times they'll hike. They'll stay in Sedona and do some hiking there. They'll go down along the river. They'll fish. They'll play golf. People from back east that we deal with love to come out in the wintertime for the climate. The river's all part of that picture. The river supplies the quality of life that good manufacturers are looking for. And also hiring people. It's something that you really try to sell when you're trying to talk to someone about relocating here. Fishing, hiking, camping is all right here. It really does help with trying to put together a good workforce. We've hired a couple of really powerful people and the reason they came here other than the job that they wanted was the area. They were like 4-wheel drivers or whatever and they wanted to be here.

Q 5: In your opinion, what information and facts are there that could be used to promote and advance the connection between the Verde River and potential sustainable economic development in the Verde Valley? Like I said, viticulture, the grapes, the whole nursery, that's supposedly not something that's being done particularly in this area, but it's rated right up there with Chino and Chino's like an economic place for it too. We hopefully are as well. Just agribusiness stuff. There's the whole trail riding, canoeing. There's people that are doing that, like John Parsons. The old ranches, too. There're hay growing and there's pastures. All that is an economic thing that happens here. It's kind of interspersed with the quality of life. Those guys all sell something.

Q 6 Who are important potential supporters in advancing the connection between a healthy Verde River and sustainable economic development?I would assume the economic development, Casey and those people probably are. I would be happy to work with something through SLIM, if there was something specific that we needed to do or talk about or whatever. The whole farm bureau is active and they're supposedly, Barbara at Alcantera, she's on the farm bureau board, and they're really working and trying to see how they increase the agri-grow and that whole part of the world. They're putting in olive trees in there. So there's a whole olive oil component thing that could be happening. It's going so far okay. We were they at the end of January and she said they had a lot of them in and so far, so good. I think it's positive direction because it capitalizes on the river and where we are. It's commodities that could be used in the area that could help fill up the whole tourist and just the whole flavor of the area. The garlic thing. Something you have working against you right now is the county, the whole budget thing, the new lady that they have doing, classifying agricultural property, that is a hostile environment. She's a very combative woman. I think that's a real issue for you guys. People can't afford this property if they put it back to full value and their only choice is going to be to develop it. What's going to happen? That's a real ugly trend that the county is driving here. I don't know if they've though it through.

Q 7: What or who do you see as current or potential barriers to advancing sustainable economic development in connection with a healthy river( for example, laws and regulations, property rights, institutional like ditch companies, water companies, historic uses, etc.), changing cultural values? (If response is that “there are too many,” ask for top 3-5…interviewer’s discretion)Tax valuation incentivizing people to converting their agricultural land to residential. Many people can't afford the large price hold???. And she thinks show the income, show me this, show me that. Prove you're a farmer. I have gone to battle with her in Cornville. ???? the ranch where we'd done this one thing. I have been somewhat successful. I'm still paying way more taxes than I used to. She sees that as her job description, to increase the tax base and drive out agriculture. Haven't talked to Chip about that, but Barbara's aware of it and they're talking about it and they're trying to do something about it and she's thinking it, too. I'm not sure if she's sat down with anybody about it. She's just commented about it and I said that I sure know. It's awful. You've got to fight now. You have to be willing to protest to get it in your favor.

Q 8: Who do you think might be interested in using the findings of this Verde River Economic Development Study, including the results of interviews such as this one?College. The hotel and tourist industry would be interested, I would think. I don't know. The viticulture people would be interested. ???Farm bureau would be interested. The people that have property close to the river and understand the river. There's the whole fight with Prescott that's really involved and I don't really know. Just getting that information out there would help people understand.

What's your impression of how much groundwater withdrawals from the Big Chino can affect the Verde River in Clarkdale?Something has changed and we've had a drought. Something has remarkably changed the river in the past 10 years. I would assume that Chino's a factor in that. That's all happened in that period as well. If you look at all the dry river beds that...we really are at risk of losing it entirely. I believe that we're still savable, but there's some line that we're approaching.

How long in Verde Valley? family bought property in 1959, grew up in Paloma, CA

How do you interact with the river? through the ranch...irrigation, canoeing, hiking; help manage the Hickey ditch, helping to maintain and putting up the structure; Nature Conservancy came and talked to us about using Walton money, I don't know what happened to that.

If you had $5M to invest to make the Verde River a healthier river?What part of it would you spend litigating Prescott? I think trying to get some line drawn in the sand would be my first priority. Prescott people are people, too, and they deserve a drink of water as much as anybody else does. How do we try to give that right and still preserve the river and are smart about how we are approaching that. And really understand what we're doing. Right now we're acting without understanding up there anyway is my impression. If you have enough money, you can go in there and change their habits. You can go in there and change their water usage efficiency and do those kinds of things without saying you no longer have a right to sell land in the Big Chino. Like couldn't you just create more watersheds where you could just capture rain water. What dams could you build? What could you do to capture more rainfall so that you didn't have such a huge impact on the groundwater. There are times when unbelievable amounts of water come down that river. And it's just gone. I've heard the idea of bringing in a pipeline from Colorado, but that's so invasive to the environment. It doesn't make any sense if you don't look at what resources are here and how do we use those better to try to really preserve what we have. Education here would be lovely if we had...are you aware of inviting environmental ed teachers to come down and teach classes along the river with kids. There were vans carting kids and getting them down there. That's brain work, actually hands-on time is way more effective. I would definitely spend some money on that and maybe there would be other sides of that like you could do at the nursing home, bring nursing home people down. How do you get more people just to understand. I would guess that there's a very high percentage of people that live in the Verde Valley that don't understand the ditch system. They don't really understand about all the animals are around the river and all those things. Or how to really use the river. How to find the hiking trails, the canoeing piece of it. I do remember it that one of the absolutely more joyful things that I do in life. I love it.What do you love about the river?The tranquility. The fact that you come on things. It's like when you hike, there's a noise that you make. But the canoe is quieter. You glide upon herons, turtles that are sunbathing. You see all kinds of fish doing crazy things when you're doing it. I know the first time that your came around the bend, there's a church down there doing river baptisms. It's just bizarre just the fun things that you run across. The herons and hawks all up along the river. They're so beautiful. The great horned owl. So spending further money, talking about the infrastructure of the river, the ditch thing I'm worried about. Like how do you hold the pumping station in a flood. There's some real things to figure out about all that that worry me alot. You don't want to give up the diversions until you find out if other things will survive. If the 18 cfs floods take out the Cottonwood ditch and the Hickey, how long are they out? It depends on what time of the year it is and what's going on in agriculture. Do they need water?

Anywhere from a week to 3 or 4 maybe. A new system would have to have that same timing. Like in the summertime, people lose stuff. Repairs would have to be funded. Sometimes just scheduling a caterpillar sometimes you pull your hair out to find somebody to come put a cat in the ditch. If the Hickey ditch really floods out, it costs $60K maybe to repair the whole thing. Maybe a bit more. Just pushing the dam isn't that bad to do. You have to haul in rock material and ?? materials and that complicates it. We have to start over again sometimes.

Anything about this study that concerns you?Giving the federal government the river, as a ditch person worries the heck out of me. Trying to keep it as much local, I'm really huge on that. the more local control we have the better. I believe that we can educate and do stuff ourselves with grants, that i'm 150% behind. But trying to bring in EPA, FEMA and saying okay, help us do this, scares me to death. We got involved with Obama's stimulus money for cutting out weeds and they came down and tried to cut down some of the paradise trees. I don't know how high that is on the list, trying to do something of that kind. I don't know how invasive or how much damage do. They propagate so quickly, I can't believe that they're not intransigent??? and they're so hard to kill. I would be interested, that there's so many things that we deal with that aren't native...tumbleweeds, and ???, and ???, arrundo?, giant reed and giant cane that down in the river. I guess it goes back to education. If people knew, I don't think they'd would plant it. People don't know why invasives are bad. You say what is native? It's such an amazing ecosystem and to try to do stuff to help maintain it or to get it to at least survive, all the different ways that we've put out finger in the pie. We've designed a machine that laminates solar panels. There's a company that I know, called Pure Wafer?, and what they do is recycle wafers and they think that there's a chunk of the product that could be used for solar panels. Repurpose these solar collectors. Wouldn't it be amusing if we could put together some kind of a simple line here in the valley. Like my poor parents, somebody came in and talked them into putting a solar panel. They said we're putting Canadian solar panels in so they won't be Chinese. Wouldn't it be fun if we could do something that was actually creating jobs here and that was helping with these things that could really help the river if we did put solar in. We're looking at expanding SLIM into Flagstaff and that could be a good thing. How do we build a better climate for manufacturing and how do we support each other and keep our dollars in northern Arizona. Sustainability is in many elements. Like this business, we have solar, we recycle, we really work at trying to recycle and all those things are good sustainability check marks. (continued talk about Clarkdale solar installations)

Doug interviews Eric Glomski at Page Spring Cellars, 2/15/11, recording okay, yes remain anonymous, approve any attributions

Q 1: What do you think are the most significant factors influencing the health of the Verde River system?There are so many things that it's a very complex situation. In my past life as working as a riparian ecologist and now living here in the Verde Valley versus over in Prescott and trying to make a living as a farmer as well, I'm going to assume that some of the things that were going on back then are still the biggest issues today. I would assume that groundwater pumping and both by small domestic wells and on the larger scale, for instance, the city of Prescott over there in the upper watershed, have still got to be huge. My guess is that they're still poorly understood. I don't know if the state of understanding of stabilized tope studies have improved, or understanding the relationship of what we're pulling out and what the recharge zones are, etc. The water use by humans, and pumping has got to be huge. My guess would be that the biotic health of the ecosystem is probably still at jeopardy based on general watershed practices, particularly on public lands regarding grazing, overgrazing, and to a lesser degree,

recreational use and roads and compaction issues, and then just actual degradation of the system itself, a long list of stream banks from use and overgrazing. That's been going on for a long time, but not much of that has changed since I was looking at it personally. Then of course, in suburban and urban areas, I assume there's probably a lot of, and I see it down here all the time, you've got populations growing so not only are you exacerbating water usage, but you're putting in more impermeable surfaces, we're channelizing the river in more and more places, we're developing flood plains which are often being filled with material to create more. If somebody buys a piece of land and a bunch of this is "developable", they can start filling it and get it up above that flood level and they've got an economically viable piece of property. Which is also happening with bridges, a number of things, and it's also on the little tributaries as well. I've seen it happen with intermittent waterways more than perennial ones because there's less of the understanding of their role in transporting flood waters and supporting the ephemeral communities along those as well. So there's a log of things I see all the time. Like right now, there's a piece of property that I own over in Camp Verde where people are rapidly filling this side drainage significantly sized ephemeral wash that flows off of Mingus Mountain into the Verde. It's just a dumping area. What this guy is doing, he's expanding his lot. Honestly, I've put in calls to the county and nobody has warned him. I've talked to people, maybe Hugh, you know, everybody's understaffed, underpaid right now. There are no resources available and I think, particularly at times where the economy is so low like this and budget serving cut enforcement of the laws that we've established to protect our waterways fall by the wayside because there're not critical organs. They're not used critical organs. I'm starting to ramble. There's a lot of things going on all around us. Every now and then I look around and I see that impresses me. Like I have been happy to see that over the years, more and more, I'm not sure what the terminology is, but essentially retention basins to control runoff from commercial properties. It's really great to see. It's certainly not ideal, but it's better than having a bunch of water not percolate at all rush into a wash and tear up the drainage into the Verde. So it will take whatever there is, top soils, pollutants. It is good to see that there's more of that happening than there was 10-15 years ago. For every one thing that you see like that, you feel that you're taking this step forward to manage the water residency, several might see the same old stuff. There's a brief summary of all the things that I see going on. (What does channelization do?) I think it's the difference between looking at the river as just a ditch for flood waters versus a vibrant biological community that's integral to whole landscape of the Verde Valley. In my experience in the past, I'll give just one example. There's many interlinked examples like this. Our major tree species along the river, say Freemont cottonwoods or maybe goodding willows or red willows or in some areas, Arizona sycamores or Arizona alders. The Freemont cottonwoods for instance seed at a very particular time of the year. The reasonable amount of scouring and then corollary deposition of fine sediments along the Verde and the timing of those events is incredibly important to producing seedbeds for cottonwood and willow seeds for instance. The phenology, the timing of the seeding of these species has coevolved with the flooding events throughout history. As we channelize, as we put in more and more impermeable surfaces, we radically change the hydrograph of how flooding occurs so 1. rather than take a certain amount of percolation and on a curve that represents a "natural" flooding event say prior to an urban area being developed what do the floods look like, how long it took for it to build up, how much sediment did it move and how long did it take for them to recede. Those used to have a much gentler curve and now they're a much longer pressed curve where much more fresh water hits the river quicker, explosive, down cuts and it moves things around much quicker and it moves them to different various places. Because of the rapidity of that, it's not coinciding as well with the seeding of these species. Furthermore, it only scours so that if they do establish, it tends to rip them out here. So the recruitment of some of the most important species that lead to avian habitats, civilization of river banks, Freemont cottonwoods attract copious quantities of insects causing a diversity of insects that are critical to insectivores like neo-tropical birds, etc. So something as simple as changing the way that the river

floods has a ripple effect that first affects the vegetation community, then the insects, then the birds, then the mammals, and everything else that relies on that. I think it's tough for most people to understand how, I don't think people do this maliciously, I really believe it comes more from ignorance than anything else, they don't understand that "let's just get this water out of here". What might be good to drain your parking lot may get rid of this beautiful river that helps define why we're all here in this valley in the first place. The river's not there because of us. We're here because of the river. That's why people settled in the Verde Valley. That's one example and there's many more. I've been talking about this stuff for a long time. I'm using this part of my brain that I haven't used in a while. You get incutting, your static water level starts to drop and the next thing you know, there's mesquites 20-30 feet upon the sediment benches above the river. It's a..all I have to say is that I feel incredibly lucky living along Oak Creek, just what a beautiful and relatively healthy system this is. We have a lot of bedrock control here and so it's less affected by some of these things. When we first started across, there's a bridge up here and I almost guarantee that the bridge if you look at downstream. Downstream has a lot more alders than sycamores and the cottonwoods are really relictual here and so it's affected the way that this system meanders after that bridge. There's like a recovery period before it starts moving around it and right downstream from that bridge, it's got to recover from that pinching. I only see those big old cottonwoods, there's not really anything else recruiting there anymore. But we are seeing alders. Alders typically do better in perennial systems. They grow right along the banks and they deal with flooding more effectively. And I think the sycamores do, as well. It's interesting. This is a pretty healthy system, but you can even see how it's changed into a different kind of system because of our presence here.

Q2: Do you feel there are things about the Verde River that we need to understand better? If so, what are they?Having been involved in Prescott Creek's Preservation Association over in Prescott as essentially one of the founders, I really think that this has a long continuum of things that could fall into this category. Something as simple as that we found at Prescott Creeks, putting signs up on every wash and river saying “Granite Creek,” "This is Granite Creek" ; or Bannon Creek, this is this is “so and so wash”; because most people go across these bridges and don't even realize that that's a bridge unless there's water flowing underneath it or just sometimes water flowing underneath it. We kind of worked from the most simple things to hey, by the way, this is here. Like you said when you walked in, that our people probably don't even know where the Verde River is, where it comes from, where's its headwaters, where's it go. I head somebody out here on the deck talking to people, he was pontificating with some friends about this water right down here being Page Springs and this is Oak Creek, of course. I think that something as simple as people having a sense of place and sense of geography associated with our rivers. Where actually do they flow in our communities, where they come from and where do they go. I think that alone is very powerful. You could sweep across all the subjects we just discussed. I used to travel around with this slideshow for about 10 years talking about all of the issues in the Prescott area. I've actually throughout the state done presentation for the state senate and house to educate people about everything from channelization, how hard roads and rooftops run off affect riparian systems, how development in the upper watershed, all these different types of managements of public lands above our watershed. There's often watersheds above our towns. I think the most important thing is a lot of technical data we can gather, but ultimately I believe that educating the "common people" about in some way that is not really technical, that actually educates people and helps them take ownership of the river is ultimately where the solution is going to be found. I used to do restoration work, and we always used to say and its become colloquial since then, that we weren't restoring rivers, that we were restoring communities. And we didn't get the buy in from the community, we can do anything we want along that river, but it was going to get degraded

again. The important thing was getting people involved in these projects to raise their awareness and to create ownership and a sense of responsibility. I think those are the most important we could use. If we were ever going to do projects in this valley, a broader community involvement in the projects, because all too often they can be very esoteric and a small handful of us that love rivers and have some technical knowledge end up doing these things and we end up kind of being these little enclaves or groups that know water. Then it doesn't really change anything. If there is a change, it's small and often not permanent because the of the classis cliche, are we looking at the cause or the symptom. Education communities getting the people involved to protect it. I once tried to do this workshop for construction guys in Prescott because these guys don't have an education about tromping around with all this heavy equipment in places. I don't think it's so much to get out and give a sh**. I just think they don't know. Maybe even some of them that do care and there's a seam of a sense there that they want to do something different, they don't have the tools to actually or otherwise...not that they're dumb people, but nobody's talking about information they can use to make better decisions.

To your knowledge, what if any economic development activities have recently been, or are currently being, conducted that directly relate to the Verde River? Who is involved in these activities? I can speak about ourselves and the idea of a grape industry in just a moment, but you know there's an adventure tour company they brings people by here now. I talk with him all the times. One of the tours that they're doing is floats, which is really neat for me to see. It has an opportunity for people to understand or to just see the river, number one, because most people...I remember some buddy and I came over here to Cornville and we just out of the blue, we were young and stupid, we got a bunch of inner tubes, put in at Cornville store, floated down Oak Creek to the Verde and then employed down to the child's power plant. It was glorious. I mean it was amazing to me and there were sections with quite a few homes and long stretches in which there was no body there. I wonder how many people have actually even hiked along or floated on parts of this river. There absolutely amazing. I'm encouraged assuming that there's an ethic that goes along with that use, too, because there's always that fear that if it doesn't help, somebody's going to have to step in and say "are we over loving it" and how do we manage this. As a first step, utilizing that way, that ecotourism approach has zero potential benefit because as a farmer, I believe that it's easy for us to get caught up in the ideals of conservation and not understand the realities of how to make a living off the landscape. I think that when you are faced with actually, like me, if my crop fails, it hurts. It's not like "oh, I can't buy lettuce in the store this week." It really affects us. It puts major doubt into the economics of our businesses, but it also gets us to really appreciate the relationship we have with the quixotic nature of the landscape and how we really do rely on it. Most people don't have that relationship with the earth. It's easy to forget about the connection because most of our livelihoods are very indirect. I see rivers as pretty abstract. The more we...when I was younger, it was easy for me to judge ranchers, you guys have to handle this watershed and you're wrecking my rivers. On the other hand, these guys at least when they're out there, they can see what their cow? is doing. Most people can't see how they're affecting the landscape around. Most people don't know that when they build a house and put in a driveway on a road in a subdivision how it affects the river. The river's way over there. How could we ever affect that? The more we figure out ways to interact in ways that actually our economy is tied to it as well, the more we'll be forced to reckon with those forces and we'll be forced to make decisions that create a balance between the resource and our need for that resource. Right now, it's abstract and we don't understand the direct connection. This river company is going to the more they get involved in that. Me on the banks of Oak Creek here, my water supply and even just knowing how much my business relies on the beauty of this river. 50% of the reason, maybe more, maybe 75, that people come to our winery is because they like to sit out here and look at this river. That's an amazing thing. And they're not using it. All they're doing is looking at it. It's not a consumptive use of the river. That's a really beautiful thing. I knew this guy once who was a surfer

when I lived in Santa Cruz, and he said "You know why I like surfing so much? Because the waves just come in and they disappear and they come again. If you hop on one, you're not taking anything away. You can go back out and you leave one and you can come back again." I always thought that was a really poetic thing for him to recognize that as a surfer that he essentially had no impact, yet he could enjoy this aspect of nature. To me that's a lot about what we do here too. People can come and sit and just enjoy and that in itself is just the value. A use nonetheless, but not a consumptive use. I think if you look at how important tourism is to this state and to this valley in northern Arizona, it makes you wonder when we're really going to be able to assign a value so that it's more palpable when we're trying to protect these things. (how does the wine industry relate to the river?) Since we first met, it's changed a lot. It's grown, but the most interesting thing is that I'm finding us pulling back from the rivers now because we're dealing with cold issues. I don't think we every realized...I've always know that cold air drains down river valleys, cold air’s damp and it sinks..but I don't think I ever understood the severity by which these inversions occur along rivers. As a farmer, you're drawn to the river because you've got these flood plains which are often, many have been cleared in the past so there's already arable land there. For me, the idea of cutting down mesquite bosque would just be crazy. I also know that when I bought it, somebody had created the mesquite bosque before me. I bought a pasture and then planted grapes in it. I've been telling everybody now, because everybody's been doing the same thing, now don't plant in the flood plains. Get out of the river bottoms. Have the first batch on the slopes just above the river because I learned so much about seeing my vines get frosted and where I actually lose them because of winter lows. Sometimes a measly 20, 30, or 40 feet above that on some bench is radically different as far as the diurnal temperature swings. I'm pulling out two acres of vines above my vineyard here next month and planting a French-American hybrid called ??? that's much more cold tolerant. I planted Grenache down there. I also planted at the top of my parking lot. Above the parking lot is 2 years old and it's as big as the bottom 7 and we've been monitoring the temperatures there. It's like night and day. The good news is that if the people could listen to me, they'd then wouldn’t make these same mistakes themselves. I don't see we're going to see a lot of riparian areas and mesquite bosque cleared for vineyards. The down side is I'd rather see vineyards as some kind of agricultural use than houses down there. What's the lesser of evils? In the Verde, a lot of people said I want to plant down near Paul Woolsey(?), you back behind Safeway and see all those properties in the flood plain. If you want to plant grapes on these, I wouldn't plant grapes there and here's why. There's going to be a lot of temptation to plant grapes here because it's the new thing and that's where people grow things. It's really a better place for orchards or annual crops or restoration projects along the river. I've changed my opinion about this a lot because I really got that any of these areas that crops are on, this is really going to a living great model of sustainability for those areas geographically. I still think it's a great model of sustainability because the fact that a small family can make a living farming, value added, I think is a great thing. Not many farmers can do that. It's going to end up happening just out of the river. Just away from the river, but possibly still relying on water, shallow wells or deeper wells. There's still going to need to be a water source to irrigate those soils. Some of the old, relictual flood plains that are on the benches have great soils but they're not super low. You can still access water. Grape farms in the world are generally across an estate, they're probably most drought tolerant of anything in our knowledge, the big crops of cotton, and citrus, alfalfa. They still use water. My top block here, the syrah that surrounds just below the building, I barely irrigate anymore. Maybe once or twice a year for a day with the drip system which is pretty impressive. But to establish a vineyard, you need a bunch of water. You have in comparison, let's say an acre of grapes, the number of houses you could put in there, out here it's 2-acre minimums, but in downtown Cottonwood, I think we're still neck and neck an acre of vineyard versus a typical four-bedroom household, we're still at about the same volume of water use. A good study of that would be good. The important thing will be to do the study long enough that you get into the maturing of the grapes. The type of root stock you use is important. Some

root stocks are much more drought tolerant than others. And then the irrigation techniques because I think less frequent, deeper waterings will train the roots downward, it's going to be very important too. Which has worked for me well here. But it also depends on the porosity of the soils, and all kinds of issues. To cap off the whole vineyard idea, I think as far as the Verde, grapes have a potential to be part of a blended economy here. It would be nice to have a kind of economy that isn't 100% based on tourism. It's nice to have appropriate industry, agricultural areas, commercial, residential, etc. Our model, the small family farm winery has a potential to fit in there and to help be part of a semi-rural landscape that has a lot of charm and a lot of economic value. I have 35 employees now. We're really proud of what we've built here. We're an organic farm. We don't use any petrochemicals whatsoever. Most farmers use a lot of loose farm bases and oxydizers. Our main sanitizing unit is a steam unit, so totally harmless. That's not to say we're not putting out any waste whatsoever. We have a nice alternative leech system here where we compost the majority of our waste products we mulch from both the vineyard and the winery which is beautiful. We have a couple hundred yard compost pile here that we work back in. We're going to see more of this in the future. The more we can encourage it to be, non-agrichemical base, it will be great. (Is the word out there that you're doing this?) People in the wine industry tend to be really...not only are they not cooperative, but as early pioneers, they're very headstrong and work kind of like heat-seeking missiles. To pull something like this off, you need to be such an A-type personality and so into it that you don't listen well enough. I'm sure I'm at fault as much as anybody. I've certainly encouraged people to think about this. Our vineyard looks like an organic vineyard. There's stuff growing here. We have a skunk that keeps messing up everybody. So we set out a big live trap out there. Guess what we got in it? An adolescent grey fox. It was beautiful and we let it go. We've never seen one in the vineyard bottoms. We have nesting black hawks, and wood ducks, and dippers, and rattlesnakes. It's hard to say. Part of it, I'm pretty focused on our own things. I've talked at length, I've been interviewed. I've written articles for our industry newsletter about last newsletter was about sustainability. We're talking about that in a few days. We're having the local recycling center out. We have a whole recycling setup that we've built over here and neighbors come and bring their stuff here. We have a long way to go. I'd like to solar power this winery from a hot water. Some of the machinery we have can't be handled economically from a photovoltaic grid.

Q4: What potential economic development opportunities exist which are associated with the Verde River system in the Verde Valley? If somebody plopped a huge pile of money in my lap and said do something along this river that you think would be transformative for this community, I don't know if you've ever been to Watson? Woods out near Prescott. That was my graduation project from Prescott College. I worked with the mayor and I go that place inside. i worked on other things out there. The next project I was going to take on if I hadn't got the wine bug was downtown Granite Creek, I wanted to open up the backs of all those businesses and turn it more into a river walk, commercial area. Then not only would you have something economically for the community that's just beautiful and vibrant, I was thinking board walks and street vendors and musicians and all that, but then it gives you a podium to start putting in interpretive signs and conducting tours. "This area is ....above the flood plain. Down here it goes down into natural area" I think that from a commercial prospective, the Verde River is completely under utilized. Look what's been done in Sedona with the back of L'Auberge for instance. You have all these condos and resorts and they're all facing the river. They understand the value of the view of that river and they've capitalized on it. We've got Dead Horse State Park. We're not building businesses on the edge of the flood plain taking advantage of those beautifully views and the walkways and the integration between paths and businesses that could be along that. That would be phenomenal along the Verde River. It's a big project. You have mixed land ownership. I started the project in Prescott. It was going to be a 10 or 20 year project, even if it was one chunk done. It has to be a community based project.

There's a lot of politics involved, there's different land owners and ideas about the river. We need to find funding to either acquire these or to purchase easements and to maybe provide a means for these people to run their businesses if they're facing the road and the river's behind them. Is there a way for us to create incentives for us to open up the back. If we put in the boardwalk there, what gives these guys the ability to actually open up the backs of their businesses. I think it's complex. It could require some kind of master planning. Why not do it now? And have the ability to integrate places like Dead Horse. Old Town Cottonwood with those side drainages, there's so many things that could be done with that with the side drainages as part of the trail systems, greenways, and some kind of commercial use at the edge of those flood plains and those trees and the trails and the ecotourism associated with it. You know the value of the birding industry from the Nature Conservancy. It's a multimillion dollar industry in Arizona.

Q 5: In your opinion, what information and facts are there that could be used to promote and advance the connection between the Verde River and potential sustainable economic development in the Verde Valley? (covered previously)

Q 6: Who are important potential supporters in advancing the connection between a healthy Verde River and sustainable economic development? Obviously you've got some sympathetic people like the Casey Rooneys or ??? or such. I think it's got to be a partnership between protection conservation and tourism. All the tourism bureaus and all the people that are concerned with bringing people here. Concierges. Everybody who's livelihood is essentially based on the beauty of this place that attract people to this area. Those are inherently business people as well. Back in the days of Prescott College for me and the conservationists I was involved with, we all too often put ourselves the ?? on the table for people we shouldn't have. There are adversarial relationships that don't need to be adversarial. It's the classic state, I read all the classics and somebody said, "Do you want to be right, or do you want to be effective?" I'm ??? the master key to the whole thing. The question is...you've got to have idealists out there, but all too often, the people with the knowledge and the heartfelt, soulful connection with rivers often lack the communication skills or the willingness to understand and empathize with the people who are trying to make a living who are the business people, chamber of commerce, and things like that. Trying to pull the naturalists and the ecologists and the biologists together with those people to come up with some kind of real meeting of the minds is how to make something like that work. Often, idealists rarely have funding to pull off what they want to do, or the managerial skills to make something reality. Then you've got these guys over here that may have those skills, but they may not have the knowledge to integrate that to protect this thing, to understand how important it is. I think that multidisciplinary kind of approach is going to be the key to the whole thing. There's this idea that if you compromise, you're giving up everything. Have you ever been in a relationship with a woman or a man? You don't have it if you can't compromise.

Q 7: What or who do you see as current or potential barriers to advancing sustainable economic development in connection with a healthy river for example, laws and regulations, property rights, institutional like ditch companies, water companies, historic uses, etc.), changing cultural values? (If response is that “there are too many,” ask for top 3-5…interviewer’s discretion)Anybody out there in the conservation, research world would be excited about something like this. It helps you get grants. It helps you fund other projects. We just did an economic impact study of the wine industry here in the Verde Valley and found out that there was a lot more impact than we realized. That really gives us a bargaining chip when we're out there trying to convince people, "Hey, can you help us out here" or "We think we want your vote to allow us to do this because, etc." It's a published study. The draft findings are out through Tom Pitts and the Wine Consortium. The final study will be published

pretty soon. It was actually done for NAU and very well done. Without total participation, which is a shame, Barbara Predmore didn't participate over at Alcantera, I'm not sure why. Any of these ideas that we can talk about as far as how do we create this awareness, how do we create more sustainable business around the river, and how do we find support politically. There's legal aspects of this that will probably be modified and changed over time. A study like this is inherently going to underlie any of those efforts.

Q 8: Who do you think might be interested in using the findings of this Verde River Economic Development Study, including the results of interviews such as this one?

How long in Verde Valley? Relatively new, but been coming down here since the late '80s. Moved back to Arizona in 2002, lived in Prescott, have done research all over the upper Verde, too. I've come down here particularly to Oak Creek and the fish hatchery, the bubbling ponds, bird watching since the late '80s. It's an amazing area.

How do you interact with the Verde River? covered

If you had $10M to spend on making the Verde River a better river, how to spend it?I would do multiple years of study and try to balance out alot of the issues. It's difficult to say. That can be everything from fencing parts of the upper watershed and lobbying the forest service with those moneys to change management practices in the upper watershed to buying critical habitat in areas to working with some of these urban river ideas that I was throwing out to you. Funding educational programs. There's a great way to try to change the future, funding river education in our schools for kids so that we're raising kids with an ecological awareness evolves into literacy about rivers. That's why I'd do multiple years of study because there's so many ways to approach it and I think some kind of balanced approach in a lot of different ways would be...they'd have to be earmarked in different ways for public programs. We have to span the whole continuum from educating people to trying to have a longer term change in people's perception of the river all the way to here and now, this is a critical habitat. We need to protect this now while we're trying to change people's ways of interacting with these rivers. And a million things in between. That's just a quick nutshell. Setting up...a new plan has to have a means of assessing whether, you know mileposts of whether you're being successful and ways of modifying it if you're not being successful. Setting clear goals for what we're trying to do. I'd spend a bunch of time figuring out how to spend the money first, and coming up with a plan that has really thought it through, you got a lot of people involved, and execute it and have a way of keeping track of the success of various legs of the plan. (What does organization look like that implements this plan?) The great thing is that there is already funding in place. Most little organizations start out with volunteers and maybe they hobble along enough to get an executive and then they pick up a little momentum and etc. If it was an organization that actually could afford, it's got to have broad community representation from specialists to business people to local governments...all the users and players. It's got to be equipped with a staff that has the ability to carry out whatever decisions and objectives and goals are set. First it starts off with broad based representation striving to put together some kind of master plan for the geographic area and the river in question. With goals that integrate the health of the river with the sustainable use by the community. If anything, l the money gets spent sparingly at first for the development of the organization, but most of it gets held in reserves once the organization has developed to a point where there's something solid and concrete there that can really be done. You don't want to squander all that money on bureaucrats pushing papers around. You want to get something that really has some substance. And bring in people that really know how to get that stuff done. You form partnerships. You talk to people like the Nature Conservancy, who have done a lot

of great community projects where they balance conservation with the needs of rural communities. It's exciting. If I weren't having a pretty good time in the life I'm in right now, I would say that I'd sign onboard. My businesses are my family which will allow me to pursue other advocations of mine and this is certainly one of them. I'm going to be giving a wine river tour here in the near future for a bunch of our members...give kind of a natural history tour of the creek maybe from the jail there. It's a step back for me. It's been on the back burner for some times. Just the other day, for the first time, beginning down in the perennial zone of Clear Creek over there, what an amazing ecosystem. My wife and I did it and it was just so amazingly beautiful. And healthy in a lot of areas as well. There's so many little gems like that around here that I hate to see those go by the wayside. It looks like the water's pushed up by some kind of geological uplifting when the water hits granite plus wham/bam this is beautiful and then it eventually drops out again. There's nothing like in the fall hiking along there and there's black hawks over there as well. It's so beautiful.

Casey interviews Richard Lynch of Sedona Adventure Tours, 2/17/2011

Q 1: What do you think are the most significant factors influencing the health of the Verde River system?It's all of us living out here. People who need the water, Prescott who is looking at needing more water and digging into the base flow of the Verde River. The climate changes, when we go through droughts, the more of us want to live out here. Less water at different times. We go through these droughts and water richness periods. But the biggest thing is all of us living out here and needing water. And not using it wisely.

Q2: Do you feel there are things about the Verde River that we need to understand better? If so, what are they?Everything. People in our valley have no concept that we even have a river. Most people that live here have no clue. The biggest thing is educating people on look what's in your backyard providing recreational access right out of everybody's back door. You talk about everybody understanding where the water levels are, what's going on. That would be a huge educational factor. We've got an understanding that it's a very dynamic environment, where the water is actually coming from, it's the rainfall that's happening up on the plateau up on the Mogollon Rim. That it is percolating down through all these layers of sandstone and it takes 40-50 years to recharge the aquifer. This is from what I've been reading from the hydrology and geology reports, the Verde Valley is one of the most complicated geological/hydrological features in the world because of just all the weird stuff that the Verde Valley deals with...the Colorado plateau, this basin range area that are south, a lot of weird stuff that water moves in different directions, particularly below the ground. All this demands a big education.

Q 3: To your knowledge what, if any, economic development activities have recently been, or are currently being, conducted that directly relate to the Verde River? Who is involved in these activities? Everything. There's not a single business that is not related to the Verde River in the Verde Valley. Without the Verde River, nobody lives here. Our economy is that of water. End of story. Without the river, we're gone. There's not a single business, there's not a home, there's nothing that isn't related to the Verde River here. If you want to talk about who's out there right now doing something that is being a part of this, the farms in this area, all the ranches, the farming that's through the Verde Valley. Everybody who is growing grapes, the whole wine industry, the recreational. Look at the state parks over here, Dead Horse Ranch would not exist unless they had the ability to have their loons, have a lush environment for people to come and stay. You have the parks, you have the camping, canoe rentals, kayak rentals. The fishing, the ??? of the river, game and fish is all up and down the Verde River. You

have a lot of different studies that are being conducted by the universities, NAU, U of A...they come up here constantly with their groups of kids, students that are doing biology stuff, that are doing hydrology things. Studying wilderness areas. Fossil Creek is a unique example and that's a tributary to the Verde River. We don't see those people on our tours. They kind of do their own thing. They've already bought boats that are here because this is something that they do several times a year. So they've got a bunch of boats and gear. They're already stashed or they rent it or whatever. Occasionally we get a call like a boy scout groups that come up and do think with us and call up. Girl Scout groups. Big Brothers-Big Sisters, a lot of different organizations that want to use the river as a recreational connection. Camp by it.

Q 4: What potential economic development opportunities exist which are associated with the Verde River system in the Verde Valley? One of the biggest draws is that we're one of the few communities in Arizona that has navigable river running right through it. If you look at some of the other communities throughout the SW and Colorado that have looked at what's in their back yard, they have developed an entire concept around water...around the recreational use of it, the spiritual use of it. Whatever, people gathered water. It's fun, it's what's life's all about. To have, to see particularly for Cottonwood right now, where you could actually develop some kind of a water park that is, you can attract people to come up here. You can attract kayakers, you can build obstacles so that they can use the hydrology of the river as it moves around horns and over rocks to do all their playing. And play boats, tubing, make it something that's right in our back yards. If we can't use it all the time, at least make it usable on the weekends when everybody's coming up. People from Phoenix and from the state. Right behind that are shops and stores and hotels and restaurants that are all geared towards come here and recreate, come here and bird, come here and boat, come here and swim, come here and fish. Cottonwood is right where it needs to be so far as the spot, but haven't tapped into it. Not at all. Nobody has. There's nothing along the Verde River that is saying recreation, fun. Drive up and down the Verde Valley and find out how many places go "River", opportunity, fun, fun, fun. It doesn't exist. It's almost like it's been completely ignored. Some much of Cottonwood was developed on the south side of the river where there's the flood plain over here. But as you go on to the north side of the river, you're up off the flood plain and as you look into these other communities that have developed around the river, they've got bridges that connect and all the stuff that needs to be built is up off the flood plain. Yet has a direct access, all the access that can get you down to the river, or close to it. There's a lot of different things, but it's kind of been developed on this side the flood plain side. The river's way over there as we'll see today as we go out and do our thing. You don't even see it because it's just a tangle of willows and cottonwoods and just not even noticed over there by most people. Whereas, if you're up on the north side, you're looking down into that whole environment. There's no end to the number of economic opportunities. Once you start showing people that there's fun and there's water, they're going to come. Sedona's the same way. They don't even honor Oak Creek. They don't even realize that it's there. The whole town is built around staying away from the creek because of the raging...These places all grew up at a different time, when the creek wasn't creation. The creek was for farming, for how do I get that water to my plowed ground. But nowadays, it's like how do we... People are going to come to water, particularly in Arizona. How do we use it, enjoy it, but not abuse it? Those who need it...this is my ranch, this is my farm, they need to have that water, even though they need to come up with ways to use it rather than doing this massive flooding of a field that doesn't really... What that does is take away from the economic recreational value depleting what's going down the river that someone can go boating, tubing, swimming right in our backyard. It needs to coexist. It's in everyone's best interest. In Arizona, water rights are huge. Who wants to go you want me to settle for the grass and that goes on record. Needs

to be together, but no one's going to listen to you. My family settled here...we've been here 10 generations. It's hard to get anybody...it's got to be approached in a different way. So everybody gets what they need, brings more mojo growth into this epic community. Have you been up to sycamore canyon? It's almost water laden. We have a lot more water that comes through there than people realize. Today when we go out we'll see where the water's diverted.

Q 5: In your opinion, what information and facts are there that could be used to promote and advance the connection between the Verde River and potential sustainable economic development in the Verde Valley? The fact is, you're a river town. We have year round water. This is a fact. But we need to make it boatable, obvious public accesses showing where to boat, swim, fish. There's all these different stretches that you can play on throughout. Providing the people with the information about here's where you can get in and here's where you can get out. For the river, this is what's going to bring people in. Once people have got it figured out for themselves, you just shrunk the market down to the people who are adventuresome people and do it on their own. These people are going to come up, camp out, do everything on their own. They're going to buy their food in Phoenix. They're going to figure it out themselves and then they're going to be gone. Tie economic development into these people who are coming here. When you show them the boat run, where to get in, a shuttle service, boat rental, all the logistics. It's amazing all the things that a person just has to give a credit card to get. You can put a package together...this is where you put in, here's where you camp, here's where you get out, and here's the package that we're putting together for you. You come in the night before and stay here; we'll pick you up at the hotel; we'll bring you over and then you're going to do your river trip for the day or bring people in for the weekend, for the holiday, for the week. And tie it to the wineries. Boat to them. We'll pick you up and take you to them if you can't boat to them. There's all these connections, but the regulars are dying out. They don't want to figure this out for themselves. The person who can do it is like a mountain biker. They're going to do it on their own. They're going to do it on the cheap, so not much stays in the community. Missing the connection between the tourists and the river. Drive through the whole community and never know about the river. Certain information already exists out there. The state park has entire maps of the Verde greenway that they've been developing to connect the whole Verde Valley from Cottonwood down to Camp Verde. This is where you put in, this is where you take out, but it's just not out there. You can't go to the park and rent a canoe or a kayak or a shuttle. You've got to figure that out on your own. I'm keyed up to do the rentals, but Max and the crew over there are going what do we do. I just want to do it. Last time I spoke to the state, it was "we're dealing with a lot of issues." I think now is the time to ask Max where are we, because the areas that we're going today are all state park areas. Bring people right into the back door here. Millions of them. Pillowcases full of money.Q 6: Who are important potential supporters in advancing the connection between a healthy Verde River and sustainable economic development?Biggest supporters for a healthy Verde River would be the community. Everybody who lives here has to be aware of their water usage. Every agricultural user who's connected to the ditches. The cities, the chambers of commerce, the economic development people have to realize that this is everything. If this goes away, we all go away. There's nothing left at all. The more energy you put into going "okay, how do we make this happen." If everybody today could "You know if the Verde River is flowing through Cottonwood today? Does anybody have an idea" or "Is there any water in the Verde River today?" I see that it is published on the front page of the newspaper, the river is running 80 cubic feet per second. Just that little amount of intel...a cubic foot is a basketball. So 80 basketballs are going past a given point on the Verde River every second. Does that give you a vision the amount of water. Imagine 4 basketballs, 3 basketballs. Or imagine 100K. That's what this could get up to as far as our flood plain is

so massive because of the drainage that the Verde River has. You look at the drainage that the Verde River has in northern Arizona and it's unbelievable. We have those huge floods that come raging down there. But when people talk about that, when they know that this is how much water is coming through here. All the communities' economic development people. The growth of the communities. As more people live here, we have to realize where this water is going to be coming from. How far down you have to sink. All this water technically belongs to SRP. We don't own it. Salt River Project owns this water. This is the cheapest water they have according to everybody...all the meetings I've gone to. We want to keep this in Prescott. This is a mayhem to work with those guys. To make them realize that ...Have you been up to Perkinsville and seen the stretch in Perkinsville? That's all part of their backyard that they don't even use. People don't even know what's out there. Education institutions are supporters, too. The colleges, the schools. A huge supporter would be Arizona Office of Tourism. Making the Verde River realistically a destination driver. It isn't right now. Then the casino...DD, railroad...DD, Out of Africa...DD, ?? 20.08 Trail... DD, river...no DD. This is something that you been ???20.17 and then their stuff kicks in and you go, do you realize that there is water in the desert? My mission in life is to turn the river into a DD.

Q 7: What or who do you see as current or potential barriers to advancing sustainable economic development in connection with a healthy river( for example, laws and regulations, property rights, institutional like ditch companies, water companies, historic uses, etc.), changing cultural values? (If response is that “there are too many,” ask for top 3-5…interviewer’s discretion)One of the greatest is the way the laws are written for water usage, the property rights along the river, old thinking. People just ignore the river. That's been used as an agricultural dumping ground. Mining, all these guys used it as push it in, who cares. As you boat up and down the Verde River like I have, and you run into these dams that people have made to divert water, they're the grossest, most offensive acts of nature that you've ever seen. I mean they're just literally...I mean, someone tore up a parking lot and took it out and dumped it in the river to help back up to create dams. You've concrete, rebar, old metal buildings, cars, some of the most...but then the mentality years ago was different. Automobiles used to stabilize the banks. Now those automobiles are right out in the middle of the river in different sections. A lot of potential barriers particularly in our area is that everybody's used to commenting "the dirty Verde". Yea, it's a sedimentary ?? 22.13. The Colorado means red. The Colorado River never ran clean. It ran the sediment from the Rockies and the Colorado Plateau. That's why the Green River...all these guys are massively muddy, silty, doesn't necessarily mean they're dirty. It's the erosion that sculpts this landscape out here. The mindset is dirty. There's just this whole, for those that have grown up here, and I hadn't come up from a long time ago, I never even knew you could do this stuff in the places we go. Every once in a while, we went down as kids. People just ignored it...you don't see tons of recreational opportunities on a river, fun. One of the potential barriers, too, is the fact that it doesn't get, we don't have river maintenance on the river to make the sections that we want to be able to boat, boatable. We've got to be able to establish grants, funds, whatever so that there is somebody out there trimming down trees, pulling out old cars and concrete. Things of this nature where it takes the river and makes it all navigable. Makes the whole thing completely navigable and safe. If it's fun and safe, everybody's digging it. If it's not, then. We have to let people know it's here. All of our marketing for the Verde Valley has to be completely surrounded by...when people see water, they immediately go, that's where I want to go, that's what I want to do because there's water in the desert. It's a high desert oasis. Look at how much fun this is. And there's a sign that says this is where you go, this is your access point. Here're all the systems that are set up, all the different companies that can provide you with all the things you want to do. It's one thing to bring people up here, but the people who are going to come up here have already got the equipment. This is a done deal. Those who are coming up here want to be entertained. It only costs this much, we can take the whole family, and we can take a picnic lunch. It's

safe and adventurous. It's affordable. If it's too dangerous, if it's too technical, if there's too any moving parts to it, if they've got to make too many decisions, they're out of there. When they come up and go wow, we can spend the whole day and this outfit will provide us with a boat, cooler, food, ice. A barrier is lack of knowing that this is available. And then trees, cars, concrete, those kinds of barriers. And it isn't available year round right now with the way the water is diverted as it enters into Cottonwood. Once the water is diverted, boom, you go down to a little fraction until you get lower down towards Oak Creek where we're doing the water to wine. What comes in right about that, and the reason we can do that, is that the Cottonwood Ditch pumps in right there plus the way hydrology works, any time you get lower as the river is cutting down through a valley, it's always descending. Any time you start getting lower, you're going to start running into springs, seeps. More water is just becoming available because of the natural flow of water, groundwater. There's less. Any time you start up higher, once the river cuts down to where the base flow is, then it's not seeping into the ground anymore. We're creating manmade barriers to the flow of the river by having diversions. There are places where there's a barb wire fence going across the river. Weird things. Technically, Arizona law is that if the river is navigable, you only own to, you can't stop anybody from floating through it if it's navigable. You can only develop to a FEMA 500 year flood plain. That's, I don't know all the rules and regulations on it. There are certain ??? 27.18, particularly up where it's skinnier, it's smaller. I want to keep my cattle from going across or whatever. There's people who don't want you using the river period. There's a lot of reasons why. You go by sections where there's people out there with pumps illegally pumping water into their own ditch. Nobody's ever out there monitoring, or looking at it. We're asked the forest service rangers about it. They go, yeah we've seen that there, but it's not our gig. They're not doing anything to us, they're doing it on their own land. There's a lot of people who are taking advantage of the fact that there's nobody out there regulating, looking. That's another reason why a lot of us recreation access has been denied. There are a lot of people who don't want people knowing what's going on down there.

Q 8: Who do you think might be interested in using the findings of this Verde River Economic Development Study, including the results of interviews such as this one?Everybody. There's not a single business here that is not tied to the water. Everybody can use this whether you're building a home, you've got a coffee shop. This is huge. Having this in our backyard, most people don't realize. If that doesn't exist...these ditches are gone. It's gone. If nothing flows down these agricultural ditches, there's no more farming here. Everyone's going to have to go farther down with their wells. The wine industry and everything we're looking at is totally in jeopardy. People in business don't know it affects them. As long as the water comes out the faucet, who cares. Long as I can take a shower, do my laundry, my dishes get done. Nobody understands where that comes from. There's snow up on the San Francisco Peaks, 127 years ago last Thursday at 9:17 and it took that long for it to make its way down here. People just don't pay any attention to it. Everybody is completely influenced by everything that you're doing here right now. Who might be interested? Everybody along the river corridor, all your ranches, your farms, your vineyards. Anybody who is drawing any kind of water related directly businesses. All of the town of Cottonwood has to be completely caught up in the water issue. You can't. Some might be threatened by this study. There's a lot of people that, and you're always going to have that. A lot of it is the mentality that was carried a long time ago of this is what we do with it and everybody else, you're not doing this or that.

Ideas you have that can make the Verde River a focal point for regional economic development?Brand the Verde River. Brand Cottonwood as a river town. However, we need to blend in, this has become the wine mecca right around Cottonwood here, the whole Verde Valley, tie in the river with Cottonwood, with the wine. Cottonwood's a river town. To truly do this, we've got to make it a river town. It's one thing to say it, but we've got to go out and make it happen. Get all the people, the state

park playing in the same arena here. Getting the town of Cottonwood, the ditch owners, everybody who has a water vice into the same as going out. We are a river town, a water town, a recreational mecca that's centered around water in the desert. You way water in the desert and you will watch people go what?? They don't realize that there's water in the desert. This is a high desert oasis. Out of Africa wouldn't be here unless it was the Verde River. Alcantera wouldn't be here unless it was the Verde River. The state park would not be there. The town of Cottonwood would not be down here. The mine would have never been here. Jerome would have never, ever existed. You've got to have water to process and do all this stuff. Look at the massive infrastructure out there that nobody ever even sees out that Tapco road. You look at that. It's all right along the river. Verde Canyon Railroad wouldn't exist. There would be no canyon without the river. It's a pretty canyon, but it's pretty ugly with no water. There would be no bald eagles. All the little things that they taught, it wouldn't be happening. All of this is tied in. Completely so there's no, really developing a very sharp, sexy, fun brand that brings all of this together. The river, the incredibly community wanting and fun. We're sitting in the back yard of what is going to be one of the biggest towns in the world...Phoenix. And those people are all looking for where can I go to get out of here for the weekend. We're an hour and a half from their home. That's nothing for these guys. And that's the rest of the people. They're going to come, they're just going to be here. People see that and they want to be there.

Lived here since '92. Interacts with the river...business; I'm a water person, I go down to the river and let go. That's my meditation. It's very spiritual place for me to be. I submerge myself in some of these holes. Send all my troubles down the magic carpet of liquid energy. There's so many sections. You go under massive canopies...feels like you're in the Amazon. You have 50-100 yard stretch where it's think. You don't realize there's homes over there, really feel like you're nowhere. You don't seem homes particularly in the spring and fall.

If you had $5M, how would you spend it on behalf of the Verde River?I'd go to Washington DC and I'd get the finest lobbyist firm that I could possibly buy. Let them know that there are sacred envelopes available and what we need to do is create a dam above Cottonwood in the Sycamore Canyon, above Sycamore Canyon, and create a recreational lake right outside of Cottonwood that's holding back gazillions amount of water. Then we have a controlled release that provides us with year around water through the Verde Valley, just like the Colorado River does for the Glen Canyon Dam through the Grand Canyon. That water wouldn't exist in the summertime. They couldn't boat the Grand Canyon in your drought years at all. This provides them with a continuous guarantee of economic sustainable thing because you have something capturing water and then slowly releasing, creating hydroelectric power. I see that as being doable. Think of Cottonwood Lake. However you want to look at that. Right now that gorge has nothing in there. There's nothing up there for miles. But here's lake now. Here's a collection of water that would provide a year around guaranteed flow. Fishing, trout stream, boating, kayaking, and guaranteed flow, and supply of water for the community. Here's drinking water and for our neighbors. That gorge is perfect for that. When you look at that gorge, it's...I'm sure SRP has already done all this stuff. They've already looked at all these things. At one time, that was on their agenda. It would be good for them. This water does not belong to us. We can use it, but all this water is owned by SRP. This here water is their stuff. They'll let you use it, but it's got to go back into base flow. That's why they let the farms here use it because they know it's coming back into...it's not being transported away anywhere. Eventually where this ends up is Phoenix. From Phoenix, it's going back into the ground, it's heading back down the Colorado, whatever. I could see this as being an entire...look at any community throughout the west that has a dam released river next to it. That detrifies year around. Drought years, flood years, flood control, the whole bit. It provides year around economic opportunity, plus you control the flood plain. You no longer have these massive floods that

are going to be coming down through this valley wreaking incredible havoc if you don't live up to it. Now you've got this whole economy of going steady flow, predictable flow, and now insurance companies will allow you to build out where years ago they were going no. When you have a dam that's built with all the specs to it, they're going to go great. This land that was unusable before, now it becomes usable. Now we can build a hotel, a golf course, whatever it is that can be built in these massive areas that have to be left alone because when the Verde is in flood stage, this is the Mississippi. It's the most unbelievable thing I've ever seen. It's huge. Once that factor's eliminated, you're no longer going to have...sure you'll have big water releases to deal with the flows, but once that's gone, here comes everybody able to own this land and do something.

Anybody else to interview?Let us know

Anything about this study concern you?It's all good. Everybody is moving in that direction. Everybody that you're interviewing right now...ask them if they've ever been on the Verde River. Do you really understand what it is? It's one thing to understand it and to go down and hike around it, but have you ever been on it. Do you know where it goes? Do you know where you glide through? I'd love to offer something where everybody who's believing we can do something, when this is all done, we'll do a road trip.

Doug interviews Andy Groseta, March 17, 2011, his office, wdartranch@qwestoffice.net, 634-4333, okay to record, would like to approve

Q 1: What do you think are the most significant factors influencing the health of the Verde River system?I'm going to talk about pluses and minuses at the same time. The river is the life blood of the Verde Valley, of north central Arizona really from where it starts up at Paulden, then runs down into the Salt east of Phoenix, Fountain Hills, east of Scottsdale That not only provides a resource to those of us who are fortunate to live right here right on the banks of the Verde. Also provides a resource for folks not only in the immediate area, but for our friends down south in the metropolis's Salt River Valley and all through agricultural purposes and domestic purposes and industrial purposes. It originates as a thread that runs through the center part of the state that has a lot of positive attributes. The settlement in this valley and this part of the country, as is true anywhere in the west, is along streams and rivers as the Verde. All of us need water to live whether it be man or beast. The history here in the Verde Valley was Jerome then the copper camp. That was a source of jobs and Jerome at one time was the third largest city in Arizona with 15,000 people. That there really initiated the development of production agriculture for the Verde Valley whether it be along the Verde or any of its tributaries, Oak Creek, Clear Creek, Beaver Creek, where farmers and the ranchers provided the food and fiber to feed those people. Whether it be people in the dairy business, people in the cattle business such as our family. My family started in the business in middle Verde and they provided food and fiber for the miners in Jerome. I don't know how long you want me to elaborate. My grandfather and my father had cattle, sheep, turkeys, chickens, milk cows. They raised all kinds of vegetables, fruit trees. They told stories that they would load the wagon up at the ranch at middle Verde and it would be an all day trip on a wagon trail hauling all of the goods to Jerome. They'd peddle all the food products, spend a night or two there and when the wagon was empty, they'd head back to the ranch. That was typical for a lot of the families, whether they be the Grosetas, the Kovacavich family, the Jordans in Sedona with the Sedona apples. That's what really started production agriculture in the Verde Valley. Along with that, most of the farm and ranch headquarters in the valley were located up and down the river. Farm and ranch headquarters

where cattle are grazed on the uplands on both sides of the Verde. Not only here but, you know, throughout the entire watershed. For the most part, the headquarters are always located on or near whether it be Clear Creek, Beaver Creek, Oak Creek or the Verde. Just made sense. At that time, when the White man came here, some of these irrigation systems were developed by the white folks and others were such as the Cottonwood Ditch were developed by the Native American people. They took those irrigation systems and built upon them and enhanced them and made them better so they could use the water out of the river to produce the crops of food and fiber to feed not only themselves but back in those times, to feed the populace of Jerome. The Cottonwood Ditch was developed by the later Indians (than the Anasazi). Right there in the area between the bridge at Tuzigoot, down to where the present site is where the dam it now. They took those irrigation systems made them better, improved them. So that's where the agriculture got started in valley. So our family got started in the agriculture and cattle business. It continued to grow. That was what really perpetuated the irrigation of farmland in the Verde Valley just by the population of people to feed that was right here in the mining camp in Jerome. That was the job base. That's what attracted people to the region, the copper camp. People had to eat and so they had to produce it. With that over a period of time, the mine shut down, the smelter shut down. The Verde Valley was very depressed back in the early '50s, even early '60s, and then Phoenix Cement came in and built a plant here for the project of the Glen Canyon Dam up in Page that created Lake Powell. The agriculture community has always been here and I tell people that as you look out the window any direction here in the Verde Valley, you're looking at somebody's ranch. People don't realize that as you look at the landscape to see slag line, the red rocks, the black hills. It's beautiful country, but they don't connect the dots. There's actually agriculture out there. There's someone's ranch where they're running cattle producing in this case beef. Most of the area edges on the creek system here in the valley. Not all of them, but a lot of them have been subdivided because of growth. Subdivided into ranchettes. People move here because of the quality of life. Once of the major reasons they move here is because of the Verde River and its life blood of the valley. Always has been. Nobody loves the river more than Andy Groseta. I grew up on it as a kid, swam in it, fished in it, have ridden every inch of it from Beasley Flats all the way to Stoneman Lake many times horseback. Our family ran cattle on the river from Tapco by Clarkdale all the way down to Camp Verde for years, years, and years. I think I know probably as much about the area as anybody, because I've been there. The river's been very important to our family, important to me. I've been involved in agriculture and a lot of water related activities and organizations. It's just natural that I realize the importance of it. I sometimes get a little frustrated because people move here for that reason and they...not only do I deal with the Verde, but with public land grazing issues throughout the west...people come to an area and they say this is beautiful, let's move here. The first thing they want to do is overly protect it. They don't even recognize that there's a user or users out there using that resource, whether it be grazing, farming, gravel mining, recreation, whatever the use may be, and I'm talking more about the natural resource industry uses, they don't recognize that so let's preserve what we've got, let's protect it, and along with that comes the unintended consequences where eventually because of the rules and regulations, the existing uses either partially go away or totally go away. That's what I call unintended consequences. A lot of people don't realize that until after it's all after the facts so to speak. Case in point. There's been two industries, one is totally gone, the other is totally gone so far as a use on the river system. One is the sand and gravel mining operations. We all know why those started and why they're gone. I always mention the fact that the most renewal resource is the grass that we grow out there for the cows to consume. The resource of the river being sand and gravel. I know that's been a very contentious issue between users and people who would like to protect the system. There's pluses and minuses on both side. I think it's a resource that was there, has gone away. There might have been times where the use of that particular resource probably could have been improved upon so it wouldn't have had such an impact on the environment. It's like everything else, the pendulum swings from one side totally all the

way over to the other and it may never come back to the middle. We talk about the economic value of the river. When the sand and gravel folks were forced out of the river, we all know where they went, they went up to the uplands, it cost more money for the material. The material is not as good quality. All those pass down, additional costs are passed down to the consumer, you and me. Whether you're building a building for a shopping center or building a brand new home, it's a cost of materials that go up. As those folks have been gone, you really can't find any sign that those folks have been in the river. Some of the most prolific stands of cottonwoods and willows are where those sand and gravel operations were. It's ironic because people will want to protect the river and we'd like to have more trees, more vegetation, but I caution people on the trees thing because they trees need to have a balance. Where the sand and gravel folks were, especially after they first pulled out, there was a lot of vegetation to come back. We have trees and vegetation that compete for sun and water. Trees drink a lot of water. There has to be a balance there. When you totally remove that use, we just had an onslaught of vegetation. When we talk about economic development of the Verde Valley where it applies to the river, at least put that back on the table to have discussions, I know that's an issue that a lot of folks don't like to talk about. They think we've got that one checked off the list. If we're going to talk economic growth and prosperity in the Verde Valley, I feel that there's with good management, there is a balance where we can still have that activity in the river system without adversely impacting the river system. I would like to put that back on the table. I know a lot of people don't want to put it on the table. I think if it's done right, there's a place for it and we definitely need it and it will definitely be a motivator and incentive to encourage growth here in the valley. It's replenished with sand and gravel. You don't even know the operation was there. There's nothing more renewal than that and it's good, clean material, high quality materials. That's one particular use of the system that was there and it gone. If we're going to tie it to economic growth in the valley, I would like to entertain that again. Put it on the table when the time is right to do that.The other use of the system, not only the river system but the uplands system itself, is the grazing issues. With us being in the cattle business, this is management. I'm talking about management, whether it be the sand and gravel mining or grazing or timber or irrigation, it's management...man's influence on the system and the environment. As long as you have good management, I believe all of these things are doable and feasible. If you have poor management, fair management, terrible management, then it's not good for the system, business, the businesses involved, the impact on the environment. A little bit about grazing. Grazing on the river system and all forest lands in this particular area had been totally removed in 1997. That was done without a NEPA and that's a major federal action that the agency does something like that. I can tell you that grazing on the river, and we've grazed cattle on the river for decades, our family has and other families have. From a year around situation to a winter dormant use only to totally non-existent. I would like to put that issue back on the table. The cattlemen in this state firmly believe that there's a place for grazing on the river system, if it's done right. Again, like I talked about with the sand and gravel. Removing grazing off the river system did more harm to this river system and the species we're trying to save than good. The major reason that grazing was removed off the lease of the Prescott National Forest was to protect the species the Spikedace and the Loach minnow. Prior to grazing being totally banned off the river system, there were populations of both of those species on the river. After grazing was removed in 1997, it wasn't too long thereafter that the population of the Spikedace went from what it was to each year they monitored that down to zero. It's zero today. Some of the most healthy habitat on the river is on some private holdings on the river where they do still have grazing. I view that as a taking. I as a taxpayer. When the federal agency, number one removed grazing without a NEPA, I think that's wrong. They're being challenged on that. Number 2, when the species that they're trying to save due to an action that they took without doing a NEPA is totally eradicated, that is a taking by the federal agency. They would hold you and me as private citizens as responsible for that, accountable for that. When grazing is no longer there, what happens is

the river, the native fish, they love the ripples. They love the ripples, they love the daylight. When you eliminate grazing, you have deep pools of water, deep banks, and that's where the non-natives survive. Bank cuts...when cattle were there or wildlife, the banks are sloughed off and there's ripples where cattle cross and use the river. There have been many studies by the Rocky Mountain Researchers Foundation out of the Flagstaff...Al Medina has been a leader on that. Those studies now are under peer review with the agency. I find it a bit ironic that you have one arm of the USDA, one are of the US Forest Service, who has done a study and basically the study concludes what I just shared with you that because total non-grazing, non-use, these species have gone away. If you want to perpetuate the species, let's introduce grazing back into the system and get this thing started again. They seem to ignore that. I'm told that one of the reasons is because they're waiting for the peer review and I understand that it's just about completed. The ranching community has asked that agency to graze, to create a pilot study program, the US Forest Service, Prescott National Forest. To initiate a program to let us look at a managed controlled grazing and try some things out. The agency has not entertained that idea and the answer is no, we're not going to do it. I find that disturbing because of what I just shared with you. The species was there with the prior use and I think that there is a place to graze in riparian habitats whether it be a river system or a spring area where we either have perennial springs, or ephemeral springs. There is a place for grazing and it has to be managed. Those are two uses on the system. One has totally gone away. The other one has gone away at least on the river system and grazing is still utilized in the uplands. We as citizens, all of us would love to make sure that the species that are here continue, and we want to do this right. When you just arbitrarily eliminate some uses without doing an assessment of the entire situation, they just arbitrarily did that because of pressures from some groups. I find that a little disturbing. Not to say that it's all good and it's all bad. There's a balance and what I'm saying is a need for good management. I think both of those uses and disciplines could be brought back to the table and should be a part of what we're talking about to make this place a better place to live, not only the Verde Valley, but Arizona. After all, and I'll wear my cowman's hat, it is that cow, the only creature out there that can take radiant energy, sunlight, grow grass, the sunlight grows the feed, that cow will graze that and convert it into protein that you and I can eat, whether it be a steak, hamburger, or roast. So you talk about something that's renewable, something's that sustainable, there's nothing more renewable and sustainable than that domestic animal, the cow. We all have systems in place, management systems, and that fits a particular piece of country. What works on my ranch may not work on the ranch 30 miles from here. It's fine tuned for a particular ranch and we all can improve, there's no question about that. There's a lot of things happening on the land from the farmer and the rancher. When I see a couple of pieces just kind of plopped away for the sake of "to protect the river system", they're not protecting the river system. When I say that, I'll move in a little different area now, is when you exclude grazing from the domestic animals, and you exclude sand and gravel mining operations, what happens to the vegetation in any river system? It overgrows. When you walk down the river now, you have to take your machete to blaze the trail if you want to go from point A to point B. I used to ride up and down this river many times and now you can't hardly walk down the river to hike it. You can't hardly ride it horseback from here to Camp Verde without getting out of the system. I mean you've got to literally get out of the river system up on the uplands to go down the country. What's happened is the river system is totally over-vegetated with trees, shrubs, all kinds of vegetation, plants and that's going to lead to two problems. One, it's going to suck the river system dry and we're talking about preserving or saving the river system, with especially all of the trees. In the summertime, it just sucks the river system dry. That's an issue that most folks when they move here, they just don't recognize that. The plants need to have a drink just like you and I do and when the river system is just overpopulated with a lot of woody species, the drink a lot of water. We're talking about protecting the river system, we at least need to put that on the table and have that discussion. It is creating a major adverse impact to this river, it's a threat to the system. The other thing that I would

like to talk about is because of all of this density of vegetation, if we ever have an event and it doesn't have to be as big as the flood of 1993, we're going to have flooding and damage of private property that we've never seen before here in the Verde Valley. That's because the river system is choked up with vegetation. No one likes green better than Andy Groseta, whether trees or green grass. But, just like everything else, too much of a good thing is not good. We have to think about that and we as leaders in this valley need to have that discussion if that creates unintended consequences when you take a use off. I tell people that move here the reason that anybody moves here is because of the beautiful Verde Valley, not only the vistas and the scenic views and the view shed, but because of this river. When you come here and you want to protect it, you all of a sudden say let's get rid of this use, let's get rid of that use. It's all for the sake of protecting it. You're doing it more harm than good. People don't realize that until after it happens, and then it's almost too late or maybe too late to do something about it. I would like to raise the awareness level and talk about educating the public, to have those issues on the table and at least have a discussion for nothing else than to make them aware of it. They don't have to support it or be against it, but make them aware of it. Most people can come to the conclusion on their own if you put all the facts of the table. And say, "maybe we ought to think about something, whatever it may be." That's part of the education process. I find people...we've got sand and gravel mining out of the river...that's great and check them off the list. We accomplished something...we being whoever we are. Yep, cattle raising now is off the river. That's great, we don't have to step in a cow pie any more now when we're hiking or having a picnic on the riverbank. That's great, that's a big win. The unintended consequences of these issues I just shared with you. The species that they're trying to save, despite this, is no longer there. The trees, the dense vegetation, to me, I think that is one of the biggest threats to the Verde River system. It's the dense vegetation we have on the river. It's going to do two things. It's going to take command of water assumption and it's going to create, when we do have a flood event, major, major damage. We're going to see water where we've never seen it before. That's simply because the river system choked up. You've been around here a long time. You know if you have an event, a flood event, it's not a major, but it's a medium event, what does it do to the river channel? Kind of opens it up, doesn't it. Then if you have another event that's even considerably larger, the impact may not be as bad as the first smaller event, and that's because the first event really cleared out all of the trees, the grass, and the vegetation and had a place for the water to flow. Those are 2 things that I see as major issues that we need, all of us whether you're a leader as the mayor of the town of Clarkdale, or I as leader as a citizen in this valley, we need to put those issues on the table and have a discussion and enlighten people about what I see are real problems. I think people once they're made aware of what the issue is and the impact to the system, they're going to scratch their head and say "we need to revisit this. What can we do to help this out?" As I said, I'm not advocating opening up the entire river system to sand and gravel operations just full bore. Same thing with grazing. It has to be managed and there's a fine balance. There's a place for all of this. If we want to live here and have our kids continue to live here and our grandkids, you know we want costs to build whatever the housing for whatever the growth is going to be here in north central Arizona. If we can cheapen up the construction costs, that's better for all of us. (similar to forest fires in the ponderosa forests... They stimulate a much healthier community. Whether you take your lawn mower to cut your lawn, your pruners to cut your fruit trees, it's the same thing. We think about let's preserve, let's protect and it's total overkill and we're doing ourselves more harm than good and that to me, we have to get ourselves out of the mindset. The only way I see that we can move that mindset or change it is to educate the public and that's the kind of discussions you and I are having here this morning. Like Nature Conservancy has said that we need ungulates out there, we don't have bison any more, but we have cattle. Something to go out there and cut the plants. You can manage grazing and sand and gravel mining. You do it right. And the same thing for irrigation systems. We haven't talked much about irrigation systems. A lot of people feel like we ought to remove the ditches, but I can tell you that if you fly over the Verde Valley and the

west where you have a similar river system, wherever you see irrigation, what happens to that river? That river turns into a green belt. It flairs out and you enhance and create more habitat. There's pluses and minuses to that. I look at it as a major plus. You create the habitat, you enhance the habitat. Plus what people don't realize, some people do, but a lot of people don't, is any irrigation system, especially when you don't have concrete on top of the system, you recharge the system. That irrigation system recharges the system. If we didn't have irrigation in this valley from all these ditch companies, the river would be just a narrow river, a riparian area, and as far as recharge to the surrounding parts refeed the system, it would be totally nonexistent. Then we talk about wildlife, we talk about birds, we talk about people coming out and being able to experience the river...whether birds, taking a hike, ride a canoe down the river. All of this to me is a plus. It all adds up. They're all building blocks to the system. Irrigation is important. Not only for the production of agriculture part to raise food and fiber like we talked before, but also adds value to the riparian system. It creates the greenbelt, enhances the greenbelt. That flycatcher or that blue heron or the peregrine falcon or that whatever, you see them everywhere. Everywhere you see them on these irrigated properties up and down whether you're on the Gila or the Verde or the Salt, wherever you go. The habitat is enhanced. (remembering what the river was like in the '60s). It's not a healthier system now. One thing that I have mixed emotions about is under the umbrella of preserve and protect again. We have the government acquiring properties, private properties, to "protect" whatever the environment is there. To me, I have mixed feelings about that. I'm not going to be talking about the economics of taking the property off the tax rolls, but I have mixed feelings about what the impact is to what I'm trying to save and protect. What happens when a government agency acquires a farmer's rights along a creek bottom or anywhere? Or in a created wildlife area? All of a sudden, you put them on the radar screen of the public. I've seen properties that the government has acquired all over this state and all over the west. It raises the awareness of that habitat wherever it may be and it creates a people impact problem. It degrades the environment. A case in point, Black Canyon where Black Canyon dumps in the Verde River here between Cottonwood and Camp Verde. That was a piece of private land a section in there acquired by the US Forest Service. One of the first things that they did when they acquired that property is they put restroom down there, put a road down there so you can actually drive to it. We used to run cattle down through there, so I saw this first hand. It went from an area like you were talking about when you were a kid and I was a kid, to an area that is totally trashed out by people. There's nothing more disgusting to me than to see dirt bikes, ATVs, 4-wheel drive pickups driving up and down the river. Driving down the banks, up the banks, just having all kinds of fun. Is that why the forest service acquired the property? I thought they acquired the property to preserve, enhance what we had there as far as the river system. It went from a protected, choice, what I call beautiful place, the system was functioning to a place that is totally gutted out. That's one case in point. Another case in point is up at the headwaters of the Verde River, the old Cooper Morgan ranch. There are a couple of inholdings that the US Forest Service acquired back in the mid-90s where the gas line crosses the Verde. I've been up and down through there. Those were private land holdings. I managed that ranch there in the private land holdings. We kept the public out of there because it was private property. We posted it, we patrolled it, and we watched it. That habitat was pristine. It was beautiful. One of the first things that happened is that after the US government, the US forest service acquired those inholdings. Same problem. It became a people problem. You could go down there and see where people were...you couldn't keep the people out unless you had a 24-hour security guard. People go down there with their ATVs, their pickups, dirt bikes, you name it, and doing roadies and whatever and trash the place up. They dump refrigerators and garbage and you name it. It has an adverse impact to the land. That's why I have mixed emotions about the government acquiring properties. Organizations acquiring properties is sometimes they're getting “lieu of” and the federal government meets up with them. I think everybody starts out...we all have it in our hearts that we want to preserve and protect and that's why we're doing it. That's the unintended consequence...you create

a people problem. The people come. You have a people input problem or impact problem and that's an adverse impact. Now if that was monitored and balanced, you know we could make this system work. Those are just two examples. I've seen it with my own eyes and I've had to deal with it personally. It's just makes me sick. That system down there at Y Canyon and the river is...I don't have any enjoyment or fun going to the Verde River. The reason I said that is because it's not like it used to be. Where it was open, you could see. I'm not saying that to defend grazing. I'm just saying the system was healthy and it was because of some events in place. What I'm saying is that those uses are gone now and we see what we've got. Maybe what we were doing back then wasn't all bad. That's all I'm trying to say. When the government acquired these properties: 1. is in Arizona, we...when I was a kid growing up we were only 17% around the state was private property. Now it depends on where the figures come from...anywhere from 13-16%. Private lands are being acquired by Native Americans, US Government, the Arizona state government, all for the sake of doing good for the public. My point is I think if you want to keep the area and the environment the way we think it ought to be, or should be, or is. You need to have man's influence which is management there that's managed properly to keep it the way it is. I've seen too many cases at point that I'm sharing with you in this interview. When you take man's management out, the use out, the system deteriorates. It becomes a...the system was much healthier 30-40 years ago, I think. Even 20 years ago, than it is today. Simply because the uses have been totally pulled out and the fact that government acquisition of parcels is creating the awareness that we've got this now, want to come see it. Fossil Creek is a prime example of that. It's another one. That's probably the one you hear more about than these other two. But these other two that I've been intimately involved with just because I've managed cattle on both of those places. Where you create public awareness, all the people come to see it and they trash it. Then we have a mess. We need to have that discussion. We, being all of us as community leaders. May be it be used whether it's for sand and gravel mining, whether it be grazing, or forest controlled burns, and the watershed. We need to put all those issues back on the table and a few of us that were around a few years ago share that the river system was much healthier back then. You could enjoy it. Now it's such a fight to even get down into even see it. What can you see? It's just not the way it used to be. It's because of the management. Management's the bottom line. I always tell people, man's influence is management. As long as we have good management, proper management, there's a place for all of this. When you remove management from the landscape, whether it be grazing, sand and gravel mining, fire, we have issues before us. I think we need to educate our own people on what we ought to be doing and we'll let them make up their minds. After all, the people, the voting public creates policy for this country whether it be here locally, countywide, state or national. I think if there's only one thing your group can do is to educate the community, educate the people that live here about some issues and I think that would be a great service. Not an agenda, put everything on the table, and let's just have good discussion, pros and cons and let it run its course. No one's there for a particular agenda. I'm not going to be there to promote grazing or promote sand and gravel mining. I can tell you from personal experience that with both of those uses, the river system was much healthier. So let's talk about it and if they don't want to go there, that's fine. We, being all of us, have to live the consequence. The consequences is our system is going to become more and more unhealthy. We may not have a system. I'm concerned of the river going dry because of all the vegetation. I really am. The trees are sucking the river dry. I tell people that and they think I'm whistling Dixie. Those trees suck a lot of water out of the river. I can tell you, share with you, a family experience. My grandfather down on the Verde where Hayfield Draw drops into the Verde was our first headquarters. There were no large cottonwood trees there. People have the idea that the Verde 50-60-100 years ago had big, giant cottonwoods just climbing up and down. We had pictures until our headquarters house burned down, I've seen pictures, where down in the Hayfield area, there was one or two large cottonwood trees and you had a big, old landscape. You could see the river bottom and so when people say we want to get the system back the way it used to be, there idea is

the utopian world of big cottonwood trees growing. Yeah, there are some cottonwood trees there, large grandpas, but it was not infiltrated with them. I can tell you right there where we live right now on the Verde River where our headquarters is in Bridgeport, my grandfather used to say all the time, he could tiptoe across the Verde River there at our place in June and July and August. He's passed on. Mr. Jordan who was our neighbor said the same thing. People have the idea that at one time the Verde River was this raging river. It was nothing more than it was today. I don't think it's any less now or any more than it was back then. But it was a healthier system because of the uses and we need to just educate the citizenry here of what it used to be like. So when they think the river was something that ran half the size of the Colorado, the Verde River never was that and never will be that. So it's being sucked dry right now with all the domestic wells being drilled. The trees are doing a lot more damage than the vegetation and the wells. You know this as well as I do, there's more water leaving the Verde Valley than there is coming into the Verde Valley even with all the wells we've drilled. It's hard to get people to start thinking about that because let's protect it, let's preserve it, let's shut everything down and look at it. That's the worst thing that you can do to land, whether a river system, riparian system, or range land, there has to be management in place. Good management. It's just like any other business. There's good managers and poor managers. There are people who own hardware stores that are poor managers or gas stations or hotels or restaurants. And there's other people who are excellent managers and they can come along and take that thing and really run it right. The same thing is true in agriculture. I'm not saying that everybody has done a perfect job. There's good ones and bad ones in every profession. All that I'm saying is that there needs to be a good balance and with proper and good management, there's a place for sand and gravel mining, grazing, fire. All of that helps the environment. We talk about stewardship. Nothing makes me more disturbed than to go out on our ranch and just see what is being done...and I'm getting a little off base from the Verde River, but it affects the Verde River...it is affecting and will affect it in an adverse way. That's all the recreational vehicles, all terrains, on the uplands. Not only in the system as I described it to you whether it be at the headwaters or anywhere or Clarkdale or Tapco, you've seen what they've done there. Just every place up and down the river. Where people can get to the river, they seem to think we'll drive in there and have all kinds of fun. Those are kinds of things that are taking place and my concern is not only the river system, but what's happening away from the river system? That is the all-terrain vehicle and dirt bike use and 4-wheel drive, but mostly ATV and dirt bike use of the land. There's a spider web of trails being formed out there every weekend throughout not only this watershed, but throughout the west on federal land. I can tell you that the ATV campground at Hayfield Draw and Hwy. 260, that's a rock throw from the Verde River, I told the forest service that that area is located in one of the most highly erodable areas in the Verde Valley as far as soil structure. We have all of this activity going on down there. It's a moonscape now. There is no vegetation. It's totally denuded. That's not because of cows, or fire, or people walking out there and taking a picnic. It's because of mechanized, motorized vehicle activity. The silt that's created off of that runs off to create the erosion problem at the site and also you create a silt problem with the run off to the Verde River. I've told many people, sand and gravel mining is history in the Verde Valley. We know why they're history. That's because of the muddy water going back into the river. That's what threw them out. That's what's going to happen to these folks, these users. Another set of users. No one seems to listen. The agency just goes in one ear and out the other and they say we have not enough money in the budget to monitor and to enforce. To me, that is a raging fire that is out of control. It's an epidemic, it's a cancer that's out of control. Not only locally in the Verde Valley. I don't care if you go on the east side of the Verde on Mogollon Rim or the west. Go outside of Prescott and you have the same problem. It doesn't make any small town of the west or major big town where you have a population base. One of the reasons people come here is to look at that blue sky and look at this beautiful country. Today's Thursday, so tomorrow afternoon, those folks load up the ATVs and dirt bikes on a flatbed trailer and mom will pack a lunch and we're going to go out

and have fun. And we do. I can take an ATV and anybody can go across a piece of range land and very seldom you can even tell that you've been there. You can put another guy in an ATV or dirt bike and you can tell he's been everywhere. To me that's another issue we talk about the Verde River and the impact. That is impacting this water shed and the Verde River with the erosion and the run off and the silt problems created, we talk about water quality issues. There is not discussion as to where is the water quality issue regarding use of recreational vehicles on federal lands. It's a major problem. It's a tough problem to get their hands on because the agency has endorsed it. I'm not here to say there's not a place for it. We need to have a place for it. All that I'm saying is let's look at the impact. If it's 80 acres or 160 acres of sectional land, have at it folks. But if we catch you outside, we're going to cite you. The way it is now, you can go to this trailhead and you can end up in Prescott or Prescott Basin. You can end up on the top of Mingus, in Cherry, in Cordes Junction, in Dugas all from Hayfield. It's a network of trails. Where I run cows out there, I can tell you after every weekend, and I've given up taking pictures. I've taken gillions of pictures. There are new trails and networks. You know how we all are...man in general...you see a steep hill , that’s a challenge, isn't it? Let's see if we can drive it. Before you know it, I've got a track, you come along and see it and say “where's that go?” Then you have a road and a trail. I call them wildcat trails. It's just like a spider web to the entire forest. That is doing more harm to our environment that any of the systems in this state known. I'm saying not to abolish or ban it, but we need restrictions in that area and then, I've asked the agency, what are we going to do for ranch restoration. What are we doing to heal some of the damage? Just to get them to talk about it is like pushing a string but not pulling it. The Verde front, this recreation thing that is come into place, and I'd participate in those meetings. I'd throw water on it. Let's talk about range, river, reveg, restoration projects. What are we going to do to minimize the damage and the impact to the environment now. Not talk about inviting more and having more miles of trails. To me it's ludicrous the agency can't manage the problem they have now but yet they're encouraging more of it. It all goes back to policy. We need to put side boards on some of these things. Agencies need direction. Personnel in agencies are like a pendulum, it swings from one side to the other. It was one side heavy with multiple use over the years, now it's going heavy, heavy recreation and everything else is kind of back there somewhere. Really we talk about management of lands, there is very little management taking place on federal lands. Most of the management taking place is by that farmer or rancher. That's the only eyes and ears that's out there. Most of the folks, and not to be critical of them, are in their office, sitting behind their computer, looking at computer driven models. I've got a study here that they put something there on the Prescott National Forest. It's all computer-driven. When you ask them “have you gone out and ground-truthed these sites?” No, that's the next phase. Yet, they're making decisions based on models that are not ground-truthed. I don't want to be overly critical of these agencies. We need the agencies, but there is not real good management taking place. Case in point, the recreational off-road vehicle use on uplands. When you talk about the health of the Verde River system, that is something that probably not very many people will call to your attention. It is a major, major impact, adverse impact to the river system on both sides. (If we don't get control of this pretty soon, it's gone). As my dad used to say, once you turn the horses out, they're out. It's a big job to go gather them up. That's where we're at. That's one of the reasons we formed VWA, the Verde Watershed Association. I was one of the founding members of that. Back in the dark ages. Jay Wilkinson of the Running W Ranch there at Granite Dells. He was one of the founding member, too. And Jay was on that side of the mountain and I was on this side. A bunch of us got together having the same kind of discussions you and I are having right now. What can we do to enlighten folks and bring us together. This thing has been such a lightning rod issue and it's polarized camps. Back then the camps were polarized, but they're not nothing like they are today. They're worse. Because that group is created to skin the cat and solve exactly what we're talking about, to address that issue. We did make some progress. We really did. Because we had folks in the upper stretches of the

Verde, in the Prescott area, the Verde area, we were having discussions. We began to trust one another. If you don't trust one another, you can't talk about any of this stuff. That's step one. We've got to be able to trust one another. That's a big reason for a lot of this of where we are today. It got so volatile. The catalyst was the Yavapai Ranch land exchange, the Ruskin land exchange. That just kind of threw the match over there in the can. It really polarized the camps. It's been a downhill slide since then. I know the WAC was created, I've set on the WAC. You know the complexion of the WAC as well as I do. The composition of the WAC. You see it in people and you know what we used to tell them at the WAC meetings a long time ago. We all had an opinion. When you come into this room, you need to check it out at the door. Then we can sit around this table and talk. With that you can develop a relationship and trust. But people come to a meeting, they all have an agenda, nobody trusts anybody, nobody from this side trusts that side and they don't trust us over here. So that's why I quit going to all meetings. Because it's an exercise in futility. We're going to talk about all of these studies earlier before we started the interview. It's going to take strong leadership and you can't do it just with a group of people from one side of the mountain or the other. I see this as a two-fold issue. The most critical thing is that we've got to bridge the gap between upper and middle Verde River valley and lower Verde Valley. That is step 1. Step 2 is we have to enlighten and have discussion on the things you and I were just talking about. Issues that are local but yet regional. It reaches on both sides of the mountain. But some of these are more specific here than they are over there. You don't have the sand and gravel mining issue over there on the Verde like we have over here. You can't have that discussion until you kind of build the bridge, the umbrella. What I'm saying is, if you've got good folks that want to go and hold hands and listen, check our opinions out at the door, and you don't have it on the other side of the mountain, we just can't. You've got to have like-minded people who may be in two different camps and don't agree on anything, who will say, O.K., let's just drop our swords, our opinions and if we're going to do what's right, we all love the river, we all love this watershed. We need to put our personal opinions and just set them aside, and for some people that's hard to do. You'll hear someone say, "Yeah, I'll do it. I'll come to meetings." And then somebody speaks up with "Ah, hell, he's got an agenda" or "She's got an agenda." There you go, it's just that mindset that's working it. You, me and everybody else. I’m guilty of it just as much as some of the other folks. So, you know, we started to make some progress. I'm really sad to see that the WAC is just kind of gone by the wayside, although there's an effort to revitalize it. I honestly feel when the WAC was created, it was politicized, for a lack of a better word. And politics come into play, it really muddies the water. Everybody's wearing the company hat. You're wearing the hat for the Town of Clarkdale and these folks over here. Those guys on the other side of the mountain are doing the same thing. So it makes it real difficult just to talk about how do we make things better. I think the WAC has done some good things. I think the studies that you mentioned, they did some excellent studies. But I don't see it going anywhere because the politics is getting in the way. The politics is in the way. It's going to have to come...the other sad thing is when all of that was happening, I don't like what that group is doing so I'm going to go home over my kitchen table or over in my office and I'm going to start another group. These water groups are a dime a dozen, there's lots of them. To me, that's another problem. We're fragmented. You know, we need to have, I don't care what you call it, we need to have one group period. We're way too fragmented. I don't like what you're thinking, Doug. And I don't agree with you, so I'm going to go start my group. That's not what's good for us. We're all here wanting to see this Verde continue to be the beautiful Verde that we've known before. We want to improve it because I think it's really gone downhill, as we've shared. We want to improve it, and we've got to get some like-minded people together to talk about it. When you're upset or you don't agree, don't pick up all your marbles and go home. Leave your marbles on the table. The things that we can't agree on, as I said before, let's just kick them off over there in the corner. And the things we can talk about, let's talk about. Even if it's only one. That's better than where we're at today. I'm a busy guy, and I just don't have the time and energy to go to all these meetings and nothing happens. You're

relationship with Senator Pierce, that's a step in the right direction. I think that may be what starts some of this. The well's been poisoned. When I say the well, the people are polarized. You have camps. I think you need new players. You don't have the right chemistry to pull it together...you or me. I'm not just talking about you. For all this, for the sake to protect the Verde, to protect this resource. I'm talking about conserving it, enhancing it. Those are much better words because when you protect something, people have this mindset like to take all of the uses off and throw them away and let's manage man's influence. Then it's going to be better. That's the worse thing you can do to the resource. When you have not management taking place. I think we need, if we can't get together with the players we have now, we need some folks that can be a small group that are willing to go start the campfire again. The wood's gotta be dry. I don't want to sound critical of the folks that are there, because they're all there for the right reason. But everyone is there wearing their company hat. The WAC group is all political appointees. The big beef I've had, not only with that group, something I like about Verde Watershed is people have come to me many times saying, "Andy, get more private property users there, get more ditch company people there, get more farmers and ranchers there." That's easier said than done. Why can't we get those people there? Once thing with the WAC, when it first started, there was more participation from town key citizens, private property folks. One thing that happens with all these groups is government picks it up and runs away with it. I don't want to sound critical ‘cause you're the mayor of Clarkdale, but if you go to one of these meetings just one of these times, count the people who are there. You've probably done this before. It's bureaucrats and politicians. How many folks are there that's not a bureaucrat or not a politician, who really doesn't care about the bureaucrats or the politicians. But they're there for the sake of why we’re meeting. You can't find them. They're not there. And if they are, there's only one or two. I've had many people come in "why can't you attract more people to these things?" They get frustrated. They come to these things and they see that it's all "people from the government that want to help us out." We don't need government help. That's part of what you see on the national level today. We need to get more, we need new players. Not because, I don't want to take anything away from the efforts of the people because some of those people have to be there in this new effort to bring this thing along, but we need some new blood. We need new blood from the private sector. That's the simplest way I can say it. You've got to have a reason for folks to show up. You've got to have...what is the outcome of the meeting? You've got more meetings than most people. A lot of times you go to a meeting, you go home not until 11:00 at night and you wonder, what have we accomplished. Most of the time, people from the private sector, are just going to give it a try. One, two, three times, but after about the third time, if there's no positive outcome, whatever it may be, they’re going to say, "to hell" with it.

Q2: Do you feel there are things about the Verde River that we need to understand better? If so, what are they? answered above

Q 3: To your knowledge what, if any, economic development activities have recently been, or are currently being, conducted that directly relate to the Verde River? Who is involved in these activities? answered above

Q 4: What potential economic development opportunities exist which are associated with the Verde River system in the Verde Valley? answered above

Q 5: In your opinion, what information and facts are there that could be used to promote and advance the connection between the Verde River and potential sustainable economic development in the Verde Valley? answered above

Q 6 Who are important potential supporters in advancing the connection between a healthy Verde River and sustainable economic development? answered above

Q 7: What or who do you see as current or potential barriers to advancing sustainable economic development in connection with a healthy river( for example, laws and regulations, property rights, institutional like ditch companies, water companies, historic uses, etc.), changing cultural values? (If response is that “there are too many,” ask for top 3-5…interviewer’s discretion) answered above

Q 8: Who do you think might be interested in using the findings of this Verde River Economic Development Study, including the results of interviews such as this one? answered above

When come to Verde Valley? at the turn of the last century, since 1900. My grandparents on both sides came to Jerome around the late 1890s. They worked in the mines. That's why they came, to work. Then on my dad's side, my grandfather was in agriculture in the old country. He bought a farm in Middle Verde, 1922. He had the bug to raise animals, grow crops, that's the way he was raised as a kid, and they came over as kids. (discussion of Doug's family's background) (Andy got his first bicycle, a Western Flyer, in Doug's grandfather's Western Auto store)

If you had $5-10 million to improve the health of the Verde River, what would you do?I think I would create an educational format forum like we were talking about. Take some of that money to educate the public about the issues you and I just discussed. That needs to be in the fast track. That group to do that would be like minded folks, that's easy to create these. Put on some seminars, workshops for a lack of a better word. I don't like the word meeting. The workshops, seminars to educate the people, the citizenry on these issues. Bring some people in that can tell them what the river system looked like a long time ago. There are people around beside you and me that can do that also. Tell them what's happened. Why it's happened. All these things where uses were taken off. Here's the river. This is what we've got today. This system isn't as healthy as it was 30-40 years ago because the uses are gone. Enlighten those people. Stimulate some thinking. Have some good discussion. That doesn't take a lot of money, that takes some money. That needs to be very aggressive and I would schedule that for the entire watershed. Not the Verde Valley specifically, the entire watershed. The second thing I would do is create some pilot programs, one being the grazing issue, one being the sand and gravel. Let's go out somewhere and agree to do something, whatever it is, and let's have some pilot programs with good management of grazing, a good sand and gravel mining program, and let's have pilot programs. Let's do it river system, watershed wide. Let's may be do something on the upper reaches, middle reaches, and lower reaches. Let's give it a try. (you mark off lots and you allow grazing and you observe the difference). An grazing the easiest way to do it, there's dozens of different breaks in allotments. Take different grazing allotment on the upper reaches of the Verde, the middle stretch of the Verde, the lower end of the Verde. Because there would be a lot of difference between them and non-use areas. It's in place. This target select, but you've got to go ask them if they're willing to participate. It could all happen. That's part of the process. A good model for grazing versus non-grazing. Limit the grazing versus non-grazing. Same thing with sand and gravel. We need to do the same thing. You've got to give it some time. When you're dealing or working with Mother Nature, it's taken from 1997 till now to get in the shape it's in. Number 1 the species that they're trying to protect is gone. Two, we're talking about the dense vegetation, what'll it be? Shrubs, trees, forage, or weeds. It's just a multitude of things. It's over a period of time. We've got to give that some time and you can't just snap shot. It can't be six months of one year. It's got to be 3-5 years before it can even get a true picture of what's going on, whether it be good, bad or indifferent. Plus we've got to have some of what I

call a pilot study program. We've got to have other weather cycles. It needs a 10 year deal. But really people say the best we can do is 1 year, 3 years, 5 years. You're wasting your time. Let's not even talk about it. Let's not even spend money on it because it's just a snapshot. We've got to give it some time. That's something we need to do. Based on some of these things, what the irrigation companies, there's some work we can do with the irrigation companies, too. We all have room for improvement. The irrigation companies are reluctant to do anything because if something is tried out and changed and it doesn't work out, you can never get back to where you were. That's what I'm saying. I think one thing we need to do in part of this process with the irrigation companies is we need to educate people on water rights. Now when I say that, and I say the same thing to WAC, and to VWA, is the word water rights is a lost word in our vocabulary. There are three lost words in our vocabulary dealing with natural resources...production, production agriculture produced anything, and then water rights. The recognition of water rights is not only recognize them but understand them, why we have them, and all that goes with it. A lot of folks think that the water's there, we'll just give it to the wildlife, we'll give it to the recreationists, we'll give it to SRP, APS, I'll give it to you, you'll give it somebody else. It doesn't work that way. Number one is to create an awareness, as part of this educational program we're talking about. Let's talk about water rights. Let's bring in some water rights attorneys, share what they've got when they were recorded, why we've got them, can you sell them, can you trade them, can you give them away. How much or whatever. All of this, the whole gamut. That's part of the educational piece we're talking about. We can all make ourselves better. When some of these things happen, we're not going to have a future, we going to have to sell ourselves. When I say sell ourselves, what would we have to do to sell this valley to give people a reason to move here. It doesn’t do it on its own, despite all this that what we're talking about. What we're talking about if we can improve the river system and the watershed, all of this other stuff is just going to happen. I'm not one to advocate to push, push for more growth, but we've got to have, when I say we, this economy in this country, whether it's here locally, you're dealing with the town of Clarkdale, you know what the financial needs are, the sale tax income. A town either grows or it goes down hill. We're got to have what I call good, steady, good quality growth. We being all of us. Management of that again. We've got to have this discussion so we do what you and I were talking about for the last hour and a half and have growth. Those two things are in conflict. You have what the people call the no-growthers at the camp and then you have growthers. Then you have the folks who say desecrate the river and those who say protect the river. We've got to get away from that mindset. There's a place for all of this. It need to fit like this, mish mashed together. If you're looking out after the river system, we still want a good quality of growth. Folks are want a good quality of growth, these folks still want a good river system, a healthy river system. The people are of the mindset, those are the pro-growthers, those are the non-growfers. We can eat in the same room. The growthers are back to the river system. The non-growthers, they just want to shut everything down. Then you're in the politics of the situation. There's a place for all of this. The bottom line is that we've got to have a little of everything. It's got to be of good quality and it's got to be balanced. Because if you don't have the some of this and a little of this and a little of that, we're in back shape. We being all of us collectively. ( You've traveled. Can you tell me where they think they've got it right, especially some place that might have a river system.) Down on the Gila River on the UBar Ranch in the Gila Valley. Go down and look at how many fly catchers they have, look at how healthy it is. David and Tammy Ogilvee, ranchers down there. And they would love to have people come. That's the place to go and watch good management. There are more southwestern willow flycatchers there than anywhere else in our state. And they run cows there, birds and cows and everything else is all mixed up. They're having a good time. It's healthy. I think the river flow is a little less there. I was there 3 times here in the last 10-15 years. It's the size of the Verde in the middle of summertime. It's probably the size of the Verde up at the Paulden gauge. Maybe a little bit more, maybe a little bit less. Might be high teens, low twenties. I'm just guessing. That would be a place to go. That would be a place to take some people

down there in a couple of busloads and Dave and Tammy'd love to have you. That's a good spot to go. It's close by. There's some other spots, I know some other spots in other states. In this state, that's probably as good as I could go. You've got the the wildlife, the birds, wildlife, domestic grazing, production agriculture. It's a good mix and balance. You don't have to get in a jet and fly somewhere. Perkinsville is good. There are two places where I'm thinking about managed grazing is Dr. George Yard, that would be Perkinsville allotment right there, or Dave Gipe, that would be Alameda Land Cattle ?? that's up in the upper reaches of the Verde. Gipe's son-in-law is running everything now, so Donnie Berner. George and Sharon Yard tried to get the agency to do this pilot program in the forest and they just won't do it. Despite day's count and inventories were there. It went from where it was to zero. They've been intimately involved with it. They know that better than anybody. The people on the land know the land. Their livelihood depends on it. People say we want to rape the land. There're aren't any of us who want to rape the land. It's our livelihood. That's our business. Doesn't make sense. Just like you at the Western Auto store. Are you going to run the place into the ground? It's not in your best interest. The other thing that we were talking about if we had all the money in the world, is that we need to train range professionals. There's a big shortage of range conservationists in all federal agencies. People who are working on the land right now are wildlife biologists...don't take that wrong...or they're recreational people. They don't have a clue about soils and the plant community out there and the impact of animals and management has on it. Range schools are shutting down. That's a problem around the country. Management department within colleges of agriculture. PLC. We've gone to bat in several states in the West where they've shut down land grant, where they've shut down the range shop and the land grant at schools somewhere. There's a shortage of professional range expertise to work with ranchers. Lana Tolleson's husband is a range specialist. That was one of the best things that I was involved in, to get Doug here in the Verde. We need people in the agencies, the Forest Service, the Bureau of Land Management, that really have a good understanding of the landscape. There are folks now that are making these decisions that are not even in their expertise, but yet they're making those kind of decisions. Depending on other folks who make those decisions and they don’t have a range background either. I'm not saying that to be critical. That's just the fact. I work for a couple of agencies and have worked with the state and federal agencies all my life. They just don't have the folks that used to be when we were kids growing up. Some of the folks grew up on a farm or ranch somewhere or grandma and grandpa owned a ranch somewhere and they worked there in the summers. That's what kind of sparked their interest in the land, and the field of study in range, or water, or soils, or whatever it may be. We're getting kids today that love the outdoors, that grew up in towns, that love recreation...that's the big thing in America today...that loves to be outdoors to enjoy the outdoors, to look at the wildlife and that's where they don't have an understanding of why things work, of a proper functioning range. We don't talk about rangelands any more. We talk about watersheds and landscapes. They're all rangelands. We, I'm wearing my cattleman's hat now, expertise from the agencies that have range backgrounds. The universities are graduating those folks any more. Universities are shutting those departments down. How do we rebuild our natural resource industry? The umbrella is that I can tell you that I remember as a kid when I was with my dad with the range boss(?) and that guy could tell you every plant out there. You can shut that off now…

Interviewee: John Rasmussen - Wishes to remain anonymous (?): not on a list of interviewees? Perhaps he does not understand what we mean by the word.Interviewer: Doug Von GausigDate: 3-8-2011

Q1. I think those categories of management and population growth. What I mean by population growth is water use associated with development increases in population as well as, if you're talking about the watershed, things that affect the landscape such as, management things like fire management, fire suppression, forest management activities, availability for the natural systems to function so there are things like transportation corridors, those kinds of things. [all fit into population growth rubric] Yes, they do. Management doesn't necessarily have to be in the population growth rubric. Management, in addition to how fire affects the landscape, other things may/are probably (unclear) range management as well. Livestock and stuff which, you know, invasive species and things like that can affect the system. [range management impact] I think we're talking about grazing and introduction of exotic species. I guess there would be landscape character changes that might affect runoff characteristics...over-grazing kind of considerations I know have changed some historically. [population growth link w/Verde] By and large, I think the linkage is there with water use -- ground and surface water. I do [draw a connection between the two].

Q2. Yes, I do. The second part of the question is harder. Sitting here thinking about this right now, I think that the link between economic viability in the system is not well understood and the implications of it, the changing system on economics as well as the ability for folks to make a living here, is related to the system. I don't think we really understand that well as a society. So there is that economic factor; that economic link. Not only what the answers are, but how to discuss it -- at least for me. There is a lot of things that are hard to quantify in that discussion -- what's the value of a flowing river; or what's the value of having a certain species exist. Some of those things are traditionally externalities in economic formulas [hard to quantify] and I sometimes, if you can't quantify them, they don't exist -- the equations. You get a bottom line number and it wasn't in there. The value of ecological services, that's part of it. I think that is part of what I'm talking about. Maybe if I knew more about that...ecological services, I think, have this...as things that the environment is doing such as filtering water, providing perhaps even recreation opportunities, cleaning air, you know. Externalities that go into an economic picture, in addition to ecological services, or maybe these services as well are some of the quality of life issues -- eye of the beholder kind of things, perhaps. [difficulty of assigning value to ecological services, etc.] Then there are things related to that question that ...when I didn't live here, I still had value knowing that the Coconino National Forest was on the rim or knowing that it existed and that there were wilderness areas there even though I wasn't necessarily visiting them. It was of value to me to understand that we had that and that goes for other areas of the country as well. And the other thing about what we need to understand about the river better is, perhaps this is negative, but not as much is that I think we need to understand that the way the system functions. Maybe that is through development of models, like the groundwater model or the super (?) model. Understanding it enough so that we can use these models and things as tools to make predictions about how management changes will affect the Verde River and the Verde River system, in other words, so that we can make predictions about the future so that we can address the things we like. In addition, there is sort of that economic link. I think there are some sort of practical scientific management tools, science management tools (unclear) that we still could understand better -- geohydrologiocal concerns, yeah, I think that's where that would fall into. And, you know, I guess if we're still talking about the whole system, there are probably ecological concerns in those types of science, evidence based tools that we can use to decide what we're going to do that will achieve our objectives that are defensible, based on evidence, and that we can have confidence in so that we can trust we're doing the best we can. We need to have confidence also in, really, our decisions on behalf of society in terms of how we're managing the area in that confidence, I think, is gained by having evidence-based tools that you trust on one side and the other side is having an attitude or understanding or something, maybe it's what are

you getting out of the studies - what it is that you want and being able to describe that in a way that will allow you to use the tools to head in the direction of getting to that which you describe.

Q3. I'm not sure what you mean by economic development, but I think there is -- any time a well is drilled or any time -- that's economic development. I guess those kind of issues would directly relate to the river. Well, I think, there is a probably a couple of ways. One that jumps into my mind right off the bat is if you put in a subdivision or something and put wells in and you could affect the base flow at some point in time. The same with if you put in a development in an area that was previously open space or wildlife corridor or something like that you could affect the Verde River system. When I first saw this question, that really wasn't what I was thinking about, or what I was trying to think about. What I was trying to think about were like ...I think of Clarkdale Sustainability Park, or something like that in terms of economic development and the river. Or, the ... [business that rely on a healthy Verde] Well, there are a lot of agricultural businesses that rely on that. That's one that comes to mind and I know there is recreational opportunities. I would be hard pressed to tell you the names of actual businesses -- sort of that ecotourism industry. I've got to admit I'm somewhat ignorant as to exactly what that is. But, I know there are people doing horse rides, bird watching. [low level?] Yes maybe they are low level. But, I don't necessarily consider the agricultural interests in the Verde Valley low level. Well, there is ranching -- that's not in agriculture, I guess. I just don't know the details of ...I'm thinking of the ditch systems and ditch companies diverting water and the relation of that to...there is some crops that get produced. There is a bunch of development nowadays, as I understand it, that is around the river. Perhaps there is a real estate business associated with that.

Q4. In the northwest, there is a lot of ecotourism there that is related to rivers. I don't think you're ever going to get a fishing industry here like you do -- salmon runs, etc. As far as uplands and forest resources, I'm not sure. I guess I can plead a little bit of ignorance on it around here. Over there is the timber industry -- big trees grow over there [Oregon]. {River towns in other places; what do you see there in your mind?] I see parks and things along the river; running trails; riding trails; open space along the river. I see amphitheater venues - performance venues -- pretty good acts -- in Eugene, some really nice amphitheaters by the river. You go further downstream there, you probably don't see this much anymore, at Klamouth Falls you see industry along the river. You know, logs and things sitting in the river and mills beside them and stuff like that. There is different kinds of river towns. I would think more of the nice place to live, kind of river town, is what I would envision along the Verde as opposed to a working river town. [trail system that towns identify themselves with] Yes. Space for people to be -- open spaces; parks; but not like Deadhorse Ranch State Park where you have to pay every time you go in, but something that's there for people in the community to use along the river. I guess if you have something like that maybe you could get some, I don't know what the right word is, but in terms of businesses and job opportunities that attract employees that like that kind of stuff and appreciate that. [what kind of business are those?] Those are businesses that maybe are software development, small business that maybe take some raw materials, like maybe a salsa company or something that is regional and smaller - not big warehouse, factory type stuff. [commonalities] I think they're not super-large businesses. [why care about river amenities] I wouldn't want to offend anybody but maybe they are more highly educated people although there is a lot of folks that can appreciate things and they're not highly educated in the same sense. But, I would argue that they are, in some ways. I don't know ... maybe higher paying. I guess I'm thinking of people that would be out -- fitness or outdoor oriented people where that's of value to them. You know, people do all kinds of jobs and they're not just educated people that appreciate the outdoors. But, the people that could appreciate the outdoors along with the river in the city are different that people who are going to go outdoors because they are

going to go hunting. And, those folks could live around here and enjoy this environment as well but they are probably going to be headed up to (unclear) to do their stuff.

Q5. Skipped

Q6. I think you have to go with the big land owners. Existing businesses such as... I guess what I'm thinking you could get guys like the Fain family over there and the Fanns; Grosettas. If these folks could get on board with some of these general concepts, I think that would be huge. It seems obvious to me that other potential supporters are, besides everybody, councils and Chambers of Commerce -- underline that -- business organizations. Economic Development Commissions. I know Prescott has one. I'm not sure who else has one.

Q7. I think there is -- there might be an information barrier. What I mean by that is because where I want to go with this is basically back to the previous one. The people that would be important supporters, many of them , including some of the folks in the Chambers of Commerce, are also barriers at this point. So that's why I think, I don't know where the word 'information barrier' came from. But, I think what I mean by that is to show those folks with power and some of the big landowners -- some of the people that have some ability to do changes or...to show that it is in their best interest -- that it really does support the things they like and value. Some of them, I want to believe, that if it's presented to them properly, it would fit in with what they desire now. It's just a matter of showing them that a healthy, sustainable system is in their best interests and they want that now already. They're just ...maybe it's personalities; preconceived notions; and changes that they have seen that turn them off. So, I think if the information is presented in a proper way, some of these folks might realize that it does align with their values and their best economic interests. Paradigm shifts; changes. It seems like the only way a paradigm shift changes is if the old guys die off. A lot of times [newcomers] can see things differently than others who have been living around here the whole time. I still think the people that have been around here have a value to add. I don't know how to do it but if one could use the right words or convince them, and maybe it's their own people or something that would have to do it. Back to the statement, though, I think most people want pretty much similar things.

Q9. I think it would be universities. I know NAU has done some similar type work. There is universities and academic type folks who study this kind of stuff for various reasons. I would think they would be interested. I would hope that the WAC, the committee I'm involved with, would be interested in it as well as some of the other water groups or groups that relate to management. I would hope that, I guess I'm not convinced they actually will be, but I would hope that all of these people who are potential supporters and potential barriers would be interested in it. You know, economic development commission folks; the Chambers -- the people that are trying to help make the community function and remain viable and the councils and all that. I would hope they would be -- wouldn't be pessimistic. I might depend on how it gets rolled out. [are you pessimistic?] Am I? No -- sometimes but certainly not all the time. I don't think I'm pessimistic. Maybe as I get closer to 50 years old I'm more pessimistic than I think. I'm actually not proud of that but.... You can see the potential or that anything else is not...

[general comments] I've been in Yavapai County about five years. I came from Oregon where I lived on both the east and the west [unclear]. [discussion about not having TV -- cable, internet, information from different venues]

I interact with the Verde River through my work, for one. Through the WAC -- you know, science, politics and issues surrounding hydrology and water rights and stuff like that. I also interact with it

through, not so much on the river itself, but I hike on some of the tributaries. So, recreationally, mostly on the tributaries, actually. Because they are more like wilderness; more remote. I like Sycamore Canyon; Granite Mountain area. That area is rugged but beautiful. Wet Beaver Creek is one that I haven't done as much as I'd like to -- well, none of them have I done as much as I'd like to. Once you get back up into them a little bit, they start to get pretty impressive in terms of the geology. You get a sense that you're in a special, wild place.

[targeted funding for the Verde] I'd just take the money and run. No. I reserve the right to think about that a little bit. But, the thing that comes to mind right off the bat, and it's probably related to the conversations we were having earlier, is I would really like to spend some of that money on informing the public and the decisions -- given the information barrier/gap; I think that would be one of the big things that I would do. Depending on other things, I think, I don't know if the money is enough, you know some of those other things we were talking about -- like developing open space areas; developing those park areas; those attractions that we were discussing earlier will take resources to do that as well as political will and the communities' desire to do it -- perhaps taking developable land and putting it into -- maybe even buying some land. Those are two things that I'd see right off the bat is developing some of those spaces and I don't know how I would do it, but the information aspect. I guess the point is that I think you could raise support for those kinds of changes and support for that if you could get the information out there and get the people behind these projects.

[additional interviews] I don't know who you've interviewed. But, I think you should try and get yourself a nice, broad cross-section of people -- people in our business that I'm sure you know and probably have -- people that are kind of in the water and thinking about the watershed business from different communities as well as I think actually talking to some of those folks who have been around here for a long time. Like, Andy Grosetta -- some of those long-term families. Brad Fain or something, although he's over on the Prescott side. Just some of that...I've made some assumptions and assertions earlier about how they have some of the same values that some of the newcomers have, perhaps, and it would be neat to see if that was valid or not.

[concerns about this study] I think with any of these kinds of studies you have to be careful that the outcome is not predetermined or that you're not doing the study for the purpose of promoting a particular ideal or outcome that you would like to see. And, if you are, that's fine, if that's what you are doing - you know, if you are trying to develop support for some cause, that is one thing and I think you should be upfront. But my impression with this one is that you're somewhat just trying to see what falls out from talking about this; maybe filling some information gaps. I'd have to think about it but how you talk about it is going to be really important -- how you present it; how you talk about who you talked to and how you talk about how you came up with the questions you came up with and maybe even have a, and I'm just shooting from the hip here, but maybe have some separate parts to report about the study and what you learned -- separate from inferences about what this is telling you and certainly separate that from judgments about what is good and bad. [roll out data and not conclusions] Yes, that's what I was saying. But, I'd really want to think about it. The idea is, as you know with these other studies, if you get too far out in front of what they mean -- and actually that's what you should be doing, I don't know...

[conversation about what the study is doing; result reporting, etc.] There may be some aspects of hydrological stuff that we were talking about and certainly you'd want to keep the coordinator of the WAC advisory committee employed. In terms of if there are identified needs for basic information, those would be something that would be identified [unclear].

Interviewee: Brian SawyerInterviewer: Casey Rooney Date: 3-2-11

Q1. Well, I think the factors influencing the health of the river include potential water drawdowns for needs in Chino Valley and Prescott area; water wells being drilled in the area in the Verde Valley possibly draining down the water table that feeds the Verde River. I would guess those would be significant influences and factors of concern to the health of the river. Those are significant. The other thing is if we had, you know, in the local development areas -- maybe say Cottonwood, Clarkdale, Camp Verde along the river, if we have a growing population and we have runoff after rain storms from parking lots where we get oils or pollutants -- that would be a concern to me about affecting the health of the river system, I suppose. [conversation about Watson Lake -- Prescott area -- it's dirty, it's polluted from runoff] Right, my guess is those are the most significant factors.

Q2. My little bit of understanding is that there is a number of groups that are studying the river to learn more about how the water is drawn down, how it is recharged back into the river...probably need to have a good handle on the economic impact of the river. Many people live here because of the lifestyle that the river brings with it, you know, fishing, recreation, kayaking, insurance -- I can insure those trips down the river. It affects us all here. I think we've chosen to live in the area because of the river, possibly. So, I suppose we need to know and expect what could happen if the river disappears so if the river dries up, how it's going to affect life in the Verde Valley, both from a lifestyle standpoint and as an economic driver of bringing people to the area. I think we need to understand how we are affected if we maintain the river as is or if we let it go dry. It is a substantial factor in the area. Recreationally, everybody in the Verde Valley in some way or another, is connected with the river -- even the disc golf games near Old Town [Cottonwood]. People love going down near the river. I haven't done it yet [disc golf]. The hiking, the picnicking, the bird watching, the birding festival, all those kinds of things revolve around the river and, to me, as an outdoorsman, the river is critical and we need to understand how, as we develop our community in the valley, what happens to our river as these things change. [outdoor activities changes perspective about living in the valley] Oh yes, it does.

Q3. What I know about is there are recreational opportunities. The Water to Wine tours on the river. You know, there is some economic activity there. I'm sure that some of the wineries in the area derive water with water rights for the vineyards, that kind of stuff. For, you know, the water is extensively put out in irrigation canals for farming, pasturing of animals, that kind of stuff, and there is a number of ditch associations in the area -- tons of farming, even if it's a small one-half acre plot to much larger and the agricultural value to the valley, a lot of its derived because of the river. There are other people that come here and spend dollars in the community for the birding festival for Verde River Days, Deadhorse Ranch State Park...there's a lot of people that go there every single day for recreational opportunities. That all hinges on there being water in the river. You know, all those kinds of things. Hiking, picnicking, you know, all that kind of stuff...camping along the river. Those are things that are directly related to the Verde River -- no question about it. Those are just things I can think of. [businesses that might be targeted because of the river in the future; what kind of growth do you see?] Hopefully we have some steady growth without crazy growth -- without it getting to the point of where it jeopardizes our lifestyle; where it jeopardizes the health of the river and the ecosystem associated with it. [General Motors, small tech, tourism] Tourism will be here as long as the river is here and the red rocks are here. There's no question about that. We'd like to see some decent paying jobs and the quality of life here

could attract some of those jobs, perhaps, and some of those businesses. Maybe it's a call center for a company; maybe it's a light tech industry. Once we can get people here, then they'll see what the value of the river is. Maybe they'll want to protect it like the rest of us that already know it. [do people come here because the river is here; do they realize the river is here] I think they would come here for various reasons. The river would be maybe a small piece of it. I think as you live here you learn more to appreciate the Verde River and it is just part of the area. I don't know how to explain it any better than that. It kind of grows on you. Once you are here, you really understand that it's a place you can get away from the concrete and the asphalt and go down there and be with nature and enjoy the outdoors. [first time I came to Cottonwood from Prescott, we didn't realize there was a river; it didn't impact me the first time I came into town] When I first came into town, first of all being an outdoorsman living in the Rocky Mountains my whole life, when I came into town, the first thing I wanted to know was about what waters there are. Water is important to me. I spend every weekend on the water fishing, birdwatching, you know, recreating and all that stuff. So, I did look around town and I finally found, hey, the river is here. There are some parks here so that I can still enjoy the types of recreation I have in the past so that was attractive to me and I had to have that to interest me in moving here originally. That was important to me. [business that might come could come for the same reasons - quality of life, etc.] Right, quality of life. Exactly.

Q4. [moved here from Wyoming] Opportunities related to the river, or not? [either way] As far as the river itself, I don't know if there could be some more small subdivisions along the river, you know, inside or outside of the flood plain, you know, for people to want that kind of environment to build a home and live in. As far as economic development opportunities, I think they are fairly limited in Cottonwood, as it stands today. We don't have a lot of skilled labor in town. That limits us a little bit. We're kind of off the transportation grid, so to speak, being off the freeway a few miles. You know, and coming from a state that has very low taxation rates, very pro-business, I see a little bit of a hindrance from the taxation from the planning commissions of the cities, the counties, the expense of connecting the water-sewer, those kind of things I think are inhibiting prospects for new businesses to come to town a little bit. I'm not sure how to manage that but that's what I see as an outsider that came to the valley and, as a current business owners, I see that maybe that's inhibiting what we could possibly do if we were able to back off on some regulations or some expenses of moving a business here. [if we did what opportunities were knocked down; who would want to be here and the impact of the river?] I don't know that I can answer that. [doesn't have to be retail, restaurants] It would be interesting to see if we could find a way to have some manufacturing of some sort -- maybe medical products, I don't know what it would be. Maybe it's tech products. Maybe it's fishing products -- the testing of outdoor products; off-road vehicles, who knows? Maybe that would be an opportunity, based on the river and the climate here, maybe that would create an interest in people. [yeah, I'd thought about kayak testing or something like that; but diverting the river or not good flow...] Water rights, you know, are kind of senior to everything else that happens in the West. So, water adjudication and water rights kind of rule the rest of our lives and seem to have done so for the last 120 years. So, I'm not sure how you work around that. It is important to agriculture to have that water. You can't make a living if you don't have it.

Q5. I don't know that I have enough information or facts to answer that. Honestly. I've read a lot of studies done...different outcomes on each study from what I've found. You know, the most recent studies that I've read about just say, hey, the river will be here at current water usage levels; there is recharge in the river as you go down the river; there are different springs and so forth that recharge the river. There is flow-back from irrigation that comes back in the river. I just don't have enough facts to

answer the question. [many people study facts; Carol Springer says 10 studies will have 10 different sets of facts depending]

Q6. I know Mayor Von Gausig in Clarkdale is one with the Clarkdale Sustainability project. I think he is a big supporter, is my guess. I say other people that are well known in the community, Richard Dehnart would probably be one. Are we looking for people, specifically, or are we looking for groups? [people, groups, etc.] Groups could be the local city governments; the local Chambers of Commerce. Those kinds of organizations would do well in supporting economic development related to the river, I suppose. Those are the main groups that I see. [Yavapai College] Yavapai College, yes, very good.

Q7. Well, you know, people that hold senior water rights, uh, and take a lot of water from the river, would ...they would be barriers, possibly, in using the river in different ways than historically has been done. That's the main thing that I would...water adjudication, water rights law. [people are taking water away from the river] ...Away from the river are going to fight hard to give that up. There's no question. And, they do have the law on their side at this time. [barriers in those peoples' mind; using because of need or to make money - what?] Growing up in western Wyoming, where cattle ranching is king and water rights are king, even if one rancher had too much water, he wasn't about to let it go to the next guy and...maybe he had too much water but he's not going to turn it back into the river. I've seen so many fights over water it's unreal. [what would they do with the excess?] They would have it go down into ditches and maybe go out into pasture land and it flooded. It didn't really utilize it, but they darned sure weren't going to let it go down to their neighbor. I don't know that that happens here in the Verde Valley because water is more precious than it is in the Rocky Mountains where you have good water all the time. But, I just see that diversion of water out of the river to these ditch holders and all these people down the line and I don't know how you could culturally change their minds, maybe in one generation even. It may be long-term. I'm not sure how you can do it. If you can change their minds about using the water for agriculture only to being able to diversify and think outside the box to do other things with the water and the river itself. So, education is probably a little bit of a barrier with those folks in that mindset. [interesting because another interviewee stated they were on the ditch with prettiest, greenest grass around; that's what they use it for; they don't know how much water it takes] They use as much as they can get so they can have the greenest grass, right. [if grass is important, then water is important] That could be a barrier, I suppose.

Q8. First of all, who might be interested, I'll go back to that and Cottonwood Economic Development Council is one. I think Yavapai College would have a great interest in this. You know, if we think that there is a way to bring economic development to the area associated with the river, maybe there is some educational opportunities that could be provided at the college here to help move that all along -- get those kind of skilled people that we may need related to whatever economic development is proposed coming out of this study. You know, the cities, the towns, the taxing bodies...those kinds of entities could use some of these findings in making future decisions and zoning and planning and all those kinds of things. [anybody beyond our little world in Cottonwood?] Well, I believe, is there a northern Arizona economic group, Casey. [a Verde Valley regional group; there's Northern Arizona Regional Council of Governments which is for the counties. We have our own economic development here but then it spreads out w/communities surrounding the Verde Valley] My guess is that any of this information would be helpful to any of those organizations or governmental entities in like some future decisions related to economic development - maybe zoning laws, maybe tax levels, business breaks...I would think any of those entities could use those results.

Q9. Well, my guess would be to, you know, I know a guy that works for the City of Cottonwood, Casey Rooney, and when he is out marketing the area on behalf of the city, and probably the Chamber of Commerce and other folks, that could be in a lot of marketing pieces. That could be, we could give information to potential companies looking to either relocate or start a business in the area...you know, how important the Verde River is; all of the opportunities for lifestyle. I see it as a lifestyle thing to a person like myself. You know, when I get off work and get out of the office, I want to go to the river. I want to go down there and I want to see the wildlife. I want to see the plants, the birds, the trees, and the peace and the quiet and so forth. I think it's a huge lifestyle thing that needs to be promoted along with the other opportunities here to relocate business. The seasons we have here; the weather; the people; it goes back to me as 'lifestyle.' That's the main reason that I relocated here; it was a lifestyle reason. The river is part of it; the red rocks are part of it. It all ties in together. To have all that in one place like the Verde Valley. [when things start turning around in the economy, people our age start looking around to relocate] That's true.

[general comments] [length of time in Verde Valley] Seven years. [transaction w/Verde River] I can just say recreationally. Bottom line -- fishing, hiking, picnics, you know, all that kind of stuff -- just exploring, bird watching, hanging out. There is just something about hanging out by the river. [participation in the birding festival] I have not, but I'd like to.

[targeted funding on behalf of the river and sustainable economic development] I don't even know about business so much as I would probably want to try and maintain current habitat along the river; current flows along the river; that kind of stuff. Does that make some sense? I think just habitat improvement projects; projects to remove exotic species along the river and get it back to natural settings. Get rid of all these invasive plants and species. Try and maintain the quality of the river as far as the water quality; as far as maintaining flows and trying to keep water in the river or maintaining systems to recharge the river after water has been used for irrigation or agricultural -- try and return the water to the river. That would be my direction with that kind of money.

[concerns about the study] No, not at all.

Interviewee: Steve KimInterviewer: Casey RooneyDate: 2-8-11

Q1. We have not been activities especially in regard to the Verde River and we are not sure how much we are dependent on the water resources because we use underground water actually for this discussion I don't have any specific ideas. [water underground is influenced by the Verde River watershed so wells influence the river]

Q2. There is an example. My answer to the question #1 is an example of things that we need to understand better about the Verde River. Because I don't think it's only me. Many people who depend on underground water sources, they may believe they are not related. If you ask people in the street, they wouldn't know there was a connection...because I use underground water I don't have anything to do with it. [unclear] I don't have any statistics about how many people, how much they use and they rely on underground water. But I believe, especially Arizona, much more people in other states are dependent on underground water. It is the same in this community. We need to educate people about how their water sources, even if they use underground water, is connected to the healthy condition of the Verde River. I may look into it. This is one of the things I think we need to understand better. We

need to educate people to understand better how they are related to the river. [discussion by Casey of how underground water is related to the Verde]

Q3. My business is not directly related because most of the activities we do are kind of far away from the local community. So, for #3, I think I need to depend on you for more information about what kind of activities are going on. [Casey explains some in the area are specifically involved in growing business, etc.] The only activities we are related to is the Chamber of Commerce. Q4. This is what I discussed mainly during lunch. Geographically, they are very limited for residents. Most of the area is owned by government agencies including state or federal so there is a limited area for residents and natural resources also is very limited. In order to continue and to maintain this community, we need economic development but when you expand it may not cause any problem. But, when you are geographically limited and more people with more consumption of resources in a very limited area that means high impact on the ecological impact in a negative way to the environment. So, that means that, if there should be economic development, this condition is really imperative [the impact that we have on the environment and the use of resources] It makes it imperative for us to develop a different style of economy -- not just growth but a different style of growth. What we can do...the main concept of this is conventional philosophy and lifestyle and technology. Technology may include, for example, solar panels and environmental/ecological/nature friendly technology, including the power system and [unclear] and the philosophy that needs to be friendly, or even as a stakeholder, toward the environment and earth. But I think what we should be thinking of is lifestyle. When we really change lifestyle, these ideas can actually reduce the living cost. That means that with the same conventional resources, we can sustain more people with less impact on the environment. I think that's how we can test the model of economic development that we can pursue. [cost reduction; living with less but maintaining quality of life] There are many things we can learn that we can integrate into our daily life and actually that is one of the things that we educate here. We educate people how to live in a more natural way...taking care of the earth; taking care of their life without depending on... One of the main issues will be health care - how to maintain health without depending on high cost health care systems. As far as I know, health care costs take about 15% of the total GDP of this country. If we create a model on a community level which shows a good combination of the conventional philosophy and lifestyle and if you demonstrate that it works...economic development without consuming lots of resources, then because this is growing interest globally, not only in the United States, globally we have people interested in this, then I think we can use this model as a an education for people not only for this country but from all over so this can become, let's say, a combination of tourism, education, tourism and ecological education and education for healthy living. Then, this can be while we are sustaining, while we are managing this community on a really sustainable level, but also this can create more sources of income from a different style of tourism business -- different style of the combination of tourism and education. That's something we can focus on; that's how we can distinguish this community from others. [our current mentality of consuming more is better vs. consuming less] But, we can maintain and even enhance our current quality of life. Consuming less and higher quality of life. Who will refuse that? [less consumed better quality of life - mind set change for education]

Q5. My answer to Q5 was already included in Q4, especially how our life, even though we conceptually understand, I think people don't take it as personal information, how their personal life is related to the environment. Definitely the environmental education should be part of this. Another thing is the more important is that we need to educate people how to take care of their life, and their health, depending on the other health systems which consumes, not the resources, but one of the more natural and simple way -- simple method to take care of their personal health. [cost reduction associated with health

care,etc. when we understand the value of a healthy life] Simple lifestyle changes can actually help a lot to reduce the cost for their health care.

Q6. Whoever is interested in keeping Mother Earth in good condition can be supporters of this. This can be economic development but some of the advocates, some of the styles of organizations that come to my mind are schools and churches and the local, I'm not sure what are the voluntary, the social organizations who work for the community issues, but these can be an example of groups who can work together for this purpose. [a lot of groups are around waiting to be organized] [Do you take people out on tours to places like Slide Rock?] We don't bring people to...while people are here they just focus on the training they receive from us. But they can get the information of the local [unclear] easily and I believe they stop by and talk to us about famous regular places on their way back home. [appreciation of Slide Rock; what about the Verde in connection with it?] It's a long time ago -- almost 10 years ago. At that time, I didn't think about the impact on the environment of what we do at Slide Rock. I was just glad that we had such good water in this desert but that's the most of thing that I thought about at that time. [what if we didn't have that?] That's totally, the water in a desert like this -- that's really one of the most precious variables that we have here.

Q7. The regulation and policies can be...we really need to work on this...it can be a real thing that we need to do. At the beginning, we need to focus on changing peoples' minds and attitudes toward the healthier, balanced economic development. For that purpose, I think the most important barriers are lack of understanding and lack of education about their personal lives are related to the environment. More specifically, how their personal health is related to the Verde River.

Q8. I think everybody. This can be developed into a proposal for a foundation or the local government or this can be developed into educational materials that can be used for schools and community organizations so I think it's kind of broad. It can benefit from the results of this study. [using the study to further develop a foundation, etc.] Yes. Based on this, we can make a foundation -- a locally based foundation but also this can be developed into a proposal to get necessary financial resources to implement these ideas. [recommendations to WFF to take study to next level]

Q9. I'm not sure if the Verde River should be a focal point on a more practical level, but I think if we need one thing that it stands for as a symbol, I think then the Verde River will represent all of these efforts as a collective effort. So I think we can make it...if it is [healthy lifestyle impacts river]. So, if we can make it a social movement, we can make it for example, Keep Sedona Beautiful, so by applying the same concept to this we may say keep the river healthy. This can be, because this can appeal to more people than just those living in the city of Cottonwood. If you mention Verde River, everybody living in northern Arizona will be interested. So, more attention from more people.

[general comments] [length of time in the Verde Valley] 14 years. [interaction w/river] I took walks several times there. I didn't do any entertainment activities there but I know the importance of the Verde River. But I don't have any specific information how the way we use underground water as it is related to the Verde River. But, I will search for more information about that because I need to understand it.

[targeted funding] I would divide it for different purposes. Some of the things...there are things that we need to do immediately to prevent damage to water quality of the Verde River, it should be used for that. But I would like to spend a bigger portion of that for preventative purposes educating people how to live in harmony with nature -- how they can support themselves and the river and also educate,

especially for the younger generations, because it is not easy for adults to change their lifestyle. I think younger generations, their type of education would be more beneficial for younger generations. So, that's how I would use that funding.

[additional interviews] I'm not sure what organization who has a strong influence on peoples' attitude or philosophy because if you want to make this change substantial, it's not just about new technology or getting some funds for this type of project, it really should be grounded in peoples' mindset/attitude and then it can be more effective to start that movement from some group of organizations which has a strong influence on peoples' attitude toward life -- peoples' philosophy. So, for example, churches.

[concerns about study] I want to understand the motivation beyond the study because when this study is funded by the foundation, the foundation, I believe has its own purpose and its own agenda, especially when the foundation is linked with private businesses and they might have some linked agenda. For example, the result of this can be used to develop better business strategies to make it more profitable for the private businesses so that's all possible. So, I will study/I will look at the material you provided, but I think, not only for this study - any study, when there is official information, but sometimes there are other agendas behind that so I just, if possible, want to understand what the motivations of the people who are supporting the funding at this point. [agenda of WFF - resources that want to give back] My understanding about that is, my attitude toward this can be summarized like this: whatever is good for you, things that are good for you but are not good for others, won't be good for you and others either, eventually. What is good for you, good for others and good for the earth, will be good for all. So, that means even some motivations came from some agenda about the project, eventually the way we can a sustainable project is by taking care of the poor so that means there shouldn't be and couldn't be any hidden agenda. It's not possible eventually. I think people understand this clearly and that's how...when we have this understanding, I think that's how we can work together, even though we start from different motivations, different from you or the motivation of the foundation, there is a simple truth and we can work together. Interviewee: Cristie Statler (Wishes to remain anonymous)Interviewer: Doug Von GausigDate: February 11, 2011

Q1. Well, certainly development and the drilling, the well drilling, that has gone on -- the drain of the aquifer. Any kind of impact on that aquifer is a direct, certainly, on the physical factors of the water flow. However, on a broader scale, I think awareness of the river and the benefits that it plays to the communities that exist in it ..in that area is certainly primary. You know, you're talking about people who don't even know where the river is. If there is not this broad awareness of how it impacts the community, I think you're fighting an uphill battle. [lack of information; eduation] Certainly. I would say that's a primary factor over the long run. And not just among the communities that are directly impacted, but the larger community - the state and communities throughout the state who are unaware of the threats against the Verde River. We have so few healthy rivers in this state that lack of information statewide, I think, is probably secondary but it is still a significant factor. [interviews w/long time residents in the Verde Valley with little understanding of the river; analysis of lack of understanding] I think [there is a lack of understanding because] people, in general, well, I can't speak to the demographics of the region. I don't know enough about that. But, I would suggest that folks who are unattached to the outdoors do not understand the impacts of ecology to their lives and they think it's irrelevant. And, I've fought this education curve throughout the state as a result of state park issues. So, it's not just the river there, it's Sonoita Creek, it's all over the place. The health of the Colorado and its impacts on the river all the way down through the state park system like [unclear] and Lake Havasu.

Even folks that live on it and benefit from the economic impacts of it, water, in this state don't recognize because I think they're just caught up in the routine and the daily existence of their own routine. So, it's a trick. It's a real challenge to engage people in the out of door and not only... I mean, we try and stress the economic benefits because money hits home. People seem to relate to that. Even more than they do -- look without the health of the river you lose the birds. Without the birds you lose this tourism. I mean, we try and talk in these broader and bring it closer to home -- we [Arizona Parks Foundation] talk in these broad terms and try and bring it closer to home but it is a difficult curve to overcome. [what does resonate?] The economic message, I think. That's why we grabbed on to that. I think...that's why the Arizona State Parks Foundation, when we first got our hands on the NAU study of 2007-2008 and recognized what a significant state-wide impact, financial economic impact, the system has [hotel industry, hospitality school research]. We got our hands on that thing and realized that $266m in economic benefits statewide. $23.4m of that, in addition to the $266m, $23.4 feeds the tax base -- state and local tax base. More than 3,000 jobs are connected with state parks. So, I think once you're able to translate that to the local citizen -- look, your restaurant, your hotel, your bait and tackle shop, your camping equipment, your livlihood is impacted on the fact of an open state park, or not. So, hanging on to that and trying to continually translate that and then, again, driving home the tourism aspect of how, when a state park is open, this leads tourism dollars into your communities. That dollar message makes folks feel that 'gee, this is a relevant issue in my life.' The better the tax base, the more benefits our tax base receives from open state parks, then the better off my community if, the better off I am...feeds schools, feeds everything...highways. So, latching on to that message seems to draw the guy who doesn't go fishing, who doesn't go hunting, who isn't a kayaker. It's relevant on those terms -- household by household. [study available online on foundation website; updated also available] We see that with decreased visitation as a result of state park closures, including the greenway, you see a diminished community return. The economic benefit, while state park visitation and the direct dollars to state parks has decreased by 13%, the rural economic impact has decreased by 16% and it's growing. So, again, pushing park visitation. [counter intuitive that state park visitation goes down] You would think that would be the logic, but...well, we have struggled with our public relations because the headline of '23 state parks closed' in January of 2010, was so impactful that people, beyond our borders, still think state parks are closed. And that message just...we could not overcome that. And then park schedules changed three days, four days, five days open. People would come to the park thinking it would be open and it wasn't. So, they just think it's closed permanently. The trickle down, the continuing ripple of that closure process, even with parks reopen...I mean we only have three parks closed right now, but visitation really, I think, was negatively impacted because of that initial announcement. It's been a heck of a thing to try and turn that curve and, as a result of, of course, this message muddle, we continue to see the Enhancement Fund deteriorate. When park visitation goes down, gate fees are reduced. The very fund that the state park system is relying on more and more heavily, its own gate fees, is really struggling to produce.

Q2. Well, I'm sure there is lots of stuff I should understand better about the Verde River, but, not just...and we talked about this in our 'brain trust' meeting before, when we worry about the river, we seem to focus on the borders of the river and the stretch of the river that impacts us the most. But I think what we need to embrace is a broader understanding of the watershed that feeds that river. And, if we're not getting a better handle on that, then the direct impacts on the river may become a secondary issue -- snow melt, watershed and the upstream negative impacts that finally, and I'm just speculating here, but finally hit the river, we don't recognize them. We make assumptions, I think. And, maybe it's a lack of information, but I think we make assumptions that it's a problem with the river when there are probably more impacts in the watershed. [watershed is where the river comes from] Here's the swimming pool and you've got a lot of pipes flowing in. I don't know what kind of information there

is available on that. I don't know how much data has been collected. I know NAU has done significant work. I know The Nature Conservancy probably has. [Yavapai Co. WAC to define issues better] I'm just curious. I'm poorly educated on that. [unless you're a water groupie in the Verde Valley] Right. But, I would suggest that an awareness, again, of those kind of issues. And, then that relates to the broader community beyond those that are just in the river.

Q3. Well, of course, I'm mostly aware of the birding festival and I was just ... that's a significant economic development activity that not only brings people into the community, they spend their money there -- what, three or four days now. Well, I'm all about replicating that in the Sonoita Creek area. We need to do the same kind of thing there. But, I know, of course, state parks and SRP have been involved in the birding festival for, I mean state parks has managed it and Barbie Hart has been the significant player since the start, bless her heart. But, I'm not as aware of other economic development activities other than those things that state parks are primarily involved in. [state parks themselves are economic development - they draw people to the Verde Valley] Right. It's just open parks. [could argue state parks is the primary economic development entity] I'm glad to hear you say that. Well, I wasn't aware, honestly, if there were other activities that might surpass what state parks does. But, I know we are significant. [the train does a tremendous business; interviews are indicating a link and interdependence between all activies and the river] Everybody is hurting without that river.

Q4. [what are some in other places in the state?] Well, I'll bring it up again. Nobody likes the state or even the feds breathing down their necks, but the [unclear] area. What I witnessed in the Santa Cruz Valley was a real, it was something for multiple communities and multiple business interests, to latch onto and to really rally around. And, while I think the economic benefits, probably because of the condition of our economy and the condition of the rural, as well as local, economy, probably those benefits are declining to a certain extent. But, I would suggest that a real investigation of what that can bring, in terms of funding and real economic drivers, is probably worthwhile. [Chip Davis is doing some work on this; Chip Norton as well] I emailed the guys and thought, you know, I think it's worth looking into at least. I don't, I've just seen it do such a fine job at the Yuma Crossing Heritage Area and I'm sure, I get the newsletter from the Santa Cruz National Heritage Area, and I see the kind of interest there is from business and for other participants. Every business loads on -- just jumps on this. It's a national tourism opportunity. [a need for branding the Verde Valley in relation to the river that would help]

Q5. Of course, the connection -- just the health of the river, health of the watershed means health of the river. Health of the river means birds and other healthy outdoor activities. I don't know what kind of emphasis there has been or connection with wellness. But, I would suspect that has not been overlooked. [it's one of our goals at the Clarkdale Sustainable Park] Right, healthy living and I think that kind of data. Getting outside, an active lifestyle, in addition to the health of the waterway and the tourism benefits. Those are the kinds of ...two primary, I think, set of facts that can really help attract sustainable development but it's a struggle these days.

Q6. Oh my goodness. Who is not already involved? Good luck with that one, huh. Oh my goodness. Well, it sounds like, and my first question would have been, the wellness community. How deeply are they...schools...the education community...hospital system...certainly, I think, you've achieved a great deal between the interconnectedness between the forest service and park service and public land groups and ecology...the ecology-minded organizations. But, I'm curious about what kind of involvement the school system has. [it has some and a few teachers concentrate on it; Project WET; but an interest is being heard from interviewees about wanting more -- but funding and curriculum is a problem] But, that's where hospitals and the medical profession might be engaged more. [push of

O'bama regarding weight loss] Well, the diabetes epidemic. Certainly that is a link to healthy living and I have a real strong connection to that. But, I think the National Diabetes Foundation and probably the National Lung Association, the Heart Association. Well, I come from a hospital background. My first ten years of fundraising was with Phoenix Children's Hospital Foundation. And, my oldest daughter, while I was there in the employ of the Foundation, earning my stripes, my oldest daughter was diagnosed with juvenile diabetes. And, we became very aware of the connection between activity and good blood sugars and healthy eating. So, we became a very active family just to help her maintain good glucose control. [helps with strategic planning with Clarkdale Sustainability Park; health issues were weaving in; education about health] And, the thing is, with diabetes. It's not diabetes that kills diabetics. It's heart disease. So, a heart-healthy community, and heart disease is the number one killer in the nation, so I think there is a real connection between healthy lifestyles, the river and the health community.

Q7. Well, there is not enough money, staff, organizations who conduct the education that we need. There just isn't. I mean, here is a real simple example. But for lack of maybe $35,000, Arizona State Parks doesn't have a group tour individual, a marketing department that drives the very foundation of its budget and that's the Enhancement Fund. Now, out of group tours and out of that marketing department, comes publications, information, you know, web...they're just struggling to get E-blast newsletters out about parks, specifically. But, when it comes to advancing sustainable economic development, it's the same issue. It's 'who is on the ground; who is funding the kind of on-the-ground work disseminating information. Who is the conduit between groups that work? We were lucky that state parks stepped up and said, 'look, we think this brain trust thing is the best.' But, I was staffed. I was paid to make sure that we kept on track and that we will continue to have dialogue. Now, that affected the outgrowth which was The Friends of the Verde River Greenway ultimately. So, and the study that NAU did was an outgrowth of that on the watershed. So, I think that you've got to have somebody that's continually driving the issue. And, there is just, right now, I just don't see investments in that kind of personnel that can reach out, develop the kind of material that you need, connect with the groups that you need, and keep the issue alive. That's hard. So, this kind of funding and support through this kind of work, is what gets you down the road a little bit further.

Q8. Me! Certainly the State Park Foundation will be most ineterested in this. Absolutely. And, the State Park system, I'm certain. Other stakeholders...I'll tell you what would be interesting is, you know, I'm interested in replicating the birding festival down in the Sonoita Area because I've always tried to make this connection between Sonoita Creek and the river down there and the Verde River Greenway. I think there are so many similarities and so many similar issues and challenges that I've always tried to push a connection between those two groups and I just never seem to get...; Sonoita Creek struggled because they closed..you know, it's kind of like the relationship between the Verde River Greenway, the parks system, how it's managed, and Deadhorse. It's the same kind of reliant condition that Sonoita has on Patagonia Lake staffing. And, there's just not buy-in. It's a 'rec' lake, you know. They rely on camping. So, the health of the creek tends to take a back seat. I would imagine that communities in that Sonoita Creek/river area and all the watershed into the Santa Cruz down there, probably would be as interested in the kind of economic benefits and what you see from this study as anybody else in the state. [you've brought up Sonoita Creek; I'm thinking about efficiencies between connecting events here and there; duplication of efforts] We started talking about this a month ago. I wanted Barbie to come and work for me in the Foundation and do the birding festival in about two or three locations. I just meant...at a 30,000 feet level and gain the buy-in of other supporters that would implement. I'm not sure they even do the birding festival in Yuma any more. But, it is...I'm on that. I'm having conversations with the Friends of Sonoita Creek about putting together a structure of 3-5 folks who would have a significant interest right away and just to talk to her because she's built the bible already. I

don't need to go there and recreate the wheel. And so, we're on the same track. [Barbie's problem is how to handle all the people] I tried to suggest that, 'look, let us help you.' Instead of ...off the work, I got a call from Sam Campana once. She called to make a reservation and couldn't get in. Head of the Audubon Society, statewide. I thought, 'Oh, my God.' Never say 'no.' We just have to find a way to make this larger; make it facilitated so you can grow because you are kind of stuck; you know, you're limited. [limitations?] I only have so many volunteers and they are already fried by the end of the event] She and I spent days talking about this at one point in time. This is five years ago we were talking about this. You know, when I was with state parks and I was saying, there are opportunities, I think, that we are missing, to expand this thing. But, I think she's just tired and burned out and it's hard to see beyond the structure that you build and there is some fear. [also operating in the fesitval system is that it's tied to the Cottonwood Chamber] I know. I tried to take it; I tried to buy it. I wanted the Foundation to host it in partnership with the Cottonwood Chamber. And, I offered and she [Barbie] said no, I'm not going to do that. [you know, they are getting to where they are making $6,000-$7,000/year] I could raised $25,000 - $50,000 for this thing and get her help - paid interns. And, we could roll the benefits, we could roll any revenue that was gained back into the next years festival and get some real -- build a building on the park. I went as far as to get a budget out of development at State Parks on building an amphatheater down there because I asked her what her biggest cost was -- it was the tent. I said, 'this is crazy.' All we need to do is go down there and pour a slab and just have a shell but have it be a facility that could evolve into a commercial kitchen, a community meeting house that would be utilized again and again and again and would bring people into the park. I mean, I got a budget for that and it was cheap. But, I couldn't get step one done; that was talking her into going to the Chamber and saying, 'I think we might have a partner, you know, that can help us expand this. And, the benefit would have been, gee, by now, five years down the road, we could have had 20,000 people coming -- you know over a week. [Barbie might need bigger picture people on the board; I only do trips and education during the fesitval] I've just circled to get past that barrier. [not to say anything negative about Barbie] No. Absolutely. But, I think she feels like, oh, who is going to do it. You know, and I don't blame her. I understand that. So, it's somewhat daunting when you take a look at what else you might be faced with.

[general comments] [targeted funding] Well, my first inclination is somewhat selfish but I would invest money in that Rockin' River Ranch. I would absolutely spend some money down there. I would make it a destination and it would be an environmental eduation center as well as a operating Bed and Breakfast. It's already got...it's right on the river and I think canoeing, tours, water education programs for schools, I think we could do a lot with the facility that we've already got. But, it needs some help. I think that would be part of addressing the education curve. I wish I knew what that budget was. I would bet it could take, it wouldn't take more than a couple million bucks, I bet. [I think so too; what else] I'm limited in my understanding of what the river really needs. Probably, I need about five more Chip Nortons. I think it's the kind of investment in people who have ...who are well connected; who have a deep understanding of what the needs are; I would buy some people. [to do what?] Probably gather the data -- the information -- and bring these communities together. Because what I hear about the Verde Valley is that there are 30 different groups all with their own agenda -- water oriented groups, and I would think there could be some consolidation of those missions. But, it takes somebody who understands all of that to build the bridge. And, the kind of energy that's expended when you have 30 different groups going 30 different directions, the kind of impetus that could be created with the consolidation of that energy, I think, would get you past an awful lot of hurdles that exist right now. [what do we call the group?] Call it Friends of the Verde River Greenway. It is an overarching organization that, I think could, in time, be the bridge-builder. [who is doing the work other than C. Norton] Well, I don't know enough about the players but I certainly know on the ground down there,

Bob Rothrock is involved. Certainly the folks who have been involved in the Friends -- Tony Gioia, I know has a deep interest. I just don't know enough about...I haven't been up there nearly enough in the last couple of years to keep engaged with the players or learn who the new faces are. You know, who is moving in or who did or who has recently retired and has a little more time on their hands -- I don't know who those players are. But, Chip Norton does.

[who else s/b interviewed] Anyone else from state parks? [just Max] I would interview, who is the regional...I'm trying to think, oh, he's not with state parks any more and I don't know where he went, but I would interview Dan Shine. Dan Shein was the head of Resources Management at State Parks until just recently. And Dan was one of the state park systems [jobec?] liaisons at the state capital before he came to state parks. He has got a depth of knowledge. [retired now?] Yes. I can find contact information for him. [please send me that; I'd like to get ahold of Ken too] I keep in touch. They are dear friends of mine. I've known them for 25 years -- long before I worked for state parks. Sure, Ken would be great and, I'm assuming, you've already talked to Dan Campbell. Has anybody talked to Sam Campana or somebody from Audubon? [horizon didn't reach to Phoenix; time restrictions] Oh, I went through the same thing. I was lucky to get so many of you in the room all at one time.

[concerns about the study] Don't let it fade! You know, I think folks fall into the pit of - oh, here's my big challenge I'll get this done.' I've done the work; it gets the press release and then it goes in a drawer. And we found that was the case with the state parks and the economic study. If state parks had really focused, I think, on publishing the economic impact data that it had over the last 10 years, we wouldn't be having this conversation. And, getting the data -- I would update it. I wouldn't let it just rest. I would pursue a 3-5 year update so that you can track where your successes have led you and you can face, then again, the challenges that have evolved that you didn't...that you weren't tracking right now, because there will be new ones. [what next in five years is unknown] Right. I never thought I'd be here 10 years ago. Who knew? You know. But, absolutely, we find completely different challenges than we thought we'd be facing just in terms of the foundation. For crying out loud, I thought fundraising was going to be the big nut to crack. Well, that's nothing compared to what I'm doing down here now. [done with survey; anything to add?] I commend your efforts. This is wonderful. [tribute to WFF] [prior conversations w/Margaret about one org that gathers, disseminates info, etc. as a central repository w/cogent, reliable and credible agency -- way to gather info with credibility and legitimacy; describing that with Friends of the Verde River Greenway with devoted paid staff]

Dougs description of org: Margaret knows. I tell her all the time how fortunate we are to have that organization pouring this money in here and doing it right, you know, and going out and talking to everybody. She did a huge amount of work making sure that she'd covered all the bases; that she wasn't creating political rivalries; and all of those kind of things -- very aware of that kind of stuff. It's so easy to get into -- and they are so destructive. But, one of the things that I started talking to her about, in fact, Dan Campbell and I started talking 2 1/2 years ago, we need one organization that gathers all this information; that disseminates it back out, that is responsible for educating elected officials, the public, business, who really understands what is going on in all these different realms out there -- puts it together in some cogent, reliable and credible way so that it was like ... If this organization says this is so, then that's good information and we don't all have to sit around and discuss whether or not they got it from this place or that place. Their word is good. If you have that kind of credible organization out there doing this, and having them going to...I was thinking they'd be visiting town councils at least once a year, or they would have a new elected officials thing every year, you know, and make sure that the newly elected officials understood how the river worked; what the system was; how it was inter-related. That's the kind of an organization that could really make things happen right up there. I think that's kind

of what you're describing with the Friends of the Verde River Greenway that could evolve into that kind of an organization and it would have to be a funded, you know. You've got on-staff people that work and are paid, have pension, all of that stuff, and they are just as devoted to doing this work as all of these volunteers you have out there now who are, frankly, have exactly the same problem that Barbie Hart has. Her problem is this is voolunteer driven, it's volunteer operated and you wear them out. You don't have unlimited volunteer hours. But you get paid staffs and you can do a whole lot more because you're doing it 365 days a year. So, that...

Cristie: And, you've got some continuity. That's the other thing. You know, when you lose volunteers because of one reason or the other, you lose the curve...you lose that institutional memory and when you've got staff you've got a little bit more of a realiable resource.

Doug: The caveat you said, "Don't let it die. Reassess it in 3-5 years. Make sure it's a living thing and you need that kind of an organization to do that. I can say this won't set on the shelf but unless you're paying me to keep it off the shelf...

Cristie: I think an organization with staff is justified. I think you have justification for pursuing an organization that's paid in staff. But, I think it would certainly pay in the long run when you talk about the economic impacts of the health of that river and the quality of life impacts that we all recognize and generate. But, I think that certainly justifies making the investment.Casey interviews Deborah Emmanuel, the Verde Food Council, meeting at the Church of the Red Rocks in SedonaQ 1: What do you think are the most significant factors influencing the health of the Verde River system?There's the obvious one of pollution. The cleaner the water the better off we all are. The flow. The irrigation ditches that take away from the river. The dam that is more or less managed by humans that doesn't necessarily serve the ecology of the river. There are times when they shut the irrigation ditches moving the water, diverting the water, for our purposes, doesn't necessarily serve the wildlife that live in those ecosystems. I think that there are ways, and we've got to get creative on this. There are ways that we can maintain the ecosystem of the river and still be able to use it for economic development at the same time. I think that's important that we consider that.

Q2: Do you feel there are things about the Verde River that we need to understand better? If so, what are they?I think the ecology around the river is something that we need to understand better and try to work more with rather than just using it for our own purposes and not considering the animal life, the vegetation around the river. I think that's the biggest thing. As far as I'm understanding the river itself, it's going to do what it does and I think that more than understanding is working with the natural flow of it. There's understanding involved in that I think.

Q 3: To your knowledge what, if any, economic development activities have recently been, or are currently being, conducted that directly relate to the Verde River? Who is involved in these activities? I'm not aware of any of that. What I am aware of because the Verde Food Council is involved in agriculture and putting the green back in Verde, the river is essential to that process. We can't increase agriculture without water. So the irrigation ditches are key to that and there is an effort going right now to insure that people who have irrigation ditches on their property don't lose them. That's important because there is land that is zones for agriculture with irrigation ditches on it. And if it's not being used for agriculture, then after a certain amount of time of those ditches not being used, then people would

lose the right to the water. We're working toward increasing the amount agriculture here. It's only 5% right now. We need it to be a lot higher than that. And we have the potential for it to be higher for as long as we can have access to the water. (Most people we talk to want to get rid of the impact of the ditches.) I don't know what would be involved in changing the way that the irrigation ditches are being done. For agricultural purposes, they're essential. We really need them. I don't know if it's possible to not divert the water at all, to get rid of the irrigation ditches and drill for wells so that people have their own well system. That would probably go a long ways in saving the river, but it's pretty costly. I don't know if it's in fact even feasible. (Verde Food Council is one of the organizations very interested in the river and involved in economic development activities.) That's directly involved with sustainability and survivability. With gas prices going up, and food prices going up. When I was at New Frontiers yesterday, I overheard a conversation where I was shopping where one of the stock people was saying that these prices are going up. Really, they're going. And I've been reading articles that they expect double or triple the food prices and gas prices between now and the end of summer. It's really good information to have though if it's really going to happen because we need to be proactive. Growing more food is the only way I know to counter that. We don't have any control over the food prices. They're determined by Wall St. ; they're determined by people who don't live here and don't really care. They're looking after their own pocketbooks. I guess that's understandable. We don't have to live in their emergency if we are proactive. And the water is critical...what we do with the water here is critical to that goal. Some of the articles say, I don't want to be a downer but we've got to think about water because they say that we're 3-4 days starvation. If the trucks stopped for whatever reasons bringing the food into the Verde Valley, we're only using 5% of our land for agriculture. That's not enough to feed people. What would we do? In three days, the stores would be empty. Then there's no more food. So that's the whole point of the Verde Valley Food Council. Helping people, to educate them, to motivate them to be more proactive because it's a time that we need to be proactive. We need to take back our right to eat and not let the government own our food supply which they do right now. We need to own our own food supply and water. They can't happen without water. So you've really connected to survivability.

Q 4: What potential economic development opportunities exist which are associated with the Verde River system in the Verde Valley? Agriculture. Part of the issue with the amount of property that is here. Arizona is the second poorest state in the country, next to Mississippi. Last year it was #3 from the bottom, this year it's #2 from the bottom. We're not being proactive. We're still on a downhill slide. My goal would be to prevent Arizona from being #1 from upping Mississippi and saying Arizona's the poorest state. It we continue on the decline that we're in, that's possible. So job development and job creation is really important. If we really value our water and the watershed and the sources of that then creating jobs that would support the flow of the river, that would do more research to find out if irrigation ditches are beneficial or not. I don't know the answer to that question. My sense is that we're not doing justice to the ecology and the wildlife that live near the river. I don't know that for a fact. So this study and more studies are important to really figure out if we're doing the right thing. Not only for use, but for life. (Ideas for job creation?) Food dollars that stay in the community triple or quadruple in circulation so they really add a lot of benefit to any location. Seattle just did a study and they determined that if they kept 20% of the food that is grown in Seattle, they would increase the city revenues by $1B. It keeps the money local so it continues to circulate and so it multiplies. Those are the kinds of things that we need to think about. I read an article within the last few months that said that 50% of the jobs in the next ten years don't even exist yet. So it's not necessarily just retail jobs, not job jobs, it's creative entrepreneurial jobs that are in the process of evolving now. There's lots of green jobs. If we're going to push to change the ratio of agricultural land in the valley from 5% to 25% maybe or more, there are lots of businesses that could

support that process. Cities as well. If we make that a priority and start working toward thinking about what do we need to support that much of an increase in agricultural production here and the distribution, keeping that local as well. The good jobs are in researching the technology and learning the technology. Distribution and retail, that's always part of it. I think that the support is needed. Agriculture doesn't happen all by itself. There needs to be support in place. We're in Arizona, and we need to have solar powered greenhouses. There's lots of technology and support that need to happen in order for us to happen in order for us to increase the agriculture that much. Those are all possible jobs. What they look like remains to be seen. I don't really know. Solar and wind make a lot of sense. There are companies that would be able to thrive if we were able to look into that. Diesel, growing crops that could be used for biodiesel fuel. The process, a distillation process that you can put vegetable oil through where the only by-product is glycerin. We could get into the soap making business. Soap making and lotions and thinks like that that use pure glycerin. There are all kinds of entrepreneurial things that will come and will evolve as we start looking into all of these little doorways that are opening up for us. Biodiesel US is already happening. They've already got biodiesel fuel recycled from vegetable oil from restaurants that they're putting in one of the school system buses in Cottonwood. We could do more of that. That's needing to grow more. That's just recycling. Recycling opportunities, green jobs, I think are really important. We need to start paying attention to the environment. Not paying attention to the environment isn't really working that well for us, in the long run. I wish I could have some more specifics. I know that as we start opening these doors and exploring different avenues in agriculture, we're going to see all kinds of things that we wouldn't have thought of. Good jobs.

Q 5: In your opinion, what information and facts are there that could be used to promote and advance the connection between the Verde River and potential sustainable economic development in the Verde Valley? It's critical that we make that connection with the river. We won't be able to grow food without it. To justify it, the Verde Food Council did a study in 2009 and determined that, and it was an unduplicated study, it was very carefully done so that we knew that the figure we got were accurate. One in seven people in 2009 were food insecure, were using the emergency food system on some level whether food stamps or food banks or congregate meals, whatever in the Verde Valley. Out of 72,000 people in the valley, between 11,000 and 15,000 were food insecure. I was doing a talk at West Sedona School a couple of months ago. I had a class of 20 7th and 8th graders and said, "How many of you have ever worried about not having enough food?" Three-quarters of the kids raised their hands. My sense is that not necessarily all of those kids are going hungry, but they hear conversations about how are we going to pay our bills, what's going to happen and kids internalize it. They become worried about it. That affects their learning ability, it affects their motivation, their productivity in school and in life, if they're worried about their own survival. Our future is if 3/4 of the kids in Sedona are worried about that. Right now in Sedona in that school that I was in, 67% of the kids are on free and reduced lunches which means that their families supposedly qualify financially to have help with that. In Rimrock, it's 95%, Camp Verde is 95%, Cottonwood is 80-something %. So the need is great. Again, it's a survival issue. If we've got this many people hungry now. We've got the need here. The need to make sure we do something different than we have been doing, because we went from #3 last year in poverty, from the bottom, to #2 this year. That doesn't sound real encouraging. With food and gas prices going up, this is only going to deepen. The one-in-seven figure was from 2009. In 2010, the numbers went up in the food bank another 50%. In 2011, they're going up every day we get more. Verde Valley Caregivers Coalition gets between 10 and 12 new clients every week for people who need support and need help. We need to be nervous. This is the reality of our community. If we push it on the back burner and say no we can't have guidance for the food banks because we don't want the tourists to know that we need a food bank here. Those kind of things are counter-productive because it shoves it under the rug. The longer we shove it

under the rug, the more it declines. If we do nothing, the government is cutting fund drastically. I'm headed to DC on Friday and another fact is that the House of Representatives just passed a budget for the country that cut needed programs for the needy and the poor $65B and they say they need that for the functioning of the government. $65B cut from the programs that are now just barely keeping peoples head above water will push our economy over the edge. I recommend not cutting that budget for starters. That's one of the reasons I'm going to DC. What I suggest is that I say Yea!, the government step in the way, they're not going to take care of us anymore, and with that comes the fact that they're not going to limit us anymore. All of the regulations that go with federal money keep schools in a noose and most government agencies are in a noose because they can't move because they've got to stick with these government regulations. We're being freed from that. I say great. Now we can do it our way. Sedona just took back 89A. We get to do it our way. We don't have to have the ugly lights, the flood lights that they were going to use. We can put any kind of lights up that we want to and as few as we want to. It gives us more control in our own community. We get to take back our food sovereignty. I went to Tuba City to talk to the people, the Navajo Nation was wanting to start their own food council, and they called me up there to talk with them. On the reservation, obesity and diabetes are epidemic. It's like 75%, kids and adults. They're eating junk because that's what's there. And it's cheaper. As people's funding is shrinking, they're trying to find more food with less money, which means quantity. There's a huge amount of education that needs to happen in order for all of us to come into place. As we get to take back our food sovereignty, what I tell people is that every time you spend a dollar, you are voting for something. Think about what you're voting for. Bill McDormand did a talk and he said that he'd just read a report that said that 80% and this is sickening, but 80% of the calories that are consumed in this country are from soda. 80%! Dead calories that just put sugar and chemicals into our bodies. No wonder disease is so rampant. I don't drink soda. I never have. I don't like it. If we do nothing, the government will continue to pull back its support and poverty and disease will continue. The price of food? They're already predicting, they whoever they are, but indications are that by the end of summer, it will be double or triple what it is now. If we increase production here, we get to say how much it is. We get to control it and we get to do it based on the actual value of the food, not based on some Wall Street company that says, 10 years ago said, in 2011, we want to make this much profit so let's spike the prices so that we can do that. That's what the food prices are based on. Futures that were bought 10 years ago. It's all a game to the people on Wall Street. They're messing around with hundreds of thousands of people's health and their lives. What I told the people in Tuba City is that, if you don't want to continue to buy the processed foods that you've been eating, then you need to stop buying it. If you stop buying it, the grocery stores will change. If you don't stop buying it, the grocery stores will continue to do what they've always done. The Verde Food Council is promoting nutrition classes throughout all of the community, we're promoting gardening classes so that people can grow their own food. In Russia, 85% of the food consumed in Russia is grown in backyard gardens. It doesn't matter what the government does. They're all set. Now if we take back this control and learn how to grow food and promote cities and communities help the farmers to expand and increase what they're producing then as the government cuts funding, which they're going to do no matter what, than we increase our sustainability and work together and get to know each other as a community. (Would you like to see McDonald's go out of business or sell food that was healthy??) My goal is not to see anyone go out of business and be in the situation that we're trying to remedy here. My goal is to see everyone flourish, but we can't flourish if we're eating dead food that is processed, that the body doesn't even recognize. We need to make different choices for ourselves. All of this is based on our availability of water.

Q 6 Who are important potential supporters in advancing the connection between a healthy Verde River and sustainable economic development?

City leaders, city councilmembers, all of the city leaders because they determine...county as well, because policy that directly affects this community is determined by cities and counties. At the state level, that's important too, but not so much so far as the river access goes. City and county policy need to... We had a gathering 2 weeks ago, we called it "We love our farmers". It was on Valentine's day. We talked about what is preventing us from growing more food here and keeping the distribution local. One question was what is preventing us and the other question was how can we remedy those limitations. The two things that came up rose to the top from that discussion were policy...we desperately need policy change and we need more education of the public. Policy changes so that you can sell your food that's grown in stores and provide it to schools. We're putting gardens in every school in the valley in the next 2 years. My goal is to have accomplished that. But the schools can't use the food in the cafeteria because the USDA won't let them. The schools are one of the organizations that are in a huge noose right now because as long as they take the money from the government and they have to follow the rules or they lose it. I don't know that we'll ever get USDA support, but the good news is that, my understanding is and I could be wrong about it, county regulations can supersede federal. We, I don't know if this is a good thing to say, I'll put this in a personal note, not representing the Verde Food Council because I think that's important. It's just my opinion and I don't know that I can speak for the rest of the council members, but there are many federal laws that are being passed right under our noses right now, this budget is one of them, a lot of them, that don't serve the greatest good of the few who already have power and keeping their power. Then they're not consulting the masses, they're just passing the laws. If that's the case, my personal take on it is you didn't consult me. It's not my law. We vote them in to represent us, and then they're not representing us. We need to say no, even after we vote them in. They’re good at getting voted in. Not so good at doing what they said they would do. That's common knowledge. Everyone in the US must know that about politicians. There's got to be a system in place where we can say, okay we voted for you, but you're not doing what you said, so we're going to vote for somebody else. (Gas prices go up and freeways are still jammed. Food prices go up and people are still eating?) We're very well-conditioned. We like convenience. It's much more convenient to hop in the car and drive and bite the bullet and swallow hard and pay the gas prices than it is to ride a bike. City transportation...we have a little of that going on here, but it's really not adequate. If we were to, if gas prices were to continue going up and people would have to say I can't do it anymore, what would we do? We don't have a system that's adequate. Cities and local readers really need to start looking at taking back control and having systems in place so that we can do this on our own. Cottonwood's is better than Sedona's. Other communities have nothing. So they're isolated. There's no transportation. What do those people do? We don't have a system in place for that. City leaders are critical, but the people, the members of each community have to start stepping up and saying I want a say in what happens here. We've gotten very complacent and we've gotten into a mindset where oh, they'll take care of it. And they're not taking care of it in our favor. We need to take that power back. For supporters, I would say that community education. That's the only way we're going to get the majority of our community members on board with this and this can't happen without full support of everyone in the community. It's got to be that kind of grassroots. That's what we're doing. That's the only way it's going to happen.

Q 7: What or who do you see as current or potential barriers to advancing sustainable economic development in connection with a healthy river( for example, laws and regulations, property rights, institutional like ditch companies, water companies, historic uses, etc.), changing cultural values? (If response is that “there are too many,” ask for top 3-5…interviewer’s discretion)Barriers are the lack of education, people just not quite getting what's going on around them and not choosing to be in a place of power, whether it's conscious or unconscious. They're stepping back and saying that somebody else will deal with it. It's too big, I can't do it. If all of us come together, it's not

too big. Education is key. The policies that keep...we had a goat herder at the roundtable discussion that we did. She can't sell her goat milk to her neighbors. It's illegal for her to sell her goat milk to her neighbors. It's crazy. (It's not pasteurized?). People are trying to make ends meet in Sedona, there's a regulation that says you can only own 2 chickens, no more than 2 chickens and you can't have a rooster. What good is that? There are regulations that prevent us from being sustainable. Local regulations as well as at every level...local, county, state, federal, all of it. We need to step up and say No, these laws are not supporting us, they're not our laws and they're not working for us. (do people say, I don't want a rooster living right next to me?) I don't, but if they're hungry and it gets to the point where food is doubled or tripled in price and gas has tripled in price, they're going to be motivated differently. The motivation is just not there because the awareness isn't there. Most people just continue to continue without the awareness. They don't realize that what they see on the news isn't the reality that is actually happening. People are shocked when I tell them that 1 in 7 people in the Verde Valley two years ago were hungry. Now it's, I don't have the exact number, but it's increased considerably. Now 1 in 4 kids in the US are food insecure, 1 in 4. 1 in 4 children are also obese or overweight. That's rising. They're predicting that if it continues on the path that it is, by 2020, 75% of Americans will be obese or overweight. If we do nothing. It adds to medical costs. It's literally killing people. It's not healthy. We need to educate people about those statistics. 17.5 million children in the US are hungry. That means that 17.5 million children in the US have compromised learning ability because they're not focused nor motivated to learn because they're too worried about their own life. Supposedly we one of the most advanced nations in the world, but it's not going in a good direction for the US. All the other countries are surpassing us in education. Education in schools and in the community. That's what we're doing. We're working in the schools, we've got a whole curriculum that goes along with the school gardens that we're implementing in every school that's ready to do that. The kids get a whole different feel for where their food comes from. Kids that have never eaten fresh vegetable before are saying wow, I want to eat this. I'm not talking to kids as much as I'd like to. I'd like to have more time to be in schools. But I do visit schools and talk to...be part of the curriculum for teaching them about hunger. With kids, it's 1 in 4. When you include adults in 2009, it's 1 in 7. Here, it's 1 in 7. In Camp Verde, it's 25% of the kids that are hungry. A little insecure. Hunger is as much an emotional experience as it is a physical experience because it affects us emotionally as well as mentally. If we've got 17.5 million kids in the US learning compromised because of food, what is our future going to look like? We're not investing in our future at all if we're letting this happen. I went to a conference that Mary Ann Williamson put on a year ago and she was talking about every 5 minutes a child somewhere in the world dies of hunger. Basically there are organizations that are trying to help, but basically most Americans just say oh well, that's there. It's happening here. It's not at the same rate. 1 in 4 children are hungry in the US, but 1 in 4 children are also overweight or obese. So they're not undernourished necessarily, although there are some who are, but they're malnourished. They're eating bad food. Mal means bad. They're bad food which is causing them to be obese. It's not that they're eating too much food which most Americans will say...oh, they're eating too much. They're just eating bad foods. That's where all that education can come in. So those are the limitations because... They're systemic issues that have gotten to an acute stage that we have got to start addressing them or acute problems.

Q 8: Who do you think might be interested in using the findings of this Verde River Economic Development Study, including the results of interviews such as this one?Everyone who eats. Back to the education. The whole community needs to know. Like our farmers roundtable that we did last month, we're doing another one in March and in April. Our goal is to have roundtable discussions with the community every month. I'm hoping that each month, we get more interest in them. Roundtable discussions on this. The idea of decisions being made from the top down, I think we're outgrowing it and it's time for communities to make decisions and come together and get

all the right facts . To get the right facts, to get real information that is accurate and then make deciions together based on that. When misinformation is disseminated, we can't possible expect to have good decisions made. The answers to questions depend on the questions being asked that are going to serve us. I think everyone needs to be involved. Community roundtables discussions. ??? 40:48 does them. Really bringing the community together to let them know that it's good to work together. We can accomplish more together than we can separately.

What ideas do you have to make the Verde River a focal point for regional economic development?What used to happen way back in the Stone Age, communities built up around rivers because they needed the water power. I don't know where that technology went. It's still available in some places. That's another creative option, between using the river for water power and solar energy and wind energy, we could be off the grid. The whole valley could be off the grid if we were able to do that. Between the Verde River and Oak Creek and Wet Beaver Creek, there's a lot of energy there. We're not tapping into it at all. That's one thing. That's got to be done consciously with environmental consciousness. The way it was done before wasn't necessarily in favor of the river and the wildlife. With the sustainability study, with the environmental study that goes along with what we need to understand about the river and the life around it, there are ways that we could tap into the energy of that water, the potential energy in that water and use it for everyone's greatest good. It might be more efficient to do that than to divert the river. I'm not an engineer so I don't have the answer to that. Exploring different options are important. Exploring other places. I know that Marin County has a pretty amazing county plan. There are places that are doing these things already. All we need to do is tap into a program that we can plug in here...not reinvent the wheel. Duplication of efforts is a waste of energy and it happens all the time on every level of government. So communicating with all the levels of government even if it's just a we're not doing it your way. Sometimes it's going to need to be that with some of the decisions that are being made from the top down. They don't serve us and we need to let them know that. Never been on the river, been on others, spent months doing boat trips in Maine and FloridaAnother economic entrepreneurial option is getting on the water (discussion that it is happening) I don't think the river should be used for that (green grass). That's just my opinion. It should be used, if it's going to be diverted, for something that serves, grows food, agricultural purposes. I haven't studied enough and I don't have all the answers, but we need to re-look at that. Having green grass is nice, but it's not necessarily a reason to kill the lower part of the river. How long in the Verde Valley: 2.5 yearsHow do you interact with the river: am in awe every time I go over it on the road; spent a lot of time walking along it on different trails, not just the Verde, but Oak Creek and Beaver Creek; loves water; critical to have access to beautiful scenery with running water; access Jail Trail; noticed Verde is muddy as compared to Oak and Beaver Creeks...diversion? pollution? If you had $5M, what would you do with it to benefit the Verde River?It could be more of a focal point than it is. We have the Riverside Park. Having more places like that where people could go to enjoy it. Making it more accessible so that people could go to appreciate it. The nice thing is that when people really start to appreciate any area of nature, there's a respect that develops from that appreciation that is beneficial to everyone and all the life on the river as well. One thing that I've noticed as a teacher is that we have lost the awe in the kids' eyes and it breaks my heart. We need to put the awe back. Nature is the best source of doing that. Making it accessible, showing off the beautiful river. It changes people. People come here and have never seen the river. I would use a couple of million for that...access points to the river. Public access that really shows off the river. I still think that what I mentioned earlier about having more wells, drilled wells, and I don't know how deep you have to go here, but so that diversion isn't as critical. So we can keep more of the water in the river

itself. In an ideal world, I would like to have less of the river diverted. I think it's a 60/40 split diverted, I can't remember which is diverted, but I think that's too high. I also recognize because of the food issue that we need to have access to that water. There is land that has its own well and they're set. The water's good so long as you don't use it up. Somebody asked me about sustainability of the programs that the Verde Food Council is doing. If we're going to be pushing sustainability, we've got to have a sustainable program, but the good news is, that with education that we're putting most of our energy into, when you use education, you don't use it up. Use some of that money on education. That would be a worthwhile use. So $2M for river access, maybe the wells wouldn't be a practical thing, I'd have to research that. It doesn't necessarily take money to educate. The education's going to happen. The Verde Food Council is taking care of that, we've got that one covered. That's part of the mix, but it doesn't necessarily have to cost a lot of money. We have volunteers literally coming out of the woodwork. Bless their hearts. To say that I have some skills that I'd like to teach classes regarding food saving, composting, cooking, nutrition classes, all of it. We're looking to increase the number of places where we can do that. I want several classes happening in each community. I'd like it to be once a week. In Cottonwood, the Rec Center has committed to 12 classes for the year 2011. We've got 4 families from Old Town Mission who have been using the services of Old Town Mission because they need them. One of the people, Nancy Godchalk , she's amazing, a master's student from NAU, doing a project here. She's got 4 families who are going to come into the community garden in Cottonwood and learn how to garden for themselves. They'll have access to all the food that they want to grow. (have Small Business Services to help) That support would help (offer of facility as a meeting space). Then spend some money on research to determine what alternatives there are to river diversion.

Who else to interview: Chris Anderson and Lisa Rayner, John Neville, Jacques Serond , communicate with some of the Save Beaver Creek or Save Rimrock groupsAnything about this study that concerns you? Sounds like you're really working without an agenda other than coming up with good answers to help the whole community, exploration is a perfect way to discoverBecky interview of Lisa O'Neill, Feb. 15, 2011, at Verde Canyon Railroad, recording okay, citation okay, would like to review report if cited, speaking on her behalf not on behalf of VVRR

(Recorder inadvertantly turned off in beginning)

Q 1: What do you think are the most significant factors influencing the health of the Verde River system?An ever increasing population. The more and more people that there are knowing less and less about the river is impacting the health of the river. Climate change is impacting the health of the Verde River system. We have less water and less temperatures that are conducive to good habitat along the river.

Q2: Do you feel there are things about the Verde River that we need to understand better? If so, what are they?Absolutely, the most important thing that we need to understand is the upstream economy. What is the driving force at the headwaters of the Verde River? Is it totally economic driven, to just be able to build more houses? Or is there more of a political drive there. We need to educate people and to develop a more proactive, ecologically minded population. There's been a neglect to bring kids along, to bring adults along, as to what is going on with not just our water, but our whole environment. There seems to be a lot of talk about it, but very little action about it. Different agencies get out and speak about it, but there's little carry through or any action is usually a short-term action. It would be good to understand the development in Paulden as well as some of the things going on that are impacting the economy. We need

to make sure these things are good for the river. For example, the wine industry. I can't imagine it not being good for the river. However, is anybody making sure that it is as well as understanding what the human impact on the river is as we look at developing it further.

Q 3: To your knowledge what, if any, economic development activities have recently been, or are currently being, conducted that directly relate to the Verde River? Who is involved in these activities? Plans to go on if they're not being shelved because of the current economic situation, but development in the Paulden area. There's supposed to be major housing developments that are very much involve the river. Not much locally. I know that Alcantera Vineyards has wanted to put a vineyard up at the other end, but that is just a twinkle in her eye. She doesn't have any land use permits or anything like that going. It's a pretty remote area and hard to get to which is part of its salvation, I think. I'm talking about Perkinsville. From Perkinsville downstream. It is remote enough to the people that use it, take care of it. Like the Perkins. They keep their eye on things like off-road vehicles, camping. Small level, but they keep their eye on things, but if there was an effort to mine for gravel or something, they'd know about it and complain about it. I appreciate that. They ride their horses along that area, looking for cows. The staff at VVRR report some. Just the other day there was a cow stuck in the river and there was an APB out for Silkie Perkins. I have not heard of anything, but I feel sure that the VVRR staff would.

Q 4: What potential economic development opportunities exist which are associated with the Verde River system in the Verde Valley? I think that the whole Sycamore area is not, Clarkdale doesn't take advantage of it to the extent that it could. Not just Sycamore, but there is a wilderness area and we are a gateway to it. I'm not talking developed paths or anything like that. Just making people aware that it's out there. If people know what's out there, they're more inclined to protect it. That when they say there's two people living in a canyon, go ahead and bulldoze it. That brings business to the area. Birdwatchers, people who want to float down. Though it's tough. I know that Richard who runs the Sedona Adventure Tours tries really hard to work with us some way to get us to take rafts up the river so that he can have them float down. We sell train tickets for $80. We're not going to sell a one-way for $40 and displace an $80 person. Nor maybe a rafter wouldn't want to pay that much more. I know that that's an interesting area...recreation more than anything else is what I see is economic development to the area. Recreation includes photography and things like that and all of the support system that that brings. Food, transportation, sporting goods, Walmart.

Q 5: In your opinion, what information and facts are there that could be used to promote and advance the connection between the Verde River and potential sustainable economic development in the Verde Valley? I think that educating. And you don't want the river to be loved to death like Fossil Springs or Fossil Creek. People in Arizona have to understand the importance of free flowing water to their lives. It is an important, and I don't know if economic is the whole thing. It is economic because it is one of the values of living in Arizona. It's just so rare. Quality of life is economic development. Why would you want to move here if it's just Phoenix. But people do. (how long here?) I went to college at NAU, graduated in 1978, left for a couple of years and came back in '80. 31 years. Not a native Arizonan. Dad worked for an international company so I was born in Puerto Rico and traveled around and landed here. Same type of thing as a military brat. So education is primary. To make people aware of what's going on and the goodness of the area.

Q 6 Who are important potential supporters in advancing the connection between a healthy Verde River and sustainable economic development?Property owners. Municipalities. Definitely Game and Fish. They are wonderful, wonderful. Forest Service. Companies like ours that take people out there. The advantage of taking people out there...first of all this is business. This is not altruism in any way. This is a business. We're in it to make money. It's

a nice way to make money. The overriding feeling is really tough to market is peaceful. It's a very tranquil experience. It's not a thrill ride. People are thrilled. They come back with a sense of what the river is, what the habitat is, what the canyon is, I hope. We have a lot of repeat customers. It's not overwhelming, but word of mouth is our most effective advertising. Our advertising budget is almost non-existent because we just get out there and beat the bushes and when we do this, there's always somebody walking up and saying "Oh, we went on that ride and it's the best thing that we ever did" and blah, blah, blah. So that's what we bank on. You don't see billboards. We have a website. We do conferences. We're going to the AAA travel show this weekend. We're also doing a model train show this weekend. We'll be doing the Arizona Highways show. Arizona Highways would be another great partner, even though may be not because it's not a highway type scenario. I know it's ADOT funded. It's something that you need to see in Arizona, I think. Because it's really very accessible if you just put a little effort into it. They've done stories about the river and the Verde Valley. I have to quit thinking of just the canyon that way, but that's our perspective here from a commercial standpoint. The Tuzigoot area would be...people go down there anyway. It would be nice to have an easier access, because it gets trashed. You know, you go to your fishing spot and there's a mattress, dirty diapers, or it's gone because of private enterprise or residential needs. You can't easily get to the river. People hear about it when it's a pain in the butt.

Q 7: What or who do you see as current or potential barriers to advancing sustainable economic development in connection with a healthy river( for example, laws and regulations, property rights, institutional like ditch companies, water companies, historic uses, etc.), changing cultural values? (If response is that “there are too many,” ask for top 3-5…interviewer’s discretion)Everybody knows that Arizona water rights are almost written in stone. Although now you know that SRP never did have these permits. I'm sure they're pouring lots of money into it. SRP should be a good partner as well. They really should. But because our interests at this juncture are pretty much the same, which is don't let anybody else have the water. It's just a little selfish, but what the heck. If it works for us. I'm thinking economic development, I'm talking houses, mining, pollution threats to my knowledge have not been an issue yet, but we don't know that. There's pollution that's not necessarily in the river but to the side of the river. It's people putting stuff in ditches and in washes. That kind of threat. Part of the system is everything that would feed into the river. Wash off from the roads going into ditches or the washes especially. Dumping in washes. Wastewater systems. The location of wastewater systems. It's not a problem to my knowledge. Part of that is that we don't have...like on Broadway, there's not that much traffic. But every car that goes by drips a little bit of oil and it runs off and eventually what the surface of the road is made out of basically a petroleum product. And 89A. This whole side of the mountain, everything that falls. That's something else that development brings. Little by little we turn wilderness into roads and then it's gone.

Q 8: Who do you think might be interested in using the findings of this Verde River Economic Development Study, including the results of interviews such as this one?I would hope that the state of Arizona would be interested. I would hope that all of the municipalities that affect and are affected by the river. You need to start with people like Girl Scout groups and Boy Scouts and education so that if we're in a cycle, there has to be a place where you can start educating people where they'll care about it. Starting with the young kids. We work with Liberty Wildlife a lot. They always ask us before they can come up, "Can we bring this stuff". Absolutely, and it's things like fishing lines that are left out and old lead weights and all this stuff that really contributes to the degradation of the area. You're not going to tell them it does that because it they're going to get their backs up and say, "You tree huggers are all the same." But if you talk to a kid and show a child what's happening, then they're going to remember that. It's going to be an impression. The education piece would have to go with the additional use of the river. We have to be aware of what our footprint on the river is. We just had an incident a few months ago. There was a bald eagle very much in distress that the train crew spotted. Came back and called Fish and Game. They went out with our track crew the next day and one of our

gondola attendants who is really good, found the eagle, brought her back, and took her to Liberty. Her lead levels were off the scales high. She was dying of lead poisoning. We wrote a press release that this is a really cool thing that happened, and it's because of our association with Fish and Game and Liberty and having an educated person on the train that we can help. I got tons of responses. One of them was, "How do you know it was lead poisoning?" It's the vet said so. You're always going to run into that. People don't want to take responsibility for their actions. I'm probably the same way about different things. I drive my car just like everybody else. Use the petroleum products when I could walk. The group is Liberty Wildlife out of Scottsdale. McCain was talking federally and I don't know whatever happened to that. It was about the development in Paulden and I never heard what the resolution was. Whether there was anything there. So some sort of federal protection of the area. It is kind of, but it isn't kind of. We've got the Forest Service out there, all kinds of services but they're patchy and they can't deal with the origin. That's something else. So a cohesiveness would be good.

Should we know anything else?I am ashamed to say that I'm not that involved. Marsha Foutz would be a good person to interview. You've been here 31 years.

Do you have any other interaction with the river?I hike. I walk everyday and in the summertime, I walk down to the river and I always go down to see the changing leaves. I just enjoy it. I don't fish any more because I don't like all that crap.

What would you do with $5M to help the Verde River?Have a definitive headwater study. Studying, education. You can't tell people that they can't do something unless you've got facts to back it up. There are interpretations of every study that I've ever head about with the Paulden area. People interpret it different ways. So how do you make that definitive? I don't know, but if you gave me $5m I might find out.

Who else to talk to?Marsha Foutz, Liberty Wildlife--they get their fish from Page Springs, Richard Lynch, Barbara from Alcantera, Margaret in Cornville that everybody knows...she lives right at the confluence of Oak Creek and the Verde RiverCasey interviews Yavapai County Supervisor Carol Springer, March 1, 2011

Q 1: What do you think are the most significant factors influencing the health of the Verde River system?I guess I would have to say, scientific data and politics, probably are two of the most important things.

Q2: Do you feel there are things about the Verde River that we need to understand better? If so, what are they?It has to do with the science part of the first question and that's because the science about water issues is...if I can use an analogy, it would be like ??? 1:36 going to 10 different doctors and you'd probably get 10 different diagnoses. The thing is that different types of scientific information is interpreted differently by those various experts. Some of it is conflicting. That's where we also, the politics enters into it. So you get the political mixed with the scientific data and the scientific data what I've found to be absolutely true is that the people who do that kind of data collecting, they're human, too. And they input some of their own thinking into the way the data is presented. I think that we need to understand is that our data, the scientific data is very important, but that it is as much of an art as it is a science with regard to a lot of the technology part. There's just a lot going on, let's say, under the ground that we don't know.

Q 3: To your knowledge what, if any, economic development activities have recently been, or are currently being, conducted that directly relate to the Verde River? Who is involved in these activities?

I think the most recent and obviously is the wine business. The wineries that are springing up along the Verde River. Totally appropriate use of that particular type of land because it has all of the natural attributes to be successful. That's good. So far as relate directly to the river. I'm not sure if there have been a lot recently other than the wine business that I'm aware of anyway.

Q 4: What potential economic development opportunities exist which are associated with the Verde River system in the Verde Valley? I think primarily I'd have to say it has to do with recreation of all kinds, whether some form of tourism, from the park system, the trail systems. All of those kinds of things along the Verde system. I would say that it primarily related to recreational...or recreational and tourism. I guess they kind of go together.

Q 5: In your opinion, what information and facts are there that could be used to promote and advance the connection between the Verde River and potential sustainable economic development in the Verde Valley? I really don't think most people recognize that within the boundaries of Yavapai County, they're not aware of the vast diversity of the area. It's a big county. Within that county, there's so much diversity. I mean if you think of what you see in Sedona as opposed to what you see in the Verde as to what you see here in the mountains and the pines. It's just a tremendous diversity and I don't think people really see it. I've always thought that, and it's not my idea, I think they used to call it the Turquoise Triangle, the Golden Triangle, or something. It was promoting tourism on the route let's say from Prescott, up over Jerome, through to the Verde Valley, Sedona, and then making kind of the loop down to Camp Verde. So you kind of make a loop. You can kind of go either way. It's kind of a neat loop. I always thought that that loop route that showed off the diversity of the county was never used enough. We make that loop when friends or family come. You can do it in a day. You see Montezuma's Castle, there just all kinds of things that you can see along the way that are so different from each other. It's not like going one place and you see a different view of the same thing. Here you see really different things. And we're all part of it.

Q 6. Who are important potential supporters in advancing the connection between a healthy Verde River and sustainable economic development?It poses some problems because a lot of the people who really are strong supporters of the river do not want growth. So what comes into my mind is making or distinctioning your question between growth and economic development. Do you want just tourists to come in? Or do you want...we know we're going to have growth. It seems to me that this growth, or the potential to work for growth, should be not just tourism. That it should be for businesses to come in and other kinds of things. Manufacturing and whatever. I think that the biggest thing when you're talking about growth, I think the biggest market that we have is really for the retirees because we have some many positives that most retirees are looking for in terms of smaller communities, but we still have all the amenities, like hospitals and all that kind of stuff. Also that provide a less of a drain on things like the school systems, but they do on the other hand, require more in terms of medical services. I think that the medical services industry in Yavapai County is also another one that should be promoted because we can always use more medical services, more doctors, more specialists, and that sort of thing. (what happens when legislation is passed that wipes out a long of people from AHCCCHS?) Interestingly enough here in Yavapai County, I think they'll do okay because I think we have a big base of retirees that are pretty well off. I really do. We're not like an Ajo or a South Tucson. There's a lot of places that couldn't make it very well. We're pretty well positioned in the whole Yavapai County in terms of a good portion of our population being retirees, with their old incomes and with their own money to take care. The medical industry could be supporters of economic development...big time. I think developers in the sense of...I think that there are a lot of opportunities for different types of retirement living that maybe we don't have yet.

Q 7: What or who do you see as current or potential barriers to advancing sustainable economic development in connection with a healthy river( for example, laws and regulations, property rights, institutional like ditch companies, water companies, historic uses, etc.), changing cultural values? (If response is that “there are too many,” ask for top 3-5…interviewer’s discretion)Again, I think a lot of it is the political side. We have a lot of people, and this is maybe one of the down sides of being a retirement area, is that you have people who once they are here, they want to close the gate. They don't want a lot of new growth. They like it the way it is now that they're here. I think that sometimes it's difficult with those kinds of folks to get them real involved in wanting to pay for, let's say, new infrastructure or whatever. Again politics to some degree enters into this. In our case in Yavapai County, a lot of it is water law, because we have a Salt River Project issue to deal with.

Q 8: Who do you think might be interested in using the findings of this Verde River Economic Development Study, including the results of interviews such as this one?I suppose anybody that's contemplating moving themselves or their company to Arizona. I guess it could be almost anybody from the medical profession to the business community. We actually in Yavapai County have a pretty broad based higher educational system, too. I think that's another up and coming kind of aspect of our area. Education I think we could look to again more...what would you call them, boutique education centers, boutique colleges, or that kind of thing. I’m talking about education as an industry. Developing more educational opportunities in this area. I wouldn't necessarily be a...as well as medical facilities, I think educational. Like I say, more colleges, more specialty schools, trade schools those kinds of things.

Ideas do you have to make the Verde River a focal point for regional economic development?I still see the Verde Valley, as probably a lot of people who have lived around here do, as a series of communities where there's a Camp Verde culture, there's a Cottonwood culture, there's a Sedona culture, but there's no Verde Valley culture...of the whole area. In other words, you don't have a brand for...you're kind of getting it a little bit, but this is just kind of through the Cottonwood-Camp Verde area. I don't know of a lot of common kind of theme advertising or anything like that. Maybe there is some but the Verde River is, in my opinion, has never been made a focal point for the whole area as one unit. It's always been separate pockets of development.

How long in Yavapai County? 40 yearsInteracts with the river? As a supervisor, I have these decision making powers over everything in the county including the Verde River area. Personally, it's just because I enjoy the atmosphere, the ambience of the whole area. Been on the Verde, but not boat trips. I've heard people say that you can't understand it unless you've been on it. I'd like to take a boat trip. Primarily a political dealing with river.

If you had $5M to spend on behalf of the Verde River...That's almost not enough to do a big thing, but it's enough to do a lot of small things. I think I would work more on the uniting of the area, some sort of signage that would link the whole corridor together. I don't know. I really don't know what I would do with that amount of money. It's an interesting question. Economic development is an interesting thing. I've kind of studies it for a long time and I'm not an expert by any means. I have noticed one thing. When we talk about economic development, we think in terms of corporations, people bringing their companies here. I don't. I think of the people who own the companies. Because what I have seen happen here is it's an individual who comes here for a visit, likes it, turns around and moves his home and his business here. That's how they got Ruger here in Prescott. Ruger's a big company. The owner of that company, Bill Ruger, wanted to be here. He brought a big, big company for us here to Prescott. I think maybe what I would use that money for is trying to expose, not educating, but just exposing people to this area. Perhaps bringing them on a 3-day retreat or something to the area. Spending it that way just letting them see the area. Maybe you would call that an education. I

would call it just and exposure. I think that's what...a lot of people just don't know what this part of Arizona is like until they've been here. Casey interviews Lori Simmons, February 22, 2011, Chase Bank

Q 1: What do you think are the most significant factors influencing the health of the Verde River system?The first thing that came to mind is obviously the amount of water, whether it be snow melt and water flow based on rain. I think that's a huge portion. In the 15 years I've lived here, I've seen the flow decrease significantly. Some of that is because of the drought more than just usage or water being pumped from it. I live very near the river. We use the river. We kayak, we fish, we do a lot of things on the river. We've seen some significant changes to it. Namely, a lot less water. We can't kayak year around like we did when we moved here 15 years ago. I'd like to see us get back to the point where we could. I think another significant factor is just the pumping from the Chino Basin. How much is being pumped and is that being monitored? Do we know? If we're talking about data gaps, do we know the effects of the pumping of the Chino Basin water that's heading towards Prescott? We do not have a well. I have city water, but I have septic. I'm one of the only people down by, close to the river that has a septic. We're the last person on my street to have city water. I do not have a well. I'm not directly taking from it. The city may be, but I'm not directly.

Q2: Do you feel there are things about the Verde River that we need to understand better? If so, what are they?That would be back to #1...the pumping of the Big Chino. How that affects the flow. That's really what I would like to understand better. You know, truthfully, I'm also on a ditch system. We love our irrigation. It's the reason I moved down there. We pay $60 a year and it's all the water I can use to irrigate my plants, my trees, my 1/2 acre. I have a ditch that flows in front of my property and an underground ditch that goes behind it. So we're surrounded by the ditch system. I can only use one of the two ditches, but I know that when you see the flow of the Verde before the ditch system and after the ditch system, it's a trickle after the ditch system. When we kayak, we can always kayak above it. But as soon as the ditch system comes and starts to pull out, very rarely, very few times of the year can you kayak once the ditch system pulls it all out. Then it all goes back in again and then you can kayak again after Cottonwood all the way to Camp Verde. I tend to wonder is there a happy medium where we can limit the amount being pulled out for the ditch system. You'd get a lot of push back if that happened, but it might increase the health and the flow of the Verde River. After the diversions, what's left in the Verde River is almost non-existent. All the people on the ditch system would tell you is their rights supersede that recreational user. But being both, I kind of wonder if there isn't a happy medium we would strike there. Are you interviewing Andy Groseta? He's the manager of the ditch system and his insight would be very interesting.

Q 3: To your knowledge what, if any, economic development activities have recently been, or are currently being, conducted that directly relate to the Verde River? Who is involved in these activities? I am the chairman, the leader of the Quality of Place committee which is part of the Cottonwood Economic Development group that came out of our focus on success study. In that, we truly understand that people like me would not live in Cottonwood if it were not for the Verde River. There are different factors for different people that we understand on the Quality of Place committee that draw people here, what make people move here. That's really the only economic development activity that I am aware of and that I've been involved in. Who's involved in this...right now the mayor, Doug Bartosh, myself, George Gelhart, and we've got some other business owners in Old Town who are going to pick this up, to really start talking about this. I believe the Rec Center is part of Quality of Place, the Verde Valley Medical Center, and the river is truly a center point of that, too. This group is an on-going group. We're just working on this year so I'll see you shortly.

Q 4: What potential economic development opportunities exist which are associated with the Verde River system in the Verde Valley? Absolutely, you mentioned the gentleman who does the kayak or the water-to-wine type of tours. I think of different places, Salt River obviously being a lot bigger, but you don't have people actively bringing fishing and/or tubing and/or canoeing and kayaking regularly through here. Part of it might be because you've got this huge gap here in Cottonwood where we can't do that year round. Where if you didn't have the ditch system...and I'm not a proponent of getting rid of the ditch system because I love what it does for my home, but I think there are places above Tuzigoot and places after the ditch system in Cottonwood where I would just think that there would be people year round who would want to be floating on the Verde River in many different ways. I don't think that's happening now. I would think that there's companies who would come here and it would draw people here a tourists if you have that. I don't know if that's what you're look for in economic development. (We think of what other kinds of businesses we could get here. Maybe kayak testing?) The Verde is a slow water because you're not looking at classified rapids ??? 8:38 in flood stage, but absolutely. (Maybe tech type companies?) Creative individuals might want to be here because of the hiking in Sedona, kayaking here. There's another place I think of, too, Missoula, Montana, has a world-class self-constructed kayaking area where they handmade boulders and dammed up the river so the kayakers could have classified rapids. They didn't have classified rapids. They build them. We went there to see these kayakers and the kayaks are like 4 feet long. They're tiny. I've never seen anything like it. But there's nothing to say that we couldn't create that here. There's 4,000,000 people who come to Sedona every years and we're not capturing any of that because of the Verde River when we could be. We'd have to think outside the box. There's definitely economic development. I just don't know what it is. The lack of access to the river is another thing. It's all private land all along it, so there are no access points. Down my street, there's got to be 5 signs that say no public river access. The people who own that land don't want people walking up there land to get to the Verde River so that's a great point...access points. They're huge. And you may ask for potential problems. That is one of them for sure.

Q 5: In your opinion, what information and facts are there that could be used to promote and advance the connection between the Verde River and potential sustainable economic development in the Verde Valley? I'm not sure, and frankly reading the study information that you gave me ahead of time, that's what I'm going to be most interested to find out. What is the connection? How could be use the Verde River as attractive to potential businesses and/or like you said, people who can work out of their homes? I don't know. I think if we knew, we'd be doing it right now. You're pretty active in trying to attract businesses. I don't think we have the answer. I can't wait to find out what this study comes back with as the answer to #5.

Q 6: Who are important potential supporters in advancing the connection between a healthy Verde River and sustainable economic development?The town of Clarkdale, city of Cottonwood and Camp Verde. We have to really look at this as a regional approach. Maybe even the Regional Economic Council because they have all of those communities together. All of us border the Verde River, all of us have open communications. Yavapai College has really taken a huge interest in the wine industry which through Page Springs has a very direct correlation to. In that case it's more Oak Creek than it is the Verde River...but what has their ecology and biology department done as far as studying the river's ecosystems? You don't hear that as much. Maybe there's an education component to this. In the movie Blood and Wine, you hear Eric Glomski, who is a river ecologist. I didn't know that. So does Eric have some information he can share here. I don't know if he's being interviewed. Good, he is. His answers from that perspective will be terribly intriguing to me. I'd love to hear his whole interview actually. Other important potential supporters...the people that I just named are people or entities, there's no money there. I think we all know that is it the Walton family, it is another large corporation, where can we find funding sources for this because we can have people power

all we want, but until we actually get some money to put behind this to truly start the connection between the Verde River and economic development, it's not going to go anywhere. This study might provide the data.

Q 7: What or who do you see as current or potential barriers to advancing sustainable economic development in connection with a healthy river( for example, laws and regulations, property rights, institutional like ditch companies, water companies, historic uses, etc.), changing cultural values? (If response is that “there are too many,” ask for top 3-5…interviewer’s discretion)Definitely going to be the ditch association, maybe even SRP or APS, I believe it's SRP that has the rights to the water in people's wells. So not only the ditch association, SRP. Off the top of my head, you know Sedona appears very anti-growth, kind of not-in-my-backyard type of thing. So again, I know we're not talking Oak Creek, but still that mindset of anti-growth filters down to us here in Cottonwood. Maybe with a political mind shift and maybe Sedona would be supportive because it's not in their backyard. I don't know. Those are my initial thoughts anyway. I think most people want to see the Verde River thrive. Again, when I still want to water my lawn and my plants and everything else. That's where you'll get push back. The old timers and long-time users of that system. We flood irrigate so I can't tell you the amount of cubic feet that's coming out of the pipe in my backyard. If I couldn't irrigate, I wouldn't have a lawn and I wouldn't live there. I would move. I keep it lush green. I have huge pecan trees, cherry trees, apple trees, huge cottonwood tree, and without that water, I'd have to use city water which would not...there's no way with that amount of land that I could afford to sprinkle that and pay city water rates. I come for the mid-west and that's what drew me to this area. That lush green infection of cottonwoods. There's not many streets that are like that in the high desert. For me it was having that area. Now could I do it with half as much water? My husband would tell you no. He's the one that does the watering. He waters twice a week. Flood irrigates the entire yard twice a week. And our understanding is that whatever water we don't use goes back into the water table and eventually flows into the Verde River. So it's not necessarily that it's wasted, but the fact that it's pulled out and doesn't flow back into the Verde River for a while is a concern. Could we do it with half as much water? Probably. I bet we probably could. Again, are you going to get kick back from all the users. I guess. I think you could. There's no scientific knowledge behind how much water we use. Not for my family. Somebody might have that scientific research but I don't. We just know that when we water twice a week, our grass looks really good. I'm being honest.

Q 8: Who do you think might be interested in using the findings of this Verde River Economic Development Study, including the results of interviews such as this one?Obviously, ditch users. If you can prove to people that you can do what you do with half as much water, I think people would be willing to try it. You think about Phoenix or other cities when they're going through droughts and they ask you to only wash your cars after 7 pm or whatever, when not as much water is evaporating. I think if we had some research to show the ditch users, if you do this half as often, you will still have the same results. I think that group of people would actually be open to hearing that. Not initially, but if they understood the reasoning behind it, I think they would. Then again you always have to walk that fine line. The average American believes that economic development means growth. And also that theory of now that I'm here, shut the flood gates. I don't want anybody else coming. I came because it was a small town and if you develop the economy, that means more people. Well, you and I know that's not always true. Some of it's just wealth development for the people who are here. You'd have to explain that to the general public, to the general ditch users. You want me to use less water so there's more water in the Verde River so more people will come here. I don't want to do that. I don't want anybody else here. So there would be a whole education process on why this important, why this would work. There is a ditch association. Anyone who actively uses the ditch system and pays their dues, is part of the association. Dues of $60 a year for all the water we can use. I happen to have no limitations on when I can water because mine's a buried underground pipe. A lot of the people can only water on Sunday through Wednesday or Thursday through Sunday or something like that. I don't have

that restriction. I can water any day of the week for $60. I have no idea how many are on this ditch system. Our little area alone down Franquero Lane has got to have 30 homes on it. That's just one of the streets that uses that ditch. I can't even imagine how many people do. I don't think this is designed to be a money making company. I think $60 a year pays a few people to go and clean out the ditch. They take it down for 30 days a year to go clean out everything, to make sure there's no roots getting in the way. People come to do maintenance. Other than that, there's definitely no money being made from this. I don't even know if Andy is paid. If he's paid anything, it's got to be minimal because...I definitely don't think it's a money making thing. Would people pay more for that benefit? Yea, I think they would. It's really cheap. It's a bargain. We get a lot for that. Definitely not money making, but could we charge more and do something with that money to do more studies on how to use less water and have the same effects? I think we probably could. I don't think you would charge more based on consumption because I don't know how you'd measure consumption because it literally just bubbles up out of the ground. There would be no way to meter it by any means. It just flows freely. You could be charged based on the amount of land. I pay $60 a year for a half acre so somebody with an acre pays $120 a year. It's a per acre fee so in that respect you kind of know how much water people are using. I will tell you that I think most people are very responsible with it. We tend to water more than most people but that's because my husband is a biologist and he thinks he needs all this water. I don't know. He's a biologist but he's also an ecologist. I would tell you that I've never seen anybody wasting water or what I would see as overwatering. Nobody's ever got water standing. They kind of self-govern. Andy goes around to make sure people aren't using water on days when they're not supposed to. That's mostly so the other users have the flow that they need. It has to do with the flow of the ditch, not the flow of the river. That's his primary responsibility is the flow of the ditch. Making sure that the people who are paying into the ditch system have the water they need.

What ideas do you have to make the river a focal point for regional economic development?Right now it's not. We have a picture of the Verde River in a lot of our marketing materials, but the primary thing is the cottonwood tree. People don't understand that cottonwoods don't grow without the Verde River. I think if we could focus the river instead of the trees, focus more on it, the communities, the residents, and then tourism. How do you get the Chamber of Commerce and all the tourism folks to think about the Verde River and sustainability. We talk about it but a lot of times, it's lip service. It's not at the forefront enough. Education is constantly in the newspapers. It's constantly in front of us because it affects every one of us. So does the Verde River, but we don't keep it in front of the residents here enough. We're not educating the residents. We're not talking about the health and the flow of the Verde River enough. If we talked about it, we'd all have to be more conscientious about how we use water and how we use the ditch system and it's too convenient. It would be uncomfortable to have to change. But if we don't change, it won't be here.

How long in Verde Valley? 16 years in AugustHow do you interact with the river? Obviously because I'm on the ditch system and we use it once a week. My children walk down to a tire swing to swing over it twice a week. We kayak when we can, when the flow is high enough which is usually only spring right now. We kayak up from Tuzigoot and sometimes all the way down to Camp Verde. Sometimes we take out right by our house. My husband drives over it every day to work. I don't know about you, you don't drive over it to get to work, but every time I drive over it, I look over the bridge to see the water. It's just a natural thing. You just look to see how much it's flowing. I do that same thing with Oak Creek when I go through Cornville. You look over to see how much. I'm careful about looking, but it's beautiful to look at it would be horrifying to see it dry up. It gets close in the summer, it really does.

If you had $5M to spend on behalf of the Verde River, how would you spend it?There's got to be a more efficient way to use the water that's in that ditch system. That ditch system was built I think more than 80 years ago. I can't believe that there isn't more efficient ways to do that now. If

they can build more efficient ways, more water would stay in the Verde and it would be healthier and more people would tend to use it. i would say, if you had $3M, a million of it has to be on education of the residents, the users. Some of that truthfully is going to have to be legal fees to do work with SRP and the people who believe that they have the rights. And I say believe because I'm still not convinced that it's all SRP's. Then the left over $3M to develop a more efficient ditch system that would pull a lot less. I've focused a lot on the ditch system here because that's my personal knowledge. That's how it affects me. The lagoons at Dead Horse were a really nice addition for the locals and a little bit tourists. That's a diversion of the Verde River, but that helps make people more aware. The ponds are stocked and people fish there. They enjoy quality time so that contributes to quality of life. They probably don't know where that water is coming from. Maybe education again might be more than a million dollars of that, but I think that if you could figure out how to divert that water more efficiently, the river would be healthier. We do a little bit of the education in our schools. There's a couple grants where in the 7th grade they study the river, they do some water testing. The kids have made recommendation from there to have low water flow toilets and in drinking fountains at the schools. They measured the impact that the ???26:59 had. Quite an impact. But it's such a small piece. All the residents need to be doing that.

Anything concern you about this study?Not at all. I think it's exciting and I can't wait to see the results. I hope they're published. Again, it's part of the education piece so that the public can understand what's going on with some of the efforts. If each of them does their little piece, it could be better for all of us. Interviewee: Ray Selna (rselnacommspeed.net; 928-301-2024), okay to record, doesn't need to be anonymous, approval not necessaryInterviewer: Doug Von GausigDate: February 17, 2001

Q1. In the past, we had more growth in the region by Paulden and Chino and there was more of a fear from draining the river from development. Of course, the fear hasn't occurred and the growth hasn't occurred but I would think that probably the biggest fear we would have is pollution of the Verde River and the other fear I would have is if somehow the Verde Valley would lose all of its water rights to the Verde River through some manner that.... [ordering lunch with food server] I guess the issue that I don't know the answer to is how adverse water rights will affect the Verde River and how we protect our water rights along the Verde River so that we get beneficial use of whatever we are legally entitled to. [pollution sources?] Pollution could come in all kinds of manners from folks camping improperly, from sewer systems improperly dumping in, from people putting septic systems into the water. You know, it could come from a lot of sources. It could come from old mining sources for that matter. But, I think that right now we're in pretty good shape but again, not being as involved as you guys, I probably don't have the right answers. [there are no right answers; want public impression of what's going on]

Q2. I guess to truly understand why and why the river flows from is a very complicated subject. You know, what are all the sources to the river? What are the impact to those sources if certain events would occur? And, you know, that's a complicated question -- very complicated, and I don't know if anyone can truthfully answer how the river functions in total and how much we're relying on new water sources; how much comes from underground streams; that's really a loaded question - a big question. [groundwater and the Verde River connection] My opinion is that if you're drawing water within a couple hundred feet of the surface, the odds are it's probably surface water. If you're down 800', you're probably in the ground water. I think that if you have a well that is 75' from the river and it's gushing full of water, I think you probably infringe on the surface rights. [legal status and adjudication prospect] I keep wondering when they're finally going to start actually making rulings so we can actually know where we stand and, as a real estate broker, when we talk about water rights, we have to talk so...without any definitive statements, because of the fact that no one knows what is going to happen. So, you know, are your rights protected; do you have true rights; are they going to be taken away from you; how do the Native American claims

affect us? I think a lot of people hope that there is no solution so we can keep on going the way we are going. But, eventually the door is going to be shut and someone is going to win and someone is going to lose. It's just a matter of time before we figure that out. But, I'm surprised that we haven't any more progress, I really am; and that you'd like to have more progress because of the fact that peoples' lives will be...maybe a few more adversely affected by the claims of the larger water users. So, I don't now. [USGS preliminary subflow map; no surprises; adjudication of rights is not finished] One of the biggest factors is ...let's just say that in Camp Verde, for example, that the Native Americans get a larger land boost and more goes into reservation status, I don't think the average person realizes the effect of the water right claims -- that they will increase amongst the Native Americans in what may have an adverse effect on Clarkdale, Cottonwood and Camp Verde and I think the public needs to know before trades are made. They really not only need to know the economic impacts but also the water right impacts. If a trade is meant to be, it's meant to be. Then that's the way it's supposed to be. But, the water rights...a lot of people don't understand the impact that could potentially happen like down on that property at Camp Verde if those trades go through.

Q3. I would say that the biggest economic factor that is being tied to the Verde River is either through tourism or through farming. We really don't have an industry that uses the water. I do see more wine growers appearing in the area that may or may not have water rights to the river; maybe going after well rights. But, development also, of course, will impact the river in some respects and open space, lack of open space, will probably adversely affect the Verde Valley. So, direct development, more farming, more tourism-related and quality of life related areas. I don't see industrial use of the water. [quality of life play important role] In Verde Valley, it does. If you want, and this has nothing to do with what we're talking about today, but I heard about a community in northern California...the average home price is over $2m and it's all a very...in northern California it's very expensive, but their quality of life issues only allow a single family residential home in the entire community -- no condos, no mobiles, no apartments. And so that's a pretty extreme way of looking at quality of life and property values in this. But, around here, what do people come to the Verde Valley for? They come to the Verde Valley for a good quiet lifestyle, open space, mountains, rivers, you know, a low profile life is, I think, what people are hoping for. But with good health care and reasonable shopping. I think it all plays part of the community, so I guess I don't think a Clarkdale should be a Cornville, for example. I think Cornville is too rural because we do need some economic base. But, I think people move here for the Mayberry RFD vs. the anticipation of even being in Flagstaff. [role of Verde in that] It's just the overall setting of the community; it's a focus point; it's a point that, you know, you see more and more people down in Cottonwood along the park sites and more and more people jogging along the river. You see more ball parks down there. Without the river, we wouldn't have irrigation rights to be able to do the ball parks. It is...it's just kind of a quality of life vs., and I'm not knocking Cordes Junction, but it is a community with similar geographics as we are with elevation wise, upper desert but they don't have an Oak Creek and they don't have a Verde River. Nothing against Cordes but it lacks that amenity. [property values compared to Verde Valley] I think even here in boom times we would probably be at 4-1 -- $80,000 for a lot in Verde Village; $20,000 for a lot in Cordes Junction. [attibutable to?] Lifestyle; hospitals; views. You have to realize that years ago the Sedona realtors wanted to change the name of the association to the Verde Valley Association of Realtors and the biggest ones that objected to that were the Cottonwood brokers because we didn't know how important the name Sedona was from a lifestyle standpoint. Sedona has their amentities. Camp Verde...so I think we look at the entire region whether we look from Sedona to Cottonwood to Jerome to Camp Verde, if we look at all the natural amenities that we have and what we have to offer people. When we talk about the river and Oak Creek, it's just part of the community. If we pulled that out, we would have the Sedona red rocks but Cottonwood would be sort of lacking without a river and Clarkdale than Sedona because they have the rocks and so, I just think it's a very beautiful region. That's how I can put it. I mean, you know, as a real estate salesperson in a very good market, you don't have to say a word. Just look around. Let the weather sell the property; let the surroundings sell the property. And, as for where you live on that viewshed there, that's for the salesman to keep his mouth

shut. [expand discussion] It's interesting, pretty flood plain. The river has a lot of value; a lot of value. The flood plain comes along back in the 70s, everybody was afraid of the river, you know, you can't build on the river; you're going to be in the flood plain. We saw values diminish but all of a sudden people felt comfortable with the building standards along the river and now we sell properties like in Galveston Island where they are elevated like bridges. And so, the river again has become very important. Irrigated land is very important and there are certain people that will pay a real premium for the irrigated land that basically don't want to live in the foothills, the viewshed, and there is people who want to live in the foothills and pay a premium price and don't want to live near the irrigated land because they don't want the work of the land. But, it appeals to both people so the river basically...there is a lot of people today that want to have, especially with economic times being what they are, we see more and more people today that want to go to an irrigated piece of property; they want to actually put it to beneficial use; they want to actually grow crops, be productive and actually go back to farming and we're seeing it more and more in people. I have a buyer right now that just happened a few days ago, it's not my buyer, it's one of my agent's buyers, you're going to like this one. He did an aerial of the Verde and he said, "Well, what is all this green grass about?" And so, my agent said, what do you mean. Well, this is supposed to be farmland not just growing grass. But of course, in the Verde Valley, for years, the people that wanted the land for the beauty of it simply had the beautiful green pastures, had a horse or two out there or a cow, but this guy really felt that it was kind of a waste of resource that you're just putting alfalfa out there and you're not making it productive. And, we have never been told ??? 15:02 because people wanted the greenery so they'd buy irrigated land for a green pasture and have a horse and ...but this guy says if he buys a piece, the alfalfa is coming up and crops are going to go in and he is from Seattle, Washington and they're not lacking any water up there. So, there's an interesting outlook. Most buyers want to have that beautiful green pasture with a nice home near the river and really and truthfully, the ideal property is if you have the river, a nice pasture, a higher elevation to build your home so you can look down at the river. That's the ideal property so I look at a property with multi-facets -- the viewshed of the river. And sometimes it's not possible because of the trees, etc. But if you asked what my 'model' property would be, a higher viewshed of the river, a nice passage for the river. That would be your model property and that would be a very valuable piece of real estate today vs. .... I can tell you that looking at the field notes of the Verde Valley from the 20s, where geologists went up into the foothills and said what's this land ever going to be good for - you can't mine. You maybe could put a few cows up there but you can't farm because there is no water. Where the value in the 20s or 10s was along the river where the land could actually produce something. In a way, we have kind of reverted back to that because there is a lot of demand for foothills land for viewshed. The economy is bad; people are not buying more and more foreclosed properties, or distressed properties, but they are still willing to pay a premium for land that can produce crops. And, it's just kind of like we've reversed. As a real estate broker, I deal more now with the wine growers essentially wanting to grow crops than I do with anyone who wants to build a house. We actually have some folks looking in Clarkdale right now, or we're showing them Clarkdale, and because I don't understand the soils and the slopes and the sun, you know, there's a lot more to growing grapes than people realize. [Doug talking about other winegrowers] It's amazing. I don't know if this is true or not, but we've heard a number and Mike Mongini and I were talking about this, we don't know if it's true or not. We heard a number that Verde Valley wine economy and its sales associations and employees is already a $35m business. Now, how many people would think that a few wineries and a few grape vines, compared to a Sonoma or Napa or even up in Oregon and Washington. It's a phenomenal business model but who would ever have thought that may come. And, really and truthfully from a livestock perspective, I would personally rather have...I'd love to see grapes growing around my house. I know that's kind of an elitist attitude, but to me, to have an industry that can produce jobs, grow grapes, export, bring people in for local wine tastings...I mean and they say that the grapes that are produced in the Verde Valley make phenomenal wine. I just kind of, I'm really excited about that industry. So, it's for real and it's here. That little vineyard up in Jerome on the hill -- that's a $100 bottle stuff I believe. [just seeing the beginning of the industry; everyone can grow right now] You know, one question I was asking, and I'm going back to water as I can of went around this..., again, I think a lot of

people will think that farmers waste a lot of water. I think when you look at what water is used for the production of grapes vs. a subdivision where people are flushing toilets and wasting water, I think it's remarkable how much more efficient farming is than people believe than we waste water in our everyday life letting the water run while we brush our teeth. So, I think that water consumption...the first thing I hear is well they use too much water. Well, I go, if you do a water study I think you'll find that if we put cotton in then may be we do use a lot of water. But doing grapes with a drip system, I don't think that you are going to find that. The other thing about grapes is Mike [Mongini] was thinking about growing grapes on his property in Cottonwood, of course they have a great ditch rights, etc. but he found out, he told me, that more or less when you're irrigating grapes, you want to do them on a drip system; you don't want to flood it because you want the roots to go down straight down. So, it's interesting how we may become an agricultural community and recently we had a guy who wants to lease an acre or two to grow crops for a community garden -- not a community garden but more and more selling crops in Clarkdale fruit stand or farmer's markets. I find a lot of people willing to pay more money for that kind of ...for those vegetables because they're growing them organically vs. buying pesticides and stuff in town. So, I do see maybe we're reverting somewhat to, not reverting to, but maybe becoming a mini-Napa Valley. I would love to see it happen but whether it's ever going to happen I don't know. But, you own an existing home, I think it's only going to help your value because of the ambience of the, I'm going to call it, the grapes. I know I'm wasting too much time.

Q4. I really don't see what I would call an actual water use coming off the river towards economic development other than farming or the legal rights that are associated with it. You know, of course, economic development could include quasi resort properties that are taking advantage of the area and that would probably be the number one economic development is a tourism based industry that we have the surroundings for. I think that, if we've done a poor job, not in Sedona but more in the Verde, is potentially creating that niche property. You know, I'm going to pick on my partner potentially on her family farm. They have a little winery going and bungalows and the greenery there. They have two roads. They've got 89A and Highway 260. What better location for a little resort that is taking advantage of the greenery, wine tasting, wine production... Of course, the issue is spending my partner's money. I can understand that. But, talking with him -- what a property to do that, but, of course, the quality of his mother living there and his family, they're looking at that also. But, along the Verde, there was even thoughts, even in Old Town Clarkdale developing some kind of a...not on the river, but one of these niche little properties that people enjoy going to and kind of taking advantage of it in a way. It's Rennie Radaccio. Niche properties...he's attracting more of an eco-customer, beautiful setting. Can you imagine what it would be like if it was on a river? I mean, he does well being where he's at. Word of mouth, it's a...if that property was located along the creek or river, that's such more phenomenal. [Selna's property] Again, now that we have water and sewer, it makes it better. We didn't have water and sewer before. Now we have it because the church and we all participated as good neighbors in that project. But, the bottom line, though is that Tuzigoot, that whole side of the river though and that area ..we have been approached by the state in recent years about extending the greenbelt further up and we've been very willing to talk to them about that. But right now the funding at the state level is pretty brutal. Even at low dollar per acre values, the money in this state has to go marked toward other things other than buying big lands...

Q5. Previously answered. [personal discussion unrelated to the interview]

Q6. Just our community, our whole entire community. We're going to have our differences as to what we think is right or wrong, but you know, the whole community is involved with the ownership with what I call...not really ownership of the river, but ownership of the quality of life in the area. That's the way I look at it. It's a community thing and I think that if you ask anyone around the Verde Valley...I hope I'm not wrong...do you want the river to dry up and blow away? That's a no brainer. Local government is important. Civic clubs. Special organizations. Chambers of Commerce. We're all kind of

interconnected. I mean, it's like...I know as a service club, we're not as big as we used to be in the old days. I know in the old days Kiwanis and the Rotary and Lions had bigger attendance. They're still great organizations, but to people with busy lives, a lot of the social clubs...the Elks, the Lions, the Moose...it didn't seem like the families are as involved as during my father's era. They still contribute a lot to these communities. They're having problems including younger people. Husband and wife are both working, children are in school, they're exhausted when they come home. It's challenging, especially in these economic times we have today. It's very challenging and today of course, if you're employed by a governmental entity, you're probably a lot better off than if you're employed by the private sector for the time being. But if you saw what's going on over there in Wisconsin. They're rioting based upon changes that they may be going through in Wisconsin. I think that we all in society going to have to give up a little bit to make ti work. I think that's where we're at. Dad's a little more pessimistic than I am. He thinks that if we can ever catch up on the slope or are we already over the hill. (discussion of a changing economy...A lot of the old timers I talk to about American in general, they go back to history and they say Spain was in the power, France was willing to front them money, France then comes into power. England was loaning them money. England becomes the emminent power. The United States loaned them money. And now we have Japan and China. Well that's funny. Now will we stay the emminent power forever. History probably says we won't. And then there's also the Brit companies as well as Indian, China, and Russia. Russia's making a come back now. It's interesting how unless we change our ways, and unless we realize that we aren't picking on me, I may not be able to ?? 35:14. That's simply the way it may be at my age. I think we're all going to have to sacrifice and I think that it's going to have to be fairly sacrified from the stand point of you're a widow or widower making at $400-500 a month, that's what your whole income is, then you could be affected by a decision to ?? 35:19 that's just the way that's it's going to have to be. I've never been a big one on means testing, but I mean, we're there whether we like it or not. Not that's useful as a mayor. Any ?? 35:56 in Cottonwood or Camp Verde or Sedona, the people who have so many hours to volunteer, it's increasing every year. It's not like it's decreasing. If we lost volunteers in this country, I don't know where we would be. Volunteers in hospitals, cancer society, march of dimes, working with ?? 36:31 America is a generous country supporting great people. We dedicate ourselves to being great people. We're a great giving nation, filled with great people. It's just that I think that we got a little spoiled.

Q 7 BarriersMany factors I guess. Some properties would be very ideal of economic development, but they're owned by families that don't want to see it. It would have an adverse effect on their quality of lifestyle. The whole Bridgeport area and most of the property is owned by two or three families in big chunks. And they frankly enjoy all their open space and they're entitled. They own the property. In that area, it may be that the folks that own it don't want it to happen, because it's going to affect their quality of lifestyle. In other areas, the lack of good of access to the properties and lack of sewer. You have to have sewer around the river. You can't have development without the way to dispose of the waste. The sewer and use factor may stop the development of the river. You can't put a motel near the river and have that sewage going into the river. I'd say the landowners. And the lack of infrastructure. Right now, unfortunately, a lack of financing, in the overall, a lack of financing. There's no commercial money out there to build anything. The one you would want to interview would be Andy Groseta. I'd love to hear his interview. He has more of a cattleman's perspective. Mostly about the Mongini family, the Groseta family, and all the others along that ditch. They've raised that whole area and they've kept the cost down to their members through a lot of volunteerism and a lot of working together. You know what they charge per acre to pull it out of that river. At least the others would have a lot more paid staff. It's probably the absolute the most ???? 39:57 water in the state of Arizona. There's bound to be...they sometimes when you look at the water, you saw the Verde River. I'm not advocating this for we own a lot of ditch rights over 6 ??? 40.12, but I think that folks getting to take water need to realize the importance of using it in a prudent manner. I mean, this lot sitting out in Clarkdale, I'm not paying a whole lot for pumping my water, and I'm getting plenty of it ???? I think that people when cautioned more, it's like

gasoline. 50 a gallon or 21 cents a gallon.???? I may not be going to the post office. (discussion of water rates in Clarkdale) I'm with you then. I've given them a lot of money, but they've saved me a lot of money, too. I mean, you get that way and if the toilet's leaking, you get it fixed, because it's going to cost you. Water is a very precious commodity. I don't care where you live. The thing about water is that in northern Arizona, we see it's a big deal to run a pipeline 500 ft. to a water source. Where in the Great Lakes, they have more water than we'll ever have, and they run water lines hundreds of miles from the lake where they take some water out. I probably saw in the Verde Valley Mr. Bullard ran that water out for Steve Coury into Camp Verde. These guys in the northwest say that's nothing. ??? 42:20 and shut down the water company. You know there wasn't a lot of exploration for water. It was more using the same source. From Utah, Mike and I had a well from Utah that produced 8 gallons a minute. We were very disappointed. All the people in Utah said you've hit a gusher, 8 gallons a minute? Oh my goodness, that's such a great well. ??? 42:46 We thought it was a bad well. Up there the water is much more precious and there water laws in Utah are way more advanced than ours. You don't even drill a well there if you have water rights. You just can't drill. Those water rights are like gold. Now it ends up more strenuous. In the old days, we could move water from Cottonwood to Clarkdale substantial water rights. Today if you're moving water out of the basin you think you're in, you'll have protests like crazy. It's way more advanced and way more regulated than what we are. Water up there, you buy a piece of land and you don't have the water right, and you're going to graze cattle on there. It's a very unique appropriations but it's tough to deal with. (are regulations and economic development at cross purposes there?) You've got to realize what you're buying before you buy it and you realize that if you're going through obstacles and you're going to accomplish something, you better do your homework. If you have a lot that you're going to put down on this property, you have to make sure you have the right to own this property and the right also to own the water rights. And that could even use less than the Verde River...if you own the property, the next thing you know the way they could be extracing minerals from your property or gravel. We found out that the laws used in Utah were that you get morel rights in some areas and and less rights in other areas. It's something of a balancing act. We had a property in this one area with a view of the beautiful red rocks, we started extracting the material and were told we can't do that. ??? 44:46 So, we didn't know that and we kept negotiating with him and he ended up buying the property, but still he had rights that we didn't know that he had. It's kind of like what we have today up here in Jerome. We have a household and PD wants to come in and go down, they may have the surface rights. They have a lot of rights that they have. ??? rights to your house and they can be doing their thing. It happens up there. It's called Rancho Black Acres. I remember the community name. (discussion not pertaining to questions)... We don't know what land is worth any more, because unless you have a buyer, which is rare for vacant land. Steve Coury, from Cottonwood, buy a key corner. He sold a piece of land to the Big 5 Sporting Goods company probably for a price of 60% of what it was bought a few years ago. He ??? 47:46. the rules have really changed. Now when’s it going to come back? I don’t know. (Long discussion about national property values, saying that small towns have lost more value than large cities).

I think we have to retool our thinking – what is our community? How do we define our community? We need folks to come up to Jerome to buy their goods – Senior citizens are not the market. They already have all the stuff they don’t need.

Question 8: Who would like to hear the results of the study?The realtors, contractor’s association, municipalities, county. A lot of people would be interested in it.

Lived in VV all his life – his family came out in early 1900’s.

Unrelated discussion about his family, and other old-time families, especially Doctor Ray Pecharich, who was a Mayor of Clarkdale – he was always apolitical in his decisions. We need that more.

D: What would you do with $10 million to better the Verde River?

I guess it would depend on what I felt was needed in terms of preserving the water flow, or if I thought it was more important to create a area where people could come and enjoy the river. If I were going to spend $10 million, I’d have to be sure the money would really go to the benefit ofg the river and not pollute it –

I’d probably want to get together a group of very diverse people and get their opinions, some from left, right, center – ask the folks in the development community, the far left, the far right – ask them what to do, I don’t know.

D; How do you interact with the river these days?

R: I walk along it, down near Tuzigoot. We have a ranch near Camp Verde. The main interaction there is to make sure the cows don’t get in the river. Forest Service won’t allow the cows in the river.

D: Anything that concerns you about this study?

R: No, information is information.

I’d love to hear the results of the study, especially since you’re interviewing a wide sample of people. It will be interesting to hear Dan Mabery, Andy Groseta and Glenn Straub’s thoughts, since they’re such a diverse bunch.Doug interviews Brenda Smith, by phone, February 28, 2011, US Fish and Wildlife ranger for this district, doesn't mind if recorded, anonymous depending on what is said, yes on approval

Q 1: What do you think are the most significant factors influencing the health of the Verde River system?The water flow and use of water in that area. The non-native fish and other non-native species that have been introduced into the river. One thing that we need to consider in the future is, actually now and into the future, really is what the effects of climate variabilities are going to be. We've seen some of those effects. They're likely to continue and probably to intensify over time. I think that there's a...and then, of course, there's the general development as it occurs in the watershed. Hard surfacing, you know that's associated with various industrial units involved with development that's occurred in that area. The worst invasives are the non-native sport fish, ??? 4:15, crayfish are probably the ones that are having the most impact on some of the native aquatic species. I'm not trying to value that is to say that all non-native sport fish are bad. I think that it's just something that is affecting the environment and we need to figure out what it is that we're going to be managing for in some parts of that river and how we're going to manage those species, in light of what is currently inhabiting the river. Non-native plants are certainly having an impact on the watershed as well and the ability for some of those native vegetation to occur in some areas. I think that probably a bigger, more immediate problem is what is actually inhabiting the aquatic environment. Poisoning the entire river and starting over is not realistic.

Q2: Do you feel there are things about the Verde River that we need to understand better? If so, what are they?I think certainly the regimens and what we can do about how to manage that river, water uses, diversions, ground water pumping. It's going to continue. It's obvious we have developments all along that river. We have a lot of demand for water that's coming from the Verde or from the aquifers that feed into the Verde and that demand isn't going to go away. So how are we going to manage our water use in the future as well as future water needs that are increasing in that area and still be able to maintain at least a somewhat natural flow regimen ??? 6:54 in the river.

Q 3: To your knowledge what, if any, economic development activities have recently been, or are currently being, conducted that directly relate to the Verde River? Who is involved in these activities?

I'm not really sure what you're specifically referring to there. I don't live in the Verde Valley. I live in Prescott. Certainly the housing boom, the crash that has affected the housing boom. It's slowed down a lot of the subdivisions that were underway or were being planned, that were pretty more of a demand on the water resources in that area. As far as other sorts of economic development, I think there are some positive ones out there as well. Seems like tourism and recreation that depend kind of a healthy river system for visitor bird watching or white water rafting or to support general hiking and meditation in that area, the national monuments that are down behind there. The Verde River Railway for example, another one that's government run private enterprise. I haven't been keeping up with what Clarkdale sustainability project is involving and how that's progressing. I think there's some potential there to...what you intent is anyway...to develop some more economic opportunities with that area without harming basically the river and its resources.

Q 4: What potential economic development opportunities exist which are associated with the Verde River system in the Verde Valley? (answered above??)

Q 5: In your opinion, what information and facts are there that could be used to promote and advance the connection between the Verde River and potential sustainable economic development in the Verde Valley? I think more of just education. Outreach in particularly, in the schools. I know that there are programs that are taking place in the schools in both the Verde Valley and the tri-cities area. More work, more emphasis there is important. And more outreach towards some of the state legislators if that would do any good and the new legislators that are in office now and probably, if nothing else but to inform them of what fact and what may be fiction regarding the river and uses of the river. I can't say, but with a little bit more thought that I could come up with some more hot suggestions for you. Those are what have come to mind. There's a lot going on. One of the things going on right now is the Verde Birding Festival. I'm sure that there's a lot more opportunities for those sorts of economic uses that can also serve not only the Verde Valley communities but also serve to educate people to make them more aware of the river, to make them value the river more. Some of the fishing opportunities. When I worked in Yuma, there was a big emphasis actually up on Lake Havasu to develop fishing opportunities, of course for non-native sport fish, to develop habitat within the lake, that people have better success when they're fishing, to develop areas physically for fishing and trying to get kids out there so that they would have that experience and learn how to fish and with success and carry that into their adulthood so they would value those systems as well. Some of the other ideas are some of the wineries and at this point, raft tours and wine tasting thing. And with that, that seems to be an up and coming industry in that area. There might be more opportunities to tie that in the ports of the Verde River and that sort of area along with appreciation of having a new economic opportunity in that area. I'm sure there's more...I would say that there probably is some good ideas about what else could be done. I don't know other than ??? 13:21 but it takes a lot of great people with a business sense that would probably have or probably find some other ways to not use the river, but to develop some opportunities on the river that are in harmony with what some of its natural functions are. (Do you think there are myths about the river that need to be dispelled?) I think some of the things that we as a society need to be working on would just be how we use water in this state and how our water laws are written. I think that we are on a path that's, and don't quote me on this please, I think we are on a path that's really unsustainable in the long run. I don't know how we're going to be able to sustain these communities without actually some pretty detrimental effects to not just the Verde but all of our surface waters that we have left here. I hate to see that happen. To that, I don't have a good sense other than a place to begin would be a lot more effort and better use of our water resources, better conservation of our waters or water resources and looking at some more innovative ways of developing communities' use of effluent or use of rainwater harvesting in water systems and things like that. (Ground water consumption related to the health of the river?) Yes.

Q 6: Who are important potential supporters in advancing the connection between a healthy Verde River and sustainable economic development?I think one of the things like you're trying to do in Clarkdale are a direction that more communities need to go and need to quit fighting with one another and looking at how we can attract industries that are a better fit with what resources we have in the area and what resources we think we're going to have and manage the use of for the future. I have to say the attitudes that the people have in the Verde Valley are more supportive than of that certain outlook in general than some of those in decision-making positions on the other side of the mountain. I think we're coming around. I think some of these studies like the Bureau of Rec study is helping at least to bring people to the table to talk about what are we going to do in the future. What the outcome of that may be I don't know, but at least we're starting to talk about hopefully some common goals that are a little bit more realistic and what may be real in the future.

Q 7: What or who do you see as current or potential barriers to advancing sustainable economic development in connection with a healthy river( for example, laws and regulations, property rights, institutional like ditch companies, water companies, historic uses, etc.), changing cultural values? (If response is that “there are too many,” ask for top 3-5…interviewer’s discretion)Probably just the water laws of Arizona are one of the bigger barriers. The problem with the water laws is that disconnection between groundwater and surface water within our laws that allows basically unlimited drilling of groundwater to occur. I think our surface water useage for agricultural uses in the Verde Valley could be much better. I haven't worked with those ditch companies, and there are so many looking at ways or better ways of doing business with more sustainable sorts of systems. They're expensive, so economics is certainly enters into the issue to be part of that and some of the decisions and the ability to make change and how those diversions can be more efficiently operated. But is generally the attitude that I have this water right and I'm going to use it to death. I can't remember which part of that statute is but basically if you don't use it, you lose it, water right is taken away. Better management of our water resources. (Walton Foundation is working with Nature Conservancy to make ditches more efficient) Pumping water into ditches where it's needed would be a big improvement.

Q8 Who do you think might be interested in using the findings of this Verde River Economic Development Study, including the results of interviews such as this one?I think pretty much anybody with any kind of interest or investment in the Verde River. The communities, the government, legislators, companies like SRP, irrigation companies. Pretty much anybody, this would be very helpful information.

Live in Arizona since 1981, left for 6 years to live in Texas and Utah, and came back in 1992 and lived in several different places since then.Interacts with Verde River, tries to travel there, but doesn't get down to the group meetings as often as I'd like to; try to keep involved with what the different groups are doing, the studies the USGS are doing, those that Nature Conservancy is involved in, work that you're doing by email, by telephone and then opportunities where I can get more involved with the Verde River Basin Partnership, the Watershed Association, conversations with SRP, their habitat conservation plan and their land management in the Verde Valley, that's probably more of the main Arizona Game and Fishes work in fish management activities...alll professional and technical; come down for pleasure once in awhile

If you had $5M for the Verde River to spend on behalf of the river?That's a similar question that they talked about last week. One of those that I thought was excellent was to work with the ditch companies to get some better diversions to keep more of that flow in the river and to time the flow better. It needs to meet the agricultural needs but also there are needs for fish and aquatic habitats and riparian habitats all on the river. I think a dream would be to build a fish barrier somewhere there north of Clarkdale and restore that river for native species and that would probably take several million dollars right there. That idea that came out of that meeting last week which I thought was a great

idea would be to develop an education center in the Verde Valley and maybe put another one in Prescott area with emphasis on education about the Verde River, maybe with a source of location to lead hikes or to lead school groups or that kind of thing so that people become much more aware of the river and how it affects them and their environment and their daily lives as well. Tapco is one of the places that been discussed for a fish barrier. There's no decision that's been done. There was a call for that in a consultation that was done by Fish and Game a number of years ago. There needs to be an overall comprehensive plan done for the Verde River and for fish management of the Verde River before identifying a location for what may be actually...see the goal from an engineering stand as well as what really makes sense from a biological stand point and for recreational fisheries as well. We know how to do it right now by sterilizing that upper Verde and reintroducing natives. Along with that would also need to be more development of sport fishing from ??? 26:51 farther down to offset the loss of the opportunities in that area. Native sport fish are ???? 27:06. What they call Verde trout.

Who else do you think we should be interviewing?Hit the players, people who are involved in groups like ??? 27:34, Bureau of Reclamation, the agencies, involve USGS, county supervisors, representatives, Arizona Game and Fish department, NRCS ??, RCV??

Anything about this study that concerns you?No, get that information together and get it out there. I think the important thing is for you to present it in a neutral non-partisan fashion that are, at least in general, are accepted better in that kind of way because it doesn't look like you're leaning one direction or another. I was really pleased to see the Walton Family Foundation interested in the Verde River and funding some activities that hopefully will be able to translate to better action on the ground. One other wild card in terms of the Verde and the future is what will happen when a ??? 30:26 works its way down your southwestern river systems. I don't know what to expect. It's out there and will eventually get there. What sort of impact it will have on the Verde, I don't know. It's hanging on, if it's too cold. I don't think we know enough about that ?? 30:44 Now down lower on, yea certainly what it could happen which is willow flycatcher habitat farther downstream. I guess we'll have to make sure that we're staying on top of that and that we have some sort of plan for restoration of those habitats and funding for those restoration activities as we start really impacting not just flycatchers habitats but habitats for a lot of other migratory birds as well. Doug interviewing Glen and Phyllis Straub, their house, Feb. 10, 2011, 634-5092, ??? :28 , agreed to having recorded, wants to be anonymous

Q 1: What do you think are the most significant factors influencing the health of the Verde River system?Glen: The drought. Pollution, water pollution from all the properties that were built along the river, all the septic systems. I know that affected Oak Creek a lot. Seems like it has to have affected the Verde River some. The drought, you see the river this wide in places. I don't know that much about the river. It comes underground way, way up there and comes out, right? Way up by the headwaters. Does it come from somewhere underground? The most significant without knowing anything about what I'm talking about is the drought. There's no snow melt compared to what there used to be, no run off compared to what there used to be. If we had rainfall like we did the first 25 years I lived here, we may not be talking about the health of the Verde River so much. We wouldn't be worried about running out of water, I don't think. The health of the river in terms of pollution, but not the amount of flow. The drought has to have caused a reduction, I think.Phyllis: That's pretty much what it is. Glen: And I don't know where the SRP stands. The amount of water that is taken for irrigation, but I don't know how much that is and ...it seem like .lose to the river, that groundwater is river water. I guess there's a lot of wells along the Verde River for all those lots.

Q2: Do you feel there are things about the Verde River that we need to understand better? If so, what are they?G: I don't know the answer to that. I don't know enough about it to probably to answer that.

Q 3: To your knowledge what, if any, economic development activities have recently been, or are currently being, conducted that directly relate to the Verde River? Who is involved in these activities? G: That's a question of facts not an opinion. I don't know what they are. Dead Horse State Park wouldn't be there if it weren't for the river. All the...if they're still doing materials removal, sand and gravel...are the Yavapai Apaches doing that? I think that requires, doesn't require, but I think they're doing it along the river. They do take materials from other places, but that's the main place they do it. Especially the Indians, I'm sure they're doing it. Superior, no Heath, you ??? over by ??? 5:33. We wouldn't have nearly as much materials related. I don't know how much they're doing but I know it's been a point of contention. I don't know other economic activities related directly to the river. We don't have rafting trips that I know of, do we? That Dan's place (Blazin' M) doesn't depend on the fact that it's on the river. It could be anywhere. Well, it couldn't be on Coke Ranch Road in Cornville, but it could be out on Goddard Road. You know what I'm saying. If Chuck had owned that many acres out there in the county, it's a chuck wagon thing, it's the show. It's not river based. You cross the river, but once you cross the river, people sitting there and walking around don't know they're close to the river. What did Dan think? (said river supplies ambiance). They had a similar thing out there across from the casino before the Yavapai Apaches bought the thing on the corner there. They kind of tried to do sort of that and it would have worked if they hadn't been so stupid and incompetent, it would have worked. This was way before the...this was 15 years ago...anyway, it could have been there. Just one quick thing, but my mind is gone, Rich ?? 8:30 the appraiser in Prescott call me and asked me to get him some data. Four days later he called me...and I was going to do it like an hour later. It just slipped my mind. Without the river, I was thinking just before you came, what are the other towns that have any kind of economic base or tourist base. If you don't have a river, you better have a railroad running through. Not a river, but water front property. I'm thinking about places like Ajo and Gila Bend. You better have an interstate highway or a river or a railroad or you're going to be ??? 9:09 with 80 people. (Doug talk of river value historically) You do have other amenities like Sedona has their views. You don't hear too many people talk about Sedona without Oak Creek Canyon.

Q 4: What potential economic development opportunities exist which are associated with the Verde River system in the Verde Valley? They're never going to do this in a million years and they shouldn't, but I just noticed how much economic activity began to occur on the Tempe Lake. If you dammed up the river, you could have a bunch of economic activity. Not that they would or should. That's a potential though if somebody someday said, "Let's put a dam and have a big lake." But they're not going to do it. It's something that they could do. I don't know anything about Tempe Lake other than I know it's there and that they do a lot of stuff on it. There has to be other places where there are smaller lakes that have been formed. Not like a Lake Powell or Lake Mead or something. The Verde River isn't that big, not very big. Some places it's not very deep. I don't know. You can't do the things on a little river like you can on a 500 or 1,000 acre lake. Look at all those people who used to go to Peck's Lake...the picnicking, the golf course around it, people recreating whether they hiked or whatever because it was a lake and had legal access on most of it, at least on all that one side. So you drive down, or you walk out, I'm trying to think of legal access to the Verde River. That’s the other thing. If they created more public areas along the Verde River, and I don't know how you create them unless like Dead Horse, you buy the land and you make it a park or whatever you do. Look at Dead Horse, too. Look at what happened when they created that. A lot of activities would have never taken place if it was private land. So more access to the river would probably be critical. Well, look at Oak Creek. You start driving up the canyon and all those places you can access the creek and camp. Look at the economic influence from all those people coming to camp overnight or go to Slide Rock or the Dairy Queen or whatever. It's all right there. (personal conversation) So more river

access would be really nice. A lot of signs "No river access" when you turn down the streets to keep people out.

Q 5: In your opinion, what information and facts are there that could be used to promote and advance the connection between the Verde River and potential sustainable economic development in the Verde Valley? Well, just the facts that we just discussed. That's information that could be used, that could be used to promote in advance. The facts are like you said that everybody says that there's not enough access to it. Sustainable economic development. Well again, I'm not going to bring up the lake. It would be sustainable economic development. I think more access to the river. Something that isn't occurring yet? (Doug says lake is valid idea or economic ideas brought on by a lake) Again, this is just locally, you could do a survey, it's been a while, it's been 20 years since they closed the lake and the golf course, but if you did a survey of how many people enjoyed or have used Peck's Lake, you have local data for that. You wouldn't even have to go to the Tempe Lake. Look at how many people, you know what I mean. Tons of people. And that golf course was just wonderful. To build a golf course around a lake, I know golf courses use a lot of water and they're not building golf courses any more generally unless they're done with wastewater, treated water. A lot of recreational activities around a public access to the lake. Everybody went to Peck's Lake, fireworks were there, everybody used it.

Q 6: Who are important potential supporters in advancing the connection between a healthy Verde River and sustainable economic development?Nature Conservancy. They're the people that I have dealt with directly and actually discussed when I did appraisals of properties along the river...you know, if they had all the money in the world, they would buy all the property on the river. The Nature Conservancy surely supports a healthy Verde River. I don't know about the sustainable economic development because they're anti-development. I mean they don't want residential development along the river. They don't want subdivisions on these parcels they bought. That's what I'm getting at. I wouldn't think they would be against people using the river, but I'm talking about developing real estate along the river. Is that correct? They're okay with that. They buy them so they're not developed basically. If they knew it was going to stay a farm or a ranch over a hundred years why would they buy them. That's why they bought Shill's ranch. ??? 17:42 Although the economic downturn is certainly helped that kind of...there are not going to be any subdivisions around anywhere. It forestalls the threat. A business person, I would think. Anybody that does business. It just depends on population growth, tourism. There's certainly want the Verde River to be helped. I mean everybody with a brain that does business, or has a business here, or even visits here, tourists who enjoy coming here. Say to Dead Horse. They wouldn't come I don't think, a lot of them, if it was a dry river bed. Everybody. Look at all those rocks ??? 18:39 It makes it easier to get at the sand and gravel. The answer is everybody who lives here, everybody who has a business here, or visits here would certainly give a damn about the health of the Verde River.

Q 7: What or who do you see as current or potential barriers to advancing sustainable economic development in connection with a healthy river( for example, laws and regulations, property rights, institutional like ditch companies, water companies, historic uses, etc.), changing cultural values? (If response is that “there are too many,” ask for top 3-5…interviewer’s discretion)I'm trying to think. You give all these examples. The first one that jumps out, we were talking about legal access, property rights. If you don't have all these places where you can legally access the river, you have to purchase the property or condemn. That's a barrier to advancing economic development. Because if you can't have access to the river, that's the development we were talking about, developing places where the public can use the river. I don't know about ditch companies. I think the current mess we're all in, the economic mess, I could see that the state of Arizona and/or the county, I guess the state would be more likely. They were closing state parks. Were going to close more as we all know. I think this thing might last a while longer than most people do. I think that's an immediate barrier. There's no

money to do any of this stuff we're talking about. Unless it were done privately. There's no money for the state. There's no public money. The state parks, even privately you know. The Nature Conservancy in speaking with them, they don't have the funds. People aren't giving the money like. I think that's going to be a ramification for a lot longer than most people think. I think the river is in immediate need of help from what I read. I don't it might be a hydrologist. Clearly, it's substantially worse than it was 20 or 30 years ago. I don't see where the money's going to come from. It's not like the Walton thing donating, but the state being able to develop anything, any more parks, any more recreational activities along the river that would help economic development. I just don't think there's going to be money. I think that when there is money available finally, it would go to schools and stuff first, not that it shouldn't. It would go to other uses first. Maybe they'll ACCHSS or Medicaid will pay for some more organ transplants that they just stopped paying for and stuff like that. I think that would come first. It may be a long ways off before there's money to help the river from the state. I think the river will always be low on the priority list. Well especially education and hiring back a lot of the people that used to have jobs for the cities, the state, and the counties. As more services become necessary when the economy improves, the money will be spent on salaries and paying off the debt that we're going to have. I just really think this economic thing will cause havoc for a long time. We're only 4 or 5 years into this still. It's going to change people's thinking the same way the Depression changed our grandparents' way of thinking. They didn't have credit cards and they didn't buy on credit. It changed the thinking of people like you and me...younger people, people who are running municipalities and states might be a little more prudent and not all of a sudden ??? 24:24 funds. You told me that. You meet with these people right? They're so stupid. That's what I think about the economic development of anything along not just the river, but anything. There's no money. If you had private funds for any...we've talked about as a society privatizing social security, we've already privatized more schools. Our charter schools are public, but they're quasi. We talk about how the private sector can do so much good in social security. Donations. Things like the Shriners Hospital that's supported by private money. If we had all the private money coming in, it wouldn't matter that the state couldn't spend a penny. Yeah, to answer your question directly about these people helping out. It's really necessary now. It becomes more necessary when there isn't public money available.

Q 8: Who do you think might be interested in using the findings of this Verde River Economic Development Study, including the results of interviews such as this one?I would think that, despite of what I just said, the state would be interested, the county would be interested. The cities along the Verde River would be interested. Certainly the people who depend upon, you know we talked about all these businesses that depend up on this area. The tourists and the people who live here. I would think anybody in business. These idiots that are in the state legislature should be interested. I was going to say the state department. Just all the bureaucracies that have to do with the state, the state parks, the legislature. They should all be interested. Chamber of commerce for sure. Anybody promoting tourism. Even people like Dan (Mabery) could use this info to promote their specific business. Realtors who are on the river. Our business is located on the Verde River. There aren't that many businesses that are on the river obviously. And the White Horse is like Yogi Berra says, "Nobody goes there any more, they're too crowded"??? 27:29. The first half of that statement is true. They've been closed for close to 10 years now. A good investment by the Conlins. (personal talk) You know Ann Conlin? She's pretty helpful to me a long time when I need stuff in Jerome.

How long in the Verde Valley? July 24, 1971, Phyllis moved here a week sooner. Laura moved here on the 28th. Laura was one of the few people born in Sedona.Interacts with the Verde River: appraisal work along the river; business, we don't recreate on the river. We have, like everybody. I swam in the river. Don't swim anywhere any more.

If you had $5M to use for the Verde River??$5M or 10M isn't that much. ($50M). The reason I say that is that Penny Shill's property sold for $7M something to the Nature Conservancy. That's a quarter mile river frontage, 300 acres. That only gives

you a quarter mile of river frontage. Right across the river, that's property that's the Rockin' N, I think it is, Ranch sold a couple or three years before and roughly kind of deal, not very much river frontage. That was way over $10M spent for maybe about a quarter mile of river frontage on either side, both sides. So if you had $50M, besides buying properties, buying real estate that would allow you to develop these recreational activities we're speaking of along the river. Instead of buying like the Nature Conservancy, just to not let somebody develop it, buy properties like the state park. I guess that's the state park's business. They buy properties and make them into parks so do the same thing. Buy properties and make them into other types of recreation entities. Like the Tempe Lake thing without being a lake. I don't know how polluted the river is, but I sense that if it is polluted, you could sure spend some money trying to clean it up and make sure that whatever it is that is polluting it is rectified. And maybe even have some of that money, if somebody's perfectly willing to get rid of their septic system but they can't afford to put in a $20 thousand alternate system, do it for them. Have the money set aside for people that can't, even if they can afford it, to hell with it. I don't know how polluted the river is. You know more about that then I do. One of the things we don't have is like Slide Rock is closed every now and then because of the bacteria and that's largely because of what's coming in. And I think it's largely because of people being in it. See we don't have that on the river. It's mostly septic though upstream. Mechanical septic system is very expensive. There's a reason they say you can't put them this close to a waterway. Somebody did figure it out. Wells, I don't think wells are polluting anything. They're just taking water, but they're not part of the pollution problem. Then again, if they're taking water, that's an issue. I would think that would be secondary or third or fourth to help people to redrill their wells, but as long as this drought goes on...and I don't know it's a drought. I think it might be a permanent thing. I'm not a meteorologist or anything but it seems that the way things are changing in this 15 year generational drought like we've talked about before. We know that certain areas are going to be changed forever, like the Arctic area. I think they say temperatures are up what 15-20 degrees and that's what's causing the cold weather in the northeast. About the air coming farther down, the cold air's getting out of that area. I think that whatever's causing us that allows us go out in the middle of the winter, dead of winter right now, and lay in the sun comfortably, not just today, but many days in the last six weeks other than 2 weeks ago. Or a week ago. You know what I'm saying. The climate's change and the river is going to suffer because of that. It was way colder than ever experienced in the Verde Valley. We were in Flagstaff a week ago Tuesday and I was dressed as we walked into the Wildflower Bakery about a 100 yards, I was never this cold skiing. Never. And I was dressed. Somebody told me on Kerly Lane that it was -1. Is that possible? When we got...we left on Wednesday morning to go to her doctor stuff, left at 7 which was within an hour of the low which was around dawn, it was 17 degrees here. When we got home, it was 31. At 3 pm, it was 31. It's as cold as I've ever seen it. While I was standing outside of St. Joseph's hospital at 2 o'clock and it was 43 degrees.

Who else to interview?You're obviously concerned, not interested in people's opinions south, where the Verde River runs into the Salt. You're caring about the Verde Valley. Have you interviewed the bureaucrats yet? The state parks people? The Game and Fish people? Game and Fish could probably give you a lot of input on the Verde River, what they need, what's going on, when they get this various areas set apart for eagles nesting and all that stuff and how important that is. What about the Yavapai Apaches, not just because they do sand and gravel, but they've been here, they're here forever. They don't care about the river because of the casino. It doesn't matter. They're just here. They might have some input. Like Tom Mulcaire has run a business down by the river, still has property down by the river. He's built illegal houses along the river. He's run businesses along the river with his sand and gravel. It's too bad you can't interview somebody like Chuck I guess. He bought that property in the early 60s, Chuck Mabery. What about national park people, Tuzigoot people? Kathy Davis is national monument. Mulcaire will say what he thinks.

One of the ways that you can establish the economic value of the Verde River is to go through an exercise where there is no Verde River. What do you think the economic differences in the Verde Valley would be if there were no river? If the river dried up tomorrow.When we moved here, we did not consider, we were 20-21 years old, the river didn't mean anything except that there probably wouldn't have been a town. There would have been one fourth of the people. There wouldn't be a viable economic base for her dad to come up here and buy the restaurant. We wouldn't have been here. If it dried up, I'm trying to think of anybody who uses irrigation for anything other than personal use. Lost irrigation rights so what would happen. Property values of properties that were irrigated would go down. It's an interesting point that they've already gone down so much that as a dollar amount they go down less, percentage wise they might go down the same. It would cost people less money. They would lose property value. Do you think it's the same ratio that it used to be? Phyllis: I think they might lose another 25% after they already got hit going down. It used to be like 50-55% premium for if you had an acre somewhere that was $40K, another acre on the river was going to be $60-65K irrigated. Property values are so damaged right now and 40 was a stupid number. A property that was 100 would be 150-160 on the river. Now those $100K properties are work $40K and they're probably still worth $50-55 if irrigated so that's probably a 35-40% premium. So they'd lose that, 25-35% for people who have irrigated property. I think that property on the river might even be damaged more because you'd have property on a wash all of a sudden. You wouldn't just lose the water like irrigated people lose a function. You'd lose the function because most of those properties are irrigated and the aesthetics. You'd be on a dusty wash instead of a river. If would still flood occasionally, so you'd still have the flood plain issue to deal with. I would be interested to see what the corps of engineers did for flood plain. How they'd redraw it, if they did. It's a hundred year flood plain. I don't know that all the people who come here, they come to visit Jerome. That has nothing to do with the Verde River. So there are just... goes back to our question earlier of who benefits is anybody who has a business. It can't do anything but help to have a river. There's got to be a lot of businesses where it's a neutral factor, I think. Laura had some friends come to visit Jerome and they wanted to eat in Old Town Cottonwood. So they gave Eric some business. The river can't be a negative fact and it's not neutral, so it is positive. I don't know what would happen...if it's going to be negative. I prefer to use Tom Ball's ?? 45:09 It would have a deleterious effect. (personal talk) Lake Mead is have such a negative effect on that area and it's drying up. It's just such a mentally negative thing to see and hear of it. Even if you don't use the Verde River, just the fact that you would see it and know that it's dry, if you would go to Dead Horse you'd care. It just one of those things that would be a downer to anybody. What happened when the Salt River was dammed up? And it didn't flow through Phoenix anymore? I don't know. What did that do to Phoenix? Agriculturally it mattered hugely, but I don't know how much. They still had cotton, oranges. They did stop the flow of water to Phoenix at one point when Roosevelt Dam was built? It didn't stop Phoenix from growing. Phoenix was so much bigger and had so many other things going for it that a community of 25, 000 or the Verde Valley of 50,000. Phoenix had a lot more going for it. Cottonwood was 5,000 when I moved here, Verde Village was from 0-20 seriously. There were about 5 houses. So that would be 5,000 in the city limits. Bridgeport probably had 5. So that would probably be maybe 20, 000 in the whole Verde Valley. Tripled in size in 30 years. Verde Village was the engine for about 25 years until they built Del Webb. One of the things they used to bring people, remember they would drive them up here. You could buy a lot in Verde View for $800 and a couple of other subdivisions in town for $800 but they flew them out here, picked them up in Phoenix and drove them up here and we're selling lots for $3-4K cause that's all they did. They would show them the river. The river was part of the presentation and Verde Willows was developed along the river. They showed them the parks, common areas, so to some people, I'm sure it mattered. To some people, it didn't. It was part of the matter to the developers. They could have bought all of the other ??? 49:09 on the planet, but they chose to buy stuff on the river. Doug interviews Tom Pitts, March 1, 2011, recording okay, doesn't need to be anonymous, approval if possible, verdevalleywine.tomhotmail.com, 928-639-3141

Q 1: What do you think are the most significant factors influencing the health of the Verde River system?

That's hard to answer that in 10 words or less. Obviously there's the general threat of pumping the water out of the headwaters right now. The Big Chino aquifer is a major concern. We all know there's a lot of pressures on the groundwater with the pumping of the wells and so on throughout the area. Throughout the entire watershed but especially here in the Verde Valley. I think a positive side that I'm seeing is a lot more concern for the health of the river. There's been a lot more awareness especially in the last 5 years. It's come up dramatically. As a result, I know some of the projects we're working on like the Verde Valley Wine Consortium or our sustainable agriculture group. We're looking at more food production and the idea of the necessity of having a healthy water supply. That's been a good step for us. A lot more people are paying attention to it. I think there's a heightened awareness of regional interest that has really dramatically come up in the last 5 years. I know as an example, when I got involved with the Chamber of Commerce in Jerome, I actually became the president 4 1/2-5 years ago, there would people who kind of pulled me aside, and some of those were like "we don't talk to those people". Like somehow the communities didn't work together. There was this almost high school clique going on. I said which guys. Oh you know, Sedona, Clarkdale, Cottonwood. I said are you nuts! In that time period, there's been a heightened team work effort that's moved forward. I'm sorry, I may be getting out of sequence with these questions. As an examples, our Sedona-Verde Valley Tourism Council became very active with the 5 chambers of commerce working together here in the valley. It made us all see things on a regional basis, more than we used to and more of a cooperative effort. The river obviously is the core of what this is all about. When we set out, as an example, to do some branding for our tourism council. And we brought in a number of outside expediters and so on to do it. We started talking about imagery and who are we and how do we think of ourselves. It's call the Sedona-Verde Valley Tourism Council consciously because everything from website search engine values of having both of those terms involved, Sedona and Verde Valley, and we certainly saw the power of the red rocks and all of the that as being an attraction here. But the core to us was the Verde River. So green because an important Verde green tie in. It became a key terminology that we wanted to use. When people think about this area, we wanted them to think Verde, we wanted them to think green, sustainable, all those things, tie them together. When they started the Verde Valley Regional Economic organization shortly thereafter, the same kind of thing. We pulled together stakeholders from throughout the Verde Valley and quite consciously set out to do a private-public as opposed to public-private organization to look at economic development. There's nothing wrong with the public-private, but sometimes there's very short term interest by necessity, an elected official needs to look a 2-year window or a very short window. So we certainly wanted the public input. I didn't mean that that was going to be isolated as you well know. We work both sides of the street. But if we had long-term stakeholders here, let's get them to the table and let's find a way to pull these things together. Well we did. I happen to be one of the 3 key people in drafting our core values and by-laws and all that sort of thing. Our core values were very, very important to us. We had looked at things like the governor's smart growth programs and that kind of thing. But that idea of a sense of place, the idea of what brought us here in the first place. What's special about this place that we don't want to lose in the course of development. We want to maintain and sustain because that's why we're here. Almost every one of us are here by choice. There are very few people who were born here or go back many, many generations or who have never been outside the confines of the valley. Almost all of us are here by choice and there's some very special things that brought us here. So we wanted to weave that into what we did with our development. Of course, the core of that is the Verde River without which none of these pieces start to fit. What it did was cause a lot of use to again to see things on a regional basis, see things on a kind of connectivity between interests. As an example, we did a presentation must be 3 yars ago now on the open plans and so on for the Verde Valley and the growth plans. We did a session over at the casino. Almost every group from the area came together and did a presentation. We did one from VVREO, everybody from state parks, the forest people, to name it. We must have had a dozen groups at least. I think what surprised everybody is we sat and listened to each others' presentations and some of the groups I'd never even heard of, as active as I am, every time one of them would show up, I'd say "who are those guys." I thought I was pretty involved. We're pretty visible. At the end of the presentations, this was over the course of 3 or 4 hours, the county helped put that together. Tammy, as a matter of

fact, ?? 8:03 helped coordinate the public presentations and all that. In the session, we all kind of looked at each other and kind of realized that we're all pretty much saying the same thing. We really did have a very common vision for what was happening here. I think what impressed me more than anything else was the Yavapai Apache Nation who sponsored and provided the venue itself for that meeting. Norman Smith at that time was the vice-chair and I talked to him after the meeting. Normally when you're doing something over there, somebody from the nation will get up and say welcome, glad we can host this, isn't this wonderful, you start the meeting and then you leave. Well, Norman stayed for the whole meeting. I think he was as impressed as we were because we were all seeing his neighborhood in the same way. I talked to him at some length after the meeting. I think he was just, it became a case of how can we work better together. We have common interests in the water, common interests in the river. I have to say that there's plenty of diverse interests that exist, but it was that common purpose and that common vision that certainly struck me and struck him and I thing everybody in the room felt the same. That's a real core value, the river, that, and as I say, I think these numerous diverging interests have started to help kind of look over the fence to see what the other guys were doing. We all started to realize that we're really seeing this place in the same way and it really raised the awareness of the regional impact. (mentioned groundwater pumping and the impact) Well, we live in Arizona and as I'm sure we both know, Arizona law doesn't think that surface water and groundwater have anything in common. Back in my misspent youth when I was studying chemical engineering at the University of Arizona, I was looking at fluid flow dynamics and some of those kinds of things, there's a certain part of me that goes well duh. Obviously there's a connection. Now, we have a very special place here for a number of reasons. One of the them is the really deep soils and strata that we have here in the Verde Valley. The actual bedrock is a long way down there. So there is not only the source water that we see from the aquifer upstream somewhat, but there's quite a basin here that creates kind of unique circumstances. It's very deeply drained soil. As the president of the wine consortium, it's something that I look at of course for the grape growing. It requires deep soil for it to be effective. There's a surface flow, then a sub-flow, and then there's kind of the residual impact below all of that. It hasn't been mapped as well as it should be. It's getting better, but there are, I don't know how political to get with this kind of answer, but when the USGS released the study a couple three years ago, looking at the Verde River and all that sort of thing, I found it fascinating and I went to both presentations because they did a presentation on this side of the hill and another presentation over in Prescott. I don't know if you attended either of those. You were at this one, if I recall. Did you get to the one in Prescott? That was the eye opener to me. They actually did this one first, and on this side of the hill. Nice powerpoint and lots of supporting data and very well presented and just really good solid science, good information. At the end of the presentation, the questions were kind of what I expected. What kind of recharge rates are we looking at if we use some of this water, the history, and that sort of thing. Went to the one over in Prescott, the exactly identifial presentation, same powerpoint, same presenter, same everything else. At the end of the presentation, a hand went up and they called on this fellow and he stood up and he said, "Well, if you believe this science stuff" and I thought here we go. Because obviously was some one pointing out the dangers to the river if we did substantial pumping out of the aquifer. So this comment was "well, you've got a study and we'll go get our own scientist and we'll have our own study to counter this whole thing." I thought if you're going to try to politicize it to that degree, then we have a real problem. I have no problem with trying to do some real science, to find out what the real recharge rate is, find out an official way to deal with this kind of thing, to see what we can withdraw. When I think in terms of the pumping, my only real concern, you know, is that there is a lot of undocumented or untracked pumping that takes place. The threat to me is that as we get more and more people, we get more wells, and there's more and more being pumped. It's not that I think we have diminished or destroyed the watershed, because I don't think we have at this point. Is there a point where that starts to be an issue and how do you measure, how do you define and keep track of that sort of thing?

Q2: Do you feel there are things about the Verde River that we need to understand better? If so, what are they?

(started in previous questions) Let me give you an example of something up in Jerome that isn't technically part of what we're dealing with here. You know we live on spring water up there. We're always constantly concerned with drought and water flow and all the things that go with that. Up there being in Jerome. I was talking to John Demsey. John can be a interesting discussion to say the least. And somebody had been talking about water flow and drought and the problems. He said, "You've got to remember back in the day when there were 15,000 people inside the current town limits up there plus another 8-10,000 outside the city limits plus the smelter operating down here plus everything else, that same spring was providing plenty of water. Now we have less than 500 people living up there. We may take more showers and everybody's going oh my god, the world's coming to an end. We won't have enough water." Well reality says we don't know what that point is. But I've heard people, and you probably have too, going why don't you dynamite that spring and get all of that water the hell out of there and just use it up. I'm not a big fan for that sort of thing, any more than I'm a big fan of saying pump out of the Big Chino. For short term use and we'll worry about the long term consequences later. That's probably way more of an answer than you're actually looking for. That idea of us not knowing what the flow really is, not knowing what the real source is, not knowing what the capacity might really be. We're getting more and more information, more than we've ever had before.

Q 3: To your knowledge what, if any, economic development activities have recently been, or are currently being, conducted that directly relate to the Verde River? Who is involved in these activities? There's a lot of different kinds of economic development to depend upon the river. From recreational use to tourism use to obviously one of my pets is as the president of the Verde Valley Wine Consortium. Up until 2006, the Arizona law did not permit these folks to do business the way they're doing business. So there was a very, very limited amount of that kind of agriculture taking place in Arizona. As recently as 2000, there were only 9 bonded wineries in Arizona period. When those laws changed, and suddenly ??? 16:42 saw it was possible to get people to come in and make that change. We've had, I'm happy to say, very, very real proliferation of vineyards and winemakers appearing in the area and it's growing dramatically. The good news to me is that these are arid region plants, these are desert plants to start with. They don't require much water, but they require some waters, especially when they're being initially planted. So when I think Verde, I think Verde and the Verde watershed which might include Oak Creek and the other creeks that are feeding the Verde. Most of these vineyards are planted in the area where there is some access to that water. I don't know if you've seen, we don't have our final economic contribution study done yet, but have you seen some of these preliminary figures from the University of Arizona? I got together a few a couple of years ago to create an impact study and this is like an executive summary but it's not finished yet. We should have it any day. This is prepared by Art Glenn ??? 17:51 with the Arizona water concession?? Here are just a few and I'll leave you a copy of this, and again this isn't the final study, but the economic activity because of the Verde Valley wines, the wines made here in the Verde Valley, in the fiscal year ending June 30, 2010, so July 1, 2009, to June 30, 2010, is over $19M. This number of cases and gallons produced that's actually low and the acreage has gone up. The idea of 124 people now employed in that industry. And understand that this is a business that didn't exist five years ago in its current form. I don't want to get into all the history but if you haven't heard why and how or what those changes are...Eric was involved. He was one of the three key players in getting together in the house and the senate onboard. We're talking millions of dollars in the industry itself and then in the support industry. So again putting on my Verde Valley Wine Consortium hat, I started working with the state, this was when Napolitano was still the governor, and with the head then, about three heads back, in the Department of Commerce and Arizona Office of Tourism and all these other people to recognize what we're doing here. We were able to have the wineries here, as a group of wineries and the tasting rooms, recognized as a destination driver by the state of Arizona. The term they use for the attractions that are bringing the visitors to the area. So in the same sense as the casino, Out of Africa or the train as a magnet. We're now on that level. So the wineries are automatically included in all the state promotions for tourism period. And for this reason particularly. The connection between the wine industry and the Verde River...without water, we've got no agriculture. We can't grow the grapes. As I said, some are

actually on the Verde River and some are on Oak Creek and some of these other areas. (are any actually using surface water?) I need to get a real answer on that because I don't know for sure. Obviously you've got springs and wells and other things involved as well and again where does it connect. But if you draw off the water table, it's going to affect it one way or the other which is a major concern. (Why plant near the river or a creek?) It is water. Water is certainly part of it. Now whether you're drilling or taking it straight out of the river or the ditches or whatever it might be, access is going to be part of that issue. Water table is obviously going to be higher closer to the river than it is elsewhere. The slopes are a key issue. You don't see lots and lots of grapes on real flat land. You want well drained land. So part of the, as an example, if you were to, and this is not necessarily an exact case study but a general statement. Were you to be taking water out of the river to water your grapes, it's going to drain back through that soil very quickly and back into the water table. You need well drained soil and those hills and so on above the creeks and river tends to be very well, open well drained material. Here with the residue that the river provides in the first place, I guess we get back to the days of the inland sea and all that kind of thing, too. With the limestone and a lot of the volcanic materials.

Q 4: What potential economic development opportunities exist which are associated with the Verde River system in the Verde Valley? I think there's a lot more potential for what we've started with agriculture and the grapes. Included there are some tourism impacts. You know about the water to wine tours in Sedona down to Alcantera. We have a special opportunity for that particular kind of crop. It doesn't require much water, but it does require some. I think we'll see that expand dramatically. We are already. Of course, we've started the programs through the college. The wine program at the college, I'm teaching some of the courses over there now. We're in the process of, we have the viticulture program that's already established. Now we're getting ready to start the enology ?? 23:04 of winemaking program, bringing in private money from outside. To save budget money, save taxpayer money. We're counting on that. $3.4M budget cut this year for the college. The governor made it quite clear when I was down there for our little get together luncheon down there. I heard some of her commentary about fighting the federal government. If you can waste all your time and resources in fighting the federal government, good luck. And cutting the educational budgets and the like, but we have been able to attract outside revenue to do that because of our special place. We are bringing in to the foundation others' money to both do expansion of the vineyards and to build a winery and actually start the process of wine while I'm teaching it here. And I'm doing a little homework trying to move some of the longer term research resources here if we're going to make this the center of the industry. Then let's make it the center of the industry. It's going to be the data center of Arizona. The bottom line is first of all, when we started that viticulture course, the first of the actual courses was last fall. In the catalog and the curriculum. I'm sure you know that the whole 2 year program has been approved and on board and in the catalog. The idea then is to do a 2+2 probably tie in with the U of A and do a four year degree with students staying here because this where they're grown. But then actually get a four-year degree and perhaps a master's degree as well. The U of A did research going back into the 1970s before it was legal to grow grapes and make wine at all under any circumstances here. There is a body of knowledge that would be really nice to consolidate when you're teaching the courses here so I'd like to see that material brought here to make it even a bigger center and what that will do is...as an example of the viticulture class last fall, we had 5 students driving up here from Phoenix, 2 students coming down from Flagstaff, 2 coming over the hill from Prescott to take the course here. It's the only course in the state. In that sense, it's become a magnet and most of the people who are taking that course and it's hard to get a hard number, but according to a survey of the students in the class, over 50% of those people planned to plant and grow new vineyards. So they're not taking the class just to get a job. To learn a trade. They're taking it to actually learn what the real concept is so they can put more capital and so on into their investments. That to me is a pretty key possibility here. I think and we're also getting feedback from the nation and some of the others about growing grapes on their property which would add another piece to it. There's some discussion about putting a winery out there. I'll just say there's been some discussion. There are federal, they have their own set of rules. The tourism

that is associated with that as well is another economic driver for us here. The good news for all of us and some states don't see it that way, but we do here in the state of Arizona, we see tourism as being an export business. They come here, they leave their money, and they go home. It creates some infrastructure and support mechanisms that are far beyond what our population might normally be able to afford. Now as far as an industrial base and some other uses. There's lots of discussion and I haven't seen anything yet that I can point to that's going to be the next big wave. As you know we have plenty of issues here with transportation and other things, we have to take a look at. But part of the reasons we formed VVREO was to create some other activity and it is as I'm sure you're aware, we're in the process of trying to put together a revolving loan fund and some other ways to help especially the smaller businesses to get established. There's kind of a key here in that the river and its environs have attracted the people that are here and part of what we're trying to do in VVREO is look at those that are location neutral businesses. We working as you know to try to develop a serious high-speed internet over here in the Valley which we don't really have. The broadband coalition. You've got some staffers that are heavily involved in that. Actually Jodie and I started that war about 4 years ago when the governor and her committee and so on because what a crucial thing that would be. Then we can talk about wealth development for the stakeholders that are already here, not just bringing new people in. Raising the bar for the people who are right here and they've been attracted by these special circumstances we have.

Q 5: In your opinion, what information and facts are there that could be used to promote and advance the connection between the Verde River and potential sustainable economic development in the Verde Valley?

Q 6: Who are important potential supporters in advancing the connection between a healthy Verde River and sustainable economic development?From an organizational view point. I've already mentioned a couple that I think are important. I think VVREO, a reasonable economic development group. The tourism council from the perspective that it's the five chambers of commerce working together. So it ties a level of involvement to the business community that might not be there otherwise. I certainly think the IGA, the intergovernmental activities that are taking place here. I think there's more awareness. I don't always attend those meetings, but from what I've seen from reports and feedback, I think there's some awareness there. I think Yavapai County is a key player. I think there's both threats and positive energies depending upon where you are in the county and who all you're playing with. I think the county itself is a player that's important to us. I think USDA. We've been working with USDA for rural development and the like since the state has basically bailed out of rural development with very minor exceptions although oddly enough. USDA has a rural development arm and they also have loan funds, they have a number of support funds for everything from logistics. There's a possiblity that and it’s something that we're all working on, the new ACA, the Arizona Commerce Authority, the governor's new body, clearly has about 173% of their energy focused on Maricopa County. The great state of Maricopa, but they have some money. And there's actually more to it than that. If the initiatives they're working on, if the areas of interest it's the medical development and the technology development issues and so on, really develop the way they've been talked, if it doesn't just turn into lip service, it's hard to tell because it's so new at this point. But as an example, there's some medical research and so on dollars available. We're already had these discussions internally and to a minor degree with Don Carter ?? and some others. Because we have the college here, because we have the medical center here, we have a potential to tie in to some revenue streams in a relatively isolated area for prosthetic devices. There's a whole array of things that we might be able to do some test work on up here with community involvement and again because we already have some community involvement. When VVREO won the award as the best small economic development group from the state last year, that was kind of the signal that people noticed that we were actually doing stuff together. As you well know, our involvement with NACOG and some of these other groups Casey Rooney's directly involved in and chairs the economic development committee for NACOG. We have put ourselves in the loop with

a lot of people and that's why I mentioned USDA. We've had a number of meetings with USDA's rural development side as well some of their other finance areas and their value added grants if they get the money this year. We've talked about some of our business enterprises here and ?? 32:31 for that matter, coming in and saying, if you want to add a ??? line 32:34 or another warehouse or expand our operations, they won't do start up with those dollars, but they will do an expansion for a going concern. And if we can in the meantime establish our revolving loan fund and work with the consortium of banks, which is what we're trying to do, then it gives us that other leg on that stool. Another way to say maybe a particular employer is kind of maxed out, what they've already done is as much expansion as their credit line will allow. Now they've had success and they can go back to their bank and pick arbitrary numbers, say I need $100K to expand the warehouse or add some other tool to raise the value of their product. Maybe their credit worthiness is $50K. Well, if we've got a secondary position or we can come in with revolving loan fund and pick up that slack of the higher risk, secondary position, after the bank has already vetted the deal, they've already looked at it so we don't have to do a lot of leg work. Maybe we were in a position to provide a little marketing, help with a little business assistance, whatever might be to go with that. Then that's really kind of raised the bar and increased business here.

Q 7: What or who do you see as current or potential barriers to advancing sustainable economic development in connection with a healthy river( for example, laws and regulations, property rights, institutional like ditch companies, water companies, historic uses, etc.), changing cultural values? (If response is that “there are too many,” ask for top 3-5…interviewer’s discretion)Number one is the education or awareness. I mentioned that it's my opinion that we have a much, much higher awareness than we've had, but it's still not broad enough. There are many of thoughts involved in trying to expand this knowledge and awareness of what we're doing, but it hasn't penetrated everybody in the valley yet. There's a lot of people that still don't get it. So we need to increase that visibility. That kind of awareness. We need to be concerned about state law and restrictions. Our current state legislature is a challenge. (what would you like to see changed about state law?) The delay that happens in various incentive programs whether it's jobs programs or whatever it might be were suddenly encompassed in this bill that just got rushed through and nobody's even read yet. It's the so called jobs bill. It depends on who you're talking to. When the governor was addressing us and I'll say us because you and I were there with that legislative luncheon, it was the jobs bill. Now when it was addressed to the media, it was the tax relief bill. The same bill. When it was passed, I think it's safe to say that I don't know that a single member of the legislature had read the bill. Maybe a staffer had read chunks of it, but I know all the leadership said they hadn't read it. Scares me to death that there could be a restriction or a problem that shows up in a piece of legislation that they didn't know about until after the fact and then you have to go back and fight it. That kind of thing is a concern. Unintended consequences. I'll give you one example that's there right now. There's an omnibus labor bill that in the Senate right now. It got the ??? 36:09 that stuck on it along the way, most of it which is pretty benign. It's a pretty straight forward bill except lost in paragraph J or somebody's amendment is language demanding a minimum of 5,000 square feet before you can do any sampling of wine and alcoholic beverages. When we came across that because we're all trying to pay attention to our business interests, my gawd, if they took that to mean that you couldn't have a tasting room with a winery with less than 5,000 square feet. So they all these new enterprises that are being successful would be out of business overnight. I guess presumably to the benefit of Deb ??? 36:55 or the big box kind of stores, the Costcos and such. So we can look at it and we believe the licensing under which these businesses currently operate will protect them from that and their target is to not see sampling penetrate down to the Circle K's and the rest of these smaller ??? 37:13. But the unintended consequences, I spoke to some of these legislators about it as did some of the other interested parties around the state. And at the moment, we're still watching to make sure something stupid like that doesn't slide through and you get nailed and then you have to go back and start over. The federal melt down or the melt down period obviously has potential consequences for all of us for economic well-being. There are other obvious threats. I mentioned one before. The idea of, one that we're concerned about here, suddenly pumping the water out of the Big Chino aquifer and drying up 26

miles of the river. And I know there are people that will say, oh no problem, we'll replace the water. I'd like to see where or how. We're on this side of the hill (like SRP's position, show me and then pump) Well the other issue we're going to have is the water rights issues. There are a lot of legal cases moved forward starting from the Salt River and working your way up. So from SRP and all that kind of thing as well. Some of which have been properly filed. Some of which have been improperly adjudicated over the years. Any of those could give us a big surprise at some point. So of course, that is a concern.

Q 8: Who do you think might be interested in using the findings of this Verde River Economic Development Study, including the results of interviews such as this one?I would sincerely hope that everybody that lives in the Verde Valley and/or has an interest in the Verde Valley would be an absolutely rapt audience. This is a big deal. I mean this is a cornerstone of the existence of this whole region. I think it's imperative and it behooves all of us to do anything we can to distribute that information as soon as we have it. When we started doing the original things as an example, we've got a number of small communities here, but we have a lot more knowledge base, a lot more life experience and a lot more tools to work with than say a population of 10,000 or whatever it might be and what these communities might be. Together the population of the Verde Valley right now is at or above the population of Prescott and that's a big surprise to people sometimes. Not everything on the other side of the hill. By the time you add everything all the way over to the western end of the county, we don't have all that, but now the changes in supervisors or rerepresenation and so on. There's going to be changes in that kind of thing to. Number 1 obviously is the people who are here. Number 2 is to make sure that, I think, that people in the state of Arizona understand the value of what we bring to the table. I do think, I mean we've brought a lot of people up here in the last 4 or 5 years that I've been active. Where that be media coming up here for family trips, familiarization tours. Whether that be people who have an inerest like travel agens. Bringing people up here whether that be, you know is the governor up here because the state of the state a couple years ago. We've had numerous people, who I think were really surprised when they come up and realized how far things had moved and how it's coming together. We had the chief lobbyist in here for the winery industry a month or so ago. She's never been here before. She said point blank that this amazed her at how well organized and how far along this region was. Didn't know. And how impress she was with all that sort of thing. Now we're in the loop because we're seeing all these federal bills and so on because that's another potential threat. For that or any other interest. I think what, the first step is the local population. I think you have to add the county to that because the county board of supervisors and others need to understand what's happening here and how it affects them. It's their constituents whether it's this district or not and county staff. And then I'd think state next and then I'd think we'd have to look very carefully at various federal agencies and so on that might be potential players. Now there's another group that has been on my radar at least and now because of some of the other things that we're doing, I think more people are looking at it as well. I mentioned that there are resources here that go beyond our population. We have a lot of people that spend a portion of their time in the Verde Valley and that's probably more likely in Sedona than it is over here on this side. There's always a bunch here too, including Jerome. Who may still have a business interest in Cleveland, New York or San Francisco or some other place. Many of those people have yet to seriously invest in this area. They have a lot of resources but they still see their primary business address as being someplace else. They're here because they want to be here. They may have bought some property because they want to be here. But there's an investment pool that is becoming aware that we have a potentially threatened area and it's the area that is so special to them in the first place is fragile. And quite frankly, the Waltons are a good example of that kind of thing when they see that foundation understood there was a value here that could be lost. We've seen it in movie people and media people and writers from around the world. It was really fun to have a bunch of wine writers come in from Bordeaux and Paris and Berlin and all that sort of thing. Saying well it's a nice trip, we'll go look at the red rocks. And then they got here and tasted the wine. Their noses were up here when they started and some were

then down in the glass going wow, where did this come from. I hosted them for a lunch up at the restaurant as well so we all had a good shot at them. So the stories were phenomenal because of that. So I think good information in the same sense that I'm looking for economic information from the U of A itself on what we're doing here. Good information is just crucial in getting our message out there. The more data base, the more science base, the more reality base, the bigger the quiver of arrows we've got. And some out there with financial interest might want to come in here and help with these efforts. Quite frankly what you're doing with the sustainability project here, I mean that's a game changer. Not just for here. That's a game changer period. If that model can be developed properly, Wow, where can we go besides wow. What a great vision.

How long lived in the Verde Valley? lived here 5 1/2 years, first came up here in the early to mid-50s so I've been in and out of the neighborhood for a while, but moved up here in '05.How do you interact with the Verde River now? I don't bet my feet wet very often. Certainly visually. I get to look down on it from Jerome. So far as actual day to day

If you had $5M or $10M to spend to produce a healthier Verde River, what would you do?When I first came to Arizona, I first moved here to Arizona in 1952 and at that time there was 7 year round running river systems in Arizona. Now we have one. I kind of miss some of that. There has and I'm kind of backing in to this. I look at some of the work they've done around the Santa Cruz and some of the bigger rivers down south. The first thing we'd have to try to spend the money in the right way. So that would require some study. I wouldn't just give you a top of the head answer, oh I'd write this check and that check. Spend some of the money to decide how to spend the money. We'd be doing some research and some serious study. There are such a wide array of things that can and are being done. You have invasive species issues that should be looked at and dealt with. We're got a riparian area that's been sitting here in the middle of the desert for 2 milliion years. Running river for 2 million years. That's really special. So work is already underway which I certainly help support of looking at the various species that depend upon the river, the bird populations, the animal populations, the fish. I would want to assure myself that monitoring was taking place of various kinds of effluent and other materials showing up in the river. Water quality. And obviously it's what goes in is what comes out. Quality is pretty important. Now and again there's work that's underway of Arizona law has always been a little bit of a challenge when it comes to the use it or lose it proposition. And most of us are conscious of conservation. We certainly don't like to waste water. And like the ditch studies that are going on right now about how do we satisfy those needs with less water, less waste. If somebody downstream is saying if you use less, we're going to take it away from you creates kind of a disincentive so I'd want to look at some legal issues as well. How do we assure ongoing access while effectively considering our resources. Because some of those just run counter. I probably do the SRP thing in reverse. I also might want to get down and do a little study that starts at the Salt River and works our way up. What we've done traditionally is that they're sitting downstream saying "it's ours" and then everybody kind of goes yes sir, yes sir, and that's sort of the end of the discussion. Let's look at the usage all the way downstream as well as all the way upstream. And say how do we maximize that full value. Pumping it out over in Chino Valley is one thing. Pumping it out in Clarkdale or in Cottonwood is obviously something else, but what is the real use of this whole thing. I don't think many people are looking at it as a totality. I think it might be nice to really develop a good overview. I think I'd want to do some other things, too. Obviously with my involvement with the ag folks and the grape growers, I would probably look at some studies too about that kind of usage in this region and have some hard local figures. I got involved in helping them do the draft for the ordinance up in Jerome about growing grapes and water usage and everything that's there. We don't have a local study. Now I know from the history and I've studied this stuff for a long, long time. I actually worked on a series for A&E about 25 years ago on wine and culture and water and all that stuff around the world. I've been playing with this for a long time. But when I was making presentations to them, I was talking about the University of Nevada study, the inherent regions studies, UC Davis, 40 year old out of date stuff that was taking place in this part of the world. I think it might be really interesting to

see exactly what the use and recharge issues are for some of these other uses within the watershed. And again to, and another thing that I like about our grape growers is that they're essentially organic farmers. They are not putting a whole lot of chemicals on their product by definition and one that it ruins the grapes if you're not careful. They had a huge scandal in France 7 or 8 years ago when Shell actually came up with this great new product that you could use in your vineyards and it wound up in the grapes and it was like...you'd lose a whole crop at one time. I actually did a soil additive project and sub funding and distribution for a number of years ago for reclamation stuff and so I would up doing a lot of homework with not just US, but foreign laws, on how it works, and how do you study it and how do you prove that that's not getting into your products. I think that knowing that here and not just for grapes or other crops you're looking at might help us to define better some other potential usage here. Because if it gives you a green open piece of the puzzle here, that also gives us an economic development tool for a piece. Like I said, if we can plant more grapes and turn more of dollars back into tax flow and jobs, that's economic development to me. And if we can do that without destroying over environment. I would be able to turn $10M loose pretty quickly.

Anything about this study concern you?Not knowing who all is in the loop, I've come across a lot of misinformation. I suppose there would be a concern of just screening the information that comes into the study for accuracy just to make sure we don't compound somebody else's misinformation. I know that's something you have to deal with in the political scene all the time. Case in point, when we were doing the ordinance up in Jerome about the grapes and there were a couple of people upset because we were growing grapes up there. They were growing grapes up there 120-130 years ago when the mines were really active. And we've actually found some of those old grape vines. These were definitely European grapes. When the mines took off and all the Europeans came in, they wanted their wine. This area was a great wine producing region. There were all kind of vineyard over there off of Page Springs Road basically, off of Oak Creek. They were over in West Sedona, they ran up the side of the mountain. Maynard's got one that we've located that was a white grape, we don't know what it is yet. Simple study of the grape leaves and so on. We know it's a ?? 55:46 but we don't know what kind it is yet. But we haven't paid for the DNA testing which is expensive. He's done a little proliferation and actually made a little batch of white wine from it this last year which was pretty good stuff. (continued talk about historical grapes and growing grapes in the area)