[ASSEMBLY.]

book a measure that will meet the require-ments not merely of this year but of manyyears to come.

Onl motion by Hon.adjourned.

C. Sommers, debate

1House adjourned at 10.43 p.m.

icotelatiVe teScMbIv,W~ednesday, 15tIh Nocvemb~er, 1.916.

Question: Rocky B~ay piroeosed bridgeBills:; Stateo Salaries Comenonwalth Tatation, la-...

Nelson Rates Volidaio:,, In. .. .. ..Footwear Regulation. In...........Trading Concerns. (No. 2), 2a

Motions: Mining Frusta. Federail Taxnation . ..Flat Rlate fnr Chasf, postponred .. ..Trust Funds Admnistration. Select Commritte

to inquire - . .

Bills Involving Expenditure.............. ...natue,: Railway Sectional Returns, Eastern Gold.

fields..............................Papers: Railwa.Carriao ofr. ..il.. ..

9-10

9;7

07

925936

The SPEAKER took the Chair at 4-30p.m., and read prayers.

QUESTION-ROCKY BAY PROPOSEDBRIDGE.

Mr. S. STUB3BS (for Mr. Allen) askedthe Minister for Works : 1, What has beenthe total amount of expenditure incurredfrom 1st January, 1910, to date, in con-nection with a proposed bridge across theSwan river, below Perth and above RockyBay?7 2, What was the object of thework ? 3. Have any plans been prepared-(a) of the proposed bridge ; (b) of anyworks having collateral relation thereto?4, Hasi a report on the proposal been pre-pared by the Engineer-in.Chief ? 5, Ifplans and a report have been prepared, willthey be laid on the Table of the House?

The MINISTER FOR WORKS replied:1, £8,012. 2, To ascertain the most Suitablelocation for a bridge, having regard both

to the approaches thereto and the foundations, to be obtained in the river. To thisend several surveys and many soundingswere made and numerous bores put down,and a cast-iron cylinder, eight feet indiameter, sunk in the worst position, filledwith concrete and sand, and loaded withrails, to ascertain the bearing capacityof the underlying stratum. This test isat present in progress. 3, (a) Diagramshave been prepared. (b) Sections of theapproaches to the bridge have been drawn.4, No ;data being incomplete. 6. An-swered by No. 4.

BILLS (3)-FIRST READING.1, State Salaries Conmnonwealth Taix-

ation. (Introduced by the Premier.)2, Nelson Rates Validation. (Intro-

duced by the Minister for Works.)3, Footwear Regulation. (Introduced

by Hon. J. D. Connolly, Honorary Minister.)

MOTION-MINNG PROFITS,FEDERAL TAXATION.

Mr. FOLEY (Leonora) [4-43] : I move-That in the opinion of this House the

tax on mining profits, as proposed by theFederal Government, is unfair in itsincidence, and will prejudicially affectmining in this Stote.

I am, not doing this with the intention ofallowing any portion of the State or sectionof the people to escape payment of what Iconsider a fair mend of taxation when wecompare it with the taxation paid by everyother Section of the community. Before Ihave finished I will endeavour to prove thatthe motion is justified. The first asipectof the question to be taken into considerationis the relative importance of our primaryand secondary industries. Ready as weare to gratefully acknowledge what hasbeen done for the State by other primaryindustries, all awe forced to admit thatgold mining was primarily, and in the firstplace solely, responsible for the advance-ment of the State. It provided opportunityfor men, not only to make fortunes forthemselves, but to lift the State out of aposition of obscurity and advertise itthroughout the world. After the gold-

[15 Novncns, 1916.]92

mining industry had made strides and ourmines deepened, many men left the industryand went into other avocations. Someof the best men we have in our fanningareas at the present time are those whospent the earlier years of their lives delvingin the deep mines of Western Australia.Again, I em not pleading for the wage-earner alone. There are men with initiativewho went out and endeavoured to dosomething for themselves. No matter whatavenue of employment a man enters, hedoes not do it from a philanthropic stand-point. There is selfishiness in everythingwe take on. But those men did somethingfor the advancement of the State. Theywent out further than anybody had gonepreviously, and, if they were successful,they benefited not only themselves butalso the community as a u-hole. Mlany ofthose men made money, and they went onthe land and became good agriculturists.Now I come to another class of men, alittle higher up from a financial standpoint-the men who went out and got somethingother than the small mining man or workingminer could get. Those men looked aroundand saw land which could be turned intosomething other than an arid waste.Their knowledge led them to put stock onthat land. Be it said to the credit of thatclass of men, there is scarcely an acre ofour eastern, northern, and 'Murchison gold-fields capable of carrying stock, but iscarrying stock to -day. Unfortunately, thereis not at the present time in Western Aus-tralia, sufficient stock to absorb the fullcapacity of those areas. Absolutely, thegold mining industry has been directlyresponsible for this development. Thedevelopment is such that one can scarcelygo within 10 miles of water without findingstock- That class of men need encourage-ment, whether they hav-c a littlemoney or much money, whether they areon the level of capitalists or on that ofwage-earners. If they have saved sufficientmoney to do something to benefit them-selves, while at the same time benefitingthe country, we should encourage them.We ought not to tax that class unjustlyin comparison with what other taxpayershave to bear. All of us realise that atany time, but especially at the present time,taxation is absolutely necessary. Just now

it is essential for the Carrying On of the war.Further, it will be necessary for the bearingof the aftermath of the war, which weknow will be just as serious a question asthe carrying on of the war is at the presenttime. So far, at all events in my hearing,there has been only talk of what shall bedone. Wv7hen the time comes for doingsomething, the legislative bodies through-out Australia will not shirk their respon-sibilities ; otherwise it will be the dutyof the people to put other legislators in.their places. My reason for moving themotion is my belief that the gold miningindustry is differently situated from everyother form of mining. We pride ourselveson having in this State almost every class ofmetal, precious as well as base, known toAustralia. But, unlike the mining ofbase metals, gold rAining has not beenadvantaged by the war. All the basemetals that can be produced here at thepresent time have, by reason of thle war,appreciated in price by 100 up to 200 percent. The price of gold, however, has notrisen at aUl ; and, indeed, I think theHfouse will admit that indirectly the priceof gold has fallen, because the purchasingpower of the sovereign has decreased to avery considerable extent. It. is to thelasting discredit of Australia that, up tovery recent times indeed, most of thecommodities needed for the extractionof gold from the ores and for the refiningof the gold have been obtained from beyondthe confines of Australia. WVe could producemore gold per man than any other countryin the world, not even excepting SouthAfrica, and at a cheaper cost than anycountry except South Africa, which hesblack labour. But Australia has not beenobtaining the benefit of the manufecture ofthe requirements connected with the pro-duction of gold. I am glad to say that thewar haus been responsible for throwingAustralia on her own resources mn a goodmany respects. The war, in that aspect,has furnished an object lesson to goldmining and to every industry connected withgold mining. We have had to pay theprice of our past remissness, and that pricehas raised the cost of production of goldhere, through imposts paid at the Customsand through extra charges, by as muchas 15, 25, and even 35 per cent. I personally

921

[ASSEMBLY.)

would not grumble at that extra cost,nor, T believe, do those engaged in themining industry grumble at it, inasmuchas it menas that Australia is learninga lesson. But those engaged in the goldmining industry think it wrong that,whilst they are bearing a largely increasedcost of production and not receiving ahigher return from their commodity, andwhilst the mining of base metals hasbenefited by advances of from 100 to 200per cent. in prices, taxation of profitsaccruing directly from the war should beimposed on gold mining. If anyone fromthe Federal Treasurer downwards canconvince me that a tax on gold mining isjustified by reason of the yar. I shall befree to change my opinion. But thereis no one in Australia can point out, orhas pointed out-not event the FederalTreasurer himself, in introducing a certain,measuare--any justification for ant increasedtax on gold mining based on war con-siderations. The producers of gold arederiving no advantage whatever from thewar. The Federal Treasurer did say thatthe production of gold at the present timewas a very serious question, and that theproduction of even an extra ounce of goldat this juncture was a very importantmatter for Australia. He pointed outthat gold was just as essential to the winningof the war as men are. That was on theone hand. On the other hand, the FederalTreasurer said he intended to tax goldmining. Now, the gold mining industrywants taxation but also representation.The gold mining industry does not objectto equitable taxation ; no one shouldobject to equitable taxation ; but thoseengaged in gold mining contend that theydo not obtain representation equivalentto that which other industries have. Withthose other industries, I contend, goldmining is not on an equal plane in the matterof representation. On the question ofmunitions, we all know that Australiacan produce munitions, although up tothe present time we have not done so, forvarious reasons. Australia can producethe component parts of every conrunodityrequired in the production of munitions.From a technical point of view the shellsmade in Australia- have stood comparisonwith the shells made in any other part

of the world. Only one component re-quired in the manufacture of steel wasdefective. W-ere it not for that, we shouldbe producing munitions at the presenttime. Had that been the case, the ownersof mines yielding the requisite ores wouldbe deriving great benefit from the manu-facture of munitions, and would be payingcorresponding taxation. The FederalTreasurer tells the gold miner to go onproducing more largely, knowing that theindustry is not receiving any higher price forits product. I contend, the Federal Trea-surer is not consistent in his endeavour tohave as much gold produced as is possiblein Australia at the present time, when heproposes to lay further burdens on thegold mining industry. Undoubtedly, themore gold Australia can produce, thehigher will be its credit abroad. Thatcannot be gainsaid. If we could produceanother three million ounces of gold perannum, our credit at Home would be somuch better, As regards other metals,we can produce them ; but gold is abso-lutely essential to the purchase of the othermetals after they have. been produced.That is why I contend that the gold miningindustry should not be further taxed.We know there are mines in this Statewhich are now paying as much as 25 percent. extra taxation imposed on themby the Federal Government ; and I havenever heard any man, big or smnall, con-nxected with those mines, or indeed any m~an,engaged in the industry, contend thatthat taxation should not be borne. I haveheard seine men say that the tax was aa little high, and I have heard others saythat they did not think even 25 per cent.high enough. M3'y contention, however,is that if an extra 25 per cent. is got fromthie gold mining industry, it should be gotfrom other industries as well, then tilewhole of the industries will be on a fairbasis. If, liever, taxation goes anyfurther, the effect will be to burden undulyevery manl engaged in gold mining. Someof the mines are said to be making largeprofits ; but the profits are diminishingat the present time. 31oreover, thoseprofits are not being ]nade as a result,either direct or indirect, of the wvar. Thatbeing so, those profits should not bear thetaxation which the Federal Treasurer has

[15 NOVEMBER, 1916.] 923

said represents taxation on profits accruingfrom the war.

Mir. Gardiner: The cost of productionhas increased as a result of the war

Mir. FOLEY: Yes, and the industry isbeing taxed more heavily because its costof production has increased. If they aremaking big profits they should pay, butit ought to be pointed out that there aresome mines working on a very low marginand in some cases it would mean eitherclosing down the mine or just keepingit going. I have often heard it said thatif a certain set of conditions obtained,such and such a mine would be closeddown. I know the industry sufficientlywell to be able to say that I have heardpeople remark-" If you do a certainthing we will close down." But if sucha thing did happen they would take goodcare to open up again as quickly as possible.Many who uttered that threat would,however, only close down When asbolutelyforced to do so. There are, at the sametime, many mines which are being workedand the profits from which are so smallthat the extra taxation proposed willhave the effect of reducing thoseprofits to a vanishing point, especiallywhen we consider that the little revenuewhich those mines have to put by as areserve from month to month is going tobe taken from them ; then their marginwill be so small, if there be a margin at all,that it will not be possible for them tocarry on. From that point of view theincidence of the tax is unfair. Then again,not only has the manager of a mine inthis State to satisfy the Federal authorities,but he has also to satisfy his directors inother parts of the world, and those directorsare paying their share of taxation to theBritish Government, such taxation beingconsiderably higher than that which isproposed in Australia. The mines have topay State and Federal income tax, and inmany instances English income tax, whichbrings that taxation to a vecry high pointindeed. The position is, that the averageinvestor in the older countries of theworld, and especially in Great Britain,requires to see at the very least 15 percent, profit on a mine extending over aperiod of 20 years before he will investin it. We know it is hard to look at a

mine and say that i 20 years' time it willpay off the whole of the money invested init, and then show a 15 per cent, profit.There is scarcely a buiness, if it is a legi,timate business, that will do that ; at anyrate it certainly cannot be done by theaverage mine. If the Federal Governmentimquire any further proof of that theyhave only to go to the Melbourne investorsand ask them what is a fair margin toallow when they are going to invest theirmoney in a mine. We in this State do notdesire that there shall be any action takenwhich will prevent investors putting theirmoney into the mining industry. We wantall the money we can get for the industry.In Mfelbourne they desire to see a 17 per cent.profit before they will invest in ini ng.In America, what they contend is a fairthing for a mine with a life of about 15years is a profit of 25 per cent. We cannotshow that here. The companies, rich andpoor alike, will be taxed by the Stateaccording to their position, and with theirprofits at a vanishing point are they thento be taxed again by the Federal Govern-ment?7 The mines will not he able to standall the taxation, and the only result willbe that many of them will have to closedown. What will we do if the investordeclares the proposal is not good enoughfor him to embark his money in 7 Thefigures I have given to the House werefigures which were quoted as a fair thingbefore the war. We all know that manyof the moneyed men are looking for alittle extra, and when they invest capitalin mining they are not looking for morenow than they expected before the war.I want to say definitely and distinctly thatmy object in moving the motion is notto assist in any shape or form the stock-broker, or the stockjobber, but it is tohelp to work the mines in Western Aus-tralia in a legitimate way and to keepthe industry going. We all know thatthere are things happening-I do not saycriminal things-in share dealing that arenot altogether right, but I have no desireto criticise any sharedealer or stockbroker.I merely want to say that what we wantto get down to is that this big impostwhich is proposed will fall heavily on themen who are working in the mines and onthe shareholders. If we contend that the

924 [ASSEMBLY.]

margin of profit which existed before thewar started was not fair, I contend it isnow the duty of the Hfouse to do all itan to strengthen the hands of the people

in the State to prevent any additionalburden being imposed, and to uphold theindustrial status of Western Australiaby enabling it to produce as much gold asthe State possibly can. I want brieflyto refer to a mine on the Murchison whichhas been aisted by the State to reach theproducing stage. The previous Govern-ment helped the Great Fingall mine to theextent of a few thousand pounds andenabled it to become a mine from a merehole in the ground, and it is now showinga small margin of profit. That profit itis now proposed to tax, and it is going tobe taxed unfairly when we compare theposition to-day with that which existedbefore the war, and when we comparethat mine with some of the bigger goldmines in the State which are paying divi-dends. The Edna May for instance hasbeen paying dividends for the past threeyears, and the greater part of the moneywhich has come out of that mine has beenput back into it. They are going to beataxed. Is such a thing proposed in con-nection with any other industry ? Thereis no other industry in the State whichwould stand the proposals which have beensuggested by the Federal Government.The Great Fingal] mine which I have justmentioned was assisted by the Scaddan,Government and the owner.s of it are to-daydoing something to help the allied nationswin the war. If that mine were idle theywould not be able to do that, and it has tobe remembered that if it had not beean forthe war that mine would have been pro-ducing the same amount of gold, but theowners of it would have been reaping greaterdividends because at the present time thecost of producing gold has increased con-siderably, while the value of the productitself hs remained stationary. I do notthink there is any necessity to go into thequestion much further, because the wholeposition is so obvious. There is, however,one phase of the question that I woulddraw attention to. I have pointed outthat the Fingall mine, is making a littleprofit to-day. There are other mines inthe State making small or big profits.

What is going to happen in many instancesis this: if the profits that the mines aregoing to make during the continuation of thewar are going to be taxed in the manner thatthe Federal Government propose, we shallsee a reduction in the profits. The miningcompanies will reduce the grade of ore whichthey are treating and only work that classof ore which will just enable the mine topay wages and ordinary working conditions.This may not be a patriotic action toadopt, but is there anyone who will blamethem following such a course when it isremembered the burden which they areasked to carry and the fact that the valueof the product has not increased at all?If some of the mines in the State are forcedto adopt the course of reducing the valueof the ore treated, there will be somemines which will be compelled to close down.It must be pointed out too, that if someof the mines do close down it will takemany thousands of pounds to open themup again at a later date. I fear, however,that many of the mines which will closedown will remain closed for all time be-cause it will take more to open them thanit will require to keep them going evenwith a small margin of profit. There isno one who has had anything to do withmining who will gainsay that. This isnot a party question, and it is not a matterof putting the capitalist or the speculatoragainst the working man. It is a questionof a proposed tax which is consideredto be unjustifiable because on account ofthe existence of the war the profits from gold-mining have been considerably reduced.Thirdly, if they have to reduce the gradeof their ore it will mean the closing dowvn ofsome of the mines, which will never beopened up again, because it is going to takemore to do so and place them on a workingbasis than they would be worth. It willbe impossilble to get the men to go intothem because perhaps they could see betterinvestments for their money elsewhere.We want to make mining as, attractive aswe can in this State. I contend that theGovernment will bea lacking in their duty,and so will the House, if they do not bat-kup a mnotion of this sort and endeavour todo something to assist those in an industrywhich has brought this State out of ob-scurity and given it an opportunity of

taking its place amongst the foremostStates in Australia. I move the motionstanding in my name.

On motion by Mr. Harrison debateadjourned.

RETURN-RAILWVAY SECTIONAL RE-TURNS, EASTERN GOLDFIELDS.

Mr. GEN (Xalgoorlie) [5-17]: Imove-

That a return be laid upon the Table ofthe House, showoing the amount of revenuederived from railway freights on goods onthe Eastern Goldfids raiway system toall stations East of and including SouthernCross for the financial ye5aT ending .30thJune, 1916, under the following rates:(a) Class 1 ; (b) Class 2 ; (c) Class 3.

1 do not desire to take up the time of theHouse over this motion. The reason for itis obvious. I frankly admit that I desireto know the amount of revenue that wiilI beextracted, in addition to the ordinaryamount, by the added 10 per cent. forthe stations on the Eastern goldfields. Imasy be niet with the objection that it isnot possible to get this return, but I con-tend that this return can bo secured andwithout any groat difficulty. There isnot thle slightest doubt that the books ofthose different stations show a record ofthle goods4 under the different headingsarriving at these different stations. Ifthe -Minister is prepared to grant meo thisinformation it will be at the disposal of theHouse. At the present time, under therailways5 -we do not know the amount thatwve are contributing by way of freights,but under this it will be mnade a lhusi-ness proposition and we shall know pro-cisely for the information of the goldlfields.people just whiat this additional revenuewill mean. We wvill see the amount ofadditional revenue extracted from thlepeople on the goldflelds area becauseo ofthis increase. I trust, therefore, that thleMinister -will see his way clear to allowthis motion to pass.

The Minister for Works; It is the sameopv all sections of the community all overthe State.

Mr. GREEN_: I admit that that is timeposition. I am not, at this stage, trying

to prove that the Southern Cross and Cool-gardie stations, for instance, are payingmore than any other railway stations at thesame distance from the metropolis. Thegoldfields people are very anxious to havethis data and to know what they are pay-ing to date in connection with this matter.

Hon. J. D). Connolly (Honorary Minister) :They are not paying higher than the ratesexisting on the Great Southern Railway.

Mr. GREEN; I have just admitted that.I -want to know for book-keeping purposeshow we stand. I am sure -tho Ministerwould have a poor opinion of the businessmethods of, say, Bonn Bros. or Fey &Gibson or any mining company, if theywere unable to show any costs in any oftheir particular branches. It is simply abusiness proposition and fur thle informationof the people on the goldfields, who are in-terested in the matter. I am satis fied thatthe Minister will raise no objection to themotion.

Hon. J. D. CONNOLLY (HonoraryMinister, Perth) [5-201: ; hope the Housewill not agree to the motion. The mem-ber for Kalgoorlie (Mr. Green) hardly, Ithink, expects it. I find on looking at thepaer that it is an old friend of the lion.member because ho moved a similar motioninl 1913.

Mr. Green: Was that not asking for areturn and not really a mnotion ?

R-on. J. D. CONNOLLY (HonoraryMinister) : So is this asking for a return.

Mr. Green; I did not think the other wasa motion.

Hon. J. D. CON-NOLLY (HonoraryMiister) : It appears ini Mansard in theyear 1913. Then, again, a similar unotionwas. moved by the late member for Cool-gardie, adtd by the I-on. J. IV. IKirwan. inthe Upper House in 1908. It was explainedon all these occasions that in the first pliaceno good p urpose would be ssv-ed by supply-ing, the information. It would cost agreat amount of money to obtain andeven than -would not show the informationlthat the lion, member desires. In as word,the railways do not keep sectional returnsand, therefore, they would have to set upa special lot of books and go right throughthe whole thing in order to arrive at whatthe hon. member asks for.

[15 '2\ovFuBER, 1916.] M

920 [ASSEMBLY.]

Mr. Green : 'They have the records ateach station now.

Hon. J. D. CONNOLLY (HonoraryMinister): The hion. member must knowthat hoe was told by the member for Boulder(Mr. P. Collier), whoa Minister for Railways,in 1918 that tile return could not be sup-plied. On the explanation of the thenMinister for Railways the House refusedthe request, because if the returnhad been got out it would have suppliedinformation which would have been worthnothing and wvould have cost a great dealof money. We do not keep the differentearnings of the railwaEys in sectional returns,and to get thle information it would takethree or four clerks a considerable time. Ido not think thle lion. mjember desires atthis stage in thle history of the State thatwe should incur any unnecessary expen.diture. After all, it is quite unnecessaryjust because thea hon. member wants toshow w~hat the 10 per cent, amiounts toon a section of our railways. The hion.member for Boulder told the House thatthe rates were exactly the sme, I do notthink it would be any great informiationto the public to know that £5,000 is raisedby 10 per cent, over one section and £4,000raised over some other section.

Mr. Green: It would show the additionalexpenditure.

Hon. J. D). CONNOLLY (HonoraryMinister): I do not know what purposewould be served at all, it is a 10 per cent.increase.

Mr. Green : Tell me what the total wouldbe ;I would be satisfied with that.

Hon. J. D. CONNOLLY (HonoraryMinister) : I ask thle House not to agreeto the motion. It will convey nothingexcept that the lion. memnber may say tothe goldflelds people that they ]lovo beenasked to pay so many thousands of poundsmore.

Mr. E. B. Johnston: We might want thlesme information.

Honl. J. D. CONNOLLY (HonoraryMinister) : If this information is given tothe hion, member for Kalgoorlie other mem-bers may require similar information inregard to sections in their constituencies.The department is under-staffed on accountof enlistments at the present time, andtherefore, it would mean upsetting the

work because men could not be spared to.put on to a special duty of this nature-It would mean taking on special men andthis would cost even more than if ordinaryemployees were kept upon the work. Sideby side with the information which thehion. member asks for theme would alsohave to be supplied thle classification of allthe conv'eniences, and thle unattended sta-tions; and the stations which are attended,.and the particular class of trains that arerunning to make the information complete.

Mr. Green : I am net asking for that.

Hon. J. D. CONNOLLY (HonoraryMinister) : Unless all this information was.supplied the result of the carrying intoeffect of the motion of the lion, memberwould not give any valuable informationat all. It would be no use unless theiavwholelot of inforiation was supplied together.

Mr. Scaddan: The object of the lion.member is to discover howv much you areimposing upon the people who uie thatparticular branch of the railway system.

Hon. 3. D. CONNOLLY (HonoraryMinister) : It is only 10 per cent. It is theme as anywvhore else.

Mr. Seaddan: No. .Hon. T. 1). CONNOLLY (Honorary

Minister): I object to giving information,.on exactly the sme ground as 'vas givenby thle Minister for Railways in 1913.

Mr. Scaddan : It is a different proposi-tion. Thle motion then was for districtreturns.

Hen. J. D. CONNOLLY (HonoraryMinister) : Thle motion was that returns.should be laid on the Table showing theprofit or loss, by sections. It was a returnwhich would really be better and conveyMore inforiuation.

MAr. Green: It would cost more to pre-Tpare.

Mir. Collier: The information asked for-covered a period of 20 years.

Air. Seaddan: There is no trouble ingetting this particular return.

Hon. J. D. CONNOLLY (HonoraryMinistor) : That is not correct.

Mir. Scaddan : it is absolutely correct.I asked you the total amount receiv'edfrom all thle systems and you gave it tome tile following day under all these-Classes.

[15 -NOVEMBER, 1916.]92

Hon. 4T. A. CONNOLLY (HonoraryMinister) : rise lion. member knows wellthat the railway Department do not keepsectional returns. They could give in afew minutes what 10 per cent. amountsto, for they have only to take the totalof the 'whole of the railway earnings. You,cannot take it in that way at all. It ishere on record by thle late 'Minister forRailways. Listen to what Mir. Colliersaid in 1913 on a similar motion.

Mr. Scaddan: It was not a similarmotion.

Hon. J. D. CONNOLLY (HonoraryMinister): It was a similar motion. Thi'sis what Mir. Collier then said.-

I hope thle lion. member will notpress the motion for the reason that it,would be impossible to supply the in-formiation.......I hold that theinform-ation given with regard to theearnings of the Railways which appearin the annual report of the Commissionerof Railways is as full as can be reason-ably expected.

'That was thle reply, and the Ho1u.o wassatisfied with that in 1913. It is similarto a reply which was given in 1908 byanother Minister for Railways. In 1904a similar reply was given by Mir. Holman,Thu House was satisfied then,' and exactlysimilar reasons apply to-day. The lion.member (Mr. Green) .was satisfied toAccept that reply from the then Ministerfor Railways. Mr. Collier goes onl tosay:

L~,Even if thle information were avail-able I say it is impossible to take out theearnings and expenses of a section.

Then aga&in he says :jThe memnber for Kalgoorlie shouldrealise that it is quito different where wehave sepatrate s-ectionsQ, such as those tw~olines are- It, is possible in these circum-,tancas to give the informan hi;, iianking for, but it is quite hopols for himto expect the department to supply teinformation for a section of thle Yilgarnlines, and moreover, to go back forperiod of 18 years.

jTpapplies in exactly the same lway to thlexn~tion now before the House.

The information the member forK~algoorlie is asking for with regard tothe Vilgarn-Nalgoorlie line has never

appleared in any report, for the"reasenthat it would be siply impossible totake the results of the working of asection, say f rom 'Merredin to HKalgoorlie,out of a line which is 600 miles in length.I would like to point out to the lion.member that, after all, K~algoorlie is notbearing the lio-n's share of the operationsof these railways, as he thinks.Mr. Green:- A different position has

arisen now by reason of this 10 per cent.increase.

Hon. J. D). CONNOLLY (HonoraryMinister): Exactly the same argumentapplies as app lied to the motion uponwhich the member for Boulder asked theH-ouse not to agree on the score of expense.The same reason applies to-day. Theinformation desired by the hon. membercould be obtained by adding 10 per cent.Then the report goes on-

Mv]r. Green: I did not say Kalgoorlie,I said the Eastern Goldfields

Tile Minister for Railways : Nor theEastern Goldfields. The total f rom theEastern Goldfields may be larger incomparison with the total receipts fromother lines, but that is only by reason ofthle fact that the Goldfields are doing abig business. The rates from Kai-goorlie are on thle same proportion as therates elsewhere.

Mr. Green: I know that.The Minister for Railways: Then it is

not correct to sAy that the Goldfieldsare bearing the lion's share They arenot paying a higher rate than the peopleof the Grout Southern.

I do nob think thle question needs furtherlabouring. The information is not ivith.held for any reason except en the score ofeconomy. The Leader of the Oppositionknows perfectly well it is so.

Mr. Green;- If you loan me thle book8 atKalgoorlie I wilt get the information outat once and will not charge you for it.

Hon. J. D. CONNOLLY (HonoraryM1inister) : Thle hon. member woeuld getout information which would suit himielfin probably half an hour, but considurabletime must be dovoted to the weak if theinformation, 'when it is4 gos out, is to beof any value.

M1r. Scaddan: RIe does not want to kniowthe profit or loss ;he wants merely to know

W7

(ASSEMBLY]

the amount of freight paid onl goods inclasses 1, 2. and 3.

Hon. 3. D. CONNOLLY (HonoraryMinister) : I say that in the first place wewould not be warranted, and in the secondplace the return, if supplied as asked for,would convey nothing. It would sayprobably that there has been a five htundredor a five thousand pounds increase over acertain section ; but it would not proveanything unless side by side with it weregiven the other information I have men-tioned with regard to the expendituretogether with the conveniences on thatparticular line ;, them there would be someinformation of value. I ask the H-ousenet to agree to this motion, not for anydepartmental reason except on the scoreof economy. Thle information is &isiredsimply in order that ie hion. member msnybe able to say we are burdened with anextra £3,000 on our particular line, Is itfair or reas3onable that the Governmeontshould be put to a work which wouldprobably cost. hundreds of pounds mecrelythat the hion. member mlight have theopportunity of saying w~e arc burdenedwith one thousand or two thousand poundsas the case may he ? I repeat, is it fairto do this when we have a falling revenuein thle raiway department ? I do notthink the lion, member could have thoughtthe matter out when he m-oved his motion,having regard to the lparticular may inwhich lie has asked for it.

Mr. COLLIER (Boulder) [5-36]: Thlehonorary Minister has confused tiletwo questions, the question asked by themember for Kalgoorlie in 1913 and the onenow being dealt with, and he has quotedremarks of mine when replying to thle lion.member (Mr. Green) in 1913. There is awide distinction between the two ; thisis an entirely different preposition alto-gethier. In his motion of 1913 the memberfor Kalgoorlie desired to have the profitor loss on this line, and not only for thator the preceding year, but for every yearsince the inception of the system. Tohave supplied the information then desiredwould have required a staff of clerks to goright through the books of the railwaydepartment in order to ascertain not onlythe total of revenue received on that par-

ticular section but to ascertain thle profitor loss.

Ron. 4J. D. Connally (Honorary Minister):That is the position in regard to the presentmotion, though in a less degree.

Mr. COLLIER : Not at all. Thle infor-mation now desired by thle member forKalgoorlie is available at a moment'snotice, and would not involve any con-siderable amount of work ; but withI regardto the motion moved in 1913 1 very muchdoubt whiether it would have been possibleto obtain the information at all. Takethe section between Merredin and Kal-goorlie. To obtain the, profit or loss onthat long section would moan allocatingthe running expenses of every train run-ning over the section, together with therevenue received at every station on thesection, and the task would be an almostimpossible one. Cannot thle lion. memberrealise that that is net at all what the mnem-ber for Kalgoorlie is asking for on thepresent. occasion ? As a matter of facta reply given to a question by the Leaderof the Opposition yesterday at a day'snotice demonstrates that this informationis available

Ron. J. D. Connolly (Honorary Minister):Whiat question was that?

Mr. COLLIER: It is given on thle Votesand Proceedings of yesterday. Thle Loaderof the Opposition asked-

'What was th6 total revenue earnedby the Railway department for the year1h 15-16ifrom goods classed as 1, 2, and 3.

That is the total revenue earned for thewhole system.

The Premnier: That is an entirely differentdifferent matter.

Mr. COLLIER: It is not, except thatthis motion involves less work. The Leaderof thle Opposition wanted informationcovering the whole of thle railway system.

Hon. J. D. Cennolly (Honorary Minister):But you know that they do not keep sec-tional books.

Mr. COLLIER: The member for Kal-goorlie asks only to be supplied with thesame information covering goods classed1, 2, and 3 over a particular sect ion of thissystem, that is the eastern railway system.The fact that the information was suppliedyesterday demonstrates that it is avail-able.

[15 N~vmBER, 1916.] 2

Tile Premier: It is not information of thesame character.

Mr. COLLIER: It is. except that thleone covers the whole system and the otheronly a section. I say that this informationis available at a moment's notice in thebooks of the department ; but it is entirelyseparate and distinct from the informationsought to be had in the motion of 1913,and which the hon. Minister, by quotingfrom Hanard, would have us believe to bethe same thing.

Hon. J. D). Connolly (Honorary Minister):It is exactly the same thling as this, onlylarger.

Air. COLLIER: The honorary Ministerwill surely see this distinction, that the 1913motion asked for profit or loss, while thepresent motion asks only for currentrevenue. One involved going through thebooks right back to the inception of thesystem. Take Kalgoorlie, it would havebeen an impossible task to have got outthe information for even one year. Thereason why I opposed that motion was thatthe member desired it to cover the wholeof the system since the inception of thelines. The department, does not keep) anybooks giving information which will showthe profit or loss over any particular sectionof the railways If I were to ask forthe profit or loss on the section betweenArm-adale and Pinijarrah the railway de-partment could not give it to me, for thereason Ithat it is impossible to allocate theexpense of through trains to Bunburyrunning over the section or of the revenueearned by such trains. But if I ask for areturn shlowing the amnount received forthe carriae of goods that informationwould be available at once.

Hon. J. D. Connolly (Honorary Minister):-That is what this motion asks for, theearnings on a certain section.

Mr. COLLIER: And I am endeavouringto point out that to ask for the earningson a section is a different proposition fromasking for profit or loss.

Hon. J. D. Connolly (Honorary Minister)But you know that books are not kept forany section. ;1 1 'iMr. COLLIER. Hfow was the informationavailable to be supplied to the Leader ofthe Opposition yesterday?1

The Premier: That was for the whole ofthe railways.

Mr. COLLIER: If they have returnsf rem the different stations they must havethe details ;otherwise they could not givethe totals.

Hon. J. D). Connolly (Honorary Minister):Does not some of the revenue rece ived inPerth go to K~algoorlie?

Mr. COLLIER-: The hon. member hasasked for a return of the revenue earnedat these particular stations. If it does notgive him all tile information he desires, somuch the worse for him. He has asked forthe revenue earned on this particular sec-tion for the carriage of a certain clams ofgoods,

The Attorney General: I asked for asimilar return to this last year and thepresent Leader of the Opposition then ex-plained how difficult it was to give it toMe.

Mr. COLLIER: If you look up the ques-tion you will 13nd that it was the same thingas the hon. Minister has just told us the1913 return was.

Hon. J. D). Connolly : (Honorary Minister)The 1913 return was the same as this, onlylarger.

Mir. COLLIER : Not only is it larger,but it is quite a different proposition. Thehon. member asked that a return be laidupon the table of the House showing theprofit or loss. Anyone reading thlemotion of 1913 will at once realise that thehon. member's motion was entirely differentfrom the one he is now moving. He thenasked for a return showing the profit or losson all sections, including the profit or tosson all branch or spur railways throughoutthe State. It is positively absurd for thlehon. Minister to claim that that motionis on all fours with thle one now before theHouse and to quote in reply the legitimateobjection which did lie a gainst thle request.for the return in 1913.

Hon. J1. D). Connolly (Honorary Minister):He asks for the whole of the earnings.This asked for only the three classes.

,%r. Scaddan: You gave them inseparate classes yesterday.

Hon. J. D). Connolly (Honorary 'Minister):B3ut it would be necessary to dissect thewhole of the earnings to get the clsses.

929

[ASSE-MBLY.]

Mr. COLLTER: No. The member forKalgoorlie asked for the profit or loss.That is not asking for the earnings. Theinformation concerning the earnings canbe supplied. I have never known of asimilar request being denied in the House.For the past 10 years efforts have beenmade by members to obtain information asto sectional profits or loss. The railwayauthorities said they did not keep theseparate returns, and therefore it wouldbe impossible to supply the information.But this is a different proposition altogether,and a request for information of thischaracter has not previously been refused,It is simply asking for a return on allfours with the request made yesterdayby the loader of the Opposition and accededto. I hope the Minister will not persistin his opposition to a reasonable requestfor information which can be readilysupplied.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS (Hon.W. J. George-Murray-Wellington) [5-47]:1 hope the motion will not be pressed.The amount of labour which will be entailedon the staff of the Working Railways toprepare this return will be exceedinglygreat. The information can be got, butit is a question of expense and time. M~anyyears ago, when I was Commissioner forRailways. Mr. Teesdeale Smith, then amember of the House, succeeded in gettinga motion passed for a return, and to thebest of my memory four or five yearselapsed before that return was completed.

Mr. Green:- You do not suggest that thiswill take all that time.

Thb MINISTER FOR WORKS: No.But I wish to show the danger. Memnbersare apt to ask for information, thinkingthat it can be easily supplied, whereas itoften happens that the supplying of thatinformation is not so simple. The infor-mation required in this instance can besecured, but how long it will take to getit it is impossible for anyone to say. Ishould say it might take two or three menthree months to get out the return.

Mr. Seaaddan: An almost similar questionwas answered in 24 hours.

The IMIISTER FOR WORKS:- Thehon. member who guff awed does not knowanything at all about it. I do. Anotherthing: I cannot see that this return will

give the hon. member any more informationthan he has at the present time. There isone way by which he might secure a satis-factory basis of the information required.It might be very much easier to give himthe tonnage of the different classes thathave been received, because that could besecured. But to give him the earningswould mean extracting from practicallyevery station return sent along. I do notthink the hon. member would wish to putthe State to such an expense. The hon.member is desirous of showing the gold-fields population what this 10 per cent.means to them.

Mr. Green : That is a legitimate desire,The MINISTER FOR WVORKS: I amn

not su ggestig that it is not. He desires.to show that as far as they are concerned it,means so many thousands of pounds moreto paiy. If he thinks it is of sufficientlygreat importance he will press his motion.but I ask him to remember that in anexecutive administration like the RailwayDepartment, with a staff reduced owing tothe conditions of war, and without themachinery to easily ascertain what hedesires, it is' not advisable to press themotion for a return of this sort, in fac:of the Commissioner's recommendation.The hon. member is within his rights, butis the return he asks for worth all thetrouble and expense involved 1

Mir. Green: Do you mean to tell me thatthe inward revenue from Perth to K~al-goorlie could not be obtained within a4few hours?

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Yes.But when it comes to analyses of thedifferent classes, it means an examinationof the return of every station sending goodsto Kalgoorlie. To carry it out accuratelywould mean that every station return wouldhave to be analysed. To carry it outpractically, I suppose returns of the stuffsent from Fremantle to Perth would suithis purposes. But it means an examinationof the accounts of every station rightup the line.

Mr. Seaddan: No.The MINISTER FOR WORKS: But

it does I know what this means. I amthe only member of the House who hasoccupied the position of Commissioner ofRailways, and as a workin~g Connissioner

[15 NOVEMBER, 1916]93

lor five years, so I should know somethingabout it.

Mr. Scaddan:- What do you mean bythat ? Do you infer that the other Com-missioners do not work?7

The MfINISTER FOR WORKS: No.I mean that hon. members, althoughperhaps good workers in their own par-titular lines, have not been called upon bya grateful country to Occupy the importantposition of Commissioner of Railways.The hon. member occupied the position ofPremier of the State for 44 years. moreor less badly. He did not learn much.He has not learnt much yet, not evenhow to behave himself.

Mr. Scaddan: Take the halo off yourhead.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Iknow my subject and I do not want thehon. member's insolent reminders. Letthe hon. member keep himself where Naturehas given him special abilities, namely,barracking on the football ground, and hewill be all right.

Air, SPEAKER: Order!The MINISTER FOR WORKS: I am

glad you have called him to order ; herequires it.

Mr. SPEAKER: I call you both toorder.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: I hopethe member for Kalgoorlie will not insistupon this motion. There is a way by whichho can get what he requires in regard totonnage. That may be readily prepared.

Mr. Angwin: Of what good is the ton-nage ?

The ML WSTER FOR WORKS: Fromthe tonnage he can form his average toget out the amount he wants. I can showthe hon. member how to do it.

Mr. SCADDAX (Brownhill-Ivanhoe)[5-564): I rise with some temerity todiscuss this question in view of havingbeen preceded by the only railway authorityin the House or in 'Western Australia, theone man who has ever occupied the positionof working Commissioner of Railways,whatever that may mean.

The Minister for Works: The onemember.

Mr. SCADDAX: The hon. memberemphasised the fact that he had occupiedthe position of Commissioner of lRailways.

and working Commissioner at that. Iinfer he meant that no other Cormisionerhad worked. It is, as I say, with diffidencethat I follow the only railway expert inthe House or in Western Australia on thisquestion. As a matter of fact this ismerely a question of common businessmethods, and I am surprised that ourfriends opposite, who have so frequentlyclaimed that they were going to insist onproper business methods being applied toGovernment departments, are found soearly in their career refusing informationthat ought to be available at a moment'snotice if the work of the department werecarried on in a businesslike manner. Ashas been already explained, I yesterdayasked the Acting 'Minister for Railwaysthe following quesbion:

1, What was the total revenue earnedby the Railway Department for the year1915-1916 from goods classed as 1, 2,and 3 ? 2, What is the estimated addi-tional revenue that will be earned bythe increase of 10 per cent. on theseclasses ? 3, Would it not be moreequitable to apply any such increaseon a sliding scale ? 4, Are the followingincluded in Classes 1, 2, and 3, to whichsuch increases apply :-(a) articles of food,such as dairy produce, fish, bacons,harns, beef, pressed pork, groceries, cannedfruits, and tinned milk ; (b) agriculturalmachinery ; (a) mining machinery, otherthan second hand ; (d) mining explosivesand chemicals such as cyanide ; (e) build-ing material and galvanised iron ; (f) oils,including kerosene ?The reply given ws-

1, £373,267. 2, £37,326 per annum.3, As the rates are calculated on a slidingscale, the percentage increase is equitable-for example, Class 1, 100 miles, therate is £2 4s., whilst for 400 miles, therate is £0 9s. Id., and not £8 16s., whichwill be a proportionate increase. 4,(a) Fish, beef, and fruit in truck loadsare carried at less than Classes 1, 2, and3. Quantities under truck loads, incomnmon with the other articles men-tioned, come under the increased rate.(b) Yes. (c) Mining machinery, in truckloads, is carried at Class " C," which isa lower rate than 1, 2, and 3. The in-crease would therefore only apply to

931

LAS SEMBLY.]

smaller quantities. (d) Yes. (e) Build-ing material, such as bricks, stone, lime,cement, hardwood, are carried at thelower special class rates when in truckloads: galvanised iron, yes. (f) Yes.

Tt is thus seen that at a moment's noticethe department were able to give me,through the Minister, the information Idesired.

Hon. J. D. Connolly ( Honorary Mfinister):But one is a sectional return. This isnot the same.

Mr. SCADDAN: I will come to that.Therefore we have the admission that theearnings of Classes 1, 2, and 3 goods in ourrailway system are kept separate fromnearnings of other classes of goods. So,all the member need have done was to askthe question " How much of the total of£373,257 earned from Classes 1, 2, and 3was earned on the railway system betweenSouthern Cross and the railway toLeonora ?'

Hon. J. D. Connolly (Honorary Minister):Why did not you advise him to do it ?

AD. SCADDAN: He did not seek myadvice. We have had the statement thatthe member for Boulder, when Ministerfor Railways, refused information of asimilar nature. It is not necessary to readout the information then sought to showthat it was of an entirely different nature.It wats a motion asking the department tosupply information of an intricate characterwhich could have been supplied whensectional returns were kept, eventuallythe department decided not to keep thosesectional returns, with the result that theycould not have been supplied without thetremendous work which would have beennecessary to go back over the periodcovered by the motion. So the pointsare entirely different. The AttorneyGeneral, by interjection, mentioned thatsimilar information was required by himlast session, and that on that occasion thehon. member was asked not to press hismotion because of the difficulty that wouldbe encountered in supplying the information.I propose to read what I told the House onthat occasion and also to point out to thehon. member how different was the in-formation he was then seeking and toprove by it that the Railway Departmentcan, without difficulty, supply the in-

formation asked for by the member forKalgoorhie, whereas it would have haddifficulty in supplying the informationasked for by the member for Canning.The hon. member's motion was-

That a return be laid upon the Tableof the House showing (a) the numberof tons of Collie coal brought fromstations south of Gosnells to Midlandor passing through Midland Junction toany ktation beyond M1idland (all lines)during twelve months ended 30th June,1915 ; (b) the number of tons of ra-way sleepers and timber brought fromstations south of Gosnells to Midlandor passing through Mlidland Junctionto any station beyond Midland (alllines) during twelve months ended 30thJune, 1915 ; (c) the number of tons ofall other freights brought from stations.south of Gosnells to Midland or pass-ing through Midland Junction to anystation beyond Midland (all lines) duringtwelve months ended 30th June, 1915;

Up to that point the information couldhave been supplied without difficulty.But the bon. member went on to ask-

(d) the total cost of hauling the totaltonnage referred to in paragraph (a)10 miles during the said period ; (o) thetotal cost of hauling the total tonnagereferred to in paragraph (b) 10 milesduring the said period ; (f) the totalcost of hauling the total tonnage referredto in paragraph (c) 10 miles duringthe said period.

That was the hon. member's motion.This is what I said in reply-

I want to ask the hon. member whomoved this motion to agree to its with-drawal. I have made inquiries fromthe Commissioner of Railways in regardto it, and have been informed that itwill be almost impossible to obtainaccurately the information which thebion. member desires. It would also berather expensive to comply with thehon. member's request, because of thelimited staff the Commissioner has avail.able, and moreover, the Commissionersuggests that to comply with the requestwould serve no purpose, because theparticulars which would be furnishedwould not be accurate, and under thecircumstances it would not be desirable

115 NOVEMBER, 1916.]93

to attempt to comply with the request.Further, to supply the information wouldrequire the 'whole of t)1e large recordsbeing turned up for the 12 months,because of the fact that the departmenthas been carrying a huge quantity ofmaterial for the Trans-Australian rail-way by different routes, and that hasbeen done merely to suit the depart-ment's own convenience. The Com-missioner, however, will supply the hon.member with any information he hasat his disposal.

What does that prove?The Attorney General : Read what the

member for Canning further said.

Mr. SCAIDDA-N: I like to be fair, andI will read it-

As I understand that may motion, ifcarried, will cause some inconvenienceto the department, and that, whenconvenient, the figures will be madeavailable, I will, by leave, withdrawit.Mr. Green: The motion of the member

for Canning was obviously absurd.

Mr. SCADDAN: As a matter of fact,the Conimissioner is not desirous of supply-ing the information new asked for anymore than ho was desirous of supplyingthe information asked for on tile occasionI have quoted- I told the House whattile Conmnissioner told me, because theCommissioner operates the railways underan Act of Parliament and must be allowedto operate them according to his judgment.The Commissioner did not deny that hecould supply the information, and I didnot deny it on his behalf, but said-

- to supply the informationwould require the whole of the largerecords being turned up far the 12 months,because of the fact that the departmenthas been carrying a large quantity ofmaterial for the Trans-Australian rail-way by different routes, and that hasbeen done merely to suit the department'sown convenience-

The proposition put forward by the memberfor Kalgoorlie is comparatively simple,end does not demand the expenditure ofmuch time and money.

The Premier: The Commissioner saysso. Why do you not histen?7

Mir. SCADDAN:. All the informationasked for by the member for Kalgoorliecan be supplied from the records whichthe department must keep. The reportof the Commissioner of Railways, whichhas been distributed to-day, is, afterall, only an analysis of the work of thedepartment. That report gives the variousclasses of goods consigned to and fromeach station, and the earnings of eachstation. Indeed, the Commissioner's re-port discloses the losses on certain railways.IU even supplies the balance of profit andloss in respect of spur lines to which districtrates apply. If the Commissioner has allthis information available, if he could inone day tell me the total amount of revenueearned under various classes on the entiresystem, surely lie could in two or threedays supply the information desired by thlemember for Kalgoorlie,

Hen. J. D). Cennolly (Honorary Minister):It is only a question of expense.

The Minister for Works: It would meanthe analysis of ever 20,000 returns,

Mr. SCAlYDAIN: Will the Minister forWorks explain how the Commissioner couldso expeditiously give the information whichI sought, if lie had to analyse 20,000 re-turns ?

Hen. 4. D. Connolly (Honorary Minister):Your questions referred to the whole rail-way system.

M~r. SCAJYDAN : May I ask the HonoraryMinister how that total was obtained ifnot from bringing into one central bookthe returns from the different sections?

Mir. Nairn: But not sectional returns.Mir. SCADDAN: Let me tell the hion.

member interjecting that the differencebetween sectional returns and sectionalprofit and loss accounts is a very great one.The two things represent entirely differentpropositions. The lion, member will con-tinue to confuse sectional returns withsectional profit and loss accounts. TheCommissioner of Railways keeps booksshowing where every penny of his revenueis earned. He must do that.

Mr. Smith : If the hon. mnember is givenaccess to the books, will he extract theinformation for himself f

Hon. J. D. Connolly (Honorary Minister):If the member for Kalgoorlie will go to the

033

[ASSEM1BLY.]

Commnissioner, that officer will give allinformation hie can to thle lion. member.

Mr. SCADDAN: If the Honorary Ministerwill agree to that course, the mnember forKalgoorlie can get the information in halfan hour.

Hon, J. :1. Connolly (Honorary Minister):If thle information asked for by the motioncan be obtained so easily, the member forKalgoorlie can go down to the railwayoffices in the morning, when I will under-take the Conmnissioner will give him theinformation.

Air. SCNDDAN: The Honorary Ministerhimself is confusing sectional returns onl aprofit and loss basis with sectional records,which must be kept for the business of thedepartment. The department must keel)returns of earnings by different sections,even from different stations.

The Premier. Th e motion is as to goodsconsigned to the goldfields from the wholesystem. That means that the returnsfrom every station throughout the railwaysystem would have to be analyeed.

Mr. SCAUDAN:. No. The informationsupplied in reply to my question was avail-able, because every district keeps a recordof its earnings fromx different points, whichare eventually concentrated in one book.In the abseince of such a system, how couldthe Commissioner advise his Mlinister withregard to the increasing or decreasing offreights ? How does the Commissionoradvise as to increase or decrease of faresand freights, unless it is because lie hasat hand information showing the earningsof thle different sections, and because hieknows, according to the cost of mileagewhether the traffic pays on the rates ob-taining 7 floes thle Comm-issioner run the-risk of disorganising the whole railwaysystem by a reduction of mnileage run, suchas was recently decided upon, withoutfirst taking such details into account ? Ibelieve that 'Minister and Comimissioneralike view the motion of the member forKalgoorlie as. expressing a desire for thesectional returns which certain membershave demanded for years past, but whichmeant costly expenditure and, after all, didnot yield reliable information. I think thelast Commlissioner of Railways abelishc dthose returns.

The Minister for Works: Yes. Theywere of no use to anybody.

Mr. SCADDAN: But this motion is anentirely different lpropositien. Suppose theMinister for Railway's called into his officethe Commissioner of Railways and said tohim, " I amn of opinion that the traffic be-tween Southern Cross and Malcolm andintermediate stations does not warrant thepresent train service." Then the Com-mnissioner would immediately refer to hisreturns of passengers and goods carriedand earnings and cost of running for thatsection, and would say to the Ministereither " You are right," or " You arewrong," Is it not worth the cost of callingupon the Commissioner to supply to thlepublic information which the Ministerwould be able to obtain from thle Com-mnissioner to-morrow ? The member for'Kalgoorlie represents a section of the com-munity who have to carry the increase of10 per cent., and therefore, hie is entitledto know hew the 1.0 per cent. increase willbear on his constitutents. Is he to berefused the information on the ground thatit is going to cost thirty shillings for clericallabour ?

Thle Premier: Thirty shillings ? Absurd.The 5ader of tho Opposition knows nothingof the subject.

M1r. SCADDAN : I quoted a figure whichI thought the Premier would appreciate.Shnll I say, a million pounds ? TilePremier denies the right of the public toget this information.

The Prem-ier:- You yourself on anotheroccasion refused to snplply such inform-atien.

Mr. SCADDAiN: I wish the Premnierwould rend the three motions. The MinisteradiniLstering the Railway Departmentought to be able to furnish this inform-ation for the purpose of satisfying thepublic that the 10 per cent. increase is afair one. But the lion. gentleman sayshie cannot toil us the reason for the in-crease. What proportion of that extraburden is going to be laid on people resi-denlt in distant portions of the State ? Weare not told. All we are told is that wecannot have the information. I contendit is right and just that the inform-ation should be supp lied, even if it costs athousand pounds to collect. I do not

[15 NoVEIMER, 1916.]93

think, after all, that it will cost so much tocollect, because it is information which theCommissioner may expect the MUinister torequire from him at any moment. Surelya member representing a section of thecommunity who are to bear the burden isentitled to have this information, even atthe cost of a fow pounds.

Sitting su.&pended from 6-12 to 7-30 p~m.

Resolved: that motions be continued.Thle ATTORNEY GENERAL (Hon. R.

T. Robinson-Canning) [7 -34] : I was verymuch astonished to hear the remarks of theleader of the Opposition on this subjectbecause I generally listen to him as a manof much experience whose argwunts carryweight With members, but when I find heuses the same arguments against a motionI nmade last year for an identical return,as to why the return should now be pre-sented to Parliament, then I shall losefaith in anything that may come from himnin thle future. Last year I asked for areturn of the number of tons of railwaysleepers and coal which were carried on theSouth-Western Railway across to MidlandJunction.

Mr. Bolton: And other things.Mr. Scaddan: And thle other things were

important.The ATTORNEY GENERAL: They

were not important.Mr. Scaddan: Then why did you ask for

them ?The ATTORNEY GENERAL: The

only puzzling question I asked, and it waspuzzling to no one except the then Ministerfor Rail-ways, was in regard to the con-tinual conveyance of these goods acrossthe gap I have referred to, to MidlandJunction, and I wanted to know the costof it. What I desired to find out waswhether there was any loss being incurredby the conveyance of those goods overthe additional 10 miles of country involvedby carrying themi around via Perth toMidland Junction, and if there was a loss,what that loss was. It was a simple ques-tion to answer. The then Minister forRailways told me that it would be difficultto obtain such information and that itcould hardly be given accurately with thelimited staff available in the Commissioner's

office. The Commissioner I was furthertold would have difficulty in furnishingthis return and I was asked to dolor mymotion and to go to the Commnissioner'soffice myself and I would be suppliedwith thle information,

Mr. Scaddan:- Did you go?The ATTORNEY GENERAL: When

a Minister .of the standing of the memberfor Brownhill Ivanhoe (Mir. Scaddan) madethat statement, I replied that as T under-stood that my motion would cause in-convenience to the department I wouldwithdraw it.

Mr. Taylor: You were younger then inpolitics.

The ATTORNEY GENERAL: I was noyounger then than I am now ; I may havebeen a hundred and the argument thatwould convince me then woild carry thesame weight with me now. I have quotedwhat the then Minister for Railwaya said.I am advised now by the present Ministerfor Railways that the earnings of thedifferent sections of the railways are notkept separately, and to got the informationrequired would mean the employment ofsome clerks for some time to extract itfrom the general returns, and if that weredone other necessary work would have tostand by and the department would beinconvenienced. Further, if the motionbe agreed to, unless the sectional returnsand the expenditure involved in suchsections be given, tile return will be oflittle value. 'Those words are almostidentical with the advice that was givenby the Commissioner of Railways to thethen Minister for Railways.

Mr. Scaddan: It is a stock argument hieuses when he does not want to be bothered.

The ATTORNEY GENLERAL : Ravinghad four and a-half years' experience withthe Commissioner, if it was good enoughfor the then Minister for Railways to studythe Commissioner and back him up, withonly a few months experience of the Com-.missioner, I am not going to fal] short ofmy duty. I am here to back up the Com-missioner and I will raise ray voice againstthe Opposition who desire to get suchinformation from the Railway Department,to cause inconvenience for no possiblepurpose whatever. If the member forKalgoorlie will go to tbe Commissioner's

93.5

[A.SSEMBLY.]

office the boo1~s and figures; will he placedat his disposal, and as we know-lhe is suchan expert in figures lie, no doubt, will beable to extract the information hie requiresfrom the fies of the department. Forthose reasons 1 oppose the motion, and Iask hon. members to do similarly.

Qustion put and negatived.

PAPERS-RAILWAY CARRIAGEOF MAILS.

Mr. HICKMOTI (Pingetly) L17.39]: 1-move-

That all papers in connection with thecarriage of mails by the Railway Depart-ment be laid on ste Table of the House.

ily object is obvious. At the present timein my electorate there are two railways thatdo not carry mails. The Federal Govern-ment say that the charge imposed by theState Government is too high, namely£7 10s. per mile. That in round figures onthe Brook ton- Corrigi n line runs to some-thing like £400 and on the Villiminaing-Kon-dinin line it would amount to between £500and £600 per annum. By not having themails carried on the railways, the people inthose districts are subjected to great incon-venience and in a number of eases they areg-etting their mails by parcels post, whichcauses an expense by reason of the fact thatthey have to get someone to collect andcarry themn. The object of the motion is toascertain whether the cost of the carriageof mails by this State cannot be reduced sothat people living in distant centres can begranted this convenience. At the presenttime, a mail is carried by vehicle to Pin-gelly out east and if the people do not gettheir mail by parcels post along the Brook-ton-Corrigin line, they have to go 15 or 16miles to get their wveekly niail, whereas if itwere carried by train, not only would thesepeople he benefited to a great extent, buttile State would derive some revenue, andwe require revenue badly enough. The mailscould he carried at a reduced cost, and myobject is to ascertain why the Railway De-partment are not assisting the out-hacksettlets in this direction.

Mr. Carpenter: Do you want this infor-mation in connection with all the railways?You ought to limit it to some extent.

Mr. IIICFMOTT: 1 only desire the iii-formation in regard to those railways notcarrying mails at the present time.

Bon. J. D). CONNOLLY (Honorary Alin-ister-Perlb) [7.43]: I do not desire tooppose the motion for the same reason that1 opposed the last motion. This motiondoes not involve any expense but there areother questions involved in it. The Commis-sioner of Railways writes to me to-day inrespect to this letter-

1 wish to point out that at the presenttime the matter of a new agreement withthe Federal Government in connectionwith the carriage of mails is to go beforethe Interstate Commission for decisinitvery shortly, the States and the Postmas-ter General having failed to come to anagreement as to the rights and conditions.The Victorian Railway Commissionersare acting for all the States and are pre-paring our ease- lIt will be highly unde-sitrabtle for the papers to be produneedwhile the matter is sub judice.

The Commissioner goes on to say that ifMr. Hickmnott indicates the information herequires it will he supplied to him.

Mr. Taylor: Hle and the member for Kni-goorlie can go down to the Railway Depart-mnent together.

li-on. J. D. CO'NNOLLY (Honorary Min-ister) : If the lion. member will only comn-muniente with ine I will get the informationfor him. Trhere is no objection to supply-ing the information but it is not desirablethat tile papers should he p)rodulced. Whiat-ever fault there is it does not lie with tieState, which has tried to meet the Post-master General's Department, hut thetrouble lies with the Commonwealth Gov-eilnmeat.

'lie 'Minister for WSoik, : It has been thatfor the last 16 years.

Hfon. J. D, CONNOLfLY (Honorary Minis-ter) :That is so. If the lion. member willindicate to me any i v articular informationthat lie reqluires, if we can without prejudice.giv~e it to him, it wvill be given.

'Mr. E. B3. JOHNSTON (Williams-Nar-rogin) [7.45]: 1 wish to back up the re-marks of the lion, member for Ping-elly(Mr. Hickmott) so far as they relate to the-arriage of mails on the new lines, and par-

[J5 NOVEMBER, 1916.] 937

tituflarly the Yilliiaing-Kondinin line.There is a large number of settlers out thereand there is at p)resent one train per weekeach way. It is one of the few uistriets wherethe area% under crop has increased duringtile past season. The hon. member did goodService in voicing the grievance of thesepeople, who see the train come in wveek afterweek but find it (does not carry any mails.I[ would remind tie Honorary Minister andthe Commissioner that the railways of West-emu Australia are owned by the people of tileState. Surely the Postal Department andthe Stale Railway Department could meethalf-way and steps be taken to thle end thatthese people shall no longer be subject totheir present inconveniences.

lon. J. 1). Connolly (Honorary 'Minis-iecr) :'flier h]ate offered in some instancesto ctonvey tine mails for nothing, and theyare in fact carrying them for nothing.

Ailr. E. B. JOHINSTON: I should bepleasedl if the kiiniater would give an assur-nnee cc lat this course would he pursued asrcu.ards flic Yilliniining -Iondinin line.Tie Hlonoraryv Minister's remark sh ows thatthe Jltway tiepartmcnt are prepared tonegotiate in a sympathetic amnner wvith theFederal authorities with a view to Secu ringethlese eonveienees to the people.

Mr. 11 ICKM1OTT (Pingelly-in reply)[7.181: It we could get the informationwhich the Honorary )Minister has told uts wcecall get. [ am satisfied. I only wrant the in-fornmati(on, and if I can get that I am pre-pared to Witlhdraw thle mnotion.

Motion hr leave withdrawn.

MOTION-FLAT RATE FOR CHAFF.

Order of the Day rostponed.

Order of the Day read for further con-sideration of the motion moved by Ar.Thomson (Katunninw). -Thm this House isof opiinion that the principle of a flat ratefor chaff and other produce as laid clown bytile Industries Assistance Board is not con-sistent with justice, and strongly recom-mends that for produce supplied to settlerstinder the Act,, the market rates ruling atthe time of purchase be charged."

[35)

Bon. J. D3. CONNOLLY (Honorary Min-ister-i'erii) [7.5U] : I move-

Tat the Order of the Day be post-pulled.

Alr. Seadelar: W'hy do you not dischargeit-?

Miotion put and a division taken, withtile following result:-

Ayes .. .. .. .. 24Noes . .. . .. 12

Majority for 12

AYES.

Mr.

Mrt.

Mr.Mr.Mr.Mi r.Mr.Mr.

Mr.

Mr.

Mr.

M.Mr

,11:Mt

AllenButcherCon nolIlyCunniogheamGardine,GeorgeGriffith.liarawielHarrisonLI Ickmo ItHodson

11 r.31 r.Mr.3! r.Mr.Mr.Mr.Air.Mr.MIr.31 r.

;.It Jonston3Lefroy

NiullanyNulnsleNairnPies soRobinsonSmithS. StubbinVeryardWanibrogh

F. WilsonMAle

(Tells,.)

NOES.AngwinCarpet, eretc stonCollierFoleyGreenW.. Di. Johnson

Motion thlus passed;postponed.

31 r.NMr.Ai r.Mr..11r.

cadd anTaylorUaderwoodWalkerBolton

(Teller.)

Order of the Day

:IOTIjON-TRUST FUNDS ADMINIS-T RATION, SELECT COMLMITTEE TOINQUIRE.

Order of the Day read for further con-sideration of tile motion moved by '.%r.Smith, "That a select committee bie apl-pointed to inquire into the administrationof trost funds, real estate, and personalproperty controlled or managed by anyo~licer of the Supreme Court and Curator ofIntestate Estates, including estates whichiitav have been wound up during the past10 Years."

Mr. SPEAKER: The question is thatthe motion be agreed to. Before tile voteis taikexi I wish to say that I understand

938 [ASSEMBLY.]

from the Minister for Worksmembers are of opinion thatfor the adjournment of th4question before the HouseDay No. 2, and the vote isthe motion which I have reaI hope hon. members ndertion.

Mr. Carpenter: How doefo r Works know how they

Mr. Hudson: He shouldbusiness.

Mr. SPEAKER: He isSO.

Mr. Hudson: He is notanyhow.

Mr. SPEAKER: Order!for Works is quite entitlequestion if he is in error bin

Mr. Bolton: He is alwaysniever anything else.

AMr. Hudson: What are wMr. Bolton: I have sirn

sheet, so never mind.Question put and division

following result:-AyesNoes.

Majority for

Mr.M r.Mr.Mr.Mr.Mr.Mi..Mr.Mr.

Mr1.Mr.Mr.Mr.311.Mr.Mr.Mr.

Anse.Angwl aButcherConniollyGeorgeGr1ffifthsHlckmnottE.. B. TohnatonLetroyNairn,

NOES.

CarpenterChessonCollierCurninghamFoleyoreHarrisonHudson

Mt.Mr.Mr.Mr.Mr.Mr.Mr.Mr.My.

Mr.V.r.161r.Mr.Mr.Mr.Mr.

Question thus passed.Ballot taken, and the follo

a select committee, namely:cher, Heitmnn, Taylor, Wilmover (Mr. Smith), with po

that some lion.they are votinge debate. Thes Order of theto be taken on

persons and papers, to sit on days overwhich the House stands adjourned, and toreport on 6th December.

d to the House. MOTION-BILLS INVOLVING EXPEN-stand the posi- DITURE.

Proposed _New Standing Order.~s the Minister Debate resumed from the 81h Novemberare v'oting? on thie motion moved by Mr. Carpenter-mind his own ',I, That in the opinion of this House no

Bill should be introduced or considered if itprobably doing contains any provision which is an evasion

a .scholastrof Standing Order No. 3S7. 2, That thea sc~oomaser, Standing Orders Committee be requested to

The initer prepare a newv Standing Order in accord-The initerance with the foregoing' resolutions."d to raise the Mr. GARDINER (Irwin) [8.14]: I beg

inserr ;li to move an amendment-in rrr;heis That all the words after "1that" be struck

e voting for? out and the following inserted in lieu:-edteteller',s "The Standing Orders Committee be re-ied thequested to frame for the consideration of

the House an amendment of the Standingtaken, with the Orders to provide that Bills involving the

expenditure of public moneys shall onlyis be introduced by a Minister of the Crown."15 1 think there is a desire in the House to,

3 as far as possible, protect the privileges ofthe House, and see that when it comes tomoney matters Ministers alone shall be re-

P5555. sponsible. Under these circumstances I thinkRobinson the amendment will meet the views of theSmilth lion, member for Fremantle (Mr. Carpenter)S. Stubb, and other hon. members. My only desire isTaylorVeryard to protect the House and give to it the assur-Wanabrougb arnce which I think the lion, member fried toF. Wilson give in his motion.Hardwlcc

(Teller.) Mr. WALKER (Kanowna) (8. 16] : Ido not think it is necessary to speak atany length on the subject. Had it not been

W. D. Jobnson for the innovation under which the Govern-mullany ment handed to a private member what isMunSle purely a prerogative of the Crown, thereSeaddanUnderwood would not have been any question as to whatWalker the Standing Orders mean, and what theBlolton constitutional practice of this and all other

(Teller.) Parliaments in the British Empire has beenever since constitutional government has ob-

wing appointed tained. I do not think the question requires-Messrs. But- argument, because when the innovation waslmott, with the made it was under a sort of apology, andwer to call for nobody seriously defended the course taken.

[1.5 NOVEMBER, 1910.]

It was a clear evasion of a governmental re-sponsibility. It was not defended on con-stitutional principles, but was defendedmerely to meet the emergency. I hope weshaU] stick to our principles and practices,and to the constitutional law that has hither-to prevailed. I trust the amendmnent wilt be.carried.

The ATTORNEY GENERAL (Hon. R. T.Robinson-Canning) [8.18] : I will supportthe amendment. The original motion did nottouch the question that the amendment nowprovides for. In a measure the amendmentjprovides for what the member for Fremantle(Mfr. Carpenter) tried to say, but did notknow how to say. As a matter of fact, theoriginal motion was a reflection on the Chair,because the hon. member moved, "That in theopinion of the House no Bill should be in-troduced which contains any provision thatis an evasion of the Standing Order.-" Ofcourse the Speaker would not lpermit a Billto be introduced which was an evasion of theStanding Order.

M~r. Carpenter: As a matter of fact, hedid.

The ATTORNEY GENERAL: Thereforeit did not renuiire any motion to say thatthe Speaker would do his duty. I urn per-fectly sure that hie would do it and do itvery well.

'Mr. Carpenter: The Speaker declared theBill to he an evasion.

The ATTORNEY GENERAL: No. hesaid nothing of the kind.

Mr, SPEAKER: Order! The AttorneyGeneral is not Jpermitted to discuss the, Sneaker's ruling on a motion after the mat-ter has been disposed or.

'Tle ATTORNEY GENERAL: I dto notknow that I was the guilty one. If so, Iani sorry. At all events, there is little moreto he said on the question.

Mr. UNDERWOOD (Pilbara) (S.201: Iwould ask the House to use a little cautionon this question. We have had before us aBill that was not altogether right, accordingto the opinons of most of uis. If the motionas amended be carried, and we get a newStanding Order, we aire likely to find therighlts and privileges of members curtailed.Under the motion a Standing Order couldhe framed which would prevent a privatemiember introducing any Bill whatever. be-

cause there never yet has been a Bill thatdid not involve the expenditure of money.

Arr. Taylor: That is not so.Mr. UNDER WOOD: There is an expendi-

ture of money,. even in the printing of aBill,' to begin with. I would remind the hon.imembher of the Shearers Accommodation Bill,which involved ain expenditure on inspectors.Are we going to lay it down that a privatemember is not to be permitted to introducea Bill of that description? I warn hon.members not to swing too far across andtake away the rights of private members.

Mr, Walker: That will depend on theframing of the Standing Order.

Mr. UNDERWOOD: Exactly. I am put-ting in a word so that when the committeestart to frame the Standing Order they willknow that they have something to come uipagainst. It is of no use locking the stabledoor after the horse has escaped. I suggestto the Standing Orders Committee that intrying to frame the proposed new StandingOrder they take particular care that they donot whittle away the rights of members.

Mr. CARP ENTER (Fremantle - inreply) [8.22] : I am glad the hon.member has ttlered the warning. if

Ithoughtta th acceptance of theamendment would be followed by theacceptance of a Standing Order in accord-aince with the amendment, I would certainlyoppose very strongly anything but the orig-inal motion. flowerer, with the hon. mem-ber's warning, and with the knowledge thatthe Standing Order when framed will comebefore the House for consideration, thedanger contained in the amendment is tosonic extent removed. The Attorney Generalbecame somewhat facetious at my expense,and I ami not at all surprised that opposi-tion to the motion as framed is centred in theTreasury bench.

'.%r. Taylor: And largely in the AttorneyGeneral.

Mr. CARPENTER: It is remarkable thatthe Premier was very carefot to make itclear that whatever blame attached to theintroduction of a certain Bill, upon whichthe whole of this question has been raised,did not attach to hhn or any of his col-leagues, except the Attorney General.. ThePremier distinctly told the House that the

[ASSEMBLY]

Government ought not to be blamed for whatthe Attorney General did,

The Premier: I said nothing of the sort.Mr. CARPENTER: 'Well, Hansard says

you did. The lion, member distinctly de-clared that what the Attorney General haddone as anl individnal in this matter the Gov-ernament were not responsible for.

The Premier: No.Mr. CARPENTER: Let thie hon. member

turn up his own words and satisfy himself.The Premier:. Nonsense.Mr. CARPENTER: I na not at all sur-

prilsed, either, that the introduction of thismotion has caused something like a flutterin the Ministerial dovecote. I wish to repeatthat the present Government, or, to acceptthe Premier's correction, the Attorney Gen-cral, has been guilty of introducingy or at-tempting tu introduce a practice in theHouse which has been tried in the British.House of Commons, where it was regardedas highly dangerous, and where steps weretaken to prevent its recurrence.

The Attorney General: The Premier didnot say so, and the Attorney General didnot do what you accuse him of.

Mr. CARPENTER: I am somewhat as-tonished at what was either gross negligenceon the part of the Premier or an attemptto mislead the House. The bon. membervery freely declared that in quoting May onthis subject, as showing whbat was the prac-tice in the House of Commons, I attemptedto mislead the House; and he at once tookup another anthority, namely, Todd's Par-iunentary Government in England, andpretended to quote from that somethingwhich he asserted was a declaration of theestablished practice in the House of Com-mons. If the Premier had not told theHouse that the honk had just been handedto him there would have been only onecourse open for me, namely, to declare thePremier guilty of gross misrepresentationI

The Premier: WVhat is this?Mr. CARPENTER: But the Premier had.

the book handed to him. Who made theselection that he read, I do not know, butI declare that the lines the Premier quoted-from Todd in his endeavour to prove thatthis practice was the practice of the Houseof Coijimons, were quoted from pages which

were intended by that author to prove thevery olpposite and to declare how this prac-tice had grown up in the House of Com-mons, how its dangyer bad been recognised,and what steps had been taken to obviate itin the future. Referring to the practice ofintroducing Bills with the proviso of whichwe complained in connection with the Billintroduced by the member for Katanning(MrI. Thomson), a proviso that certainIhing-s should be done if Parliament makesanl ap~propriation for that purpose, the Pre-mier told us-

It was followving out the establishedpractice as laid down by Todd which takespliace in the House of Commons.

I wish to repeat, and I am going to prove,that the Premier when lie used those wordshad not read the whole ofl the section fromwhich he quoted; for, had he done so, hisown personal lion our would have preventedhim from making that quotation to supportthe contention lie was putting uip.

The Premier: The portion that I readcertainly suplported my contention, did itnot?

Mr. CARPENTER: I have before me thehook and the section from which the Premierquoted. The section is headed, "Restrictionsupon Parliament in matters of supply." Ido not desire to weary bon. members byquoting whole pages, but shall read merelythe pertinent portions. The section begin--

According to ancient Constitutionaldoctrine and practice, no moneys can bevoted by Parliament for any purpose,whatsoever excep~t at the demand andupon the responsibility of Ministers ofthe Crown.

That is the beginning of the paragraphfrom which the Premier qu~oted.

In former times the mode of procedurein obtaining grants of money admitted ofno expenditure. It left no opportunityto any privat 'e member to introduce anyscheme of his own whereby any chargecould be made upon the people.The Premier: I did not read that.Mr. CARPENTER: It is part of the

section from which the Premier quoted, andI am endeavouring to show that the author'sintention and purpose were the contrary ofwhat the Premier wrould make them appear.

[15 NOVEMBER, 1916.]

Mr. Bolton: The Premier k-new that, too.

Mr. CARPENTER: The writer proceedsto show how this dangerous practice, whichis sanctioned by the lpresent Attorney Gen-eral, crept in-

In the year 1705 this abuse became sonotorious that early in the nest session,on 11th December, 1706, before any peti-tions of this sort Could be again offered,thie House resolved that it would receiveno petition for any sums of money relat-ing to the public services but what is re-Commended from the Crown,

Tfhle House of Commons at once recognised,as I have asked this House t6 recognise,the grave danger to itself and to the Statefrom the introduction of the practice whichI am seeking to remedy by this motion.Later, the writer says-

BLut While the House of Commons hasinvariably maintained the principle em-bodied in the foregoing Standing Order-

That was a Standing Order adopted in orderto prevent the practice.

so far as directly applicable, the ingenuityof members has discovered a way of prac-tically evading iL.

History has repeated itself once more, andthe ingenuity of the ntenibers of 200 yearsago, or the record of their ingenuity, hasreached the present Attorney General. Un-warned by the dauger which was then in-curred, the Attoraey General has sought toshow how clever he is, as a young AttorneyGeneral, by adopting a 200-years old prac-tice and endeavouring to get this House toproceed on the same dangerous lines as twocenturies ago were prohibited in the BritishHouse of Commons. The writer furthersays-

Where such Bills-That is, Bills like the one we were discussingwhen this question arose-

have originated with private members,they have, as a general rule, all been pro-ductive of great abuse by encouraging in-judicious and extravagant expenditure.

This is the danger, and I want bon. membersto follow particularly the next few lines.

if the principle of the Bill obtains thesanction of Parliament-

That is, without the necessary authorityfrom the Crown.

the faith of Parliament becomes pledgedto the outlay involved, and Ministers areobliged to include in future Estimates dis-tinct provision for it, and when the par-ticular grant that is required to car-ry outany such measure is brought forward inCommittee of Supply, any objection to itslprinctile is commonly met by the asser-tion that it is useless, if not unfair, toopiJOse it at this stage, inasmuch as Par-lianicut has already agreed that the pro-posed vxpienditure ought to be incurred.

H1on. members will see from these quotationshow wrong the Premier was-

The Premier: I was not wrong.Mr. CARPENTEiR: [[a selectiug a few-

sentences from this section.The Premier: I do not think you are quot-

ing from the same portion as I wvas.Mir. CARP1,3N'fER: I have the same hook

arid the same page.The Premier: Why (10 you not quote what

I[ -read 9Mr. CARPENTER: Whbat the Premier

quoted was simply the author's relation ornarrative of a practice formerly existing.

The Premier: You read my quotation, andyou will see where you are out of order, asy-ou usually are.

Mr. CARPENTER: These are the wordswhich the Premier quoted from page

'['e Premier: I quoted whatever wasrelevant to the Bill.

3lr. CARPENTER: The writer had beenreferring to the very Bills of which I amcomlpliningn, and to their very dangerouscharacter. In the lines quoted by the Pre-mier, however, the writer simply declareswvhat was the practice which was then reme-died by the adoption of a new StandingOrder.

The Premier: Read out what I read. Iread the Standing Order, too.

Mr. CARPENTER: The writer says-But whatever might be the precise objectof these Bills, inasmuch as they establishgrounds of expense-

Let hon. members listen to thisi the Premierquoted this-

they are an evasion of the Constitutionalrule-

I hope the Attorney General is listening,because he declares there was no evasion.

942 [ASSE-MBLY.]

The Attorney General: That is quiteright. You do not understand what youare reading; that is the point.

Mr. CARPENTER: The writer says-are an evasion of the Constitutionalrule which forbids the grant of moneyby Parliament except on the applicationof the Crown.

That is wlint we are contending for, andthat is whlat the author is contending for,and that is what the British House ofCommons accomplished by the StandingOrder referred to and by the abolition ofthe practice.

The Premier: Please finish my quotation.Mr. CARPENTER: I am going to finish

it. I have the Premier on the hip, and it isno use for him to squirm or wriggle. Thequotation continues-

[n order to admit of the proposed grant,although a direct violation of Constitu-tional practice, Bills of this descriptioninvariably contain a clause to this effect,that the necessary expense to be incurredthereby should be defrayed out of moneyshereafter voted by Parliament.The Premier: Yes, exactly.Mr. CARPENTER : Exactly. The an-

thor is just simply' pointing out the trickeryadopted by private members and even byMinisters of the da 'y to escape their ob-ligation and to get round the Constitution.

Trhe Premier : No.Mr-. CARPENTER: That is whlat the

nuihor's intention is here.The Premier: That is the practice..Nr. CARPENTER: If the Premier had

read the whole of that section-The Premier: I (lid.Mr. CARPENTER: He would have

known-Thme Premier: I dlid read the whole.Mr. CARPENTER: He read those few

sentences only. He omitted what wvent be-fore and what followed after. If the Pre-mier had read in front of his quotation, orafter it, hie could not, as an honest man,have tried to make the House believe thatthe wvords lie quoted supported his conten-tion at all. They destroy his contention.They are up against his argument. Theywent to p~rove altogether the very oppositeof wvhat the Premier wvas trying to make theHouse believe.

The Premier : Go on and finish the quota-(ion, lplease.

iiv. CARPENTER: I will read the wholeof the book if the Prcmier pleases. It isreal good skiff, If anything were wanted toshow the House ond the country to whatthle p~reseint Government have descended, or-to accep~t the Premier's correction-towhat the present Attorney General has des-cended, there could be nothing better thanvoluminous quotations from this same hook.I will just finish the quotation which thePremier read-

The facility attending the introductionof such Bills has frequently induced M1in-isters themselves-

Like the Attorney General.to take advantage of this mode of obtain-ing the sanction of Parliament for theirlegislative measure.The Premier: Go on.Mr. CARPENTER: Why should a Min-

ister, either 200 yenrs ago, or to-day, have tolake advantage of subterfuges of this na-ture?

The Premier: You said that this was notdune in the house of Commons, and Iproved to you that it was done there.

Mr. CARPE~NTER: No. I said that it"'as done in the British House of Commons200 years ago, but tltat a private miemberintroduced a motion to put a stop to thepractice. On. tile other hand, the Premier toldthe House that it was still the establishedpractice of the British House of Commons.'[lint is the point, and that, I say, is wherethe Premier misled the House. To crown hismisrepresentation, he said that the memberfor Frennantle had been guilty of misleadingthle House, when the misleading caine en-tirely from himself.

The Premier: Nowv please finish the quota-tion.

Mr. CARPENTER: I will. It is toogood to miss-

Noreove-. in certain circumstances, cudwvithm a view to facilitate the progress ofpublic business, Bills of this class haveeven been permitted to originate in theHouse of Lords.The Premier: There you are, you are

blown out.Alt. CARPENTER: The Premier is get-

ting deeper and deeper into the mud. He

[15 NOVEMaBER, 1916.194

does not quite see where he is getting to.The adoption of this evasive practice, thisdangerous practice, was taken advantage of,not by the Attorney General of the day,but even by the House of Lords, by men whohave, and had, no right whatever to initiatlemoney Bills. They followed that bad ex-ample and introduced Bills containing thisdangerous proviso, got them through, anithen looked to the Governament to brin(lown the appropriation some time later.Then, of course, they claimed, as the authorpoints out, "The House has adopted theprinciple of the Bill, and it is not fair toknock the Bill out now; the money is beingvoted now as the Bill was passed a long timeago andl endorsed; therefore rass the moneyand let the appropriation go through." It

wsan absolute pic~e of trickery whichgrew up two centuries ago, was abolishe.]by resolution of the Home of Commons,and is revived to-day by that young springchicken, the Attorney General. The Min-ister for Works gets up and says, "Prettyclever, was it not?"

The Minister for Works: I did not say aword; but what about the amendment nowl

11r. CARPENTER: I am giving the quao-tat ion. Have members opposite had enoughof itI? There is 1,lenty more.

The Premier: Did I quote all that?Mlr. CARPENTER: lReferringr to the

same class of Bill, in the same section, fromwhich the Premier quoted, we have thesewords--

Where such Bills have originated withprivate members, they have, as a generalrule, been productive of great abuises--

That we have seen hiere. Let hon. mnemb erslis'en to this-

gre at abuses hy eneouratr-ing injudiciousand extravag-ant cx r enditure,

The writer proceeds to point out how thisdanger was reognise-I, and what stes we:retaken ig remedy' it bY the adoption of a rwwvStandin- Order.

The Minister for Works: Now give us !!.eamendment.

Mr. CARPENTER: The whole of thatsection continues in the same s'rain, and ifthe hon. member wants to understand ltcedanger which is involved in the evavive,practice adonted bv th~e Attorney General,T only ask him to take Todd and read for

himself particularly the sections from whichtne Premier quoted a few sentences. 1 zimaware that the hion. member who has movedthis amendment desires the same object thatI had in view. The motion proposed levelsa charge against the Government which hedoes not wish to sanction or support. I donot hesitate to say that I submitted mymotion in the form I did because I believedand still believe that the Government weredeparting from Constitutional practice inadofpting dangerous and evasive tactics, andchat they were leading the House and thecountry into danger. Believing that, I didnot hesitate to put my motion in the formwhich would hring home both to i.inistersand members and 1.o the country, my opinionof what had been done. Personally, I donot care whether the motion or the amend-ment hie cairied, I repeat that the hon.member who has moved the amendment hasthe same object in view, with this qtzalifl-cation, that it pdroposes to do sotrethingmore than the member himself had in viewwhen he wrote the amendment, and with the'reservation that the Standing~o Order whenframed shall he submitted to the Hou~e andthat the Standing Order shall preserve allthe rights of private members and at thiesame time insist upon the observation of allthe obligations of the Government, I leaveit to lion, members to say whe!her they willsupport the mnotion or the amendment.

The PREMTIER (Hon. Frank Wilson-Sus~sex) [8.48): 1 took exception to thehion. member's motion because he introducedit in an antagonistic srintl.

Yr. Cartrenter: Quite justifiahi v.'l'he PREX JER: The motion is one of

censure upon a member of the Government.Mr. Carrenrer: Exa-thy.The PRE'IER: And as such I -was not

prepared to accept it, hut I told voni. Mfr.Sp1,earker, and the Elovse before J sat down,Hant I wais jrst as jealous as Any othecr n-em-

hoc- could be to preserve the control oftinuncial matters in the liands of Parliament,and that I would not object to taking a handin) the fraingn~ of an additional rule orStanding- Orr'er to give fuller effect to thatconviction. I have not misquoted the hon.mnemlber at all. He waxed iniivant inrepeating his cha-res to-nielht. If it -nveqhim anyv satisfaction, he is at liberty to do

943

944 [ASSEMBLY.]

so as often as be likes and as often as therules of the Rouse will permit; but at thesame timne I must say that his charge againstwue of wilfully misleading the House is onethat I cannot accept in silence. I had nointention whatever of misleading the Houseand I contend I did not mislead the Housewhen I. quoted from Todd.

Mr. Carpenter: Then someone misledYOU.

The PREMIER: I quoted Todd as re-ported in Hansard, and as the bon. memberby much prompting on my part to-night hasre-quoted for me. By that quotation be hassubstantiated my contention that he wascompletely blown out in his argument. Hesaid that the House of Commons never dida thing of this sort and would never allowsuch a state of affairs to exist; it was farand away above trickery such as had been.exposed on this occasion. I proved to himthat the House of Commons had establishedat custom to get over a C onstituztional prac-tice by the very means that the member forrcatannmng had adopted, and I went furtherand said that whilst I had no concern, andthe Gonvernmuent had no concern, person-ally, with the measure, that if it were curriedby Parliament and it became law, I shouldldeem it my duty to bring down the neces-sary appropijation accompanied by a mes-sag-e from the Governor.

.1r. Llcitmnn: You are beaten.)fr. Carp~enter: Yroi are climbing down.Tfle PIEA11E311: That was the attitude

I took uip, and so far from being beaten, asthe honj. member puts it,' the motion movedwas dereated and, as the hon. member knows,lie helped to pass out the Bill without anydebate. It was not my measure- I carriedout my pledge.

Mr. Carpenter: You slipped out of it.The PREMIER: I did all in my power

to have the mneasure discussed. I objectedto the atitude which the hon. member took;uip, when not content with the defeat of theamendment which had been moved by themember for Mt. Margaret and the subsequentloss of the measure, he then tabled a motionwhich was practically one of censure. Theamendment proposed by the member forIrwin (Mr. Gardiner) is one that I men-tioned I am quite willing to accept. I saidit was an abstract principle and I was pre-

panredl to agree to some motion of that des-c~ripition. Bat that did not convey that theGovernment had been guilty of any wrongin conlnection with the measure introduced tothe House by the member for Katanning.

11r, Carpenter: The framing of thisStanding Order will prove that you areNv rung.

The PRE-1iER: On the contrary it willprove we are right. It will prove that theSpeaker was right and that the House wasright and that the hon. member was wrungin htis contention. It may prove,' if hon. mem-bers accept the recommendation of the com-mittee when it comes, that the House wentfuirther to safeguard its control over legis-lation of this description, and I will notblame them if an amendment in that direc-tion is accepted. The hon. member will re-mnember mny sa :ying that I was quite preparedto take part in the framing of StandingOrders in this connection as I wvas as jealousas any other hon. member to safeguard thecontrol of financial matters by the Govern-meat. That is the position briefly. Insteadof the hon. member casting innuendoesagainst memubers of this Government andagainst myself, and making charges of mis-quotation1s; charges of nmisrepresentation andaccusing its of every crime in the calendar,lie should gratefully and graciously accept1ie support I have given him and gr-ate-fully accept the amendment which the mem-ber for, Irwin has moved, and which will at-min his object without all the rancour andvindictiveness which he has displayed.

Amendment put and passed.Questioni, as amended. agreed to.

BILL-TRADING CONCERNS (No. 2).

Second Reading.The MINISTER FOR WORKS (Hon.

W. J. George-M-~urray-Wecllington) ,7.58J,in moving the second reading, said: Hon.members will remember on the 4th Dle-ceniher, 1012, the then Premier (Mr. Scad-dan) introduced what wvas termed a Gov-ernment Trading Concerns Bill, and in thecourse of his remarks on the introduction ofthat mneasure he spoke as follows:-

The Auditor General expressed an opin-ion which has been frequently expressed

944

[15 NOVEMBER, 1916.] 945

in this House that the law should beframed so that proper accounts of alltrading undertakings should be kept awlsubmitted to Parliament. That is the de-sire we have and a desire expressed atsome time by nearly every member of Par-liament, but for some reason no Govern-ment have previously taken the oppor-tunity, perhaps through pressure of otherbusiness, of lpresenting to Parliament aBill which would compel that desire to begiven effect to. The measure I have thepleasure of introducing to-night is forthat pulrpose.

Then further on the then Premier said-If we arc going to undertake these trad-

ing concerns we ought to be in a positionto show to the country exactly how theystand1 at the end of the year, just as if acompany or a firm were operating themu.We are placing these concerns exactly oathe same basis as if they were run by aprivate firm. I am also providing thatwvhere nwncy is found from the Consoli-dated Revenue Fund to provide capital fortrading concerns, such as the Owalia StateHotel, the department shall, in their booksdebit interest as if the tern was utilis-iag loan money.

I am making these referer. not with theidea of reflecting upon the ner Govern-menit, because .1. believe that y, like my-self, bad the impression that the tradingconcerns account measure, as placed beforeus, filled the bill in the way that the tradin~gconcerns should be carried on, identically inthie same way as a private business shouldbe carried on, but unfortunately the carrying-on of those concerns has disclosed to theofficials controlling them that there aremany restrictions which binder the opera-tion of them, and there are various condi-tions in connection with the Audit Actwhich render it diffioult to produce for theHouse a proper statement of effairs. ithas been realised, regarding the tradingconcerns under consideration, that they' arenot working on sound commercial lines, thatthe financial operations as disclosed on theConsolidated Revenue Estimates are notcorrectly stated, and that it is not possibleto obtain a correct view of the financialposition of each concern.

Mr. E. B. Johnston: That is a mustserious charge.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: I wvillelaborate on that later on. It is not acharge against the late Government.

Mr. Collier: It is due to the defects in theAct.

The IISTER FOR WORKS: I saidat the comnnencemnent of my remarks that Ifelt that the then Premier had the belief,and that other members also had it, that theTrading Concerns Act would give us whatwe thought it would, that is, a proper state-ment of accounts. I said I was not makinga charge against the Government, and I donot propose to make a charge against thelate Government upon that particular line,but wvith the experience of the years whichhave gone by various defects have disclosedthemselves, and in order to remedy thesedefects and pitt the trading concerns upona sound basis, this Trading Concerns Billwhich is before the House has been designed,and it is thought will place them upon a

prprfoundation. It was recognised clearlyby the House at the time that although therewas a number of members who disagreedwith the idea of the Government enteringinto trading concerns, it was, at any rate,desirable that the trading concerns should beplaced upon such a footing that it would beabsolutely disclosed whether their operationswere ptrofitable or not, whether they weredoing what it was said they were expectedto do, and whether they were falling shortof the expectation that their authors had ofthem. We maintain that if it is found thatthe machinery in regard to the book-keepingdoes not keep as full a check upon the con-cern as it should do and that the House can-not judge whether these trading concernsare justify- ing themselves or not, somearrangement should be made whereby theHouse will be in full possession of thefacts. I have stated that it is not possibleto obtain a correct view of the position inour trading concerns. One of the reasonswhy this is not possible is as foflows :-takethe sawmills; in their statements of ac-counts interest can only be charged underthe Act on £94,000 of the capital, and yetto carry on this concern a capital has to beprovided of something like £050,000. We

[ASSEMBLY.]

maintain, and I think every member wvillagree, that if that concern had been startedby borrowing money from any one of thebaniks, the concern would have bad to payinterest to the bank on every penny that itobtained in order to carry on. It mustfollow that unless that course is carried outit will he impossible for people to arrive atthe correct position of these trading con-cerns. Suppose an hon. member started atrading concern with his own money. If heis wise, although it is his own money, 'whenhoe is mnaking lip his accounts for the year,lie will debit his profit and loss account withthe interest which the money would havefurnished had it been placed out on mort-gage, or had it been lent to anyone else.Then lie knows that the difference betweenthat and his profit and loss account tellshim what hie has made above the interest onthe money by his trading throughout theyear. If, instead of using his own money,he had to borrow from the bank, then hewould have had to pay the interest to whichT have referred. Consequentl 'y his grossprofit must be reduced by the interest onthe money lie could have earned, or the in-terest he has to pay in order to carry on.This state of affairs was considered by thisGovernment, and I think possibly may havebeen considered by the previous Govern-ment, as not being entirely satisfactory. Wedetermined that an attempt should be madeto remedy this state of affairs and place theconcerns, whether we carried them on ordisposed of them, on sound foundations.right through. In order to do that theColonial Treasurer and his Ministers dis-cussed the situation and then called togetherthe Under Treasurer, the accountants, andother officials who understand these ques-tions, and -they were given instructions -to gointo the matter thoroughly and to draft aBill-after consultation with the SolicitorGeneral-which would carry out what wehave stated, namely, place these concerns onthe same basis as an outside concern. Fur-ther than that it was found necessary thatthe financial position of -the trading concernsshould he gone into more carefully andplaced fully before the House in this Bill.If hon. members will turn to th e scheduleof the Bill they will find that there are five

columns. In the first of these the amountof what is considered as the fixed capital isgiven, then the amount of capital needed tobe used to carry on, the floating capital ofthe trading concerns, and further, a sum ofmoney which it is considered advisableshould be placed to the credit of each ofthese trading concerns as a sort of reserveupon which to draw in case of need. In allthe instructions that were given it was statedthat the concerns should be placed upon asound commercial basis, similar to that ofan incorporated company, that the cash op-eration should be shown on separate tradingconcerns estimates, and that these estimateswere to be entirely distinct from the Con-solidated Revenue Fund Estimates. Thatmeans that, instead of including in his Bud-get the gross receipts of each trading con-cern on the one side and the full details ofexpenditure or estimated expenditure on theother, the Treasurer wodild bring to accountin the estimates of these different concernsthe estimated results of the year's trading.Hon. members will see, if thef take theclauses right through with me, that eachclause follows on one with the other, pro-viding the machinery to build up the systemof accounts desired.

Mhr. .Angwin: They will have difficulty indoing that.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: We aregoing to try and succeed. If the hon. mem-ber will help we cannot fail.

Mr. Angwin: Yon' are hound to fail.The MlIISTER FOR WORKS: No, we

are not. With the hon. gentleman's helpwe could not but succeed. Hon. members.will see that the matter starts in this way.The Bill comimences with the beginning ofthe concern, its authorisation, then the pro-vision of the money. and then follows clauseafter clause whichi ensures that the ordinarybusiness working of the concern shall be in-dicated to those who have to carry it on,and indicated, we believe, with some amountof success. Hon. membhers may notice that-some of the trading concerns have been leftout. I will give a list of those and give thereason why they hare been left out. Theyare the Albany Cold Storage Works, theAborigines cattle station, the Government Re-frigerating Works, the Kalgoorlie abattoirs,

(15 Novxnniia, 1916.J 947

the metropolitan abattoirs and sale yards,the Perth State markets, and the State dairyfarm at Claremont. These concerns are notconsidered to be trading concerns in exactlythle same sense as the sawmills or the StateImplement Works and have been so left out,but the provisions which are included in theBill before the House would enable the op-erations of this Bill to apply to these, sofar as it is found to be necessary in carryingthem out.

31r. Collier: The Bill also provides thatno new trading concerns may be establishedwithout thle consent of Parliament.

The 'MINISTER FOR WORKS: it in-tend to refer to that as I get on with theBill. It will be seen that thle initial differ-eace between this Bill and the one which isthe Act to-day is that the Trading Act of1912 wvas to apply to such Governmentunderlakings and such works and servicestemporarily financed from public funds andhereafter referred to as trading concerns.as the Governor may by Order-in-Councildeclare to be under and subject to the Act.The meaning of that is that the Governmentof the day could on their own initiativestart any trading concern that they feelinclined to start without reference toParliament.

lvir. Green: Or its abolition without re-ference to Parliament.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: I donot know about that.

Mr. Collier: They might sell without re-ference to Parliament.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Theycould start a trading concern withoutreference to Parliament. We on thisside of the House say that that viewis wrong; that if the State is to enterinto competition with its own taxpayers, therepresentatives, of the p~eople in Parlia-ment should have a voice in sayingwhether or not such a concern should bestarted.

Mr. Angwin: We had no voice in thesecret purchase of cattle.

Mr. Scaddan: Thle purpose of the? Billis to place the whole of these concerns in thehands of the Legislative Council.

The MINISTER FOR 'WORK-S: Thehion. gentleman can say what he likes whenhis turn comes.

Mr. Scaddan: Why did you not putthe railways in'

The M.ITNISTER FOR WORKS: I havestated that the Tradling Act of 1912 per-mnitted the Government of the day to startany trading concerns that they chose with-Out reference to Parliament. It will befound in this Bill that no trading concerncan he started without first of all beingapproved of by Parliament, and unless itis started by funds which are appropriatedby Parliament. That is the great differencebetween what has been the rule before andwhat is now provided for. This Bill may beproperly divided into about three parts.There is one jpart which provides for thecontinuance of tradhing concerns as they areat present, and also with the addition ofother trading concerns if Parliament shouldthink it is right and proper that they shouldbe dealt with. Another part provides forthe disposal, either by sale or lease, of anytrading concerns which are established atpresent or hereafter may be established.

Mr. Scaddan: On whose approvalThe MINISTER FOR W ORKS: The hion.

member will see that by the Bill.Mr. Seaddon: Why do you not say so9The MINISTER FOR WORKS: I am

coming to that clause later on. The otherpart is to putt all the accounts on rightlines. The lion, member will see in readingthrough the Bill that at the start it arrangesthnat certain trading concerns may be con-tinued and carried on subject to the pro-visions of the Bill. The trading concernswhich it is desired to bring under the Billare shown in the schedule, and if memberswill turn the schedule, they will find notonly the names of the concerns, but full par-ticulars indicating the fixed capital value.

Mir. Ang-Win: What do you call the fixedcapital value.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Themoney actually expended in the concernsagainst which interest is charged up to the30th June.

Mr. Angwia: The figures supplied to mem-bers do not follow your statement.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Theymay not, but it has to be remembered thatthe balance sheets placed on the table ofthe House are not audited, and they wereplaced on the table on the distinct under-

rASSEAIBLY,]

.standing that they were not audited balance-sheets.

Mfr. Augwia: Are they audited yet.The MINISTER FOR WORKS: I do not

think so.'Mr. Scaddan: Then your figures should

cLorrespond with those in the Bill.The 'MINISTER FOR WORKS: The

lion, member will understand if I put it inthis way. We called fixed capital the amountwichl has been spent in plant and machinery.railways. and various other things connec-ted with the trading concerns- In the secondcolumn is given what the actuaries who havegone into the question have decided is theamount which was in use uip to the30th June, 1916; and the additional capitalplaced in the next column is something tocome and go on, so that when the balancesheets arc audited there may be some slightalteration. but it will not he much and can-not interfere with the trading concerns pro-perly working under this Act. We also pro-vide in this Bill with regard to the establish-ment of trading concerns that Parliamentshall have a complete vpiee in conneetiontherewith?7

Mr. Collier: And a complete voice in dis-posing of them?

The 'MINISTER FOR WORKS: Weshall deal with that further on.

Mr- Collier: It is an equally importantpointl.

11r. Afunsie: Give them enough rope andthey will hang themselves.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: I do notcare whether you lhang Mfinisters or whetheryou hang members of Parliament, but do nothang up this Bill, because it is needed inorder to em-ry on the concerns. We mustcurry them on until we sell them. If theHouse is satisfied that this Bill is an honestendeavour so far as the accountants havebeen able to make it to put the concerns onat proper basis, then members will supportthe Hill.

Mr. Underwood: Are they on a wrongbasis now?

The MIINISTER FOR WORKS: Ithink so.

Mr. Underwood: You are a pretty badJudge.

The2I1NISTER FOR WORKS: Nodoubt; but so far as that is concerned theHouse may judge on the point. That re-mark arises. merely from the exuberance ofthe lion, gentleman's good nature. We notonly say that these concerns shall not eon-tinue unless expressly authorised by Parlia-ment, but we also give a definition of what atrading concern really is, that it shall he car-ried on with a view to making pro fit, and toproducing in competition with other busi-nesses. WVe think it is as well to place ab-solutely clearly in this Bill what the objectsof a trading, concern really are,

Mr. Taylor: Are not the railways a trad-ing concern?

The 'MINISTER FOR WORKS: Yes, butthey are under a different Act, This Bill hasnothing- to do with the railways. Memberswill see by another clause that all moneysto be used in trading concerns must be ap-propriated by Parliament. There is no re-ference to the -railways in the schedule tothis Act.-

Mr. Taylor: But this Bill indicates thatthe railways are trading concerns.

M~r. Scaddan: What will you do abouttrading at Rottuest?

The MI1NISTER FOE WORK S: Whenwe are dealing with the question of tradingat Rotrnest I hope to be in the positon oftellingy the hion. member. We are not deal-nfg with that question now, but with the trad-ing concerns mentioned in the schedule. ThisAct will allow of the establishment of othertrading concerns.

Mfember: What if the Bill does not pass?The 11INISTER FOR WVORKS: If the

BiUl does not pass, then they cannot be dealtwith, and, judging by the attitude of thehon.. member, hie evidently wishes that theBill shall not hie p)assed.

Mr. Scadd an: By this Bill you are placingthe control of the affairs. of the State in thehands of the Legislative Council.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Thehion. gentleman is entitled to take that viewif he chooses, but there is nothing in the Billto show it.

Mr. Seaddan: There is, and you know itabsolutely.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: I defythe hoa. gentleman when he speaks on the

[15 NOVEMBER, 1916.] 4

Bill to justify that statement. -Members willfind that in dealing with the trading concernswre put i hemt on exactly the same plane andsubject to the same conditions as ordinarytraders outside. Members will see by Sub-clause (5) of Clause 6 that-

No petition or right or other proceed-ing shall be presented to or maintaine-dagainst the Crown for any matter in res-pect of which any action may be broughtagainst a Minister, under this section.

Therefore we are placing the different trad-ing concerns in the position that they maybe stied at common law in just the same wayas an ordinary trader. We are, as one lion.member has suggested, going the whole hogin order that the whole of the trading con-cerns may be put upon a piroper bas. Thenit is proposed to establish in the Treasury abanking account.

Mr. Angwin: Will that be uinder the con-trol of the 'Minister also!

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: TheColonial Treasurer will establish a banking-account in the Treasury and on that accounteacti trading concern will require to issueits cheques and pay its debts, insteiid of hav-ing an account curr-ent at the CommonwealthBank or any other bank. This will give theTreasurer a better rip on the finances ofthe trading concerns and lie will be able tosee whether they are over-running the con-stable or not. By placing this account withthe Treasurer, who is also usually the Pre-mier, be is enabled to deal with the Ministercontrolling trading concerns in just the samneway as the manager of a bank deals with afirm on his books whose overdraft is reach-ing its limit.

.Mr. Taylor: I read it that that is not so.The "MINISTER FOR WORKS: I am

speaking plainly and I do not wish you toread anything into my Wvords. I am. not herefor the purpose of casting mud at the trad-ing concerns or at our predecessors, but withthe object of explaining the plain provisionsof a business Bill. TPhis banking- accountto be opened in the Treasury by the ColonialTreasurer will have money placed to itscredit, but that money must first be appro-priated by Parliament; and Parliament willhave an opportunity of discussing the trad-ing concerns every time a question of cashcomes up. It will place the trading concerns

in an exactly similar position as lion. mem-bers dealing with a bank who find they re-q~lire further advances. They have to go tothe bank manager and ask for an extensionof their accommodation.

Mr. Taylor: Then the -Minister will needto he at the door of the Treasury everyweek.

The MI1NISTER FOR WORKS: I do )totthink there will he any necessity for such atravesty of foolishness. It is foolish to sug-gcst that the 2ilinister will require to beknocking ait thie door of the Treasury everyweek. There is no intention whatever ofthat. Sufficient capital will be placed tothe credit of the concerns, and as theirmoney comes in and they pay it out theyhave Ihis money to work on, just as is the

caewith ordinary trading concerns. It isprovided that should occasion arise in whichfurther moneys arc required thtan are appro-priated by Parliament, the Colonial Treas-urer may make temporary advances.

Mr. Scaddan: That is a contradiction ofwhat you said just now. You said thatthey could not draw until Parliament hadappropriated the necessary money and younow say that the Treasurer may make ad-vances.

[The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Carpenter) tookthe Chair.]

The 'MI-NiSTER FOR WORKS: WhatI have stated is correct. It is provided fur-tlier thtit at the end of each half year thereshall be debited to the bankiug account ofceli trading concern such an amount asshall be deeided by the Colonial Treasurerto be equitable as interest and sinking fundcontribution. This will be debited in thesanmc way as interest is debited in a bank.Under (he Local Inscribed Stock Act thehalf per cent. sinking fund is not chargedagainst works unci four years after the loanhas bee raised, but this Act will permit ofthis debit being placed against a trading con-cern, immediately it is started, which is as itshould be instead of having as now to waitfor four years.

M)r. Scaddan: Why the difference?The M1INISTER FOR WORKS: Be-

cause if we are to place the trading concernson the same footing as other trading con-

949

950 [ASSEMBLY.]

cernts outside it has to be remembered thatthose outside concerns would be charged uipwith all their expenses right from the startand( not after waitinug four years. Does thehon. gentleman mean to say that in connec-tion with outside trading concerns a bankerwould suspend the payment of interest forfour years until I he concern has had a pro-per start, or that the ordinary trading ac-Counts would be held over for four years?

-IMember: What about the interest on capi-tal?

The MlINISTER FOR WORKS: Theshareholders have to do wvithout their di vi-dends, but tile expenses of a concern are de-bited from the starting of the business.

M1r. Thomas: Where does interest in share-]iolders' capital come in. I an questioningyour business acumen.

The MINI STER FOR WORKS: Thelion. member has yet to prove his businesscapacity; 1 have already proved mine.

Mir. Thomas: You think so. Your bus-iness acumen is not apparent from this Bill.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: If thehon. member w'ere as solid as I on the matterof finance he might be entitled to speak.

Mr. Thomas: What do you know of myfinances!

The MJINISTER FOR WORKS: No-thing; I only know you are foolish. TheBill provides that interest on the daily bal-ances, to be appropriated out of consoli-dated revenue shall be charged up in thebooks of the trading concerns. The amountof such interest will be made up half-yearlyand carried to the debit of the differenttrading concerns. The rate of interest willbe fixed by the Colonial Treasurer. Anotherclause enables the Treasurer to effect ad-justments between departments and the trad-ing concerns. Ca the establishment of atrading concern, it may be that a depart-ment has surplus plant or machinery whichwould be useful to the trading concern; andthe clause will enable the necessary adjust-ment between such department and thetrad-ing concern to be made.

Mr. Angwin: Will the Treasurer havepower to make the other departments paytheir accounts?

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Weshall have that, of course.

Mir. Thomas: The hon. member seems tobe getting into a tangle.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: I amnot getting into a tangle. It is the lion.member's lack of intelligence.

Mr. Thomas: That is the only class ofinterjection the hon. member is capable ofmaking.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Thisclause enables the Treasurer to make ad-justments between the department and thetrading concern in connection with the trans-fer of plants. It is simply a plain methodof enabling the officers to carry on theirbusiness. Ministers will have nothing to dowith it. It is merely an adjustment as be-tween, say, thle Works and the Railways.The Railways may have a locomotive whichthe Public Works require for a trading con-cern, and if there be any difficulty of ad-justment between the officers it shall hereferred to thle Treasurer, who will act asan arbitrator.

Mir. Angwin: The Railways will wantmore for an old locomotive than for a new

The NlINISTER FOR WORKS: I antnot surprised. A few of the lessons whichI laid down while there have borne fruitsplendidly. The next clause to be referredto provides that all moneys placed to thecredit of an account in the booksof the Treasury for the capital expenditureor working expenses of a trading concernshall be withdrawn by imprest or certificateas provided in the regulations under theAct. Under this clause the Auditor Generalretains his full powers. At present allthe vouchers have to go to the Treasurer,and that necessitates the keeping of dupli-cates in the trading concerns for reference.Under the provisions of the Bill that willbe unnecessary. It will be for the AuditorGeneral to see that the money provided hascome from its proper sources and the totaldebit there may be in the Treasury bookscan be followed up in the books of the trad-ing concerns. Instead of the vouchers hav-ing to go to the Treasurer, as at present,duplicating work and causing endlesstrouble, they will be kept by each tradingconcern and will have to be producedto the Auditor General for him toverify and cheek and deal with. This will

[15 N\oVEMBSR, 1916.])5

save a great amount of trouble in the Trea-sury and in the trading concerns and willnot whittle away by one iota the properpowers which the Auditor General has inthis conevtion. Section 7 of the Act hasbeen introduced as Clause 12 of the Bill.It dleal with funds that may be in hand andnot required at the time by the trading con-cern. It enables the Treasurer to make useof such funds and place them out at interestin order that they may earn some money.Section 11 of the Act is also reintroduced inthe Bill. It deals with the depreciation ofthe assets of trading concerns. It providesthat this shall be dealt with by the Trea-surer. Of course that meaas, dealt with onconsultation with the various officers, by theaid of the experienced men whom the Trea-surer has at his command. It provides fora uniform system of dealing with the assetsof the different concerns so that the rate ofdepreciation may be fixed on a fair basis inorder that the one trading concern mnay nothave one system while another has 'another.It takes them all as, belonging to the State,and provides that the one system in regardto depreciation shall apply.

Mr. Scaddan: Where does it state that?The MINISTER FOR WORKS: In

Clause 15.Mr. Seaddan: I do not see it there.The MINISTER FOR WORKS: That

is the meaning of it, anyhow. In Section 13of the Act there appeared the word "Minis-ter!' We have removed that and inserted inlieu "Colonial Treasurer," because differentMinisters deal with the different concerns,one having one and one another, and eachmay have a different view of the value ofthe depreciation. However; by placing itall under the Treasurer that Minister is putin the position of an arbitrator.

Mr. Scaddan: Who is going to advise him?The MINISTER FOR WORKS: He

will get his advice from the different tradingconcerns and by means of his officers. Hewill be able to institute one system.

Mr. Scaddan: That is what happens now.Mr. IV. D. Johnson: Have another try.The 3MINISTER FOR WORKS: No; it

is correct -as I have stated it.M~r. Scaddan: Try and make some virtue

out of it.

The M1INISTER FOR WORKS: Itwould be a big job to make virtue out of thelion, gentleman. He lost it all in his recenttroubles.

'Mr. Scadd an: You never had any.The 11INISTER FOR WORKS: The

next clause provides for annual estimates ofrevenue and expenditure to be submitted toParliament separately from the ConsolidatedRevenue Estimates. The Act provided thatthey should be part of the Consolidated Re-venue Estimates. The object of the clausei6 to show to Parliament what it is antici-pated will be thle scope of business duringthe year, and the anticipated result of thetrading.

Mr. Scaddan: Did not we show the same?Tine MINISTER FOR WORKS: The

lion. membcr and his colleagues had notacumnien enough to show anything but a de-kiit, and they gloried in it.

Mr. 'Munsie: Your Government are notshlowing anythiing else.

Mr. Angwin: It will all depend on thetrading.

Thne MINISTER FOR WORKS: Thatis true. In any trading concern at the startof the year one cannot tell what trade willbe done. One has to use his experience toguide him as to a fair estimate to lay beforehis bankers. All that any one can do in re-gard to trading concerns is to place beforeParliament what one honestly believes thleresult of thie year's trading will prove. Wehave the same position in regard to the StateImplement Works. N.o man can tell howmany harvesters will be required- during theyear, but he can use his judgment, guidedby former experience.

Mr. Harrison: Even if he over-supplies, itis an asset.

The MIINISTER FOR WORKS: Thatmay be so, but the hon. member was refer-ring to the estinates of profit. Althoughassets in stock, they would not he put in atsale price. There would be the differencebetween manufactured cost and reatlisation.Therefore, all that can be done is to framean estimate of what the profit is likely to befrom work done and what numb~er ofmachines are likely to be sold.

Mr. Seaddan: It is like squeezing a lemoninto soda wvater.

951

[ASSEMBLY.]

Theo MINISTER FOR WORKS: Thenext clause deals with die revenue receiptsof the trading concerns in connection withthie working expenses. If the revenue re-ceipts of any trading concern are insufficientto mneet thie money that has been paid outduring the financial year the deficiency shallbe provided out of the working capitalshown in the schedule of the Bill or pro-vided by Parlinmentary app)ropriation, asthe case may be. Another clause providesthat if the funds, including working capitalof any trading concern are insufficient tomecet requirements during the financial yearthe deficiency may be Lprovided from theappropriation "Advance to Treasurer."

Mfr. W. D. Johnson; What change do youmake there?

The MINISTER FOR WORKS:. I donot know that there is much change there.It is Section 16 in the Act. We are takingthe good points out of the Act.

Air. W. D. Johnson: W'hy take up ourtime by explaining what is already in theAct?7

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Be-cause othler members desire it.

The Premier: I want it explained.Mir. Scadd an: You are giving a Commit-

tee explanation of the clauses.The MINISTER FOR WORKS: I am

trying to explain the Bill so that the Housemay understand it. One thing you did wasto throw dust in the eyes of the people. Iam trying to take it out. The purpose ofthe clause is this, that if the collection ofaccounts should be delayed there is likelyto be a shortage of cash-

Mr. Scaddan: Not with the present Gov-ernment.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: I donot know whether it is in the StandingOrders, Sir, but I wish to God that youcould put a cork in that man's mouth.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Imust say I think the Minister is inviting theinterruption.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Any-how I am getting it. However, I shall go-through with this teak if I have to standhere all night. Although this clause istaken from the Act it is not a bad clause.The gentlemen opposite are endeavouringto prevent the public getting the information

it is entitled to. If dust were to be thrownin the eyes of private shareholders in theway it was thrown into the eyes of thepublic by the gentlemen opposite, and thesame process of law could be taken, thosegentlemen would not be here to-night. Thedirectors of any private company who triedto throw dust, as the hon. gentlemen did,would have to be dealt with differently fromthe way in which members of Parliament aredealt with.

.1r. Angwin: Tile balance sheet you issuedshows that the position is very different fromthat.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: If itshould happen that the funds that have tobe collected do not come in fast enough toprovide sufficient liquid funds to enable theconcerns lo g-o on-or in regard to other con-cerns, such as the saw mills or the State im-plement works-where it is necessary to pro-duce stock to keep tile mn working, theTreasurer has an opportunity of findingsufficient funds to enable this to he done.

Air. Scaddan: Well, did I aot do so?

The 1-ISTER FOR WORKS: I donot think tile hion. gentleman would do any-thing. His transactions in the Nevanas caseshow tIhat hie knows nothing.

Mr. Seaddan: And yours in respect tothe Black Swan Foundry-

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Theywere honest.

IMr. Scaddan: At all events mine were asgood as yours.

The MlINISTER FOR WORKS: Thenext clause deals with profit and loss accountand provides that if there should he anyexcessive profits not required in the busi-ness the Treasurer can have them paid intoConsolidated Revenue. I expect every mem-ber devoutly hopes that such a position ofaffairs will come about.

Air. Munsie: The Treasurer has had a fairamount out of them up to date.

Mr. Angwin:- Would it not be better topay that into a suspense account?

Tile MINISTER FOR. WORKS: Thenext three clauses are practically the sameas the sections appearing in the Act.As hon. members opposite do not wish tohave them referred to, I will pass themby. The next clause, in part, represents an

[15 NOVMnn, 1916.] 953

old section, but contains considerable newmatter dealing with the Auditor General.While the clause retains to the AuditorGeneral all the powers he exercises underthe Audit Act of 1904, it also enables himto carry on a continuous audit, or a con-tinuous investigation, if he so desires. Incertain resJpects the provisions of the AuditAct do not apply to these business concerns.On that point I will give an explanationlater. The present clause will enable Statebusinesses to deal with the changing situa-tions of buying and selling pnd mainu,factoring. As things are Linder the AuditAct, the moneys allocated to the tradingconcerns can be applied only to purp)oseswhich are specifically stated. Thus, if itshould happen in the conduct of the businessthat the scope of those purposes has notbeen made sufficiently broad, either thebusiness is hampered and checked or elsean apparent illegality has to take place.In the latter case thie Auditor General iscompelled to report infractions of theAudit Act or of the regulations thereunder,and step~s have to be taken to free thoseresponsible from the consequences. ifthe clause is passed, it will allowv the Statebusinesses to be conducted exactly on thesamne system as private businesses; andthus a great many shackling conditionsapplying to other departments-which con-ditions no doubt are necessary, being in theAudit Act, but which check and hamper, bytheir want of elasticity, the conduct oftrading concerns-will be abolished. . It islaid down here as mandatory that thie Audi-tor General shall arange for a periodical ora continuous audit of the accounts; and Ibelieve be has already adopted that coursewith several trading concerns, if not withall of them.

Mr. Angwin: I hope the Auditor Generalwill be able to give better reports than hehas been giving in the past.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: I sin-eerely join in that hope. I had consider-able experience of Mr. Spencer and of thepresent Auditor General when I was Com-missioner of Railways, and I found theregulations under the Audit Act very irk-some. The regulations under the Audit Actare not adapted for carrying on buying and

selling concerns such as the implement worksand the State sawmills.

Mr. Angwin: The Auditor General oughtto be able to tell, when money is spent, whatit has been spent on; but he cannot do it.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: The ex-isting Act provides that annual accountsshall be submitted to Parliament. Underthis Bill it is proposed that the accountsshall he laid before both Houses of Parlia-ment on or before the 30th September ineach year, if Parliament is then sitting, orelse early in the next ensuing session.

Mr. Collier: They have not been able todo that in past years.

"The MINISTER FOR WORKS: I amnot blamning the Government in that respect.Naturally, there are difficulties. This year'ye met those difficulties by placing whatwere practically unaudited balance sheets onthe Table of the House.

Mr. Seaddan: That is not right.The MINISTER FOR WORKS: The

object was to give information to bion, mem-bers. It was expressly stated that the ac-counts had not been audited, and that theywere laid on the Table only for the purposeof giving lion, members early information.1. have not got the accounts audited yet.

Mr. Scaddan: But what will happen inthe event of the Audit Department not beingable to comply with this clause?

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: In thatcase the accounts will have to be broughlt induring the next ensuing session.

Mr. Scaddan: But, in that case, why havethe clause at all?

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Becausewe think it is necessary. The hon. gentle-inan can knock it out if he likes.

The Premier: It is the same as in thearticles of association of a company, whichprovide that there must be an annual meet-ing before a specified date.

Mr. W. D. Johnson: And if that annualmeting is not held, what happens?

The Premier: There might be troublethen-an action at law, perhaps.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: I be-lieve-possibly I am too hopeful-that theaudited accounts will be laid on the Tableof the House next session before the 30th

[ASSEMBLY.]

September. Every effort will be made todo it, and 1 think it will be accomplished.

Mr. Seadd an: Why was it not done thisyear I

The MINISTER FOR WORKS:- Becauseothe lion, gentleman retained office so muchlongyer than we desired him, and so we hadnot time or a proper opportunity. The boa.gentleman has been absent from the Housefor some time, and hie evidently has not readup the recordls. I advise him to study them.

Mr. Seaddan: But the Auditor Generalmakes the report.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Exactly.Mlr. Scaddan: And you do not control

him.The MINISTER FOR WORKS: No: 'but

we gekhiis loyal assistance.Mr. Seaddan: The report is not here now.The MTINISTER FOR WORKS: A copy

was laid on my table to-day.Mir. Seaddan: It is not here now; and

this is November--not the 30th September.The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Things

got into such a slough of despond.Mr. W. D. Johnson: The Auditor Gen-

eral's, Department are slow and incompetent,are they t

The MINISTER FOR WORKS,. Arethey?

Mr. W. D. Johnson: You implied that.The MINISTER FOR WORKS: I did

not say anything of the sort. I do not wantwords put into my mouth.

Mn. W. D. Johnson: The Auditor Gen-eral is the servant of this House and notyour servant.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: I knowthat. The hon. gentleman is agin attempt-ig to put words into my mouth. Clause 26deals with thie transfer of assets, providingfor the event of the neicessity of adiustmentbetween one department and another. It isperfectly clear and requires no explanation.A elaLiSe Which I will have to leavefor a moment is the clause empower-jugp the Government to dispose of assets.The remaining clauses explain themselvesclearly. There is en arrangement underwhich the Treasurer acts as arbitrator inthe event of a dispute between a tradingconcern and a Government A epartment.There is also power provided for the Gov-

ernor-in-Couneil to make regulations for thecarrying out of the provisions of this mea-sure.

Mr. AV. D. Johnson: Now Clause 25,That settles it. There are no other clauses.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Clause25 provides that the trading concerns maybe sold. The policy of the late Governmentwas to establish these trading concerns. Thepolicy of the present Government is not toestablish trading concerns under the sameconditions as thle old Government did. Thepolicy of the present Government is to dis-pose of' those trading- concerns to the bestadvanta ge in the interests of the whole ofthe country. If we can sell them advantage-ously-and the conditions are being ar-ranged 11ow--

Mr. Scaddan: Why do you not makeprovision here for disposal of the fundswhich will result from the sale of the trad-ing concerns? What will you do with themoney wyhen you sell the concerns?

The M1INISTER FOR WORKS: Let theleader of the Opposition turn to Clause 26.The necessary provision is wade there.However, if anything has 'been omitted fromthe Bill, I shall be glad to have the hon.gentleman's assistance. I ask for assistance,and not for carping criticism.

Mr. Munsie: Why do not you give Par-liament. ain opportunity oif saying whetherthe trading concerns should be disposed ofor not?

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: That isa debatable question, which the bon. mem-her can raise when the time comes. TheGovernment intend to sell the trading con-cerns, at the same time conserving the bestinterests of the State. If the Governmentcannot sell them, they want to lease them.If they cannot lease them, the trading con-cerns must be carried on, hut not under thesa me sy' stem of management as at presentobtaining.

Mr. -MUnsie: f know who will get thebrickworks, anyhow.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: It willhe the business of the Government, if we aregivenL the power, to frame a scheme for thecarrying on of these business concerns inthe best interests of the State. The schemewill, if necessary, be submitted to Parlia-ment. I do not engage that it will he sub-

[15 Novvmnna, 1916.]95

mitted, however. A scheme will have to heprepared to alter the arrangcmcnt underwhich the trading concerns are carried onat the present time. It is absolutely silly toexpect any Minister to take over a hugeconcern like the State sawmills, and occupythe responsible position of general manager,and carry on such a concern-with all hisother duties and the other business concerns-and come out with anything like successor with any beneft to the State.

Mr. Munsie: No one has expected theMinister to do that in the past.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Wemust put the management on a proper basis.

Mr. O'Loglileu: You have a general man-ager of the State sawmills.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Wemust have a schemne by which the interestsof the State will be adequately conserved.If the State sawmills belongZed to the timbercombine or to any big timber people, andthe concern required reorganising, the pro-prietors would never dream of appointingto the managership anyone who could notgive practically the wvhole of his time andenergy to it. 'With the trading concerns asthey are to-day, we expect the 'Minister-who may have sonic experience, or may not;,that is a quiestion on which members mustform their own opinion-to take charge ofsuch enterprises as the implement works, theState sawmills, And the brickworks, with. Atotal capitalisation of one and a-quartermillions. The Minister is expected, by meansof occasional visits, to carry on those con-cerns properly. That is absolutely unfairto the State. It is unreasonable to make suchdemands on the Mtinister, and it is not inthe interests of the trading concerns them-sielves.

M1r. Munsie: The capitalisation is not ]%millions.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: I see Ihave made a little mistake of £18,000. Thehon. member would not make me a liar forthat amount.

Mr. Munsie: It is more than that.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Thecapital grand total is £1,232,331.

Mr. Munsie: You said a million and a-quarter for three of them.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Thereare 10 concerns there.

Mr. M lunsie: You mentioned three.The Premier: He did not say three.Mr. Mansie: He did.The MINISTER FOR WORKS: I will

not quarrel with the hion. member. Letme take the three concerns, the sawmills, thebrickworks, And the implement works. Thetota] capita] of these is BS00,000. I say thatit is silly to expect a Minister with limitedtime at his disposal to give full and neces-sary attention to the supervision and the dir-ection of concerns such as those with a eapi-to]l of £800,000.

Mr. M1onsie: They have a manager.

The WMINISTERI FOR WORKS: Exactly,but the responsibility has to he taken by theMlinister. WVhen the member for North-EastFremantle, Air. Angwin, occupied the posi-tion of the M Ninister for Works, he lookedupon those concerns as I am doing, namely,with a sense of personal responsibility. Noone will deny that. The hon. member wasinterested in them as far as his experiencewent, lust as muich as I am interested inthem as far as my experience goes. And itis impossible to expect a 11inister to assumeresponsibility in regard to those three con-cerns, with a capital of £800,000, bearing inmind the very limited time a Minister of theGrown has to devote to such institutions.

Mir. Collier: Look at the capital involvedin the railway system.

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Thehon. member is drawing a parallel whichdoes not apply. The railway business iscontrolled by a Commissioner, who devotesthe whole of the time at his disposal to theconcern.

Mr. Scaddan: What is the capital; aboutEI16,000,000 9

The MINISTER FOR WORKS: Thatdoes not matter. fluring the time I wasCommissioner of Railways I made an effortto bring about a hoard of three to control therailways, and I still think that three com-missioners are necessary to conduct that con-cern. But the point I am trying to make isthat the Commissioner is able to devote thewhole of his time to the management of therailway system, and be does tnot have toattend Parliament. I have tried as far asI can to give an honest explanatioii of the

955

[COUNCIL.]

Bill as it appears to me. The measure has tobe divided practically into three parts. Thereis the continuance of the present affairs,there may he the addition of others, andthere is the putting of the bookkeeping andfinancial affairs unuder a proper form, whilethere is also the question which hon. membersmay debate amongst themselves regardingthe disposal of those concerns.

Mr. Foley: Which hat is the pea under?The MINISTER FOR WORKS: I do not

know wvhat the lion. member means.Mr. Thomas: He reckons you are playing

the political thimble and pea game.Mr. Heiitmaun: It is the first ltime you

have been beaten.The MIlNISTER FOR WORKS: I do not

know anything about it. The Bill is therefor lion, members to consider. I hare triedto make a clear statement of the position.I move--

That the Bill be now read a second time.Mr. ANOWIN (North-East Fremantle)

[10.5]: 1 move-[That the debate be adjourned to Tues-

day, 21st November.Motion put, and a division taken with the

following result-Ayes .. - .14

Noes is.. .. 1

Majority against

AYES.

Mr.Mr.Mr.Mr.Mr.BIr.Mr.Mr.

AngwlnCarpenterCbesroriCollierFoleyGreenHeltrnannHolman

Mr. ButcherMr. ConnollyMr. GardinerMr. OeorgeMr. HarrisonMt. LcfroyM r. MaleMr. Nairn

Alr.Mr.Mr.Mr.Air.Mr.

W. 1). .TobnsonAlualeScuddanThomaLsUnderwoodTaylor

(Teller.)

NOES.

Mr. FleeceMr. flobineonMr. SwitbMr. S. StubbsMr. WansbrougbMr. F. WilsonM r. Hardwick

(Teller.)

Motion thus negatived.On motion by Mr. Seaddan, debate ad-

journed.

House adjourned at 10.10 p-im.

leoiative Cowicil,Thursday, 161h Novem?1ber, 1916.

.. .. 956956

The PRESIDENT took the Chair at 4.30pam., and read prayers.

PAPERS PRESENTED.By the Colonial Secretary: 1, Return of

Insurance Companies. 2, Alines RegulationAct new general rules.

BILL-WHEAT' MARKETING.

Second Reading.

Debate resumned from the previous day.Ron. C. SO-MMERS (Metropolitan)

[4.36)]: The excellent speech delivered byMr. Baxter on this Bill last night, I think,made the mneasure thoroughly familiar tomembers. Air. Baxter pointed out manydefects in the Bill and put forward a goodcase for a select committee. I have muchpleasure in supporting the appointment ofone. The dealings of the pool with the lastharvest disclosed many detects, and we wishto avoid the mistakes of the past. As it isimpossible in the time at our disposal todeal with this Bill in ordinary Committee,I think the only way to meet the wishes ofthe producers, and also those of the con-sumers who are interested in the establish-ment of the pool, is to refer the measureto a select committee. These pools, I mayremark, seem to have come to stay. I un-derstand it is the desire of the producersge nerally that there should be some unifor-mity in the agreements existing in thevarious States. I support the Bill, and shallhave pleasure in supporting also the ap-pointment of a select committee. I know theGovernment are anxious that the measureshould go through as quickly as possible.The Mlinister for Industries (Ron. J. MAit-chell) is aow in the Eastern States in con-nection with this matter, and he, natuirally,is anxious that the Bill should go through.

Papers presented .. .. .. ..Bills;z Wbeat Marketing, 2a., selec. corn.

Framichpsa, corn