How to Talk to Children How to Talk to Children & The Ethics of Reporting & The Ethics of Reporting

What They SayWhat They SayMarolyn Morford, Ph.D., Marolyn Morford, Ph.D., State College, PAState College, PA

Steven Cohen, Ph.D., Steven Cohen, Ph.D., Southhampton, PASouthhampton, PA

Kathryn Vennie, M.S., Kathryn Vennie, M.S., Hawley, PAHawley, PA

PPA Fall Workshop, November 6, 2009

Exton, PA

Viewable online at:Viewable online at:

http://docs.google.com/present/edit?http://docs.google.com/present/edit?id=0AVdC8LMi72UwZGNkenpmNF82Mid=0AVdC8LMi72UwZGNkenpmNF82M

GoalsGoals

Types of interview contextsTypes of interview contexts Ethical issues in gathering informationEthical issues in gathering information Factors that influence what the child Factors that influence what the child

says and what we understand they've says and what we understand they've saidsaid

Ethical issues in using the informationEthical issues in using the information

Why we interview childrenWhy we interview children

Clinical purposesClinical purposes• Assessment/DiagnosisAssessment/Diagnosis• Treatment PlanningTreatment Planning• Rapport/relationshipRapport/relationship

Why we interview childrenWhy we interview children

Forensic purposes: Civil or CriminalForensic purposes: Civil or Criminal• Answer a question that has legal Answer a question that has legal

implicationsimplications Child Custody, Personal Injury (school bus Child Custody, Personal Injury (school bus

accidents, bad dentist experience), Crime, accidents, bad dentist experience), Crime, Sexual abuseSexual abuse

How we interview childrenHow we interview children

General guidelinesGeneral guidelines Methods of recordingMethods of recording

• Hand/typewritten recordingHand/typewritten recording• Audio recordingAudio recording• Video recordingVideo recording

StrategiesStrategies

• Arrange to meet a young child first Arrange to meet a young child first in the company of a parent or in the company of a parent or familiar adult if possiblefamiliar adult if possible

• The actual interview should take The actual interview should take place with only the child and the place with only the child and the interviewer in the room.interviewer in the room.

• Employ a warm, open style of Employ a warm, open style of communicating with the child.communicating with the child.

• Begin the interview with a general Begin the interview with a general explanation of the nature and purpose explanation of the nature and purpose of the interview.of the interview.

• As the child some general questions As the child some general questions which are appropriate to the child's which are appropriate to the child's age.age.

• Be sure to clarify any concerns the Be sure to clarify any concerns the child may have.child may have.

• Avoid ambiguity in questions and Avoid ambiguity in questions and clarify ambiguityclarify ambiguity

• Be aware of evidence of coachingBe aware of evidence of coaching• Stick as closely as possible to the Stick as closely as possible to the

purpose of the interview and nature of purpose of the interview and nature of the case (clinical or forensic).the case (clinical or forensic).

Interviewing ..Interviewing ..

Involves hypothesis testingInvolves hypothesis testing Is Child CenteredIs Child Centered

Poole & Lamb, 2002

Hypothesis testingHypothesis testing

Not wed to one outcome of interviewNot wed to one outcome of interview Open to multiple possibilities: What Open to multiple possibilities: What

other explanation might there be (for other explanation might there be (for this behavior, for this statement)?this behavior, for this statement)?

Aware of cognitive bias possibilities, Aware of cognitive bias possibilities, for example, confirmation bias, for example, confirmation bias, illusory correlations, availability illusory correlations, availability heuristicheuristic

Has anything happened?Has anything happened? If so, what happened? Who was If so, what happened? Who was

involved?involved? Is the child use (understanding) of Is the child use (understanding) of

terms the same as adult use? Is terms the same as adult use? Is there some other meaning the term there some other meaning the term may have for the child?may have for the child?

Does this event address the concern? Does this event address the concern? Is there any relationship?Is there any relationship?

Aware of the context of the Aware of the context of the interviewinterview::• Demand characteristicsDemand characteristics• How many prior interviews of what How many prior interviews of what

quality?quality? Quest for information from child that Quest for information from child that

does not require interpretation and is does not require interpretation and is unambiguousunambiguous

Use of methods that have been Use of methods that have been scrutinized vs. validated in scrutinized vs. validated in experimental or field researchexperimental or field research

Child FocusedChild Focused

Aware of child language Aware of child language development (use and development (use and comprehension)comprehension)

Aware of child cognitive development Aware of child cognitive development (memory, ability to recount an event, (memory, ability to recount an event, understanding of other’s needs)understanding of other’s needs)

In environment that puts child at In environment that puts child at ease but does not encourage fantasy ease but does not encourage fantasy play or distractibilityplay or distractibility

Awareness of Child LanguageAwareness of Child Language

PragmaticsPragmatics Phonological DevelopmentPhonological Development VocabularyVocabulary SyntaxSyntax Question words/types of Question words/types of

questionsquestions

Pragmatics of talking to childrenPragmatics of talking to children

•Adults make reasonable requestsAdults make reasonable requests• I try to respond and please an adult I try to respond and please an adult

if I canif I can•What an adult says makes sense What an adult says makes sense

(even if it’s convoluted for an adult (even if it’s convoluted for an adult to understand)to understand)

•Adults know (almost) everythingAdults know (almost) everything•Lack of understanding of what an Lack of understanding of what an

adult needs to know to understandadult needs to know to understand•Limited narrative structureLimited narrative structure

What to listen forWhat to listen for Phonology – use of soundsPhonology – use of sounds

• Children simplify consonant clusters Children simplify consonant clusters (pusgetti, soos, peas) and leave off (pusgetti, soos, peas) and leave off ending sounds [ba(ll), no(se)]ending sounds [ba(ll), no(se)]

• Sounds that are voiced (b, d) are easier Sounds that are voiced (b, d) are easier than unvoiced (p, t), glides (w, y) area than unvoiced (p, t), glides (w, y) area easier than liquids (l, r): ‘whips’ or ‘yips’ easier than liquids (l, r): ‘whips’ or ‘yips’ for lips.for lips.

If you don’t understand or aren’t sure, If you don’t understand or aren’t sure, ask the child to repeat or to show youask the child to repeat or to show you

Vocabulary: things to knowVocabulary: things to know

Children may Children may overextend overextend a word (‘daddy’ a word (‘daddy’ refers to all males), or refers to all males), or underextendunderextend a word a word (‘doggie’ refers only to child’s pet)(‘doggie’ refers only to child’s pet)

As a result, children may use or As a result, children may use or understand words idiosyncratically, understand words idiosyncratically, especially category words, such as especially category words, such as ‘clothes’ (does this include bathing suit? ‘clothes’ (does this include bathing suit? Underwear?)Underwear?)

Use basic terms (dog, shoe) rather than Use basic terms (dog, shoe) rather than superordinatesuperordinate terms (animal, clothing) terms (animal, clothing)

Use noun phrases, not pronouns (he, it) or Use noun phrases, not pronouns (he, it) or other referential (deictic) terms (there, other referential (deictic) terms (there, here); repeat noun phrases whenever here); repeat noun phrases whenever possible – practice thispossible – practice this

Vague noun phrases may seem specific to Vague noun phrases may seem specific to child: Did ‘anyone’ else come in? Did child: Did ‘anyone’ else come in? Did ‘anything else’ happen? May be incorrectly ‘anything else’ happen? May be incorrectly answered ‘no’.answered ‘no’.

Prepositions can be confusing since they Prepositions can be confusing since they are based on context and don’t have a are based on context and don’t have a fixed meaning: ‘in’ a child’s body may be fixed meaning: ‘in’ a child’s body may be different for child than for adult. (Child different for child than for adult. (Child has no concept of interior anatomy).has no concept of interior anatomy).

Problems with words for actionsProblems with words for actions

‘‘touch’ – child may understand this touch’ – child may understand this meaning as for hands onlymeaning as for hands only

‘‘move’ may not be understood by move’ may not be understood by childchild

Actor and agent may be clear for Actor and agent may be clear for child and muddled for adult for child and muddled for adult for certain verbs, e.g., ‘put’:certain verbs, e.g., ‘put’:

Def. Atty: And then you said you put your Def. Atty: And then you said you put your mouth on his penis?mouth on his penis?

Child: NoChild: No Def. Atty: You didn’t say that?Def. Atty: You didn’t say that? Child: NoChild: No …… Def Atty: Well, why did you tell your Def Atty: Well, why did you tell your

mother that you dad put his penis in your mother that you dad put his penis in your mouth?mouth?

Child: My brother told me to.Child: My brother told me to.

Pros. Atty: J., you said that you didn’t put Pros. Atty: J., you said that you didn’t put your mouth on daddy’s penis. Is that right?your mouth on daddy’s penis. Is that right?

Child: YesChild: Yes P.A.: Did daddy put his penis in your P.A.: Did daddy put his penis in your

mouth?mouth? Child: YesChild: Yes ...... P.A. What made you decide to tell?P.A. What made you decide to tell? Child: My brother & I talked about it, & he Child: My brother & I talked about it, & he

said I better tell or dad would just keep said I better tell or dad would just keep doing it.doing it.

From Berliner and Barbieri (1984), p. 132, cited in Poole & Lamb (2002)

Number & TimeNumber & Time Number acquisition occurs in stages.Number acquisition occurs in stages.

• Number Number namesnames (1, 3, 8): numbers as a list (1, 3, 8): numbers as a list• Number names in Number names in orderorder (1, 2, 3, 4..) (1, 2, 3, 4..)• Understanding Understanding one to one correspondenceone to one correspondence: :

one number per one objectone number per one object; later still: ; later still: one one number per one eventnumber per one event

• Simple distinction: ‘one’ and ‘more than Simple distinction: ‘one’ and ‘more than one’:“You said he came into your room. Did one’:“You said he came into your room. Did that happen one time or more than one time?” that happen one time or more than one time?” Then, “tell me about the time you remember Then, “tell me about the time you remember the best”the best”

TimeTime

Like number, time is understood gradually.Like number, time is understood gradually. Being able to recite days of week does not Being able to recite days of week does not

mean child understands the name mean child understands the name Tuesday applied to a certain day.Tuesday applied to a certain day.

‘‘Yesterday’ may mean ‘not today’, some Yesterday’ may mean ‘not today’, some time in the past.time in the past.

Use meaningful time markers, such as Use meaningful time markers, such as holidays, breakfast time, nighttime, school holidays, breakfast time, nighttime, school day, what tv show was onday, what tv show was on

Time as Time as sequencesequence of events of events

Before/AfterBefore/After• Children understand questions about the Children understand questions about the

natural sequence of events (What natural sequence of events (What happened after you ate breakfast?) happened after you ate breakfast?) rather than out of order (Before you ate rather than out of order (Before you ate breakfast, did you tell your brother?)breakfast, did you tell your brother?)

• To indicate sequence, use ‘first’ instead To indicate sequence, use ‘first’ instead of ‘before’of ‘before’

SyntaxSyntax

Avoid passive voice: ‘Was your mom Avoid passive voice: ‘Was your mom bothered by Joey?’ – this can be bothered by Joey?’ – this can be interpreted as Subj-V-Obj: ‘Your mom interpreted as Subj-V-Obj: ‘Your mom bothered Joey’bothered Joey’

Embedded clauses are confusing or Embedded clauses are confusing or misinterpreted: ‘Was the boy misinterpreted: ‘Was the boy who who was wearing a red hatwas wearing a red hat touching you?’ touching you?’

Use Subj-V-Object statements and Use Subj-V-Object statements and questions whenever possiblequestions whenever possible

Wh- QuestionsWh- Questions

Who, What, Where understood first, Who, What, Where understood first, but there can still be problems:but there can still be problems:

Example:Example:• A: What are you going to eat with it?A: What are you going to eat with it?• C: A fork.C: A fork.

When, Why, How understood laterWhen, Why, How understood later

Problems with ‘why’ questionsProblems with ‘why’ questions

Objective: ‘Why is the sky blue?’ ‘Why is Objective: ‘Why is the sky blue?’ ‘Why is your leg red?’your leg red?’

Subjective: ‘Why do you say the sky is Subjective: ‘Why do you say the sky is blue?’ ‘Why did you go to the hospital?’blue?’ ‘Why did you go to the hospital?’

Pragmatic/situational demands: ‘why’ is Pragmatic/situational demands: ‘why’ is often part of a criticism, asking for often part of a criticism, asking for justificationjustification

Cognitive demands: time, social Cognitive demands: time, social understanding, interviewer’s intentions, understanding, interviewer’s intentions, etc. (complexity of assumptions)etc. (complexity of assumptions)

Problems with ‘How’ questionsProblems with ‘How’ questions

‘‘How long’ = time conceptHow long’ = time concept ‘‘How often/how many times’ = How often/how many times’ =

numbernumber ‘‘How come he did that’ = why How come he did that’ = why

conceptconcept

Problems with forced-choice Problems with forced-choice questionsquestions

Recency effects: last item mentioned may Recency effects: last item mentioned may be best remembered and chosenbe best remembered and chosen

When adult offers limited choices, When adult offers limited choices, assumption is that the answer is among assumption is that the answer is among the choices when it may not be therethe choices when it may not be there

Use more than two options.Use more than two options. If only using two options, repeat your If only using two options, repeat your

forced choice questions to vary the orderforced choice questions to vary the order

Nominalizing: Avoid changing a verb Nominalizing: Avoid changing a verb or verb phrase into a noun: “When or verb phrase into a noun: “When was he doing this, touching of you?”was he doing this, touching of you?”

Benefits of interview protocolBenefits of interview protocol

Current protocols are based on Current protocols are based on assessing amount and accuracy of assessing amount and accuracy of information acquiredinformation acquired

Reduction of interviewer bias & Reduction of interviewer bias & contamination contamination • Ethical problems of altering or creating Ethical problems of altering or creating

memories for childmemories for child Increase in accuracyIncrease in accuracy

Structured InterviewStructured Interview

Greet childGreet child Establish rapportEstablish rapport Explain purpose of interview & remind Explain purpose of interview & remind

child not to guess or make things upchild not to guess or make things up Ask child to give free reportAsk child to give free report Ask child if s/he can remember moreAsk child if s/he can remember more QuestioningQuestioning Ask child to remember moreAsk child to remember more Closing (Thanks child for cooperation)Closing (Thanks child for cooperation)

Cognitive InterviewCognitive Interview

IntroductionIntroduction Open ended narrationOpen ended narration Probing (“guiding” to explore Probing (“guiding” to explore

contents of memory)contents of memory) Review (interviewer checks accuracy Review (interviewer checks accuracy

of notes and provides more of notes and provides more opportunities for recall)opportunities for recall)

ClosingClosing

Problems of Cognitive Interview Problems of Cognitive Interview for childrenfor children

General requests for repeated recallGeneral requests for repeated recall• Child might feel pressured to change answers Child might feel pressured to change answers

(If s/he’s asking me again, there must be (If s/he’s asking me again, there must be something different/else I should have said)something different/else I should have said)

Requests to recall in varied temporal Requests to recall in varied temporal ordersorders• Ability varies by age Ability varies by age

Requests to recall from a variety of Requests to recall from a variety of physical perspectivesphysical perspectives• Ability varies by ageAbility varies by agePoole & Lamb, 2002, pp. 88-90.

Examples of Interview ProtocolsExamples of Interview Protocols

Memorandum of Good Practice (UK)Memorandum of Good Practice (UK) APSACAPSAC NICHDNICHD

Memorandum of Good PracticeMemorandum of Good Practice

Phased approach: general to specificPhased approach: general to specific Rapport buildingRapport building Free narrative Free narrative Open-ended questionsOpen-ended questions Specific, nonleading questionsSpecific, nonleading questions Closed questionsClosed questions Leading questions (rare)Leading questions (rare) ClosureClosure

Home Office & Dept.. Of Health, England & Wales, 1992, cited in Poole & Lamb, 2002, p. 100.

American Professional Society on American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children Guidelines the Abuse of Children Guidelines

(APSAC)(APSAC)

Interview of primary caretaker for Interview of primary caretaker for background information & collateral background information & collateral infoinfo

Open-ended questionsOpen-ended questions Specific questions (as necessary)Specific questions (as necessary)

NICHD InterviewNICHD Interview Introductions (names, roles)Introductions (names, roles) Rapport building, establish context, Rapport building, establish context,

explain nature of interview, model relaxed explain nature of interview, model relaxed atmosphere, allowing child time to atmosphere, allowing child time to respondrespond

Distinguish if child understands Truth & Distinguish if child understands Truth & Lies (Fantasy/Pretend) difference.Lies (Fantasy/Pretend) difference.

Ground Rules (OK to say ‘I don’t know’ or Ground Rules (OK to say ‘I don’t know’ or ‘what do you mean?’ or ‘I don’t know what ‘what do you mean?’ or ‘I don’t know what that word is’ and resisting ‘tricky’ that word is’ and resisting ‘tricky’ questionsquestions

Rapport building with practice interview Rapport building with practice interview about neutral event, establish level of about neutral event, establish level of child’s recounting abilitychild’s recounting ability

Introduce the topicIntroduce the topic Free recall/narrativeFree recall/narrative Questioning/clarification (use guides): less Questioning/clarification (use guides): less

directive toward more directivedirective toward more directive Closure (neutral topics, thank child for Closure (neutral topics, thank child for

coming, provide contact information)coming, provide contact information)

Guide for questionsGuide for questions

Open-ended prompts:Open-ended prompts:• Tell me everything you can about Tell me everything you can about

(introduced topic)(introduced topic)• Start with the first thing you remember Start with the first thing you remember

and tell me everything you think of even and tell me everything you think of even if it doesn’t seem importantif it doesn’t seem important

• You said he took you to the car. Tell me You said he took you to the car. Tell me all about the car.all about the car.

Specific but nonleading questions:Specific but nonleading questions:• Ask for details about topics mentioned Ask for details about topics mentioned

by the child (You said he wanted to by the child (You said he wanted to show you something in the car. What did show you something in the car. What did he show you in the car?)he show you in the car?)

• Who gets up first in the morning?Who gets up first in the morning? Closed questions: limited options, Closed questions: limited options,

forced choice, yes/no (preferable to forced choice, yes/no (preferable to offer more than two options)offer more than two options)

Explicitly leading questions:Explicitly leading questions:• Your mom told me somebody spanks Your mom told me somebody spanks

you and hits you. (no reply) Is your dad you and hits you. (no reply) Is your dad hitting you?hitting you?

• Your teacher told me somebody Your teacher told me somebody touched you and you didn’t like it. Did touched you and you didn’t like it. Did your ‘pawpaw’ touch you?your ‘pawpaw’ touch you?

Do’s and Don’t’sDo’s and Don’t’s

Do appear relaxed and do not show Do appear relaxed and do not show surprise or emotion at statements or surprise or emotion at statements or behaviors of childbehaviors of child

Express interest and attentionExpress interest and attention Give minimal vocal cues of Give minimal vocal cues of

encouragement: “mmhm”, “go on”encouragement: “mmhm”, “go on” Watch out for selective Watch out for selective

reinforcement of some statements reinforcement of some statements only: either give neutral feedback or only: either give neutral feedback or none at all, or the same to all none at all, or the same to all (nodding to encourage).(nodding to encourage).

Do use short words, concrete wordsDo use short words, concrete words Do use short sentences, without Do use short sentences, without

multiple clausesmultiple clauses Use Subj-Verb-Ojb questions when Use Subj-Verb-Ojb questions when

possiblepossible Be careful with When, Why, & How Be careful with When, Why, & How

QuestionsQuestions Follow guidelines when asking about Follow guidelines when asking about

Number & TimeNumber & Time

Don’t give qualitative feedback Don’t give qualitative feedback “good”, “right” “that must have been “good”, “right” “that must have been scary” ”that must have hurt”scary” ”that must have hurt”

Don’t offer breaks or refreshments as Don’t offer breaks or refreshments as an incentive to ‘finish up’ or answer a an incentive to ‘finish up’ or answer a few more questionsfew more questions

Don’t touch childDon’t touch child Don’t ask child to demonstrate Don’t ask child to demonstrate

events that require clothing removalevents that require clothing removal

Don’t phrase something to child you Don’t phrase something to child you didn’t hear clearly: ask child to didn’t hear clearly: ask child to repeat, don’t ask, e.g., “did you say repeat, don’t ask, e.g., “did you say ‘X’?”, ask “Could you say that again, ‘X’?”, ask “Could you say that again, I didn’t hear what you said?”I didn’t hear what you said?”

Don’t ask “Do you understand?” How Don’t ask “Do you understand?” How would they know if they didn’t? Ask would they know if they didn’t? Ask them to repeat back what they heard them to repeat back what they heard you say.you say.

Ethics of Using What They SayEthics of Using What They Say

Informed consent for children with Informed consent for children with and without court-ordered and without court-ordered

evaluations: evaluations:

How to explain your role to a How to explain your role to a child/children when you begin to child/children when you begin to

interview them  interview them 

How do you explain the limits on How do you explain the limits on confidentiality?confidentiality?

How do you explain to the child if you How do you explain to the child if you record the interview?record the interview?

““I don’t want to tell you because I I don’t want to tell you because I don’t want my parents to find out”don’t want my parents to find out”

How do you explain your role if a How do you explain your role if a child asks if you will tell mom and child asks if you will tell mom and dad what s/he has said? dad what s/he has said?

Do psychologists feel a dual role Do psychologists feel a dual role sharing information with the parents sharing information with the parents or, in a forensic matter, sharing with or, in a forensic matter, sharing with the court as the client? the court as the client?

   How do you protect a child from the How do you protect a child from the

repercussions of what s/he has said? repercussions of what s/he has said?

How do you explain how you will How do you explain how you will report the child’s statements? report the child’s statements?

How do you handle this differently for How do you handle this differently for younger children and teens?younger children and teens?

If you are in a jurisdiction in which the If you are in a jurisdiction in which the court expects/requires you to make court expects/requires you to make specific recommendations, do you explain specific recommendations, do you explain this role vis-a-vis information gathering this role vis-a-vis information gathering and decision making?   and decision making?   

How do we report what they say?How do we report what they say?• ExamplesExamples

What do we pick and choose to What do we pick and choose to quote?quote?

The presence of video/audio The presence of video/audio recording: permissionsrecording: permissions

What is our ethical responsibility at What is our ethical responsibility at this point?this point?