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Yesterday, 01:47 PM

Join Date:Location:Posts:My Cars:

Dec 2006Los Angeles, CA

3,010'00 528iT/5 & 2003

M3

E31 Parts Value Questions

Hi Everyone,

So I've had a monster 8 series project ideafor the longest time that I think I'm finallygoing to take on.

What is the value of a good running, lowmileage M70, with a strong transmission,and a matching cluster?

How much is a clean, complete interiorworth, including the dash and the centerconsole?

Reason I'm asking is I basically want to takethe 8 series shell and start over with it. Iwant to save a good amount of weight,mainly from the interior, motor,transmission, and possibly the entiresuspension. The plan is to get a fiberglassmold of the factory dash and center console,put in 2 bucket seats, custom aluminumdoor panels, lightweight after market carpet,all sound deadening removed, etc. I don'twant to go full race car, but just a verylightweight, minimalistic E31, that's bothstreetable and ready for the track.

For suspension I would either switch to acomplete E46 M3 suspension, withsubframes, or an E9x non-M set-up. I think Ican safely get the E31 down to 3,500lbs orless, which is around the weight of both thee46 m3 or the e9x, so the suspension shouldwork well for my application. I would get a

#1

Membere30polak

Forum

custom quick ratio manual hot-rod stylesteering rack and pinion, and probably anE36 or E46 M3 steering column.

Motor wise I will either go LSX or big turboS52.

Essentially I want to build the next moddedGTR, C6 Z06, 997 Turbo killer for 1/2 mileairstrip events. But I also want the car to bean animal on the road course.

Any help would on realistic part valueswould be much appreciated. I essentiallywant to build something similar to the red 8series race car that's powered by thesupercharged aluminum m52, but heavierand with MUCH more power.

I'm no noob to building highlymodified/motor swapped/forced inductioncars, and money isn't too big of a concern.I'm not here to waste anyone's time, justwanted some reliable and factual input from

the 8 series community!

Thanks in advance!

Last edited by e30polak; Yesterday at 05:07 PM.

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Yesterday, 02:10 PM

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Dec 2007Dallas, TX

8,029'93 850Ci- Daily

Drivers

All I can say is good luck with that!There have been a few LSx conversions, there have been several attempts at shaving off someweight, but you need to keep in mind that almost 100% of the parts on this car are E31-specific.There would be a lot of fabrication. As for using the suspension from an M3, you won't save anyweight here, as the individual components basically are similar in weight - it's like swapping a RedDelicious for a Granny Smith.

#2

Sick Puppy MotorwerksTxGR8White

The E31 is just a heavy GT Luxury cruiser - trying to drop 1000 pounds is very ambitious...

'93 850Ci 251,002 miles'93 850Ci 125,500 miles

...the price of cool ain't cheap!

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Yesterday, 02:26 PM

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Jan 2005Laurel, MD

4,097Driveway Full

Agree with Tx. Losing he first 200 lbs is very easy. it gets exponentially harder after that.

Faisal in Laurel, MD.

1994 BMW 850Ci - Orient Blue/Dove2011 GMC Acadia SLT1-AWD (Winter Daily Driver)2003 Pacific Blue Jaguar ARDEN X-Type2002 Topaz Blue BMW 330Ci (Summer Daily Driver)2010 Platinim Bronze BMW 328Xi (All Season Family car)

Work/Project in progress

#3

Learning to be FasterAhmed303

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Yesterday, 02:50 PM

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Oct 2008Seattle1,374

E31 E38 E65

Stripping and unbalancing car doesnt make for a "better" car my friend.

www.850BMW.com*~*Yamaguchi-gumi Syndicate Member #59,005 *~*

[ Bippu Couture ] ( D_G ) [ FALKEN Tires]

#4

Professional HighSiderDriftGirl

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Yesterday, 03:11 PM

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Mar 2006Orange County, CA

3,2511994 840Ci, 1995

740i

#5

Opinionated Member

olinjohnston1

Translation: "How much money do you think I can get from you guys to help subsidize a project that Iwill likely give up on, and never show you."

We've seen a few of these "potential race 8s" before...

Originally Posted by e30polak

How much is a clean, complete interior worth, including the dash and the centerconsole?

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Yesterday, 03:14 PM

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Dec 2006Sunny Cali,

6,7826.5 second 69

Camaro

The brite side! This type of hacking will eventually just make our cars go up in value as they get to beeven fewer available as possible parts cars.)

#6

Ultimate Machine Driver

8eights

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Yesterday, 03:38 PM

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Dec 2005Santa Ana, CA

73295 740, 97 840, 98

528

Agreed on the hacking 8eights... it is the bright side.Bucket seats... EZAluminum door panels... OKWhat I want to see is the R&R on the dash... I wouldn't volunteer for that misery.I'll get me a 65' Falcon to cut up before I destroy my 8

To each his (or her) own I reckon...

#7

Member840rod

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Yesterday, 03:58 PM

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Apr 2009Vancouver Isl, BC,

Canada1,044

92 850i,92 525,02330i

#8

Memberlegoman67

go buy an e46 m3csl and supercharge it. youd be way further ahead time and money wise for a trackmachine

- 84 325e...M50 swap, GC Coils, New paint,etc (SOLD)- 88 325IX... M52 OBD2 swap, S52 cams, 5 speed (project...future winter toy)- 92 525i (Daily Driver)- 92 850i... CSI kit (Summer toy)- 02 330i... (future daily driver)

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Yesterday, 05:20 PM

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Dec 2006Los Angeles, CA

3,010'00 528iT/5 & 2003

M3

As for E31 specific parts, I'm not interested in keeping pretty much anything from the originalcar aside from the physical body. I'm fully aware of the fabrication required, this isn't somenoobish build. I'm part owner of Castro Motorsport, and we've built a few custom race cars, letalone tons of highly modified, motor-swapped and turbocharged BMWs.

The weight of the M70 is around 500 lbs fully dressed, not including the heavy and massiveautomatic transmission that has to be between 150-200lbs. So drivetrain alone we have 650-700lbs.

I went with a turbo S52, the motor alone is 340 lbs fully dressed (a 160 lb weight savings) - thisamount is with the weight of the A/C bracket, compressor, and the power steering pump andreservoir. All of those would probably equate to 30-40lbs. The turbo set-up would add roughly50-60 lbs to the front of the car, so let's say the total motor and turbo set-up would be between350 - 370 lbs. A fully dressed ZF 5 speed is about 50-60 lbs, or a Getrag 6 speed from an e46m3 would be about 65-80lbs. Therefore, total weight on the motor, transmission and turbo set-up would be between 400 - 450 lbs, depending on transmission choice, flywheel, etc. I wouldalso move the motor and transmission back about 6", for better weight distribution.

Total weight savings for powertrain alone on the s52 set-up would be between 150 - 200 lbs.

The complete LSX + T56 set-up without power steering, or A/C weighs in at around 525 - 540lbs (575 - 590 fully dressed). This is still between 110 - 125 lbs lighter then the M70 set-up. Just

#9

Membere30polak

Originally Posted by TxGR8White

All I can say is good luck with that!There have been a few LSx conversions, there have been several attempts at shavingoff some weight, but you need to keep in mind that almost 100% of the parts on thiscar are E31-specific. There would be a lot of fabrication. As for using the suspensionfrom an M3, you won't save any weight here, as the individual components basicallyare similar in weight - it's like swapping a Red Delicious for a Granny Smith.The E31 is just a heavy GT Luxury cruiser - trying to drop 1000 pounds is veryambitious...

as with the s52 turbo set-up, I would move the motor back between 4-6" for better weightdistribution. Considering the LS motor is 2 cylinders shorter, it would already have betterweight distribution then the M70, sitting in front of the stock firewall.

The factory A/C condenser, fan, and lines have to weigh between 25 - 40 lbs.

Next, I would be doing a custom engine and body wiring harness, for either motor whichwould probably save anywhere between 25 -100 lbs alone. Not sure how heavy the E31 body,engine and transmission harnesses are, but considering the V12 has an electronicallycontrolled transmission, and there are quite a few different modules controlling all theelectrical components which would all be removed, I'd imagine it would all add up to well over50 lbs of weight savings.

If we take at least another 50lbs off for wiring, we're at 225 - 290 lbs of weight saved with thes52 turbo set-up, or 185 - 200 lbs saved with the LSX set-up.

Factory stereo, speakers, amps and wiring would probably make up between 20 - 40 lbs.

Instrument cluster, heating control assembly, heater core, blower motor, wiring for those, etc.would be at least 25 - 40 lbs.

A fiberglass dash and consoles would probably save at least 10-20 lbs. (might just gut thestock dash and center console)

Now to the heavy stuff - the door panels, rear panels, and the seats! The front seats alone haveto weigh around 80-100 lbs or more each plus I'd imagine at least another 50-70lbs between thedoor panels, rear panels, rear deck, rear seat belts, armrest (s) and rear seat. Let's ball park 200- 300 lbs for complete interior. This would be replaced with 2 bucket seats with brackets, thedriver's side having and adjustable slider, along with aluminum door panels and rear panels,etc. The new interior might weigh between 70-100lbs. Total weight savings of between 100 - 230lbs.

The sunroof motor and controls would be removed, not sure if I'd spend the money to get ridof the panel itself, but I figure the motor, sliders, etc, have to weigh at least 10 - 20 lbs.

Lastly, carpet, foam and sound deadening. I'm not familiar with the weight of the stock carpet,or if there's any sound deadening that can be removed, but I'd imagine the carpet on it's ownhas to weigh 30-50 lbs, let alone if there's any serious sound deadening weight.

OK so let's tally up the 2 potential set-ups and their weight savings.

S52 turbo = Approximately 410 lbs - 690 lbs (I think it would realistically be 460 - 520 based onactual weights)

LSX set-up = Approximately 370 lbs - 615 lbs (I think it would realistically be 440 - 500 basedon actual weights)

I was a bit off on my initial goal of 3,500, as I thought the 850 was around 4,000 (which isroughly what the 840 weighs), instead of 4,350. Either way, I think a 450 - 550 lb diet is easilyachievable on the car, with just a different powertrain, and interior removal. This would put thecar at 3800 - 3900 lbs, which is liveable. I know there is probably at least another 100 - 200 lbson the table, but I wouldn't want to guesstimate too much without actual facts.

I'd say the suspension and brakes would be a wash as far as weight, but they would beexponentially better from a handling stand point!

I think my above weights are pretty accurate, the motor and transmission ones are confirmed.The seats and panels alone would make up for the initial 200, let alone the much lighter andbetter balanced motor and transmission set-up.

Originally Posted by Ahmed303

Agree with Tx. Losing he first 200 lbs is very easy. it gets exponentially harder afterthat.

I never gave such a vague blanket statement, however I would be making the car better inmany ways for MY purposes and liking.

From a performance stand point the motor and transmission I choose will be lighter, betterbalanced, much more efficient, and MUCH more potent.

I don't see how I would be UNbalancing the car in any way by the weight reduction I would bedoing. Removing weight makes the car more nimble, it will handle better, and because of mypowertrain and suspension plans the car would be MUCH better balanced in every way from aperformance and handling perspective.

I'm not here to appease the masses, and I'm far from a purist. I recently sold my S54 swappedE30 M3, which got all the s14.net enthusiast's panties in a bunch. I'm simply looking for somerealistic parts values for this project, so I can come up with a realistic budget.

My motivation for this project is to have one of the sexiest looking BMWs ever built, that willout perform most super cars. The fact that wil some fender work you can fit 18x10.5s allaround with 305s, makes the project that much more enticing, especially if I can get it between3500 - 3700 lbs! Couple that with 600-800whp and 500-700wtq, and we have the makings of oneof the craziest, well balanced BMWs PERIOD!

- - - Updated - - -

I could care less If I make a few hundred back on the interior, motor and transmission just formy time of taking them out, which I already plan to do. I'm simply asking a question.

This project is a huge undertaking, but I'm well aware of what's required, and our shop isplenty capable. This won't be some rushed hack job either.

Considering the prices are already pretty low, then I don't mind upping the value of the rest ofyour 8s!

Originally Posted by DriftGirl

Stripping and unbalancing car doesnt make for a "better" car my friend.

Originally Posted by olinjohnston1

Translation: "How much money do you think I can get from you guys to help subsidizea project that I will likely give up on, and never show you."

We've seen a few of these "potential race 8s" before...

Originally Posted by 8eights

The brite side! This type of hacking will eventually just make our cars go up in value asthey get to be even fewer available as possible parts cars.)

Originally Posted by 840rod

Agreed on the hacking 8eights... it is the bright side.Bucket seats... EZAluminum door panels... OKWhat I want to see is the R&R on the dash... I wouldn't volunteer for that misery.I'll get me a 65' Falcon to cut up before I destroy my 8

To each his (or her) own I reckon...

Dash will have to be worth the effort, might just gut the stock dash if the weight savings aren'tworth it.

I already have a lightweight E46 M3 that I'm about to swap an LS6 with 6 speed into. However,that's to develop our E46 M3 LS swap kit, this is more of a dream project I've always wanted.

Last edited by e30polak; Yesterday at 05:23 PM.

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Originally Posted by legoman67

go buy an e46 m3csl and supercharge it. youd be way further ahead time and moneywise for a track machine

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Yesterday, 05:58 PM

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Mar 2011Northern CA

7611997 840, 1998

Volvo S70

Who pissed in your coffee? Sorry, but I feel you are way out of line here. I understand and respectyour desire to preserve a factory car, but this sort of presumptuous behavior doesn't make you a mindreader.

#10

Membertoomanyparts

Originally Posted by olinjohnston1

Translation: "How much money do you think I can get from you guys to help subsidizea project that I will likely give up on, and never show you."

We've seen a few of these "potential race 8s" before...

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Yesterday, 06:36 PM #11

Join Date:Location:Posts:My Cars:

Mar 2006Orange County, CA

3,2511994 840Ci, 1995

740i

I am home sick, and very uncomfortable, so maybe I was too harsh in my wording...but who does hethink his market is going to be for these interior parts? It just seemed like a "what would you pay me"kind of inquiry. Plus, this same track-car-E31 idea is proposed every few months here, with the sameresult - the OP falls off the face of the Earth after promising to show us the progress of his creation.

Like these:

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...eries-race-car

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...-Car-motorswap

Of course several track E31s HAVE been made, but my point is that my "presumptuous behavior"had a reason behind it.

Opinionated Member

olinjohnston1

Originally Posted by toomanyparts

Who pissed in your coffee? Sorry, but I feel you are way out of line here. I understandand respect your desire to preserve a factory car, but this sort of presumptuousbehavior doesn't make you a mind reader.

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Yesterday, 06:57 PM

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Dec 2006Sunny Cali,

6,7826.5 second 69

Camaro

One thing Olin is correct about, We have seen atlease 7 of these converted race cars that nevermade it back as a finished product inside the US, Would be nice to see one worth seeing, Andfinished! With all the lite weight efforts and vette engines transferred into them, None of them canhang with a TT or a 6L car which still resembles a E31 100%, I would think a Molded lite weightexample would be the best way to get real results, Low 3k lbs area would be very nice in a finishedreplica imo.

#12

Ultimate Machine Driver

8eights

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Yesterday, 07:17 PM #13

Join Date:Location:Posts:My Cars:

Dec 2006Los Angeles, CA

3,010'00 528iT/5 & 2003

M3

This car will primarily be built for half mile roll race events, which we attend with Shift S3ctorhere in CA:

http://www.speedhunters.com/tag/shift-s3ctor/http://shift-s3ctor.com/airstrip-attack-april-6th-7th/

That being said, with the right suspension I think it would do well around the road course aswell.

I understand your lack of faith, as I've seen the same problem with 6 series and 8 seriesprojects, both of which I plan to build. This would be a longer term project, but one well withinour abilities. We're not scared to take on crazy projects, we've currently started an LS7powered E46 M3 race car project for a friend, and I have an E46 M3 I will be swapped acammed LS6 into.

The LS7 e46 m3 project at this point

Membere30polak

Originally Posted by olinjohnston1

I am home sick, and very uncomfortable, so maybe I was too harsh in my wording...butwho does he think his market is going to be for these interior parts? It just seemed likea "what would you pay me" kind of inquiry. Plus, this same track-car-E31 idea isproposed every few months here, with the same result - the OP falls off the face of theEarth after promising to show us the progress of his creation.

Like these:

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...eries-race-car

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...-Car-motorswap

Of course several track E31s HAVE been made, but my point is that my"presumptuous behavior" had a reason behind it.

Our 500whp s50 turbo, fully caged, E30 race car, which competed at the April Airstrip Attackevent

Frank Ocean's right hand drive converted, RMS stage 2 supercharged, s54 swapped E30

Sebo's 440whp s50 turbo e30 that competed at last October's Airstrip Attack

A 2.8L m20 swapped, custom turbo E21 Baur we're building

An s52 turbo E30 m3 and my former s54 swapped e30 m3, that were both built and sold toFrank Ocean

Shafique's S54 swapped E36

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Yesterday, 07:27 PM

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Dec 2006Sunny Cali,

6,7826.5 second 69

Camaro

looks to be a easy task for you. Please update on the progress.

***Subscribed***

#14

Ultimate Machine Driver

8eights

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Yesterday, 07:27 PM #15

Join Date:Location:Posts:My Cars:

Mar 2006Orange County, CA

3,2511994 840Ci, 1995

740i

Well please keep us posted on the E31 as it comes along.

Opinionated Member

olinjohnston1

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Yesterday, 07:29 PM

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Dec 2009Malmö, Sweden

2991990 BMW 850.

BMW 120D

+1

Last edited by IvanHansen; Yesterday at 07:31 PM.

"Adversity cause some men to break; others to break records." -William A. Ward

"There" is no better a place than "here." When your "there" has become a "here", you will simplyobtain another "there" that will again look better than "here."

#16

MemberIvanHansen

Originally Posted by legoman67

go buy an e46 m3csl and supercharge it. youd be way further ahead time and moneywise for a track machine

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Yesterday, 07:32 PM

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Mar 2011Northern CA

7611997 840, 1998

Volvo S70

#17

Membertoomanyparts

Originally Posted by olinjohnston1

Well please keep us posted on the E31 as it comes along.

Someone stole my unicycle.

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Yesterday, 07:42 PM

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Mar 2006Orange County, CA

3,2511994 840Ci, 1995

740i

Huh?

#18

Opinionated Member

olinjohnston1

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Yesterday, 08:27 PM

Join Date:Location:Posts:My Cars:

Apr 2005Puget Sound, USA

82296 850ci, 06 325xi

I sure hope that was a typo!

Oxford Green Metallic, Parchment leather, 854 badge, EDC stock struts, M-Sport springs, 3.91 LSD, CSI rear sway, 18" M-Pars,M-Sport wheel w/flappy paddles, CD-43 head unit, Strong Strut brace, Euro FTPs, CSI rear defuser

#19

I think I 8 too muchsmc850ci

Considering the LS motor is 2 cylinders shorter, it would already have better weightdistribution then the M70...

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Yesterday, 09:35 PM

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Dec 2006Los Angeles, CA

3,010'00 528iT/5 & 2003

M3

Not "easy," but well within our abilities.

Not anytime soon. We're focused on finishing both LSX powered E46 M3s before touching thisproject. Looking at a few cars that may be worth jumping on, but I may hold off till fall orwinter to start. Luckily I have a spare s52 and a spare LS1 already, so both motor options havebeen acquired. Again this thread is for me to see what my budget will realistically be.

I'm already building an LS6 powered E46 M3 for myself, which will be just as much fun as asupercharged CSL. Plus we never received the CSL in the US.

I'm taking on this kind of project because I want to build something different, which will trulygive any spectators that "WOW!" factor.

My reasons for choosing the E31:

1) Long and wide wheel base2) Ability to put very wide wheels and tires under the factory fender, and even more so ifmodified.3) Even though I want to remove a bunch of weight from the car, it will still be heavy enough tohandle the big power I will be putting in it.4) Fairly aerodynamic, and does well at high speeds - making it a suitable option for half mileraces.5) It's an iconic BMW that many people love and the end result will bring a lot of exposure forour shop. 6) Once the project is completed and tested, it will bring good money to the right buyer.7) It's one of the sexiest looking BMWs ever built!

I guess so. V12 has 6 cylinders on each side, vs a V8 with 4 cylinders on each side. Sotechnically 4 cylinders total shorter if you combine both sides of the motor, but the length ofeach side of the motor is 2 cylinders longer.

#20

Membere30polak

Originally Posted by 8eights

looks to be a easy task for you. Please update on the progress.

***Subscribed***

Originally Posted by olinjohnston1

Well please keep us posted on the E31 as it comes along.

Originally Posted by IvanHansen

+1

Originally Posted by smc850ci

I sure hope that was a typo!

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Yesterday, 10:45 PM

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May 2013Malibu calif

110850Ci,

E9,SL65,911S+246

I am interested in some of your interior parts... I am in Malibu

execmalibu@earthlink

#21

Memberexecmalibu

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