FOOTBALL TRUST 1990 LICENSING AUTHORITY LIAISON COMMITTEE

MINUTES OF THE FIRST MEETING HELD ON TUESDAY, 15TH MAY 1990 AT WALKDEN HOUSE, LONDON, COMMENCING AT 11.00 A.M.

Present: T. Wharton, O.B.E. - in the Chair

The Rt. Hon. Lord Aberdare, K.B.G., G.C.St.J. R.O. Faulkner

W.H. Carter Y. Craig J.D. Dent .■G. EndicottT. Finney, O.B.E., J.P.W . Fox C. Foster M. GeorgeR.H.G. Kelly, F.C.I.S.P. LeeF.A. MillichipSir John Smith, C.B.E., J.P., D.L.H.B. SturgeonG. Taylor S.W. Taylor

C. Thwaite

Miss G. Firth Mrs. P. Finney

90/1 WELCOME

The Chairman welcomed members to the first meeting of the Licensing Authority Liaison Committee.

All members were introduced.

90/2 APOLOGY FOR ABSENCE

An apology for absence was received from Mr. J. Steedman (Scottish Football League) and Mr. Y. Craig attended in his stead.

90/3 MR. T.M. LAUCHLAN

The Chairman reported the death of Mr. T.M. Lauchlan and the meeting wished their condolences to be passed to the family. A floral tribute was to be sent by The Football Trust.

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90/4 REMIT OF THE LICENSING AUTHORITY LIAISON COMMITTEE

The Chairman confirmed that the remit of the Committee was to make recommendations to The Football Trust 1990 regarding applications for grant aid under the two groups of funding currently available and further funds if they became available in due course.

90/5 SAFETY

The following policy decisions made by The Football Trust 1990 at a meeting on 27th April were noted:-

a) The maximum gross ceiling allowable for safety grant aid was raised to £1.25 million per club. These grants would continue to be grant aided at 75% of approved costs. Offers of grant aid would be withdrawn if the work was not completed within two years of the date of offer.

b) Floodlights - the ceiling was raised to 75% of £75,000(included in the safety ceiling) on a five year roll over basis,

c) Seating would be grant aided as safety at 75% up to amaximum of £35 per seat. This is outwith the safety ceiling as stated in (a) above.

Mr. Fox asked that the ceiling figure be discussed under a later agenda item 16 and this was agreed.

Subject to the approval of The Football Trust 1990 it was agreed that, with the exception of (c) above, these grantswould be paid out of the income received from Spotting theBall.

Seating applications could be funded from the income derived from,the reduction in the Pool Betting Duty. Safety including floodlights would be funded from the Spotting the Ball donations.

90/6 IMPROVEMENTS

The following policy decision made by The Football Trust 1990 at a meeting on 27th April was noted:-

That the following improvement categories would continue to be grant aided at 70% of approved costs; (a) toilet facilities; (b) facilities for the disabled, and (c) family enclosures. These will be funded from the Spotting the Ball donations.

90/7 AREA REPRESENTATIVES

It was noted that the following area representatives had been allocated:

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,.

England South Midlands England North Scotland

R.O. Faulkner & S.W. Taylor J.C. Thwaite & A. Sandford J.D. Dent & T. Finney T. Wharton & H.B. Sturgeon

A list of clubs in each area was received and noted. This would change shortly due to Darlington re-entering the Football League.

The Chairman had produced a draft standard form of report which area representatives would be asked to complete and submit to the Secretary after visiting a club. The Chairman felt that this Report Form was essential to provide a record of such meetings.The Report Form would be confidential to the Committee and would be copied to relevant area representatives.

This draft Report Form was agreed by the meeting. Copies would be circulated to members as quickly as possible.

Members were informed to expect that clubs would seek meetings to ask for guidance as to acceptable areas of work. It would be desirable for both area representatives to be present at the meeting if at all possible. It was stressed that area representatives can only offer advice to clubs and that all applications must be submitted via the Secretariat. Area representatives cannot make commitments for grant aid. All applications would be considered by the Committee in accordance with agreed procedures.

It was agreed that under no circumstances will the Committee • or individual members discuss possible grant aid available to parties who were attempting to take over a club. The Committee would deal with club officials only.

The Chairman indicated that clubs may need to be reminded . that the Football Trust was a discretionary Trust.

It was stressed that the Football Trust 1990 and, consequently, this Committee, did not set safety standards. These are to be laid down by the local authority or the F.L.A., when set up. The Football Trust 1990 considers proposals and assesses their eligibility for grant aid.

It was agreed that it could be necessary to look at the question of the Football Trust 1990 being able to reclaim grants made if the assets were sold for financial gain. This would be a matter for the full Trust to decide.

90/8 GRANT PROCEDURES

The meeting approved in principle the preparation of a new Book along the lines of F.G.I.T.’s "Blue Booklet" to lay down, in general terms, the criteria which would be adopted for grant aid. The Chairman was authorised the pursue this as quickly as possible with the Secretary, Professional Advisers and Mr. R. Faulkner.

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It was agreed that proposal and claim forms be prepared and be included in the new Book. The Chairman indicated that certain clubs felt that the Club Secretary should be allowed to sign forms in place of a director. This question was left until after advice from professional advisers later on the agenda.

The Chairman reported on the policy of F.G.I.T. with regard to grant aid offered to Northern Ireland clubs. F.G.I.T. had taken the view that the issue was so complex it was best administered by the Irish Football League. Grants had been made on an annual or biannual basis to the Irish Football League, who reported to F.G.I.T. proposals on the way the grant should be distributed. The Irish Football League had, in fact, used the services of a Government Surveyor to assess schemes. At present a grant of £150,000 was due to be paid to the Irish Football League in October 1990, being the final payment of a £300,000 grant made over two years.

It was pointed out that Linfield F.C. would not be eligible for grant aid under this heading as Windsor Park would be dealt with separately from the reduction in Pool Betting Duty as a National Stadium. Any grants to the other Irish Football League clubs would come from the Spotting the Ball income.

It was agreed to RECOMMEND to the Football Trust 1990 that this practice be continued and claims from individual Irish clubs not be considered.

90/9 MESSRS. GEORGE CORDEROY & CO. - NOMINATED SURVEYORS

The Chairman reported that Messrs. George Corderoy & Co. had been appointed nominated Surveyors at a meeting of the Football Trust held on 27th April 1990.

Mr. W.H. Carter thanked the Football Trust for their continued confidence in Messrs. George Corderoy & Co. He indicated that the existing brief with F.G.I.T. needed minor revisions for this Committee and he would report in detail to the next meeting.He stated that Corderoys would continue with the present daily rate charged to the Football Trust 1979 and F.G.I.T. until the end ofthis year. Corderoys would wish to review this figure at the endof this year.

Mr. Carter did request that Corderoy & Co. change the way the Trust was charged for his personal time involved with Trust work. It is proposed that the Trust be charged on an hourly basisat the going rate for Mr. Carter's time.

Mr. Carter would wish to discuss procedures with Colin Foster in order that any recommendations could be discussed with the Chairman for inclusion in the new "Blue Booklet".

It was agreed to RECOMMEND to the Football Trust 1990 acceptance of Mr. Carter's proposal that his personal time can be charged separately and that the daily charges can be reviewed at the end of the year. Mr. Carter would let the Chairman have a revised brief within the next few days.

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90/10 MESSRS. RUSHTONS - REPORTING ACCOUNTANTS

The Chairman reported that Messrs. Rushtons had been appointed Reporting Accountants at a meeting of the Football Trust held on 2 7th April 1990.

Mr. C. Foster stressed that Rushtons were Reporting Accountants, not auditors, nor tax advisers.

He had met with the Football Trust 1990 auditors and a good working relationship had been founded.

Mr. Foster indicated that, as Reporting Accountant, he had a role which needed to be defined by the Trust in a letter of engagement. It was also necessary to define their relationship with regard to other professional parties, i.e. clubs' auditors.As Chartered Accountants, Messrs. Rushtons could not merely walk into a club and demand that they be allowed to inspect a club's accounts. Clubs, however, needed to be aware that Rushtons would be required to look into clubs' finances on behalf of the Trust in respect of applications.

Mr. G. Endicott stressed that it was essential that Rushtons be provided with all relevant financial information in order to comply with the agreement made with Government.

Mr. Faulkner indicated that the terms of the Football Trust 1990 were quite clear in that the Trust had absolute discretion with regard to grants. If clubs did not provide all information, they would jeopardise possible grant aid.

Mr. Foster felt it essential that he be allowed to establish a good working relationship with clubs' advisers. The Chairman stressed that under no circumstances could standards be reduced. Members felt that most clubs would be prepared to provide all relevant information.

It was agreed that a declaration should be signed by the Chairman and Secretary of each club to the effect that they would provide all information requested by the Trust. This would be included with each individual application.

It was agreed that Rushtons should continue to provide budget forecasts of funds and commitments. He would liaise with Mr. Faulkner, Mr. Carter and the Secretary to obtain necessary information.

The meeting then discussed the procedures in respect of the submission of an Auditor's Certificate by the club. It was agreed that the new "Blue Booklet" will contain a warning that action would be taken against clubs who attempted to defraud the Trust.

Mr. Carter pointed out that it was inevitable that the increased controls on grants would lead to a slowing down of the process. It was generally accepted that clubs would have to accept this point. Corderoys were asked to minimise time taken to respond to payment applications.

It was agreed that Mr. Foster submit a detailed brief to the Chairman, who would consult with Lord Aberdare and Mr. Faulkner.

90/11 POLICE CHARGES

Mr. Faulkner outlined the history of funds being allocated towards the cost of police charges. The current contribution was £1.6 million paid at 35%, with a maximum ceiling of £76,000 imposed on the First Division. A sum of £320,000 was set aside for Scottish clubs, which had covered 35% being paid to these clubs.

There was now a feeling that this contribution should be reviewed in the light of (a) Lord Justice Taylor's recommendations- was the contribution to the police charges an effective means of helping clubs? - and, (b) the feeling that the existing fund had merely contributed to increased costs.

The Chairman pointed out the police charges were now to be paid out of the 75% Spotting the Ball income allocated to this Committee. Payments were made out of taxed income, to the fullest possible extent. The Chairman felt that clubs appreciated the distribution and many had already made budget forecasts on the assumption that they would receive this money next season.

Mr. Fox reported that negotiations were currently taking place with ACPO concerning the different level of charges. Police charges were a great strain on clubs' resources and it would be a disappointment to clubs if this was ceased. He felt that the contribution should not cease until a pricing policy had been agreed with ACPO.

Mr. Craig reported that the smaller Scottish clubs in particular were grateful for the contribution and if it had to cease it should be phased out over a period.

Sir John Smith expressed the view that the contribution was never intended to carry on ad infinitum and that the emphasis had changed dramatically since Hillsborough. Safety was now of paramount importance.

Mr. George reported that ACPO were trying to expedite the question of a common pricing policy.

It was agreed to RECOMMEND to the Football Trust that the contribution be phased out as follows

An allocation of £1.6 million for Season.1990/91; £1.3 million for Season 1991/92 and £1 million for Season 1992/93. The 35% be maintained with a ceiling for the First Division of £80,000for Season 1990/91; £70,000 for Season 1991/92 and £60,000 forSeason 1992/93. One fifth of the total to be set aside for Scottish clubs.

This recommendation to be subject to review pending theoutcome of ongoing deliberations with ACPO.

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90/12 C.C.T.V.

The Chairman reported that Mrs. P. Finney had been invited and had agreed to continue to administer the allocation of funds for CCTV.

The meeting received and noted a report prepared by Mrs. Finney on the CCTV funds.

Mr. George reported on the current procedures adopted by the Working Group on CCTV.

A query was raised regarding maintenance agreements and it was agreed that it be stressed to clubs that maintenance agreements should be carried out.

Mr. George indicated a possible likely budget of £2 million would be needed over 18 to 24 months.

It was agreed to RECOMMEND to the Football Trust 1990 that an allocation of £2 million over a two year period be made from the Spotting the Ball income for CCTV.

90/13 LORD JUSTICE TAYLOR'S FINAL REPORT

The Chairman reported that he understood that the F.L.A. was expected to be set up in a month's time and a new Green Guide published in August. Two areas contained in Lord Justice Taylor's Report for which clubs were now requesting grant aid were computerised turnstiles and fencing.

It was agreed that computerised turnstiles would be grant aided from the income accrued from the reduction in Pool Betting Duty.

A discussion took place on the question of grant aid for the taking down of fencing and whether this should be grant aided.Other clubs now faced the problem of, having chosen to take fencingdown, being instructed to put it back in place.

Mr. Carter reported that clubs failed to understand that an instruction from their Local Authority, police or fire authorities was not the same as the club indicating that they would like to undertake certain works and the Local Authority agreeing it was agood thing. Clubs have to be reminded that the work had to be aspecific instruction in writing. It was agreed to clarify this area in the new "Blue Booklet".

It was agreed to RECOMMEND to the Football Trust 1990 that grant aid be offered for the taking down of fences if it was a specific instruction from the Local Authority. However, grant aid would not be offered on fences which were put back after having been taken down arbitrarily by the club.

Mr. Lee pointed out that, in discussions with Government, the primary purpose of the income from the reduction in Pool Betting Duty was for major projects which the Chancellor could

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point to and say where the money had been spent. To this end it had not been envisaged that this income be used to pay for the other safety recommendations made by Lord Justice Taylor. These would be grant aided out of the income from Spotting the Ball.

Mr. Fox pointed out that time was of the essence if clubs were to put work in hand for the coming close season. Decisions had to be taken by this Committee to enable clubs to start work.The Chairman accepted this point, which was one reason why F.G.I.T. had remained in existence, to establish that clubs still had an organisation to which to submit applications this close season.This would ensure a smooth hand over between the two bodies-.

90/14 MAJOR PROJECTS/NEW STADIA

The meeting discussed the principles of grant aid for major improvement developments and the relocation of clubs to new stadia.

It was agreed that a club's resources would be taken into account when considering such projects. Mr. Foster's investigations into a club's finances would be crucial.

If a club was relocating it would be essential that they prove what other sources of income had been explored and were available. The Football Trust would merely be a contributor and not the major funder of such projects.

It was agreed that an application of this nature should be considered on its merits in relation to the funds available and the resources of the club involved.

90/15 FOOTBALL GROUNDS IMPROVEMENT TRUST

The Chairman reported that the F.G.I.T. Trustees had agreed in principle to accept the proposed draft resolution put to them for the winding up of F.G.I.T. However, they were unable to put a date on the winding up in order to make sure that clubs could still submit claims during the current close season. The Trustees who served on this Committee were empowered to set a date following this first meeting. Final Accounts would then be drawn up. It was estimated that F.G.I.T. would have an unallocated budget of £| million to £1 million. This amount was, however, being drawn upon all the time during the hand over period.

Mr. Foster would incorporate the amount into his budget forecas t.

90/16 FUNDING

The Chairman reported that no funds were yet available from the reduction in Pool Betting Duty. However, it was envisaged that this would produce between £18 and £19 million per annum.

The flow of funds was dependent on a variation agreement being drawn up between the Football League and the Pool Promoters

Association. This had been done and was now only awaiting signature by Vernons Pools.

Mr. J. Dent reported on a meeting he had attended with the All Party Committee on Football at which they had expressed surprise that the supply of funds had not started and that the money would not be back-dated. They would be asking relevant questions in the House.

Mr. Lee expressed the view that it was unlikely that Government would back-date the funds.

It was confirmed, therefore, that the only funds available at the present time were the income from the Spotting the Ball, which would amount to approximately £7.5 million per annum. Out of this income the following had already been allocated:-

(a) £1.6 million for police charges for 1990/91; and

(b) 50% of anticipated CCTV costs - £2 million over two years.

Mr. R.H.G. Kelly and Mr. Fox both indicated that the Football League and the Football Association were looking into the possibility of further funding being made available through their resources.

It was agreed that the principle be established that, if funding from other sources became available, this would be dealt with in accordance with the wishes of the benefactor.

Mr. Foster outlined the tax implications if such funding was made available.

It was noted that the Scottish Football League were not anticipating making any funding available from its own resources.

90/17 SEATING

A lengthy debate took place on applications received under F.G.I.T.'s 1990 initiative in respect of the installation of additional seating.

Twenty-five applications had been received, amounting to approximately £3.6 million gross. It was essential that these clubs be given some indication as to the extent of grant aid available in order that work could commence this close season.(attached)

Mr. Fox felt that £35 per seat was not sufficient in view of all the associated works to terracing. The time factor was also most important.

Mr. Lee indicated that it was the Government's view that seating was the most important recommendation contained in Lord Justice Taylor's Report. It was essential that clubs be encouraged to provide a good quality seat and associated works.

After much discussion it was agreed to RECOMMEND that grant aid be offered at 75% of approved costs up to a maximum of £70 per seat. Offers would, of course, relate to average seated attendances. The cost of £70 would cover all related works for the installation of seating.

It was agreed to RECOMMEND that grant aid be offered only on seats under cover at this stage.

90/18 INSURANCE

It was agreed to RECOMMEND that insurance be taken out to cover all members and the Secretary in respect of (a) Personal Accident, and (b) Professional Indemnity.

90/19 EXPENSES

Expense forms were circulated to all members. It was confirmed that the Secretary receive the same expenses whilst on Committee business. These forms are to be submitted to Mrs. P. Finney at Walkden House for payment.

90/20 ANY OTHER BUSINESS

(a ) F.F.E. & V.T.S. Community Programme

Mr. Kelly raised the possibility of the Committee contributing towards the costs of the F.F.E. & V.T.S. Community Programme. The Football Trust 1990 had agreed in principle to a grant of £2 million subject to consideration of this grant being split 75/25 between the Chairman's Working Party and the Licensing Authority Liaison Committee.

As this scheme benefited the professional game as well as the grass roots, it was agreed to RECOMMEND to split the grants 75/25 between the two Committees.

(b) It was agreed that the Secretary and Chairman organise stationery for the Committee.

(c) Mr. J.D. Dent requested permission to speak with the Chairman concerning the management fee paid to the Football League. This was agreed and the Chairman would consult with Lord Aberdare and Mr. Faulkner on the matter.

90/21 NEXT MEETING

It was agreed that the next meeting be held on Monday,16th July 1990 at Walkden House, London, to commence at 11.00 a.m.

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There being no further business, the Chairman declared the meeting closed at 2.35 p.m.

^ ■ 'O ' ̂ vChairma

ii

Date

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SEATING APPLICATIONS TO DATE

CLUB NUMBER OF SEATS AMOUNT REMARKS

EVERTONI

HEARTS

HIBERNIAN

PORT VALE

PORTSMOUTH

3.000

900

5,172

4,871

9.000

•BftlSqPOL ROVERS— — i— ^ r

PLYMOUTH 3,860

DUNFERMLINE 1,665

DERBY COUNTY 3,284

CRYSTAL PALACE 4,968

BLACKBURN ROVERS 4,200

ROCHDALE

200,000

12,000

254,113

280,000

180,000

- -gprotro-

Initial report prepared

- - - a -Vo

Initial report prepared

LEEDS

MIDDLESBROUGH'

ST. MIRREN

RANGERS

ASTON VILLA

SOUTHAMPTON

ABERDEEN

WEST HAM

7

3,082

5,500

3,000

2,200

3,800

?

164.000

24,000

118,748

560.000

380.000

300,000

51,043

192.500

177.500

81,350

77.000

28.000

Complete new stand - no plans to date

Further investigation required

Initial report prepared

No adequate details

Further investigation required

Initial report prepared

Further investigation required

CLUB NUMBER OF SEATS AMOUNT REMARKS

HULL CITY 1,650 492,000 Further investigation required

IPSWICH TOWN 2,000 87,650 M ft I!

MOTHERWELL 1,100 16,060 Initial report prepared

DUNDEE UNITED 4,800 1,600,000 Further investigation required

SWINDON TOWN 2,000 24,000 Further investigationrequired

George Corderoy & Co.

May 1990