Female: Martha Washington was George Washington's confidant.

Male: She was a person very absorbed in duty and very capable, but she didn't like that. She called

herself a prisoner of state.

Male: By the same token that every step Washington took to find the office, so in a very real sense

can it be said that everything about the Washington did, likewise.

Male: It was a business like relationship, but not, I think, without affection. I think they had deep

respect and affection to each other.

Male: Williamsburg is as close to her hometown as Martha would ever get.

Male: She owned both of most of this whole block going back a couple of acres, which mean she

owned a huge chunk of what Williamsburg was.

Male: There was a lot of tragedy in Martha Washington's life of course she lost her first husband.

Male: She was raised a rich woman, now what that means in 18th century is not necessary what it

means today.

Female: When she marries George Washington, she brings with her to Mount Vernon, 12 house

slaves and that is really almost an unimaginable luxury.

Female: It would take her 10 days to travel here to Valley Ford from Mount Vernon, in her carriage

with her slaves and servants with her, and this was a difficult journey.

Female: Martha's experience had really prepared her to become the first first lady.

Susan Swain: Born in New Kent County, Virginia in 1731, Martha Washington was 57 years old in

1789 when she and George Washington once again left her beloved Mount Vernon, Virginia home in

service to the country.

This time, their destination was New York City selected as the nation's first capital, where they began

the first of their two terms as President and first lady of the United States, setting important

precedents for all their successors in the White House.

Good evening, and welcome to C-SPAN's Brand New Series, “first ladies Influence & Image”. For

the next year, we're going to be spending time on personal biographies of each of the women who

served in that role in the White House as a window into American history.

Our first installment, Martha Washington, of course. And tonight, for the next 90 minutes, we'll try to

serve up the essential Martha Washington with two people who have come to know her well.

Presidential historian, Richard Norton Smith, whose biography of George Washington is called

Patriarch, and Patricia Brady, who's done a biography of Martha Washington subtitled, "An American

Life."

Pat Brady, we're going to start with you. Why does Martha Washington matter?

Patricia Brady: She was the first and she was one of the best. Those things always count. She was

able to help George Washington make it through the American Revolution and then two awful terms

as President. She was his helpmate, always.

Susan Swain: Richard Norton Smith, this concept for this series was something that you championed

early and really were a guiding light into how C-SPAN might do it. What was your thought as a

historian about why – studying first ladies should matter in this society we live in today?

Richard Norton Smith: First of all, we don't know enough about them, as individuals. We don't

know enough about them for the windows that they open upon their particular periods. Individually,

they're fascinating. Collectively, it seems to me they provide a way of appraising, not only women's

history, but the history of the country in any number of political and other institutions as well.

But ultimately, I suspect viewers will be surprised by a lot of the information that they hear over the

next year. These are surprising stories that we are going to be telling.

Susan Swain: Well, for Martha Washington, we went on location to a number of sites important to

her biography. And during her next 90 minutes, we'll show you some of the video. As we always do

in C-SPAN, this will be interactive. In a little while, we'll begin taking phone calls and we'll tell you

how you can be part of that conversation. But you can join immediately by social media. If you are

on Twitter, you can send us the question or comment using the hash tag first ladies.

And on Facebook, if you go to C-SPAN site, we have a question posted for you of anything you'd like

to talk about in Martha Washington's time or her life, and we'll mix some of those questions into the

discussion as well. We welcome your participation, that's what's it's all about here.

Well, I want to go to – we're going to spend the first 15 or 20 minutes on the important time – the

years in the White House, the two terms there. 1789 …

Patricia Brady: Oh, not the White House.

Susan Swain: That's right, sorry.

The Presidential Mansion in New York City. 1789, she comes to New York City a few months

behind George Washington. Let's start by telling us what kind of opinion the American public had of

these two people as they took this important role.

Patricia Brady: Well, the opinion they had of these two had began with the revolution. And at that

point, when Martha would ride to join her husband as she did every year at the winter camps, there

would be people would just lined up beyond every tree on every fence post to look at her. And that

she said, "I felt as though I were a very great somebody." You know, she was somebody for the first

as his wife. And the newspapers reported on how important it was for him to have her.

So they started, then, when they came back as President and his lady, they've really already had the –

public had an opinion of them. They were singular characters. The other politicians were not in the

same ballpark at all.

Susan Swain: Give people have ascends of how hard it was to make the basic decisions about how

the new government went function including this role.

Richard Norton Smith: Well, in fact, the decisions about what a republic was, what a president was,

were inseparable from many of those that we would perhaps almost condescendingly today attribute

to the East Wing of the White House.

For instance, would the president and first lady accept private dinner invitations? Would the

president and first lady go to private funerals? What do you call a president? Indeed, what do you

call his consort?

The reason why these questions which seem, in some ways, trivial to us today matter, it's because

each one of them in their own way defined the nature of this new government, which was, after all, to

some degree a spin-off from it's royal antecedents. And yet the country was split right down in the

middle, certainly, between those who feared that it was, in any way, aping George the III.

So, then is now. It's remarkable. Then – and 200 years later, we still have this dichotomy about what

a president it is. Is how close does a president and his wife get to us. The fact that Mrs. Washington

had every week a Friday night reception that anyone could walk into as long as they were decently

dressed. Well, you certainly wouldn't find that in London.

And it helped to define, not only her role, but in a larger sense, the access that Americans would have

to their presidents.

Susan Swain: Well, staying with that thought, if the only models that – of the Washingtons and the

rest of the founding government had were – they're very sort of European monarchies they'd fought a

revolution to distance themselves from. Where did the Washingtons draw their examples from?

Patricia Brady: They talked it out, you know, people see Washington always as the strong marble

leader. But he was more than a statue, he always liked to talk to his associates. That's one reason he

was criticized as a general because he like to talk to his staff before making a decision in government.

He thought that all of the best minds of the country would get together, talk things through and make

the right decision, because we were the first modern republic.

Now, it's so hard for us to understand there was nobody like us and so whatever they did mattered, it

was important.

Susan Swain: Let's take a quick snapshot of that modern republic, and just some basic facts about

what America looked like in 1790. This was from the first census ever done by the new country and

interestingly, the census maker was Thomas Jefferson.

Here are some of the facts that they gathered about the new United States. The 13 former colonies,

now the 13 states, had a population of just under 4 million. And 757 of those were Blacks, about 19

percent, and only 9 percent were free. The per capita income $437, now interestingly, if you look

back before the war, it was almost doubled that. So, years of war had reduced the per capita income.

If you translated that to 2013 dollars, $11,500, and the largest cities in the country, New York,

Philadelphia and Boston. Now, what should we learn about those three large cities?

Richard Norton Smith: Well, first of all, I'll just point out that two of those 13 states were not yet

members of the Union. The fact is that both North Carolina and Rhode Island held back when the

rest of the Union adopted the Constitution.

America was overwhelmingly a rural, rustic, agrarian farm based society. It ended at the Appalachian

Mountains. There were only – in 1800, there were three roads that crossed. The United States was a

nation in name only. It was, in fact, three distinct nations. It was the New England, it was the Middle

States and it was the South. And each of them had one major city. Philadelphia, as you say, the

largest city in the nation with all of 40,000 people.

So, one of things that Martha Washington, I think, frankly found not altogether to her liking, was the

fact that she was uprooted from the agricultural rural life at Mount Vernon that she knew that she'd

been born into, that she had mastered in many ways and relished. And it is only the latest chapter of

her sacrifice which in it's own way, I'd think you could argue, matches anything that her husband

sacrificed.

Patricia Brady: Well, that's true, she did not want to go to a city. She did not want to live in the

North. She wanted to be home at Mount Vernon. But, she had to be there with her husband to do

what her husband wanted to do. She gave it up. But the thing that made her so very unhappy was to

discover when she got there that Washington had consulted with John Jay, and James Madison, and

John Adams. And they had all decided that presidents could have no personal life, that any

entertainment, any going to visit people, any having people in was, in fact, a public act. And so they

couldn't just go hang out with their friends or ask their friends over.

And that was just for one year. But the first year was terrible for her at the same time that it was

pretty good for him because Jefferson hadn't come back from Paris yet. And so that was probably his

honeymoon with the presidency.

Susan Swain: Let me put a quote in here just to, obviously, get Martha's state of mind about these

great restrictions that had been put upon her. This is a quote from her, "I never go to the public place.

Indeed, I think I am more like a state prisoner than anything else. There are certain bounds set for me

which I must not depart from and as I cannot do as I'd like, I am obstinate and I stay home a great

deal."

Richard Norton Smith: But you know what, off setting that, there is a line that I've often thought,

someone should carve over the entrance to the entrance to the White House, because it – and first of

all, it goes to the heart, I think of who this woman was, and why she was the ideal first first lady. She

said in the quote, it's too good spoil, but it's very close. She talked about how – experience of her life

had taught her that our happiness our misery depends upon our disposition and not our circumstances.

Patricia Brady: Very true.

Richard Norton Smith: That is a remarkably wise observation. But it's an observation distilled from

a life full of tragedy. You know, she'd lost a husband, she lost all four of her children. She lost

countless cherished nieces and nephews.

Patricia Brady: And all of her siblings.

Richard Norton Smith: Absolutely.

Patricia Brady: Yes.

Richard Norton Smith: And then she found herself repeatedly uprooted from the life she expected to

follow George, either on the battlefield or a different kind of battlefield as together with very little

precedent they devised this new government.

Susan Swain: But she chose to follow him. She could have stayed behind. So this is a mark of their

partnership is it now.

Patricia Brady: Oh, she were – they were very much partners. He was so miserable until he could get

her to join him wherever he was. But I was going to say about the quote about the prisoner of state,

that was in the first year in New York which was the bad year for her when she was still having to

follow the rules of the men.

When they went home to Mount Vernon, she worked on her husband so that when they went to

Philadelphia the next year, the rules were changed. She wasn't a prisoner and he was also off on a

month long tour of the Northern – I was going to say colonies in the Northern States attempting to

unite the country. And so she was depressed in by herself. So she was much less happy at that time

than any other time, really.

Susan Swain: Well, when she moved to Philadelphia and became happy, or because the restrictions

were lifted also she'd lived in Philadelphia society, new people there. We're going to next show you a

video from Philadelphia and get a sense of Martha and George Washington's life there in the second

capital of the United States.

(VIDEO BEGINS PLAYING)

Female: It's here that Martha Washington carved out the role of what the wife of the president of the

United States should do. Some of the social events that Martha Washington would have been

responsible for overseeing are state dinners that were held weekly on Thursdays, as well as the

drawing room receptions Martha Washington personally organized every Friday evening. The state

dinners would have been the event that Martha would have had to help to coordinate, and this took

place on Thursdays every week.

Just above this dining room up on the second floor was a drawing room. And that's where Martha

Washington held her drawing room receptions on Fridays. Those events were a little more informal

as compared to the state dinners down here. And George Washington was always an attendant. He

probably preferred those social engagements on Friday more than the events he held here in this room

because they were informal in nature.

The events were opened to the public. Anyone of social standing was welcome to attend. And most

people remark that George Washington was more at ease with his wife Martha Washington at his

side. And we know Martha Washington lived among a household of as many as 30 people, this

included paid servants, indentured servants and enslaved people from Mount Vernon.

But one of the most well known was Oney Judge. She was the personal maid to Martha Washington.

And because of the nature of her duties, it's very likely that she would have slept right here in the

house.

In the time that Martha Washington was here in Philadelphia, Oney Judge runs away. She escapes to

claim her freedom. This was a major blow to Martha Washington. She felt very betrayed. And she

had promised Oney Judge to her granddaughter once married.

Susan Swain: The Washingtons life in Philadelphia, what did you want to comment about that?

Patricia Brady: I need to say something there which is about sappy 19th century images, that the 19th

century liked the idea of having an almost regal republican court here. There was no dais in those

rooms. There was no place where they stood raised above the others nor did she stand. She sat on a

sofa and guests came and meet – met her there and then walked around the room as they pleased. But

the idea that it was somehow so regal is so wrong. It was not.

Richard Norton Smith: And were also – it's so frustrating. And anyone who has dealt with the

primary sources from this period we’re grateful for what we have, but we're constantly hungering for

more, because we have countless secondhand reports from events like this. And they're unanimous.

Everyone talks about what a charming conversationalist Martha was, how she was always cheerful,

how she was always interested in her guests.

Patricia Brady: Her smile, her beautiful teeth, not many people had beautiful teeth then.

Susan Swain: Well, it's also important as we talk about her interaction with the American public, the

slaves that they brought with them. We just heard the story of one Oney Judge. It's a good entry

point to talk about Martha Washington and George Washington's relationship with enslaved people.

Patricia Brady: When they married, they felt the same. They had grown up in Virginia. A good part

of the wealth of Virginia was built on the labor and the persons of enslaved – of the enslaved Black

people. And so, they agreed with it at that time Washington was rather strict with his slaves. But as

time went on, his views started to change, he was the only one of the Founding Fathers who freed his

slaves. The rest kept them until they died.

Her opinions didn't change. It was a very unfortunate. I wanted it to be different. And I looked for

every – I read every word I could find. And the one slave that she actually owned personally, she did

not free, she left to her grandson. And so, the truth is she felt that it was the right – the way society

was supposed to be. And that she was – Oney Judge had let her down because she'd always been

kind to her, and she didn't understand that Oney wanted to be free, that she wanted to learn to read

and write. And that she wanted to find Christ in her own way.

Richard Norton Smith: In a lot of ways, I think it could be said of Washington as it can be said later

on of Lincoln, that he outgrow the racist culture that produced him. And one major reason was,

because during the revolution after having initially turned thumbs down to the idea of recruiting free

Blacks. The fact of the matter is that African-Americans played a vital role in the winning of the

Revolution.

Washington saw it first hand what these people were capable of doing. He saw the courage, he saw

the sacrifice. He saw the human – they were humanized in a way that, quite frankly on the plantation,

was not possible. And so life taught him a lesson in some ways very different for Martha.

Susan Swain: The Washingtons spent the entire second term in Philadelphia. Your chapter in that is

the torments of the second term. One of the things that we so often don't learn about was about the

trials of things like epidemics. Philadelphia's population was more than decimated. 12 percent died

in the early part of that term.

Patricia Brady: Exactly.

Susan Swain: What was life like there?

Patricia Brady: Well, yellow fever is one of those diseases that one tends to think of as a Southern, as

a Caribbean disease, New Orleans says Yellow fever. But the East Coast of the United States was

frequently struck with yellow fever. And it was the yellow fever was killing people right and left.

Alexander Hamilton had a very bad case but survived. So that was part of the torment.

But the real torment for Washington was to see that his friends and his – the men he respected,

instead of all coming together to make a new form of government were falling apart into two parties.

He would never have believed that Jefferson and Madison and Hamilton would become enemies of

one another. And that they would be doing everything they could to keep each other out of office

instead of working together.

Susan Swain: Before we leave this section, because we're going to begin working our way back

through earlier parts of her life, you mentioned Adams. And, in fact, Martha Washington had a

relationship with Abigail Adams. And I was – I have to say a little tickled to find out there was

almost a sisterhood of revolutionary ladies. Can you tell us more about who was in that and how they

interacted with one another?

Patricia Brady: Well, they had – they really had a lot in common. They were both wives who were

partners. They were not wives who were stuck to the side and left out of everything. And they both

were deeply committed to the idea of this new republic. That's something they cared about.

Susan Swain: They were very political in that sense?

Patricia Brady: They were very political in that way. And they also helped each other socially.

Abigail was extremely pleased and tickled by the fact that her place was to the right of Martha

Washington on the sofa. And that if another lady came up and took her place before she arrived, that

the president himself would ask her to leave so that Abigail could sit there. So, she almost had a

crush on Martha Washington. Said she was a wonderful person which she was.

Richard Norton Smith: Also, Abigail being an Adams has left us some delightfully [waspish]

accounts life in Philadelphia including the Friday night receptions. But the one person who escapes

her occasionally harsh tongue invariably is Martha. And she talks about Martha Washington, she

said, she didn't have not a tincture of hauteur about her which is a wonderful phrase. But even now, it

does evoke the sense. This woman who could have been queen. George Washington could have

been king. She could have been queen. And not the least of their accomplishments is that each

refused a crown.

Susan Swain: Last question on this section for now on the White House years, you paint the portrait

that George Washington was a robust subscriber to newspapers of the time and read them. And that

Martha Washington devoured the papers as well.

Patricia Brady: She did. She loved to read. She read a lot. And when she didn't actually read the

papers herself, Washington would frequently spend an evening reading aloud to her and whoever else

was there. And he would read a story and then they would all talk about it. So, she was not a person

who was out of what was going on in politics at all.

Richard Norton Smith: That doesn't mean she liked what she read. And …

Susan Swain: How did the press treat her and her …

Richard Norton Smith: Well, actually, you see, you know, she (inaudible) some criticism not

personal criticism.

Patricia Brady: Right.

Richard Norton Smith: But certainly, one of the features from a very early daily, even in New York,

was, again, this quote democratic with the small D kind of Jeffersonian element, who were always on

the look out for anything that seemed monarchical. And they were those, believe it or not, who

thought a president's weekly levy Tuesday afternoon and her dinner every Thursday and her Friday

night reception. And the fact that he rode in a carriage, to Federal Hall, that somehow they won't

publish together and suspected aristocratic, if not royalist inclinations. So they were always on the

look out for that, not so much directed at the first lady per say as the administration that she

represented.

Patricia Brady: Right. The difference, Richard, that I think from Martha and every other first lady

beginning with Abigail is that these were private comments. And that others made private unpleasant

comments about her. But it didn't appear in the papers. Nobody said, "Oh, she's so uppity. She's so

full of herself," or whatever they might want to say about her that wives were off limits. But once the

Adams came in, no from then on, wives had been fair game.

Susan Swain: Well, I want to give you the phone lines. In about 10 minutes, we're going to go to

your calls. And you can join in this way. If you live in the Eastern or Central time zones, 202-585-

3880, Mountain or Pacific Time zones is 202-585-3881. And don't forget, you can tweet us, the hash

tag, first ladies, or post on Facebook and that's the ways to be involved.

Williamsburg, Virginia was the place where George and Martha met. We're going to learn a little bit

more about Martha Washington's life in Williamsburg next.

Male: Williamsburg is as close to her hometown as Martha Washington would ever get. She was

connected with this place from even well before she was born. Her great-grandfather, Rowland

Jones, was the first director of Bruton Parish Church from about 1664 to 1688. You can't get more

embedded in the life of this town than that. Her grandfather, Orlando Jones, we have his house that is

reconstructed here on Duke of Gloucester Street. And they owned a plantation at Queen's Creek just

right outside of town.

And then, their daughter Frances married John Dandridge, who was an up-and-coming planter, and

they moved out to New Kent County which is probably no more than 30 miles away. And that's

where Martha was born at Chestnut Grove.

And her growing up there, Williamsburg was then the center of political and social and cultural life in

all of Virginia, but certainly in this part of Virginia. And so given the fact that her father was

engaged in a lot of political and economic activity, this is the place where she would have come to

more often than any other place.

Female: This was the area where she kind of was born to, because if you were anyone in society, you

came to Williamsburg if you were from New Kent. Her mother certainly being a Williamsburg

society, when she became of the age where she was being brought into society, she was being bought

to the balls and the assemblies here. She was at the balls at the Royal Governor's Palace. She was

certainly at the assemblies at places like the Raleigh Tavern. So, when it's time to be brought out into

polite society, Williamsburg was the place to be because her mother knew that Williamsburg was

where her daughter needed to be.

Martha falls in love with Daniel Custis, that's her first husband, who is – she knows as a farmer, a

plantation owner, a man of New Kent. But what she doesn't know is that Daniel Custis is the son of

John Custis who owned seven properties here in Williamsburg, all the Northern Neck, most of the

Eastern Shore. And she falls in love with his son Daniel, thinking he's just this man from New Kent.

And when Daniel goes to his father and says, "I want to marry Martha Dandridge," John Custis

basically says, "Oh, her family is not fortuned enough to marry into the Custises". And he said, "No."

But the Dandridge’s were well known. Her father was a clerk of New Kent. Martha was well known

for her amiable personality, you know, with that warm nature that people really fell in love with her.

So John Blair and John Proctor go to John Custis on Martha's behalf and says, "If you just meet this

girl, you'll change your mind about her." And I'd love to go back in history and find out what the

meeting between John Custis and Martha Dandridge was like, because whatever she said to this man,

he said she was the most amiable young girl and you could not see his son marrying anything better

than the young Dandridge girl.

Male: I think we can kind of see Williamsburg as her proper home away from home. I mean, this is

the place where she owned property, she owned a house and which her first husband and her children

are buried right outside of town. All of her family or closest members of her family are within 20 or

30 miles of Williamsburg so she can easily reconnect with them.

Male: We're at Bruton Parish Church in Williamsburg, which actually in many ways is Martha

Washington's home church. Her great grandfather was the first minister of Bruton Parish Church,

Rowland Jones. He's buried on the inside. Her grandparents, Orlando Jones and his wife, they're

both very here inside the church and probably more closely connected to – with Martha Washington

than anybody else other than George Washington is her first husband and their first two children.

This is the final resting place of Daniel Parke Custis, Martha Washington's first husband. This

particular stone was ordered from – was ordered for him from London, and although, he and both of

their first two children, their first son and their first daughter who lie here were first entered at their

plantation outside of Williamsburg. Their remains and these stones were moved here to, basically,

her family church in the early part of the 20th century.

This is the Custis tenement. This is one of the buildings that Martha Washington owned here in

Williamsburg. In fact, she owned most of this whole block going back a couple of acres which means

she owned a huge chunk of what Williamsburg was.

Martha Washington stayed here throughout – off and on throughout most of her life because

Williamsburg was the political social and cultural center of her world. And so she was here when her

husband, Daniel Parke Custis, was a prominent member of this community. And, of course, she was

here very often when George Washington was a member of the House of Burgesses when he was a

political leader in the colony. And, of course, in order to be able to protect and promote her own

business interest in the area.

Susan Swain: Some beautiful scenes of Colonial, Williamsburg as it’s preserved today. What about

her Williamsburg years were important to the woman she become as – became as first lady?

Patricia Brady: I think one of the first things you have to realize is that she was a teenager when she

became the fiancé of Daniel Parke Custis. And he was 20 years older. And he was a bachelor

because his dad never let him marry. Nobody was good enough. And so, not only did she overcome

this elite prejudice on part of his father, but she helped to bring him into a real life in his late 30s with

the children and everything else. But he was so rich. He was so much richer than most people

around.

She came from a lower gentry family. They were not so rich. And she learned how to manage

property and to manage money and to take care of things that would serve her really well for the rest

of her life. She was smart as far as money went.

Susan Swain: 25 when she became a widow?

Patricia Brady: Yes.

Richard Norton Smith: Yes. But, you know, it's just a one statistic, you have to put the same

perspective, Mount Vernon at it's peak, it's about 8,000 acres. Well, Daniel Parke Custis, when they

were married and Martha was 19 years old, brought 18,000 acres into this marriage. And the video

which was wonderful, if anything, you know, and understated just how curmudgeonly and thoroughly

unpleasant, Daniel's father was.

His tomb stone today has an inscription that he wrote which announces that he had never been happy

except when living apart from his wife. They had a tempestuous relationship. And so, whatever it

was that this 18, 19-year old young woman was able to say made an amazing impression that nobody

would have predicted.

Susan Swain: So it's begins …

Richard Norton Smith: So it was something about, you know …

Susan Swain: The force of her character.

Richard Norton Smith: And her personality.

Susan Swain: So, she becomes a very, very, very wealthy widow, perhaps the most wealthy in

Virginia colony …

Patricia Brady: Yes.

Susan Swain: … age 25. So, she was quite a catch. What was it about George Washington that she

saw and was attracted to?

Patricia Brady: I think it was mostly that he was such a hunk, you know, he was six foot two in the

time when most men were five eight, five nine, a wonderful horseman, wonderful athlete, fabulous

dancer, very charming. And he really liked women. He loved to talk to women always his whole life

long. And he had begun to show the kind of leadership that he would later show more of. But in the

estimation of those days, he was the lucky one not – she was the catch rather than he.

Susan Swain: A colonel at the time and …

Patricia Brady: A colonel.

Susan Swain: ... and distinguishing military career.

Richard Norton Smith: But he would also be a real catch in the sense that she – remember she had

four children by Daniel Custis. Two of them died quite young. And two of them survived for now.

And of course, she had all of that property. And so, George Washington would also fulfill vital roles

even if as a partner.

Patricia Brady: And she could trust him because he was so clearly from the time he was really young,

a person of such integrity.

Susan Swain: Well, on that note, just so people get a sense of what life was like for women in Early

America. Women had what kind of property rights …

Patricia Brady: As a widow, she was in fine shape because her husband did not leave any kind of

trustee. She could do what she wanted to.

Susan Swain: Was that common?

Patricia Brady: Fairly common. It was much more common though to leave male trustees. He just

didn't get around to writing his will in time. But once women married, then they became [vancover],

which meant that they were covered women and that all of their financial and any other kind of

dealings were carried out by their husbands.

Richard Norton Smith: And she had a dower portion of the Custis' state …

Patricia Brady: Right.

Richard Norton Smith: … which, basically, a third.

Patricia Brady: A third.

Richard Norton Smith: That she had a lifetime interest in. And that included, in her case, about 85

slaves. The rest had to be managed for her children.

Susan Swain: The – our Twitter community is really enjoying your comment of George Washington

as a hunk. We often see …

Patricia Brady: He was.

Susan Swain: We often see pictures of Martha Washington such as the portrait we have on the screen

right now. In your biography, you have a very different, very attractive Martha Washington. How

accurate is this portrayal?

Patricia Brady: Very accurate. And people criticized and said, "Why do you have to show her

young?" Well, we all start young. You are not born 65 years old, and jump out off the womb with

the mob cap on. That it was important to show what she looked like as a beautiful young woman.

And so, I took a picture from Mount Vernon to the FACES lab at LSU, which is forensic

anthropology. And they did an age regression to show what she actually looked like at 25. I wanted

to say, "Well, what did George see when the door was opened and he walked into that – into the

drawing room, what kind of woman did he set eyes on?" It was not the Gilbert Stuart old lady. It was

a beautiful young woman.

Susan Swain: About the children, Martha Washington had four. She outlived all of them. But by the

time she met George, there were two living children.

Patricia Brady: Two living.

Susan Swain: What – for both of you, what was his attitude toward these children, did he take them

on as his own?

Richard Norton Smith: He really did. And, of course, as later on, famously, and, in effect, adopted

the grandchildren. Washington loved children. I think Washington was rather center to the fact that

he had no children of his own, and that would be a subject of pure speculation which hasn't prevented

historians from speculating. But the fact is he treated her children very much as if they were his own.

It's interesting by one estimate that she brought 20,000 pounds to their marriage. And he spent a good

deal of that immediately sending away to orders for toys, for wax dolls, for Patsy, the daughter. And

he spent time, quality time with them. And, of course, lost both of them, it was a shattering

experience. Patsy who died, it's believed of epilepsy.

Patricia Brady: Epilepsy, yes.

Richard Norton Smith: One day at dinner in the Verdigre Dining Room, and then Jackie who had not

participated in the revolution until the very end and joined his stepfather's staff came down with, most

people think, typhus with some sort of camp fever and died a few days later.

Susan Swain: But this is very common of the period. Most people – the average life expectancy

would have been, at that time, about what, mid 50s, mid 60s?

Patricia Brady: Well, except you need to just think of the fact that a large part of those in the death,

the mortality figures are young children who die before they're five or six. Now, the death rate

among young children and also, again, of women giving birth who so frequently died in child birth

that those figures are skewed if you lived beyond six and if you survive child birth, then the chances

of your living up at the 70s were fine.

Richard Norton Smith: Washington men rarely lived beyond the 50s …

Patricia Brady: Yes.

Richard Norton Smith: … which is one more reason why he was reluctant to take the presidency. He

had a sense that he was living on borrowed time at 57.

Susan Swain: Well, time for some phone calls from folks watching us around the country. The first

up is Jennifer (ph) who is in Water Town, South Dakota. Hi Jennifer (ph), what's your question?

Jennifer (ph): Hi, I was wondering what Martha's relationship was to General Washington’s staff,

people like Alexander Hamilton and maybe some of the politicians around them, the younger

politicians like Monroe and maybe even Madison, especially considering that she did lose her

children?

Patricia Brady: Well, that's a great question. Because from the time she first gave birth at 1819, she

was a really a wonderful mother. She doted on her children, her grandchildren, her nieces, her

nephews. And I've said that during the war with the young officers, young aides-de-camp, that she

was more or less like a house mother at a fraternity that she looked after these young men and she

saw to it that they ate enough and that they had dry socks. And did all the important things and

concerned herself with them in that way. And forever after where people, the young men of those

days, remembered her as their mother, as their foster mother.

Richard Norton Smith: She also had a sense of humor. Alexander Hamilton loved the ladies. And

they returned his interest. And at one point of the war – this was before Hamilton married Betsy

Schuyler. And, anyway, Martha had a very amorous Tom cat that she named Hamilton in tribute to

the future secretary of the treasury.

Susan Swain: I'm going to move on to another question. This one is from Tom (ph) of all things,

Tom (ph) watching us in Bethesda, Maryland. Hi Tom (ph), you're on.

Tom (ph): Thank you very much. There was a very special relationship between George Washington

and then Marquis de Lafayette. How did Martha Washington get along with the Marquis de Lafayette

and his family?

Patricia Brady: So I I'll be happy to, that he was another of the young men that she became a mother

to. When he came, he was – although the richest man in France, he was one of the most unhappy. He

was escaping from persecution by his in-laws and by the court. And he came there as a young man.

He was 18 years old when she finally met him. And she saw him as another son. She treated him

that way. And he loved it, he saw a part of that as what America was like where people could be

made over. And he could be made over.

Richard Norton Smith: He also was one of the many observers, one of the better observers who gives

us a window on the relationship between the Washingtons. He writes a letter. People asked why did

Martha spend every winter of the revolution with Washington. And Lafayette said it was simple of

that she loved her husband madly.

Patricia Brady: Madly.

Susan Swain: Our next call comes from Montpelier, Virginia, home of Thomas Jefferson and another

Pat (ph). You're on, Pat (ph), good evening.

Pat (ph): All right, I had read Washington by Chernow a few months ago. And at that time, he

mentioned that the Judge woman left because Martha had told her she was going to pass her on down

to her daughter and that she trusted and liked Martha. But she didn't want to work for the daughter.

Patricia Brady: That was actually her granddaughter. The daughter was many years dead by then.

Martha had three granddaughters. And the eldest one, Eliza, was fairly bad tempered and very

capricious. And I don't think anybody much would have wanted to work for her much less belong to

her.

And, certainly, when she was told that Eliza had requested her and that she was going to – when they

went home that she would be going to live with Eliza when she got married, she decided enough was

enough and took off.

Susan Swain: The Montpelier folks are going to be yelling at me.

Patricia Brady: Yes, I know.

Susan Swain: Shame on me. The – Monticello is actually Thomas Jefferson's home so we got to

correct that. You were going to say something?

Richard Norton Smith: Well no, just the – to round up the Oney story. Friends of hers, basically,

smuggled her to Portsmouth, New Hampshire, I believe it was. And then there was this conundrum

because Mrs. Washington wanted her back. And indeed wanted the president to advertise for her

return. And it put Washington in a very awkward situation.

Susan Swain: Ann Arbor, Michigan up next. Nancy (ph), what's your question?

Nancy (ph): Hi, I'm a public historian who likes to think about how women are represented in

historic sites. I wonder what you folks thought about how historic sites deal with first ladies, but

particularly Martha Washington. Do you think she's well represented or can we – are there other

things we can do to talk about what she did and how she was a helpmeet to her husband?

Patricia Brady: Well, I certainly think in Philadelphia, for example, that it would be good to see even

more done about Martha Washington as the first lady there. But at Mount Vernon, they've done an

incredible job. Mount Vernon is really the leader among all the historical houses in the nation. And

they have an actress who portrays Martha Washington very beautifully. And they really make clear

how important she was that she was not just a hostess.

Susan Swain: Next up is Shirley (ph) watching us in Tucson. Hi Shirley (ph), you're on.

Shirley (ph): Yes. I'd like to ask a question about the Custis-Lee Mansion in Arlington has. So ….

Susan Swain: Have you been to visit it?

Shirley (ph): Pardon me?

Susan Swain: Have you been to visit it?

Shirley (ph): Oh yes, several times. I grew up in Washington area. And I was just there and I saw

that it was being renovated. And I was just curious. I don't really remember all of the – why it was in

the Custis family.

Susan Swain: OK, thanks very much.

Patricia Brady: Well, because the – Martha's grandson, Washington Custis, who was adopted along

with his sister Nelly by the Washingtons and lived with them throughout their lives. When he – after

the Washingtons died and he was on his own, he decided to build a beautiful mansion which he did

and called – and it was Arlington. So, this was the Custis Mansion. And, in fact, never belonged to

Robert Lee.

Robert married the – Mary Custis' daughter and cared for it and lived there when he wasn't out on the

frontier some place building buildings and all. But it passed from Washington Custis to his daughter

Mary to the Lee’s son. Lee himself was more of a caretaker than anything else. But, of course, he's

the most famous of them all so his name is included.

Richard Norton Smith: Also, if you want to humanize the Washingtons, it's a wonderful universal

story about how George and Martha agreed to disagree about George Washington Parke Custis,

known as young Wash or Tub, who was, I think most people agree, spoiled royally by his

grandmother. He was in and out of school.

And there are these wonderful letters in which Washington is pouring out the benefit of his wife's

experience about, you know, how if you worked all day long. It's amazing how much you can get

done, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Totally wasted on Tub who would go on to become famous for

his connection to George Washington.

Susan Swain: When the new couple married, George Washington was in the process of building

Mount Vernon. And they …

Patricia Brady: Well, Mount Vernon existed as a four-room farm house. But it was in the process of

adding a second storey. So then it was an eight-room house with attic area at the top.

Susan Swain: Doing that to bring his new wife there or it was …

Patricia Brady: And he was – he paid for it himself, too. And I think it was partly his pride that he

didn't want to be marrying a rich woman and using her money to make his house. I think it was to

show that he too had a lot to offer.

Susan Swain: Both of you have spent hundreds of hours at Mount Vernon. Is it fair to call it the

center piece of the Washington's existence?

Richard Norton Smith: Oh, I think so.

Patricia Brady: Oh, definitely.

Richard Norton Smith: Absolutely.

Patricia Brady: Of course.

Richard Norton Smith: Yes, it was the Northstar. The place they always wanted to return to, the

place they were happiest. And, you know, and yet it's remarkable, not to jump ahead. But, you

know, after the president died, maybe the greatest sacrifice of all that Martha was asked to make and

yet the last ultimate she was willing to have his remains removed from Mount Vernon and moved to

the new Capitol building in Washington, D.C. Fortunately, that never happened. Bureaucracy took

over.

Patricia Brady: Shows how good – how bad politics sometimes works out well.

Richard Norton Smith: That's true.

Patricia Brady: They got to arguing and so they did not take him away.

Susan Swain: Well, let's show you next some of the views of Mount Vernon when we visited it with

our cameras.

Female: It's clear that after Martha arrived at Mount Vernon in April of 1759, there's a lot of

management that she has to do. When she marries George Washington, she brings with her to Mount

Vernon 12 house slaves. And that is really almost an unimaginable luxury. These are slaves who, for

the most part, are not field labor, or not producing crops which is where your income is coming from.

They are doing things like cooking, serving at table, cleaning the house, doing the laundry, doing

sewing. This is not productive labor in the sense that it's not producing income.

And so, she brings those slaves with her and she brings financial resources to the marriage as well as

her managerial skills makes Mount Vernon a successful operation and makes it possible for

Washington to be away for eight years fighting a war. So the fact that Washington has this support

system that enables him to volunteer his time and talents to run the revolution is clearly critical.

There's a farm manager who, during most of the revolution, is Lund Washington, a distant cousin of

George Washington. And then later in the 1780s, the farm manager is George Augustine

Washington, who is Washington's nephew. And he ends up marrying Fanny Bassett who is Martha

Washington's niece. So I think that tells you something about the closeness of some of the family

relationships.

But it's clear from the correspondence that while they're at Mount Vernon with Martha Washington,

she was a take charge woman.

In terms of her interaction with the slaves, she's interacting with the cooks in the kitchen, the maids

who are serving in the house. There are also slave women who are spinning on a continual basis to

produce yarn. She's supervising what the gardeners are doing. Martha was a great lover of gardens

and having cut flowers. She liked having a kitchen garden that she could go out and bring in

vegetables for what they're going to be able to serve at Mount Vernon. She's the one who is really

planning the menus. There are just a lot of levels that she is working with. So that's – we know that

it's a big operation, really, the center of her whole life.

Susan Swain: If you visit Mount Vernon today and with the years of additional documentary

research, how close is it to recreating the life that George and Martha Washington experienced?

Patricia Brady: Nothing today can recreate the life of that time because for one thing, they would

have to take all of the motorized vehicles away. They would have to have haystacks. They would

have to have manure piles. They would have to have outdoor toilets. They were so much about the

life that was so much more primitive than it is. But as close as you can today, it's very good. It is,

I've said, it's the leader in the historical houses.

Susan Swain: George Washington's crops were what and what kind of a businessman was he?

Richard Norton Smith: Actually, that's one of the aspects of his life that is least understood. He was

– for those of who think of him as kind of reflexive conservative, they should take a look at his

approach to agriculture which is probably the thing he loved about -- he had great passion for it. And

he was a real experimental farmer. He realized, for example, that this which is not great fertile soil …

Patricia Brady: Right.

Richard Norton Smith: … to begin with, was being exploited by tobacco. That tobacco really should

be a crop of the past. And he experimented with over 60 different crops to see what would work best.

The other thing a very quick point I just want to make was the apprenticeship that running Mount

Vernon offered. If there was an ad, you know, for first lady in 1789, Martha Washington's prior

experience really qualified her uniquely. And one of the things that she did, if you go to Mount

Vernon today, you'll notice there are two in effect wings that were added during the revolution which,

by the way, she oversaw a construction is the dining room which is a very public space.

And then there's a very private wing that contains their bedroom and his study. And one of the jobs

she had, they had 600 people a year, strangers who showed up just because they wanted to see the

most famous man on earth. They were all welcome. They were all greeted. Most of them were fed.

They were given a bed overnight. But even Washington got sick of the demands. So he would

disappear in the evening. He’d go to his study and work leaving Martha to converse with the visitors.

Susan Swain: Martha Washington and George's bedroom was one of the other videos we chose

because there's so much to see there. Let's watch that now.

Patricia Brady: OK.

Female: The room that we refer to and show off in the mansion as the Washington's bedchamber is a

room that was part of the South Wing of the mansion here at Mount Vernon that was started in 1775

right before George Washington left to participate in the Continental Congress and then the

revolutionary war. George Washington does always refer to it as Mrs. Washington's chamber and it's

clear that it was kind of the center or her nerve center for Mount Vernon.

So, this sort of daily routine was that – when Mrs. Washington got up, she typically spent time in that

chamber doing her hour of spiritual meditation. Perhaps later in the day, writing letters, talking with

her cooks to plan menus for the day, giving assignments for what was to be done that day. When her

grandchildren were young, we know she also used that room for teaching them, reading them stories,

sewing in the afternoons and so you could really imagine, you know, how wonderful it would have

been in that room.

One of the most notable pieces is the bed that is in that bed chamber. That is the bed on which

George Washington died, but we also know from Martha Washington's will that she had a personal

role in acquiring that bed, which is a bit larger than the typical dimensions for an 18th century bed.

So it seems, perhaps, that she's getting kind of a custom made bed for her quite tall husband.

Another piece in the room that has a very closed connection with Martha Washington is her desk.

Although, very little of the correspondence between George and Martha Washington has survived

because Martha Washington destroyed their private correspondence. It was in that desk that two of

their letters were found that they had slipped behind one of the drawers. That desk is very special to

us as kind of the preserver of that little bit of a very personal correspondence.

It's not just a place where she slept. I can just picture her really sitting in her easy chair by the fire

with her grandchildren around, and so we can really imagine how comfortable it must have been for

Martha Washington.

Susan Swain: George and Martha Washington's bedroom at Mount Vernon. One of the things that's

mentioned is her morning meditations which seem to be a sacred time for her throughout her life.

What do we know of what she did during that time?

Patricia Brady: Well, she was a Episcopalian, always. She was a member of the Church of England

and then after the revolution, she became a member of the American Episcopal Church. And she read

the – she had several bibles. She read the Bible, she also read the Book of Common Prayer.

She spent a lot of time also reading other books about the Episcopal point of view and she was a very,

very deeply religious but not judgmental woman.

Susan Swain: What about that video is important to tell people more of, their room together and the

life that they had?

Richard Norton Smith: That's – well, the fact that she burned all their correspondence, in some ways,

is a metaphor. That's where they could be themselves. That's where they could say to each other

what they didn't say anywhere else. And I think one reason why she burned those letters is because

that was the unvarnished George Washington.

It wasn't simply the uniquely intimate relationship that existed between them, she was the only person

on earth to whom Washington could confess his doubts, his fears, his opinions of his colleagues, you

name it.

Susan Swain: But here's …

Patricia Brady: … uncertainty.

Susan Swain: But this is the interesting thing about that, then they both had a sense that they were

creating an image larger than his lifetime that they didn't want to be spoiled by this small detail …

Patricia Brady: But her point of – she was very careful of his papers as was he. You know, they were

always kept in a big trunk. And when they seem they might be in dangerous, the trunk was been

removed, that building his image, but a truthful image, having the letters showing him as a military

man and as a political man were important.

But as far she was concerned, their private life was just that, that ladies did not promenade about

letting their husband's love letters be read, or when they complain or whatever else they did. Those

were private and she had had not enough privacy in her life.

Susan Swain: What were the content of the two letters that were hidden in that desk?

Patricia Brady: They were fabulous. They were both from him to her and that they were in 1775 in

Philadelphia when he has just accepted command of the Continental Army which doesn't exist yet of

a nation which doesn't exist yet at 1775 without asking her, writing and saying, "My dearest, I had to

accept this – my honor required it, but please my dear Patsy, don't be angry with me." And he goes

on and on about why it's important and why she needs to support him. And before he goes off to

become the leader of the war, he makes time to go out and buy some of the nicest new muslin in town

so she can make some nice dresses out of it. I mean, that's a husband worth having.

Richard Norton Smith: Yes, I don't think anyone reading those letters would subscribe to the – still

widely held view that their relationship was, in some ways, a business like one.

Patricia Brady: No, because they weren't young at this point at all. They were in their 50s.

Richard Norton Smith: This was a love match.

Patricia Brady: Yes.

Susan Swain: Let's go back to our viewer calls. Next of up is Gail (ph) in Berryville, Virginia. Hi,

Gail (ph), you're on.

Gail (ph): Hi. Am I talking to somebody?

Susan Swain: You are live on TV right now. Do you have a question?

Gail (ph): Yes, please. My name is Gail (ph) and I have a couple of questions. I'm reading a very

nice easy book called Mount Vernon Love Story by Mary Higgins Clark. And she said that no one

ever called Martha Washington Martha, she was always called Patsy, as Lady Bird Johnson was never

called Claudia. And – so I was just wondering. But I just heard that you mentioned that in his letters

to – when he referred to her in his letter that it was just mentioned on the television that he did call

her Patsy.

And I also wanted to mention that in the story that I'm reading about Martha and George Washington

that the house Mount Vernon was originally the home of his half brother, George Washington's half

brother that he lived in a smaller farm. And I wondered if would – are going to talk anything about

his years as a surveyor, or is this really about the years with Martha as an adult? So …

Susan Swain: Thanks very much. This is actually Martha Washington's time in the sense that we

will be talking about George's early career but how about the nickname Patsy?

Patricia Brady: The nickname Patsy. That was Patsy, Pat or Patty were the nicknames for Martha in

those days. Just as Peg or Peggy is a nickname for Margaret. The Martha nickname has fallen out of

favor, but nobody was named Patricia back then. The only Patsys were Martha, so that was simply

the common name.

Susan Swain: And the smaller farm that she was referencing?

Patricia Brady: It's – well, it was smaller because it was only 500 acres at that point. It only –

Washington was able to acquire more acreage with Martha's money, but it was the farm house that his

brother lived in was the four-room farm house I was mentioning that he then added a second storey

to.

Susan Swain: Sherry (ph) is watching us in Arlington, Texas. Hi, Sherry (ph).

Sherry (ph): Hello, thank you for taking my call. I have a question regarding Sally Fairfax. I'm

wondering if you can clarify that relationship George had with her, which apparently continued until

after the Revolutionary War. Was she aware of that relationship and how did she honestly deal with

that or was that something that just was not discussed?

Susan Swain: Mr. Smith, you want to start?

Richard Norton Smith: One of us thought that I can …

Patricia Brady: The will disagree.

Richard Norton Smith: All right.

Patricia Brady: You disagree.

Richard Norton Smith: Here is a classic example of where, unfortunately, Mrs. Washington did her

cause no good by burning all of those letters. In the late 1950s, two letters were discovered, which

the then sort of reigning Washington biographer James Thomas Flexner made a great deal out of.

Some would say, perhaps, exaggerated their …

Patricia Brady: Way too much.

Richard Norton Smith: … their significance. Sally Fairfax was the wife of George William Fairfax,

who was a neighbor and close friend. Some people describe him as Washington's best friend. They

were the at Belvoir but it's just river from Mount Vernon.

Clear – well, I think clearly, there was – I would use the word infatuation. Sally was an older –

slightly older, very sophisticated to someone like George who wanted, as a young man, very much to

belong, who wanted to be part of the colonial aristocracy, who wanted to advance in the British

military.

And so, someone like Sally who was even then, I think, unobtainable, nevertheless, held a special

allure. Exactly what the nature of that relationship was is still being debated. It's – you talked about

George Washington's integrity. I think it was something even then, I don't think the relationship went

beyond a kind of love sick young man. But I'd like to hear your view.

Patricia Brady: Well, actually then we won't disagree, that there's no doubt when those two letters

surfaced that you can't read them any other way. But that he was a love sick puppy. But they hardly

make sense, when you read them sentence by sentence and try to punctuate them, is he is just sort of

going crazy because she has said something mean to him about not writing to her, and he's gone nuts.

And you see how much he cares about her and how infatuated he is. I don't think once – I too don't

think it went any further than that kind of infatuation, because he did care too much about his friend.

But, once he met Martha and once they started to settle down. I think she had to have known, she

was a smart woman. She could certainly – when he started talking about the elegant neighbors of

Belvoir, she had to have picked up a special tone.

But they became actually best friends, those couples visited all the time. Sally Fairfax and her

husband were there when Patsy Custis dropped dead after getting up from the dining room table and

were at her funeral because it was in the mid summer and she had to be buried.

So, they were very close. And then in 1773 as it's becoming clear that a revolution is coming about,

then the Fairfaxes go back to England never to return. So there's no continuing relationship beyond

friendship.

Susan Swain: We're going to take a quick question from Mary (ph) who's watching in a place, I

presumed, is named after the Fairfax’s family, Fairfax, Virginia. Hi, Mary (ph).

Patricia Brady: There you go.

Mary (ph): Hi. Mary (ph), an ancestor of Martha Washington, my – her younger brother,

Bartholomew, was a great, great, great uncle of mine. And I was also born in New Kent County,

Virginia. And I had a couple of questions pertaining to Martha's younger life.

I had always heard growing up that she was – had met George Washington at Poplar Grove, which

was the plantation property next door to the White House. And that he had been the guest of the

Chamberlains there for dinner and not knowing that Martha was invited also. And that was where

they met.

Susan Swain: Well the, you know …

Mary (ph): The other question I have is, I understood that she attended somewhat St. Peters

Episcopal Church there in New Kent County which was a very short distance from the White House.

Susan Swain: Thanks. To clarify, when we reference the White House, it's not the White House that

we know.

Patricia Brady: Right. White House is the plantation on the Pamunkey River, where Daniel Custis is

the lord and master there. Yes, St. Peters was their church. There are different stories about how they

met. Some people have said that she and George had known each other for a long time. I don't think

there's much really much belief in that because when you do run the numbers of when he was out in

the field fighting and when she could have been in Williamsburg if they had met, it didn't amount to

very much.

And they – the whole Chamberlain story really comes from Wash Custis who likes to write about

everything as a grand old-fashioned romance. And the Chamberlains themselves believed it. I don't

believe it, but certainly there is some evidence for it for those who do.

Susan Swain: Time to move onto the Revolutionary War 1776, 1783, George Washington pressed

into service as the leader of the Continental Army. Martha Washington leaves Mt. Vernon to spend

time with him, how many times, how frequently was she on the – in the battlefield with him.

Patricia Brady: She goes every winter to join him in the camp. And to make a home, not just for

him, but for all of the young officers who are on his staff, and to encourage other officers to bring

their wives and daughters to come and visit and make it a social time. Out of the actual eight years of

the revolution, she spends, overall, five years …

Susan Swain: We …

Patricia Brady: … at the front.

Susan Swain: We have a video from one of those encampments, Valley Forge in the Pennsylvania –

Philadelphia suburbs. Let's watch that next.

Female: Martha Washington came to Valley Forge on the 5th of February of 1778. She arrives here,

according to General Nathanael Green, in the evening. It takes her 10 days to travel here to Valley

Forge from Mount Vernon. We know too that the weather, what the weather was like while she was

traveling which was not always so pleasant, because it started out snowing when she left from the

Mount Vernon area.

And then, the winds picked up and then it started to rain, it became very, very muddy. And when she

finally arrived here on February the 5th, that was actually quite pleasant and the weather was 35. But

for a lot of the time, she was traveling through mud in her carriage with her slaves and servants with

her. And this was a difficult journey. You know, it's very interesting to look at the primary

documentation which are the letters and journals and diaries at the time to see what Martha did do at

Valley Forge.

And I think it's a little surprising and it really puts a different complexion, I think, on the entire Valley

Forge encampment. I think number one, of course, was to be with General Washington. They had a

very nice relationship. If she was going to see him, she would have to come to him.

We also know that when she comes here to Valley Forge, she probably takes over the housekeeping

duties, which was very much what she was used to, of course, at Mount Vernon.

We also know that she entertained. We know that Elizabeth Drinker came to Valley Forge, she came

on the 6th of April. She came with several of her friends. So we know that Mrs. Washington

entertained and talked to visitors when they came to Valley Forge when General Washington was not

able to do that.

We also know and this, I think, is when it starts to get very interesting. She served elegant dinners

here at Valley Forge. Now, most people would never put the word elegant together with the word

Valley Forge. This is probably where Martha Washington dined for a while until the log hut built for

dining which she said, "Made our conditions much more tolerable than they were at first", that's a

quote from her, was built right back near the kitchen.

So you can imagine Martha Washington here with some of the officers, General Washington, perhaps

some of the people from the area who might have been passing through, eating dinner here which was

served in the afternoon, maybe 2:00 or 3:00.

The food, by the way, that they ate here was really very different from what soldiers were eating. We

know, for example, that there were 2,000 eggs brought into Valley Forge that they ate during the

encampment period, a six-month period, of course, for the Valley Forge encampment.

We know that there were brought in 750 pounds of butter. And we know that at least 1,600 pounds of

veal were brought into camp. These are some of the things that Martha Washington would be eating

here as she was dining with people. Conversations kind of interesting to think about, what would

Martha Washington and the other people have been talking about.

We don't really know, of course. But when Elizabeth Drinker came from Philadelphia, very likely the

conversation at that point would have been what were conditions like in Philadelphia. The British, of

course, were in Philadelphia and General Washington would have been very interested to think about

what that conditions were at that time. And Martha would have been part of that conversation and

listening to what was happening, talking to Philadelphia, talking to ladies from Philadelphia which

she very much would have enjoyed.

We know too that Martha Washington went to several worship services here at camp. We know that

on May the 6th, there's a wonderful celebration called the Feu de Joie celebrating the French alliance.

Martha Washington is there and receives in the center of a large tent. And whereas, thousands of

people, officers, the wives, go through and least General DeKalb says thousands of them are

entertained and served refreshments with Martha Washington and General George Washington.

So those were some of the things that Martha is doing here at Valley Forge.

Susan Swain: And we are back talking about Martha Washington with Pat Brady and Richard Norton

Smith. I have a tweet here from a viewer named Jennifer Sherman (ph) who writes amazing how

much time Martha Washington spent with her husband on the front lines. And that's on the front lines

is what I wanted to start with. It sounds a bit gentile that existence we were just hearing about in

Valley Forge. But 2,500 soldiers died in that encampment in that winter.

Richard Norton Smith: It wasn't viewed as gentile by her contemporaries. And, indeed, one of the

things that fostered a bond, an emotional bond between Mrs. Washington and what would be the

American people was the perception that she had sacrificed every bit as much as her husband during

the war.

This is another chapter in her training in a sense for being first lady. He was in effect for eight years

an executive, the closest thing that the country had. And she was a first lady of sorts. And one very

touching story. They had one room on the second floor of Pott's house at Valley Forge. And they

had an hour every morning that was sacred. One hour when they were absolutely not to be disturbed.

And wouldn't you have loved to be a fly on most of those conversations, because undoubtedly, again,

Washington unloaded a lot.

Patricia Brady: And he had a lot to – he had so many worries, would they possibly win. But what

she did and it wasn't just entertaining the Americans, she was entertaining officers from France, from

Britain, from – not Britain, from Germany. And she was able to charm them, one particular French

officer said, "It was so wonderful to be there with her drinking tea, singing and just chatting. And at

the end of the evening one would go home feeling better." Can you imagine feeling better at Valley

Forge, she had charm beyond belief.

Susan Swain: Well, it's also important to know that she had an official role acting as his private –

assistant to his private secretary transcribing documents.

Patricia Brady: That didn't happen often. That was a rare occasion, really.

Susan Swain: But it gave her a glimpse of what his formal job would have been like.

Patricia Brady: That's true, that's true.

Susan Swain: What else from those years, long years were important in her development as first

lady?

Patricia Brady: You know, one thing that I think is really important and it sounds weird, is the

change in her sewing habits, you know, all American women sewed. Well-to-do women sewed,

embroidery, and tapestry and fancy work. When she was there and the local ladies came to call, she

was not doing fancy work. She had the knitting needles out. And she was knitting socks for the

soldiers. Now, these were infantry men. And they marched on those feet, and they got big holes in

their socks. And she must have knitted thousands of socks and encouraged others too, as well as

raising the money to make linen shirts, which served as uniform shirts for them.

So she really physically in terms of her work and emotionally in terms of her leadership helped

support the troops themselves.

Richard Norton Smith: There is a wonderful story where there were a group of women who were –

who knew they were going to be calling upon a general's lady and expected as very grand …

Patricia Brady: Of course.

Richard Norton Smith: … you know, figure. And to their astonishment, they found her knitting and

it's said, and wearing a speckled apron. So she, clearly, was not someone to stand on her position or

on her title.

Susan Swain: Back to phone calls, Elizabeth (ph) is in Washington, D.C. Hi, Elizabeth (ph).

Elizabeth (ph): Hi, thank you all for being here. This series is great, this panel is fantastic. My

question is about Martha Washington's grandchildren. You've mentioned Nelly and Washy and, of

course, Eliza. Could you talk a little bit about Martha Custis Peter because I understand that the two

letters found in the desk mentioned earlier were found by that granddaughter, at least that's the story.

But could you talk a little bit about Martha Custis Peter and her relationship with her grandmother.

Patricia Brady: Well, she was – there were four children, they were Eliza, Martha, known as Patty,

then Nelly, then Wash. And when the adoption happened, when the Washington’s’ adopted two of

the grandchildren, they took the two youngest, they took Nelly and Wash. And the other, the two

elder girls lived with their mother and their stepfather. And then, eventually, lots of half brothers and

sisters.

So the two elder girls were – spent a lot of time with the Washingtons, who were very friendly with

them, but they weren't very loving with them, that they weren't the same as the adopted children.

Patty got married very young apparently for love. And her husband, Thomas Peter, was a well-to-do

man in Georgetown and they built a beautiful house, Tudor place which is opened to the public and

it's an incredibly gorgeous place. And, in fact, at the sale after Martha's death, she bought this desk.

And when she took it home, she found those wonderful letters.

Susan Swain: And another reminder from Marsha Johnson (ph) and we've said this a few times, but

she tweets, "Martha Washington outlived her four children." Pretty unthinkable for many people

today, but not so uncommon during this period of our history.

Patricia Brady: Yes.

Susan Swain: Next phone call is Edward (ph), Nelson County, Virginia. Hi Edward (ph), you're on

the air, welcome.

Edward (ph): Fascinating program. I'm originally from New Windsor, New York. And Newburgh

where George, the General stayed at the Hasbrouck House, the famous room with seven doors and

one window. I was wondering if Martha was there with him and also if she – at the cantonment there

in Vails Gate, the last encampment when they offered him the kingship.

Could you please just expound on that, please? Thank you.

Patricia Brady: She was definitely at Newburgh. She spent a lot of time at Newburgh because, of

course, the war had pretty much worn down. And it was just a case of waiting for all the peace

treaties to be ratified and all. As for the latter part, was she?

Richard Norton Smith: I don't think …

Patricia Brady: I don't think she was.

Richard Norton Smith: That defining moment in American history, I don't think she was there for

that.

Patricia Brady: Yes, I don't either, yes.

Susan Swain: We have about 12 minutes more left in this. And we said when we started 90 minutes

is going to go by so quickly and, in fact, it is. And we started out talking about the important White

House years. Our last segment is going to be on life after the presidency, when the Washingtons

returned to Mount Vernon. But was this also precedent setting what post-presidencies would be like.

Richard Norton Smith: Well, yes. He became, not only the first president, but the first ex-president.

And, of course, she shared in that.

Susan Swain: And did they think about that a lot from what you know?

Richard Norton Smith: No, I think they were just glad to be home.

Susan Swain: Was there any consideration of a third term?

Richard Norton Smith: No.

Patricia Brady: No.

Richard Norton Smith: And indeed, Washington had wanted very much to leave after his first term.

It would allow himself to be persuaded against his instincts that it was his patriotic duty. And I think

it's safe to say Martha was not happy. I mean, Martha wasn't particularly happy that he took the first

term.

Patricia Brady: Right.

Richard Norton Smith: She recognized that it was unavoidable and her life too had become caught up

in that of her country. I think – I’m not sure she would have divorced him if there had been a third

term. But she, you know, a third term was not in the cards from either one of their standpoint.

Susan Swain: Now, they were in their mid 60s when they came back to Mount Vernon. And you

remind us that mid 60s and this time period was …

Patricia Brady: Elderly.

Susan Swain: … elderly.

Patricia Brady: Well, and he had – he, twice, had ailments that almost killed him during the time that

he was president. And she was terrified that the presidency would literally kill him. When you think

about every president we know and you look at the pictures of when they start and eight years later,

they're more than eight years older for sure. It's a very aging kind of a job.

Susan Swain: But we look at the political battles we're facing today over immigration and over the

size of the federal debt. What were the intensity of the political battles of this timeframe.

Richard Norton Smith: Remember, Washington's success as president depended on his persuading

everyone that he was not a political partisan. He didn't call it a federalist government, he called it a

national government. He went out of his way to include all of the sections of the country. He – of

course, Hamilton and Jefferson had their cockfight in the cabinet, much to his displeasure. He kept

those people around him long after they wanted to leave. He made that sacrifice. He was willing to

see himself pilloried in the press as a dupe of King George and someone who would betray the

revolution.

And Martha had to suffer all of this and, in effect, vicariously. It's always been harder and in some

ways for a first lady or a presidential child to put up with the criticism then than for the president,

who accepts it as part of the job.

Susan Swain: But you've told us she's not a political. So she had to have been involved in …

Patricia Brady: Oh, she was. And she took Madison, Jefferson into hatred. She hated Thomas

Jefferson once he started his newspaper campaigns against Washington. And the reason he brought

Washington into it, of course, was to defeat Hamilton. And he said, "Oh, it's a shame how much the

president suffers from these sorts of attacks, but it's necessary to build our party, so oh well." And

she never forgave it, never. He did not – he never realized that she was smart enough to see what he

was doing. But she thought he was horrible and the fact that he was elected president was shocking.

Susan Swain: He made the mistake of underestimating Martha Washington.

Patricia Brady: Oh, very much.

Richard Norton Smith: The flip side of that is that Martha grew even closer personally and finally

politically to the Adamses. And she was certainly glad that it was John Adams and not …

Patricia Brady: Right.

Richard Norton Smith: … Thomas Jefferson who won the presidency to succeed her husband.

Susan Swain: And, of course, next week on first ladies, we will delve in for 90 minutes to the life of

the very interesting Abigail Adams. And this does helps to set the stage for that. How many years

post-presidency did they live at Mount Vernon?

Patricia Brady: Well, he lived two years and then she lived two and a half beyond that.

Susan Swain: And what was that time like, their last two years together as a couple.

Patricia Brady: Oh, they had a great time. You know, the house, again, it sort of broken down and

things in the fields weren't being done the way he wanted them to be. Experimenting with a million

crops and dealing with the gristmill and the – with the distillery and all of the things that he pioneered

with. She had to reorganize the housekeeping. But what's so interesting, I think, is that Mount

Vernon becomes the symbol of the nation after they retire. There is no White House yet, you know,

that's not built. The Washington, D.C. is building up, but it doesn't really exist.

So when – it doesn't exist as a large place. But, when foreigners and when important visitors come,

who – what do they want to see? There's no building worth seeing in D.C. They want to see Mount

Vernon, and they want to see Washington. And after Washington dies, they want to see Martha

Washington and talk to her about what it was like. They see her as the living remnant of that history

that they continue to have their posts until they die, both of them.

Richard Norton Smith: And the other thing of course remember, the defining act that he took in the

last summer of his life when he sat down and wrote a will in the course of which he identified himself

as George Washington, a citizen of the United States, not Virginia. But even more important in

which he made provisions to free those slaves that he could upon the death of Martha. And that,

presumably, is something that he had to have consulted her about, although I don't think we have any

primary evidence to that thing.

Patricia Brady: We don't, but he must have.

Susan Swain: After George Washington died, Martha left that bedroom that we just showed you and

moved to a garret as it's called in the mansion. Let's see what that looks like today.

Female: George Washington does die very suddenly. So it must have been a great shock, Martha

was very bereaved. And she does retreat, she does not use their shared bedchamber after his death.

She moves to the garret bedchamber on the third floor. And it is furnished now with the actual bed

that we believe came to the Washingtons in 1750s from London. And it is hung with hanging space

on a little fragment that was preserved in a 19th century Valentine written by Martha's granddaughter,

Nelly. And that Valentine says that this is fabric from the curtains that hung in the room in which

Mrs. Washington died here at Mount Vernon.

That fabric and that little scrap of Valentine exactly matches the description of the hangings that came

with this bed that the Washingtons or that George Washington got from London in the 1750s. So it

points to this very romantic tale that after George Washington's death, Martha Washington moves

upstairs, but surrounds herself with things from the very earliest days of their marriage.

So I think it really was a place of refuge for her and it was a place where, you know, that the house

continued to be busy with servants, with the slaves, with people visiting. So it's a place that she could

really retreat to and be quiet and contemplate and be kind of removed from that hustle and bustle of

daily life.

Patricia Brady: Well, when Washington died, she said, "It's over, my life is just waiting now." And

so, she really and truly did not want to be in that room where they had been so happy.

Susan Swain: Did she involve herself – people wanted to come see her, did she stay involved in any

of the politics of the day?

Richard Norton Smith: Not the politics of the day, she became, if anything, I think even more

secluded, certainly emotionally secluded. Her devotions became, perhaps, even more central to her

day. Every day, she would walk down the path to the tomb, what's called the old tomb, which you

can see today and would pray. And, basically, Pat’s right, she was literally counting the days until

she could be reunited with the love of her life. And, of course, when you factor in her religious

convictions …

Patricia Brady: Exactly.

Richard Norton Smith: … that's just another factor to take into account.

Susan Swain: We have two minutes left time for a quick final question from Julie (ph) in Alexandria,

Virginia, right up the road from Mount Vernon and George Washington's port city. Hi, Julie (ph).

Julie (ph): Hello. George Washington and George Mason were very good friends. George Mason

had two wives. Ann -- she passed away and then Sarah. I was wondering what the relationship was

between Martha Washington and either of George Mason's wives.

Susan Swain: Thank you.

Patricia Brady: They were friendly neighbors. But I don't – as far as I know, they never became

intimate friends.

Richard Norton Smith: And, in fact, that friendship sadly was a political casualty.

Patricia Brady: Right.

Richard Norton Smith: George Mason and George Washington who had been friends and

collaborators in the period leading up to the revolution. But after the constitutional convention which,

of course, Washington sanctioned and Mason refused to sign, it really spelled in many ways and end

to their friendship.

Patricia Brady: Exactly.

Susan Swain: Well, on Twitter, someone said as, "George and Martha Washington quite the power

couple." So, as we close out here just kind of bringing us full circle, what are the important things for

people to know about the influence of Martha Washington?

Patricia Brady: I think it's important to know how smart and powerful she was, and how dependent

he was on her. His achievements were his achievements. But having her there with him made them

much more possible.

Richard Norton Smith: And I think that's true. I think she defines influence in a way that perhaps

contemporary Americans …

Patricia Brady: Right.

Richard Norton Smith: … might have difficulty understanding. But the fact of the matter is she was

the most influential person on the face of the earth with the president of the United States.

Susan Swain: This is Richard Norton Smith's biography of George Washington, Patriarch still

available if you'd like to learn more about the life of our first President. And we've been talking a lot

about Pat Brady's book Martha Washington with its striking portrait of the young Martha on the

cover. And it is also widely available for people who would like to know more.

Our partners for this entire series is the White House Historical Association. And they've been

helping us with lots of documentary evidence and with our background materials we get ready for the

series. And we have to say thanks to them as we finish up this first program. And we also have a

group of academic advisers of which Mr. Smith is one, you'll see many of them as the program

progresses. And we thank them for their help in getting this series to air for us. We have a robust

website with lots of video. So if we’ve whetted your appetite and you'd like to learn more,

cspan.org/firstladies.

Thanks for being with us tonight.

Female: Next Monday, a first lady who was considered more modern for her time. Abigail Adams,

sometimes called Mrs. President by her detractors. She was outspoken about slavery and women's

rights. And as a prolific writer, she provides a window into Colonial America and her life with John

Adams. We'll visit Quincy, Massachusetts, Boston, Philadelphia, and Washington to explore her

triumphs and tragedies. And we'll take your phone calls, tweets, and Facebook comments.

Live, next Monday at 9:00 Eastern on C-SPAN, C-SPAN radio, and cspan.org.

Our website has more about fist ladies including a special section "Welcome to the White House"

produced by our partner, the White House Historical Association which chronicles life in the

executive mansion during the tenure of each of the first ladies.

And with the association, we're offering a special edition of the book "first ladies of the United States

of America", including a biography and portrait of each first lady, comments from historians and

from Michelle Obama on the role of first ladies throughout history, now available for the discounted

price of 12.95 plus shipping and handling at cspan.org/products.