FBI Franklin interview - National Law Enforcement … · Franklin: Ah, yes. My father’s name was...

© Society of Former Special Agents of the FBI, Inc. 2008

Interview of George E. Franklin – Son of

Former Special Agent of the FBI George H. (Harrison) Franklin (1932 – 1956)

Interviewed by Brian R. Hollstein On April 29, 2008

Edited for spelling, repetitions, etc. by Sandra Robinette on June 24, 2008. Final edit with Mr. Franklin’s corrections by Sandra Robinette on August 12, 2008 Brian R. Hollstein: April 29, 2008. I’m talking to George Franklin in Albuquerque,

New Mexico. Let me read this Copyright form here … the one I’ll be sending out to you.

“We, the undersigned, convey the rights to the intellectual

content of our interview on this date to the Society of Former Special Agents of the FBI. This transfer is in exchange for the Society’s efforts to preserve the historical legacy of the FBI and its members. We understand that portions of this interview may be deleted for security purposes. Unless otherwise restricted, we agree that acceptable sections can be published on the World Wide Web and the recordings transferred to an established repository for preservation and research.”

So that’s what I’ll be sending out to you. George Franklin: Okay. Hollstein: That’ll come out in the mail in the next couple of days. To start out, could I have your father’s name, please? Franklin: Ah, yes. My father’s name was George H. Franklin … H for

Harrison. Hollstein: Uh-huh. And you didn’t mention Junior so I gather you’re a … Franklin: I’m George E. for Edward. Hollstein: Oh. Okay. Good. That’s like the Bushes. Franklin: Yes.

George E. Franklin April 29, 2008

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Hollstein: Okay. Do you recall your father’s dates … date of birth, or just a general time frame?

Franklin: Well, yes. His date of birth was July 7, 1903. Hollstein: Uhm-hmm. Franklin: And he died in October of 1978. Hollstein: Okay. And where was he born? Franklin: He was born just north of Pecos, Texas, a little town along the

Pecos River that doesn’t exist anymore. It got washed away a couple of times.

Hollstein: (Chuckling) Franklin: And they called it Dixieland. His family had a 26-section ranch

there up until 1915 when his father got sick and they had to move back to be near other family in the Chicago, Illinois, area.

Hollstein: Uh-huh. So he generally grew up in Chicago, then? Franklin: Well, yes. Well, his early childhood was on the ranch in Pecos. Hollstein: Right. Franklin: And then he sold newspapers on the streets of Chicago as a

young man. And then just after World War I, I think it was about 1918, his mother and his unmarried sisters and himself moved to New Mexico. Mostly for health reasons for one of the sisters. And he became a New Mexican in about 1918.

Hollstein: Uh-huh. Okay. That’s pretty far moving there - Pecos to

Chicago to New Mexico. Franklin: Ohhh, a little bit. A little bit of culture shock, I’m sure. Hollstein: (Laughing) Where did he go to school, then? Franklin: Well, of course, he went to school in Pecos, Texas… Hollstein: Oh, yeah. Yeah.


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Franklin: … in the early years; finished high school in Chicago; wasn’t able, of course, to go to a college because the family didn’t have that kind of resources. So when he got to New Mexico, as soon as he was old enough, at the age of 18, he became a Deputy Sheriff here. Bernalillo County, New Mexico, which is where Albuquerque is. And was a Deputy Sheriff for a little over a year. And, I guess, 1921 and early ’22, he joined the Albuquerque Police Department.

Hollstein: And then how long was he with them? Franklin: He was with APD for about ten years until he joined the Bureau

in 1932. Hollstein: Okay. Was he among the group that were … they were hired in,

I guess, from law enforcement, that had considerable experience in law enforcement?

Franklin: Ahh, yes. I guess in the years after Hoover took over the Bureau,

he had a lot of college-trained individuals but he was, felt he was lacking a little street police-cop experience. So they decided to hire some non-degreed people who had a bunch of police experience and my dad was one of those.

Hollstein: Uhm-hmm. Yeah, because I think around that time, also, people

like Jelly Bryce and several others came in. Franklin: Yes, (unintel) Jelly Bryce and Charlie Winstead and Jim Durrett

and a whole bunch of folks from the Oklahoma City PD … Hollstein: Right. Franklin: … were in that category. Few of them had any college but they

had a lot of police experience and some of them had other talents. My dad was the only fingerprint-trained officer on the Albuquerque PD and that was a skill that was needed by the Bureau in the early ‘30s.

Hollstein: Good. Did he have any reputation as a gunman? Franklin: Well, I’ve got a bunch of old newspaper clippings where he won

a lot of target shooting contests around town. He was involved in a couple of shootings here, in the ‘20s, mostly with local bootleggers.


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Hollstein: Okay. But he wasn’t particularly known? Franklin: Ah, no. I think he did everything he could to keep not from

being known (laughing). Hollstein: (Laughing) Some of the guys that came from Oklahoma were,

were real old-time gunmen like you’d think of in western movies.

Franklin: Ohh, yeah. Oklahoma was pretty tough country, always has been

and parts of it still are. Hollstein: Uhm-hmm. So your father came on duty, then, in 1932? Franklin: Right. Hollstein: Yeah. And how long was he with the Bureau? Franklin: He was with the Bureau until 1956, summer of ’56 he left the

Bureau. Hollstein: Oh, so he had a full career, then? Franklin: Oh yeah. Yeah. Hollstein: And where did he start off with his assignments? Franklin: … his first … Of course, this is all before I was born. I wasn’t

born until ’38. But I think his first office was Charlotte, North Carolina. And that was for a very short period of time. I think the Bureau kind of had a policy of putting you someplace to kinda get checked out and you’d probably wouldn’t be there very long before you’d get transferred to where you were needed more.

Hollstein: Right. Well, that was kept up until fairly modern times. Franklin: Uhm-hmm. Hollstein: Yeah. That first office and then you’d move. Franklin: Yeah.


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Hollstein: It was a year when I was in. And for quite a long time it’s been that way. And now it seems to have changed a little bit.

Franklin: Right. I think my dad, his first duty, once he finished FBI basic

training, was escorting President Hoover for a couple of days. And then he went to Charlotte and wasn’t there very long, just a matter of months. And I’ve got a letter, actually a telegram, transferring him to, ohh, I believe it is the Oklahoma. Yeah, Oklahoma City Office in ’32.

Hollstein: Uh-huh. Okay. Now you mentioned, did I misunderstand it …

or did I understand it, you have some papers from your father? Franklin: Ahh yes. My mother kept a scrapbook and so it’s full of old

newspaper articles. And I have several letters; several photographs; quite a bit of historical objects.

Hollstein: Great! Let’s talk about that a little bit later on. Franklin: Okay. Hollstein: I’m very much interested in finding things like that. Franklin: Yes. Hollstein: So he was Oklahoma City. Franklin: Right. Hollstein: And how long was he there? Do you know? Franklin: Let’s see. I know that he was in the Kansas City Office in 1934,

so I think he was probably just in Oklahoma City a couple of years, or most of two years, before he was transferred over to Kansas City.

Hollstein: Okay. Franklin: And, of course, Oklahoma City and Kansas City aren’t that far

apart. Probably about a day’s drive, even back in those days. So he worked all that area, all the, I guess what they called a tri-state area, there.

Hollstein: Uhm-hmm.


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Franklin: Oklahoma City about two years. Hollstein: Okay. So he had two years there and then on to Kansas City.

Let’s go right straight through his career and then we’ll come back and talk about the various locations.

Franklin: Okay. Hollstein: That would help getting some order to it, then. So he was in

Kansas City around 1934. And how long was he there? Franklin: I think he left there in ’37 and went to El Paso because I was

born in El Paso in ’38. We’d probably been there about a year when that came about.

Hollstein: Uh-huh. Franklin: And then he was in the El Paso Office until, let’s see, early ’45. Hollstein: Oh, that was a good long time. Franklin: Yeah. And then we moved up to Albuquerque. Hollstein: Uhm-hmm. Franklin: And he was at the Albuquerque Office until his retirement in

1956. Hollstein: Uh-huh. Okay. Did you ever have any leanings toward the FBI? Franklin: Well, yeah I did. When I was going to college here, I was the

night clerk in the records department for the Albuquerque PD and they were trying to get me to go with APD. And then, of course, I was going to college, so there was some possibility of my following my dad’s lead, but I was also in the Marine Corps Reserve and they told me they had airplanes and they’d even let me go fly’em.

Hollstein: (Laughing) Franklin: So I ended up as a Marine Corps Fighter Pilot for the rest of my

career.


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Hollstein: (Laughing) Yeah, there’s a lot of attraction to piloting especially if somebody gives you a great big plane and lots of noise and action. It’s great!

Let’s see. We’ll go back to, well, maybe we’ll just start now in

terms of telling me some of the stories you heard from your father and then we’ll try to hook'em into where he was.

Franklin: Okay. Hollstein: We’ll start off with Oklahoma City. Did he have much to say

about the time there? Franklin: Okay. Yes. That was a, I think, a memorable tour for him. And

I have a photograph of him with the Oklahoma City Detective Bureau that was taken in ’32 and there are people in the picture … oh, guys like Jerry Campbell that, I think, later on went in the Bureau. Clarence Hurt, Delf Bryce. I think there’s a couple others in there also that ended up in the Bureau. And let’s see … I keep trying to think, oh yeah, during that time, I think it was in ’32, as a matter of fact, he was involved in the taking of Wilbur Underhill.

Hollstein: Uh-huh. Franklin: Which was a pretty nasty shootout. Underhill was wounded and

died some time later and there was a woman. I think Eva Mae Nichols, I think was her name …

Hollstein: Uh-huh. Franklin: … girlfriend of, I think, one of Underhill’s partners who was shot

and killed there. I know my dad felt really bad about that. He was one of the Agents that escorted her to the hospital and she lived a day or two, I think. But that was an innocent civilian shot in that episode and it kind of really disturbed my dad.

Hollstein: Oh sure. Sure. What was Underhill known for? Franklin: Well, he was known, I think … he had several nicknames. The

Tri-State Bandit, the Tri-State Terror, he was a hold-up man and bank robber in the Oklahoma, Missouri, Kansas area.

Hollstein: Uhm-hmm.


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Franklin: And I think he was involved, or a suspect, in a couple of shootings too. He was a pretty noted tough case.

Hollstein: There were a lot of them around that time. Well, it was called

the Gangster Era. Franklin: Yeah. Hollstein: And people like Bonnie and Clyde and many others that

eventually got nailed one way or another. Franklin: Well, the Midwest raised some pretty tough cases on both sides

of the law. (Chuckling) Hollstein: (Laughing) Absolutely. Are the pictures, the photo that you had

that you’d mentioned with the Detective Bureau, are the people identified in it?

Franklin: Oh, some of them are. As a matter of fact, if you’ve got about

five seconds, I can get hold of it. Let me get it. Hollstein: Okay. Franklin: A big, long panoramic picture. Says, “Detectives in Plainclothes

Division, Oklahoma City Police Department.” And on the back, my dad wrote, “May 1934. George Franklin.” And people identified in there are Smokey Hilbert, who was a Detective [and] later on became Chief of Police. I’ve met him a couple times.

Hollstein: Uh-huh. Franklin: Jerry Campbell, who I think later became an Agent with the

Bureau; my dad; Mickey Ryan, Clarence Hurt, D.A. Bryce, Chief of Police Brannon and Chick Ferris.

Hollstein: Oh great! So they’re all identified. Is this an original photo that

you have? Franklin: Ahh, yes it is. As a matter of fact, I sent a couple of copies out to

some folks. I could probably get you one too, if you’d like. Hollstein: Well, I’m going to ask that … later on in the conversation,

maybe I’ll give you an address.


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Franklin: Okay. Hollstein: And if you wouldn’t mind packaging the stuff up that you have,

we’ll make copies of it and then return it to you, if that’s alright. Franklin: Okay. Hollstein: And then we’ll also give you a disk so you’ll have something

you can make more copies for grandchildren and great-grandchildren or what have you.

Franklin: Okay. Hollstein: That would be good. Yeah, we’re always looking for these

things, especially. We’re associated now with the National Law Enforcement Museum and they’re looking for original material. So you may want to consider that for the future.

Franklin: Okay. Hollstein: So that was his first experience then, I gather, with a shootout of

this kind of thing. Franklin: I think that was his first shooting with the Bureau. Yeah. Hollstein: Yeah. Yeah. Well, it had to be disturbing. Franklin: Also, during this time in Oklahoma City there was a rash of

kidnappings. And, for one reason or another, my dad ended up sort of being on the kidnapping team. I think, seems to me, that an Agent by the name of A.J. Connelly was kind of the head of that. And I’ve got a little list of some of the kidnappings that he worked on ‘cause a lot of them were in the Oklahoma area here. Let me grab it, just a second.

Hollstein: Okay. Sure. Franklin: Yeah. See, one of the earliest ones was the Urschel kidnapping. Hollstein: Uh-huh. Franklin: And I think he was an Oklahoma oil man, lived in the Oklahoma

area. But he also worked on one, Hamm, the beer guy.


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Hollstein: Oh yeah, sure. Franklin: He was a kidnap victim. And up in the northwest part of the

country, Weyerhaeuser, the lumber man … Hollstein: Right. Franklin: … his son, George, was kidnapped. There was a Browe case. I

think that was back east. Mattson, Lure, Bremer, there may be others that I’m not aware of.

Hollstein: Well, did he keep a diary of some kind? Franklin: No, unfortunately, he didn’t. Hollstein: Uh-huh. Franklin: About the only thing I have as a result of any of these is Mr.

Weyerhaeuser was real grateful to get son back unharmed. They even recovered most of the money and successfully prosecuted the perpetrators and so he gave my dad a couple of fancy pistols which I still have.

Hollstein: Oh wonderful! Isn’t that interesting! Franklin: You’re not supposed to do that nowadays but back in those days

you could accept the gifts like that. Hollstein: (Chuckling) Yeah. Oh isn’t that wonderful though. That’s a …

were they engraved or anything? Or have names on it? Franklin: Well, they were later on. They kind of have what they call a

hock shop engraving. Hollstein: Uh-huh (laughing) Franklin: (Chuckling) Nothing fancy. Hollstein: (Laughing) That’s interesting. Any other remembrances from

the OK City days? Franklin: Ohhh, boy I’ll tell ya, I don’t recall. Sure don’t. Hollstein: Okay. And then he moved on to Kansas City.


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Franklin: Okay. Hollstein: And he had what, three, four years there? Franklin: Ahh, yes. I think he got there, well, just before the Kansas City

Massacre. Hollstein: Uh-huh. Franklin: I know he spoke about that ‘cause some of the folks that were

hurt and killed in that case were people he knew. Hollstein: Uhm-hmm. Was he involved in it itself? Franklin: No. You know, he was going to be involved in, in escorting or

meeting. Well, I guess you’re familiar with that case? Hollstein: No. No, I’m not. Franklin: Oh, okay. So, there was Frank Nash, a noted criminal, who had

been apprehended and was being escorted back to Kansas City. They were afraid some of his friends might try to break him loose so he was heavily escorted and met by armed officers at the Union City Station in Kansas City.

Hollstein: Uhm-hmm. Franklin: And three friends of Nash did try to free him there and in the

resulting shooting, I think there were, let’s see, a couple of the local police officers were killed. Otto Reed, the Sheriff, was killed; one Agent was killed and one Agent wounded; and I think another local police officer wounded.

Hollstein: Uhm-hmm. Franklin: And Frank Nash was killed. Hollstein: Uhm-hmm. Franklin: I think the three perpetrators, still a little controversial, but I

think Charles Arthur Floyd, Pretty Boy Floyd, Adam Richetti and Verne Miller were probably the three most likely suspects, but none of them were ever tried. They were all killed before that could happen.


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Hollstein: Uhm-hmm. Franklin: But anyway, my dad was one of the Agents that was supposed to

be involved in that but he had a bad case of flu and they told him to stay home ‘cause nothing was going to happen anyway.

Hollstein: (Laughing) Wow! Well, that’s a fortuitous event, I guess. Franklin: Yeah. Yeah. Hollstein: Unless you like to be in the middle of action. Franklin: Yeah. I think he felt a little guilty for missing it but probably a

good thing he did. I don’t know. Hollstein: Yeah. Well, we’ve had some material, some discussion of Pretty

Boy Floyd. There was an Agent whose son has a diary of the … of that time and we’ve spent some time talking with him about his father and the diary. And he wasn’t there for the Kansas City Massacre but he was there, in fact, got chased by Pretty Boy Floyd and another fella in a car chase.

Franklin: Oh boy! Hollstein: They had murdered a couple of Agents and then had gotten

behind this fellas father, who was an Agent. It ended up with them flying off into a corn field and missed a turn and ran into a corn field and the corn closed around them. And they, essentially, escaped from Floyd and his partner who were carrying a Browning automatic rifle. Do you know what a BAR is?

Franklin: Oh yeah. I carried one of those in my early days with the Marine

Corps. Hollstein: Well, you know then, the kind of fire power that was being

thrown at a couple guys carrying .38s. Franklin: That’s where Sam Crowley was killed, huh? Hollstein: I think so. Yeah. They stole … they killed them and took the

car, but Floyd had been shot. It was, it was exciting times to be in law enforcement.


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Franklin: Was that Floyd or Nelson? Hollstein: Oh, wait a minute, wait a minute. Franklin: I think, I think it was … Hollstein: Baby , ah, yes, yes. I’m sorry. Nelson. You’re right. Franklin: Yeah. Yeah. Hollstein: You’re right. I’ve got to work on my history some more.

(Chuckling) Franklin: (Laughing) That was a long time ago. Hollstein: (Laughing) Franklin: Yeah, that was Lester Gillis … Hollstein: Yeah. Franklin: Pretty Boy Floyd … or, ah … Baby Face Nelson. Hollstein: Pretty Boy … Baby Face … you know, they’re all the same after

awhile. Franklin: Yeah, all those big names, they kinda all blend in together for me

too. Hollstein: (Laughing) Franklin: Yeah. Yeah. Nelson was a partner of John Dillinger for awhile,

too. Hollstein: Yeah. Franklin: Yeah. Hollstein: Yeah. And the Ma Barker case, this particular fellow was there

for the shootout at Ma Barker and her, some of her crowd down in Florida. You could get in to some good stuff very quickly.

Franklin: Oh yeah.


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Hollstein: So after the massacre, then, was your father involved in any other events there?

Franklin: Well, yeah, in ’36. I can’t remember what month right now.

Again, I’ve got all the newspaper articles, which I can get you copies of, but in ’36 they had a couple of fugitives holed up over in Hickman Mills, Missouri, it’s a suburb of Kansas City, Missouri.

Hollstein: Uh-huh. Franklin: And they were kind of the last two members of the George

“Irish” O’Malley gang. Hollstein: Uh-huh. Franklin: Who were kidnap artists and hold-up artists, and I think they

even took a couple of banks. Anyway, the last two of those folks they were looking for were holed up in Hickman Mills and my dad was shot in the shootout there when they captured them. The two fugitives were Clarence Sparger and the other guy was Johnny Langdon.

Hollstein: Uhm-hmm.

Franklin: And Sparger’s wife, Juanita, was there and also, I think, Langdon’s girlfriend.

Hollstein: Uhm-hmm. Franklin: Sparger was pretty badly wounded, but ended up spending the

rest of his life in Alcatraz. Hollstein: Huhh! And Langdon? Franklin: I can’t remember what happened to Johnny Langdon. He went

to prison, I know. Hollstein: Uh-huh. So he survived it. Franklin: Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah, he was too drunk to fight back

(chuckling). He was found hiding in an attic if I recall.


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Hollstein: (Laughing) And you said your father was wounded during that? Franklin: Yeah, he got shot through the upper thigh. Hollstein: Uh-huh. Well, that’s pretty serious up there. Franklin: Well, yeah. Since that was the most serious event in his life, I

guess, I remember him talking about that quite a bit. Hollstein: Uh-hmm. And how did that happen? Franklin: Well, ah, let’s see, I’m trying to remember who the SAC was in

Kansas City, at the time. I think his name was Smith, I can’t remember the initials. Anyway, my dad and the SAC and I think two other Agents, and probably five or six local police officers or sheriff department folks got together and planned to hit this motel room or motor court …

Hollstein: Uhm-hmm. Franklin: … early in the morning so there wouldn’t be any spectators

around and the suspects would all be asleep. And my dad was designated to throw the tear gas grenade through the window. I always thought that was kind of strange because I knew they had those 37 millimeter gas guns, you know.

Hollstein: Uh-huh. Yeah. Franklin: A little safer way to deliver gas and I found out later on they

used that too. But, for some reason, he had to go up to the window and throw a gas grenade through a screen and the glass and all of that. And he borrowed one of these bullet-proof shields from a local police officer there …

Hollstein: Right.


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Franklin: … to kind of give him some cover because it was open driveway getting over to the building. And when he got up there and saw that the window was well-covered, he laid the shield down so he could throw this grenade through the window. And Clarence Sparger apparently was up and heard the noise of the shield hitting the ground so he went to the front door with his pistol just in time to hear the grenade come through the window and then see my dad running back over to where Smith was holding his Thompson.

Hollstein: Uh-huh. Franklin: So Sparger started shooting and one of the first rounds hit my

dad high in the hip and went right through his leg and missed the bone, the artery, the nerve. Made a big hole but it missed all the important stuff.

Hollstein: Hmm! Good luck that way, at least. Franklin: Yeah. Hollstein: Yeah. Franklin: And my dad, when he was hit, was reaching for his Thompson

and when the round hit his hip, it knocked him down and he thought Smith had thrown his Thompson to him and hit him with it (chuckling).

Hollstein: (Laughing) Franklin: And so, anyway, everybody opened up at that time and they put

about 350 rounds into this little cabin and wounded Sparger and everybody else managed to survive.

Hollstein: Hmmm! Franklin: And in the newspaper articles, one mentioned that an Agent was

slightly wounded. And the next day it mentioned he was shot in the shoulder; and then finally they got around to the real story that he was shot in the leg. And they made it sound like it was not a very serious wound, but it left a pretty good hole. And the tetanus shot that they gave him, I guess tetanus was kind of a new development, and he went into shock and the tetanus shot almost killed him.


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Hollstein: Oh my goodness! Franklin: But anyway, he finally did recover completely. Hollstein: How did you get these stories? Did your father just sort of …

sitting, just listening to him talk to friends and family? Franklin: Yeah, mostly just my dad telling me or listening to my dad tell

other people or listening to some of my, some of his Agent friends talk about it.

Hollstein: Uh-huh. Franklin: So I heard it from a lot of different … Hollstein: Yeah. Franklin: … directions. Hollstein: Yeah. This would be the kind of thing that a kid would really

pay attention to, too, wouldn’t he? Franklin: Oh yeah. Yeah. Hollstein: (Laughing) Franklin: Yeah, this was all, I thought this was all quite exciting. Hollstein: Well sure. (Laughing) It is! Franklin: Yeah. Hollstein: Except the part when you get shot. Franklin: Yeah. Hollstein: That’s more excitement than you need. Franklin: Right. There was another shooting in the same area at the same

time and I haven’t, I can’t remember whether my dad was there or just knew some of the people who were. Ahh, let’s see. I think this is also in, oh boy, this would’ve been before then. I can’t remember what year it was, but it involved the Clyde Barrow gang.


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Hollstein: Uh-huh. Franklin: And I can’t remember when they got killed down in Louisiana. Hollstein: Uh-huh. Franklin: But anyway, while my dad was in the Kansas City Office, just

outside of Kansas City there’s another little suburb called, I think it was Platte City.

Hollstein: Uhm-hmm. Franklin: Anyway, that’s where Buck Barrow got shot and wounded and

later died. Hollstein: Uh-huh. Franklin: I think he was shot and wounded in Platte City and then they

went over to Dexter, Iowa, and that’s where he was finally killed. Hollstein: Uh-huh. Franklin: Bonnie and Clyde, of course, both escaped both of those

shootings. Hollstein: Uhm-hmm. Franklin: But anyway, in the Platte City affair, my dad had a double-barrel

shotgun that had belonged to the Barrow gang … Hollstein: Hmmm! Franklin: … as a result of that shooting in Platte City. And that’s what

happened when he was at Kansas City so I always kind of thought he was there but I’m not really sure.

Hollstein: Uh-huh. Franklin: I don’t know whether any Bureau people were involved. It

might have been just the locals. Hollstein: Yeah. The only thing I know about it is watching the movie. I

don’t remember.


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Franklin: Yeah. That’s not a very good historical source. (Laughing) Hollstein: (Laughing) No. That is interesting, though. We watched a film

called Mississippi Burning. Franklin: Oh yeah. Hollstein: And I’ve interviewed most of the Agents who were prominent in

the Mississippi, MIBURN, case there. And it’s not at all like, their story is not at all like the movie.

Franklin: Yeah. Well, strangely enough, I was sent to Meridian,

Mississippi, as a flight instructor in the spring of ’64 and got there just about the time those three Civil Rights workers were killed by the Klan and buried in the dam.

Hollstein: The dam. Franklin: … up by Philadelphia. Hollstein: Right. Franklin: And one of my first jobs when I got there was to go out and help

with the body search. Hollstein: Oh really! Franklin: Yeah. And when they finally arrested Lawrence Rainey, the

sheriff there, and his deputy, Cecil Price, they couldn’t lock them up in any of the local jails because they’d just turn them loose.

Hollstein: Uhm-hmm. Franklin: So we locked him up in the BOQ at Meridian Naval Air Station. Hollstein: Ohh! Franklin: So we got to take turns guarding them too. Hollstein: Well, isn’t that interesting? Franklin: Yeah. Hollstein: That’s a very, very interesting little side light there.


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Franklin: It was. I kind of feel like I got to see one of the biggest changes in the South since Reconstruction, probably.

Hollstein: Absolutely. Absolutely. And well, it’s still happening. Franklin: Oh yeah. Hollstein: In many ways. In fact, they just went back and convicted a

couple of people for civil rights murders. Franklin: Uhm-hmm. Hollstein: And the people I’ve been talking to, who were stationed down

there, in Mississippi, are still alive and testified against them. So, justice was late but it has come through and …

Franklin: Yeah. Hollstein: … at least in those cases. Franklin: Been some major changes. Hollstein: Oh yeah. Well, what happened to the shotgun your father had? Franklin: Well, that’s a bad story. (Chuckling) Hollstein: Uhh-oh! Franklin: My dad … I’ve got the original registration for it. I think the,

let’s see, the law requiring registration of machine guns, and sawed-off shotguns, silencers, all that kind of stuff, came about, I think, in ’35.

Hollstein: Uh-huh. Franklin: And I have his registration form. And it also has a letter on there

as to how he acquired the weapon. And shortly after that, the Bureau started building a museum in Washington.

Hollstein: Right. Franklin: So he loaned it to the Bureau in Washington. Hollstein: Oh!


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Franklin: And then he died. My dad died in ’78 and I used to go back to Washington quite a bit. And I’d stop by the FBI Museum and I never saw that shotgun on display. So finally one day, I was talking to the SAC here in Albuquerque and I said, “You know, I wonder what ever happened to that shotgun?” And he said, “Well, if they’re not going to put it on display like your dad intended, you ought to get it back.”

Hollstein: Uh-huh. Franklin: So I applied to get it back. So they started looking for it and they

couldn’t find it. Hollstein: Awhh, too bad. Franklin: And so finally, they said, “Well, we can’t find it. You ought to

submit a claim to the government.” So I put in a claim to the government and got paid for it, not anywhere near what it was worth. I’d rather had the shotgun.

Hollstein: Oh sure. Franklin: But, anyway, I kinda think maybe it went down to Quantico and

got used up as a training aid or something. Hollstein: That’s possible. Yeah. Franklin: If somebody put it in a private collection, anytime it changed

hands, it would have to be registered to be legal, and if anybody tried to reregister it, it’s still registered to my dad.

Hollstein: Right. Franklin: So I don’t think it ended up in anybody’s collection. Hollstein: No, probably not. Franklin: It would have been reregistered probably twice by now. Hollstein: They had a, you know, had a big, big collection of firearms. And

it is possible it just got mixed up with some other things. Franklin: Yeah.


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Hollstein: Awhh, that’s too bad. Franklin: Yeah. Hollstein: So he had some glancing connection, then, with Bonnie and

Clyde even. Franklin: Apparently so. He may have been involved in that shootout with

‘em, but I can’t, I can’t confirm that. Hollstein: He hadn’t actually said it that way at all? Franklin: No. Hollstein: Yeah. Yeah. Any other adventures there in Kansas City? Franklin: Well, oh boy, I’m sure, you know, his day-to-day activities there

would seem kind of exciting for most of us today … Hollstein: (Laughing) Franklin: … but I think a lot of it became kind of routine. Hollstein: I guess so, yeah. Well, with Bonnie and Clyde and Pretty Boy

Floyd, and a few others there … Franklin: Yeah. Hollstein: … the O’Malley Gang, that’s probably enough for an entire

career and he’s only been in for four years or five years. Franklin: My mother’s scrapbook is just full of newspaper articles, you

know, about various petty criminals or various guys that were apprehended.

Hollstein: Uhm-hmm. Franklin: And a lot of cases that, you know, you never heard of. Hollstein: Then he moved on, then, to El Paso. Franklin: Okay. Yeah, El Paso. I guess probably about ’37 until either

late ’44 or early ’45. He came up to Albuquerque, the war was still going on.


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Hollstein: Ah-huh. Franklin: And then, I think, during that time in El Paso, he kind of

developed a specialty in the Bureau doing police schools. Hollstein: Uh-huh. Franklin: ‘Cause I’ve got a lot of pictures and newspaper articles of him

conducting police schools from LA to Phoenix, to Colorado, all over Texas, Oklahoma, New Mexico, and that was sort of his specialty. He was a pretty good public speaker. He had a lot of credibility with police departments and sheriff’s departments because of his experience, he was kind of one of them.

Hollstein: Uhm-hmm. Franklin: You know, he wasn’t some Philadelphia lawyer that had never

walked a beat. (Chuckling) Hollstein: Right. Right. Franklin: So he was, you know, a noted firearms expert. So, that’s what he

did most of his El Paso career. Hollstein: You said he was a firearms expert. Had he gotten special

training? Or he was expert because he’d survived … Franklin: Well, he and Delf Bryce used to put on shooting demonstrations. Hollstein: Uh-huh. Franklin: And, of course, he was kind of self-taught originally. Hollstein: Uh-huh. Franklin: But he had a lot of pictures of him in in-service training back at

Quantico where he was conducting classes in firearms and physical training and stuff.

Hollstein: Great! Now you said he was out doing demos with Delf Bryce.

This is the famous Jelly Bryce? Franklin: Uhm-hmm.


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Hollstein: And had you ever met ... Franklin: Oh, I … Hollstein: Bryce? Franklin: I knew him well. Hollstein: Uh-huh. Tell me a little bit about him and what you know about

him. Franklin: Well, my first recollections of him are when we lived in El Paso

and I was just a young boy. And that’s where I first saw him doing public demonstrations. And then when we moved up to Albuquerque, Bryce became the SAC up there for a number of years before he moved back to Oklahoma City.

Hollstein: Uh-huh. Franklin: And, we used to go huntin’ together and shootin’ together. I’ve

got pictures of Bryce and myself, and my dad, some other folks, with a bear that he shot off my back (chuckling).

Hollstein: (Laughing) how did this come about? Franklin: Well, this was probably about ’54, ’55. I was a young high

school kid and we went huntin’ out on the Navajo Reservation with Kels Presley. Kels was the Sheriff of McKinley County, New Mexico, over around Gallup.

Hollstein: Uh-huh. Franklin: And I had walked right past a bear I hadn’t seen and I took a shot

at another one. The bear I’d just walked right past turned around and came right after me and Bryce was walking about twenty feet behind me. And he shot this bear, broke her back right, right behind me.

Hollstein: Oh for goodness sake. Well, Bryce was noted for his quick draw

and accuracy. Franklin: Yeah.


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Hollstein: And he did a lot of trick shooting, too. Did you ever see him do the trick shooting?

Franklin: Oh yeah. I saw him shoot Mexican pesos in the air and shoot

clay pigeons with the pistol upside down; using a diamond ring for a mirror to shoot back over his shoulder, all those tricks.

Hollstein: (Laughing) That must have been quite a show for a young kid,

too. And then … Franklin: Oh yeah. Yeah. Hollstein: … to actually go hunting with him. That must have been

something. Franklin: We used to go out and practice and … we didn’t practice with

silver pesos, we’d use washers. Hollstein: Uh-huh. Franklin: And I’d throw washers in the air and he’d shoot holes in them

with a .220 Swift. Hollstein: So you were actually there to see this stuff. Franklin: Oh yeah. Hollstein: There’s a lot of show biz to it but the descriptions of his shooting

ability were pretty accurate then? Franklin: Uhm … yeah. He was amazing. He was a reflex shot. You

know, you could throw an apple in the air and he could shoot it with a pistol but just shooting at regular paper targets, he was good, but he wasn’t, you know, I saw a lot of people that could shoot as well as he could just shooting paper targets.

Hollstein: Uhm-hmm. Franklin: As a matter of fact, I out shot him a couple of times. Although,

he maybe he let me just to make me feel good.


26

Hollstein: (Laughing) Well, that could be. Yeah. But, I’ve, you know, read stories where he’d be able to shoot through a washer, for example. Put a piece of, like a stamp, across the hole in the washer.

Franklin: Yeah. Hollstein: Had you seen him do that? Franklin: Ah yeah, only we used masking tape. Hollstein: Oh, masking tape, yeah. Franklin: It’s cheaper than using stamps. Hollstein: Oh yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, whatever it was, it covered it up.

Yeah. So he was able to actually do that, then? Franklin: He used to actually do that. You know, every now and then he’d

miss, but usually he could do it. Hollstein: Did he practice a lot? Franklin: Ahh, you know that was the amazing thing. He’d go out and

practice maybe for a half hour, an hour, when he had a shoot coming up, but I don’t recall him practicing on a regular basis. It was, it was just kind of a natural phenomenon.

Hollstein: Uhm-hmm. Uhm-hmm. Well, that was interesting. Now, you

mentioned some other names, too, of firearms guys, that were particularly good.

Franklin: Well, Walter Walsh, I remember Walter Walsh. As a matter of

fact, I was so impressed by him that’s probably why I joined the Marine Corps.

Hollstein: You know, he’s still alive. Franklin: That’s what I understand. Hollstein: We just interviewed him. Franklin: … birthday coming up this next month.


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Hollstein: Right. We just interviewed him and he’s a hundred years old. Franklin: Well, I’ll be darned. Hollstein: And he’s holding together. He needed a little help from his …

family, you know, with remembering of some of the events … but. Yeah, Walter Walsh is still around.

Franklin: Yeah. Well, he and my dad were in the Bureau back in the ‘30s

and when the war came along, of course, Walter had been in the Marine Reserve …

Hollstein: Uh-huh. Franklin: I think he joined the Marine Reserve in 1929. And so when the

war came along, he kind of had his choice. He could go on active duty in the Marine Corps or he could’ve stayed in the Bureau and he decided to go on active duty with the Marine Corps. He tried to get my dad to go with him but my dad figured he knew more about law enforcement than the military, so.

Hollstein: Uhm-hmm. Uhm-hmm. Franklin: And then when the war was over, I understand Walsh came back

with the Bureau for awhile. I guess the, maybe the Director never forgave him for going to the Marine Corps during the war.

Hollstein: (Laughing) Franklin: So he went back on active duty with the Marine Corps … Hollstein: Yeah. Franklin: … and was the Director of Firearms Training for the Marine

Corps. I think, he got our first sniper school started. And he was around for a long time.

Hollstein: Yeah. Yeah. And he’s, as they say, he’s still steaming along.

He makes it to lunches every once in a while there, in Washington, and, in fact, he just met with the Director for a little while.


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Franklin: Oh yeah. Well, back in the ‘50s, when I was in high school, he came through Albuquerque and he came over the house. I remember he was in Marine Corps green uniform. We never saw many Marines around Albuquerque. it’s kind of an Air Force town.

Hollstein: Uhm-hmm. Franklin: And I was so impressed that about three years later I joined the

Marine Corps. And I think that was one reason. Hollstein: Well, that’s an interesting little side light then. And I’m glad I

was able to pass on a little information concerning him now. I don’t think the materials been processed concerning him, yet.

But if you’d like to see it? Franklin: Oh, I’d love to. Yeah. Hollstein: I’ll send you a copy of the transcript. I’ll make a note here.

Good. Let’s see, so your father, then, did mainly police training work in El Paso.

Franklin: Mostly what he did during his El Paso career, late ‘30s and up

until the war got started. When the war got started, the Bureau sent him to a school back east. I can’t remember which Army base it was. One of those in the DC area. I can’t remember. But anyway, they sent him through a munitions school where he learned all about explosives and stuff.

Hollstein: Uh-huh. Franklin: And then he spent most of the war years going around to defense

plants, showing them how to improve their security, you know, anti-espionage, anti-sabotage activities.

Hollstein: Uh-huh. Franklin: And I think he got a million mile award from TWA during the

war. Hollstein: (Laughing) Franklin: ‘Cause he was traveling all over doing that sort of a thing.


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Hollstein: That’s a dubious honor (laughing). Franklin: Yeah. Yeah. Hollstein: All that time in a plane and especially in those days, too. Franklin: Well, I can remember a lot of time when he wasn’t around. Hollstein: Yeah. A million miles is a lot of miles today, for that matter. Franklin: Yeah. Hollstein: Yeah. Then over to Albuquerque after the, or towards the end of

the war? And then? Franklin: Yeah. During, towards the end of his time in El Paso, during the

‘40s, of course, the nuclear activity, you know, the Manhattan Project …

Hollstein: Right. Franklin: … was getting started in New Mexico, so the Bureau was more

and more getting involved with that. And, you know, before the war all they had was a Resident Agent. Matter of fact, before they had a Resident Agent, all of New Mexico was covered by the El Paso Office. And then they finally established a Resident Agency in Albuquerque and towards the end of the war, why, it became a pretty good-sized office.

Hollstein: Uhm-hmm. Franklin: And my dad came up here and spent a lot of time chasing

Communists. Hollstein: Uhm-hmm. Okay. Franklin: In fact, I remember a Thanksgiving Day dinner. We were almost

at that point where the head of the household carves the turkey …

Hollstein: Right.


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Franklin: … and he got a phone call and about fifteen minutes later a Bureau car picked him up. We didn’t see him for about three weeks.

Hollstein: (Laughing) Oh my goodness! Franklin: He was off on a surveillance of some of Gus Hall’s guys. Hollstein: Uh-huh. Franklin: Communists. He did that all over the southwest and even into

Mexico. He spent a couple of months in Mexico. Hollstein: Did he take administrative advancement? Was he a supervisor or

SAC or ASAC? Franklin: No. Like he says, he was an enlisted man in the ranks his whole

career. (Laughing) Hollstein: Uh-huh. (Laughing). Okay. Well, that was a really colorful

career. Are there other things that you recall of his times? Franklin: Well, I remember one time some of his friends from Texas were

trying to get him to join the Texas Rangers, which is kind of prestigious.

Hollstein: Uh-huh. Franklin: You know, that was kind of pretty much by invitation only. Hollstein: Uhm-hmm. Franklin: But he decided to stay with the Bureau. And he didn’t get into

administrative law enforcement until after he retired and then he became, I think, he was the first Director of Public Safety for the City of Albuquerque, where he had the Fire Department, Police Department, and Traffic Engineering Department.

Hollstein: Uh-huh. Franklin: And then he was State Liquor Director for awhile, under Ed

Meachem, who was another ex-FBI Agent. (End of side A)


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Hollstein: Brian Hollstein talking to George E. Franklin, April 29, 2008. Good. So we’ve pretty much gone through your father’s career.

What kind of a person was he as a father and son? Franklin: Well, I’ll tell ya what. The best thing I ever did was my choice

of parents. Hollstein: (Laughing) Franklin: I couldn’t ask for better if I had a chance. My mother was born

in the Territory of New Mexico before it was a state. My grandparents were pioneers here back in the 1880s. You know, my dad came from a Texas ranch to a Chicago newsboy …

Hollstein: Uh-huh. Franklin: … to a lawman. They just both were very solid citizens. They

were church-going folks. They just, they were really salt of the earth.

Hollstein: Uh-huh. Well, they certainly had lots of good stories to tell ya

and interesting people to meet, too, as a young boy and a man. That was quite something.

I guess we could stop here. Or did you have more stories? Franklin: Well, no. I’ll, you know, I’ll think of some but I think we’ve …

we got it pretty well covered. Before I forget it, I do have a couple of names of other sons and daughters of Agents that you might have some interest in.

Hollstein: Yeah. Sure. Franklin: Do you want me to give you that info? Hollstein: Yeah. Sure. Franklin: Okay. Well, first of all an Agent by the name of Ray Suran.

You may have seen his name. He was at the back door of the Biograph when Dillinger was shot.

Hollstein: Uh-huh.


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Franklin: He was also at the Little Bohemian thing up in Wisconsin. Hollstein: Uh-huh. Franklin: And I believe he was in the shootout with Ma Barker in Florida. Hollstein: Oh! Whadda ya know! Franklin: And his oldest daughter is still alive and she’s here in town, in

Albuquerque. Hollstein: Oh really! Wonderful. Franklin: And she wrote a history of her dad but it was only for family

publication. Hollstein: Uh-huh. Franklin: But she would probably be a pretty good source on information

about Ray Suran. Hollstein: I would love to have that! Franklin: Okay. Well, her name, if you’re ready to copy … Hollstein: I’m ready. Franklin: Her name is Jean. Hollstein: Uhm-hmm. Franklin: Willcut. Hollstein: Okay. Franklin: I’ve got her address if you’d like. Hollstein: Good. Franklin: And I hadn’t seen her since I was a junior groomsmen in her

wedding about 1950 (laughing). Hollstein: (Laughing)


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Franklin: And I just had dinner with her the other night. She’s having a little trouble getting around, but she’s still pretty sharp.

Hollstein: Oh wonderful! Great! I’d love to talk to her. Franklin: And another contact you might want, as I mentioned … Jim

Durrett’s name. I guess he was another one of those in the same category as my dad as far as how he got in the Bureau. He was Chief of Police over in Tucumcari, New Mexico. And then went into the Bureau and did a career. And his son is still around, up in Farmington, New Mexico. I don’t have his address but last I talked to Jim, he was the County Attorney, the San Juan County Attorney in Farmington, New Mexico.

Hollstein: Okay. Franklin: So you should be able to get in touch with him. His dad, Big Jim

Durrett, just died about two years ago. His mother is still alive out there.

Hollstein: Oh, this is great! Franklin: They knew a lot of the same folks my dad did. Hollstein: Okay, so that would be Jim, Jr. then? Yeah, Jim Durrett, Jr.

Well, that’s great! You know, it’s a shame the only contact that we have with that era now is Walter Walsh …

Franklin: Yeah. Hollstein: … age a hundred. And it was such a colorful era and things

were, you know, things were really happening then that were very interesting. And so it’s nice to be able to find people like yourself and, hopefully, Jean and Jim, Jr., there that have good memories and be able to pass it on.

Let me turn off the machine now for …

FBI Franklin interview - National Law Enforcement … · Franklin: Ah, yes. My father’s name was...

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Transcript of FBI Franklin interview - National Law Enforcement … · Franklin: Ah, yes. My father’s name was...