Entrevistas Com Shunryu Suzuki Rōshi

8/11/2019 Entrevistas Com Shunryu Suzuki Rshi

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priest anymore. One day when I visited um residence or residence or residence or office of Turkish,Ambassador from Turk?

PS: Yeah, Turkish, yes.

SR: Ambassador. And there were one who helped him and seeing what he want to be there, maybesomeday I shall be like you. I scared of myself you know, what I will become an ambassador, notbecome a priest [sounds right I guess] if I stay there two or three years. So I left her and I came back todormitory. That is relationship between I and Mrs. Ransom.

And one more thing, maybe. One more thing. She became she was not a Buddhist when I met her.And she had a beautiful Buddha.

[Noise and laughter Suzuki takes some food from Peter.]

SR: You are my jisha .

PS: Probably the only jisha who serves you chicken. You want some more? [Both laughing.]

[Can't understand joking around.]

SR: She was not Buddhist. But she had a beautiful Buddha about one feet sitting and she put in on tokonoma but she put also her shoes with Buddha, side by side. I am not so concerned aboutthose things, especially when she is not Buddhist, but that was my problem, so I decided to change herway. So I offered everyday a cup of tea to Buddha. And she was very much amused about the offeringof tea. So she had many guests so she started to tease me or not accuse me but she tease me byputting a toothpick into Buddha's hand or matches.

PS: I didn't know that part before [laughing], putting matches huh?SR: Yeah. I don't know who did it. Maybe her guests because she told them, he is very naughty boy toput tea before the Buddha. In this way one month one more month passed and I didn't stop and shewas continuously teasing me but I ignore her what ever they do. I didn't think to take off toothpick ormatches. But I thought, there will be some chance for me to explain what is Buddha, what isBuddhism, so I studied hard to explain in English how to do it and learn some vocabulary. And at lastshe asked me about why we worship Buddha, Buddhahood like this explain about it. And she wasamazed, you know, and since then she didn't tease me anymore and she started to try to understandwhat was Buddhism actually what was Buddhism and what is the and she turned to be Buddhist, andshe became a Buddhist, Buddhism save her. And she asked me to buy some incense for her, incenseand some other things too small bell, as I told this kind of things is necessary.

And that gives me some confidence in the possibility of understanding Buddhism for the Caucasianspeople.

[At this point Peter takes the mike off the machine and we can hear better!]

They understand quite easily, I thought, what is Buddhism, and they may like Buddhism so I wantedto come to go abroad or at least Hokkaido to where I have chance to speak to Caucasian or at leastforeigners who doesn't know what is Buddhism. But my master was, my master scolded me when Iasked him to go to America or Hokkaido. I said, "America." He said, "No." And I said "Hokkaido." "No."And at last he was, he became very angry and, "You should stay here." Just one word.


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So I gave up my notion of going abroad. And I gave up completely my idea of going, coming toAmerica. Several times I had a chance to come to America but I refused to come. In 1954 [this is amistake he corrects to 1958 later] as I finished what my teacher told me to do I decided to come toAmerica. So there is some truth that I was with her was actually my turning point of life, I think, itwas my idea was of going abroad was always, must be here although I gave up, I thought I gave up,

but I didn't.

I don't want to say why I came to America because I was invited actually Japanese congregation. Butwhen I said "yes" our headquarters did not appoint me to this temple but as an assistant residentpriest of Soko-ji. That means that I am not responsible for Soko-ji if I just help and that was my duty.But as soon as I come here headquarters wanted me to take over Tobase's position. So I must befaithful to Japanese members. So I don't want to say this point so clearly. I have never expressed anyidea of - my real idea of coming to America, but actually I thought if I could go to San Francisco I can dosomething which I want to do not for distant country but for American people.

PS: You said in 1954 you decided, but you didn't come until 1959.

SR: No.

PS: You meant to say 1959.

SR: Oh, 1959. Excuse me. I mixed up. My age was at that time was 54.

PS: Okay. That's very helpful Roshi. That's only the first question. Let's see. When the students firstcame did they sit upstairs here or downstairs?

SR: Upstairs. At that time we have no sitting place to sit.

PS: You just had the pews.

SR: Yes.

PS: Was Bill McNeil and his wife your first students? The very first?

SR: The very. The very first ones.

PS: How did he come here, Bill.

SR: One day Lou appeared came (they clarify pronunciation) one morning and she said my husbandwants to go to Japan and she wanted to know about it. And I said to her, "If so, it may be a good ideafor him to come and sit." So McNeil, not Lou, started to sit with me McNeil. And one morning Loualso when McNeil wanted to go home Lou came up from the stairs and McNeil was rather amazed tosee her. And why did you come? And they were talking something. Lou did not tell him, you know,anything. I think she must have told him just to go to Soko-ji without telling him any reason. AndMcNeil didn't know that she came here and made some arrangement with me. So anyway they twostarted to sit with us. And then when I had many students, and Dr. Kato for a while he was here andhelped. And those who were studying Asian Academy joined. And so Jean, Della, and Warren, andsome other students joined not Zen Center at top of stairs.

PS: With the early students was there any feeling of sangha?

SR: Yes. Not sangha. They were sitting with me every morning, constantly, so more and more wecreated a feeling of sangha. And they offered me some money each month. I didn't feel to spend that


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money. You know if I have it I may spend it in various ways, so I thought it would be better to decide tosome treasurer or someone to find someone to take care of the money I received. And that is how ZenCenter started maybe actually. In 1962 we organized Zen Center.

PS: When you used to do takuhatsu , Roshi, the students asked you if they could do takuhatsu also and

you said no. Why did you say no?SR: Why? At that time, you know, it is maybe too . . . what we are doing it, I thought it is not so good ornot so formal practice but is it is too early to do this.

PS: Do you think you were more strict in the beginning? Or less strict? This is interesting for me, Rshi.For example you used to tell people not to move during zazen and at some point you must havestopped for some reason.

SR: Because, you know, at that time they moved a lot.

PS: They don't move any more?

SR: They don't move any more so I don't tell them.

PS: Why did you just give shinshanshiki just once?

SR: Once? That is it should be just once because it is installation ceremony too distant.

PS: Isn't that when students get lay rakusu ?

SR: No. Oh, nyushinshiki you mean. Shinsanshiki [Mountain Seat Ceremony], that's different. That is, Ithink we have to do it, but we are pretty busy so we don't. Oh, today I, excuse me. Today -

[Break.]

PS: How did the Wind Bell start?

SR:Wind Bell started just by printing one sheet of paper.

PS: Whose idea was the Wind Bell ?

[(At top of page 3 is a handwritten note as follows: Suzuki-roshi: Who helped start WB. Philip & JJ dothe first issue with you? Roshi: No. Not actually. Of course they may have helped.)]

[Begin Side 2]

SR: Not my idea or some other's idea, you know. We just started saying that it will be a good ideabecause Dick was, you know, Dick and some other students always writing my lecture (end of side one)and made - asked me many questions about my lecture. So naturally we thought it may be good idea.But if I start to - what I say in my lecture with very awkward English, you know, what I have in my mindis very different, so I have to write down something. So in the Wind Bell the reader couldn't get theoriginal talk, just my broken English corrected by some others, someone else, like Dick. That is how. Ithink you have Wind Bell Number 1.

PS: Yes.

SR: That kind of thing.


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PS: Do you have a picture of Yamada- rshi somewhere? Old picture.

SR: Maybe. I don't think so. Someone may have it. Do you want his picture alone in the picture or ...

PS: Some picture taken back then. Some man used to take Zen Center pictures, Roshi. Who was he?

SR: He's coming so I'll ask him.

PS: Okay. There was a certain development of the zend. You took out the pews and used tatamis . Youpainted the zend. How did this change all take place?

SR: Little by little. At first we take out all the pews. That was pretty difficult thing to do, becauseJapanese people doesn't sit; they need chair. That's opposite. But since Zen Center bought those chairsfor Japanese people - Red one was given to us by some Caucasian who came to Soko-ji before wecome to Soko-ji temple. Twenty of them was given to us. And we bought some more, maybe twenty,so we decided to take out the pews. Actually it destroyed the pews.

PS: How did the mats go down?

SR: Mats?

PS: Tatami.

SR: Oh. Tatami . I think they helped Japanese members helped I thought 100 to buy tatamis . At thattime some Japanese people were sitting. Not many. Two, three. One is still alive. Two of them passedaway. So they put the emphasis on Zen in Japanese congregation. At that time it was pretty good. Therelationship was pretty good.

PS: Phillip says that every Saturday you would carry the pews in and out.

SR: Oh yeah, I did.

PS: For Japanese sake.

SR: Uh-huh, I did. We carry out when we are sitting. Before we have chairs. Yeah. In and out. All thetime. Every weekly.

PS: How did the Japanese feel about that?

SR: Most of them didn't know. Those people who come here always understand Zen Center very well,

but some people many people who doesn't come to Soko-ji, even on Sunday service, criticize ZenCenter.

PS: Why did you have the nyushinshiki ceremony just once?

SR: Oh, nyushinshiki ceremony just once? Because I'm a little bit discouraged. At that time wehad nyushinshiki ceremony for maybe 13 people, I don't remember how many. I have record. But mostof them many of them - some of them you know said we don't want this any more and return it to me.So I was rather discouraged. For Japanese people it is good you know, but for American people it istoo something too formal.

PS: I can't put that in history (laughing). Not good history answer.

SR: Yeah.


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SR: Did you ordain Bob Hense and Bill McNeil?

SR: Bob?

PS: Hense.

SR: Oh, Robert. Yes.

PS: They were ordained in Japan or here?

SR: In Japan. They formally shaved his head without knowing what was it. [Both laugh.] My friend did itat that time. Not very good history. [Laugh.]

PS: During sesshin s sometimes you would leave for two hours and there would be no bells for twohours. Did you do that for practice or did you just forget? Students always wondered. Maybe youshouldn't tell (laugh). Sometimes Roshi an hour and a half would go by. Then all of a sudden you'd walkin, you'd walk to the kitchen and then you'd walk out again.

SR: Yeah. That is, you know, how my teacher did with me you know. Maybe sometime I forgot, but Ididn't feel so bad. [Both laugh.] I thought, watching clock, oh, it was too long, you know. And doesn'tmatter one more hour. I have that kind of feeling at that time not the first time.

PS: Let's see. Actually maybe that's enough.

SR: That may be very interesting topic to write.

PS: That's in the Wind Bell , but I have not said why. I guess I won't say why either. But studentsdescribe waiting and waiting and waiting. They remember that very much. Also, you used to have, firstperiod of sesshin was always double period.

SR: Yeah. [Long pause.] It is you know at that time I put emphasis on to forget the idea, to get rid ofthe idea of time place. Where they are, how long they should sit, that is not, you know, zazen. If yousit, the confidence should be (phone rings) to sit forever here.

PS: What is your father's name, Roshi?

SR: Sogaku.

PS: You graduated from college when you were 26.

SR: Uh-huh.

PS: Is that pretty old?

SR: Yes.

[Loud motor sound here.]

PS: Why did you start school so late?

SR: Because I was with my teacher, cooking, serving, and so on. I haven't finished middle school or highschool.

PS: Oh I see. When did you begin studying with your teacher, when you were 14 or something?


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SR: Thirteen.

PS: Did you quit high school when you were 13?

[Mike moved poor sound.]

SR: I only finished grammar school. And I was studying, of course, in the temple so I could enter thelast two years - at that time high school was five years - and I took the fourth grade and fifth grade onlyat that high school. And that is why.

PS: How old were you then? Twenty?

SR: Uhhhh [sighing], yeah twenty. Stayed twenty-one.

PS: When you were in high school still?

SR: Yes. My schooling is very late one.

PS: You didn't begin studying with Kishizawa-r shi until 1932?

SR: Um-hum.

PS: I see. Your teacher was your uncle also?

SR: My teacher was my father's disciple.

PS: Your father's disciple, that's right. That's not this fellow, though. Is it Kishizawa?

SR: Yes Kishizawa.

PS: Was your father's disciple?

SR: No he is my (long blank space) teacher's friend.(last two words not in tape I have.)

PS: You were ordained when you were 13 by your father's disciple. Is he also your uncle? He has thesame name, Suzuki.

SR: Yeah, maybe so. Uncle, but not real one.

PS: Is it just coincidence that you have the same name?

SR: No. He was adopted by my father.

PS: You had this shuso ceremony at Kenko-in. Where is that?

SR: At Shizuoka City.

PS: Was that a training monastery for Shizuoka?

SR: Yes, but actually there was not much students.

PS: Were there any students? Just you?


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SR: If I haven't this record I couldn't take over my, his former temple. And at that time I couldn'tactually take over his position and my father was doing it, my job there, and I was studying atKomazawa.

PS: How long did you keep Zoun-in?

SR: Five years.

PS: Until your master died?

SR: Um-hum. No, no. Maybe ten years. Five years I actually

PS: Lived there?

SR: Rinso-in and I was - since even after I became head, must head priest of Rinso-in, I was taking careof this temple. (thumping here and there)

PS: So you had two temples then?

SR: At that time, for five years. (Must mean 1934-39)

PS: What does this mean here, Roshi. It says you were the Koshi at Bansho Zenrin.

SR: Koshi means "someone to give lectures." Bansho this is so called Kasuisai temple where the headof the Soto school, Takashina- rshi, lived. Takashina -rshi.

PS: That is the man who later became abbot of Eihei-ji?

SR: Yes. Eihei-ji and Soji- ji and head of the St.

PS: I see. He was the head of-in Shizuoka-ken, huh?

SR: Yeah.

PS: First. Okay. Now - when did you take over your master's temple? 1932 huh?

SR: Zoun-in?

PS: Oh, here's that one. Right. Zoun-in. Then in 1936. Your master died in 1936.

SR: Yes. No, no. My master died in 1934. At that time I was too young. I was maybe about 31 orsomething like that.

PS: You were born in 1904.

SR: Yes.

PS: He died in 1934 or 1935?

Suzuki-rshi: I don't know by your counting.

PS: How old were you? You think you were 31.

SR: Yes.


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PS: And you were too young to take over his temple so what happened?

SR: So there was a long confusion. Someone supported me. "Even though he's young, it's all right."Someone said, "No," and in this way for two years no one succeeded my master. And long time, at lastI became [someone comes in restart].

PS: So after two years of confusion then you became the head of Rinso-in? Did that mean that youwere a Zen master? Did that make you a Zen master technically?

SR: No. I don't think so.

PS: When did you become a Zen master?

SR: At that time under my temple there were many famous teachers, rshis. Kishizawa-rshi when hecame to my temple he you know sometimes he would sit for a while he was sitting here and I didn'tknow he was there. There were many famous teachers. That is why I couldn't take over my master'sseat. Actually I didn't want to, to be. I didn't say so but in my heart, no. [All sorts of noise: moving

mike.]

[Side three.]

My boy is in the same position so I'm very sympathetic with him. So I rather wanted him to come toAmerica. Maybe that was too much after my temple. And if my boy leave my temple they would bevery furious.

PS: When did you become a Zen master?

SR: I became - after I have taken my master's position. For a long time I have to sometimes conduct

some big ceremony. And whenever we have shuso ceremony or training period in branch temples, Ihave to join them as they taking over my master's position. Then while I am doing this kind of thingthey officially acknowledged me as a Zen master. I received special robe.

PS: How old were you then?

SR: Maybe I was 40, 45 or so.

PS: 45

SR:

PS: So all these temples are sort of branch temples of - is Zouin-in a branch temple of Rinso-in?

SR: No, different - belong to Rinso-in - this is - in Shusuoka prefecture there are big temple who has3000 branch temples, which has 3000. And Zoun-in is a grandson, you know (illegible word written).This is Daito-in and here is Shoshin-ji, and Zoun-in like this - And Rinso-in and another temple branchtemple of this is Takawazon [?] And Rinso-in is branch temple of Takawazon. [In margin: Sekiun-in. Bill[Lane?] says is funding temple.]

PS: And Zoun-in is branch temple of what?

SR: Branch temple of Soshin-ji. Rinso-in is branch temple of Seikun-in. And both Seiku-in and Soshin-ji -

PS: Are sons huh?


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SR: Sons.

PS: I see. Okay. Now From 1936 until 1942 you just were at Rinso-in then.

SR: Yes.

PS: This says from 1942 to 1947 you're the official teacher of the number 10th monastery of the Sotosect.

SR: Umhum.

SR: What is it?

SR: That was near Shizuoka. This was newly established temple at that time, and because I was at thattime already a master, a Roshi -

PS: You were a roshi in 1942 then?

SR: Yes, already here was roshi. Oh yeah. Because I finished - my temple completely and I attended, Iacted as roshi so many times before, now headquarters acknowledged me, give me a title. ([Shikimeans roshi title.])

PS: I see. In 1942?

SR: On the occasion they -

PS: - appointed you this.

SR: Yes.

PS: So then you were 38 then.

SR: 38, maybe.

PS: You were born in 1904. You'd be 38.

SR: Joshike you know, it is not assistance, you know. It's a master, but not completely. What do youcall? Not vice or assistant.

PS: Maybe it's like in the army they have executive officer. They have captain of a ship and then

executive officer. Well, this is 1952. We're in 1942 now. So what did you do here? For five years youhad this number 10th monastery at Bansho Zenrin.

SR: Oh, Bansho Zenrin? What I meant was I had one more monastery.

PS: Here, yes. Takakusha.

SR: Takakusha.?

SR: Were you a Zen master here?

SR: Title of Zen master isn't necessary here or here.

PS: Here it is?


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SR: Here.

PS: I see. So that means that you were then 48.

SR: Yes. In that I was dokan at one more monastery. At that time I became Executive Rshi orsomething like that.

PS: I see. Here. In 1952.

SR: Because I have to establish this one and they need me to be here.

PS: Why did they need you?

SR: Why? I don't know exactly.

PS: They said they need you anyway. So what jobs were these? You were assigned to this monasterywhich was at Bancho Zenrin. In 1947 they assigned you to Takakusha? Huh?

SR: Umhum.

PS: Teacher of Zen practice. This is bigger job than -

SR: This is bigger job - and this is some job just belonging to my only temple.

PS: I see. But this five year - this job ends in 1947 at Bancho Zenrin and the job at Takakusa, the jobhere begins in 1952.

SR: Umhum.

PS: What happened between 1947 and 1952? What happened between this job and this job?

SR: (?) (page 13)

PS: I'm not certain. Is that 60 or 40?

SR: 1947 when this started.

PS: In 1952.

SR: In 1952. This is Bancho Zenrin. My friend was in here. At first my - Takashino Roshi was head of this

temple. And my friend took over his place and later Takashino Roshi wanted to come back to thismonastery again. So his assistant, assistant of Kansho- rshi, gave some pre ssure to my friend. And myfriend left Bancho Zenrin so I was not, I did, I was rather angry with Takashino- rshi too.

PS: So you left also?

SR: I left also, but even though I left Takashino- rshi was not so busy. So once in a while I have to helphim. Officially I left already here.

PS: It says here that in June 1947 you became this teacher of Zen practice. That's not the title for rshi,huh?

SR: No.


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PS: Why did you wait until 1947? Why didn't you begin in 1936?

SR: At that time they had no rules for practice of laymen. This is more for laymen, Zen practice. Andheadquarters provided some rules for them to establish some Zen practice. There was Zen practice forlaymen even before we have this kind of practice. Right before Zen Center.

PS: Right. Okay, so this was a new idea or something?

SR: Yes. New idea at that time, and still continue.

PS: In 1952 then you became the kansho of this place? What's that, Takazoan?

SR: Yes. Senmon sodo.

PS: Were you kansho there?

SR: No. I was docho .

PS: Were you ever kansho before?

SR: No, kansho is

PS: Rinzai term?

SR: Just one, you know. In Soto we have only one kansho . And then what do you mean by kansho ?

PS: What do you mean by kansho ?

SR:Kansho is head of the whole

SR: Head of the whole of St?

SR: Umhum.

PS: I see. So it wasn't until they made you docho , Rshi, that you became rshi?

SR: Yeah. One is missing here. I was. When Niwa- rshi established, I don't know when, actually. Ifthose are all the records Chino Sensei has, then one is missing.

PS: When is that? 1947 or when? About when? After the war?

SR: Before the war. Before this one too - of course.

PS: Before the war?

SR: Maybe here.

PS: Well the war begins in -

SR: 1942. So, before this.

PS: I'm still a little confused, but apparently some time in the early forties, before the war, you

officially became the Roshi.


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SR: Officially yeah.

PS: Became the roshi of what master's temple? What was the master's name? The other one?

SR: Niwa-rshi.

PS: Niwa-rshi, who wanted to have a monastery at his temple. And his disciple actually acted as rshi,as docho .

SR: Yes.

PS: But you were docho by name.

SR: By name. Once in a while when they had big ceremony I went there.

PS: Why couldn't Niwa- rshi be a docho?

SR: At that time? I have not much relationship between Niwa- rshi and I. Niwa -rshi himself was theowner of, maybe the owner of the - we call him the jushoku . He's the head of the whole temple,includes

PS: How old were you when you were married, Rshi?

SR: 31, or 32. 32 maybe.

PS: This is before your master died, though?

SR: After. Two years after.

PS: He died when you were 30. And then you became head of Rinso-in when you were 32.

SR: 32 and maybe 33 then.

PS: Because you were already head of Rinso-in when you were married?

SR: No, I wasn't married when I entered Rinso-in. And when I got married there was many discussionwhether I should get married or not.

PS: By who?

SR: By members. I was listening to them and some extremes then. If I married with someone, his wifecan stay at my home and I can go to his home whenever I want. That was too extreme.

PS: I don't understand roshi what do you mean?

SR: Someone said, if I get married, my wife could stay at "my home" and if the people doesn't liketemple life at my temple "she can stay my home." That was what someone said. So, at last, theydecided to allow my wife to enter my temple.

PS: I see. Did your master's wife live there?

SR: Oh yeah, for awhile, not for a long time. When he was quite old she stayed. We established some

custom you know, my master started something like that. But after he died, and especially because Iam so young, they criticized me to have a wife in temple.


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PS: So your master did not choose your wife for you?

SR: No. My master's friend did and I have - family (?) . . . (page 16) for (more than 15 years. -[this noton my tape])

PS: How do you mean with her?

SR: As my wife. At that time when I was 33, maybe 34, I got married with ex-wife.

PS: And you were married to her for 15 years before she died?

SR: Yeah. And I haven't wife for 7, 8 years, just before I come to America. One of the conditions to goto America, you know, to be invited by Japanese members, was someone who has wife. And she washead of the kindergarten.

PS: Which you had started?

SR: Umhum. So I decided to get married with her and came to America just almost at the same time.

PS: What did she think of that? Isn't that a strange way to get married roshi? That's strange forAmericans, maybe not for Japanese.

SR: Strange, yes. For usual person it is very strange, but for priest our marriage is very strangesometime, which I don't like so much.

PS: How do you mean that?

SR: I want to do exactly what I want to do. (laughing)

PS: Well how do you - This is not for history, but before you asked Okusan, this Okusan, did you tell herthat you had to have a wife in America?

SR: Yeah.

PS: And would she like to marry you for that reason?

SR: No, not that reason - you know. After my wife died, I thought I may be married with that girl, but Ididn't determine to do that. But soon after my wife died there was some rumor you know. He will getmarried with her, and he likes her so much. So I thought, that is true, so I have to do that. As they say -- if that is true, so I decided to get married with her.

PS: With this one.

SR: Yeah, with this one. But even though I decided so, I was too busy and she was too busy to thinkabout it, you know. She was rather stubborn and was always meeting in his office, and I thought, thatis alright, maybe I should wait. While I was waiting I decided to go to America and one of theconditions is, should be a married priest. So I you know decided to marry with her.

PS: Is Otohiro your son or Okusan's son?

SR: My boynot my wife's.

PS: And Okusan's husband died in the Second World War?


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SR: Yes, yes.

PS: It says here, you said that a friend of your master picked your first wife. What does that mean? Didyou have some choice or?

SR: No. I had no one in my mind and I wasn't so sure about my married side, my ability to handle bothpriest's side and a family side. It is very complicated, you know. I know pretty well that. So (end of sidethree)

[this part not on my tape (I was not firm, but I was reluctant to take my wife. So I have no girl in mymind as wife, but)]

(side four)

my master's friend thought it necessary for him to get one.

PS: So you said yes or?

SR: Yeah. I said before I see my ex-wife, I said yes. At that time he had somebody in his mind.

PS: Does that usually work out pretty well, Roshi, when you don't see the woman before you marry?

SR: Yeah, pretty well. It's amazing maybe for you. Although we do or don't like her, it is, I think it ispretty superficial feeling, not so different, and it changes a lot.

PS: It seems to be very important to repair or build a temple for the Japanese. Is that so?

SR: Yeah. To me it was very important because our building was very old, and unless the priest hasgood understanding of architecture he may make a mistake. So to me it was pretty important.

PS: I see. So you did two things. You built many new buildings at Zoun-in and you rebuilt the mainstructure of Rinso-in.

SR: Yeah. Main structure or - many buildings I repaired many buildings. As it was in ancient times. Thatwas difficult part. It cost more money and it doesn't look so good. (laughter) So no one will agree withme, with my idea.

PS: Crazy, huh?

SR: Crazy. That is why I felt I have to do it you know.

PS: How long did it take you to rebuild Rinso-in?

SR: Many years.

PS: The whole time that you were there?

SR: Yes. I was constantly studying and making effort.

PS: So you studied the old architecture?

SR: Not very much, but the architecture at that time, at the time when Rinso-in was built.

PS: How old is Rinso-in?


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SR: Building is - oldest one, maybe 300.

PS: Looks like you were living at uh - was there another priest at Zoun-in all the time?

SR: Yes. My older brother was helping me in Zoun-in. Now he is succeeding my position there.

PS: Is he a Roshi, your brother?

SR: No. His boy is my son, my disciple, because he studied with me.

PS: Has he has . . . Is he an osho?

SR: Yes.

PS: So your first dharma heir in Japan is your own son or him? Do you have a first dharma heir?

SR: First dharma heir is my boy and - Shoko.

PS: Who's Shoko? Shoko is the son of the man who became the priest at Zoun-in?

SR: Yes.

PS: It seems, Roshi - also here's something else too we should discuss. (end of side four)

Side 2-A.

(side five)

(listening to chanting tape)

PS: We'll start with the farmers.

SR: There were many farmers who went to Manchuria to start some farming village or something likethat. And the world situation was very bad. For three months - when I left Japan it was just threemonths before the war ended.

SR: So it was very bad then.

SR: So no one accepted our headquarters plan or appointment. So I thought maybe I may go and I leftJapan May 14 for Manchuria. And it took a pretty long time because our ship couldn't leave Hakata

port because of the B-29 bombers. And I stayed there one week waiting for the ship.PS: And there was always bombing going on?

SR: Yeah. But anyway I could reach to Korea. Through Korea and I went to Manchuria visiting Japanesefarmers in various places. And when I reached to (in Japanese we say Harbin, I don't know). The bigcity, capital city in Manchuria. They announced there were no ships bound for Japan, but I hardly couldcome back to Japan. That is not for service but just as a priest I went to Manchuria.

PS: So how did you get back to Japan?

SR: Huh? Oh, I thought there must be some transportation or some you know way to get back to

Japan. Even though we have no ship someone must be going to Japan, and if I am waiting at Pusan Ithought I am quite sure I would have a chance to go back to Japan. And they didn't sell me ticket, but I


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said even though maybe so, but I will pay anyway for the ticket. Whether it is you know available ornot doesn't matter, so give me a ticket. And I came back by navy, not battleship, cruiser. They werecollecting some wounded soldiers and the ship arrived at not that port I expected, but at some smallport near that big port. And in the train, before I arrive at Sanroshi [?] which is small station, butthat's when we arrive at that small station, the conductor announced that if someone who is going to

Japan from Sanroshi should get off. So I got off at that station.

PS: This is in Manchuria?

SR: Korea. And as soon as I arrive at Sanroshin, pretty big port, the port when Chinese wanted toattack Japan, Chinese army started that port. Because of that it is pretty famous port. And as soon as Iarrive at that port, big ship came, guarded by two cruisers, I could - by that by that - not cruiser, cruiserwas . . .

PS: Big ship. Destroyer is small ship maybe.

SR: Yeah. (uncertain). The ship we took was not so big, but it was protected by that big cruiser. Sowithout making any zigzag voyage, we come back straight Kyushu Island and arrive at some unknownsmall port. And after I took express train. We were exposed several times by attack from air. And - itwas July 15, and August 15 everything was over.

PS: So you were in Manchuria and you took a boat to Korea?

SR: Yes.

SR: A cruiser to Korea?

SR: No. Just a steamboat.

PS: They told you in Manchuria there were no boats leaving from Korea.

SR: When I come back already those boats stopped.

PS: Looking at your history, it looks pretty ordinary. Is it ordinary sort of Zen teacher's history?

SR: Maybe so. Not so ordinary. I say priests in my age it will be. If I tell it to you in detail it is very kindof noble.

PS: Oh, ho. That's what we never hear.

SR: But what I did actually is just not so different. But nowadays those who are brought up in templefamily succeed his father's position, that's all, you know. But my age was thirteen I left my father'stemple.

PS: Why did you leave your father's temple?

SR: My father took care of me too well, so I felt here I felt something family feeling always. (tappingchest?)

PS: Where is here?

SR: Emotional feeling. Too much emotion. Too much love. And my teacher at grammar school told methis kind of thing. He always said to me, to us, "You should be - (interrupted by visitors talking inJapanese)


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SR: - various problems -

PS: You caused various problems?

SR: Yes. For them and for me, too.

PS: How so?

SR: How? Before I take my master's temple, I have not much, I didn't cause any trouble. I was justtrying to study, but after I took over my master's temple my life started by some confusion or - if Ididn't take over his temple, you know, I have - I should be in Zoun-in. And I must have very calm, and Icould study more, but because I felt some - resistance you know the priest near Rinso-in, you know, Idetermined to take over his place. And two years confusion and fight.

PS: Would you restate that last section? Because of a priest near Rinso-in -

SR: The priest near Rinso-in wanted - they have someone in their mind to be a head priest of Rinso-in,

and that man, under the name of someone, he wanted to act what they want to act, which is not sogood for the people or for the Soto school.

PS: Some sort of greed Roshi?

SR: Greed and fame and uh some - They themselves divided in many, you know, ways, and each one ofthem has their own ambition, but - if they - one of them or if they do not get Rinso-in you know - theywere you know - they acted same way until they get Rinso-in. But after they get Rinso-in, Rinso-in willget into confusion. I know that pretty well. So I determined to -

SR: To stop them huh?

SR: Yeah, to stop them. So I have very difficult time for two years with extraordinary things happen.

PS: Like what, Roshi?

SR: Like what? Eighty of my Rinso-in members left from Rinso-in and went to some other temple. Withme that is alright, but they accused my responsibility and they said, "If Rinso-in leave us such a badexample, we will get rid of confusion. So that is your responsibility. Why you let them to go some othertemple? So if you say, 'I am sorry,' or if you ask for help we will get it, but you don't say 'I am sorry' oryou need help so we cannot help you.

SR: They said to you

R: Once a month we had a meeting and in each moment they accused my responsibility. But I said,"wait two years." you know. In two years if the eighty of my members don't come back I will resignRinso-in. So wait - without criticizing me for two years. And they agreed with that. And in two yearsalmost all of them came back.

PS: What happened to the priest who was trying to take Rinso-in?

SR: He has his own temple, so he lost his ambition, that's all. And he himself did not want to be a headpriest of Rinso-in so much, but some ambitious people around him -

PS: Lay people?SR: No, priests, mostly priests and some influential lay people.


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(Mitsu comes in and she and Suzuki talk sort of sharply with each other and Peter asks something.Suzuki has some appointment or obligation or talk or something.)

PS: Do you think it would be interesting Roshi for the students to know - is it best to give yourbiography very simple?

SR: Maybe so.

SR: Just facts? It doesn't make much sense.

SR: It doesn't make much sense, I'm afraid, you know, until - If they don't understand what is - whatkind of thing is going on (phone call - horrible background noise starts) - I don't know what to do withsome things.

PS: Yeah I'm trying to think what I do with it. How much I should put into the history. It's interesting toyour students, but maybe -

SR: No. Maybe for someone who is not a student. I don't know. to announce to students[?]

SR: I know. So maybe I should just -

SR: Because of this kind of experience I decided to come to America. No interesting thing in it. Justtalking to you. (I'm not interested in this kind of thing. This is record. Just confusion.[?who put this in?]So my history, my life in Japan was spent to fight, to struggle.

PS: Did you always win the struggles?

SR: Yeah. But it is not so. It is better to surrender. If I know American life earlier, I was sayonara a longtime ago. Like this, you know. (some gesture).

PS: It seems like many people are exiled to America. That some priests come to America as exiles - arepunished by being sent to America. They could have punished you a long time ago.

SR: Yes. Fortunately I knew how to handle them lot of times. Makes (more difficulties[?]circles[?].

PS: Too smart again.

SR: I won always, that was -

PS: Did you ever feel vain about it or are - ?

SR: No, no. I don't feel vain - just like, because of I am very impatient and angry I became very patientin order to win fights and so on. Hence I always started to fight because of my impatience. And once Istart to fight I should be very patient or else I'll lose that fight - so it is not - (dangerous(?) - endless?

PS: In Western astrology your birth [?]sign means you should be very stubborn. But your studentsdon't understand because you don't seem stubborn to them. - typical for your birth sign.

SR: Yes. I am very impatient, that is true.

PS: But Americans are so much more impatient than you. You seem very patient. Your students are -Japanese couldn't live with them.


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SR: Hmm. I may be patient with American people even before I came to America. Recently I feel in thatway very much. It may have something to do with past lives.

PS: And all your students think that in their past lives they were Japanese. Except me. I don't think so. -Chinese or Japanese.

SR: Maybe so. I don't know. This is big job. I'm, not interested in this kind of thing. I have no record,accurate record of my life. -

PS: Is there any meaning at all in having something about you in the Wind Bell ?

SR: This sort of thing?

PS: Some sort of history, some sort of biography, not too elaborate, but some sort. Not a book though.Maybe about four or five pages? Is that a mistake?

SR: Four or five!

PS: How much do you think? One? Half a page? A paragraph? One sentence? Suzuki Roshi biography:"I do not think much of this sort of thing and have not kept any records." End biography. You have theright to decide. This is your direct concern. How do you feel about this?

SR: I don't find answer to this kind of question my teacher (teaching) (in this life?[I don't hear that]

SR: Neither do I.

SR: If you see my record in this way, everything will be lost.

PS: Let me ask you a question Roshi. When you were forced to be political in your - when your (year?)30's and 40's, did you have many serious students? Was it possible?

SR: What do you mean?

PS: Well, when you had to have fights, when you had to have arguments

SR: Yes. I have young students who have same feelings. Like they did not participate in some mistakenthinking. But my youngest students, mostly in high school were very kind, helped a lot (encouragedme), and they, many of them, came to me because I have the same feelings. Most of them were notpriests but students. And at that time Japan was involved in some kind of wrong idea about strengthand power, some strange form, so that is another thing to tell to you

(end of side five) (radical machine noise till this point)

(end of tape)

(side six)

SR: In the thirties and the forties, Japan was involved in some strange - what did you say, power or?

SR: . . . some strange pride or confidence, confidence in power, some strange idea of nationalism.

PS: And you did not feel good about this?


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SR: No. What they say is very strange, you know. By television, by lecture, in various ways they tried tolead people in strange directions. And they didn't understand - they didn't try to understand actualrealistic situations or power of Japan. Although I didn't know anything about America or othercountries, I thought how powerful are they or how weak they all are, I didn't know, but I had someconfidence in human nature. Human nature is the same wherever we go. So they called American

people like beasts or devils. I always said beasts or devils is not only Japanese [does he meanAmerican?] people. We need big beasts or demons - those who have that kind of idea about someother type may be our enemy or demon or devil. I always said to them. And during the war they wereafraid of very much American people who may land sooner or later in Japan island. But I was not soafraid of them. They are also human beings. Nothing will happen if we surrender. Those who don'twant to surrender may die, and if they survive nothing will happen to them. But they burned theirpersonal record or various records in city hall. They started to burn it and they started to destroy thememorial tower, memorial tombstone of the unknown soldiers. But why do you do that? It is quitenatural to have memorial stone for the people who sacrificed their lives for their own country. Nothingwrong with it. If I explain - if we explain in that way why we have those tombstones, they mayunderstand what our point of view is.

PS: Oh I see. They thought that the Americans would destroy all the graves huh?.

SR: Grave, and if we have records in city hall.

PS: Americans would destroy that too.

SR: Americans search for each person to kill them or something. Very curious idea.

PS: Were you ever criticized, Roshi, for your sort of pacifistic views?

SR: I - Yeah, I was, but I didn't act officially. At my temple, in my lectures or when students come, I

talked about this kind of thing always, and even during the time when the war was almost finished.There still be some power or some courage to sacrifice their life to Japan. But I thought, that sacrifice isnot for Japan, but for some - know wrong i- someone who has wrong idea, who has some leadershipwhich be by big misunderstanding. So I - uh when they decided to destroy the big memorial stone forthe unknown soldiers, I told them to carry it to my temple. I said to them I will protect it as long as I'malive and as long as I'm here I will protect it, and I will take all the responsibility for that, I am sure.American people who will make any damage to this memorial stone.

PS: I'm a little worried, Roshi, if they were - not worried, I'm a little confused. If they were going to,who was trying, they thought the Americans would do what to the stone?

SR: Destroy the stone.PS: So the Japanese were going to destroy it first?

SR: Yeah. Destroy the first. And you know, they -

PS: Doesn't make sense, Roshi.

SR: Doesn't make sense, yeah - but they were so afraid of what they had been doing, afraid to beresponsible for it.

PS: But on unknown soldiers you can't tell.


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SR: But if we have still the tombstone, worshipping them, then those who have been worshippingthem will be punished or something. So no one will want to take responsibility for that. But - and ifthey destroy it, American people will feel very good for that purpose.

PS: What did you think of the atomic bomb, Roshi? The first time.

SR: The first time?

SR: Yeah, or you know, when uh - right before surrender.

SR: That was something you know which I haven't no idea of it you know, and how powerful it was Ididn't know. And even when I heard of it I couldn't trust it, that it was so powerful and that kind ofthing will happen. But most Japanese people, including me most Japanese people II haven't have no idea that thing would happen. But most Japanese people afraid of - too much fear about theirlife, you know, when they lost war. So in comparison to that atomic bomb uh was not so reasonablecause so much fear. I think most of them must have thought, anyway we will not live (be so?) so long -so long, maybe a good way to finish our life. They have no idea of righteousness, or humanity, or thoseproblems is not al- [partial word] not already a top question. And I I thought if it may be verysilly very foolish for us if we don't surrender right now. If we surrender they will stop doing such things.So best way may be to surrender. If they don't then that is uh all over, everything.

PS: What happened when the Yaizu fishermen were killed by the atomic fallout? [?]

SR: Most of them, I think, accused the American people, you know, because of the viewpoint ofrighteousness, but that righteousness is very superficial righteousness you know. They I think thiskind of feeling is the feeling we have about Okinawa problem you know. They talk about Okinawa invarious way, but no actual feeling is in it. It is just game, you know, political.

PS: Someone once said that you marched in a protest against something -

SR: Umhum.

SR: - at some point. What was that, Roshi?

SR: (long sigh)

SR: When was that or what was that all about?

SR: It was the time when Peace Corps[?] - uh not Peace Corps -

SR: Atomic submarine?

SR: Yeah. That was

SR: No, that's not it either probably. What was it Roshi? I don't want to force you.

SR: Hmm?

SR: Was it that? An atomic submarine or - ?

SR: Atomic submarine. At that time peace work, you know, and when atomic submarine wanted tocome to San Francisco and they had big demonstration. That is you know - uh - peace uh desire toexpress desire strong desire to against war. (phone) That is why I joined.


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PS: Someone mentioned that you once marched in a demonstration in Japan ever. Is that true?

SR: Yeah, I did.

PS: What was that for?

SR: That was after the war finished you know. And before the war I was much more strong feelingagainst war, so before the government started some organization to organize civilians against war - ohno, against America you know, I started, I organized young men in my area to have right understandingof situation of Japan at that time and to have more, to invite good people who have actuallyparticipating some important activity in government in various area. I invited them and - we invitedthem to ask question until we understand them, you know. So later government organized some - withsome purpose with the purpose to organize people to fight completely with America, but my purposewas to prevent - not war you know, but to prevent people who may have one-sided view in thesituation of Japan, or in understanding of ourselves and human nature. We, I started to, I wanted to, I -not big - I haven't not big purpose for my group, but I didn't want my friends to be involved in that kindnationalism which may destroy our Japan completely, which is more dangerous than war. We lostcompletely, you know, because of lack of our understanding.

PS: And wasn't this considered a very unique thing to do?

SR: Yeah. At that time.

PS: Did you get in trouble? Did you get in trouble for it?

SR: Yeah, I got into various troubles.

PS: What happened?

SR: What happened? At length it helped, you know, but at first I was very much criticized. But what Isay - I was saying right and enough people agreed with me so they decided to utilize me to help theiryou know - to help their idea of leading people. And they appointed me to be a head of the neworganization, which was started by government, but I resigned. I accepted once, you know, and nextday I resigned from it.

PS: Oh but oh this was when there was some conflict, I mean this is before uh -

SR: Before the war.

SR: Before the militarists took over.

SR: Yeah.

SR: Before the so - before the army took over.

SR: Yeah.

PS: What happened when the army took over?

SR: When the army took over my voice was not loud enough, you know.

PS: But the army didn't come after your voice?


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SR: No. It was not so bad. But uh that was why I think I didn't got uh - I didn't uh - I wasn't drafted youknow.

SR: Oh I see.

SR: They marked me - on my name maybe there was some special mark. He's dangerous, you know,and no reason to kill him or you know - I was not so big, but if he joined army or something what hewill say will affect them - the courage you know of the army.

PS: Were there many priests like you who were pacifists?

SR: Hmm?

SR: Were there many priests like you who were pacifists?

SR: They didn't take any stand. And that time was after the Second World War over

Yvonne Rand: You want to come back on the second? The second of October?

SR: Yeah.

Yvonne: Is that early enough?

SR: Yeah.

PS: You know something Roshi, your experiences like this would be very interesting to the students.

SR: Oh.

SR: Don't you think so?

SR: I think so.

PS: Maybe you could lecture on this tonight.

SR: (giggle) Oh, I think -

SR: I think it's good if Zen is not for war in America -

SR: Umhm, umhm.

SR: And you never speak about it. Maybe you have a reason for that.

SR: No. [Yeah, no? Sounds like both at different speeds but I think it's "no."]

SR: But if you don't have a strong reason, I think it's moral, it's ethically proper to speak against war.

SR: Uh-huh.

SR: And (laugh) I shouldn't do this - but anyway you know the students would like to know yourfeelings about it.

SR: I care more about the way of thinking.


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PS: I know, than the actual killing.

SR: Actual killing and - not actual killing, but the fundamental way of thinking which will cause big war.That is why I didn't like nationalists in Japan. Their view if very one-sided and very unrealistic. And theyaccuse some other's fault without knowing what they are doing, they actually creating problem.

PS: Maybe this is why the government did not persecute you, because you were approaching theproblem from religious point of view.

SR: Yeah. And yeah

SR: Not as a political.

SR: No.

SR: Not political.

SR: Not political.

SR: No.

SR: And uh after after the world war I was not purged. I have no record of fighting with military war.(phone) I have many printed matters expressing my feelings.

SR: Many what matters?

SR: Many things about the - what should be the policy, what kind of danger we have right now, youknow, in the nation, something like that. But most of it is - may be difficult to understand for people. Itis not - I didn't say anything about war or anything, but if we neglect to understand the situation ofJapan more clearly and if we understand things just by paper you know, we will lose the real picture ofJapan. So what I put the emphasis on is to study more about what everyone is doing in his country, inarmy or in other uh - as uh - in political world. I was very much interested in that kind of thing when Iwas young.

PS: I see. This is before the war or after the war now?

SR: Before the war.

PS: You said after the war they did not purge you?

SR: Because of this kind of anti-war

PS: Oh, were most priests purged?

SR: Yes. Most priests who joined the army.

PS: Lost their prop- [partial word] temple?

SR: No.

SR: Put in jail or

SR: They couldn't join some educational program or some official things, on education or city hall. But Iwasn't purged. They tried to purge me, but I showed them


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PS: Who was "they," the American soldiers in Yaizu?

SR: No, the government, the new government.

SR: Oh, the new government, yeah I see.

SR: So, they didn't - they had no reason to purge me.

PS: Did Rinso-in lose any land? Most temples lost land. Rinso-in lost land too much of it, most of it?

SR: Most of it.

SR: How much, Roshi?

SR: Mmm -

SR: You don't know in American terms I guess.

SR: Yeah. Most of it. Except, you know, mountain. If it is some paddy field or some place where youcan cultivate - we offer nowe should sell it to government.

PS: Did you think that was a good idea?

SR: Maybe. I thought, if we don't do that, I did think to force that to force that kind of thing to templeis not good idea, but to have not much land, you know, for anybody at once (?)

PS: I had heard, Roshi, I don't know where, somewhere, that before the war many of the Zen templeswere very rich and some of the priests were very corrupt and many priests kept concubines. Is thattrue? Particularly Rinzai temples. This is not for history. I'm just kind a curious.

SR: Concubines, no. Not so many temples were so rich, you know, even before the war. Most of thetemples were very poor. But after the war (small laugh) they lost everything and they started to workin city hall or as a teacher in various ways and they became more and more rich. (Peter laughs) inAmerica but I'm afraid Japanese people may have too much confidence in their activity again, youknow.

SR: Right now.

SR: Right now, more and more - without knowing you know why they become so rich or you know -

PS: This is like second Meiji Period.

SR: Second Meiji, yeah.

SR: (chuckle) (tape starts up again) How many people, about 200 people in your group? But theJapanese did do nothing violent in that sort of thing. That's very calm and quiet, huh?

SR: Yeah, calm and quiet.

SR: Like discussion group, philosophical discussion group [from here, not on my tape] rather thanrevolutionaries.

SR: Yes. Very calm and quiet.


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PS: It seems, Roshi, that the state of Japan in the thirties and forties limited you.

Interview of Suzuki- rshi by Peter Schneider

Circa 1969Entered onto disk by David Chadwick

Revised by Bill Redican 9/01

P: When did Caucasians begin sitting at Soko-ji?

S: Maybe one month after my arrival.

P: When did you arrive?

S: May 23, 1959.

P: You came by yourself?

S: Yes, by airplane. But at that time I was not appointed to this temple. I came here as assistant toTobase. Soon after I accepted, they changed the situation.

P: Was he living in Japan then or in San Francisco?

S: He, Tobase, was at that time in Japan. So I was invited to this temple, because he started editor (?)of St School. So they suggested ... and as he moved the headquarters, he wanted to live here. Myidea was that I wanted at that time to work on propagating our way.

P: With Caucasians? Japanese?

S: Maybe with Caucasians. In my mind I did say so. My idea was more emphasis on Caucasians, sincebefore they did not work with Caucasians so much. And headquarters wanted to work withCaucasians.

P: Why did they pick you?

S: (Confused politically) Some of them supported Bishop _______, some of them didn't ...management of this temple, some people wanted him to be Bishop and some wanted him more ... tothis temple. And the members were divided in two and he was involved in that.

P: What happened to headquarters in San Francisco?

S: Soon (after) my arrival, headquarters voted to take care . . . but of course I refused because I'm notBishop, just to take care of business of headquarters. Too much. At that time Tobase's wife was stillhere, so the idea was for his wife to take care of actual business and they wanted me to be a SotoBishop. Because I didn't know the situation in America so well. He actually couldn't come back becauseof the confusion that was. And I was just here taking care of this temple.


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At that time Dick (Derek?), McNeil, and Joanne Kogert (Kyger?). She came about six months after.Beerman his wife came when they first came here to practice. McNeil sat here and he went to Japanthe next year.

P: When did you sit?

S: In the morning at 5:30, at the same time. At that time we had benches downstairs, full of oldbenches, so they had to sit on two benches together, so that they could sit. For more than one yearthey sat that way. Five or six of them. That was 1960. In 1961 we had many students, and as they gaveme some money I asked them to take care of that money and also to take care of some expenses ...some equipment (?). Naturally we got more and more money. I thought it must be better to havesome organization to take care of all business. That is why the organization came about. We discussednames that would be appropriate and at last decided to call it Zen Center. This was in l961, but it tookall of one year to get permission from the state.

The mats were put in the zend in 1961. They took care of it themselves. There were more than fifteenpeople sitting in 1961.

P: Who were the first people after Bill McNeil and his wife?

S: Jean, David Warez (?), Betty Warren, Della, Baker in 1961. In 1960 ... and Bob Hense. They werepeople who were studying Oriental religion. At that time Dr. Kato was here. He had been living herebefore I came. Bishop Tobase had invited him. (Kazemitsu Kato)

P: How did you choose to come to America?

S: Bishop Tobase asked headquarters to send someone to help him and they couldn't find anyonebecause maybe the position they would have here in America was not so solvent (as to whether he

was resident, priest, assistant, or ...). But I didn't mind that kind of situation. My idea of coming was toturn a new leaf for myself and for the St way of propagating religion in America. That was ratherambitious.

In Japan I was resident priest of Rinso-in temple of one monastery in Shizuoka-ken in Japan. I wasteacher at the monastery. There were nine teachers. They didn't appoint any head teacher. Yeah, I washead teacher. Maybe 30 students. Nean (?)- rshi was the founder. He was maybe 65 or 66. Soon afterhe died, there was a celebration for his 61st birthday.

(Story of how his friend talked him into coming to America.)

So at that time actually this temple was in confusion and the resident priest was Tobase. He wasBishop of Amana (?) and no one knew what to do, it seemed. So it seemed like a good idea to sendsomeone who could be a Bishop. Anyway, they wanted to send someone. Not many people wanted tocome, or maybe people wanted to come but headquarters didn't accept them. Headquartersappointed several people but they didn't accept the position. My friend, who was director, didn't knowwhat to do, and he said jokingly, "Why don't you go?" I have not much responsibility for the confusion.I did not cause the confusion and I shall be free from it. ... If I cannot help ... so maybe I should come .

P: More freedom than you had in Japan?

S: No, more freedom if I were in some certain part of conscience (?) and I was invited to ... I had maderesponsibility.


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Anyway, this temple was confusion. I was ... at that time this temple would give me more freedom.And in one month my friend came (again) I said to him I will go.

P: He was still kidding?

S: Yes. When I said I'd go, he was amazed.

P: Did he want you to go?

S: Not so much, no, because he felt some responsibility for my temple and we are quite near him andthe priests I know and also the priests he is very much works with (?). He is bishop now. Dick met himalready. He speaks no English.

I learned most of my English at college, Komazawa. When I was young I wanted to go abroad anyway,but my master wouldn't allow it. I guess he wanted me to take care of his temple.

P: Where did you want to go? To America or somewhere else?

S: I had no preference of where. Maybe America. There is not so much chance to go to some othercountry. At least I wanted to go to Hokkaido. It was difficult to change. It is very bad, for instance, if Icome to San Francisco and move again somewhere else without doing much ... if I fulfill someresponsibility here, then we feel to move somewhere; but without doing anything, to movesomewhere else is not so good. So we must stay at our temples.

P: Do you have much responsibility at your temple? Do you have many disciples in Japan?

S: More than ten, but they are not dharma disciples.

P: So you do not have a dharma disciple?

Side 2

P: How long did you plan to stay in America when you first came?

S: I had no idea, but I said to them I'll come back in three years, but actually in my mind I'll stay prettylong. You see, I had no stable position when I accepted, so it meant that for one or two years I wouldbe voluntary priest until I meet someone to help me.

P: Did you ever go to Los Angeles that way?

S: No.

Okusan came to America three years later, 1962. I did not return to Japan during those years. Myfriend went back to send my wife. She was teaching and managing two kindergartens.

P: Who, Yaesu?

S: I wanted my friend to help her get out of the kindergarten.

P: When did Otohiro come?

S: 1962, with her.

P: How long did she think she was going to stay?


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S: She promised to bring me back to Japan in three years more. She promised kindergarten and mycongregation. When I decided not to return to Japan even after the second three years I had to resign,and fortunately they wanted my boy to be my successor. That is very good. (Then he says somethingthat is "not so good" or maybe it's that same thing.)

P: Did you ever think, when you had only a few students, of how much you wanted to see Zen Centergrow? Did you have any plans for Zen Center?

S: No, I haven't. But I had an idea. That idea was, when I was asked to manage the Bishop's business, Iasked headquarters to send some good Zen master, at least like Bishop Hamiyama (?).

P: Who was he?

S: He wouldn't leave Japan (?). Or someone like him was necessary. So I wanted to have someone sentwho (can be famous?) (good Zen master?) (archbishop?). So that is why Yamada- rshi came.

P: How long did he stay?

S: He stayed four years. He came in 1961 and returned in 1965. And then Bishop Sumi came threeyears ago. And now Bishop Yamada is the assistant archbishop at Eihei-ji. So that means he mustbecome archbishop of Eihei-ji. And nowadays our headquarters ... the Japanese. They don'tunderstand the situation so well.

P: You say you had a plan?

S: To set up some educational program for exchanging students and to have some school-like systemhere, and the head could be some responsible Bishop like (?) Sumi- rshi and I can help (?).

P: And this never happened.S: Never. But this was actually why Yamada- rshi came. After he came he didn't allow me to organizethat school. Instead he wanted to have a school at Los Angeles. Maybe he wanted to build it byhimself.

P: Did he ever have a school?

S: He tried but he didn't. And Maezumi-sensei was there. And it was only Maezumi who helpedCaucasian people. It is interesting ... Yamada- rshi was not successful. I knew that and I told him itwould be much better to do it here, but he didn't agree with me. I asked him to allow me to open ZenCenter ... (lost) ... another idea was to have monastery, not only school. My idea was not so big asTassajara. Some monastery in Santa Cruz mountains I thought. And we actually saw many places. Wewere offered several places not places, names.

P: How do you mean names?

S: Without (?) property with a clear title. You may have a clear title.... As long as don't have title Icannot do anything . One was in the Valley of the Moon in Sonoma, one hour from here, beautifulplace, almost right in the center of the town. And another was Russian River. The third was DurandKeefer's offer? I don't know. He showed me many. He said you can have this place, you can have thisone, this one. Too many.

P: So why did you decide to pick Tassajara?


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S: Before I saw it I thought it was too far away from here. I had no idea of the site of the place. WhenDick introduced me to the place I thought in the car it is too far away from Monterey. Where'sTassajara? I was tired out but as soon as I came to the top of the mountain I was fascinated. And it isquite distant and the road is wild (?), and it is well-protected, and no one will ... and the hot springs isbeautiful. It is maybe too ... but ....

P: But first you were going to buy the Horse Pasture?

S: And that didn't have the creek or the hot springs. But my idea was already Tassajara. You know itdoesn't need anything, not much, just to own Horse Pasture: to have that place means some day we'llhave Tassajara.

P: Did Dick know that?

S: Yes, of course. He is more ambitious.

P: Did you think Tassajara would grow so much?

S: No. I actually wondered whether Dick could raise money so quickly. I thought we will have prettymuch difficulties in raising money.

P: Do you think it is easier for students to practice now than it was back in 1959? Are there differencesin students? Do you notice differences in Americans in ten years?

S: Yes. Before the students were ones who were interested in Japanese culture or Oriental culture.And next came beatnik type people interested in Zen, as Alan says, square Zen.

P: Beat Zen?

S: At that time it was may square Zen. Alan started being interested in beat Zen, and the people whobasically (studied) the beatnik way and view of life, had some kind of interest ... at that time.Nowadays there are more young generation ... because of war in Vietnam, changed their life ... Icannot say serious, but they have more direct discrimination of the modern civilization. I think that iswhy we have so many students, young students. They are not interested in any other ways but Zen.Some of them are interested in some Vedanta school or some Indian sect . . . most of the young onesare interested more in Zen. I think so. I think that is one reason why we have so many young students.

P: And so it'd be easier for the newer students. They do not want to be beatniks, they don't want to bescholars either. They just want to be Zen students.

S: Yes. I think so.

P: What about hippies then?

S: Hippies need more help ... intellectually. They are too young. Anyway they have to study something.In this sense they want some help.

P: To go back. What was your plan when the school did not work out?

S: I thought, anyway, when Bishop Yamada decided to organize a school there I thought he will not besuccessful. Anyway, if we practice in our way with students, that would be good enough.

P: You felt you didn't need a school anymore.


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S: We don't have a school here actually. But we are applying to exchange students and to invite someteachers to Tassajara.

P: Why do you want to exchange students?

S: My original motivation to come to America was not only to propagate Zen in America, but also toimprove Zen in Japan too. They are sleeping. So if Tassajara is very successful, and if they know howsincere we are, they may think they should even exchange. They will see what we are doing herenaturally be aroused (?) perhaps (?) they will be more sincere.

P: So you decided to have the school because most of your first students were scholars. You thoughtthat to become Zen students you'd have to give them something some candy? Candy for the mind?

S: Not candy. Anyway, all that we are doing is candy. Everything . . . candy is the most important food,actually.

P: I don't understand. Why is candy the most important thing?

S: Because that is purpose not purpose of Zen the first principle without any actual activity doesn'tmean anything. Sambhogakya is the body o f bliss. And that's candy. May not candy but food.

P: Should we say anything about the Japanese becoming one people again? In other words, not havingsplit any more? Having two parties become one.

S: Yes. That is not . . . that is confusion . . . in two party. One party is not so good. If they can managethe two party system as you do it. But Japanese people are too independent . . .not so good . . .

Doubt. Doubt means . . . I like the word doubt. They'll not doubt other things (?) They're very serious

and they're not so strong in this instance (?). Anyway, Japan is so small.P: When did the Wind Bell begin? Who started the Wind Bell ?

Beginning of Tape 2

P: ... during the past eight years?

S: First of all I had plenty of time to spend with students. Sometimes to go to museum. Sometime tomovie to restaurant, because I was around here and we had not many students, so we had a verygood time. At the same time I didn't want Zen Center to be a kind of social group. So I tried to refrainfrom that kind of social activity. I wanted to devote ourselves just to Zen practice. Not much eating orseeing movies, etc. Graham was agreed with my idea of not to be a social club. Dick was mostlyinterested in understanding of thought of Zen. He was interested in more study. Graham was moreinterested in zazen practice. First Graham didn't like Christian type of rituals, and after he came to ZenCenter he was very interested in his practice and rituals. Bishop Yamada like him very much the wayhe sit, the way the practice. For instance, when he sat he brushed his feet off.

P: When we began to sit, back in 1962, when I came, maybe because of Graham, the zendo was verystern. It was very hard to move. It was very important not to move. Now with more people it's not sostern as it used to be. Have you noticed that change?

S: ... because of Graham? He never moved. He was like a Japanese student. They were not so young

students at that time. Dick, Jean, Roger. He was maybe the youngest.


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P: Who cooked for you?

S: Myself. If I didn't want to I visited some Japanese member's home, and sometimes a student's. Butthe way they cooked was not so appropriate for me. First of all it was too much food. And the fooditself you like more sour? Fruits and sour taste. I think that is because you eat meat. For a Japanese,

your taste is too sour. For instance, you like pineapple very much but to me it is too sour. MostlyEvelyn and Della and Betty and some other students cooked. Sometimes Jean buy something for me,but it would be too sour for me.

P: . . . every night?

S: No, every morning after zazen. At nighttime I cooked by myself. At that time we wouldn't sit.

P: I think you were sitting in the evenings when I was here, Rshi.

When was the first one-day sesshin ?

S: 1962 (?). After we got the mats. I remember the first week sesshin was 1962 also. August 1962. Six-day sesshin .

P: When you first came did you think Caucasian students would be able to sit long periods?

S: Yes I thought so, because when I was in Japan I knew some Caucasians who were sitting. She gaveme some confidence (?) (English woman?) ... possible for Caucasians to understand Zen and to practiceZen.

P: When you first came here Americans did not think so did they? Did you experience that? Thatpeople felt that Americans could not study Zen? Did people tell you that often?

S: No, because they were the people who came to sit and study, they didn't. But most young Zen (?)people, they .... But I had thought that ...

P: Were there some Caucasian students with Tobase who lived here before you left?

S: I heard many names of Tobase's students but they didn't appear. ... Sasaki .... But since Tobase washere he came to help him.

P: After Sasaki died?

S: Yes.

P: He was ordained by ...

S: Yes, by Sasaki, another Sasaki St Sasaki from Japa n. He was the head of the headquarters at thattime. He had a yellow robe.

P: How about Iru Price. Was he a student?

S: No, I don't think so.

P: He was a St priest, though. Ordained.

S: Yes, he was ordained in Japan.


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P: So all of the students who came to you had never studied Zen with a teacher before. So much.

S: Yes. Claude had with Tobase. But Claude came later.

P: How did Betty Warren, Della Goertz, and Jean Ross find out about you?

S: Jean talked about it. She came often. She first came to study Asian things at the Asian Academy tostudy Oriental things. Kazemitsu came here.

P: And Betty?

S: I don't know ... yes, I think so.

P: And Della?

S: Betty and Della were good friends. So maybe Della brought her here.

P: How about Graham? How did he find Zen Center?

S: I don't know how. Did Dick know him?

P: I don't think so. Not until afterwards. I think Graham was here before Dick by a little bit. Would younotice when a new student came every day?

S: Yes. At that time there was a very small number.

P: How did they react when you had them begin to chant in Japanese?

S: I don't know. I was always doing the same thing anyway even before they came. Bowing three times,not nine times. I don't remember when I changed from three bows to nine.

P: You must have felt some reason for changing.

S: I thought you want more practice than we ... Japanese want. That is what I said then. Bow is verygood practice, and after sitting we feel very good.

P: Why didn't you have sesshins right after 1959?

S: Because we weren't so many, just two or three people. Ru (?), McNeil, and Bill McNeil, Bob Hense.Another monk (?) And later Charles Given came and Bob Karr (?) came and Connie ... (?) And from

Fields Book Store and her friend Woods ... (?). Joanne (?) Kyger came in maybe 1960.

P: There are not so many of the old students here, particularly the men students. Why do you thinkthat is true?

S: The reason is on their side because they changed their residence. For instance Bob went to Chicago.Charles Gilman is still in Oakland, but he said "My purpose of coming to you is to know something fromyou and I feel you more friend than teacher." And he wanted me to serve tea in tea ceremony way orsomething like that. And he wanted me to see his cousin in some Japanese style. That was his way. Butwhen he started Berkeley zendo he offered us his house for zendo. He has practiced more than sixmonths at his home. And Bob Karr, he is interested in Japanese things and he helps Japanese studentswho come to San Francisco to study at City College.

I think only Graham Petchey or Dick Baker who are interested in zazen itself stay.


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P: How about Bill Kwong?

S: I understand his way of life. He is more Japanese than Chinese. His practice is maybe not so goodbecause he sleeps a lot. Too much. I don't think he is a good Zen student. But he takes care of thingsvery sincerely and he is very constant. He doesn't change. And he doesn't mind what sort of thing we

have at Zen Center. Anyway, he is helping us. So I understand his way, so I don't mind. I don't worryabout him even though he doesn't come it is alright with me and with him too. He's a very goodstudent in that way.

P: How can someone help from not sleeping much?

S: If he sleeps at night he will be alright. But those who sleep in zazen are mostly people who sit up lateand whose determination is not so strong.

P: And Philip came in 1961 also?

S: Yes.

P: Do so many students come and go in Japan also?

S: My students stayed pretty well in Japan. They are not forming any one group, but whenever I go toJapan immediately they come and they always keep in contact with each other. Even so, not all ofthem stay maybe 70. Two or three out of ten. Of course they have some reason. It is quite difficult tobe always in one group. They are doing pretty well. In my temple the group I started is still practicingunder my friend's instruction.

P: How much do they practice? Do they sit every day?

S: No. They come to the temple twice a month and usually they sit at home. When I was there theyhad more chance to come to my temple, but not of course they have new members there may bethirty of them or more. The other people who are helping ... my boy.

P: How did Los Altos get started?

S: First of all, do you know Hal Ford? I conducted his marriage ceremony at Los Altos, and I saw hiswife's home, and I thought there might be some place to sit in this area, and I liked the surroundings ofLos Altos. I thought with Stanford there must be some who are interested in Zen. So I discussed withTim Brackett. And he suggested that we sit in one of their dormitories, so I started a Zen group in Tim'sdormitory. Then we moved to Margaret Hall's and sat for maybe six months. And then Marian offeredher house. . . . (one word lost) . . . you laugh . . . don't you stop (?).

P: Did you once have nyushinshiki ceremony with thirty students? What is that?

S: That was to give dokusan and dharma ji nets (?). Claude asked me to have it in that Tassajaratraining period, but it was not possible because we have to make all ... the cards ... forty dharmainitiates (?) that is a big job. I couldn't do it.

P: So in 1962 you made lay Buddhist students.

S: Ordained thirty lay students. Since then I ordained Trudy, three months ago.

P: How many monks have you ordained? Caucasian monks?


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S: McNeil, Bob, Jean supposed to be, but I don't have official record. I didn't report to headquarters ...The reason was I asked her to have ceremony by archbishop of Eihei-ji because she was going, and Iwas very busy at that time and it was rather difficult situation to ordain just Jean here, so anyway shewas ordained there, but the archbishop doesn't take any disciple, he just ordains on behalf of me.Graham, Dick, Philip, Ron Browning, and Joyce. That's all.

P: Claude wanted me to ask you about your theory of having a no-temple.

S: The theory of having no-temple is actually Rev. Senzaki's idea. Not only his. We are that kind ofthought. To manage temple or to build a big temple is not the only way to be sincere in our practice.Sometimes just helping people, encouraging people some superficial way and there is not muchunderstanding by having just a temple. And as you see there are big parties at the temple and keepingthe priests busy taking care of those social affairs. That is not so good. So if we have no-temple, it isnot necessary to take care of those social things. We can devote ourselves just to practice andpropagate teaching.

P: So you tried to keep Zen Center for lay students mostly?

S: Yes. I was more interested in having sincere lay students rather than monks.

P: Why?

S: As soon as you have a title monk, priest, etc. you become involved in some idea of rank orposition or something like that. That is not always so good. It is anyway easier to practice without thatkind of idea, and there is not much difference between laymen's life and priest's life nowadays. Veryclose. We don't know which is which. But as we are, maybe it is time to have some more priests. So myidea is to continue to exchange students between Japan and America and if possible to study Chineseor southern (?) or India. To learn the Indian Buddhist way if possible to have some more good

teachers.

P: From India?

S: Yes, if possible. I found [Lama] Govinda. ... I cannot agree, but I liked his attitude.

P: ...

S: Yes, that is true. They all colle cting. The army collected all that . Even if you think .

P: Oh, in World War II. They made for guns and things.

S: Yes.

P: So you think perhaps it's best for American Buddhism to be lay Buddhism?

S: No. I don't mean that. . . . On the other hand my theory is to have good monks and priests who maypractice at . . .(?). (Interrupted) . . .

P: What is the relation between takuhatsu and American Zen?

S: If we have many students, maybe we will.

P: How will we do it?S: We would dress up in takuhatsu robe ... television ...


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P: How about general spirit on takuhatsu for original Buddhists?

Last Side

S: ... I don't know when Dick's started. He would listen to me. He was always writing, and he wouldcome and ask questions about the article is actually what I really meant . For quite a long time wedid it. I don't remember when we started.

P: The lectures were written from Dick's notes then?

S: Yes mostly. He didn't use tape recorder.

P: When you first came to America, people said that you used to go out and do takuhatsu in thestreets.

S: Yes, I did.

P: For how long?

S: Once in a while I did it. For maybe one year or so. That was the staff. Before I did it without ... Ibrought just head of the staff, and someone gave that long stick to me, and since then Imade takuhatsu with that staff. I started from here to Filmore and sometimes I started from here todowntown.

P: What did people think of you?

S: Quite a few people knew what I was doing. And some people gave me $1 or fifty cents ... that wasbig surprise. I did this once a week and sometimes continuously two or three days.

P: Did you raise much money that way?

S: No.

P: What did the police think of it?

S: I don't know. They never said anything. Perhaps they didn't know what I was doing.

P: But not only Japanese gave you money. Caucasians too?

S: Yes.

P: You know it's against the law to beg in America?

S: Yes, someone told me. But I still did it anyway.

P: Why did you stop?

S: Because I became more and more busy.

P: Why did you begin?

S: Because I can continue (clock chimes, can't understand words) ... because in America it is rather

difficult because they lock their door. In the city we can do it, but out of town it is rather difficult to do


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it. We cannot meet the people ... in the streets they are in the car so it is very difficult. So the onlyplace we can is like a big city or the center of some town.

P: Didn't you think it sort of strange to begin doing it just to go out in an American street?

S: No, I didn't think so. Because when we do takuhatsu anyway it is something strange for thepeople maybe something which people do not understand so well. So I pretty well experienced thatkind of feeling. Anyway, it is strange, so I don't mind so much. How they feel is not my business it'stheir business. I just do it.

P: No reason really

End of page 12

Shunry Suzuki -rshi INTERVIEW WITH PETER SCHNEIDERSunday, November 9, 1969

[Tape starts with background group chatter. Then the mike is set up, and more group chatter follows.Then Peter Schneider asks Suzuki- rshi a question.]

Peter Schneider: I would like to ask Rshi a question for the Wind Bell that I was going to type tape just with him, but I think it's a would interest you, so . It will appear in the next Wind Bell . And thequestion is to have Rshi talk abou t Mrs. [Miss] Ransom.

Suzuki- rshi: No. [Laughter.] I must tell you she was my old, old girlfriend [loud laughter].

Peter Schneider: I'll have some water. [Loud laughter.]

Suzuki- rshi: Almost, but not quite [laughter]. When I was young, even from a boy, I couldn't [wasn't]satisfied with Buddhist life, you know, because of many reasons. So I wanted to to be a good teacherwhen I was very young, and I wanted to [1-2 words unclear] people who who did not priest did notrespect priests so much. But I at that time, my ambition may be directed to wrong direction [?].

But anyway, I made up my mind to leave my home and to study to practice under strict teacher. So Iwent to my master's temple. And my master [Gyokujun So-on] was a disciple of my father. And myfather, when he was young, [was] very strict with his disciples. And my master was one of the hismy father's disciple who [was] raised up in very, very strict way. And he was my master was alwaystalking about my father's strictness with him. And I that was very, you know that was hardestsituation for me to accept, you know. My master almost blaming of my father. "Your father," [tappingrepeatedly] you know, "raised me in this way." [Laughs.] That was very hard to to listen to. Anyway,this is not what I want to talk [about]. But

So naturally, this kind of spirit I have all the way maybe I became until maybe thirty or more. Aftermy master's dea

Entrevistas Com Shunryu Suzuki Rōshi

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