DUNNTRIAL12 - Law of Self-Defenselawofselfdefense.web.unc.edu/files/2014/10/Stacey-Simons.pdf ·...
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2438 appreciate it. We ready to proceed then, everybody? MS. COREY: The state is ready, Your Honor. THE COURT: Mr. Strolla? MR. STROLLA: Yes, Your Honor. THE COURT: All right. Ms. Corey, you'll tell me when you want me to read the stipulation. MS. COREY: Yes, sir. THE COURT: All right. Bring the jurors on in. (Jury in at 10:33 a.m..) THE COURT: All right. Welcome back. And you can resume your seats, ladies and gentlemen. We're ready to begin with our next witness. Ms. Corey. MS. COREY: Yes, sir. Dr. Stacey Simons. THE COURT: Dr. Stacey Simons. Good morning, Doctor. If you'll come forward for us, please. Come right up here to the front and raise your right hand. The clerk will administer the oath to you. STACEY SIMONS, having been produced and first duly sworn as a witness on behalf of the State, testified as follows: THE WITNESS: I do. THE COURT: All right. Doctor, if you'll come
Transcript of DUNNTRIAL12 - Law of Self-Defenselawofselfdefense.web.unc.edu/files/2014/10/Stacey-Simons.pdf ·...
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appreciate it.
We ready to proceed then, everybody?
MS. COREY: The state is ready, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Strolla?
MR. STROLLA: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Ms. Corey, you'll tell
me when you want me to read the stipulation.
MS. COREY: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: All right. Bring the jurors on
in.
(Jury in at 10:33 a.m..)
THE COURT: All right. Welcome back. And you
can resume your seats, ladies and gentlemen. We're
ready to begin with our next witness. Ms. Corey.
MS. COREY: Yes, sir. Dr. Stacey Simons.
THE COURT: Dr. Stacey Simons. Good morning,
Doctor. If you'll come forward for us, please.
Come right up here to the front and raise your
right hand. The clerk will administer the oath to
you.
STACEY SIMONS,
having been produced and first duly sworn as a witness
on behalf of the State, testified as follows:
THE WITNESS: I do.
THE COURT: All right. Doctor, if you'll come
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right around here and have a seat for us, please.
And you can adjust that microphone as you need and
be sure to speak directly into it and loudly enough
so we can all hear you, all right?
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
THE COURT: Thank you. Ms. Corey.
MS. COREY: Yes, Your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. COREY:
Q State your name for the record.
A Stacey Aline Simons.
Q What is your profession?
A I'm a forensic pathologist.
Q Are you a duly licensed physician and
surgeon?
A Yes, I am.
Q How long have you been licensed in the State
of Florida?
A I've been licensed since 2011 in the State of
Florida.
Q Are you licensed in any other states?
A Yes, I am, in the State of Washington since
2009.
Q Where did you receive your medical degree?
A At New York Medical College, and I graduated
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in 2006.
Q Can you please give the jury a brief
understanding of your continued education and training
to become a medical examiner?
A Yes. It's kind of a long course. After
medical school I did a four-year residency program in
combined anatomic and clinical pathology and that was
done the first year at Brigham and Women's Hospital in
Boston and the last three years at the University of
Washington in Seattle.
I graduated and then moved on to a one-year
fellowship in forensic pathology and that was done at
the Miami-Dade County Medical Examiner and I completed
that year in 2011. After that I started working
professionally.
Q All right. And did you recently do a term
with the Jax -- with the Duval County Medical
Examiner's Office which is considered the Fourth
District M.E.?
A Yes. I was employed there from July of 2011
until my resignation in January of 2014.
Q What is pathology?
A Pathology is a specialized branch of medicine
that identifies and diagnoses disease and injury.
Q What is forensic pathology?
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A So that is a pathologist who has even more
specialty training which allows them to conduct
examinations and investigations in cases of violent
death or suspicious death or sudden and unexpected
death.
Q What is clinical pathology?
A Clinical pathology is the study of body
fluids to help diagnose disease and other entities.
Q Have you had study in all of those areas?
A Yes.
Q Are you board-certified in any of these
areas?
A I am board-certified in anatomic and clinical
pathology and also board-certified in forensic
pathology.
Q How many autopsies have you conducted or
participated in in your career?
A Well, the total number of cases that I've
worked on in my career is approximately a thousand to
1,050 and of that complete autopsies approximately 825
to 850.
Q Have you ever testified as an expert in
pathology, forensic pathology, anatomic pathology or
clinical pathology in the courts of the State of
Florida?
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A Yes, I have.
Q And having testified were you allowed to
render opinions as an expert in those same fields in
the courts of the State of Florida?
A Yes, I was.
Q How many times?
A Three times.
MS. COREY: Your Honor, at this time I would
tender Dr. Simons as an expert in forensic,
anatomic and clinical pathology.
THE COURT: Mr. Strolla.
MR. STROLLA: Without objection, Judge.
THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen,
then Dr. Simons will be declared to be an expert in
the area of forensic, clinical and anatomical
pathology and as I mentioned earlier that means she
can offer an opinion in those fields.
BY MS. COREY:
Q Is it the practice of the Medical Examiner's
Office for each associate medical examiner to fully
document each autopsy as it is performed?
A Yes.
Q Are you all bound by Florida Statutes as to
what should be done in an autopsy?
A Yes, we are.
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Q And do you follow those statutes routinely
for each autopsy?
A Yes.
Q Does part of that require a toxicological
exam be done on every person who is autopsied?
A Well, specifically statute indicates that if
a violent death has occurred within 12 hours the
autopsy occurs within 12 hours -- I'm sorry. If a
person dies within 12 hours of a violent incident then
you must perform a toxicological examination.
Q All right, ma'am, and are there people
working with you throughout the Medical Examiner's
Office who do various parts of the autopsy with regard
to bringing the body into your office, documenting
clothing, performing the toxicology, et cetera?
A Yes, we have a regular staff with several
departments that participate.
Q Do all of those persons make notes as part of
the normal course of your business?
A Yes.
Q Are all of those notes and reports then put
into an official autopsy report?
A Yes, they are.
Q Are photographs taken at the time of the
autopsy?
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A Yes, they are.
Q Do those also become part of the official
autopsy report?
A They do.
Q Are items of physical evidence preserved and
turned over to the law enforcement agency handling any
particular criminal case?
A Yes, they are.
Q Is an autopsy report kept forever at the
Medical Examiner's Office?
A Yes, it is.
Q Was such a report made for Jordan Davis in
this particular case?
A Yes, it was.
Q Was there a specific Medical Examiner number
assigned to his case?
A Yes, there was.
THE WITNESS: Judge, may I refer to my notes?
THE COURT: Yes, ma'am.
MR. STROLLA: Judge, if she could just be
reminded not to read.
THE COURT: Right. Just reference them to
refresh your recollection. Don't necessarily read
from them.
THE WITNESS: Okay. So the case number
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assigned for Jordan Davis was 12 dash 1982.
BY MS. COREY:
Q And have you had an opportunity to review
this file coming to court today?
A Yes, I have.
Q When was the body of Jordan Davis brought to
the Medical Examiner's Office?
A The body of Jordan Davis was brought into the
Medical Examiner's Office on the morning of
November 24th, 2012, at 1:14.
Q And as part of your statutory duty are you
required to look at any hospital records that may
pertain to a patient who died at the hospital and is
then brought in for an autopsy?
A Yes. We do get medical records and those are
reviewed.
Q And did you review the medical records from
Shands Hospital pertaining to Jordan Davis?
A Yes, I did.
Q At what time and on what date was Jordan
Davis pronounced dead?
A He was pronounced dead on the 23rd of
November at 8:15 p.m..
Q Was there evidence of medical intervention by
either Jax Fire and Rescue or Shands Hospital?
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A Yes, there was.
Q And can you just briefly describe what was
done for the jury?
A Most prominently there were two chest tubes
which are tubes that are inserted into the side of the
chest to either reinflate the lungs or remove blood,
and there was an intratracheal tube which was a tube to
open an airway and there was also a line that was
placed in the front part of the lower -- the left lower
leg.
Q Does any of the medical intervention in any
way inhibit your ability to perform a proper autopsy?
A No, it does not.
Q Okay. I'm going to show you a photograph
marked into evidence as state's exhibit 138 and ask
you, ma'am, do you recognize this?
A Yes, I do.
MS. COREY: Your Honor, at this time I would
ask the Court to read the stipulation and the jury
instruction attendant to it.
THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen,
when lawyers agree that certain facts are true
that's called a stipulation of fact. You must
accept the stipulated facts as having been proven.
However, the significance of these facts as with
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all facts is for you to decide.
In this case the stipulated fact that I'm
about to read for you that you must accept as true
is the State of Florida, the defendant and his
attorney have hereby stipulated to the following:
The body examined on November the 24th and 25th,
2012 by Dr. Stacey A. Simons bearing the Medical
Examiner's case number of 12 dash 1982 is that of
Jordan Davis.
BY MS. COREY:
Q And, ma'am, again I'll ask you, is your
Medical Examiner number underneath Mr. Davis' chin in
this photo for purposes of documentation?
A Yes, it is.
Q And this photo is 138 for the record.
Let me ask you, ma'am, before conducting the
autopsy, was Jordan Davis measured for height?
A Yes, he was.
Q What height was recorded for him?
A 5 feet and 11 inches.
Q Was Jordan Davis weighed?
A Yes, he was.
Q Was he weighed with clothing or without
clothing?
A He was weighed in what we call the as is
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state which means in the body bag with some sheets and
his clothing.
Q As he had come to you from the Medical
Examiner -- I mean from the Shands Hospital?
A Exactly.
Q What was his weight with the clothing and the
other items that were on the tray?
A 145 pounds.
Q Would you expect based on your experience
that Jordan David weighed -- Jordan Davis weighed less
than 145 pounds considering the amount of clothing and
sheets?
A Yes, I would.
Q Where was the autopsy conducted?
A At 2100 Jefferson Street in the morgue.
Q In addition to the autopsy that was performed
was there a toxicology screen done?
A Yes, there was.
Q Explain the purpose of the toxicology screen
to the jury.
A So we look for anything from drugs of abuse
to drugs that are prescribed but in inappropriate
amounts to alcohol, to anything over the counter that
might also be detrimental.
Q Based on the toxicology report submitted for
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Jordan Davis were there any drugs or alcohol found in
his system?
A No. There was nothing found.
Q Were there any external wounds to the body of
Jordan Davis?
A Yes, there were.
Q Did some of those wounds continue to the
internal portions of his body?
A Yes, they did.
Q What was the cause of Jordan Davis' death?
A Multiple gunshot wounds.
Q And what was the manner of his death?
A Homicide.
Q When the autopsy of the external portions of
his body was conducted, was that on a different day
from the autopsy of the internal portion?
A Yes, it was.
(REPORTER'S NOTE: For easier reading
continuation of transcript in next volume.)
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IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THEFOURTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT, INAND FOR DUVAL COUNTY, FLORIDA.
CASE NO: 2012-CF-11572
DIVISION: CR-D
STATE OF FLORIDA
-vs-
MICHAEL DUNN,
Defendant.
STATE OF FLORIDA )
COUNTY OF DUVAL )
Trial before the Honorable Russell Healey, Judge
of the Circuit Court, Division CR-D, as cause in this
matter came to be heard on the 10th of February, 2014,
before Melanie D. Simpkins, Certified Realtime
Reporter, Registered Professional Reporter, Florida
Professional Reporter and a Notary Public in and for
the State of Florida at Large.
OFFICIAL REPORTERS, INC.201 EAST ADAMS STREETJACKSONVILLE, FL 32202
(904) 358-2090
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APPEARANCES:
ANGELA COREY, Attorney at Law,
State Attorney,
Appearing on behalf of the State of Florida.
JOHN GUY, Esquire,
Assistant State Attorney,
Appearing on behalf of the State of Florida.
ERIN WOLFSON, Attorney at Law,
Assistant State Attorney,
Appearing on behalf of the State of Florida.
COREY STROLLA, Esquire,
Appearing on behalf of the Defendant.
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I N D E X
PAGE
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. STROLLA.................. 2507
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. COREY................. 2523
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P R O C E E D I N G S
Q And explain that to the jury, please, ma'am.
A Jordan Davis died over the Thanksgiving
weekend and our office was closed for Thursday and part
of Friday. We had an unusually busy weekend with many
cases coming in and also run on a somewhat shortened
staff, and so at the time that we received Jordan Davis
and I accepted his case I felt that it was in the best
interest to give the case as much attention as possible
doing the external examination, the x-rays and evidence
collection on the first day but then spending the time
needed on the second day to do the internal
examination.
Q And on what date did you conduct the internal
examination on Jordan Davis' body?
A That was on November 25th.
Q And did all of these things that we've
mentioned, your exam, photographs, the toxicology, does
all of that comprise the autopsy findings on which you
base your opinion to this jury?
A Yes, it does.
Q When Jordan Davis was brought in I believe
you said clothing was brought in with him, is that
correct?
A Yes.
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Q Let me show you state's 139 in evidence and,
Dr. Simons, was this clothing collected by members of
the Medical Examiner's Office and turned over to the
Jacksonville Sheriff's Office?
A Yes, it was.
Q And under your direction and prior to your
autopsy, was all of the clothing depicted here
separately packaged as evidence?
A It was removed from the tray, placed on this
clean sheet and then packaged separately as evidence.
Q All right. Let me then ask --
MS. COREY: Judge, I need a little bit of help
now, please.
BY MS. COREY:
Q I'm going to ask you, and refer to your
medical evidence receipt if you need to, about several
of the items of clothing that are depicted in state's
139.
MS. COREY: May I approach, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, ma'am.
BY MS. COREY:
Q Starting with --
MS. COREY: Mr. Guy, if you'll help.
BY MS. COREY:
Q Is there a hat depicted on this tray?
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A Yes, there is.
Q I'm going to have Mr. Guy show you what's
been marked into evidence -- let me get my notes,
please. Basically state's exhibit 171, is that the hat
that was turned into you for Jordan Davis?
A Yes, it is.
MS. COREY: Your Honor, may we display that to
the jury?
THE COURT: Yes, ma'am. Mr. Strolla,
obviously these are in. No objection.
MR. STROLLA: Thank you, Your Honor. Thank
you very much.
MS. COREY: We need to remove our sticky
notes, please, Mr. Guy. Judge, all they have on
them --
THE COURT: Can you -- I appreciate you
walking around with that microphone but if you can
speak into it that would be helpful, too.
MS. COREY: Yes, sir. I will do that.
THE COURT: Thank you.
BY MS. COREY:
Q Dr. Simons, referring to your receipt, was
Jordan Davis -- was there clothing with him, a black
tank top? I'm referring now specifically to state's
172.
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A Yes, there was a black tank top.
Q And did you look at that tank top and lay it
out to see if there was evidence of a gunshot through
the tank top?
A Yes, I did.
MS. COREY: And, Mr. Guy, if you could put
that on this table for me, state's 172, the black
tank top. May the witness step down from the
stand?
THE COURT: Yes, ma'am.
BY MS. COREY:
Q Dr. Simons --
THE COURT: And she may need a mic as well.
MS. COREY: She does need her own microphone,
please. Judge, can you inquire if the jury can see
this? This will turn but I know they can't see it
with me in the way.
THE COURT: Right. Ladies and gentlemen, can
you all see that? Assuming that neither Ms. Corey
nor the doctor step in front of it obviously,
you're okay to see it from your angle there,
everybody?
THE VENIREMEN: Yes.
MS. COREY: And we'll show it both ways, Your
Honor.
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THE COURT: All right.
BY MS. COREY:
Q Dr. Simons, can you test your microphone?
A Yes. Test, test.
Q It's not on. Would you test it again,
please?
A Test, test, test.
THE COURT: Do we need to check the volume on
that? Do we know which one that is? The wireless
I can change the volume.
MS. COREY: What do you need, Judge, the
number on it?
THE COURT: Yeah.
MS. COREY: We're going to try another one
that's working.
THE COURT: Okay.
BY MS. COREY:
Q Test your microphone.
A Test, test.
Q Did you turn it on?
THE COURT: Mr. Smith, where do we find the
number?
MR. SMITH: It's on.
MS. COREY: It's on.
BY MS. COREY:
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Q Okay. Try to talk as closely to that as you
can. For purposes -- for your purposes as a forensic
pathologist why would looking at the clothing to find
evidence of a gunshot hole? How would that help you?
A Well, we look at all the clothing to
correlate that with the wounds. First of all, it helps
us establish that there truly is a gunshot that
penetrated through clothing and then into the body, but
also sometimes it helps us establish position of the
body.
Q Let me ask you, ma'am, did you find evidence
of a gunshot hole in Jordan Davis's black tank top,
state's 172?
A Yes, I did.
Q And can you please show the jurors on which
side of the T-shirt you found evidence of a gunshot
wound?
A With this being the front and this being the
back on the right side.
Q All right.
MS. COREY: And for the record, Judge, the
front of the black T-shirt is facing the jurors as
Dr. Simons testifies.
BY MS. COREY:
Q Can you please turn this table to show the
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jurors that gunshot hole? Can you please point it out
for them?
A (Indicating.)
THE COURT: Let the record reflect she's
angled it to that right side and pointing for the
jurors.
BY MS. COREY:
Q Dr. Simons, is it common for Fire and Rescue
to have to cut clothing off of gunshot victims?
A Yes, it is, very common.
Q Tell the jury why they have to do that.
A In an emergent situation they are thinking
about saving the life and they are not thinking about
preserving evidence because they assume that they're
going to be able to save a life and that the evidence
will take care of itself and so they do what they need
to do to access the body to administer medical care.
Q And on many of these items of clothing did
you see evidence that these items had been cut off by
Fire and Rescue?
A Yes, they had.
MS. COREY: And, Mr. Guy, could we have
state's exhibit 173?
BY MS. COREY:
Q And again, Doctor, if you need to refer to
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the photograph or your notes, was there an olive
T-shirt also collected from Jordan Davis?
A Yes, there was.
Q Okay.
MS. COREY: We're going to try to have them
ready in a row, Judge, with your permission.
THE COURT: Sure.
MS. COREY: Have them ready to go. And I'll
need 174 obviously next, please.
BY MS. COREY:
Q Doctor, does this T-shirt in state's 173 show
evidence of blood from Jordan Davis?
A Yes, it does.
Q Okay. Can you show the jurors where the
blood is?
A The blood is on the right side and also on
the back, some blood on the left side coming around to
the front.
Q Is there evidence that Fire and Rescue cut
through this piece of clothing as well?
A Yes, and that has been reapproximated or sewn
back together.
Q Is there a gunshot hole in the same general
vicinity as there was for the black tank top that was
underneath this?
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A Yes, there is, on the right side.
Q And can you turn that exhibit and show that
to the jury as well?
A (Indicating.)
Q State's -- thank you, ma'am. Mr. Guy will
remove that for you. Can we pull out state's
exhibit 175, the boxers? Doctor, was there a pair of
Fruit of the Loom boxers that were taken from
Mr. Davis' tray when his body came into your Medical
Examiner's Office?
A Yes, there was.
Q All right. And, Doctor, these -- these
displays are three-dimensional, is that correct?
A Yes, they are.
Q And the clothing has been packaged where all
four sides of the clothing can be seen, is that
correct?
A That is correct.
Q In a few minutes we'll be asking you
questions about gunshot wounds to the -- basically to
the genital area or between the legs of Mr. Davis.
A Yes.
Q Did you examine these boxer shorts to see if
there was evidence of gunshots in that area?
A Yes, I did.
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2462
Q And did you find any evidence of gunshots?
A Yes, I did.
Q Can you show the jurors where you found them?
A So currently the jury is looking at the
front. I'm going to turn this around and you can see
the back or what we call the posterior aspect and at
the back on the seat is a hole.
Q Thank you, ma'am. State's exhibit 174, a
black jacket, please. And, Dr. Simons, was this black
jacket brought in with the body of Jordan Davis?
A Yes, it was.
Q Were you able to detect evidence of a gunshot
hole in this black jacket?
A Yes, I was.
Q And can you show the jurors where you found
evidence of that?
A Yes. So you're looking at the front and
again the hole is on the right side. If you look for a
small white hole over on the right, right there.
Q Doctor, let me ask you to assume the
following facts: Please assume that young Jordan Davis
was wearing a black tank top with an -- that -- the
black tank top with the olive T-shirt on top of that
with a black jacket on top of that. Based on your
autopsy and a finding of a gunshot wound to his right
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2463
side, do those bullet holes in these three items of
clothing match up and are they consistent with him
having been shot through the right side while wearing
this clothing?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q And then just a couple more pieces of
clothing and we'll let you resume the stand.
Basketball shorts, state's 176. And, Dr. Simons, in
reviewing this piece of clothing did you find any
evidence of a gunshot to this piece of clothing?
A Yes, I did.
Q And where was that located?
A So again the jury is looking at the front
right now and I'll turn this around. The gunshot
defect was in a similar location to the underwear and
that is on the back side, the posterior aspect near the
thigh, and it's a little difficult to see. It's a dark
hole right at about this level.
Q And, Dr. Simons, let me ask you to assume the
following facts: That Jordan Davis had on the Fruit of
the Loom boxers with these basketball shorts is what
we're calling them, the shorts with the W on them, on
top of that. Do those two bullet defects line up?
A They do seem consistent with each other,
consistent with a wound on the posterior right thigh.
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2464
Q And again except for Mr. Davis' hat do all of
-- do almost all of these clothing items bear evidence
that Fire and Rescue had to cut them off of his body --
A Yes.
Q -- to work on him? All right. And then one
last exhibit, state's 177, which would be the khaki
long pants with a belt. And, Dr. Simons, did these
pants, state's 177, come into your office with the body
of Jordan Davis?
A Yes, they did.
Q Is there significant cutting of this item of
clothing?
A Yes, there is.
Q And, of course, for purposes of this display
has it been sewn back?
A Yes, it has.
Q Were you able to find a specific bullet hole
or holes that could align with the two bullet holes to
his groin area?
A I was not able to find anything in this case.
Q Are there cuts to that area of his clothing?
A There are some defects that I do believe
correspond to being in the area where he had wounds
around the thighs.
Q Thank you, ma'am. Can you resume the stand
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2465
for this portion? Dr. Simons, in documenting the
injuries to the external portion of Jordan Davis' body
do you assign a number to each injury that you find?
A I assign an arbitrary number, a number that I
just -- just assign.
Q Okay. Does it in any way reflect the order
in which the shots penetrated or hit Jordan Davis's
body?
A No. It has no significance to the order in
which the shots were fired or in which they hit his
body.
Q How many separate gunshot wounds did you find
to Jordan Davis' body?
A Three gunshot wounds.
Q And based on your experience are you able to
determine whether a gunshot wound is a wound of entry
or exit?
A I am able to determine that based on
characteristics, and in this case there were
characteristics that were pretty -- pretty typical.
Q All right. I'm going to show you a series of
photographs now, Doctor. State's exhibit 140, is this
the unclothed body of Jordan Davis' for purposes of
showing his physical characteristics?
A Yes, it is, and also one of the benefits of
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2466
this photo setup is it allows me just to explain very
quickly what the anatomical position is because you
might be hearing that. It's how we document the height
of the wounds and the anatomical position is basically
on your back but with your hands out to the side, so
more or less what you're seeing is a representation of
the anatomical position.
Q All right. And just for purposes of further
explanation, Doctor, assume just for a moment that
Jordan Davis suffered a gunshot wound to the middle of
his chest, by anatomical position you mean the jury
would be able to see it as he lay there, is that
correct?
A Exactly. In the position laying on his back
with his arms at his side you would be able to see a
gunshot wound to the chest right here.
Q Okay. But that would not mean he was lying
down when the gunshot wound entered his chest, would
it?
A No. The problem with the anatomical position
is most people who are living and moving are very
rarely in that position and so it has little to do with
where they were at the time they might have been shot.
Q Are there other ways for you to try to
determine the position in which the body was when it
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2467
was shot?
A Yes. We combine both what we see at autopsy
and the path of injury in the body and also entrances
and either exits or the location of the bullet and then
we look and see where the bullets seemed to go at the
scene of the incident.
Q Yes, ma'am. Let me show you state's 141 in
evidence and in relation to Jordan Davis' upper body
does that show the penetrating gunshot wound that you
denoted as number one?
A Yes, it does.
Q Can you circle that on this photograph for
the jurors?
A Yes.
Q And what is the little white sticker
underneath that?
A That is an identification tag that we use so
that it identifies specifically that wound to this case
number, and when we do close-ups because you wouldn't
be able to see Jordan Davis' face you would know that
that wound would belong to this case.
Q Do you measure both the location of the wound
from the top of his head and from the midline, the
center of his body, as well as the size of the wound
itself?
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2468
A Yes, we do that.
Q Tell the jurors the measurement from the top
of Mr. Davis' head for this particular wound.
A The wound was 59 centimeters below the top of
the head and --
Q And -- I'm sorry. Go ahead. The midline.
A And it was 22 centimeters to the right of
midline.
Q What was the entrance size of the bullet that
entered Mr. Davis' body at this location?
A Are you asking about the abrasion size?
Q Yes, ma'am.
A Okay. So the overall wound was
one-and-five-tenths centimeters by one centimeter.
Q And what is the shape of the defect to his
body caused by the bullet?
A The shape of the defect is oval.
Q If the shape of the defect was round would
that be significant for your purposes in analyzing this
gunshot wound?
A Yes. A round --
Q Explain to the jury.
A A round defect would have a different
significance than an oval defect. There are two
possibilities for the oval defect in this case and I
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2469
think that they actually both come into play.
Oval means that instead of a bullet hitting
at a perpendicular angle and going straight in where
the abrasion around it would be completely circular and
uniform it hit at an angle or what we would call some
sort of tangent and caused an abrasion that was more
prominent on one end than it was on the other, so in
one sense it helps us determine an angle and in another
sense there are irregularities within the abrasion
itself.
And first let me explain what we call an
abrasion in forensic terms is really just a scrape and
so in this case it's the bullet scraping along the skin
and causing basically a scrape, but in this particular
case I believe that irregularities in the abrasion
itself and then the actual central defect that the
bullet poked through where it's kind of an irregular
shape might also indicate that the bullet was deformed
before it entered his body.
Q And tell the jurors the difference between a
penetrating wound by a gunshot and a perforating wound
by a gunshot.
A So we call a wound penetrating when the
bullet goes into the body but doesn't exit out of the
body and stays within the body and we call it
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2470
perforating when it goes in one end and comes out the
other and we don't have that bullet any more.
Q All right. And you did say this is a
penetrating wound, is that correct?
A This is a penetrating wound.
Q State's 142, if you will explain this to the
jury, please, ma'am?
A So this is a close-up of the entrance wound
that we were just looking at on the right side of the
abdomen. The irregular aspect that I was talking about
from the central defect kind of dips along like this
and irregularities to the abrasion itself are right
here, but otherwise it is the oval that I described.
Q Is this wound consistent with a medium to
large caliber bullet being fired at Mr. Davis?
A Yes, it is.
Q State's exhibit 143, did you apply a measure
to this wound?
A Yes, I did.
Q And can you tell the jury how -- what the
measurement type is at the top and along the side?
A Uh-huh. So we use what's called an ABFO
ruler and that's basically the The American Board of
Forensic Odontology. It's a uniform scale that can be
used in photographs and it allows anything in
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2471
centimeter increments to be measured from one photo to
the other where if you enlarge the centimeter to be the
same in each photo then you can make a direct
comparison of size from one photo to another.
Q Dr. Simons, do you have people who help you
with the autopsy do x-rays of bodies to look for
projectiles?
A Yes, they do.
Q And did -- was that done for Jordan Davis?
A Yes, it was.
Q Let me show you state's 144 in evidence and
ask you, Doctor, is this an x-ray of Jordan Davis's
upper chest?
A Yes, it is.
Q And does this show the projectile?
A Yes, it does.
Q Did you recover that projectile?
A I did.
Q And can you please, ma'am, circle the
projectile on this x-ray?
A Yes, I can. This is the projectile, and if
possible I would like to take a moment and use this
x-ray to also explain the path of travel and what
exactly the jury is looking at.
Q I would like for you to do that, and you may
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2472
draw on this by using your finger, and can you also
explain every portion of Jordan Davis' body that this
gunshot wound penetrated?
A Yes. I will do that. So what you're looking
at is an x-ray of Jordan Davis again in the anatomic
position, so this is the left side of his body and so
I've just drawn a line over his left arm. Now I'm
drawing a line over his right arm.
Q Can you just put an L and an R?
A Yes. So we have an L that we keep in the
x-ray, either an L or an R, and here we have an R. Now
what you're looking at here is the spinal column. Each
of these is a rib and these are the collarbones. This
is Jordan Davis' heart. In this area we have the left
lung and in this area we have the right lung.
What you're looking at here, everything that
I've drawn in this area is the chest cavity and at this
point we see a defining line and that is the border of
the liver and the diaphragm which separates the chest
cavity from the abdominal cavity, and so in this
instance we have the projectile as I've circled.
Q And, Doctor, if you're ready to do the path
I'm going to ask them to change the color to a
different color.
A Okay. Thank you.
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2473
MS. COREY: Okay. Could you just put another
color up there for the path of the bullet?
THE WITNESS: Okay. So -- are they ready?
THE COURT: Not yet. Just give them a second.
BY MS. COREY:
Q Doctor, touch the screen and make sure it's a
different color.
A Okay. So the injury actually begins slightly
below the border of this x-ray, so I'm going to start
just slightly below the border but I am down now on the
right side which would be -- if you took your left hand
and put it at the bottom corner of the x-ray that's
where I'm starting, so right about here is where the
bullet entered and it entered at the actual border of
the chest and abdomen and came in and perforated the
tenth rib which is the border.
On the inside of that rib we have the
diaphragm as I mentioned, and so the bullet then
proceeded to perforate the diaphragm before it entered
the liver, went through the liver, from the lower right
to the upper middle and then perforated the diagram
again.
Over here it perforated the right lung and
continued on behind the heart and in front of the
spinal column to perforate the aorta. Now the aorta is
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2474
the large artery that carries all the blood from the
heart to the body, continued past the aorta and
perforated the upper portion of the left lower lung
lobe, continued on and caused fractures in the left
fifth rib and a smaller fracture in the left sixth rib
and then exited through the ribs and came to rest in
the -- below the skin in between the ribs and the skin
near the left armpit.
Q And, Doctor, showing you now state's
exhibit 145, is that the bullet that you recovered from
the upper chest of Jordan Davis' body?
A Yes, it is.
Q And did you package that and designate it as
the left chest wall?
A Yes, I did.
Q And let me also show you state's 146. Tell
the jury why you took four photos of that particular
item.
A Well, we normally take four photos so we have
a reference to the degree of how deformed that bullet
was. In this case I called the bullet mildly to
moderately deformed because when you look at several
parts of the bullet they're actually really in very
good condition. Some of the aspects that can be used
are the sides which are down here and the base, but
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2475
then what we call the nose which is the tip of the
bullet is quite deformed.
Q All right.
A So we do this for reference.
Q And then, Doctor, showing you next state's
exhibit -- well, let me go back then. Hold on one
minute and I'm going to show you state's exhibit 190 in
evidence and ask you, ma'am, is this the projectile
that you recovered from the left chest of Jordan Davis?
MS. COREY: May she step down, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, ma'am.
BY MS. COREY:
Q Dr. Simons, if you would show this to the
jury, please. Are you checking your medical examiner
packaging?
A Well, I'm also just checking the --
THE COURT: Is that microphone on? Yes, it
is? Okay.
THE WITNESS: I'm also checking the pattern of
the flaring of those petals.
BY MS. COREY:
Q Yes, ma'am.
A So this is a secondary packaging. This is
not my packaging.
Q Yes, ma'am.
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2476
A Okay. And is my packaging inside?
Q Yes, ma'am. Your packaging should be there.
A Okay. So this is my signature and my
packaging.
Q And is that the exact packaging that's
depicted in the photos you just described to the jury?
A Yes, it is.
Q Okay.
A And although some of the petals look slightly
different to me but it might be part of the analysis.
Q Yes, ma'am. And if you would just display
that for the jury.
A So I looked at the bullet and then the
packaging.
Q And, Doctor, I think if you would talk
towards your microphone I think it would pick your
voice up and thank you.
MS. COREY: All right. May I display, Your
Honor, to the jury?
THE COURT: Yes, ma'am.
BY MS. COREY:
Q Dr. Simons, would this bullet going through
Jordan Davis' body at the angle that you've just
explained to this jury damaging all the internal
portions of his body that you've just explained have
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2477
been fatal all by itself to Jordan Davis?
A Yes, it would have been.
Q You can resume the stand. I have more
photographs to show you, please, ma'am.
And let me ask you for just a second to go on
to gunshot wound number two, what you refer to as a
penetrating gunshot wound of his left thigh.
A Yes.
Q All right. Let me show you state's 147 in
evidence. We need the blue marks removed, please.
Just hit the blue marks.
Thank you. And, Doctor, is this the groin
area of Jordan Davis?
A Yes, it is.
Q Okay. And what is the silver -- the reason
we're showing this to you first before the other photos
that show more of an area is there's a silver piece of
metal there, is that correct?
A That's correct.
Q And what is that silver piece of metal?
A That is a bullet fragment.
Q Okay. And did you remove that at some point?
A Yes. Prior to washing the body I did remove
and have that photographed.
Q Okay. Did you designate that fragment as
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2478
being fragment left groin skin as shown in state's 148?
A Yes.
Q And is that your packaging from the Medical
Examiner's Office?
A Yes, it is.
Q Then I'm going to show you and actually,
Doctor -- well, I can pull this out. Give me one
moment. I'll bring it up to you. State's exhibit 191,
is this that fragment from the left groin area of
Jordan Davis' body? You can examine the packaging.
A This is my packaging. I do believe it's
similar in size and not being able to look at all
angles I think it's consistent with.
Q Doctor, is it unusual for a small metal
fragment to just sit on top of an open wound like that?
A I wouldn't say that it's unusual. I've found
them in several gunshot wounds and sometimes they catch
on a piece of skin and that's how it happens and
sometimes they just tuck slightly underneath the skin.
Q Yes, ma'am. Let me ask you then after
removing that fragment, did you go on to analyze this
particular gunshot wound to Jordan Davis?
A Yes, I did.
Q Let me ask you to look at state's 149, and
can you orient the jury to this photo obviously for
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2479
dignity and, you know, for purposes of court we have
two things hiding part of Jordan's body. The lower
beige square what does that cover?
A So that's going to cover the posterior
portion towards the anus.
Q Okay. And the upper square does that cover
his --
A That covers part of his scrotum.
Q Part of his scrotum. So is Jordan Davis --
can you tell the jurors how they are looking at this
photo to understand these gunshot wounds?
A I can. I mean it might be easier if I were
to show you on myself if that's acceptable.
MS. COREY: Is that all right with the Court?
THE COURT: Yes, ma'am.
BY MS. COREY:
Q Okay. And you're light enough to sit on this
table so I'm going to ask you --
A That's so kind of you.
Q -- to do it from this table. We don't have a
chair with no arms.
A Okay. It's a somewhat difficult photo to
understand so I think it just becomes very simple if I
show you what you're looking at. If you are looking at
me it's the same as looking at the photo, and basically
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2480
if you're looking on the left side of the photo the
skin you're seeing comes from the inner or medial
portion of Jordan Davis' right thigh. Then what you
see where we pointed out the scrotum at the top or back
end is the perineum, and I'll explain that in a moment,
and then on your right side would be the inner or
medial aspect of Jordan Davis' left thigh.
Q All right. Thank you, ma'am. So as we look
at this photo does it show aspects of both the
penetrating gunshot wound of the left thigh and the
perforating gunshot wound of the right thigh?
A Yes. It actually shows both.
Q All right. Then I'd ask you to put an L and
an R for the left wound and the right wound and we will
come to the right wound later, so purposes of the next
few photographs in your testimony can the jury just
sort of hold off on those further two holes in
Mr. Davis' body?
A Yes, and before I forget I do want to explain
the term perineum. Basically that is a region of skin
that is between the genitals which are at the front of
the anterior aspect of the anus which is at the back of
the posterior aspect.
Q Right in the middle of the perineum you're
holding in your tweezers the little tag that has Mr.
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2481
Davis' M.E. number. What is that wound?
A So that wound is what I just call a defect.
I can't exactly call it a graze wound but it does not
have any depth to it. I cannot stick a probe in and
attach it to either the wound on the left side or the
wound on the right side. It basically is just a very
shallow defect of the skin.
Q If a man due to his -- this part of his
anatomy is in a seated position could that defect have
occurred as a result of a bullet?
A Yes, it could have.
Q And could it have occurred and look like this
because the skin folds in that area when -- in the
seated position?
A Yes. Some of these wounds are a little bit
more complicated and a little less typical because when
a bullet goes over or enters through folded skin,
especially thin skin, it has a different appearance
than, for example, the wound that we might see over the
leg or chest also.
Q On Jordan Davis' left thigh did you find a
gunshot wound of entry that is separate and apart from
that defect you just talked about?
A Yes, I did.
Q Can you circle the gunshot wound of entry?
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2482
A (Marks photograph.)
Q Can you tell the jurors how you know that is
the entry wound?
A So the small fragment that we just looked at
in a prior photo came from that and because that wound
was a defect that I could put a probe through and had a
track that progressed along to the outer aspect of the
left thigh, the lateral aspect of the left thigh, where
the bullet we know that that was the entrance wound.
Q And did you recover a bullet that was
connected to this injury?
A Yes, I did.
Q And, Doctor, what was the wound track inside
Jordan Davis' body? In which direction did that bullet
travel?
A So that bullet traveled from right to left,
and so if you think about it even though we're talking
about the left leg we're moving from the right side of
the left leg to the left side of the left leg.
Q Can you say from the inside of the left leg
towards the outside of the left leg, would that help
some?
A Yes. The inside of the left leg towards the
outside of the left leg, absolutely.
Q And then that bullet did not exit Jordan
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2483
Davis' body, is that correct?
A That's correct.
Q Did you use an x-ray to assist you in
locating that bullet?
A Yes, I did.
Q Let me show you state's exhibit -- I'm sorry.
State's exhibit 150 is just below that gunshot wound of
entry. What type of a wound is that in between the
measure and the M.E. number?
A And so I'll circle the wound, and again
that's an abrasion. It's a scrape of some sort. It
could have been from something directly hitting the
skin or hitting the clothing on top of the skin.
Q All right. State's exhibit 151, is that the
x-ray of Jordan Davis' right and left thighs?
A Yes, it is. So again this is taken in the
anatomic position. We have the left side and we have
the right side, and so over here we're looking at the
pelvic bone and then we have the right femur or
thighbone and we have the left femur and thighbone.
Now this is our area of scrotum and perineum and so our
entry is somewhere around here and we see a path to a
projectile here. The other value of this x-ray is to
show that there was not a fracture of the femur by the
bullet.
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2484
Q All right. And, Doctor, would this wound
alone have been fatal to Jordan Davis?
A I don't believe alone that this would have
been fatal, but I do believe that it was a debilitating
wound and contributed.
Q All right. And, Doctor, is it unusual to
find when a bullet is fired through a vehicle and into
a human being that the bullet can fragment so that you
find what you've described as the small metal piece of
the entry and a full jacket, a bullet jacket inside?
A Yes. And I think, you know, although
sometimes a bullet will actually break apart when it
goes through a vehicle, sometimes it doesn't and in
this particular case the amount of deformity of the
bullet was much more than it would have been had it
just gone through soft tissue, meaning muscle, nerves
and vessels of the thigh, so it's very consistent with
having hit something hard first.
Q Let me show you what's been marked into
evidence as state's 192 and ask you, Dr. Simons, is
that the bullet you recovered from Jordan Davis' thigh?
A Yes, it is.
Q All right. And could you please display that
to the jury?
A Yes. So again this is my packaging. My
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2485
packaging and here we have the bullet.
Q Thank you. You can just leave it on that
table for now, and I'll ask you to look at your monitor
when you resume the stand and looking now at state's
exhibit 152 -- thank you. Is that how you documented
the recovery of that particular bullet?
A Yes, it is.
Q And state's 153, is that four views of that
bullet?
A Yes, it is.
Q Is this bullet consistent with a medium to
large caliber bullet?
A Yes, it is.
Q And state's 154, does this depict the
packaging of both of those bullets so that there's no
confusion about which bullet came from which location
in Mr. Davis' body?
A Yes.
Q And, Doctor, the wound path here I believe
you said was right to left.
A That's correct.
Q On that thigh?
A On that thigh.
Q Okay. And was it in any front to back that
you could detect?
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A In this case there was a slight front to back
but I could not tell if it went up or down at all with
any level of certainty, and in those cases when I can't
tell with any level of certainty then I'd rather not
give an inaccurate measurement and so I say that it
can't be determined.
Q All right, Doctor. And then I'd like to go
ahead if it's all right with you and discuss the
gunshot wound number three since it's in the same area
and I'll have some questions on both. Is that all
right with you?
A Yes.
Q Now let me show you state's 155 in evidence
and can you explain this photograph to the jury?
A Yes. So this is a photo with Jordan Davis
now laying on his stomach and it gives a slightly
better view of the entrance wound of the path on the
right inner thigh, so what you're looking at here is
the entrance wound and you can just see a small amount
of the exit wound, and this was what we were looking at
in the previous photo when I showed you on myself and
we saw the inner aspect of Jordan Davis' right thigh.
Q Now when you say it entered and the next
wound that you can barely see that you've circled, that
is the actual exit, is that correct?
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2487
A I believe from this photo that that is part
of the exit.
Q And, Doctor, assuming that Jordan Davis was
clothed and that this gunshot occurred while he was
sitting in a car, perforated and exited his body when
his clothing was cut off, could the projectile have
fallen out at that point?
A Yes, it could have.
Q Okay. Let me ask you then, ma'am, what is
the -- what are the other two injuries that are seen on
the midportion of Jordan Davis' back thigh and up on
his back? You can go ahead and explain those to the
jury.
A So on the back portion of the right thigh it
is what I call a patterned abrasion, and when you look
at it face on it's actually in the shape of a rectangle
and when anything has a specific shape or pattern then
we try and identify it as such so that if anything is
ever brought up later we can determine whether or not
we have the object that caused that.
Q Can you directly link this particular injury
to a gunshot itself?
A I can't.
Q Okay. And what about the one on the small of
his back?
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A And so there's another abrasion, and this did
not have a pattern to it. It was just a small, dark
abrasion.
Q All right. Doctor, let me now take your
attention to state's 156 in evidence, and again the
beige colored square covers what portion of Mr. Davis'
body?
A So again we've covered the scrotum, and just
to orient you a little bit to the photo this is the
right thigh moving towards the feet. This is the left
thigh moving towards the feet. The scrotum would be
here. Bellybutton would be up here and so this is the
wound on the perineum that you saw.
Q And is that the wound that you said could be
part of folded skin or anything else, is that correct?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q There was no penetration into Jordan Davis'
body through that particular wound?
A No, and there was also no hemorrhage in
either the testicles or the scrotum.
Q All right. Then let me ask you to focus this
jury in the last -- I'm going to go back to the last
picture very quickly. And, Doctor, the oval defect
that's just above the Medical Examiner number, is that
a gunshot wound of entry for this third bullet?
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A Yes, it is.
Q And can you circle that in this photo as
well?
A (Marks photograph.) And if -- if it helps
and you want to go back there is a skin crease that is
also good for a frame of reference.
Q All right. Let's give the jury that frame of
reference. Can you show them the skin crease?
A (Marks photograph.)
Q So the skin crease and the oval defect is
what helps the jury determine that that is the entrance
wound you're referring to?
A Yes.
Q Okay. And going back to 156, can you show
the jurors that as well?
A (Marks photograph.) Okay. So this is the
skin fold and here is our entrance wound.
Q And that bullet perforated but did not
penetrate his body, is that correct?
A That's correct.
Q Show the jurors the exit.
A And this is the exit. (Marks photograph.)
Q And, Doctor, is it possible for a bullet to
just traverse that short of a portion of a human
being's body?
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2490
A Yes, it is.
Q And in this particular case did you measure
this wound of entry?
A I did.
Q And what was the measurement?
A Overall including the abrasion it was
one-and-five-tenths centimeters by one-and-one-tenth
centimeter.
Q And is that consistent with a medium to large
caliber bullet such as a nine-millimeter?
A Yes, it was.
Q And, Doctor, if Jordan Davis had been clothed
and that clothing had been cut off at the scene and a
projectile had fallen out of there, would that be
unusual as far as you can tell based on the type of
wound you see here?
A No.
Q Okay. Let me then ask you would this wound
alone have been fatal?
A No.
Q Okay. Doctor, let me show you state's 157 in
evidence and can you tell the jurors the purpose of
that photograph?
A That's just an additional close-up showing
more detail on that entrance wound. This is the margin
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2491
of abrasion. This is part of the defect of where the
bullet perforated through, and this is an edge where we
have the skin that the bullet went under to continue
its track.
Q Dr. Simons, again is it an oval shape because
of the way the bullet entered the body --
A Yes.
Q -- as opposed to a direct hit?
A Yes, it is.
Q And are you able to determine the order in
which these shots were fired into Mr. Davis' body?
A I'm not.
Q Is there a way -- and let me take you now to
state's 158. The purpose of the dowel is for what?
A That's just to show that the entrance wound
that we were just looking at and the exit wound that we
saw were in continuity but also that it's a very
shallow wound. You can see a little bit of the skin
lifted up by the probe. Didn't go deep at all.
Q All right. And I'm going to go ahead and
show you a couple more photographs before I ask the
remainder of the questions. This is a black and white
photo of one of Jordan Davis' organs, is that correct?
A Yes. This is a photograph in black and white
of Jordan Davis' liver.
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Q And why is this picture significant for your
explanations to the jury?
A Well, this picture is very significant
because there's a large wound track or very obvious
wound track through the liver that demonstrates that
angle that I showed you on the x-ray that went from the
lower right portion of the liver to the upper middle
portion of the liver and then continued on through the
lungs and the aorta, and so the injury that was caused
by the bullet is actually this kind of channel here,
this irregular channel.
You're looking at the back of the liver, and
so just to orient you this is the top part of the liver
closest to the head. This is the bottom part of the
liver closest to the feet. This is the right side of
the liver and this is the left side of the liver, and
this would be about where -- roughly where the spinal
column is, so you have the bullet as I showed you on
the x-ray that traveled sort of from the lower right
portion towards the upper middle portion, then
continued on to the right lung lobe, the aorta, et
cetera, and the benefit of having it so nicely shown in
one single organ is it allows us to help establish
Jordan Davis' position within the rear passenger com --
passenger compartment.
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2493
Q All right. And, Doctor, let me show you one
more photograph before I ask you about Jordan Davis'
position when he was shot. State's exhibit 160, is
that a photo of the black shirt laid out at your office
as well as a close-up of the bullet hole?
A Yes, it is.
Q Okay. And is that the black shirt you've
testified to here in court today?
A Yes, it is.
Q Doctor, before I go on to these other photos,
let me ask you, ma'am, if the position of Jordan Davis
at the time he sustained these three gunshot wounds
were at issue, would it aid you in your testimony to
the jury to use a bendable form with dowels to show all
three wounds in relation to each other?
A It would.
MS. COREY: Your Honor, at this time I'd ask
permission to use a bendable form that we use for
purposes of the doctor's demonstration?
THE COURT: Mr. Strolla.
MR. STROLLA: I don't have an objection at
this time. I'll just wait and see, Judge.
THE COURT: All right.
MS. COREY: I need just one second, Judge, to
bring it in.
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2494
THE COURT: Yes, ma'am.
BY MS. COREY:
Q Dr. Simons, I want you to presume that this
jury has seen photographs and heard testimonies about
the car and gunshot wounds that went through the door
where Jordan Davis was seated and I want you to further
assume that Jordan Davis was inside the door when the
gunshot wounds hit him.
So my question to you is would this bendable
form aid you in showing the possible position of Jordan
Davis' body when these gunshot wounds went through him?
A It would. I'm going to just sort of give a
disclaimer. I believe that I'm going to give you a
demonstration again with my own body because I'm more
limber than the mannequin and then we will also use the
mannequin because I don't want probes through my leg.
Q Yes, ma'am. That would be a good thing. So,
Doctor, if you'll come down to this table again and I
want you to start with gunshot wound number one which
was the penetrating gunshot wound to the chest.
A Okay.
MR. STROLLA: Judge, permission?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. STROLLA: Thank you, Your Honor.
THE COURT: And before -- are you all on the
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2495
corner over there where that table is placed, are
you going to be able to see the doctor if she sits
on it? You're okay? All right.
BY MS. COREY:
Q Dr. Simons, please.
A Okay. So I actually think I'd like to do --
if we're talking about wound number one I'd like to do
a demonstration for you standing really quickly. I
think it's the simplest way to do it given that the
track of the bullet that I feel went through the chest
was kind of horizontal, roughly parallel to the ground
or to the floor of the car. If you think about the
wound that entered on the right side of the abdomen if
you were to have a bullet going straight across the
body you could see from my arm that the bullet would
roughly land on the left side in a similar place that
it started on the right side.
But what we have instead is something that's
more like this angle, the bullet starting down at the
right and then up near the left armpit, and so in the
anatomic position the bullet would have either had to
come from down on the ground as a ricochet which
there's no evidence of that or from a shooter that was
coming from lower, but we know we're dealing with a
horizontal track of the bullet.
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2496
The way that that can happen is by motion of
the body, and if you notice now as I start to bend over
the track becomes horizontal and so that path in the
liver and the path of the injury helps us establish
that Jordan Davis was most likely bending over in a
position similar to this.
Q And when you say bending over, you are
leaning to your left, leaning -- go ahead. I'm sorry.
A Yes. Leaning to my left, possibly forward,
not necessarily forward, no.
Q And let me ask you this: In order to get the
wound track that you have testified to here in your
expertise in any other position the shooter would have
had to have been inside the car and below Mr. Davis'
body, is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q If he was sitting upright in the car?
A That is correct.
Q Okay. What about if he was standing outside
the car?
A If he was standing outside of the car then
that's when the other two potential possibilities such
as a ricochet or the shooter being below but, you know,
normally there's evidence of a ricochet. They have
what we would call a strike mark where the bullet hits
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2497
the ground or another object and then bounces back up,
but the bullet would have been in my opinion much more
deformed than it actually was.
Q And also, Doctor, can you enlighten this jury
as to whether or not that would be possible in light of
the other two wounds that are to the inside of Jordan
Davis' groin area?
A I cannot think of a way to reconcile those
and I also can't think of a way to reconcile them based
on the number of shots and things like that, so I
cannot think of a way.
Q Assuming that the shots were fired, boom,
boom, boom.
A Right. And, you know -- and so as I think of
these shots occurring this is one of the problems with
a mannequin and so I'm going to just explain this to
you and I have to stop myself from doing the same
thing. We like to -- want to find a position that
accounts for all three shots in one single position
but, you know, you think about the response time and
hearing a shot and then another shot and then another
shot.
You would start to respond and you would have
time to respond and move your body, maybe try and, you
know, make some sort of evasive maneuver, try to get
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2498
out of the car, try and move away from where you hear
the shots coming from.
And then so you've got a momentum and that's
propelling your body and then you've also got a point
at which you may have been struck and you might have
fallen over or tipped over or something like that, and
so you have to think of it in terms of possibly one
shot and then another shot and then another shot with
the body changing position.
Q All right. And, Doctor, can you demonstrate
on yourself those other two wounds?
A So -- and, you know, from what I can see, and
I'm going to show you again the wounds that we've
discussed, what we call wound number two coming in the
inner left thigh to the point where the bullet landed
somewhere along the outer left thigh and then we have
another shot that I did demonstrate here but that also
that appears to be like through here and here.
Q Okay.
A And so if you want to try and put those again
in a somewhat horizontal plane, kind of like what we
see when we look at the shots of the door with the
probes through them, you can think of the body now
either -- if I'm sitting in a passenger compartment, I
have a door here, I've got a seat behind me and I've
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2499
got a seat in front of me.
So I might try and flee by going like this
and now I've shifted my body forward and a little bit
down. It also starts to lift my thigh up and as two
bullets come in we can have a bullet coming in
horizontally and going across the left thigh and then
perhaps as I start to fall or tip over we have another
bullet that comes in and enters what we think of as
traditionally the back but in this case, you know, it's
just coming in and doing what we've already seen,
coming in and then heading horizontally.
Another possible position is like this, and
again, you know, there -- there's no way for us to know
exactly where he was, but you can see that there's a
range of motions that would probably account for at
some point in time all three of those bullets.
Q But, Dr. Simons, is it fair to say unless
Jordan Davis is in one of these positions you've just
demonstrated the shooter would have had to have been
below him in between his legs, is that correct?
A Yes, probably.
Q Okay. Let me ask you also, Dr. Simons, in
order for the jury to understand these three gunshots
in relation to each other would you now be able to use
the bendable form with the dowels?
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2500
A I will.
Q And obviously we're not going to ask you to
do anything with the arms and his arms are not quite
controllable, so if you would just focus on the three
areas of the gunshot wounds, and I want you to assume
for purposes of this demonstration that this is the
back seat passenger side of the vehicle in which Jordan
Davis was seated.
Assume further that the shooter is
approximately where I am located firing shots from this
distance or slightly further at Jordan Davis with a
nine-millimeter Taurus pistol. Can you show the jurors
how you can account for the path of those bullets
through his body starting with gunshot wound number
one?
MR. STROLLA: Your Honor, I'm going to object
that it's not to scale. I mean at this point, you
know, we have a Volkswagen to a Durango. Nothing
is to scale and I have Ms. Corey saying assume this
and assume that but it's not to scale. I
understood --
MS. COREY: It's a hypothetical.
MR. STROLLA: Sorry, Judge.
THE COURT: No, no. I was telling Ms. Corey
not to speak while you're speaking.
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2501
MS. COREY: Yes, sir.
MR. STROLLA: I understood the demonstration
by herself but at this point --
THE COURT: Objection, grounds, not to scale.
MR. STROLLA: Improper, not to scale, Judge.
MS. COREY: It's a hypothetical to help the
jury understand the doctor's testimony.
THE COURT: And I believe the jury understands
that that's what it is and obviously it's not
apples to apples but it's a demonstrative aid so
the objection is overruled.
BY MS. COREY:
Q Proceed, Dr. Simons.
A So to demonstrate the first wound which we
see with this pink probe -- now I would like to clarify
that the bullet did stop in the body so this is not
meant to imply that the bullet exited the body. It's
just really to show you that same track. So we start
at the lower right side at the abdomen chest border and
we head back up again somewhere near the axilla.
You can see if he was sitting upright in the
anatomic position you would have that upward direction,
but again as he might move down and away we see that
this starts to become horizontal and more closely
matches the path that we see of the probes through the
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2502
door.
Q All right. And, Doctor, if Jordan Davis were
sitting straight up based on your actual examination of
his body or the demonstration you're doing here, the
shooter would have had to be down and at this angle
firing up to achieve that angle through his body, is
that correct?
A That's my opinion.
Q Yes, ma'am. Go on to the other two wounds,
please.
A And I would again like to handle each of
these wounds separately.
Q Yes, ma'am.
A Because I don't believe that they could have
occurred at the same time, you know. In this case
we'll look at the leg. I do believe that in one of the
positions that I showed you I had my leg kind of
twisted and I was sort of trying to rise myself --
raise myself up out of the seat to move away, and again
as you see this path that goes more or less in this
direction as the body starts to tip you see how or as
the leg starts to tip you see how this path can be
coming in and become again roughly horizontal.
Q All right. And again, Doctor, if Jordan
Davis were standing up outside the car the shooter
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2503
would literally have to be lying on the ground shooting
up between his legs, is that correct?
A Well, I would say, yes, at that same angle.
I don't know that it was -- I think in the probes there
might have been a slight horizontal to downward angle.
Q Yes, ma'am.
A But not upward in the same way that the chest
shot was.
Q Yes, ma'am. And then the third wound?
A And then the third one -- let me get this to
come back around. As I -- as I mentioned to you
earlier again, you know, this is roughly in a
horizontal position to begin with and one of those
lower probes could have come right in initially either
with this leg up in the air or this leg down further
giving a clear shot through access to this probe.
Q All right. Thank you, Doctor. You can
resume the stand, please. Leave that there for just
one moment. And, Doctor, let me ask you this -- I'm
sorry. I'll wait till you get back up there. Would it
additionally aid you in your testimony to the jury to
be able to refer to the actual location of the gunshots
as they entered the vehicle where Jordan Davis was
sitting?
A I think that's helpful.
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2504
Q Okay. Let me show you then, ma'am, state's
exhibit 93 in evidence and ask you to orient yourself
to the back right passenger's seat.
A Yes, and so we're looking down on the car.
This would be the roof. This would be the hood. This
would be the front passenger door and the rear
passenger door.
Q All right. And assuming that those dowels
were placed through there where the bullets entered the
back passenger door, exited the interior of the back
passenger door and then entered Jordan Davis' body, are
those consistent with the three bullet wounds you've
described to Jordan Davis here today?
A Yes, ma'am.
Q Okay. Let me show you state's exhibit 97
which is a view of those same dowels from the interior
of the vehicle. Starting with the top dowel, is that
one consistent with the gunshot wound to the right side
of Jordan Davis that traversed his body all the way
through his aorta and landed in his chest?
A Yes, it is.
Q Okay. And the lower two shots, the lower
dowels, looks like there's one in the middle and one
below, but are those consistent with Jordan Davis'
position leaning towards the other side of the car and
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2505
those bullets entering at that height into the car and
into the interior of his legs in the groin area?
A Yes, they are. I'm not sure we have another
shot that shows --
Q We do.
A Okay.
Q Okay. You want me to go on to the other
shot?
A Yes. I think that would be helpful.
Q Let me take you then to state's 95. Does
this help you explain to the jury?
A It does. And so you can see this is a little
bit higher up and again, you know, you can sort of get
a rough estimate as to where on the seat he might have
been, what level his chest is, although we don't know
how far back he was seated. He might have been a
little bit forward, so I believe that this is
consistent with the shot that traversed the upper
portion of the body.
These I do believe are consistent with the
shots that entered the thighs. It would be hard for me
to know exactly which was which, and although from this
view it does look like there is very little clearance
sort of mentally we have to account for the fact that
he's going to have some weight and he's going to
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depress the seat a little bit and the fact that we also
don't know where along this probe his thigh was, you
know, so at what point the bullet actually entered his
body rather than continuing on.
Q All right. And, Doctor, is that first shot
as it appeared through Jordan Davis' body less
distorted overly than the other two shots?
A I'm not sure I understand the question.
Q Could the car have been moving once those
second two shots were fired or can you tell?
A I would not be able to tell.
Q Okay. But, Doctor, based on your autopsy
findings, your view both externally and internally of
these three gunshots to Jordan Davis, your
demonstration here today, are the dowels consistent
with those shots having been fired through that vehicle
and into Jordan Davis' body and ending in the positions
in which they did?
A Yes, in my opinion they are.
MS. COREY: May I have just a moment with
co-counsel?
THE COURT: Yes, ma'am.
MS. COREY: I have no further questions for
Dr. Simons, Judge.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Strolla. Ladies
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and gentlemen, do you want to stand for just one
second?
MR. STROLLA: Judge --
THE COURT: I would prefer to finish this
witness before we take our lunch break, so I
thought maybe you might want to stretch for a
second. If not, that's fine. If you do go right
ahead while Mr. Strolla gets his mic ready to go.
MR. STROLLA: Thank you, Judge.
THE COURT: And then what we'll do is
Mr. Strolla will cross examine the doctor and then
we'll take our lunch break but I'd just like to
conclude. All right. Mr. Strolla.
MR. STROLLA: Judge, may it please the Court?
Thank you.
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. STROLLA:
Q Dr. Simons, now Ms. Corey asked you a lot of
questions about these dowels and you did a
presentation, correct?
A That's correct.
Q How many times did Ms. Corey keep saying the
word assume this and assume that before she asked you a
question?
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A I did not count.
Q And a lot of your testimony is based on
assumptions that you don't truly know are fact, is that
correct?
A No. My testimony is based on looking at a
combination of the scene, meaning the vehicle, the
dowel that was placed, the external aspect of the
vehicle and the injuries that I found as well as the
projectile and what I saw the other projectiles looked
like.
Q But that's also on assumptions Ms. Corey
asked you to make, isn't that what we heard?
A I don't believe it's an assumption so I'm not
sure I follow your question.
Q Okay. Let me ask you this: How tall is
Jordan Davis?
A He was measured at 5 feet, 11 inches.
Q And almost at six feet tall if somebody is
now trying to get behind a door, could that trajectory
still hit him at the lower tenth rib and go to the
fifth or sixth rib?
A I would have to see the height of the Durango
and the height of the shots from the ground before I
could tell you that.
Q So you're saying if it's not to scale and you
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don't have it you can't create a conclusion, is that
correct?
A I'm saying I couldn't create a conclusion of
him standing upright, but I have not operated under the
conclusion that he was standing upright. I have been
given information that he was a right rear -- right
rear compartment passenger.
Q And who gave you that information?
A That is information that was provided by law
enforcement.
Q Okay. And you're going on what they told
you, is that correct?
A Not having been at the scene --
Q Yes, ma'am.
A -- and not having been the primary
investigator I do go by what I am told by law
enforcement, that is correct.
Q And in the medical field or anything have you
ever heard the terminology of garbage in and garage
out?
A Yes, I have heard that phrase.
Q And for the jury if you're getting bad facts
in you're going to give bad facts out. It's almost
like a mathematical equation, wouldn't you agree?
A No, because I do feel that although I don't
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necessarily go to the scene and don't necessarily have
all the information at -- at any one time if something
doesn't make sense to me then I will raise questions.
I won't just accept it as fact.
Q But let me ask you this: You do agree with
the premises in your field garbage in equals garbage
out if you're making a conclusion?
A I think that's true for anything where people
pass information.
Q And that would even include your own
testimony? You're a person, right?
A I'm not sure I follow your question.
MS. COREY: I object to the form of that
question being argumentative.
MR. STROLLA: Judge, if I --
THE COURT: Let's -- sustained. Maybe you can
try and find another way to ask it.
BY MR. STROLLA:
Q You just said, and correct me if I'm wrong,
it's -- that's with every person, garbage in could be
garbage out to form a conclusion, correct?
A In the general sense that is correct.
Q Okay. How about in the medical sense? If a
medical doctor is given bad information could they make
bad decisions as a doctor?
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A Well, I think given -- given that we are
thinking people that we hope to find a consistency and
again raise questions and raise issues and so, you
know, if you're asking in respect to whether he could
have been standing up as opposed to being seated in the
vehicle, again if you are going to try and pose to me
that he was present me with some information and I will
look at that information and tell you whether or not I
feel that it's plausible. Right now I do feel that the
information I was presented with is plausible.
Q But you were never given information by the
state or law enforcement that he was outside the
vehicle, is that true?
A I was never given any information that would
allow me to make a determination that he was outside.
Q So the simple answer to my question was, yes,
you've never been given that information?
A Well, that's correct.
Q Okay. Thank you. Now if somebody lifts
their leg up, and I'm -- I'm a -- I'm a man --
MR. STROLLA: Judge, you mind if I move?
THE COURT: Go right ahead.
MR. STROLLA: Thank you, Judge.
BY MR. STROLLA:
Q And again if I move -- now, Dr. Simmons, if I
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-- if I lift my right leg up like this am I almost
looking like I'm in a seated anatomical position, other
than my left leg? My right leg would be up. My body's
up. Kind of looks like I'm seated if you kind of put a
chair underneath my tush, right?
A Sure.
Q Right? Would you have a clear shot of my
scrotum from where you are? Would a bullet be able to
travel underneath my right thigh into my left leg where
wound number two is?
A Not necessarily being able to see exactly
anatomically where your scrotum is it looks to me as if
your thigh would be in the way.
Q Okay.
A Your thigh would be in the way.
Q Okay.
A Your leg would have to be higher.
Q Correct. So if I'm even leaning down then
jumping into an SUV you have a clear shot to my left
leg, don't you?
A I do, but what is the height? And as I said,
you know, without the height of those vehicles --
Q I understand that but my question was -- and
do you want me to repeat it? Do you have a clear shot
of my scrotum into my left thigh, yes or no?
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A I don't think that a yes or no answer is that
simple because you're asking me to eliminate other
factors that went into the decision making process in
this case, and that is a deformed bullet that in my
opinion is too deformed to have only gone through thigh
as opposed to having hit a hard object first such as
going through the door.
Q Well, that's what I'm saying. So let's say
I'm behind a door and it goes through a door. I've got
a door. Let's say you're there. You with me? Let's
assume I have a door open right here between us.
A Uh-huh.
Q And now I'm jumping into the back seat. Is
it going to go through the door, ma'am?
A If it goes through the door and the door is
open you would have to be in a drastically different
position than what you're in.
Q How about leaning down, leg up, jumping in,
is that possible?
A Okay. So if you think about the angle at
which a door would be open and then you think about the
angle that the thigh needs to be at, I would venture to
guess that the position that you're in is not going to
allow the bullet to go through the door and then turn
back around and hit your thigh going this way, so from
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what you're showing me I don't see that a path through
an open door could have led to -- to a path into the
body. I don't see it.
Q But again you were never given the factors of
Jordan Davis being almost six feet tall, the height of
the Durango next to the height of someone sitting in a
Volkswagen Jetta, is that correct? Were you ever given
those variables?
A No, I was not given those variables.
Q So you can't form a conclusion today, even
though you're saying no, you can't medically say no or
scientifically because you don't have the variables,
correct?
A Well, what I would need would be -- again I
believe that the variables that I was given fit --
Q By law enforcement?
A Fit with each other.
Q Okay.
A So that's the first step.
Q Okay.
A And after the second step is that you are
going to pose another scenario then we could start over
and we could pose those with the facts.
Q And law enforcement never gave you another
scenario, did they?
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2515
A No, they did not.
Q The State Attorney's Office didn't give you
another scenario, did they?
A No, they did not.
Q And working with the medical examiners you
work with the State Attorney's Office very closely, do
you not?
A Not specifically, no. I work on each case
equally with the defense and the State Attorney, so the
defense usually calls for the deposition and then the
state follows through ultimately with a pretrial and so
we have the same exposure.
Q How many times have you testified for the
State Attorney's Office as a medical examiner or an
assistant medical examiner? I apologize.
A That's by formality. So I testify as to who
calls me and so I am testifying for the decedent. I am
testifying for the facts and the examination that I've
done but I don't testify for a side.
THE COURT: Mr. Strolla --
MR. STROLLA: Judge, I'm going to object as
nonresponsive, Your Honor. I'm going to ask that
will not respond. I asked her how many times she
testified for the state.
THE COURT: Okay. I got it. All right. If
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you can just limit yourself to his question then,
Doctor.
BY MR. STROLLA:
Q How many times have you testified and been
called by the State Attorney's Office?
A Three times, the three times that I've
testified.
Q And how many times have you been called by
defense?
A I have been in three trials so that would be
none.
Q Zero, is that correct?
A Yes. That would be correct.
Q Okay. Okay. And now you no longer work --
you resigned from the Medical Examiner's Office, is
that correct?
A Yes, I have.
Q Okay. Now do you have your report in front
of you?
A Yes, I do.
Q Do you have anything from the gas
chromatograph mass spectrometer to show the toxicology
of Jordan Davis?
A I'm not a toxicologist. I don't keep that
data.
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2517
Q Ma'am --
MR. STROLLA: Judge, again, nonresponsive.
BY MR. STROLLA:
Q I asked you do you have any toxicology from
-- from a mass --
THE COURT: Hang on. Hang on.
BY MR. STROLLA:
Q Mass spectrometer -- gas chromatograph
spectrometer?
THE COURT: Hang on. Hang on. I don't know
what that was.
MS. COREY: Judge, it was Siri and unless you
know it you can't disable it.
THE COURT: We're up and out.
MS. COREY: Yes, sir.
BY MR. STROLLA:
Q Do you have anything --
A No.
Q -- of the GC-MS?
A Those do not routinely go into our charts.
Q Okay.
A I do not have that here.
Q And that would be through the toxicologist?
A Yes, it would.
Q And do you have any GC-MS from the Shands
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Hospital reports from the medical side of it, meaning
--
A I'm not aware that Shands performed any
toxicological testing.
Q So the answer is, no, you have nothing from
Shands about toxicology either, correct?
A Correct.
Q Okay. Now on your report you indicate that
there was no alcohol and no prescription medication or
controlled substances, is that correct?
A I indicate in my report --
Q If you look on page six --
A -- the results of the toxicology testing and
those results were that none was detected.
Q Do you have a copy of the request for
chemical examination?
A Yes, I do.
Q Okay. And in that without reading because
it's not in evidence, isn't it true that the tox labs
from the toxicologist are actually handwritten in by
somebody?
A Yes, that is true.
Q And then you take that handwriting and type
it into your report on page six, correct?
A Either myself or one of the administrative
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assistants, that's correct, somebody does type that in.
Q Can you go to page six of your examination
report, please?
A Yes.
Q Did you type that in, none detected, or did
somebody type that in for you?
A I proofread everything. I do not know
sitting here on the stand who typed that in.
Q And the way you proofread it is you look at
somebody else's handwritten notes saying none detected,
is that true?
A That is correct.
Q So you don't verify it. You just proofread
it, is that true?
A I look at the report results that are
submitted to me on the request for a chemical
examination as they are submitted to me by the
toxicologist and I take those as fact.
Q Okay. And that's the handwritten notes?
A And that is the handwritten notes.
Q And again you don't do any verification of
what the toxicologist did. That's not your job,
correct?
A That is not my job.
Q Now you saw some abrasions, you testified to
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some abrasions and you have no idea how they got there,
correct?
A That is correct.
Q And in your medical opinion and expertise you
have no idea how they got there, isn't that true?
A I do have no idea how those abrasions might
have occurred.
Q So again the answer to my question is, yes,
that's true?
A Yes, that is true.
Q Okay. And you don't know how long they've be
there, isn't that true?
A That is true.
Q They may not even be relevant whatsoever to
this case, isn't that true?
A I do consider them not relevant to this case
in that they are not contributory to the lethal injury.
Q So again the answer to my question was, yes,
that's true, is that accurate?
A Yes.
Q Now in your report Ms. Corey went over the
trajectory of the first two wound tracks but not the
third, the one that is the perforating that goes in and
out. That wound track is back to front, left to right
and slightly upward, is that correct?
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A That's correct.
Q And that would be completely different from
wound number two that's coming in from right to left
into that left thigh that gets embedded and that one is
slightly front to back, right to left with no definite
upward or downward deviation, isn't that true?
A That is true.
Q And did you ever get a copy of a primary
source report from those toxicology results or just the
handwritten notes in your file?
A It is not my custom to perform a service that
I am not certified in. I do not interpret the raw
data. That is the toxicologist's job and it is not our
office policy to have the doctors interpret raw data
because it is not our job.
Q I didn't ask you to interpret it, ma'am. My
question was: Did you ever get a copy of the primary
source report showing the toxicology results?
A If you're asking about the raw data, no.
Q Not even the raw data. Are you familiar with
the gas chromatograph mass spectrometer?
A Yes, I am.
Q And it prints out a piece of paper with the
results, right? It does have data on it but it does
give you results you can read as a medical doctor?
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A Okay.
Q Is that true, you're a medical doctor, yes,
ma'am?
A I am a medical doctor.
Q Okay. And you went through -- you went
through medical school. I'm sure you had to do some
form of toxicology training.
A Yes.
Q Okay. Would you be able to look at the
results of that GC-MS and see negative for drugs,
negative for alcohol?
A Sir, normally when we, for example, send out
for toxicology testing or send out for anything we get
a finalized report by the specialist we consulted. We
don't ask for their raw data or their notes.
Q I didn't ask that. I asked can you and do
you have the ability to read it if you had it?
A I will repeat my initial answer. I am not
certified in toxicology.
MS. COREY: Excuse me. Objection.
THE COURT: Hang on. Hang on.
MS. COREY: Dr. Simons, excuse me. Objection.
Asked and answered.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. STROLLA: Nothing further, Judge.
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MS. COREY: Very briefly, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Yes, ma'am.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. COREY:
Q Dr. Simons, were there any signs of alcohol
or drugs detected in Jordan Davis' body?
A The toxicology results indicate that there
were none.
Q Okay. Had there been any alcohol or drugs in
Jordan Davis' body, would he still have died from the
gunshot wounds?
A Yes, he would have.
Q And how quickly would that chest wound have
disabled Jordan Davis?
A I believe that it would have been fatal in a
matter of minutes.
Q Okay. Would he have been able to stand up
after sustaining a gunshot that tore through his aorta?
A Well, there is a possibility. There have
been reported cases that he would have been able to
move.
Q Okay. And, Doctor, is there anything that
you've looked at based on the actual photographs from
the crime scene, the dowel picture you saw and your own
autopsy that would lead you to believe that Jordan
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Davis was in any position other than seated in the back
seat of that vehicle leaning towards the other side of
the car?
A There's nothing that I saw.
MS. COREY: Thank you. No further questions,
Your Honor.
THE COURT: May she be excused?
MS. COREY: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Mr. Strolla?
MR. STROLLA: So excused, Judge, yes, Your
Honor.
THE COURT: Thank you, Doctor. You're
excused.
(Witness excused.)
MS. COREY: State of Florida announces rest.
THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury,
the State of Florida has now rested their case and
so this comes at a very opportune time because I
have to deal with some matters outside your
presence with them and so we can use the lunch hour
-- actually I'm going to have to give you a little
bit longer lunch hour so they'll have a little bit
of time to get a bite and then we'll come back and
see where we go.
So it's five minutes after 12:00. I would
