Differences between Enduro and Supermotard motorbikes€¦ · Web viewGuillermo Linares Pérez,...

Differences between Enduro and Supermotard motorbikes

Motorbikes: Design and Secrets

Guillermo Linares Pérez, Edgar Gago Carrillo27-10-2018

Differences between Enduro and Supermotard motorbikesGuillermo Linares Pérez, Edgar Gago Carrillo

TABLE OF CONTENTS

List of figures.................................................................................................................................2

List of tables...................................................................................................................................3

1 Introduction............................................................................................................................4

1.1 Enduro............................................................................................................................4

1.2 Supermotard o Supermoto..............................................................................................4

2 Differences between motorbikes............................................................................................5

2.1 Chassis............................................................................................................................5

2.1.1 Frame and Subframe..............................................................................................5

2.1.2 Swingarm...............................................................................................................5

2.1.3 Wheels....................................................................................................................6

2.1.4 Tyres.......................................................................................................................7

2.1.5 Brakes.....................................................................................................................9

2.1.6 Fork......................................................................................................................11

2.1.7 Shock....................................................................................................................11

2.2 Engine...........................................................................................................................12

2.2.1 2T vs 4T................................................................................................................12

2.2.2 Transmission........................................................................................................13

2.2.3 Compression ratio................................................................................................14

2.3 Geometry......................................................................................................................14

3 Bibliography.........................................................................¡Error! Marcador no definido.

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LIST OF FIGURES

Figure 1. Aluminium perimetral frame..........................................................................................5Figure 2. Chrome-molybdenum steel double cradle frame............................................................5Figure 3.Traditional double-sided swingarm, Husqvarna FE 250.................................................6Figure 4. Single-sided swingarm from the TM SMM 450 fi.........................................................6Figure 5. 16.5 x 3.5” FW and 17x 5.0“ RW...................................................................................7Figure 6. 21x1.6'’ FW and 18x2.15'’ RW......................................................................................7Figure 7. Extreme enduro tyre after a race.....................................................................................7Figure 8. GOLDENTYRE GT216X 140/80/18 HARD ENDURO TYRE....................................8Figure 9. DUNLOP MX3S 120/90/18 MOTOCROSS STAGE TYRE.........................................8Figure 10.Racing rain tires.............................................................................................................8Figure 11.Racing slick tires............................................................................................................8Figure 12. KTM 320 mm wave front floating rotor.......................................................................9Figure 13.KTM 260 mm wave front fixed rotor............................................................................9Figure 14.Top of the line front Beringer 4 piston fixed radial caliper.........................................10Figure 15.Rear Brembo floating axial caliper..............................................................................10Figure 16.Top of the line Beringer radial master cylinder...........................................................10Figure 17.Brembo axial master cylinder......................................................................................10Figure 18.2015 Showa SFF-Air TAC fork, on the top damping bottle and on the bottom air bottle.............................................................................................................................................11Figure 19.KTM PDS rear shock...................................................................................................12Figure 20. Honda CRF 450X geometry.......................................................................................15Figure 21. Husqvarna FS 450 geometry.......................................................................................15

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LIST OF TABLES

Table 1.Rim size.............................................................................................................................6Table 2. Rotor size..........................................................................................................................9Table 3.Caliper comparison.........................................................................................................10Table 4. Engine allowance by category........................................................................................13Table 5.Gear ratio.........................................................................................................................13Table 6.Difference between supermoto and enduro motorbikes geometry..................................14

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1 INTRODUCTION To understand how and Enduro and a Supermotard motorbike are shaped and their technical specifications first an introduction to both disciplines is now presented.

1.1 ENDUROEnduro is a form of motorcycle sport run on off-road courses. The main type of enduro event (FIM World Enduro Championship format) excluding FIM Superenduro is a time-card enduro where a number of stages are raced against the clock; therefore, bikers do not race again each other at the same time in a circuit.

Nowadays we could divide enduro into three different disciplines, the traditional one to which the FIM World Enduro Championship is run, Hard Enduro and FIM Superenduro.

Traditional Enduro: this format consists in several rounds which include, in increasing order of more technical terrain and obstacles, a motocross test, an enduro test and an extreme test.

Hard Enduro: it is probably the most technical discipline; almost every rider that competes here has a strong trials background.

FIM Superenduro: this discipline is probably quite influenced by the AMA American Supercross; it consists on a race inside stadiums or arenas, recreating obstacles such as rocks, boulders and logs.

1.2 SUPERMOTARD O SUPERMOTOSupermotard is a form of motorcycle racing that combines three disciplines: flat track, motocross and road racing in one single race, by alternating between three courses: the hard packed dirt of flat track, the jumps and obstacles of motocross, and the tarmac of road racing.

Initially supermotard races where a part of a TV program called Wide World Sports created by Gavin Trippe in 1979. It was like an all-star game where only the best riders from three separated genres of motorcycles could temporarily leave their normal race class and compete in order to see which one was the best of all races. Nowadays supermoto is a distinct motorcycle discipline.

Supermoto races are held in small superbike paved circuits or even in small kart circuits. Usually supermoto circuits have a road-race track rate of 50-75 %, whereas the other 25-50 % is usually hard packed dirt. Dirt sections feature motocross style obstacles like bermed corners and jumps.

There are a many of local and state championships but some of the most prestigious ones are:

FIM Supermoto World Champion. FIM Supermoto European Championship AMA Supermoto Championship.

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2 DIFFERENCES BETWEEN MOTORBIKES

Taking into account the environment and the conditions that have just been mentioned, the justification of the characteristics and components used in each bike should be more evident.

Also before entering the subject, it should be remarked that the vast majority of the supermotard bikes found either in the American or European championship have always been motocross/enduro motorbikes transformations or designs based on those. Therefore no substantially big differences are expected.

2.1 CHASSIS

2.1.1 Frame and SubframeBoth Enduro and Supermotard share the same frame configurations, being the aluminium perimetral frame (Japanese: Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawasaki; European: TM) and the chrome-molybdenum steel double cradle frame (European: KTM, Husqvarna, Sherco, Gas Gas, Beta) are the most widely used. These type of frames are simple, strong and cheap. They also offer good engine protection.

Regarding the subframe, almost every manufacturer is using Aluminium but recently Husqvarna has opted for composite materials and carbon fibre (30% carbon fibre, 70% polyamide) so as to save weight.

2.1.2 SwingarmAgain in this aspect there is no much of a difference between them, the trend in both bikes is to use double-sided aluminium swingarm.

Nevertheless, the Italian company TM has manufactured some supermotard models with a single-sided aluminium swingarm.

It should be also mentioned that all motocross and enduro companies use linkage while KTM attaches the shock directly to the swing-arm in the enduro models with their PDS or Progressive Damping System. This proportions better effective ground clearance, because when going over big logs or obstacles there is no risk of damaging the linkage.

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Figure 2. Chrome-molybdenum steel double cradle frame

Figure 1. Aluminium perimetral frame


2.1.3Wheels

When thinking about differences between these two similar type of bikes the first think that comes to our mind are the wheels. Both enduro and supermotard bikes are commonly equipped with spokes wheels, nevertheless some manufactured supermotard models more oriented for street use (for instance TM SM models) are equipped with regular alloy wheels.

The reason for this is that spoke wheels are less brittle than alloy wheels so they are more suitable when withstanding big bumps. Also spoke wheels can be fixed without needing to replace the whole thing, for example if a spoke is bended it can be replaced; whereas damage in alloy wheels, as they tend to be more brittle and flex less, is usually non-fixable.

Following, a more detailed comparison between the two disciplines in terms of the wheels is presented.

2.1.3.1 Rim sizeIn the following table their configuration is shown:

Supermotard EnduroFront wheel diameter (inches 16,5 or 17 21Back wheel diameter (inches) 17 18Front wheel with (inches) 3,5 1,6Back wheel with (inches) 4,25-5 2,15

Table 1.Rim size

It can be seen that the tendency is that supemotard wheels tend to be smaller in diameter so as to get better turn-in capabilities and wider which allows them to mount wider tyres and tough more traction. On the other hand, enduro wheels are bigger in diameter and less wide because dirt often serves quite less traction when comparing to tarmac.

2.1.3.2 HubWhen converting an enduro or motocross bike into supermotard, a variety of spokes (regular ones, reinforced) and rims coming from different manufacturers can be used but in order to prevent compatibility issues it is strongly recommended to maintain the original hub or one which has been specifically designed for the bike. If this is not respected, the rear sprocket could be misaligned with respect to the front sprocket and the use of spacers will be needed, among other issues.

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Figure 3.Traditional double-sided swingarm, Husqvarna FE 250Figure 4. Single-sided swingarm from the TM SMM 450 fi


2.1.4 TyresTyres are critical elements for both type bikes, as they proportion traction and help the suspension absorb impacts.

Beginning with enduro bikes, they always use knobby tyres. Nowadays there is a wide range of knob distributions and compounds. Each of those is designed to get the maximum traction in specific surfaces and operating conditions. Dirt tyres can be classified in many ways, but when talking about enduro, we can roughly classify them into two main groups:

Technical and slippery terrain tyres: this is the type of tyre which is usually selected for Hard Enduro races and the extreme test of the World Enduro Championship mentioned earlier. Their main characteristics is that knobbies are often more far-off distributed and they are also tinier when compared to a more motocross style knobby. Moreover when referring to compound, they use a soft one what increases overall traction but also makes knobbies less durable (at the end of the race around 70% of the knobbies can be ripped-off). This type of tyre is usually mounted with a mousse or tubeless system to be able to run very low air pressure so as to increase traction while avoiding the risk of getting punctures.

Motocross stage tyres: this sort of tyre is selected for faster and less technical sections such as the motocross test of the World Enduro Championship. The knobbies are often bigger and have a closer distribution when compared to the previous ones. This tyre is often mounted with a regular tube system because very low air pressure is no longer required; nevertheless tubeless systems are also used so as to again prevent punctures.

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Figure 7. Extreme enduro tyre after a race


When referring to supermotard bikes first we have to remember that races are usually held in tracks where between 50-75% surface is covered with tarmac and the rest with dirt. Because of the more percentage of tarmac present in the circuit on-road tyres are chosen, despite that their performance in dirt is quite questionable.

Depending on the meteorological conditions and track surface a variety of compound can be used.

Racing Slick tyres: these tyres are mainly characterized because of their smooth tread that allows for larger contact patch to the road. Since there is no tread pattern they do not deform much under load which allows them to be constructed of softer compounds without excessive overheating and blistering (tyre suffers an irreversible deformation). When accumulating enough heat they become quite sticky and thus give much greater adhesion to the road surface, but they also have a lower tread-wear rating; meaning that they wear out much more quickly than the harder rubber tyres used for driving on the streets. There is a large variety of slick tyres in the market, varying mainly in the compound used (soft, medium and hard).

Racing rain tyres: one of the main drawbacks that slick tyres have is their performance on wet surfaces. As they do not have tread, water gets trapped inside the tyre causing aquaplaning. To solve this, there is also rain racing tyres available in the market which lack of a smooth tread and are made out of even softer compounds than slick tyres to ensure grip in adverse conditions.

2.1.5 BrakesBrakes are the other big difference when commuting to supermotard. They are usually bigger because of the different needs supermoto and enduro championships have. On behalf that, in supermotard races higher top speed are reached and also overall traction is also higher, the latter allows applying more breaking power to the front wheel before it looks. In other words, if very powerful braking system where used in

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Figure 10.Racing slick tires

Figure 11.Racing rain tires


enduro, where the lack of traction is something quite common, the rider would experience much more wheel-looking while breaking and thus seriously increasing the risk of falling.

For comparing this section, it has been divided into rotor, caliper and master cylinder.

2.1.5.1 RotorBeginning with enduro motorbikes, in recent years every factory has been using wave fixed rotors which have better brake-lever effort (applying the same effort on the lever traduces in more bite of the brake caliper) and better heat dissipation.

Supermotard motorbikes are often equipped with wave rotors but also with regular ones; in this case they are bigger and floating instead of fixed, this allows the rotor to have some free play and therefore when braking they can adapt better to the brake pads, therefore having slightly more contact area.

In the following table typical values for rotor diameters is shown:

Supermotard EnduroFront rotor (mm) 310-320 260-270Back rotor (mm) 220-245 220-245

Table 2. Rotor size

2.1.5.2 CaliperIn one hand enduro models use in both wheels floating calipers mounted axially. When referring to floating it is said to be that the pistons, which are placed in one of the caliper’s sides, push only one of the two existing brake pads against the disk (the other pad remains always in the same position). When saying that it is mounted axially it means that the securing bolts are perpendicular to the brake rotor, which does not offer the most rigid setup neither the best caliper to rotor alignment and therefore the best pad to disk contact.

On the other hand, supermotard motorbikes tend to use in the front wheel fixed calipers mounted radially (note that sometimes are also mounted axially) and in the rear wheel floating calipers mounted axially (less braking power is needed). When referring to fixed means that piston brakes are mounted in either side of the caliper. This allows pushing both two brake pads against the rotor. And radially mounted is related to the fact that the securing bolts are parallel to the brake disk; this ensures a more rigid and better rotor-caliper alignment setup.

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Figure 12. KTM 320 mm wave front floating rotor

Figure 13.KTM 260 mm wave front fixed rotor


Following a comparative table between enduro and supermotard calipers is presented.

Type Mounting Number of pistonsFront caliper Supermotard Fixed Radial-Axial 4-6

Enduro Floating Axial 2Rear caliper Supermotard Floating Axial 1

Enduro Floating Axial 1Table 3.Caliper comparison

2.1.5.3 Master cylinderEnduro bikes are equipped with standard axial master cylinders. This implies that the force exerted by the brake lever has to be approximately 90 degrees redirected by the lever pivot. Whereas supermoto bikes are equipped with bigger radial master cylinders, in which the brake lever acts directly to the master cylinder. The increase in master cylinder size, results in an overall higher braking power and the fact that the lever acts directly to the master cylinder results in a better lever-feel.

2.1.6 ForkRoughly speaking, twenty years ago both motocross and enduro manufacturers replaced conventional spring forks with inverted ones (which diameter varies typically among 48-50 mm). This type of forks is much more rigid, flexes less and helps reducing suspended mass. The explanation for this is quite logical, as we invert a conventional fork the wider section which was previously facing down is now meeting the triple clamps, and therefore this heavily solicited area has been reinforced.

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Figure 14.Top of the line front Beringer 4 piston fixed radial caliper

Figure 16.Brembo axial master cylinderFigure 17.Top of the line Beringer radial master cylinder

Figure 15.Rear Brembo floating axial caliper


Also, from 2014 until now air forks have been progressively introduced in motocross bikes. This fork’s principle is to substitute the conventional fork springs with air. To achieve this, one bottle of the fork contains all the damping elements and the other contains, among other valves and components, air. As the fork is compressed so does the air and this increase in pressure causes the fork to extend, as a regular spring would.

Moreover, having all the damping components in only one of the bottles implies that a single bottle has to exert twice the amount of damping force than a regular would. These air forks are proven to be lighter (no springs required) and apparently more adjustable, as varying the air pressure could simulate changing the spring preload or even replacing it.

In practice, these forks have been found to be more difficult to tune-up and the overall feeling of riders is that they are quite stiffer than spring ones; which has its pros and cons.

As stated earlier enduro bikes are equipped with spring inverted forks; on the other hand supermotard bikes are often equipped with revalved and resprunged motocross forks or with air forks. Inverted spring forks used in Enduro are considerable much softer than supermotard ones because of the higher requirements to absorb big impacts. This implies softer springs and a specific internal valving both highly dependent on the rider weight and preferences.

When talking about fork travel, a rough estimate for enduro would be something around 300 mm, the tendency for supermotard bikes is to have the same (when using modified enduro/motocross forks) or slightly less travel (aftermarket supermotard forks or specific supermotard manufactured bikes), something around 280 mm (Husqvarna FS 450).

2.1.7 ShockIn the swingarm section the KTM PDS damping system used in enduro range, which consists in linkage removal, was introduced. Though it was not mentioned that not having linkage makes it more difficult to make the shock travel progressive (a first soft travel and a progressive stiffening to prevent bottoming out). So they have apparently solved this by using a progressive spring and two pistons.

Leaving behind the KTM PDS, the main difference between these two disciplines is probably the setup, as the components itself do not differ much. Enduro shocks are quite softer than supermoto ones; involving softer springs and different valving setting but again this is highly dependent on the weight and rider’s preference.

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Figure 18.2015 Showa SFF-Air TAC fork, on the top damping bottle and on the bottom air bottle.


Besides travel, enduro shocks are around 310-330 mm and supermotard specific build ones around 270 mm (Husqvarna FS 450).

2.2 ENGINEEither supermotard or enduro motorbikes are always equipped with an internal combustion single cylinder engine. The capacity and stroke cycle are often imposed by the championship regulation.

2.2.1 2T vs 4TRoughly speaking, fifteen years ago two stroke engines had a much more noticeable presence both in enduro and supermotard disciplines, but the more and more exigent anti-pollution regulations have substantially affected these singular engines as they are not much environmentally friendly.

In more detail, the abandonment of 2T engines for on-road street use has substantially lowered the amount of income that was destined to their development. In this scenario all Japanese manufacturers have left the 2T engine development far apart (note that Yamaha keeps producing 2T motocross bikes but with no signs of engine improvements), in this scenario the little remaining development in this field has been left to European manufacturers; being KTM the one who leads the way. An example of this is their introduction in 2018 of fuel injection (TPI, Transfer Injection Port) in 2T enduro engines; which has significantly lowered emissions and therefore postpones their jubilation some years more.

Beginning with enduro, depending on the discipline and the regulation of the competition some engines are more suitable than others.

In Hard Enduro races, with very technical terrain the most used configuration are 300 cc 2T as they are very powerful, light and more nimble than the equivalent 4T.

On the other hand in more traditional shaped enduro races such as the World Enduro Championship is divided into 4 main categories:

Category Engines allowedJunior 125 cc 2T

E1 100-250 cc 2T or 175-250 cc 4TE2 250-450 cc 4TE3 251-500 cc 2T or 451-650 cc 4T

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Figure 19.KTM PDS rear shock


Table 4. Engine allowance by category

In junior categories small 125 cc 2T engines are the way to go as the equivalent 4T are far in terms of power. In Enduro E1 the most chosen bike has typically been the 250 cc 4T but in the 2018 season the upper limitation for two strokes was raised going from 125 to 250 cc. In E2 the most used bikes are both the 300 and the 350 cc 4T because of having the benefits of both smaller and bigger bikes. Finally in E3 the most common bikes are 300 cc 2T and 500 cc 4T.

On the other hand, in supermotard racing the two stroke motor is practically abandoned; as it is only used in some promotional and junior cups. In both the European and World championships mentioned earlier the main category is S1; in this category the engines allowed are 175-250 cc 2T or 290-450 cc 4T being the vast majority 450 cc 4T. Nevertheless less restrictive categories are also available, such as the AMA Supermoto Unlimited.

2.2.2 TransmissionEnduro engines are usually fitted with six speed wide-ratio transmission whereas supermotard are closer to motocross bikes in that way, having usually a four to five speed close-ratio transmission. The difference between wide-ratio and close-ratio is in the difference in speed ratio between different gears, being more pronounced in enduro bikes so as to operate in a wider range of speeds.

Referring also to the gears, supermotard tends to have taller gears so as to achieve higher top speeds. In the following table a comparison between the gears of two Husqvarna motorbikes: an enduro 450 cc 4T and a supemotard 450 cc 4T will be done.

Gear Gear ratio Husqvarna FE 450 4T (Enduro)

Gear ratio Husqvarna FS 450 4T (Supermoto)

1st 14:36 16:322nd 17:32 18:303rd 19:28 20:284th 22:26 22:265th 23:24 24:246th 26:21 -

Table 5.Gear ratio

Regarding sprockets supermotard tend to use bigger front sprockets and smaller rear sprockets than their enduro equivalent so as to again, achieve higher top speeds.

Also supermotard bikes are often equipped with slipper clutches so as to prevent back wheel locking when heavily braking and downshifting and quick shifters so as to upshift without needing to blip the throttle or using the clutch lever and thus reducing shifting and acceleration times.

2.2.3 Compression ratioIn the supermotard disciplines, engines are more squeezed, therefore they are often equipped with high compression heads and pistons so as to get more maximum power. Whereas in enduro the overall power is also quite important but durability and low end power play also their role.

We can appreciate these differences for instance, when comparing the two Husqvarna motorbikes mentioned earlier (450 cc 4T) having a compression ratio of 11,8:1 in the enduro model and a compression ratio of 12,75:1 in the supermoto model.

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2.3 GEOMETRYIn order to evaluate the differences in geometry, the following table shows a list of the geometry parameters between and the Honda CRF450X and the Husqvarna FS450.

Motorbike part Honda CRF450X (ENDURO)

Husqvarna SM FS450 (SUPERMOTO)

Front suspension 49mm inverted, 305 mm of travel

48mm inverted, 280 mm of travel

Rear suspension 312 mm of travel 266 mm of travel Wheelbase 1494 mm 1475 mmCaster angle 28º 06’ 26º 30’Seat Height 950 mm 890 mmGround clearance 322,6 mm 290 mmOffset 22 mm 16 mm

Table 6.Difference between supermoto and enduro motorbikes geometry.

The geometry changes are probably justified by the requirements that each motorbike has. In the next pictures we can see the different parameters shown before on the table.

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Figure 20. Honda CRF 450X geometry


Beginning with ground clearance, the enduro motorbike has slightly more, around 3 cm. This is mainly due to the use of bigger wheels and longer suspension travels. The same reasons would also apply to seat height, as the Honda has a 6 cm taller seat. Following with enduro seat height, it is interesting to mention that this aspect strongly conditions the rider height; in fact not many short riders are found in this dirt discipline as they tend to suffer more when reaching the ground with their boots.

When referring to wheelbase the Husqvarna is shorter, that is probably due to the difference in caster or rake angle. In other words, as the Honda has a slightly greater rake angle (1º 30’ more degrees) it is also longer.

Moreover, the stepper rake angles like the one found in the Husqvarna make the bike turn faster but worsen straight-line stability.

Finally, the greater offset of the Honda enduro bike proportions less trail ant therefore less stability but lighter and faster steering.

All in all those are just some indicative numbers as in the real scenario all the parameters affect each other at the same time; but it should be noticed that both enduro and supermotard manufacturers try to find and equilibrium between stability and turning performance. For instance the steeper rake angle of the Husqvarna (which makes the bike turn faster) is more or less compensated by the less offset on the triple clamps (which increases trail and therefore overall stability). Although, this equilibrium is probably more oriented towards turning performance in supermotard bikes.

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Figure 21. Husqvarna FS 450 geometry


3 BIBLIOGRAFÍA

[1] ‘Wave brakes’, 2018. Available : https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/new-wave-brakes

[2] ‘Triple clamp offset’, 2018.Available: https://motocrossactionmag.com/ten-things-about-triple-clamp-offset/

[3] ‘Husqvara FS450’, 2018. [Online]. Available: https://www.motofichas.com/fotografias/moto/3051-03-husqvarna-fs-450-supermoto-2016-frame-jpg.

[4] ‘Husqvarna Fe250’. [Online]. Available: http://www.promotos.es/tienda/motos-enduro/husqvarna-fe-250/.

[5] ‘SSM530 Fi’. [Online]. Available: http://tmracingmotorcycles.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/SMM530Fi.jpg.

[6] ‘Off-road tyres’, 2018.Available: https://www.metzeler.com/en-ww/products/tyres/off-road

[7] ‘Honda crf450’, 2018. [Online]. Available: https://www.cycleworld.com/2012/05/29/2013-honda-crf450r-first-ride#page-34.

[8] ‘Racing slicks’, 2018. Available: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racing_slick

[9] ‘Racing tyres’, 2018. Available: https://www.metzeler.com/en-ww/products/tyres/racing-sport

[10] ‘Bike setup’, 2018. [Online]. Available: http://utahsupermoto.com/beginners-guide/bike-setup/.

[11] ‘Turning mx bikes’, 2018. Available: https://motocrossactionmag.com/mx-education-why-bikes-turn-why-they-dont-what-you-can-do-about-it/

[12] ‘Honda crf450 overview’, 2018. Available: https://www.honda.es/motorcycles/range/off-road/crf450r/overview.html

[13] ‘Husqvarna fs450 overview’, 2018. Available: https://www.husqvarna-motorcycles.com/gb/supermoto/fs-450/

[14] ‘Supermoto wheels’, 2018. [Online]. Available: http://www.motostrano.com/Excel-Talon-Supermoto-Wheels-p/kit-whls.htm.

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Differences between Enduro and Supermotard motorbikes€¦ · Web viewGuillermo Linares Pérez,...

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Transcript of Differences between Enduro and Supermotard motorbikes€¦ · Web viewGuillermo Linares Pérez,...