Deposition of Shem Jessop

7/27/2019 Deposition of Shem Jessop

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EXHIBIT 1

Shem Jessop

Deposition Excerpts

Case 3:12-cv-08123-HRH Document 185-1 Filed 09/05/13 of 56



IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

DISTRICT OF ARIZONA

United States of America, ))

Plaintiff, ))

vs. ) No. 3:12-CV-8123-HRH)

Town of Colorado City, )Arizona, et al, )

)Defendants. )

________________________________)

THE DEPOSITION OF SHEM JESSOP

(Videotaped)

*** CONFIDENTIAL DRAFT ***

Colorado City, ArizonaJuly 24, 201310:00 a.m.

(Copy)PREPARED FOR: REPORTED BY:

Az Litigation Support, LLCMarty Herder, CCR

MATTHEW DONNELLY, ESQ. Certified Court ReporterCCR No. 50162

CONFIDENTIAL DRAFT - SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDERwww.CourtReportersAz.com (480)481-0649




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2 I N D E X

3 Examination By: Page:

4 Mr. Donnelly 5

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7 E X H I B I T S

8 No. 1 Dispatch Form with telephone numbers 15

9 No. 2 Complaint re fiduciary of trust 87

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12 * * * * *

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3

1 THE DEPOSITION OF SHEM JESSOP,

2 Taken at 10:00 a.m., on July 24, 2013, at the El Capitan

3 School Tech Building, 255 N. Cottonwood Street, Colorado

4 City, Arizona, before Marty Herder, Certified Court

5 Reporter, pursuant to the Rules of Civil Procedure.

6

7 COUNSEL APPEARING:

8 For the Plaintiffs:

9 UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

CIVIL RIGHTS DIVISION10 By: Matthew J. Donnelly, Esq.

Sean R. Keveney, Esq.11 950 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW

Washington, D.C. 2053012

For the Defendant Town of Colorado City:13

GRAIF, BARRETT & MATURA, P.C.14 BY: Jeffrey C. Matura

1850 North Central Avenue, Suite 50015 Phoenix, Arizona 85004

16 For the Defendants City of Hildale, Hildale-Colorado CityUtilities, Twin City Water Authority and Twin City Power:

17STIRBA, P.C.

18 BY: R. Blake Hamilton, Esq.215 S. State Street, Suite 750

19 Salt Lake City, Utah 84110

20

21 Also present:

22 Tisha Hillman, Paralegal, DOJElizabeth Turrin, Intern, DOJ

23 Philip BarlowDavid Darger

24

25





4

1Colorado City, Arizona

2 July 24, 201310:00 a.m.

3

4

5 PROCEEDINGS

6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. My name is Brent

7 Jensen, certified legal video specialist with K-Video

8 Productions.

9 Our court reporter is Marty Herder, representing

10 Arizona litigation Support. Their address is One East

11 Washington Street in Phoenix, Arizona.

12 We are at 255 North Cottonwood Street in Colorado

13 City, Arizona, to take the deposition of Shem Jessop on

14 behalf of the plaintiffs in the United States District Court

15 of Arizona case of United States of America versus Town of

16 Colorado City Arizona, et al.

17 Case number 3:12-CV-08123-HRH.

18 The date is July 24th, 2013, and the time is

19 approximately 9:05 a.m.

20 The attorneys will now introduce themselves,

21 plaintiffs first, please.

22 MR. DONNELLY: Matt Donnelly for the United

23 States.

24 MR. MATURA: Jeff Matura for Colorado City.

25 MR. HAMILTON: Blake Hamilton on behalf of





5

1 Hildale, Twin City Water Authority and Twin City Power.

2 MR. DONNELLY: And Sean Keveney is also here. He

3 just stepped out.

4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you. Please swear in the

5 witness.

6

7 SHEM JESSOP,

8 called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn,

9 was examined and testified as follows:

10

11 (Whereupon, Philip Barlow entered the room.)

12 MR. HAMILTON: Matt, just so it's on the record,

13 Philip Barlow just entered the room as the representative of

14 Hildale. He's the mayor.

15 MR. DONNELLY: Sure.

16

17 E X A M I N A T I O N

18

19 BY MR. DONNELLY:

20 Q. Okay. Mr. Jessop, as you probably just heard, and

21 we met before, my name is Matt Donnelly. I'm an attorney

22 for the United States.

23 You just took an oath. You understand that that

24 oath is the same oath that you would take if you appeared in

25 court. There are penalties for, you know, perjury penalty





47

1 Q. Can you do that for us quickly?

2 MR. HAMILTON: Objection; form.

3 THE WITNESS: Like I said, I had a GPS for doing

4 the streets.

5 He's a couple streets east of the dairy and north

6 of Arizona Avenue.

7 BY MR. DONNELLY:

8 Q. All right.

9 I want to ask you some questions about the FLDS.

10 Are you a member of the FLDS?

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. Can you tell me why you don't know?

13 A. I'd rather not get into it.

14 Q. I'm going to -- you're going to have to answer my

15 questions on this, unfortunately.

16 A. What do you want?

17 Q. I want to know whether or not you're a member of

18 the FLDS?


20 Asked and answered.

21 THE WITNESS: I haven't seen anything stating I

22 was or I wasn't. I don't know.

23 BY MR. DONNELLY:

24 Q. You don't know in your mind?

25 MR. HAMILTON: Same objection; form.





48

1 THE WITNESS: Did you -- again, do you want me to

2 guess?

3 BY MR. DONNELLY:

4 Q. Okay. Have you ever been a member of the FLDS?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you knew for sure at one point in your life?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When was that?

9 A. Couple years ago.

10 Q. And we're using couple in the literal sense

11 meaning two?

12 A. Yeah.

13 Q. So, and have you been, with the exception of the

14 last two years where we'll talk about in a second, you have

15 been an FLDS member all your life up until then --

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. -- about two years ago?

18 A. Well, now you sound like I'm not.

19 I don't know.

20 Q. I'm about to ask you, what happened two years ago,

21 approximately?

22 A. You mean why would I answer like that?

23 Q. Why are you all of a sudden, or within the last

24 two years, are you unsure?

25 A. How do I answer that?





49

1 Do we need to have a --

2 MR. HAMILTON: Let's take a -- let's take a break.

3 MR. DONNELLY: That's fine. It's about an hour

4 away. I mean, we're about an hour in. That sounds fine.

5 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are off the record at 9:54.

6 (Brief recess taken.)

7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the record at 10:04.

8 BY MR. DONNELLY:

9 Q. Just to orient you again, when we broke I was

10 asking you about whether you were a FLDS member, and why

11 within the last two years you are not sure whether or not

12 you are. Then we took a break so you could talk to your

13 counsel.

14 And so I'll ask you the question again.

15 Within the last two years, what happened that

16 makes it that you're unsure whether or not you were a FLDS

17 member?

18 MR. HAMILTON: During the break I talked with the

19 witness, and it's our position he has a First Amendment

20 Right not to talk about this.

21 You've got your baseline information of his

22 religious background.

23 He was FLDS. You know he was FLDS.

24 You know now he's not sure if he's FLDS.

25 And so he has a First Amendment Right.





50

1 And pursuant to the Guthrie case, I've informed

2 him that he doesn't have to answer this if he doesn't want

3 to. That's our position.

4 But it's up to him.

5 But I'm not instructing him not to answer, but

6 that's our position.

7 MR. DONNELLY: Okay. So you're not instructing

8 him. I'm sorry, there's going to be a double negative.

9 You're not telling him not to answer; is that

10 correct?

11 MR. HAMILTON: That's correct. But I believe he

12 does have a First Amendment Right and doesn't need to answer

13 this question if he doesn't desire to.

14 BY MR. DONNELLY:

15 Q. Have you told him that we can call the judge and

16 the judge can --

17 MR. HAMILTON: We can do that, if that's what you

18 want to do.

19 MR. DONNELLY: I'm -- I'm asking whether or not

20 you've made him aware of that?

21 MR. HAMILTON: I have not made him aware of that,

22 but we can call the judge if he chooses not to answer it.

23 MR. DONNELLY: Okay.

24 MR. HAMILTON: I don't know if he's going to

25 answer it or not. I just know he's uncomfortable talking





51

1 about -- more about his religion.

2 MR. DONNELLY: I understand that.

3 Have you talked to him about the protective order?

4 MR. HAMILTON: I talked to him about the

5 protective order.

6 MR. DONNELLY: I'm just trying to make sure he's

7 informed on what's the issue here.

8 BY MR. DONNELLY:

9 Q. All right. So I'm going to ask you some questions

10 again.

11 What happened in the last two years that made it

12 that you're no longer sure that you're an FLDS member?

13 A. I don't want to answer the question under my First

14 Amendment Rights.

15 Q. So you're refusing to answer?

16 A. (Witness nods head.)

17 Q. But there was something that happened?

18 A. I'm not answering the question under my First

19 Amendment Rights.

20 Q. Did you suspect that I was going to ask you this

21 question in your deposition?

22 A. No, I didn't.

23 Q. You didn't think it would come up?

24 A. I imagined you were going to ask me something. To

25 ask me the question exactly like that, no I didn't.





52

1 Q. Did you talk with anybody in the government about

2 how to answer that question, of whether or not you're an

3 FLDS member?

4 MR. HAMILTON: Objection; form. I'll remind you

5 if you talked to me about it, then even though I'm the City

6 Attorney, you're not to divulge any client -- any

7 attorney-client privileged information.

8 THE WITNESS: Right.

9 No.

10 BY MR. DONNELLY:

11 Q. You didn't talk with anybody in the City

12 governments about how to answer whether or not you were an

13 FLDS member?

14 A. You're talking about Colorado City and Hildale?

15 Q. Yes.

16 A. What government are we talking about?

17 Q. I'm talking about both.

18 A. Because there's lots of governments.

19 Q. Right. I'm sorry.

20 In the Twin City governments --

21 A. No.

22 Q. -- you didn't talk to any --

23 A. Nope.

24 Q. -- employees?

25 What about any FLDS members about it?





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1 A. Nope.

2 Q. Now, you just refused to answer whether or not, or

3 the reason why you're not unsure whether or not you're

4 currently an FLDS member, but you're familiar with their

5 religion, correct?


7 BY MR. DONNELLY:

8 Q. You were a member for many many years --

9 A. Yeah.

10 Q. -- up until possibly two years ago.

11 Is one of the religious tenants to always tell the

12 truth?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Even to someone like me?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What if it would be detrimental to an FLDS church

17 member, do you still tell the truth then?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Let me give you an example.

20 What if there was an FLDS leader that government

21 authorities were looking for, and let's say I was that

22 government authority, would you tell the truth if you knew

23 where that person was?


25 THE WITNESS: Yes.





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1 BY MR. DONNELLY:

2 Q. You would?

3 Has that ever happened?

4 A. Has what ever happened?

5 Q. Have you ever been asked by anyone where an FLDS

6 leader is?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Okay. Was it Warren Jeffs?

9 A. This goes back to -- can we take a break for just

10 a second, because I -- I need to talk to him for just a

11 second.

12 MR. HAMILTON: Well, what I would tell you is

13 right now, you are not to divulge anything that you may have

14 testified to pursuant to the Grand Jury.

15 THE WITNESS: Okay.

16 MR. HAMILTON: Your Grand Jury testimony is

17 completely off limits. You can't divulge anything that you

18 were asked during that time, or else you open yourself up to

19 criminal liability. Okay?


21 MR. HAMILTON: So you can answer the question with

22 that caveat. I mean, if you were asked any other time

23 outside of the Grand Jury, you can answer that question.

24 THE WITNESS: I've had different police officers,

25 sheriff's officers ask me that question. And I didn't know,





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1 A. No.

2 Q. Never called him on a cell phone?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Never sent or received any letters from him?

5 A. Nope.

6 Q. Sure?


8 THE WITNESS: I don't recall sending anything.

9 BY MR. DONNELLY:

10 Q. I mean, you said no before, right?

11 A. Yeah.

12 Q. Have you ever -- have you ever sent letters --

13 excuse me -- have you ever sent letters to Warren Jeffs on

14 behalf of your kids?


16 THE WITNESS: I don't recall of it. It's

17 possible. I don't recall sending him any letters.

18 BY MR. DONNELLY:

19 Q. Okay.

20 With the exception of Warren Jeffs, who else is a

21 leader currently of the FLDS church?

22 MR. HAMILTON: Objection; foundation.

23 THE WITNESS: Don't know another leader.

24 BY MR. DONNELLY:

25 Q. Is there an FLDS Bishop?





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2 MR. DONNELLY: How is there a foundational

3 question there?

4 MR. HAMILTON: How is there a foundation question?

5 MR. DONNELLY: Right.

6 MR. HAMILTON: He said he doesn't know if he's

7 FLDS right now.

8 You just asked him if there's a FLDS Bishop

9 currently.

10 MR. DONNELLY: Okay. You can answer the question.

11 MR. HAMILTON: If you know.

12 THE WITNESS: I don't know for sure.

13 BY MR. DONNELLY:

14 Q. You don't know if there's currently a Bishop?

15 A. I don't.

16 Q. Was there a Bishop approximately two years ago

17 when you were sure you were an FLDS member?

18 A. Yeah, there was.

19 Q. Okay. Who was that?

20 A. I'd have to go back and look. There's been

21 several that I've -- the time line. I'm not 100 percent

22 sure who it was. I don't know.

23 Q. Can you give me the last four Bishops over the

24 last few years?






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1 THE WITNESS: Do I need -- can I assert my First

2 Amendment Rights and just not answer it?

3 MR. HAMILTON: If you wanted to do so, you can.

4 THE WITNESS: I do.

5 BY MR. DONNELLY:

6 Q. Is Lyle Jeffs the current Bishop?

7 A. I don't know.


9 BY MR. DONNELLY:

10 Q. Was Lyle Jeffs the Bishop two to three years ago

11 when you were sure you were an FLDS member?

12 A. There was a point when he was.

13 Q. Okay.

14 I apologize if I don't remember, but did you

15 refuse to answer whether or not you actually want to be an

16 FLDS member right now?


18 THE WITNESS: I didn't answer.

19 BY MR. DONNELLY:

20 Q. You didn't answer it. Okay.

21 And you said you hadn't communicated with Warren

22 Jeffs since he's been in prison?

23 MR. HAMILTON: Objection.

24 THE WITNESS: I don't recall it.

25





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1 BY MR. DONNELLY:

2 Q. Was William E. Jessop a Bishop at any point, to

3 your knowledge?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. You don't know?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. You're saying under oath you don't know whether or

8 not William E. Timpson or William E. Jessop was a Bishop?

9 A. I think he might have been.

10 Q. You're not sure?

11 A. Not 100 percent, no.

12 Q. Okay.

13 What about Fred Jessop, was he ever an FLDS

14 Jessop?

15 A. Yes, he was.

16 Q. You're 100 percent sure on that?

17 A. Yes, I am.

18 Q. Do you know approximately when that was?

19 A. I don't keep dates straight.

20 I don't know. For a long time.

21 Q. Do you know how long ago it was?

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. Five years, ten years, 15 years?


25 THE WITNESS: Yeah.





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1 BY MR. DONNELLY:

2 Q. Which one?

3 A. I -- at least 15.

4 Q. And whether or not you are an FLDS member or not,

5 are you currently wanting to follow Warren Jeffs and his

6 directives?


8 THE WITNESS: Again, I'm going to stand on the

9 First Amendment and not answer.

10 MR. DONNELLY: Take a, take like a side bar here

11 for a second about what I want to do, if that's alright.

12 MR. HAMILTON: Yeah.



15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the record at 10:27.

16 BY MR. DONNELLY:

17 Q. All right. Starting up again. I believe before

18 we took one of our many breaks, you said you did not know

19 whether or not -- you did not know whether William Timpson

20 Jessop was an FLDS Bishop; is that right?

21 A. I was trying to recall, but I don't remember

22 exactly how you worded the question. Will you ask it again?

23 Q. Sure. Let me ask first, do you know when -- do

24 you know who William Timpson Jessop is? When I say that

25 name, do you know who that is?





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1 A. If you ask who is William Timpson, yes.

2 Q. Okay.

3 A. Go ahead.

4 Q. Okay.

5 William E. Timpson?

6 A. Because I thought you were talking about William.

7 Willy Jessop.

8 Q. No, not church security Willy.

9 I'm talking about William E. Timpson, and I think

10 he took the last name Jessop at some point.

11 A. Okay.

12 Q. Do you know who that is?

13 A. Yeah.

14 Q. Was he ever a Bishop for the FLDS?

15 A. I think he was for a little bit.

16 Q. You're not sure?

17 A. I -- as far as I know, he could have been.

18 Q. I'm asking you yes or no are you sure?

19 A. I think he was.

20 Q. Okay.

21 But you still are making it sound like you are not

22 100 percent sure with the word think.


24 THE WITNESS: I could be told you were a Bishop.

25 Would that make -- make it so or not?





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1 I wasn't there.

2 BY MR. DONNELLY:

3 Q. Sitting here today, you can't say 100 percent

4 whether or not William E. Timpson Jessop was a FLDS Bishop?


6 THE WITNESS: I know he helped Uncle Fred.

7 BY MR. DONNELLY:

8 Q. That's not an answer to my question.

9 Was he a Bishop or not?


11 THE WITNESS: I think he was.

12 BY MR. DONNELLY:

13 Q. But you're not 100 percent sure?

14 A. I'm not going to say I'm 100 percent sure.

15 Q. Why not? What's the hesitancy?


17 THE WITNESS: He may not have been.

18 BY MR. DONNELLY:

19 Q. Okay.

20 Is it possible that Warren Jeffs wasn't the leader

21 of the FLDS church?


23 THE WITNESS: I think he probably is.

24 BY MR. DONNELLY:

25 Q. Are you unsure whether he is, the way you're





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1 unsure about William Timpson Jessop being an FLDS Bishop?


3 BY MR. DONNELLY:

4 Q. What's your answer?

5 A. I think he is.

6 Q. You think he is, you're not 100 percent sure?

7 A. I'm not going to answer 100 percent sure.

8 Q. So your answer is no, you are not 100 percent

9 sure?


11 THE WITNESS: That's what I said, I'm not going to

12 answer 100 percent.

13 BY MR. DONNELLY:

14 Q. Okay.

15 I'm asking you -- I'm sorry. So your answer is --

16 A. I'm not 100 percent is what I said.

17 Q. You're not 100 percent sure whether or not Warren

18 Jeffs is the leader of the FLDS religion?


20 You've got me confused now. You were talking

21 William, now you're talking Warren. I don't know what

22 question goes with what, so --

23 BY MR. DONNELLY:

24 Q. Are you confused?

25 A. I -- yeah, I don't understand. You already asked





64

1 me that question about Warren Jeffs, and I already answered

2 it. Now you're asking me again.

3 Q. When I asked you originally, and I could be

4 remembering this wrong, but it was, you know, not within the

5 last five minutes, but maybe before the last break, I asked

6 you whether or not Warren Jeffs was the leader of the FLDS

7 church. And you said yes, or something to that effect?

8 A. I said yes.

9 Q. You didn't say I think so.

10 You didn't have any qualification.

11 A. Okay.

12 Q. Is that the way you remember it?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay.

15 Now I'm asking you this --

16 A. So you're wanting me to put 100 percent on

17 everything?

18 Q. Certainly when I ask you a yes or no question, I

19 want you to be sure, yeah.

20 A. Yes, I think.


22 BY MR. DONNELLY:

23 Q. I'm sorry, what was your answer to that question?

24 A. What's the question again? Because now I -- what

25 the question was on here.





66

1 the leader of the FLDS church?

2 MR. HAMILTON: Go ahead and answer, if you know.

3 I'm going to object to form, though.

4 I think this is, at this point, has been asked and

5 answered, asked and answered, over and over and over again.

6 MR. DONNELLY: I don't think he answered the

7 question ever.

8 MR. HAMILTON: I think he has multiple times.

9 Objection; form.

10 THE WITNESS: I don't want to answer it again.

11 BY MR. DONNELLY:

12 Q. Okay. You don't really have a choice.

13 I'm asking you whether or not --

14 MR. DONNELLY: Can you read back my last question?

15 MR. HAMILTON: And before we do this, Mr. Matura

16 and I here, and we were talking about Lovisan and her

17 unavailability on Friday. Can we take a minute?

18 MR. DONNELLY: Do you want --

19 MR. HAMILTON: Can we take a quick break?

20 MR. DONNELLY: Sure. Yeah.



23 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record at

24 10:41.

25





67

1 BY MR. DONNELLY:

2 Q. I think when we took our last break the court

3 reporter was about to read back my last question to you.

4 THE REPORTER: Question. "So you're asserting your

5 First Amendment Right as to whether or not Warren Jeffs is

6 the leader of the church now?"

7 THE WITNESS: Yes.

8 BY MR. DONNELLY:

9 Q. Okay. I want to ask you about William Timpson

10 Jessop. How do you want me to refer to him? What's the

11 easiest for you?

12 A. We always refer to him as William T.

13 Q. William T. Okay.

14 William T., I think you said you weren't

15 100 percent sure whether he was ever a Bishop. Am I

16 remembering that right?

17 A. I think so.


19 BY MR. DONNELLY:

20 Q. Okay.

21 Did you -- you've been to services at the meeting

22 house?

23 A. I think I want to exercise my First Amendment

24 rights again and not answer that.

25





68

1 Q. So you're refusing to answer whether or not you've

2 ever been to the meeting house?

3 A. That wasn't your question.

4 Q. Let me rephrase it to the way I said before.

5 You're refusing to answer whether or not you've

6 ever attended services at the meeting house?

7 A. I'm exercising my First Amendment Right and not

8 answer that.

9 Q. All right.

10 Have you ever been to the meeting house?

11 A. I have.

12 Q. Have you ever seen Williams T. there?

13 A. I'm sure I have.

14 Q. Have you ever seen him there acting in the Bishop

15 capacity for the FLDS church?

16 MR. HAMILTON: Objection; foundation. Form.

17 THE WITNESS: I'm going to exercise my First

18 Amendment rights again and not answer that.

19 BY MR. DONNELLY:

20 Q. As an FLDS member, which we've at least

21 established happened two years ago, and prior to that, are

22 you familiar with what I've heard the term Saturday work

23 projects?

24 A. I'm familiar with the term.

25 Q. Okay. What does that term mean to you?





71

1 BY MR. DONNELLY:

2 Q. I'm asking for the period of, you know, prior to

3 two years ago when you were sure you were an FLDS member,

4 did you not know generally who was a member and who was not?

5 A. What's generally mean?

6 Q. If you saw 100 people walking through town, would

7 you know that 90 percent of them were or were not members?


9 THE WITNESS: Not necessarily.

10 BY MR. DONNELLY:

11 Q. So three years ago if we walked down the street,

12 you wouldn't be able to tell me who was a member and who was

13 not?

14 A. Not necessarily.

15 Q. So you're saying that you -- are you saying for a

16 particular person or are you saying that generally you don't

17 know?


19 THE WITNESS: To whether they were members or not?

20 BY MR. DONNELLY:

21 Q. Uh-hmm.

22 A. It wasn't my job to know whether they were members

23 or not.

24 Q. I'm not asking if it was your job to know or not.

25 I'm asking if three years ago we went walking down





72

1 the street, I understand that it's possible that you may run

2 across a person that you might not know. But generally, as

3 you're walking down the street, would you know whether or

4 not the majority of the people that you saw, whether or not

5 they were FLDS members or not?

6 MR. HAMILTON: Objection.

7 MR. MATURA: I'm sorry. I also want to state an

8 objection. It's going to be a little bit of a speaking

9 objection, so bear with me.

10 But because he's a member of the Marshal's Office,

11 it also falls under Colorado City. I find it amazing that

12 the Department of Justice is infringing upon this witness'

13 First Amendment Right.

14 You guys need to read the case law. You need to

15 read the cases that say asking questions and compelling

16 answers about other individuals who share the same belief,

17 is in itself an infringement upon an individual's First

18 Amendment Right.

19 You got to read the Supreme Court cases. You got

20 to read the Ninth Circuit case law.

21 Since I came back in ten minutes ago, every

22 question has been a violation of his First Amendment Right.

23 And you're the Department of Justice. You should know this.

24 So, I want to state my objection for the record,

25 because when we go before the judge on these issues, I want





73

1 to be clear that we've warned you about this individual's

2 First Amendment Right. And I'll not only make the same

3 objection for this individual, but the same objection for

4 all other witnesses who are going to be deposed.

5 They have constitutional rights, and you continue

6 to violate those rights.

7 So I just want it to be on the record that you've

8 been warned, and we'll file the appropriate motion at the

9 appropriate time.

10 MR. DONNELLY: But along those lines, you're not

11 instructing the witness not to answer.

12 MR. MATURA: I have stated my objection. So I --

13 we may instruct him not to answer depending on the question,

14 but these questions are violating his First Amendment

15 rights. You need to read the case law, you really do.

16 BY MR. DONNELLY:

17 Q. Let me ask you about domestics dogs in 2001, were

18 you involved in an incident in approximately 2001 where a

19 bunch of domestic dogs in Twin Cities were rounded up and

20 killed?


22 THE WITNESS: I did animal control. You make it

23 sound like we rounded up horses or something, or somebody

24 did. What are you referring to.

25





83

1 A. Not that I'm aware of.

2 Q. Was there any reaction from the Marshal's Office?


4 THE WITNESS: What do you mean by reaction?

5 BY MR. DONNELLY:

6 Q. Increase in rounding up of loose dogs.

7 Enforcement of dog ordinances, things like that?


9 THE WITNESS: I don't know that there was any

10 increase.

11 BY MR. DONNELLY:

12 Q. Let me just ask one last question on that. Was

13 there a directive from the FLDS church to gather up a bunch

14 of dogs after this incident?

15 A. No.


17 THE WITNESS: Sorry.

18 MR. HAMILTON: Give me a second.

19 BY MR. DONNELLY:

20 Q. And your answer was no?

21 A. My answer was no.

22 Q. Are you familiar with the current government

23 officials in town, meaning the mayor, town managers?

24 A. For the most part.

25 Q. Do you know who the current mayors are?





84

1 A. Actually, no, I don't know who Colorado City is.

2 Q. Okay.

3 A. Am I going to get fired?

4 Q. It's not my place.

5 What about the city and town managers, do you know

6 who they are?

7 A. David. I don't know who Utah's is.

8 Q. All right.

9 What about the current CCMO officers, do you know

10 who they are?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you name them for me?

13 A. Helaman, Sam, Curtis, Hyrum, Jerry.

14 Q. And you?

15 A. And me. I didn't. . .

16 Q. That's all right.

17 I mean, I read you a question awhile ago that had

18 your name in it, so. . .

19 Can you name any of those police officers who are

20 not members of the FLDS?


22 THE WITNESS: I don't know.

23 BY MR. DONNELLY:

24 Q. You don't know if any are or are not?

25 MR. HAMILTON: Same objection.





85

1 THE WITNESS: I'm going to go back to my First

2 Amendment Right, and not answer it.

3 BY MR. DONNELLY:

4 Q. For all -- for all five officers, besides

5 yourself?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What about for the mayor and town officials that

8 you know, do you know whether or not they are FLDS members?


10 THE WITNESS: First Amendment.

11 BY MR. DONNELLY:

12 Q. You're refusing to answer?

13 A. I'm refusing to answer on the First Amendment.

14 Q. Have you seen any of the Colorado City Marshal's

15 Office at the meeting house?

16 A. First Amendment.

17 Q. Have you seen any of the other officers on the

18 Saturday work projects we were talking about?


20 Q. Do you know who the mayor was before the current

21 mayner -- mayor, sorry, of Hildale?

22 A. I don't know.

23 I can tell you that David Zitting was.

24 Q. Do you know -- he's no longer the mayor, though,

25 right?





86

1 A. Right.

2 Q. Do you know approximately when he stopped being

3 the mayor?

4 A. I don't.

5 Q. Do you know why he stopped being the mayor?

6 A. I don't.

7 Q. Do you know whether he was an FLDS member?



10 BY MR. DONNELLY:

11 Q. What about for Colorado City, what about -- I know

12 you don't know -- what about George Barlow?

13 A. He was the mayor.

14 Q. Okay.

15 Do you know whether or not he was an FLDS member?


17 Q. Do you know -- he's no longer the mayor, right?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Do you know when he stopped?

20 A. I don't.

21 Q. We spoke earlier about the UEP trust and Bruce

22 Wisan, do you remember that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you just briefly tell me what your

25 understanding of Bruce Wisan's role is?





92


2 THE WITNESS: I know they have security.

3 BY MR. DONNELLY:

4 Q. How do you know that?

5 A. Willy told me.

6 Q. When you say Willy, you mean Willy Jessop?

7 A. Willy Jessop.

8 Q. Okay.

9 Who is Willy Jessop?

10 A. Dee's brother. Glades son.

11 Q. All right.

12 What's his -- why would he know that, about church

13 security?


15 THE WITNESS: Because I think he was a part of it.

16 BY MR. DONNELLY:

17 Q. You said you think he's a part of it.

18 You're not 100 percent sure?

19 A. He said he was.

20 Q. Did you ever see him working as a church security

21 member?


23 THE WITNESS: I saw him ask people to leave the

24 lot if there was a disturbance caused by them.

25





104

1 Q. Do you know what types of phones the church

2 security used?

3 A. Don't.

4 Q. Do you know whether they used Sprint Next

5 telephones?

6 A. I imagine they use whatever. I don't know.

7 Q. Do you know what a Sprint Next telephone is?

8 A. Yeah.

9 Q. Can you explain to me what it is so I have it on

10 the record?

11 A. It's a cell phone from Sprint.

12 Q. And in particular, I think it's the kind where you

13 can talk like it's a walkie-talkie rather than making a

14 phone call.

15 A. Okay.

16 Q. Are you familiar with those?

17 A. I know about them. I don't have one.

18 Q. Do you know whether the church security had them?

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. So it's fair to say that you never talked to the

21 church security on a Next telephone?

22 A. Oh, I got to answer? Sorry. No.

23 Q. Have you ever been inside the meeting house in

24 your capacity as a police officer?

25 A. Sure I have.





105

1 Q. Do you remember for what reason or reasons?

2 A. Not specifically.

3 Q. Do you know whether they have video surveillance

4 monitors inside the meeting house?

5 A. I think I will stand on the First Amendment on

6 that one.

7 Q. Can I ask why you think that's protected by the

8 First Amendment?

9 A. It's a church.

10 Q. Okay. And I'm --

11 A. It's -- what they have for security is their

12 business.

13 Q. Okay.

14 But just to be crystal clear, you're refusing to

15 answer my question about the video monitors?

16 A. Yes, I'm going to stand on the First Amendment.

17 MR. MATURA: I will assert again for the record,

18 for future use, that governing case law is very clear that

19 there's a substantial privacy interest in religious views,

20 including the identity of any individual who shares anyone's

21 particular views, as well as the place of worship, what

22 happens at a place of worship, describing the place of

23 worship, et cetera, are all absolutely protected by the

24 First Amendment.

25 MR. DONNELLY: And I'd like to know for the





106

1 record, but you're not instructing him not to answer?

2 MR. MATURA: The witness has the ability to invoke

3 his First Amendment if he so chooses.

4 There may be a time I instruct him not to answer,

5 depending how far the questions go, but again, I want to

6 remind the United States Government that it's continuing to

7 infringe upon this witness's First Amendment Rights

8 Q. And I'm assuming you're going to give the same

9 answer, but let me ask it this way again to make sure I have

10 it.

11 In your capacity as a police officer, were you

12 ever inside the meeting house and saw video surveillance

13 monitors?

14 MR. HAMILTON: Objection; form. Asked and

15 answered.


17 BY MR. DONNELLY:

18 Q. Have you ever been to the Bishop's residence as a

19 police officer?


21 THE WITNESS: I don't recall. No.

22 BY MR. DONNELLY:

23 Q. Do you know what the Bishop's residence is when I

24 say that?

25 A. Not exactly.





107

1 Q. What do you think I mean when I'm saying that?


3 THE WITNESS: To the Bishop's house.

4 BY MR. DONNELLY:

5 Q. Have you ever -- you can't -- and you're saying

6 that you can't remember whether or not you've ever been to

7 the Bishop's house?


9 answered.

10 THE WITNESS: Ever?

11 BY MR. DONNELLY:

12 Q. Ever.

13 A. Now you're asking have I ever personally been

14 there?

15 Q. Let me ask first: Have you ever been there in

16 your capacity as a police officer?

17 A. I think I probably have.

18 Q. Can you tell me the circumstances of the times you

19 were there as a police officer?

20 A. I don't recall.

21 Q. Can you tell me how many times you were there as a

22 police officer?

23 A. I can't.

24 I don't know.

25 Q. Were you inside the Bishop's residence as a police





108

1 officer?

2 A. May have been.

3 I don't recall.

4 Q. Do you remember. if you may have been in there, if

5 you may have seen video monitors inside the Bishop's

6 residence?


8 Q. Does the City have video surveillance of the, you

9 know, the town and the city?

10 A. Which city?

11 Q. Well, let's ask. Let me ask Colorado City first.

12 A. Do they have surveillance of what?

13 Q. Of the town, do they have cameras up that they can

14 look at?

15 A. They have cameras around the town hall.

16 Q. Anywhere else?


18 Q. So as far as you know, the only cameras that are

19 city owned, and we're talking about Colorado City right now,

20 are the ones that are on the town hall?

21 A. I think there's one across the street on the fire

22 station, too. That's the only ones I know of.

23 Q. What about Hildale?

24 A. I have no idea what Hildale has.

25 Q. Okay.





109

1 So as far as you know, those are the two cameras

2 for both cities, those are the only ones you know about?

3 A. Well, there's more than two. There's cameras

4 around the building.

5 Q. Those two places?

6 A. That's the only ones I know of.

7 Q. Are there any on any other city property, such as

8 city lamp posts, lights, things like that?

9 A. Oh, I do remember another one.

10 There's one.

11 MR. HAMILTON: At this point in time I'm going to

12 instruct the witness not to answer pursuant to the Utah and

13 Arizona Government Records Access Management Act, this

14 information of where all the church -- all the city's

15 security cameras would be is classified and private.


17 MR. DONNELLY: So you're instructing him not to

18 answer --

19 MR. HAMILTON: I am.

20 MR. DONNELLY: -- where the security cameras are?

21 MR. HAMILTON: Yep, just like yesterday. That

22 answer was given just like in our discovery responses, that

23 answer was given.

24 MR. DONNELLY: And you don't think that's relevant

25 to this case?





110

1 MR. HAMILTON: It's not that it's not relevant,

2 it's that those are protected and private under the

3 Government Records Access Management Act, and have been

4 classified as such.

5 MR. MATURA: So he would be violating a statute by

6 describing this to you.

7 MR. DONNELLY: All right.

8 MR. HAMILTON: And also ask the record be redacted

9 as far as the City Hall and the fire station.

10 MR. DONNELLY: Can he tell me about the rest of

11 them and have it be redacted?

12 MR. HAMILTON: Nope.

13 BY MR. DONNELLY:

14 Q. All right. Let's talk about the actual monitors.

15 Have you seen them?


17 BY MR. DONNELLY:

18 Q. We just talked about some cameras and we're no

19 longer talking about the locations of those, but those

20 cameras feed into some sort of monitoring system; is that

21 right.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Have you seen that monitoring system?

24 A. I have.

25 Q. Where is it?





132

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you don't remember whether or not there's a

3 big camera on top of the dentist's office?


5 THE WITNESS: I don't go around looking for

6 cameras. I don't know.

7 BY MR. DONNELLY:

8 Q. Okay.

9 So you don't remember?

10 A. I don't remember.

11 Q. Was it your testimony that you don't know one way

12 or the other whether or not the FLDS church has security

13 cameras?


15 answered.

16 THE WITNESS: I believe I stated that I was going

17 on my First Amendment rights to not answer that.

18 BY MR. DONNELLY:

19 Q. Okay.

20 Let me ask you about, again, about church

21 security.

22 Do you know if the police force ever provided any

23 training to the church security?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. Did you ever provide training to the church





156

1 didn't dig into it.

2 Q. Okay.

3 How long were you suspended for?

4 A. There was a letter put in my file. I don't know

5 if suspension had a -- I think it -- I'm not sure.

6 Q. Do you get paid during this time?

7 A. Not when you're suspended.

8 Q. I just wanted to make sure.

9 A. I wish.

10 Q. I just wanted to make sure. That makes perfect

11 sense.

12 In your time as a Marshal's officer has any other

13 police officers in the Marshal's Office been decertified by

14 either Arizona or Utah POST?

15 A. Have any officers been decertified?

16 Q. Uh-hmm?

17 A. Yeah. Yes.

18 Q. Can you tell me who they were?

19 A. Sam.

20 Q. Can you give me a last name so I can make sure

21 we're all --

22 A. Roundy.

23 Vance. And Rodney Holm.

24 Q. Do you remember approximately when those

25 decertifications happened?





157

1 A. I don't.

2 Q. For Sam Roundy, do you remember the accusations

3 about why he got decertified?

4 A. I -- my understanding was because of his religious

5 beliefs.

6 Q. Anything more particular on that, which religious

7 beliefs?

8 A. I'm going to go to the First Amendment.

9 Q. Okay.

10 Okay.

11 Do you remember -- you were an officer during this

12 time?

13 A. I was.

14 Q. Do you remember or do you have any knowledge of

15 any investigation by the City or the Town or any of the --

16 well, the Marshal's Office, into the allegations concerning

17 his decertification?


19 THE WITNESS: You're asking me if the City

20 investigated him for the same thing POST did?

21 BY MR. DONNELLY:

22 Q. Right.


24 Q. So you weren't asked any questions about it by --

25 not by AZ POST, or whichever POST it was? I'm sorry. I





158

1 don't remember right offhand, but internally?

2 A. About Sam?

3 Q. Uh-hmm.

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did you hear or have any knowledge of any other

6 officers being asked questions about Sam Roundy and the

7 reasons why he was getting decertified?

8 A. I'm having a hard time figuring out what you're

9 trying to ask me.

10 Q. I'm trying to find out if you have any -- I'm

11 trying to find out whether or not there was any internal

12 investigation of the allegations that eventually were the

13 reason why Sam Roundy got decertified?

14 A. I'm one of the foot guys. I don't know anything

15 about that.

16 Q. Okay.

17 So you didn't hear of anyone else investigating it

18 internally in the Marshal's Office or city official?

19 A. The first thing I heard about it was Sam was being

20 investigated by POST.

21 Q. And when that happened, was there any internal

22 investigation, to your knowledge, by either the City or the

23 Town governments or the Marshal's Office?


25 THE WITNESS: Not that I know of.





160

1 he got decertified?

2 A. Religious beliefs.

3 Q. Okay.

4 I think you were answering a different question,

5 but I'll go ahead and ask the question I think you just

6 answered.

7 Do you know why he got decertified, Rodney Holm?

8 A. Because of his religious beliefs.

9 Q. And if I ask you what those are more particularly

10 for his decertification, what's your answer?

11 A. I'm going to stay with the First Amendment.

12 Q. And then let me ask the other question that I've

13 been asking with these, which is, for Rodney Holm, are you

14 aware of any internal investigation by either the Town or

15 the City, or the Marshal's Office, of Rodney Holm about the

16 reasons that he was being investigated and eventually

17 decertified?

18 A. I have no knowledge of it.

19 Q. So as far as you know, that didn't happen for all

20 three of those officers?

21 A. What didn't happen?

22 Q. There was no internal investigation of Sam Roundy,

23 Vance Barlow or Rodney Holm for the reasons --

24 A. I have no knowledge of that.

25 Q. But once again -- all right. I'll let the -- I'll





176

1 Q. So what do officers do who don't want to spend

2 their own money on firearms?

3 A. Get a job somewhere else.

4 Q. So a Marshal -- I'm just asking, the Marshal's

5 Office expects you to supply your own gun?

6 A. The policy may or may not have changed over the

7 years. When I came on the department, I bought my own gun.

8 Q. Was the policy when you --

9 A. No. Actually, I could have gotten my gun back

10 then.

11 Q. But you chose not to?

12 A. I chose not to.

13 Q. And you bought and paid for all three of your

14 guns?

15 A. I did.

16 Q. Did Willy Jessop buy any of your guns?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Okay.

19 I'm going to walk right into this, but I need to

20 ask this question.

21 Are you now or were you ever a part of the FLDS

22 United Order?

23 A. Do you know what the First Amendment is? I'm

24 going to stand on that.

25 Q. So you're going to refuse to answer?





177

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Let me ask some more particular question.

3 It's my understanding that as part of the United

4 Order you need to, in some way, sign over your personal

5 property to the church. Is that right?



8 BY MR. DONNELLY:

9 Q. And my question is, if that is true, whether or

10 not you or the church owns your guns?



13 BY MR. DONNELLY:

14 Q. Do you remember an incident in approximately 2010

15 where Shane Stubbs --

16 Let me ask you first, do you know who Shane Stubbs

17 is?

18 A. I do.

19 Q. Do you remember an incident involving him in 2010,

20 where he used an access road that used to be on Joe Jessop's

21 property, and you arrested him for it? Is any of this

22 ringing a bell?

23 A. I don't remember arresting him.

24 Q. Did you --

25 A. Do you have an address?





180

1 Johnson was grazing sheep on Shane's land?


3 THE WITNESS: I'd have to have a report.

4 BY MR. DONNELLY:

5 Q. You don't remember anything like that?

6 A. I don't remember that.

7 MR. DONNELLY: That's all the questions I have for

8 you today. Do you have any follow-up questions?

9 MR. HAMILTON: You said all the questions you have

10 for him today.

11 Are you wanting to keep the deposition open for

12 some reason?

13 MR. DONNELLY: We don't need to keep it open.

14 We'll probably, most likely file a motion to

15 compel on all the answers he refused to give today.

16 MR. HAMILTON: Okay.

17 I don't have any questions. So. . .

18 We'd ask for the opportunity to read and sign.

19 And do you want that deposition transcript sent to

20 you or sent to me and I get it to you?

21 THE WITNESS: Send it to you and you can get it to

22 me.

23 MR. HAMILTON: Okay.

24 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes the deposition

25 of Shem Jessop.





181

1 We are off the record at 2:49.

2 (Whereupon, the deposition concluded at 2:49 p.m.)

3

4 ______________________

5 SHEM JESSOP

6

7 * * * * *

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182

1

2 STATE OF ARIZONA ))ss.

3 COUNTY OF MARICOPA )

4

5 BE IT KNOWN that the foregoing deposition was

6 taken before me, Marty Herder, a Certified Court Reporter,

7 CCR No. 50162, State of Arizona; that the witness before

8 testifying was duly sworn by me to testify to the whole

9 truth; that the questions propounded to the witness and the

10 answers of the witness thereto were reduced to typewriting

11 under my direction; that the witness elected to read and

12 sign the deposition transcript; that the foregoing 180 pages

13 constitute a true and accurate transcript of all proceedings

14 had upon the taking of said deposition, all done to the best

15 of my skill and ability.

16 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am in no way related to

17 any of the parties hereto, nor am I in any way interested in

18 the outcome hereof.

19 DATED at Chandler, Arizona, this 26th day of July,

20 2013.

21 __________________________

22 C. Martin Herder, CCRCertified Court Reporter


Deposition of Shem Jessop

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Transcript of Deposition of Shem Jessop