Democracy Now! All the interviews republished on prismaprisma.net

7/29/2019 Democracy Now! All the interviews republished on prismaprisma.net

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DEMOCRACY NOW!

Interviews republished by prismaprisma.net


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Contents

Venezuelan President Hugo Chvez on Climate Change: "We Must Go fromCapitalism to Socialism" ................................................................................................ 2

Another 9/11 Anniversary:September 11, 1973, When US-Backed Pinochet ForcesTook Power in Chile ..................................................................................................... 5Allan Nairn Exposes Role of U.S. and New Guatemalan President in IndigenousMassacres ..................................................................................................................... 10Genocide Trial of Former Dictator Ros Montt Suspended After Intervention byGuatemalan President .................................................................................................. 24Allan Nairn: After Ros Montt Verdict, Time for U.S. to Account for Its Role inGuatemalan Genocide .................................................................................................. 2940 Years After Chile Coup, Family of Slain Singer Victor Jara Sues Alleged Killer inU.S. Court .................................................................................................................... 31


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Venezuelan President Hugo Chvez on Climate Change:

"We Must Go from Capitalism to Socialism"

Monday, December 21, 2009

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We speak with Venezuelan President Hugo Chvez about climate change, theCopenhagen summit and President Obama. Chvez calls the COP15 summitundemocratic and accuses world leaders of only seeking a face-saving agreement."We must reduce all the emissions that are destroying the planet," Chvez says. "Thatrequires a change in the economic model: We must go from capitalism to socialism."

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Amy Goodman: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and PeaceReport. Im Amy Goodman. Venezuelan President Hugo Chvez spared no criticism

of the climate conference in Copenhagen. At a joint news conference he held with theBolivian president, Evo Morales, on Friday afternoonthis was before PresidentObama announced the accordChvez called the proceedings undemocratic andaccused world leaders of only seeking a face-saving agreement. He describedPresident Obama as having won the "Nobel War Prize" and said the world stillsmelled of sulfur, referring to his comments about President Bush at the United

Nations last year.

Well, shortly after the news conference, I caught up with President Chvez for a fewminutes.

Amy Goodman: You sell more oil to the United States than any country but Canada.Your economy depends on oil, yet you are here at a climate change summit. Whatsyour proposal?

President Hugo Chavez: [translated] The problem is not the oil, but what they dowith the oil. The United States is the biggest spender of oil and of all the planetresources. Oil is a very valuable resource for lifeelectric heaters. We must have totransition ourselves to a post-oil era. And thats what we must discuss: searching anddeveloping new sources of energy. And that requires scientific research. That requiresinvestment. And the developed countries must be the ones to assume thisresponsibility first.


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Amy Goodman: What level of emissions are you willing to support reductions ofemissions?

President Hugo Chavez: [translated] One hundred percent. One hundred percent. Wemust reduce the emissions 100 percent. In Venezuela, the emissions are currently

insignificant compared to the emissions of the developed countries. We are inagreement. We must reduce all the emissions that are destroying the planet. However,that requires a change in lifestyle, a change in the economic model: We must go fromcapitalism to socialism. Thats the real solution.

Amy Goodman: How do you throw away capitalism?

President Hugo Chavez: [translated] The way they did it in Cuba. Thats the way.The same way we are doing in Venezuela: giving the power to the people and takingit away from the economic elites. You can only do that through a revolution.

Amy Goodman: President Obamawhat is your reaction to his speech today?

President Hugo Chavez: [translated] Obama is a big frustration. In my opinion,Obama can become one of the biggest frustrations in the history for many people, notfor me, but for the people of the United States that voted for him and saw him as asymbol of hope for change. But he has given continually to the most aggressive Bush

policies, the imperialist policies.

Amy Goodman: What example of that?

President Hugo Chavez: [translated] The war. I told Obama, when he took theinitiative to come visit us in the Summit of the Americaswe talked for a fewminutes. I told him, "Obama, lets work for peace in Colombia. Thats what I am

proposing. Lets get a team together to analyze the problem." But absolutely nothing.He is now installing seven military bases in Colombia. Thats just one example.

And in Iraq and Afghanistan, policies of war. Guantnamo, it is a great frustration.And I feel sorry, not for me. You are from the United States. I feel sorry for you,

because you deserve a government that takes care of the problems of the people of theUnited States and stops thinking about dominating the rest of the world and justgoverns over the United States, eradicates the problems of the United States, the

poverty, the inequality, which gets bigger every day, the unemployment, families onthe street, homeless, without Social Security, diseases. I wish for you to get agovernment that truly takes care of you first and then works towards peace for the restof the world.

Amy Goodman: The U.S. government calls you a dictator. What is your response?

President Hugo Chavez: [translated] I laugh. I laugh. It is the empire calling me adictator. Im happy. And I remember Don Quixote, Quixote who was with Sancho,you know, and the dogs start to bark, and Sancho says, "They are going to bite us."And Quixote wisely answers, "Take it easy, Sancho, because if the dogs are barking,

it is because we are galloping." I will be very sad and worried if the imperialist


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government was calling me a great democratic man. No, it is them, the empire, whoattack those who are truly contributing to the real democracy.

Amy Goodman: Venezuelan President Hugo Chvez, speaking to us in Copenhagenon Friday.

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Another 9/11 Anniversary:

September 11, 1973, When US-Backed Pinochet Forces

Took Power in Chile

Wednesday, September 15, 2010

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While memorials were held across the US for the ninth anniversary of 9/11, weremember another 9/11: September 11th, 1973, when Salvador Allende, thedemocratically elected president of Chile, died in the palace as US-backed Pinochetforces rose to power. We speak with Juan Garcs, a personal adviser to Allende. Hewas the sole adviser to survive the coup and its aftermath.

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AMY GOODMAN: This past Saturday, there were memorials held across the UnitedStates to mark the ninth anniversary of the attacks of September 11, 2001. But the9/11 attacks were not the only September 11th remembered that day. In Chile, many

people spent the day reflecting on another 9/11: September 11th, 1973, when a US-backed coup led by General Augusto Pinochet ousted the democratically electedpresident, Salvador Allende. He died in the palace on that day.

Our next guest, Juan Garcs, was a personal adviser to Salvador Allende. Juan Garcs

was with the president when revolting troops bombed the presidential palace andfound himself the sole survivor among Allendes political advisers when the coup hadrun its course.

More than twenty years later, Juan Garcs has led a legal effort to sue AugustoPinochet for crimes against humanity in the Spanish courts. Juan Garcs is nowfocused on getting the Spanish courts to investigate for the first time the crimesagainst humanity committed under General Francos dictatorship.

Juan Garcs won the Right Livelihood Award in 1999 and so is here in Bonn.

Welcome toDemocracy Now!


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JUAN GARCS: Thank you.

AMY GOODMAN: Its great to have you with us. Well, lets start on the September11th. In fact, onDemocracy Now!

, on the day that the planes attacked the Trade Center towers, we were just blocksfrom Ground Zero, and we were doing the broadcast at that moment, as we did everyday. At the time, we did it at 9:00 in the morning. And we were doing a special thatday on the connection between terror and September 11th, 1973, when SalvadorAllende died in the palace. Tell us about that day. Where were you, Juan Garcs,1973?

JUAN GARCS: Well, we should remember that Chile was, in the '70s, beginningof the 70s, the most democratic country in the Spanish-speaking world LatinAmerica and Spain and Portugal included. And this day, for the first time in history,of the Chilean history, the army revolted against the legitimate government. That was

unexpected. And this army overthrew the government and changed the regime andestablished, in place of the parliamentarian democracy, a dictatorship, and throughforce, through massive arrests, through killings, [inaudible] the president wasSalvador Allende, a Democrat for forty years in the public life of Chile, a convincedDemocrat, that fought until his last moment of life for defending the law anddefending the freedom of all the Chilean citizens.

AMY GOODMAN: So, you were in the palace.

JUAN GARCS: I was inside the palace.

AMY GOODMAN: You were with Allende.

JUAN GARCS: Yes.

AMY GOODMAN: The last adviser to be with him. You left, though. Why?

JUAN GARCS: Well, two hours after the attack, the president asked me to leavethe palace in a moment in which fifteen minutes of truce. Before the airplanesattacked the palace, the army was put back. And in this moment, he ordered me tosave my life. That is why we can speak now.

AMY GOODMAN: It's always been debated whether President Allende killedhimself or was killed by Augusto Pinochets troops. What do you think?

JUAN GARCS: I think that its irrelevant. President was the President Allendewas willing to fight against the putschists, the revolter, the troops. He was acommander-in-chief. He didnt accept to surrender to those revolters, army men. Andhe fought. What happened in the last minutes, last seconds, he was killed by therevolters, the soldiers, or he killed himself with his last bullet, is indifferent. What isimportant is that he fought for preserving the freedom of his people.

AMY GOODMAN: So you left Chile. You ultimately ended up in Spain, and youhave made world history for trying to hold Augusto Pinochet accountable over all of


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these years. You are a crusading lawyer who, when Augusto Pinochet went for amedical appointment in Britain, succeeded in having the Spanish government demandhis arrest, and hopefully you wanted extradition to Spain, where he would standtrial for crimes against humanity. On what legal grounds were you able to do this inSpain?

JUAN GARCS: Let me explain that. World War II ended in '45, 1945, and was avictory of democracies against fascism. And the [inaudible] international law that has

been developing since 1945 is the law of the victors, the law of the democraticpowers. And according to this law, crimes against humanity genocide should bepunished, should be first prevented, or punished, if not prevented in time. So, Spain ismy country, and what I have been looking for is to implement this law. And that is noteasy, because sometimes courts of justice are not ready to apply the law as it is in theConstitution or it is in the law. Democracy as law is a fight for every day. If you don'tfight for that, its just a piece of paper. So we are trying to help to exercise to the

people to exercise their rights and making accountable of their crimes, big crimes, to

the highest levels of government that are implicated in making those crimes possible.

AMY GOODMAN: It is now well known, Juan Garcs, that President Nixon, thatthe Secretary of State Henry Kissinger were deeply involved with the support ofAugusto Pinochets rise to power and the overthrow of the democratically elected

president. But it was you who pushed, under developing this case against Pinochet,for the Clinton administration to declassify thousands of documents that proved this.What did you learn about our role, the US role, in Chile?

JUAN GARCS: Well, I justified what was already known to me, that without thedecisive backing of the Nixon administration to the coup dtat in Chile, this coupdtat would not take place or will be defeated by the Chilean Democrats. So, I thankthe US Congress and the US executive, under Clinton administration, to decide to putthose classified documents, available now via our internet, as a clear message that thisshould not be done. And I hope that the message is understood, because we are nowliving in a period of trouble, economic, social trouble. We know that that will meanchallenge for democracy in every country in the world, including inside the UnitedStates. There will be people ready to sacrifice freedoms and liberties under themessage of the order in the economy, and people are ready to organize massivekillings under this pretext. That has happened already in history, and we should

prevent that that happens again. And for that, we will we should alert the

population.

AMY GOODMAN: Now, you had the good luck of coming before a judge, whenyou first made your case in Spain, also, like you, a crusader, Baltasar Garzn, who didissue the indictment against Augusto Pinochet. He has now been suspended, thoughhe gained world fame for pursuing Pinochet, among others, and is under siege in yourown country, in Spain. Ultimately, Pinochet did get back to Chile, on the grounds thathe was, what, suffering dementia or he was too sick, but do you still feel it was avictory, what you did, keeping him in Britain for over a year?

JUAN GARCS: There was a legal battle in the courts of justice in Spain and the

United Kingdom. And the outcome of this judicial battle was that the extradition wasgranted by the House of Lords, the highest court in the United Kingdom, to Spain. So


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the legal case was won by those that asked for implementing the international lawagainst crimes for genocide and against humanity.

Now, this is a fight, a universal fight, where we have coalitions, informal coalitions orformal coalitions that are against impunity or for impunity. When Pinochet was

arrested in London, people as the Pope, the Catholic Pope, as Kissinger, the otherpeople in the world, were mobilizing to put pressure over the courts and thegovernment of the United Kingdom to put Pinochet in a plane and send him freed forChile. And there was another informal coalition, universal, that was wanted to puthim on trial. These coalitions are still are always acting. And even now, you cansee how, around the attack against Judge Garzn in Spain, theres an informalcoalition that wants to punish this judge that dared to apply the law. And another onethat said, well, the law is there for to be implemented. So we need judges ready toapply the law. And this is the current fight inside Spain, with a difference, that theSpanish judiciary are under the judicial authority, jurisdiction, of the European Courtof Human Rights, that has a constant jurisprudence saying that the states are under the

obligation to inquire and to put on trial the people that are responsible for crimes ofgenocide. So, this is a permanent fight, and that will continue, because both tendency is that both coalitions always in fight, one against the other.

Remember, this year of 1939. That was the beginning of the World War II. A fewweeks before, Germany, the Third Reich of Germany, invaded Poland. During thewar, Hitler asked his generals to be ready to invade Poland, and not only to occupythe territory, but to exterminate the population in those territories, because German

population should replace this population. Some generals say, "My Fhrer, there willa provoking of cry in the world. Thousands of people will be killed, and there will be

blame for us." And the answer from Hitler was, "Why? Twenty years ago was amassacre of Armenians. More than one million Armenians were massacred by theTurkish, in the Turkish Empire. Who remembers now the Armenians?" So, theforgiveness of the first big massacre in the twentieth century was the pretext forencouraging a second wave of massacre that was in World War II.

AMY GOODMAN: And, of course, many saw the ascendancy of the fascist GeneralFranco -

JUAN GARCS: Yes.

AMY GOODMAN:- as head of Spain as being a precursor to Hitler, that if Hitlersaw that Franco could do it -

JUAN GARCS: In fact, its not exactly - Hitler took power in '33, 1933. Francorevolted, General Franco, against the legitimate democratic government of theSpanish Republic, with Hitler's help and Mussolini fascism help, and those two

powers, the Axis powers, helped Franco to establish a dictatorship in Spain that wasalive until 1977. And around 2,000 more than 2,000 people 200,000 people more than 200,000 people were killed or disappeared. But simultaneously with theirkillings, the courts of justice were being closed to investigate those crimes. Then the

and since '36, all the courts of Spain are closed for

AMY GOODMAN: For investigating the crimes of Franco.


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JUAN GARCS: For investigating crimes of the Franco regime, until two years agothat Judge Garzn opened his court to an investigation. And the whole judicial systemwanted to crush the judge there.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, let's talk about this, because youre very involved in trying

to go after the crimes at that time, as is Judge Baltasar Garzn. And he has beensuspended as a result. You actually fear for his life right now. Why?

JUAN GARCS: Well, Judge Garzn is very well known in Spain, because he hasbeen the most active judge applying the law against the most dangerous gangs ofterrorists, Spanish terrorists and international terrorists, against gangs of drugtrafficking and gangs of armed burglary and corruption networks inside of Spain andother countries, so for more than twenty years ago. And that is real power, thosegangs, what is behind that. And those people that have been arrested by him, put ontrial by him, want him. And now hes in a very vulnerable situation, because thehighest level of the Spanish judiciary want to crush this judge. And this, I fear for

him.

AMY GOODMAN: And for yourself?

JUAN GARCS: I fear for him. Well, I talk about the others.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, we will certainly continue to follow this case. Just in thirtyseconds, if you could say, what are the crimes against humanity that you feel GeneralFranco committed that you want pursued right now?

JUAN GARCS: Those crimes these kind of crimes are indescribable.

AMY GOODMAN: Are?

JUAN GARCS: Indescribable. And there are still people in Spain alive that were aparticipant in those crimes. And what we want to show to the Spanish population isthat if they want to build in a strong democracy that could be with a possibility toresist any wave of crimes of this nature, they should know what happened during thedictatorship and become conscious of that, in order to not only to punish the peoplethat are still alive of committing the crimes, but also preventing. That is the mostimportant, to prevent new crimes of this order.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, Juan Garcs, I want to thank you very much for beingwith us. Juan Garcs is a Right Livelihood Award laureate. He won it in 1999. He is acrusading attorney in Spain, the sole surviving personal adviser to Salvador Allende,who died in the Chilean palace in Santiago, September 11th, 1973.


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Allan Nairn Exposes Role of U.S. and New Guatemalan President

in Indigenous Massacres

Friday, April 19, 2013

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In 1982, investigative journalist Allan Nairn interviewed a Guatemalan general named

"Tito" on camera during the height of the indigenous massacres. It turns out the manwas actually Otto Prez Molina, the current Guatemalan president. We air the originalinterview footage and speak to Nairn about the U.S. role backing the Guatemalandictatorship. Last week, Nairn flew to Guatemala where he had been scheduled totestify in the trial of former U.S.-backed dictator Efran Ros Montt, the first head ofstate in the Americas to stand trial for genocide. Ros Montt was charged inconnection with the slaughter of more than 1,700 people in Guatemalas Ixil regionafter he seized power in 1982. His 17-month rule is seen as one of the bloodiestchapters in Guatemalas decades-long campaign against Maya indigenous people,which resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands. The trial took a surprising turnlast week when Guatemala President Gen. Otto Prez Molina was directly accused ofordering executions. A former military mechanic named Hugo Reyes told the courtthat Prez Molina, then serving as an army major and using the name Tito Arias,ordered soldiers to burn and pillage a Maya Ixil area in the 1980s. Click here to hearour live update of the trial from Nairn in Guatemala City.

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AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War andPeace Report. Im Amy Goodman, with Juan Gonzlez. We continue our coverage of

the historic trial of former U.S.-backed Guatemalan dictator Efran Ros Montt oncharges of genocide and crimes against humanity. Allan Nairn joined us in our studiolast week before he flew to Guatemala. I began by asking him to describe just whoRos Montt is.

ALLAN NAIRN: Ros Montt was the dictator of Guatemala during 1982, '83. Heseized power in a military coup. He was trained in the U.S. He had served inWashington as head of the Inter-American Defense College. And while he was

president, he was embraced by Ronald Reagan as a man of great integrity, someone

totally devoted to democracy. And he killed many tens of thousands of civilians,particularly in the Mayan northwest highlands. In this particular trial, he is being


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charged with 1,771 specific murders in the area of the Ixil Mayans. These charges arebeing brought because the prosecutors have the names of each of these victims.They've been able to dig up the bones of most of them.

AMY GOODMAN: Talk about how this campaign, this slaughter, was carried outand how it links to, well, the current government in Guatemala today.

ALLAN NAIRN: The army swept through the northwest highlands. And accordingto soldiers who I interviewed at the time, as they were carrying out the sweeps, theywould go into villages, surround them, pull people out of their homes, line them up,execute them. A forensic witness testified in the trial that 80 percent of the remainstheyve recovered had gunshot wounds to the head. Witnesses havewitnesses andsurvivors have described Ros Montts troops beheading people. One talked about an

old woman who was beheaded, and then they kicked her head around the floor. Theyripped the hearts out of children as their bodies were still warm, and they piled themon a table for their parents to see.

The soldiers I interviewed would describe their interrogation techniques, which theyhad been taught at the army general staff. And they said they would ask people, "Whoin the town are the guerrillas?" And if the people would respond, "We dont know,"then they would strangle them to death. These sweeps were intense. The soldiers saidthat often they would kill about a third of a towns population. Another third theywould capture and resettle in army camps. And the rest would flee into the mountains.There, in the mountains, the military would pursue them using U.S.-suppliedhelicopters, U.S.- and Israeli-supplied planes. They would drop U.S. 50-kilogram

bombs on them, and they would machine-gun them from U.S. Huey and Bellhelicopters, using U.S.-supplied heavy-caliber machine guns.

AMY GOODMAN: Lets turn to a clip of you interviewing a soldier in thehighlands. This is from a Finnish documentaryis that right? And when was thisdone? When were you talking to soldiers there?

ALLAN NAIRN: This was in September of 1982 in the Ixil zone in the area

surrounding the town of Nebaj.

AMY GOODMAN: Lets go to a clip of this interview.

GUATEMALAN SOLDIER: [translated] This is how we are successful. And also, ifwe have already interrogated them, the only thing we can do is kill them.

ALLAN NAIRN: [translated] And how many did you kill?

GUATEMALAN SOLDIER: [translated] We killed the majority. There is nothingelse to do than kill them.

ALLAN NAIRN: [translated] So you killed them at once?


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GUATEMALAN SOLDIER: [translated] Yes. If they do not want to do the rightthings, there is nothing more to do than bomb the houses.

ALLAN NAIRN: [translated] Bomb? With what?

GUATEMALAN SOLDIER: [translated] Well, with grenades or collective bombs.

ALLAN NAIRN: [translated] What is a collective bomb?

GUATEMALAN SOLDIER: [translated] They are like cannons.

ALLAN NAIRN: [translated] Do you use helicopters?

GUATEMALAN SOLDIER: [translated] Yes.

ALLAN NAIRN: [translated] What is the largest amount of people you have killed atonce?

GUATEMALAN SOLDIER: [translated] Well, really, in Solol, around 500 people.

ALLAN NAIRN: [translated] And how do they react when you arrive?

GUATEMALAN SOLDIER: [translated] Who?

ALLAN NAIRN: [translated] The people from the small villages.

GUATEMALAN SOLDIER: [translated] When the army arrives, they flee fromtheir houses. And so, as they flee to the mountains, the army is forced to kill them.

ALLAN NAIRN: [translated] And in which small village did the army do that kindof thing?

GUATEMALAN SOLDIER: [translated] That happened a lot of times.

ALLAN NAIRN: [translated] Specifically, could you give me some examples wherethese things happened?

GUATEMALAN SOLDIER: [translated] In Salquil, Sumal Chiquito, SumalGrande, Acul.

AMY GOODMAN: When did you interview this soldier, Allan?

ALLAN NAIRN: This was in September of 82.

AMY GOODMAN: What were you doing there?

ALLAN NAIRN: Making a documentary for Scandinavian television.


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AMY GOODMAN: So you have soldiers talking about killing civilians, the brutalinterrogations that they were engaged in. Why would they be telling you this? Yourea journalist. Theyre talking about crimes theyre committing.

ALLAN NAIRN: Well, because this is their everyday life. They do this all the time.They do it under orders from the top of the chain of command, at that time RosMontt. And they had hardly ever seen journalists at that time. It was very rare for anoutside journalist or even a local journalist to go into that area.

AMY GOODMAN: So lets take this to the current day, to the president ofGuatemala today, because at the same time you were interviewing these soldiers, youinterviewed the Guatemalan presidentat least the Guatemalan president today in2013.

ALLAN NAIRN: Yes, the senior officer, the commander in Nebaj, was a man whoused the code name "Mayor Tito," Major Tito. It turns out that that mans real namewas Otto Prez Molina. Otto Prez Molina later ascended to general, and today he isthe president of Guatemala. So he is the one who was the local implementer of the

program of genocide which Ros Montt is accused of carrying out.

AMY GOODMAN: This is a huge charge. I mean, right now, its an historic trialwhen its 25 years after a past president is now being charged. Lets go to a clip ofOtto Prez Molina, the current president of Guatemala, but this is 1982 in the

heartland area of Quich in northwest Guatemala, northwest of Guatemala City. Inthis video clip, Otto Prez Molina is seen reading from political literature found onone of the bodies. This is your interview with him.

MAYOR OTTO PREZ MOLINA: [translated] "The poor artisan fights alongsidethe worker. The poor peasant fights alongside the worker. The wealth is produced byus, the poor. The army takes the poor peasants. Together, we have an invincible force.All the families are with the guerrilla, the guerrilla army of the poor, toward finalvictory forever." These are the different fronts that they have.

ALLAN NAIRN: [translated] So here they are saying that the army killed somepeople.

MAYOR OTTO PREZ MOLINA: [translated] Exactly.

AMY GOODMAN: I mean, this is astounding. This is the current president ofGuatemala standing over these bodies. Tell us more.

ALLAN NAIRN: Well, as one of the soldiers says in the sound in the background,thePrez Molina interrogated these men. And soon after, they werethey weredead. And one soldier told me off camera that in fact after Prez Molina interrogatedthem, they finished them off.


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AMY GOODMAN: This man, Prez Molina, the president, actually was going by acode name at the time. When was it clear that this is Prez Molina? Though we have avery clear shot of him.

ALLAN NAIRN: For a long time, Prez Molina was trying to obscure his past andapparently hide the fact that he played this role in a supervisory position during thehighland massacres. During the Guatemalan presidential campaign, which PrezMolina eventually won, about two years ago, I got calls while I was in Asia from theGuatemalan press, from The Wall Street Journal, asking whether I could vouch for thefact that Mayor Tito, the man in the video who I encountered in the northwesthighlands in the midst of the massacreswhether I could vouch for the fact thatMayor Tito was in fact General Otto Prez Molina, the presidential candidate. And Isaid that I couldnt, just from looking at the current videos. You know, people canchange a lot visually over 30 years, so I said I couldnt be sure. It turns out thatandduring the campaign, when reporters would ask the Prez Molina campaign, "Is PrezMolina Mayor Tito?" they would dodge the question. They would evade. They wererunning from it. It turns out, though, we just learned this week, that Prez Molina hadadmitted back in 2000 that he was Mayor Tito. But then, apparently afterward, hethought better of it and was trying to bury it. And now, this is potentially trouble forhim. Hes currently president, and so, under Guatemalan law, he enjoys immunity.But once he leaves the presidency, he could, in theory, be subject to prosecution, justas Ros Montt is now being prosecuted.

AMY GOODMAN: That could be a serious motivation for him declaring himselfpresident for life.

ALLAN NAIRN: Well, Ros Montt seized power by a coup, but one of the importantfacts about the situation now is that the military men dont have the power that theyused to. The fact that this trial is happening is an indication of that. This trial ishappening because the survivors refused to give up. They persistedthe survivorshave been working on this for decades, pushing to bring Ros Montt and the othergenerals to justice. They refused to give up. They got support from international

some international human rights lawyers. And within the Guatemalan justice system,there were a few people of integrity who ascended to positions of some authoritywithin the prosecutorial system, within the judiciary. And so, we now have this near-

political miracle of a country bringing to trial its former dictator for genocide, whilethe president of the country, who was implicated in those killings, sits by.

AMY GOODMAN: Allan, this video that we have of you interviewing PrezMolinaagain, as you said, he admitted to the Guatemalan newspaper, Prensa Libre,in 2000 that he used the nickname Titois quite astounding. So lets go to anotherclip, where youre talking to him about the kind of support that he wants.


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ALLAN NAIRN: [translated] The United States is considering giving military helphere in the form of helicopters. What is the importance of helicopters for all of you?

MAYOR OTTO PREZ MOLINA: [translated] A helicopter is an apparatus thatsbecome of great importance not only here in Guatemala but also in other countries

where theyve had problems of a counterinsurgency.

ALLAN NAIRN: [translated] Like in Vietnam?

MAYOR OTTO PREZ MOLINA: [translated] In Vietnam, for example, thehelicopter was an apparatus that was used a lot.

ALLAN NAIRN: [translated] Can you also use it in combat?

MAYOR OTTO PREZ MOLINA: [translated] Yes, of course. The helicoptersthat are military types, they are equipped to support operations in the field. They havemachine guns and rocket launchers.

ALLAN NAIRN: [translated] What type of mortars are you guys using?

MAYOR OTTO PREZ MOLINA: [translated] Theres various types of mortars.We have small mortars and the mortars Tampella.

ALLAN NAIRN: Tampella.

MAYOR OTTO PREZ MOLINA: [translated] Yes, its a mortar thats 60millimeters.

ALLAN NAIRN: [translated] Is it very powerful? Does it have a lot of force todestroy things?

MAYOR OTTO PREZ MOLINA: [translated] Yes, its a weapon thats veryeffective. Its very useful, and it has a very good result in our operation in defense ofthe country.

ALLAN NAIRN: [translated] Is it against a person or...?

MAYOR OTTO PREZ MOLINA: [translated] Yes, its an anti-personnel weapon.ALLAN NAIRN: [translated] Do you have one here?

MAYOR OTTO PREZ MOLINA: [translated] Its light and easy to transport, aswell.

ALLAN NAIRN: [translated] So, its very light, and you can use it with your hand.

MAYOR OTTO PREZ MOLINA: [translated] Exactly, with the hand.

ALLAN NAIRN: [translated] Where did you get them?

MAYOR OTTO PREZ MOLINA: [translated] These, we got from Israel.


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ALLAN NAIRN: [translated] And where do you get the ammunition?

MAYOR OTTO PREZ MOLINA: [translated] Thats also from Israel.

AMY GOODMAN: So, this is, again, the current president, Prez Molina, of

Guatemala, the general you met in the highlands in 1982, asking for more aid. Talkabout the relationship between Guatemala then and the United States.

ALLAN NAIRN: Well, the U.S. was the sponsor of the Guatemalan army, as it hadbeen for many decades, as the U.S. has and continues to sponsor dozens and dozens ofrepressive armies all over the world. In the case of Guatemala, if you go into themilitary academy and you see the pictures of the past presidents of military academy,some of them are actually Americans. Theyre actual American officers there whowere openly running the Guatemalan military training. By the 80s, when the RosMontt massacres were being carried out, the U.S. Congress was under the impression

that they had successfully stopped U.S. military aid to Guatemala. But in fact it wascontinuing. The CIA had an extensive program of backing the G-2, the G-2, themilitary intelligence service, which selected the targets for assassination anddisappearance. They eventhey even built a headquarters fora secret headquartersfor the G-2 near the Guatemala City airport. They had American advisers workinginside the headquarters. Out in the field, Guatemalan troops were receiving from theU.S. ammunition, weapons.

And most importantly, the U.S., beginning under the Carter administration butcontinuing under Reagan and after, asked the Israelis to come in and fill the gap thatwas caused by congressional restrictions. So Israel was doing massive shipments ofGalil automatic rifles and other weapons. And Prez Molina, as you saw in the video,actually had one of his subordinates come over and show me an Israeli-made mortar.That mortar and the helicopters he was asking for from the U.S., those were the kindof weapons they would use to bomb villages and attack people as they were fleeing inthe mountains. In listening to the testimony in the trial up to this moment, I was struck

by the fact that almost every witness mentioned that they had been attacked from theair, that either their village had been bombed or strafed or that they were bombed orstrafed as they were fleeing in the mountains. This testimony suggests that the use of

this U.S. and Israeli aircraft and U.S. munitions against the civilians in the Ixilhighlands was actually much more extensive than we understood at the time.

Beyond that, beyond the material U.S. support, theres the question of doctrine.Yesterday in the trial, the Ros Montt defense called forward a general, a formercommander of the G-2, as an expert witness on the defense side. And at the end of histestimony, the prosecution read to this general an excerpt from a Guatemalan militarytraining document. And the document said it is often difficult for soldiers to acceptthe fact that they may be required to execute repressive actions against civilianwomen, children and sick people, but with proper training, they can be made to do so.

So, the prosecutor asked the Ros Montt general, "Well, General, what is your


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response to this document?" And the general responded by saying, "Well, that trainingdocument which we use is an almost literal translation of a U.S. training document."So this doctrine of killing civilians, even down to women, children and sick people,was, as the general testified, adopted from the U.S. Indeed, years before, the U.S.

military attach in Guatemala, Colonel John Webber, had said to Time magazine thatthe Guatemalan army was licensed to kill guerrillas and potential guerrillas. And, ofcourse, the category of potential guerrillas can include anyone, including children.

And the point of guerrilla civilians is actually very important to understanding this.Those bodies that Prez Molina was standing over in Nebaj in 1982 in the film wesaw, those were actually an exception to the rule, because the truth commission whichinvestigated the massacres in Guatemala found that 93 percent of the victims werecivilians killed by the Guatemalan army. But there was also some combat going on

between the army and guerrillas. And in that case, in the video we saw, the bodies

Prez Molina was standing over were guerrillas, guerrillas that the army had captured.And one of them in captivity had set off a hand grenade as a suicide act, butapparently, from what I saw and what the soldiers told me, apparently they survivedthe blast, and they were then turned over to Prez Molina for interrogation. Heinterrogated them, and then, as we saw, they turned up dead. But in the vast majorityof cases, they were civilians, completely unarmed people, who were targeted by RosMontts army for elimination.

And I asked Ros Montt about this practice on two different occasions, first in aninterview with him two months after he seized power in 1982, and then later, years

later, after he had been thrown out of power. And when I asked him in 82 about thefact that so many civilians were being killed by the army, he said, "Look, for each onewho is shooting, there are 10 who are standing behind him," meaning: Behind theguerrillas there are vast numbers of civilians. His senior aide and his spokesman, aman named Francisco Bianchi, who was sitting next to him at this interview, thenexpanded on the point. Bianchi said the guerrillaswell, the indigenous populationhe called them "indios," which is a slur in Guatemalan Spanish

AMY GOODMAN: For Indians.

ALLAN NAIRN: Yeswere collaborating with the guerrilla, therefore it wasnecessary to kill Indians. "And people would say," Bianchi continued, "'Oh, you'remassacring all these innocent Indians""innocent Indios," in his words. But Bianchithen said, "But, no, they are not innocent, because they had sold out to subversion."So this is thethis is the doctrine of killing civilians, and particularly Mayans,

because the army saw them collectively as a group. They didnt view them asindividuals, but they saw them collectively as a group as sold out to subversion. Andthis was a doctrine that the U.S. supported.

AMY GOODMAN: Journalist Allan Nairn. The interview we did was recorded last

week just before he left for Guatemala to testify in the trial against the Guatemalan


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dictator Efran Ros Montt. But at the last minute, his testimony was canceled lateyesterday. The trial was canceled. Well continue with the interview in a minute.

AMY GOODMAN: The War and Peace Report, as we continue our coverage of thehistoric trial of former U.S.-backed Guatemalan dictator Efran Ros Montt on charges

of genocide and crimes against humanity. Allan Nairn joined us in our studio lastweek before he flew to Guatemala. His testimony was canceled. The trial wascanceled last night. But I asked Allan to talk about how he managed to interview theGuatemalan dictator, Ros Montt, two months after he seized power in the 1980s.

ALLAN NAIRN: Well, he washe was giving press interviews. This was aninterview in the palace. I was there with a couple of other reporters. Ros Montt wasvery outspoken. He would go on TV and say, "Today we are going to begin amerciless struggle. We are going to kill, but we are going to kill legally." That was hisstyle, to speak directly. And its in great contrast to what hes doing today. I mean, itsvery interesting from point of view of people whove survived these kind of generalswho live on the blood of the people, not just in Guatemala but in Salvador, in EastTimor, in Indonesia, in countless countries where the U.S. has backed this kind ofterror. You have the spectacle now of this general, who once made poor peopletremble at the sight of him, at the mention of him, now hes hiding. In the trial, herefuses to talk. He will not defend himself. Hes like a common thug taken off thestreets who invokes his Fifth Amendmentinvokes his Fifth Amendment rights. But

back then, when he had the power, when no one could challenge him, he would speakfairly openly. In fact, the second time I spoke to him, a number of years after, I asked

Ros Montt whether he thought that he should be executed, whether he should be triedand executed because of his own responsibility for the highland massacres, and heresponded by jumping to his feet and shouting, "Yes! Put me on trial. Put me againstthe wall. But if youre going to put me on trial, you have to try the Americans first,including Ronald Reagan."

AMY GOODMAN: Allan Nairn, at the time in Guatemala, you not only wereinterviewing, well, now the current president, Prez Molina, who was in the highlandsat the time standing over dead bodies, but you were also talking to U.S. officials, and Iwant to go to this issue of U.S. involvement in what happened in Guatemala. Tell usabout U.S. Deputy Assistant Secretary for Inter-American Affairs Stephen Bosworth,a man you got to interview at the time during the Ros Montt years.

ALLAN NAIRN: Well, Bosworth was, at the time, an important player in U.S.Central American policy. And he, along with Elliott Abrams, for example, attackedAmnesty International when Amnesty was trying to report on the assassinations oflabor leaders and priests and peasant organizers and activists in the Mayan highlands.And he also was denying that the U.S. was giving military assistance to theGuatemalan army that was carrying out those crimes.


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AMY GOODMAN: Lets turn to the interview you did with then U.S. DeputyAssistant Secretary for Inter-American Affairs Stephen Bosworth.

STEPHEN BOSWORTH: Well, I think the important factor is that there has been,over the last six months, evidence of significant improvement in the human rightssituation in Guatemala. Since the coming into power of the Ros Montt government,the level of violence in the country, politically inspired violence, particularly in theurban areas, has declined rather dramatically. That being said, however, I think itsimportant also to note that the level of violence in the countryside continues at a levelwhich is of concern to all. And while it is difficult, if not impossible, to attributeresponsibility for that violence in each instance, it is clear that in the countryside thegovernment does indeed need to make further progress in terms of improving itscontrol over government troops.

AMY GOODMAN: You also, Allan Nairn, asked the then-U.S. Deputy AssistantSecretary for Inter-American Affairs Stephen Bosworth precisely what was the U.S.military presence and role in Guatemala. This is how Bosworth responded.

STEPHEN BOSWORTH: We have no military presence or role. We have, as a partof our diplomatic establishment, a defense attach office and a military representative.But that is the same sort of representation that we have in virtually all other countriesin the world. We do not have American trainers working with the Guatemalan army.We do not have American military personnel active in Guatemala in thatin that sortof area.

ALLAN NAIRN: There are no American trainers there?

STEPHEN BOSWORTH: No.

ALLAN NAIRN: None performing the types of functions that go on in El Salvador,for instance?

STEPHEN BOSWORTH: No, there are not.

AMY GOODMAN: That was then-U.S. Deputy Assistant Secretary for Inter-American Affairs Stephen Bosworth. Respond to what he said, and tell us who helater became, who he is today in the U.S. government.

ALLAN NAIRN: Well, first, just about everything that Bosworth said there was a lie.He said that the killings were down. In fact, they increased dramatically under RosMontt. He said, quite interestingly, that it was impossible to know and attributeresponsibility for what was happening. Well, the Conference of Catholic Bishops hadno difficulty knowing and attributing responsibility. They said that the killings havereached the extreme of genocide. They were saying this at the moment that the


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massacres were happening and at the moment that Bosworth was denying it. And theyand the survivors and the human rights groups were all clearly blaming it on the army.

And then, finally, he said that the army has to be careful to maintain control over itstroops. Well, there was a very strict control. In fact, the officers in the field in the Ixil

zone that I interviewed at the time said they were on a very short leash and that therewere only three layers of command between themselves in the field and Ros Montt.And, in fact, a few weeks earlier, there had been only two layers of command betweenthemselves and Ros Montt.

Then, Bosworth went on to say that the U.S. was not giving any military assistance toGuatemala, but I guess it was a couple weeks after that interview when we went downto Guatemala, I met a U.S. Green Beret, Captain Jesse Garcia, who was training theGuatemalan military in combat techniques, including what he called howin hiswords, "how to destroy towns." This was apart from the weapons and U.S. munitionsthat I mentioned before, apart from the CIA trainers who were working in the CIA-

built headquarters of the G-2, the military intelligence service that was doing theassassinations and disappearances.

AMY GOODMAN: The G-2 being the Guatemalan G-2. Now, today StephenBosworth is the dean of the Fletcher School at Tufts University. But before that, in2009, well, he played a key role in the Obama administration.

ALLAN NAIRN: Yes, rather than beingyou know, in what you might consider tobe a normally functioning political system, if a high government official lied like thatabout matters of such grave, life-and-death importance and was involved in the supplyof arms to terrorists, in this case the Guatemalan military, you would expect him atthe minimum to be fired and disgraced, or maybe brought up on charges. ButBosworth was actually promoted. And under the Obama administration, HillaryClinton chose him as the special envoy to North Korea. Hes been in the news a greatdeal in recent times because of his very prominent role there.

AMY GOODMAN: In 1995, Allan Nairn was interviewed on Charlie Rose about hispiece in The Nation called "CIA Death Squad," in which he described how Americans

were directly involved in killings by the Guatemalan army. He was interviewedalongside Elliott Abrams, who challenged what he was saying. Abrams had served asassistant secretary of state for human rights and humanitarian affairs under PresidentReagan from 1981 to 1985. This clip begins with Elliott Abrams.

ELLIOTT ABRAMS: Wait a minute. Were not here to refight the Cold War. Werehere to talk about, I thought, a specific case in which an allegation is being madethatof the husband of an American and, another case, an American citizen werekilled, and there was a CIA connection withallegedly with the person allegedlyinvolved in it. Now, Im happy to talk about that kind of thing. If Mr. Nairn thinks we

should have been on the other side in Guatemalathat is, we should have been infavor of a guerrilla victoryI disagree with him.


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ALLAN NAIRN: So youre then admitting that you were on the side of theGuatemalan military.

ELLIOTT ABRAMS: I am admitting that it was the policy of the United States,under Democrats and Republicans, approved by Congress repeatedly, to oppose acommunist guerrilla victory anywhere in Central America, including in Guatemala.

CHARLIE ROSE: Alright, well, I

ALLAN NAIRN: A communist guerrilla victory.

CHARLIE ROSE: Yeah, I

ALLAN NAIRN: Ninety-five percent of these victims are civilianspeasant

organizers, human rights leaders

CHARLIE ROSE: I am happy to invite both of you

ALLAN NAIRN: priestsassassinated by the U.S.-backed Guatemalan army.Lets look at reality here. In reality, were not talking about two murders, one colonel.Were talking about more than 100,000 murders, an entire army, many of its topofficers employees of the U.S. government. Were talking about crimes, and werealso talking about criminals, not just people like the Guatemalan colonels, but also theU.S. agents who have been working with them and the higher-level U.S. officials. I

mean, I think you have to beyou have to apply uniform standards. President Bushonce talked about putting Saddam Hussein on trial for crimes against humanity,

Nuremberg-style tribunal. I think thats a good idea. But if youre serious, you have tobe even-handed. If we look at a case like this, I think we have to talkstart talkingabout putting Guatemalan and U.S. officials on trial. I think someone like Mr. Abramswould be a fita subject for such a Nuremberg-style inquiry. But I agree with Mr.Abrams that Democrats would have to be in the dock with him. The Congress has

been in on this. The Congress approved the sale of 16,000 M-16s to Guatemala. In 87and 88

CHARLIE ROSE: Alright, but hold on one second. I justbeforebecause the

ALLAN NAIRN: They voted more military aid than the Republicans asked for.

CHARLIE ROSE: Again, I invite you and Elliott Abrams back to discuss what hedid. But right now, you

ELLIOTT ABRAMS: No, thanks, Charlie, but I wont accept

CHARLIE ROSE: Hold on one second. Go ahead. You want to repeat the question,of you want to be in the dock?


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ELLIOTT ABRAMS: It is ludicrous. It is ludicrous to respond to that kind ofstupidity. This guy thinks we were on the wrong side in the Cold War. Maybe he

personally was on the wrong side. I am one of the many millions of Americans whothinks we were happy to win.

CHARLIE ROSE: Alright, I dont

ALLAN NAIRN: Mr. Abrams, you were on the wrong side in supporting themassacre of peasants and organizers, anyone who dared to speak, absolutely.

CHARLIE ROSE: What I want to do is I want to ask the following question.

ALLAN NAIRN: And thats a crime. Thats a crime, Mr. Abrams, for which peopleshould be tried. U.S. laws

ELLIOTT ABRAMS: Why dont youyes, right, well put all the Americanofficials who won the Cold War in the dock.

AMY GOODMAN: That was Elliott Abramshe served as assistant secretary ofstate for human rights and humanitarian affairs under President Reagan from 81 to85debating investigative journalist Allan Nairn on the Charlie Rose show.Actually, Congressmember Robert Torricelli, then from New Jersey, before he

became senator, was also in that discussion at another point. Allan, the significance ofwhat Mr. Abrams was saying? He went on, Abrams, to deal with the Middle East.

ALLAN NAIRN: Yes. Well, hewhen I said that he should be tried by a

Nuremberg-style tribunal, he basically reacted by saying I was crazy, that this was acrazy idea that you could try U.S. officials for supplying weapons to armies that killcivilians. But people also thought that it was crazy that Ros Montt could face justicein Guatemala. But after decades of work by the survivors of his Mayan highlandmassacres, today, as we speak, Ros Montt is sitting in the dock.

AMY GOODMAN: Award-winning journalist Allan Nairn, speaking last weekbefore he flew to Guatemala. On Thursday, a landmark genocide trial against formerGuatemalan dictator Ros Montt was suspended after the trial threatened to implicatethe current president of Guatemala in the mass killings of civilians. Allan reportsGuatemalan army associates had threatened the lives of case judges and prosecutorsand that the case had been annulled after intervention by Guatemalas president,General Otto Prez Molina. Some of the video footage used in the show comes from a1983 documentary directed by Mikael Wahlforss. Well link to it atdemocracynow.org and to Allan Nairns website, allannairn.org.

That does it for our show. Juan Gonzlez will be speaking tonight in Chicago at 8:15at the Gene Siskel Film Center at North State Street and tomorrow at noon at WayneState University in Detroit at noon.


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Genocide Trial of Former Dictator Ros Montt Suspended After

Intervention by Guatemalan President

Friday, April 19, 2013

_____________________________________________________________________

A historic trial against former U.S.-backed Guatemalan dictator Efran Ros Montt oncharges of genocide and crimes against humanity came to an abrupt end Thursdaywhen an appeals court suspended the trial before a criminal court was scheduled toreach a verdict. Ros Montt on was charged in connection with the slaughter of morethan 1,700 people in Guatemalas Ixil region after he seized power in 1982. His 17-month rule is seen as one of the bloodiest chapters in Guatemalas decades-longcampaign against Maya indigenous people, which resulted in the deaths of hundredsof thousands. Thursdays decision is seen as a major blow to indigenous victims.Investigative journalist Allan Nairn reported last night Guatemalan army associateshad threatened the lives of case judges and prosecutors and that the case had beenannulled after intervention by Guatemalas president, General Otto Prez Molina.Ros Montt was the first head of state in the Americas to stand trial for genocide.

Nairn flew to Guatemala last week after he was called to testify in Ros Montts trial.He was listed by the court as a "qualified witness" and was tentatively scheduled totestify on Monday. But at the last minute, Nairn was kept off the stand "in order," hewas told, "to avoid a confrontation" with the president, General Prez Molina, and forfear that if he took the stand, military elements might respond with violence. In the1980s, Nairn extensively documented broad army responsibility for the massacres and

was prepared to present evidence that personally implicated Prez Molina, who wasfield commander during the very Mayan Ixil region massacres for which the ex-dictator, Ros Montt, had been charged with genocide.

_____________________________________________________________________

Juan Gonzalez: An historic trial against former U.S.-backed Guatemalan dictatorEfran Ros Montt on charges of genocide and crimes against humanity came to an

abrupt end Thursday when an appeals court suspended the trial before a criminal courtwas scheduled to reach a verdict. Investigative journalist Allan Nairn reported last


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night Guatemalan army associates had threatened the lives of case judges andprosecutors and that the case had been annulled after intervention by Guatemalaspresident, General Otto Prez Molina.

Ros Montt was the first head of state in the Americas to stand trial for genocide.

He was charged in connection with the slaughter of more than 1,700 people inGuatemalas Ixil region after he seized power in 1982. His 17-month rule is seen asone of the bloodiest chapters in Guatemalas decades-long campaign against Mayaindigenous people, which resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands.

On Thursday, survivors of the genocide attempted to approach Ros Montt inside thecourtroom, screaming "Murderer!"

Amy Goodman: The trial took a surprising turn last week when Guatemalas current

president, General Otto Prez Molina, was directly accused of ordering executions. Aformer military mechanic named Hugo Reyes told the court that President Prez, thenserving as an army major and using the name Tito Arias, ordered soldiers to burn and

pillage a Mayan Ixil area in the 1980s.

Were going right now to investigative journalist Allan Nairn. He flew to GuatemalaCity last week after wehe was called to testify in Ros Montts trial. He was listed

by the court as a "qualified witness" and was tentatively scheduled to testify Monday.But at the last minute he was kept off the stand "in order," he was told, "to avoid aconfrontation" with the president, General Prez Molina, and for fear that if he took

the stand, military elements might respond with violence.

In the 80s, Allan Nairn had extensively documented broad army responsibility for themassacres and was prepared to present evidence that personally implicated PrezMolina, who was field commander during the very Maya Ixil region massacres forwhich the ex-dictator, General Ros Montt, has been charged with genocide.

Allan Nairn, welcome to Democracy Now! Can you talk about the significance of thelatest developments, the annulling of the trial of Ros Montt?

Allan Nairn: Well, this trial was a breakthrough, not just for Guatemala, but for theworld. It was the first time that any nation had been able to use its domestic criminalcourts to try a former head of state for genocide. Dozens upon dozens of Mayansurvivors of the massacres risked their lives to come and testify. A massiveevidentiary record was put together, in my view, to proving a case of genocide againstGeneral Ros Montt and his co-defendant, his former intelligence chief. A verdict was

just hours away. A verdict could have come today in the trial, but yesterday it was allannulled after intervention by General Prez Molina, the current president, and theGuatemalan military and oligarchy killed it.


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Juan Gonzalez: And, Allan, can you talk about what you learned in terms of thethreats to the judges andthe judge and the prosecutor and whats been their reaction,even though theyve been sitting here now for several weeks in this trial?

Allan Nairn: In one case, one ofone of the lawyers involved in pushing the case

forward was approached by a man who offered him a million dollars if he would killthe case against Ros Montt, a million U.S. dollars. He also said he would help himlaunder the money, set up offshore bank accounts. The lawyer rejected that. The manthen took out a pistol, put the pistol on the table and said, "I know where yourchildren are." Another was approached on the street with awith a direct deaththreat. Despite those threats, though, the case went forward. And now, after[inaudible] to kill the case, the attorney general of Guatemala, the trial judge presidingin the case are both vowing to try to go forward with it. Theyre vowing to continuewith the court hearing just a couple hours from now, even though theyve been told

they cant. So a direct political confrontation has been set.

Amy Goodman: Were talking to investigative journalist Allan Nairn. Hes inGuatemala City. Were reaching him by Democracy Now! video stream. Listencarefully. Its a little difficult to make out what he is saying. But, Allan, we wanted toask about why your testimony was canceled before the overall annulment of the trialyesterday. Why was your testimony considered so dangerous?

Allan Nairn: I was given to understand that if I were called to the stand, two thingswould happen. First, President Prez Molina would intervene to shut down the trial.

And secondly, there could be violence, particularly from retired military. The reasonwas that, as you mentioned in the introduction, one witness had already implicatedPrez Molina in the massacres. He was a field commander at that time. After thattestimony, Prez Molina called in the attorney general, and the word went out that ifhe was mentioned again in the trial, if his name came up once, he would immediatelyshut it down. Soand they knew that I could implicate Prez Molina further, becauseI had met him in the highlands during the massacres when he was operating under acode name. And I interviewed soldiers under his command who described how, underorders, they executed and tortured civilians.

Juan Gonzalez: And, Allan, in terms of theof Prez Molina himself, you have asituation here, obviously, after the Central America accords, when some sort ofrelative peace came to the region. How did Prez Molina rise to power, being one ofthe underlings of Ros Montt and the military that visited such carnage and suchdestruction on the people of Guatemala?

Allan Nairn: Well, the reason the military was doing those massacres in the firstplace was to preserve a political and economic system under which there was 80percent attrition in the area around Nebaj, which is where Prez Molina was stationedand where, at the same time, there were world-class rich people running the

plantations, the banks, the industries. Those massacres were basically successful in


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crushing the population and crushing any resistance and in maintaining that system.And within that system, Prez Molina was able to rise. He became a colonel. He

became the head of the G-2 military intelligence service during a time [inaudible]

Amy Goodman: Were having a little trouble hearing, Allan.

Allan Nairn:placed on the CIA payroll. At one point, an office under his controlwas implicated in theat one point, an office under Prez Molinas control wasimplicated in the assassination of a judge. He rose to general, and he was able to

become president. Thats thethats the Guatemalan system. Yet, remarkably, evengiven that system, this movement from below of massacre survivors who refused togive up, who insisted on trying to bring generals to justice, was able to generate thistrial, aided by people of integrity who had found their way into the Guatemalan

judiciary and prosecution system, and a trial was begun. They heard massive amountsof evidence. I believe it was on the verge of giving a verdict, but then, at the lastminute, Prez Molina and the powers that be intervened.

Amy Goodman: Very quickly, Allan, we just have less than a minute, the attorneygeneral is a woman. The judge is a woman. They are saying theyre going to moveforward with this case, although it has been anulled, with a trial today? And whatabout protests outside?

Allan Nairn: Well, protests are planned outside the court. The judge, YassminBarrios, and the attorney general, Claudia Paz y Paz, both say theyre going to defythis order to kill the case, which is extraordinary. You know, this indicates, I think,that Guatemala has reached a higher level of civilization than the United States has.Even though this case was killed in the end, its inconceivable that in the UnitedStates a U.S. attorney, say, could indict a former U.S. president, could indict a GeorgeW. Bush for what he did in Iraq and/or Afghanistan, or could indict an Obama, andthat this could proceed to trial and that massive amounts of evidence could be heard.Thats not yet conceivable in the American legal system, but it happened here inGuatemala, and it almost succeeded. It came very close. And now theres going to bea popular reaction to try to continue that fight for law enforcement and justice.

Amy Goodman: And is it possible the trial will continue?Allan Nairn: Excuse me?

Amy Goodman: Is it possible the trial will continue?

Allan Nairn: Well, I guess its possible, if JudgeJudge Barrios and the prosecutorsare physically allowed into the courtroom, that they could try to have the trial. But the

powers that be above them have now banned it, have now prohibited it. Ros Monttand his lawyers may not show up. I dont know what will happen. This is a real

political crisis for Guatemala.


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Amy Goodman: Investigative journalist Allan Nairn, speaking to us from GuatemalaCity. When we come back, we sat down with Allan before he left to go through thehistory of this trial and also play the videotape of his interview with the current

president back more than 20 years ago when he was a major under Ros Montt, on

trial for genocide. Stay with us.


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Allan Nairn: After Ros Montt Verdict, Time for U.S. to Account

for Its Role in Guatemalan Genocide

Wednesday, May 15, 2013

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Following last weeks guilty verdict in Guatemalas historic genocide trial, reporterAllan Nairn says the United States should follow Guatemalas lead and indict theReagan administration officials who supported the genocide under General EfranRos Montt. "All of [these crimes] were crimes not just of General Ros Montt, butalso of the U.S. government," Nairn says. Former President Ronald Reagan oncecalled Ros Montt "a man of great personal integrity." After the verdict, JudgeYassmin Barrios ordered the attorney general to launch an immediate investigation of"all others" connected to the crimes.

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Amy Goodman: As we wrap up, investigative journalist Allan Nairn, thecompensation end of the trial, what you feel needs to be done now? You have coveredthis throughout these decades.

Allan Nairn: Well, all of the crimes that Rigoberta Mench just described werecrimes not just of General Ros Montt, but also of the U.S. government. The U.S.

prosecutors in Washington should immediately convene a grand jury with twomissions: first, coming to the aid of the Guatemalan attorney general, who has just

been ordered by the court to investigate all others involved in Ros Montts crimes, byreleasing all classified U.S. documents about what happened during the slaughter,which U.S. personnel were involved, providing to the Guatemalan attorney general alist of all Guatemalan army officials and security force officials who were on the

payroll of the American CIA, and then proceeding to issue indictments against U.S.officials who acted in the role of accessory or accomplice to the crimes for whichRos Montt has already been convicted.

Amy Goodman: And those people, you believe, would include?

Allan Nairn: The top officials of the Reagan administration who made the policyPresident Reagan is deceased, but his top aides, including Elliott Abrams and many

others, are still alive; the U.S. CIA personnel on the ground who worked within theG2, the military intelligence unit that coordinated the assassinations and


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disappearances; the U.S. military attachs who worked with the Guatemalan generalsto develop this sweep-and-massacre strategy in the mountains. There would behundreds of U.S. officials who were complicit in this and should be subpoenaed,called before a grand jury and subjected to indictment. And the U.S. should be readyto extradite them to Guatemala to face punishment, if the Guatemalan authorities are

able to proceed with this. And General Prez Molina is one who should be included.And Prez Molina, himself, was among

Amy Goodman: The president.

Allan Nairn: Yesis among those who was on the CIA payroll.

Amy Goodman: We will leave it there. Allan Nairn, investigative journalist,Rigoberta Mench, Nobel Peace laureate, we thank you so much for being with us inMexico City.


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40 Years After Chile Coup, Family of Slain Singer Victor Jara Sues

Alleged Killer in U.S. Court

Monday, September 9, 2013

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This week marks the 40th anniversary of whats known as the other 9/11: September11, 1973, when a U.S.-backed military coup ousted Chiles democratically elected

president Salvador Allende and ushered in a 17-year repressive dictatorship led byGeneral Augusto Pinochet. Were joined by Joan Jara, the widow of Chilean singerVctor Jara, who has just filed a civil lawsuit in U.S. court against the former military

officer who allegedly killed Jara 40 years ago. Jaras accused killer, Pedro Barrientos,has lived in the United States for roughly two decades and is now a U.S. citizen.Jaras family is suing him under federal laws that allow U.S. courts to hear abouthuman rights abuses committed abroad. Last year, Chilean prosecutors chargedBarrientos and another officer with Jaras murder, naming six others as accomplices.We also speak with Almudena Bernabeu, an attorney with Center for Justice andAccountability, who helped file the Jara familys lawsuit last week. "I saw literallyhundreds of bodies that were piled up in what was actually the parking place of themorgue," Joan Jara says of finding her husbands body 40 years ago. "I recognizedhim. I saw what had happened to him. I saw the bullet wounds. I saw the state of his

body. I consider myself one of the lucky ones in the sense that I had to face in that

moment what had happened to Victor. I could [later] give my testimony with all theforce of what I felt in that moment and not the horror, which is much worse, ofnever knowing what happened to your loved one. That happened to so many families,so many women who have spent these 40 years looking for their loved ones who weremade to disappear."

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AMY GOODMAN: Today we look at another September 11th. It was 40 years ago

this week, September 11, 1973, that General Augusto Pinochet ousted Chilesdemocratically elected president, Salvador Allende, in a U.S.-backed military coup.


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The coup began a 17-year repressive dictatorship during which more than 3,000Chileans were killed. Pinochets rise to power was backed by then-President Richard

Nixon and his secretary of state and national security adviser, Henry Kissinger.

In 1970, the CIAs deputy director of plans wrote in a secret memo, quote, "It is firm

and continuing policy that Allende be overthrown by a coup. ... It is imperative thatthese actions be implemented clandestinely and securely so that the USG [thats theU.S. government] and American hand be well hidden," unquote. That same year,President Nixon ordered the CIA to, quote, "make the economy scream" in Chile to,quote, "prevent Allende from coming to power or [to] unseat him."

After the 1973 coup, General Pinochet remained a close U.S. ally. He was defeated in1988 referendum and left office in 1990. In 1998, Pinochet was arrested in London ontorture and genocide charges on a warrant issued by a Spanish judge, Baltasar Garzn.British authorities later released Pinochet after doctors ruled him physically andmentally unfit to stand trial.

Last week, Chiles judges issued a long-awaited apology to the relatives of loved oneswho went missing or were executed during the Pinochet dictatorship. This is JudgeDaniel Urrutia.

JUDGE DANIEL URRUTIA: [translated] We consider it appropriate and necessary.We understand, for some citizens, obviously, its too late, but nothing will ever be toolate to react to what may happen in the future.

AMY GOODMAN: The relatives of some victims have rejected the belated apologyand called for further investigations into deaths and disappearances during thedictatorship. Chilean President Sebastin Piera said the countrys courts had failed touphold the constitution and basic rights.

PRESIDENT SEBASTIN PIERA: [translated] The judiciary did not rise up totheir obligations or challenges, and could have done much more, because, byconstitutional mandate, its their duty to protect the rights of the people, to protecttheir livesfor example, reconsidering the appeals, which they had previouslymassively rejected as unconstitutional.

AMY GOODMAN: Meanwhile, on Sunday thousands of Chileans took to the streets

of Santiago to mark the 40th anniversary of the military coup and remember thethousands who disappeared during the brutal regime that followed. This is thepresident of the Families of Executed Politicians group, Alicia Lira.

ALICIA LIRA: [translated] Forty years since the civil military coup, the issue ofhuman rights, the violations during the dictatorship are still current. This denial of

justice, there are more than 1,300 processes open for 40 years, for 40 years continuingthe search for those who were arrested, who disappeared, who were executed withoutthe remains handed back. Why dont they say the truth? Why dont they break their

pact of silence?

AMY GOODMAN: Just last week, the wife and two daughters of the legendaryChilean folk singer Vctor Jara filed a civil lawsuit in U.S. court against the former


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military officer they say killed Jara almost exactly 40 years ago. Vctor Jara was shotto death in the midst of the 1973 U.S.-backed coup. First his hands were smashed sohe could no longer play the guitar, it is believed. Jaras accused killer, PedroBarrientos, has lived in the United States for roughly two decades and is now a U.S.citizen. Jaras family is suing him under federal laws that allow U.S. courts to hear

about human rights abuses committed abroad. Last year, Chilean prosecutors chargedBarrientos and another officer with Jaras murder, naming six others as accomplices.

Well, today well spend the hour with the loved ones of those who were killed underPinochet, and the attorneys who have helped them seek justice. First were joined byJoan Jara. She is the widow of Chilean singer Vctor Jara. She is the author ofAnUnfinished Song: The Life of Victor Jara, first published in 1984.

We welcome you back toDemocracy Now!

JOAN JARA: Thank you. Thank you.

AMY GOODMAN: Its great to have you with us and in studio here in New York, asvictims and those who have worked for justice in Chile gather for this 40thanniversary of the September 11th coup.

JOAN JARA: Indeed.

AMY GOODMAN: Talk about the lawsuit you have just filed.

JOAN JARA: Well, this lawsuit, which is for the central justice and accountability, isa civil lawsuit, but theour aim is not to receive pecuniary, because this doesnt helpat all. Its to reinforce the extradition petition, which was approved by the ChileanSupreme Court and is now in United States territory. Its somehow to support that andto appeal to public opinion here in the United States. We know we havethere aremany people here. In repeated visits here, I have met so many friends who havecondemned the coup on the 11th of September, 1973. And I appeal to all the peoplewho listen to Vctors songs, who realizeand for all the victims of Pinochet, fortheir support and appeal to theiryour own government to remit a reply positively tothis extradition request.

AMY GOODMAN: After break, well also be joined by your lawyer to talk more

about the lawsuit. But describe what happened on September 11, 1973. Where wereyou? Where was Vctor?

JOAN JARA: Yeah, well, we were both at home with our two daughters. There wassomehow a coup in the air. We had been fearing that there might be a military coup.And on that morning, together, Vctor and I listened to Allendes last speech andheard all the radios, thewho supported Salvador Allende, falling off the air as, one

by one, being replaced by military marches.

Vctor was due to go to the technical university, his place of work, where Allende wasdue to speak to announce a plebiscite at 11:00, and Vctor was to sing there, as he did.

And he went out that morning. It was the last time I saw him. I stayed at home, heardof the bombing of the Moneda Palace, heard and saw the helicopters machine gun


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firing over Allendes residence. And then began the long wait for Vctor to come backhome.

AMY GOODMAN: And how long did you wait?

JOAN JARA: I waited a week, not knowing really what had happened to him. I got amessage from him from somebody who had been in the stadium with him, wasnt surewhat was really happening to him. But my fears were confirmed on the 11th ofSeptemberwell, Im sorry, on the 18th of September, Chile National Day, when ayoung man came to my house, said, "Please, I need to talk to you. Im a friend. Ive

been working in the city morgue. Im afraid to tell you that Vctors body has beenrecognized," because it was a well-knownhis was a well-known face. And he said,"You must come with me and claim his body; otherwise, they will put him in acommon grave, and he will disappear."

So then I accompanied this young man to the city morgue. We entered by a side

entrance. I saw the hundreds of bodies, literally hundreds of bodies, that were highpiled up in what was actually the parking place, I think, of the morgue. And I had tolook for Vctors body among a long line in the offices of the city morgue, recognizedhim. I saw what had happened to him. I saw the bullet wounds. I saw the state of his

body.

And I consider myself one of the lucky ones, in the sense that I had to face at thatmoment thatwhat had happened to Vctor, and I could give my testimony with allthe force of what I felt in that moment, and not that horror, which is much worse, ofnever knowing what happened to your loved one, as what happened to so manyfamilies, so many women, who have spent these 40 years looking for their loved oneswho were made to disappear.

AMY GOODMAN: Because he was so well known, there have been many storiesabout his death. Some said because he was this famous folk singer, guitarist, his handswere cut off.

JOAN JARA: No.

AMY GOODMAN: Others said they were smashed. How did you seewhat did yousee when you saw his body?

JOAN JARA: No, Ithis is not true. There was this invention of myths that I people,I suppose, thought would help. The truth was bad enough. There was no need toinvent more horrors. Vctors hands were not cut off. When I saw his body, his handswere hanging at a strange angle. I mean, his whole body was bruised and batteredwith bullet wounds, but I didnt touch his hands. It looked as though his wrists were

broken.

AMY GOODMAN: How long had Vctor played guitar? How long had he beensinging?


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JOAN JARA: Oh, how long had he been singing? Since he was small. Since hewashe didnt really learn to play the guitar until he was adolescent, but his motherwas a folk singer, and he learned from her, yeah.

AMY GOODMAN: And how did you meet?

JOAN JARA: We met because in the University of Chile weVctor was a studentin the theater school, and I was a dancer in the national ballet, but I also gave classesin the theater school. Thats how I met him. He was an excellent student. He was atleast the best of his course. But we actually got together after, later, when I wasrecovering from when I was sort of ill, and he heard I was ill. He came to see me witha little bunch of flowers that I think he took out of the park, because he was penniless.

AMY GOODMAN: And you have two daughters together?

JOAN JARA: No, not together. My first daughter is actually the daughter of my first

husband, whom I had separated from, but she was very, very small when Vctor cameto see us that day. She was only a year old, slightly less than a year old. And shealways felt that Vctor was her father, and Vctor always felt that heshe was herdaughter. Shehesorry, Im not used to speaking English. So, they were very, veryclose.

AMY GOODMAN: And the hundreds of bodies you saw in this morgue. How manyof them were identified?

JOAN JARA: Cant tell you that. This particular young man who worked in theidentification, civilcivil registryI dont know what you call ithe wasoverwhelmed with what he had to do. I cantI cant tell you. I cantI cant tell.

AMY GOODMAN: Were you able to claim his body and bury him?

JOAN JARA: I wasI was one of the lucky ones. I was able to claim his body, butwe had to take it immediately to the cemetery and inter it in a niche high up in the

back wall of the cemetery. There could be no funeral. And after that, I had to go homeand tell my daughters what had happened.

AMY GOODMAN: Were talking with Joan Jara, the widow of Vctor Jara. And

were going to continue with her, as well as her lawyer. Shes just brought suit againstthe man she believes was responsible for his murder, among others. Were also goingto be joined by Joyce Horman, another widow of the coup. Her husband, CharlesHorman, American freelance journalist, was also disappeared and killed during thecoup. This isDemocracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. Its

been 40 years since the September 11, 1973, coup that overthrew the firstdemocratically elected leader of Chile, Salvador Allende, who died in the palace thatday as the Pinochet forces rose to power. Stay with us.

AMY GOODMAN: "Vivir en Paz," by Vctor Jara, the Chilean singer, songwriter,tortured and executed during the Chilean coup of Salvador Allende, September 11,

1973. This week marks the 40th anniversary the U.S.-backed coup. You can also go toour website at democracynow.org to seehighlights from our coverageover the years.
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This isDemocracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. Im AmyGoodman.

Our guest is Joan Jara, the widow of the legendary Chilean singer Vctor Jara. Lastweek she filed a civil lawsuit in U.S. court against the former military officer they say

killed Jara almost exactly 40 years ago. Vctor Jara was shot to

Democracy Now! All the interviews republished on prismaprisma.net

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