FIST I understand you' re releasing a Cri-

DOUG There's some studio songs andlive tracks that were never released. I wasgoing to add these to the CD. It's peculiar,whilst listening to them, I was in Paris, and theQueen drove by with the Duke of Edinburgh.I looked up, there were no crowds, just aphalanx of motorcyclists with them. I couldn' thear anything apart from all this primitivePunk Rock and there she was. It was just likea Sex Pistols advert. Atter that I thought,; "Idon't want to do it." There's this overridingfeeling of horribleness about the group. I feelvery unsure about it. Not only that, but I haveto contact all the other people, outside of

sis CD?

SIS ?

can be born bad.

Tony of course.FIST Did you fall out then?DOUG It's not that, but fifteen years of

leading one's life without having seeing them.It seems irrelevant. I don't want to devoteenergy on something, that was so long ago.There was also a bad aura about the group,if that doesn't sound too stupid. I dislikehandling it. I was thinking back over thearchive material and I just remember badthings happening. I don't want to resurrectthat. It may not manifest itself.

FIST What were your intentions with Cri-

DOUG it's fairly straight forward. Wewanted to be a political Punk group. Tony andI were both involved in far left politics. Ratherthan just being a pop group that espousedpolitics, like The Clash, who at the time wethought were genuine, we wanted to be in-volved in things, and do songs. We thought itwas a good idea to do this "agit prop group,and it would be even better if we were goodat it. We wanted to change the world. At theend of it all, both Tony and I realised that weonly wanted to change it because we couldn' tstand it. Really it was an inverted form ofFascism. We were always being called RedFascists by the Labour or Communist Party.They were probably right. I realise that Icouldn't change other people, only myselfand those close to me. That was the end ofthe matter. Now I think, if I don't like them thenfuck 'em. I'm not wasting my life on thosepeople. Back then I didn't like the state of theworld, that's why I was involved in Trotskyistpolitics. I felt quite serious about it from 17until 23. Eventually I felt disillusioned workingwith the people involved, because they werenot good people to have in control. BasicallyI see humanity as a seething mass of Insanitythat has to be kept in check. It's not basicallygood. It's not changed by society, it caninfluence certain aspects of it. I also think you

FIST Bad, is a cultural idea though.DOUG Yes but if I drew a chopper and cut

off your arm without any reason, withoutfeeling any remorse, that's bad. The thingsI' ve seen in Croatia are bad, and beyond myimagination. It's not an abstract quantity, itexists, in whatever Nationality. Having seena war... when groups play with that imagery,I find it kind of nothing now, pathetic. I don' tthink your record covers are shocking! It's aneveryday occurrence for some people andthe ordinariness of it makes it more vile.Slitting open somebodies guts and torturingthem just because they are a different Nation-ality is insane. It's real, it's not a game or anart event, just disgusting. Even the idea ofupsetting the order of the day is dangerous.The order of the day is the best we are goingto get. IJnfortunately it probably doesn't con-trol people enough, in terms of the wrongpeople. The fact that Fear stalks the streetsthese days.

from Crisis ?DOUG When we split, Tony and I said we

would work again but that we needed abreak: We started up some months later.

that?

Then Patrick came along. Our first gig I think,was at Mallet Street with the Birthday Party.Death In June were avowed not to playpolitical benefits. Crisis played more than it' sfair share of them. In 1981 all that strongfeeling about things had gone. We werecompletely disillusioned with politics by then.

FIST The lyrics deal with pathos. Is thishow you see them?

DOUG People get the weird impressionthat I'm looking back to a mediaeval timewhen everyone was chivalrous and noble, orthinking I'm looking at Nazi Germany whereeverything was wonderfully bleak, austereand committed. It's not like that at all. If thepresent isn't as what it could be in my per-sonal life, then maybe that pathos comesthrough I don't analyse things like that. If Ithink I' ve articulated truthfully then I'm happy.I don't sit down and write; "things ain't whatthey used to be. What can I write today?" It' sa bit sad that, isn't it? The best group I' venever be in is "The Pet Shop Boys". It wouldmake much more sense. When I'm fifty I'mstill going to be asked If I'm still a Nazi OccultChild Molester. I will never be deemed as JoeNormal. It haunts me wherever I go in theworld. I' ll never be able to sit with my memoirsand nice cosy friends around a fireside oneevening and go, "look at these press cuttings,aren't they lovely?". It's too late, the die iscast and I'm quite happy about it.

FIST Are you a misanthropist?DOUG Some people literally, are bred for

work, and that is what they are good for andbreeding. That's why we' ve had a surfeit ofnot very good people over the past say,seventy years, especially during this dec-ade. The Two World Wars have culled toomany of the good. We are left with the rest,hence the gradual disintegration of the soulof humanity. The useless people haveoverbred in this century. The huge mechani-sation has meant there is no real need fordrone beings anymore. The wrong type ofperson tends to breed like rabbits and they goon and on. Now we are surrounded by thisuntermensch, ignorant lumpen people. Marxrecognised this, the problem breeds. Theorder as it stands is cockeyed.

FIST Hasn't the past has always been like

DOUG Apparently yes, but I don't know.I can't remember living in the past so I don' tknow what it was like. It seems to be par-ticularly bad at the moment. It's not just mesaying these misanthropic quotes. I hear lotsof people saying it. It is common place, sothere must be something happening now,that people are taking note of. Nothing isbeing done about it.

FIST There is always a problem as to whois going to be doing the culling?

DOUG I think no one is capable of doinganything really. Basically this country hasturned into an illiterate septic isle hasn't it?

FIST Maybe it always has been though?DOUG I remember literacy being better

some years ago. As an example, peoplecan't add up in shops without a calculator.Even then they can't do it very well. Whenthey write the bill out, a monkey may have

FIST How did Death ln June come about

better.

of their life force.

written it. This is on the news anyway, thedecline in education. I spent most of my timeaway from school. I loathed it but I had anatural leaning to educating myself. I didn' tlike being taught anything. The only goodyears I had there, were the last three, whenI knew I was going to get out. Then I enjoyedmyself a little bit more. I spent most of mytime away. It's to do with self motivation. A lotof peopie aren't self motivated, they iikebeing stupid. If you like being stupid, in thedarkness about things, it doesn't necessarilymean about bad adding up or bad spelling,you should make an effort about it. Whatevercrap job!'ve been in, I' ve always tried to do itas best as possible, and I' ve had plenty ofthem before doing this. There's no self re-spect anymore, there's no wanting to doanything good. It's part and parcel of theirproblem, and mine, because I have to livewith it. There are constant complaints aboutquality of work. Things could be infinitely

FIST In what way though?DOUG People could be nicer, more aware

FIST There are vested interests in stulti-fying intelligence.

DOUG Yes, but I come from an ordinaryworking class background and I seem to beable to think about other things. I don't meanthe working class as a whole. I'm talkingabout the mass as a whole. They are particu-larly stupid, the masses. That extendsthroughout the classes in this country. Theyall love being in their own ghetto.

FIST Having lived in an environment inCambridge and seeing the middle and upperclasses I don't think they have much to offer,intelligence wise.

DOUG Exactly, they' re just as horrible.FIST To think that those people have

power over some aspect of our lives.DOUG It extends across the range. That

is why I say it is the mass and not theproletariat, per se. It's right across society,that's why it's worrying.

FIST It was like that before the First WorldWar surely?

DOUG I don't know. I don't think we are acountry now capable of building an Empirethat ruled over half the world. There musthave been something there to achieve that.This want for exploration and the unknown. Ican't see any of that in our so called leadersor anyone who would dare attempt to thinkabout something like that, regardless of thepros and cons of it.

FIST A lot of it was spearheaded byindividual companies such as the East Indiacompany.

DOUG At least those people were thereand doing that kind of thing. I can't think ofReebok doing it. Although I suppose theymay be doing it in their own sort of way. That' sinteresting, even now. On the adverts on TV,it's either Reebok or Nike saying "Don't play,compete." Win no matter whatever. Great It' sthe complete antithesis of what sport is sup-posed to be about. You may as well cheatand fuck them. As long as you' re wearing ourshoes it doesn't matter. That's exactly what I

?

ation?

"Brown Book".

hate about society. It's what goes down reallygreat though.

FIST The spirit of the eighties.DOUG It's the spirit of now, the nineties,

the eighties were the lead up.FIST How did you break out of that situ-

DOUG Because I'm a naturally soulful,spirited type of person who rises above eve-rything else. (LALIGHS)

FIST So it's something you' re born with,genetics?

DOUG Either that or soul implantation. Ibelieve that life forces are flying around allthe time any way. Once you' re born I believethat something flies into that person. I cansee bits of me in my parents but not a lot. Iwouldn't say genetics, but I don't know any-thing beyond my parents, like my grandpar-ents. One was killed in the First World Warand the other disappeared. I only know aboutmy immediate family. In my experience somepeople can be so different from the others. Ithink there is a strong case for soul implants,for want of a better word. It enters you be-cause you are the next available device.

FIST It takes things away from free will.It's a pre ordination of people.

DOUG I believe in destiny, within whichyou do have a degree of free will, but only somuch. "The Wall of Sacrifice" was namedwhen I was in a dream. I was taken into ahouse that was on fire, where one of the wallswas covered in ice, through which there wasfrozen blood. I could see the brick work throughthe blood. As it melted, depending how itwent, that would be how your life would go.Therefore it depended how you directed theflame. That was your life, the 'Wall of sacri-fice". It corresponds to the "Web of Wyrd"which is the North European idea where youare stuck within a web, but you can struggleto get out of it. There is an element of free willwithin that.

FIST You use a lot of Fascist imagery.How does that fit in with what you are saying

DOUG Such as?FIST The Horst Wessel song on the

DOUG That was really used as a trap. Allthe stuff had been going on. No matter whatI did I was accused of being this, that and theother, by the music press. I thought, alright,let's go all out. On that album I went forcontradictions. On "Brown Book" first of all,the title was taken from a book printed by theEast Germans, which listed all the top Nazisand ex SS men that were in power, either ingovernment or in the big industrial firmsworking in West Germany. I think in othercountries they had the "Grey Book", and the"Black Book" in Russia, or they did have. Ichose to call it that because as you know,Brown Book equals Brown shirts, but in factit's an East German Communist book. In asimilar way I took an album title from the film"The World That Summer". This deals withthe dilemma a part Jewish, Hitler Youth, whofinds himself, belonging to neither. Throughoutthe film he becomes nullified to everyone,

Deaths Head?

having no emotions at the end. There is asegment of the film where a Brown Shirt, thisis 1936 post purge of 34 (Night of the longKnives where Hitler and the SS annihilatedthe Socialist element of the Nazi movement).He's talking about a variety of matters andtaking an idiotic stand on some things thatwere completely anti SA and much more SS.He accused the SS of being homosexualswhich is what the SA were infamous for. Thatwas juxtaposed, that speech, by the halfJewish grandmother saying that life was likejumping from one ice float to another, witheach jump they get smaller and smaller. Theend is inevitable. I mixed those two thingswith the Horst Weasel song. It was a contra-diction. That's why I used it. It became bannedin Germany l ike n o bodies bus iness(LALIGHS). That's because people didn't lis-ten to it fully and hear all the other voicesgoing on. I like the idea of people falling intothat trap. It's more filmic. It's the only time I' vebeen deliberately provocative. I thought ofthat, because an incident did occur when Ilived in Tuffnel Park. A man came in oneevening and was so taken in by my knowl-edge, he did an impromptu version of "HorstWessel", in German. It was one of thosemystical experiences in real life. I thought I'mgoing to have to get that down some time. Hedoes it at parties, his party trick. Which par-ties, who am I to say? (LAUGHS)

FIST What about other images like the

DOUG The six is taken for June, and theDeath's head is a sign of commitment, onevision, nothing else will be tolerated. It seemedthe strongest symbol. It's been used through-out Europe for a long time, not necessarilymonopolised by the SS. They are the mostfamous exploiters of it in the recent past. TheBritish Army used it and the YugoslavChetniks. It's a very dramatic, easily recog-nised symbol. I think it's beautiful.

FIST A reference to nihilism?DOUG I think I have an empathy to Fas-

cism, although politically I am a libertarian. Itwas imagery Death in June were akin to.Therefore it was embraced.

FIST What do you mean by emotionalempathy to fascism?

DOUG Well, I understand it. It is probablythe most natural politics of humanity

FIST Do you think so?DOUG Well people fight against it.FIST Have you read the book by Willhelm

DOUG No it's a load of old rubbish.FIST You wouldn't agree that the family is

the nucleus....(of Fascism).DOUG No absolutely not. It's just a breed-

ing place. It's not the nucleus of anything. Ilike the idea of the Kibbutz system. It de-pends on the people. The only thing thefamily is the nucleus of is unhappiness as faras I am concerned. It's just another part ofsociety. The individual is the nucleus of eve-rything, such as the soul, the spirit and god.I am pleased the Americans burnt his books.He was a homophobic nutcase. The onlypsychologist I have any time for is Jung.

FIST Reich said that it is in the famitythat

Reich?

Klaus Barbie?

people learn to accept authority unquestion-ingly and based on irrational authority.

DOUG Do you think that is good or bad?FIST in the way that most individuals are

stifled within the structure, I think it's bad.DOUG What was he suggesting other-

wise ? Just to go out and fuck as manywomen as possible.

FIST That could be a practical conse-quence of his philosophy

DOUG I don't think Reich had any biginsights to offer, apart from a name. I wonderwhat he called his third child?

FIST He's coming back into fashion withthe New Age ideas.

DOUG New Age is not very new age at all.I' ve heard some of the things and they' retotally ridiculous and reactionary. Peasantmentality, I don't want to go around wearinga dress with crosses on the front. I probablydid that in a previous life (LAUGHS). ThomasHardy wrote novels about me (LAUGHS)

FIST What about the song you did about

DOUG He was a symbol. We were doinga few dates in France and we went to play inLyon, where he was imprisoned. The FrenchResistance make themselves out to be An-gels. They were like the Gestapo to their ownkind. They executed a quarter of a millionpeople after the war, which is more peoplethan he was claimed to have killed. When. weplayed in Paris and Lyon there were theseodd rumours that we had tried to contactKlaus Barbie in prison, and he inspired thesong. I was going to use him as a symbolanyway. Everyone has the potential to be aKlaus Barbie, he was fairly ciinical aboutthings. He wasn't as bad as some torturerscould be, when you start hearing storiesabout El Salvador, Croatia,Bosnia or North-ern Ireland. That is happening all around us,now. He's just a symbol of all that and alsobecause of the weird rumours that weregoing around Lyon, which were not true.There were a few other things on the news atthe time. Humanity is a wonderful subjectisn't it, worth cultivating? '

FIST Do you think you were successful inthe way you used Fascist imagery?

DOUG Yes, Death ln June has alwaysdone it with impeccable good taste, and witha proper understanding of the aesthetics andthe symbolism behind such things. Obvi-ously people have fallen into the trap oftaking it on a surface value. That is theirproblem. I' ve never been interested in ap-peasing people who want to accept that blackis black and white is white. There is a spec-trum in between.

FIST What do you find interesting aboutthe sexual aspect of uniforms. They seem tobe a feature on some of your albums.

DOUG I find uniforms sexually attractive.There is an inherent power in then anyway.That runs throughout people's strands ofsexuality. People are attracted to them.

FIST But aren't people indoctrinated intothat Power aspect of them, equating it withsexy ?

DOUG I think one's attractions within sexare always in flux. I know that my tastes within

trust

context.

my sexual bracket alter, and have changed.Things that I never believed I would findattractive. I'm not sure about that, I don' tknow. I think one can be inherently attractedto things and not necessarily indoctrinated. Ithink there is something deeper where itstrikes a key. It's why some people likerubber or leather. Rubber does nothing forme. I find the smell revolting, even the smellof a condom I have to wash off my hands. Ican understand it about leather. People getexcited by all kinds of stuff. One of the big eyeopeners to me was, basically I'm gay, pickingup one of these big butch Irish lorry drivers,built like a brick shithouse. A combinationbetween an SS man and an IRA Provo. Hetook his clothes off and was wearing wom-en's underwear. The image was blown com-pletely. He couldn't have sex without wearingthem. People's sexuality to me is a neverending source of enlightenment. (LAUGHS).I don't know how it gets to that position.

FIST Well uniforms are equated withpower, as is sex.

DOUG Yes, I agree with you there. It tookme a long time to come to terms with that,because I never really thought like that. It isa question of subjugation and domination,always. Those words can be taken out of

FIST The extreme version being rape.DOUG That is total domination.FIST Whereas S8 M has an element of

DOUG That's the only time I' ve beeninvolved in anything like that is where therehas been complete trust and understanding.

FIST I'rn sure there has to be otherwiseyou' ll never be su)e you' re going to get out of

DOUG (LAUGHS)

FIST The melodies you use seem almostchildlike in their structure. Is this somethingthat you worked upon?

DOUG It just happens. You work to adegree on some things and not on others,whatever is appropriate for a particular song.

FIST Have you delved into your own pastDOUG Not particularly, it's just some-

thing that takes it's natural course. Not inten-tionally have I ever thought of childhood at all.It's just things I like.

DOUG What were you thinking of, some-thing like "Rocking Horse Night" ?

FIST Most of the songs seem to havesimple rhythms.

DOUG Maybe those are the most effec-tive things. It leads back to "less is more." Tokeep to the purity of whatever you' re trying todo, or articulate. That's one of the reasonswhy we' ve resorted more to the AcousticGuitar, just to keep to that spirit. If it doessound childlike, it sounds an immediate note.It could sound crap because it is so simple(LAUGHS).

FIST Why do you use the Acoustic guitarinstead of the Electric?

DOUG I think it was always there. On the"Guilty Have No Pride", it's just me on theAcoustic Guitar playing that riff and Tonyplaying bass with a load of echo on. I' ve

always liked that sound, because it is emo-tive in itself. I think one of the best sound-tracks artists ever is Ennio Morricone. Some-thing dramatic could be one string beingplucked, then suddenly, a couple of bells.When I began to work on my own, it began tolean towards that. The first album I did likethat was "The World That Summer", whichwas more layered and produced. If you startadding too many things, it becomes morecluttered and swamps the original thought.One of the best songs I think I have everwritten, is "Fall Apart". That's my vocal andguitar. I went away to think what I could do toit, but there wasn't much more. I listened to iton the roof out here at 2.03 p.m. and aLondon Station played "To Drown A Rose". Isat there thinking, I recognise this tune, andthen I realised it was me. I think it was the lasttime I was ever played on the Radio. It mustbe a sign.

be a more positive feeling about the work.Don't you think so?

DOUG You could have said anything andI have to respond to it. I don't write it from anyone particular point of view. I see it as aculmination of three years work, and my bestto date. I was very happy with it. The monthsNovember 91 until 93 have been the busiestyear the band has known. It's also been thebest.

FIST In what way?DOUG ln terms of doing things again. I

rejuvenated the group after a quiet period,and hard times in retrospect. This is outsideof the things I had been doing with Boyd Ricewith "Music, Martinis, and Misanthropy". Iwasn't sure if I could do something newagain. It happened, and I thought I did verywell. I hadn't played the CD for months untilthey played it in a Radio Station, in Prague.It gave me that feeling of detachment, as if Ihadn't done it. It seemed fresh and I liked it.I don't know how to respond to "fatalism". I'mprobably more fatalistic now than ever be-fore. Where's the jolly optimism then ?(Laughs)

FIST In the lyrics?DOUG There's nothing wrong with jolly

optimism. I didn't think I could write anythinglike "TRUE WEST" or whatever they arecalled.

FIST No it's hardly that. Some of the lyrics"Because of him the World has got a friend"

DOUG They were just straight lifts fromJim Jones and the Tabernacle Choir. I dis-torted the lyrics somewhat. Look what hap-pened to them. That's optimism for you.

FIST A reference again to the idea ofhaving a double meaning within your work.

DOUG I always have done. I was going towrite a three track EP single that I was to putin one of their reissued LP's. I'd thoughtabout it. Then I decided it was a weird thingto do, to get further involved. Those ideaseventually sprang into the new album, "LittleBlack Angel", "He's Disabled ", "MournersBench".

FIST "Little Black Angel", also seems tohave a positivity about it.

DOUG I don't know. Life just is, or not, at

FIST With the last album there seems to

it alive.

eye.

the end of it.FIST Your live performances seem more

prolific. Why is that?DOUG This year I' ve done the most for

years. I said no for so long, it just made achange to say yes. D.I.J. have never donemassive tours. I just had the feeling it wouldbe OK.

FIST So that's it for the foreseeable future

DOUG There are so many other things todo. The thought crossed my mind aboutgoing to America. Most of Europe has beencovered, apart from Belgium and Holland,which is unfortunate. I don't want it to becomeordinary. 93 is going to be a strange year andI think we all have to watch ourselves. I don' twant to leave myself open to attack. If peopledidn't see us, they had their chance. I waspleased we did them. For me it was aninteresting experience. Most of the time itcame over quite well.

FIST Even in this country?DOUG This country has an endemic dis-

ease of problems. I'd rather not talk about thiscbuntry. I' ve always felt a stranger here. Thatis the way I prefer it.

FIST What about the best response?DOUG Wherever we' ve been, it's always

been surprising.FIST Are you getting a younger genera-

tion of people to see you? DOUG It's mixed. The unfortunate thing

about live concerts is that I don't like meetingmany people. There are people I feel at easewith straight away, and there are others whohave bgen in contact with me via the mailorder service, so if they say their name, wealready know each other in some respect,There are others who think they know youthrough your work and even on this verylimited scale of being known, it can get verycreepy and I detest it. I hate being touched bypeople who think you' re something specialand want an answer from you about a prob-lem. That's another reason I want to get outof that.

FIST The problem of being in the public

DOUG I' ve never really been in the publiceye. I liked the idea that people didn't recog-nise me at Prague airport because I didn' thave a beard. I said to them that it comes andgoes. It was only for one photo session but ithad stamped itself indelibly on their mind.They know who you are on stage. As much asthere are nice people to meet, there alsobunches of creeps, I don't like being acces-sible to people.

FIST Is the idea that people write to youimportant?

DOUG In a way, I prefer it if they buysomething

FIST A monetary relationship?DOUG Yes not a mother and father one.

I don't like it if people want to get close andexplain things in letters. I'm not here to act asa psychiartrist. I don't write to them and askfor help.

FIST Is the music a catharsis for you?DOUG Possibly, I don't know. The lyrics

mean different things in shapes and forms

can be.

when I was writing them. I know when certainwords were written,n and where they fit intosongs. I take a long time getting to the lyrics.

FIST So they are constantly reworked?DOUG No, not reworked.l'd been writing

a stack of new ideas. With the last album I'dbeen writing for three years wherever I'dbeen. I'd done a lot of travelling during thatperiod. Nothing was making sense until thebeginning of last year. One group of wordsstarted acting as a magnet for others. Then itbegan to become a coherent idea. "GoldenWedding of Sorrow" came out of looking outof a hotel window in Paris and rememberingsomething I'd written in Adelaide. I' ve got awhole stack of things now that I' ve writtenthat are just lines. There's no time to writeanything new at the moment, it's just notthere.

FIST You work from a few key ideas?DOUG Sometimes I get a few words

inside my head and I write them down. To methe way I work is like a long handed form ofcut up. If I mhearing things in my head it's tikea radio station. You go through the wavelengths and not hear anything complete.There are some days when the aerial is doingsomething and I'm picking up bits and pieces.It"s like a broken telex machine, where I' pickup parts of the message, then it's good.There again that could be because I wasdrinking too much or something, so the brain'sbroken (LAUGHS),

FIST So it's the subconscious working?DOUG Yes, probably, the soul, some

kind of exorcism. I don't like analysing it tooclosely, because it is tantamount to defile-ment. It's like having a child and cutting it tobits to see how it works. Then I probablywould, as a well known Nazi Satanist OccultChild Molester. In fact I' ve done it severaltimes. (I AUGHS)

FIST Your last gig was meant to be filmedby Central TV wasn't it?

DOUG We were joking about the "NONEvent" at the beginning, how little did weknow. Thank god for the Greek Restaurantand The Torture Garden. How perverse life

FIST What happened?DOUG The gig was arranged for some

time. Boyd was coming over and we weregoing to tie that in with a number of otherthings. I didn't know that he had been ap-proached in America by Central TV to do adocumentary based on the other side of thestory, as regards Satanists. I'm not too inter-ested in Satanism. (This occured due toBoyd's connections with the "Church of Sa-tan"). He hadn't told us this when he arrived.Suddenly Central TV were phoning up WorldSerpent and our rehearsal studio, wanting tocome down. They were very intrusive, I didn' tlike being involved with them at all. HoweverBoyd said this was his chance to get hismessage over to a hundred million people, sowe tagged along with it. Behind our back,Central TV hadbeen approaching The Grand,saying all sorts of strange things, trying tomake it spicy for them to film. As per usualthere are always people phoning up beforewe play, as with The Powerhaus and The

mous.

event.

FIST Is it deliberate?

Venue, trying to make them cancel. TheGrand was getting worried about the NaziSatanist Occult Individuals doing a showabout eating babies and killing Jews on stage.Having spoken to them we allayed thosefears. Unfortunately the deciding factor wasthat their licence renewal was coming upthree days after the Event. Then there was abomb scare, which they didn't believe in. Thisphone crank had become so hysterical! Dueto the seriousness, they didn't tell the policebecause they didn't feel it was in their inter-ests. At the end of the day it was businessdictating, not some crank scaring us. Wedecided that because Central TV had some-thing to do with the muck up of the event, theyshould provide some refreshments for thepeople who hadn't been notified that theEvent was cancelled. Fortunately we wereable to organise another Venue and so Nonplayed a shortened set at an S8 M Club. Asthere was no sound check Death ln Junewere not able to play. I think we carne out ofit in victory. It probably wili become a mythical

FIST Why do you think you are doggedbythis controversy?

DOUG There are a lot of stupid people.Morrisey is being dragged through the pa-pers now. One minute he is the top of the pile,now he's being bothered by the specklyindividuals. I think people are begging for it.Death ln June is a good group and any groupof substance is dogged by controversy. Theycan't really buttonhole us and say we are thisor that, which annoys a lot of people. The factthat we have existed for twelve years free ofmusic business rubbish. I think it angers thesimple people.

DOUG No, you can't dictate how yournature is. It's me as an individual.

FIST So you chose not to be a star?DOUG I am a star, a black star(LAUGHS),

in some ways.FIST The ethos of the group seems anony-

DOUG Most "stars" are such jerk offs.Why should I want to be in the same stableas them. I'm not a commodity. I don't haveany interest in those people. What a waste oftime. There's not much musically now that' sgoing on. Nothing has changed in the pasttwenty years. Except for the lycra cyclingshorts I may as well be watching Top Of thePops from 1972/3. I hated it then, I hate itnow. Nothing has really changed. That bighardcore group Faith no More doing "Easy",what scum fuckers. I much prefer to go shop-

FIST How does your sexuality tie in with

DOUG I think it has to reflect it. I think ourmusic is very masculine sounding. It's not adeliberate ploy. I assume it's conveyed in theway I articulate. I don't write something andthink; "Oh that's a homosexual chord ".(LAUGHS),... Once people know the sce-nario then they can interpret it. It's like know-ing Genet. It made me appreciate his workmore. It makes it more interesting for me.

FIST It's not exactly stereotyped Gay

pingg.

the music?

Culture though.DOUG Gay culture is as diverse as any

other sub culture. Clones wiggling their hipsto high energy is just the public face.

FIST It wasn't obvious to me.DOUG If you' re not looking for it then

you' re not aware. It's probably Nazi songs ofHomosexual Despair and the Devil (Laughs).

FIST There does seem to be this under-current of Gay Artists within the genre youoperate, ranging from Coil to Mare Almond. Isthat reflected in your audience?

them. Usual bunch of Homosexual Nazi Oc-cultists. Wherever you go, from Japan toZagreb, they' re always there. A disease thathas spread, a virus that is growing.

FIST By your nature you'li never be ableto re produce.

DOUG We' re like amoebas, we repro-duce ourselves. The same posters in differ-ent countries, same collection of Sutcliffe/Jugend tapes. WE ARE EVERYWHERE!

FIST What role does mysticism play?DOUG An everyday role when you beckon

it forth. It comes in on those levels, but youknow when it is happening.

from within or without?FIST How do you define it, something

DOUG Both, the most easily definable iswhen it is without, when other people see thesame thing. Mystical things can happen anytime or any place such as sitting on a benchin a park. Towards the end of the German tourI was hearing voices everywhere. I was get-ting distinctly strange and people were pass-ing comment. I actually nearly killed them alltowards the end. It's not a mystical experi-ence as such. A few odd things had beenhappening. I'd been hearing people talking tome and touching me but no one was there. Iwas getting touchy! I fell asleep in the van,twenty miles from Hamburg, However in mydream I was stili awake in the van. All of asudden the lights had gone out and the driverhad dozed off... This happened in seconds,so that real life and the dream had becomeblurred. We were going to crash, so I jumpedup and grabbed hold of the wheel and thedriver in the dream. The trouble was that Iwas doing it in real life as well, with my eyesshut, screaming. The whole van was goingeverywhere. I had hold of the driver and thesteering wheel. Everyone was in sheer ter-

ror. Fortunately they fought me off. To methat was a near death experience. They saidafterwards that they had never seen memove so fast. (LAUGHS)... And they thoughtI wasn't weird.

The last mystical experience I had wasbeing cruised by a Catholic Priest at HeathrowAirport. I was totally amazed by his face andhis lack of inhibitions. He was in his dogcollar, with a family waiting outside. I'd gonethere to meet a friend and he just bowled meover. Out of that "Hollows of Devotion" waswritten. I couldn't get him out of my mind.!bought these Catholic papers to see if I couldcommunicate with him, he made such animpression. Ken Thomas, our engineercouldn't get over it when I told him. That wasa mystical experience, literally, or was it justa sordid one and I made it into mystical? Heended up being on the same plane as myfriend going to Rome, The best things comeout when you are emotionally traumatised. Itcan either be good or bad. If you go throughit enough times you know how to call upon it.I never sit down and think now is the time towrite a song.

DOUG I don't know that much about