CyberForum@ArtCenter 02/09/2000, 1:30 pm PST

******************************************************* Active Worlds chat session: Wed Feb 9, 2000 1:21 PM ********************************************************MikeH: hi godster

godster: Ommm = MikeH?MikeH: yes, Mike Heim = MikeHgodster: are we ready for some action?"Lisbeth": yesnemo: yes"Paul": Yes."EvidentMan": Howdy everyone.sally: howdy, evidentmangodster: hello EvidentMangodster: love your av MikeH, don't think I've seen it beforeMikeH: this avatar is called "Gurdjieff""EvidentMan": I'm having a little trouble moving toward you. Am I having a connection problem??MikeH: Evident,: you might just hold down the Shift key while you move -- that will allowwalk through things"EvidentMan": that does it. Thanks!godster: Tobey just arrived. Simon is setting her up

"comfortably numb": Hello! Hope I'm not too late!"Lisbeth": IT University, Denmark, and you?"EvidentMan": sally, you're a lovely dancersally: thank you sir"comfortably numb": mj, ya here?mjson: Comfy!sally: hi, cn"comfortably numb": MJ!!!!!!"comfortably numb": HI sally!"comfortably numb": hello everyone!nemo: hi cn (its simon)sally: good to see you again"fidel": Good afternoon everybody!"comfortably numb": hey simon! long time! how ya been?MikeH: hey fidelgodster: Hello fidelnomad: yo fidelio"EvidentMan": Howdy, Fidel!"comfortably numb": you too, sally! :)"fidel": Well mike what's the plan?"Desney": Hey guys... New in here... What's the plan for today?"EvidentMan": yeah, we need a plan!"Desney": Plans are great... NO agenda type thingy??? :)MikeH: okay folks, welcome to the second CyberForumMikeH: today I will talk about "The New Memory Palace"MikeH: Can everyone see the numbers on the web page on the right?"Desney": Yes... :)nemo: yepMikeH: please don't click on anything yetacroon: yes"EvidentMan": to self: must not click. must not click...godster: Y"fidel": no"Esco": yesnemo: what discipline, Evident!"Paul": yesMikeH: the numbers are steps in our walk -- let me explain"Desney": Kewl...MikeH: last week, some members of the Forum discussed the relation of movement totalk in virtual worldsMikeH: it was a most stimulating discussion"Desney": Are the logs of this somewhere accessible?"fidel": In the archives?MikeH: log archives from last week are available atwww.mheim.com/cyberforum/archive.html"Desney": Thanx.... Will check it out after this... "EvidentMan": to self: must not click, must not click...

MikeH: heheMikeH: or you just click "To" on the Teleport menuMikeH: and put in the numbers you see at right of the screenMikeH: the easy way is to just click on the link"Desney": Kewl. Works for me... :) Links don't seem to work for me... But anyways I can getaround is a great way... :)nemo: others can always joinMikeH: let's try the first location, the waterfall"Esco": alrite! good work everyone"Desney": Thanx sal...godster: we did it yay!

MikeH: glad you made it!MikeH: this waterfall suggests the flow of thoughtsMikeH: and the changing states of memoryMikeH: the memory palace is an ancient deviceMikeH: the memory palace was a series of rooms MikeH: used by orators MikeH: to memorize their speechesMikeH: each room connected the mind with a set of symbolic objectsMikeH: that reinforced the topic"Paul": Question: Did we actually move in this virtual world or did our perception of the worldchange?godster: how do we "move" paul?"Paul": Good point! It's just a perception of movement isn't it.

"EvidentMan": I'm stuck, too. The Open" dialogue wants to know what I want to open it with. Ihave no idea..."fidel": We have to establish an ontological point of reference"Desney": Human mind deals with movement and sequences well tho... That's what makes it sopowerful"LateComer": 4444"Paul": The reason I ask is that the avatars around me made the "move" along with me."Laurie McRobert": Hello Mike"fidel": Like cues"Esco": i cMikeH: the original meaning of "topic" is Greek topos or "place"MikeH: so each place was a place in memoryMikeH: what i thought after reading last week's chat logMikeH: was that we need to reverse the memory palace modelMikeH: instead of memorizing our speeches through virtual placesMikeH: we could use virtual places to imprint memory impression of topicsMikeH: so today, for instance, we begin with the Waterfall of flowing ideasMikeH: and liquid concepts"Desney": Reverse the model... "Laurie McRobert": I hope I am not interrupting. This is my first attempt at dialogue in livecyberspace."skejs": hi"Esco": ah, i get it"fidel": Like this gay in Luria's book?MikeH: now we will walk outside of the waterfall MikeH: into the narrow path right outsideMikeH: you can follow me orMikeH: you can click on the link number 2 for narrow pathMikeH: oh, don't forget to hold down Shift to get through the water wallMikeH: okay now we can each walk the narrow path to the endMikeH: use 3rd person if you want to see the cute avatars walkingMikeH: at the end i will explain the meaning of the path for my talk today

"Desney": Very kewl... Spatial memory is powerful... If we could somehow control the use of it...."skejs": great, I love it"Desney": let's go... :)nomad: nice changes in scenery"Paul": I made it without the shift key?"fidel": ehj,skejsMikeH: cool, Paul, that's not easy!"fidel": Like a trip in the forest"Desney": So here's the question... Will people that do not walk the path but teleport lose the point?"skejs": I like your walking style, mike"Paul": Don't know what I did."EvidentMan": many years of playing doom and quake have finally paid off.nomad: lol"fidel": games for lifeImmigration Officer: You are being joined by clack."Desney": Seems like a good part of memory palaces was stored in the transitions from room toroomnomad: I am here, watching you guys approach!"EvidentMan": to self: no fragging, no fragging..."Desney": If I don't have the path, but teleport, is something lost in my spatial cognition?nomad: like, is it the journey, or the destination?"fidel": after youImmigration Officer: You are being joined by godster."skejs": it's so cool walking with u m

Immigration Officer: You are being joined by sally."Desney": Yeah, I don't relate spaces when I teleport... But I form a mental map by walking fromplace to place.nemo: indeed, desgodster: talk and walk is difficultImmigration Officer: You are being joined by mjson.

godster: I feel like a babe"Desney": hahahha! IN V-Land it is... :)Hypatia: escalators to eternity"EvidentMan": oh yeah? well my avatar's chewing gum, too! :-)"fidel": like in rl goodsterMikeH: we're nearing the end of the path"fidel": ups in rlgodster: we're all in various vrl ages then eh?"fidel": sound dramatic"Desney": I have to go now, but this is interesting... Mind if I view the logs later and mail you withcomments/further discussion?"fidel": vrl?MikeH: okay, climb on the island here with me and let me explain the Narrow PathMikeH: when I explain "virtual realism"MikeH: i often refer to a narrow path between network idealism and naive realismMikeH: between the "let's upload ourselves to the Web" and "I won't touch a computer"MikeH: virtual realism is the middle path not because it is mediocre and the trend oftoday

MikeH: rather, virtual realism is the difficult middle road of harmonyMikeH: where we each need to balance the virtual with the realMikeH: and we have to go this path day by day each on our own two feet nomad: lolMikeH: just as it's difficult for our avatars to walk straight hereMikeH: so it 's difficult to walk with balance every dayMikeH: my imbalance right now is to slouch toward the computer screenMikeH: -- i'm just now correcting this as i thought about itMikeH: my real body needs attention and health maintenance while myMikeH: virtual body lives here for an hour or two...MikeH: this is our second step in the Reverse Memory Palace"skejs": if u follow Latour, its not a question of balance btw real and the virtual"skejs": because how can they be parallel universes "skejs": don't they ever meet?"skejs": I feel very much that they donomad: parallel lines never meet"fidel": remember breathing -- that's a good pointmjson: 20 ppl simultaneously correcting their posture all over the world"skejs": for instance, in my breath, thanks fidelgodster: ha ha he heMikeH: the virtual and real meet right now if you glance at your chair and the way you sittoward your monitornemo: my back hurts"Desney": Distinct and yet co-existentMikeH: time for a stretch"fidel": interface ?godster: I talk out loud to you all. what does that mean?"fidel": the bodily interfaceMikeH: is not the virtual inside the real universe?MikeH: network idealists believe the real fits inside the virtual MikeH: that's certainly a wishful idealismgodster: like a subset?nemo: hmmm"fidel": is me?"Esco": very truecomfy: I feel as if I've lost my identity here... my av is gone :(MikeH: let's talk now about realists as we visit the "realism" of the garden (number 3spot)comfy: hey! found it!"fidel": I see your thoughts comfycomfy: i'll clam up now"fidel": ergo you aregodster: are we reading minds fidel?"Esco": the virtual is definitely in the real universeMikeH: can you join me at the garden (it's not far from ground zero -- just straight aheadand to the left -- it's above the waterfall we visitedMikeH: so you could hit the back arrow (upper left) and then fly up (Plus Key)

"Esco": virtual"fidel": tekst=mind"EvidentMan": hmm, which way is "straight ahead" in this cockamamie universe?mjson: here we go again"EvidentMan": am I here or am I lost? Time will tell...MikeH: welcome to Jinhee's gardenMikeH: Jinhee was an early student builder whoMikeH: wanted to replicate the real world in her section of our world"fidel": Gives interior dec a new meaningMikeH: all the other students wanted a more abstract fantasy worldMikeH: but not JinheeMikeH: let's take a brief tour of her garden to see how other students protestedMikeH: and tried make her garden more fantasyMikeH: can you see this bird bath?mjson: yupMikeH: well, originally there were several signs here in EnglishMikeH: and the other students removed the signsMikeH: because they seemed too literalMikeH: BTW, those birds in the bath are not actually avatarsgodster: all the ebirds are perched and drinking ewater eh?"fidel": Hej lisbethMikeH: they're just models without users"EvidentMan": what about jinhee's property rights? We need virtual lawyers!godster: uohMikeH: Jinhee's property was seized by a mob of builders

MikeH: who wanted a "visual identity"MikeH: you can see the same issue in CyberTown (Blaxxun browser)MikeH: you need permission to change things for the sake of a uniform "visual identity"godster: that sounds a bit like the suburbs"Paul": suburbs . . . conformity, all the sameMikeH: now let's see what virtual realists MikeH: have done to bring fantasy instead of realism MikeH: we now go to the Purple Cloud (ethereal)MikeH: come join me at point 4acroon: I Like this real stuff!"skejs": its so excitinggodster: oooooooo!

MikeH: spend some time going inside the purple structureMikeH: explore its corners and shapesImmigration Officer: You are being joined by clack."EvidentMan": let's see...insert Tab A into Slot B...comfy: I dig those blinking green lights on the er.. roof thingy over here. verrrrrry neat!godster: Exploring this space as a group is different from seeing it solo"Esco": very abstract"EvidentMan": godster, in what way?comfy: definitely, godstergodster: the exchange w/ others makes it more of a presence to menemo: em--scale seems very differentMikeH: yes, it's an abstract shape without real-world referencenomad: with lots of ppl in it, the space seems more spacious, more capable of sustaining

public life

comfy: shared experience... makes it more tangible, more real...godster: hearing everyone talk in the space and about it makes it more real to megodster: even in RL, I need this reflection by others"Esco": it does resemble the entanglements of lifeMikeH: true EscoMikeH: abstract fantasy can get INSIDE of lifeMikeH: okay, now we move to step 5 where fantasy connects with functionMikeH: join me or hit number 5 where we go to View of the Trumpetclack: come join us Paul"Paul": Sorry, trying to work and keep up at the same time."Esco": instrument holding worldsmjson: oops, some people took a dip into the physical world (crashed)"Esco": different virtual worlds existing inside an instrument is a strange conceptMikeH: you can also arrive here by menu: Teleport, To, ACCD, then hit the yellow ball(Trumpet View)

nemo: worlds as notesnemo: nodes"Esco": yeanomad: the microscope, the telescope, the kaleidoscope...?MikeH: the view looks at the functions of Ground Zero (arrival point) for this world thecolored balls at the Trumpet's mouth take visitors to various nodes of the worldMikeH: so the Trumpet is abstract shape (with connotation of musical notes) plus functionof transportation to a variety of experience nodesMikeH: so here is the blend of realism (function) with fantasy (idealism)MikeH: this is the central or middle path called "virtual realism""Esco": yes...."fidel": Worm-holes"skejs": unfortunately no tonesHypatia: i like, it - reminds me of a pseudosphere also... virtualized hyperspace"Esco": strange how the worlds are at the bell of the trumpet"skejs": the trumpet sucks you into cyberspace?"Esco": like notes arriving at the bell from the mouthpiece"Esco": originating from the lungs which are from the insideHypatia: with a distinct absence of the proverbial "staff"MikeH: neat image, skejsMikeH: BTW, it was skejs's comments during last week's Forum that gave me the idea ofa Reverse Memory Palacenemo: bravo s!MikeH: I hope the actions and locations have helped imprint some ideas in your minds /hearts"skejs": I enjoy it so muchMikeH: we have one more node and that is about the body"fidel": Yes indeed

"Esco": yesMikeH: we will now jump to the Lumen node (number 6 on your web page)MikeH: you can join me or click on the 6th link on the right"EvidentMan": fascinatinggodster: speaking of the body. what do you think about the fact that I can never see my av's face?godster: In 3rd person mode, I only see the back of my selfcomfy: you can never see your own face, either"skejs": mike is scratching his head, godster - good questionnomad: In another world, I saw a turn script, which lets you see yourselfcomfy: true to rlgodster: But at least I have a mirror"Paul": Gotta get back to work folks. See you next time.godster: bye paulMikeH: please walk around here and look at the bodies of other avatarsMikeH: stay within the luminous areaMikeH: then i'll give you my rap on this topic (topos)

nomad: ciao"skejs": danishcomfy: go and face somebody w/your av on, godster... virtual mirror :)"EvidentMan": to self: don't color outside the lines, don't color outside the lines...godster: yeah, I'be looking at clack"skejs": yeah, you?MikeH: some avatars you choose will allow you to "Hasidance" (derived from Hasidicdancing)MikeH: if you hasidance, and if you choose 3rd person viewpoint (End key), you will beable to see your avatar's face

MikeH: (don't try this in RL)comfy: hehehe yes, but hasidance makes me fall apart! :)comfy: lol!mjson: hehehgodster: true. But can i only see myself in a state of joy?MikeH: hehenomad: always one can only see themselves in state of joy!"EvidentMan": or if you're beside yourselfcomfy: shiny, happy people dancing... o/~nomad: lolgodster: good point!"fidel": how do represent a state?godster: I see you acroon!acroon: hehe"EvidentMan": do those of you who are dancing feel any lighter, any happier?"fidel": ups, how to represent a feeling in vr?comfy: yikes, looks as if my av has a bit of a list to the left..."skejs": only tourists don't know the dance of the natives"fidel": funny, anthropologists of VRmjson: lol skejsmjson: they should rename tourists to anthropologistsMikeH: to say a few things on this topos...MikeH: this node was originally built to explore the extreme of perception where the eyeperceives maximum luminosityMikeH: light with minimal objectsMikeH: this extreme situation (difficult, or impossible to achieve with current AWgraphics)MikeH: offers a tiny glimpse into the limit situation of the body and its perceptionMikeH: here you can here we can also see the "material" weight of our avatars set intorelief by the sheer textures of light without objectsMikeH: against such a background we appear weighty and vividly presentMikeH: or perhaps not light enough for this fantasy node of great purityMikeH: we are "meat" even as computer graphic presences

"fidel": Mass, represented by light frequency?"skejs": If you move outside of this illumination, it actually looks like a huge eyegodster: thats what I thought too skejs"fidel": look there's the retinaMikeH: some people believe the computer systems will free themselves from our humanbodiesMikeH: that we will not be needed by computers, neither as people nor as avatarsMikeH: other people, like myself, believe that we must affirm the presence of our humanselvesMikeH: inside these computer systems and that avatars are our way of claiming technicalsystem FOR human function and funHypatia: macro to micro and back again"EvidentMan": hey, Mike, fidel and skejs went outside the area of luminescence even though youtold them not to! Where are the hall monitors when you need them!"Esco": that's a scary notion mike"Esco": we do or AI will take overcomfy: do you mean like AI, MikeH?"fidel": the q is whether we need computers that don't need us?"Esco": yeaMikeH: so, i hope you have all had as much fun today as I have on this tour"Esco": yes we did"Esco": thanks a lot mike"skejs": very muchnomad: very nice tour

"EvidentMan": Yes! "EvidentMan": Mike, are you thinking of "self" as the same as "body" in what you just said??MikeH: yes, i think of "body" as companion of "mind" -- as inseparableMikeH: we have tried to meditate on each node as a place of thoughtgodster: I feel as if has been a bit of a turning point for usnemo: muchas gracias!"Esco": we should have more of these conferencescomfy: Thanks so much Mike!!!!Hypatia: thanks Mike!"fidel": Yes this is the best session I've ever joinedcomfy: This was great!Padraic: thanks"Esco": are they're gonna be more of these conferences?nomad: the next conference is the 26th, right, godster?"EvidentMan": thank you so much, mike! And likewise to the rest of you."fidel": Using the media to reflect upon it, great"Laertes": sorry being late, got into accd as beforegodster: I believe so - please check the web folksMikeH: hit "About Cyberforum" for future Forums in this series"skejs": like virtual is companion of real - inseparable!"Esco": k, bye everyonesally: thanks mikeh and allgodster: Good bye. Thanks MikeH for the partyacroon: Thank you !MikeH: thanks for coming, and if you want to ask questions, i'll be here for a few moreminutesMikeH: a log with pics will appear in the next week -- lots of good shots of you folks!"fidel": see your thought's MH and all of you on another occasion"Laertes": looking forward to itMikeH: i'm going to go into another area now for questions because this light hurts myeyes...nomad: lolMikeH: i'm going to ground zero in this world (just re-enter ACCD to find it)"skejs": Mike, my experience of this is actually not very virtual - in the sense not-real"skejs": how can u explain this as virtual - unrealnomad: BRBcomfy: my class this semester is about Identity in lit... more specifically, what comprises identity,how to create it in our work... I suspect we'll probably be approaching some of these same topicsabout body/mind connection"Laertes": sorry being late tonight c u next timeMikeH: to skejs, Do you know people who think you are unreal for spending so much timeon computerscomfy: I know people who think I am... :)"skejs": well i put it on the edge saying unreal - nobody really says that - but virtual yes, whichis...what?MikeH: well, those people tend to be naive realistsMikeH: they tend to believe that the five senses alone deliver "reality"

MikeH: and anything in media is less real, more "made up"MikeH: virtual at its best is the blend of real-world functionality and fun fantasy(supported by computer systems)MikeH: virtual is "nearly real" or actually better, enhanced reality"fidel": Any new books since Metaphysics of...?MikeH: fidel: click on the green image in the upper part of the web on the right"fidel": thanksMikeH: that books explains "virtual realism" as a conceptMikeH: more recent work ties the concept to a design approach, as we've seen todaymjson: oh, a commercial break :)"skejs": right mjsonMikeH: http://otal.umd.edu/~rccs/books/heim.html contains the latest update on the tie-in(Jan., 2K)MikeH: it's a response to a review of the book (commercial break here...)comfy: Well, time to run.. but thanks so much for the talk! it was great! let me know if you wantsome help putting the pictures & log online..."fidel": augmentative reality that's fascinating in the aspects of how hidden the media becomes andhow we come to rely on it!"Laertes": late now, bye all, c u next time MikeH: bye Laertesacroon: bye laertesMikeH: and i have to go too, time to get to class (first into a car on the freeway!)acroon: Bye and thanks again!"skejs": I cant wait to see u all next wed"fidel": Drvie safeMikeH: thank you all for coming and for your attentioncomfy: see ya'll later!"fidel": asta lavista"skejs": we are really getting socializedMikeH: next time we meet on a SaturdayMikeH: bye, bye