Conversations with Krishnamurti-Dr Ruben

8/14/2019 Conversations with Krishnamurti-Dr Ruben

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Conversations with Krishnamurtiby Dr. Ruben Feldman-Gonzalez

recalling his dialogues with Krishnamurti.

From: http://www.theosophy.com/theos-talk/tt06674.html

Part One

During my encounters with people many asked me towrite of my dialogues with Krishnamurti, even knowing Iwould be retrieving them only from my memory sinceonly a few had been recorded. So it was that I started tothink of writing some of my memories down.

Nevertheless, some other friends felt that it wasunnecessary to write my memories since Krishnamurtihad done such a beautiful work of exposition of life andtruth for mankind with his own books, videos andaudiotapes.

I hope that anyone who reads "My Dialogues withKrishnamurti" feels the need to read Krishnamurti

himself.I have almost stopped reading, and if I do it is only to read"Krishnamurti Journals" or "Commentaries On Living" byKrishnamurti and "Collected Works of Krishnamurti" (17volumes Kendall-Hunt) (1933-1967).

Looking For The North

Political contradiction in Argentina was always high. It

came to one of its highest points, though, by the end of August 1972.

During this time a group of leftist, guerrilla men andwomen were killed while in jail at Trelew-Argentina, andI was horrified to hear that one of them had been a friendof the family.

I started to get phone calls prompting me to take sides inthe armed struggle: "If you are not for the left you are forthe right", a man's voice had told me on the phone beforehe hung-up while I was taking care of a recently bornbaby in Villada, Argentina, Aug. 23rd 1972.


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The following day I went to Buenos Aires to get a visa tothe U.S.A. (1972).

If man looses respect for life we are all at risk from eachother. Man becomes his own executioner.

Only after two years I got a temporary visa to enter theU.S.A. Every Argentinian was suspicious then.

I stopped over in Puerto Rico. There was a man there Iwanted to meet: Enrique Biascoechea.

I did meet him. He was dying. He had been a friend of Krishnamurti since age nine.

He wrote a letter to Krishnamurti telling him that I hadleft behind my parents, two baby sons, possessions,friends, profession, comfort, and status in order to travelto meet with him. That was in June 1974. Enrique died inNov 1974.

After reaching the U.S. I soon found myself working 16hours a day as a resident physician in Pennsylvania. Ineeded a dictionary to dictate my notes. Of the other eight

hours of the day I spent four in the basement to studymedicine in English to revalidate my license. I slept threeor four hours a day and ate only once a day, taking coffeein the morning and again at lunchtime simply to keepmyself awake.

Sometimes I wondered how my body could bear so muchabuse!

I got letters from Argentina: "Misery. My family and myfriends kept disappearing".

I had given up hope to meet Krishnamurti when I got aletter from Mrs. Zimbalist, dated Jan. 5th 1975 in Ojai,California telling me I had a personal interview withKrishnamurti on march 23rd at 4 P.M. at the HuntingtonHotel in San Francisco, California.

Mrs. Zimbalist volunteered her time for Krishnamurti as adevoted secretary. She is the widow of the late SamZimbalist who had produced the reknowned film "BenHur".


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At four P.M. on March 23rd 1975 sharp I knocked atKrishnamurti's door. Mrs. Zimbalist did everything tomake me feel comfortable.

Krishnamurti came after five minutes. I stood up from thearmchair to shake his hand. He looked smaller than Iexpected him to be. He wore an old blue jacket. He sat infront of me with nothing in between the two chairs. Mrs.Zimbalist left silently.

We sat there looking at each other. I will never be able todescribe that moment when Krishnamurti was gazing atme.

I felt at the same time all the love I had felt for myparents, my sons, my girlfriends, my friends (dead oralive)...

There was long silence.

Krishnamurti said: Biascoechea says you are ready towork for the Foundation.

I said: I may not be wise or free enough for that.

Krishnamurti: You will.

Ruben: What would the work imply?

Krishnamurti: Publishing books, videos and tapes.

Ruben: That implies managing money.

Krishnamurti: Millions of dollars.

Ruben: That horrifies me. I'm not ready for that. I thoughtI would have to travel with you, type your lectures fromrecorded tapes.... things like that.

Krishnamurti: (Laughing) You can do more than that Dr...

Ruben: My name is Ruben Ernesto Feldman-Gonzalez.

Krishnamurti: That's confusing, may I call you Dr.

Gonzalez?Ruben: Of course, but my real name is Anger.


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Krishnamurti: (touching my left knee) Ah! I'm glad youdon't wear a mask like so many that come to mepretending to be saints.

Ruben: I'm far from that. I feel a complete repugnance forthe so-called political situation of Argentina, my countryof birth, and even for the way my profession is practiced.I'm a pediatric surgeon. I had started to study psychiatry(July 1974) in Pennsylvania to see why the world hasgone so crazy. Nevertheless I'm not impressed, theapproach to treatment in psychiatry is conventional...standardized. I'll leave psychiatry too. I don't know what Iwill do.

Krishnamurti: Don't leave psychiatry. Change it.

Ruben: I never thought you would give me concreteadvice like that. It sounds absurd though. Changingpsychiatry sounds like changing the color of the cricketsof the world.

Krishnamurti: You have to change psychiatry.

Ruben: I wish I knew what you meant.

Krishnamurti: You have to meet Dr. David Bohm inLondon. Let's go there soon.

Ruben: I wish I could, perhaps if I get a loan.

Krishnamurti: No! Don't ask for a loan. You'll meet himsoon anyway.

Ruben: I need to make changes. I have no peace. Friendshave disappeared in Argentina. Everything seems sochaotic and corrupt....

Krishnamurti: (smiling) You need exercise (Krishnamurtitouched my belly with the tip of his left index finger).

Ruben: I work 16 hours a day and then I have to sit tostudy for four hours a day before I go to sleep. All this torenew my medical license in the USA.

Krishnamurti: That's an excuse. Take care of yourself.You need exercise. You look like a bull.


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Ruben: Sometimes I feel that I need to share myunderstanding with people around the world. What do yousay to that?

Krishnamurti: You speak.

A very long silence followed. I had expected him to tellme to "stay put" and spend the rest of my life in silentmeditation. With very few words he was the perfectmirror for my own contradictions to emerge and beclearly seen.

He insisted: The Foundation in Puerto Rico has no head. Ihope you will take it (he grabbed my left knee).

Ruben: Krishnaji, when I was with Biascoecheaeverything seemed so easy. Now I see I don't have thepeace of mind, the right skills nor the freedom (the sonsand two parents to feed) to dedicate myself sensibly tosuch an important and difficult task. It is certainly nopicnic.

Krishnamurti: I hope you take it.

Another long silence followed.

Krishnamurti discussed several items regarding theFoundation's translations, people like Salvado Sendra,Vimala Thakar, personal and ideological struggles withinthe Foundations, etc.

Ruben: I'm eager to meet Salvador and Vimala... butpeople from the Fourth Path are trying to mix what yousay with what others have said and are quite willing to

control the Foundations.Krishnamurti: That has been going on all the time and notonly with them. The Fourth Path is a path of violencewhich reinforces the ego and the wish to control life andits course. Do not touch it. The first insight is to dropeverything non-essential for the total liberation of mankind.

Ruben: Now that you mention the non-essential.... Why

did you allow the biography of yours written by Lutyensto be published? It's gossipy and superficial, and it maynot be right selling "At the Feet of the Master" ... with


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your name on it.

Krishnamurti: Not my books.

Ruben: And they are making a profit.

Krishnamurti: It's not my business.

Ruben: How would you recommend your books to beread, and in what order?

Krishnamurti: Do not read them like a novel. Read slowlyas if your life was in every word and every sentence. Startwith the last one and then if there is an interest go

backwards through the first one.Ruben: Should we read all your books?

Krishnamurti: If you take a train in San Francisco to go toLos Angeles... would you get off in Santa Barabara?

We both laughed. One had to laugh very often in thecompany of Krishnamurti. Today the order of the bookswould be:

"Ending of Time""The Awakening of Intelligence""Commentaries on Living""Journal""Freedom from the Known", etc."Collected Works" (1933-67)

I asked: Why don't you eat meat?

He answered: Pity.

I expected a longer lecture but that was all he said. Againa long silence. The silence was alive, the silence of twoalert friends seeing together the same thing at the sametime.

He stood up and said. "Excuse me Dr. Gonzalez, I'llprepare some tea for you".

At the kitchen in the big suite he whispered somethingwith Mrs. Zimbalist who was sitting there.


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He came back with a cup of tea. He said: "Tea of roses foryou".

I sipped it, but I didn't like it. I left it on the little tablebeside us.

Ruben: Can we talk about meditation?

Krishnamurti: Is there anything else?

Ruben: Well, the very word meditation is used by gurusof all kinds to make money, sell silly books, techniques,pillows, crystals, mantras, and incense.

Krishnamurti: I have been using the word for 50 years. Ican't change it now. People will have to see I use the wordwith a different meaning. I do not use the word meditationwith its traditional meaning!

Ruben: What about using the expression "UnitaryPerception" instead.

Krishnamurti: You use it.

(Krishnamurti said he would not use the word meditationanymore during his last talk in England in 1985, ten yearslater.)

Krishnamurti: Why not live very simply? Call itmeditation or Unitary Perception. Self protection and self aggrandizement through money making and success haveto end in order to live simply. To live simply is to liveintelligently, without an observer in observation. If youbelieve you have to go back to Argentina to be loyal to

some concept of yours you are not simple. If you areangry you are not simple. If you are full of sorrow youcan't love anyone. Can you be spontaneous and simply actwith not too much planning?

Ruben: You are not saying I have to remain alone and livein poverty and silence.

Krishnamurti: Would that be simple? Would you beescaping from life? The consummation of truth is not to

be successful or wealthy... but do you want completetruth? Look for success or money and you'll findfrustration. Look for truth and you'll receive total peace of


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mind and joy. Will you be one of the few? Or will youcontinue being one of the many worshippers of moneyand success?

After a long silence, he said: "Dr. Gonzalez, your tea must

be cold already, finish it!"

I didn't have the courage to say no and I did finish itsilently.

He said: "Let's meet tomorrow at eight A.M.

Krishnamurti went with me to the door, opened it for meand smiled lovingly saying: "Good bye".

I said: What noun should be applied to what you teach--"message", "gospel",..., or what?

Krishnamurti said: Call it "the teachings". Let's meettomorrow at eight A.M., right here.

I spend the rest of the afternoon by myself in my room,which I had rented at the same hotel where Krishnamurtiwas staying. I felt like a Condor for the rest of the day. Imet Krishnamurti by chance in the lobby that evening. Iwalked with him for awhile.

I saw a couple of very beautiful girls.

I said: "God, how beautiful they are".

He said: "Only well fed".

I said: "Krishnaji, I felt like a Condor the whole afternoon,full of peace and joy and love. I think it's because I spentsome time with you."

Krishnamurti said: "For how long do you want to beinfected?"

Part TwoUntie the Ocean

(Intimate dialogues with Krishnamurti)

Memorized after the encounter--not recorded on audiotape


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I met Krishnamurti on March the 23rd 1975 in SanFrancisco, California. I have already written about that.My last name is Feldman Gonzalez but Krishnamurtiaddressed me only as Dr. Gonzalez. March 24, 1975(Huntington Hotel - San Francisco, California)

Krishnamurti: Sorry, I made you wait. I was doing someHatha Yoga.

Ruben: No problem. Thank you for receiving me again. Iwould like to discuss the fact that you are the instructor of the world (or the Second Coming).

Krishnamurti: You worry about the irrelevant.

Ruben: It is relevant for me, because if you are theInstructor of the World, then I want to be an apostle.

Krishnamurti: There are no more apostles, Dr. Gonzalez.It is of critical urgency that human beings changeradically. They have to detach themselves from thecontent of mankind's consciousness, they have to livewithout touching the stream of growing vulgarity andviolence. Egocentric activity has to end, the desire for

profit, power and prestige. One needs to learn to livepsychologically alone, that is to be content withoutdepending on anybody or anything.

Ruben: That they detach themselves from the content of mankind's consciousness?... then, how does one live?

Krishnamurti: You don't become comatose, you don'tenter into a drug or alcohol induced trance, you don't livein a state of hypnosis, nor asleep even while awake. Youlive in complete attention. Are you aware that observationis attention?

Ruben: Fundamental action.

Krishnamurti: Observation is action. To observe totallydoesn't mean to be negligent nor socially indifferent. If you observe totally, each one of your actions changes innature. You free yourself from the choking grip of traditional memory and you also start to think sanely andfreely. So there is total observation and new thought andaction. (We spent a long time in silence)


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Ruben: Are you greater than Jesus?

Krishnamurti: Do you want me to say "yes"?

Ruben: Tell me what do you think?

Krishnamurti: Mankind is not the same. In the last 2000years there have been three wars every year in the worldand there has been a consequent degradation of humanbeings, the son of humanity can not be the same.

Ruben: You are talking of the Son of Man (with capitalletters) aren't you? You are talking of the Greek "uios touantropon" (the son of man). Aren't you?

Krishnamurti: The son of humanity is today the son of adegraded mankind. Then... what do you do?

Ruben: I listen to Krishnamurti.

Krishnamurti: For how long?

Ruben: Until I understand and radical change occurs.

Krishnamurti: Be a light to yourself. Stop procrastination.Throw away the content of consciousness. There has to bepure consciousness, pure awareness, pure listening.

Ruben: When I asked you whether I could speak publiclyyou said, "you speak".

Krishnamurti: You speak. "That" is not only for you.

Ruben: Can you tell me more about talking to people

about all this?Krishnamurti: You talk and expect no-thing.

(LONG PAUSE) (In vital silence) Krishnamurti had said"no-thing", he had not said "nothing".

Krishnamurti: It's time for lunch Dr. Gonzalez.

March 25, 1975 (Hotel Huntington, San Francisco,

California)Krishnamurti: Good morning Dr. Gonzalez.


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Ruben: Good morning.

Krishnamurti: I guess you have some questions, right?

Ruben: You told me two days ago that you'll never die in

an aircraft, what is it that makes you feel protected?

Krishnamurti: That.

Ruben: O.K. Please, tell me about That (Or the Other).

Krishnamurti: You can see That in action, but you can'ttalk about it.

(LONG PAUSE) (In complete silence)

Ruben: You already know that some of my friendsdisappeared in Argentina. Sometimes I feel deep sorrowfor Argentina and for the rest of the world. How come somuch horror?

Krishnamurti: You can be free of all conditioning andthen you'll be free of sorrow. When you are not anArgentinian anymore you'll be able to do more formankind and even for Argentina. I was born in India. Ihad an English passport. When India declared itsindependence from England I asked for an Indianpassport. Since then I have great problems to get visaswhen I travel around, but I'm not English nor Hindu. I'm ahuman being.

Ruben: You are a very special human being. You are easyto love.

Krishnamurti: I admit I'm different, but the transformationthat has occurred in me can occur in any other humanbeing. And nobody needs Krishnmurti or Dr. Ruben forthat radical transformation, which is so necessary, tooccur.

Ruben: Maybe not, but a serious dialogue helps.

Krishnamurti: With no guru. Dialogue without gurus.

Ruben: Could we say that you are being my guru withoutus wanting it and that I'm being your guru without it beingmy purpose?


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Krishnamurti: Then there is a serious dialogue. You and Iare seeing together the same thing at the same time. Themost repugnant thing is to prostrate yourself to anotherhuman being and adore him or her.

(LONG PAUSE) (In vibrant silence)

Ruben: Someone told me you sometimes even faint out of sheer physical pain... What is that?

Krishnamurti: I call it "the process" but I don't understandit nor want to. I leave all the explanations about "theprocess", healing, and clairvoyance to doctors likeyourself (laughing).

Ruben: I'd like you to tell me how to heal. I mean healingin its pristine and complete sense.

Krishnamurti: Again Dr. speaking (Long pause) Iprepared tea for you the other day. You found it bitter andleft it. I had to ask you to finish it. You still havepredilections, Dr. Gonzalez.

Ruben: So, to heal (with capital letters) you need to have

no predilections.

Krishnamurti: No, no. It's necessary not to havepredilections. Period. If you're content for somethingyou're not content. (LONG PAUSE)

Ruben: Would you summarize the teaching in only onesentence?

Krishnamurti: Attempt without effort to live with death infutureless silence.

Ruben: It sounds absurd.

Krishnamurti: Some time ago, in 1972, I spent a fullmorning with That without leaving my bed. I wascompletely quiet, before doing my Hatha yoga (onlyphysical yoga, just to keep a flexible body)... that was likea flame in the center of immensity. And the center of immensity was my brain. Do you understand?

Ruben: Yes. (LONG PAUSE)


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Krishnamurti: As you get rid of the contents of humanconsciousness, will you get rid of all word?

Ruben: Without saying "Krishnamurti is talking to me".

Krishnamurti: Or he who listens is a "respectable Dr."You simply listen totally in pure silence.

Ruben: Nevertheless, even with no words, I'll be able totalk meaningfully from deep silence.

Krishnamurti: For the first time, quite sir. The word Godis not God.

Ruben: Will it help to stop sex with my wife? (*)

Krishnamurti: Dr. Gonzalez, if you love, you love yourwife, then you do what you will and there is beauty inwhat you do. Don't worry about sex, do it or don't. Now,let's be silent for a while because Mr. and Mrs. Lillifeltwill be here soon. We will have to talk, because you knowwell Dr. Gonzalez, that I will not live forever. Perhaps tenyears more and the chap will be gone.

COMMENTS (*) The relationship with my wife endedthree years later when she left our house, which Iimmediately got rid of. Ever since then I live in the desertwithout securing my future. The meeting followed thedialogue but I have already written about it. Krishnmurtidied almost exactly ten years later.

Part Three

Brockwood Park June 1978 In April 1976 I metKrishnamurti and Mrs. Zimbalist at an internationalmeeting he attended with psychiatrists at the CarnegieInstitute of Endowment in New York. It had beenorganized by Dr. David Shainberg from New York. Themeetings were tape recorded, so I will not discuss them.

When the last meeting ended I approached Krishnamurtias usual to shake his hand and make a few comments.

This time Krishnamurti looked tired and only said a fewwords: "Did anybody listen?" Krishnamurti used to makeintentional pauses between words. "Please see Dr. Bohm


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in England and then see me in Brockwood, as soon as youcan". I just said goodbye.

Krishnamurti was sweating and there was no joy on hisface. It wasn't until June 18th 1978 that I landed at

Heathrow Airport in London (from Miami). I took a busto Woking and from there a train to Petersfield. Mrs.Zimbalist was waiting for me at the station in Petersfield.

I was dressed as informally as I could, and I asked herwhy we were driving a Mercedes. She said it was a goodcar. I had the belief then that the teacher of the worldshould dress informally and even poorly and perhaps liveuncomfortably. Looking backwards I try to understand mylack of sensitivity and I can only partially justify it, tellingmyself I was so eager to see the truth in Krishnamurti thatI was doing at the same time everything possible to findout what was he hiding: either some esoteric teaching forthe chosen few or some ugly business for somecorporation. But there was nothing of one nor of the other.Krishnamurti was talking about the only thing thatmatters, and he was order, beauty, love and truth. Only itwas too hard to believe!

I shared meals with Krishnamurti for ten days in a row. Isat with him, Dr. Bohm and his wife, Mrs. Zimbalist, Mrs.Simmons and Mr. Narayan who was at that time Principalof the Rishi Valley School in India. On June 22nd and23rd three cameras were set up to film the dialoguesbetween Krishnamurti, Bohm, Narayan and Dr. Rahula, aBuddhist from Sri Lanka. Krishnamurti invited me toparticipate, and I, as usual, refused.

During lunch, the following day I asked Krishnamurti

what did he think of the Buddhist specialist. Krishnamurtisaid, "You know there are many library mouses who canonly repeat what they read, they are unable to live whatthey read. During the whole conversation there was notone moment of insight. He did nothing but compare thenew (what Krishnamurti says) with the old (Buddhism).He compares everything with Buddha, he doesn't want tobe a Buddha."

During one of those meals Narayan asked Krishnamurti totalk about reincarnation. Krishnamurti only said this:"What is it that continues?" After lunch I approachedKrishnamurti who was walking alone with his dog


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Whisper under the trees.

I told Krishnamurti I had been watching my sexual desirevery closely the night before. I had been given a roomwhere I slept by myself. I asked, "Is there anything one

can do not to repress the desire and not to free it inconduct?"

Krishnamurti said, "Be a light to yourself." Talking towhisper (the dog) he said: "Let's go Che-che".

By that time one of the male students (all between 14 and22 years old) had gone to the room of one of the girls.There was an ongoing administrative process to expelthem both from the school. Krishnamurti decided hewould discuss sex with the students but he didn't want thevisiting parents who were staying in Brockwood thatsummer to participate.

I started to leave but Krishnamurti called me: "You haveto be present", he said. The students were angry duringthat meeting. One of them said to Krishnamurti, "Youspeak of freedom so much, why do you restrict sexualfreedom in the school?"

Krishnamurti answered: "This school is like a home foryou. Why wouldn't you take care of the school as youwould take care of your home? You know we are underthe laws of England and that we have to respect the laws;otherwise, they are going to close the school."

I met Krishnamurti soon after a series of longconversations with David Bohm regarding his concept of Holokinesis or holomovement.

Krishnamurti: Did you talk to Bohm?

Ruben: Yes. The place was small but the conversationwas big. Dr. Bohm was patient enough to listen to all Ihad to say. He said my approach to perception could bevery helpful for those who have the mind to listen. I'mtrying to polish the language as much as I can.

Krishnamurti: That's good, but words have to be simple.

Sometimes I have felt like creating a new language. Butone has to speak to those who listen, and one has to usethe words we have.


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Ruben: Dr. Bohm agreed with me that whoever listens inunitary perception (holokinetic listening if you want) willhave a changed molecular structure of the brain, of eachneuron.

Krishnamurti: Quite, quite.

Ruben: That brain will make contact in a conscious waywith what you call "the ground".

Krishnamurti: Perhaps, yes.

There was an art show later. I discussed "Discipline" inBrockwood Park with Mathew Lazarus. When I metKrishnamurti, I told him:

Ruben: I was talking about "discipline" with one of thestudents. He said that western students define discipline inBrockwood as "strict". Eastern students consider it"loose".

Krishnamurti: Discipline is the skill to learn. You eitherhave it or you don't.

Ruben: Krishnaji, as I told you three years ago I don't seemuch meaning in working as a physician in a society thatis getting more and more corrupt by the minute. You toldme in 1975 that I shouldn't quit psychiatry (as I quitpediatric surgery) and that I should change psychiatry.What I see is that it is difficult for people to understandthe basics of the new psychology and the new physics andeven if they do understand nothing seems to happen...society continues to be based upon war...

Krishnamurti: Why do you separate God and work? Whycan't you be joyful, peaceful, honest and creative in yourwork?

Part Four

March 30, 1980 Ojai - California There may be one day of error in this date

Ruben: Last year we couldn't talk too much. Mary(Zimbalist) takes good care of you. She didn't let me see


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you. Simple as that (laughing).

Krishnamurti: I asked her to live longer than I will, so shehelps me to take care of "the horse". They claim that Itake care of my body as a cavalry officer takes care of hishorse. Maria is a good officer.

Ruben: I guess that without her it would be difficult to beeven one minute by yourself, with so many peoplewanting to talk to you. People love you.

Krishnamurti: No, very few want to discuss anythingserious. They fall in love with me and want to be close,that's all. It's not that they love.

Ruben: I'm glad to know Dr. David Bohm will talk withyou and that the talks will be recorded. Please tell him I'dlike to see him again.

Krishnamurti: Yes, we will record our talks with Dr.Bohm. I didn't know what we would do in the two days inCalifornia this time, but seems it will happen.

Ruben: I hope you talk about the problem of time. It was

when I had my first contact with That, at the FrankfurtAirport in 1978, that I understood what is irrelevant time.It was the last thing I understood, the difference betweenrelevant and irrelevant time. I think if somebodyunderstands that difference right away That has to bargein.

Krishnamurti: Quite, Dr. Gonzalez.

Ruben: It's a pity that that "contact" is not a voluntarything, because I would not like to live in any other wayanymore. It's like healing or group-mind. It happenswithout one knowing how or why: It's perhaps semi-deliberate...

Krishnamurti: Don't get trapped in it when it happens.

Ruben: No, but it's fascinating.

Krishnamurti: It would be good to have you in ourdialogue with Dr. Bohm, somebody who knows about thebrain and intellectual psychology.


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Ruben: Excuse me, but I'm not ready to participate in thatdialogue. I'm going through a family crisis, my sons are inArgentina, and it's better not to talk about that. You mightremember that last year, after having a walk with them,you told me: "Don't ask them what happened". That was

in April 1979. Their mother left our house abruptly inAugust 79. Is all this irrelevant time?

Krishnamurti: Yes, but you said you have tried the Oceanwater. Don't avoid exposure Dr. Gonzalez. You alreadyhave something to say. I hope you'll participate andcontribute.

Ruben: I'm very sorry I can't do it right now. It's not that Idon't want it or that I'm afraid. I simply can't. I think I'mgoing through a small night of the soul, as they used tosay.

Krishnamurti: I hope you can. Speak and expect no-thing.Don't expect to preserve your respectable merits, untie theocean. The Ocean will flood Dr. Gonzalez. There will benothing left of him. (PAUSE)

Ruben: I'm thinking of working only four hours a day andliving in the desert or by the sea, far from big cities. Imade contacts in San Luis Obispo, Santa Barbara (withDr. Ben whom you know so well), Ventura, Hawaii, etc. Iwant to live simply and with austerity. In November 1979I refused an offer by Dr. Karl Pribram at StanfordUniversity in California, to work with him in brainresearch.

Krishnamurti: You love and you do what you will. Butausterity may not be simple.

Ruben: I got rid of everything I had.

Krishnamurti: Be careful that austerity be simple.

Ruben: What do you mean?

Krishnamurti: You may live in a mansion and spend thenight in a grand hotel, as long as your future is not in yourmemory. He who dies being rich has lived in vain.

Ruben: I agree. The doubts I have refer to the security of my two sons. I only don't want to have more children. I'm


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a pediatric surgeon and a pediatric neurologist--psychiatrist, but I don't know what to tell my children.The world is not fit for children.

Krishnamurti: Be responsible with the commitments you

have taken upon yourself, but don't worry.

Ruben: I think my first commitment is to share thetreasure of That when one truly lives in it. I'm spendingeverything I can spare traveling around the world andtalking from That. That has come several times.

Krishnamurti: Yes, you look different. Since you comefrom Latin America, why not concentrate on LatinAmerica? Tickets and hotels are more and more expensive

every day and you know how difficult it is to get a visasometimes. Nobody will pay your expenses from LatinAmerican. Those who could pay will not listen and thosewho listen will not pay. Besides that, you need to takecare of your health, you need exercise, Dr. Gonzalez. It's aproblem to be in a hospital, all plans altered. That's whathappened to me in 1977 when they operated upon myprostate. It was a chance to die and never come back, butthere is a lot to do yet. You think it's generous to forgetone's health, right?

Ruben: (laughing) I think it's the problem of almost everyphysician, the idea that you have to take care of people'shealth and forget oneself. I was lucky to be born in avegetarian home, that I never drank (alcohol) or useddrugs or tobacco.

Krishnamurti: Beware of your generosity, Dr. Gonzalez,the end of the body shouldn't be precipitated by suicide

nor the generosity of forgetting one's own body. What doyou do when you talk with people in Latin America?Have you ever tried to ask a question in a group fornobody to answer? See what happens.

Ruben: I speak in Universities with professors andstudents. When riots and strikes start (which happensquite often due to the situation of oppression and plunderof which Latin America is victim) then I rent a hotellecture-room, place an ad in a local paper (all quite

expensive) and I invite the whole town, as I have donerepeatedly in Caracas, Santiago, Buenos Aires, Rosario,several towns in Mexico and Lima. In Costa Rica there


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were no problems at the University (San Jose). Perhapsthat's because Costa Rica has no Army. I speak of timeand its relationship to consciousness, to perception. Ispeak of "Unitary Perception". Local gurus don't like meto talk because that's the end of their spiritual business. I

also understand that when you told me "you talk" it'simplicit I'm the only one responsible for what I say. I donot represent you nor interpret your teaching.

Krishnamurti: Quite. Don't forget that in silence flowersan intuitive understanding. Do you talk of living orderlyand peacefully and honestly? That's not so difficult andthat's the beginning. It's important to emphasize a radicalchange in daily life. Partial reforms (political, economic,ideologic) are not enough.

Ruben: But they are urgently needed in Latin America,otherwise a lot of blood will be spilled.

Krishnamurti: yes, but without a radical psychologicaltransformation a partial reform will only procrastinate theblood spill. (PAUSE)

Ruben: If wars don't stop today, there will be wartomorrow. (PAUSE)

Krishnamurti: Have you been flattered or invalidated?

Ruben: More flattered than invalidated. Both may be thesame.

Krishnamurti: They are both rubbish, don't you see? Theyhave done it with me, all my life. To adore or to mock iseasier than listening. You know.

Ruben: I see it clearly. But change seems to be difficult.

Krishnamurti: Do you know that you can help thosestudents to change? Ruben: I hope so... but... thatcontradicts...

Krishnamurti: Give them all your compassion and all yourintelligence and even the last minute of your time andenergy, but learn to rest in silence. You work too much.

Listen well to each one of them. In intelligence andcompassion you are a little sun. You'll give light andwarmth... and some will praise you, or will mock you


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Ruben: Nothing seems to be enough to understandsomething so simple.

Krishnamurti: Your own total psychologicaltransformation is enough. It's enough to get rid of mankind's consciousness. It's necessary to do so and thatis the pure silence and the pure peace of the brain. Butthat can't be left for tomorrow, if one is serious.

Ruben: Silence without name.

Krishnamurti: It's like a house which doesn't have a placefor silence... it will be a house with a lot of activity, plentyof noise, but there That will not enter. There has to be a

room in each house where the only thing you can do thereis to be silent and nothing else. That room will be theflame of the house.

Ruben: Then each home would be like a temple...

Krishnamurti: Each home would be a home withoutsorrow, that is a good home. (LONG PAUSE)

Krishnamurti: Well Dr. Gonzalez, it's time to go now. I'm

sorry.

Ruben: Krishnaji, before we go... I hope you give me thenames of those you think have understood you best, evenwhen not absolutely well. I'd like to talk with all of them.

Krishnamurti: They are few, so find them and meet them.Untie the ocean together.

Ruben: Thank you for all, my friend.

Part Five

Five Years in Ojai I saw Krishnamurti many times in thelast five years of his life. I can't remember the dates wellexcept that my meetings with him happened during thetwo or three weeks the public talks in Ojai were beingheld. It was clear for me that I was not going to depend onKrishnamurti for anything, but I still was intent indiscovering "the complete silence of the mind".


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Whenever we met in Ojai it was with David Bohm and asmall group of friends, or occasionally by chance close toArya Vihar (his residence) or at the Oak Grove School.One day I told him the eternal That, the immense joyfulenergy... had "touched" me. I also told him that very soon

it left me. The meaning of That touching me wasimmense, it made me very strong during the few bigadversities of my life. I asked him, "Why that doesn'tcome more often?" Krishnamurti said, "What do you dowith your energy?"

I think it was in 1981 that a birthday party was organizedfor him (in May) by the people working at the fourFoundations. Krishnamurti arrived and stood in silence forthree or four minutes.

Suddenly a gentleman with a Bostonian or perhapsEnglish accent approached Krishnamurti and said: "Iunderstand you are a Brahmin from India".

Krishnamurti said, "I only have a passport from India". Hesoon left the party.

When the last talk of 1985 ended in Ojai in May I decidedI wouldn't attend any more Krishnamurti talks.Krishnamurti died in February 1986 anyway. It struck me,after his death, while I was listening to the last of his talksin England, held in 1985, that he said: "I will not use theword meditation anymore". I had asked him to do thatseveral times.

One day we were at an orange grove in Arya Vihar,simply enjoying the scent of spring in silence. I said, "Iworry the schools are going to become elitist and that only

the wealthy will be able to send their children to them."

Krishnamurti said: "We have to work with what we haveand we have to talk with the words we have. I was born ina very poor home and some of my brothers died fromtuberculosis or malnutrition. But look at me! I'm doingvery well, huh?"

I said, "you were lucky you had teachers like Leadbeaterwho was even clairvoyant."

Krishnamurti said, "Yes, I was very lucky. Leadbeaterwas temporarily clairvoyant, and I was lucky that


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everything he said entered through my right ear and leftthrough the left."

We were sitting with David Bohm and Krishnamurti. Itold Krishnamurti: "From the conversations the three of us

have had, including the one with Dr. Sheldrake, one mayinfer that when one human mind is consummate inintelligence and love, that mind will inexorably influence(non-verbally) in an energetic (holokinetic) way, allhuman minds at the same time. Now if Krishnamurti istotally transformed or consummate, how come one doesn'tsee it more in people around us or even in the wholeworld? How come the sorrow, the brutality, the vulgarity,the insensitivity of people is not reduced? Why don't wesee the transformation more?

At that point Krishnamurti told Dr. Bohm, "ProfessorBohm, you have been a co-worker of Albert Einstein buteven so one can still talk to you without a mask.(Krishnamurti smiled)... how would you answer to thatquestion? Why don't we see the change?"

Dr. Bohm meditated for a few seconds and said: "As aphysicist I only know that 99% of all phenomenaoccurring in matter and energy are invisible."

May 1983 Krishnamurti had public talks in Ojai ratherlate in the Spring of 83. I was with my two sons:Sebastian age nine and Demian age eight. We couldn't geta motel in Ojai. They were all full. We spent the nights atthe Holiday Inn in Ventura right beside the Pacific Ocean.My sons were happy. We had the sea, and Ojai was onlythirty minutes away by car. It is claimed that "Ojai" means"The Nest of God" in the local American-Indian tongue.

On the morning of Saturday, May 14th, 1983 we arrivedat the Oak Grove School in Ojai (Founded byKrishnamurti in 1974) at about 9:30 A.M. We parked thecar and went for a slow walk under a sunny light-blue skyamong the oak trees. There was a delightful breezebetween the blue mountains and the ocean.

There were already more than 1000 people for the lecturethat would start two hours later. I met many friends from

different parts of the world. We were elated by our mutualcompany and by the expectation of listening toKrishnamurti in person again.


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The blend of nature, friendship and the sacred is beautyitself. And that day we were deep into the glorious light of beauty and the rare presence of love. Krishnamurti talkedfor an hour or so about the deplorable spiritual state of mankind. Three thousand people listened in silence. It was

only Krishnamurti's voice and the breeze among the Oak trees. Hundreds of birds were chirping.

He said we have to be a light to ourselves because "thereis no one to go to". Social and individual corruptiongrows. He said it's perfectly possible to relate without ashadow of conflict.

At the end he shook hands with me and my two sons. "It'sgood to see you for a moment", he said. Demian said,"Krishnamurti has cold hands, Dad". I said, "Krishnamurtiis eighty-eight years old, and he was talking for more thanan hour under the trees in the breeze".

It was during that weekend that we met at Arya Vihara inOjai. There was a circle of chairs with at least ten peoplesitting with Krishnamurti. It was three or four P.M., and itwas easy to lose track of time in that kind of atmosphereafter a cup of tea.

After Krishnamurti joined us we remained in silence. Onehad to absorb his presence before any action was possible.At one point he asked, "Am I a freak?"

I said, "You may not be a freak but possibly the geneticpool you come from makes you definitely more able to befree from the influence of human memory (bothindividual and philogenetic). That has made you moreable to be in total contact with reality, while we are at best

only partially in contact with it."

Krishnamurti said something close to the following, "Wemay have genetic differences but we are all able to 'touch'the ground or the totality of the mind, and that ground isthe most important thing for human life".

I said, "The ground being the cosmic mind or theholokinetic source of life...."

Krishnamurti said, "The ground being complete silence of the mind (he emphasized the word 'complete'), then wecan talk". He finished.


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I said, "Is there something external that comes to us (or toKrishnamurti) in certain specific circumstances?

Krishnamurti said, "It may come now when two or moremeet to discuss seriously, which means with no wish for

money or success and letting all the masks that protect usdrop off. Water will not know what water is. We can onlydiscuss what water is not. You may explain water well butyou have to swim in the sea as well".

I said, "We are in California. If you had to only use thewords from the Bible how would you tell me what you

just said to me?"

Krishnamurti said: "It's revelation. Something that

happens every time I speak. But now, since that happens,I prefer to use my own words which are less loaded withdistortions".

I said, "Tell us more about that."

Krishnamurti said, "It's too big for words". A long silencefollowed.

I finally asked, "what will we do, the ones that have tasteda few drops of that water?"

Krishnamurti said, "Those few will have to shout from thehousetops before it's too late for mankind".

I told him that some people were angry at him for the wayhe had said some things. Many seemed unable to forgiveKrishnamurti for what he had said in Saanen in 1980:"God is disorder and if man is God's creation, God has tobe horrible, a monstrous entity. God must be disordersince we live in disorder. If he made us like He is and weare killing each other, then He must be monstrous".

Krishnamurti said: "What God are we talking about? Is itthe God that man made? Those that get angry want tosubstitute the experience of God, the man-made God. It'snot so easy. That word is disorder, not the experience.Where the word is, experience is not. Where experienceis, there may or may not be the word".


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Conversations with Krishnamurti-Dr Ruben

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Transcript of Conversations with Krishnamurti-Dr Ruben