7/25/2019 CMV_ _Western Civilization_ Doesn't Exist, At Least Not in the Sense of Implying Any Shared Commonality Betwee

1/5

3/1/2016 CMV: "Western civil ization" doesn't exist, at least not in the sense of implying any shared commonality between the US, Europe, Canada, and Australi a/N

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CMV: "Western civilization" doesn't exist, at least not in the sense ofimplying any shared commonality between the US, Europe, Canada, and

Australia/New Zealandhace 8 mesesselfhatingyank

I often hear the countries listed in the title referred to as "the Western world", although I

believe that the differences between the US public and those of other Western democracies

are too great to lump them into one civilization and that arguably the greatest single divide is

between the US and the rest of the world.

Western Civilization doesn't exist

The historical idea of the Western world or Western civilization implies some shared values

otherwise it is just a shorthand for "white people we like." In many ways, however, the

intellectual divide is not between the US and its allies vs., say, the Muslims but the US vs.

the rest of the world, developed and developing, combined.

http://www.thestand.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/us-no-leave.jpg

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/assets_c/2009/08/globalwarmingsupport-

thumb-454x280.jpg

http://stpeteforpeace.org/American.Exceptionalism.text.header.with.fast.fact01.png

http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/unvote.asp

http://www.pewglobal.org/files/2014/10/PG_14.09.04_USIndividualism_640-px.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informal_sector#Estimated_size_of_countries.27_informal_econ

omy

There are issues in which the US is well in line with other developed and developing

countries (the gay marriage debate is progressing comparably in the US to much of Centraland Eastern Europe and Latin America), but in terms of beingeconomicallyright-wing, pro-

gun, pro-prison, and anti-science the US is essentially a civilization unto its own.

The divide between American and non-American is among the most geopolitically

important civilization clashes in the world today

This isn't just an exercise in anti-Americanism. The gap between the US and the Rest is

aggravating a lot of conflicts including:

-Ukraine (pro-US Kiev government vs. anti-US Kremlin)

-East Asia (brutal but anti-American North Korea vs. pro-American Seoul and Tokyo)

-internal politics in China (struggle between Americanizing big-business and"New Left"

factions being played out as a War on Corruption)

-the ongoing Euro-crisis (pro-capitalist, "Americanizing" elite vs. non-American electorate)

-the spying crisis in Germany (pro-American Merkelreich vs. not so pro-American German

electorate)

-Daesh (anti-American Iran bloc vs. anti-American ISIS vs. alleged pro-American

"Crusaders" and "usurers")

In short, the US is sodifferent from the rest of the world that it does not belong in the same

"Western" bucket as Canada or Finland and should be considered an animal of its own.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informal_sector#Estimated_size_of_countries.27_informal_economyhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_countryhttp://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/assets_c/2009/08/globalwarmingsupport-thumb-454x280.jpghttp://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/assets_c/2009/08/globalwarmingsupport-thumb-454x280.jpghttp://www.thestand.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/us-no-leave.jpghttps://www.reddit.com/user/selfhatingyankhttps://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/34midx/cmv_western_civilization_doesnt_exist_at_least/https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/34midx/cmv_western_civilization_doesnt_exist_at_least/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informal_sector#Estimated_size_of_countries.27_informal_economyhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_countryhttp://www.pewglobal.org/files/2014/10/PG_14.09.04_USIndividualism_640-px.pnghttp://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/unvote.asphttp://stpeteforpeace.org/American.Exceptionalism.text.header.with.fast.fact01.pnghttp://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/assets_c/2009/08/globalwarmingsupport-thumb-454x280.jpghttp://www.thestand.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/us-no-leave.jpghttps://www.reddit.com/user/selfhatingyankhttps://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/34midx/cmv_western_civilization_doesnt_exist_at_least/

7/25/2019 CMV_ _Western Civilization_ Doesn't Exist, At Least Not in the Sense of Implying Any Shared Commonality Betwee

2/5

3/1/2016 CMV: "Western civil ization" doesn't exist, at least not in the sense of implying any shared commonality between the US, Europe, Canada, and Australi a/N

https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/34midx/cmv_western_civilization_doesnt_exist_at_least/

[]keepfrgettngmypsswrd 7 puntoshace 8 meses

Standing in one of the fault-lines between Western and Eastern cultures, Finland specifically, I have

to disagree.

Nordic countries in general are politically most definitely (still) an amalgam of both Western

capitalism and Social Democratic Welfare State which has its ideological and historical basis on

Communism.

In FInland the division between The West and The East could have not been clearer when the Iron

Curtain was still being held up. And now that the Russian Nationalism is rearing its head once again

with the backing of the Russian Orthodox Church, the division between the West and the East is

once again more apparent than it might have been in minds of most of the West in the mid- and late

90's. Despite the efforts, Russia was never Westernized, nor did it develop a western Democracy,

nor did it become a Western capitalist society, unless that concept is extended to include

Cleptocratic Oligopolies after the fashion of Robber Barons.

The Nordic countries can't be said to be that well and far away from the cultural influence of theUnited States so much so that they're in completely different cultural spheres and worlds apart.

During the era of Communist Russia the division between the West and the East could be said to

have followed religious division lines, at least here in Finland WW2 had quite a bit to do with good

Christians opposing The Atheistic East.

Consequently religon and religious conflicts still define much of the divisions between East and

West, but now it is increasingly secular and atheistic Europe that finds itself between fundamentalist

religious cultures with imperialistic tendencies on both sides. This however does still not separate

United States into its own hermetic cultural sphere, influences still bleed through both ways across

the Atlantic, as much as they did after WW2.

[]Kirkaine 13 20 puntos hace 8 meses

anti-science the US is essentially a civilization unto its own.

To be clear, we're talking about the country that hasfully half of the postwar scientific Nobel prizes

(60% if you count economics)? The country that invented the transistor, the internet, discovered the

Cosmic Microwave Background, and has sent probes not just to other planets, but out of the

goddamned solar system?

There's a hell of a lot of things that the Western world has in common that define it against the rest

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7/25/2019 CMV_ _Western Civilization_ Doesn't Exist, At Least Not in the Sense of Implying Any Shared Commonality Betwee

3/5

3/1/2016 CMV: "Western civil ization" doesn't exist, at least not in the sense of implying any shared commonality between the US, Europe, Canada, and Australi a/N

https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/34midx/cmv_western_civilization_doesnt_exist_at_least/

of the world. Trial by jury. Elections. Separation of church and state. Women's rights. The rule of

law. These things unite the West a hell of a lot more strongly than incarceration rates or gun laws

(which are almost exactly the same in counties like Canada and Switzerland, incidentally) divide

them. Unfortunately, these are concepts that require reading, rather than taking the first ten results

of a google image search for 'anti-America'.

As for the nonsense idea of just taking every ethnic and political conflict in the world and blaming it

on the US, I really don't know what to say. Apparently the Sunni / Shi'a divide isn'ta 1300 year old

ethnoreligious conflict, it's some kind of battle to see who can be the most anti-American.

[]keepfrgettngmypsswrd 5 puntos hace 8 meses*

As for the nonsense idea of just taking every ethnic and political conflict in the world and

blaming it on the US, I really don't know what to say.

Or the conflict between Catholics and Protestants, most notably in the modern age in Northern

Ireland.

Conflict between religions and between centuries old division lines are most definitely not a

product of American imperialism, or whatever one might want to call American geopolitics. Crisis

in the Balkans in the mid- and late 90's had everything to do with ethnic and religious conflict

brewing from since the Ottoman Empire took over the region.

The conflict within Christian Churches, the Western Catholic and the Eastern Orhodoxy is still

very much reflected in the division into Western culture sphere and Eastern culture sphere in

Europe as well as the whole Western hemisphere. It is no coincidence that the currently active

geopolitical hotbeds in Europe follow the geographical line of division between the Western and

Eastern Christianity.

It might be one of the biggest differences between America and the rest of the world that their

school curriculum can fall so short on educating their citizens about the outside world beyond

United States.

[] [S] -2 puntos hace 8 meses

Canadian and Swiss gun laws are completely different, and the gun culture is too. In Canada,

gun ownership is largely a rural thing andCanadian gun laws are a Byzantine mazecompared to

those of all but the bluest US states. In Switzerland, the military actuallyprovidesguns as part of

conscription, but they aren't actually yours they're state property. As for your other points:

To be clear, we're talking about the country that has fully half of the postwar scientific Nobel

prizes (60% if you count economics)?

Not all American exceptionalism is bad. When the US does so well at something, it also makes it

an outlier in the world (note that I highlighted the nearly-nonexistent informal economy in my

original post).

Trial by jury.

This does not break down along civilization lines.Russia, India, and Japan have juries, but most

of Switzerland does not.

Elections

Most countries, including the People's Republic of China, Russia, and Zambia, have at least

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7/25/2019 CMV_ _Western Civilization_ Doesn't Exist, At Least Not in the Sense of Implying Any Shared Commonality Betwee

4/5

3/1/2016 CMV: "Western civil ization" doesn't exist, at least not in the sense of implying any shared commonality between the US, Europe, Canada, and Australi a/N

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nominal elections.

Separation of church and state

Does this really exist in the US as a whole? Note that the Indiana religious freedom law is written

and enforced in such a way to only protect conservative Christians (businesses can refuse to

cater gay weddings but doctors cannot perform late abortions even if their religion believes that

life beings at birth)

rule of law

I concede this point, at least to some extent.Even though the US government may be corrupt,

there is a clear correlation between degree of Westernization and faith in government.

Counterexamples include the Missouri Republican Party (suspicious "suicides" and an anti-

Semitic "whisper campaign") and the cities of Ferguson, Kinloch, Jennings, and Parma (all in the

Show-me State).

[]Kirkaine 13 4 punto s hace 8 meses

I'm not trying to say that the US has the same gun laws as Switzerland. But it's absurd to try

to defend your claim that the US is uniquely pro-gun, in the same way it's absurd to try toclaim that that the US is uniquely any-science, when the US federal government provides

more than 50% of the world's total spend on climate research.

I'm not talking about nominal elections where only one name appears on the ballot. Truly

free and fair elections are a constant throughout the West, and somewhat uncommon

(though getting better) outside it.

Separation of church and state most certainly exists in the US. The US government is so set

on not privileging Christianity that states place Satanist statues and fire teachers for getting

kids to pray in class. Indiana permitting people to be cunts is nowhere near on the level you

see in countries like Saudi Arabia, where religious police patrol the streets. Again, something

that unites the West (with a few holdouts that maintain purely ceremonial state religions).

As for the rule of law, you seem confused about what the term means. Rule of law doesn't

mean that nobody in the government ever does anything corrupt, it means that members of

the government are held accountable by the law. Yes, not all corrupt cops will be

prosecuted, but that's Blackstone's ratio in effect. Two sitting US presidents have been

impeached, (three if you count Nixon who resigned first). That kind of accountability is

common and largely unique to the West, dating back to at least the Glorious Revolution,

perhaps as far as Charles I.

[] [S]-4 puntos hace 8 meses

Indiana permitting people to be cunts is nowhere near on the level you see in

countries like Saudi Arabia, where religious police patrol the streets.

So why is East Asia the most secular region on earth?

[]Kirkaine 13 9 puntosha ce 8 meses

Largely the efforts of Shang Yang, an advisor to Duke Xiao during the Eastern Zhao

dyanasty, to crush religion in China in order to break the well-field system and bring

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7/25/2019 CMV_ _Western Civilization_ Doesn't Exist, At Least Not in the Sense of Implying Any Shared Commonality Betwee

5/5

3/1/2016 CMV: "Western civil ization" doesn't exist, at least not in the sense of implying any shared commonality between the US, Europe, Canada, and Australi a/N

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peasants into the arms of the state. It's actually an incredibly interesting piece of

history. If you're geniunely interested (and not trying to score cheap points) I have

about a dozen books I could recommend to you on the topic.

Still, it's utterly irrelevant to the topic. Some non-Western countries are secular. That

is a fact. It is not a fact that supports the claim that 'therefore America is completely

different because it's also secular'.

[+] [S]pun tuaci n demasiad o baja (3 hijos)

[]Znyper 3 3 puntos hace 8 meses

What exactly does that have to do with your view or his response? A better response

would be to show how East Asian secularity is more similar to some parts of

"Western Civilization" than others. Simply stating East Asia is very secular does

nothing to further your argument or refute his.

[+] [

S]pun tuaci n demasiad o baja

(4 hijos)

[] IndianPhDStudent 2 puntoshace 8 meses

"Western Civilization" isn't based on political ideologies. It is based on lifestyle. This depends on

history, resources available, advancements made, as well as economic situations. The experience

of a person in an Eastern and Western society gives rise to different sets of priorities, which in turn

leads to different socio-political views, eventually leading in countries and societies where different

ideals are institutionalized.

Take for example National Identity. In Western countries, national identities are either very weak, or

are based on each country exemplifying an ideology. In the rest of the world, national identities are

quite strong, and tied to historical accomplishments and shortcomings of a group of people with

shared culture and lineage.

This is why when we use the term "Western" today, we generally eliminate Eastern Europeans, and

Latin America. It's not "white people we like", it's "people who have similar priorities and expectations

from their life and society". Although, yes, the term "Western civilization" can be used as a "code

word" for something more sinister.

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