CCC Hearing Transcript

7/28/2019 CCC Hearing Transcript

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LONG BEACH, CALIFORNIA

CALIFORNIA COASTAL COMMISSION

REGULAR MEETING OF THE )CALIFORNIA COASTAL COMMISSION: )

) CCC-13-CD-06

) CCC-13-RO-06

in re: Parker and Neraida, LLC ) CCC-13-CD-07

WTCC Ventana Investors V, LLC ) CCC-13-RO-07

Big Sur, Monterey Co. )

______________________________________)

REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF WEBCAST PROCEEDINGS

Long Beach, California

Friday, June 14, 2013

Transcribed by:

TRISHA WIENER

CA CSR No. 13576

JOB No. 304808


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1 LONG BEACH, CALIFORNIA

2 CALIFORNIA COASTAL COMMISSION

3

4 REGULAR MEETING OF THE )

CALIFORNIA COASTAL COMMISSION: )

5 ) CCC-13-CD-06

) CCC-13-RO-06

6 in re: Parker and Neraida, LLC ) CCC-13-CD-07

WTCC Ventana Investors V, LLC ) CCC-13-RO-07

7 Big Sur, Monterey Co. )

______________________________________)

8

9

10

11

12

13

14 REPORTERS TRANSCRIPT OF WEBCAST

15 PROCEEDINGS, pages 1 through 48,

16 taken remotely at 333 South Anita

17 Drive, Suite 840, Orange, California,

18 on Friday, June 14, 2013, by

19 TRISHA WIENER, California Certified

20 Shorthand Reporter No. 13576, in

21 Orange, California.

22

23

24

25


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1 APPEARANCES:

2

3 CALIFORNIA COASTAL COMMISSION:

4 MARY K. SHALLENBERGER, Chair

5 STEVE KINSEY, Vice Chair

6 DAYNA BOCHCO

7 BRIAN BRENNAN

8 DR. ROBERT GARCIA

9 CAROLE GROOM

10 MARTHA MCCLURE

11 WENDY MITCHELL

12 ESTHER SANCHEZ

13 MARK VARGAS

14 JAMES WICKETT

15 JANA ZIMMER

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25


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1 Long Beach, California

2 Friday, June 14, 2013

3 8:30 a.m.

4

508:48 CHAIRWOMAN SHALLENBERGER: Okay. The Commission

6 will now take up Cease and Desist Order number

7 CCC-13, excuse me, CD-06.

8 Will all the alleged violators and/or their

9 representatives please identify themselves for the

1008:48 record.

11 MR. ZABUR: Good morning, Madam Chair.

12 My name is Rick Zabur. I'm here on behalf

13 of Sean Parker and Neraida, LLC.

14 CHAIRWOMAN SHALLENBERGER: Thank you.

1508:49 Staff, would you please indicate for us what

16 matters are already a part of the record?

17 Oh, sorry. Is there somebody else here

18 representing?

19 MR. HABER: Yes, sorry. Jeff Haber from

2008:49 Paul Hastings representing the property owner.

21 Thank you.


23 Anyone else representing the alleged

24 violator? Okay.

2508:49 Staff, would you please indicate what


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1 matters are already a part of the record?

2 MS. HAAGE: Yes, thank you. Good morning,

3 Chair Shallenberger and members of the Commission.

4 The record for today's items consist of the

508:49 contents of the staff report, its attachments and

6 addendum, the public documents, and the violation

7 filed for this matter in today's presentation.

8 As I just noted, there is an addendum that

9 was previously handed out to you that includes a

1008:49 revised exhibit to the orders, a copy of an access

11 agreement we requested the parties sign, some minor

12 additions to the staff report, and several letters

13 regarding this matter. This morning we passed out

14 another letter that we received last evening.

1508:49 Staff is pleased to announce that we have

16 reached a proposed resolution of this matter. Staff

17 has worked with Sean Parker and Neraida, LLC and

18 WTCC Ventana Investors V, LLC, hereinafter known as

19 "the property owner" which we will refer to as "the

2008:50 Ventana Inn" or "the Inn," to come to a proposed

21 resolution of several Coastal Act violations through

22 proposed Consent Cease and Desist and Restoration

23 Orders. Both entities support the issuance of the

24 consent orders.

2508:50 CHAIRWOMAN SHALLENBERGER: Lisa, I need to go


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1 through the rest of the procedures of this before you

2 go into the actual --

3 Okay. And I just want to be clear, I only

4 read one item number, but these are combined, as

508:50 Ms. Haage said, so we're also taking up item number

6 CCC-13-RO-06, CCC-13-CD-07, and CCC-13-RO-07. Two

7 07s, okay.

8 So let me ask, are there any ex partes on

9 this item?

1008:51 Yes, Commissioner?

11 COMMISSIONER GROOM: Madam Chair, yesterday,

12 Thursday at about 6:30 in the morning, I had a very

13 brief conversation with Congresswoman Jackie Speier

14 about this matter.

1508:51 CHAIRWOMAN SHALLENBERGER: Okay.

16 Okay. Now, I'd like to announce the rules

17 of this proceeding since they are different from our

18 other proceedings.

19 Staff, how much time would you need to --

2008:51 including a brief rebuttal, how much time total?

21 MS. HAAGE: 30 minutes.

22 CHAIRWOMAN SHALLENBERGER: Okay.

23 And therefore the alleged violators will

24 also have 30 minutes. And the members of the public

2508:51 will each be given three minutes apiece.


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1 So any person has the right to propose

2 questions for the Commission to ask. Questions can

3 be in writing or proposed orally, but questions

4 cannot be directed at the person who proposes them.

508:51 Commissioners have the discretion to ask any proposed

6 question or not, and questions must be proposed

7 before the public hearing is closed.

8 Now, I'll open the public hearing.

9 And staff, you may proceed.

1008:52 MS. HAAGE: Thank you, Chair Shallenberger.

11 As I said, we reached a proposed settlement

12 in this matter and agenda items 5.1, 5.3, 5.5, and

13 5.7 share a combined staff report and a combined

14 presentation. However, I'd like to preface our

1508:52 normal presentation by highlighting a couple of

16 unusual facts about this matter and providing some

17 background for an explanation of the proposed

18 agreement.

19 The proposed orders that staff is presenting

2008:52 today address several overlapping violations

21 including construction done in preparation for a

22 wedding in a campground in Big Sur and unpermitted

23 closure of that same campground.

24 In very brief summary, and we will have more

2508:52 detail later, the proposed settlements collectively


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1 provide for removal of all unpermitted development,

2 performance of any necessary restoration, payment of

3 penalties, and both funding and performance of a

4 variety of mitigation projects designed to provide

508:53 and improve conservation and public access in the

6 Big Sur area.

7 By way of introduction, Monterey County Code

8 Enforcement first called our attention to the

9 activities at the site beginning in May when they

1008:53 reported to us that substantial development was

11 occurring on the site in preparation for the

12 Parker-Lenas wedding.

13 At that point we knew very little about the

14 specifics of what was occurring or about the permit

1508:53 history of the site; but given the sensitive nature

16 of the area, Commission staff immediately contacted

17 hotel onsite management and legal counsel for the

18 hotel management and asked that all work cease until

19 we could get a better understanding of what was

2008:53 happening. We told them that if they restarted work,

21 they would do so at their own risk.

22 We performed our standard background

23 research to determine whether or not a permit had

24 been issued for the activities and found it had not.

2508:53 We immediately began discussions with both


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1 Mr. Parker's representatives and representatives of

2 the inn's owner and arranged a site visit to get a

3 better sense of the situation which occurred on

4 May 22nd. At that point the wedding was scheduled to

508:54 occur only ten days later, and Mr. Parker had

6 completed the vast majority of his preparations on

7 the site.

8 Fortunately, after reviewing the history and

9 the recent work on the site, our preliminary sense

1008:54 that day was that although the construction was not

11 insignificant, the environmental damage from the

12 wedding-related construction work was less serious

13 than we had originally feared, in part due to the

14 fact that the large majority of the development was

1508:54 performed on a campground and existing road, not in a

16 virgin forest, and the most significant harms arose

17 from the interface of the development with the

18 surrounding forest areas.

19 It was, however, clearly serious enough to

2008:54 require an order to govern its removal and

21 restoration and to ensure it was done consistent with

22 the Coastal Act and in a way which was protective of

23 coastal resources. And we therefore began

24 immediately to work on these orders.

2508:54 We also concluded the wedding itself would


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1 not have additional resource impacts. As you know,

2 often temporary events do not even require a

3 Coastal Permit under certain specified circumstances.

4 And here, our major concerns were with physical

508:55 development. We also considered and decided against

6 taking the unusual step of an executive director

7 order to -- under the Coastal Act to prevent further

8 activities.

9 These kinds of orders, as you know, under

1008:55 the Coastal Act are only short-term measures, and we

11 instead focused on attempting to bring a Commission

12 order forward at this hearing which would provide for

13 full removal of all unpermitted development and any

14 necessary restoration in the most expeditious and

1508:55 protective framework.

16 However, in addition, our investigation

17 revealed a potentially significant public access

18 impact from the inn's unpermitted closure of the

19 campground for the past six years. This Commission

2008:55 had issued permits for more than 30 years earlier for

21 the expansion of a higher-end aspect of the inn

22 complex, relying in part on the continued existence

23 of the preexisting lower-cost-visitor-serving

24 campground to find the then new development

2508:55 approvable under the Coastal Act. In fact, the 1982


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1 permit had expressly prohibited any facility closures

2 without a prior amendment permit.

3 Unfortunately, as we will discuss later, the

4 campground has been closed for six years due to a

508:56 wastewater problem but without any such request

6 having been lodged with the Commission and without

7 the provision of alternative public amenities.

8 We subsequently identified another public

9 access related violation related to an area of the

1008:56 property known as Cadillac Flats which was supposed

11 to be made available for public use and viewing in a

12 public parking area for hikers since 1987.

13 To maximize efficiency and because of the

14 interrelated nature of the violations and the fact

1508:56 that we were already actively engaged in negotiations

16 with both parties, we decided to preserve a joint

17 resolution or at least to coordinate our negotiations

18 between ourselves and Mr. Parker and the inn, in

19 large part because we wanted to get the restoration

2008:56 in place ASAP by bringing you an order at this

21 hearing. And in light of the fact we had a very

22 short time before even late mailing, we began

23 negotiations in earnest and worked over the

24 Memorial Day weekend to negotiate these orders.

2508:57 Although both parties professed an initial


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1 interest in cooperating, there were disagreements

2 between the parties and it soon became clear that the

3 idea of a single coordinated order was not going to

4 be possible in this time frame. We then negotiated

508:57 separately with each party.

6 Mr. Parker expressed immediate interest in

7 working with us to minimize any damage and to ensure

8 that the site was fully restored, and he agreed to

9 pay a million dollar fine. We were aware that

1008:57 Mr. Parker has significant resources and took that

11 into account in evaluating an appropriate penalty

12 amount, including the issue of deterrence, but we

13 largely reached the proposed penalty amount based on

14 the factors enumerated in 30820(c) of the

1508:57 Coastal Act, taking into account the nature and

16 extent of the resource impacts and the immediacy and

17 voluntary nature of the resolution.

18 However, according to the representations of

19 both parties, Mr. Parker and the inn had signed an

2008:57 indemnification agreement such that Mr. Parker would

21 be covering the hotel's penalty as well. And I

22 realize that's been the subject of some confusion

23 reading the two agreements. So he was covering not

24 just their penalty for the role in the

2508:58 wedding-related development, but also for the entire


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1 six years during which it had kept the campground

2 closed without Commission authorization.

3 Mr. Parker indicated to us that he was not

4 disputing the obligation and wanted to pay any

508:58 settlement payments for the hotel related to the

6 unpermitted development for the wedding and

7 campground closure.

8 We were told that the agreement was

9 confidential, so we're not able to discuss the

1008:58 precise terms, but both Mr. Parker and the hotel

11 represented throughout the negotiations that

12 Mr. Parker would pay any costs associated with the

13 inn's liability for those violations.

14 Although this situation, frankly, concerned

1508:58 us on a number of levels, we have no authority over

16 confidential arrangements between private parties,

17 nor the ability to alter them, but we did not agree

18 that the original $1 million would also cover the

19 inn's liability.

2008:58 It was in that context that Mr. Parker

21 volunteered the additional money to fund programs to

22 increase public access and conservation in order to

23 resolve the hotel's liability, and we settled on the

24 1.5 additional million settlement amount in payment

2508:58 for projects to benefit conservation and/or public


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1 access projects.

2 In addition, in mitigation for the

3 violations, Mr. Parker also proposed and therefore

4 agreed to undertake through these orders an

508:59 additional web-based project, either funding,

6 creating, producing, and distributing an online video

7 that highlights coastal conservation and/or public

8 access issues or creating a mobile app that provides

9 information on public access points throughout the

1008:59 coast of California.

11 We should note that none of this money comes

12 to the Commission itself.

13 We continue to negotiate with the inn as

14 well to secure additional on- and off-site

1508:59 improvements such as the construction of new public

16 access trails that would serve as mitigation for the

17 closure of the campground over the last six years in

18 addition to the monetary penalty I just discussed.

19 The inn agreed to provide a new trail along

2008:59 Post Creek as it meanders through the campground and

21 to improve onsite trail connections through the

22 Coast Ridge Trail as well as to the Pine Ridge Trail.

23 They also agreed to a number of additional

24 mitigation measures benefiting public access in the

2508:59 area, including signage alerting the public access --


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1 the general public to the availability of public

2 trails on- and off-site the Ventana property and to

3 provide informational and educational signs regarding

4 trails and parking and to provide informational

509:00 brochures for public hikers.

6 They also agreed to remove invasive,

7 non-native plants on their site and to open the

8 campground as soon as the wastewater issues are

9 resolved, and if at all possible, by this fall. And

1009:00 if it is not opened by the following year, the inn

11 will submit the amendment application required by the

12 original permit. Finally, the inn agreed to provide

13 the overdue public parking at the Cadillac Flats

14 site.

1509:00 So with that background, and I apologize for

16 the length, but we will now turn to the normal staff

17 presentation regarding the violations and resolution.

18 And to do that, I'm going to have Nancy Cave and

19 Aaron McLendon do that presentation.

2009:00 Thank you.


22 MS. CAVE: Thank you.

23 Staff recommends that you issue the proposed

24 Consent Cease and Desist and Restoration Orders which

2509:00 address unpermitted development as well as actions


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1 inconsistent with the previously issued Coastal

2 permit as amended on the Ventana Inn property in

3 Big Sur, Monterey County. As noted above, there are

4 two parties to this matter, Parker and Ventana Inn.

509:01 Next slide. Slide number 2. This is a map

6 showing the approximate location of the property

7 located on the southern end of Big Sur near

8 Big Sur Village and Pfeiffer Big Sur State Park.

9 Next slide. The property has historically

1009:01 provided a mixture of visitor-serving opportunities.

11 Prior to the passage of the Coastal Act, the property

12 contained a privately-run campground and a 14-room

13 inn and spa.

14 In October 1982 the Coastal Commission

1509:01 conditionally approved an expansion to the inn,

16 employee housing, other amenities, and an expansion

17 to the existing campground. The Commission-approved

18 permit specifically required the inn to apply for an

19 amendment if they proposed to close any of the

2009:01 existing facilities, including the campground.

21 In June 1986 the Commission approved an

22 amendment to the permit which, among other things,

23 involved a proposal by the applicant to change how it

24 would manage a public area to be created at

2509:02 Cadillac Flats. Instead of installing a restroom and


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1 picnic facilities due to water supply concerns,

2 Ventana Inn offered to develop Cadillac Flats as a

3 trailhead and public viewing area with public parking

4 and to contribute funds to state parks improvements.

509:02 The condition that required the inn to apply for an

6 amendment to close any facilities including the

7 campground remained part of the amended permit in

8 1986.

9 Next slide. Slide number 4. This is an

1009:02 aerial view of the Ventana property showing the Inn

11 and Spa Cadillac Flats, and a campground. So the --

12 that's the spa and Cadillac Flats is below that, and

13 then up above is where the campground is.

14 The Ventana Inn complex is located on the

1509:03 inland side of Highway One, and trails on the

16 property lead to the Los Padres National Forest and

17 Pfeiffer Big Sur State Park.

18 Next slide. Slide number 5. On May 2nd

19 Monterey County staff contacted Central Coast

2009:03 Commission staff regarding a report of unpermitted

21 development occurring within the Ventana Inn

22 property. After a site visit on May 22nd, Commission

23 staff determined that development was occurring

24 within the Ventana campground portion of the

2509:03 property, primarily on top of existing roads and


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1 campsites. The campground sites and roads were

2 recontoured and multiple structures were installed.

3 As you can see in this slide, there is a stone

4 bridge, an artificial pond, and several potted

509:03 plants.

6 Next slide. Slide number 6. Rock walls, an

7 elevated dance platform, rock stairways, an

8 artificial pond with a water feature, and a bridge

9 had been built and installed on the property. Over

1009:04 100 potted trees and plants were brought in and

11 partially buried within the existing roadbed in their

12 pots to appear natural. In addition, rock walls and

13 an elevated dance platform and rock stairways were

14 also installed on the property. The development was

1509:04 occurring due to a wedding scheduled to occur on

16 June 1st.

17 Since the Commission had issued the 1982

18 permit for the expansion of the inn, the Commission

19 has jurisdiction over the unpermitted development and

2009:04 for future regulatory action regarding the

21 development activities. No permits had been obtained

22 for the development activities from local, state, or

23 federal government. Further, the existing campground

24 had been rented out for the June 1st event.

2509:04 Next slide. Slide number 7. Upon staff


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1 investigation, it was discovered that Ventana had

2 closed the campground in September of 2007 as a

3 result of an order to close issued by Monterey County

4 Department of Environmental Health.

509:04 In October of 2007 the Central Coast

6 Regional Water Quality Control Board ordered Ventana

7 to remove its failing septic and leach fields and

8 replace the failing systems with a new sewer

9 treatment facility. However, Ventana failed to

1009:05 request or obtain a permit amendment to close the

11 existing campground as required by the Commission in

12 approving the 1982 permit and the 1986 amendment

13 which would have addressed the extent to which it was

14 appropriate to provide an alternative public amenity

1509:05 to replace this underlying provision in their permit.

16 This photo shows one of the approximately

17 100 campsites within the campground that has been

18 closed by Ventana since -- since September 2007.

19 In addition, Ventana had failed to develop

2009:05 Cadillac Flats as a public use area with parking and

21 instead had used Cadillac Flats as overflow parking

22 for the inn and restaurant events.

23 Next slide. Slide number 8. The placement

24 of multiple structures, walls, and a bridge, creation

2509:06 of an artificial pond, and the closure of the


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1 campground that is to be open to the public clearly

2 constitute development as defined by the Coastal Act.

3 The Coastal Permit or amendment to the underlying

4 permit was not issued to authorize these activities.

509:06 And as already noted, some of the development is also

6 inconsistent with the permit.

7 Next slide. Slide number 9. Coastal Act

8 Sections 30810 and 30811 collectively authorize

9 issuance of Cease and Desist and Restoration Orders

1009:06 when the Commission finds that development occurred

11 without a permit or inconsistent with any permit

12 previously issued by the Commission, development is

13 inconsistent with the Coastal Act, and development is

14 causing continuing resource damage. Each of these

1509:06 standards has been met in this case as more fully

16 described on pages 17 through 22 of the staff report.

17 As shown on the previous few slides,

18 development has occurred without a permit and is

19 inconsistent with the previously-issued permit

2009:06 satisfying the first criterion. And I'll briefly

21 summarize the other two criterion in the next few

22 slides.

23 Slide number 10. Next slide. The second

24 criterion for issuance of the Restoration Order that

2509:07 development is inconsistent with the Coastal Act has


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1 also been satisfied. The unpermitted development and

2 development inconsistent with the previously-issued

3 permit is not consistent with several Coastal Act

4 Resource Protection Policies including provisions

509:07 related to public access, recreation, and

6 environmentally-sensitive habitat areas. The

7 development fails to protect and enhance lower-cost

8 visitor-serving and recreational opportunities and

9 facilities. The development also occupied coastal

1009:07 upland areas designated to support coastal

11 recreational uses.

12 The inn was required to apply for an

13 amendment prior to any closure of the public

14 campground and has failed to do so since

1509:07 September 2011 -- '07. The inn was also required to

16 provide a public viewing and trailhead area with

17 public parking at Cadillac Flats consistent with the

18 1986 amendment and has failed to do so.

19 The unpermitted development is inconsistent

2009:08 with Section 30213 and 30223 of the Coastal Act

21 because it fails to protect lower-cost

22 visitor-serving amenities.

23 Next slide. Slide number 11. The

24 development activities have taken place on property

2509:08 which is part of a redwood forest. A coastal stream


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1 which provides habitat and spawning grounds for

2 coastal steelhead trout runs through the campground.

3 Structures, walls, and elevated platforms have been

4 constructed immediately adjacent to the coastal

509:08 stream without using any type of buffering setback.

6 Additionally, structures have been built up to and

7 around existing red trees -- redwood trees and

8 vegetation within the campground. Development

9 occurred without erosion control measures in place,

1009:08 and a failure to control erosion may have impacted

11 the coastal stream.

12 Beyond immediate physical damage to

13 individual trees, the failure to provide adequate

14 buffering setbacks can negatively impact the

1509:09 underground root structure by which redwoods use to

16 reproduce, thus impeding propagation. The

17 unpermitted development, thus, has impacted the

18 existing redwood forest habitat and has likely caused

19 sedimentation of Post Creek.

2009:09 The unpermitted development is inconsistent

21 with 302 -- Section 30240 which requires careful

22 siting and design of development proposed adjacent to

23 environmentally-sensitive habitat areas.

24 Next slide. Slide number 12. The third and

2509:09 final criterion for issuance of a Restoration Order


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1 that development is causing continuing resource

2 damage is -- is also satisfied here. On the slide

3 there are two photos. The photo on the left side

4 depicts a portion of the -- excuse me. The photo on

509:10 the left side depicts a portion of the elevated dance

6 platform located adjacent to Post Creek which runs to

7 the left of the depicted platform portion. The photo

8 on the right depicts some of the rock walls installed

9 immediately adjacent to a redwood tree.

1009:10 The unpermitted development has not been

11 addressed, and the damage to coastal resources is

12 continuing.

13 And now Aaron McLendon will describe the

14 terms of the order.

1509:10 MR. MCLENDON: Next slide, please.

16 MS. HAAGE: Actually, we're a slide ahead. She

17 was referring to the slide before that.

18 MR. MCLENDON: So one more slide. Slide 14,

19 please. Or slide 13. One more, please.

2009:10 The Parker and Ventana consent orders

21 collectively provide for the resolution of the

22 campground closure violation and the violations

23 associated with the construction of the wedding venue

24 within the campground on the Ventana property.

2509:11 The focus of these orders and this


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1 proceeding is on those specific violations and does

2 not address any other violations here or elsewhere.

3 Through the consent orders, Parker has

4 agreed to remove all development that was placed

509:11 within the campground for the wedding event and

6 restore where necessary any areas that was impacted

7 by the placement of the development. Ventana has

8 specifically agreed to allow Parker access to the

9 property, to not interfere with the restoration

1009:11 activities, and to cooperate in the restoration.

11 Parker has already submitted draft

12 restoration plans and Commission staff has reviewed

13 them and determined that they are consistent with the

14 requirements of the Parker orders so that the removal

1509:11 and restoration can begin as soon as possible if the

16 orders are approved today.

17 Special care is required to be taken to

18 ensure that removal activities do not impact redwoods

19 or riparian habitat and that the restoration efforts

2009:11 will leave the campground area restored.

21 Next slide, please. Slide 15. In addition,

22 the consent orders collectively resolve civil

23 liabilities for the construction of the wedding venue

24 and for the closure of the campground. Parker has

2509:12 agreed to pay $1 million to address his liabilities


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1 for the unpermitted construction of the wedding

2 venue.

3 Both Parker and the Ventana have also agreed

4 to resolve their civil liabilities for the closure of

509:12 the Ventana campground since 2007 by paying a minimum

6 of $1.5 million to fund one or more conservation or

7 public access projects or programs in the Big Sur

8 area or if not available in Big Sur, in the Central

9 District area.

1009:12 Next slide, please. Slide 16. To account

11 for the temporal loss of coastal resources caused by

12 the construction activities for the wedding event and

13 for the closure of the campground since 2007,

14 Mr. Parker through his respective consent orders has

1509:13 agreed to undertake additional mitigation projects.

16 A week before their wedding, both Mr. Parker

17 and his wife met with staff to discuss creative

18 solutions for mitigation projects that would enhance

19 the Commission's work in protecting coastal

2009:13 resources. Mr. Parker brought several ideas for

21 staff's review and after several hours of discussions

22 reached consensus on Mr. Parker's offer to fund and

23 implement the public education and communications

24 program first focused on coastal conservation and

2509:13 public access.


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1 The idea for this project is for Parker to

2 create, produce, and distribute an online public

3 education video. The video will highlight the

4 importance of coastal conservation and public access

509:13 as well as the importance of protecting, preserving,

6 and enhancing coastal resources and will be spread to

7 an audience well beyond that which we typically reach

8 through media and our public education outlets.

9 If the ED and Parker agree that the video

1009:14 concept is not feasible, Parker has proposed and

11 agrees to implement an alternative public education

12 communication program with the aim of making

13 information about coastal access points more readily

14 available to the public by integrating the

1509:14 Commission's coastal access point data with an

16 existing location-based computer mapping application

17 for mobile devices. Or to the extent that such an

18 app does not exist, then via the development of such

19 a mapping app for those devices such as phones and

2009:14 tablets.

21 As you may have heard, an app was recently

22 produced that provides information and locations of

23 all public access points in the City of Malibu.

24 Parker's project would be similar to this but on a

2509:14 state-wide level which would be a tremendous asset to


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1 all visitors to the coast assuming, of course, that

2 they have a mobile device, which most people do now.

3 Slide 17, please. Ventana has also agreed

4 to undertake mitigation projects to offset the

509:15 closure of the campground since 2007. Since there

6 are a number of public hiking trails and amenities on

7 and adjacent to the property, they have agreed to

8 provide a number of projects that will enhance public

9 access and recreation opportunities on their property

1009:15 and in some cases adjacent to their property.

11 Through the consent orders, Ventana will

12 enhance the existing campground facilities and

13 support structures and re-open the campground for

14 year-round public use. They will create and maintain

1509:15 new public access trails in the vicinity of the inn

16 which will provide significant connections to

17 existing trails.

18 As part of the settlement, Ventana has also

19 agreed to enhance and clearly mark the availability

2009:15 of public parking at Cadillac Flats -- of the

21 Cadillac Flats trailhead, and install public access

22 signs and new trailhead markers to highlight the

23 public's ability to use and enjoy these public

24 trails.

2509:15 Ventana has agreed to report a deed


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1 restriction indicating that the new trail length on

2 the property shall remain unimpeded and open for

3 public use.

4 Finally, they have agreed to produce and

509:16 provide a public access management plan and publish

6 and provide a brochure for the public clearly

7 identifying all public access trails and amenities on

8 the property.

9 Next slide. Slide 18. In conclusion, staff

1009:16 recommends that the Commission issue the proposed

11 Consent Cease and Desist and Restoration Orders to

12 resolve the violations. The consent orders require

13 the removal and restoration activities, provide for

14 enhancement of public access and recreation

1509:16 opportunities on and around the Ventana property.

16 And finally, the consent orders resolve civil

17 liabilities for both the wedding-related development

18 as well as the closure of the campground.

19 Staff would like to thank both Mr. Parker

2009:16 and Ventana for their cooperation and commitment to

21 working with staff to reach this agreement and

22 resolve the violations as quickly as possible. We

23 look forward to working together in implementing the

24 proposed consent orders and all their amenities.

2509:17 There are four motions for this matter, and


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1 they can be found on pages 8 and 9 of the staff

2 report. And that concludes staff's presentation, and

3 we're happy to answer any questions that you might

4 have.

509:17 CHAIRWOMAN SHALLENBERGER: All right. Thank

6 you.

7 Now we will go to the alleged violator.

8 Rick Zabur, are you the leadoff here? You have --

9 How much time is that left, five minutes?

1009:17 However you want to do it, you have

11 30 minutes.

12 MR. ZABUR: I will take 10, and that's what I

13 will need.

14 Good morning, Commissioners. Honorable

1509:17 Commissioners, my name is Rick Zabur here on behalf

16 of Sean Parker and Neraida, LLC.

17 We wanted to start out by saying that we

18 appreciate staff's efforts to bring this matter

19 forward to the Commission as quickly as they have.

2009:17 Because of staff's interest in resolving these issues

21 expeditiously, they worked over a holiday weekend,

22 gave away vacation time, and endured many late

23 nights. And we thank them for that and are very

24 appreciative of their hard work.

2509:18 As noted in our letter, we support the


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1 consent orders and ask that the Commission adopt

2 staff's recommendation to approve them.

3 I'm sure that you've all seen at least some

4 of the media coverage of Mr. Parker's wedding.

509:18 Unfortunately, much of it has been grossly

6 inaccurate, and I'd like to make a number of points.

7 First, Mr. Parker has asked me to extend his

8 sincere apologies to the Commission. He regrets and

9 apologizes for the circumstances that led to today's

1009:18 proceedings and for the amount of time that it has

11 taken your staff to resolve issues that have been

12 raised.

13 The one thing that I'd like to say, though,

14 as we indicated in our letter, is that neither

1509:18 Mr. Parker nor his contractors understood that the

16 Coastal Commission had any jurisdiction over the

17 area, nor that Coastal Development Permits might be

18 needed.

19 Although we understand that some have

2009:18 suggested that perhaps Mr. Parker and his contractors

21 should have known more, Mr. Parker's contractors --

22 or known better, Mr. Parker's contractors worked with

23 the hotel's catering department on a regular basis

24 and the potential need for Coastal Development

2509:19 Permits was never flagged.


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1 In addition, Mr. Parker does not own

2 property in the California Coastal Zone, is not the

3 owner of the campground, thought he was renting a

4 commercial enterprise, and neither Mr. Parker nor his

509:19 contractors could have obtained permits without the

6 hotel's assistance because he's not the property

7 owner.

8 Nevertheless, as soon as Mr. Parker found

9 out about the Commission's jurisdiction, he stepped

1009:19 forward and assumed responsibility for the alleged

11 unpermitted development by working cooperatively with

12 the Commission staff.

13 Second, the press reports have grossly

14 misrepresented what occurred at the campground site,

1509:19 some going as far as suggesting that a redwood grove

16 was bulldozed. In response, I'd like to point out

17 that not a single tree was removed, nor was there any

18 plant understory impacted.

19 The site of the wedding is a developed

2009:19 campground. It was identified by the Save the

21 Redwood League, who Mr. Parker consulted with in

22 choosing the site, because it already had large

23 cleared areas such as parking lots, asphalt and

24 non-asphalt roads, and campsite congregations that

2509:20 were large enough to host the wedding ceremony and


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1 the related wedding elements.

2 All of the work related to the wedding was

3 done on these existing asphalt roads and dirt roads,

4 the existing parking lots, and the existing graded

509:20 campsite pads that had no plant understory. And as I

6 said, not a single tree was removed, nor was there

7 any plant understory impacted because these were in

8 cleared areas.

9 The consent order and the staff recommends

1009:20 approval of what would implement rigorous protective

11 protocols that will protect the redwoods and the

12 Post Creek during the removal of the wedding

13 elements. These protocols will ensure a quick and

14 full restoration of the campground to its prior

1509:20 conditions.

16 Third, as we stated in our letter, the size

17 of the financial payments cover both work connected

18 with Mr. Parker's wedding and the hotel's alleged

19 violations in connection with the campground closure

2009:21 which began in 2007 and which the hotel concedes

21 Mr. Parker had nothing to do with because it was

22 closed for other reasons.

23 Staff initially proposed resolving these

24 issues relating to the wedding for $1 million and

2509:21 some additional program funding for some of these


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1 public access kinds of programs which Mr. Parker

2 agreed to, provided that the penalty amounts also

3 covered the hotel's penalties.

4 This was important to him because he was

509:21 subject to an indemnity agreement requiring him to

6 cover costs and expenses relating to the wedding,

7 including expenses relating to the wedding covering

8 the hotel's actions and inactions. And the hotel was

9 claiming that the wedding itself had caused the

1009:21 Enforcement focus on the campground closure and

11 therefore that it extended to the campground closure.

12 Although we didn't necessarily concede that

13 the indemnity was that broad, we wanted to work this

14 out with the staff and thought it was important that

1509:22 we cover all of those penalties in order to make sure

16 that both parties were willing to resolve this.

17 Mr. Parker then offered and agreed to

18 provide an additional 1.5 million in funding for

19 conservation, coastal access, and educational

2009:22 programs in addition to the $1 million payment

21 because in the discussions with Coastal staff at that

22 five-hour meeting, he wanted to provide a meaningful

23 public benefit.

24 In particular, Mr. Parker is interested in

2509:22 exploring the purchase of a campground in Big Sur


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1 that would serve underprivileged youth in the

2 Bay Area, although there is a process in the order

3 that requires consultation with your staff in the

4 selection of what will be -- what will be funded.

509:22 Because these consent orders provide

6 substantial compensation for the alleged unpermitted

7 development and will further the Coastal Act's goals

8 by supporting coastal access, conservation, and

9 education, we ask that you adopt staff's

1009:22 recommendations and approve the consent orders.

11 Thank you very much. I'm available for any

12 questions if any of you have them.

13 CHAIRWOMAN SHALLENBERGER: All right. Thank

14 you.

1509:22 And Jeffrey Haber, are you also part of

16 this?

17 MR. HABER: Yes, hi. Jeff Haber from

18 Paul Hastings representing the property owner.

19 I'll be very brief because I think that

2009:23 staff did a very thorough and complete job of

21 describing what had happened, but essentially what I

22 want to do is just thank staff. As they mentioned,

23 they worked tirelessly to try to resolve these issues

24 in a very quick time frame, including over

2509:23 Memorial Day weekend. I joked with Lisa that I was


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1 getting E-mails from her at 1:00 in the morning and

2 then again at 6:00 the next morning, so you have a

3 very hard-working staff.

4 I'm obviously available to discuss any of

509:23 the substantive issues if you would like to, but I

6 really don't have anything to add to the staff

7 presentation at this time. Thank you.

8 CHAIRWOMAN SHALLENBERGER: All right. Thank

9 you.

1009:23 And then I have a speaker slip from

11 Cary Kleinman, who I believe is not representing the

12 alleged violators; is that right? Didn't identify

13 himself or --

14 MR. HABER: Yes. Cary Kleinman is with the

1509:23 owners of the hotel, so he's available for questions

16 if you have them.

17 CHAIRWOMAN SHALLENBERGER: All right.

18 Wonderful.

19 Okay. Penny Alia, you'll have three

2009:24 minutes.

21 MS. ALIA: Good morning, Commission.

22 Penny Alia. I've spoken before you for many years on

23 enforcement matters. And so as you probably know, I

24 am a huge fan of your Enforcement Division, and I

2509:24 think they do a wonderful job. I only wish that when


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1 the media decides to cover violators, that they'd go

2 a little deeper because I have some folks in my

3 neighborhood that I'd certainly like to have some

4 coverage on.

509:24 But that aside, I think the term that was

6 used was that Mr. Parker has "significant resources,"

7 and I'm very aware of this. I'm very aware that

8 significant resources are being applied here, but

9 just a couple of other suggestions.

1009:25 There are two very important bills going

11 through right now, AB 976 and 203. I, like you, have

12 been reading all the media, and it says that he's

13 very interested in doing lobbying when he returns

14 from his honeymoon. It would be really great if we

1509:25 could have those two bills spoken about by

16 Mr. Parker. I think he probably better understands

17 the content of them and how meaningful they would be.

18 One of the things that we really also need

19 is when environmental advocates need to go to

2009:25 Sacramento and lobby, he's welcome to donate to

21 airfare funds for Sierra Club, Surf Rider,

22 Coast Keeper. We could all use that help.

23 Additional dollars for Enforcement staff.

24 I'd also like to know what is the value of

2509:26 the web-based project, what's the value of the public


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1 app, the app for the public access. And then as far

2 as the opening of the campground, it would be great

3 if that was date-specific.

4 And it would also be really good to know

509:26 what their reservation capabilities are. That's

6 going to be a really popular campground. Think of

7 Crystal Cove Cottages and how long it takes, the

8 waiting list it takes, to get into Crystal Cove.

9 I'm not convinced these folks -- pardon me. I know

1009:26 they're sitting right here.

11 Perhaps management might want to look at

12 their reservation system and make sure that they know

13 how to handle these new campers since it's going to

14 be a little foreign to them after all these years.

1509:26 So just some thoughts, and I support the

16 consent order. And it's nice to be on the same side

17 of the fence with Mr. Zabur.

18 CHAIRWOMAN SHALLENBERGER: All right. Thank you

19 very much.

2009:27 Now we will go back to staff and you have up

21 to five minutes for any rebuttal you'd like to make.

22 MS. HAAGE: Thank you, Chair.

23 Just a couple of things quickly. We -- we

24 appreciate the comments that were made by the

2509:27 parties, including Penny Alia who is not a party.


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1 A couple of quick notes. We don't have a

2 hard-and-fast number on the value of the web-based

3 mitigation project proposed by Mr. Parker. We had

4 some conversations with them. It is -- it is in the

509:27 nature of hundreds of thousands of dollars for either

6 of the options. It depends on exactly what is in

7 existence and how much has to be created out of whole

8 cloth exactly how much either of those options would

9 cost.

1009:27 And the other question that I heard, and if

11 I missed any, I'd be happy to answer other ones, what

12 is the date certain on the opening of the campground;

13 and that we're a little less certain about because it

14 depends on the success of tests currently being done

1509:28 on the wastewater treatment facilities at the site.

16 And I think the hotel could answer that

17 also, but we've had conversations with the

18 Regional Board and the County Health Department. And

19 the order requires that it be opened 30 days after

2009:28 the order is lifted, and then there's an outside

21 date. And the target date is October of this year,

22 but the outside date that the agreement requires it

23 to be opened or some other measure taken is

24 October of 2014.

2509:28 And so we were trying to work with the


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1 County and the Regional Board and not step on their

2 toes and acknowledge that there's an ongoing process

3 but also give some forward motion to the need to get

4 that opened up quickly.

509:28 Thank you.

6 CHAIRWOMAN SHALLENBERGER: Okay. We'll come

7 back to the Commission for deliberation.

8 Commissioner Wickett?

9 COMMISSIONER WICKETT: I move that the

1009:28 Commission issue Consent Cease and Desist Order

11 CCC-13-CD-06 pursuant to the staff recommendation and

12 recommend a yes vote.

13 CHAIRWOMAN SHALLENBERGER: Moved by

14 Commissioner Wickett, seconded by

1509:29 Commissioner Vargas.

16 Would you like to speak to your motion?

17 COMMISSIONER WICKETT: Yes. It's -- you know,

18 obviously Mr. Parker loves the California coast as we

19 all do sitting up here because he had chose to have

2009:29 his wedding. And his new wife, I'm sure, loves it as

21 much as he does as well. It's funny if you ask each

22 of us how we got to love the California coast and I

23 know our path here in each case is probably

24 different, and his may become the most memorable.

2509:29 So I wish him success in that pursuit in the


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1 future and look forward to seeing what he does for

2 the California coast and look forward to working with

3 him to that end.

4 CHAIRWOMAN SHALLENBERGER: Commissioner Vargas,

509:29 to your second? All right.

6 Seeing none, I have a --

7 Oh, sorry. Commissioner Mitchell?

8 COMMISSIONER MITCHELL: I just want to say,

9 first, I was a little tardy to the meeting, but I

1009:30 read the staff report and followed this.

11 And I just want to congratulate the staff

12 for working so hard, and it's nice when -- I can't

13 imagine the stress of having your wedding and all of

14 this going on at the same time. I mean, I know I was

1509:30 personally Bridezilla at a couple points in my life,

16 so I'm sure it was very stressful.

17 But I just wanted to say it's nice when

18 mistakes are made and then people step up and then go

19 above and beyond what -- what even staff requested.

2009:30 And so I think that's really admirable and nice that,

21 you know, he was both able to do that and did that

22 for the coast.

23 Thank you.

24 CHAIRWOMAN SHALLENBERGER: Commissioner Sanchez?

2509:30 COMMISSIONER SANCHEZ: Thank you, Madam Chair.


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1 I also wanted to compliment staff and the

2 Parkers and -- and, you know, the campground owners

3 for working so well together on this.

4 And certainly I'm excited that there's

509:31 another true believer in what is so precious here for

6 all of us and what we all try to hope to make

7 available for future generations, make it available,

8 make it better, and make it accessible to as many

9 people as possible.

1009:31 So thank you very much, and I wish them

11 well. Thank you.

12 CHAIRWOMAN SHALLENBERGER: All right. I just

13 want to say that I -- I think that Mr. Parker's

14 responsibility toward the inn for the discovery of

1509:31 these violations is merely simply that he was

16 responsible for bringing Coastal Commission staff

17 onto the -- into the inn grounds.

18 These are long-time violations. By my

19 addition, it's six years of violations which we

2009:31 didn't know about and have nothing to do with -- with

21 the wedding.

22 And I'm just concerned, if I could ask

23 staff, aside from the enforcement order that's before

24 us now, I'm hoping now that we are looking at the inn

2509:32 and making sure that there's full compliance of their


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1 permit. I think it's stunning that an inn like this

2 has been out of compliance with its permit conditions

3 for this long.

4 I'm not critical of staff. We didn't know

509:32 about it. We are all well aware that we are

6 understaffed in Enforcement, and this strikes me that

7 their past history here has been for them cost of

8 doing business and they were lucky enough that

9 Mr. Parker wanted to have a wedding there so -- to

1009:32 get their, you know, violations covered, but I want

11 to be sure that -- that we going forward after this

12 order are confident that they are really being

13 addressed.

14 MS. HAAGE: Thank you, Chair Shallenberger.

1509:33 I will say that we have looked now closely,

16 belatedly, at the permits and amendments that apply

17 to the inn facility. And we have a better feeling

18 for where we would go in the future regarding this

19 facility.

2009:33 I will say that although this settlement

21 only directly addresses the public campground closure

22 and the development of the wedding, one thing that we

23 did include in the order which is on page 6 of the

24 Ventana order, Section 12.5 provides that they have

2509:33 an affirmative obligation to comply with the permit


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1 requirements of their original permit and that

2 they're supposed to submit a plan to us to

3 demonstrate compliance with that permit.

4 So we're hoping that we've set forth a

509:33 process in the future that will allow us at least at

6 this facility to ensure that they're -- that they are

7 in compliance going forward.

8 CHAIRWOMAN SHALLENBERGER: Okay. Good. Thank

9 you very much.

1009:33 And then I have a question for the

11 representative of the inn, if he would come forward.

12 I would like to ask the question that was posed --

13 the one question posed by the member of the public

14 which our staff didn't address and that is what is

1509:34 your capacity to handle reservations. You've been

16 out of the business of reservations on that

17 campground now for six years.

18 And so aside from the on-the-ground, you

19 know, work that you need to do, once it's opened,

2009:34 hopefully of October of this year but October of next

21 year it sounds like at the latest, what are your

22 plans to make sure that you have the capacity to

23 handle the reservations?

24 MR. HABER: One of the things that we're

2509:34 required to do as part of these consent orders is put


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1 together a plan for approval by the executive

2 director. And we will, as part of that, be

3 discussing the reservation system; so we will make

4 sure that we have a plan in place that's satisfactory

509:34 to staff to make sure that that happens.

6 CHAIRWOMAN SHALLENBERGER: Okay. Thank you.

7 Because I don't need -- I mean, I'm stating

8 the obvious. Ventana is one of the -- we have many

9 beautiful spots on our coast, but it's a huge

1009:35 attraction for the public and it needs to be

11 available. And that's your responsibility, and it's

12 part of the condition of your permit that people who

13 perhaps can't afford to stay in the inn have a place

14 to stay in that area so --

1509:35 MR. HABER: Sure.

16 CHAIRWOMAN SHALLENBERGER: You know, I thank

17 Mr. Parker for having his wedding there so we

18 discovered all the violations and the six years where

19 the public has not had access.

2009:35 MR. HABER: And I should point out that we are

21 putting in a -- you know, as staff mentioned, the

22 reason that the campground's been closed is because

23 of a septic system. We are putting in a brand-new

24 municipal-quality sewer system that will be better

2509:35 than anything that's ever been there before.


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1 And we're looking forward to having the

2 campground open because we want the people to come

3 back to use the campground as well.

4 CHAIRWOMAN SHALLENBERGER: Good. Then we have

509:35 common goals here.

6 Oh, sorry. I need your name for the record.

7 MR. HABER: Sorry. Jeff Haber.


9 MR. HABER: Thank you.

1009:35 CHAIRWOMAN SHALLENBERGER: And then I just want

11 to also point out that this is a stellar example of

12 why Assembly Member Atkins Bill 976 is needed.

13 If Mr. Parker had not been willing to settle

14 with us, if he had dug his heels in and said, "Heck

1509:36 no," you know, our option -- only option would have

16 been to go to court on this issue. So I thank him

17 for doing it voluntarily and working with our staff;

18 but had -- had he not been willing to do that, we

19 would not have the authority to impose or even

2009:36 require that he negotiate with us and accept any kind

21 of penalty.

22 So I think -- I thank him for doing that,

23 but to me it's a -- you know, the poster child of why

24 this bill is essential for us to adequately be able

2509:36 to protect the coast and enforce the Coastal Act.


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1 So with that, is there any unwillingness to

2 vote?

3 All right. Do we need a roll call on this?

4 Okay. Is there any unwillingness for a

509:37 unanimous yes vote?

6 Seeing none, the Commission hereby issues

7 the Consent Cease and Desist Order CCC-13-CD-06.


9 COMMISSIONER WICKETT: I move that the

1009:37 Commission issue a Consent Restoration Order Number

11 CCC-13-RO-06 pursuant to the staff recommendation and

12 recommend a yes vote on it.



1509:37 Commissioner Vargas.

16 Is there any unwillingness to vote, any

17 unwillingness for a unanimous yes vote?

18 Seeing none, unanimously passes.


2009:37 COMMISSIONER WICKETT: I move that the

21 Commission issue Consent Cease and Desist Order

22 Number CCC-13-CD-07 pursuant to the staff

23 recommendation and recommend a yes vote.


2509:37 Commissioner Wickett, seconded by


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1 Commissioner Vargas.

2 Any unwillingness to vote, any unwillingness

3 for a unanimous yes vote?

4 Seeing none, we unanimously approve the

509:38 motion.

6 COMMISSIONER WICKETT: And finally --

7 CHAIRWOMAN SHALLENBERGER: Commissioner Wickett?

8 COMMISSIONER WICKETT: And finally, I move that

9 the Commission issue Consent Restoration Order Number

1009:38 CCC-13-RO-07 pursuant to the staff's recommendation

11 and recommend a yes vote.



14 Commissioner Vargas.

1509:38 Any unwillingness for a unanimous yes vote

16 on this?

17 Seeing none, the Commission hereby issues

18 Consent Restoration Orders set forth in this staff

19 report and adopts the findings set forth in the staff

2009:38 report as well.

21 Thank you very much.

22 MS. HAAGE: Thank you.

23 /

24 /

25


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1

2

3

4 I, the undersigned, a Certified Shorthand

5 Reporter of the State of California, do hereby

6 certify:

7 That the foregoing proceedings were taken

8 before me at the time and place herein set forth;

9 that any witnesses in the foregoing proceedings,

10 prior to testifying, were placed under oath; that a

11 verbatim record of the proceedings was made by me

12 using machine shorthand which was thereafter

13 transcribed under my direction; further, that the

14 foregoing is an accurate transcription thereof.

15 I further certify that I am neither

16 financially interested in the action nor a relative

17 or employee of any attorney of any of the parties.

18 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have this date

19 subscribed my name.

20

21 Dated: _____________________________________________

22

23

________________________________________

24 TRISHA WIENER, CSR, CLR

CSR No. 13576

25


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A

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new 10:24 14:1514:19 19:8

27:15,22 28:1

37:13 39:20

nice 37:16 40:1240:17,20

nights 29:23non-asphalt

31:24

non-native 15:7normal 7:1515:16

note 14:11noted 5:8 16:3

20:5 29:25

notes 38:1number 4:6 6:4

6:5 13:15

14:23 16:5

17:9,18 18:6

18:25 19:23

20:7,23 21:23

22:24 27:6,8

30:6 38:2

46:10,22 47:9

O

oath 48:10obligation 13:4


55/60

6/14/2013

www.biehletal.com

55

42:25

obtain 19:10obtained 18:21

31:5

obvious 44:8obviously 35:4

39:18

occupied 21:9occur 9:5 18:15occurred 9:3

20:10,18 22:9

31:14

occurring 8:118:14 17:21,23

18:15

October 16:1419:5 38:21,24

43:20,20offer 25:22offered 17:2

33:17

offset 27:4off-site 14:14

15:2

Oh 4:17 40:745:6

okay 4:5,24 6:36:7,15,16,22

35:19 39:643:8 44:6 46:4

once 43:19ones 38:11ongoing 39:2online 14:6 26:2onsite 8:17

14:21

on-the-ground43:18

open 7:8 15:720:1 28:2 45:2

opened 15:1038:19,23 39:4

43:19

opening 37:238:12

opportunities16:10 21:8

27:9 28:15

option 45:15,15options 38:6,8orally 7:3Orange 2:17,21order 4:

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