Case 3:75-cr-00026-F Document 136-5 Filed 04/17/2006 …€¦ · ted gunderson cross vol 101 you...
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Transcript of Case 3:75-cr-00026-F Document 136-5 Filed 04/17/2006 …€¦ · ted gunderson cross vol 101 you...
TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 101
YOU WERE NOT OKAY WHERE WERE YOU MR GUNDERSON
AUGUST 74 WAS IN MEMPHIS TENNESSEE IN CHARGE OF
THE MEMPHIS BUREAU
OKAY
AND WHAT WAS THE OTHER DATE 75JANUARY OF 75
JANUARY OF 75 WOULD HAYE BEEN IN DALLAS TEXAS
OKAY WELL LET ME ASK YOU DID YOU AT ANY TIME IN
10 ANY OF YOUR DUTY ASSIGNMENTS IN THE FBI HAVE ANYTHING
11 TO DO WITH THE MACDONALD CASE
12 ABSOLUTELY NOT
13 OKAY SO YOU REALLY DONT HAVE ANY PERSONAL
14 KNOWLEDGE FROM HAVING BEEN AT THE CRIME SCENE OR
15 YOU KNOW HAVING CONDUCTED ANY INVESTIGATION IN 1970
16 OR 71 DO YOU
17 HAD NO KNOWLEDGE OF THE MACDONALD CASE UNTIL WAS
18 HIRED AS PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR TO CHECK INTO IT
19 NOW LET ME ASK YOU WHO HIRED YOU AS PRIVATE
20 INVESTIGATOR
21 DOCTORS WIFE PHYLLIS HUGHES AND DR STEPHEN
22 SHEA
23 OKAY THATS DR MACDONALDS PARTNER ISNT IT
24 DR SHEA IS
25 INTERPOSING YEAH
Case 3:75-cr-00026-F Document 136-5 Filed 04/17/2006 Page 1 of 50
TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 102
ASSOCIATED WITH HIM IN SOME CAPACITY THAT DONT
KNOW
OKAY AND WHAT WERE THE TERMS OF THE ARRANGEMENT
THEY CONTACTED ME IN NOVEMBER 1979 AND ASKED ME IF
WOULD CHECK INTO IT AND AGREED AND WHEN
YOU SAY THE TERMS DO YOU MEAN WHAT WAS GOING TO
CHARGE HIM
YEAH WHAT WAS THE ARRANGEMENT
10TOLD HIM IT WAS HUNDRED DOLLARS 100 AN HOUR
11 OKAY AND WERE YOU PAID RETAINER
12WAS GIVEN FIFTEEN THOUSAND DOLLAR 15000
13RETAINER
14 OKAY AND WHOSE ACCOUNT IF YOU KNOW WAS THAT
15RETAINER DRAWN ON
16THE FIRST THREE CHECKS WERE FROM THREE INDIVIDUALS
17FIVE THOUSAND 5000 EACH
18 THEIR PERSONAL ACCOUNTS
19 PERSONAL ACCOUNTS YES
20 OKAY AND WHO WEZ THOSE THREE INDIVIDUALS
21JUST MINUTE ILL HAVE TO DO SOME ROSEARCH HERE
22 WITNESS REVIEWS DOCUMENTS THE FIRST CHECK WAS FROM
23 ADR PAUL CURRY CURRY DATED DECEMBER 24
24 1979 FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS 5000 DRAWN ON THE
25 BANK OF AMERICA HUNTINGTON HARBOR BRANCH HUNTINGTON
Case 3:75-cr-00026-F Document 136-5 Filed 04/17/2006 Page 2 of 50
TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 103
BEACH CALIFORNIA THE SECOND BANK CHECK WAS
DATED ITS OUT OF ORDER BY THE WAY DECEMBER
17TH 1979 FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS 5000 HUGHES
MEDICAL GROUP INCORPORATED LONG BEACH CALIFORNIA
EXCUSE ME WAS THAT HUGHES MEDICAL GROUP
INCORPORATED
HUGHES HUGHES HUGHES
YES DID YOU HAVE ANY INVESTIGATIVE JOB FOR HUGHES
10MEDICAL GROUP INCORPORATED
NO
12NO
13THIS WAS THE FIRST EVER HEARD OF THEM
14 OKAY
15AND THE THIRD CHECK FOR FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS
16 5000 IS SIGNED BY HIMSELF DR STEPHEN SHEA
17 SHEA BY THE WAY DATED DECEMBER 17 1979
18 AND WHAT ACCOUNT IS THAT DRAWN ON
19 BANK OF AMERICA
20 AND THE ACCOUNT NUMBER
211104100627
22 HIS PERSONAL ACCOUNT
23 HIS PERSONAL ACCOUNT
24 OKAY NOW LET ME ASK YOU AGAIN MR GUNDERSON OR
25 LET ME ASK YOU FOR THE FIRST TIME WHEN YOU TOOK ON
Case 3:75-cr-00026-F Document 136-5 Filed 04/17/2006 Page 3 of 50
TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 104
THIS ASSIGNMENT YOU HAD NO PREVIOUS EXPERIENCE WITH
THE CASE RIGHT
ABSOLUTELY NONE
OKAY AND THIS WAS AFTER MACDONALD HAD BEEN
CONVICTED IS THAT CORRECT
IT WAS
OKAY DID YOU READ THE TRIAL TRANSCRIPT
READ SOME OF THE TRIAL TRANSCRIPTS AFTER WAS
10HIRED
11BUT YOU DIDNT READ THE WHOLE TRANSCRIPT
12READ THAT PART THE PARTS OF THE TRIAL TRANSCRIPT
13READ WERE MR STONIBAUGHS TESTIMONY HELENA
14 STOECKLEYS TESTIMONY AND SOME OF THE OTHER
15 TESTIMONY OF INDIVIDUALS DONT RECALL EXACTLY RIGHT
16NOW WHO THEY WERE
17 BUT YOU DIDNT READ THE OTHER TESTIMONY
18DIDNT READ THE FULL NINE THOUSAND 9000 PAGES
19 OR WHATEVER IT IS NO
20 BELIEVE ITS SEVEN THOUSAND 7000
21WHATEVER IT IS DIDNT READ IT ALL NO
22 HOW ABOUT THE ARTICLE 32 TRANSCRIPT
23READ PORTIONS OF THAT DID NOT READ IT ALL
24 WHAT DID YOU READ
25 READ THE SUMMARY OF IT READ COLONEL ROCKS
Case 3:75-cr-00026-F Document 136-5 Filed 04/17/2006 Page 4 of 50
TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 105
DECISION ON IT AND THEN PORTIONS THROUGHOUT
DIDNT READ THE WHOLE THING AS SAID
YOU DIDNT READ THE VERBATIM TRANSCRIPT
DIDNT READ IT IN DETAKL NO
OKAY HOW ABOUT THE FBI JAB REPORTS DID YOU READ
THOSE
IDID
WHICH ONES
10 DONT RECALL OFFHAND
11 OKAY DID YOU LOOK AT THE CRIME SCENE PHOTOGRAPHS
12 DIDNT HAVE THE CRIME PHOTOGRAPHS AT THAT
13 TIME HAD SOME XEROX COPIES OF SOME OF THE CRIME
14 SCENE PHOTOGRAPHS WHICH HAVE WITH ME TODAY
15 OKAY BUT TAKE IT YO NEVER CAME TO THE
16 COURTHOUSE HERE AND LOOKED AT THE
17 INTERPOSING NO DIDNT THE TESTIMONY READ
18 CAME FROM MR BERNARD SEGAL IN SAN FRANCIUCO HE
19 SENT ME BOX CONTAINING EXTENSIVE INFORMATION ON THE
20 CAS AND ALSO READ HELENA STOECKICYS TESTIMONY
21 OKAY
22 AND THE INFORMATION IN THE COURT RECORDS CONCERNING
23 THE PERSONS TO WHOM HELENA IS WAS REPORTED TO
24 HAVE TOLD THAT SHE THOUGHT SHE WAS THERE
25 SO YOU READ LIKE THE STOECKLEY WITNESSES VOIR DIRE
Case 3:75-cr-00026-F Document 136-5 Filed 04/17/2006 Page 5 of 50
TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 106
AND TESTIMONY IN FRONT OF THE JURY
IN ADDITION TO WHAT IVE MENTIONED RIGHT
OKAY LET ME ASK YOU AG4N MR GUNDERSON DID
YOU DO AN ANALYSIS OF CONTEMPORARY NEWS ACCOUNTS OF
THE CASE
HAD SOME NEWSPAPER CLIPPINGS THEY WERE NOT ALL
INCLUSIVE READ WHAT WAS AVAILABLE TO ME THAT WAS
FURNISHED TO ME BY MR SEGAL AND BY THE MEDICAL GROUP
10 THE MEDICAL GROUP
11 MR GUNDERSON DID YOU DETERMINE WHAT INFORMA
12TION WAS IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN AT GIVEN TIME SAY
13 IN AUGUST 1970 OR IN AUGUST 1979
14 WHEN YOU SAY DID DETERMINE THAT
15 INTERPOSING YEAH
16 WHAT DO YOU MEAN
17 IN OTHER WORDS FOR EXAMPLE IN FEBRUARY OF 1970
18 THINK ITS FAIR TO SAY IT WAS IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN
19 THAT ROCKING HORSE WAS FOUND IN THE CRIME SCENE
20 BECAUSE PICTURE OF IT APPEARED IN THE PAPERS
21 DID DETERMINE THAT WH DO YOU MEAN
22 WELL IN OTHER WORDS DID YOU DETERMINE WHAT
HI 23 INFORMATION SOMEONE READING THE NEWSPAPERS AT GIVEN
24 TIME WOULD BE AWARE OF
25 NO NOT REALLY READ YOU KNOW THE ARTICLES AS
Case 3:75-cr-00026-F Document 136-5 Filed 04/17/2006 Page 6 of 50
TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 107
MANY AS WERE FURNISHED ME DIDNT MAKE
PARTICULAR NOTE OF EXACTLY WHEN THEY WERE PRINTED
BECAUSE NUMBER OF THE ARTICLES HAD BEEN PRINTED
PRIOR TO AND SUBSEQUENT TO THE TRIAL
FUNHHURAH OKAY DID YOU HAVE OCCASION TO REVIEW
VIDEO TAPE OR VIDEO TAPEE OF HYPNOTIC SESSION OF
DR MACDONALD BY DR WILLIAM KROGER
IDID
10 YOU DID DO YOU HAVE THOSE WITH YOU BY ANY CHANCE
NO SIR DONT
12DO YOU KNOW WHERE THEY ARE
13DONT HAVE ANY IDEA WHERE THEY ARE
14 OKAY BUT YOUVE SEEN THEM
IVE SEEN THEM
16 OKAY
SAW THEM DIDNT SEE THEM IN THE BEGINNING
18 SAW THEM WOULD SAY MORE THAN YEAR AFTER
19BECAME INVOLVED IN THE INVESTIGATION
20 OKAY MR GUNDERSON
21 INTERPOSING PROBA IN EARLY ID SAY 81
22 OKAY YOU RETIRED FROM TIE BUREAU IN MARCH OF 79
23 AGAIN
24 MARCH 30 1979
25 MARCH 30 1979 OKAY WHAT WAS YOUR NEXT
Case 3:75-cr-00026-F Document 136-5 Filed 04/17/2006 Page 7 of 50
TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL LOB
EMPLOYMENT
ATTORNEY GENERAL WILLIAM GRIFFIN BELL HIRED ME TO
COORDINATE SECURITY FOR THE PAN AMERICAN GAMES IN
SAN JUAN PUERTO RICO THE SUMMER OF 79UNHHUNH AND AFTER THAT
IN FACT RETIRED EARLY TO TAKE THAT JOB MR
BEN CIVILETTI ASKED ME IF ID RETIRE EARLY AFTER
THATL
10 INTERPOSING IM SORRY BEN CIVILETTI ASKED YOU
11TO RETIRE EARLY
12BEN CIVILETTI ASKED ME TO RETIRE EARLY KNOW MR
13CIVILETTI AFTER THAT OPENED PRIVATE
14 INVESTIGATING FIRM IN LOS ANGELES
15 OKAY HAVE YOU HAD ANY OJHER JOBS
16JOBS NO MEAN HAVE CLIENTS BUT IVE NEVER
17 HAD ANY OTHER EMPLOYMENT
18 WELL LET ME ASK YOU
19 INTERPOSING IM SORRY YOURE RIGHT DID HAVE
20 ONE THE LOS ANGELES OLYMPIC COMMITTEE HIRED ME AS
21 CONSULTANT FOR ABOUT YEAR PRIOR TO THE TIME WHEN
22 THEY HIRED FULLTIME SECURITY OFFICER IN CHARGE OF
23 THE OPERATION
24 WERE YOU EVER RETAINED IN ANY CAPACITY BY AN OUTFIT
25 CALLED SASS INTERNATIONAL SASS
Case 3:75-cr-00026-F Document 136-5 Filed 04/17/2006 Page 8 of 50
TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 109
WAS NO IT WAS NOT SASS IT WAS DEKIA
WOULD YOU SPELL THAT PLEASE FOR THE REPORTER
DEKLAAND WHAT CAPACITY WAS THAT MR GUNDERSON
WAS PRESIDENT OF THE COMPANY FOR THREE WEEKS
OKAY AND WHATS THE STATUS OF THAT COMPANY NOW
DONT KNOW WHAT T1 STATUS IS BECAUSE RESIGNED
IN ON SEPTEMBER 26TH 1982
10 OKAY WHY DID YOU RESIGN
11 BECAUSE HEARD THE INVES THE ORGANIZATION WAS
12 UNDER INVESTIGATION BY THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY IN
13 DALLAS AND LOS ANGELES
14 OKAY ANY OTHER ORGANIZATIONS INVESTIGATING THEM
15 SUBSEQUENT TO MY RESIGNATION HEARD THAT THE FBI
16 WAS INVESTIGATING THE ORGANIZATION
17 OKAY AND YOU RESIGNED BECAUSE YOU HEARD THIS
18 NO RESIGNED BECAUSE HEARD THEY WERE UNDER
19 INVESTIGATION BY THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY IN DALLAS AND
20 LOS ANGELES DIDNT KNOW THE FBI WAS INVESTIGATING
21 THEM AT THAT TIME
22 OKAY AND WHAT WAS THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY INVESTIGATIN
23 THEM FOR
24 IM NOT SURE BUT BELKEVE THEY HAD RECEIVED
25 COMPLAINT THAT SOMEBODY HAD GIVEN MR ALLEN BLAIR WHO
Case 3:75-cr-00026-F Document 136-5 Filed 04/17/2006 Page 9 of 50
TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 110
AND ALSO MR ROBERT BARRON WHO WAS PRESIDENT OF THE
COMPANY BEFORE WAS SOME EXPENSE MONEY IN
CONNECTION IN AN ATTEMPT BY THE COMPANY TO PUT
TOGETHER LOAN
HAT WERE YOUR DUTIE WITH THE COMPANY WHILE
OU WERE THERE
DUTIES VITH THE COMPANY FOR THAT THREEWE
PERIOD WERE TO PRIMARILY TO CHECK OUT ANY POTENTIAL
10BORROWERS ANY INDIVIDUALS WHO MAY BE UNDER
11CONSIDERATION FOR LOAN AND BASICALLY THAT WAS IT
12AND ALSO TO DEGREE REALLY VASNT INVOLVED
IN AN ADMINISTRATIVE CAPACITY BUT ASSUMED THAT IF13
14THE COMPANY HAD NOT BECOME INVOLVED IN THIS SITUATION
15PROBABLY WOULD HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN AN
16ADMINISTRATIVE CAPACITY
17WHO DID YOU CHECK OUT FOR THEM
18MR ONEILL YOUR HONOR IM GOING TO
19INTERPOSE AN OBJECTION TO THIS LINE OF QUESTIONING
20AS IT APPEARS NOT TO RELATE AT ALL TO THE SUBJECT OF
DIRECT21
22THE COURT WELL WOULD ASK COUNSEL FOR THE
23GOVERNMENT TO SHOW ME SOME RELEVANCY DONT
24DETECT IT RIGHT OFFHAND
25MR MURTAGH WELL YOUR HONOR IF UNDERSTAND
Case 3:75-cr-00026-F Document 136-5 Filed 04/17/2006 Page 10 of 50
TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL ILL
CORRECTLY MR GUNDERSONS STATUS AS FORMER FBI
AGENT IS VERY MUCH AT ISSUE HERE IN FACT COUNSEL
REFERRED TO MR GUNDERSON IM SURE IT WAS SLIP
OF THE TONGUE BUT SEVERAL TIMES REFERRED TO HIM
AS AGENT GUNDERSON AND DIDNT OBJECT AT THAT TIME
THE COURT WELL HE CORRECTED THAT
MR MURTAGH PARDON AIR
THE COURT HE CORRECTED THAT
10 MR MURTAGH INTERPOSING HE CORRECTED THAT
11 THE COURT AND CALLED HIM MR12 MR MURTAGH YES BUT IN ANY EVENT YOUR
13 HONOR THINK THAT MR GUNDERSONS EMPLOYMENT SINCE
14 HE LEFT THE FBI IS MATTER AT ISSUE AND ALSO THINK
15 IT GOES TO HIS COMPETENCY AS AN INVESTIGATOR WHICH
16 IS VERY MUCH THINK AT ISSUE IN THIS CASE
17 THE COURT WELL ILL LET YOU EXPLORE IT FROM
18 THAT STANDPOINT
19 MR MURTAGH THANK YOU
20 MR MURTAGH DO YOU WANT ME TO REPEAT THE QUESTION
21 MR GUNDERSON
22 PLEASE
23 WHO DID YOU CHECK OUT FOR THEM
24 WHO DID CHECK OUT FOR
25 INTERPOSING DEKLA
Case 3:75-cr-00026-F Document 136-5 Filed 04/17/2006 Page 11 of 50
TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 112
YOU MEAN THEIR NAMES SPECIFICALLY
YEAH
DONT HAVE THOSE NAMES WITH ME AND IF ID KNOWN
WOULD HAVE BEEN PREPARED TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION
DID YOU CHECK OUT MR B1A FOR ANYTHING
DID LATER ON AND REALIZED THAT YEAH DID
CHECK HIM OUT LATER ON BUT DIDNT CHECK HIM OUT AT
THE TIME
10DID YOU LATER DETERMINE TJ MR BLAIR HAD CRIMINAL
11RECORD
12FOUND OUT LATER SUBSEQUENT TO THE TIME THAT WAS
13INVOLVED WITH THE COMPANY
14 OKAY BUT YOUR INVESTIGATION DIDNT REVEAL IT
15NO IF MAY EXPLAIN THE SITUATION MR BLAIR AND
16MR BARRON WERE MY CLIENTS WHEN WAS IN LOS ANGELES
17 BEGINNING IN ABOUT FEBRUARY 1982 AND FROM
18 FEBRUARY 1982 UNTIL JULY 1982 HAD CHECKED OUT
19NUMBER OF INDIVIDUALS FOR THEM BY LONG DISTANCE
20 TELEPHONE CALL AT THEIR REQUEST BY LONG DISTANCE
21PHONE CALL AND IN AS OF AROUND JULY THE
22FIRST 1982 THEY OWED ME BILL OF APPROXIMATELY
23THREE THOUSAND DOLLARS 3000
24AND HAD ANOTHER CASE WHEREIN BUSINESSMAN
25CAME OUT OF HIS OFFICE ABOUT MIDNIGHT IN APRIL OF
Case 3:75-cr-00026-F Document 136-5 Filed 04/17/2006 Page 12 of 50
TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 113
1982 AND GUNMAN JUMPED OUT OF BUSH AND SHOT AT
HIM NINE TIMES HIT HIM FOUR OUT OF NINE AND HE WAS
TAKEN TO THE HOSPITAL LIVED THE BUSINESSMAN HIRED
ME TO FIND OUT WHO SHOT HIM
BEGAN MY INVESTIGATION AT THAT TIME AND
DEVELOPED INFORMATION THAT WAS VERY PERTINENT TO THAT
SITUATION AND CONTACTED THE BUSINESSMAN IN ID
SAY IN JUNE GAVE HIM THE INFORMATION SUBSEQUENT TO
10 THAT LEARNED THAT THERE WERE SOME PEOPLE LOOKING FOR
11 ME AND IN FACT TWO MEN WERE STANDING SITTING
12 ACROSS FROM MY APARTMENT IN MY HOME IN WESTWOOD
13 CALIFORNIA WAITING FOR ME TO COME HOME ONE MORNING
14 AT ONE FORTYFIVE 145 IN THE MORNING
15 NOW THE REASON THIS TIES INTO THIS BLAIR
16 SITUATION DEKLA SITUATION IS THATS WHY WENT TO
17 DALLAS BECAUSE DID LEARN THROUGH MY SOURCES AND
18 INFORMANTS THAT THERE WAS IN FACT CONTRACT ON MY
19 LIFE AND MR BLAIR CAME OVER TO MEET ME IN MY
20 OFFICE ONE SATURDAY DURING THAT MEETING HE MENTIONED
21 HE DIDNT MENTION DURL4IG THAT MEETING MENTIONED
22 IN OUR DISCUSSION THAT BAD PROBLEM HE OFFERED ME
OPPORTUNITY TOHI 23 4HE TO COME DALLAS WHICH DDW AND
24 HE OFFERED ME AN OFFICE AND TELEPHONE WHICH TOOK
25 AND ACCEPT AT THAT TIME DID NOT KNOW HE WAS
Case 3:75-cr-00026-F Document 136-5 Filed 04/17/2006 Page 13 of 50
TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 114
CONVICTED FELON
OCCUPIED THAT OFFICE FOR ONE MONTH SEVERAL
TIMES DURING THAT ONEMONTH PERIOD HE ASKED ME TO BE
PRESIDENT OF THE COMPANY DECLINED ON AUGUST THE
6TH THINK IT WAS HE ASKED ME TO BE PRESIDENT AND
ACCEPTED WAS NOT AWARE THAT THERE WAS
POTENTIAL PROBLEM WITH BLAIR OR DEKIA OR THE REST OF
THEM AT THAT TIME
10 OKAY MR GUNDERSON ACCPRDING TO YOUR DECLARATION
11 YOU INTERVIEWED HELENA STOECKLEY ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS
12 BETWEEN OCTOBER 24TH 1980 AND MAY 27TH 1982
13 CONCERNING HER KNOWLEDGE OF THE MACDONALD MURDERS
14 THAT RIGHT
15 OKAY SOW IF UNDERSTOPD CORRECTLY ON DIRECT YOU
16 SAID THAT THE FIRST INTERYIEW TOOK PLACE ON OCTOBER
17 24TH 1980 IS THAT RIGHT
18 OCTOBER 24TH 1980 RIGHTS FIRST SIGNED STATEMENT
19 OKAY WELL WHEN DID THE INTERVIEW THAT RESULTED IN
20 THAT SIGNED STATEMENT COMMENCE
21 THINK IT COMMENCED ON THE 23RD 22ND OR 23RD IM
22 NOT SURE
23 WELL
24 INTERPOSING WAS THERE ABOUT DAY AND HALF
25 BEFORE SHE CAME IN LATE ONE NIGHT DIDNT SPEND TOO
Case 3:75-cr-00026-F Document 136-5 Filed 04/17/2006 Page 14 of 50
TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 115
MUCH TIME IN THE OFFICETHAT WAS WHEN HAD MY
WESTWOOD OFFICE THE ADDRESS THAT GAVE YOU EARLIER
ANA THEN 5HE WENT WE CHECKED HER INTO MOTEL
SHE CAME BACK THE NEXT DAY AND IT WAS KIND OF
GETTING ACQUAINTED SESSION AND LATE THAT DAY WE
BEGAN TO REDUCE THE INFORMATION INTO WRITING
OKAY MR GUNDERSON LETS BACK UP SECOND WHEN
YOU SAY WE WHO WAS PRESENT
10 MR BEASLEY
11 OKAY
12 PRINCE
13 AND HOW DID HELENA STOECKLEY GET TO CALIFORNIA
14 MR BEASLEY BROUGHT HER TP CALIFORNIA
15 OKAY AND WHEN DID THEY ARRIVE
16 IM NOT SURE OF THE DATE ID HAVE TO GO AND CHECK
17 THESE DOCUMENTS DO YOU WANT ME TO CHECK THEM
18 WELL WOULD YOUR REPORT BE GOOD ENOUGH WOULD YOU
19 DISAGREE WITH ME IF SAID THAT YOUR REPORT SHOWS
20 4HAT SHE SHOWED UP ON OCTOBER 22ND 1980
21 THAT WOULD BE LATE THAT AFTERNOON EARLY EVENING
22 AND THEN THE 23RD AND THEN THE 24TH THATD BE ABOUT
23 ID SAY THAT PROBABLY REPORTSHOWS
24 THAT THEN ITS ACCURAT25 IS THERE ANYTHING IN YOUR REPORT THAT ISNT ACCURATE
Case 3:75-cr-00026-F Document 136-5 Filed 04/17/2006 Page 15 of 50
TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 116
WHEN YOU SAY ACCURATE WHETHER ITS ACCURATE
INTERPOSING TRUE CORRECT
THAT IS OR IS NOT TRUE OR CORRECT
THATS NOT TRUE OR CORRECT
THERE PROBABLY IS SOME INFORMATION THATS NOT TRUE
AND CORRECT BECAUSE DONT MAKE AN OPINION WHEN
OBTAIN INFORMATION FROM AN INDIVIDUAL MERELY
TAKING INFORMATION DOWN AND PUTTING IT ON PAPER
10 NO IM NOT TALKING ABOUT WHAT THE WITNESS SAYS
11 IM TALKING ABOUT INFORMATION THATS IN YOUR REPORT
12 THATS RESULT OF YOUR INVESTIGATION
13 NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE DO YOU MEAN INFORMATION
14 ATTRIBUTED TO ME AS FAR AS KNOW THERES NOTHING
15 THATS INACCURATE IN THERE ITS CERTAINLY POSSIBLE
16 THERE COULD BE AN INACCURACY SOMEPLACE YES
17 OKAY ALL RIGHT SO MR GUNDERSON OR MR
18 BEASLEY RATHER AND MS STOECKLEY ARRIVED ON THE
19 22ND WHAT WERE THE EVENTS THAT LED UP TO HER
20 COMING OUT TO CALIFORNIA
21 IM NOT REAL SURE ON THAT THINK AS RECALL
22 WELL KNOW WHAT PRINCE TOLD ME BUT ALL KNOW IS
23 WHAT PRINCE CALLED AND TOLD ME SO DONT HAVE THE
24 DETAILS ON THAT MR BEASLEY WAS THE ONE WHO ARRANGED
25 TO BRING HER OUT
Case 3:75-cr-00026-F Document 136-5 Filed 04/17/2006 Page 16 of 50
TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 117
HED BE THE WITNESS TO TESTIFY ABOUT THAT TAKE
IT
WELL HE TOLD ME WHAT HAPPENED BUT
INTERPOSING WELL THE ANSWER TO MY QUESTION OR
MY QUESTION IS WOULD HE BE THE WITNESS TO TESTIFY
WELL ASSUME HE WOULD BE HES THE ONE THAT TOLD
ME ABOUT IT
OKAY
10 HAD NO PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE OF HOW HE BROUGHT HER
11 OUT THERE
12 INTERPOSING ALL RIGHT
13 HOW HE CONVINCED HER SHE SHOULD COME OUT
14 OKAY WAS MR BEASLEY PRESENT DURING ALL OF YOUR
15 INTERVIEWS OF HELENA STOECKLEY
16 HE WAS
17 WOULD IT BE ACCURATE TO SAY THAT KR BEASLEY WAS
18 ESSENTIAL TO SECURING HELENA STOECKLEY COOPERATION
19 ID SAY ITS AN ACCURATE STATERENT
20 IS AN AC STATEMENT
21 ID SAY IT AN ACCURATE STATEMENTS
22 OKAY HES KIND OF THE KEY TO NELENA STOECKLEY OR
23 AT LEAST HE WAS WASNT HE
24 VOULD MY HEWIS YES VVE SAID THAT ALL ALONG
25 OKAY WELL THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN JUST AS TRUE BEFORE
Case 3:75-cr-00026-F Document 136-5 Filed 04/17/2006 Page 17 of 50
TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 118
THE TRIAL AS AFTER IT WOULDNT IT MR GUNDERSON
DONT KNOW WASNT AROUND BEFORE THE TRIAL
OKAY NOW IF UNDERSTOPD YOU CORRECTLY YOU SAID
THAT AFTER YOUR HAY 24TH 1982 SIGNED STATEMENT WHICH
BELIEVE IS THAT GOVERNMENTS DEFENDANTS
EXHIBIT NUMBER TEN 10 YOU HAVE THEM IN FRONT OF
YOU MR GUNDERSON
JUST MINUTE AND ILL LOOK AT THEM WITNESS
10 PERUSES DOCUMENTS THERES SEVERAL ON HAY THE 24TH
11 SEVERAL
12 SEVERAL THERES AN EXHIBIT TEN 10 ELEVEN 11
13 AND TWELVE 12 ON MAY THE 24TH WHICH ONE ARE YOU
14 REFERRING TO
15 WELL WHY DONT WE START WITH TEN 10 MR
16 GUNDERSON AND TALK ABOUT THAT WOULD YOU DESCRIBE
17 IT FOR US
18 THERE WERE THERE WERE SEVERAL STATEMENTS TAKEN
19 DURING THAT MAY SESSION THERE WAS ONE TAKEN ON THE
20 2OTH ALSO BY THE WAY WHICH THE GOVERNMENT IS NOT
21 AWARE OF
22 WHY IS THAT MR GUNDERSON
23 YOU WELL BECAUSE DIDNT TELL YOU ABOUT
24 FURNISHED ALL STATEMENTS UP THROUGH 1980
25 TO THE GOVERNMENT AND THEN WROTE LETTER
Case 3:75-cr-00026-F Document 136-5 Filed 04/17/2006 Page 18 of 50
TED GURIDERSON CROSS VOL 119
SUBSEQUENT TO THAT ASKING IMMUNITY FOR MS
STOECKLEY AND THERE WASA QUESTION ABOUT THE
GOVERNMENT WHETHER THE GOVERNMENT WAS SINCERE IN
PURSUING THE MATTER AND THEREFORE DID NOT FURNISH
ANY MORE INFORMATION TO YOU
WERE YOU ACTING AS HER ATTORNEY MR GUNDERSON
NO SIR THAT WAS ON ADVICE OF COUNSEL THAT DID
THAT BUT WE
10 INTERPOSING WHO WAS THE
11 CERTAINLY CONFERRED ABOUT IT
12 WHO WAS THE COUNSEL
13 IM NOT SURE IF THAT WAS MR ONEILL OR SEGAL
14 BUT CONFERRED WITH BOTH OF THEM ON FREQUENT
15 BASIS
16 SEE
17 WOULD YOU LIKE TO START WITH THE MAY 20TH OR WOULD
18 YOU LIKE TO PAUSE
19 WELL LET ME ASK YO THIS MR GUNDERSON IS IT
20 ACCURATE TO SAY THAT YOUR PRIOR INTERVIEWS WITH
21 HELENA STOECKLEY HAD TAKEN PLACE IN OCTOBER AND
22 DECEMBER OF 1980 RIGHT
23 RIGHT
24 THOSE ARE THE SOCALLED CONFESSIONS
25 WOULDNT SAY THEY WERE CONFESSION THEY WERE
Case 3:75-cr-00026-F Document 136-5 Filed 04/17/2006 Page 19 of 50
TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 120
STATEMENTS SAYING SHE WAS THERE AND SHE TOLD ME WHAT
OH SAW HE
INTERPOSING YOU DONT CONS
THAI UHE WAS PARTICIPATING IN THE ORIME
SO YOU WOULDNT THOSE CONFESSIONS TOCONSIDER
NELENA STOECKLEY
VER STATEMENTS BY HELENA STOECKLEY TO WHAT
HAPPENED
10 OKAY WOULD YOU CONSIDER THAT THOSE WERE STATEMENTS
11 AGAINST HER PENAL INTERESTS
12 MR ONEILL OBJECTION HES NOT LAWYER
13 THAT CALLS FOR LEGAL CONCLUSION
14 THE COURT ISNT THAT TO BE DETERMINED FROM
15 THE STATEMENT ITSELF AS MATTER OF LAW
16 MR MURTAGH YES YOUR HONOR
17 MR MURTAGH OKAY WEL ANYWAY MR GUNDERSON
18 THERE HAD BEEN TWOYEAR GAP RIGHT
19 THE LAST SERIES OF STATEMENTS WERE DECEMBER 80 AND
20 THEN MAY OF 82 WAS THE NEXT SERIES OF STATEMENTS
21 OKAY NOW WHAT PRECIPITATED THIS SUBSEQUENT
22 INTERVIEW IN MAY OF 8223 HELENA STOECKLEY CALLED EITHER PRINCE OR ME IM NOT
24 SURE AND SAID THAT SHE WANTED TO TALK TO US SHE
25 VOLUN SHE CAME TO US
Case 3:75-cr-00026-F Document 136-5 Filed 04/17/2006 Page 20 of 50
TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 121
NOW IUNT IT FACT MR GUNDERSON THAT IN THE
INTERIM HELENA STOECKLEY HAD BEEN INTERVIEWED BY THE
7BI AND RETRACTED BE RTATEMENTS TO YOG
LOG SHE DIDNT
OHG SHE DIDNT
NO SHE DIDNT
USE HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT
WELL BECAUSE SHE TOLD ME SHE DIDNT
10 OH HAVE YOU SEEN THE STATEMENT OF HELENA STOECKLEY
11 ATTACHED TO THE AFFIDAVIT OF SPECIAL AGENT MADDEN IN
12 THIS CASE
13 NO HAVE NOT
14 OKAY SO YOU DONT KNOW WHETHER THATS RETRAC
15 TION OR NOT
16 WELL SHE TOLD MESHE DIDNT RESCIND HER STATEMENTS
17 SHE GAVE US SHE TOLD ME THAT SHE WAS NOT IM
18 TRYING TO FIGURE OUT EXACTLY HOW SHE WORDED IT SHE
19 REALLY DIDNT SAY THAT SHE RETRACTED IT OR DIDNT
20 RETRACT IT
21 OKAY BUT YOU WENT TO INTERVIEW HER AGAIN
22 NODS AFFIRMATIVELY AND WHEN WE INTERVIEWED HER
23 AGAIN AUKED HER WHAT HAPPENED BECAUSE IN THE
24 UEANTIME HAD RECEIVED THIS LETTER WHICH VOLUN
25 TARILY GAVE TO THE HER INTERVIEW WITH THE FBI
Case 3:75-cr-00026-F Document 136-5 Filed 04/17/2006 Page 21 of 50
TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 122
ON DECEMBER THE 27TH 1981 IN WHICH HELENA WB
CRITICAL OF ME PERSONALLY
IS THAT DEFENSE EXHIBIT NYMBER FOURTEEN 14THATS NUMBER FOURTEEN 14 AIR
WOULD YOU READ THAT PLEASE
READING DOCUMENT NR ZZ ALL FAIRNESS
TOANY PERSON OR PERSONS INVOLVE4 IN THE INVESTIGATION
OF THE JEFFREY MACDONALD MURDER CASE IN 1970 AT FORT
10BRAGG NORTH CAROLINA FEEL THAT IT IS MY MORAL
11OBLIGATION TO INFORM YOU THAT MY HUSBAND AND ARE IN
THE PROCESS OF IMMEDIATE RE1OCATION IT IS MY12
13OPINION THAT IN THE PRECEDING MONTH HAVE BEEN USED
14PAWN FOR YOUR CONVENIENCE AND CANT READ
15THIS ITS COPY ALSO FEEL THAT IN DECEMBER OF
161980 WAS COERCED INTO SIGNING SOCALLED
17CONFESSION AND THAT WAS EXPLOITED BY MEANS OF
18FALSE HOPES AND EMPTY PROMISES
19NEVER HAVE SEEN BIGGER MOCKERY MADE OF
20 JUSTICE OR SUCH SHAMBLE MADE OF AN INVESTIGATION
21GRANTED HAVE PAST HISTORY OF DRUG ABUSE AND CULT
22INVOLVEMENT BUT IN MY OPINION DO POSSESS CLEAR AND
23SOUND MENTAL FACULTIES AND JUDGMENT AND MODERATE
24LEVEL OF INTELLIGENCE AFTER BEING CANT READ
25IT TIME AND TIME AGAIN DECEIVED TIME AND TIME
Case 3:75-cr-00026-F Document 136-5 Filed 04/17/2006 Page 22 of 50
TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 123
AGAIN AND AFTER FINDING THAT WHAT THOUGHT WAS
SHREWDNESS AND CAUTION ONMY PART WAS BEING TAKEN BY
EVERYONE AS GULLIBILITY NO LONGER FEEL OBLIGATED
TO AID ANYONE IN THE MATTER IN THE MATTER
PERIOD
HAVE PROCURED LAWYER WHO IS GATHERING DATA
ON THE CASE SO THAT SHOULD ANYONE COME UP WITH ANY
CANT READ IT IDEA THAT SHOULD BE
10 INCARCERATED WONT BE CAUGHT UNPREPARED AGAIN
11 ALSO IF WERE YOU WOULD BE MINDFUL OF THE FACT
12THAT AFFIRMATIVE OF CHARACTER OVER SUCH LONG PERIOD
13 OF TIME IS PRETTY SERIOUS CHARGE WHEN FINALLY
14 AGREED TO COOPERATE WITH YOU FELT WAS DOING WHAT
15 WAS MORALLY RIGHT WOULD ALSO BE FEELING MYSELF
16 FREEING MYSELF FROM PRIVATE HELL SO GAVE YOU AS
17 CONCLUSIVE REVIEW OF THE EVENT OF THE NIGHT IN
18 QUESTION ST COU1D YOU IN TURN MISCONSTRUED AND
19 DISTORTED ALL STATEMENTS MADE TO YOU TO BE USED
20 ME YOUR CONVENIENCE
BE21 NO LONGER WILL CAUSED ANY FURTHER
22 EMBARRASSMENT OR HAVE UNFAVORABLE IMPLICATIONS MADE
23 ABOUT ME DUE TO THIS CASEANY AND ALLFEARU
24 HNZIETIES THAT FAOW HAVE VIII DEAL WITH MYSELF
25 TONTRARY TO UTATEMEHTS MADE BYJIIDGE DUPREE AND
Case 3:75-cr-00026-F Document 136-5 Filed 04/17/2006 Page 23 of 50
TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 124
COUNTLESS OTHER PEOPLE MY LIFE IS NO LONGER ONE
BIG DRUGDAZED STUPOR THAT CANNOT FACE DO NOT
TRY TO CONTACT ME OR ANYONE RELATED TO ME IN THE
FUTURE AT THE CANT READ IT THE NEXT WORD
CANT READ IS MORE INMY FAVOR YOUR CONSIDERA
TION IN THE MATTER WOULD BE APPRECIATED PLEASE MAKE
MY STAND CLEAR TO MR BEASLEY AS WELL REITERATE
SHOULD THERE BE ANY FUTURE UNDUE STRESS PLACED UPON
10 ME SHALL NOT HESITATE TO TAKE LEGAL ACTION
11 SINCERELY MRS HELENA DAVIS
12 SO AFTER GETTING THAT LETTER YOU CONTACTED HER OR
13 SHE CONTACTED YOU
14 NO SHE CON SHE WROTE ME THE LETTER AND DIDNT
15 PAY ANY ATTENTION TO IT DIDNT EVEN CONTACT HER
16 NO
17 WELL HOW DID
18 INTERPOSING SHE CALLED ME
19 OKAY AND WHAT DID SHE
20 ININ MAY OF 1982 AND SAID SHE WANTED TO
21 JLTALK TO
22 AND YOU VENT DOWN AND TALK TO HER
23 THATSRIGHT
24 FROM CALIFORNIA TO
25 INTERPOSING THATS RIGHT
Case 3:75-cr-00026-F Document 136-5 Filed 04/17/2006 Page 24 of 50
TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 125
CLEMSON SOUTH CAROLINA
FLEW ON AN AIRPLANE
WITH MR BEASLEY
NO
WITHOUT MR
INTERPOSING MR BEASLEY WAS ALREADY THERE
WELL BUT YOU VENT TO CLEMSON SOUTH CAROLINA WITH
MR BEASLEY
10 FLEW TO FAYETTEVILLE AND WE DROVE TO CLEMSON
11 OKAY BUT YOU WERE WITH MR BEASLEY
12 INTERPOSING DURING THE INTERVIEW
13 WITH HER IN CLEMSON
14 RIGHT
15 FINE WAS THERE AN DISCUSSION OF HYPNOSIS TAN16 TIME DURING THIS SESSION
17 SUGGESTED TO HELENA THAT SHE BE HYPNOTIZED YES AT
18 ONE TIME THINK IT MIGHT HAVE IM NOT SURE
19 EXACTLY WHEN SUGGESTED THAT WHICH SESSION
20 WAS SHE BYPNOTIRFL
21 EV RUF WAIT MINUTE SHE WASIISHE
22 SUGGESTED THAT IN DECEMBER 1980 AND SHE REFUSED
23 IM PRETTY SURE IM NOT REAL POSITIVE IM PRETTY
24 SURE SHE SAID THAT SHED HAD SOME UNFORTUNATE
25 EXPERIENCES IN HYPNOSIS AND SHE DIDNT WANT TO BE
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TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 126
HYPNOTIZED
UNHHUNH OKAY NOW GETTING BACK TO OCTOBER OF
1980 MR GUNDERSON YOU PROBABLY HAVE DIFFERENT
NUZNBER FOR IT BUT WONDER IF THE HANDWRITTEN
STATEMENT OF 102480 HAYE YOU GOT THAT
SHOULD HAVE IT GAVE IT IT WAS ENTERED AS
AN EXHIBIT
MR MURTAGH YOUR HONOR WONDER IF IN THE
10 INTEREST OF MOVING THINGS ALONG HAVE COPIES THAT
11HAVE BEEN FURNISHED BY COUNSEL WITH MY OWN NUMBERING
12 SYSTEM OKAY
13 MR MURTAGH HAVE YOU GOT THAT MARKED AS AN EXHIBIT
14 ITS EXHIBIT FOUR
15THE ENVELOPE IS MARKED EXHIBIT FOUR ISNT IT
18 WELL THE ENVELOPE SAYS EXHIBIT FOUR
OKAY
18 TOOK IT OUT OF THAT ENVELOPE
19 ALL RIGHT SO THIS IS HANDWRITTEN STATEMENT
20 THE COURT INTERPOSING WAIT MINUTE WAIT
21 MINUTE NOW YOUD BETTER PUT EXHIBIT FOUR ON
22 THE STATEMENT ITSELF
23 MR MURTAGH THAT5 GOOD SUGGESTION YOUR
24 HONOR
25 STATEMENT MARKED BY CLERK
Case 3:75-cr-00026-F Document 136-5 Filed 04/17/2006 Page 26 of 50
TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 127
MR MURTAGH ANYWAY MR GUNDERSON DID
UNDERSTAND YOU TO SAY ON DIRECT THAT YOU WROTE OUT
THIS STATEMENT
IDID
OKAY AND DID YOU WRITE DOWN WHAT HELENA STOECKLEY
TOLD YOU
PRECISELY
PRECISELY
10 EXACTLY
11 EXACTLY OKAY
12 WELL LET ME EXPLAIN TO YOU HOW CONDUCTED THE
13 INTERVIEW
14 YES PLEASE DO
15 TALKED TO HELENA LIKE IM TALKING TO YOU AND
16 WOULD SAY TELL ME WHAT THE SITUATION IS SHE WOULD
17 TELL ME AND THEN WOULD AS WOULD WRITE WOULD
18 SPEAK OUT LOUD AND SHE WOULD APPROVE WHICH THIS IS
19 TECHNIQUE IVE USED FOR TWENTYSEVEN 27 YEARS IN
20 THE FBI BY THE WAY
21AY 4O AYTHIR DIFFERENT IN THIS
22 INTERVIEW THAN YOU WOUL DONE IN ANY OTHER 731
NTERVIEW23
24NEVER
25 IM OTRI7
Case 3:75-cr-00026-F Document 136-5 Filed 04/17/2006 Page 27 of 50
TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 128
NEVER NEVER
IN THIS INTERVIEW
3N ALL THE INTERVIEWS THEY WERE ALL CONDUCT THE
SAME WAY THAT OONDUCTED MY FBI INTERVIEWS
DID YOU KEEP AN INTERVIEW LOG
NO DID NOT
DID YOU DO THAT WHEN YOU WERE IN THE FBI
NO NOT ALWAYS
10 YOU DIDNT
II NO
12 WERENT YOU REQUIRED TO DO SO
13 NOT NECESSARILY
14 ISNT STANDARD FBI PRACTKCE TO KEEP AN INTERVIEW LOG
15IT WAS AT THE END OF MY BUT NOT BEFORE THAT
16 AND SINCE IM NO LONGER AN OFFICER DIDNT FEEL
17 IT WAS NECESSARY TO KEEP AN INTERVIEW LOG
18 OKAY SO WE DONT REALLY KNOW WHAT TIME THIS
19 INTERVIEW STARTED AND WHAT TIME IT STOPPED
20 NO21 AND DONT IMAGINE YOU RECALL THAT OR DO YOU
22 NOT SURE THII THAT INTERVIEW MAY HAV BEEN
23 OIL THE LATE THE 23RD MD VENT INTO THE 24T AJ4
24 OF THE 24TH IS THAT THE FIRST INTERVIEW
25 DONT
Case 3:75-cr-00026-F Document 136-5 Filed 04/17/2006 Page 28 of 50
TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 129
THINK THATS THE FIRST INTERVIEW AND WE HANDLED
HE ONE INTERVIEW AND WEZ INTO TKIE NIGHT
LELIBERATELY BECAU DIDNT WANT TO MEND HER BORNE
IWASA MAYBE THAT YOU NEVER KNOW SOMETHING
ULIGHT BAPPEN SHE SIGHT GET DTBY GOING ACROSS
TEE STREET SO WANTED TO BE SURE TO GET THE
TATEMNT DOWN
WASNT MR BEASLEY WITH HER
10 YES HE WAS
11 WOULDNT HE HAVE PREVENTER HER FROM
12 INTERPOSING BE MIGHT HAVE BEEN HIT BY CAR TOO
13 WELL SUPPOSE THATS POSSIBLE
14 DIDNT WANT TO LET HER LEAVE THE OFFICE WITHOUT
15 AT LEAST HAVING ONE STATEMENT IN HAND LETS PUT IT
16 THAT WAY
17 YES CAN UNDERSTAND THAT MR GUNDERSON
18 NOW WHEN YOU STARTED THIS INTERVIEW WHAT DID
19 YOU TELL HELENA STOECKLEY WITH RESPECT TO ANY
20 EVIDENCE THRTYOU MIGHT HAVE DEVELOPEDIN YOUR
21 RINVESTIGATION
22 DIDNT TELL HER ANYTHIN9 ABOUT ANY EVIDENCE THAT WE
23 EDEVELO IN TH INVESTIGATION7
24 OKAY MD YOU HAD CONDUCTED AN EXTENSIVE INVESTIGATION
25 BEFORE YOU INTERVIEWED HER
Case 3:75-cr-00026-F Document 136-5 Filed 04/17/2006 Page 29 of 50
TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 130
THATS RIGHT
IN FACT STOECKLEYS INTERVIEW WAS REALLY SORT OF THE
CAPSTONE IN YOUR INVESTIGATION WASNT IT SORT
OF THE END OF IT
NO COULDNT POSSIBLY SAY THAT NO
GOVERNMENT EXHIBITS 10 12
MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION
10
11 MR MURTAGH WELL LET ME ASK YOU MR GUNDERSON
12 LET ME SHOW YOU WHATS BEEN MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION
13 AS GOVERNMENTS THINK ITS NINE TEN 1014 ELEVEN 11 AND TWELVE 12 WHICH ARE FOUR VOLUMES
15 BEARING THE STICKER TED GUNDERSON AND ASSOCIATES
16 INC INVESTIGATIVE REPORT USA VERSUS DR
17 MACDONALD AND LET ME SHOW THESE TO YOU
18 COUNSEL HANDS DOCUMENTS TO WITNESS WHO PERUSES
19 SAME VOLUME ONE RIGHT
20 ITS BEEN TORN OPEN
21 WELL WHY DONT YOU TAKE LOOK AT IT MR GUNDERSON
22 IF THERES ANYTHING IN THERE THAT YOU THINK DOESNT
23 BELONG OR ANYTHING THATS BEEN REMOVED WHY DONT
24 YOU TELL US ABOUT IT
25 THATS IMPOSSIBLE ITS ALMOST FOUR HUNDRED 400
Case 3:75-cr-00026-F Document 136-5 Filed 04/17/2006 Page 30 of 50
TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 131
PAGES LONG HAVENT GOT TIME TO SIT AND READ
THIS
DOES IT APPEAR TO BE YOUR REPORT SIR
IT DOES ON THE OUTSIDE APD IM SURE UNLESS
SOMETHINGS BEEN TAKEN OUT OF IT IT IS MY REPORT
OKAY
HOPEFULLY INTACT
ALL RIGHT AND
10 INTERPOSING ID HAVE TO SPEND SOME TIME TO SAY
11 FOR SURE BUT IT PROBABLY IS
12 OKAY WELL WHILE YOUVE GOT THAT IN YOUR HAND
13 MR GUNDERSON LET ME ASK YOU TO TAKE LOOK AT
14 PAGE ONE NINETYSIX 196A
15 OKAY
16 AND IS THERE HIGHLIGHTE PORTION OF THAT
17 THERE IS
18 OKAY AND WOULD YOU TELL US WHAT THAT SAYS PLEASE
19 DO YOU WANT ME TO READ IT TO YOU
20 SURE
21 INFORMATION CAME FROM MR FRED BOAT
22 ZTTEVIEWED HIM ON JANUARY 31 1980 AND WHAT MR
23 BOSTTDID ME THAT MAZEROLLE WAS NOT IN CUSTODY AT
24 TIE THE MURDERS THAT CBA BONDING COMPANY
25 HAD BONDED HIM FOR TWO THOUSAND DOLLARS 200000
Case 3:75-cr-00026-F Document 136-5 Filed 04/17/2006 Page 31 of 50
TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 132
WARRANT WAS ISSUED FOR HIS APPREHENSION ON MARCH
25 97O AFTER HE FAILED TO APPEAR BR IT WAS
4ATO SUUTODYAN APRLLPAJ9
OR RL UNSPECIFIED OF AI4F1 COBB COUNTY ANDVA FT1D4 HERE
MARIETTA GEORGIA
OKAY SO ASK YOU HR CIUNDORSONIU TRUE
STATEMENT
10 HAVE NO IDEA IF ITS TRUE OR NOT
11 SO YOU DONT KNOW WHETHE MR Z4AZEROLLE WAS IN JAIL
12 ON THE NIGHT OF THE MURDERS OR OUT ON BAIL
13 THATS RIGHT
14 OKAY DID YOU CHECK THE COURT RECORDS
15 NO DID NOT
16 WAS IT YOUR PRACTICE WHEN YOU WERE IN THE FBI TO
17 RELY ON NEWSPAPER REPORTERS FOR DETAILS ABOUT COURT
15 RECORDS
19 VERY HONESTLY FELT THAT HE WAS PROBABLY OUT
20 OF 4AIL AT THE TIME BUTI DID NOT BOTHER TO CHECK
21 COURT ZECORDS
22 WELL YOU ASK MR DEAULEYABOUT WHETHER MR23 MAZEROLLE WAS OUT OF JAIL BN THE NIGHT OF FEBRUARY
24 16TH
25 IT WAS MY IT WAS MY IMPRESSION THAT HE WAS OUT OF
Case 3:75-cr-00026-F Document 136-5 Filed 04/17/2006 Page 32 of 50
TED GUNDERBON CROSS VOL 133
JAIL BASED ON THE INFORMATION DEVELOPED DURING THE
INVESTIGATION AND WASNT SURE ABOUT WHETHER MR
BEASLEY TOLD ME THAT OR NOT
ISNT IT AFACT THATTHERES TAPE RECORDED
4NTERVIEW OF MR BEASLEY IN WHICH MR BEASLEY TELLS
YOU THAT MAZEROLLE WAS OUT OF JAIL THAT NIGHT
BELIEVE HE SAID THAT HE WAS OUT OF JAIL UNHHUNH
IN FACT DIDNT MR BEASLEY TELL YOU THAT HE HAD
10SEEN MR MAZEROLLE
HE DID THATS TRUE
12OKAY AND DO YOU KNOW WHETHER THATS TRUE STATEMENT
13OR NOT
14MR OTEILL YOUR HONOR ONE MOMENT MAY WE
15HAVE FOUNDATION AS TO WHERE AND WHEN THE TAPE
16RECORDED STATEMENT OCCURRED
17MR MURTAGH ITS IN MRGUNDERSONS REPORT
18MR ONEILL BUT YOU JUST
19MR MURTAGH ALL RIGHT MR GUNDERSON DID YOU
20CONDUCT AN INTERVIEW WITH MR BEASLEY
21IDID
22AND WAS IT TAPE RECORDED
23NO THINK IT WAS TYPED OUT IM NOT SURE
24ISNT IT LENGTHY TRANSCRIPT
25 DO YOU KNOW WHERE IT IS WHERE ITS LOCATED MY
Case 3:75-cr-00026-F Document 136-5 Filed 04/17/2006 Page 33 of 50
TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 134
REPORT IS THIRTEEN HUNDRED 1300 PAGES LONG
YEAH LET ME RATHER THA RUITIBLE THROUGH IT
INTERPOSING THATS THE INVESTIGATION AT THE END
OF THE YEAR 1980 BY THE WAY
WBKAY XU REFERRIAQ THINK IT WOULD BE PAGE
TWO TWENTYTHREE 223 OF VOLUME IF INTERVIEW WITH
BEASLEY ON 2180 AND IF YOU WOULD LOOK AT
PAGES TWO FIFTY 250 TWO FIFTYONE 251
10 INTERPOSING IT IS RECORDED INTERVIEW YOURE
11RIGHT
12 RIGHT
13 OKAY BECAUSE ITS IN QUPTES AND ITS QUESTION AND
14ANSWER
15 OKAY AND ISNT IT FAC THAT MR BEASLEY TOLD YOU
16THAT MAZEROLLE WAS OUT OF JAIL
17WHAT PAGE IS THAT ON DO YOU KNOW
18 LOOK AT PAGE TWO FORTYSPVEN 247 MR GUNDERSON
19TOWARDS THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE QUESTION
20 WHICH PRESUME STANDS IOR GUNDERSON HE WAS
21RELEASED ON BOND WHICH MEANT HE WAS OUT JAIL DURINQ
22
23 SEE IT HERE
24PFLW FOR BEAS UHE VAN OUT
25 JAIL YEU MIGHT ADD TOO IT WAS THREE WEEKS
Case 3:75-cr-00026-F Document 136-5 Filed 04/17/2006 Page 34 of 50
TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 135
BEFORE THE MURDERS IS THAT CORRECT
THATS WHAT HE SAYS HERE
WELL DO YOU KNOW WELLS LET ME ASK YOU DID YOU
ATTEMPT TO VERIFY WHETHER IN FACT MR MAZEROLLE
WAS IN JAIL ON THE NIGHT OF THE MURDERS OR WHETHER
HE WAS OUT ON BAIL
LLDIDNOTATTENIPTTODOSO
OKAY ISNT IT FACT THAT HELENA STOECKLEY
10 IDENTIFIED ALLEN MAZEROLLE TO YOU ON SEVERAL
11OCCASIONS AS BEING PRESENT AT THE CRIME SCENE
12 SHE DID
13 AND IN FACT INFLICTING INJURIES ON DR MACDONALD
14 WITH AN ICE PICK ISNT THAT CORRECT
15 ID HAVE TO LOOK AT THE REPORT TO MAKE SURE ITS AN
16 ACCURATE STATEMENT
17 WELL LET ME GET BACK TO YOUR REPORT MR GUNDERSON
18 IS GOVERNMENT EXHIBIT TEN 10 FOR IDENTIFICATION
19 VOLUME TWO II OF YOUR REPORT COUNSEL HANDS
20 SAME TO WITNESS WHO PERUSES SAME
21 WHAT PAGE DO YOU WANT ME TO LOOK AT
22 JUST WANT YOU TO LOOK IT AND SEE IF THATS
23 YOUR REPORT
24 OH THIS LOOKS ACCURATE
25 OKAY HOW ABOUT GOVERNMENTS ELEVEN 11 FOR
Case 3:75-cr-00026-F Document 136-5 Filed 04/17/2006 Page 35 of 50
TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 136
IDENTIFICATION COUNSEL HANDS SAME TO WITNESS WHO
PERUSES SAME
IT LOOKS ACCURATE
AND GOVERNMENTS TWELVE 12 FOR IDENTIFICATION
COUNSEL HANDS SAME TO WITNESS WHO PERUSES SAME
THE COURT SUPPOSE WE TAKE OUR LUNCH RECESS
AT THIS TIME AND GIVE MR GUNDERSON CHANCE TO LOOK
AT THOSE THINGS AND BE READY TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION
WHEN WE COME BACK AT TWO OCLOCK
11
12 LUNCH RECESS 100 20013
14 THE COURT GOOD AFTERNOON ALL DID YOU HAVE
15 FURTHER QUESTIONS OF THIS WITNESS
16 MR MURTAGH YES YOUR HONOR DID
17 THE COURT LET HIM COME BACK THEN
18 TED GUNDERSON RECALLED TO WITNESS STAND
19 MR MURTAGH MR GUNDERSON DID YOU TALK TO ANYBODY
20 OVER THE LUNCHEON RECESS
21 IDID
22 WHO DID YOU TALK TO SIR
23 MR ONEILL
24 COUNSEL FOR DR MACDONALD
25 BEG YOUR PARDON SIR
Case 3:75-cr-00026-F Document 136-5 Filed 04/17/2006 Page 36 of 50
TEC GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 137
COUNSEL FOR DR MACDONALD
YES RIGHT
DID YOU TALK TO HIM ABOUT THE SUBJECT OF YOUR
TESTIMONY
IDID
WERENT YOU ON THE WITNESS STAND
IWAS
HOW LONG WERE YOU AN FBI GENT SIR
10 TWENTYSEVEN 27 YEARS
11AND DID YOU NORMALLY TALK TO COUNSEL DURING RECESSES
12INTERPOSING WELL WOUKD YOU
13WHEN YOU WERE ON THE WITNESS STAND
14LIKE TO KNOW WHAT SAID TO HIM
15YEAH TELL ME WHAT YOU SAID TO HIM
16ALL RIGHT MENTIONED THAT WAS NOT ALLOWED
17TO GIVE COMPLETE ANSWER IN TWO INSTANCES THOSE
18 BEING THE RECORD CHECK ON MAZEROLLE AND ALSO MY
19INVOLVEMENT SUBSEQUENT TO MY RETIREMENT MEAN
20 EXCUSE ME SUBSEQUENT TO MY RESIGNATION FROM DEKLA
21IN DALLAS TEXAS
22 THE COURT WOULD YOU LIKE TO COMPLETE THOSE
23 ANSWERS NOW
24THE WITNESS WOULD SIR
25 THE COURT GO RIGHT AHEAD
Case 3:75-cr-00026-F Document 136-5 Filed 04/17/2006 Page 37 of 50
TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 138
OKAY MR MAZEROLLE HAD NOT COMPLETED THE
INVESTIGATION IVE NEVER PROFESSED TO HAVE
COMPLETED THE INVESTIGATION OF THE MACDONALD CASE
THERE WAS LOT OF WORK THAT HAD TO BE DONE THAT
RECOMMENDED DID NOT HANDLE LOT OF THIS
MOST OF THIS WORK IN FACT THE REMAINING WORK
BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT WE RAN OUT OF FUNDS AND
ALSO DIDNT FLY THREE THOUSAND 3000 MILES FROM
10 LOS ANGELES TO CHECK RECORDS AND IM NOT SO SURE
11 WHETHER OR NOT HE WAS IN JAIL IN THE FIRST PLACE
12 THERES POSSIBILITY HE WAS POSSIBILITY HE
13 WASNT IN JAIL THAT REMAINS TO BE SEEN
14 AND AS FAR AS DEKIA IS CONCERNED RESIGNED
15 FROM THE PRESIDENCY WHEN LEARNED THAT THE DISTRICT
16 ATTORNEY IN LA AND DALLAS WERE INVESTIGATING MR
17 BLAIR IN DEKLA IMMEDIATELY WENT TO BOTH
18 AGENCIES WAS INTERVIEWED BY THEM FOR OVER THREE
19 HOURS ON TAPE TOLD THEM EVERYTHING KNEW
20 ABOUT THE ORGANIZATIONS
21 THEY OF COURSE KNEW WAS AN EXLAW
22 ENFORCEMENT OFF ICER ALSO WENT TO THE FBI WHEN
23 HEARD THE FBI WAS INVESTIGATING DEKLA AND MR
24 BLAIR AND ME
25 MR MURTAGH IM SORRY SIR
Case 3:75-cr-00026-F Document 136-5 Filed 04/17/2006 Page 38 of 50
TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 139
SAY ALSO WENT TO THE FBI WHEN LEARNED THAT THE
FBI WAS INVESTIGATING BLAIR DEKIA AND ME
INTERPOSING ANDYES AND TOLD THEM THAT WANTED TO TALK TO THEM
THEY REFUSED TO ALLOW ME TO BE INTERVIEWED TOLD
THEM INSISTED ASKED THE AGENT IN CHARGE
MR KELLY TO CALL WASHINGTQN DC AND TELL THEM
WANTED TO BE INTERVIEWED HE SAID THAT WAS UNDER
10 INVESTIGATION PERSONALLY AND WAS SUSPECT AND THE
11 INVESTIGATION WAS NOT AT STAGE WHERE THEY WOULD
12ALLOW THEMSELVES TO TALK TO ME
13INSISTED ON THE INTERVIEW ON FRIDAY
14 AFTERNOON LATE MONDAY MORNING WENT IN AND WAS
15INTERVIEWED BY THE FBI AND AFTER APPROXIMATELY
16 THIRTYFIVE OR FORTY MINUTES WALKED OUT OF THE
17 INTERVIEW BECAUSE THEY REFUSED TO GIVE ME CONFIDEN
18 TIALITY WHICH BOTH THE DA IN DALLAS AND LOS ANGELES
19 DID GIVE ME
20 ASKED MR KELLY SUBSEQUENT TO THAT WHY HED
21REFUSED TO GIVE ME CONFIDENTIA LJIY HE SAID BECAUSE
22 WASNT SAID BECAUSE AFTER ALL YOU DO GIVE
23 INFORMANTS CONFIDENTIALITY WHY DIDNT YOU GIVE IT TO
24 ME NOT AN INFORMANT WE
25 MBATYARSE T1 TREATMENT RECEIVED FROM MY OLD
Case 3:75-cr-00026-F Document 136-5 Filed 04/17/2006 Page 39 of 50
TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 140
AGENCY
WELL LET ME ASK YOU
INTERPOSING AND WENT IN FOR THE PURPOSE OF
COOPERATING WITH THEM AND HELPING THEM ANY WAY
COULD
ARE YOU FINISHED YOUR ANSWER MR GUNDERSON
IM FINISHED
OKAY THANK YOU GETTIN9 BACK TO MR MAZEROLLE
10 DO YOU RECALL TALKING TO REPORTER BY THE NAME OF
II ROGER MERCER FOR THE FAYETTEVILLE TIMES ON
12 APPROXIMATELY THE 24TH OF FEBRUARY 1983
13 RECALL RECALL SUCH AN INTERVIEW
14 OKAY AND
15 THE COURT INTERPOSING WHAT YEAR
16 MR MURTAGH 1983 SIR
17 THE COURT 831RACR DO RECALL18 ANDMR MTH YOU THAT PRIOR TO YOUR
19 INTERVIEW BY MR MERCER THERE HAD BEEN STORY IN THE
20 FAYETTEVILLE PAPERS ABOUT THE MAZEROLLE JAIL RECORDS
21 AND WHATNOT DO YOU RECALL THAT
22 DONT RECALL READING IT BUT RECALL IT YES
23 OKAY AND LET ME ASK YOU SIR DIDYOU MR
24 THAT DONT CARE WHAT THE SUPERIOR XECS25 SHOW THERE AND THEN NOT QUOTE
Case 3:75-cr-00026-F Document 136-5 Filed 04/17/2006 Page 40 of 50
TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 141
APPARENTLY BASED ON THE INTERVIEW WITH YOU FORMER
FBI AGENT SAID HE HAD TWO WITNESSES WHO WOU14 SAY
AZEROLLE WAS NOT IN JAIL AT THE TIME OF THE KILLINGS
WANE BE DECLINED TO IDENTIFY THE WITNESSES HE SAID
BECAUSE THEY THEY THE FBI WILL ATTEMPT TO DIS
CREDIT THEM IF THEY KNOW THEIR IDENTITIES
DID YOU MAKE THAT STATEMENT SIR
MAY HAVE DONT RECAL EXACTLY
10 WELL
11 INTERPOSING PROBABLY DID
12 PARDON ME SIR
13 PROBABLY DID DONT RECALL EXACTLY WHAT TOLD
14 HIM
15 DO YOU HAVE TWO WITNESSES WHO CAN POSITIVELY SAY THAT
16 MR MAZEROLLE WAS NOT IN JAIL AT THE TIME OF THE
17 KILLINGS
18 WAS TOLD IN TWO INSTANCES THAT HE WAS NOT IN JAIL
19 ONE OF THEM WHICH YOU BROUGHT OUT TODAY
20 LFOULD THAT BE ML AIEIY21 HR BEASLEY RIGHT
22 HES THE FIRST ISII OKAY23 RIGHT AND WAS TOLD ALSO BY MR FRED BOAT THAT HE
24 VAS NOT
25 OKAY
Case 3:75-cr-00026-F Document 136-5 Filed 04/17/2006 Page 41 of 50
TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 142
MR BOST HAD CHECKED THOSE RECORDS THINK IN 1980
AND DID NOT SEE THE RECORDS THE DOCUMENT THAT WAS
IN THERE THAT PLACED MAZEROLLE IN JAIL OR AT LEAST
HE TOLD ME THAT
WELL MR GUNDERAON DO YOU MVE ANY BASIS BASED ON
OUR OWN PERSONAL INVEST3 TO DISPUTE THE
RECORD THAT SHOW MAZEROLLE WAS IN JAIL
HAVE NO PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE HAVE NO PERSONAL
10 KNOWLEDGE ONE WAY OR THE OTHER ABOUT THE RECORDS
11 DIDNT CHECK THE RECORDS MYSELF BUT THEY ARE PUBLIC
12 RECORDS AND IT WOULD BE YERY EASY TO INSERT SOME
13 DOCUMENTS IN THOSE RECORDS
14 DO YOU HAVE ANY EVIDENCE
15 INTERPOSING NO DONT
16 OF THAT MR GUNDERSON
17 HAVE ANY EVIDENCE OF ITS MERELY POSSIBIL
18 ITY IM NOT SAYING THAT IT HAPPENED
19 OKAY WELL LET ME MOVE ALONG BIT MR GUNDERSON
20 WITH RESPECT TO THE DEFENSE COMPOSITE EXHIBITS
21 DO YOU HAVE THOSE CLERK HANDS SAME TO COUNSEL
22 LET ME SHOW YOU WHAT WAS INTRODUCED AT THE
23 TRIAL BY THE DEFENDANTDEFENDANTS EIGHTYNINE 8924 DRAWING OF IM WEARING HATI DEFENDANTS
25 EXHIBIT NINETY 90
Case 3:75-cr-00026-F Document 136-5 Filed 04/17/2006 Page 42 of 50
TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 143
INTERPOSING HAY LOOK AT THESE
SURE FELLOW WITH CRUCIFIX AROUND HIS NECK
AND DFENDANT NINETYON 191 BLACK INDIVIDUAL
YITH ZIPPERED JACKETI AND DEFENDANTS NINETYTWO
WHICH APPEARS TO BE PICTURE OF VHITE INDIVIDUAL
WITH SOME SORT OF SKIN PROBLEM AND VEARINQ IT
LOOKS LIKE HOODED SWEATSHIRT WITH ZIPPER
COUNSEL HANDS SAME TO WITNESS WHO PERUSES SAME
10DID YOU EVER SEE THOSE BEFORE MR GUNDERSON
NOT THESE BUT IVE SEEN COPIES OF THESE
12OKAY WITH RESPECT TO YO REPORT SPECIFICALLY
13GOVERNMENTS TWELVE 12 FOR IDENTIFICATION WHICH
14WOULD BE VOLUME FOUR IV DO YOU HAVE COPY OF
15THAT
16 NO DONT HAVE IT
17 WELL LET ME GIVE IT TO YOU
18 DO HAVE COPY IM SORRY DO HAVE IT DID
19 BRING VOLUMES THREE AND FOUR WITH ME ALL RIGHT
20 AND SIR LET ME ASK YOU TO LOOK AT THE PAGE
21 EIGHT AND THEN THE FOLLOWING PAGES UP THROUGH
EIGHTEEN 1822 SIXTEEN 16 EIGHTEEN 18SI 23 EIGHT THROUGH EIGHTEEN 18
24 YEAH MR GUNDERSON MY PURPOSE IS YOU REFER DO
25 YOU NOT TO THESE COMPOSITE DRAWINGS BY DIFFERENT
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TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 144
NUMBERS AND THOSE ARE THE NUMBERS USED IN THE
VARIOUS STOECKLEY STATEMENTA ARENT THEY
RIGHT
OKAY LET SEE IF WE CAN AGREE ON WHAT THOSE
NUMBERS ARE OKAY
SURE
PAGE NINE AND PAGE TEN 10 YOU REFER TO AS
COMPOSITE THIRTYNINE F3 THE WOMAN
10 INTERPOSING OKAY
11 WHICH CORRESPONDS TO EIGHTYNINE12 DOES IT NOT
13 OKAY RIGHT
14 ITS BASICALLY REPRODUCTION OF THE SAME
INTERPOSING RIGHT
16 OKAY AND THEN WITH RESPPCT TO SUBJECT SUSPECT
17 NUMBER TWO COMPOSITE FORTYTHREE 43 IS THE BLACK
18 MALE19 INTERPOSING RIGHT
20 DEFENDANT NINETYONE CORRECT
21 RIGHT
22 AND WITH RESPECT TO COMPOSITE FORTYFOUR IN YOUR
23 REPORT THAT CORRESPONDS DOES IT NOT TO
24 WITNESS HOLDS UP COMPOSITE
25 YES MR NINETYTWO 92 OKAY DEFENDANTS
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TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 145
NINETYTWO 92 AND THEN COMPOSITE FORTYSIX 46
YOURE HANDING ME DEFENDANTS EXHIBIT NINETY 90EIGHT
OKAY NOW WITH RESPECT TO THE 24TH OF OCTOBER
1980
INTERPOSING OKAY
BELIEVE YOU IDENTIFIED EARLIER DEFENDANTS
EXHIBIT NWNBER FOUR IS THAT CORRECT THE
10 HANDWRITTEN STATEMENT
WELL WHATEVER THE EXHIBIT IS THERE WERE TWO
12STATEMENTS ON OCTOBER 24TH
13 YEAH ONE IS HANDWRITTEN AND ONE IS TYPEWRITTEN
14 RIGHT ONES FOURTEEN 14 AND ONES FIFTEEN 15
15 PAGES LONG
16 OKAY WITH RESPECT TO DEFENDANTS FOUR THE
17 HANDWRITTEN STATEMENT LET ME ASK YOU IS THAT THE
18 ONE YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT EARLIER
19IN REGARD TO WHAT SIR
20 WELL DID YOU IDENTIFY THAT AS STATEMENT THAT IN
21 EFFECT HELENA STOECKLEY DICTATED TO YOU AND YOU
22 WROTE IT OUT AND SHE SIGNED IT
23 RIGHT BASICALLY
24 ALL RIGHT AND WHAT NAME DID SHE USE TO SIGN IT
25 HELENA STOECKLEY AND HELENA DAVIS EXCUSE ME IM
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TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 146
SORRY HELENA FOSTER AKA HELENA STOECKLEY HELENA
DAVIS
1111 WHO WAS HELENA FOSTER
IT WAS AN ALIAS THAT SHE JASED
OKAY IS THERE ANY PARTKCULAR REASON WHY SHE SIGNED
IT WITH AN ALIAS
NOT THAT KNOW OF
DID SHE10 INTERPOSING SHE USED 4IAT NAME ON OCCASION
11 DID SHE REFUSE TO SIGN IT HELENA STOECKLEY
12 NO SHE IT FACT REALLY DIDNTJUST SGNED IN
13 PAY THAT MUCH ATTENTION TO IT KNOW THAT SAW HER
14 SIGN IT THAT WAS GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME DIDNT
15 INTERPOSING WELL DOESPT THE STATEMENT START OUT
16 HELENA FOSTER
17 YEAH IT DOES UNHHUNH
18 DIDNT THAT CATCH YOUR ATTENTION AT THAT TIME
19 IT DID AS RECALL IT DID
20 DID YOU ASK HER WHO HELENA FOSTER WAS
21 KNEW BEFORE THAT WHO SHP WAS
22 OH SEE
23 KNOW THAT SHE USED THAT NAME ON OCCASION
24 BUT THATS NOT HER REAL IS IT ITS NOT HER
25 MARRIED NAME
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TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 147
NO ITS ITS AN ALIAS THAT SHE USED
OKAY NOW MR GUNDERSON BEFORE THIS STATEMENT WAS
OBTAINED ON THE 24TH OF OCTOBER YOU HAD BEEN
INTERVIEWING HER CORRECT ME IF IM WRONG OFF
AND ON FROM THE EVENING OF THE 22ND OF OCTOBER UNTIL
THE 24TH RIGHT
YES WELL SHE ARRIVED LATE WHATEVER THE IF THE
22ND WAS ACCURATE IM NOT POSITIVE ABOUT THAT
10 WELL ITS IN YOUR REPORT
IF ITS IN MY REPORT THEN IT WOULD BE ACCURATE
12 LIKE THE MAZEROLLE RECORDS
13 BEG YOUR PARDON SIR
14 LIKE THE MAZEROLLE RECORDS
WELL WHAT ABOUT THE MAZEROLLE RECORDS
16 WELL YOUR REPORT REFLECTS THAT
17 THE COURT INTERPOSING SUSTAIN THE
IA OBJECTION TO THAT QUESTION GO ON TO SOMETHING ELSE
19 MR MURTAGH YOUR HONOR EXCUSE ME MR GUNDERSON
20 WITH RESPECT TO THE 24TH OF OCTOBER WHAT TIME DID
21 PH SIGN THIS STATEMENT
22 DONT REMEMBER EXACTLY WHAT TIME SHE SIGNED
23 STATEMENTS SHE IF THE REPORT SAYS SHE CAME IN THE
24 22ND IT WAS LATE THE 22ND THAT THEY CAME IN WE
25 REALLY DIDNT DISCUSS MUCH THAT NIGHT MAINLY JUST
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TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 148
TO GET ACQUAINTED THE 23RD THINK SHE GOT UP
LATE THE 23RD BUT IM NOT SURE IN FACT KNOW
SHE GOT UP LATE SHE WANTED TO SLEEP IN FOR BORNE
REASON TIRED GUESS AND SHE CAME OVER TO THE
OFFICE AND WE REALLY DIDNT DISCUSS TOO MUCH IT
WAS KIND OF GETTING ACQUAINTED SESSION BECAUSE ID
NEVER MET HER BEFORE ALTHOUGH ID TALKED TO HER ON
THE PHONE IN JANUARY OF 1980
AND SO WE JUST KIND OF SHE GOT
II ACQUAINTED WITH ME AND 9OT ACQUAINTED WITH HER
12 ONCE WE STARTED TALKING LITTLE BIT WE REALLY
13 DIDNT GET INTO THIS UNTIL PROBABLY LATE THE 23RD
14 IM NOT REAL POSITIVE AND INTO THE 24TH YEAH
15 OKAY NOW MR GUNDERSON DID YOU TELL HELENA
16 STOECKLEY AT ANY TIME THAT THE STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS
17 HAD RUN IN THIS CASE
18 DID ON ON THE FEDERAL STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS
19 ALSO TOLD HER THAT IT WAS MY UNDERSTANDINGIM
20 NOT LAWYER BUT IT WAS MY UNDERSTANDING THEY HAD
21 RUN AND HAD BEEN TOLD THAT BY MR SEGAL
22 YEAH WELL WHETHER THATS ACCURATE OR NOT YOU
23 ASAMATTEROFLAW
24 INTERPOSING YEAH DID TELL HER
25 YOU TOLD HER THAT
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TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 149
SURE DID
OKAY
ON THE FEDERAL BUT DIDNT ON THE LOCAL
TOLD HER THAT THERE WAS NO STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS
LOCALLY FOR CONSPIRACY OFF THE BASE WAS VERY
HONEST WITH HER
SIR
WAS VERY HONEST WITH HER
10 YES
11 CALLED IT JUST LIKE IT AS
12 MR GUNDERSON DO YOU RECALL BEING INTERVIEWED BY
13 REPORTER FOR THE LOS ANGELES HERALD EXAMINER ON
14 APRIL 1ST 1982
15 CAN YOU GIVE ME HIS NAME
16 JANET KAY STAFF REPORTER
17 CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT SAID18 INTERPOSING YES SURE CAN
19 OR WAS SUPPOSED TO HAVE SAID
20
21 GOVERNMENTS EXHIBIT 13
22 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION
23
24 LET ME SHOW YOU GOVERNMENTS THIRTEEN 13 FOR
25 IDENTIFICATION WHICH APPEARS TO BE QUESTION AND
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TED GUNDERSON CROSS VOL 150
ANSWER THING AND IF YOU WOULD LOOK AT THE
HIGHLIGHTED PORTION COUNSEL HANDS SAME TO WITNESS
WHO PERUSES SAME
PROBABLY MADE THAT STATEMENT
OKAY SO THE STATEMENT YOURE REFERRING TO THEN
MR GUNDERSON IS
QUESTION HOW DID YOU GET THE STATEMENT FROM HER
REFERRING TO STOECKJEY
10ANSWER THROUGH INVEUTI WORK
11 QUESTION AND SHE GAVE IT TO YOU WILLINGLY
12ANSWER SURE SHE DID QUITE FRANKLY WE LET HER
13THINK THERE WAS AN INFORMANT ON THE INSIDE WHO
14 ALREADY IMPLICATED HER WE COMMUNICATED TO HER
15THAT WE HAD SOMEBODY ELSE TALKING AND WE THOUGHT
16 IT WOULD BE GOOD IDEA IF SHE GAVE US HER SIDE OF
17 IT WE DIDNT HAVE ANYBODY TALKING IT WAS JUST
18 INVESTIGATIVE WORK TRICKERY HAVE YOU EVER HEARD
19 THE EXPRESSION OLD AGE AND TRICKERY WILL OVERCOME
20 YOUTH AND SKILL
21 YOU MADE THAT STATEMENT
22 YEAH THAT WAS IN MADE THAT STATEMENT
23 REMEMBER MAKING THAT STATEMENT WAS TRYING TO BE
24 FUNNY OBVIOUSLY IT WASNT VERY FUNNY NOW
25 SENSE OF HUMOR ON THE TRICKERY BIT AS FAR AS THE
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