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Carly Andrew S.S. Methods TLH Lesson Plan 10/4/12 Class Title: Civic & Social Responsibility Grade: Underclassmen in High School Teach Like a Historian Lesson Plan - The Role of Justice in the Reconciliation of the South African Apartheid THL skills/concepts: - Skills o Questioning (in Orientation) o Evidence (in primary source of TRC dialogues) o Interpretation (in second part of chalk talk poster & in actually chalk walk) - Concepts: Change & Continuity o Meets the Change & Continuity Standards at a level 3 Lesson Objective: - To begin expressing their opinion of what justice is - To begin forming thoughts (through written descriptions) about whether the TRC was successful or not Unit Objective: - Be able to express their opinions about what justice is & the outcome of the TRC to the class Prior Knowledge: - Will have just completed a unit based on how the apartheid happened in South Africa - Will have discussed the four types of justice previously - Will have discussed the formation of the TRC and their mission statement - The process of amnesty, specifically the process used in South Africa - The functioning of the TRC in terms of global justice, law, and politics Hook Into Lesson: - Begin by engaging with controversial issues of justice - Brainstorming different experiences we may have had with justice Assessment: - Formative: I will look over the chalk talk posters to see what was written on them and at what level the student’s thinking seems to be happening

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Carly AndrewS.S. Methods

TLH Lesson Plan10/4/12

Class Title: Civic & Social ResponsibilityGrade: Underclassmen in High SchoolTeach Like a Historian Lesson Plan

- The Role of Justice in the Reconciliation of the South African Apartheid

THL skills/concepts:- Skills

o Questioning (in Orientation)o Evidence (in primary source of TRC dialogues)o Interpretation (in second part of chalk talk poster & in actually chalk walk)

- Concepts: Change & Continuityo Meets the Change & Continuity Standards at a level 3

Lesson Objective:- To begin expressing their opinion of what justice is- To begin forming thoughts (through written descriptions) about whether the TRC was successful or not

Unit Objective:- Be able to express their opinions about what justice is & the outcome of the TRC to the class

Prior Knowledge:- Will have just completed a unit based on how the apartheid happened in South Africa- Will have discussed the four types of justice previously- Will have discussed the formation of the TRC and their mission statement- The process of amnesty, specifically the process used in South Africa- The functioning of the TRC in terms of global justice, law, and politics

Hook Into Lesson:- Begin by engaging with controversial issues of justice- Brainstorming different experiences we may have had with justice

Assessment:- Formative: I will look over the chalk talk posters to see what was written on them and at what level the student’s

thinking seems to be happening- Summative: a 250 word editorial to a newspaper about what justice is; including an apartheid example

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LESSON PLAN – Think Like a HistorianRoom set-up:

- 24 desks groups into six pods of four- Desks should be grouped so students are facing each other- Each desk should have a copy of the opening justice worksheet on desks as students walk-in- Justice worksheet directions will be written on the board- Driving questions will be written on the board

Tools:- 26 Justice worksheets- 15 extra-large sheets of paper- 12 markers

Objectives:- Describe & analyze origins & consequences of slavery, genocide & other persecutions, including the Holocaust

o C.12.15- Describe the evolutions of movements to assert rights of people with disabilities, ethnic & racial groups,

minorities, & womeno C.12.16

- Describe how different political systems define & protect individual human rights o C.12.2

Change & Continuity Rubric- clearly links change and continuity to a specific event or series of developments;

o How the concept of justice has evolved over time Punitive justice vs. restorative justice

- addresses change and continuity in terms of both long and short time periods, trends or patterns- may focus on only one type

o Social change- recognizes that different groups were affected in different ways

o white people, black people, women, and childrenDriving Questions

- What is justice?- How has it changed over time?

CHANGE & CONTINUITY in the concept of JUSTICEWarm-up (15 min)

- Justice worksheeto Discuss with elbow partner (6 min)

Have to fill out at least 6 promptso Compare with the people across from you in groups of four (6 min)

Briefly re-discuss the four different types of justice (3 min) Distributive, procedural, retributive, and restorative

o Ask for examples of the different types Either from the sheet or throughout history

Orientatation (8 min)- Go back over what did the day before

o Specifically the Truth and Reconciliation Committee, why they were formed, what their goals were The process that was used

- Generate questions for the day based on the driving questionsChalk-Talk

- In pods, each group will read their excerpt from the TRC hearingso They may do so in whatever way they chose to do so

15 min- As a group, discuss the article based on the following questions:

o What is justice? Must create their own definition

o Did this person receive justice?

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Why/why noto How does this person’s story fit into the idea of restorative justice?

10 min- Create a synopsis poster outlining your person’s story (in one color marker)

Note: this section should be fact basedo A second section outlining whether this person received justice (in a second color marker)

Note: this section may include opinions 10 min

- Each group will present their person’s story and their opinion on whether justice was served 18 min (3 min per group)

- Each group will rotate to every other groups poster (3 min per poster)o Why their opinion of how justice was/was not served

Why or why notClosing (4 min)

- Preview what we will be doing tomorrowo Going through what everyone wrote on their chalk talk posters

Having a class discussion about how people’s ideas have changed Outline or pre-write our editorials

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What is Justice?For each of the following scenarios, decide whether it is “Justice” or an “Injustice”, and explain why you think it is Justice or an Injustice. Your explanations should try to get to the heart of what Justice is. Don’t just say, “because it was wrong”, OR “because it was right”, these answers are insufficient. Explain in thoughtful detail.

1. A woman is required by her employer to wear makeup (blush, powder, lipstick, and mascara) as part of the "appearance guidelines" of the company. She is fired for refusing to comply with the policy.

Justice or Injustice?_________________________________________Explanation:

2. During a time of war, men can be drafted (forced) to go to battle (if Congress says they have to), but women cannot be drafted.

Justice or Injustice?_________________________________________Explanation:

3. Men's football programs at most major universities are given 10 times the amount of money given to women's basketball, volleyball, and lacrosse programs combined.

Justice or Injustice?_________________________________________Explanation:

4. Convicted sex offenders (child molesters) must register with local police. Their names are available on the Internet, and police go door to door and notify immediate neighbors.

Justice or Injustice?_________________________________________Explanation:

5. The Native Americans were removed from their homeland by white settlers and put on reservations.

Justice or Injustice?_________________________________________Explanation:

6. All students are required to say the pledge of allegiance, including the phrase “one nation, under God”.

Justice or Injustice?_________________________________________Explanation:

7. A teacher who wears a low cut blouse, a mini skirt, and lots of makeup gets hit on by her principal. He invites her to dinner and says she’ll be “sure to get a satisfactory rating.” She files a sexual harassment complaint and the principal is fired.

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Justice or Injustice?_________________________________________Explanation:

8. A woman is beaten by her husband repeatedly. She doesn’t leave him, she just kills him. She is convicted of first degree murder and sent to prison for life.

Justice or Injustice?_________________________________________Explanation:

9. A student with dyslexia (A learning disorder marked by impairment of the ability to recognize and comprehend written words) is given an unlimited amount of time to take the SAT, whereas “regular” students are given only 3 hours.

Justice or Injustice?_________________________________________Explanation:

10. People in wheelchairs are given prime parking spots, reserved just for them, closest to the entrance of buildings.

Justice or Injustice?_________________________________________Explanation:

11. People in wheelchairs are given prime parking spots, reserved just for them, closest to the entrance of buildings.

Justice or Injustice?_________________________________________Explanation:

12. Gay couples are not allowed to get married.

Justice or Injustice?_________________________________________Explanation:

13. People in New York City aren’t allowed to smoke in bars.

Justice or Injustice?_________________________________________Explanation:

14. Women ARE allowed to get abortions in the first trimester of their pregnancy.

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Justice or Injustice?_________________________________________Explanation:

15. Convicted mass murderers in Texas are put to death.

Justice or Injustice?_________________________________________Explanation:

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TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION  

YOUTH HEARINGS

SUBMISSIONS - QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

DATE: 22 MAY 1997 NAME: SANDRA ADONIS

CASE: CT/01110 - ATHLONE

DAY 3

MRS ADONIS: It was in 1985 when I started being involved in politics. I was about 15 years old and I did not have any background of politics. I always heard my grandfather use to say, he use to talk about politics and Vorster and, you know, all these things he use to make them bad, but when I got to realise why he was going on about these people, seeing how our Government was handling our people, it hurt me and I decided to get involved. At the age of 15 in 85 the school started or they decided rather to have SRC’s at these different schools. Just give me a moment and as all the schools voted for these SRC’s I was elected from my class to be a representative for them on the SRC. In majority vote I was chosen by the school as a Chairperson, then decided by my principal that I was too young, too immature to be the Chairperson. He decided that we should vote amongst each other and then people that was older than me, standard nine and matric, voted me as Assistant Treasurer. Anyway, I also served on the Action Committee in Athlone, Ned Damon Senior Secondary.

I remember quite vividly that there was one day that I had to leave school after one of the teachers told me that the police came looking for me. I left the school and I went to the lawyer's offices, because I did not know which to go, because now I knew I could not go home. There would be no home for me now. I mean, as much as I wanted to, my family could not protect me and then, well, I just had to get somewhere and by the time when they started looking for us all the other people of the Executive was missing and then a few weeks after that it was the Trojan Horse case. Shaun Magmoet then was at the same school as I was and being the only person at school, well, I just managed to get to school sometimes, and that particular morning after the shooting one of our teachers told me that Shaun was shot and, of course, being the only person left of the SRC I, it was my duty to convey the message to the students and I felt like, you know, being 15 and also feeling like a mother at the same time, because I was just thinking also what would it have been like if it was me, because, I mean, I just left them a couple of hours before this whole happening. Also seeing people being shot like Jonathan Claasen standing opposite me on the opposite side of the road was not an easy thing to just put at the back of your mind.

Then it was all, the whole thing of the exams that we could not write and all that, because we took a stand that we are not going to write exams. Basically, I just use to go and have a look at what is happening at school and

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what people is doing and who is the people that is writing exams. It was my duty, because I was on the Action Committee. After that my principal said, I do not want you on my school any more. I forced and I forced and I forced, eventually 86 he said to me finally, no, I do not want you on my school any more, because you are an instigator. I left school, I had no alternative, because I do not know whether he informed the police whether I am there, but whenever I seemed to just be away from school then the police would come looking for me there and then I decided, bull shit, I am leaving, I cannot cope with this any more.

I got a job, not a job, like, I just got a casual job where I worked for about a month. Well, I could not, like, keep up with this, because certain things happened and I was instructed also, like, to do things and in the same time I got involved with the people of Bonteheuwel, that is Bonteheuwel Military Wing. Although we have done things that we are not very proud of, but the reasons why we have done it we are proud of them, because today we can stand with our heads up high and say that we together with the nation, we have done it.

In any event, in 1987 I went, I decided that I cannot live my life without education. I went to a school in Bonteheuwel. I practically begged the principal there to take me back and I promised him that I will never participate in politics again although in my heart I knew that I will not be able to withdraw myself from my activities and, in any event, I went on trying to do, finish my schooling, but, as you know, we were all connected somehow so your Comrades would know you by name or by face. Later on I got involved again, like, within the SRC and I was chosen again to be the Chairperson of the SRC which was quite difficult for me, because, like, I promised the principal that I am not going to be involved and, as much as I tried, I could not, because my beliefs were too strong. I, because of my own background as well, my father is a white and my mother is a black or rather a coloured, as they want to call it, so called.

I never had a family life with them. My mother was a domestic maid at the so called whites. So, like, I feel that I had a difficult childhood from the start. So I hated white people and I hate the Government for doing things to me and to my people and because of that I could not, I mean, I could not deny my people my fight as well. I felt that it was not just theirs, it was mine and, in any event, I got involved in BISCO. This was the Bonteheuwel Interschools Congress and also, as I said earlier on, BMW, excuse me, the Bonteheuwel Military Wing.

Then I met my husband, Jacques Adonis. He is deceased. At the time when I met him he just came from detention after nine months. For the time that we have had a relationship before we got married things was okay. Although we were still not at home, still roaming around, still not sleeping at home, still not being able to really see our family and spend even a whole day with them. In the time I left home, my house was, they searched my house in every corner possible. What they were looking for I do not know and these were Mostert from the Loop Street Security Police and then when I joined up with them in Bonteheuwel, it was a certain Captain van Brackel who started harassing me. Again, they would invade my parent's place searching and digging for whatever they were looking for and there was a time when there was heavy conflict amongst the Comrades, because of these Boers and because they wanted to plant hatred amongst us and they wanted to put our struggle back, they planted hatred amongst us. As these conflicts went on, one particular night I could not go back to where I was hiding and I had to sleep at another ladies place and I am not going to mention any names and the next morning van Brackel was at her door knocking. He found me lying in the bed and he did not know it was me. He went downstairs and he came back up, like, in a matter of five to six seconds and he said to me, wow, you are the person I have, we have been looking for for five years and I am not going to let you go again. You have run away from Mostert, but you are not going to run away from me and he said to me, you are a terrorist and you should come to me.

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In any event there was, like, but by the time when he got hold of me I knew their checks and I was preparing myself all the time for this day. You know, it is like you prepare yourself for death, because you do not know what is going to happen and even if you want to prepare yourself how much, you will never be able to prepare yourself really. Then I decided to have a bath that specific morning and not just going with the, because I thought to myself, well, Section 29 or what the hell, I do not know, for the next 14 to 15 days or maybe three four weeks I might not be able to see my family, I might not get clean clothes. so, well, I will take a bath. Whilst I was in the bath he started shouting from outside, if you do not finish up now, I will come in there and I will fetch you and I said to him and then I realised that this door could not lock. I said to him, if you dare enter this bathroom I will certainly lay charges against you for attempted rape, because I did not have any clothes on.

In any event, I finished off and I went with them. I tried to relax and I could not. I had a hell of a headache by the time I got into their car, because I was expecting the worst of the worst and then I just had to sort myself out while I was sitting in this car and a certain Mr Strydom, I do not know what his rank was, Strydom, but he was always with this Captain van Brackel, he asked me now, why do you hate policemen. So I said, I do not hate policemen, in fact, I just hate what they are doing to my people and then I, because I thought, well, I have to say something to these people to get them out of my hair and I said to him, in fact, I would also like to be a policeman, a police woman one day and I think I played right into their hands and then when we got to the police station, in fact, the lady who we left behind said to me, "jy sê niks". Which means she is trying to implicate me in something and then he said, van Brackel said to this woman, well, I have got two big hands and I will just slap you, I will not ask questions. Anyway, so I said to him, well I will charge you for assault then if you do anything to me. I was, like, trying to hit back at him all the time, but also in a very gentle way not to have him think that this is a stubborn woman, because once you show stubbornness, they would show no mercy.

Then we went to the police station where they questioned me and later on told me that they are going to give me a form to fill in as, to become a policeman. Eventually they said to me they could not find any forms, that I should write out a letter and signing my name underneath. So up to today I do not know whether they have used this letter against me, but I hope to find out some day if they did use it or whatever they did with it.

Then I would like to come to my husband, Jacques. He was also a member of Bonteheuwel Military Wing and, in fact, I think he would, he was even more involved than I was or rather to a certain extent. There was then at the time when, just a few months after we were married and I think we were, I was about 19 or something like that, I cannot remember, when one morning van Brackel and this, I think he was a Lieutenant, yes, Strydom walked into our place and they said to my husband, you are running away again you bastard and they took him out of bed and they took him with them. The last time I have seen him he had clothes on, he was decently dressed and then the search started. They told me that I am going to find him at Bishop Lavis Police Station and then I went to Bishop Lavis Police Station and, like, he was not there.

I went home and I phoned there and they said I should phone Belleville. I phoned Belleville, nobody there. Phoned Belleville South and I just went on and on and on. I think it was for about five days it went on like that and I do not know if any of you people can imagine what it is like looking for somebody and knowing that this person is in the hands of people who are very dangerous, who are capable of doing anything, even capable of killing and by the time I got hold of my husband he was at the Belleville South Police Station. I had such a shock when I saw him, because he was full of blue and purple marks and I asked him, because we could not, like, really speak, it was one of the ordinary policeman that took him out the cell and they still said to me that I am not able, they are not able to let me speak long, because if the security branch people come and they find me

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standing there talking to him, they might lock me up as well.

Then he briefly told me that, what they did. He said to me that they have blindfolded him and they first, I think they beat him up and then they took him into a car where they drove for about five to six minutes and they took him out of the car and they took him into a building which sounded very empty with long passages and they took him into some kind of room, whether it was an office or, I do not know. He was hand-cuffed from the police station and they took off the handcuffs and they hand-cuffed him on the chair on which he was sitting. The next thing he felt was the wires that they connected to his fingers and to the back of his, to his back, to his toes as well and whether it was water, but I think it was mentholated spirits or something and they dabbed it to these wires. The next thing he felt was like his whole body was going to burst into pieces the way they given him this shock treatment and I think they have done this repeatedly and he collapsed for a few minutes. By the time when he got to, they tried to shock him again, but as they did that he moved to the front and he pulled off his, whatever, scarf or whatever it was and he saw Captain van Brackel, Strydom and, I am not sure, but I think Pikke was also with them.

Then he also said to me that he was not, like, kept separately, he was kept with the criminal people that, I mean, that, robbery and whatever and, like, one of the lawyers came there and as he called to one of the lawyers, they ignored him. They never even gave a glance in his direction which is quite upsetting if you know these are the lawyers that is working with us all the time and you know for a fact that these people know me and now suddenly these people do not, this person does not want to recognise me just because, maybe, they think that I have done something that is criminal. Then after the seventh day he was released. Not even charged, just released and I actually never heard of van Brackel after that, but I am telling you he has not tortured me, he has interrogated me by questioning me, but what he has done to my husband is, I think, the worst, because then my interrogation started. My life started being a mess.

My husband was, like, quite, he would, like, sometimes go off his trolley. He would be like a mad person and because he knows that his anger, his frustrations that he felt at that time were supposed to be directed at the State, but because I was the nearest person to him, he lashed out. Well, I understood to a certain extent, but, I mean, how much can a person take and being involved since 15, not really having enjoyed a teenage life. In fact, I said the other day to one of my Comrades, you know, it is only now that I realise that I have, like, I do not know what it is to go to a bioscope on a Saturday afternoon or even to a disco, like, many young people do today or maybe that time as well. I mean, I never had friends really. My friends, my compadres was my Comrades. Those were the only people that I could trust at that point in time and sometimes you were not even sure if you could trust them and, as I said, like, my husband was just, got worse and worse and worse. I tried to get him to counsellors and things and he would not accept, like, being counselled. He would not accept being told by other people, because what he use to say to me is that, I had enough of people telling me, I have had enough of people trying to rule my life for me and I will do as I please and, like, he was never this kind of person before. I did not know him like that and always afterwards he would say he is sorry, but, I mean, as I said, how long can a person take somebody saying sorry to you.

Just like these very Boers who have been interrogating us and torturing us, is trying to say to us today, we are sorry, we did not mean that. We do not need their apologies. Well, I do not need them, because I think my life is messed up as it is, directionless. I mean, I have lost my education and I have lost my childhood although we have in return received our freedom and our democracy in this country, but to what extent did we, as the Comrades, members of BMW gain. I do not think we have gained anything, because we are still in the same

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position as we use to be, unemployed, homeless, abandoned and there is nobody that looks back and say, well, these are the people that has fought the struggle, that has been part and parcel of the struggle and has brought us to the point where we are now. Not any recognition, I mean, and I do not want recognition for myself, but I believe and I have never ever hear anybody say anything in recognition to the youth of that time. In fact, this is the first time that I have seen there is some people who are interested in who we were and who we are now. Thank you.

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TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION  

YOUTH HEARINGS

SUBMISSIONS - QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

DATE: 22 MAY 1997 NAME: DEE DICKS

CASE: CT/00456 - ATHLONE

DAY 3

MS DICKS: Okay. I was one of the Wynberg, I am one of the Wynberg Seven. My name is Dee Dicks and 12 years ago on the 15th of October 1985 is when my story begins. Prior to that day, like the school, all schools were involved in boycotts so going to school was attending rallies at various schools in the peninsula. So I was 17 years old at the time and I was in matric at South Peninsula High School and the day started with Julian and I, with some other pupils from our school going to a rally at Grassy Park High and after that rally we went to another rally at Wittebome High in Wynberg.

When that rally ended it was decided that we would go to Imakilata High School which is also in Wynberg, because they were continuing with normal classes. So when we arrived at Imakilata some of the people within the group were shouting obscene things towards the nuns and so on and Julian and I decided to leave. On our way back, it was in Bats Road, they were erecting barricades and someone who attends our school stays in Bats Road by the name of Pandy, by the surname Pandy. So we decided to go and stand on the Pandy's stoep and watch the proceedings. So at the end of the Pandy's road at the Luxurama Theatre there is a parking lot right next to the Pandy's house and that is on the corner of Park and Bats Road and we were standing on the stoep and what happened was there was a barricade erected at the end of the parking area and at the end of Bats Road.

What happened then was that a police van rode down Park Road and some stones were thrown at them and then afterwards the police came back with reinforcements. So they were, they started shooing teargas and that and everybody who was in that vicinity ran into the Pandy's house. So there was more than 40 people in the house and what happened then was that I was in a bedroom and there was about 20-odd other pupils with me in the bedroom and we closed the door and then the police came and they knocked down the front door and the back door and they came in. They knocked down the bedroom door and then they started hitting like, a policeman started hitting like with a quirk, like at randomly. So my first intention was to get out of the room and as I got out of the room a policeman grabbed me by the scruff of my neck and on his other hand he had Amlay, Igshaan Amlay, in his other hand and he marched us straight to a police van and he closed the door and they were bringing pupils constantly like into the vans and putting them in the vans. It was ten of us at the time and we

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were taken to Wynberg Police Station.

What happened then was that we, when we were at Wynberg Police Station we stayed there for two days and we were released and we were charged with public violence and being, they found some petrol bombs in the vicinity of the house and we were charged with being in the possession of petrol bombs as well. Then our case started, our trial started and from October 1985 right through to the 19th of May 1986, that was the day that we were sentenced. My sentence was three years, two of which were suspended and one year imprisonment. What happened then my parents and everybody else within the group got involved with the organisation called the Wynberg Classes Committee and they started fighting for us for the appeal and they also had a petition to help us not go to prison. The appeal failed and then we were eight at a time and the one person who was with us was, the sentence would only be given in five years. So it was seven and that is where they name Wynberg Seven came from.

Then we went into prison. The petitions failed us well and so we had to go into prison. We made the conscious decision to go to prison, the seven of us and our parents took us in on that day, on the eighth of June, it was a Monday and we went to prison for one year and we were released 19 days short of that year which was the 19th of May 1988. We went in on the eighth of June 1987 and we came out in 88. Can I just.

MS BURTON: Take your time. It is fine.

MS DICKS: I need a tissue. So when we came into prison at the female section of Pollsmoor Prison another person was with me. So we were isolated for two weeks, kept separate from the other prisoners and then they integrated us with the other prisoners. So we had to, adjustment was difficult, but we had to mix with the other prisoners so it was common prisoners like murderers and thieves and so on. So and when we went in I was 19 at that time. So when I was in prison I was able to, it made me strong, and I was able to cope with my situation at that time and I was also fortunate to be able to complete my matric in prison and at the time the question was asked, what did it do to you at the time and I can honestly say at the time we were heroes, at that time and it, I did not feel as if it affected me at that time, but now it seems as if it is getting worse now. So I just want to go back again.

So when we came out in 1988 I went to, I started at UWC in 1989 and I studied social work and at that time my life became like directionless and no focus and my attitude was completely nonchalant to life and we, as the Wynberg Seven, we grew close before that and during our trial and so on and we drifted apart as well. We found other interests and so on and I was only able to, be able to complete my studies last year and that was from 1989. So ever since January this year when the TRC contacted, someone from the TRC contacted me and wanted to know whether we would like to give our statements to the TRC, I have been extremely, I have been a nervous wreck. It has been extremely anxious, I am anxious as I am sitting here, because it is very difficult for me to speak about it now. Then it was not, but now it is extremely difficult and I, can I get two minutes just to relax.

MS BURTON: Go ahead.

MS DICKS: So all I want to do now is like cry and it is, it angers me, because I am not in control of my crying and I my self esteem and confidence is very low at present and it is very difficult for me and sometimes I am still directionless and unfocused which is always like, you know, the experience that I lived through in the 80's

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is like forever in my mind and it has become quite difficult for me to cope and it is making me very angry, because at that time I could and now I cannot.

MS BURTON: Dee, I would like to say a couple of things, but I do not want to interrupt you if there is more that you want to say now.

MS DICKS: I just want to make, the reason why I came here today was because I thought it would be able to help me to be able to tell my story and it is ...

MR MOLEBATSI: I think you can continue to ask her questions. She says she will take questions.

MS BURTON: Perhaps just before I put any questions, I would like to thank you very much for what you have said and for having come to us in spite of the difficulties that it has caused for you. I think we are terribly conscious of what a lot we put people through when we ask them to talk to the Commission, firstly, in private and then, secondly, in public. Many of us here will remember that time extremely well, the 15th of October is, of course, also the date of the Trojan Horse and that is what we have been talking about the two previous days. So those of us who lived through those, that year and that period in the Cape Peninsula remember very vividly your own experience and that of those who were with you and I think we really affirm the kind of leadership role that you and other young people played at the time and the way in which whole communities were mobilised through what you did and in support for you at the time. So it had a very galvanising effect on people and, in spite of the awfulness of that time, I think of the things that it did was bring us all together and give us a sense of purpose and a very clear vision of what we were aiming to achieve and the problem, I think, sometimes now is that that purpose seems to be dissipated. I think of the way in which the whole Pandy family was also involved at that time and they are one of the groups of people who are identified as having made such a strong contribution.

I do not really have very many questions to ask and I notice in your statement to us that one of the things that you hope can be done is to have the criminal record expunged from your identity and your documents and I think that is something that many people have asked us, because, on the one hand, they are proud of what they did, it is not a question of wanting that record to be taken away, but they do not want to be seen as having been criminals for the part that they played and it is something that we will be taking up and I hope, also, that we will be able to ensure that you are helped with counselling to fulfil the role that I am sure still lies ahead for you in our society.

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TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION  

JOHANNESBURG CHILDREN'S HEARING

DATE: 12-06-1997

NAME: MATHADI MOREMI

DAY 1

MS MKHIZE: I would ask Mathadi Moremi to come forward please. Mathadi, I would like you to stand up please.

MATHADI MOREMI: (sworn states)

MS MKHIZE: Tom Manthata will assist you in presenting your story.

MR MANTHATA: I greet you Christene. I believe that you are tired, since you have been here the whole day. We will try and assist you and quickly go through your story.

Could you tell us what you experienced in 1982 when you were speared at that time?

MS MOREMI: It was during the night at about ten o'clock. I heard a loud noise outside, that was the windows shattering.

At the end these people were at the door, they kicked the door and it opened. People went through the door, that is when I pulled blankets off my face. I saw these people at the door, I covered myself with the blankets. Then I felt things stabbing me.

I thought it was a fork that stabbed me. They stabbed me for the second time. I rolled over the other side of the bed. They grabbed me. Whilst doing that, my brother grabbed one of the spears, then they rushed out of the house.

One of them fell on the front stoep and he left the spear behind. That is what I observed on that day.

MR MANTHATA: How old were you at that time?

MS MOREMI: I was 16 years at that time.

MR MANTHATA: Where were your parents when this incident took place?

MS MOREMI: I was not at home. Where we were, we were in a shack, the three of us, my sister and my

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brother. My sister was taking night duty at that time, it was the two of us left in that shack.

MR MANTHATA: Where were your parents at that time?

MS MOREMI: It was not in the street where we lived, where my parents lived.

MR MANTHATA: When this incident took place, what happened during the day or during the week prior to this incident?

MS MOREMI: We left school early, I was still attending school at that time, we left school early and we came home. There were people on guard during the night.

On that day, there were people who used to stand guard on that day, were not on duty I may say so.

MR MANTHATA: At that time the patrol was on the alert that people might attack, hence you had people on guard during the night?

MS MOREMI: That is correct.

MR MANTHATA: Do you think that people were on the alert that people might attack them? Who was attacking you?

MS MOREMI: Personally I cannot tell whether they were Xhoza's or Zulu's. After they had kicked open the door, one of them said, they are asleep, that is when they started stabbing me.

I cannot understand Xhoza or Zulu.

MR MANTHATA: You do not even know where they came from?

MS MOREMI: No, I don't have any recollection of where they came from.

MR MANTHATA: Your sister or your brother, did they manage to take you to hospital?

MS MOREMI: Yes, they phoned an ambulance. It came very late and then it took us to the hospital.

MR MANTHATA: Are you referring to Sebokeng hospital?

MS MOREMI: Yes, that is the hospital I am referring to.

MR MANTHATA: You gave us a hospital document.

MS MOREMI: I received letters that they were going to check documents at the hospital, that I had to sign the letter. I faxed the other one, the other I posted.

MR MANTHATA: During that night when you were stabbed, was it only you who sustained such injuries?

MS MOREMI: No, there were quite a number of us. Others passed away.

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MR MANTHATA: Others who suffered the same or rather experienced the same incident, were they youth or was it the whole community, parents and young children?

MS MOREMI: It included parents and the children, even elder sisters.

MR MANTHATA: As a community, how did you overcome this incident or how did you respond to this incident?

MS MOREMI: May you repeat the question please?

MR MANTHATA: As this incident happened to various people or rather a number of people in Boipatong, what did the community do against those who attacked you?

MS MOREMI: There are those who assisted with groceries, however, I received nothing. Some were receiving funds, some received groceries. Brenda sent a cheque to Boipatong and it was deposited into Boipatong Massacre's account.

I was told a list was compiled.

MR MANTHATA: We heard that those who attacked the Boipatong inhabitants were from KwaMadela hostel.

MS MOREMI: Yes, that we heard afterwards.

MR MANTHATA: Those who stayed at KwaMadela, what happened to them, or rather what did the community do to them?

MS MOREMI: Are you referring to the Boipatong residents?

MR MANTHATA: Yes, I am referring to them.

MS MOREMI: I do not know what happened to them, I left the place because schools were disturbed, or rather school attendance was disturbed.

MR MANTHATA: Are you referring to school in Boipatong?

MS MOREMI: Yes, I left because we no longer attended school. I didn't attend school for quite a long time. I usually came in and left school.

MR MANTHATA: For how long did school attendance stop due to those attacks?

MS MOREMI: Schools were just about to go on recess or holidays. We suddenly stopped attending school and we decided to resume school whilst the schools reopened.

MR MANTHATA: Are you still residing in Boipatong?

MS MOREMI: Yes.

MR MANTHATA: What is the situation at the moment between Boipatong and the hostel dwellers?

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MS MOREMI: There is good relations between the two parties. What separates us is the garage and the tarred road.

MR MANTHATA: What you are saying is that there is no longer conflict between the two parties?

MS MOREMI: That is correct.

MR MANTHATA: During this time, what would you say you've lost due to this attack?

MS MOREMI: What worries me is only one aspect. There are times when it is cold that this wounds become swollen and then when I scratch them, they sort of become swollen again. That is my only problem.

MR MANTHATA: At Boipatong, there is a group referred to as Kulumani, assisting those who were traumatised during that time.

MS MOREMI: They have an office there for people who sustained injuries. They did form a committee for them to levy their grievances at this office.

MR MANTHATA: How are they assisting you at this time?

MS MOREMI: On Tuesday or on Monday I attended a meeting. The others who sustained injuries or those who had their relatives dying, due to this incident, they said if it was not late they would come and levy their grievances to this committee or rather group that was established in Boipatong to see how they can assist them.

MR MANTHATA: They haven't yet assisted them, they are still trying to gather those who sustained injuries and families of those who have since died?

MS MOREMI: Ever since I have made a statement, I did not know whether these sisters who formed this group, did assist or not.

MR MANTHATA: It is true, they might have not yet assisted them in any way any one would have chosen, however, to try and bring together those who were injured and rather talk of their treatment, that is the first step to try and heal the Boipatong community.

I have no further questions, I will refer you back to the Chairperson.

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TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION  

HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS

SUBMISSIONS - QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

DATE: 02-06-1997

NAME: CHARMAINE JACOBS

CASE: ATHLONE

DAY 1

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you Wendy. We would like to call now to the witness stand, Charmaine Jacobs. If the briefer could bring Charmaine Jacobs up. Charmaine is going to be lead in her testimony by Dr Ramashala and before she does Mrs Mary Burton will swear her in.

MS BURTON: Thank you Chairperson. Are you willing to make the oath, to swear?

CHARMAINE JACOBS: (sworn states)

MS BURTON: Thank you, you may sit down.

DR RAMASHALA: Ms Jacobs, I'm going to ask you to talk about your brother. Earlier on in the tearoom, I was trying to get a sense of who your brother was and that that sense came across through your face a great deal of affection and pride in a sense for your brother. Could you, before you talk about his death, could you tell us how your family and your brother met, and I use the word met deliberately because it's really a very romantic story.

MS JACOBS: He was very young and on a particular day we found him, he was a street child, he did not have parents. He always came to my mother to ask for a little bit of bread. We always gave him some bread and then he began to stay with us until he eventually found work. On the day of his death, he went to work on that Tuesday. He had an argument at work with one of the men who worked with him. He then had to go to hospital, to the day hospital and then he returned that Tuesday.

He said that he was experiencing pain, my mother said to me he has to go and lie down. He went to lie down, or rather, we thought that he went to lie down, but in fact he did not. Two or three hours later, we had a, we called him the dog, the children then came and said that the dog has died. My mother and I said that's not possible, he's

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lying down. Then when we went to see if he was lying down, we could not find him. We then went to the police station. Two men came to us and said to us that we had to go to

the police station. My mother was not willing to go, I was not willing to go. Eventually I went. When I arrived at the police station to go and find out what was happening, one of the policemen was very rude to me. He said to me: " Who are you coaming for?" and I said I'm coaming for Jonathan Claasen, I'd heard that he was shot. There were two men from U.D.F. along with me. And then he said to me, and I must apologise for saying this, " The pig has died because of throwing stones, do you agree with me bushman?" I then said to him - Sir I don't know I did not go along with him, I was not present at the place where he was shot. They then made me to sign a document which said that I would collect the body and there would only be fifty people allowed at the wake or at the funeral. I signed these papers, we identified him at the morgue and we collected him the next morning.

There was blood on his face, running down into his neck. That is all.

DR RAMASHALA: Did Jonathan belong to any political group?

MS JACOBS: Sorry?

DR RAMASHALA: Did Jonathan belong to ant political group or political organisation?

MS JACOBS: No.

DR RAMASHALA: So he really was just a bystander on the road on that day?

MS JACOBS: Yes, that is what I feel, because he went to work. If he really was taking part in these events, then he would not have gone to work, but he was actually just coaming back from work.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you, Charmaine Jacobs and Dr Ramashala. Members of the panel, anyone who wants to ask questions? Mary Burton.

MS BURTON: Miss Jacobs, how have you and your family tried to understand what happened that day? Did you talk to other people who were there? Did they tell you what happened? Do you have a clear picture what happened?

MS JACOBS: I don't really know what happened. People came and told me what had happened, but we were not present on the scene.

MS BURTON: You thought that he was lying down, and then the next thing you heard was the news that he had died.

MS JACOBS: That is correct, we thought he was lying down.

DR RAMASHALA: Chairperson, I have said this before and I will say it again. These were children who were

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killed. I've said that while white children were going to school and playing in playgrounds, the streets, the schools and even the churches were not safe for black children. It has become clear, that even our own houses were not safe for our children.

Jonathan had a very interesting life. He was a street child. He found

a family that was willing to adopt him, to so to speak give him a new lease on life. A family that was beginning to engulf him with affection, with caring and with, what they thought was, protection. He had his dreams, he was strong, he was a weight lifter, he liked to play sports. We don't know whether today Jonathan would be a bantam weight or heavy weight boxer and we'll never know, because his life was snuffed out senselessly.

But I also want to say that these children died so that we may enjoy these very freedoms, and that is we enjoy these freedoms. I'm addressing myself to the students who are here, that we should value the benefits that come with these freedoms, education, perhaps to me, is the most important. The respect for human life is also very important. To the families, we say thank you, that while your children were victims to this senseless massacre, thank you because, they died so we may be free. Thank you chairperson.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you Mapule thank you Charmaine Jacobs, you may go down to your seat. Thank you very much.

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TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION  

HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS

SUBMISSIONS - QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

DATE: 22-07-1997 NAME: VUYISILE MNYANI

CASE: JOHANNESBURG PRISONS HEARING

DAY 2

CHAIRPERSON: We are going to start now, even two of our panellists are not back yet, or one of our panellists. I think I exceeded my powers by suggesting this break. Now we shall call upon Vuyisile Mnyani who is going to give us an over view of the homeland prisons.

Mr Mnyani, are you going to testify in Xhosa or English?

MR MNYANI: I am going to testify in Xhosa.

VUYISILE MNYANI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Vuyisile, your evidence is going to be led by Mr Lewin.

MR LEWIN: Mr Mnyani, welcome and thank you very much for coming. You are going to be telling us about two different times and two different prisons, both of which obviously affected you considerably.

The first going back to in fact the time of the Commission's work in 1960 and subsequently being imprisoned in the Transkei. If you could please in your own time and briefly tell us about these two experiences, thank you.

MR MNYANI: Thank you. I will start by my arrest. I was arrested in Cape Town in 1962. I was sentenced for seven years, sentenced on the 29th of August 1963.

I was released on the 29th of August 1970, in Robben Island. That is where I experienced these things and that is where I worked hard in prison. I would say that the condition was very bad there.

The condition was very bad in Robben Island. I remember on the 29th, when we got to Robben Island, we were assaulted by the boers under the Chief of the Police, (indistinct). We worked very hard in prison but I felt pain on the day when the boers came to take my cousin Badon Bubelo Kuboka.

They told me that they were going to kill him. I then said are these Judges also police because they told me that he was going to be killed. He was sentenced for three years. I was very bitter.

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As a result of that, we would go and pray when Bubelo Kuboka was taken from home. They told me that he was going to be hanged by the warders. This disturbed me, this disturbed my life.

We grew up together, we went to school together. We were then arrested for political activities. He was in Paarl, I was in Cape Town. When we were sentenced by President Justice Beyers in Cape Town, we experienced difficulties because the interpreter was not a Black person, it was a boer and our lawyer, Mr Combrink, complained about this. He then said our presentation of our case is not correct because the interpreter was not saying what we were saying.

If we can find two people who can clarify what we were saying, the lawyer said that he would appreciate that. We worked very hard in Robben Island. I remember one day the warders were treating us very badly, we were working very hard. They said that all the drivers must go this way.

We were going to give them their proper duty. Men ran away, saying that they were going to drive a car not a wheelbarrow. They went in the back and all the wheelbarrows were taken. There is sand in Robben Island and the wheelbarrow's tyre was an iron, steel. We were so surprised that we wanted to know where they were going to get these cars to be driven because we only saw the wheelbarrows.

These people worked very hard, so much that one of them collapsed. After that, a shallow grave was dug and he was taken to that hole. There were prisoners named as (indistinct), they urinated to this man's mouth and they told him that they were giving him wine. What I am trying to say is that we were under difficult conditions.

I prayed to God because I was the tallest of all, I had to work hard. I was trying to save those behind me.

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me Mr mnyani, we have already heard about what happened in Robben Island yesterday and today. We would like you to mention about what was happening in the homeland prisons, so that we can get clarity about these prisons.

MR MNYANI: Thank you. I was arrested in 1988. Mr Makwetu and I were together, but I was out on bail with Mr Bendulo Stqebo and others, Mr Mahlebe. We were together. While we were still on trial, my attorney, Mr Majeke, Pumzile Majeke, tried to defend me by all means.

Mr De Klerk then said that the political organisations were unbanned, we were then released. When I came back from Robben Island, I was very disturbed because every Wednesday the police would come at home and this disturbed me. My mother and my father were there, my wife was also there, and my children.

They then called me one day and I said that I am not going to come to you. My father said that I was causing trouble for myself. I was a prisoner while I was at my home. Every day Bezuidenhout would come at my home looking for me and here in Transkei I was never in prison, but I was arrested and I was assaulted, tortured in the police cells by the police, Transkeian police.

Where I worked hard, was in Robben Island. In Transkei I was not in prison. My case was dismissed.

MR LEWIN: Were you charged with anything in Transkei in 1988?

MR MNYANI: Yes, I was charged. They said that I was trying to bring about political organisations in Transkei.

MR LEWIN: That was again associated with the PAC?

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MR MNYANI: Yes, it was associated with the PAC.

MR LEWIN: Then you were actually kept in prison in the Transkei, even though you were only charged?

MR MNYANI: Yes, I was kept in the police cells for a month, I was then out on bail. My case was dismissed while I was out on bail.

MR LEWIN: Okay. Mr Mnyani, you also mentioned in your statement about an assault on you with an iron stool, could you tell us about that?

MR MNYANI: Yes, I was assaulted with an iron stool in my leg. And I was injured, Dr Solombela helped me in Butterworth, he treated me. After that the Special Branch went to this Doctor, because they said to him if he was working together with the politicians, he would be in trouble.

He treated me and he helped me, Dr Solombela.

MR LEWIN: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Dumisa?

MR NTSEBEZA: Do you still remember the person who assaulted you with this iron stool? What was the police's name?

MR MNYANI: I have forgotten the name. But they were under Zolani Madikizela, although he did not assault me. When we were tortured, Zolani would go out and leave us with these people, I have forgotten the name of this police.

MR NTSEBEZA: Was there any Transkeian police in court by the name of Madikizela?

MR MNYANI: Yes, Madikizela was a Sergeant, but I have forgotten the name of the police who had assaulted me with this iron stool. They would kick me while I was laying down. Sometimes I would lie on my stomach and they would kick me.

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mnyani, we would like to thank you. We would like to thank your presence here today, especially because you come from far away to tell us your story.

We have heard about the stories in Robben Island, about what was happening in Robben Island. You are also here. I can see that what we heard yesterday reminded you about what was happening to you in Robben Island.

We thank you for coming here and we hope that in your heart there is peace because the police would never repeat what they did to you, they would never treat people as they treated them before. Thank you.

MR MNYANI: Thank you.

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TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION  

HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS

WOMEN'S HEARING

DATE: 29 JULY 1997

NAME: SIMON FONKO MALAKOANE

CASE: JB01170/03VT

DAY: 2

CHAIRPERSON: While Jubie is leaving the podium, I will ask Simon Malakoane to come forward please. Simon. For you, Sir, I must say it has been, really, a long day. I will ask Joyce Seroke to assist you in taking your oath and in presenting your statement.

MS SEROKE: Mr Malakoane, would you prefer to testify in Sesotho or English? Please stand up and let you take the oath. Raise your right hand.

SIMON FONKO MALAKOANE: (Duly sworn in, states).

MS SEROKE: Thank you. You are going to tell us about matters that happened on the 17th of June 1982. Will you tell us what happened on that day whilst you were asleep with your wife at home.

MR MALAKOANE: It was at about past ten, quarter past ten, I was asleep already. I heard a lot of noise outside. As I went outside my wife came out and said are you still standing, can you not see that it is already bad outside. She was wearing a pink cloth. I lifted up the fence, she jumped over this fence. After we have jumped over this fence we came across these people shooting at us. I managed to run away. As I tried to pick her up she told me that I am hurting her. She was eight months pregnant. I decided to leave her. She said to me find out help for us.

I ran away whilst they were still shooting at us, but they could not hit at me, until I came across this dirty water. I was only wearing my underwear. As I jumped into the water the bullet whisked me, but I was covered with mud on my face. However, I managed to wipe off the mud. I sat down, but I heard that these people were still after me. I continued to run away. I ran across a street. That is when I, a caspar arrived in my direction. I hid myself somewhere. As it passed I reappeared again and went into one man's house there. At this man's house I knocked, he opened the door and asked me what is the problem? I said to him there is gunfire outside here.

After he asked me that this caspar drove by. I sat there until six o' clock in the morning. At quarter past six I left this man's home. A lot of people were around his home. When I arrived at home I found that my wife was

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already dead. I concluded that what has happened did happen. I sat there at home. The police arrived asking us questions what happened. However, I did not respond to their questions.

MS SEROKE: As you came back to your place where did you find your wife?

MR MALAKOANE: The distance was from about where I am seated to the end of your table there.

MS SEROKE: Was she dead or was she still alive then?

MR MALAKOANE: She was already dead. My father was there and my grandfather was already there. The police wanted to take her away, but they refused.

MS SEROKE: Who were these people shooting at you?

MR MALAKOANE: You know, there were people speaking in Zulu. I heard them saying that we will kill this dogs of Mandela. They were speaking in Zulu. By the time I turned and look into their direction it was already late, but my wife whisked me away.

MS SEROKE: Are you referring now to the Boipatong Massacre?

MR MALAKOANE: We did hear that in Boipatong there was this massacre.

MS SEROKE: Was your wife amongst the people who were killed on that day? Do you know the number of people involved in that massacre?

MR MALAKOANE: There were quite many. I cannot recall their number.

MS SEROKE: As you found your wife dead, you say she was eight months pregnant. Did the child survive?

MR MALAKOANE: No, the child did not survive.

MS SEROKE: How did your child pass away?

MR MALAKOANE: There was this bullet that got my wife just about, underneath the armpit.

MS SEROKE: Did you approach the police to lay a charge about this incident?

MR MALAKOANE: The policemen were not of much use at that time. Hence, I did not report this to them.

MS SEROKE: Did your neighbours got attacked or these people actually targeted your house?

MR MALAKOANE: They did attack my neighbour's homes and one of the males who was my neighbour was attacked.

MS SEROKE: Did they randomly attack any homes?

MR MALAKOANE: Yes, they did, but they sort of selected homes they targeted.

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MS SEROKE: During the funeral, was there a combined funeral or, of people who were maimed during the massacre?

MR MALAKOANE: It was a combined funeral of those who were maimed during the massacre.

MS SEROKE: In your statement you state that the Goldstone Commission did interview you. What was their intention about this matter?

MR MALAKOANE: They stated that they will refer this matter to court, but nothing transpired thereof. The case just ended up there. That was my first born who was killed in my wife's womb.

MS SEROKE: Did you get married afterwards?

MR MALAKOANE: No, I did not.

MS SEROKE: Now, what is it that you would like the TRC to do for you? Are there any recommendations that you so wish we implement, to the TRC?

MR MALAKOANE: Anything that might be of assistance, I will feel satisfactory if it comes my way.

MS SEROKE: I thank you. I will hand over to the Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yasmin Sooka. I would just like to thank you for coming forward. This is one of the sad stories where people turned against each other and, based on what we have heard, some of the people who were involved in the actual killing were working with some security agents, but our Investigative Unit is continuously looking at the Boipatong Massacre and as soon as their report is complete, we will keep you informed. Also, at the time when we are looking at reparations we will review your story and see what should be done. Thank you very much.

MR MALAKOANE: Okay, okay.

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■ CONCLUSION91. Ours is a remarkable country. Let us celebrate our diversity, our differences. God wants us as we are. South Africa wants and needs the Afrikaner, the English, the coloured, the Indian, the black. We are sisters and brothers in one family - God’s family, the human family. Having looked the beast of the past in the eye, having asked and received forgiveness and having made amends, let us shut the door on the past - not in order to forget it but in order not to allow it to imprison us. Let us move into the glorious future of a new kind of society where people count, not because of biological irrelevancies or other extraneous attributes, but because they are persons of infinite worth created in the image of God. Let that society be a new society - more compassionate, more caring, more gentle, more given to sharing - because we have left “the past of a deeply divided society characterised by strife, conflict, untold suffering and injustice” and are moving to a future “founded on the recognition of human rights, democracy and peaceful co-existence and development opportunities for all South Africans, irrespective of colour, race, class, belief or sex.”

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■ CRITICISMS AND CHALLENGES

. 36  We have been concerned, too, that many consider only one aspect of justice.

Certainly, amnesty cannot be viewed as justice if we think of justice only as

retributive and punitive in nature. We believe, however, that there is another kind

of justice - a restorative justice which is concerned not so much with punishment

as with correcting imbalances, restoring broken relationships – with healing,

harmony and reconciliation. Such justice focuses on the experience of victims;

hence the importance of reparation.

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■ RECONCILIATION71  We should accept that truth has emerged even though it has initially alienated

people from one another. The truth can be, and often is, divisive. However, it is only

on the basis of truth that true reconciliation can take place. True reconciliation is not

easy; it is not cheap… I want to make a heartfelt plea to my white fellow South

Africans. On the whole we have been exhilarated by the magnanimity of those who

should by rights be consumed by bitterness and a lust for revenge; who instead have

time after time shown an astonishing magnanimity and willingness to forgive. It is not

easy to forgive, but we have seen it happen.