“Angeles Arrien Interviews w TC” (Transcription and Footage Log 8-29-13)

00:08:12 Camera: Medium CU of Angeles Arrien 00:08:12 Angeles Arrien: Good. 00:08:20 Angeles Arrien: Oh good. Oh great. 00:08:31 Angeles Arrien: Oh wo- oh wonderful. Oh wonderful. 00:08:59 Angeles Arrien: A network yeah. Yeah. 00:09:05 Angeles Arrien: Yeah yeah. Yeah, they’re pods. Little pods across the country. 00:09:56 Angeles Arrien: Yeah. Well I think it’s so- it’s so interesting that every culture of the world ritualizes [four] great rites of passage. There’s not a culture in the world that doesn’t ritualize birth, initiation, marriage or death. All cultures of the world ritualize and understand that there’s a great mystery in these developmental stages of life and life itself is that (00:10:26) luminous pause really between two great mysteries which are one, birth, and death. And anything new- I I love that every culture also, besides birth, death and marriage, every culture has a way to transmit their values and a way to transmit what has heart and meaning, and what’s connected with life purpose and [like] life calling. And and um I think it’s so (00:10:56) interesting that um initiation literally means “the capacity to learn something new and demonstrate to someone else that I’ve learned it.” And uh- which is really exploring uncertainty, exploring what’s unknown, but in order to do that, I have to leave something and go forward. And- so I think there are different rites of passage (00:11:26) cross-culturally, but I think it’s unfortunate in many ways that our rites of passage for teens or youth, in many ways, have been either um um drugs or alcohol or driving uh or graduation rituals uh uh are markers of of leaving something old and entering into something new. Or the first job or the- uh but they’re not (00:11:56) ritualized in so- some way. And cross-culturally all of the cultures of the world have somehow, there’s been a relationship between initiation and nature, nature and uh being connected to nature in some way. And I know for myself that uh last 40 years has been really about making sure that people are reconnected to nature. And I take people out for 3 days

(00:12:26) or 3 nights, wilderness experiences uh because I feel that the more that we’re connected to outer nature, we’re also connected to our own inner nature. And the more that we’re not connected to the outer nature, we’re disconnected from our own interior wilderness and our interiority or the mystery of of our own purpose and who we are and what has heart and meaning. And so the combination (00:12:56) of nature and silence and the ultimate befriendment of oneself, or time to be alone uh in nature without diversion, uh is one of the oldest forms cross-culturally of rites of passage, especially for young youth. Uh and um so (00:13:26) I think that, I know my generation spent more time outdoors than indoors. And yet now there are more people spending time, especially our youth, spending more time indoors than outdoors. And there’s become, just in the last 10 years, what’s called, Richard Louv calls nature deficit syndrome which is, you know, people not- (00:13:56) now having fear about going out into nature. Uh and I think there’s uh something that’s primal, that inherent in the human spirit regardless of our age is that uh there’s nothing that mo- moves rapidly in nature unless it’s in danger. And uh nature’s rhythm is medium to slow and we’re creatures of (00:14:26) nature. And so our natural, inherent rhythm is medium to slow. And yet we have been moving in the fast lane for a long time and there’s a lot we can do in the fast lane, we can create and we can produce and get overstressed, but there are two things we can’t do in the fast lane. And one is that we can’t integrate our experience or reflect, and secondly, um we can’t (00:14:56) uh in any way um um not only integrate our experience but uh we can’t develop or deepen our own character. It requires us coming back into our natural rhythm which is nature’s rhythm which is medium to slow. And there’s- at each juncture, rite of passage, the quality of of mentoring or sponsorship or learning (00:15:26) from the elders or uh- we’ve lost that kind of conscious transmission uh from the first initiation where- which is um the initiation from um birth to puberty, uh is what’s called a same sex role modeling initiation, is that the (00:15:56) mother to the daughter, the father to the son. After puberty there is the cross initiation that takes place, and the father initiates or prepares the daughter to be self sufficient into the world, and the mother uh releases the son to go into the world rather than to hold on to uh the son because there’s- there (00:16:26) should have been that male to male preparation before uh puberty. And those are things that are archetypally standard and uh worldwide, uh it’s something in the human spirit. And so I think that um there’s been a a mix that sometimes, the father’s initiating the daughter and the mother’s initiating the son before (00:16:56) puberty, which is is is uh not the way. Uh and uh doing that premature- (camera cuts) 00:17:20 Angeles Arrien: Now you, you asked me the question, you know, who [has] initiated me? Uh, my first initiators were really my parents and my grandparents. And um, I’m Basque heritage and and I have a deep connection to land and to the outdoors. And, so they were my first big initiators. Uh professionally later, my big initiators have been uh Joseph (00:17:50) Campbell

and Huston Smith and Margaret Mead, uh were big influences uh on my life. Um, but every decade, you know, I’m always looking uh to see because I really believe that every decade of our life has a gift and a challenge, but most importantly an important stranger, someone who appears. That initiates us into (00:18:20) a new interest or a new opportunity to facilitate our own growth and development. And uh there’s always been an important figure in each decade of my life that’s been either connected with the unfoldment of my relationship work or my uh work in the world work. Uh there’s always been somebody that has shown up in every decade. And they’ve (00:18:50) also been people of different ages, sometimes it’s an older person, sometimes it’s a younger person, but I always look to see, well who will be the important stranger because I I do believe that um there are people who really initiate us. And I know um uh sitting on the steps of the Sorbonne when I was 28 years old uh I was lost in thought, thinking about (00:19:20) well, you know, if I was really going to do anymore studies, you know, what would I really like to do? And um, and so I was deep in thought about that and this young man came up and he had a backpack and he said, “Well you’re really lost in thought.” And I thought, well, you know, this is an interesting come on. Um and I tried to dis- dismiss him. He said, “No, you’re really lost in thought. I I really wanna know what you were thinking (00:19:50) about.” And I said, “Well, if you really must know, I was thinking about if I were to go back to school in anyway, is that I would like to do all of these things, but I couldn’t think about what that- if there was one place for it.” And he said, “Well where were you thinking about?” I said, “Well, I was thinking I’d like to do something with music or art or philosophy or comparative religions or psychology and something that was international.” He said, “Oh I know what that is.” And I said, “You do?” (00:20:20) And he reached in his backpack and he flipped through this UC Berkeley catalogue and he said, “Here it is. It’s cultural anthropology. See it’s music, art, philosophy, religion and study of cultures and it’s international and,” and he said, “Oh here, keep it.” And he walked away and I felt that that was like an important stranger that really took me (00:20:50) into anthropology. That fall I was at UC Berkeley and anthropology and and I’ve- my work is about psychology and comparative religions and also taking people out into the wilderness. And cross-culturally working with indigenous peoples from around the world and so, uh and all the great mysteries and- of birth, marriage, initiation and death. 00:21:19 Angeles Arrien: Yeah lucky me, but, you know, it’s always interesting to see who are, who are the, who are the people. And I think we’re consciously being initiated by all the important relationships in our lives. And especially the ones that uh capture our imagination, uh the ones that somehow we find ourselves either learning (00:21:49) uh because of mutual interest or learning because they were drawn to their character or learning what we don’t want, uh clarifying. You know I often t- think about who have been the people who have been great teachers about my values and that I’ve pushed hard against in some way. Uh and I think we’re

hungry for that in this culture. We’re hungry for a certain kind of (00:22:19) rigor. Uh and uh that’s uh important for us to have uh that aligns with deeper values. 00:23:22 Angeles Arrien: And also travel has become that as well. The journey or the pilgrimage or going to another culture, you know, uh initiates people. As well. 00:24:10 Angeles Arrien: Yeah, I think it does. Um I I think that um I’m always an advocate for the [BothAnd.] I I think there’s a a natural initiation process that’s occurring whether people are conscious of it or not, but when you can bring um a a structure, a conscious awareness to initiation (00:24:40) which tribal peoples have done for years, uh it is an enhancement. I think uh- so I’m I’m an advocate for the [BothAnd.] I don’t, I I think the wilderness programs, I think that’s where Outward Bound for years uh, you know, was ahead of its time. You know, taking people of all ages in into nature. I (00:25:10) think travel has been another initiatory process, sometimes it’s unconscious, sometimes it’s a structured program. But something happens in a s- a conscious structured way that some people will either resist because they may not like structure, and the same thing will happen for those who who want to experience more space or more freedom. It’s something that that happens. Uh… 00:25:43 Angeles Arrien: Cause there’s a longing in, there’s in the DNA, there is something within the human being that longs for that consciously or subconsciously. And will will attract people into their life for that wittingly or unwittingly. Or experiences, they will choose experiences wittingly or unwittingly to have that. But when there’s a conscious need, you know right now, it’s like well this- (00:26:13) these are really good programs for “troubled” youth. For troubled youth, uh you know. 00:26:23 Angeles Arrien: Yeah, it’s for all youths, you know. But that’s where they’ve gotten their first interest is, oh well it works for troubled youth, well, why wouldn’t it work for anyone? Well because it’s archetypal. It’s in our DNA. It’s in our DNA. 00:26:49 Angeles Arrien: Yeah. 00:26:55 Angeles Arrien: Yeah. 00:27:09 Angeles Arrien: Yeah. Point, yeah.

00:27:16 Angeles Arrien: Yeah yeah yeah. That’s well said. 00:27:23 Angeles Arrien: Yeah. 00:27:26 Angeles Arrien: Oh we need, we need the [BothAnd]. 00:27:29 Angeles Arrien: Yeah we do. Yeah we do. And I also think that it’s interesting at this time in history that there is an increased longevity. You know, and and why is that so? You know is that we have more uh people over the age of of 60 in our in our culture than we’ve ever had before. Well what, what is the reasoning behind that? Because I I really think that there’s a- 00:28:01 Angeles Arrien: Yeah what’s purpose is it serving? And I think it’s serving a purpose of of real generative legacy, mentoring, giving back not only to the midlifers but also to the youth it’s a- it’s uh recoalescing something that’s more intergenerational. I think the United States, for example, uh one reason that I wrote the book on the second half of life is that the United States has the highest suicide rate (00:28:31) in the world between their youth and elders than any other culture in the world. And we’re also the most ageist society. And so we’re we’re relearning how to build those intergenerational bridges. And I think rites of passage function, that conscious rites of passage, uh really contribute to that. And I- 00:28:55 Angeles Arrien: Those links which I think are elemental, essential links that have not been broken in the rest of the world. The rest of the world works intergenerationally. 00:29:17 Angeles Arrien: That’s right. 00:29:20 Angeles Arrien And they’re not put aside. 00:29:26 Angeles Arrien: That’s right. 00:29:30 Angeles Arrien: Yeah yeah yeah. And “we.”

00:29:38 Angeles Arrien: Oh good. Yes. Good. 00:29:43 Angeles Arrien: Yeah. That’s beautiful. Practice eldership, that’s so beautiful. That’s so beautiful. 00:30:04 Angeles Arrien: Oh youth rite- rites of passage at this time I think are essential and elemental because the function of of- if if we’re not initiating our youth they will self-initiate themselves which they’ve already started to do through gangs or they’ve started uh to do it in other ways. Cause there’s a primal need, a- it’s primal need to be (00:30:34) initiated. Not by peers. Not by peers. You know, that’s a natural initiation that takes place, you know, the peer pressure and all of that, you know, but that’s the time where they really need to be uh uh initiated. Also, simultaneously for their individuation process by- to have successful uh individuation is that it can’t be a peer initiation, it has to (00:31:04) be a a an adult mentoring relationship or a practicing mentor as an elder and so some way. And uh it’s interesting to me that youth will be drawn especially to elders that they admire and respect especially- not only as a person but in (00:31:34) how they can be facilitated to garner skills with their own gifts and talents or or their interests. And I think uh, you know, it’s such a ripe age, it’s such a formative age. Not only the age between uh uh 14 to uh 18, but the other age that we we really don’t attend to very well, is like from 18 to 24, uh is (00:32:04) into young adulthood. You know, there’s the pubescent initiation uh between 12 to 14 and 16 into that timeframe, but from 18 to 21, especially, is another another place where- those are two threshold places that require initiation. And um that’s why I’m so excited about the work that that you’re doing and (00:32:34) that you’re making more conscious because I think there’s a place and a role for uh initiating uh both of those places. Uh I love Sharon Parks’ uh work on um um- “Big Dreams, Worthy Questions” is the title of her book. And she deals with the 18 to 21, but there- those questions are still applicable for pubescents. You know, because people are being (00:33:04) called uh to different aspects of themselves and they’re real formative times and imprinting times. Another deep imprinting time is in in the late 30’s and the early 40’s is like entering into a second uh- yeah middle age. Then you have the decade of the 50’s which is a preparation for the wisdom years which begin at 60, uh (00:33:34) the youth of eldership is is the 60’s, the midlife of eldership is the 70’s, and 80 to 100 is true eldership. So um and... 00:33:57 Angeles Arrien: Uh I personally feel that uh it’s it’s needed now because we’re so disconnected. You know, uh we’re d- disconnected from nature. We’re disconnected from each other. Uh we’re disconnected um- there’s so much polarity uh between face-to-face and the tech world,

(00:34:28) and nature and urban, rural and urban. Uh it’s also an age where there’s more violence. You know, all that energy if it’s not initiated will go into violence. 00:34:56 Angeles Arrien: Yeah, that’s right. The news of the day. 00:35:13 Angeles Arrien: Yeah that’s well said. 00:35:23 Angeles Arrien: Yeah. 00:35:34 Angeles Arrien: Yeah. The relationship between mentorship and initiation is, as I- I I think two sides of the same coin. {Laugh.} Uh is that you cannot have mentorship without initiation and you cannot have initiation, a successful initiation without mentorship or stewardship. So I think they’re absolutely two sides of the same coin. And what’s really true about initiation, it has (00:36:04) a beginning, it has a midpoint and it has an end, as every threshold does. And so in the beginning is everything uh and and some people begin well and some people take a long time to enter into. You know, we e- it’s just interesting to watch how people approach beginnings. And some people love beginnings but then at the midpoint, they get (00:36:34) bored so they act out or think “been there, done that,” you know. And so great beginnings but at the midpoint, there are some people that get challenged or some people think “oh I’m reaching my peak!” and get accelerated by it. And so some people are very good at be- beginnings and midpoints but other people will get to an end and everything gets activated because they don’t do closure well or the fear of loss or endings uh (00:37:04) come up. Uh and some people love endings and celebrate and so on, etcetera. But initiation requires, those three points are absolutely essential. And this culture does not know how to do honorable closure well. Knows how to initiate a lot of things uh it’s a visionary culture and a creative culture that has great diversity and they love anything that’s new and exciting and faddish (00:37:34) and radical and so on, etcetera. So we love beginnings but we don’t sustain at the midpoint. A lot of dropping out at the midpoint where it gets rigorous or there’s accountability or uh we hit vulnerable places. And so uh, and then we may do very well at the beginning and the midpoint, but this culture has a lot of issues around closing well and ending well and and uh (00:38:03) demonstrating that, you know, the skill level or demonstrating something else. Uh and I love the word demonstration because it means demonstrative, but also to demonstrate, to show. But if you can’t complete well or demonstrate or be demonstrative in your personhood then that word also holds the word “demon” and “monster” in it. Demon and monster. (00:38:34) So the shadow side really comes up and is evoked. So I think it’s very interesting that closing, you know, how to make honorable closure and uh is so important.

00:38:57 Angeles Arrien: Yes. 00:39:02 Angeles Arrien: Right. Yeah yeah. Yeah. 00:39:22 Angeles Arrien: Right yeah. 00:39:26 Angeles Arrien: Right. 00:39:31 Angeles Arrien: Oh yeah. 00:39:39 Angeles Arrien: Yeah right. 00:40:02 Angeles Arrien: Yeah yeah. 00:40:22 Angeles Arrien: No. 00:40:29 Angeles Arrien: Well. Well I think, what’s again um the [BothAnd], whether it’s rites of passaging a community and being held there, or whether it’s a program without community, I think what’s uh what is a bridge that hasn’t been uh made, that has been made over and over again uh in all the ancient cultures of the world, in the indigenous peoples, is that uh (00:40:59) if you’re going to have a program on rites of passage then part of that preparation is to include who’s gonna be on the other end when you get home. That they’re there in the beginning, they’re their creating 12 people, 12 people that are really your council of support. And who would you pick, your, you know, who are are the per-, you know, who are all your heart connections? And that would be an invitation in (00:41:29) your community uh uh where you can bridge the [BothAnd]. 00:41:35 Angeles Arrien: Yeah the the mentors. You know, who, whoever, who are four best friends that aren’t having this experience, that would be there. Who are four elders or mentors that you definitely, besides your parents or your grandparents, relatives, who are the key relatives you

want there? Who are the key mentors you want there? Who are the key friends or peers that you want there? That’s your council of 12. 12 (00:42:05) because that’s the village, that’s the number for the village, it’s also archetypal. But that’s how you can blend the [BothAnd]. And in ancient cultures, or indigenous cultures, that that is done before you go back into the community. That’s the first circle that that meets you and I think that’s the opportunity for all of the programs that are doing rites of passage, is how to blend both community and (00:42:35) rites of passage structured programs together. We get back to an archetypal imprinting. 00:42:59 Angeles Arrien: Probably to clarify the- (adjusts for the camera) 00:43:40 Angeles Arrien: Yeah I think it, uh, the parents are the first uh role models of imprinting um the masculine or the feminine aspects. Whether we have uh heterosexual parents or same sex parents, they’re they’re role models. But they don’t initiate you, they are mentors, but they don’t- they’re not on the initiatory side (00:44:10) of the coin. And at- mostly it’s it’s aunts, uncles like you mentioned uh or uh important elders or teachers in the community or in the neighborhood. You know, different people in the neighborhood uh you might befriend or teachers when you go to school uh- (camera cuts) 00:45:36 Angeles Arrien: God knows. {Laugh.} Um, I was very blessed um as far as who’s initiator- who has initiated me is um I I really was initiated first by my family. Um my grandparents and we lived in a 3 generational family and my parents were immigrants uh (00:46:06) to this country. And um, so I was first generation and um my sister and I um basically were very bonded uh because we went through the school system here, as people, first generation. And um… and our our parents made sure that, you know, we learned English uh so that (00:46:36) we wouldn’t have to face uh discrimination in any way. But we still did. Uh and so um we learned at a very early age that quote we were different, uh being raised uh in the Basque culture. And uh the largest Basque community outside of the Pyrenees mountains is in Boise, Idaho or in Idaho and we were in southern Idaho, (00:47:06) in Twin Falls. And so I would say that uh my grandparents and my parents were really my first initiators. Um and that being raised bi-culturally uh, I think, um was a huge initiation um of really um knowing that there was more than just the American way or the Basque way because (00:47:36) I think the imprinting and being raised biculturally that there’s something um… emerges that’s a a third, third integration of the [BothAnd] that couldn’t happen in any other way. And so I became very interested um very early in other cultures and always wanted, always knew that I wanted to teach and always knew that I wanted to do something (00:48:06) that was, that involved many cultures. Uh and at the time, uh uh storybook dolls were very fashionable uh and we were given storybook dolls. And storybook dolls were dolls from different cultures and they were put in a

box and then there was a story about that culture and so I had a Native American doll and an African doll and a flamenco dancer and a a British princess (00:48:37) and and we had uh a Chinese kimono Ja-, I mean a Japanese kimono and then a Chinese doll as well. And I gave them all different languages and practices and lined them up all into different rows and all of that. And little did I know that eventually I would be drawn to being a cultural anthropologist, integrating comparative religions and (00:49:06) mythology and folklore, all cultures. And and I think that that came from being raised biculturally and uh from an immigrant family and being first generation. And um, so that had I think the biggest imprint and the biggest uh initiation was how to integrate the [BothAnd] without feeling I had to sacrifice one for the other, and how to integrate the (00:49:36) two two- learn how to be more transcultural, but also come from a very ancient Basque root. 00:50:17 Angeles Arrien: Well um it’s- what initiated me really into rites of passage or taking people out onto the land, which has been the heart of my four fold way work. And taking thousands of people uh out for 3 days and 3 nights in the Arizona desert or in the hills of uh northern California, above tree lines, um to have that uh experience of of really (00:50:47) being alone for 3 days and 3 nights in silence and in nature um uh I think also comes from uh that the Basque people are very land based people and indigenous peoples worldwide. And and I’ve been very interested in in um exploring indigenous peoples cross-culturally and all of them have a a deep commitment to silence and a deep (00:51:17) commitment to nature. And I think there’s something with the combination of silence and nature, there’s a deep remembering about the essence of the human spirit and who we really are. Uh just the mystery of silence let alone the mystery of the- of creation, of all the lifeforms in nature including all the plantlife and the trees and the birds and the furred creatures (00:51:47) and the scaled creatures and the 8-leggeds and the winged ones. You know, it’s just um amazing uh what we learn about our own nature. And I really feel that the essential component of rites of passage c- in silence and in nature uh fosters a deep remembering of who we really, really are and beyond cultural (00:52:17) conditioning or family imprinting. And uh that nothing else um our mentors, or people who take us through rites of passage, can be guides but there’s something in silence and in nature that delivers us uh to a a preverbal, primal uh deep soul remembering that can’t be accessed in any other way. 00:53:36 Angeles Arrien: Well I think in silence and in nature there’s no cultural appre- appropriation. Silence and nature is something that transcends cultures, transcends uh ideologies, transcends uh a- transcends um um modern moder- uh modern times. Um, you know, I- there’s something (00:54:05) that once we’re really connected to deep listening in silence, there’s a mystery we touch there and a reflection through outer wilderness uh which mirrors our own interiority, the wilderness and um um expansiveness of who the human spirit really is and is not that that you

can’t get (00:54:36) in any other way. Music also transcends us to that that deep remembrance as well. And it’s there that, you know, I’m I’m so reminded of of Jared Manley, uh Jared Jared Hopkins Man- no his name is Jared Manley Hopkins (Gerard Manley Hopkins), uh the poet who said you know it’s in “in silence and in nature that you touch the dearest, freshest, (00:55:06) deep down things.” That’s a won- wonderful line from his poem, “the dearest, freshest, deep down things.” And what really matters most and what really matters most in each human being uh is an original calling and a deep remembrance of an essential purpose or life dream or uh gifts and talents that are arranged (00:55:36) in a certain way, in each human being, uh that uh is like the original imprint or fingerprint. Uh and we’re all here for a purpose and rites of passage, uh whether it’s the mystery of birth or the mystery of death or the mystery of marriage or the mystery of initiation, which rites of passage is, the mystery of initiation uh delivers us to that (00:56:05) primal originality that lives within each human being that uh cannot be garnered or duplicated by anyone else. 00:57:00 Angeles Arrien: Well I think it’s very interesting that each culture has uh storytelling and song and dance and um um ways of initiation to imprint um traditional values of that culture. But every initiatory rite really, ultimately uh delivers people into their own inherent morality or ethics that transcends culture. (00:57:30) That’s what perennial wisdom, or perennial philosophy, is that what’s transmitted throughout all the cultures is an inherent, universal value or ethical or morality uh. Uh you know, it’s interesting I started taking a look at taboos cross culturally and there really 4 essential tra- taboos cross culturally which really reveal inherent human values (00:58:00) that we all agree on. The taboo of um murder or killing is uh a taboo cross culturally but there’s a different range on that. For example, among the Eskimos it’s unthinkable to go into tribal uh warfare, or the Inuits as we call them, uh you know, the Inuit people we call Eskimos, but it’s unthinkable. But for them to kill a brother or a sister e- they say oh it’s (00:58:30) too bad that it it came to that. You know, and here if we kill a brother or a sister or a family member, you know, there’s great litigation and and uh but we sanction tribal warfare, you know, through World War I, World War II, the Korean War, the Vietnam War, the Iraqi War and so on. Uh so but still there’s a value uh around killing. Uh so what does that say? We have an inherent value (00:59:00) for the great gift of life in in some way. Uh uh the second is stealing. Cross culturally it’s a taboo to steal. So what does that reveal about um a value? That we carry ethically as a human spirit is to honor the possessions that people have created for on- for themselves or their family. You know, among the Apache, you know, it’s a great coup to steal (00:59:30) from other tribes but if you were to steal from an Apache, their horse, it would be punishable by death, you know, so there are gradations or variations. And then there’s the taboo cross culturally of lying and uh and the lie that’s not tolerated. There are many lies that are tolerated, exaggerations and white lies and withholds are tolerated. But the lie, cross culturally, that’s not tolerated in any culture is the lie that does (01:00:00) irreparable harm to another person’s life and we flirt with

that, with slander or gossip, uh uh in those ways. And then the fourth taboo is incest. Uh which says that we have a an emotional um um value of honoring family and kinship ties, not transgression, transgressing uh there. Uh but again um (01:00:30) uh it’s interesting to see what the inherent values are and we um also cross culturally have what’s called the golden rule, that is found in all cultures, is how how to treat treat each other. Uh so um it’s just interesting that there is the overlay of trying to transmit certain values but there’s a deeper value about instinctive instinctively (01:01:00) within the human spirit. We know the diff- the distinct difference between right or wrong or where we’re really transgressing in an eth- in our ethics or morality. 01:01:22 Angeles Arrien: Yes. Yeah it is. And and and, you know, it’s interesting what happens in an in- the exciting potential that can happen in any initiatory rite is to transcend cultural imprinting and family imprinting into an inherent universal, it’s a portal to an inherent universal (01:01:52) value of morality and ethics. That we call perennial wisdom [that’s] transpor-, you know, transmitted throughout the ages. 01:02:28 Angeles Arrien: Sure. 01:02:31 Angeles Arrien: Yeah. 01:02:42 Angeles Arrien: Yeah. Yeah yeah yeah and that’s natural everywhere. Yeah. 01:02:59 Angeles Arrien: Yeah. Yeah it’s it’s really true. And I also think what’s um uh really uh fascinating is that uh there are 3 markers of of spiritual maturity. And one is uh eventually, you know, I can res- every culture of the world has the edict of honor thy mother or father or family of origin. I may not like my family of origin, I may not honor my family of origin, but the mark of spiritual (01:03:29) maturity coming through an initiatory rite is that I can honor and respect my family of origin, honor, to confer respect, respect in the truest sense is respect hard the willingness to look again. I may not agree with them, I may not like certain things, but I can honor and respect that somehow through my experience with them my own values got clarified, my- uh what (01:03:59) I would do and what I would not do differently got really clarified. The second marker is to um honor and respect my culture of origin. I may not like or agree with my culture of origin, but somehow that primary route allowed me to find more clearly what I valued from my culture of origin and what I didn’t value from my culture of origin so that I could take in what had meaning and (01:04:29) heart for me and what didn’t at all. And then the third is, you know, what was my first spiritual route? You know, maybe I came in and was conditioned through my family being a Catholic, but then I ended up, you know, really exploring Buddhism

or re- Hinduism or Taoism or Confu-,you know, Confucius, you know, but uh I honored that first. I may not agree (01:04:59) with it now or like it but I honored that it allowed me to come into exploring what was my real relationship to faith uh and to discover my own heart and spirituality. Or my own route of faith. Uh so I think that’s, you know, fascinating. And initiation provides that that clarification in those three areas, my cultural route, my family of origin route and my spiritual- my first uh spiritual route. 01:05:56 Angeles Arrien: To consider other possibilities. And you know, does this really fit for me right now or, it’s interesting, there’s always a return. You know, I can- against what I uh you know there’s a normal negation process in the individuation cycle and there’s an abnormal negation. And uh initiatory processes allow for both but there’s always that normal or abnormal negation is (01:06:26) a part of the individuation process. To see what I really value or what I don’t, it’s a process of learning discernment. 01:06:42 Angeles Arrien: Yeah. Normal negation is when I recognize uh that I appreciate that value system that I came from but I want to explore and check it out for myself, whether it’s in alignment with me really or not. And abnormal negation is often what happens in a true individuation process, is I have to go explore totally (01:07:12) the opposite until I reject it, I out and out reject it because, you know, I I don’t like it or it’s somehow done harm or, you know, I’m just individuating and I need my freedom. And eventually after abnormal negation is I c- I come around in a more balanced way but it was the only way, it was my initial fight for freedom. 01:07:40 Angeles Arrien: No no no and we usually choose one or the other, or we combinations of the [BothAnd]. 01:07:52 Angeles Arrien: Yeah yeah. You’re welcome. 01:08:46 Angeles Arrien: Is an initiatory proc- 01:09:18 Angeles Arrien: Yeah well I think in- initiation happens in life naturally and it also happens through conscious intention. And so we can, workshop is a conscious intention of moving into an initiatory experience. And um so I’m always a proponent for the [BothAnd], you know, any way that it works for people. (01:09:48) For some uh life, you know, um people aren’t awake to life’s initiatory processes and need to be more consciously awakened or have a need for that uh experience. Um so I I really support the [BothAnd]. I I think um it’s shortsighted um not to

incorporate, you know, to set up an artificial either/or. 01:10:23 Angeles Arrien: Yeah really really really. And and I think the danger of of over-structuring initiatory rites uh it becomes um it can become an artificial uh ritual. Um and becon- uh can be subjected to dogmatic ways, I think there’s a natural shadow side of that if it’s over-structured. And the shadow side of (01:10:53) of just the organic uh life experience uh people e- uh aren’t conscious. Many are people are sleepwalkers, you know, they’re they’re not aware of a natural initiatory processes in in life unless they have a good family situation or um mentors in their neighborhood or or uh guides like- that naturally show up within community. 01:11:27 Angeles Arrien: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. 01:11:32 Angeles Arrien: But I actually think that, you know, um it’s inherent in the human spirit through the intergenerational um where there are intergenerational communities it happens. Uh this culture is just beginning to learn how to work intergenerationally together. Uh you know, in Asian and African, island people societies, they live (01:12:02) together intergenerationally. And here we separate out age groups rather than it being a natural intergenerational learning process. And we’re just coming into that, uh learning how to work in community together and organizationally together and [true] teaming uh together uh um beyond segregated ageism. 01:12:52 Angeles Arrien: Yeah and I think with Michael Meade’s work, you know, is he fosters communities that are intergenerational. And so th- that’s a natural thing that happens where in life where there’s more intergenerational, more diversity, whether it’s multicultural, intergenerational, interdisciplinary where there are all those crossovers together, there’s more learning together that’s taking place naturally (01:13:22) and people are initiating each other. 01:13:47 Angeles Arrien: Yeah they are. Mentoring, you know, um I think what’s uh happening in the mentoring process, in a real mentoring process where there- you’re both mutually learning from each other actively, that’s an initiatory process. You know, where it’s not a one down uh, you know, my mentee or my (01:14:17) protegee, you know, as, you know, true true mentoring is- masterful mentoring is that we’re equally learning from each other and inspired by each other’s gifts and talents and uh look forward uh to uh learning from each other. And I think it’s so interesting, Margaret Meade uh wrote a book in in 1968 called (01:14:46) “Culture of Commitment” and she predicted, you know, she said that there’s the prefigurative culture where their 3 generations learn and grow from each other. And then there’s the cofigurative culture where you have ageism, you know, and then the fallout of the nuclear family where you’re

learning in small groups or of the same age from each other. But then she talks about the postfigurative culture where the youth teach the elders which we’re (01:15:17) in in the technological ages, we’re learning from youth as much as they’re learning from us uh, you know. Uh and so there’s more equality of that initiatory experience with each other that’s happening naturally. You know, that the elders have the content and the material and the social skills and the face-to-face skills and, and the youth have the tech skills and the connectivity skills (01:15:47) on uh in another way which is invaluable. And it’s a it’s a an- uh co-initiatory process that takes place in what she calls “the postfigurative cultures” which the world is being initiated into at this time. 01:16:17 Angeles Arrien: {Laugh.}Well I, you know, I’m really excited about the time that we’re in because the last time in history where you had uh so much diversity coming together, where cultures could access each other and where different disciplines could ask- uh access each other and different trading, economic trading, was going on and interfaith dialogues was going on, was in in the Renaissance. And I think (01:16:47) what’s happening is a second Renaissance. And- cause we’re consciously living in a time that we know is historical and evolutionary. You know, we’ve never had so much evolutionary change happen in uh such a short time in history. Ever. Uh in the last 50 years. And if- 01:17:11 Angeles Arrien: Oh yeah. Oh yeah the downside. Yeah and yet at the same time, you know, nature through biomimicry, is if we were really learning from nature, is species are returning and also uh that we’re lear- learning more from how to survive uh through the species if we spe- if we take a look. You know, like in just the last (01:17:41) uh twe- uh well actually in the last decade is that the migratory, the migration of birds has gone 35 miles northwest. And so we should all just be me- moving northwest because that’s just in the last decade [to] all of the- following the migration of birds, they’re adapting, they’re adapting. 01:18:10 Angeles Arrien: Yeah to global warming, you know. So uh, and I think that um the other exciting thing is like um um the Martin Foundation where they really work on experiential education, you know, and incl- also including uh rites of passage. Uh but um by John Hunter who um has uh uh (01:18:40) developed this world peace game and his has this book out that’s called “World Peace and other 4th Grade Achievements.” Cause he’s had his fourth graders really solve global warming issues and they’ve been presented presented to the United Nations. They they- he uses the art of war, you know, reads them a passage and says, you know, were- I want you to solve, you know, these issues and- between these different countries and (01:19:10) so on, etcetera. And they solved them, you know, the environmental, the economic, and presented that all to the United Nations. And then this book is called, you know, “World Peace and Other 4th Grade Achievements” and- based on, you know, the art of wer- war, is to, you

know, not create war but if you have to go to war, to do as least harm as possible. And they set up a United Nations model and and, you know, he in- he was involved in totally initiatory (01:19:40) rite in the classroom uh through inquiry and through creative problem solving and through how they could handle uh conflict. And so, it’s an exciting time that we’re living in. You know, but it’s neck to neck, evolution and devolution happening at the same time, but- and that’s where the 4 great initiatory processes of birth, (01:20:10) death, marriage and um initiation are still ritualized in every culture of the world. And there’s a mystery behind that. And I think we’re being initiated also into sacred secularity, is that which rite of passage is is that you’re offering something sacred consciously uh in a secular time that touches the deepest nature of a human being. 01:20:44 Angeles Arrien: Yeah yeah yeah. 01:21:02 Angeles Arrien: But it’s coming and you’re part of that. {Laugh.} And you’re part of that. 01:21:27 Angeles Arrien: Well I think- Yeah. Well I think um youth is initiating themselves. You know, there’s- it’s in our DNA to be uh initiated. It’s in our- in the truest sense of the word initiation means “the capacity to learn something new and to demonstrate to someone else that you’ve learned it.” That’s the definition of initiation. And what we (01:21:57) want to learn is what deeply matters most to us. And in every youth there’s something that deeply matters most to them which is cal- their life calling or their life dream, a deep remembrance of what they want to explore in their own gifts and talents. And that’s why education today is becoming almost irre- irrelevant (01:22:27) in its old form, is uh there’s a deep desire to really engage deeply in life itself. And apprenticeship will return again, you know, uh there are internships and organizations, you know, uh the life skills of building and uh uh electricians and plumbing and, you know, hands on learning uh is is really (01:22:57) uh wanting to be re-engaged again. Uh and… we’re working to get into the best school or consumerism, you know, that children are products, you know, isn’t meaningful. What’s meaningful for youth is can they can they find the way that (01:23:27) would most support their fulfillment and expression of their gifts and talents. You know, and that’s the deepest resource within youth is the incredible energy, vitality, vision, gifts and talents uh of youth garnered in a way that uh takes them out of the shadow expression. You know, (01:23:57) basically um uh finding what matters most. 01:24:21 Angeles Arrien: Well it’s showing up in self-initiation through gangs uh uh is wanting the rites of passage, wanting a challenge, wanting a cer-, you know, gangs have a real code, an honorable code uh for them. Or like the mafia had an honorable kind of code uh but a shadow side uh of that as well. Um and in this day and age when it’s- (01:24:51) the positive aspects of where it’s

chall- uh where it’s channeled is often through sport, often through music, often through uh creative expression, through tech uh at this time. Uh but finding those channels and finding the mentors for that, you know, it’s just like you finding, you know, uh people who are good camera people, you know, and young people. Uh there’s (01:25:21) an initiatory mentoring process that’s going on um for [use your] own film work and they’re drawn to find you uh and to align with somebody who has a lot of experience. And that’s happening naturally uh anyway we can uh through the c- through our gifts and talents. Uh but the deeper initiations that involve um character and (01:25:51) values and um accountability and responsibility come through formalized rites of passage or through formalized rites of passage through graduation or through apprenticeships or uh through that. And if I can’t find a way to express my gifts and talents positively I I will go to the dark side to express those gifts and talents. (01:26:21) And become very clever and resourceful and [my] drug trafficking, very clever and resourceful and my gifts of stealing uh uh very resourceful and clever and uh reporting to the gang leader of of- uh showing how courageous I am and killing someone. Uh and (01:26:51) that’s misdirected energy and it indicates that uh somehow we’re not doing our job as parents uh as guides, somehow we’re not doing our jobs in generating uh meaningful neighborhoods and community, uh the breakdown in family uh as well. And yet what’s really hopeful is, you know, (01:27:21) um youth is waiting later to make commitments in in love and marriage um and really wanting to be responsible in in stewarding a childs life, uh, you know, that’s starting to swing swing back again uh which is very hopeful. 01:27:48 Angeles Arrien: Yeah they’re taking a longer time to make those decisions because they they really know how uh what a responsibility it is and they want to be prepared for that. 01:28:03 Angeles Arrien: Yeah too. 01:28:09 Angeles Arrien: Yeah they’re unemployed or they’re back at home again to make things, ends meet. And… 01:28:22 Angeles Arrien: And that’s just heartbreaking, just heartbreaking. Uh, you know, life just becomes so meaningless. You know, and because they, some people if they don’t make it through a si- the celebrity culture, then they see themselves as a failure or the whole predominance of mean girls and bullying uh that’s done online and offline. Uh you know, it’s uh misdirected energy. 01:29:17 Angeles Arrien: Yeah. Or the incredible enrollment into the army or into the military or the

navy or the air force because that’s uh that’s another initiatory process into manhood and accountability uh, you know, that’s taking an education. {Laugh.} You know. 01:29:59 Angeles Arrien: Yeah. Death, yeah. 01:30:03 Angeles Arrien: Yeah it is. That’s well said. Yeah it really is. It really is. Though I just appreciate very much the work you’re doing. Yeah really. 01:30:17 Angeles Arrien: Oh no no no but, you know, it’s it’s essential work. You know, it’s- it at least puts people a choice and offers another way. A conscious way. 01:30:48 Angeles Arrien: Yeah. 01:30:52 Angeles Arrien: Oh I know. 01:31:13 Angeles Arrien: Yeah, oh I know then then voting for a president. {Laugh.} 01:31:21 Angeles Arrien: Yeah I just think that rite of passage delivers people back into their humanity. And the heart of humanity is remembering to be humane. And to be humane is how we treat each other. And it’s a mark of character or a lack of character. You know, am I a generous person, patient person, kind person, (01:31:51) disciplined person uh a wise person uh a creative person, a generative person? Uh you know, we’re really remembered not for what we did in life, we’re really remembered for our personhood. And it’s interesting since the 50’s that the obituaries have changed in their writing, it all starts with the kind of person that we’re gonna miss, their great sense of humor, (01:32:21) you know their generosity, their kindness, their reliability, their trustworthiness and then, oh by the way at the end, the obituary gets to the served 35 years and made this contribution as of- 01:32:39 Angeles Arrien: Oh yeah yeah. 01:32:41 Angeles Arrien: Yeah they are. There’s- big shift, big shift. Yeah since the late 50’s, early 60’s.

01:32:56 Angeles Arrien: It used to be long obituaries about beginning with your achievements and oh by the way… at the end. And it’s reversed, now it starts more with the quality of person, we’ll miss this about them and then to their achievements. But that, I only know that because I know a good friend who’s an obit obit writer and who’s done a history about the uh change of obituary writing and and that there’s been a shift since the 60’s, early 60’s. 01:33:37 Angeles Arrien: Most people don’t read the read the obits unless they’re worried about seeing their name. {Laugh.} 01:34:17 Angeles Arrien: What an exciting film. Really, really, it’ll be interesting to see how you put this together and it’ll be wonderful to hear from the youth and their experience. Are you gonna include that to? 01:34:29 Angeles Arrien: Oh wonderful. Yeah I can hardly wait. 01:34:47 Angeles Arrien: Yeah well even after uh a weekend and the weeks following, you can see who goes out and who comes back in, at any age that they are, you know. Taking people 16 years old to 87 now on the land for 3 days and 3 nights and you see, it’s marked. I had just a short little film of 20 minutes to see who goes out with their partner, you know, and their conversation about (01:35:17) their intention of going out, and when they come back in it’s, you get to see who who they are, openness and depth and sweetness. It’s just so moving. 01:35:38 Angeles Arrien: Oh yeah yeah yeah. I love Gigi’s work. 01:35:44 Angeles Arrien: Oh good. 01:35:46 Angeles Arrien: Oh good. Oh good. They do great work. Yeah Meredith and Steven’s original work. Yeah. Yes, very important work. 01:36:18 Angeles Arrien: Are essential. 01:36:26

Angeles Arrien: Oh I think it’s an essential for both genders. Uh and um… um… I think that if there isn’t an initiation, an adequate initiation for the male gender, it moves to violence. And if there isn’t an adequate initiation for a female uh uh it moves to victimization. 01:37:33 Angeles Arrien: Yeah and I also think of women are, are not uh well initiated be- besides uh- which we’re starting to see now, uh if they’re not initiated actually into the healthy feminine then they move into imitating the masculine and that also leads to violence. And uh so um… uh it’s underscored, you know, uh (01:38:03) both ways. It’s how how can the healthy feminine rise without imitation of the masculine, and how can the healthy masculine rise without uh- in its truest sense of being able to create safety and protection without violence. And I think both are essential. 01:38:44 Angeles Arrien: Yeah, go to war. Yeah absolutely. 01:39:01 Angeles Arrien: No not at this time because I think both need it equally, at this time. Equally. I think that uh there’s a, there’s a tendency uh… if the rite of passage is really devel- is delivering the masculine into the healthy masculine then they are not made to be like women. (01:39:39) That they embrace because both energies, of the dynamic and magnetic, are within the male gender and within the female gender. And the most, for most women the initiation into the dynamic energy is childbirth cause there is (01:40:01) nothing magnetic about childbirth. And there’s something that happens for women that are initiated into child- uh through childbirth where they have to blend their dynamic and magnetic energies together. And um with the masculine it’s really essentially (01:40:31) that I’m not mother complected and with the masculine it’s very essential that I know how to provide safety and protection and reliability and am trustworthy without moving into the feminine. 01:40:53 Angeles Arrien: Yeah or moving into what were you gonna say? 01:40:58 Angeles Arrien: Or the savage, yeah absolutely. 01:41:06 Angeles Arrien: Protection and and community building, you know, and family protection and and reliability and responsibility and trustworthiness. 01:41:21 Angeles Arrien: Yeah. Yeah the sensi-

01:41:31 Angeles Arrien: Yeah and then that’s- 01:41:39 Angeles Arrien: Yeah yeah yeah. Absolutely. Because a healthy warrior is is, you know, has good boundaries, good limits, accountable, responsible uh and no nonsense. You know, you’re not gonna mess with the healthy masculine. But if I’m in the unhealthy masculine, you know, I won’t be respected and I can be manipulated and seduced and toyed with. 01:42:11 Angeles Arrien: And no sense of boundaries at all. Or really showing up in a responsible way. 01:42:21 Angeles Arrien: Yeah and that’s what- 01:42:24 Angeles Arrien: Yeah really. 01:42:26 Angeles Arrien: Or implodes into depression and despair. And meaninglessness which goes to suicide. It’s just tragic 01:42:38 Angeles Arrien: Or acts out through violence. 01:42:43 Angeles Arrien: Yeah so, I just really deeply respect what you’re doing. 01:43:34 Angeles Arrien: It would be wonderful for you to interview Norman Fischer who wrote about the Odyssey, you know, and uh he’s a Zen… 01:43:46 Angeles Arrien: But the Odyssey, you know, he’s really explained that as a super r- spiritual rite of passage in many ways and it would be really interesting given what Sandy has said about the Odyssey. You know, it would be great to interview him. 01:44:07 Angeles Arrien: Oh no, he would be just, his book is the best book that’s been written on the Odyssey in my opinion.

01:44:17 Angeles Arrien: It would be so great for your rite of passage work to, you know, for the guys to even as preparatory material to… 01:44:29 Camera: Pans down to Angeles hands in her lap 01:44:37 Angeles Arrien: Yeah but he would be, he would be really interesting to interview. 01:44:51 Angeles Arrien: Joan Halifax. Yeah yeah yeah. 01:44:55 Angeles Arrien: Oh yeah, she’d be great. She’s so articulate. 01:45:02 Angeles Arrien: Oh oh oh yeah totally. Yeah totally yeah. It’d be fabulous.