Calgary, Alberta May 14, 1976 Volume 53 - PWNHC | CPSPG Calgary Berger V53.pdfare considering is the...

MACKENZIE VALLEY PIPELINE INQUIRY

IN THE MATTER OF THE APPLICATIONS BY EACH OF

(a) CANADIAN ARCTIC GAS PIPELINE LIMITED FOR ARIGHT-OF-WAY THAT MIGHT BE GRANTED ACROSS

CROWN LANDS WITHIN THE YUKON TERRITORY ANDTHE NORTHWEST TERRITORIES, and

(b) FOOTHILLS PIPE LINES LTD. FOR A RIGHT-OF-WAYTHAT MIGHT BE GRANTED ACROSS CROWN LANDS

WITHIN THE NORTHWEST TERRITORIESFOR THE PURPOSE OF A PROPOSED MACKENZIE VALLEY PIPELINE

and

IN THE MATTER OF THE SOCIAL, ENVIRONMENTALAND ECONOMIC IMPACT REGIONALLY OF THE CONSTRUCTION,OPERATION AND SUBSEQUENT ABANDONMENT OF THE ABOVE

PROPOSED PIPELINE

(Before the Honourable Mr. Justice Berger, Commissioner)

Calgary, AlbertaMay 14, 1976

PROCEEDINGS AT COMMUNITY HEARING

Volume 53

The 2003 electronic version prepared from the original transcripts byAllwest Reporting Ltd.

Vancouver, B.C. V6B 3A7 CanadaPh: 604-683-4774 Fax: 604-683-9378

www.allwestbc.com

APPEARANCES

Mr. Ian G. Scott, Q.C.Mr. Ian Waddell, andMr. Ian Roland for Mackenzie Valley

Pipeline Inquiry

Mr. Pierre Genest, Q.C. andMr. Darryl Carter, for Canadian Arctic

Gas Pipeline Lim-ited;

Mr. Alan Hollingworth andMr. John W. Lutes for Foothills Pipe-

lines Ltd.;

Mr. Russell Anthony andpro. Alastair Lucas for Canadian Arctic

Resources Committee

Mr. Glen Bell, for Northwest Territo-ries

Indian Brotherhood, andMetis Association of theNorthwest Territories.

INDEX PageWITNESSES:

Wayne GETTY 5418Kazua IWAASA 5438Gregory N. MAYER 5442H. Gordon PEARCE 5444Dr. Gary DONOVAN 5455R.O. JONASSON 5464E.E. CUDBY 5470Terry LUSTY 5486Stephen TYLER 5495Miss Deanna GREYEYES 5502Alan CARTER 5511Carl NICKLE 5516Alan WOLFLEG 5536Roy LITTLECHIEF 5540Miss Claudette CROUTEAU 5543Albert IRYE 5546Rev. Glenn WILLMS 5553Ed BURNSTICK 5559Nelson SMALL LEGS 5563Robert BLAIR 5566

INDEX PageEXHIBITS:C-307 Submission by W. Getty 5437C-308 Submission by K. Iwaasa 5441C-309 Submission by Bishop Grandin High School(G.M. Mayer) 5444

C-310 Submission of Calgary Chamber of Commerce (H.G. Pearce) 5455

C-311 Submission by R.O. Jonasson 5469C-312 Submission by E.E. Cudby 5486C-313 Submission by T. Lusty 5495C-314 Submission by S. Tyler & Miss D. Greyeyes 5508

C-315 Submission by A. Carter 5515C-316 Submission by C. Nickle 5534C-317 Submission by Alberta Plura Ass'n 5536C-318 Submission by CUSO 5546C-319 Submission by Rev. G. Wilims 5558

Calgary, AlbertaMay 14, 1976

(PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)THE COMMISSIONER: Well

ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Calgary. The Inquiryis completing its two days of hearings in Calgary todayand before we hear this morning's presentations, it maybe appropriate if I say something about why we arehere.

This Inquiry is about aproposal to build a pipeline to bring natural gas fromthe Arctic to the south and the pipeline is one thatwould be built across our Northern Territories wherefour races of people; white, Indian, Metis. and Inuitlive and where seven different languages are spoken. Isaid yesterday that it isn't just a question of aright-of-way. You'll have to have hundreds of miles ofroads -- access rods -- built over the snow and ice.6,000 workers will be needed to build the pipeline,1200 more to build the gas plants in the MackenzieDelta.

You'll have to double thecapacity of the fleet of tugs and barges on theMackenzie River system. There will be aircraft,airstrips, trucks, machinery and equipment and if webuild a gas pipeline, it will mean enhanced oil and gasexploration and development in the Mackenzie Valley,the Mackenzie Delta and the Beaufort Sea.

The Government of Canada hasmade it plain that the gas pipeline that Arctic Gas and

Allwest Reporting Ltd.Burnaby, B.C. 5410

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Foothills want to build is not to be considered inisolation. They have laid it down that we are toproceed on the assumption that if we build a gaspipeline, then an oil pipeline will follow, so what weare considering is the impact on northern Canada of anenergy corridor bringing gas and oil from the Arctic tothe mid-continent.

Now this Inquiry isn't goingto decide whether a pipeline is to be built. That's amatter for the Government of Canada. The peopleelected to govern our country will make that decision.It's a question of high national policy and those whohave the confidence of Parliament are those who mustdecide.

My task and the task of thisInquiry is to make sure that we understand what theimpact from a social, environmental and economic pointof view will be on the Canadian north if we go aheadwith the pipeline and the energy corridor. My task isto gather the evidence, establish the facts, report tothe government to enable the Government of Canada tomake an informed judgment on this fundamental issue.

So, this Inquiry has beenconsidering at its formal hearings in Yellowknife, eversince March 3, 1975, some 14 or 15 months ago -at ourformal hearings there we have been listening to theexperts from the pipeline companies who've beendiscussing the engineering questions, the constructionquestions, the environmental questions and the Inquiryhas not been content merely to listen to the experts


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from the industry. We have wanted to hear the otherside, that is, from the experts who disagree with theindustry so we have provided funds to the nativeorganizations, the environmental organizations,northern municipalities and northern business so thatthey can be represented with lawyers and experts at thehearings we are holding in Yellowknife.

I think that that is the bestway of getting at the truth, the best way of sortingout these complicated, difficult, but fundamentalquestions of social, environmental and economic impact.

You see, the industry hasspent something like $50 million studying theengineering and construction of the pipeline, reviewingthe environmental considerations. The Government ofCanada has spent something like $15 million on a seriesof reports relating to what the impact of developmentwill mean in the Mackenzie Valley and the MackenzieDelta and the Beaufort Sea. Our universities allacross the country have been studying northernconditions and northern peoples for years.

Now, you can let all of thosereports sit on the shelves in Ottawa, Toronto, Calgaryand in the university libraries or you can bring thepeople who have written those reports to Yellowknife,put them on the witness stand, have them explain theirpoint of view and where others disagree, confront themwith the views of those others and then put the otherswho disagree on the witness stand themselves.

Now that, you may say, is a


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kind of confrontation and it is. It's confrontation ofevidence, a confrontation often of theory, aconfrontation of principle, a confrontation of ideasbut that is the kind of confrontation that will enableus to figure out who knows the most about the north,who is most likely to be right about the impact ofdevelopment on the north.

So, that's what we've beendoing in Yellowknife. In addition to that, we have.taken this Inquiry to virtually all of the communitieswhere the people live in the north. The majority ofthe people who live in the Canadian north are nativepeople, Indian and Metis people who call themselvesDene which is an Indian word meaning "people" and theEskimo people who call themselves the Inuit which is anEskimo word meaning "people".

We've taken this Inquiry tothe villages and settlements where those people live tofind out what they think about the proposal to build apipeline and establish an energy corridor across theland where they have lived for thousands of years.

The Government of Canada,when it established this Inquiry, said that thisInquiry was to do just that, to hear the views of thepeople who live in the Canadian north, the people whoselives will be most affected by a pipeline and an energycorridor if a pipeline is built and an energy corridorestablished.

We have also been concernedabout the environment of the north. In the northern


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Yukon, we have one of the last great herds of caribouin North America. Can we build a pipeline across thenorth coast of the Yukon to bring gas from Prudhoe Bayinto Canada and down the Mackenzie Valley and stillenable the caribou herd to survive?

There are 5,000 white whalesthat are found in the Beaufort Sea and each summerthey come into the warm waters of the MackenzieDelta to have their young. Can we build pipelinesacross the Mackenzie Delta and still enable the whalesto survive?

There are millions of birdsthat come to the Mackenzie Delta in the perimeter ofthe Beaufort Sea each summer to breed and to store upenergy for the long journey to the south. We areexamining the question whether we can develop terms andconditions under which pipelines could be built and thebirds enabled to survive.

These are some of theenvironmental question we're wrestling with and I thinkthey're important questions. Important not only to thepeoples of the north who still in considerable measuredepend upon the land and the sea for their livelihoodand which still forms in considerable measure, part oftheir diet, but important to us as Canadians because wein a sense are the guardians for mankind of thosespecies in the north.

Now, everybody connected withthis Inquiry understands the importance of the workthat we are doing. The two pipeline companies have


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given this Inquiry their full cooperation from itsbeginning. The oil and gas industry has given us theirfull cooperation. The native organizations, theenvironmentals groups, northern municipalities andnorthern business have all cooperated. The Governmentof Canada has supplied to the Inquiry all the studiesand reports that the Inquiry has sought because we areengaged in trying to determine what the impact will beof a large scale frontier project, not after the fact,but before the fact. We are seeking to determine whatthe consequences will be if we go ahead so that theGovernment of Canada, the people that have been electedto make these choices can make an informed choice aboutthe future of the north.

I said before we had been tovirtually all of the communities where the people ofthe north live in the Mackenzie Valley, the MackenzieDelta, on the rim of the Beaufort Sea and the northernYukon. We've heard from over 700 witnesses, people wholive in the north who've spoken to this Inquiry inEnglish, in French, in Loucheux, in Slavey in Dogriband Chipewyan and in Inuktitut and they've told me andthey've been telling you through this Inquiry whattheir life and their own experience have taught themabout the north and the likely impact of a pipeline andenergy corridor.

Our task is to establishconstructive approaches to northern development. Ifwe are to do that, we have an obligation to canvassall of these questions. We've been listening now for


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14 or 15 months to the peoples of the north. I thinkthat southern Canadians have an interest in thisInquiry and have the right to present their views tothis Inquiry because it is our own appetite for oil andgas and our own patterns of energy consumption thathave given rise to proposals to bring oil and gas fromthe Arctic)and the Canadian north is comprised of twoterritories that are under the jurisdiction of theGovernment of Canada elected by all Canadians to governthose territories.

So, with that preamble, I'llsimply tell you that those of you who are to givebriefs this morning will be sworn in or asked to affirmThat is the procedure we have followed in the north andwe think it is worthwhile to do that because it willmean that you will understand that what we are doing isimportant not just to the peoples of the north but toall Canadians.

So Mr. Waddell, would youtell us who we shall hear from first?

MR. WADDELL: Our first brief,Mr. Commissioner, is from Mr. Wayne Getty. Mr. Getty?

WAYNE GETTY sworn;THE WITNESS: Mr.

Commissioner, ladies and gentlemen, I think you findthat the tone and the viewpoint of today's leadoffpresentation will be considerably different than thetone and viewpoint of yesterday's leadoff presentation.

I would like to start byestablishing the basis upon which I am making this


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presentation. The points that I will bring to yourattention are based upon my personal knowledge,understanding, interests and concerns as a privatecitizen who cares about the national character ofCanada as a democratic society.

I represent no group or partywho have any vested interest in the outcome of yourInquiry other than the interest that all Canadiansshould have in participating in a democratic process ofexpressing one's personal concerns and beliefs.

My educational qualificationsare an M.A. in cultural anthropology and an M.Sw. incommunity organization. My work experience has beenthat of a social worker, a teacher and a communitydevelopment worker. For the period from 1967 to 1975,I worked with and for Indian people on the Indianreserves near Rocky Mountain House and at Morley. I ampresently employed as an instructor at Olds College.

To whatever extent myeducation and practical experience haven given me aninsight and an understanding into the socio-culturalproblems dependent upon economic development,especially as it relates to minority cultural groups, Iwant to share with you the knowledge I have gained andthe concerns I now feel.

I want to express myappreciation for the opportunity your honour has givenus southern Canadians to appear before your Inquiry,thereby allowing us to express our concerns and ourinterests in the construction of the Mackenzie Valley


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Pipeline. Some people may well argue that the probablesocial and economic consequences of the proposedconstruction for the people of the north should be ofno concerns to those of us living in the south as wewill not be directly affected. Personally, I cannotsubscribe to such a concept.

I believe very strongly thatin a democratic society and especially one with aJudeae-Christian heritage, we are all our brothers'keepers and what happens to other Canadians regardlessof where they live in Canada, must be of concern;-.toall' of us not only as a humanitarian gesture, but as acornerstone of a truly democratic society.

The character and integrityof a country that's molded by the broad range ofactions, interactions and structures found throughoutthe whole country. No region or area within Canada isan independent entity nor is any particular regionrepresentative of Canada. As a nation, Canada hasencouraged the development of a heterogeneous societyand as Canadians, our strength and pride lies in thevery fact that we have maintained our cultural, socialand economic diversity while forging the bonds thathave drawn us together to form a nation. The veryconcept of independence to create diversity which isthen held together by interdependence seems to bealmost contradictory but it is the working of thisunique system which makes Canada what it is today.

If we treasure what we havemade of this country, then we must nurture this


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delicate balance embodied in these concepts. Thisinterdependence of one region on another does not givea region the right to dominate or to force its needs ordesires on any other region just because it has thestrength or the means to do so. We must recognize theintegrity of all regions and support their right todetermine their own destiny. However, because we are acountry, each region must weigh its rights andresponsibilities towards the other regions within thecountry. This is where the problem of balance arise.At just what point do the rights of the country as awhole override the rights of a particular region?

Unfortunately, there is nosimple solution and as a concerned Canadian, I can onlytrust that this Inquiry, under your leadership will beable to identify this point of balance with respect tothe construction of the proposed pipeline.

The strength of a democraticsociety does not lie in a too often misused andmisunderstood concept of majority rules. Thesignificant implementation of a democracy lies in theability of a society to recognize and to maintain therights of minority groups within that society.

The real challenge of yourInquiry is not in identifying these rights, a job whichyou have done most admirably, but rather in somehowensuring that the rights of minority groups areprotected, thereby demonstrating that democracy aspractised in Canada is a thriving reality and not justan empty platitude. The callous disregard of the


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rights of those with whom one differs can lead to theeventual destruction of one's own rights. If thisoccurs with respect to the construction of a pipeline,then it would be a real tragedy for all Canadians andnot just for those people who live in the north.

One cannot deny the realitythat the outcome of your Inquiry will have an impact onsome of the cherished institutions of our society,thereby directly affecting all Canadians.

The tremendous impact ofeconomic development on socio-cultural patterns asexperience by almost every country in the world is aphenomena that has been closely studies by many socialscientists. All too frequently, the consequences ofso-called development have been destructive anddetrimental to indigenous populations. This kind ofdevelopment may well have positive effects for somepeople, but repeatedly, it has also had negativeeffects for other groups of people.

The idea that developmentmust be balanced between economic and socialconsiderations was clearly pointed out by the CanadianCouncil on Rural Development in their fifth reportwhere they state:

"Economic development and social development areinextricably interwoven. Together they consti-tute one single indivisible development processaimed at serving fundamental human purposes."

Unfortunately, the concept ofa balanced approach has been given only lip service and


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the implementation of development has been weighted tooheavily on the side of economic development.Traditional approaches to development in Canada are areflection of the experiences and knowledge gained inthe industrialized and more urbanized southern corridoracross Canada. What the traditional approach fails torecognize is the fact that our present level ofdevelopment is a product of hundreds of years ofevolutionary development of society. Historicallydevelopment has not had an even impact on economicsocial and cultural institutions in our society at anygiven time.

However, the pace ofevolutionary development in the historical sequence hasbeen such that industrial southern Canadian society hasmaintained a balance between these variousinstitutions, however, sometimes with a need forgovernment to impose a balance upon segments of oursociety.

Reality also show us thatnative people and other disadvantaged groups of peoplehave for a variety of reasons remained outside themainstream of socio-cultural and economic developmentas it has evolved within Canada. They have notparticipated in the process of economic and socialrevolution that have slowly transformed this country.Many native people and communities have not developedthe skills and the values they would need to enablethem to adjust to and to cope with the impact ofdevelopment near or within their communities.


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Government and industry must become committed to themeaningful implementation of innovative programs andpolicies which will allow native people to evolve attheir own pace and with a minimum of social andcultural upheaval.

The Canadian Council on RuralDevelopment, in their recent sixth review suggeststhat:

"Such a new strategy would have to focus on aprocess of indigenous people being involved inidentifying their own needs, interests and po-tential; people developing their own skills, so-cial institutions, economic enterprises and cul-tural pursuits, people learning how to managethese developments, people modifying their valuesystems and social philosophy to incorporatethis process of change into a stable and coher-ent social system."

While I recognize that the north is a unique areawhich will have to develop its own particular means andways of dealing with the problems that arise, I wouldalso feel that much can be learned by looking atdevelopment situations that have occurred in the southto identify the processes and the problems that haveoccurred.

As a result of working withthe Stoney Band and the Big Horn people for a period ofover seven years, I am familiar with the problemscreated by and the eventual effects resulting from theconstruction of the Big Horn Dan on the North


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Saskatchewan River west of Red Deer. By examining thisparticular development, I hope to shed some light onthe kinds of problems being experienced by nativepeoples when they are caught up by the thrust ofdevelopment.

Many Indians do not trustwhite society or its representatives of Federal andProvincial Governments. Many Indian people do notbelieve that the Department of Indian Affairs whom theysee as a trusted of Indian lands and treaty rights actsin the best interests of protecting and preserving therights of native people. This mistrust has arisen as aresult of many situations in which native people haveexperienced the government's promotion of non-Indianinterests at the expense of Indian people and theirrights.

The Big Horn group of StoneyIndians were at the signing of Treaty Number Seven in1877 promised a separate reserve which they were ledto believe would be located in the area of theKootenay Plains. Promoting the interests of theMethodist mission, the government established only onereserve at Morley, thereby enabling the church to moreeffectively carry out its educational and mission workamongst the Indian people. By 1910, the FederalGovernment had acknowledged their responsibility toprovide a reserve to the Big Horn people. Thegovernment had agreed to establish a 23,000 acrereserve and had instructed a surveyor to set out theboundaries. Unfortunately, coal was discovered in the


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area and the railroads became interested in buildingnew lines along the Saskatchewan River valley and intoB.C. The surveyors were sent home and the promisedreserve was conveniently forgotten. Again, theinterests of mining companies and railroads tookprecedence over the rights and interests of the Stoneypeople.

For over thirty years, theFederal Government ignored the continued requests ofthe Big Horn people for land. During the 1940's, workstarted on the possibility of building a dam on theNorth Saskatchewan in the area inhabited by the Stoneypeople. This, combined with the fact that the forestwardens had become concerned about their lack ofcontrol over the free-roaming Big Horn people resultedin the Alberta Government's offering to provide land ona lease basis only so that the Big Horn people could beconfined to a limited area which would not be affectedby the contemplated dam . Without even consulting theband members, the two governments agreed upon the leasearea and the Indians were forced to abandon theircabins, ranches, corrals, garden plots and wererelocated onto this inadequate and unwanted area. Thelast holdout, Norman Abraham who still is alive todayhad a fence built around his cabin by Forestryofficials. They shot his horses and his family wasthreatened and he was generally intimidated until hetoo had to move onto the new reserve.

Once again, the interests ofgovernment and development won at the expense of native


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people. In 1968, the Alberta Provincial Government andCalgary Power started construction on the Big Horn Dam.project. The Stonies were neither informed norconsulted before work was begun even though this darnwas to be located less than three miles from Indianhomes and a newly created lake would flood an areabeing actively used by the Big Horn people for sundances, religious activities, cultural activities,recreational activities, trapping, grazing; hunting,and which contained the marked graves of theirforefathers.

The Stonies, led by ChiefJohn Snow who addressed your Commission yesterday,protested the construction of the darn only to beinformed that the possible negative effects for thewell-being of a small group of Indians could not beallowed to prevent this project in view of the benefitsthat thousand of Albertans would derive from theproject. However, now that the darn is completed, ithas been found that many of the benefits forecasted inthose days are either non-existent or unrealistic.

Much of the rationale used tojustify the need for construction has proved to befallacious.

The Provincial Governmentinformed the Stonies that if the Big Horn people couldprove their claim to the land in the area, then theywould be only too happy to meet any claim obligations.Under the leadership of Chief John Snow, Chief BillMcLean and Chief Frank Powderface of the Stoney people


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undertook a research project to prove their claim toland in the area to be flooded. The research findingswere submitted to the Federal Government in the springof 1972, Finally in the spring of 1974, the FederalGovernment acknowledged the Big Horn land claim andrequested that the Alberta Government make availablethe needed land as provided for under the terms of the1930 Natural Resources Transfer Act.

In the fall of 1974 in spiteof earlier promises by government officials, PremierLougheed refused to meet the Province's legalobligations stating:

"The Government of Alberta cannot give away anyland which it holds as trustee for all Albertansto any group. To do otherwise would violate thetrust Albertans have given that government toprotect the property and rights of Albertans."

Apparently Indians are not citizens of Alberta as theProvincial Government states that if feels it has noobligations to protect Indian rights.

Almost two years later thismatter is still being prepared so that it can be takenbefore the courts for settlement. Once again, Indianpeople are experiencing extreme difficulty in havingtheir rights acknowledged and maintained. These arebut a few examples of what native people interpret asgovernment profundity and duplicity. Is it any wonderthat native people do not trust what the governmentsays or promises to do and that they are requestingaction by the government on land claims before


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development proceeds?When I first met the Big Horn

people in 1967, I was impressed by the strength oftheir social structure and cultural patterns. Thesewere the people who had personal dignity and pride intheir Indian identity. Very few band members receivedwelfare as they were able to earn a living throughtrapping, guiding, hunting, catching wild horses,cutting timber, making handicrafts, working for rancherin the Rocky Mountain House area and using theabundance of nature to supplement their needs.

Any one of these economicactivities were not sufficient in itself to meet theneeds of a given family but taken as a totality, anindividual's economic patterns did enable him to make asatisfactory living for his family.

Family units were strong andhappy with the children being well cared for. Most ofthe homes were kept clean and -- were well kept andclean even though many were overcrowded, heated only bywood cook stoves and water was obtained from communalwells. Sun dances, powwows and other culturalactivities played an important role in the people'slifestyle. Religious activities were an importantfocus for all the families. There is only one familywho on occasion had a problem with alcohol. The BigHorn Stonies were a warm and loving people who sharedwhat they had with their neighbors and they were alwayswilling to help others in times of need.

They took their responsibilities


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seriously and were highly thought of by the whitepeople of Rocky Mountain House. In the short spanof six years, this whole pattern has changed drasticallyfor what I consider to be the worst. Today, allexcept two families and the old-age pensioners areon welfare. Hunting, gathering wild berries andfishing for their personal needs is an almost nonexistentactivity. Nobody runs a trapline on a consistent basis.Only a few people bother to make handicrafts now.Powwows and other cultural activities occur onlyoccasionally. The focus on religious activities is nolonger present.

Almost all the adults nowutilize alcohol and too frequently to excess. At leasteight family units have broken up due to the parent'sfighting and separating. Others have now neglectedtheir families so that their children have had to beapprehended and placed in foster homes. The infantmortality rate has increased as has the incidents ofviolent and natural deaths. Fighting between friendsand families occur all too frequently with the resultthat many band members are now frightened and scared.Warm feelings of friendship and concern for the othermembers of the group are now dying.

Crime and violence which wasvirtually non-existent is now an all too common patternof behavior for some of the younger band members.

The disintegration of stableeconomic social and cultural patterns have beenwidespread and the Big Horn people are now a frustrated,


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apathetic and bitter group of individuals. Why has thisoccurred? Some people have argued that change isinevitable for a semi-isolated group as were the Big Hornpeople Change would have occurred whether the dam hadbeen built or not. I would agree that change would haveoccurred and in fact has already occurred within thereserve. However, the important aspect to recognize isthat the Big Horn people have been able to stay on top ofthe changes up until 1969, making sure that changes wereselective and not disruptive to their socio-economicpatterns.

Furthermore, even with thesudden impact and rapid change brought about by the BigHorn Dam project, the negative consequences anddetrimental changes could have been minimized if onlythe governments involved had been sensitive to theproblems and needs being created for the Big HornIndian Band. In briefs presented to the ProvincialGovernment in March of 1969, March of 1970 and April of1972, Chief John Snow warned the government about thepossible negative consequences that could arise as aresult of the development and he asked the governmentfor their cooperation and assistance in preventingthese problems. Copies of these briefs were also givento the Federal Government and similarly they too failedto respond in any meaningful way other than theprovision of a grant to enable the Stonies to researchtheir land claims.

Both levels of governmenthave chosen to ignore Chief Snow's requests and to date


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have done absolutely nothing to alleviate the problem,using pending land claim; as their excuse forinactivity. In fact, the Provincial Government duringthis period passed new legislation which served only toincrease the problems being faced by the Big Hornpeople.

The governments have demonstratedtheir concern for defining their legal responsibility whileat the same time they have demonstrated their total lack ofconcern for meeting their legal and moral responsibilitiestowards the Big Horn people.

The many irresponsibleactions or lack of actions by government with referenceto the Big Horn dam can be well documented as follows:I have a number of things; I've been given a note thatI should try to finish off in a hurry and I still havea few more pages. Maybe I'll quickly just go over someof these.

The first one is traplineswere flooded and no compensation or alternativetraplines were offered to the people. Graves werebulldozed and lost before the Stoney Indians wereable to prevent their destruction. The governmentagreed to relocate the graves, however, when -- and theStonies agreed to certain land being provided, andinitially the government had agreed that the landwould be given the status of an Indian reserve.However when it came to turn over title to theland, the government refused to give it the status ofan Indian reserve and it was given to the Stonies with


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a caveat imposed upon the title.The detrimental effects of

the increased development activity in the area iswell documented and gain was forced back into moreremote areas. Traplines were destroyed. Huntingareas were destroyed. The business that the Indianpeople had built up in terms of guiding andoutfitting was destroyed because the game was justno longer available for them to carry on thateconomic activity.

The government passedlegislation which restricted the Stoneys ability tokill bears and cougars. Also they passed legislationwhich protected wild horse herds. Both of these thingswere things which the Stonies had been dependent uponand it took away another aspect of their economic baseand again, no compensation or assistance was providedto them when this was done.

There are Stonies who askedfor a grazing lease to replace the traditionalgrazing areas and the Provincial Cabinet Ministersat first promised they would provide a grazing leasebut then later, in response to pressure brought byForestry officials in the name of proper landmanagement, the government refused to provide theagreed upon lease.

I'd like to read just onepoint because I think it's important. Chief Snowpointed out to the government that in past native peoplehad not been given the opportunity to participate in and


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to benefit from developments that occurred within theareas in which native people live. He asked thegovernment to provide the Big Horn people with theopportunity to develop their recreational serviceand business opportunities that would be createdwithin the development area. Instead the governmenthas assisted an outside non-Indian to come into thearea and to develop a motel, gas station, restaurant,camp ground and riding stable complex. Once again,the Indian's economic base was destroyed and theywere not even given the opportunity to create aneconomic base. Instead, this opportunity was given towhite man.

The Stonies asked fortraining so that they could get jobs on the completeddam Neither the government nor Calgary Power wouldprovide any kind of assistance or training to thepeople and now none of them are working on thecompleted dam project. They asked for assistance inhelping band members adjust to the social and culturalchanges. The only response has been the increasedvisitation to the reserve by police and child careworkers in response to the problems that have arised.

Chief Snow asked for alogging permit so that his people could cut timber offthe reserve as there is no more timber within thereserve up there. Initially his request was ignored.He told his people to go and cut the timber anyway.They cut it and then the saw mills would not buy it.The government told them they couldn't buy so that


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timber two years later is still sitting out in theforest rotting and the Stonies were informed by thegovernment eventually that there was not cutting areasavailable for them in the area, in the area outside thereserve because all those areas had been given to thelarge lumber companies in long-term leases.

The Stonies presented theirland claim and indicated that part of the area theywere requesting as a reserve was to include CrescentFalls on the Big Horn River. The Stonies pointed outthat they wanted this particular area because it hadthe potential for economic development as a commercialrecreation area, thereby providing new jobs for the BigHorn people. However, within a few months, signsappeared at Crescent Falls declaring that it was aProvincial Park recreation area. Since that time, thegovernment has proceeded to develop Crescent Falls inwhat one can only interpret as a blatant attempt toprevent the Stonies from acquiring this area as part oftheir treaty land entitlement.

If the preceding are examplesof responsible government action, one can readilyunderstand why native people are alienated from ourpolitical system. The Stoney experience hasdemonstrated that government is not responsive tonative needs, interests and rights once the reality ofdevelopment has taken place. If native people are toprotect their rights, then it would appear they must doso before the development occurs.

I have a section in here


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which I raise a number of question which I think needto be asked but unfortunately, I've been told I mustconclude so I would like to just read my concludingcomments here.

In ending this presentation,I want to make a comment regarding Indian leadership.Most of our native leaders have attempted to follow aresponsible attitude in negotiating issues and conflictwith the government. However, as government fails torespond in meaningful ways to legitimate complaints,then the band members grow frustrated and restless,putting pressure on their leaders to do something.Government insensitivity and stupidity is destroyingmoderate leadership either by their being forced tobecome militant or by their being replaced by newmilitant leaders.

Younger band members areeducated, knowledgeable and concerned about what willhappen to them and their families. Many Indian peopleare no longer prepared to do nothing while their future,their social system, their history and their land isdestroyed by a dominant white society. There is a greatpotential for violence within Indian communities.

A lot of Indian people arelooking towards this Inquiry as their last hope forjustice. Once individuals have lost hope, then theyhave reached a position where they feel they havenothing more to lose by resorting to violence as onecannot take away something from someone who feels theyhave nothing.


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Si Kahn, an organizer who hasworked in a number of poor communities during the pasttwo decades states:

"In many poor communities the most effectivepower tactic has proved to be violence."

To state this is not to advocate violence as a means.The fact is however that violence is seen today bylarge numbers of the poor as the only possiblealternative.

Poor people have tried allthe other alternatives without success and as aconsequence they have become increasingly willing totry violence as a last resort. The only real answer toviolence is to prove that the other alternatives canget poor people some place to provide the resourcesthrough which poor people can achieve economic equalitythrough nonviolent means.

Thank you for listening tothis brief and I turn over a copy of this brief to yourInquiry and I will include a copy of my M.Sw, thesisentitled: "The Effects of Citizen Participation, aLesson in Government Perfidy and Indian Frustration"This is a detailed case history of the interactionbetween the Stoney Band and the government with respectto the construction of the Big Horn dam and it can beused by your Inquiry as a resource if-you want moredetails about the information I have presented in thisbrief.

Thank you.(SUBMISSION BY WAYNE E. A. GETTY MARKED EXHIBIT #C-307)


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(WITNESS ASIDE)MR. WADDELL: Mr.

Commissioner I am changing the order somewhat on thelist and call next Mr. Kazuo Iwaasa please. I believethat Mr. Iwaasa spells his last name I-w-a-a-s-a. Mr.Iwaasa?

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes sir.KAZUO 1WAASA sworn;THE WITNESS: Mr.

Commissioner, I thank you far this opportunity to beheard. I speak as a concerned citizen. I was promptedto appear before you today because of your statement,"what happens in the north will tell us what kind ofpeople we are". I would like to begin with a few linesof poetry by T. S. Eliot. It is a religious poem buthaving sworn on the Bible, I think it is not out oforder for me to do so.

"Oh weariness of men who turn from God to theyour grandeur of your mind the glory of your ac-tionTo arts and inventions and daring enterprisesTo the schemes of human greatness thoroughlydiscredited Binding the earth and the water toyour serviceExploiting the seas and developing the mountainsDividing the stars into common and preferredEngaged in devising a perfect refrigeratorEngaged in working out a rational moralityEngaged in printing as many books as possiblePlotting of happiness and flinging empty bot-


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tles.Where is the life we have lost in living?Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge?Where is the knowledge we have lost in informa-tionWhere is the information we have lost in data?Where is the data we have lost in profit?"

The last two lines are myown. I exercise poetic license to make the poem fitthe context of this hearing and if I may be permitted,I would like to make it a reply to some of the thingsMayor Sykes said yesterday but this is by the way.

I have a story about ChickenLittle. This Chicken Little is not the bird that wentinto a flap about the sky falling on its head, Ratherthis Chicken Little falls from the sky as a monstrousvisitor from outer space. It is found by the roadsideas a harmless looking glob of pulsating material thatkeeps growing and growing.

What is first a curiositycomes an object of fear with the discovery that ChickenLittle is indestructible. Fire, chemicals bullets orbombs, nothing phases Chicken Little because it feedson pure energy. The more it is attacked, the more itgrows grows. Before long, half North America isenveloped.

Scientists calculate thatwithin the decade, the whole world would be consumed.What is to be done? The ending in the original storyis so preposterous that I will not disclose it to you


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but I think the story poses a problem that is facing ustoday.

Kenneth E. Boulding, in his"Economics as a Science", makes this observation that

"... growth at a constant rate cannot go onforever or even for very long. Otherwise, therewould soon be only one thing in the universe."

I submit that Boulding and Chicken Little both show thelogical outcome of uncontrolled growth and overconcentrated power. Our undue trust in the economiesof scale as it is known - economies of scale andtechnological rationalization have made us all over-dependent on big institutions foremost of which is ourtransnational corporations. The aggregate power of thetransnationals dominate practically every enterprise weundertake these days. So any deliberation that doesnot take this fact into account is bound to miss themark.

The Bryce Commission onForeign Ownership should give us a better picture ofhow Canada is affected by the transnationals but thereal context of our concern should he worldwide and weshould not be so self-centred that we just dwell uponourselves.

Central to the UnitedNations' discussion on the new international economicorder which is now going on in Nairobi right thismoment is the place of the transnationals in the schemeof things. The forthcoming Habitat Conference willhave to deal with the same problem and our Price and


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Wage Control Act is probably a good example of how notto go about the business.

My personal fear is that theChicken Little factor is being too lightly regarded byour government in our present deliberation as well asin others.

With consideration to theforegoing, I respectfully suggest that we make hasteslowly, a moratorium is not out of order.2. That we honor the rights of the native people inevery possible way.3. That we develop alternate sources of energy.4. That we consider the welfare of the rest of theworld by supporting such proposals as the newInternational Economic Order.5. Lastly, that we make feasible equal timeadvertising to counter the trend of pamper yourselfconsumerism.

I consider my last suggestionfundamental in that it calls into question our wastefulway of life, which compels us to devour our resourcesbeyond prudence.

Thank you again for theprivilege of taking part in this rare exercise offinding out what kind of people we are.

Thank you.(SUBMISSION OF KAZUO IWSA, MARKED AS EXHIBIT C-308)

(APPLAUSE)(WITNESS ASIDE)MR. WADDELL: Mr.


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Commissioner I'd like to tell you that we here today inthe hearings, students from St. Anthony's School atDrumheller with their teacher Mr. Sam Grandy. Thestudents are applauding themselves.

THE COMMISSIONER: I thoughtthey were applauding their teacher.

MR. WADDELL: Apropos tothat, Mr. Commissioner, I'm going to go again out oforder on our list and ask that we hear now Gregory M.Mayer who is from a Bishop Grandin -- that's G-r-a-n-d-i-n, Bishop Grandin High School biology class.

GREGORY M MAYER sworn;THE WITNESS: Mr. Berger.I represent a group of

concerned high school students from Bishop Grandin HighSchool here in Calgary. As Canadians, we stronglyprotest the proposed Mackenzie Valley Pipeline project.The people of Canada should be first and foremost inthe hearts and minds of the Canadian Government.

The general well-being of theland and the people should far exceed the prodding ofgreedy leaders, the haunting of a phony energy crisisand the glory seeking of oil companies.

The northern natives existand have existed for a thousand years in a very fragilesocio-economic system. They share a day-to-day simpleway of life. The rapid influx of construction,construction workers and their influences from thesouth would reek havoc among their lifestyle. The jobscreated and take by the northern people would be.


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short-term. Few satisfying careers would remain afterthe psychological and social damage has been done. Thenortherners would be reluctant to return to theirancestral way of life if it still existed after the bigmoney and booming business.

Their taste of the southernways will have left them bitter, distraught andbetrayed. The robbing, alienation and destruction ofour northern natives is the most ridiculous move theCanadian Government could make.

If the proposed pipeline isto be profitable, it will likely be a combined effort.Both Governments of Canada and the United States aswell as oil companies will have a hand in what they cal"the development of the north". We refer to thedestruction and polluting of the environment asdesecration and label the infiltration of crime and thedemoralization of a people as decadence. To transportthis sickness of our southern society to our northernfrontier would be an inconsiderate and blunderousgesture.

The United States announcedthat a healthy and clean environment was a luxury thatthey could little afford. We as Canadians must realizethat our northern frontier, with its people, splendorand beauty is priceless. To rape and plunder ournorthern mother earth would be criminal.

We now realize that our oiland gas supplies are finite. The rejection of theproposal would encourage the prompt conservation of


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existing petroleum energy and also promote the rapiddevelopment of alternate energy sources. The finaldecision rests with our government. We ask them tolisten and hear what the people say. Leave ournorthern frontier free and easy.

Thank you for listening.(APPLAUSE)THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you

very much.(SUBMISSION OF BISHOP GRANDIN HIGH SCHOOL MARKED ASEXHIBIT # C309) (WITNESS ASIDE)

MR. WADDELL: Mr.Commissioner I'm going to call upon now Mr. H. CordonPearce who's the vice-president of the Calgary Chamberof Commerce. It's Mr. Pearce.

H. GORDON PEARCE, sworn;THE WITNESS: Justice Berger,

my name is Gordon Pearce as indicated by the previousgentleman. I appear before you in my capacity as vice-president of the Calgary Chamber of Commerce. Onbehalf of the Calgary Chamber I would like to thank youfor giving our organization an opportunity to appearbefore you.

The Calgary Chamber ofCommerce is a 2700 member body of businesses andprofessional men and women in the Calgary area.Indirectly, it is the voice for some 55,000 Calgarycitizens employed by the Chamber membership.

It is our concern Mr.Commissioner that in spite of the long and important


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association of the oil and gas industry with this city,most Calgarians are not aware of the significance ofthe current Mackenzie Valley Pipeline deliberation nowbefore the National Energy Board and before thisInquiry, This lack of awareness must be even greater inother regions of our country where the oil and gasindustry is not directly involved.

Most Canadians probably viewthe public pipeline debate in terms of a "will aMackenzie Valley Pipeline be built and if so, underwhat conditions?" Canadians should, however addressthemselves to the fundamental issue, "will Arcticreserves be developed and available in time to meetgenerally predicted shortages?".

Media coverage has beenextensive but much of the reported testimony before theN.E.B. is difficult for the general public to fullyunderstand and the Chamber is concerned that thenorthern hearings before this Inquiry may be viewed bythe public as simply a fight between the oil and gasoperators and northern residents. This is not theChamber's view however.

We support your statedconcern for adequate time and opportunity to hear theviewpoints of Canadians particularly those living inthe north in order to properly assess the regionalimpacts of a Mackenzie Valley Pipeline.

Our concern is the impact onall Canadians, including northerners. If Canada tenyears from now is faced enormous purchases of foreign


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oil to offset oil and gas shortages, the economicimpact will he felt by all Canadians, includingnorthern residents who are dependent on Canadianmanufacturers and distributors for a wide range ofconsumer goods including food, clothing and essentialhard goods.

It is from this viewpointtherefore that we felt that the Chamber should appearbefore this Inquiry and speak to the needs of themillions of Canadian who have a critical interest inthe expeditious consideration of and practicalsolutions to the many issues and uncertainties relatedto the construction and operation of the MackenzieValley natural gas pipeline.

Effect on Canada of predictedoil and gas shortages. It has been established by theNational Energy Board that, based on present supply anddemand projections, Canada soon will be facing anatural gas shortage if supplies from the westernprovinces are not supplemented. If this situation isallowed to occur, Canadians will feel the effect inseveral ways.

Canada is a country where theconsequence of a shortage of energy would be far moreserious than a matter of inconvenience and personaldiscomfort. As we all know, Canada is a large countrywith a relatively small and unevenly distributedpopulation. We need fuel for the transportation ofpeople, raw materials and finished products.Furthermore, because of the seasonal harshness of the


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Canadian climate, Canadians need oil and gas as fuel inorder to survive.

At work or at home, Canadiansare not equipped to withstand prolonged fuel shortagesand we do not have the capability to quickly convert toan alternative energy source even if such wereavailable.

Additionally, without thesecurity of domestic oil and gas supplies, Canada willhave no means of holding down fuel costs that are animportant cost element in products and materialsproduced for export markets. Loss of ability tocompete in world export markets would mean increasedunemployment and higher consumer prices.

The situation with respect toanticipated oil and gas shortages was summarizedrecently by the Honorable Alastair Gillespie, Ministerof Energy, Mines and Resources:

"Canada today, like the U.S., is a net importerof oil. Just two years ago, we were a net ex-ported. Natural gas prospects are almost asbleak. Spot shortages are predicted startinglate in this decade. By early in the 1980's agap will appear between domestic demand and con-ventional gas supplies so in terms of easily ac-cessible oil and gas, our best years are obvi-ously behind us. We're turning now, as youknow, to the Arctic and offshore, our frontierareas."

We believe sufficient has


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been said about these forecasted needs, but that notenough has been said to the Canadian public about theimpact on our country if this shortfall is permitted tooccur and continue.The United States, England and Italy are examples ofcountries which are significantly or totally dependenton foreign oil imports and which were dealt severeeconomic blows as a result of oil embargoes.

The development of Arctic oiland gas reserves offers Canadians the choice of energyindependence or of being at the mercy of producingcountries for supplies on whatever terms they maydictate for internal economic or political reasons. Itshould be clear to everyone that alternative energysources will not provide a solution to oil and gasshortages in the early 1980's. The time will come nodoubt, when large-scale use of solar energy, tidalpower, coal and nuclear plants will be acceptable andeconomical but within the time period we are concernedwith, the cost and lack of technology are prohibitingfactors. Therefore, the choice is clear, developArctic oil and gas reserves or buy increasing volumesof foreign crude.

Consider the effect ofincreasing dependency on foreign imports even ifoffshore crude prices should remain at current levels.By 1985, the value of oil imports necessary to offsetdomestic shortages of oil and gas will be about $7billion with a total value over the ten year period ofabout 40 billion. This is a staggering amount and its


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affect on consumer prices through balance of tradedeficits will be felt by all Canadians regardless ofwhere they live.

Regional impact. The Chambersupports the position taken by the Federal Governmentof having established this Commission to consider theconcerns and opinions of northerners on a MackenzieValley Pipeline. The development of Arctic reserveswill have and affect on the people of the north and nodoubt individual northerners or representative groupsalready have expressed legitimate concerns. We allrealize however Mr. Commissioner that there is alwayssome cost to any kind of development. IN the case of aMackenzie Valley Pipeline, we hope the cost associatedwith the development of delta reserves can beminimized.

We must recognize that all 23million people in Canada will be seriously affected ifno compromise can be reached between regional andnational interests.

Environmental impact. Weaccept the statements of experts on the Arcticenvironment that the ecology of this region isdifferent. It is unlike the rest of Canada. Webelieve that your Commission and the FederalGovernment, through the National Energy Board andappropriate departments should satisfy yourselves thatthe oil and gas industry has the experience, capabilityand corporate responsibility to conduct its operationsin a manner that will permit the development of


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northern hydrocarbon reserves with minimalenvironmental damage.

We recognize that theenvironment will be modified. We must however achievea proper balance between environmental change and theoverall economic advantages.

Economic impact. We believethat northerners directly affected by the constructionand operation of a Mackenzie Valley Pipeline should beconcerned about the economic impact of both thepipeline and related development facilities in thedelta. We feel that individual northerners must beable to participate in opportunities generated by theproject. We believe that permanent and temporary jobopportunities must be offered to all northerners andthat assistance should be provided in order for themto train and qualify for skilled and semi-skilledjobs.

The job opportunities fromthe pipeline project and the related developmentactivities need not prevent those northerners nowengaged in fishing, hunting and trapping activities ona full or part-time basis from continuing to do so,Instead, the increased number of full and temporary jobopportunities will enable many northerners to choosetheir means of earning income. They will have thechoice of full employment, full-time employment, livingoff the land or some combination in between.

It is our understanding thatthe exploration and producing companies and both


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pipeline applicants are committed to provide employmentfor those northerners who want to work on theseprojects. We endorse this commitment as beingfundamental to northern participation.

To date, the oil and gasindustry has spent over $500 million in exploration inthe delta and Beaufort Sea area -- risk dollars spentwith the knowledge that the reserves soon would beneeded by Canada and under the reasonable assumptionthat necessary approvals would be granted. Oil and gasactivity in the north has provided considerableemployment for northerners. In the year ending April30th, 1975, 761 northern residents were employed by theindustry for varying lengths of time. The number ofjobs will increase substantially with approval toconstruct and operate the pipeline.

Postponement or lengthy delayin pipeline approvals for whatever reasons will forcethe oil and gas operators to severely reduce or halttheir activities. For example, if a two yearmoratorium were imposed on the start of construction,the overall delay in start-up could be in the order ofeight years. If such were to occur, all of Canadawould suffer. It also would mean fewer jobs being heldby northerners and less opportunities of permanent andtemporary work that the northerners may choose from,depending on the lifestyle they wish to follow.

We should also remindourselves the delay will be mean escalated cost whichwill be passed on to the consumer. A point could be


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reached when the project would be cancelled because ofhaving become economically unsound. That would betragic for all Canadians and possibly an unanticipatedeconomic blow to the native people of the north whoexpect to share in revenues from resource development.

The pipeline is essential tohydrocarbon development. Without it there will beneither gas nor revenues to share.

Social impact. We believethat considerations should be given to regionalsocial impact of the construction and operation of aMackenzie Valley Pipeline and related developmentfacilities. There will be social impact of course butwe believe there will be positive values that will helpthe Inuit, Indian and Metis adjust to the impact ofmany other social forces, some new, some longestablished.

Cultural integration in thedelta has been a continuing process for over a hundredyears; the visit of the early whalers, the introductionof the gun, early establishment of churches andschools, government programs of housing, health careand education, and modern transportation in the form ofsnowmobiles and aircraft. The process is continuingwith a daily window on the world, televised viasatellite and before long a highway that will link thedelta with southern tourists.

We certainly do not suggestthat northerners should be denied any socialadvancements or programs available to other Canadians.


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Instead we believe they should have the economicopportunities that will enable them to participate in achanged society on an equal basis with other Canadians.

We believe Mr. Commissioner,that the individual economic opportunities of apipeline and of the development that will follow foryears to come will assist the northerners to adjust tothe social changes that have taken place.

Abandonment. Finally, may werefer to the Commission's terms of reference inparticular to the suggested consideration of theregional impact of the abandonment of a Mackenzie ValleyPipeline. Not everyone realizes Mr. Commissioner, thata pipeline of this magnitude, built to service a highpotential natural gas area such as the Mackenzie Deltaand the Beaufort Sea would not go into operation oneyear and cease operations 20, 25 or even 30 years later.Pipeline approval will he the key to more exploration,more development and more job opportunities.

Exploration in the delta nowis at a point that properly may be called anopportunity threshold, a situation that has beenexperienced in dozens of areas around the world. Theformula is basically the same. First, substantial riskdollars are spent by the oil industry in an area thathas good potential but as yet is unexplored. Thenafter many years, the results may be discouraging as inthe case of Canada's west coast offshore area or may beencouraging as in the case of the Mackenzie Delta.

Where the results were


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encouraging and a transportation system develops, theindustry moves into a second phase of activity. Provedreserves are developed and produced. The assuredtransportation system provides economic motivation fora new round of exploration, which adds more reservesand further development activities. The wideningcircle of exploration and development work which stemsfrom a transportation system creates a diverse range ofcontract opportunities for the industry's service andsupply and new opportunities for the residents.

This second phase of activitycreates not only more jobs, but a more diverse range ofjob opportunities for which local residents can betrained and qualified. A few such jobs would bebattery operator, gas plant operator, welder, mechanic,various clerical positions, carpenters, painters,drivers and so on.

This ripple effect will alsoreach the supplier and local distributor of consumergoods and will help stabilize the regional economy.This is what happened in Alberta in the past twentyyears or so. In the 1950's major pipelines linkedAlberta's proved reserves to distant markets andgenerated the revenues for companies to reinvest in thesecond phase of exploration and development. More jobswere created with the growing of existing companies andthe formation of new companies.

Today, in the mid- 70s wehear no talk of abandoning these pipeline systems. Oiland gas activities are continuing in this province,


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providing employment for thousands of people.Albertans have benefited and so have allCanadians.

It is reasonable to assume thatthe Alberta experience in terms of continuing social andeconomic benefits may be repeated in the north.

Thank you, Mr. Commissioner.THE COMMISSIONER: Mr.

Pearce, let me first of all thank you for thatexposition of economic impact because the point youmade so forcefully is one that we should bear in mindthat in which I alluded to in my opening remarks thatif you do develop a pipeline and energy corridor, thatwill in itself create greater exploration anddevelopment activity in the industry in the delta andthe Beaufort Sea and throughout the valley.

Don't comment on this if youdon't wish to, but has the Chamber of Commerce takenany position regarding which of the two pipelineproposals ought to be --

A Not to my knowledge sir.THE COMMISSIONER: All right.

Well, thank you again sir.A Thank you. (APPLAUSE)

(SUBMISSION OF THE CALGARY CHAMBER OF COMMERCE MARKEDAS EXHIBIT # C-310)

(WITNESS ASIDE)MR. WADDELL: Mr. Commissioner,

I'm going to call next upon a brief from the CalgaryBranch of the Committee for an Independent Canada and the


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person giving the brief is Dr. Gary Donovan.DR. GARY DONOVAN sworn;THE WITNESS: Mr. Commissioner,

ladies and gentlemen, I would like to commend you firstof all and our government for instituting thisCommission. I think that in fact, the results of thisstudy and this Inquiry will be very important for Canada;important in many ways because for the first time inCalgary we hear some of the words about the Indians inthe north, the Inuit in the north and the Metis.

Canada is a country of regionsbut it's a country that doesn't know itself very welland is not aware of its regions or of the diversity ofthe institutions within the various regions.

The Committee for anIndependent Canada has been conducting over the pastyear a major study on regionalism in Canada and theyare carrying out even the next month in Winnipeg -continuing to carry out their study and theirdiscussions on regionalism. I think that this studyand these ideas will have great impact in makingCanadians aware of what we are as a nation and I thankyou for the beginning words of your talk.

I am representing theCommittee for an Independent Canada, the CalgaryBranch. Many of the points that I would have liked tomake have already been made and I will submit some ofthem in a written brief, but I do not wish to take thetime of the audience to repeat them all here.

Many people have talked about


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the environmental issues and they have spoken withgreat eloquence on this. They have spoken of thedanger that Canadian gas will in fact not be used forCanada but it be exported to the United States directlywithout stopping here at all. I do not care to getinto that problem.

They have also discussed atlength the claims of the Inuit and the Indians in thenorth. I simply would make one point that has not beenmade. In the 16th century, the Spanish Governmentasked the leading jurist of the time for an opinion.The problem that they asked him to discuss was whetherthe Spaniards of the time having what they consideredto be an advanced society and a more civilized societybased on Christian principles, whether, given that factand given the fact that the Indians and the people ofSouth America were pagans and uncivilized, whether theSpanish Government then had the right to take overtheir lands without compensation.

The jurist, after a greatdeal of difficulty and consideration put forth his viewthat in no could that happen. That in fact, the peoplewho lived on the land owned the land and had the claimto it and that you could only take over that land bymaking a proper settlement with them. I simply referthis opinion to you and request that when we make thissettlement, that we agree with the Inuit that theirclaims must be met because if the Spanish Government ofthe 16th century can consider that that was important,I think the Canadian Government of 1976 should consider


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the same. (APPLAUSE)THE COMMISSIONER: Was the

opinion heeded by the Spanish Government?A No.Q Not altogether, is that --.A Partly. From a legal

point of view, it was because from a legal point ofview what they did was say, "We will give you twodollars for your land, including the gold that is onit" and they took it that way but legally, there is, infact a document which shows that they heeded thejudgment of their jurist. I hope that we will heed itin a moral way and not just in a legal way.

Nor do I wish to say verymuch about the difficulties that this development willpose for the various societies in the north. Thesehave been documented and the first speaker today wasextremely explicit and profound and I think that thestudy that he has carried out will be of greatsignificance to us in the north and I think we shouldheed that. I do not care to add any more to that.

I simply wish however tomention two points. Number one. The Mackenzie ValleyPipeline cannot be considered in a vacuum.. We are notconsidering only a Mackenzie Valley Pipeline. Thereare I think three or four alternatives.

The largest reserves ofnatural gas in Canada in the north actually have beenproven to be at the present moment in the Arcticislands. If we build a Mackenzie Valley Pipeline, it


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means that we will have had to raise an amount ofcapital and go through an economic exercise that Ithink will preclude us for a long time to come, perhapsfor a number of years, that we cannot name, everbuilding a pipeline from the polar gas regions.Therefore, in fact, if we rush into this proposalsimply because the United States is very short of gasbecause we at the moment are not short of gas, if werush into this proposal, it seems to me that we aresaying to ourselves that we cannot and will not build apipeline for the polar gas area.

Secondly, it seems to me thatwe must consider other alternatives of transportationif the United States requires gas and I believe theydo) and since they are good neighbors of ours, andsince we believe that they are good neighbors and wewish to be good neighbors in return and I say that as amember of the Committee for an Independent Canada whohas always taken that stand, they are partners of ours-- perhaps the alternative is to have them build apipeline down the Alaska Highway that will not in factuse Canadian gas to cease exporting our own gas to theUnited States, to conserve our supplies, to cease usingextremely large cars and leaving our lights on allnight and in fact, to conserve the energy that we dohave to delay building a pipeline and to build apipeline from the polar gas regions when we need it.

Those are the alternativesand I do not think that we must make our decision withrespect to the Mackenzie Valley Pipeline without having


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carefully considered all of the other alternatives andthe implications.

However, the main thrust ofmy presentation today which will be very short indeedbe will with respect to the social costs involved andthat will be the social cost for the southern part ofCanada. We will have moral costs if we in fact imposeour will upon the Inuit peoples and the peoples of thenorth simply to satisfy our desires for energy and ourdesires for energy not to develop our industries butsimply so that each one of us can have two or threecars and so that we can drive our motorcycles, oursnowmobiles and our cars over very large areas and Idon't think that the major use of our energy is in factfor industry at all. It is for luxury items that wecould well do without if we instituted some type ofconservation program at this time.

These social costs would bemoral first for us but there's a second social costthat has not been mentioned by anyone to my knowledge.With the experience of building the Alaska pipeline,the United States has discovered that the state ofAlaska is practically controlled by elements of thesociety which cause an immense about of crime. Thereis in fact a study which was a major study has beendone by Mike Goodman and William Endicott and which wasreported on in the "Calgary Herald" December 15th andin which it has shown that when large amounts of money,great amounts of money had to be used in Alaska in avery short time under severe climatic conditions that


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the companies were in no position whatsoever to preventpeople from taking advantage of the large amounts ofmaterial that were pouring in. They could not riskalienating any of the workers at all. They could notrisk having them go on strike. Therefore, they wereprepared to turn a blind eye and allow the peopleworking there and the people within these companies totake huge amounts of material and to walk away withthem and to take them home.

I would submit to you that ifwe build a pipeline in Canada, that we cannot allowthat to happen because it is not appropriate thatthousands or several thousand young people from thesouth of Canada go into the north and take their firstjob under such circumstances. I think that the socialcost to the south would be great when those people cameback, having learned that violence and theft are a wayof life and I think that we must be prepared toproperly police this operation and prepared to pay thesocial costs that will be involved both to our ownyoung people and to the people of the Inuit.

In closing, I can simply sayto you that I thank you for giving us a chance to speakon these issues and that I trust that this presentationof ideas will do great deal to hold the countrytogether, to make us aware of the regions and toprevent us building hastily the Mackenzie ValleyPipeline that we may well regret.

The Committee for anIndependent Canada is not opposed to development. It


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is not opposed to a pipeline. It is not opposed to thedevelopment of energy. It simply says that we must gointo this not as we went into the development of dam onthe Columbia River, not knowing what the cost will be,but that we go into this knowing full well what ourcosts will he and that we are prepared to pay them asthey come to us. Thank you sir.

(APPLAUSE) (WITNESS ASIDE)MR. WADDELL: Mr.

Commissioner, I have a letter brief to you. I wonderif I could read it into the record. It's short. It'sfrom Gordon Firth, who is a minister of KnoxPresbyterian Church here in Calgary.

" Dear sir: I sincerely hopethat this short letter will be acceptable in the termslaid down for your bearings. I write because I will beabsent from the City of Calgary on May the 13th and14th next. I write also because my concern over thedevelopment in the north and specifically the oil andgas pipelines can be expressed in one short statement.I would respectfully request that your mainrecommendation to the Government of Canada be that nodevelopment takes place in the north that isdetrimental to the rights and privileges of the nativepeople of the Territories or before their land claimshave been satisfactorily settled.

I am well aware that this isa complex issue. However, it does seem to me that alltoo often when we convince ourselves that an issue iscomplex, we tend to overlook the simple, fundamental


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core issue. Surely the fundamental issue at stake hereis the native people themselves. It does seem to methat out of your hearings we Canadians have aglorious opportunity of making the future developmentof Canada one of genuine partnership.

I regret not being able toattend your hearings which I have followed with a greatdeal of interest, previous plans to not permit. Yourssincerely, Gordon Firth."

Mr. Commissioner, I wonder ifwe could break for coffee now. I should say that aftera short coffee break, we'd like to hear from Mr. StanJones of the Association of Oil Well DrillingContractors, Miss Lorraine Alison, Mr. R.O. Jonasson,the general manager of Dominion Bridge, Mr. Danseur, ofthe United Brotherhood of Carpenters and Joiners, Mr.Nickle who's the president of ConVentures Limited andif time, from Steve Tyler and Deanna Greyeyes of theSouthern Support Group and from Professor DixonThompson.

THE COMMISSIONER: All right,we'll take a break for coffee then.(PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR A FEW MINUTES)


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(PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)THE COMMISSIONER: Ladies and

gentlemen, let's call our hearing to order again andsee how we get along between now and lunch time, and

MR. WADDELL: I call upon,Mr. Commissioner, Mr. R.O. Jonasson, who is thegeneral manager of Dominion Bridge Company Limited.Mr. Jonasson?

R.O. JONASSON sworn:THE WITNESS: Good afternoon,

Mr. Commissioner. Mr. Commissioner, ladies andgentlemen, this submission is brief to the point, andis respectfully presented to outline certain of theviews of the Dominion Bridge Company with respect tothe question of the need and the advisability ofproceeding with the pipeline to transport gas from theMackenzie Delta and Prudhoe Bay to markets in Canadaand the U.S.A.

The Dominion Bridge Companywith head offices in Montreal, Quebec, is a Canadiancompany, which had its beginnings in Toronto in 1879.1e followed the C.P.R. to the west and we built theirbridges for them. It has grown to become aninternational company with manufacturing facilitieslocated across Canada, the U.S.A., and the Bahamas.

Our product lines are mostlyof a capital goods nature, ranging from heavy cranesruling platforms, oil pump jacks, to components for


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nuclear reactors. The products manufactured byDominion Bridge are now in service in 50 countriesthroughout the world. In Alberta our plants inEdmonton and Calgary fabricate structural steel, platework, and mechanical products.

Our primary market is the oiland gas industry, but spending by this industry is theprime mover for a large percentage of all of theactivity generated in our two Alberta operations. Infact, recent major capital expenditures and productdevelopment by Dominion Bridge have been geared toexpectations of further growth in the oil and gasindustry, and in related industries in Alberta, and inregions which are now being serviced by industry inAlberta.

The Dominion Bridge, AlbertaBranch, is presenting this short brief as a concernedCanadian company which is very close to the oil and gasscene in Alberta. Briefly the two points that we wouldlike to emphasize are as follows: 1. We subscribe tothe premise that it should be an objective for Canadato become less dependent on foreign sources of energyand as close to self-reliance as is practicallypossible.

Energy and feed stocks forthe petrochemical industry at competitive world costpromotes the manufacture of goods in Canada for exportat competitive world prices. The promotion of Canadaas a world trader, especially of manufactured goods,provides employment opportunities for Canadians and


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helps contain our balance of payments.The accelerating outflow of

funds from Canada is a serious problem. If presenttrends continue, the net importation of oil into Canadawill become the largest single contributor to Canada'sbalance of payment deficit, and Mr. Commissioner, thatoutflow will become a flood in a very, very few years.In fact there is a case for proceeding immediately onthe pipeline on the basis that threshold levels couldbe smaller if Canada were a partner with the U.S.A. intransporting gas from the Mackenzie Delta area to themarkets in the south.2. The existence of a healthy and vigorous gas and oilbusiness in Western Canada has resulted in the growthof secondary industries throughout Alberta which haveequipped themselves to handle a larger and larger shareof the physical and technical requirements of thisindustry. Growth in the oil and gas industry hashelped to transform the very mosaic of Alberta from onewhich was primarily dependent on agriculture to adiversified economy. As the oil and gas industry inthe west matures, and as plans for upgrading peacetalks take shape, secondary industry will grow andmature along with it.

Dominion Bridge in Alberta isan example only of the kind of secondary industry inthis province which is developing in capabilities andexpertise to service the growing requirements madepossible by healthy oil and gas industries.

Employment opportunities for


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highly skilled work force and for technical backup havebeen enhanced thereby, and have enabled Dominion Bridgeto expand their capabilities, create further jobopportunities for Canadian workers, and more important,to reduce the dependence of the Canadian oil and gasindustry on foreign sources of supply.

Mr. Commissioner, as ourbusiness is essentially to supply facilities andequipment to the cross-section of Alberta operations,our activities are probably indicative of the health ofthe Alberta economy. A significant volume of ourbusiness both directly and indirectly results fromactivity in the oil and in the gas industry. We feeltherefore that a healthy, vigorous and expanding oiland gas industry is of benefit to all industry inAlberta, and indeed to all of Canada.

I thank you.THE COMMISSIONER: Thank

you, sir. I just wonder, one thing -- and this is thecentre of the oil and gas industry in Canada, thiscity -- the whole question of the extent of reservesin the Mackenzie Delta and Canada's requirements forgas, the possibilities of export, those are allquestions for the National Energy Board and not forme. But in other centres people have -- and you said,sir, that there was a case for immediate constructionof the pipeline because of impending shortages of gas.The other argument has been put to us, and no doubtwill be put to the National Energy Board and they willhave to sort this out, but people have said -- that


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come before the Inquiry -- that in the early '70s theindustry told us that we had an abundance, in fact asuper-abundance of gas. We were told that there werehundreds of years' supply of deliverable gas availableto us; and upon the strength of those predictions ofabundance we agreed to export virtually one-half ofour daily production of gas to the United States, Nowthe same people who predicted an abundant supply forhundreds of years are predicting shortages of gas andurge that the pipeline must be built immediately toovercome those shortages.

I'm simply saying to you as arepresentative of the Calgary business community thatthe people who question the predictions of shortagesare coming before this Inquiry and putting it to us inthat way. They are saying that the people whopredicted abundance, and on the strength of whosepredictions we agreed to export vast quantities ofnatural gas to the United States are telling us thatnow because of those exports we made and are stillmaking we are in a position of imminent shortages andthey are asking, "Are we in a position to rely upon andto act upon the predictions of those very same people?"

I only put this to youbecause one of the functions of this Inquiry is to makesure that we understand each other's point of view.The people here learn from you and you learn fromothers who have spoken.

A I don't think that wasthe point I was trying to make, Mr. Commissioner. It


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was the point that if we transport our gas from upnorth along with let's say American gas, that there isa cost factor, and I think I speak for industry inCanada when I say that cost of energy is a concern forall industry in Canada.

Q Oh, I see. Yes.A That was the point I

wanted to make.Q You made the point

that an early decision by Canada on the pipeline and onthe Arctic Gas proposal in particular, where you havethe gas of both countries being carried in the samesystem, is essential so that our decision-making can bedove-tailed with U.S. decision-making, I appreciatethat.

A It was the economics ofit that I was alluding to.

THE COMMISSIONER: All right.Well, thank you very much for your presentation.

(APPLAUSE)(SUBMISSION OF R.O. JONASSON MARKED EXHIBIT C-311)

(WITNESS ASIDE)MR. WADDELL: Is Lorraine

Allison here? Stan Jones here? Or someone from theCanadian Association of Oil Well Drilling Contractors?Danzer here of the United Brotherhood of Carpenters?

THE COMMISSIONER: I don'tknow whether that means we'll get an early lunch ornot. Or get our lunch on time.

MR. WADDELL: We call upon then,


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Mr. Commissioner, Mr. E.E. Cudby of Calgary, Mr. Cudby?THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, sir?E.E CUDBY sworn:THE WITNESS: Thank you, Mr.

Commissioner, for this privilege of speaking beforethis Inquiry. I propose to show that -- my name isE.E. Cudby, and I'm a citizen of the City of Calgary.I propose to show that I believe that the ownershipright to which the natives claim have not beenappropriately elaborated to date, and I would also hopeto be able to show that there should be no conflictbetween the decisions to be made with respect to thepipeline and the decisions with regard to the nativeclaims. They are mutually -- they are independent ofeach other.

I am quite aware, sir, thatin your speech to the Corry lecture at Queen'sUniversity on November 25, 1975, you alluded to severalpublic inquiries and Royal Commissions which had aprofound effect on changing Canadian history, and Irespect very much the impact that this particularInquiry might have on what decisions are in fact willbe made in the future. I suspect that in your bringingthis Inquiry to Calgary, it's because you're extremelyinterested in the depth of our concern and the range ofour perspective, and I certainly hope my contributionwill be worth your time.

It is therefore with respectand humility that I approach this Inquiry as a Canadianborn citizen representing no one else but myself, in


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respect to a part of our great and awesome country towit, the Northwest Territories and the Arctic, to whichsome natives are saying, "It is ours," meaning natives,while I am here to say, "Yes indeed, it is ours, but asCanadians, all of us."

As a Canadian citizen who hasundoubtedly reaped the benefits of northern developmentboth directly and indirectly, and as a person whosecareer as a professional engineer has evolved and broughthim to this place at this time, and truly conscious ofthe highly charged emotional confrontation that theMackenzie Valley Pipeline debate has raised between thevarious sectors of our society, and I am sorely afraidthat the people's perspectives on all sides are beingwarped by natural biases and will not be too helpful inthe final analysis, and that's why I'm here.

Certainly by any yardstick Iam not here as an expert, but simply as a member of thesociety that hopes that the decisions that willeventually accrue from the debate will be humanelyjust, reasonable and acceptable, and serving the mutualbest interests of us all, not just a few of the nativesand the whites who live in the vast and sparselyinhabited regions of the north.

Since the natives in thenorth have made this Inquiry their forum to espousetheir land claims settlement -- land settlement claims-using the theme that a pipeline should not be builtuntil their claims are settled, then it seems to methat there is room to rebut their position. Neither


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industry nor government can do it effectively, nor canany association do it simply because any directparticipation is often construed as interference, trueor not, which would be made to appear of the worstkind, and sometimes this does appear in the press, andthe press corroborates that fear.

Therefore it rests withsometimes people like myself, representing but onevoice, to help establish a beachhead of reasonablenessand human understanding in the decision-making processon which we are embarked, using common sense andreality as a vehicle, The Dene nation claims theirland is not for sale. I have some good news for thenatives, and some bad news. The good news is thatthey are perhaps right in the proposition that theirland of the Mackenzie River Valley is not for sale;the bad news may be that the vast lands they refer toas theirs in ownership are not theirs, not now, notever.

I would like to just, in alldue respect to Mr. Donovan who made reference to thisSpanish jurist, I think he might have been referring toVictorio de Francesco in 1532, who was asked thatquestion and did in fact state that in his estimationthat the Indians did own the land and they should betreated as equals. The unfortunate situation actuallywas that Francesco did not come to the Americas to seethe magnitude of his decision, and the second thing isthat we certainly agree --

THE COMMISSIONER: He was


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these One of experts from out of town.A That's correct, He lived

in Rome and looked out, and the point being that itwould have been very nice if he could have elaboratedon what he thought the ownership rights were, as towhat land; he had no concept of it. Secondly, ofcourse, it was in the hope that maybe he could havedealt with the native people as equals. **That/may nothave the; hopefully we can now.

If, however, the rationalnative speaks of his land as that modest portion. onwhich he has settled as a home, then undoubtedly hisreference to ownership right has great validity and hisownership therefore should be unquestionablyestablished. However, if the native speaks of using orwalking on the huge land area of the great MackenzieRiver Valley in the terms of ownership, then he shouldinstantly recognize that simply walking on the landdoes not make it his, and no amount of legal qobblygookas Harold Cardinal so well expressed the laws of nativerights to be, will change that fact. Notwithstandingthe fact that the law may do just that, that isinterpret the land use in the aboriginal sense as landownership; but that's not to say it's right, and weshould make no mistake about that.

I join with Mr. Wah-Shee inhis condemnation of the shameful leading astray of agreat people's concern for their future by certainwhite advisors who profess to be the native Indian'sfriend, friendship that will probably end when the


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advisory fees are paid. These advisors, I contend havemade and continue to make political and financial hayout of such an issue as this, and in doing so obscurethe morals established, or natural state of things towhich we might turn our attention for just a moment.

History records that thiscountry's pioneers, whether they were governmentrepresentatives or missionaries, did in fact allude tolands not covered by treaties as being Indian land andsuch lands were often referred to as lands owned by thenatives to be purchased from him, in days of myobservation of the term "ownership" as used by theearlier Canadians was simply a term that had nosignificance in our current commercial and industrialsense, unfortunate as that may be.

In fact, the reality is thattreaties were signed only as needed to advise thenatives that the lands that he had freely used prior tothe white man's coming were no longer available to themas they were before, and that such accommodations aswere made in regard to this situation can rightly orwrongly be argued insofar as their fairness isconcerned and I suggest this issue appears worthy offurther investigation and rationalization. As scholarshave delved into the legality of the native rightsposition, they discovered all sorts of anomalies, allof which were man-made, and clearly demonstrate howinadequate we often are in dealings with our fellowman.

An example might be the Rand


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formula developed from an earlier Royal Commission onunion shops which might not necessarily have been right,as when they were first recommended in (inaudible) moreright today. They were simply just convenient.

I would guess that the Indianor native person, particularly those of the plains, wereupset at the white man settling on land where he oncefreely roamed. I believe they had every right to beupset, as I would have been. I would also note,however, that whereas the government never treated withthe Indians for more land than the government needed,wanted or could control, and that the Indian territorywas always one step beyond the white man's demand forspace which was used for settlement and railroadbuilding. The Indian was not so much upset by the whiteman's intrusions as he was upset by the inadequacy ofthe accommodation, the unkept promises either spoken orimplied in writing, and perhaps the Riel Rebellion isperhaps an example of a violent protest against suchinadequacies.

In law, nations agree that thediscovery nation had sovereignty and therefore title tothe discovered land, Sovereignty was maintained by thesovereign nation's ability to provide protectionSovereignty was protected, gained or lost through warsor sale, and there are a number of examples that canshow this up. The treaty per se, in spite of the legalconnotations, were simply a device to inform the nativein writing that in return for the relative freedoms helost, he would be protected by the sovereign nation, and


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I such a trade-off often included payments in money orgoods or land. Examples are the Indian Reservations.

Our historical record notesthat we can call Indian lands, that is untreatiedlands, as lands owned by Indians, does not necessarilymake it so, particularly in view of the fact thatnative people did not view the land they inhabited asbelonging to them in the ownership sense. If thissounds like mumbo-jumbo, let me say it another way.

The natives today talk of notonly talk of land ownership, but also of naturalresources below the ground. There is no way that theycan claim ownership to natural resources below groundbecause they didn't exist in truth. Natural resourcesonly become a resource when they are discovered andhave economic or social utility. We know that surfaceand sub-surface resources exist today is one thing, butthat they were not known 100 years ago is another.This is a very important consideration.

Therefore ownership is not aviable concept unless there is a document in thewestern sense to show it that. Saying it does, doesnot make it so. Not in any Court of law. If one saysit and we are to believe it, it an be equally unjust.The sum and substance of these observations over Canadafrom the moment of discovery had sovereignty oversettled land and derived sovereignty over treatiedlands simply because it chose to protect those landsand its inhabitants, and by treaty indicated to thenatives what they received in return.


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The so-called southern orPlains Indians were a communal type of people and inthe negotiations the reservations hopefully were toserve their purpose. Whether that was right or wrongis another issue that can hardly be decided on.

The northern Indians bycontrast, in spite of their alleged stated position onunitedness, as portrayed in the term of "Dene nation",are in fact family units often living in isolation, onegroup from another. The facts are clearly borne out ina documentary record written by Father Rene Fumoleau ina book entitled:

"For As Long As This Land Shall Last,"wherein he states that natives rarely if ever visitedeach other's community, no matter how close or how farapart they were. Also it is interesting to note anotherdifference. Whereas the Plains Indians, insofar as therecord seems to show, there is very little record thatthey ever starved. Yet there is record to showapparently that the Indians of the Mackenzie Valley didin fact starve before the white man came, and in fact itwas the Hudson's Bay Company in many instances duringtheir incursions into the country that where they foundthese starvation factors, fed them; and when theHudson's Bay company sold the land, the rights to whatcontrol they had to the government, the Indians presumedthat their rights of being looked after would fall onthe Federal Government, and the Federal Governmentdidn't pick that up.

So the government didn't want


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to sign treaties, but the Indians did want to havetreaties signed, not so much as settling any landclaims, but as a matter of ensuring themselves federalprotection from starvation, marauding miners andtrappers, and inexcuseable trespass on their homesteadland. One should note that our intrusion of the nativehabitat was at first mutually acceptable in that ourforebearers, the traders and the voyageurs, etc., camein peace and were accepted. This was a mutuallyacceptable arrangement. There was something in it foreach, both for the native and the European alike, Ashared experience mutually beneficial to each, and nogovernment welfare was expected or needed. I suspectthat the reason for this was the fact that the Indian'straditional way of life was not seriously interferedwith at that time, and the treaty arrangement simplycomplemented it. That the Indian became more and moredependent upon the white man was perhaps the realtragedy from the Indian's point of view, and certainlyfrom ours, too.

However, as time went onwhite man's impact was more highly visible and withoutso much as a "by your leave", the white man simplymoved in and he simply took and used what thegovernment would allow, and as I understand it, thegovernment did not make treaty with the northernnatives because treaty was essentially assumed to be afinancial burden without national benefit. That is inreturn for giving Indians title for a homestead orwhatever, and at that time it wouldn't have been very


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much, the government had to be responsible for thenatives' welfare, a position that the centralgovernment in Ottawa didn't feel was justified at thattime, in spite of the pleadings from missionaries andTerritorial agents alike to the contrary. Ottawa'sposition was, "Why saddle the nation with theresponsibility if it didn't have to?"

Interestingly, the nativeswanted a treaty and the government didn't, and in myopinion the government policy was economicallyoriented and therefore inhumanely despicable, to saythe least, much to our discredit today, and this isa wrong that must be righted, and it's very easy tolook back in hindsight at this time from thisperspective.

The native, however, statesthat the north is harsh and he needs considerably moreland than his southern cousin does to live on, or thanI do, and although I concede that since his backgroundis pastoral, compared to my urban background, and thatspace and surface land values in the north should notreally be an issue in the human settlement context, Irecognize that certain other accommodations may benecessary. I therefore suggest that if a section ofland is home to a family unit, then the familyshould be granted title to it, as we have titleto the land our southern homes are on. If thenative's lifestyle and conditions for alternatemeans of survival require that he maintain controlover the lands and waters where he traps and fishes


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and hunts, then, such control should perhaps beassured; but certainly not in perpetuity. Whetherexclusively or not is a negotiable item it turns onfor as long as his lifestyles require it, and so longas the control and use is neither abused nor providesfor unreasonable discrimination against his fellowCanadians, no matter where he lives.

Again, I reiterate every manis entitled to a home and a plot of ground that can becalled his own. He is entitled to have access to themeans of survival, hopefully in accordance with hisdesires. Not all of us, of course, are so fortunate inreaching this goal, not the least of them being ournative Canadians.

I hope we can provide forthem not only the means to alternate lifestyles butalso the opportunity to make decisions based on theirchoices, not ours, But I suggest that publicly acceptedregional democratic processes and land use control arethe key, not regional, land ownership. Such landaccess in' the traditional sense would be to establishareas for hunting, fishing and trapping understewardship tight control of the natives, subject togovernment native-inspired regulations based on naturallaws, to ensure that no part of the environmentincluding the wildlife and fish resources isnegligently diminished or inexcusably destroyed forlack of understanding and conservation.

I am not opposed to theconcept of an Inuit territory or a Mackenzie Valley


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territory, for that matter, in which there would be aCommissioner and a Council truly representing themajority, and if that majority be native, so be it.The important thing is that such territorialconstitutions that may be developed for thisaccommodation must parallel other similar Canadianfederal or provincial systems and in no way should apublicly unacceptable advantage enure to the nativeCanadian on an individual basis. An accommodationmight have to be made for a few years for suchcommunities as Inuvik and Yellowknife to be differentlyadministered until such time as such newadministrations as may be appropriately derived for theregion are functioning as well as the native people andother northerners could hope for.

I would see it as true thatthe real native issue in the north is essentially thesame as ours, and that is ensuring that we have somecontrol over our joint destinies in the place where welive. Inasmuch as the provinces have some controlover their natural resources, and therefore regionalcontrol, so too one must believe that these samecontrol factors must, to a proportionate degree atleast, be available to the people of the north nativesand white alike. What funds and by what means shouldbe available is a matter for negotiation. The Inuitproposal of 3% of revenues from the sale of naturalresources seems to be a reasonable starting point,and in order to prevent abuses, perhaps thereshould be a floor and a ceiling that is reviewable


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every few years and such revenues should accrue to theTerritorial People's Government through their RegionalCouncil, not as individual natives or whites, but ascitizens in the same context as with the provinces,such that as the people come or go, the revenueremains with the administration for regional, notindividual, use. In this way then the native people,consistent with their deigned prerogative to controltheir destiny, through democratic institutions will beable to meet their needs within the larger frameworkof a united and integrated Canada having the sameresponsibilities, rights and privilege as the rest ofus, and please note the word "responsibilities", theword too often missing from the native claimsdialogue.

We Southern Canadians haveno special rights to the use of natural resources ofthe north any more than from any other province, andonly in the sense that the natural resources areexploited and transported out of an area withbeneficial returns to the people of the area oforigin, and to the nation as a whole, through thevarious levels of responsible government is the rightto resources defensible.

I submit that the landownership claims on the grand scale submitted by thenative groups of the north is grossly unrealistic,position perpetrated on the native people by someself-serving advisors, It is tragic and disquietingthat the consequences of which should the native


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people's claims be believed, countenanced or inactuality written into binding legal treaties oragreements, shall surely haunt us all the days of ourlives. In my opinion, the native people have anindisputable grievance, and ,I would hope that everytreaty ever made or not made, implied but notexercised, should be reviewed, and that the propertype of accommodation be made in the light of 20thcentury wisdom and man's believe in man's humanity toman. It would be in this context that I see ameaningful settlement that could possibly be fulfilledand this would not necessarily require that the landsettlement claims precede the routing of the pipelinewhich, if it is to be in the general public'sinterest, will be built in spite of anything to thecontrary. Land claims should not be a deterrent tothis decision, and the native concern that we don'tneed the pipeline may be valid but certainly has noplace in the land claims debate. The pipeline issueis in the same context as the Toronto-Spadina Freeway,and the people of the Spadina Freeway -- and for thepeople of the Spadina Freeway, the freeway wasessentially proposed to serve. It was they who wereto be served that made the decision not to have thefreeway built.

The pipeline issue should besettled by the people it is destined to serve, providedit has dealt with the proper safeguards for allconcerned. In summation, sir, then in my mind thereis no question there is a land ownership entitlement


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issue to be settled with northern native peoples, and Ihope we can get on with the job as quickly as possible.Let it also be understood, sir, that the nativepeoples, treatied or untreatied, never really ownedland prior to any treaty representation. It was a termoriginally applied to the early North Americansituation and hopefully we can begin to understand whatlands they do in fact own.

The native request for totalcontrol over his destiny, whether it be cultural oreconomic, is a valid one, in my estimation, andhopefully too this can in fact be corrected and takencare of. The time for negotiation is now, and furtherrhetoric is probably pointless.

Finally, sir, the conflictbetween the native land claims issue and the northerndevelopment visions, the latter is currently beingcrystallized in the proposed Mackenzie Valley Pipelineshould and can be resolved whether the pipelineconstruction gets under way first or not. I say thishaving regard and respect for the native fears who says"We cannot trust the white man." I say that whether ornot the pipeline is built before or after the landclaims are settled, his fears will not diminish.Therefore there is in fact no advantage to the nativeone way or the other.

I maintain that the native inthe light of 20th century sophistication will get thebest deal he is entitled to, with or withoutdevelopment, and for the native to maintain that this


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would not be so is an illusion. I suggest that if wepropose to take advantage of the native, we will do itone way or another in the negotiations for the landsettlement or following in terms of northerndevelopment.

I further suggest that wewill not take advantage of the native, I believe thatwhatever the settlement will turn out to be, it will bemore than most rational Canadians citizens believe thatthey are entitled to; but I will not quibble if thegains are modest, and the dignity of man, northernerand southerner alike, is assured and preserved insofaras humanly possible. At the same time, the agreementthat will finally accrue will undoubtedly not besatisfactory to all natives simply because their ideasof entitlement, consistent with their preconceivednotion, will not be met entirely. That is life and wecannot go on and on blaming someone or something elsefor past wrongs.

The need will be, once theagreement is consummated, to bend every effort to makeit work, and it has been said before (and I shouldrepeat it again) that this nation -- what this nationdesperately needs unfortunately, because we can't copewithout policy, is a native people's policy designedto ensure and preserve the dignity of man, an energyand northern policy to serve the nation, a humansettlement policy designed to serve humanity, andperhaps then one can have some assurance that thedecision-making process of these related


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issues will be as credible as can be expected under ourdemocratic system, troubled as it is.

So let's get on with theprocess before we run out of support systems whetherthey be social, financial, or resource-based.

Thank you very much, Mr.Commissioner.

(APPLAUSE)(SUBMISSION BY E.E. CUDBY MARKED EXHIBIT C-312)


Commissioner, our next brief is from Mr. Terry Lusty,that's L-U-S-T-Y, and he's with the Metis HistoricalSociety. Mr. Lusty?

TERRY LUSTY sworn:THE WITNESS: Mr. Justice

Berger, will you forgive my hat if I wear it?THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I

hadn't even noticed it.THE WITNESS: Thank you. I

feel comfortable this way and I think you canunderstand yourself, having been in the north andamongst the people up there.

I thank the Commission forthis opportunity and special allowance to get up here.I have to leave for Edmonton shortly, but I would liketo express my sincere gratitude for the opportunity topresent this brief as a concerned native southerner whohas tremendous love, respect and concern for nature,human life, and the impact that development would have


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if forced upon my brothers and sisters in the northcountry. I am Metis by birth, of which I am proud, andshall be so until such time as there is no tomorrow.For the past dozen years I have been intensely involvedwith many native organizations, am currently presidentof the Metis Historical Society, and come from not onlyan urban background but also a rural one. I have livedon both sides of the fence. I've been on colonies, Ilived six years on the outskirts of Calgary here on theSarcee Reserve, I've travelled widely in Canada amongstmany of the Metis and Indian communities, as well ashaving been in the Territories. I would like to pointout that in this brief I have taken the liberty to usethe term "we" in place of "I" for I know that manynatives feel and think as I do, with regards to thefollowing statements.

For many decades the dominantsociety of Canada has dictated what they deem to be aproper way of life. This has been arbitrarily inflictedwith little, if any, respect and concern for nativevalues and customs. White society, government, and bigbusiness all have been an imposition, of course, andadversive elements, values and societal structurewhereby their ways are right while those of the nativeare held to be inferior, primitive and antiquated.This, of course, is from a non-native perspective. Thisattitude in terms of denial of one's individual right tolive as they wish to without interference from outsideinfluence, I think it unnecessary to further elaboratethat native people have not been adequately accorded


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equality in the decision-making processes in the north,which directly and indirectly affect their daily andfuture lives, culture, subsistence patterns andtechnology. It is beneath the dignity of the nativepeople to be asked to forsake that way of life which hasbeen cherished for so many centuries, centuries longbefore the white man came to this land, and before theyeven knew of the existence of native people We are apeople whose ancestors backdate since time immemorial inthis country and are desirous that our presence berightfully acknowledged and respected.

When the white man came tothis country, my native ancestors welcomed them,intermarried with them, had children by them, andsuccumbed to their governmentation. We have askedlittle in return. We have been socially andpolitically submissive. However, such a situationcannot perpetrate itself infinitely. Just how long arewe expected to pursue an atmosphere of tolerance? Weasked not for those burdens which were thrust upon us.We asked not for your language, your religion, yourliquor, or your vices. When treaties were effected ourforefathers knew' not the consequences. However, thesame is not totally true today. Native people knowwhat is going on in the here and now. We are not asreadily susceptible to deception, to empty words, toambiguous promises some which were verbally promisedbut never recorded, especially in the treaties. Butthose times are now past. We are more intellectuallyequal and familiar with institutional games and are


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cognizant that we are still the first citizens of thisland. As such, we expect to be treated accordingly, infair and just terms.

We are not questioning thecessation but rather the postponement of development inthe north. Our very lives are at stake, as are thoseof all future generations. In light of thisdevelopment must be a careful and a cautious step alsonot just for ourselves butt for our children unborn.We ask to be participatory in controlling and decidingto a much greater degree our destiny. What has becomeof those Puritan ethics? Where are the humanitarianswho would first see the issue of aboriginal rightshonored, respected and fairly dealt with? Where liesthe true conscience of Canada? Money and technology,they can never rebuild, they can never replace norcompensate for that irreparable damage which nativepeople and the land would realize from development. Itwould be devastating for development to occur overnightwhen it is instituted and it must not happen beforesettlement of aboriginal claims. If such were totranspire, native people of the north country wouldvery likely never know a fair and just settlement.

It is the native person whosees what is happening to his brothers, his sisters,and his land. It is not the white southerner or theOttawa bureaucrat. It is the native who is aware ofnature's scheme of things and the purpose of life. Weknow that we must live in harmony with nature and notupset its delicate balance. We also know that man's


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quest for resources from our great Mother Earth runcontrary to the maintenance of this harmony of life.It is understood that the land is for the use, notabuse, and benefit of all mankind. This privilege mustbe respected and looked upon not in terms of dollarsand cents, but with a view to the future of the land,the plants, the animals, and the native people who mustlive with it and benefit from it on a day to day basis.Development of the land must not be too swift, if it isto be preserved for future use. To destroy it is tonot only destroy native life, but also non-native, forthey too are reliant upon plants and animals. I refernot only to present and near future, but also to thedistant future. The long-range impact which coulddisrupt nature's scheme of things and which, if abused,will see man destroy himself.

We must respect the work ofthe Creator. We must not pollute the soils or thewhich sustain plant and animal life upon which we inturn must subsist. We must not poison the air that notonly people must breathe, but which plants and animalsmust also absorb. We must not tear up Mother Earth nordestroy her vegetation. These gifts of Manitou werespect and do not defile for we are the guardiansof these invaluable gifts as were our forefathersbefore us. These gifts of the Great Spirit must berespected by all humans if they are to share in thebounties and life-giving richness of nature. We havealways allowed for a sharing of the land. We havealways acknowledged the right of other men to maintain


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their cultures freely. Now we ask for the sameconsideration. We have not interfered; likewise wewant no interference.

But when the land and itslife-giving forms are threatened, then we are forced toact as pessimists. We have taken a stand to preserveand protect our wildlife. We depend on it for oursubsistence, as other Canadians must also depend on itfor their subsistence. It is not only native peoplebut those of Canada at large who will suffer theconsequences if nature is despoiled. Do not under-estimate the negative outcomes which development ofmajor pipeline can have on life forms, When Canadiansthink of development, they must keep foremost in theirminds the value and continued preservation of plant andanimal life, not to mention human life, which must relyupon nature if they are to survive. Bear in mind thatwe are all, each and every one of us, children ofMother Earth. It is on this sacred earth that all ofus were brought into this life, and it is to this earthwe will all return when we pass from this life. If itis to be respected, as it should be, it will in turn bea good provider for us in the years to come.

Now for a somewhat harsherpitch, and not that I am an anarchist or advocateinsurrection, but if business insists on cornering nativepeople, they had best heed their feelings, feelings whichare running high not only in the Territories, in B.C.,Quebec, and other areas where treaties are verycontentious issues, as are the land claims.


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They must also heed the repetitions of history and thoselessons which history displays. As but one of manyexamples, let us look briefly at the case history of theMetis in Canada, who in 1816 reacted to nonnativeoppression at the Battle of Seven oaks in which the Metisleader, Cuthbert Grant, defeated the aggravative GovernorSemple and his Selkirk settlers. Look also at the RedRiver situation of 1869 to '70, in which Riel'sProvisional Government took and held Fort Garry to bringto the attention of the Canadian Government land concernsof the Metis; and again in 1885 when Riel. and GabrielDumont participated in the Northwest Rebellion atBatoche, Saskatchewan after 12 years of petitions,numerous petitions, which government went on to ignore.is this what history will repeat again? Do otherCanadians want to coerce and corner the native populaceto a point where once again they will see no recourseother than violence? Is it to be war again? I hope not,but it is up to you, it is up to Canada which directionhistory is to take. When will society learn thatcolonialism, suppression rid impositions cannot butfacilitate and trigger malcontent and ultimate violence?How catastrophic could imposed development of the northbecome? These questions I leave with you to ponder, Mr.Justice Berger, and to all other Canadians, and evenAmericans, especially those who have their fingers in the"oil pie".

Mr. Justice Berger, I shouldlike to wrap up by emphasizing seven points:1. As the native people are the true aboriginal


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people of Canada, and the Northwest Territories,development of the north should not proceed until suchtime as settlement of native claims are finalized in afair and equitable manner.2. Business and industry should exhibit greaterrespect for Mother Earth and all of her children,whether plant, animal, or human.3. If Canadians are to derive any continuouslivelihood from Mother Earth, consideration andconservation of a balanced ecology must be maintained.4. It is imperative that this Inquiry and itsresultant findings and recommendations not be shelvedin the government's File 13, and ignored as was theHawthorn Report of 1967 and 1968. An example of thisis Dr. Joan Ryan from the University of Calgary, whomwe heard speak yesterday. She worked for four years onthe Hawthorn Report, and now today, en years later, notone single recommendation has been implemented toaccommodate the changes which were predicted and arenow occurring, such as the intense migration of nativepeople the city.5. The time is long overdue for Canada to think interms of human and natural life forms as havingpriority over and above the pursuit of "finer frills'which this capitalist society incessantly seeks.6. One cannot and must not overlook the possibility asdocumented in past history of violence as a last resortto unwelcomed development and governmental neglect of agrave situation.7. 1 have personal doubts and seriously question


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whether there is a real and pressing need to tapresources of native lands anywhere which calls for bigbusiness aggressiveness.

As a final note, I would liketo thank this Commission for hearing me out, and I amgrateful to have shared these words with you. True, Iam not a Dene, nor am I an Inuit, or a status Indianfor that matter. But I am a native person by birth whocan readily share and whose heart is with the northernnative people in their pursuit of happiness,spiritualness and retention of a meaningful culture. Itrust and commend what appears to me to be a sincere,competent and studious Mr. Justice Berger andCommission. Where my only anxieties really lie is onthat skepticism I feel, doubts I must wrestle with whenI know of past failings of the bureaucratic structure,the "monster machine".

I hope that at least in thisinstance my apprehension is unfounded. However, if thedragon is to try to devour my people, I have yet thestrength to wield high my sword, if need be; andbelieve me, I would not stand alone for I am but one ofmany who have little else left to lose if stripped andraped of final remains.

In conclusion, if Canada hasever had the golden opportunity to exhibit its notionof fairness and justice, now is that time. Let herheed the words of the natives of the north. Let hershow other countries that Canada, among all worldnations, can live compatibly alongside its native


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population.I thank you.(APPLAUSE)

(SUBMISSION OF T. LUSTY MARKED EXHIBIT C-313)(WITNESS ASIDE)MR. WADDELL: Mr.

Commissioner, is Steve Tyler here? Mr. Commissioner, Iwould call upon Steve Tyler and Deanna Greyeyes to givethe next brief.

STEPHEN TYLER andMISS DEANNA GREYEYES, sworn:WITNESS TYLER: Mr.

Commissioner, this brief has been prepared by Calgarymembers of the Southern Support Group for Native LandClaims. For your information, this body is a looselyorganized group of citizens whose interest in thepipeline project centres primarily on its effect on theindigenous people, of. the north, the Dene and theInuit.

We recognize that there aremany serious environmental and economic questionsassociated with the proposed pipeline, but wish toconcentrate our attention on the point of the nativepeople and how we all as southerners are involved inthis issue. Our fundamental position is that thenative people of Northern Canada should have theopportunity to resolve land claims satisfactorilybefore the Mackenzie Valley Pipeline project canproceed. We believe that if the pipeline proceedsbefore land claims are settled, the associated


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development and growth would take place entirelyindependently of any real control, planning andinvolvement by native people, and would destroy thosevery institutions and values which they want topreserve through their land claims. We must emphasizehere that we do not speak for the native people of thenorth, they are their own spokesmen and we think it'svery important that they get full recognition,attention and respect from all other Canadians.

We are very pleased andgrateful to be able to address the Mackenzie ValleyPipeline Inquiry in Southern Canada because we want topoint out that the pipeline is not a northern projectbut a southern one. It has been create by SouthernCanadians for Americans j multinational industry, andgovernment. It has been created to meet SouthernCanadian and American needs -- and I say "needs" inquote, as these are seen by multinational industry andgovernment.

The problems which have beenhighlighted by much debate in recent months are focusedon the north where pipeline construction would takeplace; but the problems in Southern Canada are the oneswhich gave rise to the pipeline proposal and encouragedits development in the first place. These problemsinclude wasteful energy consumption patterns, over-zealous resource exploitation for the sake of short-term economic gain, short-sighted planning ingovernment and industry, and a federal policy vacuumfor rational utilization of all Canada's energy


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resources, renewable and non-renewable. These problemsin Southern Canada can only be intensified by a hastyapproach to northern development and the MackenzieValley Pipeline in particular.

Here in Alberta we havechampioned the view that control of this province'snatural resources and the benefits deriving from theiruse should remain primarily, if not exclusively, withthe people of the province who control therepresentative government. In the north the sameprinciple should apply. The native people who have astrong legal and moral claim to the land which theyhave always occupied and used, should control thedevelopment of the natural resources and the returnstherefrom; but control and distribution of benefitsmust take place through mechanisms and institutionswhich are chosen by the native people and aremeaningful to them.

The limited employmentopportunities created by southern industry pipelineconstruction may not be very helpful to native people,in helping them develop self-worth, independence andinitiative because they are based on values foreign anddistasteful to them. Without direct political aneconomic control of their lands, and hence their lives,the native people of the Mackenzie Valley, the Dene,will probably be unable to avoid exploitation throughthe short and long-term disruptions brought on by thepipeline.

The choices imposed by


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northern industry and government are for the natives tobecame unskilled or semi-skilled laborers in a very fewlong-term positions, and rather more short-term jobs,or for them to continue to receive paternal handouts.Is this the choice of the native people? Is thisreally a choice at all? Why not let the native peoplecreate their own economic opportunities?

We heard evidence yesterdayfrom the petroleum industry Committee on Employment ofNorthern Natives that northerners can participate innorthern development, through employment on theseprojects. On whose terms is this participation? Theparticipation is on the terms of the southernindustries involved. In what sense is this northerndevelopment? Does this develop the local people? Thebenefits go to the south.

A viable economic base fromsuch royalties and rents as the native people may seefit to levy is needed to prevent them from becomingeven more impoverished and manipulated than they noware. Short-term wages may help see some through aperiod of extreme price increases and economic boomconditions in the north; but after one or two years,three or four years of construction there could benothing left except the prices. In fact, with thedisturbance to local wildlife caused by pipelineconstruction activity, even the game which is now usedfor food supplies or supplements will be harder tofind.

Referring again to the


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evidence from the Petroleum Industry Committee onEmployment, a decline in petroleum activity just in thelast year, as Dave reported, has meant hardship tolocal people who were employed in the industry. Whathappens then with the decline in activity when thisproject is finished? What happens when the oil andgas industry retreats from the Arctic after 10 or 15years?

In Alberta many of thebenefits of resource development are now being used toencourage diversification of the economy, to offsetconcerns about the finite nature of our nonrenewableresources. If native people choose, as Albertans have,to sell their resources, income from resourceextraction can be used to develop their own meaningfulcommunity economic enterprises.

Development projects in thenorth preceding concurrent or subsequent to theMackenzie Valley Pipeline will use the pipeline's termsand controls as precedents. You yourself have referredto the extent of continuing development if the pipelineis approved.

If the pipeline proceedswithout agreement and control of the native peoples,and in direct opposition to their interests, whatevidence is there that any new northern developmentproject will be undertaken in conjunction with andfor the benefit and support of the native people? Ithas been claimed that the benefits of the northernpipeline would bring to Southern Canadians justify the


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damage it may cause in the north. Even setting asidethe debatable moral and ethical premise that thisargument is based on, there is question that thepipeline is needed for the benefit of SouthernCanadians. So far, finds of gas in the Mackenzie Deltaarea have been only marginal compared with reserves inAlberta. By undertaking a program of increaseddeliverability and reducing export commitments, whichcurrently accounts for one-third Canadian gasproduction, gas could be made available from existingfields at higher rates.

Government agencies alsoreport that renewable energy sources have shownconsiderable potential in meeting many household energyneeds, and strict conservation measures can reduce allenergy consumption very substantially. There is thusconflicting evidence at best that the pipeline isimmediately or ultimately necessary as the best optionfor supplying Southern Canadian needs for energy. Wethink it is time to ask some very direct and pointedquestions about irresponsible consumption, andirresponsible management of Canada's energy resources.The answers to these questions are not found in theform of the Mackenzie Valley Pipeline.

The moral and ethical questionposed by the whole atmosphere of development in NorthernCanada bears serious consideration by all of ussoutherners. In general terms, we must ask ourselvesbluntly if we really have the right to maintain andexpand a wasteful and extravagant lifestyle at the


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expense of the world's underprivileged peoples and theplanet's biological systems We must ask if it is ethicalto take the land and life of Canada's northern nativepeople from them, their values, their concern for theland for their children and' for each other should serveas alternatives and examples for the rest of Canada.They should not be extinguished by a powerful butnarrow-minded pressure from the south. We must listento what they are saying to us. It is to the credit ofthis Inquiry that the native people have been listenedto for virtually the first time.

But there is a need for realpolitical power for the native people to allow theiraspirations to gain fruition.

At present the nativepeoples, although a majority in the NorthwestTerritories, have no real control over what happensto their lives and their livelihood. Theirpriorities and decisionmaking procedures are ill-served by a Parliamentary system and bureaucracywhich is virtually incomprehensible even to most non-natives brought up in a culture and language whichgave rise to the system in the first place.

The minister of Indian Affairshas claimed that there will be substantial benefits tosouthern Canadians who need the gas from the MackenzieDelta. He has said that native people should be willingto part with some of the land and resources of the northfor the greater public good. His southern analogy waswith the expropriation of 20 feet on your privately


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owned lot if your community wants to build a road; butif we could express this analogy in terms of what thenative people are saying rather than what the Departmentis saying, we think it might be more appropriatelyillustrated by the expropriation of your entire lot,house, yard and garden, and its replacement by a high-rise apartment block and concrete parking lot. Insteadof compensation for expropriated land, you are offered asmall apartment with a balcony overlooking the parkinglot. This is what the native people of the northhave been offered so far -- a place, albeit asecondary place -- in the rape of their land andlife by southern interests that are completely foreignto their own.

WITNESS GREYEYES: I'd liketo just speak a few words on colonialism andpaternalism, and Mr. Berger, if you'll forgive myinitial nervousness, the last time I spoke to a judgewas under considerably different circumstances.

For too long the bureaucrats,technocrats, and industrialists of the south havedecided at arm's length what is best for the north andits people. The colonial mentality involved in makingdecisions in the south about the resources of thenorth, without regard to the wishes of the majority ofthe people in the north, has led to the confrontationwe now see. The policies of the Federal Department ofIndian Affairs & Northern Development have alienatedpeople with paternalism, destroyed self-worth andinitiative and helped to create high rates of suicide,


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alcoholism and family breakdowns. The very nature ofthe ministry presents a dichotomy of somehow promotingnorthern development while in theory at least acting asthe guardian of native people, whose interests arebeing threatened by that same development. Thisridiculous situation places the ministry in themanipulative role as an adversary to its own reluctantlegal wards. It is as if I went into Court as theaccused and had to face a man who in turn is thepolicemen who arrested me, my defence attorney, theprosecutor, and the judge who will hear my case.

Who then is working for myinterests? And how is justice possible? Paradoxicallythe Minister of Indian Affairs' political constituencyhas always been white, southern, and strongly influencel by powerful development interests. The result hasbeen that natives have been shunted aside in favor ofthose interests by people who are supposed to be thelegal guardians of their rights.

The Mackenzie Valley Pipelineor any other major development undertaken without thecontrol and direct involvement of native peoplethroughout all phases of planning and operations (anonly serve to entrench and support such southerncolonialism at the expense of the natives.

We have seen the patternbefore, and we can see it happening again. The weakand powerless, the poor and the uneducated aregenerally disregarded in development projects here inthe south. Government and industry have worked hand in


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hand in an effort to further their own narrow interestsof public interest without -excuse me, I'll start thatagain. Government and industry have worked hand inhand in an effort to further their own narrow ideas ofpublic interest without consulting the public whoseinterests they claim to serve. Historical precedentscan be drawn from annals of the early development ofthe prairies, as documented by James Grey. Increasinggambling, alcohol abuse, and prostitution in Alaskafollowed the exploitive pattern Grey has outlined.

Recently massive projectsalong James Bay and on the Churchill River in Manitobawere planned and started before local residents wereeven notified. In Alberta we have the example of theSyncrude project, where the natives living in the areahave not been included in the employment plan forSycrude. As in the words of one Northern Albertanative, "Why should we take jobs only as laborers?"

Syncrude has been operatingin Fort McMurray for years but why aren't they runningprograms to train native workers? There is nocompensation and people cannot participate in decisionswhich affect their survival. The great fear, as withthe Dene and the Inuit, is that industry and whitepeople will move in and they will be pushed aside andleft behind.

The natives in the south,where they are in the minority, are forgotten peopleswho are not considered in the plans for industrial growthand development. The influx of native people to the


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cities was predicted ten years ago by the HawthornReport, but was not acted upon by the Department ofIndian Affairs. There was no preparation or planningmade by the Department for this urban movement, andconsequently there has been further degradation and lossof work suffered by the native people in our cities.

As an example, in 1913 agroup of Indians in Calgary were determined to helptheir people to cope in the city, and the Calgary UrbanTreaty Indian Alliance was formed under provincialcharter. The Treaty Indian Alliance had their owncounsellors so that experienced natives were helpinginexperienced natives to orient themselves to citylife. From the Indian's standpoint, the project wascompletely successful, with excellent liaison occurringbetween social service personnel of Indian Affairs andthe Treaty Indian Alliance. However, the Departmentdecided to discontinue funding so that this worthwhilesupportive and co-operative program has been lost.

This is an example of a programconceived and implemented by Indians, and of benefit andvalue to them, but was considered by administrators to beof little value. Surely if this paternalistic attitudeby the Department still persists in the south, there islittle chance of a better attitude developing in IndianAffairs for programs to alleviate the upheaval thepipeline will cause in the north.

The type of colonialism andpaternalism in relation to Canada's Indians is longpast. We must make a public search for alternate


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policies for northern development, and the first stepis the achievement of a just land settlement with thenorthern people, both Dene and Inuit, includinghunting, fishing, and trapping rights, as well as fairroyalties in return for extraction of valuableresources from their lands. This must begin witheffective control over their own future, regional andeconomic development.

We have given some of thereasons for our support of the land claims of thenorthern native people, and some of the questions wehave in regard to the pipeline. Without politicalself-determination and control of their land, who usesit, how and when, these people will be swallowed upwith their resources by a greedy and thoughtlesssouthern community consumer society. That is why it isessential that land claims of both Dene and Inuit reacha fair and just settlement before there is any furtherexploitation of northern resources. The principles ofhuman justice and individual equality upon which thiscountry is based may thus be served to the ultimatebenefit of all citizens.

As a native of SouthernCanada I want to express my fears that the hardships,deceit and injustices we in the south suffered in ourdealings with the Canadian Government will be allowedto occur again in the north with the Dene. In the300 years since the first white man set foot onCanadian soil, the native people have been subjectedto the deceit of government and the abuse of


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industry. Evidence of this can be found bytravelling through any reserve in Canada. If theconditions visible on the reserves are any indicationof the Canadian Government's concept of justtreatment of native people, the Dene of the northhave reason to fear the white man's justice.

Here in the south promisesof fair treatment were repeatedly broken in the betterinterests of an expanding country. The fight ofnative people today in the south is to get thegovernment to honor its long-standing treaty ofpromises, and indicate the good faith on which thegovernment entered these agreements. If thegovernment had as much good faith as they said theydid at the signing of the treaties, there would not bea struggle today to get them to honor these treatiesbecause they would realize that all that we ask isjust what was promised to us.

The Dene, upon looking attheir southern brothers' experience, have reason todoubt government promises. Development here in thesouth has benefited only big business, certainly notthe natives. Development to native people in the southhas meant exploitation, extinguishment of aboriginaltitle, degradation, social isolation, and ultimatelyostracization. Development in the better interests ofCanada has meant that we have been stripped of ourpride, dignity and selfworth. Development has meantthat if your people are starving, the government willnot assist you unless you have land, gold, oil or furs


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to give up in trade. Development has meant that onceyou have given up everything, the government is nolonger interested in keeping the promises it made.Government, in concert with-industry, or progress assome call it, will merely give you a smaller piece ofland to starve and die on. "Out of sight, out ofmind," as the expression goes.

This is what 300 years ofCanadian Government development and progress have meantto the native people in the south. Must our brothers,the Dene, suffer for the next 300 years? And they willsuffer unless their request for land is respectedbefore development goes ahead.

I thank you.THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you

very much, and thank you, Mr. Tyler.(APPLAUSE)

(SUBMISSION BY S. TYLER AND D. GREYEYES MARKEDEXHIBIT C-314)

(WITNESSES ASIDE)MR. WADDELL: Mr. Commissioner

Mr. Carl Nickle , who is the president of ConVentureLimited, and is on our list for this morning, has kindlyagreed to be the first speaker this afternoon.

I apologize to Mr. DixonThompson and Mr. Alan Carter, are both scheduled forthis afternoon, and who asked me if I could get them inthis morning. I'm unable to do that and I can tellthem that we still want to hear from them thisafternoon, if that's possible, for them. If not, we


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can take their written brief and file it in the record.This afternoon, as well as

hearing from those two people and from Mr. Nickle, wehope to hear from the Canadian University ServiceOverseas, from Arnav Marine, from the BlackfootReserve, numerous native people representing theCalgary Urban Treaty, the Calgary Urban Treaty IndianAlliance, the American Indian Movement of Canada, andsoon. We hope to hear a couple of additional briefs aswell, Mr. Commissioner, but that's all for thismorning, and before asking Mr. Ryder whether anybodywants to -any participants wish to comment, if anypeople are interested we'll make an attempt to show afilm on the Inquiry at approximately 1:30.

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, Ipromised Mr. Grandy and his students that the filmwould be shown at 1:30, so it had better be shown.

Right, Mr. Ryder?MR. RYDER: Dr. Pimlott has

some remarks but because of the hour he's agreed kindlyto let us have our lunch now and he'll make them lateron in the day.

THE COMMISSIONER: O.K. Well,we'll adjourn, the film at 1:30, and we'll return hereto two for further representations.(PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO 2 P.M.)


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(PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)THE COMMISSIONER: Well

ladies and gentlemen, I'll call our meeting to orderthis afternoon and welcome those of you who have notbeen with us until now.

We have heard a great manyrepresentations here in Calgary already. We beganyesterday afternoon, continued yesterday evening andcarried on again this morning. We'll hear as manybriefs as we can this afternoon and then I'm afraid wewill have adjourn so that we can turn this room over toa local rock group and so that we ourselves can on toEdmonton where we will be holding hearings commencingon Monday a two o'clock in the afternoon.

I just want to say that youwill understand that when we scheduled the number ofdays we were to spend in each city in this southerntour, we did so on the basis of the response that wehad gotten to that point -- the number of briefs thathad been sent in and so forth and we find now that weare getting an avalanche of requests to appear at thesehearings and I simply ask those of you that we will notbe able to reach to file your briefs with MissHutchinson, the secretary of the Inquiry and if youhave anything further to add, just send a letter to mein Yellowknife. That'll reach me if you simply send itto me at Yellowknife and I promise you that the viewyou express in writing will be examined. I will bereading all of these briefs myself and so those of youthat we do not get a chance to hear today, I want you


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know that the representations you make will not gounconsidered.

So, I think you all know whatthe pipeline Inquiry is about and I will not bore youwith a repetition of my opening remarks. We'll savethose for Edmonton on Monday afternoon and we'll askMr. Waddell simply to let us know who is going to leadoff now.

MR. WADDELL: Yes, Mr.Commissioner. I should say I don't know if you knewthat we were followed by Count Bassey in Vancouver.Maybe the Count's following us around.

I would ask that we hear,from a short brief first before we get to Mr. Nickle.I did say we'd hear from Mr. Nickle but there is oneshort brief and I would call Mr. Alan Carter who isspokesperson for the Committee for the Responsibilityin Science. Mr. Carter?

ALAN CARTER sworn.;THE WITNESS: Mr.

Commissioner, ladies and gentlemen, entrepreneurs andthose who identify with entrepreneurs, particularlybureaucrats and government and some people inuniversities and particularly bureaucrats, thosefaceless men or some them **o4/who are faceless men whofor American dollars sell their country to the highestbidder. I'll try to be brief. I don't have much time,I have to make up the time today I took off mytemporary job and work tomorrow.

I want to thank you very much


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for giving us this opportunity to present our views. Ishould say I'm a spokesperson for the Committee forResponsibility in Science, a local group which includespeople from Edmonton as well as Calgary but we're not abunch of academics in that sense. There people withpermanent jobs in universities but some of usunemployed Ph.D.'s, or underemployed Ph.D.'s andMasters and others as well as non-academic staff andpeople in the outside community and we have particularpriorities and I suppose particular biases because ofthe job situation. We often can't get work in industryand particularly work in government because thegovernment apparently is not very concerned aboutsocial and environmental things so they don't take onbiologists with Ph.D's or without Ph.D.'s, not to anygreat extent anyway.

THE COMMISSIONER: Maybe wecould come to the brief sir.

A We strongly oppose theMackenzie Valley Pipeline project or any otherdevelopment project, for instance, drilling in theBeaufort Sea which would precede settlement of nativeland claims. We most strongly support the Inuit andDene claims based on aboriginal rights.

As members of a southernsupport group our support is founded not only onfeelings of concern and solidarity for the Inuit, Indiaand Metis of the north and south in their fight forself-determination and cultural survival, but are alsoon our experiences of the biases of Federal and certain


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Provincial Governments and entrepreneurs through rapiddevelopment regardless of social and environmentalconsequences.

Various members of ourcommittee have been involved in struggles in the pastagainst the proposed Village Lake Louise project, the(inaudible) and the Federal Government Green Paper onImmigration and Population. I won't go into the detailof our own experiences that are presented in thewritten brief which will be handed to the commissionbut I would like to summarize our feelings aboutpriorities and biases of governments in relation todevelopment and also in relation to colonization.

Now members of our committeewere also involved in opposition to the FederalGovernment immigration policy. The racist nature ofpassing **( ) and indeed Canadian Immigration policy isdescribed in detail elsewhere in the references in thewritten brief and I won't go into this now but we dobelieve that there is a link between the nature andpurposes of past and present immigration policy on onehand the exploitation by colonial governments andentrepreneurs of native peoples and their surroundingsin the past the treatments of Indian, Metis and Inuitpeoples in the latter day of the twentieth century onthe other hand.

The colonization of this partof North American now known as Canada was effected byBritish colonial governments through the fur tradingcompanies, the railway and mining companies and


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colonial government in Canada. For the expansion ofcapital, it was necessary for this transportationsystem to be built up. Now until recently, CanadianGovernment officials and big entrepreneurs, the latteras most people I think know, initially werepredominately British and now mainly American and bigbusinessmen, were content to leave and certain areas inthe south to natives and white traders and merchantsbut today predatory forces are looking to the non-renewable resources of the north and are determined toextract those such as oil and gas regardless of whatnatives, officials of DINA, may say. Now the, theDepartment of Indian and Northern Affairs may claimthat they're willing to negotiate with the Inuit, Metisand Indian there but unfortunately the treatment ofnative peoples in the past does not indicate that theFederal Government has acted or will act in good faith.

It may ask for input but asoften as not it proceeds a predetermined course, thatis of cooperation with entrepreneurs and exploitationand development in the north.

Thus we think the issuesinvolved in northern development go beyond economicconcerns and go beyond protection of the environmentwhich are surely important but fundamental political andethical principles are involved. Colonization isinvolved. At the very least we feel Federal andProvincial Governments must be persuaded to disassociateentirely from corporations such as Cominco, a subsidiaryof Canadian Pacific; Dome Petroleum, which is shortly


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going to drill in the Beaufort Sea area, Imperial Oil ofExxon and Brascan to name but a few of the major forcesof predation operating in the north and elsewhere inCanada.

Several of these companiesare also involved, we note in exploitation of resourcesand the people of Third World countries. Instead ofworking along side such companies as the FederalGovernment is doing in the PanArctic Oils Consortiumwhere it has a 45% share, the government should bootthese people and boot these corporations out of thenorth and give the natives a chance to determine theirown futures, the alternative involves forcing nativesinto towns and cities or onto reservations where theybe kept economically and politically dependant on thenative rulinq circle. This practice we feel isanalogous and indeed amologous to the (inaudible) ofSouthern African.

Lastly, we would like torecall the words of the Prime Minister of Canada whenhe recently visited Cuba when he said there, we believethat the natives are asking for their land back andsome day we may give it to them. I don't think theGovernment of Canada is going to give the land backwillingly to the native people

Thank you.THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you

sir.(THE SUBMISSION OF THE COMMITTEE FOR RESPONSIBILITY INSCIENCE MARKED AS EXHIBIT #C-315)


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Commissioner I'd call as the next brief Mr. Carl Nicklewho's the president of ConVentures Limited which Ibelieve is a Calgary company.

CARL NICKLE sworn;THE WITNESS: Mr. Justice

Berger, first of all may I thank you for theopportunity of appearing before you and I also want tocongratulate you on your patience and understandingduring 14 months of hearings similar, comparable towhat you've been putting up with here in Calgary thelast two days.

Now I am purposely cuttingout part of what I planned to say in order to emphasizea few other points which have not been discussed yet indetail which I think are important to your fullunderstanding of the matters before your Commission.

Now there are a very fewCanadians without bias of some kind or another whentalk or though turns to energy development of theCanadian north. At one extreme are those who claimthere should be no northern development for that woulddestroy the lifestyle of northerners or criticallyupset balance of nature of animal, bird or sea life.,would cause environmental damage so vast as to damagelife of all kinds everywhere.

At the other extreme are thefew who say energy supply is a most vital thing anddamn any other considerations. Sir, neither side is


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right. I am not extremist but I do have a bias andI'll fully define that in the course of my remarks.

I have a warm appreciationof the need for equitable treatment for all thosehardy souls who, whether native or immigrant, live andwork in the Arctic. That does not mean fullendorsement of the proposals recently made on behalfof northern natives prepared in several years ofresearch paid for by Canada's taxpayers. I regardthese as I would one side starting position in abusiness or diplomatic negotiation. I trust thatreasonable people on behalf of native organizationsand government will achieve a reasonable negotiatedsettlement of the claims.

I hope agreement inprinciple can be reached before a final governmentdecision on the Mackenzie Valley Pipeline. However,because of the urgency to all Canadians of gettingnorthern energy onstream early in the 1980's,requiring, sir, a pipeline decision by early 1977, Icannot endorse the proposition that there must be adetailed completion of settlement agreements inadvance of pipeline approval.

I appreciate the need forenvironmental protection. I recognize however thattotal environmental protection whether in the north orin the areas of human settlement in the south is animpossible dream. Wherever there is human or any otherform of animal life there is some degree ofenvironmental damage and pollution. We humans are


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capable of minimizing but not of eliminatingenvironmental damage, if we have the will and/orgovernments require it.

Incidentally, it isinevitable that humans including Canadians will finallyaccept that energy needs require some modifiedenvironmental protection standards. There will be aprice tag attached in terms of consumer costs. Forexample, much of the garbage in human or animal wasteshave now created a growing environmental problem, canbe converted in the future into heat for electricitygeneration and into methane gas and synthetic oils.There would be gain in terms of environment but thecost of conversion to energy with existing technologywould probably double or more the energy cost to whichCanadians and Americans have become accustomed.

Mining of our huge coalreserves create some environmental hazards and whethercoal is used in original form or is converted to gas oroil, cost to consumers will be much higher than we arenow paying. The same is true of mining of AthabascaTar Sands or U.S. Oil Shales, both in regard to someenvironmental hazards and higher costs. There areenvironmental hazards too in the expansion of nuclearpower production and even in such long-range permanentenergy developments as hydrogen from sea water andsolar power.

Now I firmly believe thatthose who are now engaged in Canada's northerndevelopment and those who hope to expand such development


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and provide transport links are very fully environmentalconscious. Their acceptance of a high degree ofenvironmental protection is not only because governmentand the public require it but also because simpleeconomics put a much higher price tag on the clean-up ofenvironmental damage than on adequate measure to minimizesuch dangers.

Now I ask myself thequestion, "why is there urgency for decisions onnorthern development?" First let me present a simpleset of facts.

First, Canada's northcontains a vast potential of such energy resources asoil, gas, coal, oil shales and sands, uranium andhydro-power generating capacity. The economic futureof Canada and the energy security of all Canadiansdepend in a large degree upon the massive developmentof that potential.

Secondly, mere potential asof energy such oil and gas under the Mackenzie Delta orunder the Beaufort Sea or under lands and waters of theArctic islands can do nothing sir to heat a home inOntario, fuel a family car in Quebec, generateelectricity in Nova Scotia, provide fuel or rawmaterial for industry across the nation or fuel allforms of transport in Canada, or protect Canadians fromcostly dependence on foreign energy.

Even when long and costlyefforts of men transform potential into oil and gasfields in the Arctic as has been done over recent years


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the energy discovered can do nothing to meet the needsof humanity and that brings me sir to the third simplefact.

Potential must become usable-- energy with the means in place to deliver it toplaces of need as much as 1500 to 3000 miles distantfrom the energy source. Achieving the means to delivernorthern energy takes both time and money. For exampleif favorable decisions for a Mackenzie Valley gaspipeline are reached early in 1977, late 1981 would bethe earliest date by which the system could befinanced, built and put into operation.

Now sir, you did raise thequestion earlier today of -- which was in line withcertain questions that had been raised by otherspeakers here and in other communities Did theGovernment of Canada, Energy Minister Joe Greene, theNational Energy Board or the oil and gas industry lieto the Canadian public in 1970 when according to thepeople who use the figures for our potential in thatyear say that they were "led down the river" asCanadians by super optimistic statements on Canada'senergy resources?

First of all sir there was nolying. The figures presented by the government and bythe industry consisted of several packages. One was afigure of potential and I outlined the differencebetween potential and crude reserves and usable energyin the earlier remarks. The potential in 1970consisted of the possible or potential reserves


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of oil and gas attached to each of the frontiers ofCanada in the Arctic, the Atlantic Seaboard, Hudson'sBay, offshore Labrador, west coast as well as thepotential still in many to be discovered in westernCanada.

It included also the verylarge amount of potential reserves which still exist inthe Athabasca Tar Sands. Now, that huge potential hasbeen altered somewhat by results of drilling good andbad in the years since but the mass of that potentialstill exists in Canada but it is not deliverableenergy. The reserves found in the Arctic won't becomeusable energy until the means exist to deliver thatenergy to consumers.

The huge potential of theAthabasca Tar Sands has been placed far behind theschedules of production that were seen a few years agobecause of the very rapid escalation of costs, ofmaterials, labor, and by new and tougher environmentalstandards that have actually quadrupled the cost ofproducing a barrel of synthetic oil from the AthabascaTar Sands. So that Canada, of necessity, now has tolook only at the reserves -- provable reserves -- whichcan actually be delivered over the next few years aheaduntil we can reach in to reserves in the frontiers orthe Tar Sands which hopefully can come onstream if wehave the economic climate that will support the fundingfor that kind of development.

Now sir I will be happy ifyou have any further questions on that subject, I'd be


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happy to answer them now or at the close of my remarks.Now, the question of the

rights and responsibilities of all Canadians. In myview, the rights and responsibilities of all Canadiansis to define, develop and transport northern energy asfast as humanly possible. That means a speed-up of therate at which decisions on the north are made. Theremust be a speed-up of attraction to huge amounts ofrisk capital that will literally stagger theimagination of most, including me.

Money must come from smallinvestors and large, from Canadian and foreign sourcesalike to accomplish the task of getting usable energyfrom the north by the early 1980's. The recentlypublished "Energy Strategy for Canada" has et as onetarget a minimum doubling the $700 million a year,exploration and development activity in Canada's northwithin three years under, says the report, "acceptablesocial environmental standards".

Now that target does notinclude the many billions of dollars needed to providetransport facilities but certainly without reasonableassurance of transport and markets the explorationmoney targets haven't got a hope in Hades of beingachieved. I might say that in Ottawa today, thereseems to be growing realism about the urgency offrontier development.

Now I noted earlier sir thatI have a bias and here are the reasons. For two-thirdsof my life, since 1937, 1 have been an editor and a


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publisher and close student of the Canadian oil and gasindustry and of a rapidly changing world in terms ofits energy sources of supply and hunger of energy amongits inhabitants. Long before OPEC lowered the boom in1973, I was warning of the dangers of energy crises inthe 1970's and '80's and in presentations both togovernments and citizen groups, we recommendingpolicies to provide North America especially Canada,with greater internal energy security.

Few Canadians were interestedin listening during the era of apparent cheap importedenergy. I might say sir I recall with particularrelish now my presentations in 1969 during my term aspresident of the Independent Petroleum Association ofCanada, detailed presentations of what lay ahead in the1970's made to the present Prime Minister of Canada andhis full Cabinet in Ottawa and made a few months laterat the Policy Conference of the party then and now ofthe official opposition. But it took the OPECquadrupling of prices of crude oil, accounting for 90percent of world transocean oil shipments and the Arabembargo on oil deliveries to nations supporting Israelto awaken the world in 1973 to the facts that the cheapenergy era is over and that over-dependence on OPECenergy has dangers.

Tragically, both in Canadaand the United States there is again widespreadcomplacence and a lack -- a sad lack of adequate senseof urgency.

I purposely referred to North


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America rather than Canada alone because the economicsof geography and major population centers long havedictated that Canadians could minimize their energycosts and improve the national economy by having UnitedStates markets carry a major share of energydevelopment and transportation burdens. That hasapplied to Alberta and other western oil and gas overthe past quarter century. It is at least equallyapplicable to northern energy.

Western Arctic and Arcticislands energy can be delivered to Canadians forhundreds of millions of dollars less per year if theunit transportation costs are kept at a minimum b yaccess to American markets. In the western Arctic,Canada must by speedy decision-making win the right tocarry the huge gas reserves of Alaska's Prudhoe Bay viathe Mackenzie Valley to American markets across thecontinent if it is to have an economically viable meansof connecting Mackenzie Delta - Beaufort gas tosouthern Canadian markets.

Indeed, sir, I seriouslyquestion whether any Canadian Arctic gas energy couldbecome usable energy if all the costs had to beabsorbed solely by Canadians as consumers or by thelevying of a heavy subsidy burden upon Canadians astaxpayers.

Over two decades ago, Ibegan putting my personal financial resources which arethen and now only a tiny fraction of 1 percent of thetotal capital needs into energy exploration and


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development in Canada's west. 16 years ago sir, Ijoined with others in the long-range and high risk taskof geological and drilling exploration in the Arcticislands. That was at a time sir when if Canadiansthought of the high Arctic at all, it was as a remote,frozen buffer zone between the Soviet Union andNorth America. Accept for a very few hundredhardy souls, even Eskimo found the high Arctic northof the Northwest Passage too severe for permanentliving.

Several years ago sir, I gaveup publishing to head a Canadian owned public andindependent energy company called ConVentures. It is ashareholder of PanArctic Oils Limited, the governmentindustry consortium exploring the Arctic islands. Italso has a stake in the proposed gas Arctic pipeline tolink Alaska - Mackenzie gas to North American marketsvia the Mackenzie Valley.

Much of that stems from majorinvestments ConVentures made in the company calledAlberta Natural Gas Company back in 1972, an actionwhich led subsequently to that company joining GasArctic. I might add that as fast as funds can begenerated or borrowed, ConVentures is risking it in oiland gas projects in western Canada and the Arctic.

Now let me be frank sir. Iexplore and develop partly because I have long realizedthat our Canada faces energy problems and I cannotreasonably expect my fellow Canadians to do somethingabout it unless I myself demonstrate a willingness so


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I do.Now I would like at this

point sir to comment off the cuff on the very fineaddress delivered by Chief John Snow of the StoneyIndian Reserve at Morley. I have known Stonies formany years. Forty years ago incidentally I worked for20 a day for 15 months on and off that reserve in theold days of the famous relief camps in the early'30's, conditions I never want to see return toCanada. But Chief Snow pointed out very eloquentlysomething of the problems of his particular Indianband, but there is one point that I regret that he didnot point out so I would like to point it out to younow.

Several years ago asubsidiary of Canadian Pacific began large scaleexploration under lease on the Stoney Indian Reserve.That exploration led to the discovery last year of alarge natural gas well containing condensate andsulphur as well as gas. Early this year, CanadianPacific drilled a second well following up the firstand has now established a major gas field on the StoneyIndian Reserve. In recent days, arrangements have beenmade between the Indian band and the Indian AffairsDepartment and this Canadian Pacific unit calledPanCanadian for a lease upon which will be built amajor gas extraction and liquid processing plant whichwill not only generate opportunities for new kinds ofemployment long-term for members of the reserve butperhaps more important, will generate a source of


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revenue for the members of the Stoney Band that willexceed under the existing royalty and tax and rentalarrangements, will exceed the ultimate net profits thatwould be derived by the company which sought for,drilled for, discovers and will now develop at its ownexpense this gas field on the Stoney Reserve.

For one, I am happy that theStonies have a much brighter future to look forward tothan has been the case for this particular band inrecent years.

I might say also one point inpassing and this happened only a few weeks ago and itsa sharp contrast of what some of things you haveexperienced in your hearings in the north and here.The head Chief of the Indian band at Saddle LakeReserve in central Alberta appeared before an AlbertaGovernment, Surface Rights Board a few weeks ago toprotest very strongly and eloquently that his Indianband were being deprived of the revenues they should beearning from the gas field found by my company andothers on their reserves six years ago but could not bemarketed despite the fact that gas plant, pipelines,everything else were hooked up ready for last fallsimply because there was opposition from certain whiteowners along the proposed pipeline route from theSaddle Lake gas plant into the main line of Alberta GasTrunk.

His appeal was a valid one.He told that government hoard that he and the membersof his Saddle Lake Indian Band felt that they were


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entitled (and they were and are )to start deriving therevenues as royalty and rent that have stemmed and willstem in the future from the gas fields found undertheir Indian reserve by private enterprise companies.There again an Indian hand is going to reap largeresources, large benefits in the future. I hope thatboth plus all other Indian bands and Eskimo bands andothers who may share in royalty and other returns fromnatural resources will recognize the same kind ofwisdom that is now being recognized by the AlbertaGovernment and that is that a portion of the revenuesgained from resources which are depleting should be setaside as a heritage of future generations in order thatthe capital and the income thereon can go on extendingits benefits to the natives of Canada in one case, thepeople of Alberta, the other people of Alberta in theother, for generations to come.

Well now to come back to myown brief, the ultimate objective of investment is ofcourse to make a profit and without that incentiveneither I nor you nor any other commonsense personwould gamble his assets in high risk ventures. Theprofit motive is a key factor in the risking so far ofover $25 billion in western Canadian energy projectsand in the spending to date of over 11/2 billiondollars in the northern areas of Canada in explorationby big companies and small by foreign investors andCanadians.

It is a factor also sir inthe spending so far that more than $100 million by the


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Gas Arctic consortium of Canadian and Americancompanies and engineering, ecological, environmental,and economic studies for a Mackenzie Valley Pipelineand a presentation of its case at governmental hearingsin two countries. Governments in Canada and elsewherealso are assuming a greater role in energy including inCanada, the accepting of part of the high riskinvestment. I have no strong objections to governmentssharing in risks provided they do so in termscomparable to that/individual investors. Butgovernments must either tax to pay for their part inenergy projects o more likely borrow against futureincome and leaving citizens to pay both the principaland interest in future taxes.

Put bluntly, there is nopanacea for Canadians in having governments take over amajor part of the role of future energy developmentsince it cannot match the efficiency in risk takingwillingness of a host of competing private sectorcorporations.

Now oil and gas had beendiscovered in the Canadian Arctic but none has yet beenproduced to generate revenue. Mackenzie Delta shallowwaters nearby so far come up with possibly seventrillion cubic feet of natural gas in the form ofcrude, probable and possible reserves in existingstructures but not yet enough to support either a gaspipeline serving Canadian markets from the delta, oilreserves at the moment roughly one billion barrels, notenough to support an oil pipeline. More drilling and


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testing of known structures is needed to more priceprecisely determine reserves just as much more drillingof other structures including those in the Beaufort Seais needed to determine the ultimate potential for oiland gas.

Arctic islands have so farindicated up to 15 trillion cubic feet of gas provedprobable possible and possibly 200 million barrels ofoil according to PanArctic Oils. These are not yetenough to support transport systems but the potentialfor much more reserves exist. Some time in 1977,PanArctic and other sponsors of a polar gas line fromthe islands hope to have sufficiently advanced Lengineering economic environmental planning and thesize of gas reserves to apply for approval of a costlypipeline system and then start the kind of rounds ofhearings that have been involved in the MackenzieValley.

Many more billions of dollarsmust be attracted and spent before the first dollar ofcash flow can come, before a northern potential canbecome usable energy. Risk dollar flow into the northwill drastically cut down or dry up, leaving the Arcticto resume its role of centuries past or to become atarget for other nations such as those across polar iceunless there is soon some assurance that productioncash flow can be achieved within the next few years.

Now I'd like to close off myremarks sir with a few points that have not beenbrought before you before. That is that over the past


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three years since OPEC actions brought public concernabout energy, a combination of both decisions and non-decisions by governments in Canada have led to ournation this year being less than self-sufficient inbalance of hydrocarbon energy. Not enough has beendone to curb wasteful use of energy within the nationalthough a government drive is now underway to try toget citizens to conserve. Oil exports have been cutdrastically so the crude western province oil fieldscan be stretched out for an extra year or two beforeOntario, like Quebec and the Maritimes now becomesheavily dependent on foreign oil.

Oil imports now exceedexports creating a hefty international trade deficit onpetroleum account. Natural gas supplies from westernprovinces, especially Alberta, where exploration hasrecently been accelerated are serving Canadians fromthe Pacific to Quebec in addition to honoring exportcontracts that have made the development of reservesand the economic deliveries to Canadians possible.

The gas exports this year sirwill generate over 11/2 billion dollars in U.S. dollarearnings. The Canadian needs and exports contracts canbe met in the years immediately ahead but unlessnorthern gas can be provided in the early 1980's,Canada may be forced into stretching western suppliesby curtailing exports below contract levels or evencutting them out thus further worsening a balance ofpayments deficit that is already very serious.

Last year Canada suffered a


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deficit of about $5 1/2 billion, three times largerthan ever before in any year. This year the deficit isnow forecasted still larger. I am hopeful that Canadawill bite the bullet sufficiently to improve thenation's chances of successfully competing in foreignmarkets with enlarged Canadian exports of foodstuffs,manufactured goods and ally but unless we take stepsfast to expand energy development and get northernenergy flowing before the end of l982, meaningdecisions and start of the Mackenzie line in '77,Canada's oil and gas balance of payments alone willrise to as much as $5 billion per year putting thewhole Canadian economy in a grave position.

Internally, Canada'sgovernment is bearing a heavy burden because of itsdecision to try and insulate Canadians from the impactof OPEC oil price boosts. Now Ottawa and the provinceshave accepted the principle that there's a heavy pricetag for all Canadians from the kind of moves made inhaste after the 1973 OPEC action, Internal gas and oilprices are being allowed to gradually over a term ofseveral years advance to world levels. Canadians willpay at the pump for gasoline and to their utilities fornatural gas instead of the present system ofsubsidizing oil imports through the taxpayers andthrough the incentive reducing net price levels leftfor oil and gas explorers.

Excessive producing profitsand federal royalty and tax levies that cream off75 percent or more of oil and gas price increases


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allowed are being gradually modified. Governments arebeginning to realize sir that costs of replacingpresent oil and gas reserves with new supplies in thewest, the north, from tar sands, coal conversion andother means are all far higher than costs of the past.That means that production must net more explorationdollars per barrel of oil or cubic foot of gas andbillions of dollars of new capital must be attracted tostart a reversal in the early 1980's of the presentunhappy energy outlook.

Now, my time has run out,sir I still have more to say but I'll close withoutreading through the rest with one comment, that overthe decade ahead through 1985, Canada will be forcedto go into external debt by many billions of dollarsto pay for imported energy. My estimate sir is thatCanada will go in the hole on energy account aloneat least $25 billion between now and 1985 and thatif we try to stretch out our reserves by delayingdelivery of Arctic supplies, that deficit sir forthe next decade could run as high as $40 billion andthat $40 billion external payments deficit sir I'mafraid that your country and mine will be going downthe same road to national bankruptcy that has beenthe grievous problem of Britain and Italy in recentyears.

That is something I do notwant to see all of my fellow Canadians and my countrygo through the lack of wisdom, the lack of willingnessto make decisions in this year, 1976.


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Thank you sir for listening.(APPLAUSE)THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you

Mr. Nickle. Thank you very much.MR. WADDELL: Mr. Nickle, if

you have a copy of brief, the secretary wouldappreciate it. Thank you Mr. Nickle.(SUBMISSION OF CARL NICKLE MARKED AS EXHIBIT #C-316)


Commissioner, I have a brief that was handed to me.Perhaps I could file it and if you like, I could give ashort summary of it.

THE COMMISSIONER: All right.MR. WADDELL: Its from the

Alberta Plura, P-l-u--r-a-, a provincial arm of theNational Plura Association which is an inter-churchassociation to promote social justice in Canada. Thebrief was filed by Sister Freda Gatzke, G-a-t-z-k-e whois a chairperson for the Alberta Plura.

In her brief she says thatthere five participating churches in this organization,the Presbyterian, Lutheran, United, Roman Catholic andAnglican. The Alberta Plura is in agreement with thestatements made by the Canadian Catholic Conference ofBishops in September 1975 and that statement made bythe General Synod of the Anglican Church of Canada inJune 1975 and the Department of Church and SocietyDivision of Mission in Canada, United Church of Canadain September l975.


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The Alberta Plura feels that"We as Canadians have a unique opportunity tobring native and non-native Canadians into apartnership in the development of the north ina way that could be a source of pride to allCanadians."

She defines the partnership as through the Webster'sDictionary as:

"One who joins into an activity with another; aplayer on the same team."

The group urges the Federal Government to:a. Introduce a moratorium on major resource

development projects in the north in order thatsufficient planning time be given to:1. Just settlement of native land claims.2. Native people become full partners in thestudy and growth development of the north.

b. Re-examine policy positions on the aboriginalrights of the Nishka, the Dene and the Inuit ofthe Northwest Territories."

Further in the brief there iscomment, upon foreign consumption habits and economicpower that are insisting that these oil and gasresources be moved to market and some criticism ofthat. The brief also emphasizes the waste of resourcesand this waste being a cause of great ecologicalproblems. Finally, the brief says:

"Let us measure our success in the developmentof the north in partnership with our neighborsnorth and south."


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That's the brief and I'll file that.(THE SUBMISSION OF THE ALBERTA PLURA ASSOCIATION MARKEDAS EXHIBIT # C-317)

THE COMMISSIONER: Fine.MR. WADDELL: I would call

upon Alan Wolfleg, who is from the Blackfoot Reserveand will speak for the Blackfoot Reserve.

On our list, we have theCalgary Urban Treaty. That's wrong. It's theBlackfoot Reserve and Mr. Commissioner this is Mr.Wolfleg.

ALAN WOLFLEG sworn;THE WITNESS: Thank you for

the opportunity to appear before you. On behalf of theBlackfoot Reserve and this brief was supposed to begiven by Chief Leo Pretty Man of the Black Reserve buthe's on a call to Edmonton.

The proposed Mackenzie ValleyPipeline reflects different notions in this Inquiryfrom various segments of the Canadian society, Wheneconomic or, social ventures occur such as thisproposed project, people try to interpret the possibleeffects such as such ventures would have on theirlives. In short, we all to a certain degree explaineconomic and social phenomena in the light of our ownpersonal standing in the economy of Canada.

It is easier for a povertystricken person to be sympathetic with the povertyproblem than the rich man. It is much easier for the


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conservative to be concerned with pollution,preservation than will the metro urban dweller. It iseasy for an Indian to be protective of his environmentwhich is nature, economically, socially, culturally,spiritually than a body of giant corporations.

Looking at our own experienceon the Blackfoot Reserve, looking at the settlement ofthe west, development of the west, the economic processthat these reserves enjoy has been paid for in terms ofhuman lives. Not only is it a struggle against theelements of nature but a social, political andeconomical struggle in nature too.

The offshoots of hunger forenergy, oil, gas and other products we get from theearth, the over-riding and basic problems in all itsvarying degrees of intensity confronting these peopleis poverty and underdevelopment with all its relevantand attendant symptoms, high rate of employment, lowrate of education achievements in terms of levels,inadequacy of education, cultural disorganization interms of destruction and social crippling of a wholecommunity in terms of families in the community units,alienization from a non-Indian society, conflicts withthe law, alcohol and drug abuse, moral decay,overcrowding and deteriorating housing, substandardpreventative medical service, frustration and one veryimportant prevailing social attitude which must bechanged if an effective development of the environmentwhere any exploitation or exploration are taking placeis one of apathy.


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As a result of these symptomsthe potentials, abilities and self-reliance of Indianpeople remain largely undeveloped and as a group havealienated remained and virtually non-participated inthe surrounding of larger Canadian society social andeconomic life. These realities are hard to visualizethat they do exist on the relentless prairie horizonwhich is prosperous and picturesque.

Looking at it from thesouthern Alberta point of view, there are five reservesin southern Alberta. You look at these reserves andyou wonder whether you are a layman, a lawyer or apolitician, from what perspective you look at it, youhave your own opinion but when you look at it from thispoint of view even since the days of Turner Valley,Calgary has been know and been associated with oil.Through some reports, Calgary hosts a large number ofmajor companies who are in the oil and gas business andby assets and sales, Calgary places third in Canadawhen they accommodate some companies in terms of officelocation.

Even an Arctic Institute ofNorth America which was formerly located at McGillUniversity in Montreal is located now in Calgary at theUniversity of Calgary as a logical location for aCanadian Arctic Research Center, The list goes on and onwhy Calgary is important as an administrative financialservice center of oil, gas, sulphur, service and supplyindustries. In short, Calgary is a vibrant, bustlingand big league and big star in Canadians' economic


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galaxy but what is happening in the surrounding Indiancommunities at its doorstep and that includes theprairie communities, including farms, small towns?

The situation beingexperience by these communities is somewhat in a smallscale especially on the reserve in comparison with theCanadian society we have a very disorganized culturewhich have levels -- let's say progress and a part ofthis progress level is the affluent well-to-do familyand at the bottom is the affluent poor, welfare who areactually -- we talk about poverty. The money is therebut still these over-riding basic problems I've justmentioned exist.

Somebody asked that he'sconfused about culture. Today, that evidence I gave insocial problems and economic problems is the culturethat's been developed through contact with the whitesociety and I think sociologists call it "born fromanother culture". Indian people borrow it but theydon't know how to utilize. In one hundred years, whatcan you learn?

There is when we talk aboutIndian culture, we talk about in terms of the wholetotal sum of the way of life but when we look at itclosely we look at it as the modern way of life thatyou see today that we are talking about today that'sgoing to be affected. There is another base to thatand that's the ancestral cultural which has a stronglink with the natural life and this is the link thatlinks the Indian people wherever they are with


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their environment. This is the only environment theyknow through generations and they're very much a partof it.

Looking at it from theBlackfoot Reserve, we do support the Dene people in thenorth in their fight for a land settlement before apermit is issued. We often answer a question or answera question on one hand, the government is looking afterus but then we ask another question on the other hand.Why are they permitting leases for exploration tocorporations which conflicts with desolvement ofaboriginal rights in parts or partially?

I want to leave you with onearea in this brief. The brief will be sent to Mr.Berger. I'm just reading the outline. We couldharness nature. We could harness nature and its forcesbut there is something we could never be free of andthat's the laws that control nature and man.

Thank you very much.(APPLAUSE) (WITNESS ASIDE)MR. WADDELL: Mr.

Commissioner I call next Roy Littlechief, who is withthe Calgary Urban Treaty Indian Alliance.

ROY LITTLECHIEF sworn;THE WITNESS: Thank you very

much. I guess first of all you know I'd like to youknow, welcome Berger to Treaty Seven, southern Alberta.

This paper is an expression ofdeep humanitarian concern for the northern indigenousplus people whose legal, political, socio-economic and


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cultural will be forever destroyed through the ulteriormotive of the crass insensitive commercial pursuit bythe Department of Indian Affairs and NorthernDevelopment and the large corporations.

This hundred years ischaracterized by the so-called orderly development inthe following areas: economic, Indian environment,geographic location of reserves and very limitednatural resources creates economic stagnation and inturn creates a welfare state perpetuating socialregression. As we all know since that time thesouthern Indians have not the political cloth nor theword to have any say or any social economiccircumstances. Why because it is the carry over of theneo-colonial totalitarian bureaucratic mentality ofOttawa, namely the Department of Indians Affairs andNorthern Development all at the harsh expense of theIndians with no regard but the promotion of the FederalGovernment and big business self-interests.

Therefore, an extensiverevamping and evaluation of the approaches that theyboth partly employ must be preceded prior to danglinganymore carrots to the Indian people. By that we meanthat they given immediate recognition to our aboriginaland treaty rights and living up to them through theconcrete and positive action on their part. FederalGovernment, Department of Indian Affairs and bigbusiness must take care to nurture the social andeconomic factors of the indigenous plus people on aslow and careful base otherwise the same harsh bitter


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lessons that occurred in the south will surface again,cultural breakdown, self-destruction, alcoholism jails,despair, high rate of racial division, erosion ofspiritual life and values, urban dislocation,polarization of culture rather than fitting into theCanadian mosaic, intercultural division and suspicionand negative self-image.

The most hideous fact of thisis that the Department of Indian Affairs is supposed tobe the guardian and trustee for the original people ofthis country then they turn around against theirmandate practising malphesians and non-phesians(?)which means the Minister is liable to answer in thecourts of this country and to the people of Canada bypractising the above too. This is done under the guiseof improving the lot and lives of the Indian people.

We sincerely hope that theBerger hearing is not an exercise in futility on ourpart. When your findings have been written,opportunity to read it, discuss it in order that nomisunderstandings or misinterpretations will bepresent. This will mean true and faithful consultationin turn, this will create some semblance ofcredibility, trust and confidence on your part. Theonus is now up to the Parliament of Canada.

Briefly, you know, I'd liketo say that, you know, we have a lot of problems asfar as, you know, what some of the things that werebrought out by some of the previous speakers is thata lot of our people lived under welfare state and


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also high unemployment, low education and so on.It's pitiful you know, to have leadership makingstatements of such people as the leader of Calgary.Rut I think as far as you know, the mayor can havelunches with oil people in the city all time but heforgets that are five reserves surrounding Calgary.I think these are some of the things -- (APPLAUSE)

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank youvery much sir.


Commissioner I'm calling as the next brief, MissClaudette Crouteau who is with the Canadian UniversityService Overseas, CUSO, at the University of Calgary.Miss Crouteau?

MISS CLAUDETTE CROUTEAU sworn;THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, go

ahead.THE WITNESS: I'd like to

make the following presentation on behalf of the memberof the CUSO local committee of the University ofCalgary and it shall be very brief.

CUSO is an independentdevelopment agency which provides technical andprofessional assistance to Third World countries who sorequest it. We support specific development projectinitiated and directed by Third World governments,groups or individuals through volunteer participationor financial and material contributions.

CUSO's experience in the


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Third World has led to a clearer understanding of therelations between the rich and poor nations and of theinternational process of development. Development aswe understand it and as stated in our charter includesthe freeing of people not just from the constraints ofpoverty, hunger and disease but also from constraintswhich inhibit a person's control over his destiny, thepursuit of dignity and social equality.

CUSO's aims are toparticipate in the global struggle for justice,equitable development and human progress. Thestruggles of Canada's native people is very similarto that of the Third World in that both are seekingto be mettrez chez nous. The Dene and Inuit peopleof the Northwest Territories are now asking thatthey be given the right self-determination in havingcontrol over development which will affect theirdaily lives.

We southern Canadians feelboth the moral and ethical responsibility regarding theissues Of northern development. The Mackenzie ValleyPipeline is a vehicle for encouraging wasteful NorthAmerican consumption patterns. Will this greed fornorthern resources prove so overpowering that peoplewill be put second to economic growth and profit

What the Dene and Inuitpeoples are asking is the same as what French Canadianswere granted historically, the right to govern theirown affairs, The Dene Declaration asks for no more thandid Louis Riel in his Bill of Rights of 1870. This


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Bill of Rights was later accepted by Parliamentas the Manitoba Act and became the founding documentfor that province.

If we are truly to be a justsociety then how can we refuse the demands of theflatly people? Although Canada does not have a historyof being a colonial master such as Britain or France,in trying to subdue the native people of this country,we are guilty of perpetuating a colonial mentality. Bydenying native peoples the right of self-determinationare we not following the same policy as the whiteminority government of South Africa which denies thebasic human rights of the native blacks?

A pipeline without controland direct involvement of native people throughout allphases of planning and operation can only serve toreinforce southern colonialism at the expense of thenative people.

There are countless occurrencein which the native people in the south have sufferedwhich have taught northern natives that they must havecontrol over the development of their land. An exampleof such an occurrence was the construction of the well-known, W.A.C. Bennett Dam in 1967. This dam was builtwithout consultation of the people whose lives weredrastically affected by it. The environmental andsociological implications were not considered. Thebuilding of this dam and its water reservoir drasticallyreduced the natural outflow of the Peace River into thePeace Athabasca Delta of northern Albert. In the


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delta, thrived a community largely composed of Cree,Chipewyan and Metis people whose livelihoods werederived from traditional hunting, trapping and fishingactivities.

The economy of Fort Chipewyanlargely depended on the annual inundation and siltdeposits of the Peace River for the survival of itsrich water and animal life. Consequent consecutive lowwater years which followed had detrimental effects uponthe community. A once proud, self-sufficient peoplewere forced to depend on government assistance as ameans of support.

Are we also to rob the nativepeople of the north of their self-dignity?

To conclude, we stronglysupport the native land claims of the Dene and Inuitpeople of the north. Thank you.(THE SUBMISSION BY CUSO MARKED AS EXHIBIT # C-3l8)

(APPLAUSE)(WITNESS ASIDE)MR. WADDELL: Is there a

representative of Arnav Marine Limited here? No, thereisn't.

I'm sorry apparently Arnav asI have on the list, is the parent of Lindberg Transportof Fort Simpson, the parent company that is and so Iwould call Albert Irye, I-r-y-e and he can explainwhich company he is appearing for. Mr. Irye?

ALBERT IRYE sworn;THE WITNESS: Mr. Commissioner,


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my credentials and accomplishments are not nearly asimpressive as those of others who have preceded me,particularly Mr. Nickles, and although we do sharethe same anxieties and concerns, I with my partnerEdwin Lindberg operate a tug and barge operation,Lindberg Transport Limited, and this company wasstarted by Edwin Lindberg out of Fort Simpson andduring the peak of the excitement and interest in1973 and '74, in the hope that the pipeline would getapproval fairly rapidly, we were able to seek andobtain financial assistance from other companies in thesouth and were able to undertake a program of expansionin equipment and also go into other types of marineconstruction such as dredging and the building ofartificial islands.

Edwin Lindberg of course is anative northerner and by his own description havingbeen born under a willow bush on the Liard River andI've worked in the north since 1945 and during thattime, I have maintained fairly cordial relations with alot of the local northerners. I cannot be persuadedthat all residents along the Mackenzie Valley areagainst the development of the petroleum industry andthe pipeline.

I think there is a solidmajority of northern natives who are quite willing tosee development and they are of course concerned withthe problems of the environment and the social aspectsbut I think, you know, there has been such a delayand in presenting I don't whether" demands is the


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right word -- their demands for a land settlement andit -- I'm sure I speak for a lot of the smallbusinessmen in the north, it has a very detrimentaleffect on business as a whole.

For instance, in our ownorganization where during that peak period of '73-74,we employed a minimum of a hundred people and,compared with today's payroll of ten and I thinkcompanies that we're working beside in Hay River andFort Simpson and other parts of the north areexperiencing the same cutbacks and further than that,our ability to raise funds for expansion and up-grading of equipment has been just cut off. Ourinvestors are not willing to advance monies now thatyou know, conditions are so disruptive and there areso many uncertainties.

Mostly companies operating inthe north work on a time-off basis which fits in quitewell with the traditional hunting and fishing habits ofthe natives. A lot of this is due to the seasonalnature of our work and the disruptions of break up andfreeze up and I think it really fits in with the way oflife of the northerner.

The delays we'veexperienced so far and at least reaching an agreementin principle regarding the pipeline have caused fearsin ourgroup that the pipeline will be driven right out ofthe Mackenzie Valley, particularly so now thatNorthwest Pipelines has announced the intentions of


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filing their proposal by July the 9th as well as thepending Polar Gas application and El Paso. We thinkthat unless some fairly rapid decisions are reached,the people -in the Mackenzie Valley will lose outcompletely on development.

I think that about coverswhat I have to say.

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr. Irye,are you living in Fort Simpson today?

A In Hay River.Q One thing that you

should understand is that our National Energy Board Acthas always provided that no one could build a pipelinewithout a certificate of public convenience andnecessity from the National Energy Board so that as Iunderstand the law of our country, it is in the finalanalysis for the National Energy Board to decidewhether they believe it is in the public interest for apipeline to be built and you must understand that whenthis Inquiry has finished its work, my job is to tellthe government what I think the impact will be in thenorth and to recommend the terms and conditions underwhich a pipeline should be built if one is to be built,to examine the long-term impact of gas pipelinefollowed by an oil pipeline.

Now, the matter still has tobe determined by the National Energy Board. They arenot a rubber stamp. They are there to consider whetherthey should grant either Arctic Gas or Foothills, acertificate of public convenience and necessity so that


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even when the work of this Inquiry is completed, youand those businessmen in the north and I've heard frommany of them who are depending on this pipeline toenable your business to prosper, you'll still have toawait the judgment of the National Energy Board andthen of the Government of Canada, and those are thefacts of life.

Another point you raised thatperhaps is worth commenting on, I appreciate yourtaking the trouble to appear here sir. You see, thisis a public Inquiry and we conduct our business inpublic and that's why you are here, to tell us publiclywhat you think. When we went to the villages andsettlements in the north where the native people live,we asked them to tell the Inquiry what they thought andwe stayed for a day, two days, three days, four days,five days until everyone who wanted to speak had had anopportunity to do so.

In many of those villageswe heard from I am certain, the majority and in somevillages, virtually all of the adult persons, men andwomen in the village and we wanted them to tell uswhat they thought. Not what they might think you andI would like them to tell us but what they haddecided in their own hearts and in their own mindsthey must say. So, we tried in that way to find outwhat the attitudes of those people who live in theMackenzie Valley, the Mackenzie Delta and on theperimeter of the Beaufort Sea really were and theytold me with virtual unanimity that they wanted their


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land claims settled before any major development suchas a pipeline took place.

Now, there are businessmenin the north like yourself who say to me just as yousaid, you said, "I cannot be persuaded that thesepeople are really against the pipeline". We have to -- it seems to me we have to regard what these peoplesay to us -- the native people say to us as what theyreally think, what they really want us to know in thesame way as I accept what you say as what you havedecided you must say to me. I want you to understandthat- I have tried to make sure that those people wholive in the north had every opportunity freely to tellme what was really going on in their heads and that'swhy we went to virtually every community. That's whywe give people the opportunity to speak in their ownlanguages as well as in English and occasionally inFrench.

I think that I'm trying tosay to you that I am going to have to rely upon whatthey told me to determine what their attitudes andtheirß beliefs and their hopes and their fears are. Ithink if we adopt that attitude toward each other,we'll begin to learn and to understand each other.

At any rate, I just want youto know I appreciate your coming forward and I've heardfrom your colleagues in the business community in thenorth and I have on more than one occasion remindedthem that notwithstanding whatever this Inquiry reportmay say, you'll still have to await the judgement of


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the National Energy Board and then of the Government ofCanada on this whole pipeline question.

Anyway, thank you very much.A I know there's a great

reluctance on the part of some of the native people toappear at your hearings because of a natural shynessand the reason I'm here is because my partner EdLindberg expressed or told me that you know he would betoo embarrassed to come and I'm sure there's a lot ofthese people who have not spoken out because of justsheer shyness.

Q Well, I think you'reright but many people are very shy but I think weovercame that in the villages. In Old Crow, virtuallyevery adult person and many of the teenagers spoke. Ina village with something like 200 people, 80 spoke inOld Crow. That experience was more or less repeated inevery village. Not to the same extent but -- andbecause we stayed till two and three in the morning andthen stayed overnight and then another night and thenanother night if that should be necessary I thinkpeople did feel free to speak to me and to those whoaccompanied me.

So, I'm sorry if Mr. Lindbergdidn't take advantage of that when we were in Hay Riverbut we heard from the white community in Hay River andthen to make sure that the native people of Hay Riverfelt free to come forward, we held a meeting in the HayRiver Indian village so that they wouldn't feel thatthey had to step forward in the presence of people that


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in whose presence they might feel shy.At any rate --A Thank you very much.THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.(APPLAUSE) (WITNESS ASIDE)MR. WADDELL: Is Leo

Littlebear here? Is Reverend Glenn Willms? ReverendWillms is present his brief now.

REVEREND GLENN WILLMS sworn;THE WITNESS: You honor, I am

the chairperson for a church and energy Conferencewhich was held February the 11th called by the Churchand Society Committee of the United Church of Canadaserving in this area. There are representatives ofthat committee here this afternoon and perhaps you'dlike to see them stand to indicate their support ofthis short brief.

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank youvery much ladies and gentlemen.

A In a concillator churchsuch as ours, it is not possible for one person tospeak for the whole church but about 80 representativesof the churches met in this city to have dialogue withthose of high calibre and advanced knowledge concerningthe Mackenzie Valley.

We sought to raise anddeliberate upon the ethical issues involved in theconstruction of the proposed pipeline and ourconsultants were a social scientist, Professor JamesFrideres, a geologist consultant, Mr. Murray MacDonald,


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an environmental scientist Professor Larry Bliss,petroleum engineer with responsibility for frontierexplorations Mr. Douglas Brown', native student socialworker with experience in the Northwest Territories,Deanna Greyeyes and an ethicist Professor KarenPenelhum.

In making this briefpresentation, we do so with commendation for youropenness, your thoroughness and your obvious concernfor justice.

First under social sciencefactors. Development of any region has to destroy partof the culture of the land so there must be interplayof the relevant factors. There are only a few northernpockets where nothing is happening and most Inuit haveacquired similar tastes and customs to those of whitesand the psychology of their culture has switched. Itis no longer pragmatic to try to recapture theprimitive.

In addition, there is a greatdiversity of ethnic origins, color shades and culturesin the north as well as a complex of color bars.Native people are not opposed in our understanding todevelopment but want a piece of the action. They don'tall have the skills to qualify for work in mineralexploration and development and are opposed onlybecause they feel left out.

Geologist consultant, theBeaufort Basin in the Mackenzie Delta appears to be theonly frontier area from which oil or gas can he made


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available in time to meet the 1985 demand. Attempts torestore domestic self-sufficiency must start with ademand curve. Canada is the second highest petroleumconsuming nation in the world despite its steadydownward trend in both reserves and productability.Frontier development costs will be so high that demandmust be reduced in the future to the extent of evendrastic changes in lifestyle.

Environmental factors. Thenorthern challenge is to determine how much we candevelop with minimum damage. We all live in a timescale in which we try to do more than we can.Historically, native northerners have always livedclose to water because it provides more food than theland, important for people who have to get by on theirown.

Mainly the landscape isdevoid of animals especially in winter but specificconcentrations of certain edible types makes itpossible for people with no agricultural potential tolive off the animals which live off the vegetationwhich is not suitable for people. However there is alimited base for support of large numbers of peopleunless there is significant hydrocarbon energy resourcedevelopment.

However, the native landclaims must be settled as a key issue and terms forpetroleum development must be spelled out before anything starts. There must be adequate education offield workers. Pipelines can be built in an


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environmentally sound manner and are essential as thebase for many related projects.

Energy resources and therelativity of the north. We have to do somethingquickly about the energy growth rate. Zero growth isessential as a target and conservation an absolutenecessity. We cannot continue a five percentexponential growth rate of finite sources. Half of ourtotal energy use is wasted but much can be saved byapplication of existing efficiencies to reduce thedemand drain but the largest potential future reservesso heavily in the Arctic, there should be emphasis onconversion to alternatives including those other thancoal which at present is the most abundant energyresource with an estimated 100 billion tons.

Native concerns, Land is thelife. That seems to sum up the native outlook as weheard it. We are not against development but we wantto be part of it. This is the basis for the primaryconcern about land settlement to determine who are therightful owners so the developers can deal directlywith them, The Inuit and Dene do not want to bedependent on the Federal Government in the future andsee ownership of land as the basis for a new autonomy.The desire for a piece of the action is felt to betheir right, "We also want to be able to they sayadapt, to changing conditions in our own speed to us.

Now are the ethical aspects.Ethical aspects of northern development can besummarized as the search for rational and reasonable


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compromise between significant but temporary alleviationof energy needs and the inevitable cost in terms ofdisruption of a way of life and possible permanentdisturbance to the landscape and wildlife. The utilityapproach creates the problem of whether this will bringthe greatest benefit to the majority or violate rightsof minority groups which should be protected. It isdifficult to determine the proper priorities betweenthem. However, if industrial society can't come toterms with a. supportable growth rate and reduce theconcept of continuous expansion, its way of life willfall apart anyway.

In conclusion, our dialoguebrought out the following issues.1. The concept of a need to research further energysupplies and a warning to the pubic that nonrenewableresources are rapidly diminishing.2. That the automobile consumption requiring 15% ofall non-renewable resources be curtailed and that a 50-mile-an-hour speed limit on highways be established.3. That attention be given the Berger Commissionfindings and that the church participate in informingitself and the public.

From our conference, therewere these five resolutions passed unanimously: thatthis conference recommend establishment of guidelinesfor northern energy reserve development which willrecognize the following principles:1. Settlement of native land ownership andcompensation before any development may proceed.


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2. Extraction of the resources at a rate which willnot be excessive in relation to the best estimate ofdomestic requirements and the rate of export necessaryto maintain and develop viable and economic conditions.3. That administration be structured to provide forparticipation by people who understand the localproblems.4. Orderly development reflecting the results ofsufficient research to ensure an understanding of whatis to be done and why.5. A long-range program for self-development of thenative people with a view to achieving a useful andhelpful degree of education and integration whileretaining the right to enjoy the native way of life attheir own initiative.

Thank you.THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you

very much. Please convey my thanks to the members ofyour delegation too sir.

A Thank you.(SUBMISSION OF REVEREND GLENN WILLMS MARKEDEXHIBIT C-319)

(WITNESS ASIDE)


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MR. WADDELL: Mr.Commissioner. We'd like to call as our next brief abrief from the American Indian Movement. I'd call uponEd Burnstick and Nelson Small Legs. While they'recoming up. I wonder if Mr. Stan Jones is here, or arepresentative from the Canadian Association of OilWell Drilling contractors, or Lorraine Allison, or Mr.R.J. Danzer? If they're here, could they come up?

ED BURNSTICK andNELSON SMALL LEGS unsworn:WITNESS BURNSTICK: First of

all, I'd like to welcome Berger to Calgary, Alberta,guess you've heard the for and against the developmentof the north on the Mackenzie Pipeline, I think it thistime you've heard a lot of facts and different thingsthat have happened across Canada on development.

I want to take just a littleit of your time to present the three areas the last,the present, and the future of Canada.

We talk about a society,Canadian society. We talk about ourselves asCanadians, and yet in the past, in the past I don'tknow how many hundred years, the Canadian Governmenthas failed the people of Canada native people ofCanada. They have filed them in education, they havefailed them n social adjustment, they have failed themin education of opportunities, in every field you canthink of, in he last 20 years.

People say, "That is the past,"


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but the past -- the scars of the past are still here andwe're still suffering from those scars.

When we talk about failure,when Mr. Buchanan himself does not recognize that, whenthey have failed the native people of Canada and of theStates that the Dene Declaration was done by a Grade 10student, what does he expect? Those red-neckedattitudes should not come out to the press because Ithink the native people of Canada and of the north havetried to be part of this society, and have beenterribly failed by the government and society itself.

The past in different areasof Canada there has been development which is affectingus today. The mercury poisoning in Kenora; in theJames Bay where there's 150 families homeless, havenowhere to turn; in different areas where people haveexpressed what has happened to them as a result ofdevelopment. I feel that in speaking for some of theAmerican Indian Movement people across Canada andUnited States that these things should be consideredtoday as to where the native people stand in society.Are they accepted as part of the society, or will theCanadian Government walk all over them again?

In the present, theunderstanding and co-operation of all groups of people,Indian and non-Indian, can only help the Dene people inwhat they want, from what I understand that they want,apart and be part of the development of the north andhave some say. I think that we cannot look at thedevelopment of the north to be developed rapidly. We


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cannot Look at it in dollars and cents. We have tolook at it in human rights. The human rights of thenative people of the north and not only Indian peoplebut ton-Indian people also; we have to look at thisarea s to where we're going to be developing non-recyclable energy, and I feel that if the government,oil companies and privileged groups force the nativepeople to violent action, it's not going to benefitanybody, Indian people or non-Indian people.

I feel that when it gets downto things such as this, as being a country, that we haveto look at it in the moral, human, and civil rights. Ireel that the Dene people have come a long way to makeCanadians across the country try and understand what theyare trying to say. There have been many people in thepast who have dealt with the government and have neverbeen given a fair shake by the government. n example aretreaty rights. According to myself, all our treatyrights have been violated by the government.

When we see native groupslike the Dene people and people of the north, when theyare forced to take violent action, when I say that willnot benefit anybody; but as the American IndianMovement, if these people are forced to take violentsteps, then the American Indian Movement will have toback them. We will back them in any way that we knowhow, and the best way possible.

I feel that when we talkabout being part of a society I question a lot ofthings: low many people are on that National Energy


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Board, how many native people are on that Board? Howmany native people are on different Boards where peopledecide on the future of their children, theirgrandchildren, the future of their culture, the futureof their traditions, the future of their lifestyle?

I feel that when we get rightdown to areas where things where people like Mayor RodSykes, Judd Buchanan -- do not care about a group ofpeople their red-necked attitudes towards the nativepeople does not help the native people, it does nothelp their community, it does not help the Canadianpeople of Canada. When you get right down to the wholehearing as it is going across Canada, which is apositive thing, people can come and express their viewson the Mackenzie Pipeline, it's something positive thatis going on. But when I see a person presenting hisbrief and then walking out on the others, that means hehas his own interests and nothing else.

(APPLAUSE)We must remember the American

Indian Movement supports the Dene people, and we havechapters across Canada, and if anything should happenin the north, the Mackenzie Pipeline comes rightthrough Alberta and we will deal with it if we have toback up the Dene people in every way we can.

I'd like to thank Berger fortaking this time and listening to us and hope that youunderstand the native people of the north and have afair representation in Parliament when you present thewhole thing.


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WITNESS SMALL LEGS: First ofall, I'd like to welcome Commissioner Berger toSouthern Alberta, and I'd like to welcome the rest ofthe oil people to this hotel.

For the past couple of hoursI've been sitting here, sitting back there listening topeople making their briefs about for and against orhalf-way, or whatever, for the Mackenzie ValleyPipeline One fellow said there are two extremes. Itseems to me that there are only two answers, either doit or you know, scrap the thing. If you go ahead anddo it, Like I can only talk from my area of SouthernAlberta, can only talk about the five reservations.

If they proceed with theMackenzie Valley Pipeline, all I can see is corruption.Have you people ever seen 7-year-olds, 6-year-olds, 5-year-olds melting down an L.P, record so they can getthe alcohol out of it to forget their misery? Have youseen 7-year-olds melt down polish and get alcohol outof it? have you seen that? Any of you o11 people,have you seen that? This is true. This is basicgrassroots truth. This is what the dominating societyhas Lone to native people all across Canada, and if itgoes through, that Mackenzie Valley in the NorthwestTerritories, I see the same corruption. Booze,alcohol, what our former brothers have stated.

It seems to me that the exec-utive of the oil companies do not think of their childrenchildren's children. When the native people get up hereo speak, we speak for generations. Our forefathers


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signed a treaty for generations to come. Yourforefathers didn't sign for you guys, they just signedfor themselves so they could get the land away from us.Truth, that's what the American Indian Movement speaks.

Talk about the laws ofnature. This is the law of nature, the peace pipe oryour Bible. That is the law of nature. This rockrepresents the earth, the stem represents what grows onthe earth. If you violate the laws of nature, youviolate your internal selves, where materialism ishired and everything else. I see some peoplesnickering back there. Well, snicker all you want.

If it does go through, likeEd says here, it's going to come through SouthernAlberta and very close to the five reservations. Wewill back the Northwest Territories Indians up inwhatever their decision is. We do not condone violencebut if we are threatened with it, we'll use it. We'renot trained like our brothers to the south across theborder, where they're trained in guerilla warfare andtrained in the art of killing a human being, TheCanadian Indian is unpredictable. They will takeanything up to defend themselves -- our children, ourwives, our culture, our spirtualism. So it's adecision of whether or not it will go through. You'reeither in the water or you're out of it.

Thank you very much,(APPLAUSE)MR. WADDELL: Mr.

Commissioner, I should have told you that Mr. Burnstick


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spoke first, I think as you gathered, and Mr. Small Legssecond.

(WITNESSES ASIDE)MR. WADDELL: I call upon Mr.

Dixon -- Professor Dixon Thompson from the Faculty ofEnvironmental Design, University of Calgary. I thinkProfessor Thompson, if he's here I know that he wasgoing to try and make it back this afternoon, IsProfessor Thompson here?

A VOICE: No.MR. WADDELL: Well, I think

he indicated to me that he would send in a writtenbrief.

There are - we've coveredeveryone now that has indicated to us previous to May1st that they would want to make a brief, and we'veheard something like 39 briefs, Mr. Commissioner, so Iwould ask that the remaining people that do haveanything to say, or as a result of some of the briefshere today feel that they wish to submit a brief to theInquiry, to send their briefs in written form toYellowknife, to you, sir, in Yellowknife, NorthwestTerritories, and we'll file them with the Inquiry andmake sure that you get them to read.

I should say that thetranscripts of our hearings have been deposited in theCalgary Public Library and Mr. Commissioner, we'll makesure that the transcripts of these hearings areavailable there, just as soon as we have them.

Now Mr. Ryder, I believe, has


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something.MR. RYDER I have nothing to

add, Mr. Commissioner. I believe Mr. Blair is here andhas a few words to say, if that may be done?

Before Mr. Blair begins, Ishould advise people here that Mr. Blair is speaking tothe Commission as part of our rules, our proceduresthat we have laid down whereby all, the regularparticipants at the Inquiry, including the two pipelinecompanies, have agreed that they won't cross-examineany people who come here to present their submissionsto you, but instead the participants will be offered anopportunity to say -- make a statement to you at theconclusion of each session, and that is what I ratherMr. Blair is here to do.

ROBERT BLAIR, resumed:THE WITNESS: Mr.

Commissioner, it's Robert Blair speaking, as thepresident of the Alberta Gas Trunk Line Company ofCalgary, and part-time as the president of FoothillsPipe Lines, an applicant before your Inquiry.

With other witnesses fromFoothill I have appeared already considerably at ourhearings, Mr. Commissioner, in the communities and atYellowknife, and will again, and won't stretch evenour renowned patience by repeating today about ourwork on the Maple Leaf project in any sort oftechnical way.

Nevertheless, there have been


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some suggestions raised in the hearings in the province,including in Calgary, to which we react strongly, and soour company is **Q& rather medium size in internationalterms, it's still one of the larger Canadian-owned andcontrolled companies and therein I do claim to representone of the major and responsibly informed points of viewin the gas pipeline industry in Canada.

First, as to the charge mademost directly and sometimes in rather extreme andderogatory language before you, the charge that thisregulatory and judicial process of review is alreadyholding up connecting of additional gas supplies toSouthern Canadians, I've heard enough of that to wantto testify through your record that such charge isfalse or misinformed, and deserves to be contradicted,I believe, in flat language.

The only frontier gasavailable for early connection for Canadian purposes isthe gas in the Mackenzie Delta on the Arctic Islands.No gas from Alaska has been offered for Canadian use.

In the Mackenzie Delta theproducers, which have developed a significant gassupply there, have said clearly on their own behalfthat their plans are for first production in the fallof 1981, and e see that they have conditioned thoseforecasts in terms which suggest that more likely thefirst production will occur in the fall of 1982. Thereserve quantities there are deserving of pipelineconnection and we believe that the additional potentialof the area over and above the reserves proven so far,


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will in the next few years justify the choice of 42-inch pipeline, which is the size which would achievecomparatively low unit costs for such connection.

In Alberta Gas Trunk Companyour day to day business, our bread and butter, meat andpotatoes business is the connecting of new sources ofgas supply. We do it every year. We know that inorder to have a pipeline connection through theMackenzie Delta in operation in the fall of 1982 itwould be desirable, if possible, to start somepreliminary field construction work during 1977, To dothat we should ideally, if we had everything our way,we should ideally finance in 1978, and in order tocomplete all the construction planning with the optimumeconomy and convenience, it would be desirable toreceive authorization of the properly designed projectby about the end of 1977, more or less.

Now that's laying out anideal schedule as seen by experienced pipelineconstruction management. If it should be necessary, wecould make the in-service time in the fall, of 1982with later regulatory action and government decisionand still experience no real delay.

Now the point to thisanalysis is that there is simply no way at all that aprocess f regulatory and judicial and Parliamentaryreview luring all of '76 and all of 1977, if necessary,no way that such timing could possibly contribute delayto the time at which the frontier gas begins to flow,looking at this situation as a Canadian project. But


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don't believe, the reason I asked to get in here today,I don't believe that this hearing and its participantsshould be left with the bad taste of some of thestatements and charges about urgency and delay whichhave been made to you.

We know on the factual basisthat I've just described that there is substantial timeavailable in terms of Canada's interests to properlyevaluate the impact of the pipeline on the peoples ofthe north. We know that there's time to negotiate andhopefully make much progress towards settling theIndian land claims. We know that it's time to takesteps to minimize the impact of development on thenorth, the native peoples and other interested partiesalong the route; and we know that there is time tochoose carefully, among various alternatives of gassources and schedules and projects, designs in Canada.

Some of the statements abouturgency may have been from misinformation, and somehave had to do, no doubt, with the urgency which isattributed to the transport of Alaskan gas to UnitedStates markets. We're quite aware in Foothills of thatUnited States urgency and as had some press attentionthe last couple of weeks, our own companies arepresently involved in the proposed Fairbanks corridor -Alaskan Highway alternative, which might, in itsseparate way, come to do something really practical torelieve that American problem. Possibly the AlaskanHighway medium-sized kind of project proposed would inthe end provide -- even provide the promptest relief


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of the American problem. But I think what'simportant here is to identify that as an American needand to recognize that whatever may be done to relievethat American need, that that be done, recognized andweighed as a concession and an accommodation ofAmerican interests and not as a development urgent forCanadian purposes to the point of overriding otherlocal objectives which may get in its way.

Our own companies have a lotof operating and construction responsibility from dayto day, and we like efficiency and speed of action atleast as much as anyone else does. I'm sure everyonein the room, in their own way, and for their ownreasons, would like to get on with their assignment.But we get uneasy if we see components of an industryor of any other component trying willfully to get theirown way by demanding urgent decision before the factsand the public attitudes are considered.

Now to be practical, I doacknowledge that there is the one case which could needmore urgent decision in Canada, that is the Arctic asgroup whose project has to, by its nature, meet UnitedStates purposes and schedules which seem to have a moreadvanced and arbitrary deadline situation becauseperhaps of the complexity of the jurisdictional and thegovernmental reviews involved there. But what weperceive is that real anxiety for decision in '76 orfor very early '77 is for the very individualobjectives of that one particular project, and not forthe increasing as supply in Canada as a general aim.


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A second issue which has beenraised before your hearings is the manner ofparticipation by northern residents particularlysuggesting by Indian residents in the ownership and inthe Board of Directors as well as in direct participationon the Board of Directors, as well as in supervisory andmanagement and operational jobs of the pipeline companywhich eventually accomplishes these projects which Canadapredictably will need, and I notice this has been raisedin respect of the Yukon Brotherhood recently, and sincethe subject is to timely I'd like to confirm again inthis forum that from the other side of the table, that'sfrom the company's side, we do happen to endorse andbelieve in such an arrangement, and are continuingcurrently to in private discussions with governmentauthorities and with representatives of the northernpeoples, continuing to plan the practical implementationof such arrangement within any project sponsored byFoothills, whether they be in the Northwest Territories,mainline and community delivery operations, or for acorresponding operation in the Yukon Territory.

Finally, and there's a thirdsubject, I'd like to respond in a way to some of theexpressions of anxiety that have been put before thehearings. The Foothills organization is not interestedt all in crashing through a project over the protests ragainst the interests of the residents. The companysponsoring this project have as part of their routineresponsibility the job of operating pipelines underlands occupied by other parties, in the case of Alberta


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Gas Trunk in Alberta there's about 5,000 suchlandowners **whether the ranchers, farmers, Hutteritecommunes, Indian Reserves, National Parks, ProvincialParks, whoever holds the lands, and part of ourbusiness day to day is getting the pipelines into theground with their acquiescence and living with them,and that's the nature of this business. We do knowalso that there are sufficient reserves of gas inAlberta to meet the going requirements of the Canadianmarket for some years, as was demonstrated by theEnergy, Mines & Resources recent publication of theirenergy study.

The position of our Foothillsorganization is simply to keep ready and prepared toproceed with construction of the pipeline at such time asit may be that the Government of Canada determines aftercareful review by this Inquiry and by the National EnergyBoard and by Parliament itself that the construction of aMackenzie Valley Pipeline may be required for the bestinterests of all the people concerned, includingnortherners, southerners, producers, consumers rwhatever. Until the next time when a community hearingsomewhere else, I thank you for your attention.

(APPLAUSE) (WITNESS ASIDE)THE COMMISSIONER: Ladies and

gentlemen, any other participants who wish to make astatement, Mr. Ryder?

MR. RYDER: No, Mr. Commissioner.THE COMMISSIONER: Well,

ladies and gentlemen, I want to thank you for your


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attendance here during these past two days, and to saythat I have listened carefully to the contribution thateach one of you has made, and I repeat the thought thatit seems to me to be useful, that all points of vie areexpressed at this Inquiry and that the people in theindustry, the people representing the nativeorganizations, the people with environmental concerns,the representatives of the religious committees thathave taken an interest in the moral and ethicaldimensions of the Inquiry's work, I think it'simportant that all of you have taken the trouble to behere, not only to express your own points of view butto listen to the points of view expressed b' otherswith whom you may, and in some instances clearly do notagree.

I think that that's the waythe democratic process ought to function. It means thatin a country of many millions of people there is aforum for you who wish to do so to express your pointof view and for me to consider your point of view andto make my own report to the Government of Canada andto make my own recommendations which naturally in duecourse will be made public.

So thank you again, and Ithink that I should simply adjourn the Inquiry nowuntil we reconvene in Edmonton on Monday at two o'clockin the afternoon. Thank you.

(APPLAUSE)(PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO MAY 17, 1976)


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Calgary, Alberta May 14, 1976 Volume 53 - PWNHC | CPSPG Calgary Berger V53.pdfare considering is the...

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