1 DEPARTMENT OF CONSERVATION AND

2 NATURAL RESOURCES

3 ADVISORY BOARD MEETING

4

5

6

7 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

8

9

10

11

12 Location: State Capitol Auditorium

13 600 Dexter Avenue,

14 Montgomery, Alabama

15 Date: May 16, 2009

16 Time: 9:08 a.m.

17

18

19

20

21

22

23 Before: Victoria M. Castillo, CCR #17

1

1 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: With that,

2 I'd like to call the meeting to order. The May

3 16th, 2009 meeting of the Conservation Advisory

4 Board will come to order. I would like to welcome

5 everyone to Montgomery. The Board is glad that all

6 of you were able to be here today.

7 The invocation will be given by

8 Mr. Bill Hatley. Mr. Hatley --

9 MR. HATLEY: Thank you. Let us

10 pray.

11 Our Father, we thank you for this day

12 and all of its glory, and we thank for life and all

13 of the wonders that you provide. Now we pray that

14 you would bless every person that is gathered here

15 today, and may the actions of this Board be

16 acceptable in thy sight.

17 For these things we ask in Jesus

18 Christ's name and for His sake. Amen.

19 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Thank you,

20 Mr. Hatley.

21 For the next order of business, I'd

22 like to introduce the Conservation Advisory Board.

23 Before I introduce them, I want to

2

1 recognize two of the past Advisory Board members

2 that have just served their cycle and turned off

3 the Board. Lewis Coles and Johnny Johnson -- I

4 don't know if either of them were able to make it

5 today.

6 We've got very nice plaques for both

7 of them and both of them had long dedicated service

8 with the Board during the last six years, and we

9 certainly appreciate their service to the Board and

10 what they did for the Board. We will get them

11 these plaques accordingly.

12 From District 1 we have Ross Self and

13 Bill Hatley. District 2 --

14 If you-all will raise your hand, Ross

15 and Bill.

16 From District 2 is representative,

17 one of our new Board members, of Mr. Grady.

18 Hartzog -- please raise your hand.

19 Mr. Hartzog may be a new member of

20 the Conservation Advisory Board, however he's no

21 stranger to wildlife and conservation efforts. He

22 has served as a board member for Forever Wild, Land

23 Trust, and a director of Ducks Unlimited, and

3

1 Executive Board member of AWF, and was awarded the

2 2002 Governor's Wildlife Conservation Award.

3 Grady, we're happy to have you on the

4 Board with us. I think you will bring a lot -- I

5 know you will bring a lot to the Board.

6 District 3 is represented by Grant

7 Lynch -- Grant.

8 District 4 is represented by

9 Mr. George Harbin, who had some medical issues and

10 is not in attendance today.

11 District 5 is represented by Raymond

12 Jones and Dr. Warren Strickland -- Raymond and

13 Dr. Strickland.

14 District 6 is represented by myself.

15 District 7 is represented by

16 Dr. Wayne May -- Dr. May.

17 And by our other newly appointed

18 board member, Mr. Brock Jones -- Brock.

19 Mr. Jones is also not a stranger to

20 conservation issues. He's an avid outdoorsman,

21 owning timber and hunting properties in Greene and

22 Wilcox County. He serves on the American Red Cross

23 Board, the Children's Hands-On Museum Board, and

4

1 the Greene County Historical Board.

2 And I happened to have a nice dinner

3 with Brock last night, and let me tell you, he's

4 going to bring a lot to this Board. So I think

5 we -- we welcome your service too, Brock.

6 Thank you to all the board members

7 for your service and the efforts you give to the

8 Advisory Board.

9 The next order of business of is

10 approval of the March 7th, 2009 Advisory Board

11 minutes.

12 Are there any changes to these

13 minutes?

14 We have a motion and second.

15 All in favor?

16 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: The minutes

17 passed. The minutes stand approved as read.

18 The next order of business is the

19 public hearing. When you hear your name called,

20 please come to the microphone and give your name

21 and the subject you wish to speak on.

22 I will remind you that you may only

23 speak at the time that you are called and that any

5

1 interference with any of the speakers will not be

2 tolerated.

3 Okay, our first speaker will be

4 Wynnton Melton.

5 MR. MELTON: I'm Wynnton Melton,

6 Geneva County. Thank you, Mr. Moultrie. Thank you

7 Board.

8 I've been to the microphone many

9 times, but I'm coming to you today from a different

10 perspective altogether.

11 Actually I'm the mayor of Geneva,

12 Alabama, and I also come here to salute Officer

13 Hendron. You had to have been on the front line,

14 be there that day, to see the devastation from the

15 threat of this devastation.

16 We did lose eleven people. It

17 could've have been many, many more. The guy was in

18 an absolute killing frenzy. He was shooting

19 everything that moved, and he was very, very well

20 armed -- much better armed than our officers.

21 I can tell you today though that

22 Geneva Police Department all have assault riffles

23 in their cars. We do not need to have our officers

6

1 out there with handguns to face the arsenal that

2 they may be facing on any daily basis.

3 But Officer Hendron was heroic,

4 deserving of every accolade that you can give him,

5 and there's no question in my mind had the fellow

6 gotten into (inaudible) which employs about 600

7 people -- with two assault rifles, you would have

8 seen mass, mass murder.

9 I hope and pray that none of you ever

10 have to go through a day like we did in Geneva

11 County, March 9th. I remind each person here that

12 there's no safer place to be in this world than

13 sitting on your front porch on (inaudible) Street

14 in Sampson, Alabama, and that's where six of these

15 innocent victims lost their lives.

16 None of us are immune, none of us are

17 exempt, none of us are sheltered. We cannot live

18 in fear. We can always respect danger. We can

19 never be governed by these threats or this fear.

20 But it's a very comforting feeling to

21 know that we have law enforcement people out there,

22 like our many good conservation officers, people

23 that put their lives on the line every day for us,

7

1 and it makes life a little more comfortable and a

2 little easier for each of us.

3 So I join with you in our salute to

4 Joel -- wherever you are, Joel -- Geneva County

5 appreciates you so much. Thank you.

6 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Thank you,

7 Mr. Melton.

8 The next speaker will be Danny

9 Chandler.

10 MR. CHANDLER: Thank you,

11 Commissioner Moultrie. Thank you for the

12 opportunity to come here this morning.

13 Steve (inaudible) was supposed to

14 give this presentation this morning, and he's in

15 Hawaii with a new grandbaby. So he could not be

16 with us, so they asked me. I haven't given

17 (inaudible) since I was in the 9th grade English

18 class, so it's going to be kind of hard this

19 morning.

20 Thank you, Commissioner. We came

21 here this morning and questioned a commercial

22 fisherman on Lake Martin -- excuse me, Lake Yates

23 in Elmore and Tallapoosa County be stopped. Lake

8

1 Yates is a less than 2,000 acre impoundment. It

2 has only three main tributaries that dig into it.

3 It's a long and narrow lake.

4 The thing is that a 2,000 acre

5 impoundment just cannot coexist in commercial

6 fishing and recreational catfishing, and we have a

7 lot of children and a lot of retired adults that

8 fish that lake. And it just -- after May and June

9 when the commercial fishing starts on the lake,

10 there's no more catfish. It's just ended.

11 And we have such a hard time. They

12 put in these big box traps and catch all the fish

13 out, mainly channel catfish -- and the ones in the

14 two-pound class.

15 And many families enjoy the fishing

16 on Lake Yates, and it's a family-oriented

17 business -- I mean and -- but we're not against

18 commercial fishing. We're not against anything

19 that's large enough to accept commercial fishing.

20 But we do ask the Commission to take into

21 consideration that -- a 2,000 acre impoundment.

22 Saugahatchee Creek is the only creek

23 on that lake that maintains a healthy population of

9

1 catfish. In the spring and summer that's where

2 they all go. The other two, Coon Creek and

3 Channahatchee Creek, the other two tributaries that

4 feed into Lake Yates, they are not suited for

5 catfish. They just don't like it. I don't know

6 why -- I am not a conservationist enough to tell

7 you why. But I do know that they don't -- that

8 Saugahatchee Creek is just about the only creek

9 that has catfish in it.

10 And after these box traps put in

11 (inaudible) catfish are the only thing you still

12 catch. They're no bigger than your hand.

13 And with the amount of retirees and

14 young people that fish that lake, that fish also

15 from the bank -- as well as catfish fishing in

16 boats, it just widens the fishing up on Lake Yates.

17 So we ask you to at least do a study

18 to determine if a 2,000 acre impoundment is large

19 enough to handle commercial catfishing and

20 recreational fishing.

21 And like I said, we're not against

22 commercial fishing. But when it infringes on the

23 recreational fishing in that way, then we are

10

1 against it.

2 And you've received a petition that

3 we've got, and I think that Steve (inaudible) has

4 already brought that in and you-all have looked

5 over it in the Wildlife and Fishery Division, and

6 we ask that you-all stop the commercial catfishing

7 on Lake Yates.

8 Thank you.

9 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Thank you.

10 Corky, do any of your people want to

11 speak to that right now?

12 MR. PUGH: Mr. Chairman, what we

13 would like to do is bring a report back to the

14 Board at the next meeting and get some input from

15 our fishery biologists and by our enforcement.

16 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: That would be

17 great. We would love to get that at the next

18 meeting.

19 The next speaker would be Mr. Avery

20 Bates.

21 MR. BATES: My name is Avery

22 Bates. I am vice president of Organized Seafood

23 Association, tend to stay around Mobile County and

11

1 Baldwin County areas.

2 We feed many hundreds of thousands

3 and millions of people with our seafoods. We want

4 to first thank, Mr. Vernon Melton and the

5 Commissioner for signing an extended period of time

6 that we can fish because of the bad weather. And

7 we're still having bad weather down there.

8 Fisherman are having a hard time.

9 Like many recreational fishermen, they're having a

10 hard time getting into the areas they need to go to

11 catch their species of fish.

12 But we've got another -- I think in

13 June -- the 12th, or something like that

14 (inaudible) has extended that, and I know that

15 there's going to be some opposition to that.

16 But first of all, we want to continue

17 to feed Alabama wild seafoods to this state and

18 this country. And you-all can have a big part of

19 that by continuing to make regulations that would

20 let us continue to do that -- not closing areas.

21 You can put certain quotas and stuff,

22 but these seafoods belong to everybody in the

23 state. And the only way you can buy them on our

12

1 market is through us (inaudible) --

2 And the law of the state of Alabama

3 does allow us to fish these areas. All lakes,

4 bays, bayous, streams belong to all the people in

5 the state, and the gulf beaches. We want to keep

6 them like that.

7 And while I am up here, I would like

8 for some of the new members to know that in 924,

9 Part B, it says Department of Conservation and

10 Natural Resources made by order to do and make the

11 public decide of the manner of taking camping at

12 the time which is designated the places for which

13 seafood may or may not be taken or caught during

14 certain periods of the year, or entirely as it may

15 deem to be for the best interest of the seafood

16 industry. Now, that's a big statement.

17 We want to do what's right and what's

18 best. So thank you very much for doing what's

19 best, Vernon, by extending it out. And any future

20 things that we see like devastating weather,

21 hurricanes, we work with Vernon and got some

22 extension, not only for the Feds -- Feds let us do

23 that.

13

1 But these areas that they want to

2 close just because we're commercial fishermen,

3 we've got quotas that can be implemented so they're

4 not over-fished. We've got different things --

5 mass size. We want to keep a healthy stock, but we

6 want to keep feeding you-all good beneficial

7 products. Don't put us out of business.

8 Thank you very much. Want to welcome

9 you-all new members. Keep us in mind when you make

10 any future regulations. Don't put us out of

11 business. Don't put us at a point where we cannot

12 survive. We supply a lot of food, a lot of jobs.

13 Our oyster industry, totally

14 devastated. I want you-all to know that. We're in

15 the mend. Keep in mind, when we leave one

16 industry, we have to go to another segment.

17 Thank you very much.

18 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Thank you,

19 Mr. Bates.

20 The next speaker is Barry Estes.

21 MR. ESTES: Good morning,

22 Mr. Chairman, Board. My name is Barry Estes. I'm

23 the president of Bowhunters of Alabama. I'm here

14

1 to speak for those people.

2 I know there's a topic coming up about

3 extending the youth weekend. I think that's

4 wonderful. We need to get more kids involved.

5 Everything's going great. I know we support a lot

6 of children all across the state -- Archery

7 Assistance Program introducing kids to the

8 outdoors. I think it's a wonderful idea, so I hope

9 everything goes well.

10 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Thank you,

11 Mr. Estes.

12 The next speaker will be Anthony

13 Fillingim.

14 MR. FILLINGIM: Thank you-all.

15 How are you doing, Mr. Moultrie?

16 I came up in February and presented

17 the Board with a position about trying to change

18 some zoning for the dove hunting regulations. And

19 we found out the Feds set those zones, and they can

20 only be changed every five years.

21 So we have come back and revised our

22 request, and what we're asking for is to give us

23 some hunting time in the southern zones, the first

15

1 part of that county. It may only be from beginning

2 this Saturday through the following Sunday, which

3 would amount to nine days. We are asking that the

4 Board not open the second season in the south zone

5 too late into October, run it on over to November

6 and then late December through late January.

7 I have sent out some copies of the

8 petition. I want to make sure that everybody here

9 understands I'm not up here for me personally. The

10 major landowners of Baldwin County, some of them in

11 Mobile County, have asked me if I would come up

12 here and represent them. So I am up here for the

13 major landowners of this area -- the Kizers, the

14 Childress', the Cortays, the Higbys, the Garlands,

15 the Betos, the Bonners, Children, Halls, and

16 Bishops, the Noltes, the (inaudible) the Gilberts

17 -- these people have all signed this petition.

18 There's nothing on this petition but major, major

19 landowners. These are not dove hunters. These are

20 major farmers.

21 And this is their request, and

22 they've asked me if I would come up here, present

23 this to you-all, and represent them, and it is an

16

1 honor to do that for them. I just didn't want you

2 to think this is something that I personally came

3 up with (inaudible) --

4 At the beginning of September, there

5 were literally thousands and thousands of birds in

6 these areas. Towards the first of October when our

7 dove season comes in, we have to scramble to have

8 enough birds to shoot. So we want the opportunity

9 to shoot these birds eight or ten days at the first

10 part of the year while they're present. After

11 that, we'll -- we'll deal with it. We will work

12 with farmers. They will work with us to where we

13 can have some quality hunts.

14 We're asking for eight or ten days

15 the first part of the north zone season.

16 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE:

17 Mr. Fillingim, I believe Dr. May has a question.

18 DR. MAY: You made the mention of

19 the landowners' request.

20 MR. FILLINGIM: Yes, sir.

21 DR. MAY: Just why are they

22 requesting this if they're not dove hunters?

23 MR. FILLINGIM: I didn't say they

17

1 didn't dove hunt. They are the major landowners.

2 They do have an interest because people do rent

3 their land to hunt. They have the crops. They

4 harvest the crops. They see these birds just in

5 great congregation. And by the time our season

6 comes in October 4th, there's no birds there to

7 shoot. There's 75 percent or 80 percent of these

8 birds migrate.

9 DR. MAY: Where are they

10 migrating to?

11 MR. FILLINGIM: My understanding

12 from the research that we've done, Dr. May, and

13 we -- we've gotten most of them out of the Mourning

14 and Doving Hunting Management in Alabama, the

15 Journal of Wildlife Management, they migrate to the

16 west, down the coast, on over into Mexico and South

17 America.

18 I'm not a specialist. All I can tell

19 you is what I've read. There were some great

20 articles in the dove hunting conservation magazines

21 that I wish I could reproduce. I couldn't relocate

22 them that I had read, but our understanding is they

23 go down the coast and into South America.

18

1 DR. MAY: And I don't know if

2 they realize it or not, but 60 to 70 percent of all

3 harvests are within the first ten days of the

4 season.

5 MR. FILLINGIM: But what

6 percentage is that of the amount of birds

7 available?

8 DR. MAY: 70 percent of all the

9 that we have in the fall to hunt are birds that

10 have hatched that year. So what we're doing is

11 we're killing all of our young birds off by hunting

12 early. Now, that's a fact.

13 MR. FILLINGIM: Dr. May,

14 respectfully, very respectfully, I disagree. And

15 no disrespect intended because we don't get to hunt

16 the birds that are there. These birds migrate and

17 leave our area. We never hunt.

18 The -- I mean, Dr. May, I have

19 literally walked up to a farm and witnessed six and

20 7,000 birds there one week. And two weeks later

21 there wouldn't be 400, and they're not in that area

22 to be hunted.

23 These farmers have watched these

19

1 birds breed and raise and hatch, and our

2 understanding is there's up to four to six

3 hatchings annually. They are raised there.

4 Sometimes they will even hatch on over into

5 November and December, that these birds that are

6 born in early March are actually capable of

7 reproducing that same year.

8 DR. MAY: Well, if we destroy 70

9 percent of our birds, 70 percent of the ones we are

10 harvesting are the ones that's hatched this year.

11 And we kill 60 to 70 percent the first ten days

12 where we are hunting, we are destroying our base

13 for the next year. The doves only live, what, one

14 to three years.

15 MR. FILLINGIM: One to three

16 years.

17 DR. MAY: And most of them just a

18 year. So that means none of the dove population

19 that we have that produced this year will likely be

20 here last year. So we've got to count on the

21 hatch, what we have this year. If we go ahead and

22 destroy them the first day of the season, we're

23 backing up.

20

1 MR. FILLINGIM: Let me ask you

2 this to clarify. My understanding is 60 percent of

3 the birds that are harvested are harvested in the

4 first season, not 60 percent of the total

5 population. Just 60 percent --

6 DR. MAY: 60 percent of what's

7 harvested is harvested within the first ten days.

8 MR. FILLINGIM: I understand

9 that, but that's not 60 percent of the total

10 population.

11 DR. MAY: Well, if 70 percent of

12 that is what has hatched this year, it's a very

13 large percentage of young birds.

14 MR. FILLINGIM: We never

15 harvested any of them in that area. They leave.

16 That's our point.

17 These birds that grow on these farms,

18 that are hatched out on these farms, but by the

19 time our season comes in, somebody's harvesting

20 them way down the road that's not in south Alabama.

21 DR. MAY: That's probably the

22 biggest complaint that I hear all over the state,

23 even in north Alabama, just the cold weather,

21

1 moving in, move out. They tend to blame it on the

2 cold weather. You blame it on the season. Central

3 Alabama, they don't know what happens.

4 I will tell you what happens. The

5 neighbor that's top sowing is feeding a little

6 later top sowing than that (inaudible) birds do not

7 stay in the same place that's not feeding them.

8 MR. FILLINGIM: There's food

9 here. They leave. These farmers are millet

10 farmers and peanut farmers. And when they harvest

11 the millet, the birds are there. They leave with

12 food on the ground. They don't stay.

13 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Mr. Hatley,

14 you got a comment, too.

15 MR. HATLEY: Yes, not directly to

16 Skeeter or to Dr. May, but I'd like for someone

17 from your department to talk on this, if they

18 would, and give us some insight as to it. We can

19 sit here and argue the points of this all day, but

20 I'd like to hear from you guys.

21 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE:

22 Mr. Fillingim, I've got a question before Gary

23 talks for the Board, information.

22

1 If the early majority of doves leave

2 those fields and we know the doves (inaudible) do

3 you-all see another influx of doves during the

4 season, and when is that, and is it multiple or

5 single?

6 MR. FILLINGIM: It's usually in

7 late October when we start seeing another influx of

8 birds come in. And then on over into February we

9 have a heavy population of birds, later in January

10 and February. But it is generally later on over

11 into October and November before we see.

12 Mr. Dan, a lot of that absolutely

13 would depend on how (inaudible) of the cold weather

14 moving in on the northern states, of course, and

15 pushes the northern birds down to that area.

16 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Gary, you

17 going to address that?

18 MR. MOODY: Thank you,

19 Mr. Chairman.

20 This has been an ongoing discussion

21 point for several years, and we continue to support

22 what the Fish and Wildlife service provides to us

23 and follow their line of logic and reasoning and

23

1 follow the procedural recommendation.

2 We have a framework that's offered to

3 us that we can harvest birds at the beginning of

4 September 1 going through in -- whatever the last

5 day is -- I forgot what off the top of my head.

6 We don't think there's any biological

7 (inaudible) biological (inaudible) used that season

8 any time within those days, north zone or south

9 zone. It's just a matter of public use and what

10 the public wants in those areas. And we want -- we

11 don't have a biological reason for saying that.

12 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Dr. May

13 again.

14 DR. MAY: I noticed Mr. Hayden

15 had written this letter where you-all stand behind

16 what's your biological, and all the reports that

17 he -- he mentioned from Georgia to the guy that

18 wrote the ones that it's all right to hunt birds,

19 except doves, in September that doesn't have any

20 effect on the nesting. In fact, both of these

21 articles that you-all go by refer to the effects of

22 hunting on doves nesting and egg-laying in

23 September.

24

1 That's not where the big problem is.

2 The big problem is we are losing all the effects

3 that September has on August nesting and hatching,

4 and I still -- I have a report that I passed out

5 again today that I passed out in February. And it

6 shows that we are destroying all of the August

7 hatch, and that's our base that I said before. Our

8 basis for the next year comes from this hatch.

9 Most of the doves that hatch this year are not

10 going to be here next year.

11 MR. MOODY: You're right. Most

12 of the doves that hatch this year are not going to

13 be here next year because most of the doves are

14 only going to live one year to start. They're a

15 short-lived bird. That's just the biology of the

16 bird, and it doesn't matter whether they're hunted

17 or not, they're not going to be here next year.

18 DR. MAY: But my argument is, you

19 said it can't matter whether you start hunting them

20 in October or September -- it does. If you give

21 the -- wait until October till all of the ones that

22 hatch in August have a chance to survive, if you

23 hunt them in early the first weekend in September,

25

1 they don't stand a chance because they're not going

2 to get out of the nest off the ground.

3 MR. MOODY: The studies have

4 shown that I am familiar with -- and I'm not

5 familiar with what you're talking about there --

6 DR. MAY: It's the one you-all

7 always refer to is why you do this.

8 MR. MOODY: I'm not -- I'm just

9 not sure which study you're talking about is for

10 the sparrow. But the studies have indicated that

11 the framework that we're given to choose a season

12 does not have an overall negative impact on the

13 population of the bird. Not arguing about any one

14 individual or anything. I'm talking about the

15 population of the bird does not have a negative

16 impact.

17 DR. MAY: Well, these reports

18 that Mr. Hayden referred to refers to the nesting,

19 and it refers to the national average of what

20 September hunt would put into the population, which

21 is very little. I will agree. But they won't

22 go -- mention that there's nothing but fledglings

23 they destroy into October and even into late July,

26

1 by early September hunting.

2 MR. MOODY: I know that when the

3 framework was set up -- and I cannot quote you the

4 study, but I know there was a study done and our

5 staff participated going back several years ago,

6 even back into the '70s where we -- where there was

7 an interest in September nesting, what additive

8 effect did that have on that overall population.

9 And it was determined at that time that it was

10 negligible and did not -- hunting during that time

11 frame did not affect the overall population.

12 DR. MAY: I disagree with you.

13 That's not what it refers to. It refers to the

14 September nesting and (inaudible) great effect on

15 it. Because it's not much nesting going on, and I

16 will refer you to the last notice where we got that

17 we could have a 70-day season and 15-bag limit.

18 They suggested that we do away with the two

19 seasons. If we're going to go to a 70-day, 15-bag

20 limit, they said we should suggestively do away

21 with two shooting zones, and just have a plain

22 70-day season for the whole state.

23 MR. MOODY: They would also like

27

1 for us to have one zone, too.

2 DR. MAY: Have one what?

3 MR. MOODY: Have one zone -- they

4 would like for us not to have a north zone.

5 DR. MAY: Well, that's what I'm

6 saying. They don't want us to do that. If we're

7 going to shoot 70 days, we shot 110 days last year,

8 and I think 81 of them was on different days from

9 different zones.

10 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Dr. May,

11 Gary, I spoke with the Commissioner briefly this

12 morning before, thinking this issue would come up,

13 and the Commissioner is under the impression that

14 he does agree with Dr. May that that biological

15 data is correct and we are killing young doves, but

16 he's also concerned that the states surrounding us

17 are harvesting those young doves. And if we --

18 what he would like to see done, if we could do some

19 kind of impact study with the surrounding states to

20 see if we could get them in concurrence with us

21 that, yes, this is negatively affecting the

22 population, then something could be done. But he

23 felt that if the surrounding states would not join

28

1 us, then the influence we would have upon that may

2 not be felt as much.

3 But I think that would probably be a

4 good direction for this -- us to go. But sort of

5 the checkpoint too that he does agree with Dr. May,

6 but he also he sees what's going on with the

7 surrounding states. Do you-all concur with that?

8 DR. MAY: I agree with it 100

9 percent, but I also believe because of what

10 Mississippi and Tennessee does that if we can use

11 and have a lot more doves than they do, we're going

12 to go (inaudible) just like you've got good food,

13 restaurant people are going to come. And we can

14 sell licenses to out-of-state people because we got

15 more doves to shoot.

16 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE:

17 Dr. Strickland, did you have a comment also? You

18 have the floor.

19 DR. STRICKLAND: Yes,

20 Mr. Chairman, and actually you addressed the some

21 of the discussion that I was going to bring forth

22 to the members. You know, I grew up in Arkansas,

23 and we've had an early September dove hunt for 50

29

1 years. The dove hunting is better in Arkansas now

2 than it's ever been.

3 So I concur with Dr. May. It's

4 certainly sound biological principles, but the

5 reality is that it really doesn't seem to have, you

6 know, significant effect on the dove population.

7 One of the things that really concerns me

8 personally about having a late dove season, I mean

9 it's obvious -- I've heard (inaudible) from many in

10 northern Alabama in September. I know the birds

11 are not there.

12 The thing is that a lot of kids and

13 sportsmen their first exposure to the outdoor

14 experience is dove hunting. I want it to be a good

15 experience. I want them hunting when the birds are

16 there. And you know, we've heard this over and

17 over again that in late September and October the

18 birds are just not there.

19 MR. MOODY: They are gone

20 (inaudible) --

21 DR. STRICKLAND: I agree, but

22 they are just not there. But that's all I wanted

23 to bring forth.

30

1 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Dr. May, you

2 have the floor now.

3 DR. MAY: I disagree with you

4 because making a good experience for the

5 children -- I raised five boys, and I've carried

6 them on dove hunts. And if I carry them out there

7 on a hot afternoon, first weekend in September you

8 can't give them enough Seven-Up or Coca-Cola to

9 keep them satisfied (inaudible) the sweat is and

10 two and three of them are --

11 DR. STRICKLAND: From running

12 down the doves they're shooting.

13 DR. MAY: They don't have any --

14 they're wiping the sweat off their -- saying,

15 Daddy, let's go home. I don't think it's a good

16 experience for them to have. I want to carry them

17 out there when it's a nice fall afternoon and

18 there's plenty of doves going out they can have

19 some good shooting, so I want to point that out.

20 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE:

21 Mr. Fillingim, thank you very much for your

22 comments on this very controversial issue. I am

23 sure you will see a lot more discussion, maybe even

31

1 today, from the Board on this and from Mr. Pugh's

2 division.

3 Thank you very much.

4 MR. FILLINGIM: I want to thank

5 all of you-all for your time also.

6 MR. HARTZOG: Can I ask a

7 question?

8 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Yes,

9 Mr. Hartzog.

10 MR. HARTZOG: David, I know the

11 Feds set the regulations and I know the splits and

12 all or the number of splits controlled by the Feds

13 also, so we're only allowed three splits.

14 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: The next

15 speaker will be Don Epperson.

16 MR. EPPERSON: Mr. Chairman and

17 Board, I'm Don Epperson from Franklin County,

18 Alabama. I brought a petition from Franklin County

19 and Winston County to have our turkey season moved

20 to the same as south Alabama.

21 We feel this will be -- the land we

22 have and the turkeys we have would be beneficial to

23 everybody. So many people in our county and the

32

1 western county go down to Wood Creek (inaudible) I

2 feel like they're putting a lot of pressure on

3 those (inaudible) bring it up. I brought over a

4 thousand names, left more names that, then get the

5 petition up. There was tremendous response from

6 the people up there, and we've been talking about

7 this for a while, and we thought it was time to

8 bring this forward and see what we can work out.

9 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Thank you,

10 Mr. Epperson.

11 MR. EPPERSON: Thank you very

12 much.

13 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Mr. Hatley.

14 MR. HATLEY: Mr. Chairman, I

15 appreciate the words by Mr. Epperson in regards to

16 turkey hunting in Franklin County. And at the

17 appropriate time, I would like to ask the staff to

18 consider his motion or his request, and I concur

19 with what they're trying to do up there.

20 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: At the

21 appropriate time I will recognize you in a minute

22 to do that, Mr. Hatley.

23 MR. HATLEY: Thank you.

33

1 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Our next

2 speaker will be Kenneth Jackson.

3 MR. JACKSON: Mr. Moultrie,

4 Advisory Board Chairmen, Distinguished Advisory

5 Board Members representing congressional districts

6 of Alabama, my name is Kenneth Jackson. I'm a

7 community recreation officer for the U.S. Army

8 Aviation Center of Excellence, Fort Rucker,

9 Alabama.

10 This week I processed a request to

11 Mr. Grady Hartzog, District 2 Advisory Board

12 representative.

13 MR. HARTZOG: I passed out to all

14 the members a letter from Ken requesting the fall

15 turkey season for Fort Rucker.

16 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: All the

17 Advisory Board find that on their --

18 MR. HARTZOG: Yes, I handed that

19 out to everybody.

20 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Go ahead,

21 Mr. Hartzog.

22 MR. HARTZOG: You know, I talked

23 to Gary and Corky, and biologically there's no

34

1 reason why this would not be a good proposal with

2 and -- and I've talked to Ken extensively, and I

3 will give you an example of why I feel like this

4 would be a good thing to do in the fact that --

5 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Give us a

6 brief synopsis so that the minutes will reflect

7 what you're asking to be done.

8 MR. HARZOG: The Fort Rucker Base

9 encompasses land in Dale and Coffee County. It's a

10 large military base. They have their own game

11 wardens. They have their own game management

12 staff. They work hand in hand with Bill Gray in

13 that district. But we've got soldiers that are

14 serving this country that -- and I will give you an

15 example. I think there's about 150 troops coming

16 back into Fort Rucker within the next month that

17 didn't get a chance to spring turkey hunt. They

18 manage their ground more extensively than most

19 probably -- because they've got check stations

20 where (inaudible) checked out that's open to the

21 public. It would give those soldiers that serve

22 our country a chance to partake in the sport that

23 they didn't get to because they were (inaudible) --

35

1 And I just think that -- I know the

2 policy is that that we can't vote on it until this

3 fall, but we get the ball rolling so that in the

4 future that those soldiers may partake in the sport

5 that they were serving our country.

6 And so basically it's a motion to

7 allow fall turkey season in the same realm that the

8 other counties that are afforded fall turkey. The

9 same limits would apply. The same everything else

10 would apply, but it would afford the Fort Rucker

11 hunting area. And you've got the maps in the

12 letter that Ken served me, and I'd like to see us

13 move forward with that at the next meeting to

14 consider those.

15 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Thank you,

16 Mr. Hartzog.

17 Does any of the Board have comments

18 on this -- Mr. Hatley.

19 MR. HATLEY: I just have a

20 question. If we wanted to enact this this fall, is

21 there not some way that the Commissioner could

22 invoke on -- or staff can invoke an emergency rule

23 to apply to this, Corky.

36

1 MR. PUGH: Technically I think we

2 could, but I would advise against that.

3 Mr. Hartzog was accurate when he said that

4 biologically this makes no difference, but this

5 goes way beyond simple science. And I am looking

6 at some folks on this Board who like me are almost

7 rabid turkey hunters. And even though biologically

8 the fall season makes no difference, there's one

9 indisputable fact, and that's that a turkey that's

10 killed in the fall is not there to gobble in the

11 spring. And I would be very careful about, without

12 an adequate amount of time for public input, doing

13 something that creates a different opportunity for

14 harvest on Fort Rucker than exists in the

15 surrounding counties.

16 MR. HATLEY: Point well made.

17 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: In other

18 comments from Board?

19 DR. MAY: Is this just for Fort

20 Rucker reservation, not Coffee County?

21 MR. JACKSON: Yes, sir, and we

22 have 47, 50,000 acres of land. Our Outdoor

23 Recreation Advisory Board County has fully

37

1 considered this request. Our two wildlife history

2 biologists have done the same. We've coordinated

3 with the entire district office.

4 The tough thing about this is we have

5 the Spring Gobbler Wounded Warrior again. And a

6 lot of requests came for this program.

7 Thank you.

8 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Thank you,

9 Mr. Jackson. I think you will see the Board wants

10 to do anything for any of our folks that they are

11 serving, but I agree this needs to be reviewed

12 before the next meeting.

13 Mr. Hartzog, will you handle that

14 review, please?

15 MR. HARTZOG: Yes. And Ken, it's

16 my understanding the policy has been that in order

17 for the Board generally to consider that -- and

18 like I said, this been brought up to the Board

19 (inaudible) voted on at next meeting that generally

20 they like to have all the county commissioners sign

21 off on it and the probate judge sign off on it, and

22 I think it would be good if we have the National

23 Wild Turkey Federation sign off on it or get some

38

1 additional endorsements on it to protect us for

2 consideration to vote on at the next meeting.

3 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Mr. Hartzog,

4 I'd probably ask for the Board's opinion to know if

5 it would be interesting to poll these surrounding

6 landowners, or some of them, to get their opinion

7 on them not being able to hunt and the (inaudible)

8 being allowed to hunt. I think that would be

9 interesting to the Board.

10 The next speaker will be Mike Berry.

11 MR. BERRY: Good morning,

12 Chairman, good morning, Board members. I'm Mike

13 Berry. I'm a county commissioner in Macon County,

14 Alabama, and we had about 12 hunting clubs that

15 came to our commission and requested us to go on

16 record supporting dog hunting in Macon County. And

17 we did that, and you-all got a copy of that letter

18 I think in the last meeting, and we were -- and at

19 that time we published this in the paper, you know,

20 to let everybody in the county know that we went on

21 record supporting to dog hunting, and we hadn't had

22 any people come before the Commission since that

23 time and request any different. So I'm just here

39

1 today again supporting the dog hunters of Macon

2 County.

3 And another thing I would like to say

4 to the Advisory Committee, it looks like in Alabama

5 we're trying to put too much emphasis on commercial

6 hunting. We are putting our local people out of

7 business by letting these big companies come in and

8 charge big monies to let the people hunt in our

9 counties, and it's just not fair to the people of

10 the county. We need to look after our own citizens

11 before we look after people from other states.

12 Thank you.

13 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Thank you,

14 Mr. Berry.

15 The next speaker will be Jay Fenn.

16 MR. FENN: My name is Jay Fenn.

17 I'm from Clayton, Alabama, and I hunt in Barbour

18 County, and I just feel like -- well, I hunt with

19 the Dirt Road Sportsman's Dog Hunting. I felt like

20 I needed to come here today to defend us against

21 the speaker and the petition that came up at the

22 last meeting.

23 You know, we didn't know anything

40

1 about the petition. It made us out to sound like,

2 to me, outlaws, and that's not the way we hunt.

3 We're not -- that's not what we are. I mean, we've

4 been hunting there for 20 years, and we're all

5 hard-working family people that take our kids

6 hunting.

7 I mean, I don't know where the

8 problem came up with the petition. The lady that

9 spoke lives one mile from me, and in 16 years she's

10 never said a word that we were causing her a

11 problem -- not once.

12 And I just wanted to come today to

13 say that, you know, we're in it for the kids. You

14 won't see a truck in our hunting club that doesn't

15 have a kid in it. And you know, I just thought we

16 needed to defend it this morning because it was an

17 allegation brought against us. And I don't think

18 it was against any other club other than us in

19 Barbour County. It was directed straight at our

20 club, and I've never been associated with a group

21 of guys any better than these guys that hunt with

22 us in 16, 17 years.

23 And we just -- we have a good time

41

1 going out there. We don't want to bother anybody.

2 And we don't want to upset anybody or keep anybody

3 else from hunting.

4 I don't know how many names were on

5 the petition, but I know there's a lot of

6 landowners up there that are on our side on this

7 thing.

8 And like I say, we've been hunting

9 there 20 years, and the game wardens that are

10 protecting us, I think anybody this -- any of those

11 would verify the integrity of the guys that hunt

12 with us.

13 I mean, we've been hunting for 20

14 years and just hadn't had very few problems, so I

15 just wanted to defend (inaudible) and see if we

16 could keep it like it is.

17 Thank you.

18 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: The next

19 speaker will be Tony Haro.

20 MR. HARO: My name is Tony Haro,

21 and I'm the transplant that spoke to you folks last

22 meeting. The three minutes went awfully fast, so I

23 want to try to cut down. I'm from Dothan, Alabama,

42

1 and I'm a member of the Red Oak Hunting Club near

2 New Brockton.

3 Now, one of the things I want to

4 point out or bring up again is there was a

5 Mr. Gamble that spoke in the February meeting, and

6 he had brought up a a point that he had attempted

7 to send a letter or something to the Board about

8 adopting a formal complaint system and have

9 resolutions provided for any complaints that are

10 made. Because I believe we found that there's a

11 lot of frivolous complaints that are made. And

12 it's the idea just the more complaints you have

13 against dog hunters, the more grease gets to the

14 axle. So I don't know if you've pursued this any

15 further, but I believe that would help take care of

16 a lot of problems that we have.

17 And just kind of going on with the

18 previous speaker here, evidently he's had some of

19 these baseless complaints that have been made or

20 accusations against dog hunting. I took and got a

21 copy of the minutes for the February meeting. And

22 just to read some of the things -- now, listening

23 to them sitting here, it kind of gets jumbled. But

43

1 when you read them, there can get to be some real

2 unreal situations going on.

3 For instance, if you know anything

4 about dog hunting, this person here said that you

5 can't even walk for recreation down the county road

6 in front of your house and people are sitting there

7 50 yards apart, in four-wheel drive trucks. And

8 they take their dogs five miles down the road, turn

9 them loose on a dirt road, and stake out the road

10 five miles away.

11 Now, I'm kind of new to dog hunting

12 having moving down here from Indiana, and that's

13 utterly unreal. Nobody does stuff like that.

14 There were some other complaints in

15 here that were made by -- we got a neighbor here

16 whose gate was taken off the hinges and thrown onto

17 the side. We have other people that are taking

18 electric fences, pulling them loose and shorting

19 them out on posts so their dogs don't get burned.

20 Now, is that a real complaint, and

21 can you say that this person that made that

22 complaint is it baseless, or is it real? If we

23 hear it and don't question it, then if you're

44

1 wanting to cut out dog hunting, you can do it based

2 on -- just real quick then. I hope that no one has

3 lost their dog hunting privileges because of

4 baseless complaints that have been made and we're

5 not making any real effort to square them away.

6 Like I say, I'm a transplant down

7 here, and I have one reservation about the south.

8 And gentlemen, that is that I wasn't born down

9 here. And those of you that have been here and

10 have these cultural things and these traditions,

11 for God's sake, let's not be cutting them out.

12 Let's keep them together and keep them going for

13 the kids, so the kids and us old folks can enjoy

14 it.

15 Thank you.

16 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Thank you,

17 Mr. Haro.

18 The next speaker will be Don Knight.

19 MR. KNIGHT: Good morning,

20 gentlemen. It is almost a pleasure to be here this

21 time, not like usual. I come before you this

22 morning to thank this Board for meeting with the

23 dog hunters, for trying to work with us, trying to

45

1 get a permit system that will work, will help in

2 the problems that the gentleman was just talking

3 about, the frivolous complaints.

4 I want the dog hunters to take this

5 permit system when it comes up, and I hope the

6 Board votes it on in to take it as an opportunity,

7 not as a restraint.

8 It is an opportunity for to us to

9 prove that we're not wrong. It is also an

10 opportunity for the people on the other side that

11 do have complaints to have accountability of the

12 dog hunting clubs in that area. If you're a bad

13 club, I stand here and tell you that I want you

14 gone. If you're a good club, I stand here and tell

15 you I want you hunting.

16 We do not want bad clubs because the

17 good dog hunters take the penalties, and this Board

18 has now taken a step that will be presented today

19 to take charge of this, to make it where we can

20 work on it instead of just doing away with an area,

21 doing away with a county.

22 And Mr. Lynch, I want to thank you

23 for chairing this and setting up the meetings. The

46

1 gentleman from (inaudible) is here. I appreciate

2 his efforts. I appreciate all effort. I

3 appreciate this Board going to that stand to try to

4 help and solve these problems and get them to where

5 we don't have these problems.

6 It would be wonderful not to have to

7 come down here, and maybe this permit system if it

8 goes into effect, will lead to where the dog

9 hunting issues are not a problem.

10 The landowners, we can sit down and

11 talk. And I think this committee has shown that.

12 We will work with you any way we can to help

13 continue dog hunting in the state of Alabama where

14 everybody can be happy.

15 I thank you.

16 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Thank you,

17 Mr. Knight.

18 The next speaker will be Susan

19 Morrow.

20 MS. MORROW: Good morning

21 Chairman, Board members, I am Susan Morrow. I live

22 in Mobile, and I am a dog hunter and a stalk

23 hunter. And I'm here today to remind the Board

47

1 that in March of 2007 I came and talked to you-all

2 about two dogs had been shot in Choctaw County, and

3 we never found out who did it. I had a busted

4 collar, and I brought you-all all pictures of the

5 dogs that I found shot in the woods.

6 And at the last meeting it was

7 brought up that you-all were considering doing away

8 with the dog hunting in Choctaw County. I hunt

9 there. My grandkids hunt there, my kids hunt

10 there, and I would like for you-all to really think

11 about it. If it's a problem, then the landowners

12 and whoever has the problem needs to sit down and

13 talk about it. But please don't take anymore dog

14 hunting away.

15 And I'd also ask that you look at

16 again the petition that I brought for adding more

17 dog days to the management area.

18 Thank you.

19 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Thank you,

20 Ms. Morrow.

21 The next speaker will be Debra

22 Nicholson.

23 MS. NICHOLSON: Good morning,

48

1 Board members. I am Debra Nicholson from Elba,

2 Alabama, and I'm here today to talk in favor of dog

3 deer hunting.

4 I gave a -- they were supposed to

5 give each one of you-all a copy of the letter -- a

6 letter to the editor of (inaudible) where a citizen

7 of Coffee County wrote disputing that his name --

8 he had found out that his name was on the petition

9 and in Coffee County to do away with dog deer

10 hunting. He says he did not sign it, that his name

11 was forged, and I have heard several people say

12 that their name was on there and they didn't sign

13 it.

14 So I don't know how much faith

15 you-all put in a petition that is presented, but I

16 ask that before you do away with dog deer hunting

17 in Coffee County that you do check out and see if

18 it's legitimate signatures, because I understand

19 there were some names on there more than one time.

20 So I ask that you-all leave dog deer hunting in

21 Coffee County alone.

22 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Thank you,

23 Ms. Nicholson.

49

1 The next speaker will be John

2 Perkins.

3 MR. PERKINS: Thank you,

4 Mr. Chairman, Board members, my name is John

5 Perkins. I reside in Danville, Alabama, but I hunt

6 in Tuscaloosa County with Buck Horn Hunting Club

7 and have for the past 15, 16 years.

8 When we lost our dog hunting in

9 Tuscaloosa, we found out -- the day we found out

10 was the day that the new rules came out in the

11 Alabama Game and Fishery Regulations. There was no

12 notice. There were no complaints. We have yet to

13 have anybody stand up and say that we have a

14 problem with our hunting club. We hunt 10,000

15 acres. I'm not going to stand here and tell you

16 that there hadn't been a dog that's got on off of

17 our property. There probably has, but we also

18 brought a petition last meeting from the majority

19 of the landowners around us that have no problems

20 with us dog hunting.

21 But we lost it. I'm here asking that

22 somehow we gain our dog hunting back. The line was

23 drawn on 82. If you want -- I've yet to hear

50

1 anything out Tuscaloosa County period. It seemed

2 like it was all north of us. Why not put the line

3 at north Tuscaloosa?

4 Thank you.

5 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Thank you,

6 Mr. Perkins.

7 The next speaker will be Tony Wynn.

8 MR. WYNN: Good morning, Dan,

9 members of the Board. I am Tony Wynn, and most of

10 you know me. Probably getting tired of seeing me

11 come down here, and I am too.

12 I don't really know anything else to

13 ask you. I've brought you every kind of petition

14 that I know of that might show the interest to our

15 club being given their dog rights back.

16 I would like to say this. On March

17 9th my father passed away. He served as a ranger

18 during World War II in the Philippines. I don't

19 know how much hell I'm in with (inaudible) overall

20 of them wore a green beret and (inaudible) we

21 wasn't in Cambodia. But I do know that for the last

22 two years of my dad's life, he didn't get to dog

23 hunt. I do know that this Board can change that

51

1 for me my grandson. I don't know anything else to

2 say. We do want our hunting rights back.

3 Thank you.

4 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Thank you,

5 Mr. Wynn.

6 The next speaker is William Herren.

7 MR. HERREN: I'm William Herren,

8 or Bill most of the time. But I just say to

9 Mr. Moultrie and members of the Board I'm here to

10 express my appreciation for the fact that we

11 received a ban in Fayette County on the area where

12 our property is located.

13 And earlier the speaker spoke about

14 turning dogs loose and hunting along the roads five

15 miles away from where they turn them loose. They

16 didn't turn them loose that far from us, but they

17 turned them loose frequently on adjoining property

18 with no stand line and no systematic system of

19 hunting to keep the dogs or the game from coming

20 across onto our property.

21 Now, I feel like that the Board has

22 been extremely fair. You have been very patient to

23 hear both sides of the issue in our area, and you

52

1 took action to best correct.

2 (Off-record discussion.)

3 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Mr. Herren,

4 your three minutes has started over.

5 Thank you, Mr. Hatley.

6 You may continue.

7 MR. HERREN: It's always a

8 pleasure to come before the Board. But back to the

9 people hunting without a system and turning dogs

10 loose, we went to the people. We asked them --

11 don't run your dogs on the weekend and when our

12 children and when people in the family are working

13 and have an opportunity to hunt. When our wives,

14 our grandchildren, and our friends, and relatives

15 that are stalk hunting have to have dogs interfere

16 with them three times in one day, these are things

17 that we did. Everything we do to rectify the

18 situation, and it appears that the only thing that

19 could have been done was done, and we appreciate

20 what you have done.

21 This past season was an exceptionally

22 good season, and we did not have interference. We

23 had some dogs, but we didn't have people hunting on

53

1 the road. We didn't have packs of dogs. It was

2 just a straggler as it came through.

3 So we appreciate again what you've

4 done. Now, our position to begin with was that we

5 were not opposed to dog hunting. We were just

6 opposed to the people running dogs on our property

7 and interfering with our right to hunt, and we

8 still stand by that.

9 Last meeting we heard many people

10 from south Alabama with large tracts of property

11 that would run a dog all day and not on somebody

12 else's land. We do not object to people hunting

13 their dogs where they have the property and control

14 their hunts so that they don't interfere with the

15 adjacent neighbors and people in our community.

16 Thank you so much for the work that

17 you do and for the actions that you take to try to

18 be fair to all sides, involving the game that we

19 have as Natural Resource enforcement people and the

20 people in the situation. We appreciate all that

21 you do, and we thank you so much.

22 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Thank you,

23 Mr. Herren.

54

1 The next speaker will be Paul

2 Jeffreys.

3 MR. HARTZOG: Could I ask one

4 question?

5 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Yes,

6 Mr. Hartzog.

7 MR. HARTZOG: Mr. Herren -- and

8 I'm the new kid on the block, but Fayette is closed

9 anything west of 43 and north of 18. Is that where

10 you're located?

11 MR. HERREN: East of --

12 MR. HARTZOG: Are you located in

13 the closed area of Fayette?

14 MR. HERREN: I am in the closed

15 -- I am near Highway 13 on County Road 44, County

16 Road 24, and in the area north of the area.

17 MR. HARTZOG: Have you more or

18 less been aware of what the permit system is going

19 to do?

20 MR. HERREN: No, sir, I'm not

21 aware of that. I just say -- in attending meetings

22 for three years, we've talked to people that have

23 that permit systems, and it's my understanding that

55

1 they don't work all that well. And I don't see

2 them working in our area because of the small

3 acreage. There's no large (inaudible) everything

4 is two or three, 400 acres. And then our area

5 where we have 660 acres in one area, it's two 40's

6 wide or either three 40's wide, and it's a mile and

7 three-quarters long. Therefore, a dog can run a

8 deer across it in five minutes, but then run them

9 (inaudible) if we had a square, that would be in

10 good shape.

11 But I'm not aware of the details, but

12 I've also not talked to (inaudible) because it

13 (inaudible) that area.

14 MR. HARTZOG: Thank you.

15 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Thank you,

16 Mr. Herren.

17 Mr. Jeffreys.

18 MR. JEFFREYS: Members of the

19 Board, my name is Tom Jeffreys. I reside in

20 Detroit, Alabama in Lamar County. Several years

21 ago we came before you-all to ask you-all for a ban

22 on dog deer hunting, and it was granted. And we

23 have since not had any problems in Lamar County or

56

1 the surrounding area.

2 The land holds in our area is small

3 tracts, and they are locally family-owned, and

4 majority of those families like to hunt, and they

5 like to enjoy the past time.

6 I try to relate it to other things.

7 I understand why you-all probably golf and turkey

8 hunt. Well, my golfing is my deer hunting, and I

9 can assume that while you guys were out golfing,

10 you wouldn't appreciate four-wheelers running

11 across the golf course and interrupting your golf

12 game. Well, that's the way I view my deer

13 hunting.

14 When I take my family out on our

15 property we own, pay taxes on, we enjoy deer

16 hunting. And since you-all banned dog deer hunting

17 in Lamar County, I'm able to do that now safely.

18 My son is nine years old. He's already harvested

19 three deer. He's an avid hunter now. Before we

20 received our ban, I wouldn't dare take him with me

21 for worries about confrontations with dog hunters.

22 Before we got our ban, I brought

23 photos before the Board, related photos that I had

57

1 made during deer season with hunters lining these

2 roadways next to our property, turning dogs loose

3 uphill from their property where they run across

4 us. And since you-all enacted the ban, it has

5 worked 100 percent. We have no more problems with

6 dog hunters. We are able to enjoy our property.

7 And we just ask that you maintain our

8 ban. We do not want a permit system in our area

9 because it is our understanding that it will not

10 work and just open the door back up to what we had

11 to endure before. Whether or not they lose their

12 permits after they are issued, we will still have

13 to go through a period of time where we will pull

14 back into the dark areas that we have just pulled

15 ourselves out of with you-all's help.

16 So we just ask you maintain our

17 seasons ban on dog deer hunting and continue to

18 watch -- get that in our area.

19 Thank you.

20 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Thank you,

21 Mr. Jeffreys.

22 The next speaker is Paul Labriola.

23 MR. LABRIOLA: I would like to

58

1 thank you, Mr. Chairman and the Board, for the

2 opportunity to bring this before you. My name is

3 Paul Labriola, and I live in Birmingham, but I hunt

4 in Elmore County.

5 I was born and raised in the small

6 community of Titus, Alabama, and I began hunting

7 there 50 years ago. I'm not hardly 50 years old,

8 so again hunting as a very small child. At that

9 point in time my dad owned a small pack of beagles

10 and we dog hunted. So I'm not unilaterally opposed

11 to the practice of dog hunting.

12 However as things have evolved in the

13 community of Titus over the years, I have a small

14 graph that Robin had. If you will see in the

15 graphic, you can see maybe that the yellow

16 represents the parcels of the small group that

17 (inaudible) orange represents parcels that we know

18 for a fact that dog hunting is (inaudible) this is

19 just representative of the entire community. You

20 can see there are no large holds, and I do know

21 that there -- I only highlighted those areas around

22 the yellow that we have. I do know there are some

23 all through the community of Titus, and so I gave

59

1 Robin a petition that has signatures, majority

2 residents in the Titus community that request that

3 you restrict to ban dog hunting in that area

4 (inaudible) exact gentleman have spoken to, and the

5 dogs are put out on one parcel of property, and

6 they run through our property onto their property

7 back through onto somebody else's property from

8 road to road and area to area.

9 When I began hunting in Titus,

10 Alabama as a small boy, we had reasonable

11 expectations of harvesting deer. This last season,

12 myself and five other guys that hunted routinely

13 and regularly on this approximately 500 acres we

14 have access to, we've had three deer sightings. We

15 did not harvest a one.

16 But the locals in the community tell

17 me the dog hunting group, that it happens to be the

18 concern in the area, routinely bragged in the

19 community that they harvested 120 deer a year. I

20 don't know if I was doing it (inaudible) my point

21 is that in this condition and the circumstance, dog

22 hunting cannot be practiced ethically or legally or

23 safely. And that in this particular condition is

60

1 resulting in a severe over-harvesting of the herd

2 in this area.

3 And fundamentally myself and the

4 other members, men I hunt with and the other people

5 that want to hunt this small parcel, that

6 previously (inaudible) in this community and around

7 their home and all no longer can enjoy the sport of

8 deer hunting in this area.

9 Thank you.

10 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Thank you,

11 Mr. Labriola.

12 The next speaker will be James Price.

13 MR. PRICE: Good morning, I'm

14 James Price, Pickens County, Alabama. I want to

15 talk a little bit about dog hunting. I'm opposed

16 to dog hunting, and I'm proposed to banning dog

17 hunting north of 82 in Pickens County.

18 And I have dog hunted for 30 years.

19 I have 3,500 acres, and I do not keep my dogs on

20 that, and in 1993 I quit dog hunting because of the

21 complaints. My neighbors, landowners, stalk

22 hunting clubs, so I even had a three-legged dog --

23 couldn't keep him on 3,500 acres.

61

1 So I gave it up. Kept one hound dog

2 at my house and started stalk hunting. Well,

3 that's the best thing I ever did. Peace and quiet,

4 kill a lot more deer. And only problem I have now

5 is we have a dog hunting club close to us, so in

6 the middle of our tract of land and some more stalk

7 hunters, they have a small amount of land and we

8 constantly are having problems with dogs coming

9 through our land disturbing our hunting.

10 So I know you can't keep dogs on

11 3,500 acres. Now, 10,000 acres you might have a

12 pretty good chance. But if you got just a few

13 hundred acres, and even the small beagles they're

14 not going to -- so I am proposing a ban on dog

15 hunting in Pickens County, north of Highway 82.

16 I appreciate your time. And the dog

17 hunters we have now, they -- they got some great

18 deer dogs, and I'd like (inaudible) them. But they

19 do not -- I don't think they try to control them.

20 They run off the road and around houses, and you

21 see them standing in the roads. So I know it's

22 very dangerous for that type hunting, and

23 somebody's got 10,000 acres and do it the way it's

62

1 supposed to be done, I have no problems with that.

2 But the small amount of land, you cannot dog hunt

3 and be safe.

4 Thank you very much.

5 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Thank you,

6 Mr. Price.

7 The next speaker will be Trent Ross.

8 MR. ROSS: Good morning, my name

9 is Trent Ross, and I am also here to talk to you

10 about dog hunting north of 82 in Pickens County.

11 I've been hunting there since 1992,

12 and every year it's gradually gotten to be worse,

13 very overwhelming. Standers on the roads, shots

14 being fired on public roads, and now I have

15 children that are hunting. That's not the

16 environment that I take them out there to be in.

17 I would like to see north of 82 be

18 banned from dog deer hunting. If I'm correct, I

19 think Pickens County is the only county north of 82

20 that allows dog deer hunting.

21 And I appreciate your time.

22 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Thank you,

23 Mr. Ross.

63

1 The next speaker and our final

2 speaker will be Bryce Smith.

3 MR. SMITH: Good morning again,

4 guys, and welcome the new members. My name is

5 Bryce Smith. I own land in Choctaw County, and

6 back in the 2007 and 8 -- March 2007 -- well, in

7 2007, 2008 season we had dogs come through on a

8 semi-regular basis. Well, at the beginning of

9 2008, 2009 season about two days before hunting

10 season started, got called, and it was from an

11 adjoining hunting club that adjoined my land using

12 as -- poising dogs.

13 The reason I bring this up, at the

14 last meeting the gentleman got up here and said the

15 Smiths poisoned two dogs, and I'm here to tell you

16 it's a flat-out lie. We have never bothered

17 anybody or anybody's dogs. We caught dogs. We

18 caught a man's dogs that uses the poison and called

19 him to come pick it up this year.

20 And this year I was able was able to

21 (inaudible) go hunting probably five or six times

22 on the weekends. Every single time we went, we had

23 dogs ran on us.

64

1 And you know, it's to the point, just

2 like the gentleman said about three speakers ago,

3 it would be nice if you'd own your own piece of

4 land, hunt in peace. And occasionally here and

5 there, I would expect a dog to come through. I'm

6 not against dog hunting. I'm just going against

7 people that abuse it. And there are a lot of good

8 clubs out there, but there are some bad ones.

9 Somebody comes wants to threaten, making phone

10 calls and threatening your life to even go back on

11 your own property that you worked all your life to

12 buy, that's ridiculous.

13 And lastly Mr. Johnson's going to

14 make a motion to pertaining to the meeting, and I

15 hope that Dr. May or Mr. Brock Jones will continue

16 the effort, and I really would appreciate it if you

17 guys could get us some help because we're not

18 asking for the ban of the county or anything.

19 We're asking for some help to get a bad situation

20 evolved.

21 And I appreciate it. Thank you.

22 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Thank you,

23 Mr. Smith. The time is approximately 10:30. The

65

1 Board will recess for the next 15 minutes and meet

2 back promptly.

3 10:26 a.m.

4 (Short break.)

5 10:43 a.m.

6 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: The next

7 order of business will be Old Business.

8 We'd like to start Old Business today with

9 committee reports.

10 Are there any committee reports,

11 Mr. Lynch?

12 MR. LYNCH: Thank you,

13 Mr. Chairman. This may take a lit bit of a while.

14 The Dog Deer Hunting Landowner Rights Permit Study

15 Committee has been meeting for over a year and

16 looking into the issues that we have heard about

17 time and time again when we've come to these

18 meetings.

19 Many of you-all are here today on

20 those exact issues. From what I know during my

21 tenure and everything we've covered and everybody

22 else who came before me has said the same thing.

23 The purpose of our committee was to

66

1 focus on trying to see if there was a way to find

2 common ground that would give both sides of this

3 important issue an understanding of what this Board

4 would do on a first-case basis, going forward.

5 We asked Corky and his team to report

6 out to us, and they gave us a report in February of

7 this year on this issue and the issues we were

8 studying as a committee.

9 What basically came back from them is

10 that currently in Alabama if you look at the state,

11 about two-thirds of the state is still open to some

12 form of dog deer hunting and about a third of it is

13 closed to dog deer hunting. The last time that

14 they took the records was the '05, '06 season on

15 the number of hunters across the state of Alabama,

16 and it showed that there were approximately 205,000

17 hunters, give or take, and about 18,000 of them

18 were listed as dog deer hunters -- probably a

19 little more because some people hunt both ways, and

20 we think that number might have been a little

21 higher.

22 In looking at what they reported back

23 to us -- because they knew we were studying a

67

1 statewide permit that we would implement -- their

2 recommendations back to us was that we first look

3 at how dog hunting is working across the state,

4 look at the permits that are out there in place

5 today, and their recommendation was that we do not

6 go to a statewide permit first, but try to find

7 some system that we could put in place -- a permit

8 system -- on an individual basis, county by county,

9 parts of county, as a first step in trying to solve

10 this issue for everybody.

11 We talked with the dog deer hunters.

12 Don Knight was there representing the dog deer

13 hunters, and we talked to him a little bit about

14 the statewide permit system. He said that they

15 would actually support a statewide permit system if

16 it opened up all areas of the state, including

17 areas that were currently closed to dog deer

18 hunting -- to dog deer hunting.

19 As we worked through that, both the

20 staff -- Corky and his staff -- the landowners that

21 were represented and the Board members that were

22 there, had some concerns about taking that step as

23 well.

68

1 We decided then that that didn't seem

2 like, with the base of the recommendation from the

3 a ACDCNR staff, as well as what the dog hunters

4 said and what we knew from our position as Board

5 members, as well of the landowner representation

6 that was at the meeting, we decided -- okay, if the

7 statewide permit system does not work, what type of

8 permit would work well and why?

9 So at that time we reached out and

10 called Lieutenant Mike Pollard, who is very

11 experienced at enforcing and using the permit

12 system that we used down in the Wiregrass region of

13 the state. And we spent probably 15 or 20 minutes

14 talking to him about the areas in those counties in

15 that area where we do have a permit system in place

16 and why it was working well down there.

17 He basically told us that there was a

18 lot of things that he thought that gave the

19 enforcement officer the tools to get both sides

20 together and start a plan on how to see that these,

21 that both types of hunting can peacefully coexist.

22 The enforcement officer is probably

23 the first person who has the most intimate

69

1 knowledge of the areas, the geographic areas in

2 question, the different parties that it pertains,

3 to be it either landowners and dog hunting clubs.

4 He's the person that during the hunting season

5 rides those roads on a daily basis and touches

6 those people and should be the first person that

7 has a chance to try to find some common ground.

8 The permits itself give the

9 enforcement officer a lot of leeway in how he

10 interacts with the dog hunting clubs to support the

11 issues that the landowners have out there. He can

12 go into a club, identify individual problem members

13 of the club, and remove them from the membership.

14 He can identify individual clubs within a given

15 county, that club that is causing the problems as

16 well, and can take away their privileges to hunt.

17 He can also look at the permitted

18 areas that each club may have under permit and

19 actually modify the area that he permits so that

20 they can move out of troubled areas within their

21 own permit, but they still retain their rights to

22 continue to dog deer hunt.

23 So we felt that this was kind of

70

1 getting to where we needed to be, and it was a lot

2 of agreement throughout the room that this might be

3 a good chance to start using that.

4 One of the things we discussed also

5 was that while we feel strongly that there may be

6 potential for this permit system out there, there

7 are some places where a permit system may not

8 work. Specifically, that would be areas such as

9 the national forest, state game lands, and any

10 other county or municipal lands that might

11 currently be open to dog deer hunting and you want

12 to put a permit in.

13 The piece of the equation in talking

14 to the enforcement officers that doesn't work here

15 is that everybody has a right to hunt those areas.

16 But if you start giving one group a permit where

17 they actually don't own land or they don't lease

18 the land so they can they can do dog deer hunting,

19 you may be getting an imbalance of rights to hunt

20 that land.

21 In addition, as part of the permit

22 system, it helps the enforcement officers to have

23 an organized group to go look at when they go into

71

1 these public land places where they have to enforce

2 the dog deer hunting rules and know who they're

3 dealing with on a daily basis.

4 I would certainly encourage -- we

5 talked about this -- the young lady that spoke

6 about more time to hunt dog deer hunting on state

7 game lands, that do you everything in your power to

8 try to organize your hunts on those places so that

9 everybody there knows who all is hunting, and you

10 attempt to let the wildlife officers know -- here's

11 who's in our club and here's who's out here today.

12 And that you also understand that although it is

13 public lands, you have private lands that touch

14 those public areas, and you'll still have the same

15 issues that you face on a statewide basis as well.

16 After much discussion, the committee

17 came to the following conclusion. It is the

18 finding of the Dog Deer Hunting Permit Committee

19 that from this point forward in any county where

20 the dog deer hunting landowner rights issue is

21 causing concerns of a level where the ACDNR

22 Advisory Board must act, that the first and only

23 position the Board must take will be the

72

1 implementation of a permit system like the permit

2 system used in Covington County.

3 This includes any partial or complete

4 portions of any county. Basically what this

5 proposal does is it clearly states to everybody

6 here that going forward the first position this

7 Board will take on this issue is to put some

8 Covington County permit system in place, be it a

9 portion of a county or a whole county that is

10 currently open to dog deer hunting, and the dog

11 hunters out there will all know that going

12 forward -- if it passes -- that that will be the

13 first thing this Board does.

14 So it gives the dog deer hunters a

15 chance to continue to make it work, to work with

16 the enforcement officers to help get the clubs that

17 are not doing it the right way out and to

18 (inaudible) --

19 It also, because that we're using a

20 permit system that we do believe in -- and people

21 have testified here today that you don't think it

22 will work, but they are working some places -- it

23 gives the landowners the knowledge that the

73

1 enforcement officer is going to have the tools to

2 handle the situation in the best way he can.

3 As I mentioned, the officer itself --

4 the Board tries very, very hard to understand the

5 intricacies of the individual areas and counties

6 that make up our own districts. But the person

7 that should be the go-to person there is the

8 enforcement officer that's out there on a daily

9 basis. So it puts the enforcement and the first-

10 place knowledge in that person's hands of working

11 with the two groups.

12 And Allan, I would say that it is

13 going to be imperative going forward that if we

14 start any new areas where we go to this permit

15 system, that great care is taken up front by your

16 officers to meet with all the concerned parties in

17 that area and understand the ramifications of what

18 we face on an area-by-area basis.

19 What this does not do -- and a lot of

20 you expressed your concerns out here today -- this

21 vote, if passed, does not open any current areas

22 closed to dog deer hunting in the state. It does

23 not change any current permit system in place in

74

1 the state and the rules and regulations of those

2 permits. And it does not close any other areas of

3 any county or the state to dog deer hunting.

4 Mr. Wynn, I know you spoke -- and is

5 he still here --

6 MR. WYNN: Yes, sir.

7 MR. LYNCH: Mr. Wynn, I know

8 you've spoken to us several times, and while it

9 doesn't open any areas to the state, I will tell

10 you that one of the most impressive things that I

11 have seen since my tenure on this Board was when

12 Wynnton from down in Geneva County, they were faced

13 with potential closure of their county to dog deer

14 hunting. He came up to the microphone with the

15 landowner standing there with him, with the dog

16 hunter standing there with him, and asked this

17 Board to please give them a chance with the permit

18 system.

19 So I know you've talked about the

20 fact that, with your club there in Tuscaloosa

21 County, that you do have strong support from your

22 landowners, and I would just encourage you that a

23 great first step would be at some time to come in

75

1 front of the Board and stand there united with

2 those folks, speaking for both sides of that

3 equation.

4 MR. WYNN: I have given the Board

5 a document from the gentleman that owns 7,228 acres

6 of our land. He lives in (inaudible) Louisiana.

7 But if it will do any good, I will have him here

8 before dark if you-all want to talk to him.

9 MR. LYNCH: I told you to show up

10 before, right. It's not the gentleman that owns

11 the land, it's the neighbors that surround the land

12 that you need to have with you. You need to have

13 the whole community standing there together. It

14 just presents a lot more solidified approach to us

15 as having everybody standing there from the dog

16 hunting side and the landowner side to say we think

17 this would work in our area, and we're willing to

18 try the permit system.

19 So Dan, I would like as a Board

20 member now to make a proposal on this issue to the

21 Board and call for a vote.

22 DR. STRICKLAND: I second that

23 motion.

76

1 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: There is a

2 motion and a second. The motion being again --

3 MR. LYNCH: Let me read the

4 motion.

5 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Go on and

6 read the motion.

7 MR. LYNCH: That from this point

8 forward the ACDNR Advisory Board must always

9 attempt to find common ground on the dog hunting

10 landowner rights issues by first attempting to pass

11 a vote on the implementation of a dog hunting

12 permit system, like the one attached to this

13 motion -- in parentheses, Covington County Hunting

14 Permit Plan.

15 This vote may only be taken after so

16 stating that position at a previous Board meeting.

17 This must be done on any area in question of any

18 size and in any county where currently dog deer

19 hunting is allowed.

20 This is the exception I talked about

21 on the -- on the public land. The only areas in

22 the state where this process may not apply is on

23 any public areas currently allowing dog deer

77

1 hunting, such as, but not inclusive, of state land,

2 county-owned land, and national forest land located

3 within the state.

4 Any changes in policy in these areas

5 should only occur after careful consideration of

6 all concerned parties, both public and private, and

7 should also include public discussion at a previous

8 ACDNR Advisory Board meeting.

9 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Is there any

10 further discussion by the Board?

11 DR. MAY: Yes, I'd like to make a

12 motion that we table this motion. It's a pretty

13 complicated motion that you've made, and it covers

14 a lot of factors, and I think the Board -- all

15 Board members need to sit down and read this and

16 talk with the constituents of their district.

17 And I'm sure Mr. Harbin, he's not

18 able to be here. So it's (inaudible) also and

19 (inaudible) intensive care. I haven't talked to

20 him. This came -- someone else.

21 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Is there a

22 second to table this motion?

23 MR. JONES: Second.

78

1 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: We have a

2 second. We go straight to a vote. It takes a

3 majority vote.

4 All those in favor?

5 (inaudible.)

6 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: There's no

7 discussion on it.

8 All those in favor to table the

9 motion, raise your hand.

10 All opposed?

11 Motion failed.

12 Any other discussion on the previous

13 motion on Grant's motion?

14 MR. LYNCH: I'd just like to

15 clarify or go back on the comment that the Doc made

16 on it.

17 I did reach out and speak to George

18 Harbin this week. I took him through exactly what

19 my motion was going to cover. I will say that he

20 probably had some of the same concerns you've got,

21 Doctor, on that issue. But I tried to explain to

22 him that this is a process that's been going on for

23 more than a year where we have been talking about

79

1 trying to come to some way of finding common ground

2 that before we take the step of taking away

3 different ways of hunting game, that we will first

4 try to find that common ground and give the tools

5 to the people that can work on those issues on a

6 case-by-case basis, and we just don't end it with a

7 vote when he have an opportunity to find that

8 common ground and hopefully keep all of these

9 people that come here -- whether they be stalk

10 hunters or dog hunters in the woods as much as we

11 can.

12 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: In any other

13 discussion -- Dr. Strickland?

14 DR. STRICKLAND: I would just

15 like to hear one statement from Mr. Knight. I know

16 you work with the conservation officers and the

17 committee very closely, and you have all your

18 constituents with you in the audience.

19 What's your feelings about this,

20 where we are now and the direction that we're

21 headed?

22 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Mr. Knight,

23 would you come to the microphone, please?

80

1 MR. KNIGHT: As I said earlier,

2 I'm Don Knight, by the way for the recorder, but I

3 support this 100 percent as an opportunity for the

4 dog hunters and the landowners to work together to

5 solve these problems before they come to you. It

6 takes a lot off of you and takes a lot off of us,

7 and all these people that have to come down here at

8 every meeting, if we have a system set up, and then

9 if something comes up -- a complaint comes in, we

10 can handle it without it having to come to this

11 Board.

12 We need to work together as hunters,

13 all hunters. We need to support any way we can of

14 getting more hunters into the woods. We need to

15 support any way we can to get our youth hunts,

16 because we're losing them every day, every year.

17 And if it's stalk hunting or dog

18 hunting, I don't care. My grandson has been dog

19 hunting since he's big enough to get in the woods.

20 But when he gets 16, 17 years old and he wants to

21 stalk hunt and not dog hunt, I'm just proud he's

22 hunting. To give him that opportunity, and that's

23 what (inaudible) --

81

1 DR. STRICKLAND: Thank you,

2 Mr. Knight.

3 Grant, personally I see this as a

4 monumental step (inaudible) within committee. You

5 know I've been on the Board now for -- I think this

6 is my fourth year, and most of our conversation is

7 with regards to trying to get the landowners, the

8 dog hunters, the stalk hunters to work together. I

9 think this may not the (inaudible) but I certainly

10 think it's a great first step. I think we need to

11 go ahead and vote.

12 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: There has

13 been a call for a question. There's no discussion

14 on that.

15 All those in favor of moving to the

16 question, raise your hand. This vote takes a

17 two-thirds majority.

18 All opposed.

19 Motion carries.

20 The motion to be voted on is again

21 from this point forward that the ACDNR Advisory

22 Board (inaudible) attempt to dog hunting landowner

23 rights issues by first attempting to pass a vote on

82

1 implementation of dog hunting permit system, like

2 the one attached to Covington County Hunting Permit

3 Plan to this motion.

4 This vote may only be taken after so

5 stating that position at a previous Board meeting.

6 This must be done on any area in question of any

7 size and any county where currently dog deer

8 hunting is allowed. The only areas in the state

9 where this process may not apply is on any public

10 areas currently allotted to dog hunting, such as --

11 but not inclusive of -- state lands, county-owned

12 lands, and national forest lands located within

13 this state.

14 Any changes in policy in those areas

15 should only occur after careful consideration of

16 all concerned to parties, both public and private,

17 and should also include public discussion at a

18 previous ACDNR Advisory Board meeting.

19 All those in favor, raise your hand.

20 All opposed.

21 Motion carries.

22 Is there any other business,

23 Dr. May?

83

1 DR. MAY: I would just like to

2 make a comment. I do appreciate Mr. Lynch and this

3 committee doing their work, and I'm sure you put in

4 a lot of hard hours and all.

5 But as Mr. Price said earlier about

6 his three-legged dog, you couldn't keep a three-

7 legged deer dog with a 20 -- on 200 hundred acres

8 and that's a fact.

9 And I know Mr. Lynch knows a lot more

10 about NASCAR racing than I do, but I know more

11 about dogs than he does, I guarantee you. I'm

12 disappointed that I wasn't able to make more

13 comment as to why I was against this motion, but I

14 will abide by it.

15 Thank you.

16 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Any other Old

17 Business -- Mr. Jones.

18 MR. JONES: I would just like

19 clarification, if it's okay, on this that we just

20 passed. In a situation where there have been past

21 complaints about a dog hunting club, will that be

22 taken into consideration to -- from -- to pass or

23 allow a permit this coming season?

84

1 MR. LYNCH: Yes, I've got some

2 here.

3 MR. JONES: And as far as the

4 decision, is that going to be made by the

5 enforcement officers or the -- I mean, how can we

6 as a committee make a decision if it comes about

7 after the meeting today?

8 I mean, how is a decision going to be

9 made or who is going to be make a decision whether

10 to grant a permit or not?

11 MR. LYNCH: I believe the

12 decision has to come from the board member

13 listening to his constituents in his district,

14 working with the conservation officers, whether

15 it's an issue that they're just learning about or

16 an issue that's in an area you were aware of from

17 the previous Board member.

18 If it's been discussed at a previous

19 meeting, I don't think you had to be here to make a

20 motion on any given areas, but this says that the

21 first move we will do is to implement a permit in

22 any given area.

23 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Go ahead --

85

1 MR. JONES: I just want to make

2 sure I understand this. In other words, the

3 application is made, Advisory member -- Board

4 member and enforcement officer will review that and

5 on their own make a decision about whether to grant

6 it or not.

7 MR. LYNCH: That's correct. But

8 if you want it to be implemented during the 2009,

9 2010 season, this is our last public meeting before

10 that season, so the vote would have to be made

11 here.

12 MR. JONES: So in other words,

13 after today then, the answer to the initial

14 question is that it can't be denied?

15 MR. LYNCH: After today it can't

16 be voted on unless there's a special called meeting

17 for some reason between now and then, right?

18 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: By the way

19 your motion reads, that's the way I take it.

20 MR. LYNCH: So there's a

21 (inaudible) then we cannot act on his own.

22 MR. JONES: For the particular

23 district?

86

1 MR. LYNCH: Yes, if you have

2 knowledge of an issue that's an ongoing issue in

3 your district that's been discussed here before,

4 you can make a motion on that issue because it has

5 been publicly discussed in that area before.

6 The only place you can't make a

7 motion is like these other things. Without first

8 having it publicly discussed in our meeting, you

9 can't call for a vote. As long as it has before

10 then, you have the right to make that motion today.

11 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Let me ask,

12 too, counsel, David Dean, do you see any exception

13 to that?

14 MR. DEAN: I may need to get a

15 little clarification myself here, if I could.

16 It seems like the motion is that --

17 and correct me, Grant, if I'm wrong here -- but is

18 it the intention that if a vote be taken on a

19 particular county, that the county must have been

20 brought up at a previous meeting to vote on the

21 implementation of a permit system?

22 It seems to say that to me. In other

23 words, we have to say something about a county

87

1 today that you want to implement a permit system

2 on, but the vote on it could not occur today

3 because it would have to be brought up at a

4 previous Board meeting.

5 Now, if I'm not reading that right,

6 we may need to clarify the motion.

7 MR. LYNCH: Well, I'm not a

8 lawyer, but I wrote it. I wrote it with the intent

9 of knowing that there were motions potentially that

10 would have been made at our March meeting, and I

11 asked at that time to please table all those

12 motions until the Board could -- until the

13 committee could come back to the Board with an

14 advisory position on what to do on this issue.

15 So the intent of the language,

16 correct or not, is that anything that might have

17 been brought up for a vote in March by -- and got

18 tabled at that time by this motion could be brought

19 up today.

20 MR. DEAN: Okay, so in other

21 words, anything in March that a proposal to

22 implement a permit system on was discussed, you're

23 referring to something that at the March meeting

88

1 somebody said -- I want to implement a permit

2 system in a particular county?

3 MR. LYNCH: It's my understanding

4 that for a Board member to ask for a vote on

5 something, they first must bring it up during New

6 Business at a board meeting where you discuss the

7 issue in question.

8 Once you have had that discussion, be

9 it a catfish regulation or dog deer hunting or

10 fishing net ban or anything else, that sets the

11 stage for the potential vote on that issue at a

12 future Board meeting.

13 MR. DEAN: Right, I agree. I

14 just -- I wasn't aware -- I guess I couldn't -- I

15 just wanted to get clarification on that.

16 So this would include -- it would be

17 your intent to include -- and I see that how that

18 would have to be corrected to be read to do that

19 (inaudible) about implementing a permit system on a

20 particular county, therefore we've passed it with

21 this motion today. This would allow voting on the

22 implementation of a permit system in a particular

23 county that was brought up in March.

89

1 MR. LYNCH: Yes.

2 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: David, is

3 there anything that needs to be amended or Grant

4 needs to amend any part of this motion, in your

5 opinion, or can we clarify?

6 MR. DEAN: We may want to simply

7 amend the motion to clarify -- and we don't

8 necessarily have to read it again -- but just to

9 clarify that the motion would include the right to

10 vote on matters that have been brought up at

11 previous Board meetings, but were tabled. So it

12 appears that your motion includes things that were

13 brought up in the past that were tabled on the

14 implementation on a particular permit system in a

15 particular county.

16 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: You want to

17 make a motion to amend that motion?

18 MR. LYNCH: Yes, I will make a

19 motion to amend that motion to include the language

20 that he just stated.

21 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: In trying to

22 keep this in order off our little sheet here, that

23 will require a second. Is there a second?

90

1 There is.

2 Is there debate on that?

3 MR. HATLEY: No, I've been trying

4 to get the floor for 30 minutes.

5 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: And to modify

6 that to amend that to accept that it needs a

7 majority vote.

8 All those in favor, raise your hand.

9 All opposed.

10 The amend carries to amend the

11 motion.

12 You have a question, Mr. Hatley?

13 MR. HATLEY: I have a question.

14 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Mr. Hatley,

15 hold on the current question.

16 Dr. May has a question.

17 DR. MAY: Now, you mentioned

18 whether they had -- if someone asks to have a

19 permit in the last meeting that they would

20 recognize that.

21 Now, I had -- I was over -- I never

22 got the chance to make it. I had a motion to make

23 at the March meeting, and I also stated that I

91

1 wanted to make a motion at this meeting before

2 Mr. Grant Lynch made his motion that I couldn't

3 make those motions.

4 And am I allowed to make those

5 motions today?

6 MR. DEAN: Could you repeat

7 that?

8 DR. MAY: We've had -- I had

9 visited two counties -- Mr. Johnson's motion to the

10 Board at that time -- from trouble we were having

11 in Choctaw County and in Pickens County, and people

12 from both those counties have spoken before the

13 board at least twice. And we had a motion at the

14 last meeting to present. Before I could get the

15 floor, Mr. Lynch made the motion to table all

16 motions that wanted to ban any areas in any

17 counties. And before he'd even made that motion, I

18 had made the statement that I would also have a

19 motion on Pickens County, and I was -- have been --

20 that's been taken away from me, too.

21 So I'm about decided I don't even

22 need to represent District 7 and let somebody else

23 do it.

92

1 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: The chair

2 will defer to counsel on your opinion of the

3 matter.

4 MR. DEAN: If I understand, to

5 just amend the motion --

6 DR. MAY: Can I make a motion

7 today on those counties?

8 MR. DEAN: Did you -- you brought

9 up the implementation of a permit system?

10 DR. MAY: It wasn't on permit.

11 It was on banning an area.

12 MR. DEAN: Well, you didn't bring

13 up about the implementation of a permit system, I'm

14 not sure that that would be an appropriate thing to

15 bring it up.

16 DR. MAY: I should have had the

17 opportunity the last time, is what I'm saying, when

18 he made his motion that I couldn't make a motion.

19 MR. JONES: If I could say

20 something. I think the problem would be solved if

21 we have the opportunity to look at past complaints

22 and make a decision on reviewing a permit on those

23 specific complaints.

93

1 Now, can we do it from that angle?

2 MR. DEAN: We can do that --

3 MR. JONES: -- that have been

4 having problems for a couple of years, and one more

5 year we're going to have to wait before we address

6 the issue, waiting until the end of the season on

7 the permit system.

8 And I think Dr. May and I are saying

9 that we would like to address that issue if it's

10 through the permit system making a determination on

11 passing past complaints, we'd like to have that

12 opportunity.

13 MR. DEAN: Well, I think where we

14 are right this minute is that Mr. Lynch's motion

15 would require that there be a proposal that the

16 implementation of a permit system be made in a

17 particular county would have had to have been

18 brought up in a previous meeting, so that would be

19 the directive on voting on it today right now.

20 MR. LYNCH: The permit seems to

21 me -- there's two issues at play here. One is the

22 closure of areas of counties to dog deer hunting

23 where it's currently open, which I believe is

94

1 Dr. May's issue.

2 If I'm hearing you correctly, you

3 would like the ability to open up a permit system

4 in the areas that may be in your district that we

5 have talked about previously here as well.

6 So it's two different things in my

7 mind. Because it's been discussed previously, and

8 we just voted as a Board that we're going to go to

9 that policy going forward, he can put a permit

10 system in any area in any of his district that

11 exists now, as long as it's been discussed at this

12 meeting before.

13 Dr. May's issue is he was never able

14 to get this closure discussion to the floor for

15 that, and the only thing that I would say is that

16 is true.

17 But one of the reasons that we

18 decided to revisit the statewide permit was that

19 there were -- we were closing areas as a first

20 step. And as everything that came out of our study

21 and all the effort that we made to find common

22 ground on this issue, and we just all voted that

23 that's what we're going to do going forward.

95

1 It seems like that while your

2 statement is a fact that you couldn't get that

3 motion to the floor, then ten of this Board -- and

4 it was pretty strong on the vote -- is to go to the

5 permit system going forward.

6 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: David, Gaines

7 Smith makes a good point. I would like for him to

8 apply that.

9 DR. SMITH: The point I was

10 making is I think that the practice has been if the

11 issue has been brought up in previous discussion

12 and previous Boards, not necessarily the solution

13 to it. So in my mind this would say that since

14 Dr. May and the previous person from that same

15 district had brought the issue up for

16 consideration, it does allow an opportunity for it

17 to be heard -- closed it last time, but this Board

18 here to change that.

19 It's the same issue but different

20 solution, different end result is what we're

21 dealing with.

22 MR. DEAN: I think maybe if we

23 want to go that route, that's something the Board

96

1 wants to consider, we need to further amend the

2 motion to say that it has been brought up or

3 discussed at a previous meeting. Because I think

4 the language here specifically refers to "so

5 stating". So stating that there be an

6 implementation of a permit system. I think that's

7 too narrow, unless we want to broaden it to include

8 these things.

9 Whatever the Board wants to do --

10 MR. LYNCH: I make that motion

11 now.

12 Is there a second?

13 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Is there a

14 second for amending the motion?

15 There is a second.

16 There's no discussion. It takes a

17 majority vote.

18 All those in favor?

19 DR. STRICKLAND: Before we vote

20 on this, could I just have a brief discussion?

21 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: There is

22 discussion.

23 I apologize, Dr. Strickland, yes.

97

1 DR. STRICKLAND: One other

2 fundamental flaw that I see, Grant, is that it

3 seems as though we need to have some mechanism to

4 issue a temporary permit, because this could -- if

5 not, we're going to continue to run into this

6 problem. We have to have a meeting. It has to be

7 discussed and then voted on.

8 And that could delay -- delay the --

9 drag this process out for quite some time. And I

10 don't know if that's something that you -- that the

11 committee has thought about or entertained, but it

12 seems to me that that conservation officer needs to

13 have the ability to issue a temporary permit or

14 something needs to be done to stop, you know --

15 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: That's a

16 little different issue than what's before the Board

17 I think right now, Dr. Strickland.

18 Is there any other discussion on

19 amending the motion?

20 MR. JONES: Well, I need a

21 clarification on that.

22 My understanding of what you're

23 saying is instead of this specific situation in

98

1 Choctaw County, Pickens County that Dr. May is

2 talking about, instead of going the route of

3 exempting a certain area, we're going to go the

4 permit route, is that what you're saying? That's

5 the only way that we're able to address that

6 specific situation because now we can't do it

7 through omitting a certain area, it's going to have

8 to go through the permit process?

9 MR. DEAN: Right.

10 Unless the Board wants to vote

11 otherwise, it could be over.

12 MR. JONES: And if we could get

13 clarification on how that process will now take

14 place.

15 Are we going to decide today, or do

16 we have a -- that's what I am trying to understand

17 is on that specific permit -- I mean, the club has

18 got to -- has got to fill out the permit. They

19 can't do it today, they're not here. And then

20 we've got to evaluate the permit it, so I don't see

21 how that can be done today, but I think it needs to

22 be done before the --

23 MR. LYNCH: Allan, could you

99

1 address that please?

2 MR. ANDRESS: I just want to make

3 sure there was no misunderstanding on my part, on

4 the part of the Board, on how the permitting

5 process works itself.

6 Typically, what will happen is the

7 Board, at least in the past, has voted to adopt a

8 permit plan for a particular area, and then they

9 turn it over to the division to take care of all

10 the application process, the approval process, and

11 all of that up to that point. And then the Board

12 is not directly involved in approving or

13 disapproving particular permits.

14 Does that clear that up any at all?

15 MR. JONES: Well, I guess what

16 I'm saying is this is a situation that has been

17 going on for a while. Landowners have asked for

18 relief, and I would like to get that issue

19 addressed now before the season starts, instead of

20 them having to wait another year to address it.

21 I mean, the permit may be granted,

22 and that's fine. But I just feel like that

23 personally that we owe them the opportunity to

100

1 address the issue now.

2 Dr. May was trying to -- was trying

3 to get it addressed last meeting, and that's my

4 only argument is that we've already had the

5 complaints, the issues have been investigated, and

6 I feel like it needs to be in some way that we can

7 look at these specific situations, Choctaw and

8 Pickens County and address that.

9 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Mr. Hatley,

10 do you have any discussion on amending the motion?

11 MR. HATLEY: Yes.

12 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Go ahead.

13 MR. HATLEY: What we are

14 discussing here are two different things. We

15 hadn't got all the apples in the same barrel. And

16 what our newest member here is bringing up is not

17 germane to the original point that we were talking

18 about. And we have had discussions through the

19 committee about protocols that were to be

20 established.

21 And Allan, and what we were talking

22 about it, seems to me, is in a reversal role. All

23 this is to set the right protocols in the

101

1 beginning, establish those, then we will work from

2 the bottom back to this Board, not -- don't mean

3 that derogatory -- and I apologize.

4 I want to go from the complaint to

5 the enforcement, in all areas, then come to this

6 Board or to the representative of that district and

7 analyze it from that standpoint, not coming from me

8 back down this way.

9 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: That's the

10 reason we have consulted counsel, Mr. Hatley.

11 Before we close anybody's hunting

12 rights today, we're going to make sure that we're

13 in order. And again, Mr. Dean, we defer to you to

14 clarify that so that -- I want the Board absolutely

15 clear on what they're voting on and whether that

16 can be done or not done today.

17 MR. HATLEY: We've already voted

18 on it, have we not?

19 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Now we have a

20 motion that's been seconded to amend that motion to

21 allow that to happen.

22 MR. DEAN: In response to

23 Mr. Jones' question, if this vote to amend --

102

1 further amend the motions passes, then I think it

2 would enable the addressing of those specific

3 concerns that you have, provided that those

4 concerns have been brought up in a previous meeting

5 in some form or fashion.

6 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Okay.

7 DR. MAY: Well, are we going to

8 be able to ask for these counties to go under a

9 permit system immediately?

10 MR. DEAN: Yes, sir, if it's been

11 brought up before today.

12 DR. MAY: (inaudible) brought up

13 before.

14 MR. DEAN: We're broadening the

15 language so that it will not be restricted to just

16 them having brought up specific implementation of a

17 permit system, but rather the subject area problems

18 and so forth.

19 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Is there any

20 other discussion on amending it to broaden that

21 what he just spoke on?

22 All those in favor, raise your hand.

23 All opposed.

103

1 Motion carries to amend the motion.

2 Okay, any other Old Business --

3 Mr. Self.

4 MR. SELF: Mr. Chairman, at your

5 previous meeting I brought before the Board a

6 proposal for the a Rabbit Island Sea Grass

7 Protection and Restoration Project, a project that

8 was -- where a grant had been obtained through the

9 nature conservancy and its coastal in Mobile.

10 I requested that a regulation be

11 drafted, and that has been done. It's Regulation

12 2009-MP-3, and I will just read the meat of that

13 regulation to you.

14 It shall be unlawful to operate a

15 combustible engine on the (inaudible) in the areas

16 designated by a series of signs and messages in the

17 vicinity of Rabbit Island and Ono Island, and Ono

18 Island to Old River South of Ono Island and Baldwin

19 County.

20 In the designated area all vessels

21 equipment with internal combustion motors,

22 gasoline, or diesel motors for pumping must turn

23 off the internal combustion motor and it's possible

104

1 to do so in to raise the internal combustion motor

2 out in the water.

3 The use of (inaudible) motors is not

4 prohibited. Any person violating this provision is

5 (inaudible) provided by 33-5-62 Code of Alabama

6 1975.

7 This regulation shall become

8 effective on the 36th day after filing with the

9 legislative record service.

10 And I would like to make a motion

11 that we pass this regulation.

12 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Is there any

13 discussion on that?

14 MR. HARTZOG: Just one question.

15 Basically the reg is for the

16 disturbance of cutting up the grass, right?

17 MR. SELF: That's correct.

18 MR. HARTZOG: Why would the

19 legislature be (inaudible) --

20 MR. SELF: They don't protrude

21 far enough below the water, nor do they propel the

22 water strong enough to hurt the grass.

23 MR. HARTZOG: Okay.

105

1 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: In any other

2 discussion?

3 Is all the Board clear on the

4 motion?

5 In lieu of repeating it, we will --

6 if everybody is clear on it?

7 All those in favor?

8 All opposed?

9 Motion carries.

10 Any other Old Business?

11 DR. MAY: I'd like to hear about

12 the permit system again, make sure I understand

13 it.

14 Do I have to make a motion today that

15 these two counties be put on the permit system?

16 Then I'd like to make that motion?

17 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: And the

18 motion is again, Dr. May?

19 DR. MAY: Pickens County and

20 Choctaw County be put on a permit.

21 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: We have a

22 second.

23 Is there any discussion?

106

1 DR. SMITH: Does this include the

2 entire county area, Dr. May?

3 DR. MAY: Well, I was only going

4 to recommend banning a certain portion, but --

5 MR. HATLEY: That is not what the

6 motion stated.

7 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: What motion?

8 DR. MAY: I just said the motion

9 I was going to make on banning back in March would

10 have just been a portion of those counties, not the

11 entire county.

12 And if you want that area, I will be

13 glad to give it to you or you can put the whole

14 county on the permit system.

15 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: So it was

16 just what you discussed before, Dr. May, is that

17 the your motion, okay --

18 Is everybody clear on that?

19 MR. HATLEY: I don't think that

20 we've ever discussed this motion at any meeting.

21 DR. MAY: We have not discussed

22 the -- now I have that motion --

23 MR. HATLEY: That's right, so how

107

1 do we know what you're talking about?

2 DR. MAY: Well, I can read it to

3 you.

4 But what I'm saying is they won't let

5 me make that motion, and I'm asking can I make the

6 motion to go on those areas to go under a permit

7 system.

8 MR. HATLEY: That's the decision

9 of the chair, not mine.

10 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Well, we will

11 allow it, per counsel clarification, that Dr. May

12 make those motions.

13 And that motion is on the table for

14 discussion right now.

15 DR. MAY: In the Choctaw County

16 area the motion pertains to starting at the

17 Mississippi state line all the way down into

18 Mississippi, follow it to State Highway 10 south of

19 Butler, Alabama. And the (inaudible) follow out on

20 State Highway 17 south to the junction of Choctaw

21 County Highway 18, Baldwin County Highway 18,

22 southwest of the junction of County Road 14,

23 Autuaga County Road 14, west of the Mississippi

108

1 state line, Choctaw County, Mississippi.

2 The one on Pickens County would read

3 everything north of Highway 82 in Pickens County

4 starting at Mississippi going to Tuscaloosa line,

5 following the Tuscaloosa line north to the Lamar

6 and Fayette County line, and following that line

7 west of the Mississippi line. See, everything in

8 Pickens County north of Highway 82.

9 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Is all the

10 Board clear on it -- before we call for the vote,

11 is the Board clear on Dr. May's motion?

12 Is there any clarification needed

13 within any of the Board members again?

14 MR. HATLEY: I'd like to --

15 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Mr. Hatley,

16 go ahead.

17 MR. HATLEY: I'd like to go on

18 record as stating that I think the method that

19 you're using to arrive at this is not legal.

20 Now I want to go on record, Mr. Dean,

21 to point that out.

22 Secondly, I'm not sure if we're

23 voting on a closure, or are we voting for a

109

1 permit.

2 And if we are voting for a permit

3 today, we are going against what the committee has

4 recommended that we voted earlier, regardless of

5 the amendments you have placed on it.

6 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: If I follow

7 you, Mr. Hatley, believe we voted to --

8 Mr. Dean, I'd like to have you at the

9 microphone, too.

10 -- that when we amended that motion

11 that we allow this motion to be made because it was

12 priorly done at the previous meeting.

13 Is that correct, Mr. Dean.

14 MR. DEAN: Yes, the motion as

15 amended would allow for the imposition of a permit

16 system today with a positive vote by the Board if

17 the matter had been discussed by Board members at a

18 previous meeting.

19 Rather than just having brought up

20 the specific point in the previous meeting, then a

21 Board member saying I want to implement a permit

22 system in that particular county.

23 So with the broadened language, I do

110

1 feel like we are legal here. Whether or not the

2 Board wants to the follow the procedure, that's up

3 to the Board.

4 But that's -- through what we have

5 voted on today, I think it is a legal for the Board

6 to implement that.

7 And be it well advised or not, I

8 understand different people may have different

9 ideas on that.

10 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: And

11 Mr. Hatley, so you will be clear, is the motion on

12 a permit system for the areas of those two

13 counties -- as Dr. May described -- is there any

14 other discussions before we vote on a motion?

15 MR. HARTZOG: Grant, one

16 question.

17 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Mr. Hartzog,

18 you have the floor.

19 MR. HARTZOG: Scratching your

20 head a little bit.

21 Your motion basically says that when

22 there's a problem area, then the Department can go

23 in and require that area or that club to go on a

111

1 permit, no matter what county it's in, right?

2 MR. LYNCH: No, it is the Board's

3 position going forward in addressing the dog deer

4 hunting landowner rights issue within counties, the

5 Board first must take the step of implementing a

6 permit system first and not closure of the area,

7 and that it -- just like all other things we have

8 to vote on -- you have to discuss it here first and

9 talk about why you're going to bring it up for a

10 vote in a future meeting, or why it's an area of

11 concern that continues to cause concern in your

12 area, and you may bring it up for a vote at a

13 future meeting.

14 That's the intent of letting the

15 folks know --

16 MR. HARTZOG: I got you.

17 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Is there any

18 other discussion?

19 Is everybody clear -- okay.

20 All those in favor, raise your hand.

21 All opposed?

22 Motion carries.

23 Any other Old Business?

112

1 MR. SELF: Mr. Chairman, at our

2 previous meeting, I requested that an emergency

3 regulation be issued to set a surcharge of zero

4 dollars to the saltwater fishing licenses, was a

5 regulation 2009-MR-2.

6 And I want to make a motion that we

7 now make this a permanent regulation.

8 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Is there a

9 second?

10 Any discussion?

11 No discussion.

12 I think everyone is clear on the

13 motion.

14 All those in favor, raise your hand.

15 All opposed?

16 No opposition, motion carries.

17 Any other Old Business -- Mr. Jones?

18 MR. JONES: Yes, the youth

19 hunters of our state are our future, as many of us

20 said today, to benefit and encourage all of the

21 youth hunters of our state and mentioned in your

22 past meeting.

23 I would like to make a motion to

113

1 expand the youth deer hunting days for this

2 upcoming season by two dates.

3 The proposed date would be November

4 13th, which is a Friday, through November 16th,

5 which is a Monday.

6 And that would be a motion that I

7 would like to make.

8 DR. MAY: Which four days are you

9 speaking?

10 MR. JONES: Yes, it's four days.

11 DR. MAY: You might check -- I

12 read your e-mail, and it's according to two deer a

13 a day, doe or buck. But if we go four days --

14 MR. JONES: Just four days is

15 really the motion.

16 DR. MAY: But they wouldn't be

17 able to take four bucks. I don't think you meant

18 to do that. Because it's four days --

19 MR. JONES: I will leave the

20 legal -- Dr. May, all I'm really changing is days.

21 DR. MAY: I think it's fair.

22 MR. JONES: It probably was.

23 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Mr. Jones, is

114

1 that for this season only or going forward that you

2 make that motion, to clarify that?

3 MR. JONES: Going forward.

4 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: You said this

5 season, so I want to clarify that.

6 MR. JONES: I understand -- going

7 forward.

8 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Any other

9 discussion?

10 Any other questions?

11 Okay, all those in favor, raise your

12 hand.

13 All opposed?

14 No opposition, motion carries.

15 Mr. Lynch?

16 MR. LYNCH: I have one county

17 that I have spoken of at two or three previous

18 meetings that I would like to put under the new

19 permit system, stating that all portions of Macon

20 County currently open for dog deer hunting be

21 placed under the new permit system for the 2009,

22 2010 deer hunting season.

23 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Is there a

115

1 second?

2 There's a second.

3 Is there any discussion?

4 With no discussion on that motion,

5 all those in favor?

6 And all opposed?

7 Motion carries.

8 Any other Old Business?

9 MR. LYNCH: I've got one more

10 thing.

11 Don, this is a reaching out to you --

12 as we discussed at our committee meeting, I'm still

13 concerned about the lack of organization of the dog

14 deer hunting in Talladega and Clay County, and I'd

15 like to work with you this year to see if we can

16 find any continuity up there and get those people

17 more of an understanding of the surrounded

18 landowners and then potentially have to use the

19 other part of the motion that we passed here today

20 too.

21 So that's a reach-out from me to do.

22 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Is there any

23 other Old Business?

116

1 DR. MAY: I'd like to make a

2 statement that I promise that I'm going to bring

3 you a motion on defining the area and all the

4 (inaudible) be. The more we're doing, the harder

5 it gets to try to cover every corner.

6 And the main purpose that I want to

7 get that defined is we're not being able to get

8 courts to convict anyone for baiting.

9 And Allan and them -- and Allan, I

10 talk to him a lot -- and the areas don't have to be

11 defined.

12 And I haven't given up, so I will be

13 back with it. We're going to have to -- and you

14 got the hunters, they don't know what the area is.

15 And people that want to supplemental feed, they

16 don't want to get arrested and (inaudible) they're

17 probably not going to get arrested, but they want

18 to supplemental feed, and then you have to stop

19 during hunting season, and during hunting season

20 that's when the stress parts of the season that

21 they need supplemental feeding.

22 But I will be back with it, and maybe

23 at the next meeting, but I'm going to continue to

117

1 work on it.

2 Thank you.

3 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Thank you,

4 Dr. May.

5 Is there any other Old Business?

6 No response.

7 With Old Business being done, the

8 next order of business is New Business.

9 Is there any New Business -- yes,

10 Mr. Andress or Mr. Pugh?

11 MR. PUGH: We need the Board to

12 vote on the seasons and limits that were discussed

13 in the last meeting and also the sale of game fish

14 regulation that was discussed.

15 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: If I wasn't

16 mistaken, Mr. Sealy -- Commissioner Sealy, I

17 thought we approved all you-all's regulations

18 approved last time as amended, is that correct?

19 Let's go ahead to approve it just in

20 case, just to make sure.

21 Is there a motion for that?

22 Is there a second?

23 Okay, any discussion?

118

1 MR. LYNCH: Clarification.

2 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Yes.

3 MR. LYNCH: It does include the

4 selling of game fish in the motion?

5 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Mr. Pugh,

6 could you get to the microphone and address that?

7 MR. PUGH: I think it's really up

8 to the chair whether you handle it in one motion or

9 two.

10 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: If we can,

11 I'd like to handle it in one motion. And if that

12 includes it, that'd be fine.

13 Is there any other discussion?

14 MR. JONES: Amendments that have

15 earlier been made today?

16 MR. HARTZOG: Can I ask one

17 question?

18 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Yes.

19 MR. HARTZOG: On the alligator

20 hunt in Barbour County, and Houston and Russell

21 Counties, the whole counties. And I think last

22 year, what did they have, 50 permits -- 40 -- so

23 this is doubling it, but we're quadrupling the

119

1 size.

2 Is there any way in upping the quota

3 a little bit?

4 MR. MOODY: We're doubling the

5 size, but we're still having concerns about the

6 amount of because of boundary line of the lake

7 being on the west of the shore.

8 MR. HARTZOG: Right, but you

9 included east of the --

10 MR. MOODY: In talking with Bill,

11 it still seemed like there's still not a lot of

12 public water, but we're not opposed to monitoring.

13 We just feel like it's a reasonable step to take.

14 MR. HARTZOG: Have there been any

15 steps made any further to coordinating between the

16 state of Georgia in half acres?

17 MR. MOODY: We've had discussions

18 with them. They just are farther along than we

19 are, and they do it. If you will notice this time

20 we have copy of it. But we have also done some

21 things on the way that we're going to get the

22 information back to the county. It's is kind of

23 more liberal, so I think we're getting there.

120

1 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Any other

2 discussion?

3 Mr. Pugh, would you clarify those two

4 issues one more time?

5 MR. PUGH: What we need is the

6 Board to formally approve the season and limit

7 recommendations that were presented by staff and

8 voted on preliminarily at the last meeting.

9 And also a regulation that prohibits

10 the sale or purchase of game fish.

11 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Any other

12 discussion?

13 Everyone clear?

14 Dr. May?

15 DR. MAY: Yes, I'd just like to

16 make one comment -- I've made most of it already.

17 On the dove I disagree with your

18 seasons you are having on, and I think we're

19 hunting too early and too long, and I just want it

20 on record that I'm against it, hunting that early

21 on.

22 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Any other

23 discussion?

121

1 All those in favor?

2 All opposed?

3 Motion carries.

4 Any other New Business?

5 Mr. Hatley, I told you I would tell

6 you the appropriate time to talk about turkeys and

7 your issues.

8 Now is that appropriate time.

9 MR. HATLEY: At this time it is

10 not appropriate. I have already discussed that

11 with the staff, and we'll work on it at a later

12 time.

13 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: I did not

14 want you to be bypassed in New Business.

15 MR. HATLEY: Yes, you did.

16 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Is there any

17 other New Business?

18 Mr. Self, as a reminder, is there any

19 New Business, a motion you may have?

20 MR. SELF: Well, I was waiting

21 for a section of the date and location of the 2010

22 Advisory Board meeting first.

23 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Well, we can

122

1 do that.

2 The next order of business is the

3 date and location of the February 2010 meeting.

4 The date will be the 13th of February

5 -- 6th of February and the location will be

6 announced as soon as possible.

7 It will probably in Montgomery,

8 though.

9 Mr. Self?

10 MR. SELF: Mr. Chairman, I'd like

11 to make a motion that we approve all regulations of

12 the Department of Conservation and Natural

13 Resources that have come before the Board since our

14 last meeting.

15 CHAIRMAN MOULTRIE: Is there a

16 second?

17 There is a second.

18 Is there any discussion?

19 All those in favor?

20 All opposed?

21 Motion carries.

22 Being there's no further business,

23 this meeting stands adjourned.

123

1 11:56 a.m.

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

124

1 CERTIFICATE

2 STATE OF ALABAMA )

3

4 COUNTY OF MONTGOMERY)

5

6 I hereby certify that the above and

7 foregoing hearing was taken down by me in stenotype

8 and the questions and answers thereto were

9 transcribed by means of computer-aided

10 transcription, and that the foregoing represents a

11 true and correct transcript of the testimony given

12 by and witness upon said hearing.

13 I further certify that I am neither of

14 counsel, nor kin to the parties to the action, nor

15 am I in anyway interested in the result of said

16 cause named in said caption.

17

18

19 __________________________________

20 Victoria M. Castillo, Commissioner

21 Certified Court Reporter

22 ACCR#17-Expires: 9/30/09

23 Commission Expires: 5/19/10 23

125