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14/10/2558 Dharma Wheel • View topic Are Karma and Rebirth Real?

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Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64458)by KevinSolway » Sun Nov 06, 2011 2:09 am

Have you considered that ALL of the realms are not physically real. That is, they are real, butno physically real.

They are mentally real, but that is all.

That is in fact my position. Not only are the hell realms not physically real, but nor are thepreta realms, the animal realms, the human realms, deva realms, etc.

They all exist within the mind, here and now.

The vast majority of homo‐sapiens on earth are in fact in the lower realms, mentally, andthis is very real.

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Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64459)by Malcolm » Sun Nov 06, 2011 2:10 am

Namdrol wrote:Vasubandhu also rejected the physical existence of hell realms, but did notreject their existence altogether.

KevinSolway wrote:

And you know this how?

Namdrol wrote:The suffering of a being experiencing a hell realm is far worse than anyimaginable human suffering, however.

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Unlike yourself, who cannot accept anything beyond your own senses, and cannot accept anyauthority beyond your limited direct perception, I am happy to accept the authority of theBuddha on such subjects.

N


Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64460)by Malcolm » Sun Nov 06, 2011 2:14 am

Vasubandhu did not reject the conventional physical existence of human realms and so on ‐‐merely the physical existence of hells since he reasoned that hell gaurdians must only bemental projections of the tormented. '

It is only when discussing how phenomena exist ultimately that they are ascertained to be"mind‐only".

If however you maintain that phenomena are only mental real, then you very little basis forrejecting any of the six realms, and none whatsoever for rejecting rebirth as frogs, devas,and hell beings, as well as humans.

In fact, you just sank your whole argument against rebirth. Saying that literal rebirth is not afact when you at the same time deny that there is any physical reality at all is incoherent.

N

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KevinSolway wrote:

Have you considered that ALL of the realms are not physically real. That is,they are real, but no physically real.

They are mentally real, but that is all.

That is in fact my position. Not only are the hell realms not physically real, butnor are the preta realms, the animal realms, the human realms, deva realms,etc.

They all exist within the mind, here and now.

The vast majority of homo‐sapiens on earth are in fact in the lower realms,mentally, and this is very real.

Namdrol wrote:Vasubandhu also rejected the physical existence of hell realms, but didnot reject their existence altogether.








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Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64461)by padma norbu » Sun Nov 06, 2011 2:17 am

Quick question: One major way Buddhist hell differs from Christian hell is that the Buddhisthell is not full of demons who leave hell to go torment human beings and torment them andtempt them, correct?



That was his big mistake. He shouldn't have stopped at the hell realms, but should haveconsidered the rest of the realms as well.

I don't reject any of the realms. They are very real, and are experienced here‐and‐now,mentally.

In our English language we have terms like "lounge lizard", "silver fox", "pig", "cow", "snake","rat", "chick", etc, which recognize certain mental faculties in people which resembleanimals. We also refer to people as "devas", "demons", and "monsters".

If a person is reborn as a "frog", then it happens right here‐and‐now, mentally, and not aftera person physically dies.

I don't deny that there is a physical reality, but the language of rebirth in the scriptures is notabout physical reality. It is about experienced reality.



Some Buddhists, such as myself, believe that hell exists here‐and‐now, for those people whoare caused to experience it, while others believe it exists in some other place, or after our

Namdrol wrote:Vasubandhu did not reject the conventional physical existence of human realmsand so on

padma norbu wrote:Quick question: One major way Buddhist hell differs from Christian hell is thatthe Buddhist hell is not full of demons who leave hell to go torment humanbeings and torment them and tempt them, correct?















physical death.



Namdrol, hell‐beings in Buddhism are pretty much "locked" in hell, correct? Demons don'tcome out to tempt us poor humans in order to cause us to become wrathful or whatever andbe reborn in hell realms, right? I haven't been able to read much about hell beings' karmicvision other than they may, for example, see a pool of water as lava while a god might see itas a pool of nectar (and of course it appears to us as water).

By the way, this idea of different appearances based on karmic vision just seemedphenomenally stupid to me for the first time. It pretty much requires some sort of new ageinterpretation of quantum theory about collapsing the wave form by the act of perception:ie. depending on your karmic vision, the wave form collapses differently and so, miraculously,what appears simply as H20 becomes a more complex form of chemistry to hell‐beings, andnow there is the addition of silica, aluminium, potassium, sodium, calcium etc. as well asextreme heat in order to form lava. I find no reason to believe this.


Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64480)by Virgo » Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:48 am

So if I encounter a frog, is that a being who was mentally reborn as a frog during a human lifebecause of a mindstate, or is it just a real frog? And If it is not a person who was mentallyreborn as a frog during a human life (which it obviously isn't), then where does this living,breathing, feeling frog come in to things? Is it only a projection of my mind, and "from it's ownside" there is no frog there experiencing things?

Kevin


Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64481)by alwayson » Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:53 am

I did not read this whole thread.

KevinSolway wrote:If a person is reborn as a "frog", then it happens right here‐and‐now, mentally,and not after a person physically dies.

I don't deny that there is a physical reality, but the language of rebirth in thescriptures is not about physical reality. It is about experienced reality.















But has anyone noticed that karma is NOT in the 12 links of DO?



Hi Padma,

No addressed to me, but can I take a stab?

Until their karmic cause for being there expires. Some people find an exit and make apromise to never do what they did again to get there and can climb out.

No but sometimes that generally have been in hell for a very long time, or are going through aperiod where they go to hell frequently, by some karma get a quick human birth and liveamong us. A lot of time they are exceedingly evil, because those are the tendencies theyhave built up over time, even though they happen to experience a human birth this time dueto some other karmic causes. Also, Yakshas or other demons can be reborn as humans, andfor example, want to eat people.

It's not ridiculous at all. Why does someone with cataracts see what you see as white asyellow?* Why can you distinguish green from blue from gray, but someone who is color blindsees them all as the same?

*Sometimes the example of jaundice is used, but as I understand it, jaundice does notactually cause people to see white as yellow.

padma norbu wrote:hell‐beings in Buddhism are pretty much "locked" in hell, correct?

padma norbu wrote:Demons don't come out to tempt us poor humans in order to cause us to becomewrathful or whatever and be reborn in hell realms, right?

padma norbu wrote:By the way, this idea of different appearances based on karmic vision justseemed phenomenally stupid to me for the first time. It pretty much requiressome sort of new age interpretation of quantum theory about collapsing thewave form by the act of perception: ie. depending on your karmic vision, thewave form collapses differently and so, miraculously, what appears simply asH20 becomes a more complex form of chemistry to hell‐beings, and now there isthe addition of silica, aluminium, potassium, sodium, calcium etc. as well asextreme heat in order to form lava. I find no reason to believe this.







Kevin



These are oft‐repeated examples from various Buddhist teachers, but let's be scientific‐minded scrutinizers for a moment: does the color blind person or jaundiced person actuallychange the structure of the appearance? In order for water to appear as lava, it is muchmore than a color shift due to faulty personal equipment. A better example would be aninsane person who believes his friends and family are demons... however, even this is not avery good example because we are in the same realm and can clearly see he is suffering amisperception of our shared vision; he is obviously not a preta or hell‐being or anything else.The thing that always trips me out about this whole idea is the simple fact that we can whipout microscopes and scrutinize at a very fine level of detail. It's not foggy, dreamy stuff "outthere" that we just aren't looking at closely. In our world, whether it's water or lava, there isa very different chemical structure; is it not the same in the hell‐beings' dimension? If it is,then why would we believe we are sharing phenomena with different appearances? Differentchemical structures = different appearances. Weirder to imagine different appearancesoverlapped in the same space. Then again, quantum physicist Michio Kaku believes it lookslikely that the are dinosaurs in our living room in a different wavelength or frequency orsomething, so what the hell do I know?



Virgo wrote:It's not ridiculous at all. Why does someone with cataracts see what you see aswhite as yellow?* Why can you distinguish green from blue from gray, butsomeone who is color blind sees them all as the same?

*Sometimes the example of jaundice is used, but as I understand it, jaundicedoes not actually cause people to see white as yellow.

Kevin

padma norbu wrote:These are oft‐repeated examples from various Buddhist teachers, but let's bescientific‐minded scrutinizers for a moment: does the color blind person orjaundiced person actually change the structure of the appearance? In order forwater to appear as lava, it is much more than a color shift due to faultypersonal equipment. A better example would be an insane person who believeshis friends and family are demons... however, even this is not a very goodexample because we are in the same realm and can clearly see he is suffering a











I'll be honest with you Padma. I feel science is extremely limited. It's very young, and it willneed more time before it can advance further, but, because of the very nature of thescientific method, it is very good for certain things, and very limited for others. For example,it does not accept logical inference. I am not downing the practical value of science (it isextremely helpful in certain ways, no doubt), but I think modern people are way tooscientifically minded, to their detriment. All the bullshit you believe from science will berevised within a hundred years. People practically worshiped Newton, and his theories areright. But when you look at later scientific developments, you realize his theories weren'tthat right.

So I'm really not concerned with what science has to say about this.

Kevin



Nagarjuna, for example, is scientific method in philosophy and when I refered to "science"here I was including philosophy (not religion or faith‐based arguments [e.g. "I trust thetantras"]) since philosophy is logic‐based argumentation. So, then, your example of jaundiceand color‐blindness do not hold up to logical scrutiny since it is very easy to poke a hole in thecomparison, as I have. As a matter of fact, I would like to read anything Nagarjuna has to sayabout the possibility of various realms and appearances.

Oh, btw, I'm not saying I don't believe in this idea. I'm just saying there must be somethingmore to it and much of the explanation is missing. Difference in appearance of the sameobject only goes so far in my relative experience and I suppose it is impossible to analyzeother realms or dimensions from this one, eh?

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misperception of our shared vision; he is obviously not a preta or hell‐being oranything else. The thing that always trips me out about this whole idea is thesimple fact that we can whip out microscopes and scrutinize at a very fine levelof detail. It's not foggy, dreamy stuff "out there" that we just aren't looking atclosely. In our world, whether it's water or lava, there is a very differentchemical structure; is it not the same in the hell‐beings' dimension? If it is, thenwhy would we believe we are sharing phenomena with different appearances?Different chemical structures = different appearances. Weirder to imaginedifferent appearances overlapped in the same space. Then again, quantumphysicist Michio Kaku believes it looks likely that the are dinosaurs in our livingroom in a different wavelength or frequency or something, so what the hell do Iknow?












by KevinSolway » Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:39 am

I don't think I've ever met a person who was mentally born as a frog, so I'll speak of a personwho is mentally born as a fox, if that's okay.

A person who is mentally born as a fox will have the physical form of a human being, but themental characteristics of a fox. They will have little in the way of consciousness and wisdom,but they will be stealthy and cunning, naturally sexual, and with few qualms about harmingothers for their own gain.

We say that such a person is born as a fox purely as a means of descriptive convenience. Wedon't intend to imply any physical relationship to an actual physical fox.

If you encounter a physical fox or frog, there's no easy way that I know of to discover whethertheir mind has any significant relationship to any human.

Does that make it clear?


Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64505)by Caz » Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:55 am

Mentally born as a fox ? Where did Buddha teach about being mentally born as an animal ?

People can act like animals sure but they are even mentally far from them.


Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64509)by LastLegend » Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:24 am

I will say I am experiencing physical or serial rebirth right now as I am possessing a physicalbody right. Though ultimately rebirth whether physical or mental is an illusion, but only toBuddha or an enlightenned being. At my level right now, my mind is not empty. And if you hitme, I will feel pain and react. So you can tell me this is an illusion but I will still feel pain.

I don't know if rebirth is an illusion or not because I am not enlightenned or Buddha. But Ibelieve that it is.

Virgo wrote:

So if I encounter a frog, is that a being who was mentally reborn as a frogduring a human life because of a mindstate, or is it just a real frog?

KevinSolway wrote:If a person is reborn as a "frog", then it happens right here‐and‐now,mentally, and not after a person physically dies.













If rebirth is an illusion, why do I feel pain?


Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64510)by retrofuturist » Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:33 am

Greetings,

With respect to realms, perhaps it would be more profitable to regard them as experientialthan to bifurcate them as mental or physical?

Maitri,Retro.



I'm happy to go along with that, but then "experiential" sounds a lot more mental thanphysical. Namdrol will be turning in his grave!

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retrofuturist wrote:perhaps it would be more profitable to regard them as experiential than tobifurcate them as mental or physical?

KevinSolway wrote:

I'm happy to go along with that, but then "experiential" sounds a lot moremental than physical. Namdrol will be turning in his grave!:

retrofuturist wrote:perhaps it would be more profitable to regard them as experiential thanto bifurcate them as mental or physical?
















How do you know it's more mental than physical? If you have a mental experience of softnesswhen you touch something soft are a soft physical object, as well as your physical sensoryapparatus, not both necessary for that mental experience to arise?

Kevin


Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64518)by muni » Sun Nov 06, 2011 7:38 am

Well pleased to meet you, not any difference from all other imagined titles anyway.

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So I'm a person named "Dave"... and to top it off, I'm a female, dancing dog aswell!







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