Expert Panelist: HG Tudor

Bree: Hello this is Bree Bonchay and welcome to the 2018 survivor empowerment telesummit,

brought to you by World Narcissistic Abuse Awareness Day, and sponsored by The CPTSD

Foundation. It's our joint mission to raise awareness about the damaging impact of narcissistic abuse

and bring you the most informative and empowering information from the world's leading industry

experts. Athena Moberg and I are so glad that you have chosen to join us and hope you will be

encouraged by the messages of hope and practical tools for recovery.

Hello. Today we have HG Tudor with us and he is a clinically diagnosed narcissist and author of

numerous books. He writes extensively about the mind set and controlling tactics of narcissists and

psychopaths so those who are ensnared in pathological relationships can gain valuable insight into

what they must do and not to in order to escape.

Hi! Welcome back to the Survivor Empowerment Telesummit. We just interviewed HG Tudor, which

some of you may or may not know is a self-proclaimed narcissist. He has a site and he does give a lot

of great insight for survivors and his message is definitely “no contact”, just don't engage and get out

of the relationship and save yourself, protect yourself but there are some people who, just because

he's a narcissist, are triggered by that and we definitely understand that and if that's you then we

encourage you just not to listen and listen to the other interviews but for those people who want to

give it a try and listen then if you are feeling…

Athena: Yeah.

Bree: …triggered, why don't you talk about some of the ways that they can identify if they are

starting to feel triggered so that they don't get in a total emotional flashback about something?

2018 SURVIVOR

EMPOWERMENT TELESUMMIT

BROUGHT TO YOU BY

WORLD NARCISSISTIC ABUSE AWARENESS DAY

SPONSORED BY

CPTSD FOUNDATION

Athena: Yeah, that’s a really great point Bree. For those of you listening who have any type of

experience with someone who is pathological, someone who you feel may be narcissistic,

sociopathic, psychopathic, etc. even sadistic, some ways that you can tell immediately if you're

feeling triggered—you could feel a queasiness in your stomach; you could find that you're forgetting

to breathe; you may have inadvertently held your breath and you didn't realize it. Your mouth could

start to feel dry. Your hands could start to feel clammy. You could feel frozen, paralyzed. Your heart

rate could be elevated and before this trigger throws you into a complete and total emotional

flashback that could last minutes, hours, days, weeks or months… Bree, why don't you go ahead and

share with everyone an easy way where they perhaps could practice some grounding techniques just

to …not only should you stop listening if you feel that you may be triggered by this interview but do

follow through with some grounding techniques that Bree will share with you right now.

Bree: Sure. So the exercise I want to share is called the 5 senses grounding technique and it's super

easy and you can do it anywhere. So what it will do is it can reduce anxiety by calming your nervous

system and by pulling you out of a flashback by bringing you into the present. It literally ground you

back into the present. All you have to remember to do the exercise is 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 and the first step is

to look around your environment and look for 5 things you can see. It could be anything. It could be

windows. It could be pictures. It could be your phone. The next step is to think of 4 things you can

hear. So listen to your surroundings. What do you hear? Is there a television on? Can you hear birds?

The next step is to think of 3 things you can feel. So this is where you would pay attention to your

body. Can you feel your back against your chair? Can you feel the soles of your feet on the ground?

Can you feel your clothes on your body? The next step is to think of 2 things you can smell. So if

there isn't because sometimes there is not then if you just imagine 2 senses that you really enjoy;

that also can work. And then the last one is one thing you can taste. So if you're near your bathroom,

you could even just put a little bit toothpaste in your mouth or if you have a mint nearby but if you

don't then just again just imagine something that you really enjoy tasting. So this technique will

bring you back into your body. It will calm your nervous system. It will help reduce anxiety and you

can just repeat it as often as you need to.

Athena: Yeah. Worst case scenario you guys if you're in a frozen state and you're paralyzed and you

forget about the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 technique that Bree just shared. You know, it is sometimes helpful to

put some ice in a bowl, put some water in the bowl with the ice, put your hands in the ice water, it

will disengage your hypothalamus. You will be able to come into your body rather quickly and then

you can think of the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 technique that Bree has just shared with you. So we are recording

this Tele-summit and volunteering our time and connecting with all of these experts in the field of

narcissistic abuse and pathological relationships because we want to be of service to you and we

want to help you be better equipped to live a healthy life and make healthy choices and be able to

live with freedom and to feel empowered regardless of what you've been through previously. So we

hope that you receive this interview in the manner in which it's intended and that is one of

empowerment and to equip you to move forward in a healthy way whether that be with someone

pathological in your family of origin or a past love interest, a boss, a co-worker, a friend and just

listen cautiously. Listen at your own risk and if you are an HG Tudor fan then welcome. We're really

glad that you're here and we are certain that you will enjoy this interview.

Bree: You know, I should just mention. I didn't mention it earlier but I've had people ask me Athena,

“Well, you know, why do you need to have a narcissist on? This is for survivors. This is a healing and

empowerment event for survivors, why even make a narcissist part of it?” and I'm… okay, I wanted

to explain that basically when we have people on to talk about healing or manipulation tactics or

you know, if we don't include narcissists, what we're getting basically is we're only kind of looking

through the lens of a survivor or maybe not a survivor but somebody who isn't a narcissist and I

think to do a thorough sort of examination on this topic. We really need to look through all the

lenses because the narcissist or narcissist or psychopaths and they speak about the tactics and stuff.

They're speaking from how they're doing it not how other survivors perceive them or perceive the

reasons or motivations for what they're doing and I think it's just good to have a really thorough

perspective so that survivors can get the best information and heal and move forward with their

lives.

Athena: Well said. Well said Bree. I know I have heard a lot of people or several, a handful of people

make a comment about that like, “Wow! Is that something you really should be offering?” If this is

supposedly going to be healing and empowering for others and to your point Bree, I do feel that we

are taking our power back. We are empowering ourselves with not only our perspective as someone

who's experienced narcissistic abuse but we're empowering ourselves with the actual—the

perspective of the abuser, their perspective—how they feel or don't; how they think; how they plan;

how they plot; how they perceive and to be equipped with that type of perspective that perhaps is

not something we would ever think of because we look at them from our lens and we see them as

human and perhaps wounded or traumatized or this is a result of trauma and abuse and not to say

that it's not but it is very helpful and very empowering to hear someone who is self-proclaimed

narcissistic sociopath and share their thoughts and their perspective and their angle and their

motivation and their goals.

Bree: Exactly.

Athena: It's very empowering.

Hello, HG. Thank you so much for coming back again this year. Bree and I are so excited to welcome

you back and we want to thank you for helping us raise awareness and raise the profile of

narcissistic abuse.

HG: You’re most welcome. Thank you very much for inviting me back. Pleasure to be here.

Bree: Well, we're certainly excited about what we're going to talk about today which is why no

matter what you do, you can never win against a narcissist. You can never get them to change their

behavior but before we do, I just wanted to begin and ask you. If you have any advice or a

suggestion or you're—what you usually tell people who contact you, what's the best way a survivor

can empower themselves after narcissistic abuse?

HG: In terms of empowerment, very simple platform is that you operate from the basis of

understanding. First of all, it wasn't your fault and secondly that you always ought to obey the first

golden rule of freedom is what I call it. You might want—you could rebadge that as a first golden

rule of empowerment. That is once you know, you go, you get out and stay out… go so as I call it

which is very simple. When you realize you're dealing with a narcissist, get away from that individual

which of course is through no contact. That's how your empowerment will happen because you will

get away from the abusive behavior that you are experiencing. You will deprive us as providing fuel

as I describe it which is your emotional reactions. Furthermore, you allow yourself time to get your

emotional thinking under control which then allows you to gain better understanding. People make

a significant mistake initially of wanting to try and work out all the narcissist behavior, “Why did he

do that? Why did she say these things?” and that's understandable because many victims are truth

seekers. They need to understand things. They need to make sense of it. They need the nuances to

understand what's been going on. At that point when you’re in your maelstrom, it's pointless

because there's so much going on and your emotional thinking is trying to drag you back into your

understanding with us that if you try and work things out, you will perhaps understand and it sort of

explains to you but it won’t stick in and you won’t be able to apply it and all you do is you go round

and round in circles. So for some people, they may have got their emotional thinking under degree

of control and they could make sense of things but for those who are very much in that maelstrom

of need to empower themselves, obey that first golden rule: get out and stay out and that

everything else will follow from there.

Bree: I think that's really good advice. I don't see any way to heal if you are in a relationship within a

narcissists or a sociopath or in contact with one that you don't have to be… you know when your

self-esteem is being chipped away and you're being abused and criticized and gas lighted, there's

really no way to empower yourself or take back that power because it's constantly being ripped

away and chipped away.

HG: That's right. The difficulty is for people is that if you continue to engage with those. By engage, I

mean spend time with us, talk to us, do things for us, talk about us, most of all - think about us.

What you're doing is you’re feeding your inherent addiction to us and that causes your mind to

operate in a particular way so that it keeps causing you to keep going back to us. Your emotional

thinking is cunning and conniving. It dresses things as perceiving logical when they're not. So take for

instance, the narcissist ends the relationship but doesn't tell you and then he’s next seen getting

around town with a new person. They individual who seem fund with that relationships come to a

conclusion understandably thinks, “Well, why did he do that? I need to go and find out the answers.

I need to understand why he didn't have the courtesy of telling me it was over. What have I done

wrong and why is he staying with her?” Now in any other circumstance, those are all logical

questions but in the context of dealing with a narcissist, they’re pointless because all it will happen is

you will get dragged back into engaging with us. You want to talk to us. You want to talk about as

when you speak to your friends. You will think and keep churning it's over and over and over and at

that juncture, we're not going to give you the answers because that isn't in our interest to do that.

You'll just be given a word salad. You'll be further manipulated or they’ll be the blame-shifter and

tell you something you've done and again your mind’s racing around and you won't be able to

understand what's being told but all you need to understand at that point is, “No, I don't need to go

talk to find out the answers. I don't even need to go and tell the narcissist that he's a complete

bastard and I hate him. I don't need to start throwing eggs at his car. I don't need to go and convince

all of his friends about what he is.” All of that if you continue to engage with those in some form and

your emotional thinking flies off the charts and you won’t be further forward. You need to distance

yourself. So it's a very simple rule. If you think of doing something as you've tried to escape and

empower yourself from beings from our kind, if that contravenes that very simple rule of not getting

out and not staying out then you mustn't do this. You mustn’t go back to the narcissist and ask,

“Why did you do this to me?” you mustn’t go and see his father and say, “Tom has behaved like this.

Do you know what's behind it?” you don't sit around having an adult bashing session with your

friends. Yes, it might feel cathartic to a degree but ultimately, it's not going to get you anywhere and

by obeying that very simple rule at the start, you don't have to grapple with everything else. You

don't have to grapple with trying to understand all perspective because at that juncture would be

too hard for people to understand because there are so many thoughts racing around your mind.

Pull it down to that one simple principle and obey it.

Bree: You know, it's true. It's like trying, and we do try to understand it because we want to make

sense of it but you’ve clearly express that it's not something that makes sense or will make sense to

us.

HG: Yup. You could do so at a later juncture, maybe several weeks down the line. When I speak to

people, I recognize that there are those that come and the emotional thinking this is got hold of the

means that no matter what I tell them, I know they understand the context of the conversations I'm

having with them but it won't be allowed to sink in. It's like if you imagine your mind is a receptacle

and it's at 98% full, how could the knowledge that you're being given a discussion with me actually

sink in if it's full of your emotional thinking? Drain that and then there's room for your

understanding to get a foothold and apply it but you're not in a position to utilize and apply the

understanding. You caught, go into the detail of the narcissistic perspective why we operate with the

twin lines of defense, why you can’t cause us to do something with a guarantee that we will do it for

you, that you will be able to grasp our talks at logic or/and all of that in time make perfect sense to

you but at that juncture, it's not the appropriate time to try and get into all of those principles and

understanding much as you'd like to because all you will do is keep going but I don't understand why

did he, why did she? You know you've got to ask those questions. You've got to get yourself. You

could create that firebreak. You've got to get yourself away from the influence of the emotional

thinking which is us because every time you think about us… bang! That emotional thinking goes up.

You see us and it goes again, you talk to us and that's how people get drawn back in within the

salami slicing tactics because your emotional thinking makes you think that you should engage with

us and then you'll lose your insight. You'll hit a tipping point. So, you might think, “Well, what's the

harm? The narcissist come around to speak to me. What's the harm in me giving 5 minutes?” well, 5

minutes becomes 10 becomes 20 and what happens is your emotional thinking latches on to this

discussion and then we start to say things nice to you and you think, “Oh, yeah! He's being good to

me.” And your emotional thinking wants more of that and then all of a sudden, you're making his

dinner and you would have sworn early that day that you hated us and you would never speak to us

again and for anybody that might think, “Oh no, once I realized that I would never engage with that

person again.” I could give you hundreds of people I've spoken to and that's precisely what has

happened. They have said at the outset, “I know what that person is and I don’t want anything more

to do with them.” But then they engage. It’s a slippery slope because by engaging, you're allowing

those emotional thinking to start filling up again and you'll hit a tipping point. Some people, the

threshold is very low indeed. Some people falls higher but one can’t say that at 78 interactions with

us, that’s there tipping point. You don't know precisely when it will be. So that's why you would obey

that rule. If you don't to engage with us, you can't get it right by as again your emotional thinking is

nothing to latch on to.

Athena: I have a question for you, HG. We touched on this briefly last year and I would love for you

to perhaps, on this line that you're on right now, share about the golden rule or the “one rule of

empowerment”, which is, “once you figure it out, get out.” What would you say to our listeners that

are applying this knowledge—this wisdom that you're sharing to the relationship they have with

their family of origin… let's say their father or their mother and it's perhaps guilt that keeps them

tied to that person or their parents are getting elderly and now it's sort of “their turn” to come in

and take care but their parents, but of course, they use that as an opportunity to exploit and abuse

further.

HG: Yes. Being in a position whereby I look at these masses dispassionately and objectively without

the burden of guilt or conscience or remorse that people who instead have, I always explain that

ultimately this individual even though they maybe your mother or father if you've determined that

that individual is a narcissist, you have to cut them out of your life no matter how hard that is

because all that will happen is the same dolls that you've done for many a year will continue because

that individual is not going to change and that may well lead to some hard decisions for the

individual to take but if you want to empower yourself and get away from this influence that is what

you must do. And, of course again, your emotional thinking will be trying to con you by saying,

“That’s your mother. She's not very well. You can't leave her in the lurch.” However, you've got to

realize that is what is going on in your mind that is designed to coax you back and continue the

relationship and if you want to… you're an adult and if you decide, “Well, I still want to maintain that

relationship with them.” That's your choice but it becomes very hard because you'll be the one that's

making the compromises. You can enforce your boundaries as much as you like but what you're

doing is you are susceptible to our behaviors and that means going back to what I say here earlier on

that when you repeatedly engage with us, you will start to have those boundaries eroded. You may

build up some greater resistance but in the end, you will find yourself back in the position that you

were before because your emotional thinking will take over from your utilization of logic. Now, if

you've determined, “I don't want to lose contact with my elderly mother.” Then say, “I will only go

and see her once a month.” And stick to that. Don't speak on the telephone for instance and that

means that you only have those 2 hours say every Sunday, first Sunday of the month where you

engage with that individual and then you don't and when you don't, that will allow the emotional

thinking which is lessen when you had contact with her. So when the guilt comes back, the sense of

obligation, that will drain away and you won't be tempted to break the sequence that you put in

place by seeing her again but people fall prey to thinking, “Well, I can’t do that because that's my

mother.” Just because that person has that title of mother doesn't give them, does not create an

obligation for you to keep engaging with someone who's been abusive towards you. They don't

deserve that title and so I explain to people even when they're think the situation to contact I hear

repeatedly, “I can't go no contact because I can't afford to or I have nowhere to live.” If you want to

get away from that person who is abusing you, you'd live in a tent even if it was for a fortnight in

order to get away. Now, I appreciate that somebody will say, “Practical children.” What you've got to

do is you've got to aim for that total situation of no-contact and then think, “Are there any

legitimate exceptions that I that exist?” so for example: if a court is ordered that you have to co-

parent with a narcissist; that is religious exception because if you don't do which, you may well go to

prison or be fined. So you then look at ways that you have to have some engagement with that

individual which breaches your no contact but there are various things you can do to disengage

gatekeepers, the breach in communication to ameliorate the influence of the narcissist. A legitimate

exemption might be that you work with the narcissist and you're looking for a new job so you'll have

to continue to engage with them say for your 3 months’ notice period but a legitimate exemption is

not saying something along the lines of, “Well, I feel bad if I don't talk to him anymore or well, I feel

that I should go around and check that she's doing okay.” That's just your emotional thinking guilting

you into continuing the engagement. You've got to aim high and realize that for some people, no

contact is easy-ish. There's no children involved. There’s no financial entanglements. They can walk

away and maybe move somewhere else. When other people, there's a lot to disentangle from but

similarly with a family member although it's hard because you have that cultural influence that

suggests that you should respect your parents, that you should be there to support them as they

become older or if the child is a narcissist and you’re a parent that you are the parent, you should be

supporting them. Well no because if that individual is a toxic influence in your life and is abusive

then they forfeit the right to have that title and that connection and you hard as it may seem, the

only way you're going to succeed and be forward is to guilty the relationship and realize, “That isn’t

mother. That's a narcissist. That's not sister. That's a narcissist. That's not colleague. That's a

narcissist.”

Bree: I agree. I definitely agree, and I know I hear survivors a lot of the time say that because they

have that awareness - they feel like they've learned a lot of tools. They've learned a lot about

narcissistic personality disorder and all the manipulation tactics, that they can somehow stay in the

relationship and sort of manage it—manage to not become affected by the abuse. Can you talk

about that and can you talk about how it doesn't seem to matter how wonderful and sweet and

giving and you are or even if you take the higher road and try to be more assertive and assert your

boundaries, it just it doesn't seem to matter what you do—the narcissist will always continue to

abuse you? It doesn't seem to have any effect on their behavior.

HG: Absolutely. People do think that they may be able to manage the relationship. First of all, you've

got to ask yourself why you contemplating doing that because immediately you're offending that

first golden rule because you're looking to continue to engage. So you must stop yourself and think,

“What is making me feel that I have to do that because what I should be doing is walk away?” so

that's the first thing you should consider but let's go further. You think that you might be able to

manage it as you rightly pointed out people will increase their understanding and read all about

narcissist personalities sort of thing. Yeah. There are some tools there that I think I could utilize so

that I can manage this relationship. Well, you can't and the reason for it is this: you might be able to

bring some influence to bear on us but because of our huge need for control of our environment and

that includes the people within it …this means that you can never ever guarantee getting us to do

something. We have to be the controllers and we regard the other people and the dynamic as the

controlled. You don't tell us what to do. You don't make the decisions for us. We are the ones that

have to control and therefore if you try and manage the relationship in some way… because of our

different perspective, we see that as you trying to control us. From your perspective, it may not look

like it at all. It may look like that you're trying to be reasonable but we have a different perspective

and where we perceive that you are trying to control us, that means we will fight against that

because we have to be the ones that are in control. If we think you are trying to control us, that

makes us feel that we are losing, that we are becoming weaker and it takes us to a place that we do

not want to go and therefore we must fight against it. So you can't manage it because of our

inherent desire to always be the one that’s in control and it's not enough for you to turn around and

say, “Well, okay. I'll become completely so fine in this relationship and I will always say yes. I will

make myself as attractive as possible across every conceivable way. I will always be compliant.” You

can't because your mind doesn’t work like our mind and what you think is you being compliant may

well be viewed by us because of our altered perspective as you doing something that is non-

compliant. It appears that twisted from your perspective but it makes perfect sense from ours. So

you can't lay yourself open and think, “I'll be completely compliant.” And that will work because

alongside that is if you have been painted black as a consequence of our split thinking, no matter

what you do you still remain painted black. So you could have made as a glorious meal, bring us the

finest wines known to humanity, give us a back rub and all sort but you're painted black. We

motivate you, why? Because we need to control you. So, stop touching me. What you doing for my

shoulder hurts. It's a lie but the narcissist’s self-defense system will say that in order to upset that

person to self-control over them because they viewed black. Just because you do nice things for us

does not automatically cause you to be viewed as white and the reason for that is the third part of

this reason why you could never guarantee an outcome with us and that's because you don't know

what else is going on in our fuel matrix. The Fuel Matrix are all of those appliances, all of those

people who are in the matrix. You will not know about them all. So, it might be for instance, you are

the narcissist wife; you don't realize that the narcissist’s having an affair. You're actually in

devaluation but you don't realize because the narcissists is generally okay with you and you think

that you're doing lots of lovely things for us but your being outshine and outgunned by somebody

you don't know about in our fuel matrix but the person we're having an affair with, they are viewed

as white; you are viewed as black. So no matter what you do, we're always going to us our view of it

and that perversely of course once your white, you offer us that back rub and we will then say to

you, “What a glorious back rub that is. You give the best back rubs that we've known.” And you're

left thinking, “Well, last week said they were awful and I was hurting your shoulder.” And that's

where the gas lighting occurs because our instinctive response based upon our need in that moment

because we are creatures of expedience results in us, “On Monday, you are white and tell you the

dress that you're wearing is beautiful and you look really good in it. Then Wednesday you put the

same dress and we say that you look as if you belong on the sidewalk touting for business.” Then

you think, “Why? What's changed in 3 days? Well, you were white and now you're black and you

might be black because you didn't ring us back that afternoon because that feels like you’re rejecting

our control and because you cannot second guess us because you don't know what else is going on

of our fuel matrix because of our over needing, overriding need for control and this black and white

thinking. You cannot guarantee an outcome with us. It's impossible.

Bree: Do you… well, I should say… Do, you know, narcissists—Do they realize they have this black

and white thinking? I mean, that seems, it's kind of like…

HG: No. The majority do not. As I've explained last year, the way that I categorize into lesser range

and greater. So greater has an awareness of what we are so we recognize this thinking but it's still

instinctive but we play on it. So, we recognize that we see somebody in a black light but it doesn't

matter because we still feel a need to treat them that way but the vast majority of narcissist form

with a lesser midrange which means they don't know what they are. They have no insight and they

do not recognize the black and white thinking because there narcissism, it's such a self defense

mechanism that it will twist and turn and be hypocritical, inconsistent, contrarian but it doesn't

matter. To you, it seems extraordinary. How can that thinking go black and white—black and white

quite so quickly. To us, we don't see it, why? Because the narcissism blinds the narcissist to it. So,

you might think, “Surely, he remembers saying on Monday the dress looks really nice.” But what

happens is when you say that to the narcissist, “Why are you now saying that I look like a whore in

this dress when on Mondays I look beautiful?” The narcissist perceives that incautiously as an attack

which means it has to be suppressed and therefore the narcissist uses a defense mechanism, wipes

Monday from the record. It rewrites history. So that's why the narcissist will go, “I didn’t say that on

Monday.” And there, the gaslighting starts and you go, “Yes, you did.” That is you challenging us

again so the narcissism in order to defend the narcissist goes, “We're being attacked here. She's

challenging these versions of events.” So, first line of defense, deny it. So again, the narcissist will,

“No, I didn’t.” now, the narcissist does not say it in a hollow doubt volcano going, “How can I mess

up this person's life this week?” It's instinctive but to you, you cannot believe that somebody and

often somebody who's intelligent is behaving in this manner because the other person is thinking,

“Surely, he knows what he said on Monday. He's deliberately forgetting it in order to mess with my

head.” That’s when mid-range, it’s instinctive. They are caused not to recall what happened on

Monday and then what happens is because we have this first line of defense which is deny… we

always deny but if sometimes you can break through that and we have to fall back to the second line

of defense which is essentially distract and deflect. So, let's take for example what I've been

speaking about with the dresses. Monday we say, it's beautiful. Wednesday we say is awful. You

remind us of what we said on Monday therefore you are telling us that we're wrong about our recall.

You are challenging us we're losing control from our perspective. We cannot allow that to happen

therefore we deny what happened on Monday. You assert that it did happen, again we deny it but

you happen to have recorded this conversation because you're getting wise to what we're doing and

you thought, “Well, I think I'm losing my mind here.” So, you quote it and you show us the phone

footage of us saying, “On Monday, the dress is beautiful.” For a peak of second, if there was a little

man set in a narcissist said, “You would go damn broken through the denial with that piece of

evidence.” We're going to fall back to the second line of defense and that's distraction deflect. I use

any of the manipulation and so as a self-defense mechanism, the narcissist would not necessarily go,

“Oh! Yes. You're right. I'd forgotten about that.” Sometimes that might happen if in that moment,

that's the appropriate response but what is more likely to happen is this. “What you think you are

doing recording me? I'm sick if you try to control me. Who do you think you are?” immediately

deflecting or, “You’re always trying to control me, aren't you? You're the one that's controlling this

relationship.” So there's the blame shifting and you’re going, “What you're talking about? You’re all

the controlling one.” And what do we hear then? You're attacking us. So we deny it and you

essentially have like tabs on your computer when you've been looking at lots of different websites,

all of these strands of arguments and challenge are still open and then the narcissist is denying some

deflecting with others. I’m using all of the various manipulations that listeners will be familiar with in

terms of projection, verbal aggression, word salad, triangulation because it's all done to ensure that

we remain in control. The way that we operate is like the special in a vehicle like the computer

makes thousands of calculations in a second so the ride remains smooth. Essentially, narcissism

operates in that one way of second by second twisting and adjusting to make sure we have our

control and you are not challenging us in anyway because of our fear of being usurped and feeling

powerless. So, it has to shift and it doesn't matter if what we say now is contradicting to what we

said 5 minutes ago because that's the past and it will be rewritten by the narcissism and that’s what

you’re up against and that's why when you're trying to convince us of what we said, you're not going

to get anywhere not because the narcissist stops there and thinks, “Right. Yeah. She’s got me. So I

better tell some lies.” It's instinctive, that's why I said with such conviction. That's why the reaction

that you receive is so fierce at times because the narcissism causes the narcissist to respond in that

way. It's genuine belief. The lies that are being told are all truth because our perspective, it's the

truth and people do struggle to think, “Well, how can you not see it? Was because we have a

different perspective? I often say to people, we can both point to the color and say, “That's red.” But

from my perspective, my version of red might be your version of yellow but you don't know that but

it's different perspective and that's what people deal with. So, it's pointless because you’re just go

round and round in circles and you get upset so you start giving us fuel so we provoke you a little

because you're giving us our lifeblood and we will keep going at this until we are satisfied that all

superiority is being asserted. So in the end, you go forget about it at all. “I don't want to go out

anymore. Yes. Yes. I accept that you didn't say that on Monday. Thank you very much.” You've

backed down. You’ve given me fuel. My superiority’s asserted. Right, we could go from our meal

now and then we behave as if nothing has happened and then you see that. “Hang on a second. We

just had a huge round. He's behaving as nothing has happened.” Why? Because we got what we

want but you didn't realize that was what was happening.

Athena: I have a question for you, HG. Everything that you just described obviously uh, it's very

familiar. I'm sure everyone listening right now can apply everything you've just shared to an

interaction that they've had with either someone in their family or their spouse or ex-spouse or

someone in their life that happens to be the pathological individual. I hear very often, HG, the

response, or in the support groups that we run… one of the most common sentences written or

common phrases spoken is, “I can't believe they behaved in this way. I would never behave in the

way that they behaved. I can't believe that they're okay and they act like nothing's ever happened.

How can they act that way? I would never act that way. If I acted that way, I would feel so

ashamed.” So, could you comment on the topic of shame? Do narcissists feel shame, and if so, could

you describe what it feels like?

HG: There is shame because that is a driver. It's not embarrassment; that's superficial but there is

that deep seated shame but I have learned and understood with interaction, with the good doctors

as I describe them that there the shame that is felt is embodied essentially in the fury that is ignited

by being wounded. Whenever you have an interaction with us, it's essentially going to be one of 3

types. You either provide as with fuel which is saying, “I love you.” So, that's a nice dollop of positive

fuel or you provide challenge fuel which is something people don't necessarily know about and they

may think, “Oh! I just want to strip off the narcissist because he went berserk. I really got to him.”

No, what you did was your anger when you insulted us gave us fuel. We wanted some more but your

insults meant that we didn't feel superior. So, we had to assert our superiority again. We had to put

down the rebellion. Reject your challenge and so we argued back with you when you thought, “Well,

that's because you've really got under our skin.” No, that was a manipulative response designed to

put down your challenge and gain more fuel and then the third interactions where you wound us

and that is where you do something without emotion, without fuel. So, a very simple one is you

ignore us. Now, when you ignore us, you are telling us that we are unimportant, that we do not

matter. You probably don't realize that you've done it and often it's unintentional but again, it's

these different perspectives. When there is that moment of being ignored by somebody, that is an

unconscious level reminds us of the behavior that we experienced when we felt weak and powerless

and in a position to do nothing about it and we do not like that and we do not recognize in the

instant that that's where it's coming from but again I've learned through the work that I've done that

that's the secret of it and then that is the shame of being reminded of being weak. The shame of

being reminded of being impotent in dealing with the situation and therefore the reaction to that is

the recognition of all fury either cold fury, silent treatment, cold shouldering, glaring or heated fury,

smashing a house of verbal abusing you, physically assaulting you because that's the reaction to the

shame because the shame is so deep seated and powerful. We don't actually feel ashamed in the

sense of sitting there and feeling, “I'm an awful person.” Because there is an immediate need to

dispel it. We can't deal with it. Somebody who is not one of us may well go, “I feel ashamed about

my behavior.” And they reflect on it and I may need to do something about it and I've brought

shame on my house and my head, etc. and they deal with it in a constructive way. We don't

recognize that as such because it's so deep seated but that's what's behind it and we have to expel it

as quickly as possible with all fury and so the wounding is linked to the deep-seated shame that we

have. When you wound us, you basically job our shame and it's so damaging to us that the other

way to respond is with this fury to fight back in some way to then cause you to either cry or say,

“Don't hurt me.” or begged to be left alone or say, “It's okay. It's okay.” And say nice things to us.

You give us that fuel and therefore we start to feel important again and that's what's behind it.

Athena: The most common response that I see people have to the narcissistic rage or fury as you call

it is apology. They respond immediately with compassion and they feel terrible that they have

harmed you because they think that you're feeling “actual human feelings” the way that they feel

actual human feelings - which is remorse.

HG: That’s very valid, yeah.

Athena: Yeah. What does it do when they respond with compassion and apology and they just want

to make it better? What does that do to you?

HG: Again, if you're responding in a compassionate fashion by saying, “I'm really sorry. I upset you.”

You're providing us with fuel. Now of course, it might not be sufficient in itself to quell the wound, to

heal the wound that you cause… you may have wounded us massively. So, we might respond by say,

“You don't care about me. You only care about yourself.” projection so that you then forced to give

us more fuel by going, “Look. I really, really do. I'm really sorry. I didn't realize that I ignored you. I

will be more mindful of it in the future. You know that I love you and I would never do anything

consciously to hurt you.” And the longer this person talks to us with those words—the tone of those

words, look at their face, look in their eyes, body language or that contributes to provide us with a

huge amount of fuel and if that person is what I call the intimate partner primary source (wife,

girlfriend, boyfriend) that potency is very high because they’re romantic link and therefore when you

start to show that compassion, you're giving us some fuel and if it's a minor wounding, that

compassion may deal with that wound and then the response is the fury is abated and then we carry

on as normal. If it's not sufficient, we will provoke and manipulate you to get more fuel out of you

until essentially, you've poured enough water if you like on the fire so that it goes out but

apologizing to us is a form of fuel. Showing compassion is a form of fuel.

Bree: You know, a lot of survivors—they feel that the wounding that you're talking about or that

deep-seated shame often comes from some trauma in childhood and that they’ve either hurt the

narcissists talk about or they've read that narcissists. This is why this happens and they feel like they

can just… you know, if they just do show that compassion or they show enough love or that they can

heal the narcissists. Can you talk about that or speak about that?

HG: Certainly. And again, that's an empathic trait that those entangled with us have the desire to fix

the desire to heal. That's part of the reason why we instinctively pick you. You want to try to make

things better because you're honest and decent and kind but all that does is take you down that

road to remaining entangled with us. So, once you realize that the person you're with erupts in such

a furious fashion at matters which seem entirely trivial and you work out what you're dealing with,

your desire to try and heal that person is making you engage. Once again, you’re disobeying that

golden rule. You're engaging with us. It won't work because you might abate the fury but you are

dealing with a condition that is weighted into our very DNA in order to protect us and you are not

going to be able to hug it out so to speak. It is in and around us as a self-defense mechanism and

what that means is that when that self-defense mechanism perceives that there is something

coming along which is trying to disable it, it will reject it and this goes back to the point why so many

of our kind will go nowhere near any kind of therapy leaving aside with that therapy work won't go

anywhere near it, why? Because the narcissism detects it essentially. Somebody is trying to disable

me so we say no. I make excuses or with the mid-range narcissist or greater, they'll get into that

therapy and utilize it in a way to turn it against the person that sensed that. Oh! I went to and did 10

weeks of therapy. I found it very useful and I talked all about the issues in our relationship and you

know what? The therapist told me that you are the problem and I've worked on my issues and you

also need to do it and I went and did it. Now, you're the one; you need to sort yourself out and when

that’s said to somebody who can't tell left from right because we're in the maelstrom, it causes

them to really think that they are the problem. Now, the narcissist probably is lying about what's

going on into therapy because if it's confidential, the other person is going to find out. Sometimes of

course it's known that we will manipulate those people so that they do think that the other person is

a problem or that there isn't any real issue with us because again what does the narcissism do? It

detects by going to therapy. This is an attempt to try and dismantle our self-defense mechanism. It

cannot happen therefore, we will manipulate the situation in whatever ways suits us to ensure that

we remain in control. So, anybody that thinks that they can somehow heal us by loving and loving

and loving, you're going to fail. And 2 reasons behind that: the first is when you give us this love and

compassion. It's positive fuel but after time we get bored of it, it becomes stale and that's why we

start devaluing you. So, even when you start heaping it on us, you certainly have a huge black and

going back to what I said earlier on. No matter that you have this best intention; it's just not good

enough because you're painted black. So, all of your love and compassion, we don't want to know.

It's not going to work because the narcissism is rejecting it because you're painted black and then

the other point is even if you remained painted white and we accepted all of this love and

compassion, it is not enough in itself to deal with this deeply rooted condition which has been

designed if you will to always ensure that it is present and cannot be dismantled. So, not to… sorry, I

cut across you. So consequently where you think and again your emotional thinking will cause you

because of your empathic traits, “This person is damaged. The narcissist is damaged. I feel pity for

them. I feel sorry that they are in this situation and I want to be able to help them.” Those are all

understandable sentiments but they're not going to help you because it just sucks you back in and

you'll end up getting on the merry-go-round trying to change something which cannot be changed.

Yes, you get periods of time where things will be better. You know why that is? Not because of what

you're doing because it suits us to do that because again we have to remain in control. So we give

you 2 months where everything's pleasant. We take you back to that golden period and then it starts

again and you're left thinking, “Oh! I thought I'd made some gains there with the love and

compassion. I thought we were getting somewhere.” And so, you try again but this time it doesn't

work but you tried again. Why? Because you were conned into thinking it was working the first time.

It won't work. So, look for your own defenses and get out. Fight that urge however strong it is and I

hear people say many times as you've mentioned—they want to help because they are good and

honest and decent people. It won't work. Forget about it.

Athena: My clients think that they are the exception to the rule; almost every single one of them.

They think that they … you know, “I know what you say Athena. I know what you say that there is no

way that this will work but I'm telling you that I will find a way. There's never been anyone on the

planet that has the tenacity and the resilience that I have. If there is a way, I will find the way. I'm

the exception.”

HG: That’s a very good point and again what you see there is the manifestation of the emotional

thinking. Emotional thinking does not care about the survivor or the person is entangled. It doesn't

care about their mental health, their physical health, their sexual health or financial health. All it

wants you to do is engage with us to feed that inherent addiction that you have to kind and it calms

you and it gets hold and says, “You are the most resilient. You are the one that stuck the greatest

perseverance. You will succeed.” And it calms you into trying and so what you do, you engage with

us. So that inherent addiction is fed because you're back with us in the relationship and you're trying

and you're trying and emotional thinking surges again and you've lost your insights. Logic is being

pushed out of the way. I keep saying, just keep trying. You've done a month. Maybe, it'll be a

breakthrough after a week or that is a little improvement on our behavior. Nothing to do with you.

It's because our expedience decrees that we should behave that way. Your emotional thinking goes,

“Look! You're making progress. Keep at it.” And then when it doesn't work, “Well, don't be.” It tells

you, “Don't! Don't! Don't! Don't worry! You're the one that can solve this. You can sort this out.” All

of this contravenes, that's very simple rule. Once you know what you're dealing with, you go and you

stay out because you're emotional thinking wants you to find the truth out. It wants you to make

you heal. It makes you to want to try to get revenge against us. Any of your thinking which keeps

telling you talk, engage, speak about, do things with, be with a narcissist is against your best

interests and you've got to learn to reject that thought.

Bree: When survivors are out of the relationship, one thing that I hear a lot is that they feel like the

narcissist’s one like nothing affects the narcissist, right? They just move on to the next relationship

without skipping a beat. It seems like nothing affects them and there's no way to win against a

narcissist. So, I guess I have a 2-part question.

HG: Okay.

Bree: I want you to talk about that but also, I'm curious. Do you think that narcissists and

psychopaths have an advantage? And for the ones that have more insight into themselves, if they

could like wake up in the morning and not be in a narcissists or psychopath, do you think that they

would take that opportunity?

HG: Well, let me answer the second one. I get off that question by my readers, if you could stop

being what you are, would you? I always go, “Well, what's the cost for doing so?” And if they were

to say, “There is no cost.” And I would say, “Well, why would I want to give up something that I'm

very successful at—something that works for me?” and they say, “Well, wouldn’t it be nice to stop

being horrible to people, upsetting people, being abusive towards them?” and I go, “Well, I don’t

care, do I?” I don't have any remorse. I don't have a conscience so it doesn't trouble me the way that

it troubles you but wanting to be nice would be better if you could deal with people in a way where I

did happen and again I say, “It doesn't matter. I get what I want.” Yes, if there is a way that it can be

achieved so it's win-win and I dim that's acceptable and isn’t a longer route to what I want than a

more direct route of perhaps being awful to somebody. Fine then let's do that and what is also the

case that do have more insights. Those that have more insights determines as greatest. We do it

because we enjoy owning people. We enjoy manipulating people. It's a game and I know people

think, “Well, that's an awful way to be.” And I've heard it said to me many times. Yes, from your

perspective it is but it how it works. It works for us to protect ourselves and that that is how we

operate. And of course, lesser mid-range would never have that option because they don't know

what they are. If you were to say to them, “Would you not like to be able to not be a narcissist

anymore?” They’ll go, “Well, I’m not one anyway. You’re the narcissist.” They’d immediately throw

you back which a greater would reject it because essentially there is this concern that, “First of all,

what's the cost for me changing those ways? Will I be less of what I am now? Would it cause me

some difficulty? Will I be less effective? Will I cease to exist?” because that's what's behind much of

this. It's I don't fear things. I've been in certain situations that when people be frightened, it doesn't

frighten me. There's only one thing that ever concerns me-not ceasing to exist. I don't mean die. I’m

not scared of death but it's that sense of big obliterated, being consigned into oblivion. No longer

being the very thing that functions and operates in this way and that's behind much of what drives

the narcissist behavior. Other types they do fear. They're frightened of being hurt. They're

frightened of being left penniless. They're frightened of a situation where they may see physical

violence but for all of us, the ultimate fear is the essentially the fear of nothing of no longer existing

and with much of a kind, that's unconscious but it drives those behaviors that hunt for fuel because

fuel means that we do exist with validated that we're important. Now, going to the point about the

feeling that we always win. So, need to see that way; we strode off into the sunset with nary a

glance over our shoulder and in many respects, we do because we are better equipped. We

compartmentalize. You'll get to tell you about tomorrow goodbye and we're able to do that because

we have no conscience. We have no remorse. We attach you to us. We do not attach to you. We

don't know how to form attachments to you and so we can walk away. We don't have that problem

of thinking yes. Certain narcissists recognize your hurt by what we've done but it's not our fault

because the narcissism tells us it's not. We will always reject that. So, we have evolved if you will in a

way which means that we can walk away, that we are coated with Teflon, that nothing seems to

stick but what people have to remember is this. It's all about defining what you mean by win

because for people who have sneered at us the way you win is you never try to win on our terms

because you will always lose. You win this battle by not fighting the battle and that means going

back to that principle once again; get out and you stay out and if you do that, you have won because

you have denied us the provision of fuel. You have denied us the opportunity to play those games

with you and that is your win and that's what you people should always aim for. Yes, we might have

to win because we've gone off with somebody else and we seem really happy. Yes, we may have to

win because we've got rid of that job and gone into another and stiff into people but the

organization. We've left somebody with crippling debt. So, it does feel like we would in that respect

but what you've got to decide fashion your own win and you don't try and get us back. You don't try

to make our life a misery for all reasons that I've explained earlier on. All you are doing is playing our

game and no matter how much you think your tormentor goes, your reactions will be given as fuel.

So, we're winning because that's what we want from you. We want you to continue to engage with

us. It might look like we hate what you're doing to us but that's just part of provoking you and

manipulating you further to keep doing it. If you think that your landing blows against the narcissist

and he's getting all worked up and shouty or sulky, crying about it with certain midrange narcissists,

your emotional thinking will say to you, “Do it again.” And you will, why? Not because you’re a

vindictive but because your emotional thinking is keeping you engaging with us and this time, it's

calling you into thinking that you're beating us up metaphorically but you're not. You've come back

in and you've engaged in our arena and you're playing our game. So, you have to stay away from us.

You secure and define your own win and that's by not engaging with us. So yes, it does seem that we

win on many fronts but that's because of the way that we are created, or you've got to remember as

we have no concept of happiness whereas you do. That doesn’t concern me. One doesn’t miss what

once never had. However, what we have is that nagging emptiness. Now for me, that's not such an

issue because I'm so efficient at gaining fuel but that it's very rare that makes it really makes itself

presence felt for me sometimes a slightly unsettled experience. So I need more fuel but for those

narcissists in the lower echelon lesser and the lower mid-range for instance, who struggle with a few

major cities because their lives are half hazard. That fuel level drops, they feel like their worlds

crushing in. They feel that cold hand of oblivion on their shoulder. At all though, you might look at

that face on the Facebook pictures of him with that new lady and you see that rictus grin staring at

you. Behind that, he has that emptiness he's fighting each and every day, you don't have that. So,

what you've got to keep in mind is that's what he's fighting against each and every day and for the

majority of the narcissist as I say, that there were actual, that struggle is very real for them. And in

those circumstances, if you are not contributing fuel to them, what are you doing? You are

perpetuating that emptiness for them, so who is one then? As I say, you've got to look at a different

perspective to secure your weight in a different way.

Bree: I wanted to ask you because you were talking about how you don't really struggle so much

with the emptiness because you're so good at getting fuel.

HG: Yeah.

Bree: What about as narcissists “age” and they lose their looks and maybe they lose some of their

charm and it's more difficult for them to get that fuel? What do you see as sort of the outcome for

most narcissists as they age?

HG: Lose looks lose charm. What does that happen? I moisturize every day. No, gain you thought to

look at which school are you dealing with? So, where you have your gray hair, who is in a position to

have lived a good lifestyle and therefore has taken care. So you have let's say for example, the

creation of the Silver Fox. That job, he remains to be distinguished. He’s still good looking. He's

looked after himself. He also has power, money, influence which draw people to him. So the fuel

network if you’re made to see remains pretty in tacked. So certain narcissists vary greater. I don't

have that issue. Charm does remain. I'm sure you can think of elderly women and elderly gentleman

who are still charming with their snowy hair and all the rest of it. They still have that magnetism. So

for some, aging is not an issue. However, for others it very much is. You might have for example a

less somatic. This fellow perhaps once upon a time was quite good looking but is self-delusion tells

him he remains so and he is the chap that's in his mid-50’s with a porch and his balding head who

still runs around the bars chasing young girls because he still thinks (self-delusion) he's attractive and

he's rejected by them and that ignites he's fury and that fury means that he’s fuel reserved dropped

lower and that emptiness comes and his lifestyle of drinking and taking drugs and not eating

properly because his life was half haphazard starts to take its toll and therefore in those situations as

he gets older and he lashes out at people and he think, “I put up with 10 years of this douche bag.

I'm not going to do it anymore.” People fall away from that fuel matrix but then they can't be

replaced because he doesn't have the looks that he once had. He's got not any money anymore or

he never had any really to begin with and just relied on the looks and he's now is this unpleasant

looking creature that wears the stained shirt because there's nobody to clean it for him anymore

because his wife partner decides to go because he never did the laundry, did he? A little by little

when you're dealing say with a less somatic, that's an individual who thinks cities this stability and

still thinks he can do so his fuel matrix starts to shrink and as that happens he will then enter a spiral

of withdrawal so if neglect gets worse and could well that essentially break down and be left in a

situation of being a hermit at home possibly in some instances even contemplate taking his life

which is quite rare for many narcissists because of the inherent desire to always be here. But that

could happen or he's there because the lifestyle that he's led still getting around as a bar fly trying to

hoover in somebody because there's always going to be somebody he might find. Even though it's

harder and that means more nights out and he carries on the drinking, he carries on the taking of

the drugs so that his body gets worse and there he is lying in a rain-soaked alleyway, having a

clencher, say hello and wave goodbye as the up of his departure as he shuffles off this mortal coil. So

it very much depends on the type of school you're dealing with. Someone else's age with grace,

power and influence and aging is not a problem. People say you'll be sad if you don't know that just

won't happen because there will always be people. I know, for example, one of the people that I do

consultations with engages the individual. He's ugly, he's a billionaire and he has a rotor of people

but it's basically this rocket that are on his payroll that are companions in terms of stimulation

intellectually, sexual provided with fuel and he could pick and choose and he's got this coterie of

ladies and he's in his late seventy's. So, he has no problem with fuel but as I say other schools will do

so and they will be the person who's family if now has decided we're not going to go and see dad

anymore because every time we go he's increasingly cranky. Why? Because he feels ignored so he

lashes out and eventually people think even though he's my dad, will only go once a month or

stopped altogether and there is that downward spiral. So it does very. Not all offices are going to

end up like this so when people say “It's valedictory. Defiance of, well, you will reap what you sow

serves if you be lonely don't run every day”. The situation is there are always plenty of people that

can still be found, you don't know what they're dealing with and with more evolved narcissists. there

will not be an issue that there for others, it's a very real issue. And the ageing narcissist is one, that

will come though and end up in a real mess.

Bree: I think, and we have seen that as well, when or where people have aged, their narcissist and

they have no problem. I don't think survivors should hold on to that sort of karma or satisfaction

because I definitely agree, I’ve seen them as well.

HG: Exactly. When people throw that karmic idea at you but I would say there's no such thing and

even if you do believe, it is as I understand the way it is defined, it's what you did in your past life. So

if you've ended up in a situation where you're being given a horrible time by a narcissist, what does

that mean that you've done in your past life? Think about that. You're better off. Don't believe in

such concepts but believe in doing something where you can see some control. Don't rely on some

mystical idea that will get all comeuppance. Perhaps, we will probably want. You don't need to be

around to know it. Concentrate on your own defenses, make your imagery.

Athena: Well, I love this conversation. It’s just, I'm sure that there are so many people listening that

are just, they're finally maybe getting that resolve that they've needed. Perhaps, take your advice.

You were mentioning a few moments ago HG, talking about, “well perhaps, we won't go see dad

anymore because he's getting grumpy as he gets older.” And you were referring in that scenario to

the dad being perhaps a lesser, definitely not a greater. What would you say to those empathic

people or those out there who do have the narcissistic parents and they've decided that they're

going to “play the game”? They're going to “game” the narcissist, like “if they can't provide me with

any type of emotional support or anything that feels like love, at least they have money. So, I'll just

continue to stay in their life and continue to get money from them.” Don't you feel, I mean I feel as a

practitioner, that is a dangerous dance to do, but what would you say to those out there that may be

thinking those things – or are walking that line?

HG: It's understandable feeling that this individual is not giving you the support that you should have

had. They not been apparent to you and therefore you are thinking well, “Why don't you try to

extract some value from it?” so understandable. But again, that's your emotional thinking. Continue,

what's it doing? It's making you engage with us again. Try to stay in the game and you think “Well,

I'm going to win because I'm going to get money out of them”. What you might do what cost you,

still be manipulated by the narcissist. You'll be made to work for that money. Don't fall into that

trap. You might think well, it's least I deserve. You be better off waiting until that pops is clogs get

something out of the will and if you don't include for you in the will that challenge it through a court.

If you're a dependent, you get something. Don't go back into the arena you can't win and I know

people who say “That's just you”, big grandiose about it. It's not, because you're trying to engage in

a game that you're not equipped to play because we are equipped differently from you. You're

trying to play the game where there are rules that will change that when if we want. Make your own

rules, don't play the game. That's how you win, so don't bother trying to get that money. As I say,

anything that tells you to continue some kind of engagement with us, be it to get that money, be it

to tell us. What an awful individual we are and I think that say's that you want to try to heal to help

us, it's making you engage and that's your emotional thinking, calling you into continuing the dance

with us. Reject it.

Athena: Thank you so much for just for sharing your wisdom.

HG: You’re very welcome.

Athena: I do hope that the listeners will hear the advice that you've given them, over and over and

over again during this interview which is detach, go no contact, don't play the game, the only way to

win is to not play the game. Sadly there will be those who do not heed your advice and they will of

course continue in the relationship with the narcissist in their life. But regardless of the outcome and

you've shared quite a bit of your wisdom and just you've brought a lot of value to this interview

today and I just want to thank you on behalf of Bree and myself and our entire community and those

who will be listening to these interviews this year and perhaps for years or decades to come. Just

thank you for taking the time to use your powers for good.

HG: You're very welcome and thank you for inviting me to participate. I very much enjoyed talking to

you.

Bree: Oh, thank you HG. And before we finish, can you share a little bit about how listeners can find

you and your book—or “books”, I should say, a lot of them.

HG: I do certainly. If you want to know more about the way that my kind think and operate so that

you can apply what I've been explaining. You can find my blog which is narcsite which is

narcsite.com. I’m also in Facebook if you look for me in the Narcissist and YouTube as well if you

fancy hearing my tones and you decide whether I sound like Hugh Grant the British that’s what I call

or search something regards the narcissist, search YouTube. Just search into my name, HG Tudor and

you’ll find something there which will both assist you, enlighten you, but most of all ensure that

through understanding, you’ll get on the path to freedom.

Athena: This is Athena Moberg. On behalf of Bree Bonchay and myself, thank you for your

participation in the 2018 survivor empowerment telesummit, brought to you by World Narcissistic

Abuse Awareness Day and sponsored by CPTSDfoundation.org. It is our joint mission to raise

awareness about the damaging after effects of narcissistic abuse and bring you, the listener, the

most comprehensive, informative and empowering information from the world's leading industry

experts. Bree and I are so glad you have chosen to join us and hope you have been encouraged by

the messages of healing and practical advice for your recovery journey. If someone you know is

living with the invisible wounds of narcissistic abuse, our deepest desire is that you would

confidently refer them to WNAAD.com and CPTSDfoundation.org. That’s WNAAD.com and

CPTSDfoundation.org.

Go show your support for survivors around the world by sharing these two websites:

WNAAD.com and CPTSDfoundation.org