BRIGHAM YOUNG UNIVERSITY - HAWAII CAMPUS Behavioral and Social Sciences Division

Laie, Hawaii 96762

ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM

NARRATOR: Ben N1 hi p a l l , J r .

INTERVIEW N O . : OH-278

DATE OF INTERVIEW: 20 February 1986

INTERVIEWER: S i l i v a Fafai

SUBJECT: Vietnam War

INTRODUCTION

Because there was much resentment by many United States people about the United States involvement in the Vietnam War, it was understood that the war was perceived as not only an unpopular war, but had become one of a major historical events in the history of the United States; a war that costed the United States not only millions of "wasted" dollars, but thousands and thousands of American lives as well.

The American soldiers were fighting a "foreign" war in a foreign land. And one of those who was called to such a dangerous mission, was veteran Ben Nihipali Jr., a resident of Laie community. Nihipali's assigned duty during the war was mainly on the loading and unloading of both arms and supplies as well as dead people. To Nihipali, the war was a waste of time and money. In fact, he said it was not to be considered a war.

From talking with Nihipali, I have found much interesting information about the "war according to Nihipali". It was a sad, and yet a memorable experience; an experience that according to Nihipali, he could have done something worthwhile elsewhere.

Today, Nihipali recalls and recites his personal involvement in the war as "a waste of time". Nihipali, along with other people I've talked with who were directly involved in the actual fighting, maintained their feelings that it was a frustrating war. The war itself has become a target of much scholastic and historical criticism.

And speaking from the point of view of a frustrated Movements Control Officer, Nihipali referred to the whole war as also a waste of food, armaments, and most of all, "time and money".

Siliva Fafai Student

m

TABLE OF CONTENTS

TAPE TRANSCRIPT

Side A Page 000 1 Introduction; enlistment into military;

description of duties; feelings of going to Vietnam

169 3 Trip to Vietnam; assignment of duties

346 6 Explanation of infantry; post at Camranh Bay

425 8 Extention of service; feelings about service position; employment of Vietmanese; suspicions towards Vietmanese

511 10 END OF SIDE A

Side B

000 11 R e a c t i o n t o m i l i t a r y command; e f f e c t o f war on Vie tnamese p o p u l a t i o n ; s h i p m e n t s o f s u p p l i e s

191 13 Usage o f s u p p l i e s ; U. S. weapons compared t o Communist w e a p o n s ; r e s p o n s i b i l i t y o f i n v e n t o r y ; p e r s o n a l and g e n e r a l o p i n i o n o f war

300 15 " D r a f t d o d g e r s " ; r e l a t i o n o f movies t o a c t u a l war

387 17 END OF INTERVIEW

I V

SIDE A

SF: T h i s i s S i l i v a F a f a i i n t e r v i e w i n g Mr . Ben N i h i p a l i J r . a b o u t h i s e x p e r i e n c e s o n t h e V i e t n a m W a r . T h i s i n t e r v i e w i s c o n d u c t e d o n 2 0 t h F e b r u a r y , 1986 [ i n C a s h C o n t r o l O f f i c e a t P o l y n e s i a n C u l t u r a l C e n t e r ] .

Mr . N i h i p a l i , when d i d y o u f i r s t j o i n t h e m i l i t a r y , and w h a t s e c t i o n o f t h e m i l i t a r y d i d y o u e n r o l l i n ?

BN: I e n l i s t e d i n t h e s e r v i c e i n 1 9 6 7 — 6 6 a c t u a l l y . I s e r v e d a m i s s i o n i n 1 9 6 4 t o 1 9 6 6 , N o v e m b e r . I g o t home December o f 6 6 . I w a s home a p p r o x i m a t e l y t h r e e w e e k s a n d I e n l i s t e d i n t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s Army. My b r o t h e r a n d I w e n t i n t o t h e [ m i l i t a r y ] s e r v i c e t o g e t h e r . Of c o u r s e , i n t h e m i s s i o n f i e l d I d i d n ' t know a n y t h i n g a b o u t V i e t n a m . A l l I knew w a s t h a t t h e r e w e r e m i l i t a r y a d v i s o r s o v e r t h e r e h e l p i n g t h e R e p u b l i c o f SDuth V i e t n a m t r a i n i n g s o l d i e r s . B u t I d i d n ' t h a v e a n y k i n d o f b a c k g r o u n d o f why t h e y w e r e o v e r t h e r e , a c t u a l l y . When I came home I s t i l l d i d n ' t h a v e a n y i d e a a b o u t e v e n t h e p o s s i b i l i t y o f g o i n g t o V i e t n a m . B u t my b r o t h e r a n d I e n l i s t e d i n t h e [ m i l i t a r y ] s e r v i c e ; w e n t t o F o r t Ord C a l i f o r n i a f o r b a s i c t r a i n i n g .

I a l w a y s w a n t e d t o t r a v e l . W e l l , I w a n t e d t o g o t o E u r o p e . For t h e l o c a l s i t w a s l i k e we g e t t o g e t o f f t h i s r o c k . So i t w a s my d e s i r e t o g o a n d v i s i t E u r o p e . I d i d n ' t h a v e a n y m o n e y . And s o t h e m i l i t a r y w a s a b o u t t h e b e s t o p t i o n t h a t we h a d a t t h a t t i m e t o go v i s i t i n g . So a n y w a y , we e n l i s t e d a n d I w a n t e d t o g e t i n v o l v e d i n t h e a i r l i n e s a n d t r a v e l . When we e n l i s t e d , I e n l i s t e d a s a Movement C o n t r o l S p e c i a l i s t ; t h a t w a s my M . O . S . , M i l i t a r y O c c u p a t i o n a l S p e c i a l i s t , t h a t t h e y t r a i n e d y o u f o r . A f t e r F o r t Ord for my b a s i c t r a i n i n g , I w e n t t o F o r t E u s t i s , V i r g i n i a , w h i c h w a s t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s A r m y ' s T r a n s p o r t a t i o n G o r e P o s t . I r e c e i v e d t r a i n i n g w o r k i n g w i t h t h e a i r p l a n e s , r a i l r a o d t r a c k s , e v e r y p h a s e o f t r a n s p o r t a t i o n , i n c l u d i n g m o v i n g o f p e r s o n n e l , ~ l o a d i n g a n d u n l o a d i n g o f s h i p s , a n y t h i n g t h a t h a s t o do w i t h some k i n d o f t r a n s p o r t a t i o n , e i t h e r m o v i n g p e o p l e o r c a r l o a d o r a n y t h i n g ,

SF: W e l l , b e f o r e we g o o n f u r t h e r , B e n , [ i n t e r r u p t i o n ] i t s e e m s l i k e y o u ' v e a n s w e r e d m o s t o f my q u e s t i o n s b u t a s y o u w e r e s a y i n g t h a t y o u d i d n ' t r e a l l y h a v e a g o o d k n o w l e d g e o f w h a t w a s g o i n g o n i n V i e t n a m d u r i n g y o u r m i s s i o n , t h a t i s LDS m i s s i o n , a n d y o u a l s o s a i d t h a t w h a t p r o m p t e d y o u t o g o i n t h e m i l i t a r y w a s t o t r a v e l . Was t h a t a c t u a l l y t r u e o r w a s t h e r e a n y o t h e r m i l i t a r y f o r c e , o r g o v e r n m e n t a l f o r c e o n y o u t h a t a l s o a d d e d t o t h i s i n t e r e s t o f g o i n g t o t h e m i l i t a r y ?

BN: W e l l , t h e m i l i t a r y e x p e r i e n c e w a s — w h e n I w a s g r o w i n g u p i n H a u u l a , I w a s b o r n a n d r a i s e d i n H a u u l a — a n d I g u e s s t h e

m i l i t a r y was a lways t h e r e b e c a u s e I can a l w a y s remember t h e m a r i n e s . They a l w a y s march from Kaneohe Bay, Kaneohe t o Kahuku for t r a i n i n g . And i t w a s — H a w a i i , t h e l o c a l s — m i l i t a r y was someth ing t h a t t h e y ' l l l ook up a s k i n d o f an i d e a l s i t u a t i o n o r an o p p o r t u n i t y t o g e t o f f t h e r o c k .

[ 1 0 0 ] Befo re g o i n g t o t h e m i s s i o n , I a t t e n d e d Church C o l l e g e o f Hawai i for two y e a r s ; p u t on academic p r o b a t i o n a c o u p l e o f t i m e s . I p l a y e d fo r Church C o l l e g e o f Hawai i b a s k e t b a l l team [ f o r ] o n e y e a r . I w a s n ' t do ing t o o good i n s c h o o l . And i t j u s t w a s n ' t my t h i n g a t t h e t i m e . So I went on a m i s s i o n . [When] I g o t r e l e a s e d , I t h o u g h t I ' d come b a c k and go t o s c h o o l b e c a u s e now s u p p o s e d l y t h e m i s s i o n had g i v e n me a good b a s i s fo r c o n t r o l l i n g my t i m e and my p r i o r i t i e s and a l l t h i s . But when I came home, I g u e s s t h e "bug" t o t r a v e l was s t i l l t h e r e . Looking a t my t r a n s c r i p t s when I go t o s c h o o l and an o p t i o n t o go t r a v e l , so I j u s t w e n t . My b r o t h e r and I s i g n e d up and we l e f t .

SF: But d u r i n g t h i s m i l i t a r y t r a i n i n g , I t h i n k , t h e y c a l l i t " b a s i c t r a i n i n g " , fo r four m o n t h s , o r four w e e k s . . ,

BN: W e l l , b a s i c t r a i n i n g i s e i g h t w e e k s , and t h e s e r v i c e i s i n f a n t r y . T h a t ' s why anybody t h a t g o e s i n t o t h e s e v i c e , h i s p r i m a r y r e s p o n s i b i l i t y i s knowing how t o de fend o r k i l l , o r w h a t e v e r you want t o c a l l i t ; t h a t ' s h i s f i r s t o b l i g a t i o n .

SF: So you e n l i s t e d a s an i n f a n t r y ?

BN: No, I e n l i s t e d a s a , I s i g n e d a c o n t r a c t t o b e t r a i n e d a s a Movements C o n t r o l S p e c i a l i s t . Bu t , anybody t h a t g o e s i n t o t h e s e r v i c e w i l l h a v e t o know t h e b a s i c f u n d a m e n t a l s o f h a n d l i n g t h e r i f l e and p l a t o o n t y p e o f movements and s t u f f l i k e t h a t .

SF: Dur ing t h i s c o u r s e o f your b a s i c t r a i n i n g and your j o b t r a i n i n g , were you b r i e f e d o r i n t r o d u c e d i n t o t h e m i l i t a r y , I mean, t o t h e Vietnam War, o r was t h e Vietnam War [ e v e n ] i n e x i s t e n c e d u r i n g t h a t t i m e ?

BN: I t was i n e x i s t e n c e . Those t h a t were t r a i n i n g , a s i n b a s i c t r a i n i n g , were a l l Vie tnam v e t e r a n s . They b r o u g h t i t t o o u r a t t e n t i o n t h a t t h e p o s s i b i l i t e s o f u s g o i n g o v e r t h e r e was o n e - h u n d r e d p e r c e n t s u r e t y p e o f t h i n g . The p o s s i b i l i t y o f go ing o v e r t h e r e was good ; t h a t you were g o i n g o v e r t h e r e t o V ie tnam, e s p e c i a l l y f o r g u y s t h a t e n l i s t e d . I e n l i s t e d f o r t h r e e y e a r s . So my p o s s s i b i l t y o f g o i n g o v e r t h e r e was v e r y good ,

SF: Were you l o o k i n g fo rward t o g o i n g t o Vie tnam?

BN: No, I w a s n ' t l o o k i n g fo rwa rd t o g o i n g t o V ie tnam. I t was a t t h a t t i m e t h a t , you know, I became aware o f Vie tnam, and how s e r i o u s t h e p r o b l e m was o v e r t h e r e . My b r o t h e r and I were s e r v i n g a t t h e same u n i t i n b a s i c t r a i n i n g and we s t a r t e d t o

t a l k t h a t "Gee, maybe we made t h e wrong c h o i c e " . Bu t , we made t h e c h o i c e ; we were t h e r e a l r e a d y . During b a s i c t r a i n i n g a l l t h e i n f o r m a t i o n we g o t a bou t Vietnam was from t h e v e t e r a n s t h e m s e l v e s t h a t were work ing w i t h u s . We had no a c c e s s t o newspaper and a n y t h i n g l i k e t h i s , o r t e l e v i s i o n u n t i l a f t e r I g o t o u t o f b a s i c t r a i n i n g , and I went and s p e c i a l i z e d a t t h e F o r t Hous ton , V i r g i n i a ; t h e n I had a c c e s s t o t e l e v i s i o n and newspaper and s t u f f l i k e t h i s and I s t a r t e d t o r e a d a b o u t [ i t ] .

SF: T a l k i n g a b o u t c h o i c e s i n go ing t o Vie tnam War, were you g i v e n a chance t o make a c h o i c e , t o make a s e l e c t i o n t o go o r t h e m i l i t a r y p e r s o n n e l o f f i c e r s , h i g h e r o f f i c e r s had t o s e l e c t you t o go?

BN: W e l l , I d o n ' t know wha t t h e whole p r o c e s s i s , b u t you a r e n ' t g i v e n a c h a n c e o f where you a r e g o i n g t o s e r v e . Af t e r I h a d c o m p l e t e d my advanced t r a i n i n g i n movements c o n t r o l — o u t f o r t h e c l a s s o f f o r t y — t h e r e was two o f u s t h a t had r e c e i v e d o r d e r s . We had f i n i s h e d ou r c l a s s and we were w a i t i n g t o s ee where were g o i n g t o g o . Everybody h a d r e c e i v e d o r d e r s t o go on s p e c i f i c p o s t s . We had o n e guy t h a t went t o E t h i o p i a ; he had o r d e r s t o go t o E t h i o p i a . [A] c o u p l e o f g u y s wen t t o Germany, b u t t h e r e was two o f u s t h a t had r e c e i v e d o r d e r s , o u t o f t h e c l a s s o f f o r t y , t h a t was g o i n g t o Vie tnam. Tha t was o u r f i r s t d u t y - s t a t i o n ; t h e y c a l l i t p e r m a n e n t d u t y - s t a t i o n . We were g i v e n t h i r t y days l e a v e t o go home and v i s i t and e v e r y t h i n g and t h e n we had t o r e p o r t back i n Oakland i n t h i r t y d a y s t o c a t c h t h e f l i g h t t o go t o Vie tnam.

SF: When you were i n Vie tnam, what was your f i r s t r e a c t i o n o f t h e p l a c e ?

BN: W e l l , I t h i n k — c o m e b a c k now [ t o ] O a k l a n d — t h e r e was two h u n d r e d and f i f t y o f us t h a t was g o i n g t o c a t c h t h e World A i r l i n e s , a m i l i t a r y f l i g h t t o go t o Vie tnam. I g u e s s t h a t t h i n g s d i d n ' t s e t i n w i t h e v e r y b o d y . I was a l i t t l e o l d e r t h a n e v e r y b o d y e l s e , you know, t w e n t y - t h r e e y e a r s o l d a t t h a t t i m e and most o f t h e g u y s were n i n e t e e n and t w e n t y . So

[ 2 0 0 ] I was two o r t h r e e y e a r s o l d e r t h a n most o f t h e g u y s t h a t were g o i n g w i t h me t o V ie tnam. The re was no v e t e r a n s on t h e a i r p l a n e . [On] t h e f l i g h t o v e r t h e r e , I g u e s s p e o p l e were h i d i n g t h e i r f e a r s a b o u t wha t was coming a b o u t ; you know, t h e r e ' s nobody t a l k i n g a b o u t Vie tnam. I f t h e y d i d t a l k a b o u t Vie tnam, t h e y t a l k a b o u t r u m o r s t h a t t h e y h e a r d a b o u t p i c k i n g up s o u v e n i r s ; t h e A-K r i f l e s , and swords and a l l t h a t s t u f f . T h e r e ' s a l o t o f t a l k g o i n g on o v e r t h e r e , and I g u e s s , t h e f e a r s w e r e b r o u g h t up when we made a o n e - h o u r r e f u e l i n g s t o p i n Guam. On a m i l i t a r y f l i g h t , you c a n n o t b r i n g l i q u o r on a p l a n e , b u t e v i d e n t l y a l o t o f t h e g u y s g o t a c c e s s t o l i q u o r and so l i q u o r came on t h e p l a n e , and t h e s t e w a r d e s s n e v e r c h e c k e d t o s e e w h a t , b e c a u s e we were a l l i n f a t i g u e s , and you know, had b i g p o c k e t s and you can e a s i l y b r i n g t h e t h i n g s on t h e p l a n e . So a t a b o u t o n e hour a f t e r

we g o t o u t o f Guam, t h e guys were d r u n k , r e a l l y b o o z i n g i t up on t h e a i r p l a n e . And t h e n t h e c a p t a i n came on t h e a i r , t o l d eve rybody t o t u r n i n a l l t h e l i q u o r , and t h i n g s were k i n d o f b a d on t h e p l a n e , i t was g e t t i n g k i n d o f rowdy. And p r e t t y soon t h e guys w e r e n ' t t u r n i n g i n a l l t h e l i q u o r , t h e s t e w a r d e s s e s w e r e h a v i n g a h a r d t i m e c o n t r o l l i n g t h e guys on t h e p l a n e . And a l l o f sudden t h e l i g h t s wen t o f f , and i f you l o o k , when we l ook o u t s i d e t h e window—we r e a l i z e wha t was h a p p e n i n g now, b e c a u s e a l l you can s e e i s t h e t i p o f o u r p l a n e . You can s ee t h e l i g h t , i f you look a t an a i r p l a n e , t h e r e ' s a lways a l i g h t b l i n k i n g on t h e t a i l , t h e t i p o f t h e a i r p l a n e . But t h e r e ' s a l s o a n o t h e r l i g h t b l i n k i n g on t h e o t h e r end a l i t t l e f u r t h e r o u t . But t h e n i n a d i s t a n c e you can s e e t h e f l a s h e s i n t h e s k y ; you c a n n o t h e a r any n o i s e b u t you can s e e t h e f l a s h , and t h e n t h e r e a l i z a t i o n t h a t y o u ' r e a l m o s t t h e r e , and t h a t ' s when t h e c a p t a i n came on t h e a i r and s a y s , "Gent lemen, I g o t s t r i c t o r d e r s t h a t we [ a r e ] coming i n t o Saigon A i r p o r t . "

SF: Was t h i s a n a t i o n a l a i r p o r t o r a m i l i t a r y a i r p o r t ?

BN: No, t h i s i s t h e n a t i o n a l a i r p o r t . T h i s i s Sa igon , t h e c a p i t a l c i t y o f Vietnam a t t h e t i m e , and i t [ h a s ] c h a n g e [ d ] t o Ho Chi Minh C i t y now. We ' r e making ou r a p p r o a c h t o Saigon a i r p o r t ; w e ' r e n o t t u r n i n g on t h e l i g h t s . I f you look o u t s i d e t h e window you g o t a F-14 f i g h t e r - j e t on your r i g h t and a F-14 f i g h t e r - j e t on your l e f t . T h e y ' r e e s c o r t i n g us and i f you can s e e i n a d i s t a n c e a l l t h e f l a s h e s , t h a t ' s f i g h t i n g g o i n g o n .

SF: Were t h o s e two f i g h t e r p l a n e s U . S . o r Vietnam p l a n e s ?

BN: No, t h e y w e r e U . S . They were e s c o r t i n g us i n . And h e [ t h e c a p t a i n ] s a y s , "The f i g h t i n g i s r e a l l y h e a v y , and we g o t s t r i c t o r d e r s t o make ou r l a n d i n g . We ' r e n o t t u r n i n g on t h e l i g h t s , p l e a s e s i t down, s t r a p y o u r s e l v e s i n , a l l c i g a r e t t e s o u t , t u r n i n a l l t h e l i q u o r t o t h e s t e w a r d e s s e s . " £b e v e r y t h i n g was done i n t h e d a r k now. Nobody was d i s o b e d i e n t t o a n y t h i n g ; nobody was rowdy. I n f a c t , I t h i n k e v e r y b o d y s o b e r e d u p , t h e g u y s t h a t were d r u n k . They j u s t t u r n i n t h e l i q u o r ; t h e s t e w a r d e s s came down t h e a i s l e [ t o ] c o l l e c t a l l t h e l i q u o r and e v e r y t h i n g i n t h e d a r k , and t h e n we made our a p p r o a c h . Soon a s t h e p l a n e h i t t h e g round you , s e c u r e your e q u i p m e n t s i n t h e o v e r h e a d o r under t h e s e a t , whe reve r you h a v e s t u f f , i n t h e d a r k . The door f lung open and t h e c a p t a i n s a y s , "Get o u t o f t h e a i r p l a n e a s f a s t a s you c a n . " And when we came o u t o f t h e a i r p l a n e , t h e t r u c k s w e r e w a i t i n g fo r u s on t h e l a n d i n g s t r i p , and a l l t h e s e comba t -r e a d y g u y s , t h a t were a l r e a d y t h e r e , w i t h mach ine -gun guys i n t h e j e e p s w i t h mach ine g u n s , M-60s, and a l l t h e y k e p t y e l l i n g a t u s [ w a s ] , "Move, move, m o v e i " . And a l l we d i d was g e t o u t o f t h e r e .

SF: But b e f o r e you l e f t t h i s t r i p , we re you g i v e n s t r i c t i n s t r u c t i o n s a b o u t how you were g o i n g t o p e r f o r m o r r e a c t

when you g e t t o Vie tnam? Were you g i v e n t h o s e s t r i c t i n s t r u c t i o n s ?

BN: W e l l , t h e y g i v e you a b a c k g r o u n d o f wha t h a s h a p p e n e d o v e r t h e r e , b u t how y o u ' r e g o i n g t o a c t a s an i n d i v i d u a l when you g e t o v e r t h e r e i s a l i t t l e d i f f e r e n t s t o r y . They gave you t h e b a s i c p s y c h o l o g y and t h e s o c i a l a s p e c t s o f t h e V i e t n a m e s e p e o p l e so you u n d e r s t a n d when you g e t t h e r e i t ' s g o i n g t o b e a d i f f e r e n t c u l t u r e . They g a v e you k i n d o f a good b a c k g r o u n d o f wha t t o e x p e c t . T h i s i s wha t we r e c e i v e d b e f o r e we l e f t b e c a u s e I s t a y e d i n Oakland a b o u t four days and a l l t h a t t i m e we went t h r o u g h cus toms o f t h e V i e t n a m e s e ; wha t was h a p p e n i n g i n t h e w a r ; t h e t y p e o f war t h a t was f i g h t i n g t h e r e . I t w a s n ' t a c o n v e n t i o n a l war l i k e t h e y d i d i n Europe, where e v e r y t h i n g — t h i s was t u n n e l r a t s — g u y s were s n i p e r s and a l l t h i s k i n d o f s t u f f . So we had a p r e t t y good i d e a o f wha t t o e x p e c t when you g o t o v e r t h e r e . But how you were go ing t o a c t i n d i v i d u a l l y i s a n o t h e r t h i n g . And so t h e p l a n e t h i n g , r u n n i n g o u t o f t h e a i r p l a n e i n t h e d a r k , and t h e o n l y l i g h t s t h a t were s h i n i n g was t h e j e e p s . You jump i n t h e t r u c k w i t h your e q u i p m e n t , and t h e a i r p l a n e , a l l i t d i d was open up t h e b e l l y and g u y s shoved o u t a l l o u r baggage o n t o t h e g r o u n d , and t h e y t u r n e d t h e p l a n e a r o u n d and t o o k o f f . The p l a n e d i d n ' t even s t a y t h e r e t o r e f u e l ; t h e y went t o T h a i l a n d t o r e f u e l . And a l l we d i d was jump i n t h e t r u c k and somebody t h r e w a l l t h e b a g s o n t o a c o u p l e o f t r u c k s , and t h a t was i t . We t o o k o f f . I d o n ' t know how long t h e r i d e t o o k , b u t i t was a l l i n t h e d a r k . When we g o t t o ou r p l a c e t h a t we were s u p p o s e t o b e , i n a m i l i t a r y U n i t e d S t a t e s Array d e p o t p e r s o n n e l c e n t r e , e v e r y t h i n g was d a r k o v e r t h e r e and a l l you can h e a r i s mach ine gun f i r e .

SF: About your l u g g a g e — I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t t h i s was d u r i n g a w a r — I was j u s t wonde r ing i f you were a s s i g n e d some s o r t o f armaments (weapons) from Oak land , be tween t h e d i s t a n c e from

[ 3 0 0 ] Oakland and Vie tnam? Or was i t j u s t t h e r e g u l a r c l o t h i n g and so f o r t h ?

BN: The b a s i c m i l i t a r y c l o t h i n g t h a t we h a v e , f a t i g u e s , b o o t s , u n d e r w e a r , no m i l i t a r y weapon o r a n y t h i n g l i k e t h i s . You g e t t h a t a s s i g n e d t o you when you g e t t o t h e u n i t t h a t you a r e a s s i g n e d t o . Mysel f , I was a s s i g n e d t o go t o t h e F i r s t L o g i s t i c a l Command b e c a u s e ray r e s p o n s i b i l i t y was s u p p o r t . I w a s n ' t an i n f a n t r y man, o r armament-man o r p a r a c h u t i s t o r a n y t h i n g l i k e t h i s . My s p e c i a l t y was suppose t o b e h a n d l i n g t r a n s p o r t a t i o n o f c a r g o and s t u f f l i k e t h i s . My r e a l r e s p o n s i b l i t y was s u p p o r t t o t h e F i r s t L o g i s t i c a l Command, t h a t ' s where I would r e c e i v e my weapons and w h a t e v e r e l s e I n e e d , h e l m e t and t h i n g s l i k e t h i s . Up t o t h e n , I 'm j u s t r u n n i n g a round w i t h a l i t t l e s o f t b a l l c a p , you know, d r e s s e d i n army f a t i g u e s , some o f f l i g h t f a t i g u e s .

SF: Were t h e r e any o t h e r commanders t h a t were accompanying you f o l k s from Oakland t o Vie tnam?

BN: W e l l , t h e y had a b o u t four s e r g e a n t s t h a t b r o u g h t u s o v e r . No, t h e r e w a s n ' t any o f f i c e r s w i t h us t h e n ; t h e y p r o b a b l y was i n a d i f f e r e n t s e c t i o n , b u t t h e y w a s n ' t w i t h u s . We were a l l i n an e n l i s t e d a r e a ; I was an e n l i s t e d man, n o t an o f f i c e r . So I wen t i n a s a p r i v a t e i n t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s Army, t h e r a n k o f PFC ( P r i v a t e F i r s t C l a s s ) .

SF: I was g o i n g t o a s k you i f you c o u l d g i v e me a n o t h e r o v e r v i e w o f your f e e l i n g s a b o u t when you f i r s t g o t t h e r e . I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t t h e Vie tnam War began when t h e N o r t h -domina ted communist g o v e r n m e n t - - ! ' m s u r e you u n d e r s t o o d a b o u t t h e o v e r t h r o w o f t h e S o u t h - V i e t n a m e s e gove rnmen t—and y o u r s e l f , b e i n g a U n i t e d S t a t e s s o l d i e r even t h o u g h you w e r e n ' t a c t u a l l y d e a l i n g w i t h t h e f i g h t i n g , how d i d you a c t u a l l y f e e l a b o u t f i g h t i n g a war i n a f o r e i g n l and for f o r e i g n p e o p l e ? I f I can u n d e r s t a n d w e l l , t h e Vietnam War — i t was m a i n l y t h e Vie tnamese p e o p l e t h e m s e l v e s — Nor th V ie tnamese v e r s u s S o u t h . How d i d you a c t u a l l y f e e l a b o u t i t ? Being a U . S . s o l d i e r , f i g h t i n g a f o r e i g n war i n a f o r e i g n l a n d ?

BN: W e l l , l e t me e x p l a i n t o you up u n t i l we g e t t o my f i r s t a c t u a l a s s i g n m e n t . A f t e r t h a t n i g h t , t h e n e x t day , t h e y were h u n t i n g for i n f a n t r y men. They were l o o k i n g for guys t o go o u t t h e r e and a c t u a l l y f i g h t . They d i d n ' t c a r e wha t k i n d o f s c h o o l i n g , wha t k i n d o f backg round you h a d ; t h e y j u s t need a X number o f b o d i e s t o go o u t t h e r e and f i l l up an i n f a n t r y u n i t . And so we go t o t h i s b i g a r e a and a l l t h e guys d i d was "O.K. from r i g h t h e r e , you on t h e l e f t , move o v e r t o t h e l e f t . You, move o v e r t o t h e r i g h t . O.K. a l l o f you r e p o r t t o t h a t g u y . " And a l l t h o s e guys a l l went t o t h e combat u n i t .

SF: L e t me j u s t i n t e r r u p t you . Y o u ' r e t a l k i n g a b o u t i n f a n t r y , and , c o u l d you g i v e me a l i t t l e d e s c r i p t i o n o f i n f a n t r y ? What a c t u a l l y i s an i n f a n t r y ?

BN: W e l l , i n f a n t r y u n i t i s , o r g r u n t s t h e y c a l l i t . T h a t ' s t h e g u y s t h a t go o u t t h e r e and a c t u a l l y do t h e f i g h t i n g . They e i t h e r c a r r y an M-16, o r an M-60; M-16 i s a r i f l e , M-60 i s a mach ine -gun o r someth ing l i k e you s e e on "Rambo", o r even h a n d l i n g a bazooka t o s h o o t t a n k s . These a r e t h e guys t h a t a c t u a l l y go i n t o t h e j u n g l e and do t h e a c t u a l f ace t o f a c e combat w i t h t h e Nor th V i e t n a m e s e , o r Vie tOong , whoever t h e enemy; t h e y a r e t h e o n e s a p p r o a c h i n g t h e enemy. And t h e r e a s o n why t h e y t o o k guys t h a t were m e d i c s , o r wha t eve r o t h e r k i n d , t h e y wen t t o i n f a n t r y u n i t s . I happened t o f a l l i n t o one c a t e g o r y t h a t would go i n t o s u p p o r t and I g o t my o r i g i n a l a s s i g n m e n t . Now, ray o r i g i n a l a s s i g n m e n t t o o k p l a c e ; I was s e n t t o an a r e a c a l l Camranh Bay, Vie tnam, and t h i s was a b i g m i l i t a r y d e p o t a r e a . T h i s was where t h e c a r g o s h i p s came i n fo r a l l t h e s u p p l i e s .

SF: Was t h i s c l o s e t o t h e n a t i o n a l a i r p o r t , Sa igon?

BN: Oh, n o , t h i s i s up t h e c o a s t . T h i s i s a b o u t h a l f w a y be tween Nor th Vietnam and S a igon . 3D , I had t o g e t on m i l i t a r y p l a n e and g e t t r a n s f e r r e d up t o t h i s b i g b a y a r e a . R i g h t now t h a t same b a y i s used r i g h t now by R u s s i a a s t h e i r b i g g e s t m i l i t a r y b a y i n Vie tnam. My r e s p o n s i b i l i t y w a s , a s t h e s h i p s came i n and u n l o a d e d c a r g o , a l l t h e s u p p l i e s ; we u n l o a d e d ammuni t ion , we u n l o a d e d food s u p p l i e s , a n y t h i n g t h a t was o r d e r e d by any o f t h e u n i t s w i t h i n t h e upper p a r t of , from where I was a l l t h e way up t o t h e " n a n g " — t h e p l a c e s t h a t were f i g h t i n g — w e u n l o a d e d t h e c a r g o . But we a l s o b a c k l o a d e d , l o a d e d o n t o t h e s h i p s e q u i p m e n t , t r u c k s t h a t was a l l t o r n u p , g o i n g home fo r r e c y c l e o r d i s p o s a l . One o f t h e w o r s t j o b s we had was s h i p p i n g b o d i e s b a c k home b e c a u s e when t h e " r e f e r s h i p s " — t h a t ' s wha t t h e y c a l l t h e " r e f e r s h i p s " — s h i p s t h a t b r o u g h t m e a t , a l l f r o z e n i t e m s , and t h e s e a r e b i g s h i p s w i t h a l l d i f f e r e n t d e p a r t m e n t o f r e f r i g e r a t i o n . So we b a c k l o a d e d t h e s e s h i p s w i t h b o d i e s t h a t were g o i n g home; wrapped up i n p l a s t i c b a g s and t a g . So we had t o a c c o u n t for a l l t h e s e , and t h e r e w a s , I g u e s s t h a t was t h e w o r s t p a r t o f my crew o v e r t h e r e .

SF: I t h i n k t h e Vietnam War was f o u g h t n o t i n j u s t one p l a c e ; i t was f o u g h t i n many o t h e r a r e a .

BN: I t t o o k up from t h e n o r t h a l l t h e way down t o t h e s o u t h , down t o t h e D e l t a a r e a wh ich i s t h e s o u t h e r n p a r t o f V ie tnam.

SF: But a s b e i n g a p e r s o n n e l , s u p p l y p e r s o n n e l y o u r s e l f , were you a l s o r e s p o n s i b l e fo r s u p p l y i n g t h e s e o t h e r v a r i o u s a r e a s ?

BN: We t o o k c a r e o f t h e n o r t h e r n p a r t o f Vietnam a s f a r a s s u p p l i e s were c o n c e r n e d . E v e r y t h i n g t h a t came i n t o Camranh Bay, we s h i p p e d o u t t o t h e n o r t h e r n p a r t ; t h e ammuni t ion , and e v e r y t h i n g . What o u r a r e a c o n s i s t e d o f — t h e u n i t s t h a t I was in—we t o o k c a r e o f t h e l o a d i n g and u n l o a d i n g s h i p s . We had m i l i t a r y g u y s , t h e y were c o n s i d e r e d l o n g - s h o r e - m e n , o r guys t h a t work on t h e p i e r s . I f you were g o i n g down t o Mat son s h i p y a r d , t h i s i s t h e k i n d o f j o b s we d i d . We work

[ 4 0 0 ] t w e l v e - h o u r s h i f t s u n l o a d i n g s h i p s , and t w e l v e - h o u r s h i f t s b a c k l o a d i n g s h i p s . Tha t was our j o b s . I s t a y t h e r e , we had Vie tnamese c l e a n i n g women t h a t came i n and c l e a n our—we l i v e i n t e n t s t h a t had wooden f l o o r s — m a k e s h i f t wooden f l o o r s , t h a t we p u t o u r s e l v e s . And Vie tnamese came i n t o do ou r l a u n d r y and c l e a n u p , do t h e wash ing p o t s and p a n s and s t u f f s l i k e t h i s b e c a u s e t h e y g a v e them j o b s b e c a u s e o u r j o b was s t r i c t l y g o i n g i n u n l o a d i n g and b a c k l o a d i n g s h i p s . Of c o u r s e , o t h e r u n i t s i n Camranh l i k e t h e t r u c k i n g u n i t s , t h e y l o a d e d up t h e t r u c k s and t h i s i s how t h e y g o t t h e equ ipmen t up t o t h e n o r t h e r n p a r t was convoys from t h i s t r u c k i n g u n i t s .

SF: By t h e way, were t h e r e any k i n d o f d i f f i c u l t i e s you e n c o u n t e r e d d u r i n g t h i s l o a d i n g and u n l o a d i n g o f s u p p l i e s a s

fa r a s t h e e n e m y ' s i n t e r f e r e n c e was c o n c e r n e d ?

BN: Now, t h e f i g h t i n g fo r us was a b o u t t h r e e m i l e s away. Tha t was a c r o s s t h e b a y . We were k i n d o f i n a s h e l t e r e d a r e a . In f a c t , ou r a r e a neve r g o t o v e r r u n u n t i l I l e f t . In t h e 1968 , "Te t O f f e n s i v e " — o n e month a f t e r I l e f t — t h e y o v e r r a n Camranh Bay. T h a t was t h e f i r s t t i m e t h e b a y g o t o v e r r a n ; o t h e r t h a n t h a t t h e b a y was p r e t t y much p r o t e c t e d . I t was k i n d o f l i k e a f o r t r e s s by i t s e l f b e c a u s e t h e o n l y o t h e r e n t r a n c e you can come i n t o Camranh Bay i s by o c e a n o r t h e r e was a t h i n l i t t l e j o i n i n g on o n e end b u t , s p e c i a l f o r c e s t o o k c a r e o f t h a t . We had a l s o had Air F o r c e b a s e t h a t was a b o u t a m i l e and a h a l f from where we were a t . By 1968 , t h e y o v e r r a n Camranh Bay, I d o n ' t know t h e s i t u a t i o n was a f t e r t h a n b e c a u s e one month a f t e r I had l e f t , t h e y o v e r r a n t h e b a y .

SF: How long d i d you s e r v e t h e r e , i n t h e Vietnam a s a p e r s o n n e l ?

BN: E i g h t e e n m o n t h s .

SF: For e i g h t e e n m o n t h s .

BN: I g o t t o e x p l a i n t h a t s i t u a t i o n now b e c a u s e , you s e e , t h e t e r m o f b o o t y o v e r t h e r e i s one y e a r . Then you can come back t o t h e S t a t e s , and t h e way t h e rumors was g o i n g a round [ i s ] t h a t , u s u a l l y t h e y k e e p you back i n t h e S t a t e s [ f o r ] s i x m o n t h s , and t h e y ' l l s h i p you back a g a i n . And m y s e l f , have e n l i s t e d fo r t h r e e y e a r s , so I have s t i l l h a d a l o t o f t i m e I c o u l d come b a c k . So a f t e r my f i r s t y e a r t h e r e , I r e c e i v e d o r d e r s t o go t o F o r t Campbel l Ken tucky . At t h e same t i m e , t h e r i o t s were t a k i n g p l a c e i n D e t r o i t . The r a c e - r i o t s and a l s o i n San F r a n c i s c o , t h e r e was r i o t s i n for p r o t e s t i n g t h e war i n Vie tnam, and t h e y were u s i n g — i f I had gone t o F o r t Campbell Ken tucky , wh ich i s t h e home o f 1 0 1 s t A i r b o r n e u n i t — t h e y were u s e d i n D e t r o i t t o p u t down t h e r i o t s , a l l t h e s e t r o o p s were s e n t up t o D e t r o i t . So I h a d t o make a c h o i c e t h e r e , you know; do I wan t t o s t a y where I was a t , wh ich was p r e t t y much p r o t e c t e d i n Camranh Bay and I was g e t t i n g s i x t y - d o l l a r s more a month . The re was e c o n o m i c s , you know, s i x t y - d o l l a r s more a month v e r s u s g e t t i n g s e n t t o F o r t Campbel l Kentucky and t h e n g o i n g up t o D e t r o i t , and go p u s h some American o f f t h e s i d e t h a t [ a r e ] n o t happy a b o u t Amer ica and t h e war i n Vie tnam and g e t k i l l e d w i t h a b r i c k , so I e x t e n d e d . I p u t i n an a p p l i c a t i o n t o e x t e n d .

SF: W e l l , b e s i d e s your economic b e n e f i t s t h e r e i n Vie tnam, d i d you a c t u a l l y e n j o y your j o b a s b e i n g a s u p p l y p e r s o n n e l ?

BN: I e n j o y e d i t b e c a u s e I was do ing wha t I w a n t e d t o d o . You know, wha t I was t r a i n i n g f o r ; a l o t o f g u y s were unhappy b e c a u s e wha t t h e y t r a i n e d for t h e y ended up i n t h e i n f a n t r y , o r some do someth ing e l s e t h e y t r u l y h a t e d . I t h i n k , a s f a r a s my a s s o c i a t i o n w i t h V i e t n a m e s e , i t came a w h i l e a f t e r s i x

8

m o n t h s b e i n g t h e r e . T h e n , we w e r e n ' t r e c e i v i n g r e p l a c e m e n t , m i l i t a r y p e r s o n n e l c o m i n g i n t o r e p l a c e t h o s e w e r e b e i n g s e n t h o m e . What t h e y w e r e d o i n g now, t h e y w e r e t r y i n g t o g i v e t h e V i e t n a m e s e j o b s . So a t some p o i n t i n t i m e t h e y c a n s u r v i v e o n t h e i r own i f t h e m i l i t a r y h a v e t o p u l l o u t . So w h a t we w e r e d o i n g now, we w e r e w o r k i n g w i t h V i e t n a m e s e o n u n l o a d i n g .

S F : A r e y o u s a y i n g t h a t t h e U . S . m i l i t a r y a c t u a l l y r e c r u i t e d t h e V i e t n a m e s e p e o p l e a n d p a i d t h e m o f w h a t t h e i r s e r v i c e s m i g h t b e ?

BN: R i g h t . T h e y c o n t r a c t e d t h e w o r k o u t . I n o u r a r e a , i t w a s w h a t t h e y c a l l "Lara B r o t h e r s " . T h e r e ' s f o u r b r o t h e r s , t h e i r l a s t name w a s Lam. T h e y o r g a n i z e t h e i r own w h a t t h e y c a l l " S t e v e d o r e s " - t y p e - c o m p a n y . So a s o u r m i l i t a r y p e r s o n n e l w a s r o t a t e d o u t o f V i e t n a m , t h e Lam b r o t h e r s came i n , a n d we h a d t o w o r k w i t h t h e m o n u n l o a d i n g a n d l o a d i n g t h e s h i p s . 3D t h a t ' s w h e r e we s t a r t e d t o a s s o c i a t e w i t h t h e V i e t n a m e s e , w h i c h w a s h a r d b e c a u s e you k n o w , t h e c o m m u n i c a t i o n p r o b l e m w a s o n e u n l e s s y o u know how t o s p e a k V i e t n a m e s e . T h e r e w a s some g u y s t h a t s u p p o s e d l y know how t o s p e a k V i e t n a m e s e , b u t y o u k n o w , i t w a s n ' t , i t w a s n ' t . . .

SF : I u n d e r s t a n d t o o t h a t d u r i n g t h i s w a r , t h e r e w e r e N o r t h V i e t n a m e s e o r C o m m u n i s t V i e t n a m e s e a l l o v e r t h e S o u t h V i e t n a m e s e a n d h i d i n g t h e m s e l v e s a n d so f o r t h . I w a s k i n d o f c u r i o u s i f d u r i n g y o u r c o u r s e o f y o u r e m p l o y m e n t t h e r e , o r y o u r s e r v i c e t h e r e a s a s u p p l y p e r s o n n e l , i f t h e r e w a s a n y i n c i d e n c e i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e V i e t n a m e s e p e o p l e ? I f t h e r e w a s a n y k i n d o f c a s e w h e r e t h e V i e t n a m e s e w i l l s m u g g l e some s u p p l i e s t o t h e i r p e o p l e a n d t o , t o t h e o t h e r s i d e o f t h e w a r ?

BN: W h i l e w o r k i n g w i t h t h e V i e t n a m e s e , y o u ' r e a l w a y s s u s p i c i o u s . My i m p r e s s i o n o f t h e V i e t n a m e s e o v e r t h e r e a t t h a t t i m e w a s t h e y ' r e t a k i n g i t f r o m b o t h s i d e s . W h a t e v e r t h e y c a n g e t f rom t h e A m e r i c a n s , t h e y ' l l t a k e , a n d w h a t e v e r t h e y c a n g e t f r o m t h e e n e m y , t h e y ' l l t a k e . S o , a s A m e r i c a n s , we a l w a y s s t a y away f rom t h e s i t u a t i o n . I n f a c t , a b o u t t h e m i d d l e o f my e i g h t e e n t h m o n t h o v e r t h e r e , o r my f i f t e e n t h - m o n t h o v e r t h e r e , I d i d n ' t w a n t a n y t h i n g t o do w i t h t h e V i e t n a m e s e . I n f a c t , I w a s s i c k o f t h e m b e c a u s e t h e y w i l l — e v e r y t h i n g i s , " G i v e m e , g i v e m e , g i v e m e . A m e r i c a n s , A m e r i c a n s , y o u g e t p l e n t y , so g i v e me s o m e , g i v e me s o m e . " So i t w a s a l l t h i s k i n d o f s t u f f g o i n g o n i n t h e r e , you k n o w , i t j u s t , y o u g e t so t h a t you d o n ' t w a n t t o a s s o c i a t e w i t h t h e m a f t e r a w h i l e . And a s f a r a s t h a t t h e Lam b r o t h e r w a s r a k i n g i t i n . I d o n ' t know w h a t " k i n e " c o n t r a c t t h e y w e r e h a v i n g b u t t h e y w e r e m a k i n g b i g b u c k s o u t t h e r e , a n d t h e p o o r V i e t n a m e s e g u y s t h e y w e r e n ' t m a k i n g t h a t much b u t t h a t w a s t h e i m p r e s s i o n a f t e r a w h i l e a s A m e r i c a n s t h a t we s t a r t e d t o t h i n k .

SF : B u t t h e r e w a s no a c t u a l c a s e o f s m u g g l i n g s u p p l i e s ?

9

BN: W e l l , o n c e i n a w h i l e y o u h e a r a g u y c o m e s i n . B e c a u s e t h e s e c u r i t y w a s p r e t t y , p r e t t y g o o d . You know, b e c a u s e you a l w a y s h a d s p e c i a l forces t h a t e n f o r c e t h e s e c u r i t y when t h e y came i n t o Camranh b e c a u s e o f t h e l o c a t i o n o f t h e b a y . So i t w a s h a r d for t h e m t o come i n t o i n f a n t r y . B u t o n c e i n a w h i l e you h e a r o f a bomb e x p l o d i n g i n some g u y s t e n t , a n d s o m e b o d y d i e d b e c a u s e some V i e t n a m e s e b r o u g h t i n — a t t a c k t o h i s b o d y — s o m e e x p l o s i v e . I t w a s a l w a y s a t r i c k . And o n e t i m e we w e r e p u t o n a l e r t for t h e V i e t n a m e s e w a s swimming a c r o s s t h e b a y , t h e N o r t h V i e t n a m e s e w a s swimming a c r o s s

[ 5 0 0 ] t h e b a y . B u t t h e p a t r o l b o a t s g o t t h e m a l l .

SF: How f a r i s t h i s b a y f rom t h e . . . ?

BN: T h r e e m i l e s d i s t a n c e . B u t o n t h e o t h e r s i d e we h a d s p e c i a l f o r c e s . So we f e l t p r e t t y c o m f o r t a b l e . I t w a s j u s t t h a t o n e t h r e a t e n i n g t i m e t h a t t h e y s t a r t e d t o swim a c r o s s t h e b a y t o g e t t o w h e r e we a t .

SF : B u t t h e r e w a s no a c t u a l b o m b i n g o f t h e b a y , o r f i g h t i n g a r o u n d t h e b a y ?

BN: N o . W e l l , t h e r e w a s a l o t o f f i g h t i n g o u t i n t h e b a y , w i t h t h e g u y s swimming a c r o s s , you k n o w , t h e m i l i t a r y k i l l t h e g u y s . T h e r e ' s t h e — b e s i d e s t h e s p e c i a l forces—there's a l s o t h e R e p u b l i c o f K o r e a , w h a t we c a l l t h e "Rock F o r c e s " , now y o u m e n t i o n some b a d d u d e s a s t h e Rock F o r c e s . To me a n y w a y , l i f e w a s n o t h i n g o v e r t h e r e . You k n o w , t o s n u f f o n a l i f e w a s no b i g t h i n g ; i t w a s j u s t a w a y o f l i f e . T h a t w a s t h e a t t i t u d e o f e v e r y b o d y o v e r t h e r e . And I ' v e s e e n , b e i n g o n a m i s s i o n i n . . .

[ 5 1 3 ] END OF SIDE A

SIDE B

BN: B e i n g o n a m i s s i o n w i t h I n d i a n s , a n d com ing b a c k o v e r [ 0 0 0 ] t h e r e , I a s s o c i a t e d w i t h some I n d i a n s . Bu t t h e s e g u y s w e r e

i n t o i t . You k n o w , t h e y w e r e , a s f a r a s t h e y w e r e c o n c e r n e d , t h e r e w a s n o t h i n g e l s e f o r t h e m t o do b a c k h o m e . And t h e y k e p t , o n e g u y h a s b e e n t h e r e [ f o r ] t h r e e y e a r s , a n I n d i a n , you k n o w , h e h a d h i s h a i r l o n g . He l o o k l i k e o n e o f t h o s e y o u s e e o n J o h n Wayne m o v i e s . You k n o w , h e w a s a s c o u t . And h e came b a c k j u s t f o r t h e t h r i l l o f b e i n g a p o i n t man o n t h e u n i t . And t h e n t h a t w a s h i s j o b . He l i k e c r a w l i n g i n t o l i t t l e h o l e s a n d s t u f f l i k e t h i s , b u t o t h e r t h a n t h a t , t o me , t h e V i e t n a m w a r w a s a b i g w a s t e o f money f o r t h e m i l i t a r y b e c a u s e w h a t . . .

SF : W e l l , l e t me a s k you t h i s o t h e r q u e s t i o n b e f o r e we go f u r t h e r t o t h e g e n e r a l o p i n i o n o f t h e V i e t n a m War . I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t d u r i n g t h e w a r - t i m e i t ' s p o s s i b l e f o r a l l

1 0

s o l d i e r s t o s t a y a l e r t a t a l l t i m e s . B u t e v e n t h o u g h y o u w e r e n ' t a c t u a l l y f i g h t i n g t h e w a r a s a s o l d i e r , I w a s k i n d o f c u r i o u s i f d i d y o u a c t u a l l y , o r d i d y o u go t h r o u g h t h i s s u c h a l e r t n e s s when you w e r e w o r k i n g a s a s u p p l y p e r s o n n e l ?

BN: Oh, y e s , p o s s i b l y , e v e r y t h r e e m o n t h s we h a d t o go a n d f i r e w e a p o n s b e c a u s e we h a v e t h e w e a p o n s a s s i g n e d t o u s , b u t i t w a s l o c k e d u p i n a r o o m i n o u r u n i t . Bu t e v e r y t h r e e m o n t h s we h a d t o go a n d c h e c k i t o u t a n d we w e n t a s a u n i t t o f i r e t h e w e a p o n s t o q u a l i f y o n t h e f i e l d . J u s t a b o u t e v e r y w e e k , we h a d d r i l l s t h a t we h a d t o go t h r o u g h . You s l e e p a n d a l l o f a s u d d e n a n a l a r m r i n g s , y o u g e t u p , we h a d c e r t a i n d e s i g n a t e d a r e a s t h a t we h a d t o go t h r o u g h . 3D e v e r y t h r e e m o n t h s we h a d t o go t h r o u g h t h i s p r o c e s s o f a d r i l l t o k e e p o u r s e l v e s a l e r t a t a l l t i m e s . I t r e m i n d s u s t o w h e r e we a t b e c a u s e i t k i n d o f g o t l a x e d o v e r t h e r e b e c a u s e we h a d n i g h t c l u b s i n o u r a r e a s ; n i g h t c l u b s a n d e n t e r t a i n m e n t , t h e USO came i n . I saw Bob H o p e . Two y e a r s t w i c e , h e came f o r two C h r i s t m a s e s a n d I saw h i m b o t h t i m e s . B u t , y e s , e v e r y t h r e e m o n t h s we h a d t o go t h r o u g h .

SF: O k a y . Bu t y o u r w o r k i n g s c h e d u l e — h o w l o n g i s y o u r w o r k i n g s c h e d u l e l i k e , 8 h o u r s ?

BN: Seven d a y s a w e e k , t w e l v e h o u r s a d a y , w h i c h i s f i n e b e c a u s e t h e r e i s n o t h i n g e l s e t o do u n l e s s you w a n t t o g e t d r u n k .

SF : I c a n a l s o u n d e r s t a n d t h a t i n t h e m i l i t a r y — w e ' r e t a l k i n g a b o u t d i s c i p l i n e — o b e d i e n c e b e c o m e s t h e m a j o r e m p h a s i s , t h a t i s , o b e y i n g t h e command. B u t w h i l e y o u w e r e s e r v i n g a s a s u p p l y o f f i c e r d u r i n g t h e w a r , d i d you s o m e t i m e s f e e l l i k e g i v i n g u p t h a t command?

BN: W e l l , o v e r t h e r e m i l i t a r y d i s c i p l i n e w a s n ' t l i k e s t a t e - s i d e . S e r v i n g , m a y b e i n E u r o p e , o r i n t h e M a i n l a n d , i t w a s s t r i c t l y m i l i t a r y ; y o u know w h a t I m e a n , y o u s h i n e y o u r b o o t s ; y o u r b u c k l e h a d t o b e s h i n e d ; you s a l u t e , t h i s w h o l e t h i n g . B u t o v e r t h e r e , i t w a s r e l a x e d , v e r y r e l a x e d . A c o u p l e o f c o m m a n d e r s s a t down a n d a t e w i t h you l i k e o n e o f t h e g u y s , w h e r e a s b a c k i n t h e M a i n l a n d , t h e y h a d t h e i r own s e c t i o n t o s i t down a n d e a t ; t h e y w e n t t o t h e i r own p l a c e t o b u y s t u f f . Bu t o v e r t h e r e , i t w a s a r e l a x e d a t m o s p h e r e a s f a r a s a s s o c i a t i o n w i t h e n l i s t e d men a n d o f f i c e r s . An o f f i c e r , i n o u r u n i t , w a s s o m e b o d y t h e y c a n go a n d t a l k t o . I d o n ' t know how i t w a s i n t h e f i e l d — y o u h e a r s t o r i e s a b o u t g u y s g e t t i n g s h o t i n t h e b a c k a n d s t u f f l i k e t h i s , b u t I n e v e r e x p e r i e n c e d t h a t .

S F : W e l l , t h e o t h e r q u e s t i o n i s t h a t , t o me , when I t h i n k o f w a r s , I t h i n k o f s o l d i e r s f i g h t i n g a g a i n s t s o l d i e r s o r

[ 1 0 0 ] m a c h i n e s a g a i n s t m a c h i n e s . What w o u l d y o u s a y a b o u t t h e c i v i l i a n p o p u l a t i o n a r o u n d t h e a r e a w h e r e you w e r e w o r k i n g , o r w h e r e y o u w e r e s e r v i n g a t ? Were t h e y h e a v i l y a f f e c t e d , a n d how w e r e t h e y a f f e c t e d ? T h i s i s , I ' m r e f e r r i n g t o V i e t n a m e s e .

11

BN: W e l l , I d i d n ' t r e a l i z e t h a t t h e V i e t n a m e s e a c t u a l l y w e n t t h r o u g h q u i t e a l o t o f e x p e r i e n c e s , b e c a u s e a t o n e t i m e , t h e y w e r e u n d e r t h e J a p a n e s e . J a p a n e s e w a s r u n n i n g t h e c o u n t r y . So a s f a r a s t h e V i e t n a m e s e a n d t h e J a p a n e s e , t h e y c o u l d n ' t s t a n d e a c h o t h e r . J u s t b e f o r e A m e r i c a n came i n , t h e r e w a s t h e F r e n c h — t h e F r e n c h w a s r u n n i n g t h e V i e t n a m e s e — a n d t h e n t h e A m e r i c a n s came i n . So t h e y h a d s e e n t h r e e d i f f e r e n t , a t l e a s t , t h r e e d i f f e r e n t t y p e s o f l e a d e r s h i p r u l e t h a t came i n t o a t t a c k . So , I g u e s s , t h e p e o p l e a c t e d t h e w a y t h e y t h o u g h t w a s b e s t f o r t h e m . T h e y t r y t o g e t a s much a s t h e y c a n f rom w h o e v e r w a s t h e r e . You know, a n d t h e A m e r i c a n s r i g h t n o w — t h e A m e r i c a n s a t t h a t t i m e w a s g i v i n g away t h e m o s t w h a t e v e r t h e y w a n t e d . Our money w a s c o m i n g i n ; The A m e r i c a n GI w a s s p e n d i n g a l o t o f money i n t h e v i l l a g e s . B a s i c a l l y , t h e y a r e v e r y p o o r p e o p l e , you know, t h e v i l l a g e w a s a l l t i e d , p r o s t i t u t i n g , I g u e s s p r o s t i t u t i o n w a s t h e t h i n g . B e i n g c l o s e t o m i l i t a r y b a s e , p r o s t i t u t i o n w a s t h e t h i n g , p l u s p u s h i n g d o p e . You c o u l d b u y a b i g f i v e - p o u n d b a g o f h a s h i s h f o r t h r e e d o l l a r s . So t h e r e w e r e g u y s who h a v e a c c e s s t o a n y t h i n g t h e y w a n t e d t o smoke t o g e t h i g h . And a l o t o f m i l i t a r y g u y s o n o u r a r e a — t h e y w e r e g e t t i n g h i g h . A n y t h i n g you c a n g e t i t , i t w a s t h e r e .

S F : B u t t h e g e n e r a l p o p u l a t i o n o f V i e t n a m e s e t h e m s e l v e s , w e r e t h e y w e l l p r o t e c t e d a s f a r a s . . . ?

BN: T h o s e who w e r e l i v i n g i n Camranh Bay n e x t t o w h e r e we w e r e s t a t i o n e d , t h e y d i d n ' t h a v e a n y t h i n g t o w o r r y a b o u t . A l l t h e y h a v e t o do w a s t o l e a r n how t o s u r v i v e t o make a s much money a s t h e y c a n o f f t h e A m e r i c a n s . B u t , I g u e s s , i n o t h e r a r e a s i t w a s a l i t t l e d i f f e r e n t ; t h e y w e r e r u n n i n g a l l o v e r t h e p l a c e t r y i n g t o g e t o u t o f t h e w a y .

S F : I c o u l d a l s o u n d e r s t a n d t h a t t h e r e w e r e t r o o p s — l i k e y o u w e r e s u p p o r t i n g t h e S o u t h V i e t n a m e s e f o r c e — f r o m [ o t h e r n a t i o n s ] . And s i n c e t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s w a s p u t i n command o f t h e o p e r a t i o n , do you h a v e a n y i d e a i f t h e s e w e r e i n t e g r a t e d w i t h , o r s e g r e g a t e d f rom t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s t r o o p s ? L i k e , d i d t h e y f i g h t t o g e t h e r o r f i g h t o n t h e i r own p o s i t i o n s ?

BN: Mos t o f t h o s e w e r e i n f a n t r y - t y p e u n i t s . So when t h e y came t o o u r a r e a , i t w a s m o s t l y j u s t t o r e s t a n d r e c u p e r a t e o r g e t t r a n s f e r r e d o u t t o a n o t h e r a r e a . T h e r e w a s a n A u s t r a l i a n t r o o p ; t h e r e w a s M a o r i s ; t h e r e w a s t h e R e p u b l i c o f K o r e a . B u t t h a t w a s a l l i n t h e i n f a n t r y a r e a s ; t h e y w e r e a c t u a l l y o u t t h e r e s h o o t i n g a n d f i g h t i n g .

S F : W e l l , l e t me j u s t go b a c k t o y o u r a c t u a l w o r k a s a s u p p l y , a n d I w a s k i n d o f w o n d e r i n g when y o u l o a d e d t h e r e q u i r e d s u p p l i e s , how l o n g [ d i d ] t h e s e s u p p l i e s l a s t b e f o r e t h e y w e r e r e f i l l e d ?

BN: W e l l , s h i p s w e r e a l w a y s com i ng i n . So t h e s u p p l i e s t h a t we

12

t o o k o f f , we s e n t t o d i f f e r e n t a r e a s . We s e n t t o d e p o t a r e a ; we s e n t t o — t h e r e w a s a b o u t e i g h t o r n i n e a r e a s t h a t we s e n t w i t h i n Camranh Bay t h a t w a s o f f t h e p i e r . The t r u c k s c a m e , we l o a d e d u p t h e t r u c k s , t o o k t h e t h i n g s o u t , a n d f rom t h e r e i t w a s t r a n s f e r r e d o u t t o N a f a n g - d a n a n g , a l l t h o s e a r e a s t h a t w a s f i g h t i n g . So i t w a s a l w a y s r o t a t i n g w i t h i n Camranh B a y . So , I d o n ' t know how l o n g t h e t h i n g s t a y i n t h e w a r e h o u s e .

SF : Were t h e r e a n y o t h e r p a r t i c u l a r o r s p e c i a l k i n d o f w e a p o n s u p p l i e s t h a t w e r e n o t e v e n t o u c h e d d u r i n g t h e w a r , j u s t l i k e r e s e r v e d , o r u n t o u c h e d s u p p l i e s f rom w h e r e y o u w e r e w o r k i n g a t ?

BN: W e l l , for my E n g l i s h c l a s s , I w r o t e a n e s s a y o n t h e t a n k s ; I c a l l i t t h e m o n u m e n t . A c t u a l l y I d o n ' t know w h a t a t a n k w a s d o i n g i n V i e t n a m b e c a u s e t h e t e r r a i n i s n o t s u i t a b l e f o r t a n k . I t ' s a l l swamp, r i c e p a d d l e s , a n d s t u f f . Bu t I c a n r e m e m b e r t h i s o n e t a n k t h a t we b r o u g h t i n — w e b r o u g h t i t i n a b o u t two w e e k s a f t e r I g o t t h e r e — a n d we p u t i t i n s i d e t h e d e p o t , t a k i n g i t o f f t h e s h i p , d r o p i t i n t h e d e p o t . When I l e f t , t h e t a n k w a s s i t t i n g i n s i d e t h e d e p o t , t h e same t a n k . T h a t ' s why I c a l l i t t h e m o n u m e n t ; t h e monument t o l e a d e r s h i p b e c a u s e t h a t w a s a w a s t e . The t a n k s a t t h e r e . When I l e f t , t h e t a n k w a s g e t t i n g r u s t y , w a s a l l r u s t y a l r e a d y . I t w a s n ' t e v e n u s e d . Even s o d a s — w e u n l o a d e d f u l l s h i p s [ t h a t ] came i n w i t h s o d a s — s t r a w b e r r y , a n y k i n d o f s o d a , a n d we t o o k i t t o t h e d e p o t , a n d t h e t h i n g w o u l d s i t t h e r e i n t h e d e p o t a n d w o u l d n ' t r o t a t e o f f a s f a s t , a n d t h e c a n s a l l p o p p e d a f t e r a w h i l e b e c a u s e i t s i t s o u t t h e r e i n t h e r a i n . A l o t o f s t u f f w a s t e d .

SF : Any o t h e r k i n d o f a r m a m e n t s l i k e g u n s a n d so f o r t h ?

BN: W e l l , a l l o f t h o s e s t u f f w a s s t o r e d . When you come t o w e a p o n s l i k e t h a t , t h e y s t o r e d u n d e r c o v e r a n d t h e n t h e y ' r e a l l l o c k e d u p b e c a u s e t h e y h a d t o h a v e a c c o u n t a b i l i t y for t h a t . B u t t a n k s , you c a n n o t p u t [ i n t o ] a d r a w e r a n d l o c k i t , y o u k n o w , s i t t i n g o u t t h e r e o p e n . A l o t o f t r u c k s t o o , j u s t s a t t h e r e , a n d j u s t r u s t e d a w a y , e i t h e r b y some g u y s who f o r g o t a b o u t t h e t r u c k , o r t h e g u y g o t r o t a t e d o u t o r t h e g u y g o t k i l l e d , a n d so n o b o d y w a s a s k i n g " W h e r e ' s my t r u c k ? "

SF : D i d y o u h a p p e n t o s e e a n y k i n d o f w e a p o n s u p p l i e s t h a t w a s u s e d b y t h e e n e m i e s , b y t h e c o m m u n i s t s ?

BN: Y e s , g u y s w e r e b r i n g i n g s o u v e n i r s , you k n o w , l i k e o u r u n i t w a s r i g h t n e x t t o t h e t r u c k i n g u n i t , a n d t h e t r u c k i n g u n i t ' s r e s p o n s i b l i t y w a s t o s h i p t h e s e e q u i p m e n t s u p N o r t h . T h e y w o u l d come b a c k w i t h R u s s i a n w e a p o n s , a l l t h e s e c o m m u n i s t - t y p e w e a p o n s . T h i s i s s t u f f t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o t a k e home a s s o u v e n i r s .

SF : Were t h e s e w e a p o n s s i m i l a r t o t h e U . S . ?

13

BN: No , t h a t ' s s o m e t h i n g t h a t w a s made i n R u s s i a , a r i f l e , m o s t o f i t w a s r i f l e s , d i f f e r e n t t y p e s o f R u s s i a n - m a d e r i f l e s .

SF : Were t h e r e a n y s p e c i a l r e s t r i c t i o n s o n t h e s u p p l i e s t h a t you w e r e l o a d i n g a n d u n l o a d i n g — a n y k i n d o f s u p p l y p r o c e d u r e s , o r [ w a s ] e v e r y t h i n g j u s t g o i n g o p e n l y ?

BN: W e l l , m o s t o f t h e s h i p s t h a t u n l o a d e d w a s g e n e r a l c a r g o . I t h a d a n y t h i n g i n i t . I t h a d p l y w o o d s t o b u i l d a h o u s e , o r a n y t h i n g , b o b b y - p i n s , j a c k e t s . The o n l y s p e c i a l t y p e o f s h i p s t h a t we h a v e t o u n l o a d w a s t h e o i l t a n k e r s t h a t came i n . We h o o k e d [ t h e t a n k e r ] u p , a n d we h a d t o — t h e o i l h a d t o b e — h a d t o go o v e r a m o u n t a i n t o t h e o t h e r s i d e t o k e e p i t p r o t e c t e d , a s f a r a s p o s s i b l e f rom t h e e n e m y . And a m m u n i t i o n s h i p s come i n — n o w y o u g o i n g t o u s e s p e c i a l c a r e u n l o a d i n g b e c a u s e you g o t t o k e e p t h e f u s e away f rom t h e a c t u a l bomb i t s e l f .

SF : I ' m t a l k i n g a b o u t i n v e n t o r y ; w e r e y o u g u y s t a k i n g some s o r t o f i n v e n t o r y o f w h a t you w e r e d o i n g ?

BN: Y e s , t h a t w a s my r e s p o n s i b l i t y . I w a s c a r g o c h e c k e r a t f i r s t . When t h e s h i p s came o f f , you h a v e t o b e a c c o u n t a b l e f o r w h a t i t w a s . T h e y s e n t you a m a n i f e s t , t e l l s y o u w h a t ' s o n t h e s h i p , w h e r e ' s i t l o c a t e d , a n d a s f a r a s t h e y ' r e c o n c e r n e d , t h e t h i n g w a s s t o r e d a n d i t ' s n o t p i l f e r e d . T h e n w h e n t h e t r u c k s c o m e , we t a k e i t o f f ; w e ' r e c h e c k i n g i t o u t t o make s u r e e v e r y t h i n g i s o k a y b e f o r e we s h i p i t , [We] w a i t f o r t h e t r u c k s [ t o ] t a k e o f f o r [ t o b e s u r e ] w e ' r e n o t u n l o a d i n g a n y d a m a g e d [ g o o d s ] .

A l o t o f t i m e s a l o t o f t h i n g s g o t s t o l e n . F o u r o r f i v e c a s e s o f t e l e v i s i o n s w a s s t o l e n — i n Camranh B a y , t h e y h a d a b i g c o m m i s s a r y w h e r e a p e r s o n c o u l d go i n t h e r e a n d b u y a t e l e v i s i o n s e t way c h e a p e r t h a n y o u c a n do b a c k h o m e . I h a v e t o s a y t h a t i n o u r own u n i t , t h e t h i n g s g o t s t o l e n ; we l e a v e t h e TV o r two o r t h r e e T V s , t h i n g s w a s p i c k e d u p w i t h a d u m p - t r u c k , t h r o w a l l t h e g o o d s o n i t a n d t h e t r u c k d r o v e o f f . So t h e r e ' s a l o t o f s t e a l i n g g o i n g o n . Even t h e V i e t n a m e s e a f t e r a w h i l e s t a r t e d s t e a l i n g . Even t h o u g h you g e t c h e c k e d , t h e y p a i d o f f some MP a n d MP j u s t t u r n t h e o t h e r w a y , a n d t h e y w a l k e d o f f w i t h t h e t e l e v i s i o n s e t s , r a d i o s .

SF : I know t h a t t h e V i e t n a m War l a s t e d f o r a few y e a r s . B u t d u r i n g t h e p e r i o d o f t i m e y o u s e r v e d i n V i e t n a m , d i d you f e e l t h a t t h e w a r w a s o r w a s n o t g o i n g t o e n d ?

BN: W e l l , my o p i n i o n o f t h e w a r w a s a w a s t e o f o u r money b e c a u s e A m e r i c a w a s n o t a c t u a l l y i n a w a r . You k n o w , t h e i n f a n t r y men w a s l i k e a " s i t t i n g d u c k " . T h e r e w a s no b i g p u s h o r b i g a s s a u l t o n t h e e n e m y . T h e r e w a s a l i t t l e b a t t l e h e r e a n d t h e r e . And t h e A m e r i c a n - - ! d o n ' t t h i n k we a r e e v e n i n a w a r . You h a v e t o w a i t for s o m e b o d y t o s h o o t a t y o u , t h e n

1 4

y o u s h o t b a c k a t h i m , o r y o u w e n t i n t o t h e j u n g l e t o c h a s e h i m b a c k . I t w a s n ' t l i k e , " O . K . , I ' m g o i n g t o s t o p t h i s a r e a a n d c l e a r o u t a n y t h i n g t h a t w a s i n t h e w a y " , i t w a s n ' t l i k e t h a t . So a l l t h e A m e r i c a n s t h a t w e n t t h r o u g h t h e r e , I t h i n k , t h e y f e e l t h a t i t w a s a w a s t e o f o u r t i m e . To m e , I l o o k a t i t a s a v o i d i n my l i f e . I , you know— e i g h t e e n m o n t h s o f — I c o u l d h a v e g o n e w i t h o u t t h e e x p e r i e n c e . I c o u l d h a v e b e e n d o i n g s o m e t h i n g e l s e ,

SF : I t ' s g o o d y o u h a v e t h e e x p e r i e n c e , b u t when y o u — I ' m s u r e t h a t t h e r e ' s t i m e s when you d i s c u s s t h e w a r w i t h y o u r p e e r s , o r t h e p e o p l e t h a t y o u w e r e w o r k i n g w i t h — a n d how do t h e y f e e l a b o u t t h e f i g h t i n g ?

BN: W e l l , t h e same t h i n g . E v e r y b o d y f e l t i t w a s a w a s t e o f t i m e . The w h o l e u n i t — i t ' s j u s t t h a t we w e r e t r y i n g t o b e o b e d i e n t b y f o l l o w i n g o r d e r s a n d we w e r e i n t h e m i l i t a r y a n d [ w h e n ] t h e P r e s i d e n t s a y s t o go o v e r t h e r e a n d when we w e r e t h e r e — w e w e r e t r y i n g t o do o u r r e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s . I t w a s

[ 3 0 0 ] k i n d o f d e p r e s s i n g b u t we f e l t a n o b l i g a t i o n t o t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s t o go o v e r t h e r e . T h a t ' s b a s i c a l l y why e v e r y b o d y w a s t h e r e . I t ' s d e p r e s s i n g ; you s e e g u y s g o i n g t o Sweden , a n d t a k i n g o f f , b u r n i n g t h e d r a f t - c a r d s a n d when you

w a t c h t h e news t h e r e ' s t h e w h o l e b u n c h o f p e o p l e p r o t e s t i n g t h e w a r b a c k h o m e . I t w a s m o r e d e p r e s s i n g w h e n we came o f f t h e a i r p l a n e b a c k home i n S e a t t l e , a n d when I w a s coming home a f t e r my e i g h t e e n t h m o n t h — I w a s com ing home f o r a t h i r t y - d a y l e a v e b e f o r e I w e n t t o E u r o p e — t h o s e g u y s s p i t o n y o u . I [ w a s ] w a l k i n g home i n my u n i f o r m , w i t h ray s u i t c a s e , a n d I ' m f e e l i n g g o o d . I ' m home a n d t h e g u y w a l k s b y you a n d h e s p i t s o n y o u , a n d h e s a y s , " W a r - m o n g e r " , a n d h e c a l l s y o u some o t h e r n a m e s . So you know t h a t w a s d e p r e s s i n g .

SF : I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t i t w a s t h e m o s t u n p o p u l a r w a r i n t h e h i s t o r y o f t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s . And i t w a s a l s o a n u n d e c l a r e d w a r . Bu t s i n c e y o u w e r e t h e r e , y o u r e x p e r i e n c e o f t h e w a r w a s m o r e v a l u a b l e t h a n t h e u n p o p u l a r i t y h e r e .

BN: So , t h a t w a s t h e d i s c o u r a g i n g p a r t when y o u came h o m e , a n d [ p e o p l e t h o u g h t y o u ] w e n t t o V i e t n a m ; y o u e n j o y i t — i t ' s l i k e you w a n t e d t o go o v e r t h e r e . P e o p l e made i t s o u n d l i k e , "Oh, you w e n t o v e r t h e r e , you l i k e i t , you e n j o y i t " , t h a t t y p e o f t h i n g , l i k e w a r - m o n g e r a n d a l l t h i s k i n d o f t h i n g , y o u ' v e b e e n c a l l [ e d ] e v e r y name i n t h e b o o k . I t w a s more d e p r e s s i n g t o o , when I g o t t r a n s f e r r e d t o E u r o p e a f t e r my t i m e o v e r t h e r e , a n d I t o u r e d E u r o p e a n d I e n d e d u p i n Sweden . I w e n t t o Sweden , a n d g e t a l l t h e s e A m e r i c a n g u y s u p t h e r e ,

SF : T h o s e who w e r e s e r v i n g i n t h e w a r ?

BN: No, t h e s e g u y s who a r e t h e d r a f t d o d g e r s . T h e y b u r n t h e i r c a r d a n d t h e y w e n t o v e r t h e r e , a n d d e n o u n c e d t h e i r c i t i z e n s h i p i n t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s i n p r o t e s t o f t h e w a r . Had g u y s g o i n g t o C a n a d a , t h e g u y s who d i d n ' t h a v e t h e money t o

15

go t o Sweden b e c a u s e Sweden w a s o f f e r i n g a s y l u m t o t h e s e g u y s . The t h i n g t h a t made me f e e l g o o d w a s h e r e ' s t h e s e g u y s b e g g i n g f o r money o n t h e s i d e o f t h e s t r e e t , p l a y i n g g u i t a r s . . .

SF : A r e y o u r e f e r r i n g t o V i e t n a m e s e ?

BN: No, I ' m t a l k i n g a b o u t A m e r i c a n s . A m e r i c a n s , young g u y s t h a t a v o i d e d t h e d r a f t , w a s p r o t e s t i n g t h e w a r ; t h e y w e r e l i v i n g i n Sweden . At t h a t t i m e t h e y c o u l d n ' t come h o m e . So a l l t h e s e g u y s w e r e s t a n d i n g i n t h e s t r e e t . B e c a u s e o f my e x p e r i e n c e , c o m i n g home i n W a s h i n g t o n a n d g e t t i n g s p i t o n , s o when I w e n t t o E u r o p e a n d I w a s a b o u t r e a d y t o t a k e l e a v e t o go t o u r E u r o p e b y m y s e l f , I l e t my h a i r g r o w l o n g , l e t my commanding o f f i c e r know t h a t , y o u k n o w , I ' m g o i n g t o l e t my h a i r g r o w l o n g a n d I w e n t w i t h t h e t e n n i s s h o e s . So I l o o k l i k e o n e o f t h e y o u n g t o u r i s t t h a t w a s t o u r i n g E u r o p e . T h e n I w e n t u p t o Sweden, a n d t h a t ' s when I b u m p e d i n t o a l o t o f t h e s e g u y s . F o r t u n a t e l y , I b u m p e d i n t o two g u y s f rom H a w a i i , two J a p a n e s e g u y s t h a t p r o t e s t e d t h e w a r . They d i d n ' t h a v e a n y i d e a I w a s i n t h e m i l i t a r y b e c a u s e I w a s c a r r y i n g a p a s s p o r t . I h a d p i c k e d u p a p a s s p o r t b e f o r e I w e n t o v e r t h e r e b e c a u s e I w a n t e d t o s e e w h a t t h e s e g u y s w e r e a c t u a l l y d o i n g . T h a t ' s why I p a i d my w a y u p t o Sweden a n d t h e n t h e y w a n t e d t o come h o m e . T h e y w a n t e d t o come h o m e , b u t c a n n o t . So t h a t ' s w h a t made me f e e l g o o d ; I h a d p u t i n my t i m e , so y o u s t a y h e r e a n d s u f f e r i n y o u r own l i t t l e p r i s o n o v e r h e r e a s f a r a s I w a s c o n c e r n e d . But o t h e r t h a n t h a t , t h e V i e t n a m v e t e r a n w a s n e v e r r e c o g n i z e d a s — y o u k n o w , t h e y a l w a y s s e e p i c t u r e s o f t h e F i r s t W o r l d War g u y s coming h o m e , t h e t i c k e r t a p e , a n d a l l t h i s s t u f f , a n d t h e b a n d a n d e v e r y t h i n g — b u t V i e t n a m v e t e r a n , n o t h i n g w a s s a i d a b o u t a n y t h i n g ,

SF : Now, i t ' s a m a z i n g t h a t i n t h e 8 0 ' s , f rom t h e l a t e 8 0 ' s , w e ' v e s e e n m o v i e s a b o u t t h e V i e t n a m War a l l o v e r t h e p l a c e s . And I w a s k i n d o f w o n d e r i n g i f t h o s e m o v i e s h a v e a n y r e l a t i o n o r q u a l i t y i n f o r m a t i o n a b o u t t h e w a r t h a t you w e r e s e r v i n g ?

BN: A m o v i e i s a m o v i e . You g e t a l l t h e s e c r i t i c s t a l k i n g a b o u t Rambo. He n e v e r w e n t t o V i e t n a m a n d a l l t h i s k i n d o f s t u f f , b u t f o r t h e a v e r a g e V i e t n a m , f o r me a n y w a y , I f e l t g o o d w a t c h i n g t h e m o v i e b e c a u s e we w e n t b a c k , h e w e n t b a c k t h e r e a n d won t h e w a r , y o u k n o w , so we a c c o m p l i s h e d f r o m t h e r e . O t h e r t h a n t h a t , i t ' s a m o v i e ; i t ' s a n i c e m o v i e , g u y s r u n n i n g a r o u n d , b i g m u s c l e s a n d s h o o t i n g o u t t h e p l a c e . B u t p e r s o n a l l y , a n d t h e few g u y s t h a t I know t h a t l i v e i n L a i e t h a t w e n t t o s e e t h e m o v i e , t h e y came o u t f e e l i n g g o o d t h a t we h a v e won t h e w a r . O t h e r t h a n t h a t , t h e y ' r e w a s t i n g o u r t i m e , w a i t i n g f o r s o m e b o d y t o s h o o t u s b e f o r e we s h o o t b a c k . So t h a t ' s my f e e l i n g a b o u t t h e w h o l e t h i n g . A c t u a l l y , p e r s o n a l l y , t h e w h o l e t h i n g w a s a w a s t e o f t i m e , a w a s t e o f money o n t h e p a r t o f t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s , a n d i t w a s k i n d o f i n t e r e s t i n g when CBS, when t h e y w e n t a n d made a s u i t

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w i t h Wes tmore l and , b u t t h e r e ' s a l o t o f s t u f f t h a t , you know, t h a t m i g h t h a v e b e e n p a s s e d b y , b u t I d o n ' t know wha t happened t o t h e t o p o f i t . I j u s t know wha t i s my f e e l i n g i s t h a t somebody sc rewed u p , somebody g o i n g t o pay fo r t h a t mess o v e r t h e r e . Somebody made a wrong d e c i s i o n . I f y o u ' r e g o i n g t o go t o w a r , l e t ' s go t o w a r , i f n o t , go o v e r t h e r e and s i t down.

SF: Are you s a y i n g t h a t when we go t o a w a r , you mean, d e c l a r e a w a r , f i g h t , a s s a u l t , and t h e n f i g h t a n a t u r a l war r a t h e r t h a n j u s t g o i n g t h e r e , l e t t h e e n e m i e s s h o o t u s . . .

BN: And t h e n s h o o t b a c k . I f w e ' r e g o i n g t o h a v e a w a r , l e t ' s go for a w a r , l e t ' s g o . Because I t h i n k , b a s i c a l l y , t h e A m e r i c a n s , f i g h t i n g man when t h e c h i p s a r e down, t h e y a l l p u l l t o g e t h e r . I f t h e r e was a w a r , l e t ' s f i g h t i t . For me, i f t h e r e was a w a r , I would g i v e up my MOS and go a s an i n f a n t r y man. But t o go o u t t h e r e and t r i e d t o d e c i d e w h e t h e r — t i l l I s h o o t a t you t h e n you go back and s h o o t a t me, and t h e n do t h i s t h i n g a g a i n .

SF: W e l l , Mr. N i h i p a l i , t h a n k you v e r y much fo r your t i m e and a l l t h i s i n f o r m a t i o n . I 'm s u r e t h a t t h e s e i n f o r m a t i o n w i l l b e v a l u a b l e n o t o n l y t o s t u d e n t s o f BYU b u t t h e BYU [ O r a l H i s t o r y ] Program i t s e l f . Thank you v e r y much.

[ 3 8 9 ] END OF INTERVIEW

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