Benaim - A Conversation with Dr. Saad Eddin Ibrahim

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The Fletcher School Al Nakhlah Tufts University160 Packard Avenue Medford, MA 02155-7082 USA Tel: +1.617.627.3700

The Fletcher School Online Journal for issues related to Southwest Asia and Islamic Civilization Spring 2006

Interview with Dr. Saad Eddin IbrahimDaniel Benaim

In the weeks leading up to Egypt'sPresidential election, I had the opportunity tointerview Dr. Saad Eddin Ibrahim. Dr. Ibrahim isperhaps Egypt's best-known dissident intellectualand the Founder and Chairman of the Ibn KhaldunCenter for Development Studiesin Cairo, where Iwas a Summer Fellow in 2005. In June 2000, Dr.Ibrahim and two dozen of his associates werearrested and jailed on charges ranging fromdefrauding the European Union to disseminatinginformation harmful to Egypt's interests. After athree-year ordeal during which Dr. Ibrahim (62years old at the time) was sentenced to seven yearsof hard labor--all charges against him weredismissed by Egypt's highest court and he wasreleased from prison in 2003. Sitting in his office ina beautiful Islamic villa in Cairo's Mokattam

Heights, Dr. Ibrahim reflected on the prospects fordemocratization in Egypt and on his unique role inEgyptian politics.

People have said that one of the majorproblems with the United States Middle Eastpolicy is a failure to predict and account forchange. Are the US and Western governmentsready to deal with the possibility of religiousparties taking major roles across the region?

Religious parties have already taken controlin Turkey, and I dont see any reason why theycannot do it here. We are telling policymakers to

be ready. I am telling everybody to get ready,because if we dont open the process to religiousparties, then we will be beholden to the autocrats.And if the autocrats continue, they will be thegreatest help to the theocrats, who are their mirrorimage.

Is democracy in Egypt possible without theMuslim Brotherhood?

No. You cant have democracy without beinginclusive of everybody, so long as people arerespectful of the rules of the game.

One critic worried that you were describingthe Islamists that you wish for, rather than thosethat you see. How would you integrate theMuslim Brotherhood into Egyptian politics whileassuring that they play by the rules of the game?Isnt there a danger that the process would beirreversible?

The Egyptian Constitution includes all kindsof built-in safeguards. I suggested the armed forcesand the constitution serve as the safeguards ofpluralism, of civil government, and of regular olddemocratic aims. Should anyone tamper with

them, Islamists or otherwise, these institutionsshould have the right to interfere and remove thatobstacle or threat.

A Turkish model?

An improved Turkish model. Im suggestingan armed and a civilian institution as guardians.To force things, you need physical force, but youalso need the moral and legal authority of theEgyptian constitutions.

Should civil-military reform, then, take abackseat to other kinds of reform in Egypt?

Some, like Steve Cook, see the militarys role inpolitics as an essential bulwark of authoritarianrule across the Middle East.

Daniel Benaim, Fletcher MALD 2006, is Editor-in-Chiefof al Nakhlah. His writing has appeared in TheInternational Herald Tribune, The Boston Globe,The Nation, The American Prospect Online, and TheNew York Post. Most recently, he was a summer fellowat the Ibn Khaldun Center for Development Studies inCairo.


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They already have a role in politics, but it isde facto. I want to make it explicit, transparent, andhave demarcation lines instead of the diffuseinfluence they have now on the entire political life

through the Presidencyand the intelligenceagencies.

Is the military readyfor a non-militarypresident?

I think they could bemade ready. After all,the top echelon of themilitary have hadWestern training incountries like the UnitedStates, England, andFrance, and they haveseen models of a militaryunder civilian control. Ifit is done with care,without removing theirprivileges, then it ispossible. After all, thatsthe way it was before1952.

Critics of your work have often argued thatEgyptians simply arent interested in democracy.

Well, I dont agree that Egyptians arentinterested. Without polling and scientific methodsto electoral politics, it is very hard for anyone tomake concrete claims about the interest ofEgyptians in democracy or in anything else. Butwe have many proxy indicators--for example a ten-country survey from 1980 indicating that as manyas sixteen percent of Egyptians put democracy astheir highest priority. Thats just one example, andadmittedly its a dated survey, but if some 25 yearsago that many Egyptians indicated this sentiment,then surely more would think so now.

Where does the lack of political freedom fitinto the overall constellation of problems facedby Egyptians today?

Twenty-five years ago, democracy came asfourth or fifth place in terms of what concernspeople, in terms of what was really important topeople. Today, I would assume that social andeconomic issues will still rank very highdomestically. Regionally, the Palestinian questionwill still be number one, likely followed by Iraqand the Sudan in terms of Egyptians concerns.But, by and large, the overwhelming majority of

Egyptians are indeed more concerned about socialand economic issues. For example, they are verymuch interested in the issue of corruption, which isreally beginning to impact their lives. And,whether the level of corruption is accuratelyperceived or exaggerated, it is definitely on theirminds. Nowadays, there is a lot of political

campaigning for the presidency and forparliament, where many of the candidates havefocused on corruption as the number one issue intheir campaigns.

Part of your role in Egyptian politics hasbeen to act as a provocateur, raising difficultquestions and getting under the regimes skin. Doyou take a special pleasure in that?

These roles are usually thrust on people.Rarely do public figures or public intellectualschoose their roles. They may choose their missionor they may know their objective, but as an actor inpublic life, often its a convergence of events,biography, and environment. These threetogether usually determine your position andtrajectory in public life. That is basically what hashappened with me. The fact that I have spent the1960s in America, in the heyday of activismtheantiwar movement, the civil rights movement, thewomens movement, theenvironmentalmovementall of thesegreat movements of the1960s and early 1970swere part of myupbringing and myyouth. And of course Iwas also very activestudent, both in Americanpolitics and in Arabpolitics. I was President ofthe Arab students ofNorth America and theseare roles that, again, Ifound not by design butby the thrust of events and by interest. Being asocial scientist, being young and in America at thetime, I became interested. All of this has much todo with my agenda in Egypt and what I came to behere, both in my own perception and in otherpeoples perception. I dont necessarily try to be aprovocateur. What I do is raise issues that nobodyelse would raise, not to be provocative but to be aconscience for my society, for my country, for mytime. If people consider that to be provocativeand sometimes my family shares this viewIdont. These things come to me veryspontaneously and without design.

I dont necessarily t ryto be a provocateur.

What I do is raise

issues that nobodyelse would raise, not tobe provocative but to

be a conscience for mysociety, for my country

for my time

Religious parties have

already taken control inTurkey, and I dont seeany reason why they

cannot do so in Egypt.We are telling

policymakers to beready. I am telling

everybody to get ready,because if we dont

open the process toreligious parties, thenwe will be beholden to

the autocrats


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You recently withdrew your candidacy forEgyptian president, along with a few otherreform-minded candidates, because you didntconsider it a fair contest. Do such protest boycottsrepresent an effective strategy of opposition?

As a matter of principle Im against boycotts.But if theres a boycott, it has to be active. Youdeclare it, and then you make sure it will achievesomething. Thats what Im trying to do. Iwithdrew, and then I made a case. Even though Iwithdrew and made my case, and others did thesame thing, we are still going to monitor theelections. If there is a low turnout, then that will begrounds for challenging the legitimacy ofwhomever is elected and calling for anotherelection within a year or two.

Across the region, groups are sitting outelections and urging supporters to boycott. Is this

a wise strategy? If so, when? Does it detract fromlong-term political health?

It doesnt help. I likepeople to be engaged.However, if yourengagement is used aswindow-dressing for asham, for a black comedy,then you should declarethat and withdraw.Explain the ploy, and thenwithdraw and monitor.That is an active boycott.It is not withdrawal orretreat or surrender. It isloud. Therefore, I hopethat the people who aregoing to boycott willorganize demonstrationsbefore the elections, as

they did before the May 25threferendum [on multi-candidate Presidential elections].

Do you plan to vote in the Presidentialelection?

Yes, Ill be voting for [recently jailed al-Ghadparty candidate] Dr. Ayman Nour.

Over the years, your relationship with theregime has transformed. At a certain point, youeven advised President Hosni Mubarak, whoseregime later jailed you. What, for you, were thesignposts along the road to becoming a politicaldissident?

Well, you give anybody the benefit of thedoubt. And I did. I had also met with and advisedPresident Sadat, including a trip to his house a fewweeks before his death. I was actually performinga mission abroad for him when he wasassassinated. With Mubarak, I had known himwhen he was Vice

President [1975-1981]through his wife,Suzanne, who was mystudent. She did her M.A.with me. And frequentlyas Vice President, hewould ask for memos andthings to help himunderstand certain issues,which I gladly gave tohim. I was flattered thathe asked, and it was thesame with his wife. Therelationship started on acordial note. I met withhim as Vice Presidentseveral times. I also metwith him soon after he became President. He askedfor new ideas and I was appreciative of what he didinitially. He stabilized the country and defused thesituation, which was then very tense after Sadatsdeath. He restored Egypts relations with itsneighbors, with Arab countries, and with the rest ofthe world. These were all positives.

Then he was challenged by Islamic militants,radical Islamists, and again he asked for help. Heasked me to have a talk show for young people inEgypt. I did that for five years on prime time, rightafter the news. Every night in the early- to mid-1990s we did these talk shows, called TheEnlightenment Programs. Every opportunity Ihad to help, I did so. So long as he was responsive, Iwas gratified. However, after having helped himin his first two Presidential terms, in his thirdcampaign he promised to change things and thendidnt. I began to be critical. When he continued toignore my recommendations, I realized his realmotives.

Was there a single meeting or interaction thatmarked the end of your relationship withPresident Mubarak?

When I wrote an article suggesting that theMuslim Brotherhood be incorporated into thegovernment ministries, that offended him. Andthat was the turning point. He did not appreciatewhat I wrote, even though it was just my opinion.

Part of your strategy of nonviolent protesthas been to mobilize people by evoking and

I don t see red lines. Ispeak my mind against

anything, on anysubject. I will not say

anything I do notbelieve, and anything

believe, Ill express.And in that sense, Idont have any red

lines. It would be aform of surrender

Al though I was wil lingto pay the price myselffor what I was doing, I

regretted that thegovernment made

others pay who were

completely innocent,and who had donenothing except being

my aide, being myassociate


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exposing the ugliest parts of the regime. Even anonviolent mission can provoke a brutal andeven violent reaction. In the case of the IbnKhaldun Center, twenty-seven of your colleagueswent to jail alongside you. Do you feelresponsible?

I feel very responsible. And if theresanything that saddens me about the ordeal that Iand the [Ibn Khaldun] Center went through, it waswhat happened to my family and youngcolleagues. Although I was willing to pay the pricemyself for what I was doing, I regretted that thegovernment made others pay who werecompletely innocent, and who had nothing to doexcept being my aide, being my associate. If wewere in a respectful, law-abiding society, then noneof that would have happened. Many of my 27associates who were jailed, you cant imagine whythe government pronounced them guilty.

Now that you are free, do you feel you haveto moderate yourself? Are there still red lines foryou that you cant cross?

My wife tells people, Saad is a colorblind man.I dont see red lines. I speak my mind againstanything, on any subject. I will not say anything Ido not believe, and anything I believe, Ill express.

And in that sense, I donthave any red lines. Itwould be a form ofsurrender. The Mubarakregime tried to make adeal with me three timeswhile I was in prison. Inreturn for closing mymouth and leaving thecountry, they would haveclosed my file and takenme out of prison. I said, Iwill still speak my mind.Id rather serve the sevenyears than make a deal.And if I am freed, I would

like it to be by a court ruling. So I waited until thecourt ruled. It took three years, but at least it was ahigh court rulingand a ruling on the books ismuch more satisfying to me than any secret deal.

Why does the Mubarak regime see you assuch a threat?

All of the major issues raised that have beenthorns in the side of the regime were started by me.The ones who start something get skinned for it atthe beginning. Many people disavow us, criticizeus, only to discover within six months to a year that

we were right and everyone else was wrong. Thiswas the case with my views on [Arab leaders]grooming their sons [to replace them]. When wetalked about it six years ago, nobody had ever paidattention. Now everyonetalks about it. It was thesame thing with minority

rights in Egypt, the samething with monitoringelections, the same thingwith the call for freedomof political and religiousinformation. These aretaboos. Nobody talksabout these things untilwe do. The regime, ofcourse, is always scared ofwhat we do because theyknow that, in due time,despite the smearing and defamation and attacks,that it will catch up with them. It will become partof the public discourse. And that is a role that Imvery proud of.

What has your time in prison and yourtroubles with the regime taught you about theexperience of living in a semi-authoritarianregime like Egypts, where most people enjoypartial freedom most of the time?

It taught me a great deal about Egyptianintellectuals and pressure from the regime, but italso taught me a lot about myself and my fellowprisoners. I saw firsthand how, at certain times, somany members of the elite ended up in prison.Through them, through the Islamists, I saw twosides of the same thing. I had about three or fourcabinet members with me, people who servedvery closely with Hosni Mubarak, not to mentionthose who had worked for previous presidents.There were two gentlemen who went to militaryacademy with him, two gentlemen, not to mentiona few regional governors. It was quite aneducational experience. It was a field day for me asa sociologist. If there is any consolation to being aprisoner, it is having this human laboratory. Yousee a part of the Egyptian body politic that youcant see outside.

I also learned how easily Egyptianintellectuals could be cowed and intimidated. Outof the thousand or so intellectuals here that reallydeserve to be in that categoryhaving reallyproduced new knowledge and valuableopinionsout of those thousand, who knew mewell, only about 250 spoke up. It started with one,then 50, then 250, in three waves. The other 750were cowed. Some probably took delight in my

It was a field day for meas a sociologist. If

there is any

consolation to being aprisoner, it is having

this human laboratory.You see a part of theEgyptian body politic

that you cant seeoutside

Egyptian intellectuals

are looking f or theperfect martyr. Afriend of mine jokes

that even Jesus Christmight not get the

support o f the Egyptianintelligentsia against

the regime


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predicament, who knows? But that was quiterevealing to me.

And when the same thing happened toothers, I found even more intimidation. That wasthe case with Ayman Nour. I was the only one whodared to speak out in the beginning, and onlywhen I started to campaign for him in Western

capitals did others begin reluctantly to fall in line.Youll find all kinds of excuses for not supportingthis or that, to the point where a friend of ours,[European MP] Emma Bonino, had a famousdiagnosis of the Egyptian intelligentsia: They arelooking for the perfect martyr. Just know that even

martyrs are not perfect. They want a perfectmartyr before they will endorse, support, ordeclare their solidarity. Even Jesus Christshedoubts if he would have the support of theEgyptian intelligentsia against the regime.

The views and opinions expressed in articles are strictlythe authors own, and do not necessarily represent thoseof Al Nakhlah, its Advisory and Editorial Boards, or theProgram for Southwest Asia and Islamic Civilization(SWAIC) at The Fletcher School.

Benaim - A Conversation with Dr. Saad Eddin Ibrahim

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