Ben Greenfield Podcast 72

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Podcast #72 from http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/2009/12/podcast- episode-72-double-interview-super-special- barefoot-running-esssential-fatty-acids/ Introduction: In this podcast episode: barefoot running, essential fatty acids, more on amino acids, ankle injuries and the genotype diet. Ben: That‟s right, podcast listeners. Today‟s episode is a double interview super special. My first featured topic is going to be on barefoot running with a fellow named Tellman Knudsen who I mentioned last week is currently running barefoot across the country. And I called him up and interviewed him live while he was running through Ohio. You‟re going to get to listen to that. We also have an interview with Dr. Cohen from Bioletics. This will be Dr. Cohen‟s third appearance on the show and he‟s going to be talking about the powerful potential of essential fatty acids and how you can actually get those tested, what to do if you‟re deficient and much more. So you‟re not going to want to miss those featured topics. We have just a few brief special announcements today and we also have a Listener Q and A. But before we go on to any of that, I do need to make you aware of a few small changes to the podcast over the next five to six weeks. Basically, I am putting together for any of you triathlon listeners out there a huge side project that‟s going to bring you a bunch of free teleseminars, phone conferences with triathlon coaches, triathlon pros, with authors not just conferences where you sit there and twiddle your thumbs and listen but live Q and A where you‟re going to be asking questions. A huge amount of interaction there. It‟s going to be over at a website called www.rockstartriathlete.com . I‟ll put a link to that in the Shownotes but I want to warn you listeners, that based off the amount of energy that I‟m having to put into bringing those audios to you, this podcast is going to be limited just for the next few weeks to primarily Q and A to answering your questions on fitness, fat loss, nutrition or human performance. So make sure that you follow that link in the Shownotes to see why the podcast is going to be changing so much over the next six weeks. I thank you all for the support that you give, for the rankings in iTunes and for you just listening in. I promise that this podcast is not going

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Transcript of Ben Greenfield Podcast 72

Page 1: Ben Greenfield Podcast 72

Podcast #72 from http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/2009/12/podcast-

episode-72-double-interview-super-special-

barefoot-running-esssential-fatty-acids/

Introduction: In this podcast episode: barefoot running, essential fatty

acids, more on amino acids, ankle injuries and the genotype

diet.

Ben: That‟s right, podcast listeners. Today‟s episode is a double

interview super special. My first featured topic is going to be

on barefoot running with a fellow named Tellman Knudsen

who I mentioned last week is currently running barefoot

across the country. And I called him up and interviewed him

live while he was running through Ohio. You‟re going to get

to listen to that. We also have an interview with Dr. Cohen

from Bioletics. This will be Dr. Cohen‟s third appearance on

the show and he‟s going to be talking about the powerful

potential of essential fatty acids and how you can actually get

those tested, what to do if you‟re deficient and much more.

So you‟re not going to want to miss those featured topics. We

have just a few brief special announcements today and we

also have a Listener Q and A. But before we go on to any of

that, I do need to make you aware of a few small changes to

the podcast over the next five to six weeks. Basically, I am

putting together for any of you triathlon listeners out there a

huge side project that‟s going to bring you a bunch of free

teleseminars, phone conferences with triathlon coaches,

triathlon pros, with authors – not just conferences where you

sit there and twiddle your thumbs and listen but live Q and A

where you‟re going to be asking questions. A huge amount of

interaction there. It‟s going to be over at a website called

www.rockstartriathlete.com. I‟ll put a link to that in the

Shownotes but I want to warn you listeners, that based off

the amount of energy that I‟m having to put into bringing

those audios to you, this podcast is going to be limited – just

for the next few weeks to primarily Q and A – to answering

your questions on fitness, fat loss, nutrition or human

performance. So make sure that you follow that link in the

Shownotes to see why the podcast is going to be changing so

much over the next six weeks. I thank you all for the support

that you give, for the rankings in iTunes and for you just

listening in. I promise that this podcast is not going

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anywhere. Don‟t worry. It‟s just going to be a little bit shorter

over the next few weeks. So with that being said, let‟s go

ahead and move on to this week‟s special announcements.

So this week‟s first question comes to me from Listener Joe,

and Joe says… this is a funny question.

Joe asks: One question that I have not been able to get a straight

answer on is what exactly do bodybuilders do and how

exactly do their diet and workout change to get that paper

thin skin? I would like to at least one time in my life

experience walking around the earth tan and in high

definition. Will you please help me with this?

Ben answers: Well Joe, I did bodybuilding for a couple of years and that

was actually one thing that I was really concerned about –

was that paper think skin, or lines or wrinkles or age spots –

because as most of you are probably aware, body builders

have to spend a lot of time in tanning booths and that causes

a premature aging in the skin. It literally speeds up the aging

process in your skin. So it not only causes your skin to dry

out but it makes your skin lack moisture. You start to flake,

you peel, you wrinkle a lot more. Even little things like you

start to see more wrinkles around your eyes when you smile.

The skin loses a lot of its collagen and kind of becomes loser

whereas those of us who are hydrated and not really dried

out all the time – you‟re going to notice a more moist,

supple… not a stretched out, but a non-wrinkled appearance

to the skin. So tanning beds – long periods of time spent in

the sun – all of that will do that to your skin. Now Joe, I‟ve

been backstage at bodybuilding shows and when you get

close up to these people, it‟s just horrible. Tiny, tiny little

collagen damage wrinkles everywhere. Okay? And it‟s

because of the amount of tanning. Now, some bodybuilders,

and I tried to do this when I was bodybuilding used just a

heavy, heavy amount of tanning lotion. A lot of times there

are little gold flakes in that so the light shimmers off you and

makes you look even more muscular when you get under the

lights or on to stage. But do not crave that paper thin skin.

When you get close, it‟s just – it‟s like a thin, thin ice full of

wrinkles and you don‟t want that on your skin. I would

recommend – if anything, if you want to get that look and

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just see what it looks like – go pick yourself up some

bodybuilding tanning lotion and put it on your body and

you‟ll see how easy it is to actually achieve that same look

with a little bit of a topical application. So, we‟re going to

move on to a question from Listener Scott.

Scott asks: After watching the video you posted on the Master Amino

Pattern, I‟m wondering how sold you were on the product.

There‟s a mention of over 40 tests or clinical trials yet no

links to the information on their website. I would think if

there‟s scientific evidence of effectiveness it would be

plastered on there. if you do believe in it, would you

recommend substituting MAP for whey protein or even your

recipes that include Mt. Capra protein powder?

Ben answers: That‟s a great question, Scott. And as far as the scientific

effectiveness or the research studies, there are links over

there on their website and I also put some links in the

Shownotes to podcast number 71 on the studies that were

done in terms of the nitrogen utilization rate of this MAP.

And for those of you who didn‟t hear that podcast last week,

it‟s a capsule that‟s full of all the essential amino acids that

you need. Now, in terms of substituting MAP for something

like whey protein or protein powder, Scott, what you need to

understand is that this is amino acids, okay? It‟s not calories.

It‟s not sustenance so to speak that‟s going to stick to your

ribs or give you energy to work out. Consider it more along

the lines of like an essential fatty acid or another type of

supplement that you would take, but not as food. So whey

protein, I would consider food. The Mt. Capra protein

powder that you mentioned, I would consider food. This is a

supplement. So, for example when I finish a workout, I‟ll

take 10 of these and an apple so the apple is giving me the

carbohydrate and this is giving me the amino acids that

aren‟t in the apple. But continue to use regular recipes. You

can eat whole food and real food. I‟m not endorsing

switching to capsules or supplements for all your intake. This

just ensures that your body is getting everything that it needs

because if you have a bowl of rice or if you have an apple or if

you have anything that doesn‟t have that complete amino

acid profile in it, you‟re going to miss out on the amino acids

and then also every single food on the face of the planet has a

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lower nitrogen utilization rate than this stuff. So it gets

absorbed a lot better and it‟s just kind of that extra secret

weapon that you can have for recovery, for muscle building

or for enhancing sports performance or decreasing soreness.

Now Scott goes on, he‟s got a second part to his question. He

says…

Scott asks: I recently injured my calf just above the ankle. I believe it‟s a

muscle injury since it feels like a charley horse type of

discomfort or spasm that occurs when I walk on or with

plantar flexion. (And for those of you who hear that term,

that‟s pointing the toes.) I bought an ankle Ace wrap which

made the spasm sensation go away and felt like it allowed my

ankle to relax. I was able to perform an sprint interval

session on the treadmill with minimum discomfort. When

the ankle began hurting, ensuring I was using proper form

seemed to alleviate the pain. I‟d like to be able to continue

exercising but do not want to injure my ankle further. Do you

have any recommendations?

Ben answers: It‟s kind of tough to say, Scott. Ankle sprains go in three

different grades and grade 1 is just kind of that slight amount

of tearing or damage to the tendon or ligament. Grade 2 and

3 are more serious. Sounds like if you were able to run on the

treadmill, this is just kind of a slight amount of inflammation

and if that is the case, just control your inflammation with

one of nature‟s best anti-inflammatories and that‟s ice. I

highly encourage you to stay away from ibuprofen and what

are called non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs that can

cause kidney damage, GI bleeding, and they actually end up

limiting the amount of healing that occurs because they

affect inflammation in a different way than something like

ice does. So I‟d recommend ice. I‟d also recommend that you

go to www.bengreenfieldfitness.com and do a search for

“wolverine.” I wrote an article a few months back called How

To Make Your Body Heal Like Wolverine From X-Men.

Rather than going through that on the podcast, I‟d like you to

go just do a search for “wolverine” at the Ben Greenfield

Fitness website and that will give you even more

recommendations.

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Dave asks: After listening to John Kenny‟s high stroke rate per minute

in your swimming podcast, I realized I have a very poor

stroke rate per minute in comparison. I think my low SPM

(which stands for stroke rate per minute) correlates to my

slow Ironman swim times. My stroke is a stroke and glide

routine. I‟m beginning to realize that I‟m using momentum

with each glide resulting in a slow swim, particularly in open

water. My question is what would be a good course of action

in order to train and develop a faster arm turnover in

freestyle swimming?

Ben answers: That‟s a great question Dave. And it is true that a higher arm

turnover is necessary to go faster in the open water. You can

get away with gliding in a pool but once you start to glide in

the open water, a lot of the turbulent flow slows down that

glide a lot more than what you‟re experiencing in the pool.

Now, developing quicker arm turnover is based on training

your neuromuscular system. Meaning your nerve endings

right there in the muscle to actually fire faster. So it‟s not

about getting stronger. It‟s not about making yourself more

tired. It‟s about getting your mind muscle connection to

actually think faster. So a few different ways you can do that.

One, and this is something I have, it‟s called a Wetronome.

There‟s also something called a swimming metronome. You

could Google “wetronome” or you could go to

www.swimsmooth.com. And the guys over at

www.swimsmooth.com do have that Wetronome. You put it

in your swim cap and it makes a little beeping noise. You can

set it for a turnover and it actually has a chart that shows you

the optimum rate of arm turnover based on how fast of a

swimmer you are. So the Wetronome is a good way to keep

yourself honest and that beep drives you to naturally

improve your turnover. You‟re going to have to practice with

it for a while though. It takes a little while to get used to, to

going with that beep and getting that rhythm and regularity.

The next thing I would recommend is a bungee cord, a

swimming bungee cord, and the way that you use these is

you‟ll tie one end to the diving block on one end of the pool

and then you‟ll swim away from it and it‟s pretty hard. You‟re

going to be really working force and strength in the water

when you swim away from it. But as soon as it starts to pull

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you back, you actually have to have a very fast arm turnover

going back the other way. Now to get your hands on one of

those, if you go to my website on the right side of the page

there‟s a link to www.swimoutlet.com. And if you click on

that link, it‟ll take you to Swim Outlet and you can find

bungee cords under the training aids option over there. And

then the final recommendation in addition to the

Wetronome and swimming resistant cord would be actual

spring 50, 75, even 25 meter repeats. Put it into your

program on a weekly basis. I know a lot of Ironman and

distance triathletes get real stuck on the 200s and the 300s

and the 500s and maybe swimming for a half hour during

lunch without stopping. The very fast sprint style repeats are

not only going to give you better bang for your buck in terms

of the time that you spend in the water, but they‟ll also teach

you how to turn over more quickly. So I highly recommend

doing that as well. Hopefully that helps Dave, and great

question.

Matt asks: I saw a naturopathic doc yesterday and the recommended

that I start the genotype diet as it may help my stomach

issues. I‟m not sure about this and know nothing about it. I

was curious if you came across it. It is by the same guy who

started the blood type diet.

Ben answers: The genotype diet – and I went over to the website because I

actually wasn‟t familiar with this diet – but what it does is it‟s

based off the fact that America is one big genetic melting pot

and what works well for one person might not work well for

the other person so what it does is the book teaches you

things like how to take your thumb print, your blood type,

your torso length, your leg length and all these help you build

kind of an idea of what your genetic code is and then there

are diets on that book based on your genetic code. So

anything that‟s customized like that is probably going to give

you a meal plan that maybe causes a little bit less GI distress

if you‟re a person who has food sensitivities or food allergies.

And it can work quite well. The problem with a diet like this

is that – and this is something I run into a lot as a nutritional

consultant – you sometimes end up eating a diet that is so

strange or so different than anyone else around you, it gets

tough especially on family and especially on social situations

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to actually eat the way that your genotype is supposed to eat.

I mean imagine if you had a bunch of your friends over for

dinner and you know, your Japanese friend, they just had to

have sushi and your friend who was of Norwegian descent

just had to have fish and the Pacific Islander insisted that

you use a coconut oil for your cooking – you just have to be

careful if you start on a diet like this to realize that it could

limit you quite a bit socially or if you‟re married sometimes

your wife doesn‟t want to eat because her genetic type is

different than your genetic type. I would say for medical

management, it could be something that you could look into,

but just from a social perspective, you have to be careful with

these kinds of diets. I like a diet and use a diet for my clients

that tends to be a little bit more flexible than something like

this. But great question, Matt.

Now we‟re going to go ahead and move into the featured

topics for today. First interview is going to be with Tellman

Knudsen on barefoot running, and then we‟re going to move

on to a essential fatty acids with Dr. Rick Cohen. And

remember if you have a question, just email

[email protected] or call 8772099439.

Tellman Knudson: This is Tellman.

Ben: Hi Tellman, this is Ben Greenfield calling. Are you running

right now?

Tellman Knudson: Hold on. Hold on. One second. Alright, Ben are you there.

Ben: I‟m here Tellman. Where are you running right now?

Tellman Knudson: I‟m in Fly. That‟s FLY. Yep, I said it, I‟m in Fly, Ohio. It‟s

snowing.

Ben: It‟s snowing and you‟re running in your bare feet right now?

Tellman Knudson: Sure am.

Ben: Wow. Tellman, I get tons of questions from my listeners

about what barefoot running is actually like and you are

probably one of the most knowledgeable guys on what it

actually feels like. So right now, running in the snow, what

do your feet feel like?

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Tellman Knudson: Well, let me clarify. I‟m not running in the snow. It‟s snowing

on and off. But there is no accumulation yet. However, how

does it feel? At the moment, one gets worried about the cold

and the reality is that your feet get pretty warm when you

run in shoes anyway. When you run barefoot, you get really

great circulation. And the soles of your feet definitely get

much denser and tougher. So really, when you get cold and

you just start to get a little numb… so it‟s not really

uncomfortable. That‟s kind of how… like when you‟re in the

middle of a snowball fight with bare hands. So you can

totally do it, but it‟s not… most everybody can imagine

themselves reaching down into a pile of snow making a

snowball and throwing it at somebody a few times… so that‟s

kind of what it feels like except because your circulation is so

good and because your feet constantly are coming off the

ground anyway… it doesn‟t really soak up the… it doesn‟t

soak the body heat out of you so you don‟t really get cold.

Ben: In your journey so far Tellman, what‟s the longest you‟ve run

in your bare feet?

Tellman Knudson: So far a full marathon.

Ben: Wow. And in terms of the surfaces are there any particular

surfaces that you think are best for bare feet or that feel most

natural?

Tellman Knudson: Well, I mean… if you‟re talking about what I would prefer to

run on if I have the choice, I would say I really like a nice dirt

trail without a lot of rocks. That certainly feels the most

natural. I like a dirt trail where I can see everything on the

trail. You know? There was one that has a lot of leaf

coverage, or something like that. But running across the

country barefoot, you don‟t get the opportunity to run on a

lot of that awesome trails. It‟s mostly all on the white line

and when you‟re running a lot of distance every day, the

white line is a very useful tool. So right now I‟m running the

white line like a freaking (inaudible). I feel like I‟m in Tron

running barefoot.

Ben: And are you on a highway right now?

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Tellman Knudson: Right now, I‟m on – you can‟t run on interstates legally and

you can‟t run on divided highways. So I‟m on a road that has

two lanes total. One eastbound, one westbound. And you

know, not too much traffic. Kind of just running through

town.

Ben: Have you ever worn, Tellman, the barefoot running shoes or

any type of real minimalist running shoes? Are those

different than running barefoot?

Tellman Knudson: Totally different than running barefoot. I know a lot of

people consider themselves barefoot runners who run in five

fingers and I appreciate that it is much, much better to run in

something like five fingers than in traditional running shoes

and I will applaud anyone who‟s using that footwear because

you have to completely learn how to run all over again.

However, running across the United States of America, while

wearing five fingers would not be nearly as difficult as

running with nothing on your feet. Even five fingers don‟t

wear through like skin does.

Ben: Now what type of injuries have you sustained on your feet

since you began, Tellman?

Tellman Knudson: So far, only one to speak of. And it was an overuse injury

because I scaled up to a marathon a day a little bit faster than

the… (inaudible) heel. So I ended up getting deep heel

contusions. Deep heel contusions basically are…f or me

anyway, they‟re inside my heel. So think about getting

blisters inside of your feet, not on the outside. And those

blisters are just kind of hanging out and getting worse and

worse as they slowly rise to the surface where the closer they

get to the surface, the softer your heel becomes versus

normally when you get a blister, you get it and that‟s when

it‟s the softest. Whereas the ones that I got, because they

were on the inside and they slowly rose to the surface… they

were so bad when they were deep and they got worse as they

moved out further because every time I would hit a rock in

the dead center of my heel, they‟d basically sink into my foot

which was very, very pleasant. So I just came off that. Taking

a few weeks off to let that heal up. The doctor‟s orders. And

now, at the moment I‟m running three miles today because I

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have to run three miles every day for a week then I‟m allowed

to ramp it up to four miles and assuming my heels don‟t

break down again, I‟ll be able to begin the ramp up process

again up a little bit higher and hopefully get back up to a

marathon plus everyday here in short order. That‟s what I‟m

hoping for.

Ben: Amazing. Now Tellman, what‟s your top piece of advice to

the listener who wants to start barefoot running?

Tellman Knudson: Start today. Run five minutes barefoot. Just do it as a warm-

up. Slow down to 10 to 12 minute miles even if you could run

faster. Just slow down to 10 to 12 minute miles because –

don‟t do any more than five minutes a day for the first week.

Because first thing is, you‟re going to put a lot more weight

on your lower calf muscles and if you overdo that, it‟ll take

you out of running for a couple of weeks. A lot of people go

out the first time and do 3 to 5 miles because they can and it

puts them out for 2 weeks and then they never want to try it

again. So 5 minutes at a time for the first week. Then bump it

up to about 10 minutes, assuming you‟re feeling good and it‟s

not chewing your feet too bad. Then slowly bump it up to 15

minutes. I did it in about 5 minute increments to build up.

And I was running 5, 6 days a week.

Ben: Wow. Well Tellman, for people who want to learn more, your

website is www.runtellmanrun.com.

Tellman Knudson: Yeah, if you want to learn more about the run across America,

www.runtellmanrun.com. If you want to learn more about

running barefoot, you can go to www.howtorunbarefoot.com.

Ben: Fantastic. Alright, well I‟ll put a link to both those in the

Shownotes and I‟ll let you get back to your run. Thanks for

joining us today, Tellman.

Tellman Knudson: Thank you guys. I‟ll talk to you soon.

Ben: Alright, bye.

Hey podcast listeners, this is Ben Greenfield and I have back

on the line by popular request Dr. Rick Cohen from Bioletics

and in the past, Dr. Cohen has talked to us about the six key

internal performance factors and we had that initial

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interview with him where he went into great detail about

how you could enhance your health and performance using

those factors and I personally ended up going through that

full range of testing with Bioletics for everything from

hormones to vitamin D to minerals. And now I‟ve got Dr.

Cohen back on the line because he has added to his

recommendations for people to actually look at, something

called an EFA test. And so, without further ado, Dr. Cohen,

I‟m going to thank you for coming on the line and just have

you jump right into it and tell me what this EFA test is all

about. What EFAs are and why you‟ve added them to your

recommendations for internal performance factors.

Dr. Richard Cohen: Great. Thanks Ben. Yeah, as essential fats are sort of one of

my favorite subjects perhaps when I was… in the low fat era,

I guess that was in the 90s, low fat?

Ben: Yeah I think. 90s, 80s. Yeah.

Dr. Richard Cohen: Well probably early 90s. It was such a misconstrued idea of

eliminating fats and we‟re really starting to learn how

important fats are to our body and fats in their natural state.

And there are some neat stories which I‟ll share with you

which give you a better understanding of fats and their

structure and how metabolically active they are in your

system. You wonder… how we ever thought fats were

harmful to us. This simple… the upshot is if this is all that

people can take from our chat here is fats are extremely

important for our body. They have a variety of different

metabolic activity. They control hormones, they control our

cellular function. They control our genetic code and it‟s not

the fats in of themselves which are damaging, and just like

(inaudible) it‟s the processing of the fats which have led to

problems. It‟s eating unnatural trans fats. Eating too many

(inaudible) fats which we‟ll discuss as well, and that‟s where

the problem comes in. So, we could talk a little bit about

natural fats and sort of getting back to your first question,

with this other factor initially when we came out with the 6

factor and the Bioletic assessment, there wasn‟t a practical

inexpensive at home collection which has been our gold

standard, is trying to find inexpensive assessments that can

be done and collected at home because we‟re trying to give

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power back to the athlete, to take control of your health and

understand how what you‟re eating is affecting you and then

be able to tweak it. So now there is a finger stick test that „s

available similar to the D and the amino acids which red

blood cell determined and use ratios and there are some key

ratios of understanding the types of fats in your body – the

percentage of Omega 3 fats which is a critical component.

And recent research has shown that you really need – it‟s

called an Omega 3 index, and this Omega 3 index was shown

actually in the Framingham study – one of traditional

medicine‟s gold standard of cardiovascular assessment of

risk – when this Omega 3 index, meaning the percentage of

Omega 3 fats in your body is 8 to 10% which is kind of an

ideal, you really probably want to be over 10%, the risk of

cardiovascular disease is less than 90% of what the standard

would be. So this Omega 3 index is probably one of the more

powerful – I probably throw in a vitamin D as well – but

gosh, if you had a normal vitamin D and Omega 3 index of 10,

the risk factors of cardiovascular disease and (inaudible)

disease, which is also something we can touch on is virtually

eliminated. That‟s so powerful.

Ben: So this blood stick test for the listeners, it‟s literally – or the

finger stick test – it‟s literally just a few drops of blood and

that measures the Omega 3 fatty acid level or does it measure

the Omega 6 fatty level?

Dr. Richard Cohen: Actually, how about this. It‟s one drop of blood.

Ben: Oh that‟s nice.

Dr. Richard Cohen: How cool is that? One drop of blood. One drop of blood – it

measures all the essential fats. So it actually measures the

Omega 6 fats, the Omega 3 fats, the mono unsaturated, the

saturated and then you can start looking at some ratios. And

these ratios each have some significance. And how you want

to address that. So I guess you just want to take a couple of

minutes and just discuss Omega 3 and sort of fats for a little

bit. People might like a little primer on that.

Ben: So what are the reasons that someone would actually be

concerned enough about his essential fatty acid levels to

actually want to do a blood stick – give a drop of blood and

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find out what their levels are? What function do these fatty

acids serve within the body and why should someone be

concerned about it?

Dr. Richard Cohen: It‟s actually real important for people to understand – one,

the importance and the different types of fat. Because it can

get kind of confusing, and two, to directly answer that

question is how these fats then play a role into essential fats.

Now essential fatty acids as the name implies and as we

spoke together are similar to essential amino acids. These are

fats that our bodies really can‟t produce or they‟re critical for

life and function and generally are needed to be obtained

through the diet. Essential fats… are critical because they

actually control substances in the body called prostaglandins.

Now these prostaglandins I think are best thought of as little

intracellular hormones and what‟s a hormone? A hormone is

just a communicator. The same way we have endorphin

hormones which means that these are communicators

basically from the brain to organ systems – testosterone,

estrogen, progesterone – these prostaglandins actually

control the cellular function and there are a variety of these

prostaglandins. Some people… there is a multitude of them.

In essence, there are good prostaglandins and well actually

let me rephrase that. There are prostaglandins that have

generally positive function and then there are prostaglandins

which would have negative function. Now in the truer sense

of the word, they‟re all beneficial. Just like ying and yang.

Prostaglandins can affect the way the blood clots. They can

affect the vessel tension. They can affect blood pressure.

They can affect immune response. They can affect how your

brain processes information. Neural activity – you get it.

Prostaglandins… basically they control everything within our

body. Now, when I say good and bad – is it bad that your

body clots when you‟re cut? Absolutely not. Is it bad that we

get a fever when we need to kill a virus? Absolutely not. Is it

bad that we have a response to an injury – inflammation –

by sending in all these immune cells to create healing?

Absolutely not. So, the problem with good and bad is –

they‟re all necessary – it‟s a question of balance. When our

system goes out of balance, the so-called “bad”… these

prostaglandins which control repair, restorative or protective

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mechanisms begin to dominate or basically they‟ll be on or in

a higher presence so that blood clotting, that inflammation,

the pain begins to take control and be there in a much higher

amount. And that‟s not good. And that‟s why it would be

harmful to the system.

Ben: If someone‟s low on essential fatty acids, what type of

symptoms would they be experiencing or what type of things

would they actually be concerned about happening to their

bodies?

Dr. Richard Cohen: Right, ok. So we talked about prostaglandins. And that‟s the

ultimate sort of response for essential fats. So now the

creation of these prostaglandins – and it‟s sort of a fun

pathway from a chemistry point of view. We could spend a

lot of time on this but the essential creation of the pathways

are dependent on these essential fats, okay? And these

essential fats are these Omega 3 and Omega 6 fats and the

Omega 3 fats – basically that‟s just a chemical term that is a

nomenclature based on how long the carbon is and where

that first double bond is within the carbon fat. So Omega 3,

it‟s in the 3 position and Omega 6 is in the 6 position.

Ben: And so for the people who are listening. A fat is just a really

long chain of carbons, right?

Dr. Richard Cohen: Correct. It‟s a long chain of carbons. Exactly. And the chain

of carbons has a particular amount of double bonds. So the

Omega 3 fats has a carbon in the 3 , 6 and 9 position. 3

double bonds. The Omega 6 has it in the 6th carbon and it

has two. 6 and 9. The Omega 3 has an additional one.

Through chemical processes, the Omega 3 is broken down

and added onto actually and becomes a 22 chain carbon and

that‟s EPA and DHA. Those are specifically then converted

into the sort of more beneficial prostaglandins…

Ben: So when you‟re turning over like the label to your fish oil,

your flax oil and you see things like EPA and DHEA, that

actually…

Dr. Richard Cohen: DHA.

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Ben: Oh I‟m sorry, DHA… that actually indicates the presence of

the Omega 3 fatty acids?

Dr. Richard Cohen: Right, okay. So it‟s all that chemistry. EPA is

Eicosapentaenoic acid. Eicosa means 20. Pentaenoic is…

basically it‟s a 20 chain carbon with five double bonds. That‟s

where that comes from. Pretty straightforward but it‟s got a

nice little branding now. EPA. It sounds good. And DHA.

They‟re just short for the chemical constituents of it. But

these five carbon fats are essential to creating these

beneficial prostaglandins. That‟s why the Omega 3s are so

critical for our health. So getting back to what are the

benefits, as we say you‟re creating these prostaglandins

which promote oxygenation of the tissues that are involved

with a proper immune response. That are involved with

brain function. That are involved in proper blood clotting, etc.

The list goes on and on. Basically every function in your body,

when you‟re looking at a beneficial activity relies on the

direction of the cell – genetic code on these healthier

prostaglandins in its most simplistic terms. Now the Omega

6… which have two double bonds, the problem with the

Omega 6 is they have a split. They‟re sort of like a chemical

funnel and the Omega 6s require conversion to something

called GLA which is gamma-linoleic acid, which is found in

large amounts in primrose, oil and borage oil. That‟s why

people may supplement those. And those too are good with a

healthy prostaglandin. It‟s the prostaglandin 3 series. Not

really majorly important but that there‟s a funnel there and

that conversion doesn‟t occur due to stress, diet, trans fats,

nutritional deficiencies. So we don‟t readily convert these

Omega 6s very well further down the chain. And the other

problem is the Omega 6s will be converted to something

called arachidonic acids. And arachidonic acids are further

down the fatty chain. That goes to the prostaglandin 2 series

which has the negative effect. Again, it‟s all a balance. The

issue is when we throw that balance off or when they‟re

deficiencies or blocks into these enzymes which convert that.

We start running into difficulty.

Ben: So it‟s the Omega 6s aren‟t necessarily bad. You just wouldn‟t

want them in a ratio that was too high compared to the

Omega 3s? Is that what you‟re saying?

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Dr. Richard Cohen: Exactly. Omega 3s… that‟s the main point. None of it is bad.

We need arachidonic acid. We need prostaglandin 2 series.

They‟re critical for life. But we don‟t get those now. Or we

don‟t have the balance that our body evolved to exist. So, if

you look at Paleolithic hunter gatherer societies, we ate a

ratio of about 1:1 Omega 6 fats. And if you look at grass,

planktons, algae… they‟re 1:1. 2:1. If you look at grass fed

beef, buffalo, wild range chickens. Although there‟s not a lot

of fat in chicken per se. They‟re always bred out with white

breast. Their ratios are 2:1, somewhere in that range. That‟s

what we need to exist on. That‟s how these complicated

chemical pathways sort of evolved to process fats in that

range. Maybe you know the answer to this, but what do you

think that the ratio of Omega 6 to Omega 3 is today in

America?

Ben: You mean like in our typical diets?

Dr. Richard Cohen: Typical American diet?

Ben: You know, I think I‟ve heard something like I believe it was

50:1 or 100:1 or something like that.

Dr. Richard Cohen: Not that bad. But it‟s 20 plus to 1. Obviously for some people

it‟s worse. Because if you think about how much Omega 3…

where is Omega 3 found? Omega 3 is in fish, cold water fish.

Omega 3 is found in wild grass fed game. Omega 3… small

amounts in walnut. It‟s a higher amount in Chia seeds. Other

than really eating Chia seeds, I think it‟s growing… people

become aware of Chia seeds, flax seeds, but not in the typical

American diet, right?

Ben: Right.

Dr. Richard Cohen: Some pumpkin seeds have Omega 3 in a higher percentage.

Walnuts. But that‟s about it. Some soy. Omega 3 prevalence

unless you‟re eating a lot of fish and meat which is where we

predominantly go these and some of these nuts and seeds…

the majority of people don‟t get any. Whereas modern

industrial food, it‟s reliant on grains. We didn‟t have grains.

We‟re getting corn, flour, soy… canola.

Ben: Those would be higher in the Omega 6s then.

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Dr. Richard Cohen: They‟re all virtually Omega 6. A smaller percentage in

canolas, a small percentage in soy. But the ratios are

extremely high and that‟s what‟s in all the processed foods.

That‟s what‟s in the grains. So the ratio… sometimes I‟m

surprised that the average person is not supplementing with

fish oil. They‟re not getting any Omega 3s at all. So that

ratio… that just causes these prostaglandins to go out of

control in a negative way. It‟s one of the cores of the illnesses

of today‟s society. So it‟s not… you said in the beginning, it‟s

not the types… it‟s not fat. it‟s the balance of fat and it‟s the

processing of fat. So if we look at where did we go wrong? It‟s

too many –way too many of these Omega 6 oils. That‟s a

problem. The other thing, it‟s the processing of the oils.

Which is sort of my favorite understanding or point to

understand of fats… so we talked, the first point is fats are

converted into these prostaglandins, and the Omega 3,

Omega 6 ratio is critical for a healthy balance in

prostaglandins? Okay? The second thing to understand

about fats is they‟re extremely susceptible to damage,

especially these so called healthier fats. The Omega 3 fats.

Nature evolved to exist that way. In order for these healthier

Omega 3 fats with all these double bonds – why have double

bonds? Well double bonds make fat more flexible. And they

need to be in your cellular membranes. So the more flexible

your membrane is, the better tissues – the better nutrients

you‟re able to get into these cells. Also, in colder climates,

you need a fat that would be liquid or flexible and not solid.

So, the colder the climate, the more unsaturated the fat. So

you find, if you think about food supply, the farther north

cold water fish… salmon, cod… they have lots of Omega 3.

Makes sense. Work your way down the chain. Grasses…

northern… where‟s flax grain? Canada? Lots of Omega 3.

Work your way down grasses, again northern plain lands. It

starts to balance out a little more. And working down into

the southern temperature… corn, peanut, canola. Those are

all southern… they require a little bit of a warmer climate

generally. They start to push more of the Omega 6s. As you

go further down into Mediterranean, you get these

monounsaturated fats. Olive oil. Peanut even has some

monounsaturated. Those monounsaturated… we‟ll talk about

those in a second, and then what types of fat do you find in

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the islands? Coconut, palm kernel? They‟re all saturated.

What fats are present in the body in the most part in meat

and animals? Saturated. So, the bodies have evolved that the

higher the temperature, the more fats get saturated. Because

temperature light and oxygen damage fat. And they cause

free radicals. And the body has a way… and animals have a

way of using these saturated fats to actually protect the

unsaturated fats from 98 degrees consistently. If you took a

fat, take fish oil and put it in 98 degrees, in a day it would be

awful. So it‟s the potential damage to fat. That‟s where the

problem occurs. Is not only the Omega 6 but the Omega 6

that are processed in high temperatures. Trans fats are

created from these fats and if you think about Crisco which is

really where this all started… and Crisco stands for

crystallized cotton seed oil. Okay? It was created by… and

here‟s a name we all know. Proctor and Gamble. Proctor and

Gamble in the late 1800s were candle makers. And when

Proctor and Gamble started running into problems, is they

couldn‟t get adequate lard – animal fat, to make the candles.

It was too expensive. So, they hired a German chemist to see

how can we take oil and make it more like lard so we can use

it for candles? It would be cheaper. And they came upon this

process of hydrogenation where you throw an extra

hydrogen into these double bonded fats to make them stable.

So you could burn them and it would be solid again. You

needed a fat which has lots of energy to be solid at room

temperature, so they can have a candle. Well that worked

really well. You took a natural fat – a natural oil, and you sort

of plasticized it and you could burn it. When electricity came

in, people said their market for candles just fell apart. So

they said, wow. Really in essence, what do we have here? It

sort of looks like fat. Why don‟t we sell it as a food. And that‟s

exactly what happened. They took their candle as a food, as

an oil – initially it didn‟t go and it took some really creative

marketing and changing of the colors but in essence Crisco,

which was a candle became a food source. Now initially they

had no idea of the problems. They didn‟t know the molecular

changes that were occurring. Later on it was… they did

understand it but they kept selling it because it was cheap.

That‟s why trans hydrogenated fats are present in all

processed foods. They don‟t go bad and they‟re really, really

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cheap. It‟s the trans fats… the oxygenation, the

hydrogenation, the changing of the molecular structure… it is

extremely unnatural and damaging to our body and those are

the two cruxes of the fat problem. It‟s not fat. it‟s not low fat

is good. There‟s no society that exists with low fat. There is in

this month‟s December National Geographic, there‟s an

article about the Hadzas, which are one of the few remaining

hunter gatherer societies in the world at this point. The

journalist went in to live with them for a few weeks and the

delicacy or the thing they strive for are fats. When they kill a

baboon, it‟s the eyes, it‟s the brain… it doesn‟t sound real

great, but that‟s what they needed because that was the

energy source. It was rich, it was natural and there‟s no

carbohydrates and cheap calories. It was all very valuable.

Fat was the energy source. Fat was the thing that drove the

metabolism in the body. So, this whole anti-fat, low fat,

saturated fat it‟s just honestly a bunch of crap. We can edit

that out I guess but it‟s just absolutely wrong and we really

need to understand healthy fats are beneficial to the body

and they provide… there are all sorts of others… there are

short chain fats that have benefits to the immune system and

they‟re critical for the intestinal tract. There are medium

chain fats which are medium chain triglycerides which are

found in coconut which are used for energy very effectively.

So, this understanding of fats being extremely powerful for

the body is really important. You could go from there.

Ben: Yeah, and I completely agree with what you‟re saying. As a

matter of fact, I wouldn‟t edit that part out. As a matter of

fact, I give most of my clients I work with a T-shirt that says

“My personal trainer told me to eat more fat.” And I‟m sure

that people… I‟ve written a few articles on it and there are

multiple articles out there that talk about what you just

touched on and in going to even greater detail about how

one of the issues with health in America and especially

cardiovascular disease and things of that nature is not an

increased consumption of fats, especially like animal based

fats that you were talking about, because that consumption

has actually gone down as cardiovascular disease has gone

up. But the problem is more along the lines of the other stuff

you touched on. The trans fats and the processed fats and

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even the sugars and the starches and things of that nature.

What I found intriguing was I didn‟t know you could actually

find out what your essential fatty acid levels were. And that‟s

what I found was really interesting. That you‟ve actually

figured out a way to allow people to test their essential fatty

acid levels. Can you talk about how that works and what

somebody does and then if they‟re found to be… I guess it‟d

be deficient, not necessarily high. I don‟t know if you can

have Omega 3 fatty acid levels that are too high. I guess

that‟s another question for you. But how do you do the test?

And then what do you do once you find out the results of the

test? Can you walk me through the process?

Dr. Richard Cohen: Absolutely. Right, so all this understanding is wonderful but

at the end of the day, how does that affect me and how can I

monitor my fatty acids? It‟s such a critical foundation of

health. And by monitoring these and getting these balanced

and getting it right, you‟re going to do a lot for your

performance as well as your well-being. So the test is a single

one blood finger stick. It just gets – you drop your blood, you

prick it with sort of a spring-loaded lance. You really don‟t

feel it at all and you drop that one drop on a sort of gauze like

card and let it dry for about an hour or so and just pop it in

the mail to the lab. The lab sends back a full report of these

essential fats. Or all fats. All fats that are present within the

body and you can break down those fats into the Omega 3,

the Omega 6, some of these Omega 9 fats and saturated fats.

The key things that we‟re looking at are one, the percent of

Omega 3 that are present in your body. That‟s sort of critical,

at least from a cardiovascular immune perspective. And you

want about 10%. Because that‟s what we‟re looking for.

People, hunter gatherers… the highest protected level. If

that‟s deficient, you need more Omega 3 right off the bat. So

you need to supplement more. We can talk about sources but

the other thing we look at is that Omega 6 to Omega 3 ratio.

Typically you want it 2 to 3:1. That‟s sort of again what we‟re

seeing. If that Omega 6 to Omega 3 ratio is too high, we need

to look at your diet and say well, too many nuts. Too many

oils. Too many grains. Where are you getting that? I‟ve seen

people who are too high in Omega 6 and they‟re just eating

too many nuts which isn‟t necessarily… I don‟t have a

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problem with, but it may not be a balance that their body is

optimal with. So you can gauge that. Maybe shift to a more

seed-based and more Chia and more flax and fish oil and so

forth. So that‟s another critical… that Omega 6, Omega 3

ratio is also a very strong marker of the inflammatory status

of the body. That‟s for probably a whole other talk but

inflammation is probably at the root cause of most illnesses.

And when the Omega 6 to Omega 3 ratio is right on, the

likelihood of inflammatory diseases which range from

cardiovascular to diabetes to over frequency of injury all

increase significantly. So that‟s also important. The other key

ratio… you can look at many of them, but this is the third key,

is that arachidonic acid to EPA. While arachidonic acid has

beneficial properties, or you need it, it can flow more to the

inflammatory pathway. So when someone has a high

arachidonic acid, it also suggests that there is an imbalance

in the processing of fats and they may do well with some

primrose or borage oil to bypass that block in the Omega 3 or

the prostaglandin 3 formation. You can actually see the

percent of trans fats. So if someone is high in trans fats,

you‟re busted. You know you‟re eating processed foods, fast

foods at a high amount. There‟s naturally trans fats in dairy.

So if you do eat some yoghurts and dairy products, that will

show up. But if someone‟s running over 1 ½ to 2 percent,

they‟re not doing their body good and you‟re incorporating

too many of these molecularly changed fats into your system.

So, once you get this balance you can start to specifically

make some subtle changes in your diet, or sometimes drastic

changes. You can start adding in more Omega 3 based fats,

reducing Omega 6 based fats and eliminating other fats in

your diet as well. So if we look at – what are the fats… I guess

the corollaries… what are the fats that people really want to

focus on? We talked about grass fed game as much as

possible. The majority. That‟s one other point that‟s sort of

overlooked, is the meats that we eat… meat, game, animal –

the fats in them are not harmful. In fact there‟s a lot of

benefit to them. The commercial fed meat do not have the

natural fatty acid patterns that they always did. What do we

feed cattle? Go watch Food Inc. It‟s corn and grain. So we‟re

fattening up the cattle with insulin producing grain, with

different fats. The fats that we talked about in corn is highly

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Omega 6. The fats in grass which cattle were made to – cows

and buffalo, they eat grass. That‟s more of a balance. So grass

fed natural beef has higher Omega 3 and the saturated fats

are different. The commercially farmed cattle or

commercially farmed salmon do not have the healthier fatty

acid pathways. So you start pushing that Omega 6 balance in

the wrong way. So grass fed wild, game type are always going

to be far, far superior. Same thing – wild salmon.

Unfortunately today, with all the chemicals and pollutants,

it‟s not ideal but wild periodically is still probably okay. At

least in my mind. Then what other grain... Omega 3, we

talked Chia seeds, flax seeds, hemp has some Omega 3.

Pumpkin seeds. You make a blender, I‟ll typically grind up

Chia or flax or hemp in the blender and drink. So those are

going to be your best sources of pure Omega 3 fats with

obviously some fish oil supplements. You can get those and

EPA, DHA obviously are beneficial.

Ben: Now I‟m not a big fan of calorie counting and necessarily

trying to quantify everything in your diet, because I think it

can be a little nonconductive to adherence, but when

somebody does something like this test, can you actually –

based on the results of the test – figure out about how much

of the Omega 3 fatty acids or any of these other sources that

you‟re talking about – you would actually need to bring

yourself into a proper balance? Can you quantify it if you

wanted to so you‟re not shooting in the dark?

Dr. Richard Cohen: Not directly. But you can certainly get a baseline of how

much Omega 3s they may need initially. Depending on what

they‟re experiencing. Everyone‟s pathway to produce

prostaglandins are different. Someone has some

inflammatory conditions or injuries or performance issues,

you might push more Omega 3 type fat initially and then cut

back especially if they were deficient. So that‟s sort of the

beauty of it. If they‟re running at 6%, I certainly would say

they might want to take a couple tablespoons of a

pharmaceutical grade fish oil. Off the top of my head, even

generally 800 mgs EPA, 600 mgs DHA per dose. Initially

pushing that pathway and trying to move it in the other

direction. Then you could taper down as time goes. So it‟s a

little bit of science, but it‟s also a little bit of art. If you push

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the pathway too much to this prostaglandin 1 series, you

could – too much of a good thing is also a problem. Generally

it‟s starting out a certain way, it‟s adding in things and then

eliminating them… just pay attention to your body with that.

Getting rid of the processed fats, dramatically reducing or

eliminating some of the Omega 6 oils. You do need some,

but you can get all you need from nuts and natural grains. All

the other… anything else added in is just throwing you in the

wrong direction in essence, because you‟re just not going to

avoid it at all. In a realistic sense. Don‟t count. You‟re going

to go crazy. That‟s not a realistic way to live and what we

also… and I‟m sure you do… is if people need more calories,

especially if they‟re trying to eliminate calories, you summon

the more neutral fats. Some of the saturated fats such as the

coconut are really a wonderful addition to add in or to cook

in – coconut or ghee, hat‟s the other sort of real life

component, what‟s good to cook with? Actually saturated fats

are better to cook with because they‟re not going to become

damaged and clarified butter or ghee, which has been around

for thousands of years is probably one of the more resilient

types of fats because it doesn‟t have as many of the proteins

that become denatured and it‟s very resilient to heat damage.

So coconut, butter, ghee, olive oil is obviously wonderful to

cook in. Not at a high temperature because it still has some

polyunsaturated in it, but that‟s really it. You don‟t want to

cook in anything else. Because otherwise you‟re just

damaging it.

Ben: Interesting. Well in the limited amount of time that we have

available, because we‟re actually running a little bit short on

time for the interview, as far as people doing this test – is all

the information about it on your website? If I were going to

put that link in the Shownotes? Can people go there and find

out more about the EFA test?

Dr. Richard Cohen: Yeah, we‟ve added that on. We‟ll be adding more specific

information, but you can order that test either individually or

as part of the performance profile. We‟re going to be doing

some shifting. Actually I can talk to you some more

specifically. Sort of breaking down some of the tests and

making them available in some different ways as well. But

that is available in of itself and along with – I probably put

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that and amino acids and vitamin D as your three most

critical as a baseline.

Ben: The essential fatty acids, the amino acids and the vitamin D?

Dr. Richard Cohen: Absolutely. The reason they weren‟t in the profile initially is

twofold. It runs a little more… it‟s a bit more expensive test

than D (inaudible) which actually sort of mentioned it‟s now

available by finger stick. So you can check your iron stores by

finger stick, not by going to a lab. That‟s the first time it‟s

available anywhere in this country commercially. So we‟re

excited to have that one. But with regards to amino acids and

essential fats, the majority of people are either deficient in

some amino acids or not at balance with essential fats.

Generally, if you look at someone – I‟m sure you see, Ben, in

consulting with people if you look at the diet off the bat,

you‟re almost 98% sure they‟re not going to be right on. So

generally what we‟ll sometimes do is have people make the

shift first and then okay, I‟ve made my changes. I‟m adding

more essential fats. I‟m getting rid of the processed fats and

I‟m not eating as many of the Omega 6 oils. Now we‟ll check

it to see what fine tuning I need. Unless someone really

needs the information, it‟s certainly great to know and it‟s a

motivation for a lot of people. When you really sit down and

look at someone‟s diet, even a 3,4,5 day general survey – it‟s

pretty clear that unless they‟re supplementing, unless they‟re

very cognizant of these things that we‟ve talked about – it‟s

unlikely to be in balance to begin with.

Ben: Yeah, absolutely. So you‟re saying get it dialed in and then

look at getting a test to find out really if you‟re going to need

to make even more changes.

Dr. Richard Cohen: Right. So you could go two ways. If you think you‟re dialing…

that‟s the other thing. A lot of people may be listening and

have a lot of this information, then okay, let me see where I

am and how do I fine-tune it? Versus if you‟re way out of

whack, it‟s pretty clear you know. Make the changes first.

And then re-test it. There‟s no major benefit other than just

giving you motivation. Seeing the number. A lot of people go

whoa. 5% Omega 3 index. That‟s not good. And so that would

be… you‟d be at extreme risk for inflammation. Your

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performance is going to suffer. We haven‟t specifically

spoken about that. But these prostaglandins stimulate

hormone production, oxygenation, recovery, reduce

inflammation. So you‟re going to have these balances

corrected, you‟re just going to recover quicker. You‟re going

to have a better hormonal response.

Ben: Interesting. Alright, well what I‟ll do is I‟ll put a link to that

in the Shownotes where people can go find out more about

the test and as far as some of the things that you went over, I

know there‟s a lot of resources out there but are there any

books that you‟re aware of that really go into it? If people

wanted to find out more about the issue with fat especially in

our typical western diet, and the fact that we‟ve a lot of times

got the wrong perspective on it? Are there any books you‟d

point people to, or resources?

Dr. Richard Cohen: Gosh. There are so many. Artemis Simopolous I think has

written a lot on essential fatty acids. Dan Eads writes on

protein powder, a lot on essential fats and – if someone was

concerned about some of the cardiovascular risk, he‟s right

on and he has a wonderful blog and just insightfulness of

information.

Ben: Yeah, I‟ve heard of that book, Fats That Heal, Fats That Kill.

That‟s one I know.

Dr. Richard Cohen: Right, Udo Erasmus is another. Donald Rubin. These are

some of the classic educators with fats. Michael Horavin,

Barry Sears. The whole… The Zone was based on this 30,

40… the ratio doesn‟t exactly – is not perfect. But the whole

principle behind The Zone was this dietary manipulation of

essential fatty acid pathways. Again, that 30, 40, 30 is not

exactly right on – the philosophy and the idea and what

using diets to balance these prostaglandins was the whole

concept behind The Zone.

Ben: Interesting. Well, if you‟re listening here in the audience and

you have other books or resources that you‟d recommend,

definitely leave a comment in the Shownotes to this podcast.

Dr. Cohen, thank you for coming on today and for giving us

more useful information as usual.

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Dr. Richard Cohen: My pleasure. Fats are fun.

Ben: Fats are fun. Alright, maybe that will be the title of this

podcast.

Dr. Richard Cohen: Fats are fun. Yeah.

Ben: Alright, I‟ll talk to you later.

For personal nutrition, fitness or triathlon consulting, supplements, books or DVD’s

from Ben Greenfield, please visit Pacific Elite Fitness at http://www.pacificfit.net