Alisa L Rich - Deposition Dated January 18 2011.

8/2/2019 Alisa L Rich - Deposition Dated January 18 2011.

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Job No. 9626 Alisa Rich

Commission Called Hearing January 18, 2011

Phone: 817-336-3042 [email protected] Fax: 817-335-1203

Merit Court Reporters

2 (Pages 100 to 103)

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1 REQUESTED DOCUMENTS/INFORMATION

2 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE

3 1 Produce a printout of everything in the 169

Lipsky cloud

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2 Provide or make a copy of all the 198

5 documents you provided to Mr. Tashima

as a part of your deposition in this

6 case

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CERTIFIED QUESTIONS/INSTRUCTIONS NOT TO ANSWER

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NO. PAGE/LINE

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None

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1 VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the record.

2 1:21 p.m.

3Q. (BY MR. SIMS) Ms. Rich, have you now told

4 me about all of the water and air sampling that you did

5 on August 10, 2010?

6 A. For August 10th, yes.

7 Q. In connection with that water sampling that

8 you did, did you have all the same tests run on both

9 the outdoor samples and the indoor samples?

10 A. You know, the one exception that I don't

11 know about is whether we ran NORM on both of them. If

12 you want to take a minute, we can look.

13 Q. When you say "NORM," what are you referring

14 to?

15 A. The -- it would be the lab that we used,

16would have been the ARS lab, and it's the naturally

17 occurring radioactive material, which basically

18 identifies beta and gamma radioactivity.

19 Q. Okay. So should there be, in connection

20 with the water sampling that was done, should there

21 be -- for example on the MBAS test, will there be two

22 MBAS test results from the Armstrong Laboratory and two

23 MBAS test results from the Dallas Laboratory?

24 A. Again, I would have to double-check on the

25 Dallas. Yes, there would be separate results for the

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1 indoor as well as the outdoor. They will not be

2 combined on one results. I would have to double-check

3 for the Dallas Lab, and if you would like I can do that

4 real quick, just because I -- I think we did on 10/10

5 because we were having problems with the Dallas Lab --

6 we did. We -- we submitted it for the Dallas Lab on

7 10/10 for the indoor as well as outdoor, for sure.

8 Q. Did you get results from the Dallas Lab on

9 both of those?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. And where are those located in your book?

12 A. They are under section 14.

13 Q. Okay. And what are the results from the

14 Dallas Lab for both the indoor tests and the outdoor

15 tests for the methylene blue active surfactant?

16 A. Mm-hmm. The Dallas Lab reported negative

17 on MBAS, and I believe I ran CTAS as well for the

18 outdoor, and Dallas Lab recorded a negative on the

19 indoor 10/10 -- I'm sorry, 8/10, for the MBAS and CTAS

20 as well.

21 Q. So the Dallas Laboratory found no

22 surfactants in any of the water, either the outdoor or

23 the indoor samples?

24 A. Yes, that's correct.

25 Q. After you took the water and air samples on

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1 August 10, 2010, what did you next do in relation to

2 your work with Mr. Lipsky?

3A. August 11th, we came back and picked up the

4 canister for the air because it's a 24-hour, so we

5 would have to had to retrieve the canister the

6 following day.

7 Q. Okay. When you say "we," who is "we"?

8 A. My technician and I.

9 And then the 26th was the next time that we

10 did any testing at the property, and that would have

11 been again a water test on the 26th of August.

12 Q. When you picked up the sample on August 11,

13 2010, did you have any conversations with Mr. Lipsky or

14 anyone else on that date?

15 A. Oh, yes. Mr. Lipsky.

16Q. What were the nature of your conversations

17 with Mr. Lipsky on August 11, 2010?

18 A. Very similar to the day before, his

19 concerns for whether or not it was safe to bring the

20 family back. I believe he was staying in -- I -- I

21 believe I advised him to stay -- they actually have a

22 pool house instead of the main house, and his -- and we

23 had discussed the fact whether or not he should stay in

24 the main house. Since the -- Shyla wasn't there, my

25 suggestion was that he -- the pool house might be a


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1 good alternative since it had better airflow and I was

2 very concerned of the airflow in that house given the

3 fact of its -- how large it is and the fact it was

4 August, of course, and the air conditioning was going

5 and the doors were shut. So, pollutants have a

6 tendency to increase concentration.

7 Q. Did you have any conversations with

8 Mr. Lipsky or Mrs. Lipsky between August 11, 2010, and

9 August 26, 2010?

10 A. Yes, we've had several conversations. They

11 would call and ask if the results were back. They were

12 very, very concerned about when -- again, Mr. Lipsky, I

13 don't recall speaking with Ms. Lipsky until the 26th of

14 August, I don't recall speaking to her at all.

15 Q. Did Mrs. Lipsky call and want to know when

16 the results were back, or did she -- did she call

17 ever --

18 A. No.

19 Q. -- asking about that?

20 A. No. Ms. Lipsky, again, I have not spoken

21 to her on the phone that I recall except for one time

22 when she asked me to send the results directly to her,

23 but that was after the results had already come back.

24 So she gave me her cell -- her e-mail address so she

25 could be copied at all times. She asked if I would

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1 please copy her at all times for all e-mails,

2 especially the -- obviously the test results.

3And the only thing -- I -- he just called

4 oftentimes and said, "Are the results back? Are the

5 results back?" And it takes two full weeks, it takes

6 10 -- it takes literally 10 working days, which equates

7 to two full business weeks, to get the results back.

8 So he was very, very concerned about how quickly he

9 could assure his family's safety.

10 Q. So from the time you first took samples on

11 August 10, 2010, it was about two weeks before you had

12 any results back?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. Other than Mr. Lipsky calling wanting to

15 know when the results would be back, do you recall any

16other specific content of conversations with him

17 between August 11, 2010, and when you were back out at

18 the house on August 26, 2010?

19 A. Yes, I do remember one conversation. He

20 called to tell me that their hamster had died, and that

21 was very concerning because the hamster was actually in

22 the -- in between two bedrooms of their house, the

23 children's bedrooms, and the hamster was a -- an

24 average -- the hamster was a young hamster, it wasn't

25 an old hamster, but it had just died in its sleep. So

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1 I was very concerned over the fact that they had lost a

2 hamster because high -- high VOCs can actually cause

3 asphyxiation.

4 He -- he informed me of -- I informed him

5 that little rodents like that were a good indicator to

6 issues, so I made the statement that it's a good idea

7 to keep the family away until we had results. That

8 hamster died sometime after -- I believe it was after

9 the 14th of August.

10 Q. Did you tell him you were going to get the

11 hamster, get some kind of autopsy done on the hamster?

12 A. I -- yes, I have an exciting life. Yes, I

13 actually asked him to keep the -- keep the hamster in

14 the refrigerator until I could pick it up. I believe

15 sometime -- I actually called Armstrong Laboratory to

16 ask if they could -- they could autopsy the hamster,

17 and it's very difficult to autopsy the animals and

18 protract any VOCs from them, especially after you froze

19 it. And he actually put it in the freezer, and then I

20 told him, "Take it out of the freezer and put it in the

21 refrigerator," and I believe Ms. Lipsky said, "You get

22 out here and pick this thing up now or it's going in

23 the garbage." So I didn't have an opportunity to

24 retrieve -- retrieve the hamster. So it never had an

25 autopsy performed.

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1 Q. So you don't know why the hamster died?

2 A. No, sir. Mr. Lipsky, I believe, did go to

3the -- either Ms. Lipsky or Mr. Lipsky, I do not

4 remember which, actually went to the pet store to ask,

5 because it wasn't a very old hamster, and they did

6 confirm that it wasn't very old. But, no, I did not

7 autopsy the creature.

8 Q. Between August 11, 2010, and August 26,

9 2010, do you recall any other specific conversations

10 with Mr. Lipsky or Mrs. Lipsky?

11 A. Well, we actually did a test on August 14th

12 of 2010, and that would have been an outdoor air test,

13 I believe. So I would have had a conversation -- no.

14 I'm sorry. My tech actually did that test. I was not

15 there. And I know that he had a conversation with

16Mr. Lipsky, obviously, because he was on premises with

17 him.

18 Q. Okay. So your son did an outdoor air test

19 on August 14, 2010?

20 A. I believe so.

21 Q. And what did he -- what did he test for on

22 August 14, 2010?

23 A. Volatile organic compounds. It was an air

24 test, a 24-hour air test. Yes. It was the 14th.

25 Q. Where were -- where was the canister placed


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1 for the outdoor air test?

2 A. The canister was placed due north of the

3 well, of the water well. Not the -- not the well

4 house, but the water well, exterior of the water barn,

5 the water house, approximately 20 feet.

6 Q. Twenty feet from what?

7 A. The well.

8 Q. And his test was done on August 14, 2010?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. Were there any GPS locations or anything

11 taken of where the canister was placed?

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. And are those --

14 A. I can --

15 Q. Are those in the notebook?

16 A. I actually don't believe they are in the

17 notebook, and I -- I know -- I don't know where they

18 are. I just flipped through the notebook during the

19 break and I didn't see them in here, and they're not

20 on -- we -- I can get -- I can get you the location of

21 them. I believe they are on the pictures, the ones

22 that we're having problems downloading. So he probably

23 has the GPS locations.

24 Q. So do you have actually, do you have

25 photographs in and around the house as well?

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1 A. Well, we have -- we have a few photographs.

2 We do not have a lot of photographs of the property.

3That is with the video that we're having difficulty

4 with. So he's trying to download those current --

5 today, as a matter of fact. So they will be submitted

6 on the thumb drive that we agreed to send you.

7 Q. Have you checked your computer to see if

8 you produced all the e-mails and everything --

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. -- that are called for by the subpoena?

11 A. Yes, sir. Both computers.

12 Q. What -- you have two computers?

13 A. That's correct. We have two computers that

14 we work with. The documents are primarily on my

15 laptop. I -- I have gone through both computers to

16make sure that you have all the documents that we have,

17 as well obviously the e-mails are -- it's irrelevant

18 which computer you use.

19 Q. What are your e-mail accounts?

20 A. Just Wolf Eagle Environmental.

21 Q. Is that the only e-mail address you have?

22 A. We have -- we have a gmail account but

23 it's -- it's a push account. We don't actually send

24 anything out on it, it's just an automatic push for any

25 kind of search that you put out on the Internet. So

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1 Wolf Eagle is the only one that we actually communicate

2 on.

3 Q. Has your son relayed to you any specifics

4 of any conversation he had with Mr. Lipsky on August

5 14, 2010?

6 A. No, not particularly. The only thing that

7 they obviously were doing was setting the canister.

8 Mr. Lipsky had put together a hose that was attached to

9 the main part of the -- the wellhead, gas well -- or,

10 sorry. Water well. Well, it could be called a gas

11 well. But water well. So he had attached a hose to

12 the main wellhead for us to obtain samples easier. He

13 had mentioned that he wanted to take a few more samples

14 after he had done something with the well or something,

15 I don't recall exactly what, but nonetheless he made it

16 a lot easier for us to facilitate any kind of sampling

17 that we needed to do in the future instead of crawling

18 on top of the barrel and nearly falling in.

19 Q. Okay. But on August 14th was the date that

20 you did air -- he went out to do air sampling that day.

21 A. Yes, sir, that is correct.

22 Q. Okay. And on August 14th, did the water

23 well have a hose hooked up to it?

24 A. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

25 Q. Okay. Is that --

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1 A. A green hose.

2 Q. A green hose?

3 A. Yes, sir.4 Q. Okay. And was that a green hose that water

5 would come out of?

6 A. Well, primarily the only thing that came

7 out of that was gas. There was a -- the -- there was

8 very little water coming out of -- by then he was

9 having a lot of difficulty with any kind of pressure in

10 the well, and he had literally gas flowing out of it.

11 Q. Did water ever come out of the green hose

12 that was hooked up to the wellhead on Mr. Lipsky's

13 water well?

14 A. It would spit. Again, it depended on the

15 pressure of the well, of course.

16 Q. When did Mr. Lipsky hook up the green17 garden hose to the water well?

18 A. I'm sorry. I -- sometime between the 11th

19 and the 14th. I don't know exactly when.

20 Q. Do you know where he hooked up this green

21 garden hose, to what portion of the wellhead?

22 A. No, I don't actually. I don't know how to

23 describe it. But it would be the very top portion.

24 No, sir, I -- I can't really say.

25 Q. Do you know if Mr. Lipsky hooked up this


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1 green garden hose to a portion of the water wellhead

2 where water would normally come out?

3 A. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Now, again, I don't

4 know if he actually hooked it up or if he had somebody

5 hook it up. There is a difference, and I honestly

6 don't know which. He might have had his well service

7 hook it up.

8 Q. You just don't know?

9 A. I don't know which -- I don't know exactly

10 who did it, no, I do not, but sometime between the 11th

11 and the 14th we did -- we were able to access the well,

12 the water from the well a lot easier.

13 Q. The water, or gas coming off the well?

14 A. Well, very good question. At the time

15 that -- I believe the 14th when he was out there, I

16 believe it was very heavy in gas. I do not know the --

17I don't know if there was any water that came out at

18 all during that time. I would have to go back to the

19 video. We do have a video at that time that that's the

20 one I am trying to produce for you. So we --

21 Q. Your son wasn't out there collecting water

22 samples on the 14th?

23 A. No, sir, we were doing --

24 Q. He was collecting an air sample.

25 A. That's correct. We were sampling air at

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1 the time.

2 Q. And how close was the green garden hose

3placed to the air canister on the date of sampling?

4 A. Well, again, they would be about 20 feet

5 apart, but they -- the hose wasn't on.

6 Q. Where was the end of the garden hose in

7 relation to the canister on the date that the air

8 sampling was done?

9 A. The hose is only 3 feet long. Maybe a

10 little bit longer than that. Not much. It wasn't a

11 full size hose. It was a ... a partial piece of hose.

12 Q. Did you ever write or communicate with

13 Mr. Lipsky about placing or getting an air sample in

14 close proximity to the garden hose?

15 A. Did I ever write to him about that?

16Q. Yes, ma'am.

17 A. No, he -- I do recall a conversation he

18 said -- he had about that, and I said, "No, no, no, no,

19 no, no. We" -- "we want enough room that" -- "I don't

20 want the" -- "I don't want the well on at any time, I

21 don't want this hose on at any time."

22 And of course, you know, the -- the monitor

23 was far enough away that it fair -- it was fairly

24 irrelevant at that point whether or not there would not

25 have been -- well, how do you say this. There was

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1 already a -- gas flowing out of the well even with the

2 hose hooked up. It was leaking. So even with the hose

3 off we had -- we had plenty of emissions; I certainly

4 didn't need any more coming out of the hose. So he was

5 instructed not to turn the hose on while the -- while

6 the monitor was actually working.

7 Q. So --

8 A. So do I have an e-mail? No, I don't recall

9 an e-mail of any -- of any kind saying do or do not do

10 anything. I don't have one, I could find one, no.

11 Q. I'm not asking you whether you found one.

12 I'm asking you did you ever write him an e-mail?

13 A. I do not recall ever writing in an e-mail

14 anything about that. I remember having a conversation

15 with him, as I have a conversation with all my clients,

16 "Please, we're going to remove the candles. If we are

17 going to do an indoor air test, I want nothing

18 confounding." It would have been the same thing

19 with -- with the hose and the water. Again, you know,

20 "Don't run the hose, don't run the water." We set the

21 canister I believe about 3 o'clock in the afternoon, so

22 it was later on during the day.

23 Q. Did you ever write Mr. Lipsky an e-mail

24 advising him of a strategy to get the EPA involved in

25 his case?

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1 A. Mr. Lipsky -- I don't recall an e-mail, no.

2 Mr. Lipsky actually asked me a question about the EPA.

3I don't recall ever saying, "Hey, you need to call the

4 EPA," no. Did he ask me about that? Yes. Did he ask

5 my opinion? He probably asked my opinion about it.

6 But I don't recall ever producing an e-mail -- well, I

7 know I don't have an e-mail, I will tell you that. I

8 did not find any e-mail other than the ones that I

9 submitted, and I don't recall any -- in the e-mail

10 anything about the EPA, but we did have a conversation

11 about the EPA, yes.

12 Q. And what day did you have a conversation

13 about the EPA?

14 A. I don't recall exactly when. I can tell

15 you I had high concerns for imminent danger. In any

16situation where you have an imminent danger, standard

17 operating protocol is to contact the local authorities,

18 which I believe he contacted the Fire Department at one

19 time, Parker County -- I believe it would be Parker

20 County Fire Department. I know that he notified the

21 EPA emergency, which would be -- again, which is in a

22 situation of imminent danger, which I believe he and

23 his family were in. He most -- I don't know when he

24 contacted the EPA, so I'm assuming he did, I believe he

25 did, given the action of the EPA. But it was nothing


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1 on my initiation of, "Hey, you need to call the EPA,"

2 "Hey, you need to call this and this."

3 Q. You never advised Mr. Lipsky of a strategy

4 of how to get the EPA involved in his case?

5 A. I don't recall ever advising him of a

6 strategy, no. What I have said to him, "EPA emergency

7 number is this," or if he has asked, "Who do I call at

8 EPA," I would say, "Call EPA emergency number." That's

9 all I would know to call.

10 Q. Did you ever advise Mr. Lipsky of a

11 strategy to take air samples, and how to take them, to

12 get the EPA involved in his case?

13 A. No, sir. No, sir.

14 Q. After the air samples were taken on August

15 14th, is the next sampling that was done was on August

16 the 26th?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. And what sampling was done on August 26th?

19 A. That would be water sampling.

20 Q. And what water sampling was taken on August

21 26th?

22 A. I believe I repeated the same indoor test

23 on the 26th. So that would have been in the -- indoor.

24 Indoor water sample. And I'm pretty confident that it

25 was at the bar, as well.

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1 Q. Was -- were any --

2 A. Let me confirm that just a moment.

3Yes. It was at the bar water.

4 Q. Were any outdoor samples taken on the 26th?

5 A. No, sir, I don't recall any outdoor samples

6 at all on the 26th.

7 Q. Why was the in -- why was the indoor

8 samples repeated on the 26th?

9 A. Because he -- I believe he had done

10 something, he had had the well guy out in between the

11 date that we did the sampling on the 10th and the 26th.

12 I believe the well guy came out, but I'm not absolutely

13 sure about that. So he wanted it retested to see if it

14 was -- if it was cleaner, if it was better. The

15 children were starting school shortly and he wanted to

16bring the kids back if it was safe.

17 Q. By the time you did the indoor water

18 sampling on August 26th, had you received the results

19 back at that point in time from the other sampling?

20 A. I would have to check the date on that.

21 From the air testing you are --

22 Q. Air testing and water testing that was done

23 on the 10th and the 14th.

24 A. That was pretty close. Let me double-check

25 the air. It's easier to ascertain.

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1 I may have had the air back. I know that

2 would have been pretty close on the water. The date on

3 one of the reports for the water is the 24th, so I

4 doubt that I would have had that. It would have been

5 very close.

6 Q. Do you recall any specific conversations

7 with Mr. Lipsky on August 26th?

8 A. I believe Ms. Shyla -- that was the first

9 time I met Ms. Shyla, I believe.

10 Q. Is that Mr. Lipsky's wife?

11 A. Yes, Ms. Lipsky.


13 with Mrs. Lipsky on the 26th?

14 A. She -- she did ask several questions in

15 regards to the findings. Again, you know, they're --

16 they come in -- every lab, it comes in different as far

17as the return date. So I don't recall if I had -- I

18 just don't recall how much I had to share with her.

19 They did not get a copy of those for quite some time

20 after that week, I can tell you that.

21 Q. Do you recall any other conversations with

22 Mrs. Lipsky on the 26th?

23 A. I remember her asking a lot about whether

24 or not it was safe to bring the kids back. Of course,

25 they were starting school. Yes. We talked about

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1 opening the house up a lot. I had them open the doors

2 absolutely wide open. The house has been built to be

3very solid. So I told them that what I wanted to see,

4 because, again, this house is large and it is in what I

5 would have -- I would use the term it has "wings,"

6 extended areas where maybe the airflow wasn't as great.

7 I advised them to open the house up and to get the

8 blowers going, and that means the air conditioning

9 running with -- with the doors open, with the windows

10 open to get circulation through the house, because in

11 the win -- in the middle of summertime, as within the

12 middle of wintertime, if you have a concern for

13 stagnant air, we can have volatile organic compounds

14 build up in that environment, and I wanted air flowing.

15 So they had the doors wide open, they had

16the windows open and they were running the air

17 conditioning, and that was my advice to them until we

18 were absolutely confident of what was going on.

19 Q. So it was your understanding that as of

20 August 26th, they were -- they were back in the house

21 at that point and --

22 A. You know --

23 Q. -- opening up the windows and --

24 A. Ms. -- Mrs. Lipsky was at her parents'

25 house for quite a while, so again, we've got a lag


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1 time. I don't recall exactly when she came back. I

2 remember the time being appropriate to the time the

3 children were going to school and she had a concern

4 that she wanted -- obviously, she needed the kids to

5 start on time. So, you know, when exactly she came

6 back, I don't know the date on that. I do remember

7 having conversation with her on that.

8 Q. You believe she came back to live in the

9 house sometime on or about coextensive with the start

10 of school?

11 A. I don't know that they were actually living

12 in the house at that time. They may have been again in

13 the pool house.

14 Q. You just don't know one way or the other?

15 A. I don't know the date, no, sir.


17 with Mr. Lipsky on August 26th, 2010?

18 A. I think that's when we actually looked at

19 the -- the -- the Railroad Commission. Again, he

20 showed me the Railroad Commission or the data that you

21 can get off the Railroad Commission, the -- the maps

22 and things like that. I would -- I asked him a lot of

23 questions about the water quality, if it was still

24 there, I was -- you know, that -- I don't recall

25 anything more than basically what we have covered

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1 before. It would have been the same conversation of

2 what are the test results, what are the test results,

3what did they show, what did they show.

4 And I don't recall anything else other than

5 obtaining an attorney, I probably told him that,

6 because he was very, very upset, and it's always a good

7 idea to have an attorney. So we probably had several

8 conversations about retaining an attorney.

9 Q. Did you give him some names of attorneys to

10 contact?

11 A. I don't believe I gave him any names. I --

12 I believe somewhere along the line Mr. Ritter was

13 introduced to him and it might have been through the

14 association that I talked about before. I don't know.

15 I don't recall. But Mr. Ritter was obviously part of

16the conversation. I believe there was -- there was a

17 couple of other attorneys, I don't know, I believe they

18 might have been in Houston. I don't know their names.

19 But he said that he was talking with counsel and I had

20 advised him to stay away from the media, to not share

21 any test results when they came in.

22 Q. Why is that?

23 A. Well, because it was really none of the

24 media's business. This was a serious situation, it's

25 not one that needs to be aired on channel-whatever news

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1 at 6 o'clock for ... for the effect.

2 Q. Why didn't you think it should be aired on

3 the nightly news for the effect of it?

4 A. I don't believe in -- I don't believe in

5 the -- well, I think the media does a great job, but

6 there are times that a situation is not necessary and

7 not warranted to be put on public news. I think this

8 is one of the cases that is a very serious concern and

9 it was one that warranted a lot of proper discussion

10 and observation and having all the test results back

11 before anybody made any kind of assumption.

12 And he was getting a lot of encouragement

13 to air the test results from different entities, all --

14 many different entities in Fort Worth. He was calling

15 me and saying channel so-and-so just called, channel

16 so-and-so just called, you know, "What do I tell them?"

17And I said, "Absolutely nothing." In fact, we

18 prevented many of the test results getting out until he

19 calmed down a little bit and was able to really think

20 about the ramifications of this.

21 Q. What all testing did you have done on the

22 interior water on August 26th? What different labs did

23 you send it to?

24 A. On the 26th we sent it to Anachem. We sent

25 it to Xenco. And again, we would have tested for the

123

1 same things that we did on the 10th. The laboratories

2 are specific. Armstrong. I think those are the three

3that we did on that one.

4 Q. Did you send the interior water to Dallas

5 Lab on August 26th?

6 A. No, sir, I stopped using Dallas Lab. The

7 Lipskys' case, I believe, was the last case I ever

8 submitted to Dallas Lab for any work.

9 Q. Is there anything else about any

10 conversations you recall with Mr. or Mrs. Lipsky on

11 August 26th that you haven't told me about?

12 A. I can't think of a thing, no, sir.

13 Q. Following your conversation with the

14 Lipskys on August 26th, 2010, what is the next time you

15 had any conversation with the Lipskys?

16A. Again, they would have called, you know,

17 "Is" -- "Are the test results back? Are the test

18 results back?" I was -- I can tell you when the next

19 time. I was at the Haileys on -- I have to look the

20 date up on the Haileys because I don't recall.

21 August 26th. And I had a conversation -- I

22 saw Mr. and Mrs. Lipsky at that time, and the EPA

23 arrived or people from the EPA arrived, I believe they

24 were from the Water Division, and I don't think that --

25 I don't think he had necessarily called them for that


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8 (Pages 124 to 127)

124

1 date, it's just that I happened to -- I was testing the

2 Haileys' property at the time and I swung by the

3 Lipskys' property, which is literally just right up the

4 street, to try to get a hoe because there was a

5 rattlesnake in my way.

6 Q. So the --

7 A. Well, preferably a gun, but he didn't have

8 one.

9 Q. So the Haileys that you mentioned are

10 neighbors of the Lipskys?

11 A. They are.

12 Q. And you had been to the Haileys' house on

13 August --

14 A. August 26th.

15 Q. Of 2010?

16 A. That is correct.

17Q. And you were at the Lipskys' house on18 August 24th of 2010?

19 A. I was testing on the 24th, but I also went

20 there on the 26th.

21 Q. Had you called the EPA to come out --

22 A. No, sir.

23 Q. -- to the Lipskys' house --

24 A. No, sir.

25 Q. -- on August 26th?

125

1 A. No, sir.

2 Q. Who contacted the EPA to ask them to come

3out to the Lipskys' house?

4 A. Well, I'm not sure that Mr. Lipsky had

5 asked them to come out to the house. When I was there,

6 I was actually -- I mean, again, I'm present on the

7 property during a conversation that of course they were

8 having. They -- and several of the Water -- the guys

9 from the Water Division, EPA, said that they were at

10 another location and thought they would -- they would

11 stop by.

12 So I don't recall that Ms. -- I don't

13 believe Mr. Lipsky had called them to come out on that

14 date. I think it was just happenstance that they were

15 out on another call not too far from there and they

16decided to swing by on their way back into

17 headquarters.

18 Q. Who -- who with the EPA came by the

19 Lipskys' house on August 26th of 2010?

20 A. I'm sorry, I'm not going to remember their

21 names. They are from the Water Division, I can tell

22 you that, but I don't recall anybody's name right off

23 the top of my head.

24 Q. How many people from the EPA were there?

25 A. I believe four.

126

1 Q. Did they do any sort of testing --

2 A. No, sir.

3 Q. -- or anything?

4 A. No, sir.

5 Q. Did you talk to them?

6 A. I was sitting around and they en -- they

7 engaged me in conversation just to -- you know, general

8 "Who are you" type conversation, "What are you doing

9 here," and I had to explain to them that I was actually

10 not really there for work, I was up the street for

11 work.

12 Q. Did they ask you about any of your test

13 results or what you had determined?

14 A. They asked me what I test for. They did

15 not test -- ask me what my test results were, and at

16 the time I'm not sure I had all of the test results

17 back. Generally, unless you have the whole bank of

18 test results back, you don't know -- I don't share the

19 results with my clients until they are all back,

20 because of course I can't -- I can't make a

21 determination until I see all the tests, what they

22 actually are confirming or not confirming.

23 Q. Would it be improper and imprudent to reach

24 conclusions and opinions before all the test results

25 are back?

127

1 A. I would not reach conclusions. I would

2 have an opinion on a preliminary basis, but I would not

3reach, I would not make an opinion of -- statement of

4 fact or not fact about all the -- all the results back.

5 And I would never share the results with the EPA.

6 That's Mr. Lipsky's and Mrs. Lipsky's opinion to share

7 or not share their test results. That's not my place

8 to make that call.

9 Q. As of August 24th or August 26th of 2010,

10 had you developed any preliminary opinions about the

11 Lipskys' property?

12 A. By two thousand -- by twen -- by the 24th,

13 I had the air results back. It would have been pretty

14 close whether I had the air results back or not. And

15 we were starting to get the test results back. And so,

16yes, I would have -- I would have started to -- yeah.

17 Again, I don't re -- I don't recall the exact date that

18 I got test results back.

19 Q. Prior to getting any test results back, had

20 you reached any preliminary opinions or conclusions

21 about what was going on at the Lipskys' property?

22 A. Oh, no, not until the test results come

23 back, no.

24 Q. And the first test results didn't come back

25 until about two weeks after August 10, 2010?


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9 (Pages 128 to 131)

128

1 A. Yeah, as I flip through, I'm noticing, you

2 know, dates again when a -- when the lab sent -- puts a

3 date on it, that may be a five-day differential from

4 the time I actually get it. So I look at it and it

5 says -- oh, well, it says August 13th, but did I get it

6 on the 13th, absolutely not. If the report says the

7 13th, it could be five to seven days before I actually

8 get it from the time they actually sign off on it.

9 So I'm looking at this and I'm saying, you

10 know, it's -- I probably had test -- oh. I had test

11 results that came in by the 26th of August, and the

12 test results were very bad. And what I mean by very

13 bad was there's some extreme concern for the property,

14 for imminent danger, et cetera, and exposure to the

15 children. Ms. Lipsky had asked for the results and

16 that was a conversation -- she's a delightful lady, but

17again, we were -- we were dealing with -- we were

18 dealing with a very strong interest of the media and my

19 opinion was absolutely not, do not share it with

20 anybody until you get counsel and get the advice of

21 counsel on what to do.

22 It's their results, they can do whatever

23 they want with it, but I will give them my opinion, and

24 that's what I said. They were receiving calls four and

25 five times a day from certain people wanting the

129

1 results and pressuring them to submit the results, and

2 I stood firm and refused to provide the test results to

3them. Mrs. Lipsky and I, despite the fact she's an

4 absolutely lovely lady, she basically took me to task

5 over refusing to submit the results and I basically

6 told her that it was more important to me that she

7 protect herself than it was to advertise the results

8 all over the evening news, and until they could assure

9 me that they had met with counsel and had opinion of

10 counsel and at least talked with counsel, I would not

11 submit them the results. It was not a comfortable

12 position for me.

13 Q. And who did she want you to submit these

14 results to?

15 A. She wanted a copy of the results and

16Mr. Lipsky wanted a copy of the results. And I had

17 given them a verbal of the type of results that we were

18 getting; however, at that time, on the 26th of August,

19 they did not have physically anything in their hands

20 that they would or could submit to any interested

21 parties other than themselves. And I had not developed

22 a report, which generally that's what happens. We get

23 the test results back, we develop a report and then we

24 submit it to the client. So from the time I actually

25 get the test results back, it could be anywhere from 30

130

1 days to 60 days, depending on all the test results or

2 depending on how many tests I did and how many times

3 I've had to or how many -- how in-depth the actual

4 report is. So it can be a -- it's at least a two-week

5 lag, and oftentimes it's more like a month or 45 days.

6 Q. Who did Mrs. Lipsky want you to submit the

7 report to in addition to herself?

8 A. She just wanted the report, herself.

9 Q. And you refused to give it to her?

10 A. I told her that until I could have an

11 assurance that the report, that I could -- until I had

12 an assurance that they would not deliver this

13 immediately to anybody but an attorney and take counsel

14 of an attorney, I had to hold tight on not giving them

15 the actual final results. Although they knew, I had

16 informed them the type of results, but I would not hand

17 them something physically, because I was -- I was very

18 concerned that given the -- the heightened energy of

19 the situation, that they would go to the wrong people

20 and it would become an outrageously -- it would become

21 a horrible show in the media.

22 And I believe shortly after that they did

23 both talk with several attorneys and I think finally

24 contracted with Mr. Ritter, but I don't know the exact

25 date of that.

131

1 Q. Was Mr. and Mrs. Lipsky at odds with each

2 other about what they wanted to do with the report?

3A. I think that they were -- I don't know

4 that. I think that they were discussing all sorts of

5 options. But again, you've got a lot of media

6 interest, they had numerous phone calls every single

7 day urging them to turn over the test results, and I

8 felt that that was a very inappropriate thing to do at

9 the time.

10 Q. What were the news media outlets that were

11 contacting them during this time period asking them to

12 turn over the results?

13 A. I think it was every -- I think it was

14 every possible media in town. I think it was Channel

15 8, Channel 11, Channel 5. It was newspapers, it was --

16gosh, it was everybody, every -- and they were

17 contacting me as well.

18 Q. And who -- who first informed all these

19 media outlets that you were doing any testing on the

20 property?

21 A. I don't know that, sir.

22 Q. Have you ever had any conversation with any

23 media outlet related to any of your work you did for

24 Mr. Lipsky?

25 A. I believe I had -- I had Channel 11 -- oh,


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10 (Pages 132 to 135)

132

1 gosh. No. I'm wrong. Channel 8. I believe I had

2 Channel 8 call several times. Again, you know --

3 you'll understand when I say they called several times

4 a day, and I finally left a message for one of them

5 that basically said, "This is not my data. I cannot

6 give you this data. This is information" --

7 "Mr. Lipsky's information, and when he chooses to make

8 it public, if he so chooses to make it public, that's

9 his informa" -- "that's" -- "that's his choice."

10 It is not my choice to submit any

11 information to them at all. And they understand that.

12 I mean, they've -- I have worked with them before and

13 they understand the situation.

14 Q. Other than leaving that voicemail at

15 Channel 8, have you ever had any other conversation

16 with anyone at any media outlet?

17 A. No, sir.

18 Q. Have you ever talked to anyone other than

19 what you have told me about on August the 26th of 2010,

20 related to the EPA?

21 A. No, I don't believe so. Not on the Lipsky

22 case.

23 Q. Have you ever talked to anyone at the EPA

24 related to the Hailey matter?

25 A. No, sir.

133

1 Q. You have never spoken with Mr. Armenderez

2 about the Lipsky matter?

3A. No, sir, absolutely not.

4 Q. Have you ever spoken to a Mr. Chris Lyster

5 related to the Lipsky matter?

6 A. No, sir.

7 Q. Have you ever spoken to Mr. Armenderez


9 A. No, sir.

10 Q. Have you ever spoken to a Mr. Chris Lyster


12 A. No, sir.

13 Q. To your --

14 A. Not that I'm aware of.

15 Q. To your knowledge, have you ever spoken

16with anyone at the EPA related to either the Lipsky or

17 Hailey matter?

18 A. I don't recall ever having a conversation

19 with anybody except for the EPA people that were at his

20 house on the 26th in regards to the Lipsky matter at

21 all.

22 Q. Did you ever send any e-mails to anyone at

23 the EPA related to the Lipsky matter?

24 A. Not that I recall, no.

25 Q. Did you ever send any e-mails to anyone at

134

1 the EPA related to the Hailey matter?

2 A. No, sir.

3 Q. Did you ever send any letters or other

4 forms of written communication to anyone at the EPA

5 related to the Lipsky matter?

6 A. Not that I'm aware of, no.

7 Q. Did you ever send any letters or other

8 forms of communication to the EPA related to the Hailey

9 matter?

10 A. No, sir.

11 Q. When did you give the Lipskys the reports

12 of the results of the testing at their home?

13 A. I'm not aware of the exact date. I can

14 tell you that it was shortly after the conversation

15 that Mrs. Lipsky and I had. She was very compelling.

16 I don't recall the exact date, though.

17Q. Did she --18 A. And I would not have had the 26th results,

19 again, for another two weeks.

20 Q. Did Mrs. Lipsky threaten you in any way?

21 A. Oh, gosh, no. No.

22 Q. Did you hand-deliver the reports to them?

23 A. No, sir, I don't believe so. I believe

24 they were loaded into the cloud. I believe my

25 assistant loaded them into the cloud and they were

135

1 linked to their cloud.

2 Q. How does that work?

3A. My assistant scans their documents into --

4 scans it into the computer and uploads it into a cloud,

5 where the Lipskys or any of my clients are then

6 notified that they have access to that link at all

7 times. That prevents -- that -- that allows them

8 complete access to all their files at any time at any

9 location no matter where they are on the face of the

10 earth, and they don't have to worry about did I get all

11 the documents or did I get -- or, "I can't find an

12 e-mail in which you e-mailed me the document." It's

13 just in a -- in a cloud for their access.

14 Q. What's the address or how do you access

15 this cloud?

16A. You have to call my assistant and find out.

17 There -- there is a way. There is a way. You go to

18 a -- a link. You go to a website link, and at the

19 website link there is a protected file that is their

20 account only. I have access to all of the accounts.

21 They do not have access to any of the accounts except

22 their account, and they literally -- they literally --

23 it's -- it's a web link. It's just like popping into a

24 web page, and the web page is all their documents.

25 Q. And your son is the one that sets all this


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11 (Pages 136 to 139)

136

1 up?

2 A. My assistant actually uploads, my assistant

3 that was working there actually uploads everything. My

4 technician is a technician. He doesn't do work like

5 that. He's out in the field. So, no, it would be the

6 assistant that uploads the data.

7 Q. When do you think you uploaded the Lipskys'

8 data for them to review?

9 A. I would have -- I have no -- no idea. It

10 would have to be -- I would have to check the link.

11 I -- I didn't do it, so I wouldn't know. It would be

12 sometime in September, I'm sure, but I -- I honestly

13 can't tell you a date.

14 Q. After August 26th, 2010, when is the next

15 time you recall any conversation with either Mr. or

16 Mrs. Lipsky?

17 A. I'm -- I'm sure we have had conversations.

18 We haven't had a lot since the results were delivered.

19 I believe shortly after that, they started working with

20 Mr. Ritter. So much of the conversation would have

21 been between him and them. Once the results were in, I

22 don't even recall talking with them very much except,

23 "Here are the results," you know, "This" -- "this is

24 what they mean." And he already understood, obviously,

25 from having some of the results come in, what -- what

137

1 it was, and that I think we've only had very few

2 conversations since the time they actually got their

3 results.

4 Q. What did you tell the Lipskys that the

5 results meant?

6 A. It was my opinion based on the facts that a

7 natural gas well had compromised their water well

8 sometime between January 2010 and August 2010 and that

9 the matter that was flowing out of their well was

10 unrefined natural gas directly from a natural gas well.

11 Whether it was the Beale -- the Butler or the Beale, I

12 had no idea. I could not make that -- I could not

13 ascertain the location of it.

14 Q. What did you say, "the Butler or the

15 Beale"?

16 A. Yeah, it's the Butler or the -- which wells

17 are these? The Butler or the -- whichever wells these

18 are.

19 Q. Are you talking about the Butler or the

20 Teal?

21 A. Teal. Yeah. The Teal.

22 Q. Let me make sure I understand this. It was

23 you -- you told them that based on the results of your

24 testing at their property, that it was your opinion

25 that unrefined natural gas was getting into their water

138

1 well from one or more gas wells in the area?

2 A. I don't believe I said any -- which gas

3 well or -- or what gas well. I said that there was a

4 compromise of their water well, obviously from an

5 incredibly high volume of natural gas, probably from

6 one of the wells emanating directly beneath their house

7 given the -- given the quantity of gas in which it was.

8 However, I did not state that it was or was not the

9 Butler or the Teal. I would have no way of knowing.

10 Q. And when you say "the quantity of gas,"

11 what are you referring to?

12 A. Well, when we do water tests and we do --

13 we do air tests, we actually quantify how much -- how

14 much contaminants are actually in a certain given

15 volume of water and air, and in that case we actually

16 identified that they had an astronomically high

17concentration of compounds directly related to

18 unrefined natural gas, including methane, present in

19 their -- in their air within their house as well as

20 outside of their house, and within their water matrix

21 as well, both in -- in their house and exterior to

22 their house.

23 Q. And that's what you told them verbally?

24 A. That would have been a summary of what I

25 told them, yes, of course.

139

1 Q. And that the cause -- you told them that

2 the cause of this natural gas that you had detected in

3your testing was likely due to one or more of the gas

4 wells that the laterals of which went under or near

5 their property?

6 A. Well --

7 MR. RITTER: Objection, form.

8 A. -- I would not have said that it's from

9 their -- one of the wells that goes under their

10 property. I would have no way of knowing that. I

11 would tell them that given the presence of the well

12 under their property - again, you call it the

13 laterals - given the laterals of the -- of the well, it

14 is a potential source, yes, and that they obviously

15 would have to notify the Railroad Commission, notify

16 Range, get some pressure testing done to see what the17 pressure on the wells were to find out if the wells

18 were actually compromised.

19 But I have no knowledge of any of that, the

20 test results of that; if the test results were done,

21 what the test results have.

22 Q. (BY MR. SIMS) As you sit here today, do

23 you -- do you know a cause of any methane in the

24 Lipskys' water well?

25 A. Do I know the cause?


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12 (Pages 140 to 143)

140

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. I know -- I believe that a probable cause

3 is a natural gas well, yes.

4 Q. And do you know which natural gas well you

5 believe to be the probable cause of any methane in the

6 Lipskys' water well?

7 A. I think it's highly probable that it will

8 be either the Butler or the Teal. And my opinion is

9 based on not only the timing of the drilling of the

10 well, but also the timing that their personal water

11 well went out.

12 Q. When was the Butler drilled?

13 A. It was drilled, I believe, in 2009.

14 Q. When in 2009?

15 A. Sir, I don't know. Mr. Lipsky I know

16 showed me some papers at one time, but I never got a

17copy of them so I -- I can't remember the exact date

18 that it was drilled.

19 Q. When was the Teal drilled?

20 A. I don't know, sir.

21 Q. When did the Butler go on production?


23 Q. When did the Teal go on production?

24 A. I don't know that, sir.

25 Q. Would that timing matter to you in any way

141

1 related to your opinions?

2 A. He actually informed me of the time and the

3date that they went on my -- my prob -- again, I don't

4 recall when he told me. It was within a very short

5 time that they started having, according to Ms. Lipsky,

6 that they started having problems, and I'm going to say

7 it's within a six-month period of time. But when

8 exactly they went on and when exactly they were

9 drilled, I don't have any data to support any date or

10 month of -- I -- month of when they actually came

11 online.

12 Q. Have you ever had any conversations with

13 anyone at the Railroad -- Texas Railroad Commission

14 about the Lipsky matter?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16Q. Who have you talked to?

17 A. Oh. Let's see. I was out there one day

18 and I can't remember which date it was, but Bubba was

19 there from the Abilene office. I believe Bubba is out

20 of the Abilene office. And -- I can't remember his

21 name right off, the -- one of the head guys over at the

22 Abilene office. I'm sorry. His name just escaped me.

23 Anyway, they were both there.

24 Q. Do you remember any specific conversations

25 with either one of them?

142

1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. What did they -- what did you talk about?

3 A. Specific to the Lipsky property, they were

4 noncommittal as far as what they thought was going on.

5 They weren't real happy about Mr. Lipsky lighting

6 the -- the well, when he could light the well, he

7 wasn't -- they weren't really happy about that. They

8 said there could be a downdraft and the whole place

9 could go up, and I believe that was one of the primary

10 conversations.

11 Bubba mentioned that this happened all the

12 time across West Texas and that there was some

13 technology that we could hook up to the well and run

14 our own little turbine based on natural gas, and he

15 said a lot of guy -- a lot of people are -- out in West

16 Texas he said it's, you know, free util -- free -- free

17 energy and for a 10,000 square foot house you could

18 save a lot of money. And he said it happens all the

19 time in West Texas and that we could -- he explain --

20 he explained these were called microturbines and that

21 we could look into hooking a microturbine up to his

22 water well.

23 And I don't know -- I don't know that well

24 how these work, although I looked into it. This was

25 quite a while ago and I don't have anything that I

143

1 could bring to -- I didn't download anything accessible

2 or anything. But basically there's some way of

3draining off the natural gas, the unrefined natural

4 gas, using it in the -- in the turbine, and -- and

5 being able to purify the water well enough that it

6 could be useable for at least support of wash, washing

7 and irrigation of the property.

8 Q. Do you remember Bubba talking to you about

9 anything else while he was out there?

10 A. Well, we were out there quite a while, but

11 I don't recall anything specific conversation.

12 Q. Did you ever provide Mr. Lipsky any

13 information about microturbines?

14 A. I don't recall if I ever provided him

15 information at -- about microturbines. I know I looked

16them up, but I wasn't really happy with that concept.

17 So I don't really know how those work. Again, those

18 are outside my expertise. And I did advise him to get

19 his well guy out there and see what he could do, but --

20 interesting concept.

21 Q. Other than that conversation with the Texas

22 Railroad Commission, have you ever had any other

23 conversations with anyone at the Texas Railroad

24 Commission?

25 A. No, sir, that was the only day.


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13 (Pages 144 to 147)

144

1 Q. Have you ever had anybody -- any

2 conversations with anyone at the Texas Railroad

3 Commission related to the Hailey matter?

4 A. No, sir.

5 Q. Have you ever had any conversations with

6 County Judge Mark Riley related to the Lipsky matter or

7 the Hailey matter?

8 A. No, sir, I have not.

9 Q. Have you ever told Mr. Lipsky that the

10 County Judge Mark Riley is furious?

11 A. Yes, sir, I think I did. But I don't

12 remember if he told me that or if I told him that. But

13 I do remember hearing that he was ... that might have

14 been what Mr. Lipsky told me, because I believe Judge

15 Riley came out with his assistant, and again, I wasn't

16 out -- I wasn't -- I wasn't there so I don't know, but

17 I remember him saying his assistant got sick, and my

18 comment is -- was that, "Some people are more sensitive

19 than other people." And I believe he told me that.

20 Q. So Mr. Lipsky told you that County Judge

21 Riley was furious?

22 A. Well, again, I wouldn't have had a

23 conversation with Mr. -- with -- I'm sorry, with Judge

24 Riley, so I don't know how I would initiate the fact

25 that Judge Riley was furious. But again, it could have

145

1 been he told me and ... I don't recall.

2 Q. Have you ever told anyone that County Judge

3Riley was furious?

4 A. No, although I do believe we had a

5 conversation with the Parker County -- I think we had a

6 conversation in regards to Judge Riley with the Parker

7 County fire individuals, I believe they were fire --

8 again, I apologize, Fire Chiefs or whatever their exact

9 titles are, and the fact that the Aledo well had been

10 blown out by, I think -- I think it was Chesapeake, the

11 Aledo municipal well had been blown out, one of their

12 newest wells had been blown out by Chesapeake and they

13 had to shut that down, and Judge Riley was not happy

14 about that. I do remember that conversation.

15 Q. And that was a conversation between you and

16Mr. Lipsky?

17 A. I think -- no, I think that was a

18 conversation when -- when the Parker County Fire

19 Chief -- fire personnel were out there and, boy, I

20 don't even remember when that was. I don't remember

21 the date that that was. But we had a conversation. I

22 work a lot in Aledo and that was one of the things that

23 came up and I believe that was the conversation.

24 So who said what when, I don't recall. I

25 don't recall initiating the fact that Judge Riley was

146

1 furious about something, although we certainly could

2 have bantered that around at some time given the

3 conversation, but who initiated it, I don't know.

4 Q. At some point in time, did you become aware

5 that a water well about 800 feet away from Mr. Lipsky's

6 water well had flared natural gas?

7 A. No, sir.

8 Q. You've never heard that?

9 A. When you say "800 feet away," I'm not sure

10 in which direction you are -- you are talking about. I

11 believe that there was a water -- there was a -- a

12 well, a natural gas well at the arena that went --

13 Q. Okay, we'll talk about that in a minute.

14 I'm talking about water wells.

15 A. Okay.

16 Q. As you sit here today, are you aware of any

17 water wells in the Silverado addition, other than

18 Mr. Lipskys', that have flared natural gas?

19 A. That has flared natural gas? No, I have no

20 knowledge of Mr. Hailey ever trying to flare his well,

21 so I would tell you no, I don't know anything about any

22 other well.

23 Q. Has anyone throughout all your work and

24 testing for Mr. Lipsky and Mr. Hailey, have any -- have

25 any of those people or anyone associated with them ever

147

1 told you about any water wells in the Silverado

2 addition that have flared natural gas?

3A. I don't recall a conversation about another

4 well other than the Haileys and the Lipskys of -- in

5 the Silverado having issues, other than the arena. So

6 no.

7 Q. If you assume with me that other wells in

8 the Silverado addition have flared natural gas, would

9 you also conclude that the Butler or Teal wells were

10 the cause of methane being in those water wells?


12 A. I would not make that assumption. It would

13 depend on the quantity of the concentration. Again,

14 the concentration that was underneath Mr. Lipsky's and

15 in Mr. Lipsky's water was astronomical. So, therefore,

16the close association to a geologic formation with an

17 incredible volume of pressure related to natural gas

18 had to be there.

19 As we look at the Haileys', their volume

20 was not astronomical. It was present. So it would

21 depend, once again, on location of what it was and what

22 the volume was. Until I saw any results is it

23 significant or insignificant, I would know -- I would

24 not know.

25 Q. (BY MR. SIMS) Did the Haileys have methane


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1 in their well water?

2 A. Yes, sir, they did.

3 Q. Do you have an opinion as to the cause of

4 any methane in the Haileys' well water?

5 A. I think it's highly probable that the same

6 source that contaminated the Lipsky well also

7 contaminated the Hailey well, given the location of the

8 Hailey well and the distance from the Lipsky property.

9 Their concentration is nowhere near the concentration

10 of the Lipskys', but it was still present.

11 Q. And in your investigation, have you looked

12 at any publicly available information about other water

13 wells in the area as to whether they have any methane

14 in them?

15 A. Are you talking about residential water

16 wells?

17Q. Any water wells in the area.18 A. So drilled wells of residences. I -- I

19 don't know of any. I have not investigated any. I

20 wasn't hired to do a full investigation of the

21 Silverado and I -- and find out exactly which wells,

22 whose wells, and how many wells are contaminated.

23 Q. If other -- if other water wells in the

24 area have experienced natural gas in them that can be

25 proven, what if any effect will that have on any of

149

1 your opinions or conclusions?


3A. It probably won't have a whole lot. I

4 don't think it would sway me very much at all. I would

5 look at the well that you are talking about, or wells,

6 plural, at the concentration of the wells, and then

7 once again the location of how many verticals or

8 horizontals happen to be drilled in the area. I would

9 also look at how many -- how many natural gas wells

10 were -- were producing near that one location that you

11 are talking about. But I -- I'm not swayed in my

12 opinion of the Lipskys' property, given the volume of

13 natural gas that I am seeing here, I'm not swayed at

14 all. Even if I saw other properties, I doubt seriously

15 they would have the problem that he has, although I

16would be more than happy to look at that data.

17 Q. (BY MR. SIMS) Would it make any difference

18 to you in your opinions and conclusions if it could be

19 proved that there have been multiple water wells that

20 have experienced gas, natural gas that pre-date any

21 Barnett Shale drilling in this area of Parker County?


23 A. Oh, I know that there is biogenic sources,

24 but you don't have biogenic sources big enough to blow

25 a hole in the middle of the earth like this. So I am

150

1 well aware of biogenic sources. I'm also well aware

2 that in that area there's probably 25 to 30

3 non-producing wells that people have pushed through and

4 probably broken through the Ellenberger on. So that's

5 a good question. I don't know.

6 Q. (BY MR. SIMS) And how is it when -- when

7 wells have broken through and pushed through the

8 Ellenberger, how does that affect the natural gas

9 content in the water wells?

10 A. Well, it can cause, depending on of course

11 where -- where it happens, it actually can cause

12 migrational pollution. But once again, when we are

13 looking at concentration, when you are looking at the

14 Lipskys' property and they have concentrations into the

15 hundreds of thousands of parts per billion, what we

16 have to look at is the fact that if they have a

17 concentration like that, they have literally plugged

18 into -- a natural gas stream has literally pulled --

19 plugged into their water well.

20 In this case, according to the Chesapeake's

21 chairman, you can't -- that doesn't happen naturally

22 unless you frac some rock. So if you frac some rock,

23 there would -- the indication would be that there would

24 have been a natural gas production at some time that

25 fracced that rock, which led to the contamination of

151

1 that well.

2 Q. So it's your opinion that the frac'ing of

3the Barnett Shale in connection with either the Butler

4 or the Teal wells is what caused the source of methane

5 in the Lipskys' water well?

6 A. No, I couldn't actually tell you whether it

7 was the actual frac'ing of the well or whether the

8 casing of the well has gone bad or whether an -- the

9 pressure on the annulus got so high that it blew the

10 well. I cannot tell you what happened in order to

11 integrate the two wells. I have no knowledge of that.

12 I would not speculate as to that. I only have a

13 knowledge that something happened that caused the

14 integration of those two, the water well and the gas

15 well. But I don't know which one of the two. I could

16make an assumption, but that would not be particularly

17 worthwhile.

18 Q. Have there been any water wells in the

19 Silverado addition that have -- that -- that as soon as

20 they were drilled that the gas literally pushed,

21 without a pump or anything, literally pushed the water

22 out of the well and flared gas in a large flame?

23 A. Stream? I have no knowledge of that, no.

24 Q. Would it make any difference to you if --

25 if there are facts that irrefutably prove that?


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15 (Pages 152 to 155)

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1 A. I would of course look at the facts and I

2 would of course consider the facts, but I don't have

3 any knowledge of those facts, no.

4 Q. If you had knowledge of those facts, would

5 that certainly be something you would want to take into

6 account and consider in formulating your opinions?

7 A. Yes, but I don't think it would sway my

8 opinion of the Lipskys' situation in any way, shape or

9 form. Once again, when you are looking at a volume

10 that is consistent and con -- and -- and persistent at

11 this level, you have to -- you have to realize that

12 there has been an integration of a natural gas well and

13 unfortunately his water well to -- to have that;

14 otherwise, the whole area would have the same

15 situation. We would have the Haileys with the same

16 concentration as the Lipskys, with the same

17concentration as the people that I can't remember - I

18 was at their house just down the road - to the south of

19 the Haileys, as well as the whole subdivision would

20 have that same consistency. But we do not see -- well,

21 at least I'm not seeing this through the two that I

22 have -- I have actually studied.

23 Q. You're not seeing -- you're not seeing

24 methane in multiple water wells across the entire

25 subdivision; is that right?

153

1 A. Well, sir, all I can talk about is the two

2 that they have contracted me to look at. I haven't

3seen any other test results, nobody has supplied me

4 with any other test results, and they haven't asked me

5 to actually do any other test results.

6 Q. So if you are going to really talk about,

7 with any sort of expertise, about what's really going

8 on in the area, you'd really need to test all those

9 water wells in the area and find out what -- what those

10 results are; is that right?


12 A. If Range would like me to -- hire me to

13 test all the wells in that area, I'd be more than happy

14 to do that.

15 MR. SIMS: That doesn't respond to my

16question.

17 Q. (BY MR. SIMS) In order to come up with

18 valid conclusions about what's going on in the area,

19 you'd need to conduct all that testing, wouldn't you?


21 A. If Range would like to hire me to conduct

22 all that testing, I would be more than happy to. I

23 doubt that that would change my opinion in any way,

24 shape or form, but I would be happy to test everybody's

25 water well and give you a very, very concise opinion of

154

1 the Silverado subdivision.

2 Q. (BY MR. SIMS) It 's your testimony as you

3 sit here today that Mr. Lipsky never mentioned to you

4 or told you at any time about a water well a few

5 hundred feet away from his water well that had

6 experienced large amounts of gas in it?


8 A. The only well that I remember talking about

9 was the arena well, and again, I don't know if it's a

10 water well or a natural gas well. Oftentimes those --

11 you know, people don't define. They say, "A well blew

12 up." Well, I don't know if it's a water well and I

13 don't know if it's a natural gas well. It was my

14 understanding, and I believe this was actually from the

15 Haileys, not the Lipskys, I believe the Haileys

16 mentioned that there was something at the arena that

17had to be closed and I think that was in 2009.

18 Q. (BY MR. SIMS) Okay. So -- so you think

19 there may have been a water well located close to the

20 horse barn arena or the horse arena in the Silverado

21 addition that -- that had to be plugged?

22 A. No.


24 A. No, I -- not a water well. That it was my

25 understanding from the conversation that I had with

155

1 her, my recollection of the conversation was that a gas

2 well had somehow gotten blown and there was emergency

3vehicles all over the place and this was in 2009

4 sometime, could have -- you know, again, that's just my

5 recollection of what was stated, and that the well had

6 actually been closed.

7 Q. (BY MR. SIMS) And when you say that

8 this -- this gas well by the horse arena in the

9 Silverado addition had been "blown," what does that

10 mean?

11 A. It means that natural gas was coming out of

12 the -- I'm sorry. It means that natural gas was coming

13 out of the well uncontrollably and they had to do a

14 forced closure on it. Why, I don't know. I was never

15 told a reason why there was a compromise. Is it

16possible that there was a structure incompetence of the

17 well? Yes. Is it possible somebody didn't put the gas

18 well -- I'm sorry, the wellhead on correctly? Well,

19 yes. Possibly somebody just blew the pressure on -- on

20 the well that they weren't maintaining it correctly. I

21 don't know. I was never told. I was given no reason

22 at all for why it blew.

23 Q. Do you even know if gas did come

24 uncontrollably out of the well?

25 A. It was only a statement that somebody told


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16 (Pages 156 to 159)

156

1 me that it was -- that the well blew. By that

2 terminology, one would anticipate something of extreme

3 force and probably fire, but I don't know of anything

4 particular. I've never seen a picture or any document

5 that supports that evidence.

6 Q. When someone told you that the -- that this

7 gas well over by the horse arena in the Silverado

8 addition blew, did you ask them what they meant by

9 that?

10 A. I don't recall that I specifically said,

11 "Do you know why?" I don't recall that I did. They

12 said that it was a force -- it was a closure, that they

13 actually closed it.

14 Q. Did you ask them if fire was coming out of

15 the well?

16 A. No, I don't think I -- one would assume if

17 you say the well blows that something bad like fire is

18 happening, but I don't recall ever actually saying,

19 "Was fire coming out of the well," no, sir.

20 Q. So all that testimony you've just given us

21 about fire coming out of the well and all that, that's

22 just your assumption?

23 A. That would be my assumption of what

24 happened. I do not have any data to support that and

25 don't recall the conversation, them saying that there

157

1 was a stream of fire 35 feet tall doing anything, no.

2 Q. Or a stream of fire 2 inches?

3A. Yeah, exactly.

4 Q. You just don't know.

5 A. No. If somebody says, "The well has

6 blown," generally that indicates a very high pressure,

7 and that is not -- never a good thing.

8 Q. Who drilled that well?

9 A. I would have to make an assumption of who

10 drilled it, but I do not know for sure.

11 Q. What assumption would you make?

12 A. Well, I would make the assumption that

13 since you have a lot of lease holdings in that area it

14 would be Range. But once again, I don't have any facts

15 on that and I would -- that would just strictly be an

16assumption on the volume of leaseholdings that you have

17 at -- that Range has in that area.

18 Q. How many -- what's the amount of acreage

19 that Range holds in -- in leasehold in -- in this area

20 of Parker County that we are talking about?

21 A. I don't know the amount of acreage. It

22 certainly is a large portion.

23 Q. And how do you define "large"?

24 A. It goes for miles.

25 Q. Goes for miles.

158

1 A. It goes for miles.

2 Q. Hundreds of thousands of acres?


4 Q. Thousands of acres?


6 Q. Hundreds of acres?

7 A. Well, because the lease properties are

8 checkerboarded, oftentimes it's very difficult to know

9 where one starts, where one stops. I know Chesapeake

10 is a big area -- I'm sorry, a big producer in that

11 area. I know that Range is a big producer. But I

12 don't know exactly where you are checkerboarded and

13 where you are not.

14 Q. Do you know how many acres Range Resources

15 holds under lease in Parker County?

16 A. No, sir. Total acreage, no, I do not.

17 Q. Do you know if it's hundreds of acres or

18 thousands of acres?

19 A. I would make an assumption, as large as

20 your -- as the Range company is, that it would be

21 thousands of acres. But again, that would strictly be

22 an assumption and whether or not -- it's very

23 difficult, because oftentimes the mineral right and the

24 surface right owners are not the same, it would be very

25 difficult to even know that. Silverado is unique in

159

1 that they don't actually allow a lot of drillings on

2 the Silverado properties. So therefore it's very

3difficult to ascertain whether even you have mineral

4 right ownership and whether you have drilled underneath

5 that property. But I believe that is your property, or

6 you are the primary mineral production in -- in the

7 Silverado area. I could be wrong.

8 Q. What -- what do you base that belief on?

9 A. Well, generally it has to do with the

10 negotiation that the land -- excuse me, the mineral

11 right owner has with the production company, and in

12 this case nobody in the Silverado, to my knowledge,

13 Silverado On The Brazos, the subdivision, the

14 homeowners subdivision, I don't believe any of them are

15 actually surface right owners. So it would be my

16assumption that the landowner who actually sold off

17 everything into a subdivision retained the mineral

18 rights and therefore probably negotiated with one

19 individual for the mineral rights.

20 Q. Is this horse arena you are talking about

21 in the Silverado addition?

22 A. I believe it is, yes.

23 Q. Could that -- could that gas well be a --

24 the cause of any -- of any problems in connection with

25 the methane that you have found in the Lipsky well and


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17 (Pages 160 to 163)

160

1 the Hailey well?

2 A. I doubt that very seriously, given the

3 volume that's underneath the Lipsky house.

4 Q. And when you say "the volume," what are you

5 talking about?

6 A. Once again it's the volume that we

7 calculate per -- in this case we -- we look at the

8 parts per billion, or cubic -- how many micrograms per

9 cubic meter or micrograms per liter that we happen

10 to -- or milligrams per liter that we happen to

11 investigate and determine how much concentration is in

12 one area. When you have an extremely high

13 concentration in one area, you would then not

14 necessarily anticipate that it flowed under everybody's

15 houses, and nobody has a complaint except may --

16 basically the Haileys, and even the Haileys'

17concentration is incredibly low. So it makes geologic

18 sense that it would have been stimulated subsurface

19 directly under or close to under the Lipsky property.

20 MR. SIMS: Why don't we take a five-minute

21 break if we can.

22 VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record. 2:43 p.m.

23 (Break from 2:43 p.m. to 3:01 p.m.)

24 VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the record.

25 3:01 p.m.

161

1 Q. (BY MR. SIMS) Ms. Rich, have you had any

2 conversations with anyone at the TCEQ related to the

3Lipsky matter?

4 A. No, sir.

5 Q. Have you had any conversations with anyone

6 at the TCEQ related to the Hailey matter?

7 A. No, sir.

8 Q. Have you had any conversations with anyone

9 at the TCEQ related to any of your work in the

10 Silverado addition of the -- of Parker County?

11 A. No, sir.

12 Q. If you would, please, flip over to tab 14

13 in your notebook, but look at the second page of tab

14 14. Is this the cover page for your August 10 water

15 test?

16 A. Yes, sir.17 Q. And the cover page says Mr. and

18 Mrs. Stephen Lipsky, 127 River Oak Court, Weatherford,

19 Texas, 76087, Water Lab Results, August 2010, Wolf

20 Eagle Environmental, LLC. Correct?


22 Q. Is this -- is this the exact cover page

23 that was used on the test initially presented to the

24 Lipskys?

25 A. Again, the test would have been uploaded to

162

1 the cloud, so they might not have received that.

2 That's actually on their book. And when I say "their

3 book," I maintain their records in a book, in a 3-ring

4 binder in the office, and that would have been on the

5 front of the binder, on the front interior page of the

6 binder, in front of their results.

7 Q. When you prepared the results originally,

8 did you have other cover pages on the results other

9 than what you are showing and what you brought today?

10 A. No, generally all the lab results are

11 uploaded to the cloud directly from the lab. So a

12 cover -- a cover page like that may not be given to the

13 Lipskys, but it is in my possession in the front of

14 their book as identification of exactly what I did for

15 them on that date.

16 Q. Why did you never prepare a written report

17 for the Lipskys in this matter?

18 A. Actually none was ever requested of me, and

19 generally what I do is wait for the acknowledgment that

20 they are ready to have a report done and I pull

21 together a report. In this case, they did not tell me

22 that they wanted a report; in fact, they said, "Just

23 hold off until we tell you to develop a report."

24 Q. The third page behind the cover page looks

25 to be some sort of map that you, I guess, printed off

163

1 from the North Central Texas Council of Governments?


3Q. And was this in the original report that

4 you provided to the Lipskys?

5 A. No, sir. That would be in my documents.

6 That would probably not have been put into their

7 documents. It's just our identifier of their location,

8 an aerial map of their location.

9 Q. When was this document printed off?

10 A. This would be at the time that we actually

11 went out, so sometime in August of 2010. Generally we

12 do those before we ever go out to the location so we

13 can find the location easily in a rural community.

14 Q. On this aerial photograph, are you able to

15 identify generally where the Lipskys' property is

16located?

17 A. Yes. There's two maps. Are you referring

18 to one in particular, the first one or the second one?

19 Q. On the first one, do you have -- can you

20 identify where the Lipskys' property is located?

21 A. It's a little red dot.

22 Q. On mine --

23 A. Okay.

24 Q. -- is black and white. It doesn't --

25 A. Okay.


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164

1 Q. -- have any red dots. So --

2 A. Okay.

3 Q. You do have a red dot where the Lipskys'

4 property is located?

5 A. I do.

6 Q. All right. And on the next map, what do

7 you have on that?

8 A. The -- again, you put their location in,

9 and the NCT Council of Governments actually identifies

10 it with a circle. So you may have --

11 Q. So both maps show the approximate location

12 of the Lipskys' property?

13 A. It's supposed to -- it's supposed to show

14 the exact location of the Lipskys' property as far as

15 their address.

16 Q. On either one of these aerial maps that you

17 printed off, can you identify the site where the Butler

18 and Teal wells are located?

19 A. I can identify the pad site, yes.

20 Q. And where is that?

21 A. Directly south of the -- River Oak.

22 Q. Okay. Can you hold that up to the camera

23 and point t

Alisa L Rich - Deposition Dated January 18 2011.

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Transcript of Alisa L Rich - Deposition Dated January 18 2011.