› houseBusiness › Hansard › ga38session… · Hcve::be: 29,!.979 Tape ::o. 1455 AJ.i-1 !
100
t.'"!-rED I'I'E::J !OR Ti'·:E ?:::?..:·:0: 3:CO - 6:00 ?·=· :-10. 40
Transcript of › houseBusiness › Hansard › ga38session… · Hcve::be: 29,!.979 Tape ::o. 1455 AJ.i-1 !
FR£LI!1I~lA.?-Y
t.'"!-rED I'I'E::J
!OR Ti'·:E ?:::?..:·:0:
3:CO ?·~· - 6:00 ?·=·
:-10. 40
~lo•;e.m.!:le:: 29, :.Si9 rape . '"'' .... o .. ??.. - 1
?.: • Speaker !.:'l ~::e C.haLr.
; • CollL'1.s) •
re;::crt. .:u·.d ca.."l o: ;i.ve us
::'lent. cr. i':.?
The hen. x:.r..:.s':.er ot :;:.:-.ance.
)R • .J. c:::..:..r:-;s:
ga.lnsa:; t..'lat..
in t:.:te :.ea::: tut'.lre :tc~o~ ':..'1.L~.gs a:::e ;e<:.:.in<; cr.. Co :-.ot gai:-,say
what: has be~n ::epcrted1 but: en the other hand r do say t:ha':. ~:,e
aps;ro:d.::.at:ely -it ..,.as c:: :-:ove.!cl:;a;;::: 6, as a :~at':er ot !a=t: -t.he arrange=:ent
3677
Nov~er 29, l9i9 ?K - 2
J:. Col.li.:-,s: ~ssess ':hen in "-"·Y ·.;a.y 1 •,;a did not: look
:.hose r:.a::::es en t::o th~ ?.~ceiver.
:he First A:~bian proposal,
I .1a'.>e r:.o C.e<:ail on t."la':. ! kno··• ':i".at. :..•ere :-.ave :Ceen inqciri.,.s, ':hough.
MP.. J;.J1!ESCN : A supplecent::ary.
A supple:::en:a::r·. the hon. Lead=: of t:h<;.
OpfOS.!.t:l0!1.
Coul::! ':::e ho:;.. :-J:ini.s:.er of ?inanc:e. (:;r. J. :cllir.s)
ccniirm c; deny anct.::e=~ repor-:. ;.;;..i.e.> ap;;:ears ':.0 ioave cr~denc~. n.:.rel'j t.:.;.;.:.
3G78
Hcve::be: 29,!.979 Tape ::o. 1455 AJ.i-1
!<!..R • .!A!1.IESCN:
reqc.es<: that. e..l;e Gove:r.:.en'.:. of ~le.,.foundland t.a.'-:e over :."l.e ;:-oc.>U..al.li.r.;
cr :...i.at. scL'r.e other action occur att:er t.~at. ea:.e? :n ot:..":er ...,ordsJ ue
we up against a fairly tig-ht. dead!ine in ter.r.s of prese::"'.rL-.g -;.l;.e
facility? I am sure t.i.e hen. :.he minister u..-.C.e:st:ands t.he ccnce:n
t.ha.e that. 'olOuld cause.
:-!R.SPEA.KE?.: (Si=.msl T~e hen. Minister of Fi~~-.ce.
OR.ccr...::.:::s: :.o.r. Speaker, as ! think ·..:as
p:evious.ly staud 1when EC!:G a::d t..':e Eeeeive:: 11isit.ed. us cr. ::cve.':'.:::er
a~h they w~~ted to check out wit:.!;. us a n~~~er of ~oints. : ~~ink t.~ere
·"'e:e sever. in all. ~ey really esseno;ially just \o!ant.ed to U?date e..l;.e:;.selves
in case t.i.e ?roNinee h.1d r:,.:.;.a.~ged i:.s vie•s or what:ev<:!r. !:C'ol ::r.e of :."l.e
things t..i.ey Cici brir.g to our atunticr. - t."l.ey CiC net ac";ually, a:. :_\;.at:
ti=e,as}; fo: a definit.ille response at t!-.at time, a: t-'i.a:. rneeti::.g,_ or.e
of the pobes t:."ley diC. bring up .,.as t.. ... at t!'l.e cos:. cf ·~o:r.t..J.ll.lr.-~. '-'t'.i:il
nas ;-one on .:or a ~nsi.:!e.ra!:le ;e:i:d o! :.:.::e ::ow ar:C. :i: Ce!ie.,..e a=.ou::.<:ad
at t.. ... at dace to sc~ SZl ~il!icn, ~"la':. t~is vas ::::eco~.lng ~-. onerous
they '<~ould ~ave >;.o seek. sct::e relie:: £:::::::: it.. ~:o ae":'.Jal -.:.i.::'le •Has laid
of ne::t't. yea:,u."'1less t.•.ere 'olas sc~et..'-:ing clea:l:: in s!.g~": 1 ':..!:is =:at:':e::
would ha11e to be gone i."tt:C. :i:t was cot clea.rly st.at.eC. eit!':e: <:.."'lat ':..":e
?ro ... ·i."lce was ::::eing asked at :.hat :.=:.e,but : thir..k t.•.e !act t.'":a:. i:. ,..as
brought to our at't.eneion is a hint in t..i.at direc't.ion.
ttow the overa!.l cost of ::tot.h.balling ex-
tends bot.i. to t.":e ?..eceivar:•s cost ar.d to t.i.e actual cost out 3.t t.l-..e
plant. itself OU:: p<!:eept.icn was tf'.at the eost i.n t:er.::s c! :.he ?m:e!. ·.re:
· ... ould not. be :eques<.:ed of anyone else, tb.at t.':.is was ::eally :..•.e !i:s":
and ':!:.ey -..cu.ld. ::ot. be looki::.g fer :-elief f:om t.=:a:. siCe of things. ':'hey
'w'Ould be l::~okir.g fer ::e!.ief f:or. t.he ac:ual, technic::.! :::o:."i.t:a!.li:'IS' :::f
3679
::ove:-l::er 2.9,1979 AE-2
l:P .. CO!.L:~:s:
SSOO,COO or $600,000 a ~nth as ~he overall ccst. So ~~e a=~~~~ ac~~~::t
~1.at t.hey ·..rculC. ::.ook ~o seeL-:.q as ;,ei.ng s:t:reaC !.!"ound
t...,eir L.,~er.ti":r. • .. "'uld be ccnsi£.-rably less :.".an :!'.at. $500,000 o:
$600,000 a ~~n~~.
A Sut:P le:nenea.--y.
~R. S?!A.I(ZP.: ( S L.-.::-.s) n supple~en~ar:. :~e he~.
LeaCer o~ t..~e Cppcsition.
!1R.J1.1-t:!SC!i: this :::att.e: !..s o:!' such i:-:;o:-t.ar.ce
raise alar=:s or =.o an:r:~•i::g e.l:;e. ! ~ :>eef:.ir.g in!o=::-.at.:..cn in a q'...:l:e !acc-.:a.!.
sort: of 'J4'J. Co~.;lcl : ask ::,e C'.iniste: i! inC~ed -:.he sit.'.lat:icr:. .a::-.er;as -
and I :.ai<e i'! t.hat ECDG caz:,as l:.."'e firs: :-cr-:gagee, sl.::'l;:l:r· say as
3680
t.;ove::-.;e: 29 , 19 7~ Tap.; 1.;66 :::c - l
au~"':.or:..:y- coulC. I ask, in
!ashion? r-"ld secondly, i! :.here is, as see=:s :.o be sug:;es:.aC., so::-.e:
:ie-J!ol:..'"ldland, is it, in :ac:., or :..as consi::era!:.ion be-e:r. g.1·.ren co
aeeepeing ~~a!:. respo~sibili!:.y in order :o ensure ~~a:. ~~e :ae:..li:y
is ke?t in ;ood shape?
The '::on. t.'"l.e !t.nis:e:- '::l! finance.
be oa.inta.i.r.ed, I 3...'11 cer"!lll"'.ly no axper: ir. ':.he !.e<;al. !iel:i, and i:: a:-.:·
of -::1 colleag-.res wish ':.o expa.nC on t."lat: ! ·,.;culd :::e only :oo ;lad it
e-arta.in.!.:r I :..b.ir-'< ou.: ;osit.icn •Jould ~e - ar.d ;.oe
necessa..-; -
A;; no;~. :'.E~S?.:
0?.. .; . COL:.::.;s:
ve.::y flw.C - t...,_e.re =ould ::e changes· .. ..,:;;., "' beneficial effe:::-:. c:-. ::..~~
ref.:.ne.::-: aJ.:.os<; a:. ar.y ti~ - an.:!. :..;a: i:. :..s really an l.nC!"e.ui:-.;:;
valuable asse:. as :.:..::-.e goes on a:-.:i as ':.".e:-e .:.s :r.o:e a:.ci ::ere :.1:..<. ::..-.a:.
becoming ava.:..la.ble in t.i.e world now, as U:.ey i>ave to get. l..:l':O t.".e
consi=.e:able cost o! upg=aciing ':!:.el!'.selves :c har:.:ile t.".a:, ·..-hereas ·..,e
Has
3691
:..-.a
Tape 1466 EC - 2
CR. J. c.;:.:.::;.::;: l:lessage t."tae. e.hey r.:ay i:e se'l:..ing so::-.e
a.<; '!he ti:.o.e .
: ·.•i.ll leave it .:!.:. ,t.:."".a:..
The hon. :.oe re::':.Oer !o:: :'e:::'J. ::cv.l.
Spea<e::, - ·,.,an:. :.o ::ii::ec:. a :;:u<;:!s:..:.cr.
3682
.. :a.npcwe.:.
:L?.. J. :n:;:;:
.not in t:ne
hi~ early nex~ week a;ain.
T. :.t:SH:
Te.:ra :·:o'la.
ce:~u..:..nly in
:·L;, J. ;.::;:1:
1 .,.. .. _ ... ':,!/
! -..;ill :::e
SD - !.
det.e!':'linaticn is :oacie,a.nd io;. shoc:.ld. be ::~a.C.e in the ;·ery near f·.1t.:.:r~
I would expec':. ':..'1a<c it. ·,.-ould. be made within t..':e nex::. •.;eek, he woul:!
were
.3683
-~-:--- .:.:-. sor..e :;;;
. ·•-:.. ,. .......
::ove:J:::er 29 1 !.?i9 3:J - 2
.·!..? .• :;::;:::
:.~a: is ;a:-: o!
a '"'tole paek~ge ar.d, .H r sa:,:, r.ex-: ~o,~eek I ·..till ;;e ge~:i::g ir. ::::m::~
:-t?.. '!'. r.;;;sr::
;L::t. SP£.\."2::?.: (~-!.:'. 3i::'~";l.S)
!or Te::.'l :;ov:l.
:-:.."'.. .: . ;,:::;.;:
:he ~"l.ett:plo;t:rent lr:.s~rar.ce progra:;:::.e :cr:r.at in ar.:cu:rt. of .,..aeks
e:.ceo:e::a, i:. t..l<tat C'Hice ::: have ceen <.:l':.h :;;-,e Ce;ar:.t:"en: an=. :~r.
;..;J.;ey sir.ce t.."le :·.me elect.i:::r.. :-:e have ;;a:. -:!own J..".C. C.iseusseC
the .,.hole p::-ogri!l.!!:':'.e fc:: tne ne:c: t..'":.ree :o :.:.ve years r.d i:-.cl~cieC
r.e .... C.ecisic:-.s on l.!nem;loT=.en':. in.su:ra.r.ce. :·,·::e:-: he C:ces ar.C. c:-.1~·
~..R. '!'. :..t:s~:
! inCicat.ed a fir.al SU2?le..-.ent.ar-j :.::e
fer Terra :;ova.
can -present: t.cCay h~.s gove::-.:-.ent.'s posit.ior. a.nC. assure t.'le ....,or...:e:;:; of
:.his ?:'O'li.::ce ·.or.e:e -:hey s:.anci '-Ji:..'; res~ec-=. o:o a:.y :'eC.uc:.i..on i:: t.,;.-.e
U."ler.;ployt:".ent ir:su:-a.;.ce Zer.efi:.s as :.!-.ey ;>t.a:-.d :-. .::w, :1:::! ilecO:".d!.;,
tell the ,..orke:'5 of this ?::ovl.nce ;.;here his goverr,n:ent stanC.S .. ::.-::-:.
hon. !i.inis:.e=.
hen. tr.emter says. ':'here are a lot of items :hat ha'le !;aen C..:.scussed
•.o.:.~r. :tr. ;,u.e'f, all ir:.cl\.!Si'te. ;:..11 t."l.ese i!et".s put to~eehe:. i:.r:.r:.y
3685
Tape ::c. 1•~03
r;,.e :<on. :::e:""be: !or Ca.r::::cr.ear.
hon. :.he :!inis:.er of Ceal::."l t1r. 2c:Jse). ..~ .. "':.C : sho1.!ld pre:a:-..C!e t.~l.e
~uestion '::.y ex;:lain.i!lg c..."lat for some u:-e no~oo" <:.'1.e C.enen.l P.OS?ita!
in Ca.C:or.ea: has t:~een aC·.re:sely a:!fectec!. ty ;ollut.a."lts ':...'la'!. are
being e:'..i. ':ted from :..1-:e :.o-...T. 's ::-.2al ,?lant. Jus;. last. '.oiS':!i<; a ;e:scn
•Jert influential on t.."l.e Eoard cf Dir~ct.=~rs of the Carl::onear G"!neral.
potential for a •rery serious heal:.'"'. itaz.ar:::: in t.ne ~eneral i:CS?i;.al
t.~ere. :1y fi:st. c;:uesdor. to t.he tti::.ister i:;: is he a;.·are of t.::e
enent of t..'".e
3695
:-to'-:ember 29, 1979
!•tR. :,!CD?.£5:
have any opinion on the mat~er?
:1R~ 5?£A.KE:R (Sim::o.sl:
MR. HOUSE:
Tape No. 1469 ~-:M - 1
The hon. !1ini.ster- of Heal~h.
Mr. Spea~er, the member did w~ncion
it to ~e a couple of days ago so r took ~~e ~pport~i:y :o look it
up, and ! thank him !or t:la.k.ing :ne a•.,.a!:'e of ~"'le problem, beca•..:se i':
is a specific problem tha'l!. I ,.,.ould not: ordinarily '!:;e aware of
unless somebody was calling me a day or t•.,.o befo::e. And :he !.J.ct
i.s e..:,at there was the problem and there ;.;ere let:ters a.-:.d ~orrespondence
to ~"'le 'epar~ent of Health from l9i7 and of course it was disc~ssed
in conju."lceion wi~"l the Depct:nent of Consume:- Affairs and the
E:nviron.lne:'l.t. And :::ere has beer. i !.o: of ·>~cr:.t -=.one; :':::>r instar.ce,
in t..'lat period of ':'>~O :tears ~hey have put. in a new scrul::C1.ng
progr~~e and equ~;menc a~d they have built. a~ indoor seo~age !or
::~e oifal. !:J 19ii t.he::-e · ... e::e 3. lot. of ?::oble!:ls 1
'Je:;e less,a:'l.d last yea: '.:hey La:i one ?eriod ! -:.hink,when there . ..,.e:e
a !.ot. o:': bad odours therg.
T~.e fact is :.ha': :.he :-.osp!.cal ·.:as
built, of course, afee: <:he !ish t:~eal ::lan~ •>~as ~"tere ar.d t!"<e ·;encilato:s
!ac2 towards ~he p!.ant.
Ad!nini~t.ra~o:: is :sa:.isfied t...'iat they can li·;e wit.h ~he proOlem as
it. exis~s new. :t ·..tas only o:'l.ce t.'lis yea::, she ar:ivised ~e, a.".d :.his
is :!iss Locklar.d : t."i!l.~ - :1iss :ock.la.c.d o:- H:-s. t.o::k.lan:i - onl:r on::c
this tear there ·..-a.;; a:ty proble:n.
We are still looking a:. one oehe::
t.:.Ung, Of course1
•..te !:!"link /(OU know ,that we have to :C.eep :::onitori:tg
i':. all t.he :.ime ar.d '!:..'".e Cons'.l..--ner ?..f!airs people are c'oing that, a.-.c
we also are looki.:;.g at <:..'le possibility of ?Ut'l!.ing .a :ii:feren~ ki:-.d.
of a f.:..!.:er sys :::e::t i!'\ the .:u.:- i.'1.ta.'<!:!.
A sup~lenentz:y, :.he hon. ~e~e~
:or :a=!:onea:.
:-'.?-. ~!COP-ES:
3687
November 29, 13i9 Tape No. 1469
:.1? .. :1GOP.ES: health problem, and that
acknowledgement i:;. i:sel: ::o :ne is saci.sfying cha:. at:. leas"C
the minister is prepazed at:. ~~is ?Oint. Xy concern now is ~~a::
there is, or could be, a serious health problez and ::hac !
believe, or I happen to believe .,.,ha::: tr.e ;r.ember of the 3oard
of Directors is telling me, ~~at ~,ere is very serious concern
on :.~e part of ~~e hospital. !3 ::he ~inist:.er prepared ::o say,
is :;repa:ed co t:a.l<:e d::asti..-: ac::ior. in ::he event that ':."lere is a
heal~t prctlem that occurs?
:1.0.. S?SA:<E?. {Simms l :
!1?... ~OUSE::
The hen. :1iniste!:' of Hea.!.::!J..
:1r. S?eake!:', -:..'le Depar~en-:. c:
Heal~, has no:: =ecer~ined ~~at it is a heal~~ !J.azard. I do not
think it is a heal~~ hazard there. r:. is a comml.!..'"li'::t proble:n.,
3688
~love:r..Oe.r 29, l9i9
X:. House: meal pl~nt1 ~.d o:: ccu.rse, the:€! a::(::
a lot of materials, bad cdou:s f.rcm i~, ~alcclorcus ~ater~3ls ~cn~~s
in from practi:ally all ;arts or the Avalc~ ?e~~~sula. !t is, as :
say, a geed, viable bd.ustty.
'de do not t.,_ink i.t is, a:: this :oir.t.
in time, neither does Consumer Affairs th~ it is a iealth r~zar~,
Cut we do think t.ha: it is a bit. of a :-.uisance and that. we ·,.n.!.l ;;;e
::onsuntly monit.cring and er.suring that ':.he odo•,;r is kept 1own, ar.C.
that the plane can :u~ccion also.
M:!.. SP.::.iUCER tsL'il'lS) The l-.cn. me.'":l.ber f;: Sor.av~st.a :-<o::t.h.
MP.. ST!P..L!:-14:
a.Do1.::~ the car,::en~ar s!::uat..:.on? Has !'.e. nad a:: Of?Cr':un:.t.:.t .. ..., get:. a:-.
answer Y'=~?
.'1?.. 5TI.RI.ISG:
!1...~. SPEAKER:
3onav.:.s~a ~:or':!":.
:.m. :3TI?.LI~G:
Since -..n-.:.t.l..."lg you -:!'.a~ :.e-::te: t:..his :-.c·.t
has de·1eloped L'"l.':.O what. iML be a ::o.ajor problem of a di!'fe.rence !.::
:oncep': l:et.weer. :he Federal G;::,ve:-nnen-: and our Hewfound!.3::d ·Hay of
l~!'~ ~ne way of Coir.s :hings.
what. -:.hey ;.;ant to C::: at. :he feC.e.::al le:vel 3.nd whac i.s qo.:.ng :c
happen wit!: our NeW:::::undland ·.-ay of l~fe a:-.d way :;f Co.:.;:g <:.~:.:-.cs?
~t=. Speaker, : :-.ave r.c.: taker: <:l':;.,e:
ac:.~on. :::;:ear., ! ~·rB. =e::;eived, outside o! :.":.e {:::;;;, :r.e:::ber-'s i"lt~z-:;:a:.i.::m
3699
Novet:1her 2?, l9i3 PK - 2
Hr. Di..'tn:
with him, ! i-:.ave received ::apresent:aticna !:om at:.he.: t:cn. me::'lbe:-s,
and I have received some ot:her in!ormat:ion. But u:::.t:il I gee a :eply
from the hen. ~. At:key, t:hat ~s. ~it:.h respect: =~ the request:
h~. t:hen ~ do not !eel t:hat: ot~e: act:ion is necessary ~t: =~is poL'tt:
in t:ime.
MR. STiru.I~G:
MR. SP::A..ICE:Et i.SI!,t.'15):
for aonavis~ Nor~h.
W.. S'r'I.?.L:~G:
A supplemen~ry, ~x. Speak~.
A final supplementary, :he l".cr:.. rr:embe:
Thank you, :.!X. Speaker.
are t:.all<:ing a.i:out a ve:::y serious ;:robla.ttt of w.:.despre.ad ::or.cern, ar:d
we do have peo?le •,/no have been told -:.c pay back as r::uc';-, 3.S Sl::, co::;
people who are on unemplo~1nene i!".sura."tce, · ... ill he now agree
e."lat: t:hi.:s i;; se:::ious enough t:.ha::. :-.e .:should :::ont:.lC't: one of 'n.i.s ccl:.eag-.z.es
in Finance cr t:he Premier 'CO geo: suf£i:::ien~ :· .. mds set as!de so :.t";.a:.
it:. is an appeal on behalf c!: our way o: life?
ur.der<:ake e.o do t:hat:7
3690
!-l.:: •• S?EA.:..:E?.: (Sir.:..-.s)
and :-ta.npowe:.
:-L~. oz:;:::
Tape l4 71 sc - l
eo the hen. ::-e::-.ber, r Co not t..':.;.:-Jo; i:. i3 necessar.t a:. :.."lis s:oin:: J.n ci~
...:ntil ! get a :eply !rom the hen. H.:. At-key. When r Co get. a r~pl.y,
I c..'link :hen action can be t~en. I a.ssu:m th.at. :,t:. A.tk.ey w::..ll gi-:e l':':e
a reply t:o rr<:J t:.elegra.:n aarl:t next "Jeer... !!' : do not:. get. a :eply, :..'len
I "Jill be i;,. cont:.aet .,...it:..'l hi::t directly. ne has !:lee:-. noe..i!ieC.. :..1-J.e
federal Xin.ist.er cf ?"inance (:-tr. Crosbie) has been r.oti!ied a.. ... d :.'lings
are unfold.i.''tg as ':..~ey should.
A suppler.en :arey, ~=. S;:ea.t!er.
a !i;,.a.l 5\.l?Plement:.ar':', t.:.nless t.'1e :ten. <:.."I.e :net:".be: for =al.e Ver':.e -
White Say (ar. ?.ideou:) '"'ishes to yield.
The hen. t.'le ~~er for a~e \ier':.e -
;mi :e Bay.
:!or t..'le !.t..ird.st:er cf Ccnsl.: ... ,·.e: ;..!!a.i::s anC. Envi:onmen:. (!-!:s. ~e...,ncck) .
The :n.inist:.e: is aware, l am s~re, t.ha:. at t:"le ?resent ~=a, ::".:.blic :-.ea::i~gs
a::e bei:1g ~eld t:..'l:ouqnouc ce:~ain parts of Labrador so ~"tat :..~e pcbl~: in
~'lat. a:ea. t=>.igh't:. have an oppertuni'='f to present it..s v:.ews • .,.:.:.."t rega:d. t:.o
t.."te envi::on::'lental it'!pact. of t:.."l.e K.i.t:.t..s-Mid1el.:.n 6:!-..·eiopeent:.. Could the
ministe: tell :he House when she anticipates that. th.ose public h.ear:.r.gs
:ni;ht be CO::':j?let.ed. and ·•:-.en t..'le ::tinister antic.:.pa.:.as rece.1.v:.ng ':..'1-e repo:t.?
and E.nviromnent.
MRS • ~n"F.COR<
The hen. t.he !iinister of consur.ar Af!ai::s
Xr. Speaker, yes, t..'lere has been a scnedule
set for t.."l.e public hearings. They are to com:-.e::ce on l:ece!:".Ce: 3::d. 3..'1d t."tey
.,..ill be at. Ha.pp:• Valley • Gcose Bay on cecer:-.:::~er lr:! and 4:.."1, ae ~tcr't..':..te:st
?.iver on Oece:r.ber 5t:'l, at Ma.i<.kovik on December 6t!l a."''d 7th and at Postville
on Decei:".ber 8t."l.. T~is is a :.cneatl.ve sc::1edule and if ...,e finC. :iuring ':.."i.C
p::ocess of ':.:'.ese nea.r:.:-.q:s "::'.a':. :..'lis sc:-.ed•.!le C.oes not give suf!:i::ien-:. ti~,
really ::a.nnot S::l'f just:. how soon :..::•ey
3691
~ovember 29, 1979 Tape 1471 EC - 2
~ill Oe cocple:eci beca~e it will
depend on :.:,e nur..be:s of pe:ople attend.ing a."l.d the a::ount of in!or.:o.ation
l:hey are re.ques-;.ing. Buo:. I ·.to~d 3Zl.Y t."\at l?OSSi.l:lly ·..rit.".in :en d.ays
should take care of the p~l~c hea:ings. And :.~en, of cou:se, we. have
to wait for a :epor't. frcrn t.1.e ;hai::nan ef :..:,e board. and. t..'tat :-epor-:.
eoones to t.~e :::inist:er. Then, when t.r.e ru.nist:er gets t..'1at re?Ort, it
is evalua:eci am! :..'1en t.~e :n.inister ::akes a :epor.:. to Cabinet..
HR. R.!CEOt..'T: Mr. Speaker, a. s~ppletr.en:a:-y.
1-Ltt. SPEA.:<.::?.: (Simms)
for aa.ie Ve:-te - W1:.i ~e Say.
t..1.e minister has given us :-eally brir:.gs out t.1.e crunch of t.'te problem.
T!'le ::oc--?ar.y, r u."l.ders"":and, in t.'tis environ:.ent.al i~ac"": stat.=::· .. .:H·.:., :na.-..es
t:.--:e following s:ater..er.::.: "'r':.e agree::ler.t" - t.'1e agreemen:. to ciev~lop, t.":.at.
is, to go a..'"lead and :iavelop t."le C.e?QSit:S "The a.greement is sul:lject to
gove:::n.tre.::."C a:1d reg..Uator..: approvals ~ot."l in C:anaCa a:-.c. :ll.ir.oi.s a."1ci Z.eir.g a;::le
t-o success :''.:.lly r.e;ot.!..a.:.e :..'-te ::ecessa.:y ::e:.a.i.led a.;ree~er.'":s p::..:::r :.c :.."le
3692
s:, - l
~ot ;o ateaa a~ all:
an .:.ssue?
36S3
:'<!pe :;o. 1..;72
:i:e for one quick :;.:.:.es<:.icn.
:·IR. 3. :~'EA.?..Y:
of Consu:::er Ai!airs a.r.C. E.:-.viron::::ene, 3i:. ':he ::ewfou::.C:la::C p.she~en
food a.r.d ;Ulied ?torke:s :Jn.lon nas ::.ade some 'le:J se:i.=us acc::.sat:ions
concerning '=.:1.::! ;:ost: of ::.i•rir:.g in Labrador il.."l.d. bas ::tade ::e,?::~sent.;;.e.!.on
to the l:'l.inis<:.er's C.epa:t=.e."l: ':.o have an L"\.Vest:iqation, a full-tled~<;d
ac<:.ion, • ... ·:-.at ki::.d of ac:icn a::d ·.;:1en 'He ::an ex;:cc': a ::epo::':. or: ::. ... is
:.al:::JC.or ar.C ~ere .J.re ::e:':..lin peo;.le up th~?:::e ,....::o are c;:,e:kir.q -:.:::::
3694
:,;over!::l:!r 29, 19 i9 7ai?e .lc. l~i3
and if there !.5 a s:..:;ni!icant ci.i!!erenc:e,
t..'1en ',,;e will try ':.o cleter:nine '.;hat :..'l.at cli!!erence is, whether i':. is
:e available eo the people in Labrador.
~m. SPEAK£?,: (SI:' .. '1S) Orcie r, please!
'!!le tir.e for Ciral Questions has ,:xpi:~cL
P~£SE:1TI!-iG PETIT!::~s
The hen. l'!'.er.ber for the Strait. o! 3elle
!~le.
:-tR. ;: • R:.:CERTS:
FOSit.ion as I sta."\c! tc ;?resent a ?ef:.ition !or a Cist=ict: ot:.. ... er :..>:a:.
tr.e one '...-hich I rppreser.t in t.."le i':ouse of Asse:-bl:f. :::t. is not ;.c.?ro;e:
under e.e rules, of coursi:o, but i::. i::; unusual. 'les':.e:::a:l atte=:tcon a
com:-.itt:ee of citizens from tr.e cot:".mt:l".ity cf C:larke' s Sea-::"• in tJ;e
Cist.ric: of fo:t Ce UravE c~r.e to st:::e :re ar.C. askef =.e <:o presen::. ::...'1~
petition. I ga:re notice :o !l'Y her .. f=ie!".;i, :.:-.e rer.ber for ?crt. Ce
~:a•:e Cist:ric:. (!!r. ccllir.s) ::::at I wculC. t-e :!!::l.ng so. : 3en:. hit:~ a not::e
he •.•culd wish to na\.-e J..t.
I de :-.ct. t...'tink h.a is !'..lssy.
::? ..
not. 1buc t.'"le COtt:.i.:.tee cert.ainly felt that t.ne ·..;ould not =:.e fu.ss7 a.-.cl
t:.:.'tat is why t..l-;.ey" took t."l.e •mt.:Sual step of cor.i!l~ to ~e
on the other siC.e of the Eo use.
the met:'.be:
'l:he peti:.ion is signee. :.y 373 citizens
o:!' tile community cf Clarke's 3each. I Co not J:.,ow t:.he ?O?ulat.ion of
"Che ::or:.unity of Clarke~s Seac.'l precisel7 1 bu':. I would tre.:l<:c:e, :'..!".
S?eaker, :.."tat :l" . .:!.t is a ,,ery lar;e proportion ,possitl;t ;;;o pe= cent. to
50 ;:er cent. of :..!le adult j:)Cpulat:.ion of t.hat. cc:r.:r:cr..it.y. The ~:ayer
of :he ;:eci:..i.cn, ! t.."lir.k, :-!.r. Spea.ker, St,t.s fc~"1 qui-:.e succ.i..r.c:.ly
and clearly the ;;:u:pose a.nC. t."l.e ir.ter..t. of :..1.,:;, s:eo~le ·..::-.o S!.<;r.e:! l'::.
Per:t.1ps I cculC be pet"':l"itt.ed to re<l.d. it. in presenting :..'le pe':.!.t..:.c:-..
3695
Nove.tr.Oer 23 1 l9'i9 Tape :.ro. 1473
Conce~~ion Bay Hlghway ~h=o~gh Clarke's aeac~. and it says,
"~'hereas we :.he unCe;:signed .,.,.ere not. suificient.ly inf<:~r':led about.
;)W - 2
t:he ::ouncil' s - and that the ::ouncil of the town of Cla.:-ke' s Seac!'l -
the council's ex~enclecl affort:.s t.o have a t.."'l..r.ae: lane highway pass
direc~ly through ~~e cene;:e of our ~cwn, the Wlt!'lholding of
which iniormaeion acco~~ts for ~~e lateness of this protest.: and
whereas ,.,.e are in t.ot:.al Cisagreemen:. ·,.i':h :his projec::. whi:::-. is
mos't :::ert.ainl.y ~tOT" - and the wot'd 'not.' appea:s in capital le:.-;e:s -
"NC'I''' i.n our eseimation in ehe ~esc .:.nt.erests o:: the to·..m cf
Clarke's Beach: and whereas ehe c;:eat.ion of a et:ee lane d.:-ive
~~=ough ~~is a;:ea is det.=i~nt.al :o ~e safety of pedeser.:.ans ;o1~;
eo places of busin~ss ~~ci ?~lie builCings ~here; and wher~as
t.he ::rea~io~ of a third lana, be i-=. a hol.dir..q la:".e or ':)~he:",.,.:.se,
the ~ain h.i;h•J~ays fr:::n ':he acces.i .:-oads of C!.a.:-:-:e's Eeach; a::.i
whereas ot:.er tcwn ccu .. cils, Ha:bcur Grace
·3696
November 29, 1379 Tape No. 1474 ~~ - l
:.,1'),. RCSE?.TS:
wi::.": tile safe-;7 of their own citizer.s and ha•Je :.:-.erefo::e pr:ov.:.=ed
parking facilities ar.d '..ta1%s for ;eC.est:r i3.ns and :hey are SO!'
concerned- aqain the word NCT !.n ca?i!:al let:~r=- ?:i:narily '.4i':.h
the smooth flow of ~rough traffic, be it clearl7 understood that.
we stand in opposition to all effor1:.s to pr::~ceed •,;i:..l<t >:!'.is ;?rojec:
as planned. And ~e affix our names to ~1is petition strongly
urging Council, ar,p ~e government depar~~nts involved, to
have :he highways so :na.rk~C. as ::o preserve t.he la:1e no'..t used :or
Sout.l<t bound :.:attic as an area tor park~ng ~d Fedestria~ traffic
lane highway as before.''
petition nas been signed by nearly 4C~ c1tizens of =~e :o~ of
Clarke's E.ea::h. :: ~now '::!'te a:ea ::airl~· \o'ell. :•ta.r.y hen. :!err..bers
through the zomm~i-;:y.
and got: :10 sa-:.is:action. ':" gather ~'1ey r.ave met •..ti':h :.'1e Mir".iSt:er
to see the Preml.er ar.d had absolutely no suc::ess at all in ar:::-2r.c;.:..::g
ar. interview ~i::.~ ~1e ?renier to ?resen-;: '::heir :cncer~s ::o hi~.
I know ";hey speak !or ~e people who signed e::u.s ?et!.tior., obviously
vie~ this matter as one of ;rea-;: serious~ess, o: great i~port, sr~
of great urgency. As ! underst:ar.d 1 ';.he D~par~ent c: Tra~spor~ation
crews a.re in :..1e area >:oday laying :.'1e :ellot..t lines; i:~ !ac-:., t.'1ey
~ere :..'ler~ ::esterday ar:d ~-.e d.ay be:ore, anC. -;:he people c.1me o'..!t
ancl bloc~ed ':he::-., stood in fran':: of -;:he:n, a:-.:i ':!:e mer-. ·"'er:-:. a•.;a~·
and did not: ?res s ai':.ead ·...-i :h t."le work.
I would ask that the ?e'::ition =e
.3697
November 29, 1979 Tape !To. l4i4 !'iM - 2
:.l.R. ROBERTS:
This is a provincia! highway we are speaking o:. ! woul~ hope, Sir,
t."le minister, a."ld t.."le :nember-a!"'d let r.:e say ::.'"Ia:. :. have no desire
:o embarrass t.1e oe~~er, :. realize this is not sor.~t..~ing calculated
to ~in brownie points from him :or ~~. :ue I am responding ~o a
request made to me by t..~ese ?eople, ar.C ehey have consi~ered e~eir
request: and upon consideraeion of it felt this '"'as :;,.e ~ay ':.hey
•.taneed ~is petiti:m to cor.te ':o ':.he House .
. ,..ill respond to t.h.is per.i:ior.. ! think l.t .lS a reasonai:;le request
:rom what ! k.."1ow of it. And ! 'lencure to say :h.at i:' there is :10
positive response, ar.d i:: at some poi:-.:. we are so ::.nfor':.\.!.!'l.a:e as to
have an accident in which somebody is hure, or even idlled, t:."'.en, £2r,
t.."lat will be much too lace :o act then. I thin)( that what. t."''e
depar<::r.ent pr~posed to do, as ! uncle:stand it:, is eho.!'oughl:; u..~reasona.bl~.
: think. it would be eminen't.lt' more ~ou..-:d, >!.r. Speaf;e.::-, if t:he -:!epa.t"':.":l.en":.
•.tould do as t:he pet.it.ione.::s request and ca.::-::-1 on Wl.t:h the roaC.
petit:ion. -r pre.sent: tl".e ?et:i':.i.or:, Sir. The!'e being ::o pages :;:,
present it:,Ou!: I P:"ese:-.t: it ani-way.
SC.'1.E f.ON, !-11:''1BEP.S : Hear, hear!
MR. S?~KER (Sir.~s~ The hon. :::em!::e:- !o:- ?or-:. de S.::ave.
:.m.. C:JL:.INS:
t:he r:~e~er fer t!:e St::-a.:.-:. of Belle i:sle (:1:::. Robe:=:tsl f:;,r ;:.ving oc
prior notice of t.."le petition. ! was quite a·.;are -:Jf -.:he :;:et:it!.on
and 'the coneents of it a.."ld ! have done quit.e a bit: of research
into :his matter ova:: the last: t.hree or !cur ~nt:hs.
There are a couple of points I would like to
tt:ake here. They sa:r in t.'1ei.r petit:ion that ':.hey have not :,een inior.::eci
of the Cor.:rn.it':ee. They '"'ere ·rerf lax i:'l. w"l.is :t".at':.er. The firs-.: :-equest
s.lx years at;o and t:..'ley have lef"t: i ':. •.:.r.-:11 -.:h.e las':. :nir.ut.e, tmti.l t!'.a
pavement. ·,.;as :,ei:-.g laid, before the'! made any mocion o:- haC a:;.y lnpu-.:
3698
nove~ber 29, 1979 Tape No. 1~74
MR. COLLINS : into ~t or even were concerr.ed
as to ~hat was going down there.
How they can say ~~at a holding
l~~e is hazardous ~hen ! counted twenty-seven holding lanes coming
in the Kenmoune Road ~~is afternoon, and they say one ~,era would
.be a hazard to the people, ! :;annat agree .,.i:.'-1. it.
I have been meeting wi:., Council,
mt - 3
We have had !our separate meetings concerning ~,is ~tter, strictly
this :r.ateer1 and Council .J..::.a in full support., unani:::ously 1 f•.JllJ'
supportive of ~~is :rave. So I do not understand why the Co~tte~
is petitioning against it. I.-:' :-..,ere ,..as more checking Cone into .i.t.,
:: t.hink e::.ere would '::e an ulterior mot.ive as -:.o why -.:hey do not ·.o~ant
~is lane there. And I am afraid I have to agree with Co~~cil ar.d
the Depar-:::ent of Transpor':aticn, 'liho surveyed :.his, 3.nd th.e satee.y people
who surveyed i~. Eve:-yone has come <;.o the agreemer.e. that t:.his
would be a great:. help to keep t.l-te t1cw of t:.raf.:ic golng th.ro•1gh
Clarke's Beach 3...'ld t.'"le.re ~s :-to sa!e:•; h3.:a.r:= i=wolved. 3c ! se.and
in -::.y supper!: of :-..'"le Council on this :r..at':.e.r and t.'-:.e Depa.r-c."'ner.t of
':'ransportat.ion.
T!'lar.k 'JC'.:..
3699
Noveober 29, ~973
MR. ~lA.RSHAU.:
read.L"l.gs today.
Ta~e !lo. l474
CRDE?.S Of TP.E DA:£!
The hon. ?residen~ of ~he Cour.cil.
Motion ~. W: have -:.'1e first:.
~~tion, ~,e hon. ?:esident ~i
Treasury Soard to int.rod'.lce a bill, "An Act. To Amend !he :.ter.We:s
Of The House Of Assembly (Reti::ir.g AlL:Jwances ; Act,~ c:arrieC..
(Bill no. 6a l
On mot.ion, Bill tlo. 63 read a
first. time, ordered read a se.:cnd t.i:-.e on tcmorrow.
3700
~over-be:- 2'?, 1979 ':'ape :-:o. 1475 A.H-1
:1ot.ion, :.1-:e hen. t±:e :·ti:tisee:- of
Indc.striai :evelopr::er.t to i:t<:::cduc~ a ::i.!.l, ''.t..n Act ':o R:l~.:y, Conti::":
A.."''d Burgee :E'ish !ndust:"ies Limited Ar.C Ct.,.ers," ca.=ried. (3ill :<o. 7:)
On :n.otion, 3::..11 :;o, n :-2ad a first
t~e ordered reaC a second ti~e en toecrrow.
Mof":ion, t.~e !len. t..\;e :-tin is t:er of
Jus't.ica to in::oduce a !::ill,";..-. Act. To A:::end The Cc~par.ics Act,''
(3ill :io, 7J)
On ~ctio.r., E.:.ll ~:o. 73 read .:1 !irst
ti=.e,ord~red read a S:!cond ti~e ~n tc=.crrcw.
On mcticn ~~at t~e r.ouse resolve
itself into a Co=~ittee of ~'le W~ole f.ouse on ei!l Sa, Mr. Spe~er,
le::e <:.'le Chai.:.
~L.t\.ROBE?..':'S: :Joes t . .'·.e clerk rear:! '!..~e r:.it!.e
or is it in crder f:r c:e to say a ..,-or: or t:.•o as a suggest.ic:1.i' :
si:::ply \."ant to suggest.,i:! my lear.:ed f::ienC. t.l,e Goverr..m~nt: :~ou.se
~ave on occasion in t.r.e pas~ taker. sections ~y ;:cu.p~ngs i~st:eaci c:
~y asking ~~e clerk eo call each one. I have s;cker. t.c cr.e c::
two of :ny colleagues ar:.d ! t:.."lir.k .,..e will be p:epared,if reu .,...anteC
to,say in decades, in groups of ten, we ..... culd ~e prepared -
A!l ECN .~'-!BER: Division::;.
If I :~.ay -
! ~ nee sure I wouli ~gree t.c
have it: dcne !::: c.:.visi::~ns. !:o. ':!-.e. -=.ivisions a.:-e verJ la:;~. I e::.
sor~;. I woul~ not agree tc ~.at.
3701
!Tover..l:er 29, 1?79 :'af:e ~lo. !.475 ;..};-2
:·!?., ?.:22?:'S: Sott.e of t..;te Ci. visicn.s , :::. O.ai.::tr a~,
ha•te fif~ s~c':ions i~ ':.~er ar.C t.J:-.at. ·.toulC. =:ear. - ':leer'! are cnly ':e=:. cr
i::. - . will go just as tr-Jickly. ·,;c should spend s:c=e ':.l.l':'<C on !.~;isla tier.. '!':-:e
~ouse is r.ct s~ply a sausage processi~g =~chine. r ~,cw ~y !earne~
frienc! would agree .... i t:t ::!e.
I t."link t .• 'le way to do it, we ::an
do it in ~:ens :Cut perhaps ....-e can .:neve, fo= insta.~ce,',.ohen ..,.e ge-:: int.o i-:
now ;resently,t."le Ccr::ait.-:ee, t..,e first. amenC::::ent t:."lat! see is o:-te i-:1
Section 10.
amend.":!en e is
can I gee ~~e hen. Qa~ber's at.ter.::.icn?
for insta::ce, 3ect.icn l'J: ':·:!! co1.:l~ go i..n !:locks of t.en
but per!'la;;s I could :::eve t.~.at .:tou kne-w, Sec::icn l -:o 9 ?ass and -.:he:-.
you can call Sec-:.ion 10 a~d ·.;e .... :...:.!. get in ':.'len to :l":e ~enC.:en:::., 5u-;
I will Co i~ in ~locks of te~.
~P., ?O:!ERTS: Sure. Ckay,
M_-o •• ?.08 E:F.':'S : And if .,...e sr:ould. :r:.iss an
a:::en:::.en:::., obviously leave to revert. ....-ill be: given. ·..;'! :nay not. like 't..":e
bill bl..:t. '-"e are not going t.o !::e t!".ac. :u.:::.-picke~·.
!!..'=' •• ?,CE£?':'5: ! ·,.oonder if i:::. WCI.!ld ~xped.i:e
could e.:.e r:.u:::t:e: ! see ':..~e :r.in.ist.e: is fulfilling :::.r.e !•..:.'ic~ons of
apage. I t.,_a.."lk t..~e :=~.inis<:er z:.n.d r 'Nould say :hat he is net nearly as
efficient ncr nearl':' a.s at<:ractive as :::..'".e pages,
A:1 HO:l.HE!-t!!ER: Co we have copies?
MR.RCBER'!'S: I have or.e cop)'.
3702
:love:;.ber 2.9, 1979 1 + ~-.. ~/0 l::C - 1.
Shall clauses one :.r..rotlqn nine ce.::::y?
~3.. STI?.:.I!iG:
':he h.on. the ~eo.ber for aona.vi:tta No::t.1. •
.'1R. ST!?.LI:~~: !1::. Chaicr.an 1 in clause two, as :: ::n.C.ers -=ar.:i
i:, where it sets out ~~e defini~on, ~~ere is no definieio~ of a city, ~d
yet, when ·.,.e get eo S!:!c:'tion 309 i::1. talking a;:out t..1.e ancilia.-ooy powers of a
regional gow=nmen:, Section JJ9 (:) (ll (a) in effect., . .,.i~-.. the approval of
Cabinet ~,e regional governr.ent may "acquire ~~y of ~~e !ixed asse:.s of
~1.e :'lunicipalities and ci:ies necessa:y for ~~e 1!Xer::ise of tile powers of
t..'-le reqional ec·mc:il, wit: . ."1out COC1Pensation ~u:: inclucii.ng ;..-..e ass:..::p:.ion of
t.he liabilities a.nd obliga:.ions associated <~.l.+:.."t o:.':.ese a.sset.S;'' : a:n no:. a
lawyer, bu-:. ?resu.."'ta.bly, si::.ce you have ;iefi:leC. cou.~cils a.."lcl cotrr.ur.ity ::c.:..~cils,
:he c.i:.y should also be defined in :hat lis:. o! ~fini-:.ions.
The hon. :.."le !1inist.er of :·tuni:ipal r.f!ai:s
and Housing.
!1 .. ~. ::, "tii~!::SO?.:
reference ~ a city woulC refer :o ci-:.ies de!ined ~der ~~e :i~J ot 5~. :c~n's
Act or -:..."le c.:.:.: of Corner Srock Ac~.
th.a hen. t-...._e :r.e:::ber !or t:.'le .5t.rai-:. of Selle Isle,
Thank you. !n ot.'ler words 1 ~as l.t:. !ol.l.::r .. ·
~"len 1 Hr, Chairma:. 1 t:•a.t t.'le governeent. USl.r.g t.'le po;o~r '.!.•de: - Secti.c:-. JOS
was it?
Regional co~cil.
HR. ?.OSE?.':S 309 (2) could aut..'1.ori::e - Lo!t. ~ assc.:te
a. regional council ~o~ere to be crea:.ed for, say 1 tile Hort:.hea3t r.valon area -
and I would ~"link it a fair sugqes:.ion t..~at. t.~a: is a li~ely area in res?ect:.
of which a regional cot.:.:1cil :nig:o:. be created - -:..'-lat. using t:..".e power cor-.fe=:ed
~der 5ect:.ion 309 {2) (a) and (b) t."lat :.."le Cabinet. can =ake ~~ order
affecting t.."le cit'! of s::., .John's a.nd :.."le ci-:.y o! Corne= Srock even-
you ~now, ~'lat l.S a quest.~on. i!, in fact., it.=~~. w~~~'l is wna::. :..'i.e
:ninist:.er seer-s t.O in-.;?ly and '..rha::. t.'1e ac:. '..rould seem to a•.:t."to::ize,
3703
tlove:.ber :29, 1979
MR. ?CEE?.TS:
Tape , .-~ .... ;Q EC - 2
t;,."len, o! course, t.:.1.a~ imcc::Y.s i:: 3.
cocked hac ~~e oinister's s~ate~enc on seconC readi~g ~~at ~~is bil!
Cid no~ a!fec~ ~"le city of ~t. ~ohn's and ~e ci~/ o! =orne: 3:ook,
because in fact o:..1.is l;iill, if aclopt.eci, would give t..~e Ca.Oinet t..-:.e
power t:o wipe out tile cit:/ of St. John's and tb,e Cl.ty of Corner Brooi<
i.."t everrt.1.ing except natr.e, and ':..~at. 12.y be a reC:uc~io ad a.Zlsur:iu.'rt,
or whatever ~1.a~ par~cular porase is, Out ie is cer~ainly no~ an
i:nposs~iliey. Md, o! cou:se, : have long ~ad ::.e theory that if
tne governrtent. Co not need powers in leg:.sla:.;.on, ':..'ley ought no:: to
tai=.e t!'l.em. So I raise t:he point \••it.'t t."l.e minister ar:.d if, ~n fa::~.
it .:..s not the gcve:r:.:::e::.t's i:"lten':ion :o af!ec: :..~.e city of ~t • .:co--.'s
hit:~. at :tis word, of course - t..'1en surely t.he act oug!\'": '":0 be a::".er.C.e~
could. !:::e used to c:-ea-:e a regional council which wo.:ld ha~..-e ~~e powe:-
Sa::ion JJ9 and crea:ing ~ region ~~d giving ~~a~ reg~onal governmen~
';he power eo acqw.re :.."le ~sets .,.,i:!-.out. ::ot:pensation - ':.,_a: Cces =-.ct.
eo use regior.al services, :o assess :.u.~ic:.:;:ali':ies ~,.c. cities. You know,
t..'1at is ':.he whole point of it. A."ld r :..":ir .. < :hat is a ver; ser~ous fla·.;
in t.1.e whol<!: bill and i:. is on~! ""hi.ch, in t:.~e 'Jie"" cf myself a::.d a
we t..,.ink it. really goes to ~'le heart of ':.he ;over~~nt's er.:.ire ?Ositio~.
And if, in fact, ':..,.e bill says ,,..hat '"'e fe:ar it i':'oeat:s, tr.en, Sir, : ...,cul.d.
vem:.u:e :o say <;.':at :.,.e ::irUster's state:"le.c.t on se:ond reac..i.ng is :1.ct.
correct and the House has ~een unCer a misa?prehension on se=onci reaCin~
second re~ciing relateci :.o, of couzsa, all :..~e general provi~ions c: :.~a
ac::::, :."l.a: :.'<is act does not. cover the cit.y of St. :oM's as i.:. re:.aees
3704
~!? ... 1. Ht.:~OEO?.:
... t;. is a :egi~:tal (~na.I!Cii;.le).
(Inaudible) gene:al. !t is one o! t!-:.e r;.air-.
:;lreceC.ents.
:,:P... N .;.,r:u:::sc:a:
clacse is aecu=a:e, he implies
3705
Nov~~er 29, :979 Tape 1477 ?K - -
!1r. Wi.."ldsor:
tha.t. we ::auld '..'if:e out <:he c:::y. ~hat. is hardly so, Pecause :.he
Act. st.ates very ::learly the regional ;o•.;e::s that :::ay !:e C.esigr.a:.ed
to a regiunal council.
MR. aQSERTS: r sa!.d ·.,ipe it out. in eve::y:hing ::::.!t
r~e, arA <:here will be precious little left.
No, no. We could net J::ecause you 'o<iOUlC.
only take over regional facilities.
HF.. ?DEER':'S: Yes, a:;.d. a regional !'aci.li:.:; is .,...t!a:.?
cou.l:! the rn.L'1is<:e:: t.ell ·.,:,s, :-t.r. Cha!..:=.an, 'olha-:. a ::egl.cnal :acility is?
:·t?.. W!~'"DSO?.:
quite clearly ~'\ Section 305.
MR. RCEERTS: Yes, ::: know.
care t:.o :.ali:. a!::lout . .,.hat t:hey are? Because, of cc~se, seceion 305,
&. Chair::r.a:~., as the :ninister •.,.ill r.ave to adrnit,!.ea.ves it: la:-ge!.y
i.'l t:he eye of the .beholde!.", and the beholder .!.n :.!:.is case .is :::.o:e C.a:Cir.a::,
o:;:erat.i.cn of .::egiona1 - and l.t:. uses t:.he. -...-or::i "region,:.l~' so ·.;e go
back ::o ::he cla'.lse :;ow ·;::;eiore ::he C::mmi::t.ee. You.:: fionour way l:::e
wonde:-:.ng wi'.et.he.r all of :..'lis is J:egional. ?.i.ghe? 'rihe::ne.!:" a.:.l ;:,£
this is relevan::.
Well 1 t!-,e '.o'Or::! ":-eg:.?n" .3-ppears e!;:::ughout:
th.is. ~o·...- '"'hat:. i3 a region? A :-egion is sctr.e::;,.i:~.g incor;:ora:.eC. ;.:..-,der
this Ac:. as a region.
gcve::n:nent sat· is a regJ.on. And r would say to che ti..•uster t.:tat:. it:. is
not impossible t.hat. t~e sovereign, indeper~ent: ~unicipality of the local
improveme.'l't discict of Hogan's ?or.d could be decla!'ed a region
under the powe=s of this bill. you k!1ow.
Now :!:a:: may sound absurd, but
I ...,ill t.ell you legally it locks :ne ::o as if tha:. is ;ossible. And
while ! do :;ot L<te~d :.o be the be all ~'\::i ::ne en::i all cf ::~e Bar, !
pret.e::C. t.o have Cl!" hoid r.l:f$el£ out: :;o ru·..-e :! des::-ee ..... c:~:::pet:ence'
3706
Nove.m.ber 29, 1979 Tape 1~77 PK - 2
!1r. Eober~s: ;reat or s::all. And, you ~now, ~e ~culd h~ve
.1 regional goverr.ment t::at: ::ould just wi;;e out. the ci~y o:: s:..
John's ~,a the city of Corner arook. I have now driven ~he
~is~er fro~ the C~ittee. ! clo not know what that ~eans, but
~not going eo wait here, you ~ow, while the minister does us
the discourtesy to leave. : ~ve ~~e Commit:.ee adjourn, ~~. :hair=an,
unti.l the minister re!:'.u:ns <:o put his bill th=ough Cott'r.lit:.tee.
ill!. ROBERTS:
!ffi. Y.ARSHALL:
pro~ly gene to -
MR. ROBERTS:
Mr. Chair:na.n, on ~1.at. motion.
Adjourn the debate.
! think the ~~n. minister, ! thin~, has
'<Jel1 1 maybe ::e is, bu~ he :iii :-'.oc - ::·cu
know, let us wait a :ninute or two then -
Yes,sure.
M..~. ?.CBER'IS: - because I do ::.ot. t:!'link he :.~ean:. a."'.y
discou.rees:r but he went: and he is gor:.e.
No. I ~~ quite sure he did not.
~. ROBERTS: ~ell, I ~ill wit:hd:a~ ~y motion by leave
and ',.j'e '.;"ill JUS~ s-:~:-.d a..=ou...-'ld for a r::inute u..."ltil the mi."'.is:e.= gets r.ere
a::.d can d.eal '..;"ith the mat:.t:.er, because r t!unk it .:..s a '-1ery serious ~at:.";er
L"ldeed, ar.d r a.t:t :lot pet:t:.l..:og;J.n;. I mean,: am ?tepared,a:-~ a ::.umber
of :ty :::olleaq".J.es are ;orepared,! ::.l'!.i."!.k, to :-.ave sorre consiCeraL::le
debate on this ?a.=t:.icular ?a:t of it, because this, Sir, is a very
important :::at:te.=.
Now the tr~nis~~ may well ~Ave wished
to consult, I think, we r~ve juse d=iven a garbage
cart right throuqh the bill, and ! expect the mL"'.iste= might want tc
have a ~rd, =~~ ! think we are going :.o need ~~er~~ents.
Here is the minister no;.,·. Can e::.e
minist:er spea~ to ':he ,;;oint that: ! just raised? r men, r ·..-ill say
it agai::. for h~. The d~iini:icr:., the ;oowe.=s of regional goverr~~ent
3707
Nov~~er 29, 1979 ':'ape 1477 ?K - .3
AN HCN, 11E..'1EER: Yes.
Ma. ROBEP..TS: That is fine. That l.S duck
soup. That is ducky. Well ':.he.'t, what is the · .. ·crd
"regional"? Well "regional" is not defined. The dra!tsperson
has not seen !it. to give us a definition of the word "regional". the
adject.ive. But. the draftsperson or persons, t.he dra.f't.S people
if there is such a phrase, have given us a de!inition of the noun from
which the adJec-:.ive .t.s de:ived.. And the de!i..'tition of the noun
is !ou.-:.d, :-1=. ChaL~n. in the very clause before the CCr::nl.-:.tet! ~o,,;,
seceicr. 2 ~:n) "regl.on mear.s .in area incorporat.eC. under this Act as
a region." ~ow that is like the f3:X•.!S definition of l.:..."t'.nograp!-.y
ar~ oceanlogy, and I knew ~~e ~"liSter appr~ciates the definition,
but f~r the benefit of those •.o~ho do r.ot., an ccear.cgrat:her is a !resr-..... at..:!"-
I am sorry, ! saltwa~er lir~ologis~ , arA a l~ologis~ is a frestwater
cceanograj;her.
So, you know, this bill, I say aga~ to the
::i.:aste.:-, ;..1.vt;s ~o the Cabinet, not to the House- it ::l.oes not. give it.
to the Hou;;e,·.,;e have ::.ae; ;:ower- ';:ut. gives ':O the Cabinet the fO•.,re.::: tc
tc · .. ·ipe out. in everything bu~ r'.a:::e,
the city of 5t. JoP~'s and ~~e city of Corner 3rcok.
shakes his head. I tell him that shaking his head is not good e..'touqh.
He r~s got to FUt forth so~e cogent and l~cid reasons. I tell hL~
th.a t fewer is thee. The Cabinet may declare a =~;ion, ar~ a reg.1.on
could be small as the ~unicipalit.y of Hogan's ?ond, it has got about
110 Cod-fearing, loyal, taxpaying citizens in it; they pay their taxes
as assessed
aR. CARTE?.: The House l':.as ':he power
!~. 8-CEER::::s: r a.':'l sorry?
."!R. J. C:A..:t.TE?.: This House rAs the ~Qwer to do ~~is.
!-!R. ?.OSERTS: '!" agree completel:l ;.;;,.:.h :::y friend for
3~ • .John's ~or-:.h D·t::. Ca:te.r), this House has tl'-.a-:. ;ower. :::•:ery
3708
November :9, 1979 Tape l ·-..... ,I ?K - 4
!-'.r. Ro.ber!.s: municipali~y L~ this Pr~vi~ca is, ~o use
a ter:: t:hac many people take :;f!ense wi':.h but is correc-: a;-.d
not t:ea."lt: to be of!'ensive, every ttu.."li:~e;alit:,.• !.s ':.he creao:.u.re it:
law of this House; And this Hous~ has the powe: to give to the
t:inister the power he is asking. I mean 1 I could not contend tha~
the bill is ultra vires o:;o this House, r would no~ do cha-:., but:
r say tr.e bill ~s wrong in principle. ~"l.d this =lause is ~Tong.
We are r.ot ta.lki..'19' about the principle of the bill atty more, we are
ta.lki:1g a.Ccu:c clause i 2) •
aut I say to the minister or to -:;he
sencl.e:na.n fo:: St. Jch."'l.'s Nor-:h (~!r. C:art:er) o:.r.at :..'l.is b.:.ll. g1.-.:es eo t:he
Cabinet <:.he power to declare the community of ~egan's Pond, l!O ?eople,
a re;ion, nothL"'l.g L"'l. here saying it is not.
~he cit:y of St.. John's a region. It could declare the provi.sior. ,~f
3709
Novereber Z9, 1979 Tape 1476 sn -
XR. F.03E?.':'S: ga:bage collec::..!.cn servi:::es ·.tit..'~in
~~e :::i:y of St. John 1 s a regional service. ~~e ~nist.e: shakes iis
head, l:lue I say to ~.i:t, point. :::e out -:l'.e section that li.."'ti.~ it.,
point :r.~e O'.lt t.."le wo:ds t:.hat. li::U.t. it., point o.e out. :.'1e pro• .. ision o:
this act 'Jhe:'e ::: am wrong. I :nea."l, ! will gladly a!!:r.it. ! ~wrong
i! ! <en ·,..trcng, .J.."ld t.'1a: h.as Ceen k."'lOWl< m happen, t.oo.
"f will now rield eo the mir.ist.er
ant! hear what. he has t.O say Cecause .,..e ca.."l corr.e ba::.:.; at i:. anC. ..,.e
will, de?ene.ir.: on what he says.
The point is I woulC like t.o cor=e=~
'":'lat. t..":.e hon. gen:let:".an sa.ici on t..~~ collec-:.!.on o:! garbage. Section ~SS
clearly st.at.e!i, 1 ~he operation of regional soliC. ;,;aste ::iis;.osal 3it.es~ 1
not collection !acili ties. !: Casl.gna::.es ..,a:er 3U?pl:s· sys::er.s, not
Cistri:u:...:.on systems; i: designates sewe:age disposal sys~e~5, r~:
collection sys~rns. rn o~~er ~orCs, you are :alking acout. !acil~~ies
~•a~ may be opera:ed on a regional basis bu~ ~ot ~s~r~ution sys:e~~
wi~~in a co~ur.~~y.
!1?.. ?.CBE:?.'!'S:
and rea:!, 'incl:.:ding a.."l"f facilities designa-:e':! in ':.i1e or::e: as reg.:..o~a1
!acilJ. ties' ?
:-tr .. n:::::: Yes.
!1? •• ~6.S?.TS: And ~~en :ead Sec~ion E.
t..'le minister, :"'.r. C.'1air::ta.'1, ""Ould care :.o read s6-sec~icn {t) o! t:1a':.
Section 305 ~o '"hi:.:,. ~e rgfe:s, i~ :a..l.k.s of ::egional f:Oll.ce serv:.ces,
a.:::Qula.nce se:-.. ices, a."limal and dog con:ro1. a."l.c! "ot..'ler siP..J.lar s.arvic'!s
wit.1-;.in t.l1e region as re.ay be prescribed." 3y whom? By our friend, ::.e
Cabinet again. And the Cabinet. could easily, you know, to use my
exaJ:lPla, could easily under t..'1at. power declare t.."le =ollection of gar.::age
eo be a regional responsibility.
ccnfusa :;,...o t..'1ir.gs. ! Co ."l.o~ t,;"'link t..'1e :::U.niste:: is trying ~o !1co&..:i:-.l:.
us a."'ld ::: do not t.'1.ink he has bee:'l. hcoci...,l.:tked. T.1.e mi~ist.er oug:~e. not.
37i0
~ovemCer 29, l9i9 Tape 147B SO - 2
legislation be draf<:e:i having in ::tinC. a ce::-t.a.in sc."l.er.:e 1 a ce!'"':.ain ?lar..
Mo-:.1.er is ,,...hat. cor:-.es ~ac.'<: and ·.mat. t:.1.e ministe: bring-s ~efore t."le
iiou.se 1 a.."''.C. r would say t..'te po·o~ers :o ~e ccnfer::eC. :Jy vi=~~e of ::.his
word '::egicn', ~1a.t :.."tcse powe::-s are far beyond. what t."te ::.:.niste:: int:.en;:ied
<c.o have, are far beyond ...-nat he wants, are fa: beyond what. :~e int:.ends
to use a.\td., i! :..'lat. is so, he should not. haY.: :.."l.em. ne s:"lould r:.ot
have ti'.em, but:. I will t:.ell hi:n :.,.:..ey a::e there. I. '••ill tell you :.."te
powers a:e t:."tere, t:.~ey are in!init:.ely beyond wnat:. :..~is govern:~nt ~ave
in :r.ir.d. au::. how do ·o~e know 't.."lat t.:.-1e m14"l!..ste:: will continue ::..o ~e t:-:e
::Unist.er? He is a :ea.sor.a.Ple ~.a."t, bu<: ;;::.?pooling .,...e :-.ad so~eon.a li.:<.e
tne ;ent.!.er.a."l !::om Bonavist:.a South. (~1r. !-lOrga.nl a.s o:.."te ::-.!.nist.a::? ·:ou
know, I ua.""". ciisas::.e::- could st:.rike ove.r:-.igh::..
~iO:'":."l. (:-~:. Stirli:.g) '?
:,tR. ~asp::s:
Heal:..•.
!1..-=t. :<DSE P:!'S :
h'ha::. a.cou<: 0::'1e ::".e:r.Per fo: 3onavis-:a
If we had ~~e gen::.le~an !ro~ So~avis::.s
{lnauciialel a loe.
Yes, we would be in well hands. :::
t."te !'orr..er !1.!.:-..is-:.er o: Educaeion could Pe r..acall13.d ::.o his por-:folio ~=
::.o a ?Qrt!olio, JOU know.
The !-IJ.nis::.er of :-~u."".iCi?al A!!ai::s
(X:. ;;, Windsor), in this ~ill, :1r. C.•air.M.o"""., is a.ski:tg for very ;:~a::.
powers. ~ow, i! he needs ~"te~, ~~at is one t:."ting. aut he said he Coes
not need :..~em. Then why is he asking for :.."tem? !f he has no::. a reason,
!hen let US S'tO? giving :..~er.l ::.0 Z,..1.m. I do I".Ot :l""..ink t.he ro..inis:er ~.;J::
up at nigh<:. a.1d cooked up ::.: .... is sche:ne :::.0 do it.. I do :1.ot. t...,i:'..k. he had
has r:ot. ::-ea:i o:..':.e :::.ill. He has ::ead it, oh Sl.lre, he has :ead tl1e ·..-or:iz,
I C.O not ::!o'.:.bt. t."".a-:, bu-: he has ow::. unciers::.coC. :.nem, he :.as r.ot. u.•cie::s::.ood
::.."lem i:1. a legal sense. r say :..':.a: :."o.is i:lill qoes fa:: ::.eyor.d ..,na::. ':.."1..:!
3711
:;ovec:Je: 29, 19 79 1'ape 1473 so - 3
H?.. ?;OBSP:.'!'S:
I sa:t ·o~e snou1C: no:. give i.:. t..o ~i=:.
~'i'ell now, ~tr. C•ai:::r.ar., if 1 -;:,ay,
we compress logic :.o the ex"t;ent: titat:. i:. be::omes absu:d, r would. suggest:.,
and I t."l.i!".k it is a little ::Oi:. absurd .... :-.en you look a:. :..~is ~ill to say
:..hat this bill could eli:::inate a ci:.y council. : ::-.ean 1 it Coes r.ot:..
(Ina.ud.i.':::llel Coes :\Ot:. sa:: St:. • .John's
{inaudible)-
But . ..,.hat .,..e are t:.alidng a.l:o·.l:. here
is t.loe es:.al.:lish::-.ent:. o! :e;.l.o:..:!l cc~.ci.!..s.. 'feu l-::-.ow, a r.agicnal
is ~ot:. gea::eci for <:.hat ?u.r?CSe, r:.o<:. l.:lt.~nCeC. for :..hat pu::;:cse. r.~~.c.
I ;.,'ould suggest to t:.:~e Co::-.ci.<:.:.ea., :1r. Ch.air:"~ •• that. it. C.Oes not.
division, :Jivision {SJ, '..'it:'t respec'! :.o io;. i::n:.:. : do r.ot re;,.l::/ follo•..'
min.l.-C.~a<:.a ;ot uncle:: ·..;ay •,..hen t.."i.e ~on. ::'!e::-.Ler !or Sonaviz-;a ::or:..':
(;·tr. 5 :.i.rl.:.r.;l obse::""";eC. c.-.a: t.."le ::i :.'j •.:a::; not:. ::i~!ineC.. ':':!e hen. ::-.i::..:..s t:il::
s:.. :onn's ar:.d the Cio;.:r of corner 3:ooi-; M.c:.s respec:.ise.!.7, ~'..!.t:. I do noc
zee now ho'J all of t..'"is - ! jus:. reall1 ~a.·.re to poir.-:. ou:. to :...'"~
Cor::e.i:.tee ! do n.o:. see :...'le raasor. oehinC. !.::, ... mea:., it sot..:.'1Cs logi::a:..
and all o:: :..'lat. bue you have got :.o govern a:tci t.empe:: your obse::vaeior.s,
what. ha•t.a you, ...,.it.1 :.he tes:. of reasonableness a.!"'.d .I. ·..Joul.:i. sa.y :..'-:.a:. :."'lis
is an er..inently
3712
:-lovemi::le.:: 29, 1979
·,.;e are ::onside::i~g, :rou k .. "low, ·,..;auld :'l.Ot: :Oring into effect ':=-.e
abolition of the City of £t. John's, City of Corner 3rook, cr for
t.hat mat.ter any ot:her municipality.I5 ·•ouf,d be quite absurd,!
would agree w1~~ ~~e ~ember for the Strait of Selle !sle
(Mr. Robe~sJ,to say that the :n.inist:er could. r suppose, '.lnde::
t.his bill, : suppose he :::oul.:i :c.ake the local i:nprovetr'.en: distri=t
of Hogan's Pend, or what ha•1e you, a :-eqional cou...,cil in it.self.
aut., you know,tha't. would be abs:Jrd and I suppose there are many
powers t:hat are gra.."lt:ed co :he Executive Col!."1ci.!., · ... t·.ich 1if exer:::ised
in a way :.n.at. ·..ras unreasonable, would lead ':o an equally a!:sur:i
:esul-:. Bue this :.ill would :'l.Ot.. The ult:.i:::'!ate tes~ oC t.en-.pe:-.!.::g
any gove::unent.,o::: cow:se, in ca:r-;ing out absurdi<;:ies and ot.he:
<:hings, is ':.he ·..;ill o: <:he people. .;nd : :eally do no': .::::~llo¥1
the :lrgulTlant..
3ome ?rog:ess an:! ; :eg:et. ~~~': ~y learned friend does no: !ollow
~-
~he arqc:nent. but. you know, JOU can .:.ead a ::.orse :o watt::' ::u:. you canno':
make him ci:"i:Uc., as :...'le ol:! saying goes. r . ..,.il.!. have eo go ovo;!r it: agai:-.•
!or"!t.::natel'/ ,in C:::.m."l':it:.':.ee ·.o~e ~ave u:-limi:.ed.
as Your Honour k:lo•..;s, U."!.li:ni.':.ed :~pportunities as long as there a:e -:.·,.;o
me.m.Cers '""ho alcerna:e and as long as :tey are rele•.ra:::t.. Ar:d -:.::.e
thing abou':. a definition claus~ ~3 it is relevant t:o al:.ost any~'lin;
you care to say.
Now, we made some progress at leas<:.
My learned !riend opposite agrees that:. t.he ir.t:.erpret.a1:ion t...'la.t '<~e have
put forward is possi!:l~. He had to agree wi~h that.. I~ is just as "Nell.
I mean, he coul-:i i1o~t ~rgue, even the learned c:e:n:.lel':'..an :!re:r. St .. Joh. ... 'c
Eas1: (:1r. :-tarshall) could not: argue aga.ins': ~a:, a.~d !'l.e ::.as ?layed
some sticky wickets in his :.it:\e,
H.~.. ?.C9ZRTS:
argues against tr.e co~et.i::on.
No, he never
::e does not ll.s:en to anybociy ei-:.he::. That. is ;:a::':. of his ;:roble;.:.
:;o~;~ever, -:..'lat. is anot..~er stor-J. The:e will be another place, a.not..";.er
3713
November 29, l9i9
~t.~. ?.CSEEtTS: forum for chac. He does noc even
answer l~~:~rs which h~le solicieors wrice to him solici~ing an
answer.
Now, Sir, eha: is another seory.
'!'he problem her~ is not:. just wie.h the absence of a de:ini::icn of
e..'1.e •..;ord "city" i e."lat is one problem. :'he problem .:.s really,
in addit.ion to that ,with t.1.e de:inition of t..he word ''region".
The ~nister says that my argument poss~~ly is t3king e.."le r.~c~er
no problem in saying that my argument may '-"ery well go :Oeyond t.he
reasona.ble. 3ue, Si:-, ~o concede tha~ only suppo::;:;.s :ny a:-gcr.en'::
because,o! course,~y ar~~n:: goes no :urther than t.~e s::a::ute does.
~~d when I say my argument: ;oes somewhat: beyond the logical and
the r9asona:Ole, or to ~he li~~::s of t.~e law, it is logical Ou: i:
goes :.-:;l ':.1-e lim.i:s ::.f logicalit.:,.', and it cer~ainli· goes ~eyon:i
reasonabl~ness, as C.oes ::.e governt:'lent.' s bill on ma.t.r.l.!:loni.'!l prc:;er:y
·,;her!! t."tey ::al:<. o:: - th-=y would :J.Ot. ::u: in the word "reasonable",
talked ot"•.!."l.consciona.ble''i:;.s:eaC. So i£ 1 gc· !ieyor.d re:asona.=.leness,
::: <Un not. beyond •Jnccnsc.lona.1::.:.li::!es. H·! argument goes no :ur-:her
tha.."l -;he st:a::ut.e does. So : would .say to che min.'..seer and :.o his learned
colleague ~"l.d to all, ~1.e wnole group in the Cab.lnet. -it. is ~'1.eir
~ill; the ::.inis'ter happens co ha'le ::he unenviabl-e t.ask of shepnerd.;.::.;
it t.';.rough, just as in :!.ue co!.!rse he 'Hill have :..,e Utlen•.:ia~le task
of defending it., and living ~ieh i-;. But. of =curse I can console
him wi~"l t~e knowledge that he has probably lasted longer new t.,an
any ML"lister of ~~"licipal Affairs. You know,being ML"l.iseer of ,, H.~'licipa.l Affairs in t.'lis t'rovince, Mr. ·r;."ta..iman, in
':he years since Confederation has reall:/ b..,.~:. a i;'lace for :1 self-
?leasane~.til:::.e W.r. D!.nn) •..;ould concur ·dt.h t.ha::, that i.e is a very
onerous position ~ndeed.
371-1
No~e~er 29, 1979 Tape Ho. 1479 ~"M - 3
MR. ROBERTS:
and go. ! d.o not. know- !. suppose Hr . .Seat.on Abho:.: • .-a~ t..'le firs:.
liinister of ~1unicipal A£ fairs t.'1at. I can recall. !n. rtty time, you ~'"low,
we have had - I ~ not sure ! could name ~~ew ~11. r am not
su=e I could name all ~~e TO~/ mL'1isters.
A..'t HON • .:-tEXBER: John ~Iolan.
John Nola."l. •..;as .1 Minister of !iunicipal
~ffairs. Eric Oawe was a Minister of Munici:;al Affairs;.
AU HON. ME:·lBER: :'he ?remier.
!1R. ROEERTS: John Crosbie was a Minister of Municipal
Affau-s.
AN RON. XE."tBE.'It: Harold Collins.
~. ROBERTS: Harold :ollins was a Xin~st.er of
Municipal A!fairs. Val Earle ·.,as t.he Minist.~r o! :-tu.r.icipal .!!,.ffai:::s.
AN HCN. ~B£R: Wnere have~~~~ .1 11 gone?
:-ffi. ?.OBE.:ttS:
Mu."licipal Affairs. T::.e ~entlema:-. from l?leasa.'1.<:.Ville (:·t:. :linn)
was a Minis:.er of !1unicipal Affairs. ! dn net know- I have
probably lef<:. out. ~he door to ~'1e office of ~'1e Minis~er of
door. So ! say :ha~ ~y ~e~~s of a -
A.N :!:ON. !1D!BZR: (Inaudible).
MR. ROBERTS: Well,the minis~er may feel he got.
st.uck half •11ay t.~ough. The mi.:liSte:- is out scbstanu.1l girt.h,
g-i-r-t-h, as a.:e 1r.a..ny of u.s. au~ the point I am rna.kl.ng i,;
. ' he can .~n -:he dark of t.he night., ·.o~hen the three hundred .J..:ld nint.."l !
council has descended on him for some:hing that is r.ot. ·•ithin his
will pass !rom him in dee course.
But the minister d.ist=acts :~.
The ministe: :.akes me away, !1!:'. Chairman, an'i. ! have r.o desl.re :o ce :.a.;;. en
away :rem t.".a:. . ., The ?oir.:. is ~~is, that ~y argument go~s :o the li=.its
3715
Novee~er 29, 1979 Tape No. l4i9 NH - 4
MR. ?.:8ERTS: of logicality, :rt gees be:/~r.d
reasonableness. au:, Sir, i: is consistent w~~~ :.~e bill. And
so I would say to the minister that I think what he ought :o do
is to :ome up wit.h a definition :~f the word "region" '<~~hich .,.ill
limit the po...,.er of the Cabinet. Oh,horrible ':.bought! Imagi:J.e
limiting ~~e power of ~~e Cabinet! You ~~o~ I have been in a
Cabine:. and
3716
!love:be.r 29, l9i9 Tape No. 1480
I can uncie.rst~d t~~ so.r~ of ~ental
rot t."lac sees in to any ~an or lady ·.,.ho takes the Queen's oat..'1, a."'ld I
~sure my hon. !rienci from St. uor~·s ~or~~ (~r.:.carter) -he is ~oc
learned, at least within t=:.e te:=. i.'l whiC. we use t."ta t in t.~..e House;
he may be in a.."'lot.'1.er sense- would be the very !i::"st. to agree t..,at a
mental ret sets into a man or a woman when His Honour t..":e Lieutenant-
Governor i"..rears :!lat. r~an or .... c~a."l into office as a. cir.ister a...-.d you
undertake to reveal intestine insurrections as Cid,!or ex~ple, the
President c! t.~e Council. He revealed an intes~ne insurr~cticn and
~e was excreted fro::: t.,e Cabinet as a result t..'"l.ereof to carry <:."'.rough
t.i.e analogy-or excreted hil:(self, I t. .... i."'lk, to do t:.e gentleman !ull
c:edi:..
(Inaudible),
HR. ?.OBE?.':'S! Hy frier.C. f:oc St. }oh.n •s ~tort..":.
{M.:' • .J .car-=erl knows all t.~e short ter:ns, Sir. ! •;~ill leave it. to
him. If you are in ~~e savoury busi~ess ! guess, ycu come -:o r_-,c·•
~~ese t..i.ings1
do you? 5ome of ~s, Sir, are in a less savoury -:ype of
work.
Hr. Chai:::a.n, the preble: is -;.."l.a~
the Ca..!:::inet are askir:.g for pcwers beyond :..":.a-:. ...,·hie.": they need anC. e.."te
!rental rot · .. ·h.i:::h sets in a."'ly person .,.,he beccr.cs a m.i:1ist.er of tl'".e
Crcvn is t.!".ey begin t.":.ir.king t:...'1.e House is irrele~,o·ant, :..i.e House is JUS~
used onc:e in a while to ratify legislation or gl..ve the Cabinet
fu~i.er power.~-,d it. is :..~is bundle of powers which taken tcge~er
represents the sove:eignty of this Province as ccnstituted !:::j' -:he
5:itish North .\I::erica Act, and really 1it is only a temporary a.berrat:.icr,
that the sovereignty rests with t.lo::e House of 1\sse::bly, it ought., really
to rest wit.~ t..l-te Cabinet. And you get to the point hen. gentleman
opposite have got to en occasion - and I will not say ~~eir .;:redecessc~s
did not - .,.here you simpl:: say, "Tte House of '-Sse::-.bly is :eally JUSt. a
nuisance. Co ;.oe i-.ave t.o :;:ut UF '<:i':~ i-:?" AnC. t.his bill ref!.ec-:s t.:'1at:
attitude. ! do not t..'"l.i~~ ~~e minister i~tended ~t to, • do r.ot ~~i~k
anybod~· intended i': -:o!but all of a sudC.en it does ar.C ! find '.:...1.:.\lt.
3717
!;ove.m.Ce.r 2 9 , 19 79 :'ape N'o. 1430
seetion very, verJ cffe~sive for that
reason. I t."U.n:< ~o~·hat the =.;;.ni.:u:er ought:. t.c do Si:, is ·<~e will l.et
Clause :1 stand for a Pit. TI1e draft.speo::?le axe ...,.ith.in earst.ct.1 !.
suspect, a..'1.t! let t.'1em c.oti'.e up wit:..~ sotte vcrds to li.;:it 'ra<;ion 1• I.!
t.~e ::dnis:er says he does not. want powe.:-s, why dce!3 he <:.ake :he.tt't:' ~tow
he ca.~ be stubborn. ae can say, ··~1:, •·ell, ·what we write is. i::. lett.ers
of bron:e a.•1.d it. ca.nrot be e..l').anged, " and !le will have hiS vay in t..he
short-te.r.r;, but he will be here for ler.;e.r t.'"la.n h.e o•..t;ht:. to be here
gettirtg !:is bill t.~rouqh ~~e eott=.it:ee. ! ehink ~~at the word 'region•
ought to be eliminat.ed and I t:.1ifu~ t:.he 'wiOrd 'city' ou;h.t:. to be Cefir.eC,
and I think t.-.,.at: it ouo;ht tc l:;.e rr.aC.e .::::ystal clear e.'(a.ct.ly 'W'hat t..":e
goverr~ent can~ under ~,e guise ef c:'ea:~ng a :egienal au~~oriey.
I have vo~e.d against: the ;n:inc:ipal of e.~is bill. I c!c not t.~ink i~
ought to 't:e in t..~.is bill. I tb.ir..k i-:. ought. to be a separat:.e bil:.. :
have no protlam wi~~ ~~e ccnceFt of regional ;overncent1 bU~! r~ve a
great deal o: p::oblen: ..,itit l:..'1.e •.tay in whic.'1 !.t. is being Cc::ne ~y ~ • .:.s
gcvernoen~. : ~~ink we are see~r.g i~ snue~,if ~~ere is such a wcr~.
we art seei::.g it b::c::uqht in :y the back d-oor. "the government a=e <:.r-]:..:-.g
to de l::'J i."'l.c!irec::ticn t..~.at -..hic::ll t..i.ey could not: do !::y di.:ec:.ion. So \Jha::.
ought :o !:le l!ol:".e is :he Ce!i.nitio;r. of t.'1e word. •region,' There cugb.t to !:ie
sc:ne limitaticn put en it.. 'feu could limit it , I suggest., :;r. Ef·:U! .. ~er
in upg:::ac!ir.g I probably do'lo;r.qrac!e and. : have no i."ltent.:.en, Sir, c!
Ccinq ei~~er or of doing ~"lything othe~ ~"1 faying Cua ~~d p~~pe::
homage a.nC. ::e£er:ence to Your Honour in response eo '{cur r..onClur 's 1:'.1li.ngs
t:.."lereupcn. So t!te point is, Hr. Chain:.an, t."lat t.l-tere a.re t..o ways
in whic:h .it could be limited. One is to a nwnber of square ::li1AQ" or
square ~hatever t~ey are in metric - what are ~~ey in ~et=ic? ~~at ~s
~~e ~~it of square ~~asure~ene in metrie? Hectare? Some of us have enough
trouble ..,.!.~'1 ae:es. B.u't. whe!l ·;~e were at se.l:ool, there wer"' roes .and cha.ins
and wha.t else were t."".are? ?<..:.rlongs'?
A:1 RC!i. ~:mt?.: Perches and :::;d.:s.
!i..'tt. R0BE?.'!.'S: Per::hes ar.d reds. I do not: knc'-l if ':hat
c::ou!d lit:ti ':. it
by so r:z.."ly hec:ta::es,ycu k.t"'.ow 1 p:-oviCe l:b.J.t a region shall :-.ct cor.:ain less
t..4.ar. , I do not k.."tcw, so t:ta:1y !:J.ec:t:ares. •·i"hat is the ::-a tic o! a hectare t.o
3718
~ovember 29, 1979
HR. P.OBEP.TS:
}.!l HCN, HE."!SE?.:
:·!R. ROBE?.:'S:
A."l !!ON. M£1-lB ER:
~R. ROBERTS:
SCM£ HON. ME:1EE?.S :
1-'.R. RC9ERTS:
! do net t:~re:.enci tc F'-"lOW.
talki.."l.g a!::cu <::.
A.'l !iOt!. ~!E!:.SER:
Tape No. 1480 ?AJ
an acre?
!'w'o and a half ac!'e , •
A hectare is two and one h.alt acres.
two an~ one ha.l! acres is one he~are.
two .. ,d one h?.lf acres is or.e heet:.a:e.
Oh, oh!
New will t..'1e t'JO of you ctake '.:.C. JOU!' :n.i~d;
Ch, oh.
As usual ':hey :o not. know •..tt-,ae :hey are
r am re~lly net. ::o conce:neC.
Well1 ! ~cw\ well the poirit is~.
important one t.ha.t t.'-lere aught. to be a
2.5
!-!R. :::.oaE?.:s: 4,5 acre;;; in a hec-:.a.re or vice versa?
AN He::, !-'!:"'$E?.: ncres per hectare, yes.
l~R. ?.CSE:tTS: So ii ""e •,o~ere eo say, for ~xa.r.:ple,
3719
Ncver..ber 29, 1979
1-L'=1.. ::. ROBE;F.!'S:
would =e 250 acres.
XP .• OI!ni:
!-'..R, ?.OEE?.'!'S:
Tape ~o. 1481 c:-; - 1
less ~:,an 100 hee-:.ares, t~.a:
'I~at.s ::ighe.
The hen. genr.ler:'lan !or Pleasar.e.ville
(Mr. Oinn) is not only nicer, he is smarter and hanCso~er ~~~~ his !rienC
for Mount Pearl (Hr. N. Windsor\
:-!P.. RICECtr!':
XR. ~f. W!NDSCR:
is unparlia:::entar;.
!1P., RCBEP.TS:
Mount Pearl Arena.
Personal abuse, ~-tr. C.l..ai:::o.a.."'l. :;.a<;
That is not ;erscnal a!:.··.:.se, S:..:, ::-:a..:
is tr~~,. T~e tr~t~ is a defence to liable.
of course, is -:.o li::-.i t it in the sense of a given l"'.\!l'!'J::er cf. ~eo;: le.
Co not know what woulC =e reasonable- 20,000 or 30,000 ~r ao,JCO cr
100,000, I really do not knew - :.ut. I t..~ink that eit.'-:er •.:oulC =:e a ·.,·ay
<;o go a.r•.d in t.l-:.at: way we ·...-ould take away fr:::::: the - !".o: fre~ -:.::e ~.:..n.:..;;ter,
take a"'·ay !rem any un=easonable successor he :night have. :: fo:: ~:-:a::?le,
Heaven forbid, the qe:ntl'!n:a.'l for Eay of Isla.'lclS (~!r. ;·.'ccCr~wJ ::y frl.c:-:C
a.~d sparring ~a~e. should have to give up being ~est coas~ assis~~~~ tc
t.."le Pre.'l'lier at the su::~ of SlO ,OCIJ per ~.,num casr., for whi'eh !'te ear::s
his daily bread, I have no doul::t, if he shoul:i 'r.ave to g.:..•:e tl-:a": '-.!; ~-:C
•.:.sed, So ! would say t.o t.~e rt.inist.er, in all. ser:.ous:-.ess -
~~inks r am net :e~'lg serious; ! te~l him I am being Ceacily seriouz - that
be ough~ to ask ~'la~ E=artic:.:.lar secticn <:o stand. ;.;e are ;o:.:-.; o;o :;e c:-.
days a£te: t.~at.
MR. STAGG:
HR. P.CE.E?.:'S:
Cc:r.a on :
(!"..:. Stagg
aP .• S':':..GG:
says, ccme en! If he wishes to return to ot.~er pt.:rS:\!i"::.s -
( !naudib le l
MP .. E. PDEEP.'!'S: :iell, if rr.y frie::d !o:: 5te:;:!-.en\rillc
wishes to a.."'lswer his letters, ! ..... ish he would. !n so saying, ! :,cpe :·is
ans'W'e:r is the one ! wane, because I Cc not "-'a."'lt. an ar.s;.;e:: c"::..l<:.er t:' . .:!.n t."'.e
one ! want !rem !'.i::t, ! :,av'! haC. t.h~ ct.'-:er i:i::.C.
!t? .. S'!'AGG: ! have news fo: yc~.
3720
Tape ::o, 1.;.e1
Yes, I sus;ect,Sir, li:.:e t.he r.e;:rber
from Ste;henville,~~~t is outsiCe tne relevanc1 rule. I a~ tein;
V14.rj serious ,..hen I :nak.e t.."lis FOl.nt., it is an .b':;:o::tant. point, a:1:i
one •.onici.1 t ~"link ought. to be given sor::e ccr.siCer.1.tion. ':i1ere
ought to i:e some re:st:iction placed •Jpcn t:..'"le definit.icn of t.":.e
vord •region• a.s it. appears in th.is section .... nic:O is c.."J.e one unC.e::
ciiscussion. L'l a.ciciiticn, I ·.oculd. say to t:r.e rr.inister t:1.at -:.i~ere
ougnt to be a C.efinition put. in oftne •..;o::d•c.i:.y• to :r:a.k.e io; quite
t.o say to all t.":.at?
:·L'!:t, :·;. \oi:iCSO?.:
t."l.e :'lin-s:.er,:::::y ':..'le ·.vay,• t."l.e :;.on. gentle::".ar: keers rafer:in; cc .. .,,
pOitrfer t..'lat. tae :.inister ·•ill :1ave., '!:.....,e ,r.;..e:: is t::.e Cabinet o: tbe
Frovl.nce, t.'le go1.ter...:.ent of t..'>e :--::cv:..nce , S'.;DJect. -:.o a :easibilit.~·
StUdj·-
:-c_q. :.;. WI;<CSCF.: -as we di;;;cusseC., ! t.hink., t..,.,.o Cays age.
j.;e ~lked. a.Cout t.'le feasil:.;.:..i::i· st.uC.y anC. ! ir.dica.:.eci. t.ha1:. as p.r-:. of
that feasibilit.1 St~.:dy t.h.era is cer<:.ainly no reason t.":.at:. t."',ere cc·~lC.
not :::e a pl!!bisc:ite. 'Ihe h.on. gent:et:'la.n at. t.."'..tt. :ir:.e-
~o .require::-.ents tJ.1.at. t..'lere nus:. ze
There l.S a requl.ret'.en: cnat:. t.."ler~ •,..oulC. be a pci::ll-!.c
nea.ring.
M.P.. ROBE~S ~ Does t.'le Cabinet nave t;.;.1e power t:.O ;a
agaJ.nst:. t.ne feasibility stuC.::t if t.'lei' so wish?
Yes, they are not tour:.d :Oy t::.e feasiJ:.ilie.y
st.udy.
:·1:?.. ROs::trs:
::olleago..:.es :..n t:.eir .,..isdcr.. or l.n tt.air stutt.orness co~lC. S3'/ t::e
oppcs:.. te.
3721.
Nover:ber 4:9, 1973 Tape :;o. 1481
!<'.? •• N. W!!lCSOR: :ie · .. -oulcl have to haVI! gooC. cause,
obviously. ~:and.at=:~rJ pt.:Zlic hear.:..::.;::> so thac. t:.e:::e ...,oulC ::.e every
and t:he minis-ter has t.he :::i;ht. t.o have a. pleb-iscite
The hen. ger.el~~ar. asked ~e a q~es~icn
a couple o! days ago ·..rh.ic.'t I Ul"'cler:.ood t,::) ;eFo t."le response tc., -
was locking for it at that t.iee in t.'te De?ar~ent. cf M~~icipal
Affairs .md housins- j\c-:.. ! :!..i.:! not !'ind it. because it was _in ~":e ~ack in
e.~.e uend.t:'..e:lt:.S, t..u1: :.~ere is an atr.enc!aC. sect..:.cr. of t..'1e cepa:-:~er.t:
of :!.unicipal ;.!fairs and Housing Act. called ?lebiscit.es, :le.uing
outlining tte authon t1 a.r.d the PC\o'er.
~e gcve~.ment have t.'te au~'tcrit.t to
order ple..O.:..s:itl!s free t.ir.e to t.i!:'.e.
The non. gent.let:".an ::;,uestioneci tnat.
:.!R. S. P.CS.E?.TS: :;o, ! ::;.uestioned :.nis .ac-:. a.nC -:.l"'e ~en.
~~nister gave ~e -
':'he :;:ewer i> unCer t.~.e :.tunicipal Affairs a::C Hcusir.;-
Ac-:., as many ct:..."'l.er _;e-wers a~. :tar.:r of c:r.e ;:o ... -e::-s ve.st:eci l.n t..!~<:
Cabinet: and ~~e ~nister are given ~o t.~ec under t.."'l.e ~~?ar~~en-:. o:
:11.:.o•licipal Affairs and Housing Act.
is way we nave a z.tu."lic::.pal n.ffa!.rs :epart.--::e:-.t. Ace.
:-l.F •• >l. H!HCSCR:
-:.'lac ~any o: <:.he powers are in t.."lat. ?ar<:.icular act rat..~er ehan ~e.1.nq given
r.ere.
I agree, C1.1':. unfort.u.'lately ..,e a:e no':.
a=ending that act.
~·:? •• ;1. hZ:~JiJSO?.:
be C.one 1 0ut unC::er 't...l.e ex..:..s::i.ng leg.Lslat.ior. -:.ne Ca.oinet has ':...!e a• . .:::.::o:::J.':.:f -:.c
c..is!:'..iss c::n:.nc!.l.s, appoint. cotr.=.issicns, ·.;ha-:.eve::- 1 for Cue cao.:.se.
3722
:;oo.;e::Z.ar ;!9, 1979 '!a:e ~,;o. l4Sl
r.;?.. :; • ROBERTS: nu~ no a~~~ority to c:eate a
regional govern~en~, what. we ara are worried. about no-"'.
HR. ~L fi'I:-ODSGR: All we are doing is ;ivi:..; e.:..er:t
a sir.i.lar power here. :t does :.ot. give t.nel:i any aut.1.ori~y to arrobt
reqional o;ot:noi:.S responsible for local problars, local issues, local
aer~ces plus regional services.
!-'.F •• E. ROE::.R':S: Gives ~~ere e\~rJ au~~ority to appoint
for regional ser.rices wilic.b, a:e •.o~aat. t!-.e Cabinet clee::-.s t."'.e::n to be.
Yes, e:.:ac~ly. That is t:ne -.. ·hole pol.nt
of i~. E.xactly.I suspeC't • .. :e are going to ;e a lot. longer on clauses
!-!R. STIRLI!,;G: Hr. C!'lai:::nan, ! tho~.:ght :0.1at. ,..as a !aJ..:!.y
inr.ocent ;;;:uestion that s~a~ec! t.his cie.i;;.-at:e ..
MR. ?.!DE:Cl.-"!': 'r.'le c=u-nister's answer touc."'.ed it of!.
~o I u."'.cierst:anci frotr. ~•e minis-:.er, no1.·,
th.at :-.e agrees e.ha: 3inee ::n.:.ni!:i?a.li:.y .and. town and local :oc.:1dl -
Coes he agree now t!J.ae th.e ciey .,..ill Ze defined :.n ~'lis lis: cf
def~ticns? I ehcught it was a fairly
3723
'I'ape 1482 EC - 1
now agree :."'.at. ~·::i:y•is ;oin:; to Oe C.e:'i::eC.?
I a.-et not. sure !..:' it. is necessary.
: '-~ill uncier-:a.~e to :;et. an opinion as to ...,het..":.er or r.ot. i:. is necessa::-J
to ha.o.:e a cit.'l defined, !:lut cert.aL"".ly there is no Ci.fficulty in de!inir.g
a. City.
Well, again, you see, :."'le re!erence co
:.~is whole a:::.- ~ .... is ~nole act is going ~ say, Wi~":. ~;.is au:.~~rity,
i:nprove=:ent dist.::ict, i':. used <::o be - ':.. .... e ':owns a.re all going o;o ;e:.
t.."l.eir a.ut."lo::it:.y :roo. ::. ... is act. and t.. ... e regional council.
how a. ml.n!.St.er '"ho l.S as sensi~·te as ~;.is :r.in.:..st.er is ar.C. . .,.ho visit:ed
-tMny councils as he CJ.d - a.."".d ,as !. said, in ':I.Y opinion is a ;ood
net. have ::oe cour:.esy :o ser.:! out a ccpy of ::..'-.is -:ery :!et.aileC, vcr'/
eopy o! :."lat. act out. to t..":.e people .,.-r.o a:e going t.o te governed by i:.
''iou a.::e going w have i': regarC.less,' is ':hat on.ly today '••e :.a·.re =~~!":
e•ren been sent. ':.::1 :.-.e exec-.:.o;ive o: t.":e fe::!era::i.on :::!. :~~.::>1.:-i;al..:.:.:.es, a..":C
subst:a.."".:ial and subso;a.n':!.ve c."l.anges- a."".d or.es :..'la: r agree Wlt.h, :.":~se
:.-.at we have brought. up in t.":.is Souse ar.:i yo•.J ~a·Je agre~C. t.::1 so:r-.e of
':..~ose amendments.
:-tit. tl. wr:roso?.: !. would point. out. to t.-,e ;"\on. gent:ler.ta.n,
I was unCer no requirement to give him a copy of :.-,e a.r.enci::':er.:. at. all
~til I introduced it. ! did i-; out. o: courtesy.
~-1R. S':'t ?.!.I:-IG:
t."te mer.bers of e.b.e r:~use. 'rhe ques::io:. of co~.;Zt.esy : a::~ <:a.lking a;;:ou-:.
is e."le cou~esy ::o t..":.e people who are going :.o Ce afE2c:eC b·f t.his.
Once .,..e debate :.Us for :he next. six or seven :n.cn<::...._s or · .. ·i'.ai:.ever :.i:::.2
3724
Tape l4B2. EC - 2
by :.l'lis, because :nest of :..'le au:..":.orit.y goes to ~!'le C.a.i:::ir.e:, bt:.:: :.-:e
?eople ·•ho are going :.o !:e a!!e:cted are c.;e vot.ers .:ight. ::.:ot.:.g:-.ou:.
:..:...is whol~ Province, t."i.e people . ..,.ho live in r::.u."l:..Ci?ali-:..ies, and. t-'tere
will ::e no area - and :..'tis !.s one of t.'te good t.:."tings a!;out. t...'-ta -!C'; -
of !ocal cou."lcil. au: t.h.ese ver-f people, ~M.ese :Z,JCO people,•.rho a:e
t.rying to aC...'"Iinis:.er :..;.e a.!!'ai:s o: :.r:.is ?rovince :..'trot:.g:1 :..'"'.ei::
mu."licipa.lities, have not. ::,een g::.ven t..'1.e cour:esy o! a copy o! :..-.a ac-;
t.'tat. they are going :o ~e governed by, anti they s:.i.:..:.. C.;, not. ::.av~ a
,_\L~. :.-r.msJF..: :<ou ar~ not:. relevar.:. no .....
It is relevant. in t:.::.s resoect. -
:\ave 3. copy of i:..
haVt'l: taken :..'le oinis:.er at his word. ;;o,.-, in t:.."le C.efi:-• .i:.::.o::. t..<er..: .:..::; r".::
refe::ence :.o cio:y, and yet. -..hen you get. t:::l t:..":e J?Co...'<2!'S - a:.C. :::aye>! .:..:. .:d.s
just ?icked ouo: of anot.he::- act:, maybe it Coes: no-:. belong in here at. a::..
I ..,.ill be delight!!!C. i! ~·v.! rni.nist.er says, 'Oh, I a.t:'l so.r::'"'f, ':..'1a:. a.lzc ".Ja;;
a mist:~e; ~~'"lat. ::eally does no~ belong in che.re.' - ~~e minist.e.r indi~at:et
it:. ·.;as a :U.st.~e., ':.'"la-:. he di::5. r",oo: re<illy r..e.a."l o:o ?U:. i:1. ':."l.e a-::t. ':.>J.':.
au:...~ori':"f to appci:u:, a.nC ie has, :believe, in :.::e arnend..":".e:-.:.; ~.:; soc:: as
':."lis also is a r.lis-;a%e. E..:t :..! were a t:e::-.=:er, i.!l.o:.::er as a r-=s.1-=:e:-.:. o:
3725
~iove:r.cer 29, 1979 Tape 1482 ~c - J
of 't..~e ci~y of Co:ne: arock, I would Oe ver:! ouch conc:erne::! a.bou:. ar.
act which. says -:.~at -:,.:,.e Ca.bine:. has 0:.:"l.e a.u:::::or.:.-:y - a.."l.d here is ·,.,nd:.
it says - "ac;uire a.."l.y of -:..-.e fixed asset.S of the
372G
Nove~er 29, 1979 Tape No. 148 3 GH-l
)ffi. S!'!RLING: municipalities and cit:ies. Now, ·~e
told thee all :r~ough the debate and :hey believed ~~em because e~e
minister is a geed ~iscer. He has never lied to them and they believed
him once he said, "The Ci t:y of Corner Brook is not gc.:.ng to !:e af:!ec-::ed
by this act, :he City of St:. John's is not goinq to be affec-::ad by ~is
act.." But way over here buried on paqe 101, Sect:ion 309, this cou."l.cil,
this regional council -
AN HON. !-f£:.t=E..o:t:
:-1-R. ST!R:.ING:
Are you debating the bill?
No, ~e are !ebacing ~~e definition
of 'city' and ~~e need for definition. ~nder definition, ~e need to
define 'cit:y' -
We can say anything we want: under
t.'lat section.
(!naud~ble) •
."-ffi. S':'!F.LI:-lG: Yes, well, you see, t:ha-:. .,..,oul::i be -
if you agree t:o do that, then r ::an proceed. Do you agree co do ~~a~,
cue ou<: ci<:y?
(Inaudible) suggest.
!om.. Sl'!RL!!IG: ~o, no, :nake up :r•our :nind.
SOME F.CN. ~~'-t3E?.S: Ch, oh!
MR. ST!P.L!!-iG: You see, : .,..ill t:aJ<e che t..tord of ':he
m.inist:er t.ha:. he •;till define ':::iey' in ehe definitions, a:-.d then r ••ill
leave ~e point, if t.~e ~~niseer will say ~hat.. au~ ~~e lase ci=e ~,ac
! took the word of ~'le ~nister, I took him at face value until I read
the act:. Now ! have ~~e ability to read :he act because we are presented
with a copy, Cut nobody in ~he cities and towns thro~ghout the Province
ilas had -:he oppor-:unity to ask e.hese questions, and they are going to be
the ones affected by i:, bound by ~~e regulaeions, bound by ehe act.
Just in case, for the benefit of ~~e Xi~ister of Finance (Dr. Collins),
in case he t.'"\inks that t:..~is is a figment of my it:tagination, there :.s a
telegram from the Town of St. George's, which is not a Liberal district.
It is not re~resented ~y a Siberal ee~er a: ?resent; it is a ve~y Liberal
dist:rict. "';o;e feel thac. aut:horic: t::~ set. t.:;:= regional cou~cil as well
authori:y :::.~ :a.~e a•11ay responsibilities a::d assets :'rom ':.own councils
3727
~ovem=er 29, 1979 Tape ~io. 1483 GH-2
should not. rest .,...i':..._ ':..:-:,e Cabinet.,
hut, as a safeguard, sho~ld rest:. wi::.h 't. .. e :louse of Assembly" - cover
that by defini~ions, if you like. From ?or': Saunders, ·•:::, as :nayor of
?crt Saunder::>, feel that. :he goverrur.en::. elected )::)y -:... .. e ?eople of t:his
?rovince, and ! refer specifically to the Cabinet:, should not have ~ .. e
authority as stated to jisregard any input. from the House of Asse~~ly.
And, probably :nore i:nportant: to the ?eople of this ?::o•.rince, this decision
gives implication that ~-.e Province of ~ewfoundlar.d is on ~ .. e ~ .. reshold
of dictatorship ar.d co~1nL~is~. The gcve:nment elect is only there to
represent the peo~le. ~hey should at least have enough e~er~ise ~n
planning to consult ':..1.e people about such a major decision.''
AN HON. :-!:2·13£?.:
!tR. S:':'!?.l.:::G:
H,:::>., ZT!?'~' .:::G:
SCHE HON. :1E!{B£?.5:
MR. 'd!~l:JSOR:
e.r~t you sent out yesterda7.
:1?. •. il!~OSCR:
{Inaudible) Por~ Saunders.
Port Sal.!!ld.:rs.
(Inaudible) firs~ one.
The first one ;.;as St. Geor;e' s.
-,.'ho was tha~ signed by?
St. Gaor;e' s. a! chard :-lacl:;onald, ma~·or.
Oh, Oh!
! ~i:l keep ~t ;oir.g, :: you ~lke.
Read all ~he replies :::.o the telegra:n
I "'i!l do :::h:a::. I v.·ill do :::.hat.
Include t:tem all. I am t.he one ·.o:-.o
~old you ~o reier to ~~e Federatior., :oo. 2ead all of :rieo.
:-1R. ST!?.LISG: I agree .,..ith t.hat, '"e intenC. tc.
We intend eo, but the ~nister of Finance (Dr. Collins) feels :~ae it
is only a concern of this side of the House, and r ~~reading a couple
of telegrams froo some of the coun=ils.
DR. COLLI!-lS:
!-!!L T!-:."0!-!.5:
li.st.en ar:~-wa·f.
:1H., ET IP.L!!ZG:
As amer,ded.
Wha~ is :!'!e good:' You ·.,rill c1o: e•te:-.
.! .,...as aski.::~ a question, an::i :
rea11:,: t.~c~ght ·.;e were going ':~ get. off t.his in abou-:: t.!'.J.rt:.'/ secor:ci;;;.
r :..J;ough: the mi::iste: ..... as qo~r:g to ge~ i.lp a_,d say, "'Jh, sarr-;
:t.a't must be a."'l. o:r..ission • .: -,...ill nave 'ci:y' ::ie=ined". I:' he had
sa.J.d that, ·..-e ;.;ould be on. The:e · ... ·o:.:ld ::;e r.ot:hi:lg to !:Je :ione about.
3728
November 29, 197? GH-J
a.~.. ST!?.!.I!'lG : ie. Does ~.e T~nis~ar nc~ agrea ~hat
he "'ill deiit:e ':=iey'? :f l"l.e 'Hill, ! ·.;ills::.:. ;io\o.'n and we · .. ·ill proceed.
Ciey of C;:rr.er Srock ~d. '.:1-.e Cit:? of St.. Joitn 1 s or :J..'1Y ot."le:: cit·:" :.:ta:.
may come int:o being, if th.ey a::e not. defined, e.'len '..rhic:t cit.ies are ::'ou
referring ~o '"'hen you say you can acquire any of the fixed asse<:s of :..'1.e
:nunicipalities a.'1d cities •.tit:..,.ou:. :::cmpensat:ion? 'tihich cities a:e :..~-o.ey
t.~at: you ::-:fer to in :bat a:ea'?" .Y.a'fbe t:.'le minis:.er .,.ould like to ar.swer
til at.
MR. '..l!!i::JSOR: Sor:y, ! m~ssed ~~e last: par:.-~
:: ·,..onder :.: you ·..;ould repeat. t::.ae.
s~ce you do not define 'city' and 1ou-
AN HON. !·:E..'1BE?.: There are cnli' :wo cities ;.n =..':e ?rovi::ce.
Yes, okay, and suppose :.here is gel.:'.;
3729
:tove:rhlil:: 2'?, 1979 7apt! 1464 -~ - l
!1R. -.1I:-n::soF.:
d.iffe:;ent.ly t.h.a."l a:.y ot..'ler c:.:nicipalit.y7
it7 ~ou Co not incluC.e it i!l yo\JX defi!ti::.ior., :.hat. is t,1;:e •;ery prc~:e::-.• •,
':lou define municipality. Do you want:. to ~'lew .,..hat. :rou define ::tunicipaliey
as? ::ot>.mWli-e.y, town a.."ld a region. You do not. define :.."l.e cl.t'l as
.s. muni:ipali t.Y.
MR. WI:.;:so?.:
apply here t:.iuoug:t all the oe...'1-a:: provisions o! t..'1-e ac:-.:..
au-e. :.:.;.:..s is a =.aJor prov.:..s::.on o! ~e
a.c:.. I agree if you will :.ake ou:. ret;ional gover::.=::en:., :~er. ·.:e ca::. h-'l·.t,;.
no Cebat.e on regional gove~~ent. r~e ou:. :hat sact~on of e...~e ~=:..
MR. W!:n:SOR:
referreo:i to municipalities - a cotr.m~.mity, :own or regio:-: -..a:.;. ot . .''ler
'.ti:.'l :to reference :.o-.
:·tiL STI?..:..:::G:
not. just ·:hange city so t."l.e :naJor pa::t o! it. - it. is just a quesuor.
of Cefinin; it.. I t.'lought it. was a fairly si:::ple :..';.ing, t:..'la: you ;.:ere
t:="Jinq :.o get a."t- a.c-:. -
, --·
it. ha!> 6JD sections in i':., a."".d you ju:.t le!'t 0'.!':. :-efe:e!".ce ':.o t.:td ::~:.::·,
tha't is all. If you agree t.o Ce!ine i:.. efl.gon r. •,..ti:l sl.t. do .... r ..
get back on i't.
Okay, ::.."l.ank you.
MR. n!OHS: :-tr. C."la.i~.an, .:.n connectior. '..J!.t.'l -=.'lis
par-:.icular sec~on, I would lika firs:. of al:, of course, ~ dl.sassoc1.a:.e
myself wi::.."'l t!.1e reference :.ha:. -:::; f:ie!'ld !'::or:'l 3cna·tist:a :lo::o;.;.• r.:aCe a
couple o! :irr.es, t.'la:: .I:: a :.~inks ::.is :::-..i:::ist.e:: is a c;-::cC rr.inis:.~:.
cert.a.l:-.ly do no-: t.'liM :..'i.is nu.nis:er is a ;cod ::-.i:-.is":.er. f.e ,..,.oul=. !".o::
3730
:-<ovel:lbe:: 29, l$79 :·S - 2
of tile people of t.!.U$ ?::O'I.tince
properey taxes and :egional gove:n:nen1:. :·ta1be ~'le ,..,.hole exe:::ise
is useless an:r .. ,..a:r-: it. cer':air-.ly p::-oved eo be useless in t.':e cie!:e.::.e
on 7.'le Ha~:i::tcnial ?rope::-t:ias Ace •. :.ver-i· time ..,e ::taC:e a s•..:.ggesuon
!or a reasonable a..'"!Bnti..-:ent. ~ t..'le act, t.'1.en ·.,e were told. by ";..'-te
Min.i..at.er of J1,1SU,ce, ;oho is su:..ba:..'li::.g :o· .. ·n i:. .:-tew Zeala..d sor..ewhere,..
:lew, t.'la't. is ::ct:. called fc::.
That. is where' he is, is he not.?
A.'1yway, we we:e :old by e..'le !tinist:.~r of ;us:;.ice t..'la': •1;t-., you have a
Even :hough i:. is ·.J:o:.g, i: is still. :.:--.e
P.OliC"f, a.:1d cu:::- ?Olic:"J ~~· ::.e w::ong, but. we a::e st.:.ll gol.;.g :.o p1.:::. i:
;..... :-.<J~i. :::.::::..::.: That is ri:;h:..
now. Eve:y ·ti.;ne 'IJe suggest. a ::easonai::le ~en~e:;.t., ";..'-:.en ·,..e fin:i t."::e
whole frone b~n~'1 over t..'1e::~ :o te ~ose. ?ig-~eaCeci anci ~~utCorn.
and be co~ so suc!C.enl:t C.efensi·.-e, ..... ~ene"'er .,..e sugges:: wnat. .,..e cor:-
t.o Co.-·•tu~~ A.". r.ou.r and .a hal! age- ·•as t.o agree :.o def~r.e ::-..e. ·.o~c:-.:.
cit.y in Sec':.ion 2 of t."lis ac't., a.r.d ~o~e .... oulC. have ca.r::ie:! or:. :io-..·
.,..hat. is so :!."l.:easonable about t: .. :"tae? Sut. r.o, t."'.e ::::.nis:e: :.a:. t.o ge:
?is--neacieci and had t.o ge-:. St.l!::bor:'l., a..".d. ha:i :.o ge: C.ei;:!as:.ve aocu:. ::..-..:.s.
pa..-e.icular section of t..."'.e act. So :.~hat. are we C.Oir.q? I: is j'..:St. lii<.e
t.'le co:wolu::ed logic : heard in ccr.nec~on wit.'t a.r.ot.'1er sec::icn of t.iis
act t..,e ot.."ler day when d.i.sc".!Ssing :.:..,e public t.enderi::g aspect. of t..'le ace.
The logic is, t.'le reasoning is 1 t.."'.e t:'!unicipal act. in that ?a.=tic•.tla::
section is detective. The ?~lie Tende::ing Ac:, ! ho::;e '!..'le ?::-es:.Cent. o::
t."le Council '"'ill fo::-;ive ::-..=. seel.:-.g i:. is his Paby, ~u:: :.'i.e ?t:blic :en=.a::ir:;
Act. is ciefec':.ive, it. fc:-ces :':'.!.nisters of t."-te C:-own t.o ?ar· ::-.ore =~=
cer':.ain mat.e::!.als,·•he:-e t.:'1ey are ext:.enC.ing a con::ra::t., t::.an i! :..1.ey :;.ao
3731.
:sovember 2.9, 1979 Tape 1484 :1B - J
prices. so r ask t.'le :d.nis-:.e.r '-'h'/ :10t-;.- a W::'f si.."'tple a..oenci..~n: _
hll "t.l.tey had to do was instead of saying e..:,.e sa....~ u..-..it prices is
say t..."'U!I same or lower unit prices, .lskino; ':.0 put in two worcis !:-"lat.
would ena.ble t.."".is government to :;ave :.'le t.axpayers of :..'lis P:o•r,ri,nce
t."tousa.'lCs, a..'ld t."l.ousa..-.C.S, a.-~d t.."lousand.s o! dollars. - '::.~at do !
get?- Oh no, t."le P~lie 'rendering Act is defective, t.."lere!ore t.."l.is
Mun.ici;a! Ac':. must Ce def.ac:ive as well. What convolu":eci. logic,
..,.hat pi.g-headed..'less, '•tnat. Sti.!.Ooo:ness. I ..,.ant t."lrou:;h t."lis !:'.l.St.ration
when we ...,ere talking about. t."le }!atri:nonial Proper":ies i-.c't. .! car. see
no•· t.'lat ·o~e are going to have t."le sa:r.e: f:u.s-:.ra:ion in :alking abou-:. :.1.~
t.."le MU."lic.ipali:.ies Act. hll we are doing is ::"fins to do a jcb. '.ie are
giving raason~le, what <~e consiC.e: :.o be reasonable 'ar..end.":'.en:.s t:o t."l.e
act:, ar.d what cio we get.? Pie get. t."'li! Oac/.. of :h.e :ninist.er up rig:-.: a·.ta:.
3732
S:J -
St'..:.l:::l::orn and de.!ensi ·.;e.
Sit Co•..:r- I do net:. car-= ;.;hi:h ·.,;a.'J ."'.e ~ces i:.; l:. is :roba.Ll:r gc1.:-.g
to be •,;rong . .,~ici".ever ;;a:; ~.1!:! C.oes it; o::::v.:.sc~sl:.-·, ii' yc:;. rea::! :.:-.is
fr:::m w:te:-. sne
..... Coll.ir.sl has not. read :."'--= J.ct;.
o: s1:e1=, r a. .. sayi:-.g t.ha':. 'fOO.:. J.re stubl:::orn, you are ?ig-hea ,:d. a:-.c! you
.J.re .:le:!ensive a:::! every :.ime ·..;e ask fer a reasona!:!.e !.~er. :::enc :.:-.J.s
::: .. :... :;:;::s:
3733
s:;, - :
:-:.r. Chair:r..a.n, t.'u.t: is sit::.ply \oiltat.
we are asking !o.r anC. ~ .. a ::a:m:~~ ;e:. 'ir.r :o-o~e:-a:.ion. I :.:ea.n, :.his
eva:y time he seood on his fee~ in the first session ~n ~is
hC?t.tse., was ~yir.g - !:::e so ve::::-1 co-op,;;:a::iva. tihat do ;.~e !i::.d
The ncr •• Preside:-.t c£ t.:'l.e Ccur.:::i:.
rerrw.rk:l he :;a..:.e - it. is not a. case of bel...'1g stubborn, .... e have acce?t:ed
:...;.e ~enc:,
onl:? after sone verj, verJ ca:eful :::cns.lde:ation o: all '.::wse
i;;!p:.i::atior.s. ;/ow :. .• c: hon. me...."1.be.r, I c!o not know .... het:.her he ;.;as here in
e."le Hc-.:se :...1.e ocher cia,;', but the :r.em.ber :c:: the St:ai'.:s of Belle Isle
{:tr, ;::. ?.c!:ocrts) gee ·.:.p .:.n Co;r.::1it-::.ee and. ::tacie ·..;::at was a •Jery
valid obse=va::ion wi:.h respect. to a cert::.air~ a-..at::.e.r of aat.:.:.=.onia.:..
?rope~y Act ~~t we had accepted.
MR. THOMS:
can be di!ferences c: Ofi:ion bc~~e~~ rea~or.~tle gentl~~en.
Despi~e wr~~ we say frcm ~~me to ~~. ~he:e a:e reasonabl~
qen"::.ler.en on t:.: ... e oth.e: si~e ,as: I am so.:..::e t."-:e .1.~n. Z!e::ll.-~r concedes
ehere are reasona.tle ;entle::-.an eve:: h~re. iie really de. r-.ot sc:e
like '.:!".e !'.or •• geut.le!':':an is s::a::ing ~s rosi:.icn a..i !::.eing Hol:r'
Wri:. Z.;~! ar. just. s:ayil"'.g, ;·ou k.,-,.ow, fro:::. our pocr,hl.l!':'.b.l.e _::csi:..i::m,
3734
:l'ove.:n.ber 19, 1979 3::; - 3
anci ccnsiCered .1ll uf i':.s i::.ptica:;i-;!:-.S :.ou: a!eer :.Our, "'e do :-.ot.
3eca~se ci~ies are ~e!L~ed alreaCy i~ our statut.e law. There are
two citias in ~~s Provinca, the City of St~ John's ar~ ~~ere i~
th.e Cit::J of Corner Eroo;..; bot.1. o: the.':i :.a·;e t.:;en dcfineC. ur,C.er
our axist~~g 3tatutes. !f ~~ere are any other cities ~1.at grew
up, as there probably ·,o~ill be U."'l.der :.his a.C..":li:oistrat.ion, tecause
:rcs?erity see:~rs to be abou.r.di.:":.g in the past six !':lont.!':.s-
near, hear.
3735
t!ove=:ber 29, 1979 Tape No. 1486 ?.Al
- :.:te:e w!.ll be other acts •.Jit..'l ct:."ter
cities and t.~at goes wh~re it <;.'ill apply to. t:cw when you a.ra talkir.g
al:lout making acenCments in cct:::l..it~e 1 you have to be pretty ca:eful you
know as to what yo~ are doir.g~ all of a sudden you just pick out ar.
amenciment-this is t!te way it should go in a.~C. , you know,what have you.
F:~ what! have heard f:cm t.~e other side 1 despite t..'le persuasive
been pu:sued, .:. C.o r:.ot myself feel :..'1-at t.'·:u.!!:re is at'l.y necessity t: d.e!ir:."!
the word ci:.ies. ':he city of St., John's and e.'1e ciey of Corner a:cok arc
i t.:.es -
t:ct true.
Now t..1.is is t.'le ~oint. you sae, now.
'!'he hen. :ne:r.ber sa:ts :..~at:. is r.ot :.rue T~is gets to the whole ;~st =f
t...,e whole reason wh'l t.1;.~ poir:":: is !::le.:.:J.g ha=ered. in t.'1.e !irst ~lac2,
!'hey want to ::e able to give t.'-1e itr.pression ~'lat t."'.is !::ill applies d.!.:ec<:lJ
to :ities, as C.i:ect.!.:t to cities as it does to town and municipalities-
whi~~ it does not, ~e regional government AS~ect of ~'-1is bill a~plies
or can app lJ"- Cces not apply now, can a.;::p ly-to cities. There can i::e regional
govern:ner.:s relati:<; eo the city of St., Jch."l'S and the city of Corner Brooi;;
bUt it de :-.ct, ! ::,eg your ;a:C:cr. r
·~ .-.r .• ! art not a la.,·yer ,as ! said ,ar.C : ax:.
just reading a - I had co~e to ~~e conclusion, I :ust con!ess r was pre-
pared to acce~t ~hat you just said. : was prepared to accept that ~ .. e
reason you C.o net. need to define city and ~"le defir.ition is that there
are other acts e...~at de fL"le city.
A!l P..CN, ~"'.EtR: ':hat is right:.
J.!".R. L. S':'IP.!.I~G: -and t.~e.re tore
a.e=ept that: until, and t...'1erefore I saiC., Well now 1 U."'l.C.er t.l;.e regic:.al goverr.-
ment, new obviously i! t:.~ey did not need. t...~e power t.~ey ~ou!d not put it in,
but. under tr.e :egicca.l governn:er.t set~?. ".J!':.ere it says t.."le ca!::i!'l.et, "Th<2
r..ieuter.t.a.'1t.-::Cver!'l.or in c::uncil :nay by order st:ate :.he ancillary powers t.ha-:.
zay be exercised by a regional ccu."l.c.il - it goes or. - wi:hout. linl.lt.ing e.'1e
genera.l.it:y,may state- the regional counc.ll :r.ay.::::t does not. say e.""<clud.!ng :.he C.i-:.y
of SL Joh..'"'.,' s nnd Co:':'te: Srock. Jo it one way or the ot.'"ter,· say exc.luC-
3736
Novetr.l:er 29, 1979 ?.A2
:-!F .• L. S':'!?.!.:!;G; ing the city o;: St, John's and Corne:::
3.rcok and r ;.r;,.l: be ;-,appy. .;s ! ur.ders';..lnd ·.what i: says here is acquire a::y c:
t.,_e fixed assets o: t.he o.unici?ali:y and cities. No·.o~ I was prepared to
accept ~hat you said, t!-.ere is no need to de.fina eity because ci:y is
defined and ~ha.t · •. :a :aean l:::y regional govert'UI'tent, i! ~e se:. up a .
:egional goverr.::tent in this ur!:lan a:::ea it is alreaC.y defbed else;..;he!'e
and when we say w~ can acquire any of ~~e fixed ~sse:s in t.~e :unicipalities
and cities i: :nea."ls ;:z a.not..'-ler ac~, that :ll~;..'ls ;.re ca."'! acquire t:.e asse t:.s ~=
t:.te city cf St. ;ohn's and t..~e citJ of Corner B:::ock and if you do no: n~eci
to cio t.~at, why t!o you not just. cai:e t.'1.e ieferenca ou: cZ there-:
New, i! the h9n. gent.leNn -..·ill ;er.:-.i:.,
·...-e are net t:yi::g to legistrate underneath tl".e ca...--pet. or .an:r·t!".l.ng, !':was
cade quite plaL~
Ch, oh!
... never ::-..inci now, this was made q-..:.i :.a
plain in secon: reading l::y c.:...e :ninister, it -...as c;u!.t.e plain bi' eve:yor.e
speaking over here, ever'fboCy represent;.ng the city of St. Jcl" .. .,'s is -..·ell
aware of 1.:: and ~1.ey are all over en ::tis sic!e, everyone represent.:.ng -:.~e
ot!'!er city, the city of Corner arock , is affec~=C. ~r~ they are all
over on t!-.is sicie are all a"Nare of !. t
SC!A.E !iC~; • .:-E:HBEF..S: Ch, ob..
The Feint is it was neve: intencieci :.c
~roVJ.Ce t:.,at there could not be regional ;over:-.:nent invclvi!lS' t..":e ci-::; cf
St. Jo~'s or ~,e city of corner Brook.
SOME HCN • ME..'1E E.ttS:
~R. MARSHALL: It was never intended to ~reelucie :..,e
operation of a regional governreent affecting :..~ese me~ropolitan areas.
:11'.. ST!?.Z..I!1C: So you are now sayir.g it c!oes illcl·.1C.e
t..,e.m , this bill dces i."'lclud.e t.."le ci:.y o.Z. St. John's ar.cl Co::ne::: Breck.
1 a.:n saying that :.":.i..s bill ,::ri::;a.:i..:.::·
and directly af!ec:s :..l.:.e t:.U."'licipalities t...."'!C. t..\e ':own ccur.cils ot."l.t!r t:l".a.-;
the cities of s:.. Jc:,:c's a."':C :.':e ::it:y of Co=r.er Breck.
~by clo you not: {inaudi~le)
3737
~ovember 29, 1979
I am saying t:."J.at: :.l..ese councils
right new are ;over:1ed !:y the Ci o:y of St. John's ,\ct:. a."ld t.l-:e _City o.f Corner
Brook Act. I a:n saying that there is not..l:ir.g i..'\ t..~is till , when His Honour
gives ~ssent. <;.o ~!;.is bill,t.''l.ere is absolutely not."ting in this bill from t:."te
ti::le His Honour.gives ~ssen't. which, will i:.t:::ediatel7 ef!ect t±.e city c.f St.
John's and. the city of Corr.er B::'Ook., it w!.ll i:.mediately e.::fect ot.."J.e: tOioT,
COWlcils arou."lC.,but not t."J.ese~ Eut it. is cr.fst:al clear ir. t::O.e act t..l.:at. t..'le
:hat 'Je a::e ~ot going to exclude :..."le
city of st. John'::; from the o?eration
3738
Nover.tle:: i!9, l9 i9 Tape 1487 tc - l
of regional gcvernmen: if .i':. is
Cenefi::ial, or '!.he cit:y of Cor:1e:: arcok or any ot.l'ler city, :;ow : . ."'lat: .1.s en:i.re-
ly eon.:ais:an t:. .,..it.!1 what. the minister says 1and. :.hat is why .Secticn 309
is there, and also there is no need., absolut.ely no t • .:!ed - and, you k.>J.ow,
I do r.ot want. to .!Xj?ress rcy opinion like ':he hen. mec-.ber did,
Cecause, as I say, he is a reasonable ma..-:.. 'I'hey a~ all reasonable
men on t.. ... e ct.'-ler side and t."ley can have views - but: I say that t.'lis
qov;e::nment:. is always ready a..-.d '"'ill.l.ng :o a.c::ee?t reasonable sugges e.ions
in commit~es for al:era.t.ions whie."l '"'ill st:engtilen :.he bill, a..-:.d i:
will continue to :0 so. aut. ~'lers is r.o need, L'l our opinion, :o alter
t..''le definition to include cities in <:.'lis t.hi~g. !low, ..,.e CJ..."'l talk abou:
it until 't!'.e cows come home, ~ut. that. is, you know, until we near somet."ling
else t.."'.at. ·.tould give us - :he reasons t.."'.at n~ve been given ':.y c..-.e
gen':.le:r,en en ':he ot.~er side who has spoken, wi~~ e.'le c;reatest respec<: to
all of thee who have spoken, hav~ not mov~d us to consider ~~at it is
necessa...-y :.o do it. :•ow, you gentlemen over e."l.ere :::ay :ig~e i::. is, :::u::.
t."la.t is no: -
(Inaudible).
::o, t.hat is not t.."le sit:uat.ion.
{!naudi!::lle).
}lonsense!
Would t..'te ?=esid.ent. of t."le Co~.cil
{~. Ma=shall) agree :o t..~s? ! asked the quest~on in w"l.is House and
i! you .,...ill lock at. the vordir.g o:: t."'.e ques'tion that: I asker! recently,
it should not have provoked t.'1.e President of t.'1.e Col!llcil in t.:O,.e wa'J t:..:.:.a:
it. did. But it qot into calling it political foot:!::la.J.l anci t:nat. sort: of
t.i.ing.
I am beginning to learn t..~at i!
lagislat.ion does no: have everyt.'-:.ing set. out in it, like penalties and
things lii<.e tltat., it. Coes not operate. !.ike, !or ax~"tple, :.:,e ?'..!l::lic
Tender Act. I a.o. nQ\ol told t.."lat :.'le :.l-.ing t.'lat ..:pset somebody was t..'oat
I re fer::ed to soe:ee.:...ing l.:.ke charges and t.1.a:. ::.i1arges in a la ... yer' s
opinion :naan c.ri;:-.inality and :."l.a't under an act., if you really want. :o
.3739
ttove::!::le!" 29, 1979 Ta;:e l~a7 :c - 2
have a penal':"/ like saying a ::u.nis~e:-
who breaks ~~a ?ublic Tendering Ace shculC be dis~ssed, you haci =ee~er
put t.'1at in che bi.!.l, because if you Co :.oe put e..'-lat in t.1e Oill, t.i.1..en
t.~ere is no mea."ls of getting somet . .'"ling done about it.
;;ow, r a.m. hcnf!s~:r tr"Jing eo ::.::.C. out
fro:n t:.'l.e P=esident of t.,_e Council (Xr. xarshal.!.l ... and lee 1.!.S aqree ':.":.at
there ..-ill be tir:les of political points and e...,ere ..,.ill :::e ti::;es when ...,.e
are hones1:!y trying :o do so~:~e::..:,ing on .both sidas of the House .... :.en ,..,.e
ce t:;ing to geo; e..:.,.:ough a piece of i:rof!o.:tal"'.'::. legis.!.ac.ion. :'he
?::esicient of t.."l..e Cou."\cil has sa.ici, "If :.his bill. pas~ed in it..S ?!:f.!.Sent.
s:.ate, 1.: 'Jill :u::lt affect :..'1e city of St. Jo::.n's or :..'l.e ::it"'/ of
aue so :!!a:. i:. is in t."l.e proper contex::, ...,oclC.
you not agree :.h.a: on <;he C.ay af::er :;oro:-row, :...: ::he Ca.::.inee. C:!!cicieC: :o,
wit."lo•J.-c corning !Jack co t.he House of ~se:n.bly 1 if the C~ir.et se<:. '.!P a
regional council fo: :."le urbar, region ur.de: :.'"lis au•:.:tor:.. t"'J ::: f t:.he ac:,
t..'lat. t..:,e c!.'::'f t..'la: is refe:r!l!d to could be :.1.e c.:.:;.' of 5.c • ..;cn:.'s and
t:"ley c:o~d a.cqui.:e t:."le assets as set. out.f
;..-1 hOJ, :·I::~.!.E?.: Yes,
Cour:.cil.
That. is o~ay {inaudible).
No, serious:.y, 'Jould you answa: :..>at?
I mea."l., you said it :culd no:. happen totr.orrow.
I tabled :.~e re~a.:~s ~~de by t..1.e hon.
gentle=an about ~~e Public Tende.: Act. I :."li~k ~e had ou.: little -
that is ir::elevant. now ar.d I do not . ..,.a.."lt '!O ge'! in":.O ir-relava.. ... C"'l,
:·!R. S!!:t:..::<G: ~kay, t.ut ycu :::ar. see t.. ... e Za.ais ur.Cf': .... ~ • .:.:::n
3740
Nove~~er 29, !979 rape 1487 i::C- :!
no: make our respec~ve bloods ~oil.
Okay.
H.? •• acw, as this par:.icular ac-: r.ow is -
!A.P •• S'!!'RL.I:IG: ?..ight.
it will not, ... ·:.en i-:. is passe::!,
regional gcverr~nt.
Yes, but your are not answering r:.y
quese1.on.
these decisions .,ill l:>e :nade l::.y governr..ent in acccrda..~ce wit.'1. :;,e p:ov!.sions
'-in t..'1e l:>ill :..tself, a.."\ci t.':.ere J.re ve:;y careful ;;ro~t:.sions. l: ::-.ear., t.::e
'WecigewooC. ?3.r:~ or t:"'.e town o: Y.o~t. ?eel.
:.JR. S':'I ~.:.:~;3:
I suppose you coulci -~ any:..'-J..:.ng .
.t :nea;:., t.~e powers t.\a:. ~•ave been ;:or.iarreC. -
50 HE EO:;. ;.~ -!B!::?.S: G-h, ch ~
Why not :::rinq it back ':0 -:.~e !-iocsa?
'fou knew 1 t."1e:-e all scr-w; o! £01••e:-s
g:anted -:o a Cabinet. '±.at. t."'la Cai.:-in.et. can ~ in all sor:.s of aces;
t.'ley are enabling powe:-s, buc t.'le CAbinet is not. going !.o exe.:"cise
.3741
Novemter 29, 1979 Tape No. 1488 OW - l
!1R. !1ARSP..AL:.: t:...~em except:, nwr.!:ler one, .,...it.."li:l t.he
framework of the ace and, number t:·.,..o, most ::-easonably, after due
conside.:;ation after consu.!.t.ation, no:. just: :.~it.l': t.."le City of St • .;,or_ ... •;;,
but: wit.,. t:he Cit.y of Cor::.er Brook, r.ot just ...,i~~ the Town of Xount:.
Pea:l, but: wit.h, indeed, all citizens of ~~e region itself before it
is going to do it. That is the ·.,..ay. New if t..'"lat is not so, :he
government stands and falls on its decision. And certainly the best
group of people to look after ~'"le interests of t..'"le City of St. John's
surel7 ~ust be the people on this si=e of t.~e neuse or, for a ~atter
of fact, any urban region because t.."ley have seen fit t.o impose total
and ent.i.re, 100 per cent. confidence in ~is gover~~nt. Thank you.
:-t.tt. STIRL!.!JG: Thank you, !1r. Chairman. Let. :ne ask
the ?res.:s.dent:: of the Council {Hr. :1arshalll - and he is ;uite :dgh.t. -
:hat t.he goverr~ent. does ~e~~esent. ~ll of the u:ban seats in :he City
of St. John's and ~e Cicy of Corne~ Br~ok.
AH HON. :1E.'•f:!:ER: And in Uew:'oundland.
t.1.e urba."". -
SOME Hmi. ME."!.E.=.s: Oh, ch!
:-1..~. S':'I:U.!~:G: Well, let: us de~l with the two cities,
:he City of Corner Brook and the Cit.y o= St.. Jo~ .... ·s.
(Inaudible) on the appropria:e ac~.
~. S*!."!RL!~G: Sue t.he ?resident qa·.re '-~tat. appea~ed
t~ be a very logical ki::.d of at'l ex;:la.na-:.ion. 3ut. '""hen !. asked hi."!! =or
t.he same kind of con!'ir:r.ation ::::e Minister of Finance, · .. 'ho is an
honourable man .and a. :nan of fe•N words, the Minister of Finance said,
Yes I agree. ~ .... d he represents a city dist:ric-:.. Yet, on the second
day- you know the feeling t.hat you have, the sense of feeling ::hat.
now that you have been elec-:.ed to represent. the urban areas of St. John's
and Corner Brook, that. it really :!oes not make az'l.y diffe:ence, we ca::.
just force t..."J.:rough whateve:: ··e war.t, -::he people love us. one of e.::e
dist=ict:s represent=d- a ~n by the na:ne of Mayor Sam Co~-"".ors, who
is in ::."J.at su.e ~ban a.::ea you are talidng a.bcut, ?U:suar.-: -=.o you.::
3742
November 29, 1979 Tape No. 1488 rs-2
:elegr~ which the miniseer has
refer:ec:i to, "! feel :..1.e auehor:i.t:y should rema.i:l. '"'i~h the House ct
Asseml::Hy and not. just. the ·:'abinee. as all :nembe:s of the ::ou;;e are
elec":ed .re!;lresent.aeives of ~he pec!:Jle."
M..'l"{, AARSH..;I.L:
member intend to table that?
definitely.
HR. MARSHALL:
M..~. ST!!U.I!OG:
figure I have made up -
:1..":"t. ~.Ai'..SP.AL:::.:
A point. of orCer. Does ':..1.e hon.
Oh all of it, 5efinieely. Oh yes,
We would like e.o see ehe -
Oh, su<re, no question. r.:nless you
No, no, no. ! would nee • ~n t.~ac
point of or~er, Mr. Speaker, I ~uld never, never :i.nsinuace t.hat the
hon. member or a:1.y member made up anything but it is just the rules o:
ehis House t:Oa't. 'Nhen somebody, you kno...,, quotes f:-om a d.ocu:nene it has
to be tabled. So, you know, if the hon. member is quocing :ro~ a
teleg:am i~ shoul~ repose here with the records of ~he House :or
posterity sa.'<e.
I will do, right.
I am sure ':1'f learned !=ienC.,
:1r. Chairman, ...,ould be only coo ':la;?py to file che telegrams he has
and, of course, if the ?resi::ient of the Council (t-b:·. :tarshalll
would like another thir't.een or ::curteen sucn telegra::~S he :nigh':.
easily obta~n them from my districc.
!<!R • .MARSHALL: I would be •;ery ir.t~res ted, ver'f
interes::.ed.
MP.. MORGAN: {Inaudible) e•.re:y councl.l in the
Province.
MR. ST!?..Ln:G: ~. Chai~~. r am glad that the
members have brough't. it ~p because r =onsicler it ~~e duty of the
members of ':his si:ie of e.!'le House ':hac it e.ha people on the ocher
side of 't..'-.e House ccnsider ':hat t:hey Co ::ot: need ::o .'..nfor.n -:he
the Federatl.on of ~~~icipali:ies bu't. r repeat, again, I have respec-:
3743
November 29, 1979 Tape :-Ia, 1439 :3-3
:t.tt. ST!RLI~1G: for ~~e ~inls~er of ~u~icipal Affairs.
~~d if you are no~ going :o do your job, if you are ~ot going ~o do
~"l.e job of informing your :::oun:::ils of '4hat: is !:)eing done, then by a 11
means I consider ic our :esponsibility >::a fill t:..'-le vacuum lef~ by ?:)U
people who have not: sent cue ~"l.e informa:ion. And I ~e no apology.
As a matter of fact, I will do the same thing again on any ot~er piec~
of legisla~ion ~~less t:..~e oinister agrees who set it out.
Set-tE HON, Y-=''13EP.S: Oh, oh!
The same people who saved the hon.
gentleman's press releases.
M?... ST!?.LI!iG: The same people who are going to ?aY
all ~~e t~~es in this Province.
3744
!lovember 29, 1979, Tape 1499, Page 1 -- apb
SO$ EON. ~'!BE?~:
MR. CF.A!?J'A.~ (Bai:::-d) :
SCM£ HON. !10!BEF.S:
M:lt. CHAIF.Mi\.'l:
MR. XOP.GA.'l:
A.."i HON. ME.\!BER:
value.
MR. C?,.AIR. .. !.~N:
Ch, oh:
Shall clause 2 carry?
Oh, oh ~
Order, please~
A waste of the taxpayers' money.
Cheaper ~~an one minister and better
The hen. ~e ~e~er for Bor.avista Ncr~.
Mr. Cb.air.:an, I ~"tin.k. :."le t:.h.ing ~at ;.oe
have established at ~~is point -
AJl HON. ~!-!BE?.:
got Roger's seat.
SC!1E: Hml • ~'3 EES :
!<!a. ST!?.LIHG:
He did what Walter carter could not, he
Hear, hear~
I think, :-!::. Chair:nan, t..~e :.hing that •..Je
have establish~d at ~"lis ?oint is that ~"lis Regional Gove~~ent Act
ver1 definitely does apply eo both -=.he City of St. John's and :.he City
of Corner Brook.
AN HO~i. ME!-!BSR: Of course it does.
:-!!'.. S'I':?.r..::;G: And t."lat al<;.hough - and I thi:-.k <:..":.at ::..e
Minister of !1unicipal A!=a~rs has been dor.e an injustice by his
colleagues because :..'ley ha•;e 3...!.lowed hi::l co say to ::..1-:.e peopls of St .
.John's anc. e.,e people of Corner Brook, 'Relax, do not -...orr.{ al::out i ':,
you a:e not affec'ted by this ac't.' And ~:.~-=Y have now ac.m.i::.'te':i
AN HON. MDSER: What clause are you on?
MR. STI?.LING: - we no admit it under definitions,
under definitions 1 ;.;.e have nco;.,· gotten agreement !:om ~e government:
that because e.~s side of ~":.e House made t.~e govern~en't recognize that:
you ca~~ot slip a veri important sec~on of ~,e act, like the Regional
Goverru:~er.:t: Act, in and slip in cities, :-.ot defined, but 'He have
established, 'He now have aqreem.e::.t for a nwr.ber o:: th.ings. cr.e is
that regiot'.al governmen't can apply on the day after this is procla.i::~ed -
the !iinist:e:::- o= ::":!..."lance ag:::-ees - on ~i.e day aft,;;r :his is ?roclai::~eC.,i£
t..'le Cabir.et so ~esires, regional government can be brou;ht in t.."lat: will
3745
!~vember 29, 1979, Tape 1439, Page 2 -- apb
~. STL~IG:
City of Corner Srook.. I have taken it t..~at we have establisheC. t:h.a:
the minister will take it u.~der advisement, whe~~er or ~c::. he is
actually going to define t..lte cities.
MR. CF..AIP-"'-:...."1:
Affairs and P.ousing.
on motion, clauses 2 through 9, carried.
The hon. t..~e :<Jinis'ter of :.-!unicipal
!-!.B.. WINDSOR: I assume you have called clause D,
:1%'. Chairman. Have you?
MR. CHAIP.M.;N:
!-!.R. WI}.'TJSOR:
Shall clause 10, carr!?
Mr. Chairman, on clau.se !.0("2) :ny
colleague t..~e President of the cou.~cil, if he ~e:u~s L~ ti~e. will
be ~reposing a sligh't arnen~~ent,basically,in clause 10, sec'tion :.
The word 'town' is st--uck ou't and ~,.e word 'municipali'ty' rep:ac=d.
aasically, all this does is change t.~e • ... urd, pu-::s L~ ':::unidpali'ty'
where the word 'town' was. It is quite si:r.ple ant:! straightfor .. ·a:::L
AN HON •• ..r.:-st:?.: Ca.r:y?
XR. CHA:R.'1A1-l: Shall clause 1 -
MR. RCS~F.TS: '!'he minister canr.ot !:'.ove his o .... T.
amend:r,ent:.
:1R. "..l!NDSOR: ~ro, no. The neuse Leace:- i.s ;oi:-.g t:.~
1n0ve the me t.ion .
MR. ~~HALL: I t:.~ought I haC •.:hispe::ed to :!'.e -
MR. ROBERTS: Oh, no, open gove.r:-.rl'.ent :.s O!?e~
government.
Open gove~ment, Mr. Chairm~n. in order
to make it official, I :rove t:.he arnend:r.ent o£ clause 2{2) by
striking out. -
A."i HON. ME."!B::R:
!1R • :-ru..5 P..A.!..L :
10(2).
10 \2)- by striking out:. :..1-:e ...,o:C. ''::own'
and t..~e worC 'm~~icipality' replaces it so that. section 10~2} would
read; ''•rlhe::e a nocice of intent. i:; :o be .;:ublished by t.he :·!i:-.iste:-
ur.der s'..!bsec-::ion (!) t:.'"l.at. directly af:ect:.s a munici;:ali::y, ':..'"1e
Minister shall give a prior notification of his intent: to so publi$~
it t.o :..1-te council of t.."lao; :nunicipality."
November 29, 1979, Tape l499, ?age 3 -- apb
MR. ROBERTS: Do you want to put the a::.enc!ment 7
A!-1 HON. ME.'13E?.! (Inaudible) .
I am prepared to ha •,"'e :..~e amendment:,
bue :r cannot speak for anybody else.
on motion, amendme~t, carried.
MR. ROBERTS: In t...~e unlikely event t:he ;cve::nment
do somet...~i."'lg sensible, we a:e prepared to go along with it:.
Could I come back to clause - we
are still on t...~at group, are ~e? one to one?
AN HON. !S."1SER: One <O nine.
""· ?.OEE:R':'S: One to nine.
!i..~. !-!AF.SHA!.L: We have passed that.
""· P.OB~TS: We did it? Well., I will r:1ise .l.t
under section 16 then unless I am given leave :.o revert :.o section
4. It is all the same to :ne.
I will not ask questions about: sectior.
4, but, I mean, I can do it ~~der section 16 because ~~ey are
related, one to t:he other.
!1R. ~RSHAL::.: To show, ~.r. Chairman - t:..':.e hen. mer..b.:r
was out of Commi.t;tee a :'!'!Oment. age when I ~o~as s::ea.~ing of ho·...
cc-operative t:..':.e government wished to be, and t:his is an exa~pte o=
how co-operacive ~~e governmen~ is. ~e are qui:e happy t:o revert: ~o
section 4.
!"-l:t. ROB ER':'S : Your Honour, I ~ank ~y learr.ed
friend. There is .a very old saying, "9ewa.re of Greeks bearing
gi£ts", and! say, 'Beware of ~.arshalls bearing forces', you kno•H.
374'7
Tape 1490 E;C - l
Jh, on!
:-t.D.. F.OSt?'.'!'S: However, be that AS it t:'.ay, I a:n
gra.tef".ll to cy hon. friend. and ... ta.<e his ••orC.S in exac~y ':.~e. :lpirit.
in wr~~~ ~~ey were proffered, Sir.
r just w~~ted t~ ask - Sec~cn 4 (2)
w~1ic.lt relates to Sec~on l6. I assura -.,.on. gcn:tl.e."ll.en cp;csite,
I ~~ink I have enough wit ~ut me - at least hal!way ~ere, ':.0 -
~4 5TA-:;G;
!iit. FDSERTS:
C.!bine:. -
!!?.. RCSE?.::S:
I am glaG you realize ~~at,
(Inaudible) .
h'as r gci:lg to have :o wha:::?
Are you going to have ':0 Una~.:d.ib:.e)
i~o, 't...1.e hen. gentletr.a.."l si1.o1.;lC root
on, on~
and ten or e..relve ahcaC. of '!."'.e
Ch, oh;
'lour iio:-.our lS being 'Nn-!.sz:e::ec. at. for
some reason. Pees 'lour :ionour ·..ra.."t':. t.o do so::e:.."t!.r:g'? Go a.heaC, I Wlll
:tielci to Your Honour.
In accordance wi. -:..1. standing QrC.er Jl (~:) ,
I rise so the Speaker may i.."tdi::ate the !:'.atters t;~ be raisec! at :...~e
Late Show.
~~. SPEAKER: (Si~s) Order, please!
It is now S:OO ? .!·!, and ! can infor.n
t.he House t.'la.t! have received notice of or.e maeter for debate ae 5:30 ?,:·1, 1
'Jhen a :notion to acljour:l will be d.~emed to be c'.!fore tile House. \~oo;!.:e is
qiven by ~"le hon. ';..'-te ::e~.Oer !cr Sonavist.a ~:or-... "'1 (!A.r. SCrling), ar:..sir.g
3748
Nove::-.ber Z9, 19i9
!-IR. c:H;..IR.'-!.A!i: ( SairC)
Qelle Isle,
Tape 1490 ::: - 2
M.P.. roa£.a'!'S • Your Honou=, ! was speaking wi t.'i.
:-eferer-:e t:.:J Sect:..ion 4, a.nd ! ·.rc'uld say :o ey non. !:!.end !:-om 3or.avist.a
Souo;;.o Wr. :·tor;anl t;.;,.at just so .,..e have '!he facts for t:.~e ::ecord, :'l.e :.as
lest:. t..loirty-t..'tree and one-third per cent:.. of t~e co:;;.:.est:s in ..,.hic.'t :-,e r.as
engaged. to dace. My record is one out o! eight, • .. ·::.ich. l.S t.;elve a...'"l.ti one
hal! per cent., which :::ear.s t..-.,.at:. ;.,e is t:.:;,:ee :i:r.es as baC. as ::: a::t, .anC.
I t..~M ~'tat. is a pro tty fa.ir ::atio. ! would t..'"lir-..:.; t..'la-:.
X?.. S'rAGG: That is pret.t.y bad.
:-t:t, ?.OSER'I"S: Yes 1 t:..'tat. is prett:..y bad, I ...,ould say t:..o
my friend fro~ St:ephenville (Hr. Stagg). Anybody wno is t.~ree ~tr£s as
bad as I a.:t is pret:.cy bad inC.aed, and t:...'tat:.. is not even getting close to
=rJ friend !roo Stephenville.
MR. ?..CSE? • .'!S t
MR. STAGG:
~;ow, t:..o eo me ~a!:k to Sect.:.. or ....
! ~ ~~ree !or ~~rea ~fst::.
1 am sor:-y?
all he !.acks is t:...'1e courage to go ·.;hen he k.~ows he is ;oJ.r.g eo !.osa a.~.::.
I pre.Cict:.. he will r.~e r'.m aga.!.n L~ t:...'tree o: !ol.!r years when :.'1e Fre::.ie::
ciissolves.
:-t?.. 5 'IAGG : r am :..'"linking a.Zot.:.t:.. going dow~ :o t..'le
Serait o: 3elle Isle.
:-m. ~BE?.TS t : hope ~~at:.. :.~e hon, gentleo~'"l woulC
corr.e down t.o the Strait of aelle Isle ar.d he '.JOulC. not ecce :ack. ne
wot.:.ld go dow~ there but. he would not come bac.tc.
He is too smart !or t:..'tat.
i.'hat woul::i happen t:.o t:..1.e ~n. gentlemar.,
Sir, woulC. ::~a.ke what. happeneC. i::. i:l' ar-:1 :·t<:Gee look like just. a ·.rarm-'.llJ
qaJr.e and :.:-.ere :..'i.e ~era!. :;ot 97 per cent of t:...~e "JOte. ;,.:1d : .... oul=.
3749
Hove:::ber 29, 1979 'l'ape 1..;91) 2C - J
MR. PDSERTS: and t.'1e o:.he::- ·nte ·.•ould be spoiled.
Sow, Sir, as ·..,.e ..,.e:e saying l::le!o:e
I was so rudely in:.e:-rup:.aci '::Jy :.''le gentleman from St.ej?i1envi!.le {:1::. Sta;gl 1
who I '"'Oulc! point o..:-:. t:o 'iour Honou: is out of order -
SOME HO:i. :fE.!-SERS: Hear, hear!
MR. ?.OSE?.'TS : - as he frequently is. He is noc in
his seat. We need a seat ~elt for ~,e han. gentleman.
SOME m::<t, :r.:''-!SE?S: Oh, ch!
MP.. PLiSEF.TS : :-lot even his ;:ar<:.i' can keep him :.:1 his
sea:.
:;c.,.. 1 Si: 1 I say t.o t:.'le gen:.!e=.a.-. !r:::r..
St.ephenville, ~e o~qht eo go bac.."':. t.o t:.'le law anci a."l.swe::- his let::te:s,
SOME EC•i. :·!E.:1E.ERS: Oh, oh!
Hlt. C1AIR!·1A..l: (Bai:d) ?.eleva.."l.c:e.
i?::ayer says, 1 :.ead us no<;. int.o te:::pt.ation, • and. ,....e :1eecl to .1even t:.o
:..~at, Si:, because ! am 1e:l in:.o te::'lpt.at.ion. I am just: led as-:.::-a·:' :.y
hen. gent.le~2n opposite,
• "!..~ .. BARP.ETT:
MR. OOBEF.':'S:
Fina..'1ee {D::- ..... Collins l , .,..as it.?
(Mr. aa.::ret-:.)?
Now, to come back to Sec~on ...
t:asily lee. •
I am scr:::-"j. :·ly f::-ienC.. :..-.e :·u.nister c!
o:- t.."l.e gentleman :ro~ 5:. • ..:onn•;; 'fias:.
The gentie:r.an f:or:: St • .:onn's ;.;~s:..
1 see. T~e r..inis:.e:- is not guilty,
Would t."te gentlema.."l. from St. John's West ca:e to r~pea-:. t:.~at. for :..'".e
benefit of us all.
AN fiCH, ME!1BER:
MR. ROBE:?.TS:
The l.aader of t.'le Opposition ll'.r.s:. ~e e.as:ilv ler!.
I agree I am 'easily led' and if I •·•e re
easily dt:?ed, r .,..auld be '..rhe::e t.'le ben. gentler:tan is, as cp,?os~C. :o ·..;r.e::-.:
I am.
P.elevane:,.: please.
I :.."link :..'lat is 'i:Uite :-eleva::.t., Sir.
I t..'link t.."l.e ion.. gent.lena."l is verf easily mlSled if ne ineends :0 vot;
3750
;..;ovet:lber 29, l979 ':'ape l49J EC - 4
!1? •• RCBE:~TS: fo::: t..';.is ~ill. I ·,..ould say ~e shoulci
go back t.o s:.u.C.ying his book and writ.ing insurance cont.ra:t.s or wnat.ev-=r
he was doing.
Section .; , .....-nicb. is where I bega."l. -
and I want. t.o t.b..ar.k the ?::esident. of t...-,e Council (."i.r. :-ta.rshall) for
allow:.ng t:.a to eo:r.e back to Section 4, whic.~ saves me raising i:. 1!.'1Cer
Section 16 I want to kr~w whe~1ar ~~e minist.e::: in~ent. is - it. is a
wu:t.er of i:nj?lement.at.ion. Sec't.ion 4 {l) says t.ha.t. an order made under
S.a:e~ion 3 - a..".d. Seet.icn 3 is e..:...e general
3751
!Iovem.be.:- 29, 1979 Tape No. 14 '31 GH-1
recommendation of t.l-te minister and af-=.er a :easibilit'l st:u.::l'y eo est.ablisi1
or t~ dis-establish. You ~,ow, it. is t.he power - it is t.he real gucs of
the bill i~ that. sense. Now, it is necessa~J in looking at Sec':icn 4
t.o go do~,o,;:. to Section 16, which says and I belie•re .t. ': is in orde:: t:~ read
it, Sir, "The elected or appoin'!.<!d status of existing :own coun.:ils,
rural district councils or boards o! local improvement .::l'istricts continue
until changed by the Lieutenar.t-Gover:-.or i!'l Council under Section .:.:' Nhic:~,,
of course, as ¥cur Honou.r will appreciate, brings us back. -:o Section ....
whi=h is Nhere we began. And S2ct~dn 4 (i) and 4 (~i) and 4 (iii) ;:ve
ceruin power to :.he Lieutenant.-<:iove::r.or !.n Cou!'lcil.. Nc'""• "'hat I simply
wan'!. to know is how those t.Wo relat.e to one an-::t.l;.er -::r, specific.all:;,
;:erha?s :.:·us is e..1.e bes-;; '.fay to ;u'!. it., is it. t.he minister's intent:.!.c:-. -
ar.d remember t.1.is ac-: does no'!. come into force :Hvision ;:y cl.!.visior.,
i: co:::es .!.n like a ton of :;ricks, 'lO'J. know, on th: :!a•' w!-.-=:-:. i: ce-rnes :.n.
':'he •,.(hole t.,i::g corr.es in a-:: once, holus-bo:.•.:s - is it h.i.s i..,tent..ion
to make or::!ecs ::onfi:m.l.ng !:he 309 ccuncils we ha•.re - and he l.S noC.Ci:-.g
acqu.:.escence - ehe onl:r· trou.bl: •..:lth <:.hat. :..:::; it. is twofold. :·:t:.::.l::er cne,
! ~~y not have ur.ders:ood hi~. ~,d secondly a nod, ~hile it. may ~e
as good as a . ..,.ini<, does not appea: in HansarC.. So, ! invit.e :he
minist.~r :o gee to his fee: and tell if ~~ ~~derseanding is corre:::..
'fou Mo.,., is he going to ma.~e art order under sec'!.ion 3 si:.?li' con!ir=.ing
ehe status of every exist~ng ounicipali:y ln ~ewfour.dland as of t.he
date of procla~tion Q: :.hl.S ac~.
The han. the :-tinister of :1unic.!.pa!.
Affairs and Housing.
MR. '.it!iDSOR: Well, ~. Chairman, ! 'Jill do as -::he
hon. :necber did ar.d start in Section 16, if I :nay, which refers to local
:nent dis-::=ic-::s, ·.rhi::h as hon. gent:.le::tan know ',.(~ll not. really exis-:
"ies, they •..till be co:r .. ""ur.~cie=,
se:vice areas and -
or local service d~s~lc-::s a~d {inaudible).
All :..1.is is doi::g he::e is '±.a: i..:1 :..'-le
interi~ pe::iod, this .,.ill not hap?en overnigh:., and it will be phased
Nov~er 29, 1979 Tape No. 1491 GF.-2
:.tR. WI!OSO?.:
elec-:ions righ~ away, we may hold of! •..:..ntil t..~e nex<:. municipal
elections in scme;:ases, which is 1981 I think. auc t.."".e i:lten-:. !.s to
move racher quickly, but t..~a~ has to be done on ~~ individual basis.
So th.ese c1J.uses, basically the:e for that t.=ansiticn so >:hat
we can cake a local imp~ovemen-:. district:, as referred to in Sec':.io~ l~,
and change it under Section 4 1 ".~here we can ::.hen designate it to have
an elected status.
The hen. me~~er for the Strait of
Belle Isle.
MR. ROB~RTS: I eh~~ t..~e ~inister and : just WL~t
it to be clear. I mean, what he says seems to be very 3e~sible ~nd
reascnable, that. ever-J exis~ing ::ouncil will cont.inue Ln t'o:::e ',l."ltil
such ti:ne as it is char.ged, and eve:- a ;;:eriod of tJ.r:le t!1.ey ·.;ill all b·2
cor.fi.::ned. Some :nay be confir.:~ed in a new :o:m.. Ha·tir.g :!_!..:;posed of
that, c~~ I go on and as~ as a. dt.izen of t.he muni:::ipal:.ty o! -::te !.oc.:al
Izprcv~ent Dist.rict of Hogan's ?c~d, what. is ~~e i~tention or is :here
one at this stage wit.h respect to ;..rha: is a very small ::un.l.:ipa.ii:~:
but a very 7l.bra."'lt. and ef!ect.J.•Je :orce 4:..t.hin :."'.e ·..;or!:! ::.:: :::.unicipal
gove:-n:ner:. c.
'1J.:Cra."1t:. ar.c! ti:-.aud.i!:;le).
'les, I might poi!".t. o•.:-:., as ::-ty colleague
next. t.o me i.ndi:::.:~.t.es, that. :..,_ey a.::-e ce:-"ta;.nly a very economically viable
one. They had ::ero ::evenue, zero ex;;endit.ure a.~d ze:o budget.t.i:'l.g.
!>LO.. ROBERTS: aut. a great. zoning cone:::ol.
MR. wnmso:t: Sue ~~e quest.ion as it :elates to
Hogan's Pond, it w.ay very '-'-911 become, automatically, !..t would seern,
:o becom~ a :own council. Tha: ma1 not be desirable for it. :o be a
:ull-fledged -:o· .. T. and have all the responsi=ili<;ies and autllorit..ies
vested .ln a to~n. ! chink i~ may be more Cesi:able to ciesi;~a-:.e i~
as a local service distri~t, w~ich does not have all o= :ha~ respo~sibi~ity
anC ~he electi~r. proceCu:es and ~~~t sort a: ~~i~g. !~ will b~
3753
~ovember 29, 1979
Belle Isle.
!1R. RCB£:t!'S:
Tape No. 1491 GH-3
The hen. mer.ber for the Strait of
~ell, I C3n appreciate that the s~~us
of the Local Improvement District of Hogan's ?and is ~ar~ly the :op of
ehe minister's concerns, ncr should it be, and it is not
the top of my concerrs, nor should it be, but it is a concern. : thin.lc
~~e minister may have dealt wi~~ it. ! simply want to say, obviously,
whatever will be done, we ass~e ~ill :e done in consultation with the
council ~~er~. There is some suggestion it should Cc incorporated into
the contiguous town of St. Phillip's, ~1d I ~o not think r would object
to ::.i.at as a citizen of Hogan's ?end. Some of 'l!Y fellow citi:ens may,
sea~ ~y not, I ~o not know.
;..N HCN. :.!E!i3ER:
!1R. ROBERTS:
11'hac is :.he f:Opul.ation there no..,·?
! think it is 110, 110, and t.."l.e llO,
are no better and no worse than an~where els~. they include Jo~~ cros~ie
who li•1es at the rich ?eople' s end and mj·self who lives at: ~he ;cor
people's end, and there are a nuroQer of good people ~n ~eeween.
i"'.ogan's Pond ...,as set up originally- and, you k."low, i-;. is an anomaly
ar~ it may well ~e desirable ~o ~o something in due course - it ~as s~c
up originally to ?revent -
!<t.R. Wl!'!CSOR: Development control.
M.G.. :tcSEF.':'S: Yes, it was development control anC
it ..,as t'..'le only O.ev~ce '"e coul::!. find, and it had an unusual paternity.
I believe it was incorporated while r was a me~er o: the Cabinet, and
it was re-incorporated 'Mhile :tr. Crosbie was a me!t'~er of -:.he Cabir.e:,
and 1 do not think ei~~er of us declared in our Conflict: of Interest
statements ~~at we lived at Hogan's Pond. Mr. Crosbie has only a summer
residence ehere.
DR. COl:.Z.I!!S: !t is not a tax haven.
3754
•tove~r.Cer 29, 1979 Tape l4.92 :-m-
H!t. ROBER'lS t :~o. i~ is r.oo;. a tax l-taven, h:.~ as t..'1e
minister says, i: is a vert good municipality fir.ar.cially. re :ar.C~=~
no services, and it levies no taxes, but it does have,I :::.elie•te, an.
a.dequace set of clevelcpn-.ent ccntrols, and incieeC. is a vert liti;:.cus
con:cuni :y. I Delieve t.hey have been l..n the ;ou:-t:.S a nu.:r.oer of :i:::gs
enforcing their by-laws, I think, and. I C:."link wit..'l success. :·1:.
David Day, eminent council -who also has a house on Hogan's Pcr.C -
ilas represeneecl tilell". in :.er ;~aje:o~::·'s cour:s ... i:h resul~ !avot.ora:::le
tc t:.'le cause ::.e .:as advocating. ct.viously the :ratter gees ~eyor.C ~1i.:>
J:;ecause t.'1e.::l! are - !t is necessary to conti:~.ue c:~'.lncils, I do no::
need eo go into that. In the case o! place lii:e EogJ.n 's ?one, _
just '.ia,nted assurance t:}oat nct..'1l.ng ~~o"ill ce C:One ·o~it:'.cut a:. l.<!as:.
eons~.:oltir.g t.""le citi.:er.s t.'lere. ~t:,· fea:, quite sirnply, is t:.ha': t.'le.re
are some people- noe the council of St. 2hillips t h<iSt:.en '::o aC.d -
who t.link :hat:. t:.e trick. is ::o incorporate an area like hcgan's ?one,
to levf a wacking great:. ?rope~y :ax ar.C. provide ~o services, because
t.he people of Hogan's icnci ~o;oulcl be·r.o Oeo:ter of.! should >:hey be in-
co~orateci in eo a ~r.unJ.cipali ti" t..'1.a.."l. :aey a.re eocl.a:t. 'l'hey ::.:.;nt. :..e
rr.ueh worse off if they were faeecl. wi::n $500 ~r a SlJOO ~ax bill.
':hat p.rcClern is not uni::;:u~ to Hoga."l.' s r:mC.. L"l t..oe lcr.g run •..;e .3-ll
have eo pay whaeever :.'le fair shot:. is as ;:art of the sccie:.y in · ... nid". · .. e
live. ! just want:. to be sere it will not be done wi:.'lo~t ~c~sulta:ior..
21? .• WI!iDSCIR: :.tr. Chairi:".an, :;.eraars :r. can. jus:.
clarify a ;:oufle of points fer ::he hen. gent.lemar.. his q'.last:.icn u
well taken by the "'·ay. 'l'he worse tilat could happer. .,.,..;.t::-.out =cnsulcaucn ;:.s
~~at we might: :ake it a town instead of a local irr~rover.en~ distric~.
\o'hich would have ~:O:.e owners {inaut!.:.bl£)
council a.nd to decicie if t~ey want to tax t:.1.ea.sel·tes or pr~wide any
ser--11.ee and t.'1.at sort of ·ching. I cl.o not t:.1.ink chat. is any bu.::Cen c::
anything \.:!'.usual. !! it ~.;ere to be change:: t:.c teccrr.e part cf s::..
Phillips or an:r,...::tere else, then t..'lat. would r.ave ~ be C.cr.e on t.:J.e ::.as is
of a feasibilicy scuC.y •,;hich includes mar.cl.ato!"'f pub!.ic hea:inp.
3755
dove:..Cer 29, 1979
HR.TH0!1S:
Tape 1492 ~:a - 2
On i!'.oeion, C1at:..Se 4 ca:::rie:::.
Shall c:ause 11 to 20 car:::~?
Tl:e hon. ~r.et:ber for Grar,d aar.k.
I · .. ould ll.;<e to ask t..:.,a :r.inister -
I would l.D:.e for him t.o give n;e t.be ratior.a.l~ .. 18 (2). for exar.tj?le,
I notice says "h11ere a clause is a."'t elec-:ed one it :nay, by resolution
ca:::ied Oy two-thirds voce cf: t;:oe councillors in c ffice." tic,.,,
:..'lrouqhout. t:.1e act th.ere ;;.:e rr.ar.y, r..any, ::1an1 ci.ecisicns :..~ • .lt can
only Oe taken by a t.·..-o-thi:-Cs vote of :_: .... e councillors. 'Io ;:-;e this
seec-s to go .a.gainse. t.:.,e nonr.al procec!u.-~. the nor::-,al ..:ay of C.oinq .:.t
~o.'hicil is a si:r.ple :::ajo::ity. '-'"a can defea; t.:.,e 'iOVerrur.ent. on ::.:,is
house if ...-e hapfoer. to find less me:..Ders over there :::.y one ~"lan is
over hare. ':'he govermr:.ent o£ this Z::ovin~ can i:e de!eat.e:i. the
gove:-n.."nent of canaC.a ::.:m ::e defeated by a s!.tt:ple :r.ajorit:y. this \o.ll1ole
act 1 "Wner. further eve:- -..e tal/c allout s~srer.zicns, there is l:.t.era1:1
doz.ens cf references l.n :.."Us act: ;.;,1ere it: seet:.s :.o r:-.a t."lat ... e rea.lli
do :l.Ot:. t:.rust the cour.c.i.ls t:o ma.K.c t.'l.e ri;hL C4cJ.sior.s, and :.."tat ;.oe
are forcing en t.o t.:1.etr. t..r.e two-ti:ir:is ::ule. ::.r.ere is JUSC a VL::'j'
si::ple ;uest:.icn - I •·•ould like -:o ask t!.£ :1inis:.e:- if ;;,e cou.ld =:r.~!.ain
to =e •hat ~'1e rationale is behind having so tr~ny t~ings in :..'1is act:.
gover:-.ed by a t.· .. ·o-t.'1i:-ds •;o:.e.
:1::. C.1ainna.n, basically ...,here :.•e t·,.;c-
t.hirds vot:.e is !:>:!<;.uired ·,.;o•.lld te on :tajor :!eci:oicns o£ CCU."lcils •here
·..,e feel t..'J.at. t.l-te::e real!;r should ;;e a fairly ;coci consensus ra:..her t.ha.-.
just a si::tple ~ajor:.ty, alt.'lough I tenc! to ag:-ee sctr.e·.:hac. with what :l::e
non. gent:ler::an sal::! as it. relac.es to other eltactions ar.d various t..~in~s
b1 ai::1.ple n.ajori t.itas. ':':1is i;;; ju=ot. an at.t.er~t. o~l o:.u- part to insur~
that _.here c::::unci! 'ices agree t.o t:o a carta.:.n t.1.ing, particularly ;..'he::e
thay are saiing let. us cna.n;e. our ·•hole election procedure, let us .lave
a :aye:- <.:lect:eC separa-.:el:,c. ;;e are reasonal::.li su:e t."l.at. t.'<ere is a !ai:
const.r.S'!S, t.. .. at. the .:ouncil 1s represent..:.ng a !aJ.r con::>e:-.sl.ls of :.he
::or.:.."':'.ur.it.y, tnat scrt. of ::.hi:-.g.
3756
.1ove:ci.Jer 29, 19 79 'l'ape 143~ :s - J
:.t?.. D. :iOL~'I':.': On a point: of cla.::i!ica:.ion, !1:-. :,!ir.is"~:e.::,
~c-t::..1ircis :::ajor!.t.y, t..''1at .::e!e.::.s to a f~ll :::ou.:tcil - sc•ten, ;.,hat happens
t.."len if t.."l.ere is or.ly five on a zouncil by resi;naeicn or C.ea-=.."17 ~n a
major decision o! council -.,.ould t:.e:t have to .., . .._.:..t un~l t. ..... e coc:'lcil is
brought Ui? to se•.ren or "•ould it be t•,.;o-thirds of five'?
:·rR. ~I::CSCR: I! e...1.ere are onl:t !.:.ve rr..er:i:.ers still
sitting on ccu."\cil t.:1an that is ocviow.o:ly ':he c:ou.'\cil, "'o i: is t;..·o
t.airds of five.
:'2.. :l. hCLLE'r':': ~~·ell l r.!iC. not. k."•'-"' - <:.he :!=!init.icn .:..s r:.ot de:a::.
Unless it !:eea.r.e .l.=:ss e..'lan a quo:un .• in · .. ·itic.•
case they .,.,.ould have tc have t:"le app.::cval of t.."i.e ::tinlste:: to carr-l en a.:> if
they ila.ci a quorum. and the nur.i::er si:t.ing ?resently t.~en ;..c'.lld cor.£:i :t.:t~
t..'"l.e council. lt r::a'j be a council of five :::ec.:.e::s, it t'..ay te a cour.cl:. o::
nine :r.e:rl:\!rs.
3757
:iovembe.r 29, 1979 '!3-?e .;o. l49J so - l
:,~. r.~-::!5: 3ut t.his ?<.trticula= section does say counci:!.lors in office. \
:m.. u. 'di:msoR: co~cillors i~ of!ice at that t~e. Y;s.
Or. ::~otion, Clauses ll to 20 carri.:;:•:i.
Shall :::.,,uses ll to 30 car:;-f?
:i.R. :. • ':"!:0:-15:
The hen. m.e=o..ber f.o: Grar.d ean.<..
Mr. Chai::J.n, I •..-ould lika :o go i:ack
to Section 2l of this ac't and ! b:roughe i-:: up '•<!-:en r spoke oriqi::ally
on this bill. The minis'ter. as well, ref.erreC to ~~is i~ re~ly ~=
co~ent.s ~~at r had made but I ~~ no: satis!ie~ wieh wr~: :he minist.er
question. Tnis :r:artic-.olar saceion S3.:fZ 1 " Tf.at 'N:-.ere a ·.;a::a.-.cy
:;;.ayor :or ::.e remainder of the mayor's t.er:n and has all tt.e powe=s a.n.:. sr,all
exercise ~".e dueies of ~;..e mayor". My question at t.he t:i.me to th~
for \ol'l'ut coul::i be. t..'1.ree years of a feu= ~'ear i::: i.s every fo-.:=
:..."le d.ef:"..!:::y aayor a.nd .appoi!".':. a cou."'l.cillor to <;he tO? ;.os: or C:oe.:;
position of mayor? !f he does not accept tr~ position of ~a~or
can the r.tini.:;:::er tt.en re1r.ove t..'1.e deput:r naycr from of!ice !:ecause
ta.is does no::: say the deputy mayo!:' may assur:.e :..."-e office, it says,
in a case like tha:::? A."'l.d if ':.he C.e;:;· .. ::::: ::.ayor -:..""'.en ref·.:.ses, :a:-. :::-.e
you kr.o•..r, really cur! :.;,e C.epu-;:y :nayc:- off the cou."'l.cil?
i:l. th~ event :he de?'.lty nayor .:;ays, !:O bor, r ao :.ct. .acce;?:::ir.;- ':!:<:
3758
~Icve:::l.e: 29, 1979 Tape :;o. :.;9J 50 - 2
du~ies of ~ycr.
to r..:.n i."1. t.'le nex:. pr:.vi.'1cial alecticr., :1.e Mows ho•"' u~~o~ular i-;
pa.::t.icula.: section, I think - in order to cla.:ify i::., refer to
Sec-:ion 23 whi::!l defines,· ":::n :.:1e at:sence or incapac.:.t:y of
~"le mayor t.he deputy mayor has the duties a:-.t: t.cer. ::><tall exer::.:.s~
i! a per3on ac::epts the responsibility of deput'l ~ayor he shall
also accept :.he resrons.i.bilit'l :.~:. if the ::::aj-"0!' resigr.s or dies
or ...-hat:.e'/e:, -:o: a::y reason vacates office, t.he:'l. he has t:o
accept responsit:ili:.y of ass-..:::ling :..--:at offi:e, ~"lat i:o all, .,..hich
;entie.:::.a:1 ::a.lsed; i! t.'le depu:y mayor for some reasor. d.:::es r.ot:. and be-::ause
c:.rcwns<;.ances,: for ins:.ance, n-..i:;-ht ::-,.;;,.nge, cl:.viously :;..'",o;:r., :.:1.e
cc;;.neil \o.CUld ha.ve tte rigi".-::. :o elect. f:or:~ oe~er c::a.::.cillc:s. !!
ie is :ec~~icali~es t.~e ~on. ;entla~an is concerned atout, he
could resig:1. as d.epu::r r.t.lJ'Or, sin:e ehere is no de?'J.<;.y ::::a:.:or :.::ere
~en could be an elec:.ion of a ::t<lJ·cr then :.'1.e gen-::.le::;an ccul:; be a re-eleco:a::!
deputy ::ta:to:- if he chose <;..:~ s-;.!l! t.e d.er::n:y ::.a yo::, i! you wol:-:.t :.:::
ge'.:. arot!:':..; it:r t.-..at ·~ay. But t:.ne int:.ent is t.i.ae t..'1.e Cc;u:.y ma:.tor
auec~ti:ally be:omes the mayor so t.~t he knows when ~e beccces
depu~/ mayor that he is aceepeL~; t.~at responsibility a~ ehae all
through his te:m of office he acts and keeps h~self inforrneci as
,. ... i.~ t..'le fu<;.•J.re, he just may be the mayor.
:-:R. C::JA!? .. >!A::: (:1.::. 3ai.rd)
oa.:10r re select.ed by :he seven CO'i.!11Cillo:-;;. i:ow, seven col..!ncillors
select.. t.":.e c-.ayor by a s:ec:-et 'J'Ote a~d select: t.::.e depl..!t:.Y ::l.aJ'O:' =.y
3759
::ove:::.!:er 29, 1979 Tapa :Ja. l49J SD • 3
him fo: deput:y mayor by .a secre': •.:ote, c..l-tey did not: s~lect: hi:n by
a secret 'J'Ote to b.a ma::·or. I! :.:1e :na:t-or resi;:-.s ~~u are r.o-:. givi::;
t.."'l.e council t.~e opt.ion of haV!..."J.g some ot:her councillo.: for :na:r·or.
:!? .• ::. ·.-:r:::::s:Js.: :.tr. C~air.::ar ••
and ;.;ousins-.
Mr. Chai~"l. - to respond, what. ~e are saying is :.hat: when
3760
~Io•rember 29, 1979 Tape !-:o. ~ 1494
MP-. W!NDSQ?.:
mayor, they ue also ele-::t.i:-.g him as mayor in the eve:.t t.hat: the :terson
tiley elec-:. as mayor lea•;es or resigns for any :eascn or '"'hat:ever.
So, ~~ey kr.ow ~~t, when ~~ey elect ~~ a3 deputy mayor, they ~~ow they
are also possi!:lly electing him as mayer, ar.d hopefully :.hat t..,ey . ...,ill
accept:. th.at respcnsi.bili.ey ',(hen they have ':hat:. election.
carrhd.
!-tR. C£.!\I?.!"!..::...!-:: (Sairdl
!-!.R. ?.OBERTS;
Cn moe ion, clauses 30 e.~ough t.o 50,
Shall clauses 51 t.~ro~,.;gh t.o 60 ca:ry?
! want to raise a point:., ':::"ou: Honour,
and can raise ~':., I t.~i~~. under an1 one of 3000 secticns, so let me
raise it unde: . ...,haeev-"!r one ~e are currently on, ._.hich is 51 -:o 60. ·:kay?
It has eo do with the tenure of of:icials - that is good enough fc:
relevancy. It. equally has eo do •.;::.t."l t:enure of Cabir:.e:: - ! a.":: sor=y.
not: '::)f ca::i.:-.ee, of councillo:-s, a~::i :.:. grcws out. o:, I t:.hi::k - ,..ha-:eve=
it is called - t..l;e Depar"::-• .:ne of Municipal ;;:fai.:s .;ce., <:o '"'hi::::. ':he
:ninis~e= or you refer:-eC. It. i.;; ... ::ac : .:a!.l t. ... e '~'l'ilf Jrove= a..-ne."l.dtr.en':',
because !.': was a clear ca3e of cr:.e goverl"--ne:-.e c! the c:ay, '"'hi::::-. is not:
the present:. adminiserat:ion - ! am nee sure '.Jhet.~.er e.he hen. gent:.le:nan
o;:pos:.t.e .,..as :.hen .:.:. :.he C:ab::.ne:, t.1.e mir.is-e.er '"'a.s a :nem!;er == :.:te
then minister, no..., ser:a:or, :-'.r. 'ihlliil::'! Doody, an .!St:i~.a!:lle geno;:le:!'.an,
but: like ~y ese~::-.able gentlem.:1.~ wie.h the odd fail.:.ng, a..."l.d ::.e. ca::-,e
about:. - !.t. ·Has a case of -:his neuse being :nade to legislat.e in .::espect
of one part:.icular incident, and : t:hink it was a very ~"\fair thing ~"l.cl
I said so at: t..!;e ei:ne. I am not: pa.r-:icc.larly concerned to :ring 'J? the
name c: the i~dividual, because ~hat is done is done, but che provision
is chis, tha: c:te Cabir.ee ~ay dismiss a me~b€= of a ::ouncil :or cause.
!f FOSsibl'l we should adore a
p:-i~ciple that:. Cabinec. ca.-.noe, c.:-.ae only a :;:!;)c.=t or a neut:ral, :toe k:~.ow,
~., ~par~ial Cody could do it, !:lut ~1.ae wou:d be a very q=eat:. depar~u:e
f:-cm what:. has been :.he p:-acc.ice over the years. ! :io not know of ~any
376.1
November 29, 1979 Tape !io, 1494 GH-2
'
M?.. ROBERTS: :ases where a c~unc~llor or a council
has ~een dis~ssed. There may have ~een several, bu~ ! cannot recall
very many, ~~d I think it is fair to say :hat where there have been some
there is a case to act upon. It is a power which has not been used,
that I am aware of, unwisely, and so I do not really quarrel wi~, the
minister or the Cabinet - ! am not sure where ~,e power is vested but -
Cabinet.
MR. ROSE..~S: - Cabinet - for all practical purposes
they are the same. I ~~an, a Cabinet will act almost inevitably upon a
recommendation of the minister in a ~~tter of this sort, aL~st
inevitably will not act against his recommendation. I mean -
MR. WINDSOR: Not necessarily.
MR. ROBE..ttTS: Well, t..1.e minis~e: says, "!lot
necessarily", .but, you :<.'low, if the m.ini.st.er is as good as r chink
he is, which is hal:f aS good as he thinks he is, t.hen he '"'ill have
his way on a ma1:t.er o:f Cabinet involving his own depart:..~nt.. I ~ean,
I do not. t.!"link the :ninister •.;oul.:l. :nake a recommenda':.icn t..l-tat would not:.
be ac::ep:a.:::l, to his colleagces, bu-:, howe•rer, that is nei':..i.er here no:-
there, •.o~e ·.,.ill never know t.!'lat.
Wna-:. concerns me is t..~e fact t.hat:. l!
the Cabinet. dismisses a person from m~~icipal office and ~i.en, subseq~ene.ly,
there is a by-elece.ion ordered and t..i.e people, the ci:izens, of that
constituency, be it a town council or •.thae.ever it is - it is not a
constituency in the sense of a dist=i.ct unde: the House ~f Assembly Ace. -
that, you now, t..1.ey are asked to elect a new member, and ehe individual
who has been dismissed is prohibieed from running. Now r ~ink that ~s a
most offensive piece of legislation, and ! have been looking :for an
opportunity - I say to you quite candid.1.y, Hr. Chairman - to raise it:.,
and ! do not intend to debat.e at any g~eat. lengt::h. ! will say what:. I
have t::o say, anC then, perhaps, t.."le minis'tar 'Jill •..tish to speak. maybe
one or 'two other members. You know, it is a mat.ter :hat I ::.hin~
ought. t:.o be aired. I t.hink it is cost offensive becaus.a it goes against.
ehe •;er-J principle of democrac:t. Well, let:. 'J.S t.ak.e a legislature,
3762
November 29, 1979 Tape No. 1495 rs-1
MR. ROBERTS:
and there are cases in canada. There was one recently in British
Colum.bia. where a ::ne:nber of :he t.egulature was convicted of a, a
for::ner minister, he was t.hrown out of t."le C.!!.l::l.i."let, dis:nissed by the
P-remier quite puhl,icly, convicted of an offez.se a.nd .t believe t."loi
conviction is unQe= appeal. In British Col~~ia it was. I believe
~,e conviction is under appeal. So Z know nothing in any event of :he
merits of ehe matte: and ! could not Qiscuss i~ even if : did. rf it
is uncle: appeal it is u."lde: t:he su.b judice :ule. Sut, you k.."!.ow,
he was convicted. That much is a fact, a matter of record and ! believe
o.:.:,e matt:er is under appeal under th.e relevant: la••· Ar.d th.a. ~ is fai.r
enough. That . .,.ill be resolved in Whatever '<~ay it is resolved. But
new ti'.at gentlei:~an exerc:tse.d his righes and he ran again i."l ':.he ge.'1ea.l
election. He was a candidate in the general election held subsequently
in British COlumbia and he was re-elec:ed. Now1 t.iat. to me is t.he '<~ay
things oughe t:.o work. Now,.o~hea ! say:nct ough~ to •crk in t.he ::oense
_<;.;,at. is up to the constituents; o•.it he ought
' to ~~ve been able to offer himsel!. A."":d there are b.u.ruireds of other
t-recedent.a. I :eferred to, ~~e ot.her day, to ~~ of the ~est =~~ous
ones, :-'.r fl.ot..i.schild who •.roul.d not take the oath required of a .::h:ist.ian
to te a member of e.:,e House of Ass~~ly. ArA, yo~ know, it may seem
to be another ·.;orld and mayl::<! l.t:. waa. It was less than a centt.:rf ago
i.! :::emory serves me cor:-ectlY ·o~hen co take a seat L• the neuse of
Co=nons :rou had to swear an oa c.h that. you were a Chr is-:ian or I. at:1
sorry, you rAd to t.ake an oath that: only a Christian could take.
A.~ Mr. Rothschild was, his family are well known adherents of the
Jewish faith. ~~ he was elected from a constituency, ! believe,
in the City of London bue somewhee in England, it: does net matt:er
where, elected and he refused to take t..i.e oat.h and there were '=.hur.deri:-.g
great deba:es ip the House of Ccomcns and he was refused his seat and
he ~as re-~1ected agaL~ and he was re!used his seat. ar.d he was re-ele~~ed
again and he was reiused his seat and finally t.he House of Cotr.r::ons sa'""
3763
Nov~er 29, 19i9 'tape !1o. 1495 I:S-2
MR. ROBERTS:
ligh~ anci allowed a member, I believe, co af:i-~, I mean as 'Ne
ca.n in :his House. I do not:. know i£ we have ever had any member
i..'1 this neuse af!i.=:n but:. in th.is ?rovi..-:.ce at any t:.ime an individual
is requi:eQ to eake an oath- and our oath inevitably says, So help
=e God - i£ any pe:son f~nds ~~at offensive on religious prLr.ciples
he may simpl;{ make soleir.n af£L~at.ion, a.."ld that. ::as e.x:ac:t.ly the
same effec't. in law as does an oath. A:·.d ! think lMrned gentle."!!en
in the House would concur t.r.at. on this point. at least: m: knowledge
of the law is relatively sound.
!here was the equally tamous case of Johnriilkes ~ho ~as el~ct.eci
three or four times arA finally the House of Commons gave wa: to him.
There a.=e cany pre-::eclents. You k."'l.ow u:1eil 1832 was it~ - you coulC.
not. be a member of ~~e House of cc~ons in England, you could not hold
public of!ice L~ Zngland unless you took an oath aga4~st the ?cma~
Cat.hclic Cht:.rch, the L"lf~ous Test P..c-t. so-called. So, you t-..ncw, :.he
principle goes back a long ...,..ay. Md ! find it. ve:'! o££ensive :.ta::.
Ca.binet can di.i:nlss a C".an and wit.1-tout qoir.g to a ccurt, withou:.
any or;:por-eur.ity on his p.!r': to defend himseLf or even to :;take ans...,..e:,
::.hat ::an or t.hat •.rcma."l can be denied t..,_e oppor<:unity :o go aga.1.n
to his eleceorate ar.d. to seek vinc!ica:.ion or othentise. I 'Chi:-,k
A..r".d I raise -che poi:'.t si::lply
to a.s% :.~e minister whethe= the gove:r.oene - well1 first of :ill 'Nhetter
he could make an'j sta-:.emer.e as to •,<l(hether :be gcver:-.mer.1:•s ;osit.ion
rA~ e~.ang~. !t. ...,.as a Tory ~ve~~e~t but i::. was a previous adoinise:a::.ion
led l::y .:-tr. !'.cores as the Premier ar.d, of course,!·tr. !o!oo:es, as is '""ell
k."'l.O"-TI, is no longer t..~e Premier. ~hether t.~e present a~inistxation
feels a lit-:le differenely - because ! e~~r~~ it is a point thae is
t."le.re, it is i.:1 t.be St:atutes. If tomo:rcw tl">.e mini.st.e: di.r.:'.isses, r
do not know, the ~yor of Corner Brook :o t.ake a name out. of :.he air
or the Hayer of St. Joh..~'s and t..,_en a by-elec't:icn i.s created to fill
the resulting va.::ancy, as ! underseand i-= 1neither of t.r.e occt.!pant.s of t..-.at
position ha?i.."lg been dismissed can su-~i::. hi:r.sel.f /":1erseif for
3764
November 29, l9i9 Tape No. !495 !3-3
MEL RCB~S.TS:
:e-e~ec~ion. I think thAt is terribly unfair. I think ~~e basic
principle of a democr.3.tic syste=n is you a.-.swer to your elec'Ccra::e.
Of course ! think the ::U.tti.ster -....ould cono::u= because t.he ot...""ler CAy,
ii I undersl:a.nd corr-;ct.ly, the :esponse -..:hich he :nade :.o 'the peti!.icn
presented by all those people in Cor.-~ arook and to t.he ;entle~an
for Hu:::U::er West Car. Baird), ;resented here i..'1 the House -
Ably presented..
!<:R. ROBERTS: 'tes,it -.:as ably presented. The minister • s
answer was twofol~.
t.:~ be ;.;ithin t.he powers which they had ,..,c., :tumber c-... -o, if ':.he CJ.t.:.zens
oZ Corner arook do not approve of the way the council are using ~""le
powers granted to them then t.he remedy lies in the ballot =ox.
3765
~ovembe~ 29, l9i9 Tape 1496 E.C - l
MR. ?DBE?.TS:
tr.inist.ar ought to have made. "r ~1.ir.k I indicat.eC c.'tat ir. ~e House
at t..'le time a.."ld I cer"t:ainly say so now. And I t..'lini(. equally -
~orell, it. is S:JO ?,;·I. - perhaps -
0\..'1 HON. XE:·SER
M?... :OC:BERTS:
{Inaudible) permit. you.
Yes, I was ;oing to say, perha?s
Mr. Olair.nan, we can agree to sort o:: - we only have one Late Show question
a.nd we ara going to knock o!f early t.onight. any..ray wit:.."l. r.o diminution
in wages. Arl'f"'ay, -:."le :ninister could have ·..-hate•te:: t.i.J:::e he :::i.gh::. neec.
:o answer t.'lis if nis Hor.our, ':.."le Speake~, could. wait. five o~ :.en :::u.r.u:.es
before taking t.."le Chai:. ! assu~e t..'lat. is agreed.
i..g::eed.
}L.'tl,, H, WINDSOR: :-1r. C.'lai::zan, ! ·..-ill just t.ake a :tct".em: ..
Basically, what t..~e r~n. gent.lern~"l said is ~,at t..'le electorat.e, obviously,
should have t..'le final pot;er, and I agree, a."'.ci t.'lis is ?recisely why
the C.ecision r mace as related t.o corr.er a:::coi<: last weei:., .;,.-,d t.."le ::.;a.:;:::-.
wny I maCe t."lat decision is that t..1e co~.:nc:il ;,a~ act.e:d ~nti:ely '""ithin
t.:.1.eir aut.":.ority. 7!'le cl.ec:isior.s t.."'at. :..'ley l"..ac! macie, alt..":.ough some pe::sons
:nigh:. ciisagree wi':.."' e.•1ern - sor.:e persons may ciisag::e~ wi~t C.acisicns :.'tat
govern~ent. ~es, Out. :..,at c!oes net. mean :..'lat. gcver~nt is ace~ng outs~C.~
of t.:."'ei:: aut:..i.ority as vested in c.~oet:t Oy :.."'e House of nsse:;-.blf. r.."\d in
t.:.'tiS p.u:t.icular case, t..,e council :1.aci act.eC.. as ! coul.:i se~ it, in
accorda."'ce wi:.'l t.."'ie au~~crity vest.eci in t.."'e::'l by t..'le House of Assa:':".:.:l:l
t.."'rough t.."l.e City of Corne: .arocit Act. 5o r !oW'l.C. r.o reason to ':.a.l<e an'!
act:i.on ot."le:: t."'ian I. did. HO\o'eve:, z would point out t_,at in a case
where t."'ey do act. outside t.."le a.u:..~rity vested in t.."'em by t.:te act.,
you knew, I th.ink government must have tb.e right. to take appropriate
action. And t.."'at is precisely ·..rhat. I said. Md it may well be t.."\a:.
t.."'e people of t."'e city of Corner Breoi:., to use ~"l example -and r hate
to c.se exar.ples - :..i.e ,?ecple of the cor:o::tu.-.ity, i.f o:.."'ey were allo•,.,ed to
run im:':lediately, ...-oulci e.'toose to elect t.."'em bac.lt, si;-,ply because cy
acting ou't.SiC.e ~":.~ aut:-.o::i t'J in t..".e act, t.'tey ::nay have done exac-:.ly
3766
tlove:r.be: 1979
:tR. :; • wr:rwso:t:
capiutl !..:::.ding for ?revision of one kind o:: service - !'U!'! nave c.se:i
t.'1a:. fu.."'l.:iing for provision of a.."'l.ot.'"\e: %inci of servic-.!. So I t:..'l!n%
it is entirely reasonabl-e. t..1.at. i..'l t.h.a~ par-::.icula.r case wnen gcve:nn:en-:.
finds ehat. t:..~e ac~on is serious enough - and as t.he han. gent.le~"'l.
?oin::.ed ou-:.1 anci quita corrac::.ly pointed ou:. - ~~at ~"'l.e decision is
rt is not some::.."li.."l.g that is cione on the spu.r of o:.."te ;nor.<.ent., :'l.ot. cone
r.y a tni.n.i.ster, i: is Cone by :..."J.e Cacinet as a wt-.cl.e. It is a ci.ecis.:.or.
of qoverrunen::. to dismiss a council, and it is a v~:::-1 serious C:eci.sion,
remerbering that many of these communities are vf::y small cccnu."'l..i.ties
anci if L"l individual i3 C:ismissed in a co~r.un.:.ey of l.OO or 20C peopl~,
ti"'at is a fairly serious :.."l.ing t.o hap::;en to hi:n wi::..'lin his societ·:',
w.tt..lti.n h.is co:::mur.i:y. So govern::~en: ~·oulci not Co it: ligh::.ly. A."'l.cl i!
the sieua:ion were serious enough to warr~"'l.e i:., then I thir~ it. .:.s
entirely reasonable -:.o expect t.."l.at. t.."'.ere should :,e a cooling of! ?erio--:.
of :,-_.o years before t.."lae pe:son could run again for eleceeC. of fico..
I move :.hat. t.."l.e Committee rise.
HR. ?.OB t:?.TS : And repon:. considerable
progress.
Un oot.ion t..~ae t.."l.e cor~ttee r~s~,
report. progress and ask leave to sit again,
MR. SP!JL~R: {S!.~) The hon. t.."l.e me~~er ior Hu=~er ~est.
!-!:. Spea.<er, t.he Cot:"cit.tee of t:'1e ifnole
have considered t.."le r:t.at:.te.::s eo t.."tem refer::-ed and have eireeted me to
report progress and ask leave to sit again.
On motion, re?ort: received and
adopted, Commiet.ee ordered to sit. again on -:.omorro1.1.
M?.. Si'EAY..E?.: It being 5:30 ? .;-!.., a mot..:. on to adjo!.!rn
A mat:.t.e.r for ::Eilia:.e raisaC. by t.."1e ;,o:-:..
The hen. t.."le :r.e~.Cer for aonavis t.a :::::u:t.'-1.
3767
November 29 1 1379 ':'ape 1496
I ~ availing of :his oppcr~~"~ty
.because since ~he ~at:":e::: ·..,.as first raised by me on ;oena.l.f of r::J
colleague 1 t..~e member for Terra :rova (!1:. !.us!\) and :rrt colleague,
the mar..ber !or Fogo (a:::. Tulk) in :.hat sa::o.e di.scussio;t . .,..hen it:
was brought Ui? 1 the Xinister of t.ar.C.s and. Foreses (!1.::. ~rgan)
indicated :."lat: t.':e probl.em also exises in Sonavista 5cut.": .• ':h~:::e
has been a consiCerabl.e a.:r.ou."''.t. of publicity on it since anC. it. is
a very se:oious problem. r would like :.o revie;.• for :r.er.'bers o: be
House: :.h.e dist:icts that ~a~-e r.ot. yet been hit !::;t ~~is probi~"-·
T:;.e problem, M.:-. Speaker, is :."lat. in many rural areas of ~;ewfo~'"l.c.!.a.n::i
a practice has cieveloped wilicn is a reasona:.le and p::act.ical ar::a::.ge~en:.
3768
~;ove.:::l.er :!S, l9-7S Ta:e ::c. 1_.97 S::J - 1
.s:-::..r.r::G: cf ..::. z:::.a.l.l .:or:~7:uni:.;:· wished to :::uilC.
U~= area ar,d ~aid, .. Hi.!.l :r·ou iina..'l::e .an::! leak after :.:~..:: bui.!.di::.;
ce.1 and .;e sai.::i, .. ';·i~to i.s avlllal:.le ~ buil:! a ~o:.tse .. ? AnJ. t..'"le
build.L~g s;.:.pplj' C.ealer sa:t·s, .. ~tell, look, !A.a.x Green is just:. abou:
fi:'l.ished, t.i.e r;;'lU:'Ch1 I t:;ll.nk I CA."l gee. him -:u ::'.li:~ a hct:.:;a, 10U k.~o·.l, i:.
a week or c~-o get sta.rt:acl or. i:.... Sc :::.e indivi..L!al '"'ishi::.g :.o >.ave
work and handle eve::r::.i::.; li!-;e and ··:hen i.e. is all fixed -.l? :: ...,ill
k..'"lc-..'n :.:l t.'"le individual for '•<he~ he -..as ;oin; too Zt.Ul,·;; :..i.e ::o·~e ~s
a co:pc:.er.c i..'1di·,.iC:ual. MC. e..."J.is p:ac:t.:..::e ·.:a~ ·..ri::.e;;;pread a..-:.C. :".OS:.
h~ard from places like St. •. l.nc..~ony as well, ch.is is t.."ie way r-.~us.:.r.:;
was Puilt.
e.:.ther :latior.al Revenue or Uner:-.p.!.oy;::en:. Ins:.;r.:~.nc.a, a:.d I a:: :.a:. s.._.re
•.;hich, either cf t.hosa: t".::::, anC. the:• nave r.acl t:',..'Q rcprese::.:at.!:tes
on Pei::.g int-erviewee. a.r.d t:1.ay said ':."l..l.t a!":.er allowing e...1.is pract..ic.=.
to ;o on for ~~ee yea:s, in so=e c.1.ses =ore, ~~ey ciecideci :..1.ere
was sc~e e.ec~~icali:y. Now,in one of the cases, as of June of t.~is
year, they have decided ':.•at ':.1.e pract~ce is acceptable. 7he
ca::pez1.e.er was ".ai:.::. an hou=l:r r3.te. ·,;;1at;. ':,;,ey have said i: is now acce::;t.a!:le.
A:.d I could :::::t believe ::..:. the othe:::- n.:.ght •·h-=n hea:C o:-. :.elevls io:-.
it. nay have l:een ~ia:.iona.l ?.e•;e:~~e 1 : ::oul:::. not:. Celi::!•te :.t, :...1a:. ::e
.3769
:tove::-.ber 29, 1979 '!'at:e :!o. 1497 S:J - ~
::..!:!.. r... S'!'!?.L!:-iG;
accep'tal:.le is t:.:."l.J.<: ::..1.e bui!:.lir.; s:.:?ply dealer .... as ;oL"1.; :o ::1.ai-;e
a profit ~"1.d tr~: now :ade it accep~le. Cnbelievahle ::..~at here
was a ;rac:.!c:a where a ;;;uildin; sup;lt dea...l.e: said, "!.oak, : a.:t
prepared to =ake cy pr~fi:. on ::..~e b~~~ing 5upplies, I am going
:.o ::.ire a carpenter a,r..;;;. let :U.-:~ go ;.'Qr;,;;. on your :touse and ! will
~ i: at cost". ArA ~~e carpenter paid his share of ~1.e une:.ploymen:.
insurance ar.d th~ building 9u?ply dealer paid ~1.e ~=pluyer'~ share
It !.s unl::e.lievahle, :1.r. ;;ipea~l!r,
~>-ta:. ~"l.is :1as happened in :lewfou:'!.dlancL ;.;;d t..~a t. is ·;~hy ! as;~e:;! >:.he
:.i."l..ist~ on occoter 13th if he -...rc".llci int:.e:::ec!.e ..... ::., th :tis colleague
t.h.e federal rn.inist.er because r unde:s:.a~d :..":is goverr.:r..::m: was elec:.ej -
it was a=u~ing a few oL~utes ago, calking abou~ ~\e ~asis uncier
<:.'-'!.ey could work very "..'ell wi":.b. ':.!".e gcve.r::"':.en: ir. Ottawa. Uo~o.~, or.
oc:.ober l9t.'1. I. ... rote me tacleral :ni..-:ister a::C. w=ot:e :•.r. Oir.r.
a.'"l.ci asked hin eo int.ere::eC.e Ceca:.u>e :..~.ere is r:.o doubt., ! 3.Cc~::":.
it J.t face value, ':..'-1a:. t..."te ::.~is~er .ar.C. his infl:.:encc cer>:.air:..!.:r :.as
a lo:. ~ore in!luence on ~'-'I.e feder:~.l gove~:.:ent then I .... cul: or
anybociy on t..'-'!.is side.
Only or:.e minut.e left, cJ.n ! ccn':.~~ue
by leave?
SOME HC:J. ~BERS: Agreed.
And What has since developed is :.~a':.
~..,e federal ~inister has not even replied to his telegr~~. And t."tis
is j'.lst. not acce,;a:able, it. concerns :....,is ·;~hole House of Assembl:r,
our whol-= wa.7 of li!e here in ::ewfoundland ~"tat a !ede.:al - and ! ..1.r..
3770
::ove::tb=:: 29, 1979 Tat:e .;o. 10:97 5;) - 3
:t..1.. r... S':''!:?..L.::.::.:;:
! know n.;.,... of seven or eight people .,..ho are involved and they
are people i.o;.volved just. before C!u-is~s, They ii.ci :oa't l.:.? .s.r. ar:>:al.
indivL1uals involv'!d
{ !r..J.c.:!iblel
377:1
~ovembe: 29, 197? Tape !Io. 1.499 GH-l
HR. ST!.R:..!::G: and !.:. •.;as JUSt: c.ancelled.. The fade:al
gove::nment. just. got. in touch ·..;i.th t.he:n, ca.'1.ceL!.ed t:h!! a:;;peal.
Any reason why -
M..l'{. ST!P.LING: ~~o reason - the arrogance of :.he
federal government. t.o just say t:o these poor carpente::s who we::e getting
ready - they do not know what: - I mean, for carpent.ers - and t:he me~er
for Sonavista Sout.h (Mr. Morgan), I am sure, has got. the sa:ne kind of
people. They have never been in court. They h.!!.•.re !'teve::: been in :.::ouble.
':':ley have :tever done anyt .. b.ing wrong, and it these people, fi::st of all
eo get an of!i::ial let..::er from government saying, "Y:~u owe thi3 a.:r.ou."'l.t:. of
money a."ld you have :.o pay it: back. Send us a cheque or w~ will t.~~e it:
out. of the Unemployment !:1.sura..."lce". They have been sit::t.ing, wait.::.nq
foe this appeal - no ~ney t.o do ~~e appeal - they have been ~aiting :or
this appeal.
:L':t. S?E:AKZR: (Sl.:r.ns) Order, please! The hon. =eobe::'s
ti:n'd has ex;>ired. I am not sure if t...l-:ere was leave -
ay leave"?
!·1R. :-!ORG; .. N: Gi7e it to hi= by leave. Yes. 3v leavP
1 let;~ carry en. It is a stame,
:;o t<c.
or::er, ;"leas'3: '1' ~r/:rst:a. ... C leavE. l'.:ls r-ot:
bee:-. gra."lteC.
The hen. ~inist:er of Latour and
MR. DH<!I: :-tr. S:;:eat..e:::, '""hen the i".on. :r.e=ber
wrote ~e a letter signed on behalf of hi~~el: and the hon. me~er :cr
Ter::a Nova (~~. Lush) ~.,d ~~e hon. member !or fogo (:-tr. Tulk), a~ the
time ~~ere was some movement. witn respect to t.he We?ar~ent of Labour
and Manpower in ~~at. we were ~ving from one buildi:tg to anothe::,
from several di!:erent: locat.ions in ~,e city to ~~e Eeothuck 3~ilding,
and as a result of t.~at t:he::e was some d,:;lay ::.n ~y of!ice · .. ;it.h resp~-:::t.
t:o acti:1g on behalf of e.:;e h.o:1. :tte!'l'..be:: a.'1.d other han. =.e~.l:e!'s w:.o
had and have since :totif!.ed :ne a.:::.out :.he si:.uat.!.on de::;=):ibed ve~:,_·
adequately by c.."le hen. me:-::.ber fo:: Eona·;i3t.3. ~<c::-:.::.. (:·tr • .S::.i.r!.inql. Tt'".·-"
3772
~Tovem.ber 29, 1979 Tape No. 1498 GH-2
!1R. OINN:
gover:-.mene
fact of ~~e ~at~er is ~~at the federal
and ~~e hen. ~mber made the inference that all han. members
on ~~is side got elected because ~ey could co-operat.e and co-ordinate
and get things done wi~~ ~e federal government. Of cou=se, I beli~ve
that but ! do not think that I gee 4,600 votes in Pleasantville strictly
on the basis of the face that. ! could -
AN h"'H. :1£:1B£R:
not ~e.t:!n the -
A.N HC~ • MZ.'1E ER :
!1..tf.. OWN:
4,540.
4,540, I have been corrected. F.e has
Seen ehe advance polls.
- the advance polls. So, ! :io not
think that ! actually got elected on ~~e basis of the =o-oper~tion ~~at
~~is government could ~ave wi~~ the federal goverr.ment, al~~ough that
may have 1'-.ad an impact. Certainly since '"'e C.'A gee elec1:eC., there has
beer. ::;:uite a );it of =onsul::ation, consultacion, I might add, ··•ith
respect to ~y depart~ene on just about ever: aspec~ of ~~e arrange~enes
to be made ··;ith the :eda::-al go•?ernment: and. t!1e provincial qovernrne!"'.': to
loo::. at t.1.e overall employment. and. •..:.nernployment. ins:Jrance programnes.
Xr. 3reaker. : have one small litt:le book there that covers ten basic
areas c!'!at o~.-:: are co-ordinat.ing on with t.1-..e federal -;ove:-r ... -r.ent. 'NJ.th
respec~ ~o ~~e specific problems, there are things ~~at ~ave to be done.
that :te•?enue '23...."'lada :...:; operating under nO\o' t.hat. penalize the gentle.ma..,
C.own in aona·.:ista :1or~~. T:.ey did not bring i:> those regulations.
They were broughe in ?reviously, ~.,d one would thi~J; ehae i: ~~ey were
br~ught in previously, ehey were brought in by somebody else, some ocher
adminiseratior... One does not. ha•?e to think "Jer:· long as to •.rho t:ro•..tght
in ~1.ose regulaeions and who brought: in ~~e requla:ions and ~hat
regulations need to be ::hanged. Now, t.here are manr changes cont.e:r.plat.ed
gr.:aa<: detail - ! believ9 t:.:tere was a st.ud:: done ir. 19i4. ;.iany o: che
rec:om:nendat.io~.s a= chat stud.:,:, whic!'l. would have been ;:et:.:imen~al co
~e·..,:oundlancl, have si.nce, :1a7 and June, been '::hrcwn out by t1:e :ederal
;over~ent:. and have been t:hrc"'"'n out because of consultat.ion. Now, there
are many o~~er t~ings ~at. are st.ill qoing to ~e discussed and will =e
3773
November 29, 1979 Tape No. l498 GH-3
MR. O!NN: discussed, and that is ongoing.
On December lOth, llch and 12~~ ~he Peputy Minis~~r of Labour ~~d
Manpower, my Deputy Minister, will be in Ottawa consulting. !n
Janua_~, I believe, the federal ML~ister of Finance, ~~e federal Minister
of Welfare -
AN HON. MEMBER: Social Sa~Jices.
MR. OINN: - not Social Se:-.ri::es - will be down
here consulting
3774
November 29, 1979 Tape No. 1499 IB-1
!·!R. OI!1N:
with ehis government: ar.d going through t:he various aspect:.s of
unemployment insurance and making sure tJ1a.e this Province Oenefits
when there are changes. so, Mr. Speake:, I would not go along
with the hen. ~ember's contention that the members on this side
got elected solely on the basis that we could co-operate and
co-ordinate and consult wi t:h the federal goverr.ment. That is true.
The people obviously recognized tbAt ~ ~e their decisicn in
~AY· With respect to this specific problem I wrote, I sent a teleg=am
to the federal ::tL"liSter, I h4ve an acY-"l-Owledgement of t."le receipt
of that telegram. He obviously cannot change regulations, and that:
is what the people 1n Revenue Canada are operating on, overnight., Out
he is looking int:o it. I would think tr~t the possibility exists
that the appeals tha e were cancelled were on the basis of represent.:tt.icns
made on Oehal.f of the ::onse.ituent.s cf the hon. mem.Zer a.r.C the hen.
member !or Fogo (!1r. Tul.i<;), the hen. me!:ber for 3anavista Nor-:h
(Hr. Stirling) and so on and they are ccnsiderir.g them very care!ull:;
before they go to an appeal prcceC.ure where they have regulations that
would 1if lived to by the let~er,require the people to pay back up
t.o Sl2,000 in one L"ls~nce_as the han. me:ber pointed out. So they
are going through that.. r would hope that we ·~uld get a favourable
reply and am fairly confident th.a.t. we ',.;ill get a favourable reply. A.."ld
when we do ! will certainly, Mr. 5pea~er, notify the hon. m~~ers
opposite either t.hrough the House of Assembly or th:ough personal
contact with them.
SC."!:E HON. ME.."'.BE:RS : Oh, oh!
On motion ~~e House at its rising
' stands adjourned until tomorrow, Friday, at 10:00 A.H.
3775
