90- A Mind Of Your Own- Tackling Mental Illness and Fixing ...Kettle and Fire solves that problem...

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Episode90:AMindOfYourOwn:TacklingMentalIllnessandFixingHormoneswithDr.KellyBrogan


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Child:WelcometomyMommy’spodcast.

Katie:Doyoulovethetasteandthebenefitsofbonebrothbutdon’tlovehowtimeconsumingitistomake?Withthetimeyouspendsourcingthebestingredientsandthensimmeringitforhoursonendonthestove.KettleandFiresolvesthatproblemwiththeirbonebroth.Sotheyuseonlybonesfrom100%grass-fedpastureraisedcattlethatarenevergivenhormonesandantibiotics.It’salsouniquebecausetheyfocusonbonesthatareespeciallyhighincollagen,whichisoneofthehealthiestthingsyoucanputinyourbody.Anothergreatthingaboutthemisthattheyusereallyeco-friendlyminimalpackagingandtheirbonebothisnon-perishable.Sounlikemanybonebrothsonthemarket,itshipswithouttheneedforrefrigeration,whichisalsomuchmoreeco-friendly.Itisavailableinmanystores,sodefinitelycheckyourlocalarea.Butifit’snot,likeitisn’tforme,youcanorderitonlineandhaveitshippedtoyourdoor,whichiswhatIdo.Sotocheckitoutandtofindoutmoreaboutwhytheirbonebrothissowonderful,gotokettleandfire.com/wellnessmama.

ThisepisodeissponsoredbyPlantTherapy.TherearesomanyoptionsouttherewhenitcomestoessentialoilsandI’veusedalotofthemovertheyears.NowImostoftenturntoPlantTherapybecausetheyhavealargeassortmentoforganicoilsandawholelotofkid-safeblendsandtheyalsohavereallygoodprices.Thecoolthingistheiroilshavenoadditivesorsyntheticingredientslikealotofoilsdo.Andtheypublishtheirtestingresultsforalloftheiroilssoyoucanverifythequality.I’vetalkedalotaboutthesafeuseofessentialoilsandtheirkid-safeblendsareformulatedbyRobertTisserand,whoislargelyconsideredoneoftheforemostexpertsinessentialoilsafety,soIfeelIcantrusthim.Ifyouwanttocheckthemout,especiallyrightnowthey’rerunningsomebigsalesthatarechangingdaily.Gotowellnessmama.com/go/oilstogetallthecurrentdiscounts.

Katie:Hi,andwelcometoTheHealthyMomsPodcast.I'mKatie,fromWellnessmama.com.AndI'mheretodaywithaguestwhowasrequestedmanymanytimes.Dr.KellyBroganisaManhattan-basedholisticwomen'shealthpsychiatrist.She'stheauthoroftheBestsellingbook,"AMindofYourOwn,"andshehaspsychiatrictrainingfromNYUMedicalCenter,andshehasaspecialtyinthisarea,especiallywithwomen.Sheisboardcertifiedinpsychiatry,psychosomaticmedicine,andintegrativeholisticmedicine,andshereallyfocusesonfindingtherootcauseofthesymptomsandsyndromesandfixingtheproblem.Soshe'sbeenfeaturedonprettymucheverymediathatIcanthinkof.She'sveryverywellreadandwellspokenandIknowthatshe'sgonnahaveanswersforalotofyoutoday.So,Dr.Broganwelcome,thanksforbeinghere.Kelly:It'sreallyanhonortobehereandtoclosethisloop.I'mahugefan,totalpleasuretobehere.Katie:Ithinkit'sgonnabeagreatconversation.AndIfeellikeitwillbefunformetodelveinto.I'veneverstruggledpersonallywithanykindoflikementalhealthissue,butIhaveacoupleclosefriendswhohave.AndIfeellikeespeciallyforwomen,it'satabootopic.It'sfunnytomelikethecontrast,I'llgetrandompeopleinthegrocerystorewhoaskmeifI'mdonehavingkidsorlikewhyIliketohavesexsomuch,andthat'sapparentlynotoffthetable.Butwhenitcomestomentalhealthorforwomenalsomiscarriage,Ifeellike


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there'stheseareasthatwefeelwecan'ttalkaboutandthatprobablythere'salotofdeeppainforalotofpeopleanditwouldhelptotalkthrough.AndIknowthatyouhavenoproblembroachingthesetopics,andIwanttodelveintoday.Sotostarttodaycanwehearalittleaboutyourbackground,andhowyougotintothisareainthefirstplace.Kelly:Yeah,soIcomefromyouknow,averyconventionalupbringing.Soyouknow,sortofalotofwhatIhavecomeontolaterinmylifeisveryverynewtome.Ididn'tgrowupinaveryconsciouswellness-orientedfamily.Youknow,certainlywasn'traisedbyBohemians.Andanyway,mymomisfromItalyandsoIwasraisedthewayanychildofanimmigrantis,whereyouknow,youbecomeadoctororalawyer.Youmakealotofmoney,andyoufollowtherules.Youknow,thatwassortoftheedict.AndsoIverymuchbelievedinyouknow,conventionalmedicine.IwasaneurosciencemajorincollegeatMIT,andstrangely...actuallyit'snotsostrange,butMIThasabigissuewithsuicide.AndIvolunteeredonasuicidehotlinewhileIwasincollege.Idon'tknowwhatattractedmeyouknow,todothatinmysparetimebutIdid,andIwasleftwiththeimpressionyouknow,sortofdovetailingwithmymajorthatwehadcrackedthecodeofhumanbehavior,right?Sowehavethescience,wehavetheresources,andwejustneedtogetpeopletotreatment.Weneedmoreandmoreaccessibilityaroundmedication-basedtreatments.AndsoIliterallywenttomedicalschooltolearnhowtoprescribepsychiatricmedication.AndI'vealwaysbeenafeministyouknow,fromwhenIwaslikeakid.Maybeeveninthewomb,Idon'tknow.ButIorientedmyselfaroundwhatInowseeasamoresortofmasculinizedfemininitywhereIreallyfeltverystronglythatwomenneededtoplayinthesamegameasmenandwin.AndsoIwasyouknow,verymuchsortofpro-electiveC-sections,andpro-Gardasilvaccineyouknow,forHPV,andpro-longtermbirthcontrolforasmanyyearsasyouneededit.AndI,ofcourse,youknow,Idon'tknow,Ifoundthatitwasprobablyanentitlementforwomentotakepsychiatricmedicationsatanytimeinanyamountandthroughouttheirpregnanciesandbreastfeeding.Sobelieveitornot,Iwasoneofthefirst300psychiatristsintheworldtospecializeinmedicatingpregnantandbreastfeedingwomen.Nowwehaveoneinfourwomenofreproductiveageonpsychotropicmedication,probablymanypeoplelistening.Anditmakessensethatpeoplehavemadethatchoicebecauseasyoumentioned,youknow,wehavebeenledtobelievethatstruggle,andgrief,andshiftsandchangesinbehaviorthatyouknow,intensefatigueandinattention.Thatallofthesethingsarebad,right?Andthattheyareevidenceofdysfunction.Andwecantalkabouthowsortofthedisease-basedmodelofmedicineisevolvingandchanging.ButsufficeittosaythatIcamefromthatmentality.Verymuchabelieverinconventionalmedicine.AnditwasthroughmyownexperiencewithadiagnosisofHashimoto's,anautoimmunethyroidconditionaftermyfirstpregnancy.Havingneverhadahealthproblem,everbeforeinmylife,despitetotallytrashingmybody.Literally,eatingMcDonald'sandcandyeverysingleday.ThatIoptedforanaturopathicsolutionbecauseIknewwhatconventionalmedicinehadtooffer.IknewthatIwouldbeonSynthroidfortherestofmylife,feelinglargelylikecrap.AndIwantedout.SoI,youknow,wentthenaturopathicroute,Iputmyconditionintofullremissiononpaper,anditsortof,Idon'tknow,itwasthebeginningofanawakeningformewhereIappliedallofmysciencesortoforientedinterests:I'vealwaysbeenasciencenut.I'vebeenspendinghourseverySaturdayofmylifeonPubMedfor14years.AndsoIjustswitcheddirectionsandIsaid,"Okay,thisiswhatIwastaughtinmytraining.Youknow,veryexpensiveIvyLeaguetraining.AndI'mgoingtonowlookformyself."Andyouknow,seewhatitwasthatIwasn'tspoon-fed.


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AndwhatIlearnedwasreallyquiteshocking,actuallyenraging,inalotofthephasesofmyexploratoryresearch.Anditdrovemetoaperspectiveonpharmaceuticalmedicinethatis,ofcourse,consideredquiteradicalatthispointbutyouknow,manamIgladthathappened,becausetheoutcomesthatIhaveinmypracticetoday,Iliterallycan'tpublishthemfastenough.It'syouknow,atypeof...Idon'tknowaperspectiveonhealthandhealingthatwe'renevertoldaboutyouknow,intermsofwhat'spossible.AndIamveryhonoredyouknow,tosortofwitnessthiseverysingledayinmyofficeandnow,youknow,bringitoutintotheworldonagreaterscale.Sothat'sprettymuch...whatI'mheretotalkaboutisyouknow,sortof"Whatyoumaynotknowispossiblearoundtheresolutionofchronicillness."Katie:IlovethatandIlovethatthere'ssomeoneelsewhospendstheirweekendsonPubMed.YouobviouslyhavethetrainingtoprobablybetterinterpretthestudiesbutIfindthemsuperfascinating.ButI'mstillstuckonwhatyousaidthatoneinfourwomenismedicated.AndIdidnotactuallyknowthatnumberuntilreadingyourinformationandIwasshocked.Thattomeissostaggering.IfitwasanythingelseIfeellikewe'dbetalkingaboutanepidemic.Andthereshouldbemuchmoreawarenessandknowledgearoundthis.Sowhatdoyouthinkaresomeofthefactorsthatarecausingthisandwhere'sthegapinthetraditionalapproach?Whyareweseeingsuchhighlevelsandisitfixinganyone?Kelly:It'saperfectquestion.andinfact,youknow,apartofthesortofstorythatIdidn'tmentionanswersthatquestion.Whichisthatin2010,Iwasgivenabook.Sothiswasyouknow,rightafterIhadmyHashimoto'shealingexperiencethatofcourse,youknow,conventionalmedicinewouldsayisnotevenpossible.AndIwasgiventhisbookcalled"AnatomyofanEpidemic"byinvestigativejournalistRobertWhitaker.AndIreadthebook,andIrememberliterallycryingonthesubway.BecauseIfinishedthebookandmyentireworldcrumbledinfrontofmyeyes.Likeliterally,everythingIhadeverlearnedaboutmyownspecialty...Iwasembarkingyouknow,intoprivatepracticeonmyown,Ihadtothrowout.Andbecauseofthatbook,andI'lltellyouwhatitsassertionyouknow,is,IputdownmyprescriptionpadandIneverstartedapatientonmedicationagain.Andthatwasyouknow,Ihadtothrowawaymyentiretraining.Soobviously,Ihadtobereadytodothat.AndIwasreadytodothatbecauseIhadalreadycomeontoanotherpath,right?Butmanymanyprescribersandmyownfriendshavereadthatbookanditdidn'tchangeanythingforthem.Sowhatthatbooksaysisthroughtheanalysisofnon-industry-fundedliterature.Somedicalstudiesthatthepharmaceuticalindustrydidnotthemselvespayfor,okay?Heseekstoansweryouknow,onequestion.Whichis,ifwehavemoreandmoreincidenceofchronicalmentalillness,right?SodepressionistheleadingcauseofdisabilityaccordingtotheWHOintheworld.Soit'sonlybecomingmoreandmoreprevalent.Howisitthatthatincidenceisescalatingwhenwehavemoreandmoreaccesstotreatment,right?Shouldn'ttherebemoretreatment?Oneinfourwomenbeingtreated.Shouldn'ttherebemoretreatmentandlessdisability?Isn'tthatthepointoftreatment?Andwhatheargues,notonlyfordepressionbutforADHD,andschizophrenia,andmooddisordersgenerally,likebipolardisorder.Whathearguesisactuallythattheverytreatmentitselfisperpetuatingchronicillnesswhereinitsnaturalhistoryinthepast,youknow,wecanstudyfromthe1930sand1940sforexample,thismighthavebeenaoneepisodeexperiencethatevenspontaneouslyresolved.Nowwearegeneratingepidemicsofchronicmentalillnessandassociateddisabilitythroughthemedicationyouknow,choicesthatwearemaking.Thatsoprovocativeyouknow,it'slikethemostcontroversialconclusionyoucouldcometobecauseitrequireslettinggoofthisnotionthatmedicationsaresafeandeffectiveyouknow,whenitcomestopsychiatry.Andofcourse,I'veextrapolatedthisconversationintootherdisciplinesofMedicinelookingatyouknow,antibioticsetc.Butit'sprovocative.Butit'shardtoarguewithwhatthesciencestatesyouknow,which


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isprettyclear.Andyouknow,Ibelieveininformedconsent,Ibelievethatyouknow,everyoneshouldbefreetomaketheirowndecisionsaroundthemedicinethatmakessensetothem,buttheycanonlymakethosedecisionswhentheyhaveafullpictureoftheavailableinformation.Andit'sverycleartomethatIhadn'tbeenprovidingthattothepatientsIhadtreatedupuntilthatpoint.Katie:Gotyou.Sotakeusthroughthis.IhavenoexperienceofthissoI'mgenuinelycurious.Ifsomeonepresentswiththesesymptomsandgoesto,forinstance,justaconventionaldoctor,whatwouldkindofbetheprocessthatawomanwillbetakenthrough?Andwhatwouldshebemostlikelytobeprescribed?Kelly:Sohere'stheprocess.It'sdisarminglyabrupt.Soactually,mostpsychotropicmedicationsareprescribedbyprimarycaredoctorsorinternists.Morethan60%ofthem.Soyoumightshowuptoyourprimarycaredoctorandlet'ssay,somethingisjustoff,right?You'retired,youknow,youcan'tconcentrate,you'refeelinglikesuperunmotivatedandirritable.Maybeyou'rehavingsleepissues,youknow,maybeyou'vegained15poundsthenyou'reprettyconstipated.you'venoticedyou'realsolosingabunchofhair.Generally,you'rejustaresortofendofyourrope.Andyougettotheoffice,andyou'resorelievedtohavesomebodypayattentiontothecomplexissuesyou'restrugglingwithfor10minutes,thatyoustartcryingintheoffice.TheOckham'sRazorhere,thesimplestsolutionthatthisdoctorcanofferyou...becausedoctorsbyandlargearenotbadpeople,theywanttohelp.Buttheyhaveaverysmalltoolkit.Infact,it'sbasicallylikeaone-toolkit,right?Sotheyprettymuchcanonlyofferaprescription.Andyouwillgetthatprescriptionwhetherit'sfromaninternistorapsychiatrist,sometimesaftera10-minuteconversation.Soit'simportanttorememberthatinpsychiatryandpsychiatricdiagnosiswedon'thavebloodtests,wedon'thaveMRIs,wedon'thaveyouknow,anysortofEEGsorspecialscans.There'snoobjectivediagnosis.Soit'sreallyaconversation.Itcouldbeassimpleaslikeaquiz.Somethinglikeyouwouldfindin"CosmoMagazine"orsomething.That'sliterallyhowadiagnosisisrenderedinthisfield,andit'stotallysubjective.Andthishasbeenborneoutyouknow,inresearchfrommanydecadesagowheretheysentactorsandactingcrazyinanemergencyroom,andtheyallleftwithprescriptionsorwereinstitutionalized.Sothisissortofwhatwe'redealingwithandwe'recallingit"Science."Andunfortunately,justbecauseit'sallthatwehaveavailabledoesn'tmeanthatit'sreallywhat'sinthebestinterestofpeoplewho'sstrugglesareveryreal.Youknow,we'resickinwaysthatareverycomplextoday,becausewearedealingwithacriticalburdenofyouknow,toxicandexposure,specialkindofchronicstress.We'refeelingdivorcedfromourcommunities,fromourfamilies,evenfromourownsouls,youknow.Andsowe'restruggling.Andwhenadoctorhas10minutesandnospecifictoolsortrainingtoreallydigdeepintothepersonalexperienceofyourjourney,thenitmakesalotofsensethattheywouldjusttrytotaketheedgeoffandofferyousomethingthatseemslikeareasonablesolution.Katie:Thatmakessense.Sounderstandingwhatyouknownow,ifsomeonecametoyou,howwouldtheapproachdiffer?Becauselisteningtothesymptomsyoujustnamed,inmyhead,atleast,I'mlike,"Well,tome,likewhyaren'ttheycheckingtheirthyroid?ThosearesomeofthefewthingsIhad.AndIfeellikethatwhenI,youknow,don'tgetenoughOmega3sanddon'tgetenoughsleep.Likewhyaren'ttheyaddressingthis?"Sowhat'syourunderstandingofthatnow?Howdoesthatdiffer?Kelly:Sohere'swherewhenyousaidthatyoudon'thavethetrainingtointerpretscientificliterature,that'sabsolutelyfalse.YouknowinfinitelymoreasawellnessexpertthanIwouldsay,99.9%oftrainedphysiciansoutthere.Andpartofthisphenomenonisthatittakesaccordingtoyouknow,statisticalresearch,17years


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forwhatisintheprimarymedicalliteraturetotrickledownintoagoldstandardclinicalpractice.Sothat,youknow,sortofbrain-gapssotospeak...isn'tit?Andthat'sagenerationyouknow,andthat'sanextraordinarilylongperiodoftime.Sowhathappensisthatyouknow,yourlovely,wonderful,well-intentioneddoctorispracticingantiquatedmedicine.Andoneofthemanywaysinwhichconventionalmedicineisbehindthetimesisinunderstandingthecomplexityoftheimmunesystemanditsseatinthegut,right?Andhowtheserelatedsymptomsyouknow,likewhatwe'retalkingaboutHashimoto'sorotherkindsofautoimmuneconditionsthat,ofcourse,havegreaterprevalenceinwomen,howtheycanmanifestpsychiatrically,right?Soifyoudon'tknowwhattolookfor,andthat'swhyIdobelieveinyouknow,abasicscreeningifyouhavecomplexsymptoms,becauseyouknowhowtolookforyouknow,theevidenceofHashimoto'inlabwork.Butactually,conventionaldoctorsarenotonlynottrainedinhowtolookforantibodiesroutinely,howtolookforfreethyroidhormonesormaybeevenaReverseT3.They'renottrainedtolookatthat,they'retrainedtointerpretonlythereferencerange.Butthentheyarealsoinnowayequippedtomakeanysortofmeaningfulrecommendationsaroundautoimmuneconditions.Autoimmuneconditionsweren'tevenreallyapartofmymedicaltrainingandIamnotthatold.Sothisiswherelifestyle-basedillnessesareoutpacingconventionalmedicinesabilitytoevensortofmeetthedemanddiagnostically,letalone,therapeutically.SowhenImeetwithapatient,Iamveryinterestedinwhataresomeofthepotentialtotallyreversiblephysiologicimbalancesthatcouldleadyoutoapsychiatricprescription.Ifindthattherearefourorfiveverycommonones.Andforsomepatients,it'simportanttoidentifywhatthoseare.Sometimesyoucanjustyouknow,takeonahealingprotocolandlike"whocares"becausewhenyou'refeelingbetteryou'refeelingbetter.Andthat'sgonnaputyouinatremendouspositiontocomeoffofmedicationifyouhappentobeonitortoavoiditifyou'dliketoregardlessofwhatwasdrivingit.ButIwouldsaythatsomeofthemost...thesearenotgonnasurpriseyou.Someofthemostcommonimbalancesinclude:probablynumberoneisdysglycemiaorbloodsugarimbalance,right?SoI'vehadpatientswhocometomyofficewithanythingfromsixpanicattacksaday,todiagnosesofyouknow,complexinsomnia,tochronicfatigue.Andallthattheyhadwasanaturalphysiologicresponsetoyouknow,toomuchsugar.Processedsugarconsumption.Anditwasdrivingaseeminglypsychiatricconstellationofsymptoms.Andasyouwellknow,thisisreversiblesometimeswithinyouknow,weeks.Soyouknow,bloodsugaramountsisone.Ithinkit'sprobablynocoincidencethatIwasdiagnosedwithHashimoto'smyself,becauseithelpedmetoplumbtheliteraturethatisveryrobustsuggestingthateverythingfrompostpartumpsychosis,toyouknow,psychoticdepression,tosuicidality,tobipolardisorder,hassignificantcorrelationatworst,andcausationatyouknow,sortofmostmeaningfularoundthesortofcomplexityofthyroidfunctionandit'sinterfacewiththeimmunesystem.Soifyouknowthatlittlefact,thenyou'regoingto,ofcourse,asyousuggested,firstlookforevidenceofantibodies.Weactuallyknowfromtheliteraturethatwhenthereareantibodies,evenifthehormoneslooktotallycool,thataloneisenoughtogeneratewhatwemightcallpsychiatricsymptoms.Soitmatters,right?Andwhatyoudoaboutitofcourse,matters,intermsoflifestyle-basedhealing.Sothere'sthatone.Anotheroneisgrowingliteraturethatsuggeststhatantigenicfoodslikewheatanddairymaybespecificallyproblematiconabrain-basedlevelforasubpopulation.AndI,personally,youknow,dofoodallergytestingoranythingalongthoselinesbecauseIthinkitcanbealoteasier,andmoredirect,andempoweringfrankly,tojustsortofengageinastructuredeliminationandobserveforyourselfyouknow,whatyounotice.Andthisisnotlikeyouknow,sortoffortheworriedwell.Imean,Ihaveevenonmyblogpublishedcases,particularly


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onerecentonefrom"TheNewEnglandJournal."It'sa37-year-oldwomanwhowassopsychoticthatherfamilytookoutarestrainingorderonher.Shewasrenderedhomeless.Andallthatshehadwasceliacdisease.Oncetheyfinally,aftermedicatingherforayear,oncetheyfinallydiagnosedheronintestinalbiopsywithceliacdisease,theyputheronastrictgluten-freedietforthreemonthsandshewasliketotallybacktohernormalself.Sothisisnotaminorcontributor.Imean,thiscanmasqueradeassomeprettysevereillness.AndIwouldsayyouknow,thelastcategorytoreallyconsiderwaswheremostofmylearningcamefrominmyownindependentresearchwhichwasaroundmedicationsideeffects.Soyouknow,whenitcomestomedications,unfortunately,there'ssortofnofreelunchiswhatI'velearned.Andyouknow,wheretheremightbeadesirableeffectofamedication.Whetherit'sapainkilleroranacidblockeroryouknow,abirthcontrolpill,thenatureofthesideeffectsthatmanifestforyoupersonallyisabitofaRussianroulette.Youknow,weknowit'scommonandweknowit'srare,butsomethingthat'srareifithappenstoyou,wedon'tcarethatitwasrare,right?Andsotounderstandthatmanymanyroutinemedicationsactuallyhavethepotentialtohaveverysignificantpsychiatricsideeffects,whetherthat'scognitivechanges,behavioralchanges,moodchanges,isimportantbecauseotherwise,youcouldenduptakinganothermedication.Likeifyou'reonbirthcontrolandyou'rehavingpsychiatricsideeffects,youmightenduponanantidepressant,eventhoughtherootcauseofyourissuewasthebirthcontrol,whichyoumaybetakingbecauseofhormonalimbalance,andtherootcauseofthatissomethingresolvablethroughlifestylechanges.Soit'sjustimportanttohavethisawarenessifyouarefindingyourselfgettingputintoacategoryofyouknow,sortofpsychiatriclabelingorconsideringthatyoumighthaveamentalillness.BecausethepotentialfortotalandcompletereversalIbelieveisyouknow,sortof"theskyisthelimit."Idon'tthinkthatthere'sapersononearthwhocan'thealwhatismanifestingasmentalillnesssymptomsiftheybelieveit'spossible,andtheyhavethewherewithaltocommittolifestylechange.That'stheconclusionI'vecometo.Katie:YeahIdefinitelywannadelveintothat.AndIthinkthat'ssoimportantwhatyoujustsaid."Itdoesn'tmatterifit'srareifhappenstoyou"becausethatreallyhitmewith...Ihadplacentapreviawithmythirdchild,andIalwayslikeglazedoverthosesectionsinthebookandIneverreadanythingaboutC-sectionsbecauseI'mlike,"Well,I'mnevergonnahaveone,obviously,"untilIdid.Anditdidn'tmatterthatIwaslikea1in10,000chancebecauseithappenedtome.Kelly:Exactly,right.Andsothisiswherepersonalizedmedicineyouknow,isthewaveofthefuture.Andunfortunately,intheconventionalmodel,wejustaren'ttrainedtothinkthatway,right?We'retrainedtothinkofyouas,youknow,you'rethecirrhosisintheroom104.Youknow,it'sadisease-basedmodel.Andwe'relearningthatifwereallybegintolookatandindividualizesortofapplicationoftheavailablescience,peoplehaveexperiencesthataremoreempoweringtothemthattheycanhealfrommorequickly,andyouknow,sortofintegrateintotheirlifepathmoremeaningfully.Katie:Yeah,Ithinkthat'sreallypowerfulthatthesearepotentiallyverybigsymptoms,butthey'renotnecessarilytherootoftheproblem.Ithinkthat'ssuperimportant.AndIagreewithyou,Ithinkmostdoctorsdomeanwell,andlikeyouwouldn'tmakeitthroughallthoseyearsofschoolifyoudidn'thaveadesiretohelppeople.Andunfortunately,I'vemetafewthoughthathavethat...I'veseenthecoffeemugandtheyhavetheattitudelike,"Don'tconfuseyourGooglesearchwithmymedicaldegree."Andtheykindoflikeevenlikepoo-pootheideaof"informedconsent."AndIamalwayslike,"No,don'tconfuseyourmedicaldegreewithlikemenothavingarighttomyownbodilyautonomyrightnow."


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ButIthinkthisissuper,superimportantandIwannagodeephere.Sowhataresomeofthewaysthatyou'reseeingtheoutcomes?Becausefromreadingthroughyourblogyou'rehavingamazingresults.AndasIsaid,Ihavefriendswhoarestrugglingwithdepressionorthesedifferent...especiallypostpartumdepression.Anditisaveryrealthing.Likewhatthey'regoingthroughisreal,buttheyalsomaybenotgettingthebestsolution.Socanyoutalktothatonadeeperlevel?Kelly:Absolutely.Imean,thisiswhyIwakeupeverysingledaybecauseyouknow,IliterallyhavewhatIthinkisthebestjobintheworldandIcertainlydidn'tfeelthatwaywhenIwasprescribing.Youknow,myspecializationasImentionedwasinpregnancyandpostpartum,andsoIwouldsaythebulkofmypatientsasparticularlyearlyonwerelabeledwithpostpartumdepression,andmanyofthemweremedicated.It'sinterestingbecausethereareactuallylikethreerandomizedtrialsofantidepressantsinthepostpartumwindow,sowe'rejustsortofassumingandextrapolatingfromotherassumptions.Andextrapolationsaroundmedicationfordepressioninthisveryspecialpopulation.Youknow,whatisgoingonphysiologically,again,fromanimmunestandpoint,fromanendocrinestandpoint.Thatistotallyunacknowledgedbypsychiatryasabranchofmedicine.Imean,wedon'tgeteducatedabouthormonesandimmunefunction.Thatisjustnotapartofpsychiatricawareness.Unfortunately,consideringawholebranchofmedicinecalledPsychoneuroimmunologyis20yearsold.Youknow,thisisnotnewfangledstuff,butwedon'tlearnaboutit.Andsothatpersonislookingatapostpartumwomanasjustbasicallyanotheryouknow,caseofmajordepressivedisorderthathappenstobehappeningpostpartum,youknow.Andthat'sabsolutelynotthecase.Imean,theadaptationbacktooptimalphysiologypostpartumisbecomingmoreandmorecomplex,andIthinkit'sprobablypartofthebodyburdenthatwe'retakingonintergenerationallythatmakesitmorechallengingforustobouncebackafterwehavebuiltahumanbeinginourbodies.Youknow,thatitmighthavebeen200to300yearsago.Sothere'saveryrealphysiologiccomponentnottomentionevenjusttheemergenceofautoimmuneconditionspostpartumthatmasqueradepsychiatricallyright.ButthenIbelievethatthereareotherelementsyouknow,asIhavedelvedintosortofunderstandinghowwe'veevolvedandwhatwediddifferentlyancestrallythanwedonow,justsortoflongingforthiskindofwisdom.It'sbecomereallyapparenttomethat,youknow,IpracticeinManhattan,thatwe'reraisingbabiesaswomeninawaythathasneverbeenattemptedbeforeinhumanhistory,right?Likeifyouthinkaboutit,Idon'tthinkawomaninhumanhistorywaseveralonewithababyorbabies,okay?Thatwouldhavebeenamajorsignalofbodilyyouknow,threatifawomanwaseveralonesomehowwithherbabybecausewearealwaysandhavealwaysbeencommunityorientedtribalpeople.Andwealwayshadmanymanyeyesaroundus,manymanyhandstohelpus.Andparticularly,youknow,awomanwhohasrecentlygivenbirthyouknow,therewasanentirevillagethereofyouknow,sisters,cousins,aunts,friendstosupportthatprocess.Sowhenyouareyouknow,inyourBrooklynapartmentbyyourselfforeighthourswithyournewbornandyouhavenoideawhatyou'redoing,youhavenosupportaroundyourownself-care,shouldwepathologizethefactthatthatthere'ssomeprettymajoralarmbellsgoingoffinthatwoman'sbody,mind,andspirit?Idon'tknow.Seemstomelikemaybethat'sasignandasignal,aninvitationtoyouknow,totakealookatwhat'soutofbalancehereandwhatcouldbeyouknow,betteroffered,whatkindofsupportcouldbemanifested.Sothatsortof,thewholeculturalcontextistotallyignoredaswell.Soyouknow,whenitcomestothequestionof...andIgetthisquestionalot.Well,that'sinterestingandyou


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know,ofcourse,thatmakessenseandyouknow,youdowannalookatthelifestylefactorsandtrytooptimizethemovertime.Butobviously,ifsomeoneisreallystrugglingtheyneedmedication,right?sothat'sthequestionthatofcourse,Iget,andit'ssuchanembeddedassumption.Andofcourse,asImentioned,itwasmyassumptionaswell.Imean,itwasmyassumptionforthegreaterpartofmyconventionalcareerthatIwouldhaveconsiderednootheralternativeasbeingevenremotelylegitimate,andofcourse,wouldhaveassumeditwasarecklessthingnottoprescribe.Butwhathasledmetotheconclusionthatbeginningwithmedicationasafirstlineintervention,youknow,sortofthattherearesignificantflawsinthatthinking,isactuallythescientificliteratureitself,right?SoI'vehadmyownsortofprocessofawakeningandyouknow,sortofspiritualrebirthoverthepastyouknow,aboutinalmost10yearsbutthatjustgivescolortothesciencethatIhaveexploredwhichsuggeststhatactually,theefficacyofthesemedicationsisn'twhatwearetolditis,andthatthesafetyofthesemedicationsisabsolutelynotdisclosedtotheaveragepatient.AndtherearesomeprettyalarmingthingsthatIhavelearnedthatledmetoputdownmyprescriptionpad.Butthat'sallsecondarytothefactthattheoutcomesthatIhaveseeninmyownpracticeandonlineprogramsincecommittingtothisnon-medicationorientationliterallyblowmeawayeveryday.Becauseyouknow,whenIfirststarteddownthispathIjustknewthatIrecoveredmyselfandIknewIwastoldthatthatwasn'tpossible.Okay,sowiththatinmindIwasembarkingdownthispathyouknow,withwomenwhoarecurious,buttheycertainlydidn'thavemuchreasontobeconfidentinmyapproachbecauseIdidn'tknowwhatIwasdoingeither,youknow.Thosearethehumbleorigins.Butovertimeyouknow,Ihaverefinedandtested,andperhapsIdon'tknow,youknow,perfectedforsomeready,willing,andablewomen,aprotocolthatseemstobeaslamdunk.AndIwouldprefaceyouknow,whatI'msayingwithoneveryimportantcaveatwhichisthat"Youmustbelievethatthisispossible."Youmustbelievethatyouarenotyouknow,fundamentallyapsychiatricpatient.Youknow,amentalcaseforlife.Youmustbelievethatyourbodyhasthecapacitytohealthatyouwerenevertoldofyouknow,waspossible.Andyoumustbelievethatwhateveryouencounterinyourlifeinthedarkerrealms,right?Soaroundstruggle,andsuffering,andgrief,andpain.Thatthat'sapartofthehumanexperience.Allofthoseprincipleshavetobeatplayinorderforthistowork.Andiftheyare,italwaysworks.Sothemindsetandthebeliefisanon-negotiableingredientandwhenit'sthere,it'salmosttheassuranceoftheoutcomeyoumostdesire.Andyouknow,sowhatIhavefoundisthatIthoughtatonepointthatmentalillnesswasageneticproblem,right?Youraunthasschizophrenia,yourcousinhasschizophrenia,youknow,whatifafteryouhaveababyyougocrazy,right?It'sinyourfamily.Oryouknow,yourdadhasalcoholism,andyouruncleisaheroinaddict,soprobablyyou'regonnabeanaddictofsomekindtoo.Thisisthegeneticdeterminismmodelthatunderpinsconventionalthinkingaroundhealthanddisease.It'sthrougheverysinglediscipline.Andthere'ssomeappealtothat,right?Becauseitsortoftakestheresponsibilityoutofyourhands.Ifwhatyoueatdoesn'tmatter,ifwhatyouthinkdoesn'tmatter,ifyou'retoxicexposuresdon'tmatter.Becauseit'syouknow,geneticallywritten,andwell,it'sadiseaseandyoujustgottamanageit,there'snothingyoucandoaboutit.Thenyousortofgetvalidatedyouknow,inyourstruggle.Andthenyoualsosortofjusthavetofollowtherules,right?Butthere'snothingintherethatsays,"Noactually,youhavetotakeresponsibilityforthis."Andifyoudothat,whichisreallyhard.Butifyoudothat,thenyouhavethepotentialtobebasicallyrebornasahuman.Youhavethepotentialtohealandevolveonyourpersonaltrajectory,inwaysthatyounevereverthoughtwerepossible.Soisn'tthatawesome,youknow?


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ButwhatIfindisthatalotofpeopleresistthat,right?Theyresistthisideathatit'snotgeneticorthatit'snotachemicalimbalance.Becauseinsomeways,putstheballbackintheircourttomakesomeprettyradicalchangestotheirlivesyouknow.Andthosechangesstartwithself-careandarealcommitmenttoself-care.Thatisyouknow,oftenrequires...Idon'thavetotellyouthat,atotalrestructuringofyourlifearoundthatcommitment.Andthenitbeginstosortoftrickleoutwards.Andyouknow,Ihaveastaggeringdivorceratefrombeginningtocompletionoftreatmentinmypractice.It'snotsomethingIencourageoryouknow,evennecessarilyhaveanyyouknow,sortofsayin.Butpartoftheprocessofsortofawakeningtoyourownempowerment,whichIhavewitnessedcomeswiththemedicationtaperingexperience,iswakingupyouknow,tothecircumstancesofyourlifeandsaying,"Actually,Idon'twannaworkthisjobanymore."Or"ActuallyIhatelivinginthishouse."Or"Actuallythisrelationshipnolongerservesmeandit'sacontainerIneedtobreakoutof."Soyouknow,thisisnotapathforyouknow,thefeebil,Idon'tknow,thefaintofheart.Imean,it'sawarriorpathinmanyways.ButIdobelievethatmoreandmorewomenarebeingcalledtothisportaltotheirownself-empowerment.AndwhatIhavefoundagain,justthroughobservation,isthatthereisalevelofconsciousnessthatyoucanachievewhenyou'remedicated.Andthenthereisawholeanotherpartofyouthatisyouknow,expansivelyexposedasyoucomeoffofmedicationandwhenyou'reoffit.AndI'vetriedtosortofcatalogthistransformationalprocessonmywebsitethroughvideointerviews.Andwehavelike15morethatwe'recatalogingaswespeak.Becauseyouknow,don'ttakeitfromme,youknow,takeitfromwomenwho'vebeeninthetrenchesthemselves.Andyouknow,understandfromthemwhatitfeltliketobemedicated,andthenwhatitfeelsliketonowhealtheirbodiesandtakeyouknow,aroleintheirexperiencethattheyhadabdicatedbeforetheysortofgaveawaybefore.Becauseyouknow,whenwetakemedication...andthishasbeenaverycontroversialIdon'tknowwhat,perspective.I'vetakenalotofheatforthisperspective,butIstandbyit.Youknow,weaswomen,whenwetakemedication,Ibelievewe'resayingnotoourselves,right?Becausewhydowetakemedicationofanykind?Becausewhatwe'refeelingiseitherscarytousorthreateningtootherpeople.Andthatfeelingcanbeyouknow,pain,itcanbeconfusion,itcanbeevenecstasyyouknow,itcanbeyouknow,differentformsofmania,itcanbesomekindofspiritualyouknow,sortofperceptualexperienceofyouknow,hallucinationsorperceptualchanges.Whateveritis,ourexperienceisnotokay.Andsowetakemedicationssothatwecanmanagethe"notokayness."Andagain,thatmakessenseifyou'relookingatitthroughacertainlensofpotentialoptions.Butmysortofgoalistoforegroundoneoptionthatnooneisgonnaevertellyouaboutunlessyou'velearnedaboutitthroughyourowngoogling,right?Throughyourownresearch.Whichisthatactually,ifwejustbegintolookwithcuriosityatwhat'supinyourlifeatthatmoment,literallyfromwhatyou'reeating,allthewaytoyouknow,whatyourspiritualbeliefsare,wewillbegintounderstandwhythisishappeningandwecanhealitandmoveyouforward,insteadofjustarrestingyouinaplaceofmanagedsymptoms.Ifthatmakesense.Katie:Thatabsolutelydoes.AndIknowthatyouhavenofearoftacklingcontroversialtopics,soIwannadelveintoone.BecauseatleastfromwhatIcanlookatfromtheoutside,Ithinkthere'sareallypowerfulconnection.Andthat'swithhormonalcontraceptives.Iknow,likeItalkaboutthemprettyregularlyandpeopleandpeoplearelike,"Yeah,wellobviously,becauseyouhavesixkids."I'mlike"Yeah,butthereasonthatI'magainstthemisnot..."Imean,formethere'spersonalreasons,butIthinktherearehuge,huge,healthimplicationsthere.Andifyoulookatthestatistics.I'mahugefanoflookingattrendsovertime.And


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whenbirthcontrolbecamewidespread,wedidseeahugeriseinmentalhealthillnessesinwomen,andweseeamuchbiggernumbersinwomenthanmen.Andinmyline,likefertilityisnotthedisease.Wedon'tneedtomedicateagainstit.Whichdoesn'tmeanyouhavetohaveabazillionchildren.ButI'dlovetohearyourtakeonthis.Kelly:Well,listen.We'retotallyonthesamepage.IthinkIprobablybackedintoyouknow,yourperspectiveagain,fromtheotherside.Itookbirthcontrolpersonallyfor12yearsstraight.Ioftenonlyallowedmyselftobleedtwotimesinacalendaryear,becausewhywouldIbebotheredbymyannoyingperiod?ThiswasliterallythementalityofthekindofafeministthatIwasatthetime.Andyouknow,whenIbegantoresearchpharmaceuticalsinthisyouknow,posthealingprocessofmyown,Iwasveryinterestedinpharmaceuticalproductsthataredeliveredtohealthypeople.Andtherearen'tthatmanyofthem.Birthcontrolisoneofthem,vaccinesareanother,andthereareahandfulofothers.Butwhenhealthypeopletakemedication,wehavetohaveavery...Iwouldsay,youknow,refinedfilterforhowwearegoingtoassesstherisk-benefitanalysisbasedonalloftheavailableliterature,notjusttheliteraturethatthepharmaceuticalcompaniesaresharingwithus,right?It'saninterestingfactthatyouknow,fortheapprovalofmedication,onlytwostudiesarerequiredbytheFDA,right?Soifyou'reapharmaceuticalcompany,youcanconduct100studies.Onceyougettwo,yousubmitthemforapproval.Sothere'salotinthejustsortofmechanicsofthisbusinessthatareveryenlighteningtohelpremindusthatthisisabusiness,right?Whenyougoshoppingforacarorforacellphone,youhaveahealthyskepticismaroundalloftheclaimsandpromisesbecauseyouknow,thatit'sabusinessandthey'reinterestedintheirbottomline,andtheyknowhowtosortofyouknow,grabyoubysortofyourpainpoints,fromamarketingperspective.Andweforgetthatwhenwelookatthepharmaceuticalindustrybecausewehavesodeifiedyouknow,doctorsandmedicine.It'slikethelastremainingreligion.Andweforgetthatactually,they'reyouknow,sortofdeeplyinterwovenwiththebusinessyouknow,thismulti-billiondollarbusinessthatisveryverygoodatwhatitdoes.Andifyourememberthatit'sabusiness,youwon'tbeconfusedintothinkingthatyouknow,PfizerorGlaxoishereforyourwellness.Youarehereforyourwellness.It'syourresponsibilityasaconsumerofyouknow,productstodoyourownhomework.Andthat'swhythatmugissohilarious,thatyoumentionedinthedoctor's'officebecauseyouknow,thatisthegreatestthreattoindustryisthatpeopleareactuallyinformingthemselves.ButwhatIlearnedwhenIbegantoresearchbirthcontrolpillisprettyshockingtome,becauseIunderstoodonabasicbiochemicallevelthatwehaveagain,scientificliteraturetosuggestthatitdepletesverykeynutrients,particularly,keynutrientslikeintheBvitaminfamily,inantioxidantsthatyoudon'twantdepletedrightbeforeapregnancy.Andthat'swhatmostofusdo.Youknow,Istopbirthcontrol,monthslaterIconceived.Imean,talkaboutanunconsciousprocess,right?Butthat'saverycommonexperience.Soitdepleteskeynutrients.Ithasverysignificantpro-inflammatoryeffectslargelymeasuredbyabloodmessengercalledCRP.Andthenthereisthisveryinteresting,asyoumentionedsortoftrendof,youknow,sortofspecificallymooddisorders,butatrendthatimplicatesthesesynthetichormonesinthebeginningofyourpsychiatriccareer.AndtherewasaveryrecentstudythatcameoutthatactuallylookedatIthinkamillionteenage...itwaslikeyouknow,apopulation-basedstudy.Amillionteenagers,andfoundastatisticallyalarmingincreaseinpsychiatricprescribingtothosegirlsaftertheyhadinitiatedbirthcontrol.


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Andsoweknowjustfromepidemiologicstudiesthatthisisaveryrealcontributor,butthenwehavelikeyouknow,anecdotalevidence,whichIloveissosodismissedbytheestablishment,butisprobablythemostimportantkindofevidencebecauseitaccountsforthemanydifferentvariablesthatcanleaduptoanundesirableoutcome,thatsuggeststhatprettyradicalstuffcanhappenwhenyoutakedifferentkindsofbirthcontrol.Likeyoucanyouknow,developepisodesofmania,youknow,youcanhaveprettysignificantchangeliketofundamentalaspectsofyourpersonality,andhopefully,weknowthatithas,birthcontrolhassignificanteffectsonyourlibido.Andyouknow,perhaps,evenmorealarmististhefactthatthereisaRussianroulettethatyouplaywhenyoutakebirthcontrol.Imean,asI'vegottenintothisrealmofactivism,I'vebeencontactedbycountlessmothers.Oneactuallywhoendedupcompletingsuicidebecauseshecouldn'ttoleratethedeathofherowndaughtertoneutering.Youknow,CarolineHart,incredibleintrepidactivist,andherheartwascompletelybrokenyouknow,whenherdaughtertotallyhealthy,Ithinkshewas21-years-old,daughterdiedofanembolisminducedbyneutering.Andneuteringisasyntheticcontraceptivehormonethat'ssoconvesh.Popitrightinandleaveitinforthreeweeks.Anditseemssoinnocentbutthefactthatwedon'thaveameansofidentifyingwhoisatriskinthesewaysmeansthatweshouldprobablynotbeprescribingthemuntilwehavethatmeansandmethodology.That'smyperspective.Becauseyouknow,thegreaterconcernisthatwearetradingsomethingreallysignificantwhenweoptintopharmaceuticalmanagementofourbodiesaswomenthatnooneisgoingtowarnusaboutinformedconsent.SoevenifyoulearnaboutalltherisksIjustmentioned,noneofthosespeaktothefactthatwhenyoudon'thavearelationshiptoyourbodyandyourownhormonalbalance,it'sverydifficulttobecomeanembodiedandempoweredwoman.Andthisisagain,comingfromsomeonewhospentthegreaterpartofmyadultlifethatwayandnowyouknow,Iuseadaisy.Youknow,nowislikeabasicallyafancythermometerforcontraception.AndIam39yearsold,andIamjustnowlearningaboutmymenstrualcycle,literally.Youknow,becauseIhadtwobabiesandbreastfed,andjustnowinmylifeIamlearningaboutwhatamenstrualcycleis.Andyouknow,itcanobviouslybedismissedassortoflikewoowoo,youknow,spiritualitytothinkthatweshouldhavesomeabilitytoidentifywiththecyclicalnatureofourbiology,butthat'ssortofwherewelearnhowtoworkwithourenergysothatwedon'texperienceourselvesasmen,youknow.Assortoflikeyouknow,justmenwithlonghairandboobs.Youknow,that'snotwhatweare.Weareadifferentorganismwithadifferentconnectiontothenaturalworldandwehavewithinusanativereservoirofpowerthatcanonlybeaccessedwhenwefullyembodyandweheal.Andthat'sabigpartofwhatIthinkyouknow,hastohappenforwomentounderstandhowtorelatetotheseverystrongemotionalexperiencesthatcanotherwisereallybedisablingbutareprobablyapartoftheirhumanexperience.Katie:Ilovethat.AndIthinkthatthat'sgonnabeanimportantdistinction.AndIthinkthatyouhavesomegreatinformationaboutthis.Actually,whenIwaslookingatyoursitetofindthingstolinktointheshownotesIfoundsomanythatI'mgonnahavetofigureouthowtoeliminatebecauseyouhavesomanygreatarticlesonthis.Andanotherthingthatyou'vetouchedonseveraltimesistheimmuneconnection.Andyou'vemadeseveralreferencestotheimmunesideofallofthisandwithmedication.AndI'dlovetodelvetherealittlebit.Andifyou'reokaywithit,I'dlovetoeventouchontheevenmorecontroversialtopicwhicharevaccines.Itypically


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steerawayfromthemontheblogjustbecauseIfeellikeit'salmostimpossibletohaveacivilconversationaboutthemformostpeoplebuttheconversationsIgetinperson,evenwithhealthexperts,andevenhealthconferences.Typically,it'sontheverysurfacelevelof"Theydon'tcauseautism,it'sproventheydon'tcauseautism.Andthisdiscussionisabsurdtoevenconsiderifthey'redangerous."AndI'mlike,"Okay,wecantakeautismoutofit.WhatI'mlookingatis,we'reseeingahugeriseinautoimmunedisease.Andyoucan'ttellmethatsomethingthat'sdesignedtoactivatetheimmunesystemdoesn'thaveaneffectontheimmunesystem."Somaybethat'snottheconnectionyouwerereferringto,butIwouldlovetohearwhatyouseetheroleoftheimmunesystemintheseproblemsthatwe'reseeingandarevaccinesimplicatedthereatall.Kelly:SointerestingthatyoushouldaskmethatquestionbecauseIactually...andI'mhappytoyouknow,sortofprovidethislinktoo,butI'vepublishedapaperonthisexactsubject.It'stheonlypeer-reviewedindexjournalpaperonPubMedofitskind.Andit'scalled"ThePsychobiologyofVaccination."Youknow,I'mapsychiatristbytraining.obviously,whatbusinessdoIhavethinkingIhaveanythingtosayabouttheimmunesystem?Well,it'sinterestinghowthingshaveunfoldedbecausenotonly,asImentionedearlier,haveItakenaverydeepdiveintoImmunophysiologythroughmyinterestinthisburgeoningfieldcalledpsychoneuroimmunology.Sometimesit'scalledPsychoneuroendocrinology.Butbasically,itwascoinedyouknow,morethantwodecadesagonow.Anditreferstothisconnected,youknow,theconnectivityaroundgutphysiology,theimmunesystem,theendocrinesystem,andthepsychopartis,believeitornot,thoughts,right?Soit'sactuallytheabilityofperceptionandthoughtsandmindsettoinfluenceallofwhatwejustmentioned.Sopsychoneuroimmunologyisaveryradical,butagain,increasinglylegitimizedfield.It'sradicalbecauseitbreaksdowntheperceivedbarriersbetweenthesedifferentbranchesofmedicine,right?Soconventionalmedicineissetupwhereyougototheneurologistforyourheadache,andyougotothegastroenterologistforyourreflux,andyougoyouknow,tothepodiatristforyourathlete'sfoot.Andnoneofthosethingsobviouslyhaveanythingtodowithoneanotherbecauseeachisaseparatediscipline.Andthatthinkingisyouknow,largelyCartesianinnature,soit'sabout300yearsinthemakingthatwehavethoughtaboutthebodyasbeingthissortofmachine,right?Asthesecompartmentalizeareasthathavedifferentfunctionsandthey'renotreally,youknow,theydon'thaveanoverarchinginteraction.AndsoinmyinterestinPsychoneuroimmunologyandalsomyveryvestedinterestasamom.Soontobemom.Ibegantodomyresearchandit'sinterestingbecausewhenIwasverymuchstillprescribing...soIwaspregnant,inmyfellowshipIwasprescribingtopregnantwomen,everyday.ButItookthatprescribingseriouslyandIamazinglythoughtIwasdoingagoodthing.SoIhavealotofempathy,youknow,forpeoplewhoarestillinthematrix,sotospeak,becauseIknowthatyoucanfeellikeyou'redoingtherightthingandstillperhapsbeviolatingsomebasicethicaltenetsofmedicine.Butanyway,inthetwotwoflushotyearsoftheswinefluandtheseasonalflushotwhichwas2009,Iwaspregnant,andIwastreatingpregnantwomen.AndIhadtwopatientswhohadsecond-trimesterstill-births.Somiscarriagesinthesecondtrimesterwhichyouknow,asyouknow,probablywouldagreeisupthereonthelistofthemosttraumaticthingsthatcaneverhappentoawoman.Andyouknow,assomeonewhowasdeeplyinvestedinwhetherornotthiswasrelatedtomedications,IwasprettyalarmedtolearnthatbothofthosecaseshadreceivedthedoubleflushotthatseasonandsoIsaid,"Wellokay,perhapsitwasrelatedtomedicationIprescribed,perhapsnot,inthesetwoincidencesinthesameseason."AndIsaid,"Letmelookatwhatthereisyouknow,intermsofdata,youknow,toimplicatethe


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flushotinthiskindofanoutcome."Andyouknow,I'vewrittenawholearticleaboutthis.ButitwasverydisturbingwhatIlearned.Whichisnotonly...youknow,youcanlearnalotfromreadingpackageinserts.Andyouknow,totheskepticsoutthereIwouldsuggestyoujuststartthere,becauseifapharmaceuticalcompanyiswillingtotellyouaboutit,probablyit'sbecausetheyhadnochoicebuttotellyouaboutit,right?Soifyoujustlookatthepackageinsertyou'lllearnthatthereisabsolutelynosafetyorefficacydatafortheflushot,forexample,inthepregnantpopulation.Andsomeanwhile,youknow,thatwasoneofthefirstyearsthatitwasbecomingroutinelyrecommended.Andthatwasthebeginningofyouknow,Alice'sfalldowntherabbitholeformebecauseIcangetextremelyobsessivewhenitcomestoscience.AndIhaveactuallycalculatedthatIputin10,000hoursofresearchonthesubjectofimmunology,andspecificallyvaccines.Andactually,believeitornot,immunologyasanarmofmedicineisvaccinology.That'sallthatimmunologyis,isthestudyofvaccinesandit'slargelypredicatedonthisassumptionthatantibodiesequalimmunity.Andwe'vemovedsofarpastthat.Youknow,likewehavewholedeepinsightsintoinnateimmunity,andthecomplexityofmessengersystemssetupinouryouknow,basicimmunologiccascadesthathasinnowaybeenaccountedforbythescienceofvaccineswhichisnowmorethan200yearsoldandnotupdatedatall,literally.Notupdatedwiththediscoveryofthemicrobiomewhichshouldtotallyre-centerthewholeideaofgermtheoryortheideathattherearebadgermsouttherethataregonnaattackyouandinfectyou,right?That'sgermtheory.SonotaccountingforthediscoveryofDNA,okay.Sothere'sbeenlikesomeprettyimportantsciencethat'scomeonthescenesincetherudimentarydevelopmentofvaccinetechnology.ButwhathappenedKatie,isthatin1986underthepressureoflawsuitsthatwereyouknow,inwavescomingatthepharmaceuticalindustry.LargelyaroundtheDPTvaccine.Therewasanamendmentthatwasissuedtoofferimmunity.Basically,thepharmaceuticalcompaniessaid,"Well,wecan'tdothisanymorebecausewe'regonnafoldunderthe,youknow,governmentbasedrecommendationsforthesevaccines,andwe'resufferingtoomanylawsuitsforinjuryanddamagerelatedtothem.Sowejustcan'tdoit."Sowhattheydidinsteadwasthattheyofferedimmunitytocliniciansandtotheentireindustry.Andthen,ofcourse,itbecame...byimmunityImeanlegalimmunity.Likeyoucan'tsueanylonger,adrugcompanyevenifyoudieonthetablegettingavaccine.Andsothere'snosuchbiologicalproduct.Infact,theonlyotherindustrythathasthiskindofimmunityisthenuclearindustry.Youknow,sowiththatcamethegoldrushrightbecauserememberit'sabusiness.Andsoifyoudon'thavetoreallyprovesafetyanymore,youdon'thavetoproveefficacy.AndyoucanjustgetthesethingsontheschedulemandatedtoeveryhumanonEarth.Well,that'sprettymuchexactlywhathappened.Sonowwehave69dosesof16vaccinesdeliveredtoyouknow,children.AndwhenIwasakidyouknow,therewaslessthanathirdofthatontheschedule.Sothatexplosionhasbeenadirectresultofindustryopportunity.Andthatisjustanimportantcontexttothenconsiderthefullavailablescience,right.Sorememberthatthere'sthesciencethatservesthebottomlineofindustry,andthenthere'smorescienceavailable,right.Soifyouwanttoasanyoldparentoranyoldinterestedperson,hopontoPubMed,youwouldfindsomeinterestingdatatosupportaverydifferentstoryaroundthepurportedsafetyandefficacyofthisonesizefitsallpharmaceuticalintervention.Sohopefully,bythispointinourconversation,wecanagreethatthereprobablyshouldn'tbeanysuchthingasa"onesizefitsall"medicalinterventionforhealthypeople.Especiallyifthere'sanysignalofdanger.And


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thegovernmentitselfhasacknowledgedthatvaccineskillandtheyinjure.Thisisnottheory,thisiswelldocumented,thisislegallyacknowledged.Andwedon'tknowwhotheykillorinjure,right?Sountilwedo,that'saprettybigrisk.Especially,ifyou'reoftheperspectivethatillnessisapartoflivingandthatinfectiousillnessinspecific,andparticularlyinthechildhoodyears,probablyplayedaprettyimportantrolehistorically,intoningandyouknow,sortofrefiningourimmuneresponse.Itmighthavehadsomethingtodowiththefactthatautoimmuneconditionscertainlydidn'texistintheproportionthattheydotoday,evenyouknow,60yearsago.Sothere'salotmoretothestory.Iwrotethispaperjustfocusingonthepsychiatricelementsofyouknow,sortofthe...becauseit'sverycomplex.Youknow,whathappensoftenwithVaccineInjuryisthatpeoplebecomepsychiatricpatients.Particularlychildren.SotheydevelopneurodevelopmentalimpairmentorADHDorotherkindsofbrain-basedinflammatoryprocesses.Andwhocomestotherescue?Youknow,yourfamilypsychiatristandthentheybecomepsychpatientsforlife.Andwhat'sevenmoredisturbingislikeinSouthAmerica,therewasapushtoinjectgirlswiththeGardasilvaccine.That'sHPVvaccineso.Andwhathappenedwastherewasjustlikewavesofneurologicdysfunctionandinjury.Andwhathappenedfromamediastandpointwasthatitwasportrayedashysteria,right?Sothisislikefreightlevel.Youknow,sortofmuzzlingofwomenwhoaretryingtoinsomewaysblowthewhistleonthefactthatthese...thatoneinparticular,aluminum-containingvaccineiscausingacuteinjury.Imean,there'smorethan140girlswhoaredeadbecauseoftheGardasilvaccine.Andinsteadofacknowledgingthatandseekingtoresearchandstudyitlike"Whathappenedthere?Likedidtheyhaveanythingincommon?Wasthereanyevidenceonblood?Youknow,analysisthatwecouldidentifywhathappenedthere?"No,theyweresilencedandtheyweretoldthattheywerehysterical.Youknow,sortoftheoldestformofmisoginyassortofbeingbredthroughthesuppressionofthisinformation.Andyouknow,listenanytimesomethingissuchahottopicthatwecan'teventalkaboutit,understandthatthere'sprobablymoretothestory.Anyscientistwilltellyouthatthereisnosuchthingassciencebeingsettled.Thedefinitionofscienceisthatisitisanevolvinginquiry.Andwhenyou,youknow,proclaimthatit'ssettled,you'reprobablydoingsobecausetheanswersthatmightbearrivedatthroughagreaterinvestigationareinconvenienttosomeyouknow,bottomlinethatyou'reprotecting.Katie:Ireallyloveyourperspectiveonthat.Ifeellikeyouhaveareallydeepunderstandingofit.AnditdrivesmecrazywhenIhearpeoplesaylike,"No,it'sscientificallyproventhatvaccinesaresafe."AndI'mlike,"Nothinginthatsentenceisactuallytrue."ButIthinkthat'sareallyimportantpoint.AndIlovethatyou'reverybalancedonthis.You'renotsayingunequivocallylikevaccinesareabsolutelyhorriblebutthatyouthinkthatparentstotakeathoughtfulandresearchedbackapproach.WhichIthink,nomatterwhattheissueis,allofuscanlearnfromdoingthatinanyaspectofourlife.

Doyoulovethetasteandthebenefitsofbonebrothbutdon’tlovehowtimeconsumingitistomake?Withthetimeyouspendsourcingthebestingredientsandthensimmeringitforhoursonendonthestove.KettleandFiresolvesthatproblemwiththeirbonebroth.Sotheyuseonlybonesfrom100%grass-fedpastureraisedcattlethatarenevergivenhormonesandantibiotics.It’salsouniquebecausetheyfocusonbonesthatareespeciallyhighincollagen,whichisoneofthehealthiestthingsyoucanputinyourbody.Anothergreatthingaboutthemisthattheyusereallyeco-friendlyminimalpackagingandtheirbonebothisnon-perishable.Sounlikemanybonebrothsonthemarket,itshipswithouttheneedforrefrigeration,whichisalsomuch


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moreeco-friendly.Itisavailableinmanystores,sodefinitelycheckyourlocalarea.Butifit’snot,likeitisn’tforme,youcanorderitonlineandhaveitshippedtoyourdoor,whichiswhatIdo.Sotocheckitoutandtofindoutmoreaboutwhytheirbonebrothissowonderful,gotokettleandfire.com/wellnessmama.

ThisepisodeissponsoredbyPlantTherapy.TherearesomanyoptionsouttherewhenitcomestoessentialoilsandI’veusedalotofthemovertheyears.NowImostoftenturntoPlantTherapybecausetheyhavealargeassortmentoforganicoilsandawholelotofkid-safeblendsandtheyalsohavereallygoodprices.Thecoolthingistheiroilshavenoadditivesorsyntheticingredientslikealotofoilsdo.Andtheypublishtheirtestingresultsforalloftheiroilssoyoucanverifythequality.I’vetalkedalotaboutthesafeuseofessentialoilsandtheirkid-safeblendsareformulatedbyRobertTisserand,whoislargelyconsideredoneoftheforemostexpertsinessentialoilsafety,soIfeelIcantrusthim.Ifyouwanttocheckthemout,especiallyrightnowthey’rerunningsomebigsalesthatarechangingdaily.Gotowellnessmama.com/go/oilstogetallthecurrentdiscounts.

Katie:Andanotherareathatyoutalkaboutifyouhavetimetotalkaboutitisplastics.Andyouhavethis...Ithinkyoumentioneditinapostyouhaveabout"fivethingsyoucandotohelpyourkidsbehealthy."Andthat'sdefinitelyoneofmysoapboxesisplastic.Solet'stalkaboutplastic.What'syourstanceonthat?Kelly:IprobablylearnedalotofwhatIknowfromyou.Imeanyeah,Ithinkthatit'sbeenaninterestingthingtosortofinvestigatethewaysthatwe'vestrayedfromthepathofouroptimalwellnessashumansinserviceofconveniences,andease,andcomfort,right?BecausesomanyofthethingsthatyouandItalkaboutyouknow,whetherit'smedicationsortheuseofpesticidesortheuseofplastics.Alloftheseinterventionsseemedlikeareallygoodideaatonepointandintimeright?Itseemedlikeawaytoeitheroutsmarttheinconveniencesofnature,tomakeourlivessimpleryouknow,faster,better,morecomfortable.Totakeawayyouknow,struggle,toeliminatefear.Youknow,soyou'llfindathemeinalloftheseinterventionsthatIhavesoughttobringunderagreaterlensofscrutiny.You'llfindthatmentalitybehindthem.Andatsomepointintime,itmadesense,buttheproblemisthatindustryhasbecomesopowerfulandunfortunately,souncheckedbygovernmentandmedia,thatweareinapositionofhavingtoeducateourselvesthroughtheprimaryscienceonourown.Andyouknow,it'sactuallybeenyouknow,quiteanumberofyearsthatwehavegoodinsightintothedangersandendocrinedisruptingimpactsspecifically,ofplastics.AndIwouldincludeyouknow,pesticidesjustnextinthatsentence.Andunfortunately,wecouldbethelasttoknowifwewaitforindustrytotellus.Andwhatindustryoftendoesistheysortofengagethisbaitandswitch,right?Sowe'relearningalotaboutBPAforexample.Andparticularly,inpregnancy,oursusceptibilityandvulnerabilityonanepigeneticleveltotheimpactofBPA.Andsowhatdoesindustrydo?Theyjustsortofsubinalesserimplicated...inmyopinion,equivalent,youknow,intheformofBPS.Andyoucouldbeassuredbytheirmarketingyouknow,thatsaysthat"Youknow,thisisBPA-free."Likeit'sprobablyabsolutelyfine.LiketheygotthemessagethatBPAissodangerous.Butit'sprobablyonlyamatteroftimebeforewelearnasmuchaboutBPS,forexample,asweknowaboutBPA.SoIthinkthatitoftencomesdowntosomethingthat...Imean,you'resoexpertinthis.Itcomesdowntosortoftryingtoalignwithancestralwisdom.Youknow,sortoflikethewisdomofourforemothers.Andtryingtogetascloseaswecanonadailybasistothewaythatthingshavebeendoneyouknow,foratleastsomeperiodofourtradition.Andyouknow,that'swherethelookingattheconveniences,whetherit'sfood-basedorotherwiseofthepast150years,it'sprobablyreasonabletosuspectthatthere'sgoingtobeadownside.


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Iwasjustsayingtheotherdaytoafriendofmine,Iwaslike"Youknowwhat?Weare..."Oh,Iknowitwas.MydaughterwasdoingsomelikeprojectonthePacificOcean,andsowe'relikedoingalittlenoodlingaroundtheinternetonit.WewerelookingatthePacificlikethegarbagepatch.Youknow,it'slikefloatingthesizeofTexasorwhateveritisinthePacificOcean.Andyouknow,yougetthislikefeelingthislikeacheinyourheartofhowwrong.Youknow,howjustwrongthisiswhatwe'redoing.Andwewerejusttalkingabouthow"Whydon'twejustgetridofplasticaltogether?Whydon'twejustcommityouknow,tothesacrificeasasocietyandjustsortofseewhathappens?Youknow,itmightbethatwehaveyouknow,sortoftheopportunitytogenerateyouknow,sortofanewemergingdiscoverythat'sgoingtobeinharmonywiththenaturalworldinawaythatplasticisn't."ButIknowit'saverytheoreticalconsiderationbutitjuststrikesmeassuchamassiveissuethatitonlymakessensethatourbodiesaresayingnotoit.Katie:Yeah,Iabsolutelyagree.AndIthinkeverythingyou'vespokento...andIcanseriouslytalktoyouforeveraboutallthisstuff.Itreallyallboilsdownto...seemslikeisacoreprincipleofwhatyouwriteandyourmission.Whichisthatthereisnoonesizefitsall,butreallyempoweringpeopletolearnandfigureoutwhattheirpersonalizedsolutionsareandtobecomeanadvocateforthat.SoIwanttokindof...canwesteertowardstherenowandtalkabouthowdopeoplefindthis?Ifeellikealotoftimesyoufeelverydisempowered.Itseemsveryhelplessattimeswhenyouhaveanykindofahealthproblemtotrytofindtheanswers.AndIdon'tknowwhatyourHashimoto'sstorywasbutminetookyearsandeightdoctorsbeforeIcouldfindtheanswers.AndIthinkalotofpeoplearestuckinthatcycle.Sowhatisyouradviceforfindingyourownpersonalizedmedicineandbecominganadvocateyourself?Kelly:Yes,ImeanIdefinitelybelievethatifyou'reopen,peoplefindexactlytheinformationthattheyneedtohealthemselves.Youknow,Iwasspeakingataconferencerecently,anditwaslikeanessentialoilyouknow,sortoflikefanaticconference.Ididn'tevenknowthatuntilIshowedupthere.Andyouknow,therewerepeoplewholiterallygotthemselvesoutofwheelchairswithessentialoils.Youknow,Iuseessentialoilsathome.Iamyouknow,hugefanofthem.ButdoIuseittoresolvechronictreatment-resistantschizophreniainmypractice?No,it'snotabigpartofmyapproach.SoIhavetobelievethatyouwillfindwhatitisthatresonateswithyouonalllevels,andwhatwillultimatelyworkforyou.Whetherthat'snutritionbasedorenergymedicine,ormaybe,Idon'tknow,Ihavetoleaveroomforconventionalmedicine.Butmyapproachisdefinitelytobeginyouknow,withthisonlineprogramIhave,VitalMindReset.Thewholepointofitwas,I'mprettysureI'mnotanecessaryingredientinthisprocess.Youknow,Idon'thaveanyspecialgiftsormagicalpowers.Andbasically,allI'mdoingisgivingpeopleinformationthattheyalreadyknow.Youknow,islikeI'mremindingthemofwhattheyalreadyknow.Butsettingupastructureforacommitmenttoselfcarethatmaybealittlebitbeyondtheircomfortzone.AndI'mabigbelieverinself-healing.Sothefirstmonthsofmyapproach,whetherit'sinmypracticeoronlineistotallyself-driven.Youknow,andit'smeanttogiveyouanexperienceinyourbodyofwhatyoucanfeellikeundercertaincontrolledcircumstances,right?Soit'saspecificdietaryapproachwhichisnotanythingthatradical,butit'syouknow,controversiallyinsomefields,andparticularly,insortoftheyogafieldsthatIintersectwith,it'sarelativelyredmeatheavydiet.Itisdailymeditation,threeminutesaday.Iamakundalniyogapractitioner,soIhappentobebiasedinthatrealm.ButIdon'tcareifyoupraytoaleprechaunforthreeminutes.Ithastobethreeminuteseverysingleday.IhadthedeepprivilegeofbeingmentoredbythenowlateDr.NicholasGonzalezwhowasaholisticcancerdoctorhereinNewYork,whohadoutcomesthathaveneverbeenmatchedinmedicalhistory,that


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werebasedonaprotocolthathadthreeprongstoit.Onewasapersonalizeddiet.Sohehelpedreifyformethisideathatthereisnotonedietforeveryone.Hehad10dietsinhispractice.HealsohelpedmetounderstandwhythedietthatItendtorecommendseemstoworkforthepeoplewhocometomewithautoimmuneconditions,andmultiplechemicalsensitivities,anddiagnosesofADHD,andsuicidaldepression,forexample,hypothyrodism.Soitwasdiet,coffeeenemas...thenotoriouscoffeeenemas,andasupplementation.AndIhavesinceyouknow,refinedmyprotocoltoincorporatehisteachingsandmyoutcomesarelikesortofhittheroofsincethat.AndIdon'tknowifit'sbecausetomehewaslikeJesusfigure,literallyinmylife.AndIjusthaveneverbeensoinspiredbyanyoneinmylifetime.Andsoperhapshavingtheopportunitytoworkwithhiminfusedmewithsomekindofanenthusiasmandpassionforthefactthattherearenocarve-outs.Imeanhetreatedpeoplewhowereliterallyleftfordeadonhospicewithmetastaticterminalcancers,includingpancreaticcancerwhichiswhatheismostknownfor.And35yearslater,they'restillalive.Youknow,Irunintothemonthestreetoryouknow,sometimesatconferences,theycomeuptomeandsay"Oh,wewerepatientsofDr.Gonzalez."Anyway,sohewasextraordinaryandhelpedmetocementmypassionforholisticmedicine.Butmysortofyouknow,thinkingisifyourecruitthesepillarsallatonceandyoucommitforonemonth.Andofcourse,partofthedietistakingoutyouknow,potentiallyaddictivebraininfluencingfoods.Thingsyouknow,likerefinedsugar,andcoffee,andalcohol,wheat,anddairy,forexample.Andyoujusthavethatexperienceforonemonth,thenoften,yourbodybeginstowakeup.Yourbodybeginstofeelsomethingispossible,andtheneverythingstartstounfoldfromthere."SoIdon'ttapermedicationsatall,notonemilligrambeforethismonthiscomplete."AndI'velearnedthehardway,trustme.Iusedtotaperyouknow,rightoffthebat.AndInever,ever,everdothat.Idonotrecommendthatunderanycircumstances.AndIamabigbelieverinthefactthateveryoneshouldhavetheopportunitytotapertheirmedicationsiftheyarecuriousaboutyouknow,whatlifecouldbelikewithoutthem.ButIdon'teverdoitbeforethat.AndsoIthinkthatthereissomesynergyinsendingthebodyasignalofsafetyfromallofthesedifferentefforts.Andperhapsevenintheritualofengagingandprioritizingyourselfcareeverysingledayinthiswaythatcanbetime-consumingandyouknow,sortofresourceconsuming.Perhapsthecommitmentaloneishealing.Butthenyougettoabaselinewhereyoucanbegintoexplorewhatitisthatyoureallyareworkingwithandhowcanyoufurtheroptimizeandrefineitandpersonalizeitfromthere.Andoften,youknow,right?Likeoftenyouaretheonewhoisinthebestpositiontopersonalizethatjourney.Butyouhavetogetclearenoughtobegintogetthoseintuitivemessagesaboutyouknow,what'srightforyou.Andit'sprettyhardtogetyouknow,thatclearifyourbodyisstrugglingagainstallofthesetoxicandexposures,andyouknow,processedfoodsetc.Andyouknow,whileIamfocusedondiagnosesofmentalillness,youknow,Ididaninterviewwithawomanwhocompletedmyprogramwhohasnopsychhistoryatall.Shehadchronicmigraines.TheworstI'veeverheardofinmylifeorentirepractice.Ineverheardofanythinglikethisthatlastedlike...shesaidherlongestonewas89days.ShewastreatedbyoneofthetopneurologistsatEmory.Andshewasonfivemedicationsjusttomanagehermigraines.HadtogoinforIVtreatment.Andnowshe'sfourmonthsIthinkoutfromthisverybasicprogram,andshe'stotallymigrainefree,offmedication,forthefirsttimeintwoyears.So,Ican'texplainthis,doesn'tmakeanysense,right?Likewhywouldthesesimpleinterventionshavesuchadramaticyield?Idon'tknow.Butmaybewhenyouapplythemallatonce,inthesettingofcommunity...becausethereisacommunityelementtomyonlineprogramthatmypatientsdon'thave.AndI'lltellyouthatmyonline


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outcomesarebetterandfaster,morerobust,moremiraculousthanmyin-personappointments,whichcostIdon'tknowliketwoordersandmoremoney.Andtheonlydifferenceisthecommunityelement.Soyouknow,Ithinkyouwouldagreeyouknow,hostingacommunityasyoudothatthereissomethingsoempowering,sohealing,tojustbeinaspaceoflikeminds.Tofeelsupportedandtofeelseen.Youknow,whoknowsmaybethat'sreallytheonlythingthat'shavingtheimpact.Butyouknow,there'scertainlyalimitationtowhatispossibleinthemedicationmodel,andIthinksomeofithastodowithwhereyou'regettingyourpowerawayandgeneratinganopportunityforyoutosortoftakeitback.Katie:Ilovethat,totally.Andyouhaveabook,"ChangeYourFood,HealYourMood"foranybodywhoreallywantssomespecifics.Andyoumentionedprogramsonyourwebsite.I'lllinktothoseaswell,buttowrapup,Iwannahaveyouspeak.There'ssomethingthatIknowisatruepassionforyou.Andyou'vetalkedaboutitalittlebitandwovenitinbutliketheideaoftakingbackthetruemeaningoffeminismandbecomingadvocatesforourselves.Andyou'vementionedcommunityseveraltimes,whichIthinkisanincrediblyimportantkeynowthatweliveinaworldthat'stheideaofcommunityisjustsocialmedia.Andwe'vekindofmovedourselvesfromwhatwe'retruelikephysicalcommunities.Infact,that'sactuallyoneofmybiggeststruggles.MyhusbandandItalkaboutthisofteniswantingtofindaplacewithatruecommunitywhereyoucanbearoundpeoplethatareatleastlikemindedinoneaspect.Youknowyoucanhavethatkindofrelationshiponthatlevel.Andwe'reinaworldlikeyoumentioned,withreallyhighratesofmedicationformentalillnessandreally,actuallyterribleinfantandmaternalmortalityrates,andrisingratesofautoimmunediseaseandallthesehugeproblems.AndIlovethatyourmissionisverymuchoneofhope.So,towrapup,I'dloveforyoujustspeaktowhatyourmessageofhopeandencouragementisforwomenandkindofwhatyourcoreencouragementorrecommendationswouldbe.Kelly:Yeah,well,youknow,I'dlovetojustbrieflymentionIthink,averyimportantstudy.Iactuallyjustpublishedablogonalcoholismthatis,Gosh,Imean,Ijustcan'tshutmymouthup.Ikeeplikepokingthebear.Andit'sbeenextremelycontroversiallyreceived.Iwasn'tevenawarethatyouknow,peoplewouldtakesuchissuewithmyperspectiveonit.Butyouknow,sortofonethingIwantedpeopletoatleastconsiderbecauseitwasveryinterestingtome,right?Becausealcoholism,forexample,islikeatotalexampleofgeneticdeterminism.Wethinkit'sgeneticdisease.Youhaveitforlifeandyouronlyoptionistoavoidalcoholforever,right?Sothealcoholisgiventhispoweroveryou,infact,that'sthefirstofthe12steps,isthatyou'repowerless.Andobviously,youcanhearthatit'sathreadthroughoutallofmycultivatedperspectivesthatactuallyyou'reneverpowerlessandifyoutakeradicalresponsibilitytounderstandyourrelationshiptothesedifferentelementsofyourlife.Whereyouarewounded,whereyouhavenotbeenyouknow,seen,howitisthatyou'renotfullyexpressedyouknow?Wherearetheplaceisinyourlifethatareoutofbalance?Whatareyourunningfrom?Youknow,whenyoustarttolookatthosebigquestionswhichIfeelit'saloteasiertodowhenyourbodyisyouknow,healed.Sothat'swhyIliketoforegroundyouknow,sortofphysicalhealing.Butthere'sthisstudyfromthefromthe'70sbythisguy,BruceAlexander,andit'scalledTheRatParkExperiment.AndIdon'tknowifyou'veheardofit.Butbasically,inanutshell,heputsaratinacagebyitself.Givesitcocaineorwater.Andwhatwillhappenistheratwilldrinkthecocaineanddrinkit,drinkit,drinkit,untilitdies.Okaywell,that'sobvious,right?Becausecocaineisadangerousaddictivesubstance,andobviouslyitgotitschemicalhooksintheratandtherathasnochoicebuttosubmituntilitdies,right?It's


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dangerous.Sowhatheultimatelyfoundoutwasthatyouknow,there'ssomethingfishyaboutthecontext,right?Likethat'snotreallifeforthatrat.Andsowhatifweputtheratinwhathecalled"Ratheaven"orlike"aratpark"whereithastoysinthere,littlewheel,andotherratstohavesexwith,andsocializewith,andit'sacommunityofrats.Andthenyouofferthatratcocaineorwater.Turnsouttheydon'ttouchthecocaine.That'sinteresting.Okay,sowhatifyouaddictaratinisolationandthenyouputitintoaratpark.Obviously,it'sgoingtochoosetoyouknow,notdetoxvoluntarily.Andinfact,that'sexactlywhattheychosetodo.Theydetoxvoluntarily,nevertouchedagain.Sothesuggestionthereisthatwhatwearedescribingasachemicalprocessandadisease-basedyouknow,sortofexperience,mayactuallyhavealotmoretodowithsomeofthefundamentalelementsofourhumanityinthiscasethathavefallenaway.Andthatifaratneedsacommunitythatbadly,oddsarethatwedotoo.Andsoinourmodularhomesyouknow,inourboxliving,somethingisboundtofeelreallywrong.Andweareboundtowanttoself-medicatethatfelt"wrongness"inmyriadways.Youknow,whetherit'scompulsivegamblingoractionablemedications.SowhatI'dliketosuggestisexactlywhatyou'reintuiting.Whichisfirsttosay,"It'sprobablyokaythatIfeelawrongness."Likesomethingfeelslikehurtsdeepinsideme.Andthat'sprobablyokay,andmaybeit'satotallynaturalresponsetowhat'sgoingononthisplanettoday,andtothewayswe'veevolvedsocio-culturallyyouknow,asaspecies.Andthen,thenextstepisistojustbegintoopenyourselftotheseconnections,right?Totheprospectthattherearepeopleouttherewhothinklikeyou,whoareinterestedinlookingatlifethroughthelensthatyoudo.AndwhatIfindisthattheyjustsortofgetmagnetizedtowardsus.Youknow,thatwemaketheseconnections,eventhisconversation.Youknow,wemaketheseconnectionswithpeoplewhoseelifethewaywedo,andithelpsustofeelmore"okay"youknow.AndIalsowouldarguethatembracingthestruggle,andsuffering,andpain,that'sapartoflife.Ifyouactuallyallowyourselftomovethroughthosewavesoflife,thathelpsyouthentobethereforotherpeoplewhoareinyouknow,those"birthcanal"sotospeak,whenyou'renot.Sothathelpsre-loomthefabricofourconnection,right?Whenyoucandeeplyempathicallyrelatetosomeoneandsay,"youknowwhat?Ihavesobeenthere,anditgetsbetter.Youknow,justridethewave,itgetsbetter."Whenyoucansaythatfromanauthenticexperience,livedexperience,thathelpstorebuildthisfabricofempathythatwe'vebeguntobreakdowninthiseverymanoreverywomanforthemselveskindofcapitalisticculture.Solisten,I'mwithyou.Ihaven'tfoundthatcommunity.Ibecamenearobsessedwithit.Youknow,Iwaslike,"WherecanIdragmykids?Ineedtofindyouknow,anintentionalcommunitywherepeoplethinkthewayIdo,andeatthewayIdo,andcareaboutthethingsIdo."Andyouknow,Idon'tknowthatI'veeverheardofit'sreallybeingoutthere,butperhapsinthemeantimewejustyouknow,worktoholdthisspaceonourown,sothatwecancallthesekindsofconnectionsintoourlives,evenifthey'rethey'revirtual.YouknowIhavetothinkthat'sapartofit.Andthatlivingintheworldwithpeoplewhodon'tagreewithyou,livingintheworldofpeoplewhothinkyou'recrazyandjudgeyourchoicesisapartofyouknow,theprocess.It'sapartofconfirmingonsomelevelthatyoudofeelyoutrustyourselfeveninthefaceofyouknow,sortofadversityorcriticismorjudgment.Butit'sdefinitelyaworkinprogress.It'swhyIbecameyouknow,akundaliniyogateacherbecausethere'sacommunitythere.Andit'ssofunny...andI'llstoptalkinginasecondbutitissofunnybecausethefirstyearIwenttothisstudiodowntowninNewYork,theylikegavemealittlecard.Theygaveeveryonelikealittlecardanditjustsaid...itwaslikeIdon'tknow,agotacouponorsomethinginitforthelittlestore.Andinthecarditsaid,"Thankyou


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forbeingapartofourcommunity."AndIliterallystartedcryingwhenIreadthisstupidgenericcard.Becausethat'showbigthiswoundisforme.Youknow,that'showisolatedIhavefeltIguess,youknow,foraslongasIhave.Andsoitdoesn'ttakemuchtobegintofeelyouknow,I'vebeeninaroomwith50women,andittakesuslike10minutesyouknow,tobegintofeelhealedonsomelevel.Youknow,inthisway.Butit'saveryrealissue,andsometimesjustbeingawareofitbeginstheprocessoftransformingit.Katie:Ithinkyou'resoright.Andsomaybe,likewe'llhavetojustbuildthiscommunitybecauseIhaven'tfounditeither.ButIthinkyou'rerightthateveninjustsmallthings...likewehavegirlsherewhereabunchofmomswillgettogetherandevenjustacouplehourslikethatitisveryhealing.Andlikeyoufeelthisbondandthisenergyafterthatthatyoudon'tnormallyhave.Somaybethat'sjusttheanswerintheshortterm.ButwhatIlovesomuchaboutyourapproachisthatwheneverybodyelseyouknow,issaying,howtoescapefromthesymptomsandhowtoavoidallthepain,likeyou'reactuallyencouragingpeopletolikeleaninandtounderstandwhy,andtoletthathelpyoutowardsdeeperrelationshipsanddeeperunderstanding,andtogettothe"why."BecauseIthinkmaybethat'sthemissinglinktooisthatit'seasytoknowwhattodoandwhattoeatbutifyoudon'thavethat"why"andlikeloveforyourselfandthosearoundyou,thenyou'renotgonnastickwithit.Anddoingthatyou'realsobecomingagreatexampleforyourchildren.SoIlovethatthat'syourmissionsomuch.Kelly:Iappreciatethatandthatandyouhitthenailontheheadthat'sexactlyit.Katie:Awesome.IwannamakesurepeoplecanfindyoubecauseI'msuretherearealotofpeoplewhoaregonnawannaconnectwithyousoI’lllinktoeverythingintheshownotesbutwherecanpeoplefindyouonline?Kelly:Iamjustkellybroganmd.comanddomybesttoyouknowputoutsomescientificallyvettedbutpotentiallycontroversialmaterialonaregularbasis.Andwe'reintheprocessofputtingmybook,"AMindofYourOwn"whichisabookIpublishedlastyearforfree,inallpartsonmywebsite.Inthemeantime,wehaveafreeE-Bookthatyoumentionedearlier.Andallofthelevelsofresourcesarethere.Youknow,ifthisresonateswithyou,we'vegotyou.Youknow,it'stotallypossibleandI'mdoingmybesttodocumentoutcomessothatyoucanhearfromwomenotherthanme,youknow,whatkindsofradicalhealingtransformationsarereallypossible.Katie:Iloveit,andagain,allthoselinkswillbeintheshownotes.Ithinkpeoplewilllandonyourblogbutwannareadprettymucheverythingthat'swhatIdid.ButIappreciatesomuchtheworkthatyou'redoingandtheresearchyou'redoing,andallthearticlesthatyou'resharing,andespeciallyyourtimeandbeinghere.Thishasbeenanawesomeinterview,oneofmyfavorite.AndIhopemaybewe'llhavearoundtwooneday.Kelly:Wonderful,it'ssuchanhonor.ThankssomuchKatie.Katie:Thankyou,andthankstoallofyouforlistening,andI'llseeyounexttimeonTheHealthyMomsPodcast.

Ifyou'reenjoyingtheseinterviews,wouldyoupleasetaketwominutestoleavearatingorreviewoniTunesforme?Doingthishelpsmorepeopletofindthepodcast,whichmeansevenmoremomsandfamiliescouldbenefitfromtheinformation.Ireallyappreciateyourtime,andthanksasalwaysforlistening.

90- A Mind Of Your Own- Tackling Mental Illness and Fixing ...Kettle and Fire solves that problem...

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Transcript of 90- A Mind Of Your Own- Tackling Mental Illness and Fixing ...Kettle and Fire solves that problem...