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7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
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Appendix I
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Exhibit 1
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GEORGE THOMAS GILLETT 05/17/2011
ARIZONA REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (602)
www. Phoenix, AZ
2
INDEX TO EXAMINATIONS
WITNESS PAGE
GEORGE GILLETT
Examination by Mr. Castor 10Examination by Mr. Sherman 55Examination by Mr. Lindsay 70Further Examination by Mr. Sherman 90Further Examination by Mr. Lindsay 92Examination by Mr. Foster 96Further Examination by Mr. Castor 132Examination by Mr. Kerner 140Further Examination by Mr. Lindsay 141Further Examination by Mr. Sherman 153Further Examination by Mr. Castor 178Further Examination by Mr. Foster 194Further Examination by Mr. Castor 196Further Examination by Mr. Foster 202Further Examination by Mr. Lindsay 209
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GEORGE THOMAS GILLETT 05/17/2011
ARIZONA REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (602)
www. Phoenix, AZ
12
this document attached outlined a conference call that
t he D AG 's o ff ic e r eq ue st ed w it h a ll t he a ge nc y h ea ds ,
M r. M ue ll er f ro m t he F BI , M s. L eo na rd f ro m D EA ,
M r. M el so n f ro m A TF , a nd i t s ch ed ul ed a c on fe re nc e c al l
to discuss the specifics.
Q. And was t hat part of the overall P roject
Gunrunner?
A. A TF 's P ro je ct G un ru nn er w as d ir ec tl y af fe ct ed b y
that proposed strategy, yes, sir.
Q. Do y ou k now i f the U .S. A ttorney's O ffice,
District of Arizona, was involved in that communication?
A. Yes, sir. Also requested to be included in that
c on fe re nc e c al l w as M r. B ur ke , B -u -r -k -e , w ho w as t he
U .S . A tt or ne y f or t he D is tr ic t o f A ri zo na .
Q. Was i t y our u nderstanding t hat a t t hat t ime D OJ
w as l oo ki ng to A TF to f ocu s o n c ar te ls a nd m ore o f a n
organized crime level rather than straw purchasers?
A. Yes, sir. The content of that plan specifically
a dd re ss ed w an ti ng A TF n ot t o f oc us o n s tr aw p ur ch as er s,
b ut t o f oc us o n c ar te ls a nd l ar ge r c om pl ex c on sp ir ac y
type investigations.
Q. How d id t hat i nitiative t rickle d own t o t he
a ge nt s i n t he P ho en ix f ie ld o ff ic e?
A. Well, t o kind o f paint t he p icture, t here w as
t he I G r ep or ts t ha t a dd re ss ed t he i ne ff ec ti ve n at ur e o f
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GEORGE THOMAS GILLETT 05/17/2011
ARIZONA REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (602)
www. Phoenix, AZ
13
s tr aw p ur ch as er s. T he d ru g e nf or ce me nt f or t he o ff ic e
h er e i n P ho en ix w as l oo ki ng t o s ta nd u p a n o rg an iz ed
crime drug enforcement task force strike force, OCDETF.
A nd t he s pe ci al a ge nt i n c ha rg e o f t he D EA o ff ic e w as
a sk in g f or A TF 's p ar ti ci pa ti on i n t hi s j oi nt
multi-agency strike force.
A TF h er e w as n ot a bl e t o g et a ny s tr aw p ur ch as e
p ro se cu ti on s a t t he t im e b ec au se o f a n i nt er pr et at io n o f
t he l aw b y t he U .S . A tt or ne y' s O ff ic e h er e i n t he
D is tr ic t o f A ri zo na . S o t hi s s tr at eg y i n O ct ob er 2 00 9
h an de d d ow n b y t he D AG 's o ff ic e, a ct ua ll y f ro m t he
P ho en ix p er sp ec ti ve , w as w el l t im ed a nd p ro vi de d u s w it h
d ir ec ti on o n h ow t o p ro ce ed i n t he se t yp es o f f ir ea rm s
trafficking investigations.
Q. And h ow l ong w ere y ou i n Phoenix a t this t ime a s
o f O ct ob er ' 09 a s t he A SA C?
A. I a rrived i n early J une o f '08, s o that w ould
have been approximately 16 months.
Q. A nd w as i t y ou r ex pe ri en ce t ha t the p ro se cu ti on
o f s tr aw p ur ch as er s w as a c ha ll en ge ?
A. In the best terms. And the U.S. Attorney's
O ff ic e h ad i ss ue w it h, i n t he ir o pi ni on , i n p ro se cu ti ng
s tr aw p ur ch as er s. I t w as t he U .S . A tt or ne y' s O ff ic e' s
p os it io n t ha t t he y n ee de d t he g un s f or p ro se cu ti on s i n
t he c ou rt ro om . A nd b ec au se t he g un s, a m aj or it y o f t he
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GEORGE THOMAS GILLETT 05/17/2011
ARIZONA REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (602)
www. Phoenix, AZ
14
t im e, h ad b ee n r ec ov er ed i n M ex ic o, t he U .S . A tt or ne y' s
O ff ic e f el t t he y c ou ld n' t p ro se cu te t he s tr aw
p ur ch as er s, a nd r ef er re d t o i t a s a c or pu s i ss ue w it h
r eg ar d t o t he s ta tu te , t he f ed er al s ta tu te . S o t he re
were virtually no straw purchase prosecutions.
Q. W as th er e an y or ga ni ze d co mm un ic at io n be tw ee n
t he U .S . A tt or ne y' s O ff ic e a nd A TF 's P ho en ix f ie ld
o ff ic e a bo ut t hi s p ro bl em o r q ue st io n?
A. Yes, sir, there was. In fact, there was a
n um be r o f m ee ti ng s h el d b et we en A SA C N ee dl es
N-e-e-d-l-e-s, ATF's counsel in Phoenix, Tom Karmgard,
K-a-r-m-g-a-r-d, and the leadership at the
U .S . A tt or ne y' s O ff ic e h er e i n P ho en ix .
Q. W as M r. N ew el l in vo lve d in t ho se c onv er sa ti on s?
A. I believe he was, yes, sir.
Q. But you were not?
A. I d on 't r ec all b ein g inv ol ve d in t ho se m ee tin gs
s pe ci fi ca ll y a t t he t im e. U nt il O ct ob er 1 st , t he o nl y
e nf or ce me nt g ro up t ha t I o ve rs aw i n P ho en ix w as t he
i nt el li ge nc e g ro up , w hi ch w as n ot i nv ol ve d i n
p ro se cu ti on s. S o I c ov er ed t he e nf or ce me nt g ro up s i n
t he s ou th er n h al f o f A ri zo na , i n T uc so n, a s w el l a s t he
s ou th er n h al f o f N ew M ex ic o.
Q. I see. Until you learned about this meeting
f ro m M r. N ee dl es o r f ro m M r. N ew el l?
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GEORGE THOMAS GILLETT 05/17/2011
ARIZONA REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (602)
www. Phoenix, AZ
15
A. W e wo ul d ha ve m eet in gs , we b ei ng M r. N ee dl es ,
M r. N ew el l a nd I , r eg ul ar ly r eg ar d t o t hi s i ss ue , a s
w el l a s M r. K ar mg ar d, a nd w e d is ag re ed w it h t he p os it io n
o f t he U .S . A tt or ne y' s O ff ic e. B ut i t w as s om et hi ng
t ha t M r. N ew el l a nd M r. B ur ke w er e w or ki ng o ut , a s w el l
a s M r. N ee dl es a nd M r. K ar mg ar d.
Q. And o n Mr. B urke's s ide, w ho e lse w as i nvolved
i n t ho se d is cu ss io ns , t o y o u r k n o wl ed ge ? W as E mo ry
H ur le y, f or e xa mp le ? W e u nd er st an d h e i s t he A US A t ha t
has responsibility for firearms.
A. I believe Mr. Hurley was involved, yes. I am
n ot s ur e M r . C un ni ng ha m w a s i nv ol ve d a t t ha t p oi nt . I
r ea ll y d on 't r ec al l w ho f ro m t he ir o ff ic e w as
specifically involved.
Q. Do you know if this d ialogue w ith the
U .S . A tt or ne y' s O ff ic e l ed t o a d if fe re nt a pp ro ac h i n
t he A TF P ho en ix f ie ld o ff ic e?
A. Yes, sir, it did. ATF was making some efforts
t o h av e A TF s pe ci al a ge nt s t ra ve l i nt o M ex ic o o r A TF
a ss is ta nt a tt ac h s i n M ex ic o t o t ra ve l t o s ce ne s, c ri me
scenes where firearms were recovered, examine the
f ir ea rm s, a nd p la ce t he ms el ve s i n a p os it io n t o t ra ve l
t o A ri zo na t o t es ti fy i n t he s tr aw p ur ch as e c as es .
T ha t w as d if fi cu lt a t b es t c oo rd in at in g w it h t he
g ov er nm en t o f M ex ic o. T he s ys te m, t he j ud ic ia l s ys te m
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GEORGE THOMAS GILLETT 05/17/2011
ARIZONA REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (602)
www. Phoenix, AZ
16
i n M ex ic o i s d if fe re nt t ha n t he U ni te d S ta te s. T he
m il it ar y i s i nv ol ve d i n s ei zi ng f ir ea rm s. A nd t he
firearms are almost immediately removed to military
b as es . S o a ct ua ll y g et ti ng t o s c e ne s a nd e xa mi ni ng
firearms, or getting onto military installations in
M ex ic o w as v er y, v er y t ed io us , a nd a d el ic at e s it ua ti on .
Q. So t he s trategy f or t he A TF a gents h ere i n
P ho en ix t he n c ha ng ed a t s om e p oi nt a ft er t ho se
discussions with the U.S. Attorney's Office?
A. Yes, sir. And with all these issues coming to a
h ea d, t he r ep or ts a nd t he s tr at eg y f ro m J us ti ce , A TF - -
Q. And the corpus issue?
A. - - th e co rp us i ss ue , the l ack o f pr os ec ut io ns ,
t he s tr aw p ur ch as er s, t he f oc us h er e i n P ho en ix a s w el l
a s a cr os s t he c ou nt ry a s f ar a s I a m c on ce rn ed b ec am e t o
l oo k a t t he se c ar te ls a s a c on sp ir ac y, a nd t ry in g t o g o
a ft er t he s ho t c al le rs , i f y ou w il l, w it hi n t he c ar te l,
t he u pp er e ch el on , i ns te ad o f g oi ng a ft er t he s tr aw
purchasers.
Q. As I u nderstand i t, i n the l atter h alf o f '09,
s om e o f t he s pe ci al a ge nt s i n y ou r o ff ic e, s uc h a s H op e
MacAllister, began collecting information from some of
t he a re a F FL s a bo ut s us pe ct ed l ar ge b ul k p ur ch as es f ro m
suspicious persons.
A. Yes, sir. On October 1st of 2009, ATF
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GEORGE THOMAS GILLETT 05/17/2011
ARIZONA REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (602)
www. Phoenix, AZ
35
S o t he o th er t hi ng t ha t I g ue ss I w il l s ay w it h
r eg ar d t o O ct ob er i s I t ra ns it io ne d t he o ve rs ig ht a s t he
A SA C o f t hi s i nv es ti ga ti on t o A SA C N ee dl es i n m id A pr il .
S o a s f ar a s t he d ev el op me nt s b et we en t he n a nd O ct ob er ,
I b el ie ve I w as j us t f or wa rd ed t hi s b ri ef in g p ap er ,
b ec au se M r. N ee dl es w as u na va il ab le a t t ha t t im e.
Q. So y ou d on't k now w hether t here w as a change i n
s tr at eg y t o n ot n ec es sa ri ly s lo w d ow n t he f ir ea rm s, l ik e
t he s tr at eg y a pp ea re d t o b e i n J an ua ry ?
A. In O ctober I a m not sure i f there w as, b ut I am
n ot a wa re t ha t t he s tr at eg y e ve r c ha ng ed s ig ni fi ca nt ly
a t a ny p oi nt d ur in g t he i nv es ti ga ti on .
Q. Do y ou k now i f t he a ttempt t o s low t he p urchases
o f g un s w or ke d?
A. I believe it worked, yes, sir.
Q. So t he s trategies t hat w ere p ut i n place i n
J an ua ry o r a t l ea st r ef er en ce d i n t he O CD ET F p ap er , y ou
think they were successful?
A. Yes, sir, because , the owner of ,
w ou ld t el l t he se s tr aw p ur ch as er s w he n t he s tr aw
p ur ch as er s w ou ld c al l t he s to re t ha t h is s hi pm en t w as n' t
c om in g i n f or d ay s a he ad o f t im e, w he n i n f ac t h e w ou ld
h av e t hem in h is s tor e. S o h e w oul d ke ep t he s tr aw
p ur ch as er s o n t he h oo k a nd s ay i t w il l j us t b e a c ou pl e
m or e d ay s, I e xp ec t t he m t om or ro w. T ha t n ex t d ay w ou ld
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GEORGE THOMAS GILLETT 05/17/2011
ARIZONA REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (602)
www. Phoenix, AZ
41
A. Okay. But if he called up in the end of
A pr il h e d id n' t s pe ak t o m e, b ec au se I w as o ff f ro m
A pr il 1 6t h. S o a f te r A p ri l 1 6 th - - f r om A pr il 1 6t h
u nt il J un e 2 nd I w as o ut of t he of fi ce. A nd a ft er t ha t
I n o l o ng er h ad o ve rs ig ht o f t h e i nv es ti ga ti on . S o i f
M r. G il s ta te d t ha t h e c al le d t he e nd o f A pr il a nd s po ke
t o m e a nd e xp re ss ed c on ce rn s, t ha t w ou ld b e i na cc ur at e,
b ec au se I w as n' t i n t he o ff ic e.
Q. Fair enough. I was representing to you it is my
r ec ol le ct io n h e s ai d i t w as M ar ch o r A pr il .
A. Okay.
Q. So... But do you remember generally any other
i ss ue s b ei ng r ai se d b y t he A TF f ol ks i n M ex ic o?
A. I don't. Like I said, the Mexico folks
g en er al ly w er en 't c om in g t o t al k t o m e. T he y w er e
t al ki ng t o M r. N ew el l.
Q. Okay. If you flip over to tab 20.
A. Yes, sir, I have it in front of me.
Q. It i s an e -mail b etween D ave V oth a nd B rian
K en ri ck , w ho w as a n A TF l aw ye r i n R oc kf or d, I ll in oi s.
A. Right, yes, sir.
Q. As I understand t he p rocess f or g oing u p on a
w ir e, c or re ct m e if I am w ro ng , b ut A TF is go in g to go
u p o n a w ir e, a c as e a ge nt w ou ld w ork w ith th e
U .S . A tt or ne y t o p ut t og et he r t he a pp li ca ti on ?
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Exhibit 5
Exhibit 5
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Exhibit 6
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Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
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Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
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Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
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Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
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Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
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Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
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Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
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Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
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Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
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Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
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Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
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Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
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Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
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Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
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Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
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Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
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Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
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7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
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Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
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7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
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Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
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7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
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Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
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Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
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Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
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Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
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7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
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Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
79/474
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Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
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7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
80/474
291
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
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7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
81/474
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Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
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7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
82/474
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Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
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7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
83/474
294
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
84/474
295
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
85/474
296
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
86/474
297
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
87/474
Exhibit 7
Exhibit 7
298
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
88/474
299
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
89/474
Exhibit 8
Exhibit 8
300
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
90/474
301
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
91/474
Exhibit 9
Exhibit 9
302
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
92/474
303
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
93/474
HOGR WR 003370
304
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
94/474
305
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
95/474
Exhibit 10
Exhibit 10
306
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
96/474
307
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
97/474
Exhibit 11
Exhibit 11
308
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
98/474
309
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
99/474
Exhibit 12
Exhibit 12
310
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
100/474
311
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
101/474
Exhibit 13
Exhibit 13
312
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
102/474
313
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
103/474
Exhibit 14
Exhibit 14
314
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
104/474
315
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
105/474
Exhibit 15
Exhibit 15
316
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
106/474
317
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
107/474
318
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
108/474
319
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
109/474
320
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
110/474
Exhibit 16
Exhibit 16
321
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
111/474
322
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
112/474
323
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
113/474
324
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
114/474
325
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
115/474
326
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
116/474
327
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
117/474
328
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
118/474
329
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
119/474
330
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
120/474
331
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
121/474
332
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
122/474
333
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
123/474
334
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
124/474
335
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
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7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
125/474
336
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
126/474
Exhibit 17
Exhibit 17
337
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
127/474
338
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
128/474
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
129/474
340
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
130/474
341
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
131/474
342
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
132/474
343
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
133/474
344
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
134/474
345
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
135/474
346
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
136/474
347
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
137/474
348
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
138/474
349
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
139/474
350
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
140/474
351
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
141/474
352
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
142/474
Exhibit 19
Exhibit 19
353
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
143/474
354
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
144/474
355
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
145/474
356
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
146/474
Exhibit 20
Exhibit 20
357
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
147/474
358
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
148/474
Exhibit 21
Exhibit 21
359
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
149/474
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
150/474
Exhibit 22
Exhibit 22
361
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
151/474
362
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
152/474
Exhibit 23
Exhibit 23
363
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
153/474
364
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
154/474
Exhibit 24
Exhibit 24
365
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
155/474
366
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
156/474
Exhibit 25
Exhibit 25
367
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
157/474
368
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
158/474
369
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
159/474
370
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
160/474
Exhibit 26
Exhibit 26
371
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
161/474
HOGR ATF - 002348
372
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
162/474
373
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
163/474
374
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
164/474
HOGR ATF - 002351
375
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
165/474
Exhibit 27
Exhibit 27
376
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
166/474
377
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
167/474
Exhibit 28
Exhibit 28
378
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
168/474
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
169/474
Exhibit 29
Exhibit 29
380
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
170/474
HOGR ATF - 001983
381
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
171/474
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
172/474
HOGR ATF - 001985
383
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
173/474
Exhibit 30
Exhibit 30
384
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
174/474
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
175/474
Exhibit 31
Exhibit 31
386
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
176/474
387
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
177/474
Exhibit 32
Exhibit 32
388
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
178/474
389
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
179/474
390
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
180/474
Exhibit 33
Exhibit 33
391
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
181/474
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
182/474
393
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
183/474
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
184/474
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
185/474
396
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
186/474
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
187/474
Exhibit 34
Exhibit 34
398
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
188/474
HOGR ATF - 002277
399
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
189/474
HOGR ATF - 002278
400
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
190/474
Exhibit 35
Exhibit 35
401
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
191/474
402
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
192/474
HOGR ATF 000884
403
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
193/474
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
194/474
405
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
195/474
Exhibit 37
Exhibit 37
406
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
196/474
407
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
197/474
408
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
198/474
Exhibit 38
Exhibit 38
409
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
199/474
410
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
200/474
411
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
201/474
412
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
202/474
413
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
203/474
Exhibit 39
Exhibit 39
414
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
-
7/31/2019 7 31 12 FF Part I FINAL Appendix I 1 of 31
204/474
415
Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation Appendix I: Exhibits
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Exhibit 47
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HOGR ATF - 001189
469
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U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
HOUSE COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND
GOVERNMENT REFORM
IN THE MATTER OF: ))
ATF'S PROJECT GUNRUNNER AND )OPERATION FAST AND FURIOUS. )
)
I N TE R VI E W O F
Phoenix, ArizonaMay 18, 2011
AR IZ ON A RE PO RT IN G SE RV IC E, IN C.Court Reporting
P 1
By:Prepared for: ter
Certificate No. 50658MR. STEPHEN CASTORAttorney at Law
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INDEX TO EXAMINATIONS
WITNESS PAGE
Examination by Mr. Castor 59Examination by Mr. Foster 103Further Examination by Mr. Castor 108Further Examination by Mr. Foster 124Further Examination by Mr. Castor 132
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G unr un ne r, we , I , a s a n o wn er o f t he g un s to re a nd a n
F FL d ea le r, h av e a lw ay s c oo pe ra te d a nd i nf or me d t he
P ho en ix f ie ld o ff ic e o f t he B ur ea u o f A lc oh ol , T ob ac co ,
Firearms, and Explosives of any sales involving either
l ar ge n um be rs o f m il it ar y t yp e g ra y w ea po ns o r h an dg un s,
a ny th in g o f t hi s n at ur e. A nd t hi s i s a bo ve a nd b ey on d.
We have always cooperated.
I n f ac t, I m ade r efe re nce to t hi s t his y ear in a
s ta te me nt d at ed F eb ru ar y 1 st , w hi ch a pp li es t o t ho se
i nd iv id ua ls I f ee l t ha t d o u ph ol d t he l aw a nd d on 't u se
i t a s a p ol it ic al h id de n a ge nd a. B ut t ha t' s b es id e t he
point.
T o c on ti nu e, t he se p ur ch as es , o nc e I w as
n ot if ie d b y H op e M ac Al li st er d ir ec tl y, s he a sk ed m e t o
notify her via cell number, which is (602) . I
k no w i t by h ea rt . I as ke d h er a t t ha t t ime wh y, wh at i s
up. Her answer to me is well, you can expect to see an
i nc re as e o f p ur ch as es o f A K- 47 t yp e r if le s. T hi s, o f
c ou rs e, i s n o t a s ur pri se . W e d o c ar ry t he m a s p ar t o f
o ur i nve nt or y, a s a l ot o f o th er s to re s d o. W he n I sa y
c ar ry , I d on 't s to ck n or ma ll y m or e t ha n, s ay , s ix o r
e ig ht i n a ny g iv en t im e n or ma ll y.
What occurred immediately, within five days,
f ou r t o f iv e d ay s, o f m y c on ve rs at io n w it h A ge nt
M ac Al li st er i n w hi ch s he i s g iv in g m e a h ea ds -u p t o
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G et ti ng b ac k t o i t, A ge nt M ac Al li st er n or a ny
other agent identified the cash, recorded serial
n um be rs , d i d n' t p ho to gr ap h i t. N o d r u g s n i ff in g d og w as
b ro ug ht i n b y t he P ho en ix P ol ic e D ep ar tm en t, w hi ch t he y
d o, b y t he w ay , m ai nt ai n a l og bo ok o f w he n t ho se d og s
a re u se d. T ha t d i dn 't h ap pe n u nt il m uc h l at er i n t he
d ec li ni ng m on th s o f 2 01 0, i n w hi ch I w as i ns tr uc te d
personally by Agent MacAllister and representatives from
A TF t o s et t hi s c as h as id e i n a pl as ti c b ag in w hi ch t he
n ar co ti cs d og s c ou ld t ak e a n a ss es sm en t o f i t t o
d et er mi ne i f t he re w er e n ar co ti cs s om eh ow o n t he m on ey .
Now, getting back to, say, approximately
O ct ob er , N ov em be r o f 2 00 9, I h ad m y m ee ti ng , o nc e a ga in
a t m y r eq ue st , w ha t I b el ie ve w as g oi ng t o b e D av id V ot h
a nd H op e M ac Al li st er . E mo ry H ur le y i nt ro du ce d h im se lf .
H e w as i nt ro du ce d t o m e, r at he r, b y t he t wo A TF a ge nt s.
A nd i n m y o ff ic e, I v oi ce d m y c on ce rn s o ve r s ev er al
s ub je ct s, o ne o f w hi ch p ri ma ri ly w as t he a mo un t o f
w ea po ns t ha t w er e b ei ng p ur ch as ed a t m y s to re .
N ow , i t i s i mp or ta nt t o n ot e t ha t I h ad n ev er
b ef or e s ee n a n i ns ta nc e i n m y 2 0 y ea rs o f d oi ng b us in es s
w he re w e w ou ld s ee p ur ch as es g o f ro m, s ay , z er o t o 5 0
q ui te l it er al ly o ve rn ig ht , w it hi n a m at te r o f d ay s b ei ng
n ot if ie d b y A TF . A nd p ar ti cu la rl y w it h t he c as h
i nv ol ve d a t t hi s j un ct ur e, I e xp re ss ed m y c on ce rn t o
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w ha t I b el ie ve w as t he h ea d o f t he m ee ti ng , w hi ch w ou ld
b e E m o ry H ur le y. H e' s t h e A s s is ta nt U ni te d S t a te s
A tt or ne y, w ho w as a ls o i de nt if ie d t o m e b y t he a ge nt s a s
t he p ro se cu ti ng a tt or ne y o f t he se c as es t he y w er e
b eg in ni ng t o g et i nt o.
E mo ry H ur le y b eg an i n a n e xc ul pa to ry m an ne r
s ay in g t ow ar ds m e t ha t m y h el p h as b ee n d em on st ra ti ve
a nd b ey on d b el ie f t ha t I w ou ld h el p t he m i n a j us t
c au se . D em on st ra ti ve w as t he e xa ct t er m A ss is ta nt
U .S . A tt or ne y H ur le y u se d. I d ec id ed t o s im pl y a sk w ha t
w as o n m y m in d, a nd t ha t i s h ow l on g i s t hi s c as e g oi ng
t o c on ti nu e; n um be r t wo , d o I s ti ll k ee p b ri ng in g t he se
weapons into my store, because, number three, apparently
w or d i s g et ti ng o ut o n t he s tr ee t f ro m y ou r t ar ge ts t ha t
a ll o f a su dd en n ow I a m a tt rac ti ng a lo t of o the r
i nd iv id ua l b uy er s r es pe ct n ot j us t t he t ar ge ts b ut I a m
g et ti ng a l ot o f p er ip he ra l a ct iv it y.
I n o th er w or ds , w e h av e f em al es c om in g i n;
C au ca si an ; H is pa ni c; B la ck , A fr ic an A me ri ca n. I t r ea ll y
d id n' t m at te r. E ve ry bo dy s ee me d t o b e c om in g i n a nd
s ta rt in g t o p ur ch as e o ne , t wo , t hr ee . B ut t he i ni ti al
t ar ge ts t ha t A TF w as f oc us ed o n a t t ha t t im e w ou ld b e
J ac ob C ha mb er s a n d S ea n S te wa rt . T he y f o c us ed t he ir
attention primarily on them.
W ha t I f ou nd s tr an ge w as t ha t t he y w ou ld u se
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m on ey , t he y w ou ld c om e r ig ht i n a nd w it ho ut a c ar e i n
t he w or ld m ak e p ur ch as es a s i f n ob od y w as w at ch in g t he m.
I t w as j us t u nc an ny. I d id n' t u nd ers ta nd i t. It m ad e
n o s ens e. I h av e n ev er s ee n t hi s b efo re . A nd t rus t m e,
I a m q ui te l it er al ly f am il ia r, b ei ng 2 0 y ea rs i n t hi s
b us in es s, o f h o w t he se t hi ng s g o. T hi s f ol lo we d n ot a
p re di ct ab le o rd in ar y p at te rn w ha ts oe ve r. A nd I v oi ce d
t he se c on ce rn s t o a ll t hr ee o f t he i nd iv id ua ls a t t ha t
D ec em be r 1 7t h m ee ti ng i n 2 00 9.
I w as i ns tr uc te d i n t ha t m ee ti ng i n n o u nc er ta in
t er ms b y t he a ge nt s a nd t he A ss is ta nt U ni te d S ta te s
A tt or ne y h im se lf t o c on ti nu e t o s to ck t he se w ea po ns ,
s ec on d, t o k ee p w or ki ng a nd i nf or m t he P ho en ix f ie ld
o ff ic e a nd t he ir a ge nt s a nd k ee p t he m a pp ri se d o f a ll
d ev el op me nt s w it h r eg ar d t o t he se t yp es o f p ur ch as es .
N ow , w ha t y ou m us t u nd er st an d, I n ev er s us pe ct ed
a t t h at po in t t ha t th er e w a s a p ro ble m wi th t hi s. I
t ru st ed A TF , a s I a lw ay s h av e. T he y a re m y r eg ul at or y
a ge nc y w ho l ic en se s m e, a ud it s m e, o ve rs ee s m e. A nd
t hes e a re f ed er al a ge nt s. A nd a ls o t ha t t hi s i s a
United States Assistant U.S. Attorney here in Phoenix.
S o I h ad n o r ea so n t o d ou bt o r s us pe ct a ny th in g i n
c om pa ri so n to w hat w e n o w k now . S o I w en t al on g w i th
this.
A nd a ll t he w ay t hr ou gh t hi s g oi ng i nt o y ea r
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Q. The ATF agents?
A. That is c orrect, Agent D odson b eing o ne o f t hem
that I experienced myself.
Q. Who f rom A TF f irst i nvited y ou t o have a camera
p ut i n t he s to re ?
A. Hope MacAllister.
Q. And y ou b elieve t hat h appened i n l ate s pring o f
2010?
A. Yes.
Q. And d id s he h ave t o make a s ales p itch t o you o n
that?
A. No. She emphasized the importance of my
c oo pe ra ti on , t ha t i t w as l ea di ng t o s o m an y d if fe re nt
a re as , t ha t m y h el p w as s o, y ou k no w, m on um en ta l t ha t i t
w ou ld b e s o h el pf ul i f t he y w er e a bl e t o d o t ha t, w hi ch
l ed m e t o b el ie ve t ha t I w as d oi ng w ha t I w as s up po se d
t o d o, c oo pe ra te u nd er t he g ui de li ne s o f t he l ic en se .
S o I s ai d s ur e, p ut i t i n.
Q. W as i t yo ur u nd er sta nd in g th ey w er e wa tch in g th e
c am er a s o t he y c ou ld s ur ve il s om e o f t he se s tr aw
purchase suspects?
A. That i s the p urpose t hey t old m e, y es.
Q. Was i t your u nderstanding t hey w ere g oing t o
interdict these weapons shortly after?
A. Absolutely. I was assured all the way through
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t hi s p ro gr am t ha t t he y w ou ld b e s to pp ed b ef or e t he y
w ou ld e ve r h ar m a ny on e o r g et b el ow t he b or de r.
Q. S o AT F ma de a ff ir mat iv e re pr es en ta ti on s to y ou
that these weapons would be interdicted?
A. The entire time.
Q. D id t he y ma ke a ny r ep re se nt at io ns t o yo u th at
o th er F FL s w er e p ar ti ci pa ti ng i n a s im il ar t yp e o f
arrangement?
A. They did.
Q. Did t hey g ive y ou t he n ames o f those F FLs?
A. was one them in Prescott. I do not
r ec al l a ny o th er s, b ut t he y s ai d t he re w er e o th er s.
Q. Do y ou k now i f any o ther F FLs h ad c ameras i n
their store?
A. I was not told.
Q. Did y ou e ver h ave a ny c onversations w ith a ny
o th er a re a F FL s a bo ut t hi s?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Were you told not to by ATF?
A. Yes. I was told somewhere along the line that,
t he e xa ct v er bi ag e I c an 't r ec al l, s om et hi ng l ik e w e
n ee d t o k ee p t hi s q ui et , s om et hi ng a lo ng t ho se l in es . I
c an no t b e s pe ci fi c, t ho ug h. T ha t w as m y u nd er st an di ng .
Q. W hen t he i nd ic tme nt c am e ou t in J an ua ry 2 01 1,
w er e y ou s ur pr is ed t o h av e y ou r n am e a ll o ve r t ha t?
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Exhibit 49
Exhibit 49
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2
House Office Building, commencing at 10:05 a.m.
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3
Appearances:
For the HOUSE COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM:
STEVE CASTOR, CHIEF COUNSEL, INVESTIGATIONS
CARLTON DAVIS, COUNSEL
ASHOK M. PINTO, DEPUTY CHIEF COUNSEL, INVESTIGATIONS
JESSICA LAUX, COUNSEL
SUSANNE SACHSMAN GROOMS, MINORITY CHIEF COUNSEL
DONALD K. SHERMAN, MINORITY COUNSEL
JUSTIN KIM, MINORITY PROFESSIONAL STAFF
For the SENATE COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY:
JASON PARIS, CHIEF COUNSEL FOR OVERSIGHT AND NOMINATIONS
CHAN PARK, SENIOR COUNSEL
JASON A. FOSTER, CHIEF INVESTIGATIVE COUNSEL
TRISTAN LEAVITT, MINORITY STAFF
BRIAN M. DOWNEY, MINORITY INVESTIGATOR
ROB DONOVAN, MINORITY STAFF
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For the DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE:
MOLLY GASTON, ATTORNEY ADVISOR, OFFICE OF LEGISLATIVE AFFAIRS
For MR. VOTH:
GREG SERRES, DEPUTY CHIEF COUNSEL, ATF
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I think, historically, they had opted, to some extent, to take
the cases to the State court in just kind of like a fraud-type statute.
It had nothing to do with firearms specifically. It's just the fact
that you -- I guess it would be like a nonsufficient check really. You
know, it was a fraud-type count. I know they have gone that route
specifically because of not getting where they thought they wanted to
get with firearms prosecutions with regards to straw-purchase cases.
Q Okay.
A And so I think there was a general sense of that frustration.
And I'm quite certain Mr. Newell was aware of it. He had been there
the longest, and he had talked about some of the hurdles of working
in Phoenix and how we were trying to get past some of these things and
move forward.
Q I think I'm at the end of my time, but I have a couple more
questions.
So when you raised that concern, what came down?
A Well, I know there was -- one of the issues was this corpus
delecti issue, as the U.S. Attorney's Office calls it. And I know
Mr. Karmgard prepared a corpus delecti kind of briefing, where he cited
some caselaw and stuff, and sent that over to the U.S. Attorney's Office
and had some discussion with them on, kind of, the ATF position on that.
You know, the position of corpus delecti is that if the gun goes
to Mexico and is recovered in Mexico, it kind of never happened, because
we can't use that in court. It would be hearsay or whatever for a
criminal prosecution. And so they believed, correctly or incorrectly,
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wasn't a strategic initiative, and this case she did had different
defendants. I mean, just some real general facts, nothing specific
that I remember.
Q But you knew at that time that you were talking to her that
was a cooperating FFL in this case, Fast and Furious -- what
became the Fast and Furious case.
A Yes.
Q So you mentioned a December 17 meeting. Are you aware
of -- let's back up a second before we get to that. Are you aware of
an October or November 2009 meeting that other agents may have had with
?
A No. I was not in Phoenix at that time period.
Q Right. I understand you wouldn't have firsthand knowledge,
but do you have any secondhand knowledge? Were you aware of a meeting
that occurred in that time frame that included Mr. Emory Hurley, the
assistant U.S. attorney?
A No, I am not aware.
Q Are you aware of any meetings that Emory Hurley may have
attended at office at any time?
A Just the one that I was at on December 17.
Q So that took place at office?
A Yes. It is a little office in the back of the gun shop.
Q Can you tell us about that meeting?
A Yes. We went in. It was Emory Hurley and another AUSA who
I don't remember and who is no longer an AUSA; it was a female. It
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was Hope, it was Emory, it was me, it was . We went into his office
and told him that we can't tell him who to sell guns to, we can't tell
him not to sell guns to people, that it is his business and he needs
to follow his business practice and his business license. But in the
event that somebody called, let's say, from a phone number prior to
picking up guns, if he could provide us that phone number off his caller
ID, that that would be helpful. He didn't have the video surveillance
in his store that he owned or maintains. We talked about putting one
in, an ATF one that we would monitor. We talked about if there are
any license plates he could get, that would be helpful. We just
generally talked about cooperation.
Q Why was Emory Hurley at that meeting?
A He is an AUSA. We wanted to make sure that we were following
the letter of the law and not asking him to do anything illegal, and
also not violating anybody's civil liberties by denying their right
to firearms. So he is a person with legal -- I guess you would call
it legal expertise for lack of anything better I guess. He certainly
seemed like a logical choice. He was involved in the investigation.
He was aware of the cooperation of the FFL in the investigation.
Q So how many other times did you have assistant U.S. attorneys
go and talk to cooperating FFLs?
A Just this occasion, and the occasion when we went to meet
with at .
Q So those two occasions and this case. How about any other
cases?
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A I don't think I was involved in any other cases.
Q Why not?
A I didn't really have firearms trafficking cases going on in
my previous role at the ATF. And we weren't really seeing the same
problem, so we didn't have the same need to cooperate with FFLs like
that.
Q What was the problem? You said you didn't see the same
problem. What was the problem?
A Well, the large volume of guns being purchased. In St. Paul,
Minneapolis, I mean, if someone buys one High Point or three High
Points, they don't buy the same volume of firearms that we see in
Phoenix.
Q So Mr. Hurley got involved in the meeting on December 17 for
what purpose?
A I thought I answered that; to make sure that we weren't
denying anybody's civil liberties or their Second Amendment right.
And we also weren't doing the opposite of that and asking him to do
illegal sales.
Q Who suggested that Emory Hurley come to the meeting?
A I don't know.
Q So it wasn't your idea?
A I don't think so. It was just, hey, we are going to have
a meeting with , Emory is coming.
Q Was it Mr. Hurley's idea?
A I don't know.
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Q Did request to meet with Mr. Hurley?
A I don't know. I guess I didn't question who --
Q Who told you Mr. Hurley was going to be there?
A I think Hope. I think she said we are going to have this
meeting Thursday -- whatever the day of the week -- and we are going
to go talk to , and Emory is going to be there. And I didn't think
twice I guess.
Q So did express any concerns at the meeting about
his cooperation?
A No.
Q Did he ask any questions?
A No. He just asked like logical questions about phone
numbers or license plates or the camera, where the camera would be and
stuff like that.
Q So he just asked sort of practical, logistical kinds of
questions?
A Yes.
Q He did not raise any concerns about the numbers of guns that
he was selling to folks who were known to the ATF to be suspected straw
purchasers?
A Not that I remember.
Q You say not that you remember. Could he have said that and
you have forgotten?
A I suppose. I can't remember. I remember our meeting was
whether or not he was doing anything illegal, follow the letter of the
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RPTS
DCMN
A When they determined that the two guns found at the scene
were purchased by Jaime Avila I got a phone call from ASAC George
Gillett, and he said that he wanted Mr. Avila arrested 15 minutes ago,
expressing to me a sense of urgency.
I contacted Emory Hurley personally, relayed that information to
him. There was initially a little bit of what I guess I would
characterize as maybe reluctance in that he was concerned about
charging the entire case and if this would compromise the entire case
by revealing all the other -- through discovery -- all the other reports
and wiretaps and all that stuff.
And I suggested, if possible, we could find a kind of stand-alone
reason to charge him if that would suffice to satisfy his concern.
He asked me wh