5008354 Sonderkommando Auschwitz
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Shatll Chaxan: Li fe D idn 't Ma tter Arryntol,c,
Death W as
oo
Close
511:1111
: I I ; I / : I I I
I I ; I S
;I
S I ~ O I I ~
>L . C S C I I C C
a n d P I - o i e c ~ sl l imp ress ive pe rsol l -
I I I I ~
I i \
1;11'j:c*c'yc*s
I I ; I ~ I < I C
w ith vi tal ity . He is an offspr in g of the prou l J e w i s h
L ~ ~ ~
1
S;~ loi l ik i l t id a loyal , d yed - in- the-w ool Zio nis t . H e d ic l 11ot
; ~ l l o wI I I ~O I I Y i nte rv ie w s wit11 h i m t o p a s s w i t i i o ~ ~ t. c l t e r a t i l ~ gis c o ~ ~ v i c t i
I I I ; I I
t 1 1 *
I l o l o c a u s t c o u l d n o t h a v e h a p p e n e d h a d t h e I e w s hncl a s ra re ro
~ ~ ~ - o t c . c t~ ~ ' I I I .l v i t l i o ~ ~ ts t a t ? , \vc a r e e as y p re y f o r e x r e r r n i ~ ~ a r i o n . " e a l-
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location: "I- lere wa s thc
r o o m
~ ~ l h c r ehe peop le und ressed , he re was t l i e doo r
t o t he g as c l i a ~ u l ~ c ~ ;lc rc was the %asclianlher itself,
a n d
here 1 removed the
l .oclies i~ .ori l l ic gas cIiam1~)rr ." t ~ir l ied a le fro m sl ~o ck .t ~ v a s s t h o u g l ~lr
Iiacl left this place
c ~ ~ ~ l y
c s t c ~ . d a ~ .
l ' l ie rnosr nioving part c?f t l ie v is it for me. ho\vever n experience that
11rt111ght m e t o re ar s w a r r e m a r k t ha t S li au l m a d e a f te r o n e of i b e r e c o r d i ~ ~ ~
s e ss i oi ~ s. G i d c o ~ ~ , "le saicl as wc walked slowly from the ruills of C:rernnto-
1.111111 ( I l l
to the ya rd
uf
t he c r e ~ l ~ a ~ o r i u n i ,he ~n ic r -op l ic~ i ietill o n, "soltle-
thicig tllar has Iwen 1:ottled u p illside llle for lno re tllall for ty years bas just beel
p~u 'ge t i .
i
his clay, I haven ' t to ld ariyolle i l l m y family a th ing about nly l ife
dllr ing t l ie I- ln locaust .
1
just col~l (lri.( ell tllc111ahou t lny wor k in Bi rkenau .
N o w
I
(ee l r e leased . T hc s l~ ack l c s
l l ; i t
I o l ~ l ~ t lly heart have been untied.
' l ~ l i n r ~ kou for d o i n g th i s f o ~ .11r."
wa s clc lig l~ted o I lcar I l lis . b l y t .orlscic .nce troubles rne when
1
lead EIolo-
caust survivors I~;lc l<nto t l lri l- IJ ;I . ;I , 11rir. >it ter n ie~ nori cs , heir n ightmares,
eve ry th ing tha t they 11;lvc I)ccrl lryill : to I .cpress a nd ga g in old er t o ma ke theil-
lives i n t he ~ ) r c s c ~ ~ lo l r i - ;~ I l l r . .~ I ; I I I ~ ' sort ls show ed nrc that th e jourlley to [lie
pas t a l so has
a
pos i r ivc e l l ' t~ rc ; l ~l i ; ~r s is r o ~ n he pa in fu l and cumula t ive
l ~ ~ ~ r t l e nha t pco1>1c Iil\c
1 r i 1 1 1
I I ; I V ~
I J C T I c : i r ~ - y i ~ ~ gor years .
Ovc r [ l lc next Icw
I I I O I I ~ ~ I ' ~ .11;1111o l ~ l I I C
tha t a l te r l ie had re tu r r~ed rom
our t r ip togc111~1 .I C I I ; I O
1 1~1
~ l ) i l C l ~ - r ~ ~l l ~ o ~ l ti s t e n u r e ill A ~ ~ s c h w i t zor the
first cinic.
I
lis l ~ t ~ ~ . t l c ~ ~I I ~ I ~ I I I ~ I - i c s
1
/ \ ~ r l i ~ l i ~ i t ~a s n o l o ~ i g c r s o n e r o u s a s i t
had been.
interviiwcrl ( :I i . lx ;~~i
ll I
Icl)rcw, i
I ; I I I ~ I I ; ~ ~ C
hat he l lad never really
mas
t e red . I l c g av e I ~ i s c s r i ~ l ~ o ~ l yl l S ~ I I ~ ~ ~ I CC ~ I I I S ,~ 1 tl le ll again , th e characteris-
t ics that I
I l x i
discovcrctl in hi111 ~ I I I I C I -)oaTel., i~ lcc rity , redil)ility, a n d 11011-
csty
-- do
no t ~ tec t l o f ty rhe to r ic .
I
lc ~ ~ c v c rrieci t o prett ify the gha stly reali ty>
never sougli t jnst if icatio i~so r c s c ~ ~ s c s ,levcr placed hilnself a t tlie forefro nr,
anrl i lever por trayed I l imself as
a
he ro o~ as a persorl wit11 special cr edentials.
Even w len l ie Jescribetl I lorrors- the gas, tl le furnaces, the ashes, the incon-
c c i \ ab l c s u f f c r . i ~ ~ g -le spok e s imply an d a lw a~ ls id so in a gentle . restra inecl:
r o n c
o i
volce.
In aclcli tio~l o his o the r f i ~l e i laractcr tra i ts , Shaul h ad the abil i ty to discor, -
nect f i-onn i \ i ~r ch\ ~:i ~rwift y and re t l~ r n o da ily l if e. W h en w e v is ited Jose i
<a;lcar ~oqeth-; .. ih nu l anti Jo se lpoul.ed theruse vcs little cu ps of wi ne, sippec
c o n ~ e n t c d l y .nc e n j o y ed t h e l i o ~ n e c t r e s h m e ~ ~ t ss
1
conduc ted the rntcrIrlews
a n d
IS
t l ie colivcr .sr t io ll rurned to the J-Ioiocausr . The ) we re .imply h ~ p p y
wit11 riicir lot .
This
t il ey e s l ) l , ~ i ~ i e d ,as t l ic ir great v ic tory over Hitler , a b it of
c o ~ l s o l a t io u ~ n i d s the t ~ r ~ l u ~ l t .
\ ~ l l i r ~ i c ~ c rcon tem pla te S l lau l Chaza r i , a
m a n
wlio repre sents ti:e Je wi sl~
colnmirnity of Salonika s o well ,
1
grasp the eno rmi ty o f t li e Ic) ss , thc c~ io r mi ty
of wh a t the mur de r o f s ix ty th ousandJe ws o f S a lon i lta has cos t 11s a l l , J ew s and
11on-Jews alike .
kJr. S l ~ a ~ i lhazcziz, tl~isirtervieiu w ill foctrs irtniirly oil yorrr j~ eri oti ru11r.k
iuith
tile
S or~ i ie rko t iz~~za l?dof A ~ i s c l ~ r u i t z - B i r k e i lm .efo1.e get stclrre'f, h o u -
eve r, l e t2 t r~ke qu ick look a t you r l i b be fo re yo ri we t r t O Arr_crbil~i~e.Y7I~ere
i~rzd uI?eiz lte re yo11 bol.ir?
I
w a s b o r n
i l l
1924
in Salonika, Greece.
1V'o~~ld' o u li k e t o t el l ~ r sonretl~zrrg bo ut yo ur f irrrri1y.j
M y f a t h e r w a s a c l o t h i n g m e r c h a n t . We wer e fo ur chilc lren, t w o b o y s a n d
two
girls . T w o of us snrvivctl :
111y
brc jthc r, wh o e scaped to Athens a n d joined
the pa rt i sans , and I.
Caiz yoti de sc rib e horr ] il l)c',ylirr, 1~~11eirl ~ ee t u s o Snlorrikrl begim to cotrre
rurder restrictions?
W h en the Gern la ns i r~v; it l cc li r 9 ,o ~ l cf m y sis ters was s ix years olt l ant1
tl ie o ther was eigll t . My I I I . O ~ I I ~ ~ I .
L,;IS
ten ;111d wa s sixreell. Dai ly life wa s
usirally undistur1)ecl r 1111 i l
I
v.~.L , r l t s lowly we began to fecl the yokc of the
occupation. Wc all l i :~cl
0
wc,;~ r l lc yellow star , t l ie "yellow I~, lotch."T h e
G e r m a n s b r o k e i n t o
1 1 1 ~ . ~ O I I ~ C S f t l i t '
we:~ltliy,p i l fe red va l r ia l~ le s , nd loo ted
t he s h o p s o f J e w i s l ~ i i c r c l ~ ; i ~ ~ t s .
A f t e r w a rd s , t h e ; C I . I I I ; I I I SC I I I y o ~ ~ ~ ~ g , l c w i s l ~nen awa y fo r fo rced labo r . On
July
r r ,
1942 all ,lcw s ;~i:c,tl c.ik:l~~cC .~~I I fo~- ty -f ive ad to rc l lo r t to Libe r ty
Scluare, a lar ge sclr1.11-c I I ; I I O I I I I < ; ~ .w;is c igli tccn by then .
l't,
ge t t o t . he squa rc ,
you had to go ~ O W I I
I street 1 I 1 ; l r
w ; ~ s
L I I I
f SS men. We were a ll beaten,
kicked, and cursctl o r 1 O I I I . w;iy to t l ic scluare . ' I-he squ are w as half full b y the
r im e w e g o t t l ~ e r r I I I ~ ery ';lowly fillecl u p tot all y \vitln yo un g rnel-I 11y :he
deadline they'd givcn 11s.
Around tllc sclrl;lrth, 111 t l ~ c . oo f t ops , e nna n rnen and wori le l: s tood a n d
scared at us
a s
it tlicy were watching a play. i \ l l o f us ha d t tr d o d i fhcu lc
ca l is then ic s In t l i c scve re l~e a t nd the we ake r one s were h i t wi th I ,a tons to
humiliate the111eve11 mo1.e . Othe rs w ere bea ten i ln ti l they bled. T hen thcy
began to sca rc ll fo r lncn wl lo were e legan t ly d re ssed ; a l lyone who ~ v a s a u g h t
t o o k I ~ r ~ r t a le a t i ~ i ~ .hey ru l led those peop le dow n t l ie s t ree t l ike ba r re l s
a11daskeci t l ic~ii ; Are y ou
a
c a p it a li s t, h y c h a n c e? " T ' h ey t o r t ~ ~ r e dhose peop le
ro
d e a t h . l ' h i s a h r ~ s easted frorn the mor ning anti1 t ile afternoon . I n he m a n -
tirne, they began to register thc m en. I sroud aside; I was in no ru sh
t o
s ig n U ~ J .
A li t t le before two, those \v llo hadn ' t regis tered were to ld
[ t i
c o m e h a ck
011
Sunday.
O n S u n d a ) ~ ,h o s e w h o h a d n ' t r e gi s te r ed a s s e ~ n b l e d . d id n ' t g o t h e r e, I clid~i ' t
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nryn up, ar~ t l srayed off t i ~ c i st . W l ~ a t a s 1 supposed to do then? In the
~ n e a n t i m e ,liey begall t o assign all the me n wl~o 'cl igned up for forced labor i11
Salonika an d ill the villages nearby. This went on fo r abou t three to four
lllolltlls.
T / J ~lJell0 ~eriocieg~zrz hen, ciicfrr t
it
The gh et to was cstabl ishccl in la te 1 942 o r easly I 943 in the Haron Hirscll
The g l ~ t t o a s d iv it lcd in to two zones , sou the rn anc l no r the rn . 7 'l icy
inlposccl restr ic t io~ is n nlovelneri t an d soon the Jcw s wrrc r iot a l lowcd to
leave the ehetto
a r
a ll . L iv ing con t l i t i o~ ~s
n
the t iny Iiouscs wcrc ~~ ~~ I> ca l~ ; l l ) l e .
olr~
it i
the Iew c ~ r i~ zh eliuiilg?
'Tliose who did focced lallor outsiclc t11c ~:Ii(,ttoolcl t l~cir ropcrty to CI~ris-
tians in the lna rltet. 111 he g Ii( ~tt o tsclf , 00t1 w;is Il;l~~tlcclu t . And t l i e~ l he
t ra l i spo~ . t so A ~ ~ s c l i ~ v i t r ., c . g ; ~ ~ ~ .
T he t l c l ) o ~ . ~ ; i t i o l ~ s)cg;i11
l l
/\.1;11.cIio , j . l ' lie first to be transported were
tliosc wlio livctl
i l l
111c\ I I O I I I lil.s~. li tral.ter, 111 the ghetto. Additional ghetros
\ \JCI.C
set 1 1 1 ,
; ~ I O ~ I I I [ I
S.IIOIIII<;I- oort l i a11d so ~l th
f
tow11-and a small part of
tlic glirtto I , ~ ~ I I I \ ; I ~ ~ ~ I I Ias tlc1x)rtcJ each time. In May
~ 9 4 1 ,
ur turll came.
'i ' liry (ooI<11s
I I I
t l ~ c v l ~ o l r; ~ ~ n i l y .:irst they took us to the Baron I-Iirscl~
glic%tto.
\
k ~ v
t l i c r I i~~n i l i e shat hadn 't bee11 agile c~ io ug h o cscape were
t l ~ cr c . t11c l ~ ~ c a l ~ t i ~ ~ i e ,he Gernlans hacl the young men rernoved from the
~ o l > t ~ l ; ~ t i o ~ ~Ii;1t
was eartnark ed for deporta t ion-at least twelve hundred
~ O I I I I ~11~11,~~c luc l i i igoyse l f .
\Wl cv.e
10ei.e th e forced ltrborers taker??
LVc I)coplc, tlie young Jew isli forced laborers, w ere put to work building the
S;iIonika-Atliens railroatl. 1:our l al ~ or amps were established especially for
tlic Jcws: Viba, Assopo, I.ianol<landkion, and IZaria. About three hundred
, lc \vs ~vo sked n e:lch of these camps. I was sen t to Assopo , in the mou i~ ta i~ l s
w a r i\the ~is . n fork etl he re for three months. \We lived in 1)arraclts. \Ve wcre
gu iwdct l by Germans a~ l d e ml~ers f other nationalities, lrlainly Yugoslavs
a n d IJk~.ai l i ianswho'tl bcen iocluctecl into the Orga nisation and they
tr.c;ited us viole ~ltly. 3vcrything there was don e m ercilessly and cruelly.
I ) I V i
t is
p~r1 tof thr
orcfe ai erzcf?
111 i\u gu st
1 9 4 3 ,
we firiished the job a nd Ive were take11 back to th e Liaron
I Ill-scii glietto. Th ere we discovered t ha t they'd depo rted our families; all the
I;~nlilics inrl bee11 sent t o /\r1scl~1vitz. n nly gr oup , w hich returne d to the
glictto iro111 lie Icaria ca mp , there w ere three h und red Inen, all as skinny as
i l i i l i ~
l'lic iootl i r i tile ghetto was berrer than it had bcen in the ialmr canlp
~v hcr c c 't l h i l t tl ie r a il road .
I I C 0;i). I W C C I < 01
two
la ter, ar around two P.M. nre were or dered to pack
0111. 111111gs.Vc \vt'rc told tIl:it we were go lng to Poland . Wh en
I
heard tliar, I
f led f rom the ghe t to w ith my b ro the r a t the l a s t ~no mc nt .l ' l~erilnspol-t Icft,
hut my brother and I and a f ew o the r peop le ~nanagec lo evad e i t .
Where
did
you flee?
We a ll wen t in d i ffe ren t d irec tions. M y lxo the r a ~ i J dicln't k11o\~7 hat to
do . I remembered a shop in Sa lo~ ~i l t ahe re I usecl t o worlc. 7'11e sh op liatl
a
department in the basement , a i d a Greek who m knew worl te t l t l icrc . Ar 'to .
we told the Greek our story, he saitl, "Stay here, in the I)ase~ncnt."Y7e stnyetl
there and went into hiding. About half a n \ lour la ter , he raced over and said,
"You've got to get ou t of here." Wh en w e askecl hi ~ n hy, lie said, ''Thr l
sari
you. They'll get us all into lots of trouble." W he n we askecl
l i i ~ l l
llat ro dtr, he
answered, "Get ou t of here , go s traigl i t to that vi llage. Thcrc you 'l l c er t a~n ly
find partisans . You have no o the r c l~o ice ."We to ok his aclvice. 111 act , hc w;?s a
good Inan wh o real ly wanted to help us hu t wr ~s fraid of enda11ge1.11lgimself.
So we wandered l ike nom ads from place to place. Follo wil~ g he Grcelz 's
advice, we walkecl in the nlidclle of the ro ad , ten Inerers apart . Forrunalely, we
had a little money o n us. I said to li ly brother , "We have to f i~id way to get to
the partisans." We wand ered for f ive days, day an d night , ~111til e l-~nal lsncl
Greek col labo rators caprured us in a mo unrainous are a. h l y brother had a
bir th cer t if icate and an
ID
card; 1 didn ' t have an y papers a t a l l . 1 asked my
brotlier for his birth certificate and added Iny o\vn name. 111 other worcls, I
forged it.
"W ho are you ?" they shouted a t us when we were captul .t .c l .
"Jews," we answered.
"W hat are you doing here i l l the moun ta ins?"
"\Ve're w ork ing here, i l l the villages."
"Where have you bcen until now?All the Jews fr om Salonika Ii;~ vc lrcacly
been arrested "
They continued to interrogate in that manner ancl beat us scvo.ely. "Don't
you kn ow that everyone in Salonika has beell arre sted?"
"No , we 've 1)een wo rkin g in the villages."
LVe were inte rrogate d and beaten ove r the head an d on the soles of our feet.
Even t l lougl~t I iur t , we s tuck to ou r s tory alm ut being worl tess in the coun-
tryside and d idn ' t te l l them that we 'd escapecl from Baron II i r sch. That ' s
hecause if so ~u eo ne scaped from the G erman s, they w oult ln ' t 11esit: lte to kil l
them then and there.
But the Germa ns didn ' t bel ieve us and decided ro i~~ vesr igac e1stho r~oug hly~
was taken f i rs[ and ordered
:o
remove nly socks and shoes. They tied the soles
of
y
eer to a s t ick, t ied my ha nds dow nw ards , and
r
nle on the soles
:)t
nly
feet. "Talk," thev said. "W here a re the two of you fro m? :\re
y o u
par t~sa l l s?"
"WTe're not partisan s."
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Thc bea t i~ lgs
11
the feet co~ it inu ed nt i l
I
lost all feeling in my legs and feet.
L hurt so badly that my sense of feeling disappcarcd.
I
knew I couldn ' t do a thing; I had nothing lef t to say. We were doomed. At
t ha t n i o ~ ~ l c n t ,he G eri ~x ui l lo conclucted the interrogat ion cam e close tu nie
a ~ i c iaid. "Very well. If you clon't Lvnllt to tell the tr u th ..
.
Suddenly
I
heard n
gu ~is lio t. Iicii tlie officer said agairi, "If you d on't wan t to tell the truth , what
happened to yot i] - b ro the r w il l happen to yon . We have ~ ~ 1 s thot him." I s tuck
to lny s tory abo ut kn ow i~ lg othing an d again they hi t me on my fect and legs.
4
few ~ niri utes gter,
I
was ta l<en to
a
Sorest and forced to undress. A sergeant
began to
interrogate
me again.
"Jcwv, tell nle where you were "
"Nondlerc . I was just moving arou nd am ong the vi l lages."
I
was so afra id of
l?cing killecl tha t I did n't tell tliem t hat I'd escap ed. I made up a s tory abour
how I'tl been w orltirig iu tllc cou ntry side . Tha t's ho w
I
stayed alive.
"Tell me the t ruth Whcre were you ? Do you belorig to the partisans?"
" l ' n~ i c ~ tpart isan.
I
mov e arou nd frorn village to village to make a living,"
J
answered.
a i n ~ c dhe r if le a t me a nd asked again: "Talk. \Vliat d o you kno w about
the parr isans?"
"Nothing," I answe red again.
"Talk or I 'll slio ot you."
After it slowly clawued or1 I litii t h a t he c o u l d ~ l ' t e t a th i n g o u t of I I I ~ ,lc
curset1 and sj7uttered and too k Ine to Pavlo Me la.
\yr /~nt as I 'a li lo M e l d
Pavlo Mela was a pr ison i ll Salonika. They interrogated nle t l ~cr( ,- " I ' ; i r ~ i -
sans . l id you see them ?" So t l iey s tar ted the wliolc t l i i~lg ll ovcr . ' l ' l~c yicl~l
us t ll cre for six n~ on t l ~s .11ri11g hat t i ~l ie , ore Jews wel-c hr or ~g l~ tl l r ~ r ~ t i l~ r r
~ i n n ~ b e r srew to ten, as many a s f i f t e e 1 1 . J ~ ~ ~ .alonikn 11;1cl 11cc11 ~~ ~l )r icc lf its
Jewish pup l~ le t ion xcep t fo r
a
few ~ l i o ' c l vadcrl tlic
r a id ;i1ic1
sevc~ralJcwisIi
l a~n i l i c s ha t he ld Span i sh ci ti zcnsl lip. 011 ly few lcws ~ -c~ l i ;~ i~ lc c ln all of
Creecc ll little places like Io ann ina, 1-a -issa,o r A t l l c ~ ~ stself.
\Vhnt 1)app erred rzext?
Before the Jews of Athens were put
ill
the t I a ida r
concentration
camp,s we
were tak en From the I 'avlo Me la prison to Athens. ' l 'liere w e were treated
appallingly. I rem e~n bc r n especial ly cruel SS off icer who took us to a Chris-
tian del ltist ruid as ke d Illin, "Tel'ell me, w ha t are these " T he d entist ex am lne d us
ancl ans\vcrcd illliocently, "Tl~ey'rehun ~a rl c i ligs." In response, the officer
sliollteri,
Lo,
ihey 9re owly Jews "
We were thr f i rs t
gt oup
that caln e to Haid ar. \Ve stayed there for several
nlontils, 11ntil he rou ntl ~r ps f the Jews of Athens beg an. At first they hro ught
i ll theJews w ho hadn ' t been regis teretl yet , including Leon Co lie~ i , i lo~ li Inct
Tile
cam p filled up slowly until u~ ilc ss iy tnemory 11as
lailrcl
111e
c
mere sixty Jewish prison ers. On e day, tlie 01-clerwas given to ro~lncl p all jews
in Athens who'd already regis tered a~ l d
o
b ~ i n gh e m to tIaida1.. They were all
a rre sted on one day a~ ldake11 o Ha idar . The tell Jews fro111 a lonili:~ nt1 the
Jews from Athens spent ab out a w eek together there .
A few days later, in April 1944 we werc takcn by tra in
re
Auscllwitz. 1 ' 11~
trip lasted teu days. Tlie transport was made
u p
of Jews from vario i~s laces:
Ar ta, Io anu i ~ la , nd o the r p laces .
Please describe your arr i t~n l
n
Ausc /~&~i tx .
Th e tirst thilig
I
11ea1.d rom the Gc rnlans wa s, "Leave everyt hing here c ~ ~ n c
get o u t of t l ~ crai l1 cast ." A l l the f ;lmil ie s c limbet l d o w ~ ~rorii the train and tlie
Selcfitic,ri O I I tlie I,l;~tCor~ll3cg;i11. his was a little hefore eleveti A M Pcople
wel-c sc11t i ro ~l~ .A ws cl~ wi tzo I \ i r k e ~ ~ a u .
I )it/ //lcl
~ ~ r r l l l c ,
iirl:c~rrrrri
r r c 7 t r r r
r l l l ' y / / ~ l l l ~yorr 1 t/1e tillre?
N o t l ~ i ~ i ~ .c wcbr.c*) I . ~ I I 311-c 11;it tlicy'd prlt us to far111 al~o~..Vhe~iwe got
I I I C ~ C ,VC
V C I I ~
tr:~ik;l~tI I I O ;I l ivi~igicll.
\V \ I~I /tt~~rttor.;(*s
/ ( I ~ ( J I
1[11ic* , f t / ~ o s eirs1 tttot~tetit s
11
Birket~~zzi?
1
r c ~ i ~ t . ~ i ~ I ) c ~ .11;it 1.co11 ;o11c1i
V ~
l ie only one of us \vho spolte C kr ~n an .
W ~ I C ~ I Il c * ; ~ < k c ~ lI I C o l the. prisoners where our families were ~ h c risilnci.
p t ' i ~ ~ c c ~ lI ~ I I V W ~ I 10 t ll c s~ i iokes tack ~n d aid, "They' re goir~go Iheave~i."LVe
111(~\) :11 t Ilc w;ls ta lkin g Iionserlse. As ti ~ n c assed, we realizetl tliat sonlethi11 :
~ c ~ . ~ . i f y i ~ ~ gas I ~ a ~ p c ~ l i n ghere. A pungent s~l ie l l t charred f lesh
I I L I I I ~
in tlie
; ~ i r .Wc were sent to the showers a11d had numb ers ta t tooed o ~ i to 111 lefr
fo rea r~ns .My number was one hundred e ig l lty -two t l io l~sa~ i t livr llunclsecl
twenty-seven. From then on, tliat was my nanie. b l y nalne was no longer
Sliaul.
Carz yo z~iescribe this
it
gretlter det~zil?
The v tatto oed thc num ber o n 111yA S I I I as sooli as
I
got tllerc. Sh e). tooli 11s o
the shower room , shaved ou r hair , took aw ay al l our c iot ii ing, g;lr.i. 11s pris--
oners ' clothing, and tattooe d on the nulribers. 'There was solneolie there wirli a
pencil and
a
sizzlillg needle, and he tattooed the number illto eacli Inall: five
dots, five jabs, and blood began
to
flow. Like cattle,
as
if the ): were h ra~ ic l i r l~
us, marltin g us like cattle, that's w hat they
di l
w ~ t hs, toco. We were Iikc cnttlc,
l ike an imals .
4 s they t a t tooed those numbers in t he s l ~ o ~ v e rounls, tve could srnell t lc
acrid
smell of scorch ed flesh, but
we
dicl~i' t et think that
c h r v
w e r e ~ n c i ~ ~ e s . a r
Ing people.
Where w ere you taken (lfie . the tatto oing ?
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A I 1 1 1 i c l c l . 1 y I I I C ~ C ; ~ I V CLIS 21
po1.tio11 f
SO I I ~ J
nd then they took us to the
" ~ ~ I I ; I I - ; I I I ~ ~ I I ~ . " '
e ~ y l ~ ~ f o r t ~ l ~ l a t c l yor me, ~ l l a t e ry evening I went out i lu~n-
ccntly to piss at the fence. We didn' t kno w th at we wercn't al lowed to go out
and wa lk nroirnd . T he I'olish )lock elder grab bed me an d hit nle with his fists
until Ile bro ke 111y nose. H e could l~ av eiilled lrle wit11 his fists. We spcnt two
weclzs in the "quarantine."
19ot.v loere p e o p l ~ hose n for th e Sorrtlerkol7ttlzartdo?
l ' h e Gel - rna~ls imj~ ly i si te tl the " qu ara nt i ~~ e"ncl picket1 ou t 250 s t l r ~ ~ l g
men io r labor. We tl idn' t k now w hat we'd been chosen for unti l
w e
hcgan to
work. We began to ~u ar ch o work wi th another
zoo
mell.
Tlotu I I I ~ I ~ Yf t h e
z o o
t ilel l tuere let l ) ~rutrz Greece?
They were all iron1 Greece because i t had been a transport j ro r~ ~;reccc.
I . a te r on , a t the cren~ato r ium ,here we re also Poles, Czec hs, anel Rr1ssi;lns.
t
C r e n ~ a t o r i u m I I I IVJ, there u7erea lso threenon-Jewish I t r l ss i ; l~~s .
IVc walked and walked.
11
he way, xvc askecl, "W l~ crc ~ r c o going
to
w o r k ? "
"In a factory," was the answer. 'rllerl wc rcnc.llctl ;1 s111;1llTorcs~.W looked
a r o ~ ~ n d ,
nd
w h a t
tlitl
wc scc? A littlr t.rrslic Iici~rrc.,I c-orc;lgc
1I1 I y
tself. We
wen1 ~ I I ,ncl wllcr~ h c y l~cnccl hc t loci~. ca
. o r 11cI
I1:11-clly
I)c.lic,vr
I I I I -
eyes. The
W I I O I C
i l~tcrior- i l ~ e
I O I I S >
IV;IS l i l l > c l lvi111 ioclirs ~ ' I . O I I I I I ~ ~ I I I S ~ O I . ~ ,llore t11a11
a thol~s: tnt l o ~. l~sc s .
l ' l l c ,
wllolc
I . O O I I I
W;I S lill('cl will1 I)ocli(-s. rcll~cu~l~erhen1
picking orlt sis or scvc l~ lcrr
- I
w ; ~ s
I I ( > 01 I ~ I ( I I I - ; I I I I
I . : I ~ I I ~ I I ~
>Iotvs
11
us,
Move i t , movr i l ,
S ( ; I I - (
wo~.ki r~) ; "l~~~ic~lcirr;:,~c . ; ~ r i r ~~ : . ; ,11c.y licln't giv e us a
c ha nc e t o th i nk ; ~ l > o r ~ t
1 1 . 1 1
wcs'tl i r l h l sc.c.11. \Vc h ;~ cl
- ~ I I I O V ~
he bodies.
There wa s a pool t l lcre,
a
t l ~ c p>i t ,
;~ l l ( - c lI
~~1 ~1 1 1 1 1 ~c . r . ' ~~
IVc had t o pile the hotlies or loll o(c;icO
o i l ~ ( ~ r
11ccs ; l ~ - t l i ~ ~ c s .t l ler workers
spli t logs ancl we did eve rythir~ gn sc(l11~11ccwoocl, corl~sc s,wood , corpses,
corpses, corpses, ~111tilhe w l~ ol e it wa s lillccl. \ I ) : ~ ~ r c l( g ; ~s o l i n etood there;
i t h a d b e en p r e p a re d I ~ f o r e l l a n d . ' h e
SS
nl;ln w l ~ o as
i l l
chargc poured the
gasolilre, pullccl out a h and gun, an d fired a Icw rou i~t lso set the gasoline on
lire.
Y O LI
c o ~ l l d ~ i ' ts e a l u a tc h . T h e f ir e t o ok h olcl a ~ ~ t lorpses, corpses,
corpses , corpses, throw 'em in, throw 'em in, burn 'em , bur11 'em, Imrn 'em.
0 1 1
an d on, endlessly. Tha t's ho w it was. "Mo ve it Mo ve it " Beatings all tlie
t ime.
" 1 ~ ~ 1 ~ 1 1
11 these corpses a nd w ipe ou t this transpcjrt " We \yere told that
we'd
Ilc;
w o r k i ~ ~ gwelve hours, Imt t l~ at as never twelve hours LVe got there
at tw o an d we dit ln ' t leave ur~ ti l wo tlie next (fay. That 's twenty fo ur hours
straight.
Where
u us
th pool t l ~ n t
lou
iierrtiorzed
u
(ex1 rrlintltes ag o?
l ' lie poud w as also called a "hunker." Just now, wli e~l returned to Ausch-
witz,
I
didn't find the pit or the cottage. It 111usr ave been hel~intlC~.c lna to-
r i u ~ nV [V].
Call yozl desci,ibe tllc pit?
It was very deep,
1
thinli ab out foul-m e te rs de ep . T h e bo di es w er e t l ~ r o w ~ ~
I I
f rom above . We s tood in a group and l~ l ; ~c cdhelii up or1 top o f each c~ ther.Ve
went into the pit with a ladder. After
we
filled the pit, they cl~rrnpecl llc
gas-
oline orlto the hotlies an d the SS ma n fired a bullet an d startcd tlle fire. Th e lire
burned day a nd night, at ld
it
was ou r job to throw tlie bodies in, non- stop.
iVl7ere
did the
botiies cotrte
fronr
Near the pit , there wa s a l it t le house that w as used as a g as c h a ~ n b e s .Af ter
the people went in, the gas was thr ow n in and they felt that they were cl~ oki ng .
Then they sho ~l ted Sherna Yisrael" to heaven, l l ~ r t o one heard the shou t i l~g ,
no one g lanced. Somet i~i res asked ~uyse l i , Where are G od s wo r~der s nd
miracles?"
H ow far wirs the pit fiottz the cottage where the y poisol~ed
he
/ > ~ o / j l c ?
A
few meters, maybe thirty meters.
Were t h Lodrcs
piled
irtlo the
p t
z i r
airy
przrticrllav order?
Yes. We laid the bodies in rows and placed pieces of wood on
top
of each
C ~ V orpses , wood , corpses, wo od.
Wha t k i i ~d ruood d id (Lev zrse?
Th e wood was taken from tall trees, not boards but real hunks o f logs.
Hoto tnany Sutzderko~t~i i lat idoizeH tuorketl r l f I I I "Irlrlrkers"
a t
{ e tiric:
About three huntlred m e n in all, I think.
Did y ou ever see iuorrzarz nnzoizg th e Sorrderkorrtnlarldo tr,lorkeis.i
No , only m en were chere. People said that at f irst he re was a w onla:? r wrz
wh o shaved her hair , but
I
didn't see her.
W l ~ e r e
id
yo [ sleep at the iirtze?
\Ve slept in a barra cks ill Birkenau, nu mb er
r
r
o r
I
3
From there we walkrti
to W ~ I - kveryda y. W hen \tie retur ned to the b arra cks, they m ade 11s sills.
\Ve
sallg songs il l Greek, folk songi.9 The G erlnans loved t lie souild of the G k e k
langua ge. KJe sang very loudly.
Was yoltr Darracks ur~d er zlnrd
Yes, but
i t
wasn' t necessary because we were sealetl iu from the o~~tsidc.
What 's more, there was nowhere to escapc to. The latrines were also
in
the
barracks, so thece was no need to go
out
Wa s there erzollgh food?
We got the sam e food as all prisoners in the camp. Wherl you havc a joh like
this you don' t think ab out f oo d at al l . 'Phc only thing
I
t h i ) ~ r ~ l l tb o u t w a s h o w
to escape.
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Did you h u e tirrle t o co ~lv ers e it h o tl ~ er orztierko17t17zar7do 1l7erl~bers
Z
yo11 worked?
N o, tlie Icap o alw ays pu shed 11s to w ork faster. As timc passed, ale got
particu larly depre ssed. We clicln't feel like thinking people anym ore. \Ve just
worketl , a te , an d s lept , like autonia tons.
We re yort be~zlerz r~rirzg l ~ a tirrze?
Everyone w as beaten , no t just nie. We were beaten on the back ancl over
t he
hea d. Th is system didn't leave us any time t o reflect aho ut w11e1.cwe were
a l ~ d
wllat wc w ere d oin g. XVhenever w e lagged even a littlc, they [lent 11s right
away.Io
ith
ubat tlitl th e Ger.n~arls it yord
They llit us witli a rod or a lash. 'The
SS
m e n h a d sl>cci;il r~l)l)cr11l)c:s.
\Y%err did y ou first see a trarlsport o fJ eu ~ slrri~,iil,:
1
I / r .k ( , / / r / /~?
Scvera l t r anspor t s came in the f ir st two weeks . r c '~~ l (v l~ l ) (* r
I I ( , I I
I l i n t S ~ W
t ra l ls p or t a r ri v e- 1 h e a r d s c r e ~ l m i ~ ~ g .h e s c l - c ; ~ ~ l ~ i ~ l g11 ;1 r c1 .111) t (~ lr(1111he
peoples' throats was harcl to believe. It
W;IS
;I I I I I ~ : ~ I I . ; I I I S I ) O I . I -;1I111ost three
t l~ ou sa nd eople . Th e scrcal i is reaclle tl 1111
I O
I I ~ . . I V ~ . I I .
I I I ~ I I
I I C ( ~ ; e r ~ ~ ~ a n s
slaiighteretl those people, 1 1o t o ~ i c >y o ~ l c)ul I ) y I I I ( . I I I O I I S ; I I I ( I
C V C I I
; lt t ha~
e ar ly p l~ i is c , ;~ s k e tl ~ ~ y s c l f ,Wllel-c
; I ~ C
; ot l's w o ~ l ( l ( ~ ~ - s
I I I ~ ~
~ ~ i v ; ~ c l c . s ? "hey
thre w tlic g;is
i l l
n ~ l t l I I I I I . C I C I . ~ C I 1 1 1 ~ 1 1 1))I
0 1 i ~ cS:IW :i W O I II ~ II I v l ~ oW: I S ( * I I l)cl1111(1,I I I ~ I ( I ( * , W I I I I
;I
Ii111c
);il)y,
The
gas cIi:i1111)er fiIlc(1 II I ) , I I C * l o o 1 . 5 \ v ( . I ( ~o . k ~ l , I I I ~ I I l ( * W O I I I ~ I I I :111cl lie kid
r e ~ i l : ~ i ~ ~ e dt~tsiclt,.W I I O
< I I O V V S ,
111,1yl)(.I I I ( . I .S( , I I I ; I I I IV ( ,O O . \ I I I I s; iw o11Iy
the wo ma n ancl Ilcr cllil(l. I c - : I I I still \ . . i~ ;I.; i I I I \v( .I .( .c . s~( -~ . t l ;~y .I I SS nialr,
a
yo1111g uy, ei glitc e~l31- ~ T V C I I I ~ * ; I I . sh , 1 0 1 . t ~ I IikI I I . O I I I 11s I I O I I I C ~ ~ arlns
ancl killecl it, and thcn lie killccl 111(. I I I O I ~ I ~ I - .O O . I I ( . ~ I I O I
r l ~ c . W O oI
tllc~iln
co ld b lood .
0 1 i e cvcning, after the corpses Ilad
I~cc.11
. I . ( . I I I ; I I ( . ( ~ ,
I
t ~ . ~ ~ ( . l i I t ) i \ ( l
.
01~1, ick,
a ~ i dl is al ll ed p e o pl e c a m e hy w i th c l o t h i ~ l ~I I I ( ~ 1 I I . I I ~ I ~ I I , : ~ ,I I I I I I I C ~ l t l~i~ped
every th ing ou t
01:
tlle tru ck as if it we re a loacl oIi:r;ivc-l,
S I I ; I I ~ : ~ I Il l l o rile
pit-
w h i le th e ~ e o p l e e re st il l a li ve I s a w t hi s t h v i r r O I I ( ( .I I 111y lit.sr
t l ; ~ yof
wo rk wi tl i t l~ c onderk orn~nan d t , nc l aga in , w ller l
1
I - I .
r
I . ; I I I . ; ( I ~ I I . I S
C;IIIIC' .
The
l > e( ~ p e e rc ~ h r o w n nto the "bunl<er" a~ ic l u rned i~ l ivc . ;~ I so . C I I I ( * I I I ~ ) C T
Greelc jcw fl.0111 t l ~ e o ~ ~ t le r k o m m a n d oho jumped i l l t o
I I ( .
lire.. I I ( . s: ~w hat
was go ing 11a~lc lcnpecl into the pi t . Th at w as that .
W /) en o11 ? .e~rt- /~c ,</h ( ,pils, &ere ill the forest. wh at
' l id
yo11
lc~cd
We hael
2
g u t f cc 'l ill l: t l ~ ; ~ te could n't identify. We didn't k11ow :I
1 1 l i 1 1 ~ .
1 1
t lic onc hand , I
saw
t l l c *
Ilotlic~s lown there; o n the othe r har~cl, l~c.
< : I ~ o
: I I I ~
the SS rnel l were I~ cat i l~ ):
I I ( . ; I I I ( I
c ~ ~ r s i n gt nie all tha t tinle, to 111t.:Iccollll)illll-
rneli t of barking dogs. t wax h(.II O I I earth. If there's a hell aftcr tlc;lt11, l l l ir lk
it
must look like that.
I t
was hell, real hell. There it wasn't I ques t io~ l i w i le ti~e l -
to believe or n ot. A persol1 wh o finds hiniself in tlie midd le
of
Rirltenau
rocla ,
doesn 't k now, doesn ' t understand how sucll a thing could have I~a ppcn ed:
young guy, twe nty years old, in the
SS,
s h o o t i ~ ~ gbahy who's few nlontlis ole{
and th e n s h o ot i n g h is m o t he r . I- lo w c o ul d s ~ ~ c ht h in g ha v e I i a p p e ~ ~ e dn our
world? \Vhat were the inner th oug hts of the you ng guy like?
Whert did yott begirl t o wo rk at C rellzatorilir~z
1
111]?
Eventual ly the Germans f igured out that cremating the corpscs in pi ts , as
they did in Birkenau, wasn 't an appr opriate solut ion. W hat ' s more , winter was
coming fast , so [hey couldn ' t c arry o n tha t way. 'That' s \v\ i (~yliey Ixgan to
incinerate the people in crematoria. They assigned us t o \vork ill the cre11iiitc~-
riu rn . I w e n t t o C r e ~ n a t o r i u ~ n IIII] ancl stayecl there until the e nd.
transport arr ived almost every day,
sometimes
I l lore than one. Crcma-
tions tool< place every day. Day a nd night, they burne d t he bodies of Jews
there. The f urn ice s burned day an d night and we alw ays l iacl to c lean u p the
crematorium an d th e crem ation facil i ties.
Carl you describe lr~ hnthe crenlatori1~171rtiltfirrg lo oke d like frorrr t l ~ erltside?
From the outs ide i t looked l ike a ra ther ordinary huilc l ing made of red
bricks. The undressing rooins a nd t he gas chambn-s w ere in the bascm ent . 7 .11~
furnaces were o n tlic gro un d floor a nd 011 the upper f loor was a lof t . From the
outside, it looked like an ordinary building. You'd never suspect- a th ing . The
relnatorium was surrounded by an electric fence with \vatchtowers. Eve11
when sonleone managed to escape, he had n ow l~ er e o escape t o . G e r n r r r ~ ~ s
were stationecl in every corner, th e gua rdin g was top -ncltch.
\V'cis there alwa ys a gu~ zrd t t l ~ ere~uratorilr~rlate?
Certainly. Ther e were tw o shifts there , clay a~icl 1iglit.Twicc a clay we wcre
cou~ited t rol l cal l. Escape w as absol t l tely o ut of the quest ion.
Ca17 you descr ibe th e w or k at Crellzatorilrrrz
IT
/111]
At Crematorium 11, everyone had a specific ioh. Thc w ork took place in tw o
sh i f t s : ~~ ig l i th i f t and day sh i f t . Each s l~ i f t \ a s twelve hours lo llg . wo rk rd , i~ l
the t~ r ld ress in~oom and a l so I -emovedbodies fr(j111 he gas ch anll >e~ -.
The Germans rushed the victims into the unt lressing room ant1 beat <iny one
who lagged behincl. They left no time fo r reflectio n. "h.love it ~b lov et Mo v c
it " Those were the on ly wor ds you coulci hear ther e. The . ditln't give anyol le a
moment to wonder where he was . Anyone who go t the re co~ ~l c l~ l ' tl i i~lk t a l l .
The undress ing roo m was u nder g rou ~ld ;t had be~icl les nd bangel-s. Everyone
~vi10'darrived w as told they h ad to h an g up th e clothes anel 1.etllernl)er .vilcre
they 'd I lu ~lghenl . The y said that so n o one woulcl
imagine
i ~ ~ l i a t
as
coming .
The people und ressed, crossed the r ooln , and f iled into the gas cham l~el - l le
aiter another.
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IVl~ere uere you as tile people 1 ~7zdressed?
We were in t lle undressing room. T here were G csmans there , too, Thev
stood t l icre with batons and m oved the people alollg . Th e German s didn 't
a l low us to talk with tlie people because wc might disclose some thing to then].
Af te r cvc ryo~ iciad choked to dea th OII the gas, we were ab le to s tar t working.
Did people ol:c-r~sio~inllyefMse to ~ i i~dressnd insist on keeping some of
tl leir clotl~e s
71.
It certainly cou ld have happcmed, I ~ u t didn't see it. Tliey wcre taken to the
gas chambe r ancl that was that . 'The German s beat them and shouteel
at
tllcr~l
as they went, so it all
happened
at record speed.
Pleizse tiescribe a day i n you r ru orkin g li fe, fronz 1.1~0r7zi7igo e~ l~ l i i t l g .
Sometimes 1 had to wo rk wit11 people who'cl already put i l l twc lve l lo~~rs
straiglit and h ad actua lly finished th eir shift. Th e job was only
Ii;iIC
tlollc;
I l ; ~ l f
of t l ~ e as chamher roo m was s t i ll ful l and I had to cll.;lg rllc hoclics o ~ t . llell
xve fin i shed , we poured wa te r on to the f loo r o f tl lc roo i i~ , l c ; ~ ~ ~ c ~ lu t r .c r l~a i~~-
ing Zyklorl crystals that had been c lrop~~cc l
ll
fro111
~ I ~ o v ( * - -I I ~ o I I ~ ~ ~
I I C at-
t i cework sha f t s -and thc gas c l i a~ n l~ c ras tidy ;111cl r c . ; ~ t l y
O I -
I S C ;~g: i i r~.
In
the lneantinle,
a
t r a ~ l s l ~ ~ ~ . t;illic i l l Cro111 llc ol ll c~ .iclts ;111tl I y tllcn I was
stack there for another c igl~r
I O I I I . S ; ~ C I C ~
I ( I
; i l r t ' ; l t ly
~ v o r l i c ~ l-ot~r1o11rs o
finis11 t l ~ e
ork
that re~n;~ir iecll . tc~-11cpr t :v io~~sr;iris11or,t
1i; icI
l~ccri illed off.
When the tsanspnrt calne, tllc pcoplc wcrc lccl clow~i 0 t i l e ~~r l ( l r c s s i~ igoolil.
T l ~ e a s c h a ~ i i h c r a s c le an b y t hi s t i ~ l ~ e ,
I C
e l i l i l ; ~ l i o ~ ~as wol.kilig accord-
i ~ l go regulations , there w as n o oclor, ancl ~li cy c1.c t;~lic~rl Iic gas chamber.
Af te r the doors were c losed , the ve~ i t i l a r io~~;is 111r11cd
o /
i111d lie people
began to not ice that thcy wcre about to c lic . l ip t l lc ~ ~ ,~owcvcl., here was
nothing thcy could do . I t was al l over .
Did yolc tirloiu beforehand rr bat iourttry the I W ~ S ~ ) C ) I . I1~icI o7tze from?
No , we heard nothing but rumors. The "ICanacla" workcrs were always the
firs t to kno w evcryt l iing because they wcre on t l ie p latf or~ n.Therc was a junior
officer who rode
a
motel-cycle;
he told us when a t ransport was
going
to arrive
so that we could s tar t up the furnaces.
J ~ O I L ar in aduance d id you get the i7zformation?
All llour o r tw o, so t hat w e'd i)egi~i o sto ke the furn aces wit11 coal an d get
tlic fire to bur11 properly. Tlie idea was that everything sllould be ready. By
crematioll tinie,
I
mean, when the bodies were to be thrown in, the fire was
suppo sed to be burnilig nicely. It was like a barbecue, where you have to start
the f i re I~eforehand. ou can ' t have a barl~ecuewithout f ire, can y ou? I t was
the sanle thing here . I 'he wllole thing was the same.
Hort IUCI. E the uictiuzs rfivided attrolzg th e c reit~nloria ?
Wl1e11Crenia to l -iu ln I1 [HI] was w o r k i~ ~ gt full capacity, the transport was
takcn to Cre mat oriu m 111
[TV].
There \vas
a
German rvho rode on
a
111oto1.cy-
cle. H e was called t he "angel of death ." I-Ic rocle over ant1 said w1ie1.e l ~ c
furnaces sl~ ou ld le fired up. He was a littie guy, alw ays sam e fellow. ic
knew everything ab ou t dividing up the work. h frer all, it was his job.
Another SS man, officer Moll, was a real saclist. He'd stick a whistlc i l l
peop le ' s ~ i~ou t l i snd sh oot a t i t . So~iiet i rnes e shot people
i n
tllc lie;id.
They
were al l s ad is t s . Mol l a lways wandcrcd a r o u ~ ~ dl ie c re l l~ ;~ to r ium.
id the transpor~ls tsuiilly arrive at rzigl~t, r cfi: t / ~ e yrlso corrie ill tllc d i r ~ ~ ?
Sonre by day, some by ~liglit.Bu t i t d i tln 't ~n ak e b it of d if ference . W h a ~
111atteredwas when the c remato r ium was empty . So~ne t in~eshe transpol.tq
liad to wait on the railroad track because there wasn 't ally toom ill tile crema-
toria.
Please dessr.if7e your elzcotlnter with t l ~ e eople zul ~o i,l,zved in t / ~ e/. (~trs-
ports. Did you have a chance to converse with thern?
No. A fter i l l , I didn't speak their language.
1
o11ly knew Greeli and I_.adino.
Just once,
I
managed to speak with them.
I
found a neighbor
oL
mine from
Sa lon ika in a t ranspor t f rom Bi~n a . saw h i tn f rom a far , to t t e r i~ ~gn one leg.
"Shaul , how are you?" he asked.
How
are things?" I asked Iiiru.
I
was shocked
to see him th ere.
"Eornbs, the Americans,
I
got wounded and they had to cut off my leg
Then he asked m e exactly how he woultl die.
So
he k n e u ~hat bzs elzd rilns ncilr?
Yes, definitely. H e knew it frorn the tnon~ ellt ie caluc ro the cre llatovlum.
asked him, " Wh y ? Wh a t g o o d
~ 1 1 1
t d o y o u ? "
"No You've g ot to tell me. At least \ve silould knoxx," he ansrvcred.
Tdc
wasn't concerned about the very fact that he was g o ~ n go d ~ e ; e lus t w a n t e d
to know everything.
So c-)Idhim. "Here's h ow it wor ks: you get undresseel in the bas e~ nc nt ,
vit
11
.
everyone else, and then all o f you go to the gas. T he ~ a si~~is l l e sou oii
rrid
then they burn tlie corpses." H e wante d to kn ow, so 1 cold him.
Personally, I wasn't sure if 1.J g et o u t o f th er e d i v e 1k ~ i e wli lt olie ciie l'il
die too, hut 1didn't k no w when, m aybe the next week , 11i;lyl.e t l ~ eollowing
month . Life didn 't matter anym ore; death was to o close. \Vc nevel tho ught
ahout l i fe but we thought abou t death day and night , every o~ inu te .
1Grer1't
1 11
afraid of f i~ ldi t7~e1n 'tive s n v ~ o ~ i g/le covflses?
No , because my fanl i ly had been sent t l~er en 194 nd
I
I l ldo ' t r rc ircd o~it l
1944
Did anyo7le in the Sorzderko7n77za7zlio 67zd
I
reiatitle?
O n one occasion, a man w ho had a brother in t he S o ~ ~ c l e r i i o ~ n ~ n a n c l oame .
Ld
orre o i h r m
t c >
He [ the b ro the r ] knew the 55 men w ho work ed there. I-te ask-
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save his brothcr from extermination. The SS man answered, "He'll die one
\\lay or another, if it isn't today, it'll be tornorrow." Tlie
SS
man saved him from
tlie crer nato riu ~n ut put a bullet
in
him soliiewhere else.
Once a trailsport fronr Corfu came. One of niy co-workers in the cremato-
rium was fon ner Greek army officer nanied Peppo-Josef Baruch.]' He heard
that his family hat1 artived fro111 Corfu antl liad been t aken to Cremato rium IV
IV]. Polish IZapos who were ill contact with the Ckrmans worked tliere.
He
told then1 tha t liis family hat iar rived and lie wanted permission to visit them in
Crenlatorium 1V [V]. They l&lii~ndo it; he walked over to Crernatoriuln V
[ V ]
and saw liis family. ~fterw ai.;l s, asked li i~ n,Josef, did
~ O L I
ell them that
they were abo ut to be
murdered?
Ie answcred, "How coultl I tell tliern such a
thing? I just coultln't d o it." I-le saw his relatives, but didn't sap a thing. Really,
what could he have toltl them?
f
he'tl told them, wha t good could it have done
by tllcn?
AizJ you, yourself- io~rlrt'l~tyou rrlake persoizal corztact w it h aizyoi?e other
iharl t )e group froill ~ ; ~ c c ( .c ?
No. There weren't ally Illore groups from Greece. See, it was almost over
b y
the tinlc 1crime. Thc last (;l.ccks were the ones frorn Corfu, who were senr to
Crematol-iun~V J V I
I I I ~
ipetl O L I ~ .
D o
~ 0 1 1
e t i t e l t ~ l ) ~ i ~ ~ ~ t ~ y
I . O U /
t / ~ lari ic t~ lar?
Yes, once two 1in11cll-ecl liilclrc~l ged eight to ten came. Tlley knew they
were about to be killed. S o ~ ~ l e o ~ l eiatl told tliern. They brought them in. It was
e s p e c i ~ l l ~errifying and gllastly.
LWl~erewei z the chi1tii.e~ iorrr
don't know, maybe from Pol a~ ~t l.
Please describe the gas cl~arrzbel..
The gas clianlber a t Crenlatoriurn I1[Ill]was underground. It liad gray walls
and a gray ceiling. The floor was concrete. Thc chamber was large ellough for
a transport of twenty-five hundred pcoplc
i f
not more. The transports were
always lcrl into the gas chamber in olle go. They pushed evcryone in. They
looked liltc show er rooms. They ha d a ventilation system that created a flowof
air. There were sllowerl~eacls n the ceiling, rlext to each other. The whole
cciling was lull of shower lieads. l 'li ey were for "disinfection," the people were
told. Everyo~~cho ente red tlie cllanlber really thought he was going to talte a
sliowcr. But not a drop o f watel- came out of those sl~owe rhe ads. he people
were packctl in i~~ltilhe gas cllan~berwas full. Ylie door was locked after
evcryone was inside.
\V l~u t ~npperied f ter t l ~ e oor was closed?
Alter thc door was closetl, tlie ventilation was turned off. Then some Ger-
mans rolled up in a car that had a Ked Cross emblem on it. T he cans with tlie
gas werc in tlie car. One of tlie Ge rma ~ls ut on a ~ na sk nd threw the gas
111
from above tlie chambe r he contents of one can through one mri~ltlonl, hc
contents of the second tliroug1l the next, antl so on. Wh at kind ot gas \vas i t ?
I t
looked like bits of gravel. After a few seconds or a few r ~ i i l ~ u t e s o u rl-ains
weren't working very well because of what was Iiappening tliel-c-everyo~le
was dead. As soon as tliey'd tliey (lied, the doo r was opened and we 11aJ o I-un
for our lives. Sometimes there were still residues of toxic gas tliesc ant1 wc
might have choked if we'd inhaled it.
FIotu nzatly doors did the gas cb nnzbe , hove?
One door . Tlie people entered tlie chamber tl~r ougl i t and we usecl it to
remove their Lodies. Tlie door was a little larger than the door of a house. I
heavy doo r made of iron.
We re tuoine lz arzd rrze11 tog ethe r irz th e gas ch ai~ zbe r.?
Everyone was together, whole fa~iiilies,ayer upon layer of thcm. Tlie ; were
always all together .
Could people mo ve nroulzd freely ill thegizs cha ti~h er?
Absolutely not It wasn't possible, and no one could get out . These wasn't
enough room. The people were packed up against each other like snt.dillcs.
Were yo11 ofte n irzside the cl~ nr~z bri.?
Yes, yes, regular1 y.
You said that t l ~ eas was t/~rotuizll t l ~ ~ ( j ~ t ~ 1 ~pettirrgs i 7 tbe criliizg. Did it
fir s traigh t to th e floor o r o il to t h ~reople's he ads?
No, no. There were several openings. A lat tice~vo rk liaft came rlowl? f :or~l
each opening. The mesh was t nade o f i2erforat-ed metal; it ran from the will-
(low in the ceiling to the floor. And the gas, in rlle for111 of little pellets, w s
thr o~v n own the hollow shaft. The smell spread. That was the gas.
Diri t l ~ eha f t reach t l ~ eloor?
Almost.
A
sniall space was left so that you could clean there. We poul-ecl
water on the floor and swept up what se~nai net l f the pellets. We always
poured water tliere; that made it easier to drag ant1 pull the corpses along the
floor and to clean np the feces and the filth12 eft
by
tlic victin~s.
The Germans kliew exactly liow to tlesigii the gas clia~nl )er ith max in il ~r ~
efficiency. Even if tliey'd left t he people tliere fol- a whole hoi~r itliout gas,
everyone would have suf focated. It was e11ougI1 o close tlic door. Thc I-oonl
was hermetically sealed. The walls were made of concrete; there was no way
for fresh air to come in, notlii~ig.The ventilation systern luade it possillle to
enter the chamber without risk of clioking.
Hotu tiid the uerztilutiorz systerlr w or k?
The ventilation was installed
111
tlie wall?. You \voultl~~'t
lot ice
rr ;
all
y o u
could feel was thechill. 1-oucould hardly licar i t . Tliel-e was a rnetal cover w ~ t h
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opei i i~igs11d cold a ir came iri almost the en tire length of tlie wall. Th e ventila-
t ion wo rked all the t ime; i t nras turned ofl only when the gas was thr own 111.
Tlie Germans did a very effective job of camouflage. They considered it su-
preincly iniyortant to maintain a nlarltle of secrecy until the last moinent.
Perfect deceptiori.
W a s it dark there, ov tuas the chal116e~llr4minated after. the p eople ruere
packrri in?
T l~ cr e as Ilghting; there had to be since the Germ ans looked dow n to see
wliethcr everyone had died. So the people stood in the l ight. The window
in
the door w as pretty large.
\Vberr
tile
SS ntelz opened the shaft fronz overhead a nd t hre w in the gas,
could the people see rl~a tolirething was happening, that sovrethllzg was berrrg
thr.oturz r r z
All you could notice w as the pu ngent s n~ el l f the gas as it spread. Then the
screanling began. Everyoilc was inside, the door was closed, no ventilation,
an d then they begaii to sense the gas. Olily at th at ~n orn en t id the people
realize that they'd heeri tricked.
Co tild yorr I~errr ile peollle srrcnirr ilig?
I
renienl l )e r t l~a th cy 1 )r ay et l. o l t e ~ ~eard the prayer "Shema Yisrael."
There wasn ' t much le f t 1 0 ay, not nlucli mor-e tha n "Sliema." But no one
heard, n o one saw. 0Ctc11 toltl n~ yself , Where shou ld the won ders an d mira-
cles tak e place i f I I O ~ 1er.e nt1 11c>w?" h1t othin g h appe ned . It w asn't a rnatter
of ten people; it was all entire 1>eol1le.Wlo~ltlers ild miracles were definitely
needed there, L ~~ l o t l l i r ~ giappelictl.
H o w lorqg did
t
tak e 14rqtil h e iloo r ofgr zs
C ~ N I I Z ~ I P ~
uas o i~e lze d giliiz?
The doo r was opened af te r the SS i lleri cl lccketl to innkc sure t l~ a t veryolie
was really d ead . But yo11 cou1di1't g o nea r th en, I)ecause there was still active
gas in tlie air. It enda ng ere d the lives of aliyorie w ho s tootl t1ic1,c. 1'lle cloor
was
oyenecl, the SS illan backed away, an d then the ventilators w ere turne d 11;lnd
the cloor stayed open for half an hour. The gas wafted away and we coultl
begin to work .
LVIwt
dzd >,OM see nt the i l lornent the do or of the gas chnnzber was opened?
I
saw the corpses , dead people s tanding l~ k eta tues. The od or was horr~ble ,
slnce the people had lost control of their bowels o ut of sheer fright.
Drd t ~ rorir ires haz'e a si~e cial olor?
1
clicln't notice that. We didrl' t think ab ou t the people; we thought abou t t lie
air . If we thought abo ut the people, ab out the place where w e were, we would
have gone insane a t once .
Dld it ever h npt ~ei l llat sowreone ruas still alive dfte r the doo r o f the gas
cl~airzber uils ol ~e ne d?
I
never encountered any such th ing . In my o pl n~ on , t couldn ' t h ,~ be ap-
pened. Everything was sealed an d t l ie gas couldn' t seep ou t.
Afte r a fetu da ys , drd yorr becon ze rrzdrfferent to th e srght of the
g.rs
~l~ , rnrbrr
being ol~e ned ?
I'd s to p pe d h c ~ ~ i gunian by then. If I' tl been human, I coulcln' t h, ~v e n-
dured i t for even on e minute. We kept
b e ca u se ~v e' cl o st o rl r l l l ~ ~ l ~ a i ~ i t
Dzd i t ever llappen tha t people tu l~ o arted tllezr irrrlz or~ ts z~ iel ~ erzs c11ai11-
ber were eventually tnurdereti els et~ , /~ ere ?
\When the gas ch am ber filled up and ten or tw eiily people still reiiiaiilecl
outside, al l naked, they were taken upstairs to a place near the fi~ rna ces h ~ l t
looked like a guard's booth and were all shot in the back of the ~iecl< ~
handgun with a silencer.13
The Germans shot people upstairs, near the furnaces.
J
was to ld ahou t thc
time tha t
a
Jewish family from Germany came. Back i ll Germany,
the
Gcrnian
guard had ,been their neighbor. They ate and dra nk together all that night, and
i l l
the mor ning the gu ard sh ot them all , each one separately. That 's ho w the SS
men behaved. Right a f te rwards , the Sonderkom mando i llen w ho w orked
up-
stairs carried the corps es to the furnaces. There w as ~lo thil l g lse to do; t liey'cl
been sho t right there.
Half a n hou r after the gas cham ber do or wa s openecl aiitl the veiltilation was
turnedon, we began to wo rk. We opetled t lie wi~i do wsii thcceiliilg and began to
relnove the bodies . Each of us did his own job. I workecl with the bodies.
al~ologizeor askirrg you to go into such detail . E.uactly f u l~ n fid 3,orr do
\We began t o take ou t the bodies. At first we didn' t kno w exactly l low. The
bodies were pressecl to each othe r, stuck to each oth er iike sardines.
7'11~11
hcy
broi~ght s a l o i ~g ole , a l~i tchfor l< ,nd explained , "Gral, the m I,y the loose
s kin a r ~ dug. Tha t way you' l l manage to remove the w hole body." And that 's
illst w11at we did: we rem oved the bodies w ith the p itchfo rk 1,ecausc it co~~ lci i ' t
Ile t lo~ le therwise. The gassing made the hodies st ick t o each oth er as if they'd
been glu ed. We re move d b odies w itho ut a mc)merit's 131-eak.As the gap chair?-
ber s lowly e~npt ied u t , we had mo re room to lnanel lver . We ~ o u r c d a ter -on
the concrete floor to mak e i t mo re sl ippery and t o niakc the boclies easier to
drag.
Did all o f you hawe to reinove bodies frorit the gas cl~r ~rr ~l~ er .?
Yes, every prisoner carried one body each tiine. Fol lack of space, two men
went in first. Afterward s, after a few bodies had been take11 away, the~ .ew s
room for m ore people to enter and relnove hodies. Tliat 's ho w w e div~c ed l lc
w o rk a mo n g o ~~ r s e l v e s .
W h o poured the water on the floor?
\We did. Wheneve r we felt that the floor was dry, we turned 111 the tap.
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\V/~ at ilethod did you use to rernoue the bodies?
On e af ter another , bo dy af ter body. On e, two, one, tw o, one , i tvo. I t went
slowly; it took hou rs. It wasn't so n~ et hi ng ou coulcl clo in a minute . It was like
a ware house ful l of crates that you have to take ou t , except that w e removed
bodies. O ther tha n that , the whole thing worked the same way.
D id yo u i~ l r~ eo use force to separnle t l ~ eoriies?
Yes, sometimes W e c l i d a l ~ l ~ o s tverything with a pitchfork, not with our
hantls . Tl le pi tchfork m ade i t easier to separate the bodies .
I-low loirg ciiti it take to rerlzoue tluelzty-five bodies from tl ~e ga shainber?
Twelve hour s, mayl,e even lo~i ger . didn't feel a thing; thou ght I was
dragging crates. We didn't treat
tile
corpscs with kid gloves; we just pulled
the111 as
i
they wcre inanimate obje&i.
Ho io u lere the bodie s delivered fioriz he gns cbaiizber t o th e fttrrzaced
To ca r ry the bod ies f rom the lo~ vc revel, whe re the gas cha mb er was , to the
furn aces , we needed an clcvator. \Vc packed six to eight bodies into the eleva-
tor, depending oil the size of the 1)oclics.Th e elevator went u p t o the furnaces,
a n d there they were crcn~ ntct l .
LVns it nil elec tric e/ ei l rto r?
Yes, it was sliapecl likc
a
large nlet;il table on which the bodies were zr-
r a ng e d. It w a s a l i ~ ~ o s to~rlplctcly lat an d i t may have h ad w alls on the s ides .
The e leva to r wen t a few ~llerel-s p wit11 its load of bodies an d retu rned empty.
Please Jescrii~ehe c.i.ciiratioir process.
We wash ed the bodies before cre~nati l lg hem. Crema tion took place day
a n d n i g l ~ t .T llc re , o n tllc f ~ ~ r ~ l a c cloor, they developed
a
system: they put
skinny bodies together with a fa t hocly 1)ccause fat speeded up the creln atio~l
process .14 [ t was harder with sk im y bodies; the f i re refused to burn. This is
I IOW
they cr c~ na te d odies all the timc - we re~n ovecl he bodies fro111 he gas
c1ia1nl)cr and they w cre crctnatecl ~ ~ ps ta ir s .veryone there had a specific job;
befo re the c re~ naion, they shearecl the hair off the bodies, so me one pulled out
tlicir teeth, ant1 som eon e else removed rings an d jewelry.
For t11e irzost przrt, ho ~r ~e ue r,oti were irz t l~ eg ro upha t reirroued the botiies
froin tile cllalniler after tile peo/)/e suffocated
?'hat's right, from the timc I first joined the So nder kom ma ndo until I left
Auschwitz , dragging bodies was
my
main job. Other pr isoners-I was nor
a m o n g th e ~ n - w o r k e d a t th e f u r ~ ~ a c e s .abai , for example, worked at the
fu r~ iaces . - le threw bodies into the f ire as tho ug l~ t were a facto ry iol).
\Vas cwrilntioiz t l ~ eust stuge r the process?
No t ent irely . Corpses were re~ nov ed rom the gas chamb er arou nd t lie
clock. They w ere cre~ri ated pstairs and every two or three days we re~noved
the bones fro m t lie furnaces. We deal t with this
011
days when no transports
arrived. There w as a wa reho use full of bones there . First we hacl to sniash tlic
bones until they were no large r than pieces of gravel. All that re maine d of tell
or twenty thousand people who'd come t llere over a two-weel< pcriod wa s 2
little pile of gravel Afte rwa rds we took rouncl woo dell poles wit11 Iiandlc;
arid usecl them to pulverize the bones to dust . You wo~ ll t l~ l ' telieve
i t :
tl10~1-
sands of peop le turned int o a hea p of dust.
W l ~ e r exis t l~ is ork done?
Next t o the furnaces on the ground f loor, but outs ide,
i l l
a y ar d ~ ~ n d e i -little
roof . Th e warehouse of bones, where we worked , was there , too. After we
fil lished, we picked up the ashes ant i loaded the m o nto a t ruck .
We saw the t ransports arr iving with their thou sands of pcople , and al l that
remained of them t l ie next morning were ashes. After a n~onth, e saw the
warehouse and i ts contents , the ashes of for ty th ousand hum an beings. That ' s
all that rernained of so man y people.
Did you ki o~uohut t11e Gerrtlaizs did w ith the nshes of the people the)"d
fizztrderedi
Every few days or o nce
a
w e ek , a f ew G e r ~ n a ~ lrucks with pr isoners cam e by
and took the ashes to tlic river to wipe out all the evidence. They say rhar
somebody onc e asl<eclwlint they were t lum pi~lg nto th e river, an d the Answer
was fisll food . At first, we tlidn'r kn ow wha t they'd d o w ith th e b o ~ ~ e sn d
they w ere disposecl of in the c re~n a to r ium omp ound .
A
deep pi t was dug
i l l
or e l w s iven to relnov e
he yard and t lic bolics were du n~ pe dhere until d g
all the bones fro~ilhe pit ill order to pulverize thern. t i t that s tage,
we
retnoveci
the bones from
a
c lecp pi t in the compo~und f Cr em ato r iu~ n
[IIT] ant1
w h a t
remained of tliem wa s hauled awa y in a truc k. Tliat 's wh en tltey got th e 1,r.ight
idea o f th rowing cvc~ .~ th ingnto the river and descroyitlg all the eviclence
s
that no on e would see a thing.
Horu iiltlizy pco/)le t~ oi,k edt? tile creririztorirrrii btrild irig 1u11cr.e otr rrloi.keil?
The nicn we re divided up into different jobs. Don ;nsta ~cs, few ycople
removed the bodies from the gas chamber an d others carr ied the hot lies ro t l ~ c
elevator. The bodies were dragged a long way, so different inen took c>v'cr n
the middle. A different grou p wo rked upstairs a t th e fur l iacc level.
Wheiz did you wa ke
up
ill the i?zoi,7irtrgi
At six.
i
I 'm not mistaken, w hen w e worked t lie lmorli lng shif t .
Did yo11 eat sotne tbiizg or d id yo21
g o
straight to irlork?
CVe ate som ething, but we didn't have rnuch tlrne for ~teven r l~ougil e hacl
enough foo d until th c very enel, whe11 he Russians carue. It was fo od th at th e
people who'd been taken to t l le gas c11aml~ers acl br o~ ~ gl i tit61 then .̂ l' h c
foot1 had been left behind in the undressing rooln, and every ~nenlber f the
Sonde rlionlm ando took th ings here an d there. whatever 11e wish ed.ls
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role i l l o u r t l ~ o u ~ h t s .h e G erm ans ~ ~ s e dny pret ext, even the mo st trifling, to
esecutc people on the spot, without tr ial , without wasting words, a gunsilot
an d i t was ovcr ant1 done w ith. O u r l ives weren' t w orth a thing.
Did so71re
SS
rwelr stilrrd o ut irl p~ ~r ti cu la ror their sadisni?
All of t l ie n~ ere boru sa dists, but outward ly they looked l ike angels. Once
an SS nian came to clo guard duty . He was a ha nds o~n e uy, and I asked him,
I-iow clid a ma n like you get stuck h ere?" But he turn ed o ut to be the biggest
satlist of he111 ll . Onc e he mu rdered twenry m en upscairs, on the upper floor,
near the fu rnaces, one aft er the other, with a hand gun. After each gunshot the
corpse was throw n straight into the furnace, just l ike in the Mafia. A fterwards
he washed h is hands and sa id ,
"I
just did a little work."
Th e worst satl ists of all were there. &p erso n lost his human ity there. There
you fe l t every mo nlent tha t the m oment f death had arrivcd. You were always
c~bsesscdwith the th ough t that you r t ime was up, tornorrow or t l le day after,
tha t your chances of survival were zero.
Ou r supervisor, h io l l of the SS, was so zea lous a ~ ~ c lrzlzy tha t he personally
took p ar t i ll the c remat ions. O ncc I I was ovet-hcarcl s a y i ~ ~ ghat if Eichmann
ortlered him to crelilate his falllily Iic'd d o it I Ic I-cvcalccl his sadis111at ti~lies
when he c ircula ted among rno t l~e ~. sho wcrc. ;~l)ou ro he gassed and chatted
w ith a I)oy w l ~ o ~ nhey c;lrriecl. 1 lc
cl ic l
i r wit11 I l i t r lc chr~cl<le
n
his lips. He'd
hug the boy, give hi111 o~ li carlcly, ancl try to t ; l lk the 111otIler nto hand ing the
boy to him. The n he'd take t l ie kicl to tlic pit ; l r ~ c l 1 1 1 . o ~li111 into the fire alive.
E7011 said that you spokc ordy C;rec~k i rrt / I.titli~lo. f S O , J O U did you get
ulorlg luirh the G enrrans?
r~nd ers tood fcw words , l ike los I ~ ~ l o v ct Ai.l)cil Iwork ], antreteu
[com e over here ], et cetc ra. It was e11ong11.
I li d y ou kl lo w t l ~ e e ~ r il u n ~ l h o/ J P C L ~l ~ eas in? lli tl yoti I Z I O L U I ~ i s ~ a t i t e ?
No, we watcliecl wh at was happe ning from distance. \Vc
Greeks
a lw;~ys
stootl asidc. In any case, we dicln't u nders tand t lie langl~ agc, o we didn' t get
too close to t l iem. We thought it was safer tha t way.
Did the Gerrrl(11ls etzt y o tr
Th e G crma ns t l idn' t beat us; that wa s the I<apo's job.21 Ele didn' t wan t to
beat us. I don' t wan t t o I~ lam e nyone. Floggings, f loggings. I wa s flogged, too,
but I d o n 't w a n t t o b l a ~n e nyone . I 'ha t ' s how i t was . The Icapo saw a G ernla~ l
a pp ro ac l l j ~ ~g , ~ ~ df h e d i d n ' t fl og us t he G e r n l a ~ ~sould kill him. After all,
w h a t w a s h e a I i a p o
for
I-Ie hat1 to make us work faster. There was no
argument about tha t .
\yr/Jat Imppens to
(1
ntarr
w ho
sees
s
rnarry bodies, tl~orlsairds
f
dead
pea-
ple, 711 toe t i~we?
\Vl~atwas there to d o ab ou t i t? Noth ing. We were there every day. One
month , two mo nths , e ight months
I
s a w it w ~ t h o u tecup. A/iillions of Je ws d ied
that way, like Pha raoh's slaves. \YTe didn't und erstan d the Iangl ~ilge , lidn't
know wh at we'd stumbled into, didn' t k no w a thil lg. We were l ike pieces
of
a
ship that had bro ken up. Pieces of a ship -wh at on earth are they good fo r?
We always, always saw death arouild us. This one or that o n e tvould tiic
c od ay ; y o u r t u r n w o u l d c o ln e t o mo r r o w ~n o r n i n g r a f t e r n o o n . O u r t l ~ o r ~g l l t s
focused on o ne thing only: death. We thoug ht alm ut nothing but t lenth. I leath
and waiting for death became a daily routine. . I l lat ' s I~ o wt wgs chere. \Vlint
did you have t liere, other th an de ath ?
Didii't YOU th ink yott would survive?
We told ourselves that w e werc l iving very close to death , as i f wc werc or1
death row. \Ve didn ' t kn ow when it would h appen; we didn' t kn ow a th in g. XVc
simply couldn' t t l ~i nk bou t the possibil i ty of survival. I t was better not to
think a t al l , not t o think. Sometimes 1 asked myself , "Why don' t people out
there in the wo rld E;rlow what's go ing o n here? "
Notu did you c ope with the situation?
I don' t know.
I
can' t explain i t . T ate, drank coffee, clrank rea, ancl
did
everything else among corpses, thousands ancl thousands of corl7ses. 111 hat
place, where they removed the corpses from the gas ch a~ nb ers , e also atc an d
drank-wi th the corpses . When
I
t h i n k a b o u t it today, really don' t l inow
how a person can l ive under such condi t ions . Ho w? Ho w ? Y don't knoo;.
Ho w? Godies Now aday s, when people l iving ordina ry l ives see a slngle
body, i t shocks them to the core . There we saw tens of thousa~~ds- l i t t le
children , o ld people , young ~ eo pl e , regnant wome n. The lo t A whole nation.
Did you obser ve ntly of the ~e ligiorr s ont7nirtrdiileirts in BirkelriiztZ
No, couldn ' t . I have noching against religion, but
1
was waiting for woii-
ders and n~i rac leshere and tiley never came.
W ha t can you tell rlle irbout su icides nvj o7~ g l~ e o7zcierko7 17rr,111do1.i~-
oilers?
When you don't have guilt feelings, yo11 have n o reaso n to cornmilit suicide.
\Ve w anted to live. Th e men w ant ed t o live even if t h ey h a d n o c h a n c e o f doing
SO.
In other tuords, your conscieizce does n't trouble you.
Correct.
In such
a
crirei wor ld, wa s there izny roo171 for t / ~ er i l / s r r~ u i r ' ~ ?
No , it wasn't wo rth it, but a ma n lives, lives until the day he dies.
Did you ever th ink t l ~a tou could71't cnrry o n? Did you ever zrlnilt t die?
Ycs, it happened.
A
f riend a r ~ d wanted to inhale gas the nioment
t he
d o o r
to death opened. Life wasn' t especially w orth l ivi11g then. I pln ~l~le clt w ~ t l ?
friend who worke d there with me, hut in the end we went ou t, /ay dow n, anti
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nlarch was shot without hesitation. But nothing that happened then, in the
your family used to live and tell yourself, "This is where I used to l ive with
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t lcath ~i iarcli , ould co mp are to w hat I 'd seer1 at the
crematorium.
\We r ea ch e d M a u t h a u s e ~ ~nd were sent to worli right away.
I
worked a t
G uscn Z"or a fcw m o n th s an d then I w as sen t t o th e M elk c a ~ r ~ p . ~ 'n May
~ ~ 4 5 ,lie Americans liberated us in the forest where we'd heen taken.
Catz yoit describe the dny ofyo~iri b e r u t i o ~ ~ ?
I t was bctween h lay 5 a n d M a y 7 , 1 9 4 5 . We were taken illto a forest and
were I i l~cratedhere . On l i l~crat ion ay , the So nderkom nlando p r isoner Herl ri
Jaho un died nex t to me. 7iv o hou rs before liberatiol?. I-le starved to death;
111cl-ewas noth ing to eat there. Two hours before the liberation , he died.
Th e colcl and the severe co~ ldit ion s ave me edema ill my back. When I felt
that r l iere was son lct l~ i~ igro t ig wi th me, 1 walited them to put me in the
hospital bllt
I
could n't speak the langu age. walke d to the place wher e tlie
i l ~ n e r i c a nro o p s g a th ered , l ay d o w n bcs id e t lt e t c ~ ~ tegi~ larly sed I>y Ameri-
can soldiers, an d said, "kra nk, kran k" ("sick, sick"].
'Tl~ey ound me there, saw
tile
nun i l~el . n my fo rear~ i i , nd pu t me in a
hospital in Linz, wllcre
1
was carcd for t l~ r cco f o i ~r ~ i o l ~ t l i s .hen
my
condi-
tion inlproved, I tllought it best
t
leave because the place w as unplea sant. It
sw arl il ed w i th G e r~ n a ~ l s ;l ~ o new tvhat they were up to All the Greek J e w s
who sul-vived returned to
Snlonik;~.
Hou d id y o u s14rvivo~s
. E f l f l l ?
fo Y O I I ~ ~ o l ~ t e l m t ~ f ?
I
rc tu r~ ie d o Greece v ia Yl~goslav ia .At le as t a t h o u s a ~ ~ dews returned to
Greece a t that rime ten to twc ~ity cws cvcry day, including acquaintances,
friends, and my bro ther, who'cl managcd
to
escape hack in Athens an d joined
thc partisans.*"
We had n o nioney and t h e c o r n n ~ u l ~ i t youldn ' t t lo much to help. They made
sure we go t rcgu lar i~ ieals . hose days , we s t il l ~ l iou gh t
t
was worth waiting
for all the Jcws of Salorlika to com e back. I realized tha t no one there had any
id ca w h a t h ac l h ap l> c~ ~ edn [lie extermination camps. My brother and his
fricncls once invited me l o a re staurant. As we ate, his friends asked me t o tell
them n hou t i\t,scllwitz. I hegall
to
tcll t l len): "N o one will ever come back from
there; they've all bee11 butc1ie1:ed and cre~nated."Before
I
could get three
words o u t of my mouth , my l~ro rhcrnterrupted me a s if to say, "Stop talking
with him; hc's n ot qu ite right in tlie head. Ca n you believe wh at he's saying?
that they crelnated 11uman bei~~gs?"hey wouldn't even believe someone
li~ho'clhecn there, l ikc mc. N o on e could grasp it .
After some time i l l Greece, 1 Jecitled alon g with several other su rvivors that
there wa s 11o othe r so lution for 11s but Eretz Israe l. Ou r families ha d been
dcportccl from Salonika to th e calrlps and were niurdered there. Noth ing re-
maine d. I-fow could we cont inue living there ? Imagine a place where you and
everyone-a family with four ch ild ren , fou r b ro thers and s isters , a tn o t l~ r~ , ,
father." T ha t episode in life was over fo r 11s.
We moved to Palestine in 7 9 4 6 . We reach ed I-laifa on the Iieilrieftn ,\'zo/t/, I
ship that car ried illegal immigran ts. He re wa r against tlie I3ritisl1 awa ited us.
They would n ' t let us get off the ship.
We told them tha t we wanted to live here in Eretz Israel and that we h ad no
other country, but the British forced us to go
t o
Cypru s. I spe nt three tnontlis in
a
British can lp in C yprus w ith o ther Greeks fro111 Salonika. Another cam pwas
f u l l
of Jews wh o'd co me from Rom ania a nd Po la~ ld ia Italy . Cyprus was olle
b ig refugee camp. After three o r four months , they began t o d iv ide us i ~ l io
groups in order t o give us inm igr atio n visas to Eretz Israel. Since there wer en ' t
enough visas for even half tlic people in the cam p, they decided to corldu ct a
draw. 1 w o n th e d raw an d w as o n e of he first w h o irumig rated to l'alestinc in
1946.
lBb~ilt appetzed af ter yo ~ izrr izd?
Wlleri
1
got to I 'alesti~ie, visited one of my uncles in Jerusalem , and w hat
happened i r ~ I-eece epeatcd itself. 1 began to tell the story an cll ~e idn ' t wan t
to hear a word: "Don't talk sr~l~bislilo you think
1
believe you?" Fle didn't
believe me either, an
J
again
I
was considered n~en ta l ly nsound .
He didn't luirnt o I)eliel e you?
He didn ' t wallt t o talk allout i t at all Sucll a thing was inconccivable,
~ ~ ~ co m p re l i en s ib l e .l1c11 spo ke abou t "cremations" an d ' - rn u ~ ~ d er s , "t lvas-
n't considcrcd normal . . 1wondel.ecl if
I
weren 't mistaken after all . These are
[liings that h~urna n 1ei11~san't gra sp. Well, I've been care ful sir~cel ier~ . don ' t
say a word a t hon le o r
t o
fricnds; even those closest to me do n ' t know a thiilg .
Wliy should I tcll the111 if they d o ~? 't an t to believe nie?
At first I did constructiori work. The n, wlicn the War
of
I~ tdcpender tce roke
out,
I
joined the m ilitary and served tw o years in tllc navy.
I
left the military in
late 1 9 5 0 and go t marr ied in 1951 . I have twoch i ld ren -a S O I I a ~ ~ t ldaugh ter :
Both are m arried.
Ho r ~ o yo rt cx p l a i r~ o u r su r~ iu u lo yorrrse f? \Vks i t ltrck? A11 Lrbilit?l o
srrrvil~e?
N o ,
in
fact it's hard to believe that
1
sul.vived.
1
don ' t believe i t to this very
day. When I think ab ou t thc fact t hat 1'111 alive,
I
always tell myself that I'm
living in a cam p- because therc was no way to escape iron1 there.
D o you
t ink n o t i t it
oftctz?
re
you often relt~iiztied f i t ?
There are things tha t can ' t he iorgotter?.
I
lost rr7y whole family -~norlier,
f a ~ h e r ,tvo sisters.
D o y o u
PUPT
drea171
bottt
i t a t n igh t?