A Long Island Interfaith Pilgrimage Advocacy and Resource Guide for

Immigration Justice

Take Steps for Just Immigration Reform

Events Beginning in Your Congregation Now and Finishing In Wyandanch on October 27th

Introduction

When Jobs with Justice community and faith leaders met with Congressman Peter King in August, he told us to “keep the pressure on” so that the stalled Senate immigration bill moves in the House of Representatives. Right now, the bill is on the back burner as the House deals with the federal government shutdown and debt ceiling, as well as the Syrian crisis. Immigration reform is too important to let the Senate bill die on the House back burner.

On Sunday, October 27th, Long Island Jobs with Justice is inviting people of all faiths to a “Pilgrimage for Immigration Justice” that will begin at Our Lady of the Miraculous Medal Church (1434 Straight Path) in Wyandanch at 1:30PM (rain or shine) and end about a half mile away at the US Post Office on Straight Path in Wyandanch. Every day that Congress delays, another family gets torn apart. Please join us so that we can our message strong: we need immigration reform now.

In advance of the October 27th pilgrimage, we urge Long Island congregations to utilize one or more of the resources in this toolkit that were distributed at our 2013 immigration-reform trainings. Prior to October 27th, consider any of the following in your congregation:

1. Incorporate prayers for immigrants in your services (see pages 3-4 of this toolkit)2. Hold an interfaith prayer service for immigrants (again, pages 3-4)3. Host a “We Are All Immigrants” discussion (pages 5-12)4. Collect letters to your Congressional representative supporting the Senate bill (page 13)5. Hold a “Stop the Deportations” vigil in your congregation (pages 14-16)6. Publish the pilgrimage flyer in your congregation’s bulletin (page 17)

Thank you all for your continued commitment to passing just immigration reform. We will see you on October 27th!

In solidarity,

The staff of Long Island Jobs with Justice

Charlene ObernauerAnita HalaszRichard Koubek

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Interfaith PrayersRemember the ImmigrantLeader: We serve a God who directs us tocare especially for those most vulnerable insociety. Our scriptures tell us of God’s specialconcern for the “alien” or the “stranger,” oras more contemporary translations say—theimmigrant.

Leader: We ask God to open our eyes to thestruggles of immigrant workers, for we knowthat…

All: We must not take advantage of a hiredworker who is poor and needy, whether theworker is a resident or immigrant living inour town. We must pay the worker the wagespromptly because the worker is poor andcounting on it. (Deuteronomy 24:14)Leader: God’s desire is that those who buildhouses may live in them,

All: And that those who plant may eat.(Isaiah 65:22)

Leader: And yet we know this is not possiblefor many in our midst.

All: We know of: farm workers who cannot

feed their families; construction workers whohave no homes; nursing home workers whohave no health care; restaurant workers whocould not afford a meal in the restaurant.Leader: We know that too many immigrantworkers among us are not receiving the fruitsof their labor, nor the justice required by thecourts.

All: God charges our judges to hear disputesand judge fairly, whether the case involvescitizens or immigrants. (Deuteronomy 1:16)

Leader: But our laws do not adequately protectimmigrants. Our legal and social serviceprograms exclude many immigrants. Oureducation programs undervalue immigrantchildren.

All: God tells us that the community is tohave the same rules for citizens and for immigrants living among us. This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. Citizensand immigrants shall be the same before theLord. (Numbers 15:15)

Leader: When an immigrant lives in ourland,

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All: We will not mistreat him or her. We willtreat an immigrant as one of our native born.We will love an immigrant as ourselves, forGod’s people were once immigrants in Egypt.(Leviticus 19:33-34)

Leader: To those who employ immigrantworkers, we lift up God’s command:

All: Do not oppress an immigrant. God’speople know how it feels to be immigrantsbecause they were immigrants in Egypt.(Exodus 23: 9)

Leader: And a special word to those whoemploy immigrant farm workers:All: Make sure immigrants get a day of rest.(Exodus 23:12)

Leader: To those who craft our immigrationlaws and policies, we lift up God’s command:

All: Do not deprive the immigrant or the orphan of justice, or take the cloak of the widow as a pledge. Remember that God’s people were slaves in Egypt and the Lord our God redeemed them from there.(Deuteronomy 24:17-18)

Leader: To all of us who seek to do God’s will,help us to:All: Love one another as God has loved us.

Help us to treat immigrants with the justiceand compassion that God shows to each of us.A Prayer for ImmigrantsBy Jessica Vazquez Torres

Source of Life who is known by manynames;

Over-turner and illuminator of hearts;We gather with gratitude for the earth andall who journey in it.We give thanks for the interconnectednessof all creation.

Source of Wisdom who is known by manynames;

The Prophet Mohammed asks: What actionsare most excellent?To gladden the heart of a human being;To feed the hungry;To help the afflicted;To lighten the sorrow of the sorrowful;To remove the wrongs of the injured;Let us not forget.

The Psalmist asks: Who is fit to hold powerand worthy to act in God’s place?Those with a passion for the truth, who arehorrified by injustice;Who act with mercy to the poor and takeup the cause of the helpless;Who have let go of selfish concerns and seethe whole creation as sacred.

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Let us not forget.

Jesus, carpenter of Nazareth, asks: What isthe greatest commandment?To love your creator;To love your neighbor;To undermine oppressive powers with lifegiving actions;To be in solidarity with all who suffer;To act for justice;And to teach others to act for justiceLet us not forget.

Source of Justice who is known by manynames;Let us not swerve from the path ofrighteousness that leads to just andequitable relationship.

Open our eyes that we may see the immigrant and undocumented;Whose labor enables and sustains ourliving;The farm worker, the hotel maid, the linecook, the childcare provider, the healthcareworker.

Give us the courage to stand with thosecrossing our borders;Escaping economic oppression andpolitical persecution;Seeking work to support their families;

Aspiring to participate in the bounty of thecreation;

Give us the strength to confront theprejudice and intolerance of those who are fearful;And respond by closing our bordersto those who sojourn seeking life andopportunity.

Give us the will to leave behind the safety of our sanctuaries and temples;And claim our place in the movement totransform the creation;That our voice, our heart, our spirit willjoin the voice, heart and spirit of all whodemand to live with respect, justice andpeace.

And let us not forget;That the creation is founded on justice;And that we have the moral responsibilityto bring forth justice into these times.May it be so.

These resources were originally created by JewsUnited for Social Justice and are reprinted herewith their permission. SOURCE: Interfaith Worker Justice, For You Were Once a Stranger: Immigration in the U.S. Through the Lens of Faith (Resource I: Interfaith Prayers, Pp. 73-74) ww.iwj.org

How to Facilitate a Discussion at your congregation:

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We Are All Immigrants

One strategy for getting people to change their perspective on immigration is getting them to talk about their own immigrant backgrounds and stories as a way to celebrate the cultural diversity of your congregation. Such conversations open the door for comparisons of their family’s immigrant experiences with those of today’s immigrants. (See blow for tips on “How to Facilitate a Discussion” if you need elp getting started.)

Our discussion guide can be used for a large-group presentation or for a small group of six to ten people. Not including the time used to eat, the discussion should last 1 ½ to 2 hours. (Note: It would be good to have a chalkboard, white board, or flip chart to summarize the key points made during this discussion). You will also need to duplicate and distribute pages from this Toolkit and the accompanying Educational Resources Packet as indicated below.

Here are some specific instructions on how to facilitate the We Are All Immigrants discussion:

1. Invite congregants to attend at potluck dinner at your home or congregation and ask them to bring a dish native to their culture.

2. When participants arrive, ask them to introduce their dish and the story behind it. Leave some time for people to eat and talk to one another. Begin the program with a prayer. See the sample prayers below. Using a large map of the world (which can be purchased at most office supply stores or online), and using one pin, ask them to place on the map where they were born. Then, using string, ask them to connect that place to another pin—where their parents were born. Using another color string and a new pin, ask them to connect their parents to their grandparents. You can also use different colored markers for this exercise. In most groups, an individual’s family history will show that we are, indeed, all immigrants.

3. Ask each group member to identify his/her ethnic background(s) and to briefly tell their family’s immigrant history:

a. When their ancestors came to the U.S.b. Why their ancestors came to the U.S. (religious persecution, poverty, war, political

oppression, etc.)c. How their ancestors got here.d. What legal documents were required for them to enter the U.S.? (Facilitator’s Note:

From 1924 to the present, immigrants have faced stringent quotas and legal restrictions Between 1890 and 1924, minimal legal limits were placed on immigrants such as being required to read in their own language, be free from communicable diseases, mental illness and criminal backgrounds and to show that they could be self-sufficient. Prior to 1890, with the exception of the Chinese who were excluded in 1882, immigrants had almost no restrictions on their ability to enter the U.S.)

e. What happened to them when they arrived?

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Who helped them adjust? Where did they work? Where did they live? What hostility or prejudice did they encounter?

4. Distribute “Some Common Fears About Immigrants in U.S. History…And Today” that can be found on pages ___ below which will be used to lead the group in a discussion of the myths and facts about immigration today, the assimilation of immigrants throughout American history, as well as the contributions immigrants make to the Long Island economy.

5. This discussion should help people:a. Understand the role that immigrants have played throughout history in the U.S.

economy.b. Appreciate the ways in which immigrants who are now assimilated into U.S. society

were once feared by native-born Americans.c. Identify similarities between the experiences of past immigrants and today’s

immigrants.d. Separate current myths from facts about immigrants.e. Recognize the need for immigration reform of America’s “broken” immigration laws.

6. Ask if anyone was ever treated as an “outsider”, or “stranger”, or “alien” by a group to which they belonged. Follow up with these questions:

a. What circumstances caused you to be singled out as “the other?”b. In what ways was the treatment you received based on “myths” or untruths people

expressed about you? c. How did you feel?”d. How did you react?e. Did anyone help you?f. Ask the group to identify some of the negative comments they hear people saying about

immigrants which cause them to be treated as outsiders. Here are some common “myths” abut immigrants today:

Immigrants take the jobs of Americans because they work for cheap wages. Immigrants lower the wages of Americans. Immigrants cost American taxpayers money. Immigrants refuse to assimilate into American life. Immigrants cause crime. Immigrants refuse to come to the U.S. legally the way my ancestors did.

g. Ask the group to use “Some Common Facts About Immigrants in U.S. History … and Today” and “Immigration on Long Island” to fact-check the common myths about immigrants heard today. If the group is large enough, break them into research groups to report back on these broad themes:

Do Immigrants take the jobs of Americans and lower American wages? Are immigrants a strain on American taxpayers? Has America been able to assimilate immigrants of many diverse backgrounds?

h. Ask the group to identify the myths about immigrants that their ancestors encountered, such as:

Irish and German Catholics would cause crime and threaten American jobs.

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Southern and Eastern European Catholics and Jews (1890s to the 1920s) were too different to assimilate into American life.

Asians (1880s to the 1940s) were too alien to ever fit in to America.i. Ask the group to summarize the positive impacts that immigrants are having on today’s

American and Long Island economies. How have immigrants benefitted your local community and congregation?

7. Ask the group if they think that our current immigration laws need to be changed. Among the need changes they are likely to identify will be:

a. Punishment for employers who hire undocumented immigrantsb. More visas for needed-immigrant workersc. Policies to reunite familiesd. Sensible border securitye. Addressing the status of the approximately 12 million undocumented immigrants:

Deportation Pathway to citizenship without penalties (amnesty) Pathway to citizenship with requirements: paying back taxes; paying a fine;

criminal-free record; a job; etc.f. Don’t be afraid of the topic of undocumented immigrants, but remember to avoid

language like “illegals”! Emphasize that the immigration system as it now stands is broken and does not provide fair paths to legal immigration.

8. Close the discussion with a way for supporters to “take action.” Invite them to an upcoming meeting of your local pro-immigrant group, or ask them to sign the letter supporting the Senate immigration reform bill on page ____ below.

Tips on How to Facilitate a Discussion Introductions, ground rules, set expectations, know your audience

Mirror – repeat what you heard verbatim.

Paraphrase – consolidate and re-phrase what you heard.

Draw people out – encourage participants to tell you a little more.o “Would you like to add to that?” “Please say more”

Check for clarity and accuracy – ensure that you understand the speaker.o “If I heard correctly, you said __ , did I get that right?”

Stacking – place people in a speaking order.o Breaking the stack – to explore topics a little further, always let others know that you

will return to the stack.

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Tracking – summarize the different lines of thought occurring.o “What I’m hearing is __, then __, and __, did I get that right? Am I missing anything?”

Balancing – give equal weight to the different topics.o “I’ve heard people express their opinions about A and B, would anyone like to say

anything about C?”

Encouraging – create an opening to participate without putting any one person on the spot.o “Who else has an idea?”o “Let’s hear from someone who hasn’t spoken in a while.”

Keeping time – use the clock so the group can manage itself.o “It’s 10:45, and we were going to stop at 11, is this ok or should we cut our next item

short and extend this discussion to 11:15?”

Making space – keep an eye on quiet members, be aware of body language that may indicate a desire to speak. Intentional silence is ok.

o “Did you want to add anything?

Body language – be relaxed, standing, avoid distractions (hand in pockets, drink in hand, playing with markers).

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SOME COMMON FEARS AND FACTSABOUT IMMIGRANTS IN U.S. HISTORY … AND TODAY

Prepared by Richard Koubek, Ph.D.Community Outreach Coordinator, LI Jobs with Justice

September, 2013

Fear # 1: Don’t Immigrants Take Our Jobs?

Immigrant Facts:

Historically, immigrants come to the U.S. when the economy is doing well and do not to come during recessions and depressions.

For example, during the recession of the 1850s, immigration fell from 400,000 a year to about 150,000. During the depression of the 1870s, it again fell from about 450,000 to 100,000. When that depression ended, immigration rose to 800,000 by 1880.

Immigrants historically have taken unskilled jobs Americans don’t want. Historically, immigrants have taken low-wage jobs, thus allowing native-born workers, in the

words of one researcher writing in 1912, to become an “aristocracy of labor.” In short, immigrants have done the work that native-born people would rather not do (e.g.,

canal and railroad construction in the 1800s, landscaping and agricultural harvesting today) thereby creating opportunities for the native-born workers to become supervisors or to take “higher-level jobs.”

Today, the U.S. has a serious shortage of unskilled workers. According to the Department of Labor (2004), there will be a shortage of two million unskilled

workers by 2010 and the number of native-born unskilled workers is steadily shrinking due to low birth rates and higher levels of education.

The Long Island Immigrant Alliance reported in 2006 that work visas are issued to only 5,000 unskilled workers a year while the economy creates 500,000 unskilled jobs per year. Many of

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these jobs are not desired by native-born workers and are filled by undocumented immigrants who enter the country without visas.

Fear #2: Don’t Immigrants Lower Wages?

Immigrant Facts:

Initially, immigrants can have a small impact on wages. There are economic pockets, especially in the cities and African-American communities,

where immigrant labor has lowered wages for some unskilled, native-born people. But, the 2005 Economic Report of the President found that unskilled immigrants generally

do not compete with native workers and that a 10 percent increase in immigrant workers lowered the wages of native workers by only 1 percent.

But they tend to increase wages in the long run. A 2006 study by three economists found that the effect of illegal immigrants was zero

because these lower-wage workers allow native-born Americans to expand their businesses or work hours by hiring more employees, taking on new contracts or having more time to increase their income. States with higher numbers of illegal immigrants actually had higher median wages for high school dropouts. (New York Times, April 16, 2006)

And, immigrants - particularly legal immigrants - generally do as well financially, if not better than native Americans. For example, a 1998 Urban Institute study concluded that legal immigrants, after living 15 years in New York, actually earn more money ($18,700/yr.) than natives ($18,100/yr.)

Fear #3: Won’t Immigrants Cost Taxpayers More Money?

Immigrant Facts:

Immigrants pay more in taxes than they receive in government services. Immigrants do add to the cost of some government services. For example, a 1997 National

Academy of Sciences study found that in New Jersey a native-born family pays an average $232 a year in state and local taxes to cover the net costs of services used by immigrants; this figure is $1,178 in California.

However, current federal welfare laws prohibit legal immigrants from accessing most welfare services for five years. Undocumented immigrants can never receive welfare.

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Meanwhile, the National Academy of Sciences study found that immigrants have added billions of dollars a year to the American economy. While there may be an initial cost for immigrants - especially in public education - immigrants more than make up for these costs in the productivity they add to the economy.

As for taxes, by one estimate, immigrants earn about $240 billion a year, pay about $90 billion in taxes and use only $5 billion in public benefits.

The approximately 12 million undocumented immigrants alone pay $7 billion a year in taxes including sales taxes or the portion of their rent that goes to local property taxes.

And, both documented and undocumented immigrants make major contributions to the economy. Because current immigration laws favor educated and skilled people, a 2008 Adelphi University

study found high levels of education among many Long Island immigrants, with more than 13% over the age of 25 having a graduate degree (compared with 15.6% of the total population,) and 32.3% of them with at least a bachelor’s degree (compared with 35% of the total population.)

The Adelphi University study also found that Long Island immigrants contributed $10.6 billion in purchasing power to the local economy in 2006, generated 82,00 LI jobs and paid $2,305 more in local taxes than they received in government services such as education and health care.

In addition, a 2005 study by the Social Security Administration found that legal immigrants will contribute $611 billion to Social Security over the next 75 years while undocumented immigrants contribute $20 billion to Social Security each year, a net gain for the system because undocumented immigrants can not collect Social Security.

Finally, the 1998 Urban Institute study found that immigrants pay as much in taxes as natives; New York State’s legal immigrants who constitute 15.4% of the population paid 15.2% of the State’s tax burden - $17.8 billion a year in local, state and Federal taxes.

Fear #4: Can We Assimilate So Many “Different” Immigrants?

Immigrant Facts:

Immigrants have been both welcomed and feared throughout U.S. history. Belief that the U.S. can’t assimilate immigrants is an old, unfounded fear. On March 16, 1898,

Senator Henry Cabot Lodge of Massachusetts said in the U.S. Senate that immigration should be restricted because the new immigrants, “Italians, Russians, Poles, Hungarians, Greeks, and Asiatics” were people which “English-speaking people have never hitherto assimilated, and who are most alien to the great body of the people of the United States.” All these groups are today fully assimilated.

Until 1924, the U.S. had virtually open borders with few restrictions placed on incoming immigrants. Thus, national immigration policy encouraged immigrants to “flood” into the U.S. as a much needed workforce. When people today ask, “Why can’t immigrants enter this

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country legally like my ancestors did?” the answer is quite simple: most of our immigrant ancestors faced few, if any legal restrictions on their ability to enter the United States.

Unfounded fears about our nation’s ability to assimilate “different cultures” did lead the U.S. to change its immigration policy from what had been a virtual open door to strict quotas adopted in 1924 that severely restricted immigration from southern and eastern Europe, Asia, Africa, Latin America until 1965. Prior to 1924, Chinese and Japanese were restricted between the 1880s and 1905, criminals, people with mental illness and communicable diseases or those who could become a burden on the community and, after 1917, people illiterate in their own language, had been restricted.

Today, the U.S. is not being flooded by hoards of illegal immigrants; two thirds to three fourths of immigrants enter the country legally. Immigrants represent only 12% (33 million people) of the U.S. population today compared with about 15% in 1920.

But historically, large numbers of immigrants from many different cultures have successfully been assimilated into American life. Numerous studies have shown that the children of today’s immigrants generally speak English

(as did the children of earlier immigrant families) and are rapidly adapting to American cultural norms. In fact, the Urban Institute study found that the children of immigrants grow up to earn just as much as the children of native-born Americans.

A 2004 study by the Mumford Center at the State University of New York in Albany found that 72% of third generation Hispanic immigrants speak English exclusively.

One third of immigrants are naturalized citizens, a major step toward assimilation. So many immigrants are applying for citizenship that the process is backlogged for years.

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Urge Your Congressional Representative to Support House Adoption of the Senate Bill for Federal Immigration Reform

Dear Congress Member ___________________:

I write in support of the House of Representatives adopting Senate bill (S744 “Border Security, Economic Opportunity, and Immigration Modernization Act”) for much-needed comprehensive immigration reform of our nation’s broken immigration laws because I believe that the bill conforms to these basic principles of justice:

1. Provide a path to citizenship for the 11 million undocumented immigrant workers and their families by: granting them temporary Registered Provisional Immigrant (RPI) status with a ten-year path to a green card (Lawful Permanent Resident status) followed by a three year path to full U.S. citizenship, provided they pay a total $1500 in fines, have no criminal record and pay their back taxes.

2. Keep all families together by: increasing the number of visas available to spouses and children of documented, permanent immigrants; providing a new nonimmigrant visa for families with approved petitions to work in the U.S. while awaiting their green card; allowing the spouses and children of Lawful Permanent Residents to become “immediate relatives” without a wait time for legal status; allowing undocumented children brought to the U.S. before the age of 16 (the so-called DREAMer children) to immediately obtain RPI status and a five-year path to citizenship.

3. Meet our workforce needs by: providing a separate path to legalize undocumented agricultural workers within five years; raising the number of temporary agricultural workers with legal status from 50,000 to 112,333; raising the number of temporary non-agricultural workers from 65,000 to between 110,000-180,000 a year; creating between 120,000-250,000 merit-based visas based on immigrants’ education and types of employment.

4. Protect the rights of immigrant workers by: providing workers with “whistle blower” protections if they report abuses by their employers, anti-discrimination protections and the protections provided by U.S. labor and employment laws such as minimum wage, maximum hours and overtime pay.

5. Enforce the new immigration rules fairly by: identifying through an electronic verification process unscrupulous employers who exploit immigrant workers.

6. Maintain border security enforcement by: allocating $4.5 billion for increased surveillance, personnel and fencing.

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While so many immigrants have fled poverty in their homelands, here on Long Island an Adelphi University study found that immigrants contributed $10.6 billion in purchasing power to the local economy in 2006, generated 82,000 jobs while each immigrant paid $2,305 more in local taxes than they received in government services such as health care or education. Immigrants are and always have been vital to the strength of our nation. For this reason, we urge you to support the Senate bill for comprehensive immigration reform.

Yours truly,Name _______________________ Address ___________________________

How to Organize a “Stop the Deportations” Vigil

1. Put together a planning committee that will plan and carry out the vigil. Designate

roles and responsibilities.

2. Pick a location that is symbolic and central. A church on a main road is good

location.

3. Request and collect names of people who have been deported, or are awaiting

deportation, from local community groups, churches and advocates who work

with the immigrant community.

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4. Put together a list of press who usually cover immigration topics in your

community. Be sure to send them a Media Advisory (to be send 2 weeks

beforehand) and a Press Release (to be send the day before and the day of).

5. Create a list of people you will invite to the vigil. Use all forms of invitation, not

just emails.

6. Identify diverse spokespeople to speak at the vigil. Be sure you provide them

with guiding points to address. Encourage them to share their stories and the

names of people they know who have been deported or are awaiting deportation,

7. Be creative and provide visuals! Set up a memorial, enlarge photos of deportees,

and/or make placards with deportee names that vigil participants can hold. Some

useful materials may include: candles, flowers, pictures, and posters with

deportee names and “stop the deportations” messages.

8. Make a list of prayers that participants can read at the vigil. The following is an

example:

Prayer to Welcome Immigrantsby Dorothy Day

O God,Who welcomes all his children,And embraces even the prodigal ones,Help us open our heartsAnd welcome all who come, searchingAs our ancestors did,For the promise of a new land, a new life.

Root out fear from our souls;Help us form the words“Sister” and “Brother”As we greet the newcomers.

Let us remember that,With your grace,There are enough loaves and fishesTo go around

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If we come togetherAs your family.

Give us the courageAnd the compassionTo respect the rights of allIn this country of abundance,To embrace all inThe name of Your love.

9. At the vigil, be sure to:

a. Identify someone who will greet and navigate the media representatives.

Make sure you give them a Press Packet that includes the Press Release.

b. Identify someone who will be the emcee. Make sure they have a pre-

printed schedule for the vigil that includes the order of speakers and a list

of deportee names that can be read out loud.

c. Provide the opportunity for participants to share more names and stories.

If necessary, designate someone who will be able to provide interpretation

for those who do not speak English, or who feel more comfortable sharing

in a language other than English.

d. Identify participants who would like to speak with the media.

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Take Steps for Immigration Reform!Interfaith Pilgrimage for Just Immigration Reform

"Because they marched, doors of opportunity and education swung open so their daughters and sons could finally imagine a life

for themselves beyond washing somebody else's

laundry or shining somebody else's shoes."

~ President Barack Obama on the 50th Anniversary of the March on Washington,

August 28, 2013

SUNDAY • OCT 27 • 1:30 -3PM (rain or shine)

Start: Our Lady of the Miraculous Medal RC Church (1434 Straight Path, Wyandanch)Finish: US Post Office (1569 Straight Path, Wyandanch)

We will congregate at Our Lady of the Miraculous Medal RC Church and walk together to

RSVP by October 23