1Jltgi!llntittt (!tunntil....T.S. Altona North .. 1 113 Newport 1 4440 Seaholme 1 3659 Spotswood . ....

4344 Adjournment. [COUNCIL.] Questions on Notice.

attitude of the Government towards the proposal, and he received an answer in the terms I have mentioned. I am not prepared to say anything about future action. Until one knows what is proposed, one should not signal one's punch, but the Government is prepared to take action to ensure that there is no breach of the laws of this Parliament and, if necessary, the matter will be taken before a court for decision.

I shall confer with the Chief Commissioner of Police about the matter raised by the honorablemember for Preston concerning new methods which could be adopted or additional safeguards which should be provided to combat the nuisance to which he referred. The honorable member did not tell me the address of the premises concerned but I shall ask him to do so after the House rises to be sure which premises are involved. The police will do their best to prevent this nuisance ..

, . Mr. WILCOX (Minister .of. Trans

port) .-The honorable member for Broadmeadows raised the matter of grade separation. I do not think the honorable member has been misled as to when the work may be done. Total grade separation costs have risen but the funds available have not risen proportionately. The honorable member seems to have more troubles than all other honorable members ,combined. I wonder whether 'he has the facility to handle these things.

Mr. RAFFERTY (Minister of Labour and Industry) .-The com·ments made by the honorable member for Greensborough were considerably garbled, and I do not know what he really means. From what I could gather fr,om his remarks, I do not think the honorable member has raised a matter of Government administration. The law, as it stands, is not being broken, from what the honorable member says. There is no compulsion about the law. In this free enterprise State

people are entitled ,to purchase what' they want when and where they want it, and there is no compulsion upqn shopkeepers to keep open at any particular time. I fail to see that this is a matter of Government administration, because no law is being broken.

The motion was agreed to.

The House adjourned at 10.19 p.m.

1Jltgi!llntittt (!tunntil. Wednesday, March 22, 1972.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett) took the chair at 4.25 p.m .• and read the prayer.

AVONDALE HEIGHTS LANI). TRANSFER FROM COMMONWEALTH

TO STATE. The Hon. A. W. KNIGHT (Mel

bourne West Province) asked the' Minister of A~ricu1ture-

(a) What action has been taken to have the land in Military Road, Avondale Heights, adjacent to the Avondale Heights fire station and, owned by the Commonwealth Government, transferred to the State?

"

(b) When is such a transfer likely to occur?

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of A~ricu1ttire) .-The answer is-

An approach was made by the State to the Commonwealth in respect of the land, but the Commonwealth Government has not yet determined the future of the land.

STATE FILM CENTRE. PROVISION OF FILMS TO SCHOOLS. The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY

(North-Eastern Province) asked the Minister of Public Works---

(a) Does the S'tate Film Centre discriminate against State secondary, schools in favour of registered schools in the provision of films?

Questions [22 MARCH, 1972.] on Notice. 4345

(b) Will the Education Department acquire a copy of the film "Multiply and Subdue the Earth" for use through the Audio-Visual Education Centre?

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE (Minister of Public Works) .-The answers are-

(a) No; but there is a clearly defined division of responsibility between the State Film Centre and the Education Department in provi'Sion of films. The State Film Centre lends films to community groups, registered schools, universities, hospitals and industry, whilst the Education Depart~ ment through its Audio-Visual Education Centre lends films to State schools but not to regi'Stered schools.

It should also be noted that the State Film Centre does from time to time lend directly to State secondary schools films not held in the Audio-Visual Education Centre, and this type of borrowing accounts for approximately 13 per cent of the State Film Centre's work at present.

(b') Funds are not available at present for the purchase of, this film but it is hop~d that it will be acquired in the next financIal year.

STATE RIVERS AND WATER SUPPLY COMMISSION.

DA~TMOUTH DAM.

The .. Hon.' 'B. P. 'DUNN (NorthWestern Province) asked the Minister for State Development-

(a) In respect of the construction of the Dartmouth dam, what stage have negotiations reached between' New South Wales, Victoria. South Australia and the Commonwealth Government?

(b) When will construction of the dam commence?

(c) ,What is'the estimated time for completion of the dam?

(d) What is the estimated amount of water that will be made lavailable for distribution in Victoria and South Australia, respectively, due to construction of the dam. and when will such additional water rights be available?

(e) Will the dam be of benefit in reducing the level of salinity in the River Murray?

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister for State Development). - The answers are as follows-

(a) Negotilations have been finalized.

(b) Preparatory operations at the dam site will commence in April, 19,72.

(c)' The dam is expected to be completed by 1978~

(d) Average annual supplies available to Victoria at off takes from the River Murray will increase by aboUJt 400.000 ,acre-feet. In accordance with past practice when new storages have been initiated, water rights for irrigators in Victoria will be appropriately increased in advance of actual completion of the dam. South Australia's entitlement to water from the River Murray will be increased by 246,000 'acre-feet per year-from 1·254 million acre-feet to 1'5 million acre-feet-after Dartmouth dam is completed and declared effective.

(e) Yes. Increased regulated flows in the river following construction of Dartmouth will provide greater dilution of all salt load: Also, the lamending agreement ratifying construction of DartmoUJth dam makes new provision for dilution flows for the express purpose of mitigating salinity at Swan Hill and Merbein. (See clause 22 of schedule to Victorian Act No. 7948).

EDUCATION DEPARTMENT. STUDENT TRAVELLING ALLOWANCES.

The Hon. C. A. MITCHELL (Western Province) asked the Minister for Local Government-

Do school children using public transport receive $130 a year, while country people driving a child 15 miles to a bus stop receive $20 a year; .if so, what action is the Government taking to assist children living long distances from the school bus route?

The Hon. A. J. HUNT (Minister for Local Government) .-As. tlhe, answer contains a large amount of detail, I suggest that, by leave of the House, it be incorporated in Hansard without my reading it. . Leave was granted~ and the answer was as follows:-

Conveyance allowances are generally paid in respect of-

(a) State secondary school pupils who attend the nearest appropriate schools and reside at least 3 miles from them;

(b) ,Regi!)tered secondary school pupils who attend the nearest schools of the appropriate denominations and reside at least 3 miles from them;

(c) State and registered primary school pupils who reside alt least 3 miles from their nearest appropriate schools.

An eligible secondary school pupil anywhere in Victoria may be reimbursed actual fares up to $130 per annum where public transport is used. For the use of a car their, maximum allowance is $20 per annum.

Pupils travelling on public transport who must travel more than 3 miles one way by oar to reach public transport may receive

4346 Q'ilestions [COUNCIL.] on Notice.

the car allowance of $20 per anmi"m'also provided the total reimbursement does not exceed $130 per annum.

Pupils who travel by car to reach a free school bus service would be eligible for $20 per annum reimbursement provided the distance Itravelled by car is at least 3 miles one way.

Our expenditure for the 1971-72 financilal year on free school buses for 62,000 pupils travelling daily will be approximately $9 million whereas the total amount paId in fare reimbursements including car allowances will be approximately $1·6 million.

Wherever possible school bus facilities are provided to convey rural pupils to schools but it is not practicable to provide free transport to convey each pupil from his home to school. Bus routes are constantly being amended and extended. In the past few months three new bus services have been approved in a very remote part of eastern Victoria alone.

ECHUCA HIGH SCHOOL.

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE (Northern Province) asked the Minister of Public Works-

(a) What provision is made for showers for the students at the Echuca High School?

(b) Does the Minister of Education propose to improve the position in the near future; if so, will he give details of the plans under consideration?


(a) and (b) There are no students' showers at th'e Echuca High School.

Projects of this nature may be undertaken under the Education Department's special grant scheme the usual basis of which is $1 for $1.

If the school will submit to the Eduoation Department sketches and an estimate of cost with an application for a grant, the matter will receive early consideration.

MIGRANT CHILDREN: FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE.

The Hon. H.A. THOMAS (Melbourne West Province) asked the Minister of Public W orks-

(a) What facilities for migrant education have been provided at each school in Melbourne West Province, and which schools have not yet received the complete Commonwealth assistance for migrant education?

(b) How many schools in Melbourne West Province have indicated to the Education Department that parents of children at such schools are in financial difficulties with

school fees, and how many have received notification from the Education Department that, since the families earn more than the basic wage, they are not allowed any financial assistance? .

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE (Minister of Public Works) .-The answers to these questions are detailed and statistical, and I seek leave of the House to have them incorporated in Hansard without my reading them.

Leave was granted, and the answers were as follows:-

(a) Facilities have been provided for the following schools:-

Number School of teachers

4805 Altona East 2 H.S. Akona North .. 2 T.S. Altona North .. 1

113 Newport 1 4440 Seaholme 1 3659 Spotswood . . 2 1409 Williarns1town North 1 253 Footscray 1

1912 Footscray 4 G.H.S. FOQtscray 1 I. of T. Footscray .. 2 4160 Footscray North 1 3890 Footscray West 1 3736 Maribyrnong 2 H.S. Maribyrnong 1 150 1 Yarraville 1 4812 Avondale 1 T.S. St. Albans 1 4741 St. Albans East 1 4948 St. Albans Heights 1 H.S. Sunshine . . 1 4931 Altona No'rth.. 1 4825 Brooklyn West 1 3988 Kingsville . . 1 T.S. Sunshine 2 4788 Wembley 1 2832 Yarraville West 1

The department has still to provide teachers for the following schools:-

Primary Schools :-Ardeer, St. Albans, St. Albans North, Sunshine, Sunshine Heighits.

High Schools: Footscray, Niddrie, St. Albans.

Technical Schools: St. Albans, Sunshine North, Williamstown.

(b) Applications from parents for assistance are received from all post-primary schools, and parents whose incomes do not exceed $46.30 weekly plus $1.50 for the third and each successive dependent child are eligible to receive an allowance. To date applications have been received from 21 schools in the Melbourne West Province. Eleven schools have been advised that an applicant or applican.ts in their schools have not been granted an allowance because their income exceeds the amount stated above.

Questions, [22 MARCH, 1972.] on Notice. 4347

YARRAWONGA HIGH SCHOOL.

For the Hon. A. K. BRADBURY (North-Eastern Province), the Hon. R. W. May asked the Minister of Public Works-

When is it expected ,that tenders will be called for the two science rooms for the Yarrawonga High School?

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE (Minister of Public Works) .-The answer is-

lit is anticipated th'at tenders for two science rooms at Yarrawonga High School will be invited early in the next financial year.

TATTERSALL CONSULTATIONS. TATTSLOTTO.

For the Hon. G. J. O'CONNELL (Melbourne Province), the Hon. A. ,W. Knight asked the Minister' for State Development~

(a) When does the Government intend to legislate for the proposed and much publicized Tattslotto?

(b) Where will this lotto, be established? (c) What perceritage will be paid from

the pool to-(i) participants in lotto; (ii) the "Government; and (iii) Tattersall Consultations?

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister for State Development) .-The answers are-

(a) This proposal would not inVolve any amending legislation. Under the Tattersall Consultations Act 1958 the trustees are empowered to conduct any form of sweepstake provided that they call it a cc Tattersall Sweepstake Consultation, care of George Adams" and provided that they conduct it subject to and in accordance with the provisions of that Act and the conditions of their licence.

(b) This would be a matter for the trustees to determine subject to 'and in accordance with the provisions of the Tattersall Consultations Act and the conditions of their licence. '

(c) These percentages would be in accordance with the existing provisions of the Tattersall Consultations Act 1958 under which the total amount of subscriptions in each consultation is distributed as follows:-

(i) Not less than 60 per cent is paid by way of prizes;

(ii) 31 per cent is received by the Government as duty and appropriated for use by hospitals and charities and mental institutions; and

(iii) Not more than 9 per cent is retained as commission by the, trustees, who must meet all administrative costs.

POLICE DEPARTMENT. POLICE STATION AT MOUNT BEAUTY.

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY (North-Eastern Province) asked the Minister of Public Works-

Has consideration been given to, the building of a new police station at Mount Beauty; if so, what is the decision, and when is it expected tenders will be called for a new police station?

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE (Minister of Public Works) .-The answer is-'

Yes. It i's hoped that building will commence during the 1974-75 financial year.

INDUSTRY. IN MELBOU~NE WEST PROVINCE.

The Hon. H. A. THOMAS (Melbourne West Province) asked the Minister for State Development-

What is the net value of production per year from industries in Melbourne West Province, and what percentage of this value is expended annually on new development in the province?

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister for State Development) .-The answer is-

The Deputy Commonwealth Statistician informs that the information is not available.

MELBOURNE AND METROPOLITAN BOARD OF WORKS.

WIDENING OF NICHOLSON STREET.

The Hon. R. J. EDDY (Doutta Galla ProVlince) asked the M'inister for Local Government-

(a) Is the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works plan for the widening of the east side of Nicholson Street, between Holden and Stewart streets, still in the board's programme?

(b) Are estate agents required to include on their sale notices a statement that houses and/or land are subject to rOlad-widening under the board's plan?

The Hon. A. J. HUNT (Minister for Local Government) .-l'he answers are-

(a) Yes. (b) No, but 'they should so inform pro·

spective purchasers during negotiations, and the fiact should be referred to in the contract. The fact would in any event be ascerta'ined by purchasers during the course of normal searches and requisitions upon title.

'4348 Questions [COUNCIL.] on Notice.

MELBOURNE WEST PROVINCE: RATE REVENUE: WORKS.

The Hon. H. A. THOMAS (Melbourne West Province) asked the Minister for Local Government.

(a) How much revenue is raised annually by the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works in the Melbourne West Province, and what proportion is expended in that province?

(b) What water, drainage, and sewerage works are planned for the Melbourne West Province in the next three years and the following three years, respectively?

The Hon. A. J. HUNT (Minister for Local Government) .-The answer is-

(a) and (b) Statistics are not kept in the form sought.

PUBLIC HEALTH FACILITIES. IN MELBOURNE WEST PROVINCE.

The Hon. H. A. THOMAS (Mel-bourne West Province) asked the Minister for State Development-

(a) How many acute beds, ,approved nursing home beds, geriatric beds. and maternity beds are available in the Melbourne West Province?

(b) What new hospital will be developed in the province in the next three years and the following three years, respectively?

(c) What special facilities for mental health will be established in the province in the next three years and the following three years, respectively?

(d) What special facilities for the aged are planned in the province in the next three years and the following three years, respectively?

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister for State Development) .-The answers are-

(a) The following beds are available in Melbourne West Province:-

Acute .. 387 Approved nursing home 10 Geriatric . . . . 20 (to come

into use on 1st April, 1972) Maternity 140

(b) No new public hospital will be developed in the province in the next three years. The hospital needs of the western suburbs are currently being reviewed to determine future requirements, but any development of a new hospital cannot be commenced before the completion of the Footscray and District Hospital building programme.

(c) It is proposed that an early treatment hospital and day centre for psychiatric cases will be constructed in the Footscray hospital grounds. It is in the works programme for the current financial year and commencement date depends upon the avail'ability of funds.

(d) Proposals for the establishment of a day hospital for geriatric patients and for a residential hostel for the elderly have been made but it is too early to say definitely when work on either of these units w.ill be undertaken.

FISHERIES AND WILDLIFE BRANCH.

EUROPEAN CARP IN VICTORIAN WATERS.

The Hon. R. W. MAY (Gippsland Province) asked the Minister of Public Works-

(a) Is the Government aware that European carp are being caught in large numbers in the lower Murray River and tributaries?

(b) If unchecked, does research indicate that European carp could take possession of rivers and streams in the upper Murray River and its tributaries within the Gippsland Province to the exclusion of other fish species?

(c) Has the Fisheries and Wildlife Branch taken any action to curtail the increase in the numbers of this fish in the water storages throughout Victoria?


(a) Yes. (b) Overseas research and experience in

dicates Ithat European carp could become the dominant species in any other than the faster flowing tributaries of the Murray.

(c) A major eradication programme was undertaken by the Fisheries and Wildlife Branch in 1963, but unfortunately this programme was not completely successful. The European carp has now become so well established that there is no present pros~ pect of the species being eradicated in Victorian waters.

EGG AND EGG PULP MARKETING BOARD.

ACTIVITIES AT BENDIGO.

The Hon. F. J. GRANTER (Bendigo Province) asked the Minister of Agriculture-

Has the Egg 'and Egg Pulp Marketing Board curtailed its activities at its egg pulping floor in Bendigo; if so-(i) what is the reason; and (ii) have any staff been put off?

Egg Industry [22 MARCH, 1972.] Stabilization Bill. 4349

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture).-The answer is-

(i) Yes. Curtailment of activities at the Bendigo egg pulping floor is normal at this time of the year and is due to seasonal reduction in deliveries.

(ii) Eighteen workers comprising 'a second shIft have been retrenched.

EGG INDUSTRY STABILIZATION BILL.

The Hon. D. E. KENT (Gippsland Province) .-1 move-

That this Bill be now read a second time.

Honorable members will be aware tha t commercial egg producers in Victoria and throughout the Commonwealth are facing ever-increasing difficulties in disposing of their eggs. The gravity of the problem of disposal and storage of surplus production has long been recognized by egg producers in all States, and submissions for the regulation of egg production have been made to State Governments by State egg-producer organizations and by the Commercial Egg Producers Association of Australia. As a result of these representations, the Governments of every mainland State, with the exception of Victoria, agreed to support principles of production stabilization embodied in draft legislation presented by New South Wales to the meeting of the Australian Agricultural Council held in July, 1971. However, as early as 1970, a Liberal Government in Western Australia had legislation passed to control production in that State. Although voting was not compulsory, 83 per cent of eligible egg producers in Western Australia voted in favour of the legislation. In December, 1971, the New South Wales Parliament passed the legislation on which this Bill is based. The only remaining barrier to the stabilization of egg production throughout Australia has been the unwillingness of the Victorian Government to act in accordance with the wishes of every other State Government, the Commonwealth Government and the egg-producers 'Of Australia.

Consequently, this Bill is brought into this Parliament with the backing of every producer organization, every marketing authority, and every Government in Australia, with the single exception of the Victorian Government. It cannot then be considered as other than well-considered popular legislation. The problem of excess marketable production is not new to primary production and the realization of the necessity for orderly marketing has greatly assisted the stability of various primary products.

This Bill makes provision for what is widely regarded as essential to the orderly marketing of eggs-the control of production. It is not a unique or unrealistic proposal. It will be appreciated that production per hen is not subject to the extreme fluctuations which occur in many areas of primary production, particularly in the growing of crops where production can be completely unpredictable. It is an industry in which production can be rapidly increased if circumstances warrant such action; it does not involve the necessity for diversified land use. Furthermore, eggs are a perishable commodity, the storage of surplus production thus being much more difficult and costly than in the case of commodities such as grains or wool. The cost of storing rapidly accumulating surpluses has completely eroded the benefits of increasing efficiency in the industry. As a result producers are convinced that control of production is essential for the economic survival of large numbers of efficient egg producers.

Every egg producer is acutely aware of the diminishing returns for his product, and hundreds of former producers have already been forced out of the industry. There is adequate evidence to prove that the present crisis in the industry has been caused by rapidly increasing surplus production and diminishing export market opportunities as importing countries become increasingly self-sufficient in eggs and egg products. Surplus production for the

4350 Egg Industry [COUNCIL.] Stabilization Bill.

year ended 30th June, 1971, was approximately 55 million dozen eggs. Unsold export pulp in cold storage at June, 1971, was approximately 13,500 tons; by June, 1972, it is estimated it will be 22,500 tons. These figures reveal that the. annual production of pulp is approximately 10,000 tons in excess of requirements for local and overseas markets and that little, if any, export pulp will be sold in the year of manufacture. The cold storage charge for egg. pulp is approximately 4· 8 cents per pound a year.

Therefore, the excess pulp in storage at the end of this financial year would incur charges of approximately $3 million a year in storage costs alone. After storage for two years, pulp would have incurred costs and charges in excess .of its value for export. The reality of the situation is that pulp is virtually unsaleable. Reduced rates· of reimbursement. from the funds of the Council of Egg Marketing Authorities caused by this unhealthy situation and increasing surplus production have already' had disastrous effects on the ability of State boards to maintain satisfactory price levels. The export position will be further aggravated by Britain's entry into the Common Market and the increasing determination of the Japanese Government to obtain self-sufficiency in eggs and egg products. The effect of this worsening situation on State egg board finances is illustrated by the following figures and estimates of the Victorian Egg and Egg Pulp Marketing Board:-

Average net return to producers-1969-70 35 . 08 cents per doz. 1970-71 .. 28·06 cents per doz. 1971-72 .. 24·00 cents per doz.

( estimated)

While it may be claimed that profitability is a stimulus to increased production, those familiar with primary industry will be well aware that where no avenue for diversification exists, the individual reaction of farmers is to increase production in

The Hon. D. E. Kent.

an attempt to maintain net income. The facts clearly indicate that the viability of the whole industry. is in danger and that certain failure faces a large number of egg producers in this State. This has already had a serious effect on the economy of areas heavily dependent on: the poultry industry, as honorable members representing Bendigo Province should be acutely aware. The detrimental effect of over-production is not only reacting against the interests of producers but is affecting all Victorians. In a statement on 17th Nov~ ember, 1971, ·Mr. B. Talbot, Egg and Egg Pulp Marketjl)g Board member of the Victorian Farmers Union said-

To cover the cost of· tremendous overproduction, Victorian ho.usew:ives are paying 6 to 7 cents a dozen more than they should be and they could be faced with even higher prices next year, because the Victorian Government has refused to follow other states in introducing egg production controls. The board's finances are serious.ly affected by this enormous over-prOduc~ tion and I estimate that the board wJll have to find $7 million next year if farmers are going to get even 28 cents 'a dozen. This money looks like coming out of th~ pockets of Victorian housewives.

Even the strongest critics of th~ Victorian Government would find it difficult' to believe that this Government is prepared to' sacrifice large numbers of egg producers and place an intolerable imposition on Victorian families for the sake of accumulating a mountain of pulp. The industry's independence of Government financial support is probably the reason for this irresponsible attitude. In contrast, the serious position of the industry is appreciated by the Federal Government: When addressing last year's conference of the Federal Council of Poultry Farmers Association of Australia, the Minister for Primary Industry, Mr. Sinclair, said-

Supplementary measures 'are now required to keep egg production at a level that can be absorbed by markets 'and avoid pr:ice depression through excess production. There is no use producing for producing sake. We have to look to the realities of Ithe market. This has been done for sugar, wheat and tobacco.


in a letter to the Victorian Minister of Agriculture on 10th August, 1971, Mr. Sinclair said-

If some brake cannot be put on egg production _ as a matter of urgency, the industry will be facing ,an even more serious over-suppl,y situation 'and the possibility of 'an ultimate break-down in organized marketing can not be discounted.

The egg industry has been one of the few industries which have not sought Government financial assistance in the past few years, though I understand that the Council of Egg Marketing Authorities is now considering an approach for financial assistance. The dependence of industries on Government financial support is to be avoided where possible, and for the egg industry, more easily than for most primary industries, it can be avoided by ensuring that excessive unmarketable surpluses do not continue to be produced. It is in the light of these circumstances that I introduce this Egg Industry Stabilization Bill into the House.

Part I. is a machinery provision containing necessary definitions. It also makes provision for the exemption from all or any of the provisions of the Act specified educational institutions or a specified class of educational institution. Part II. provides for the taking of a poll of poultry farmers on whether the legislation is to be implemented. The principle is that which applies under the Marketing of Primary Products Act. The qualification to vote at the poll is to be the same as that Which applies for the election of grower members of the Egg and Egg Pulp Marketing Board. It will be noted that in paragraph (d) of sub-clause (2) of clause 6 the majority of votes taken shall decide the poll. This should read to require 60 per cent of votes in favour in accordance with the Marketing of Primary Products Act. Part III. provides for the constitution of the licensing committee which is to consist of the members of the Victorian Egg and Egg Pulp Marketing Board.

Clause 9 defines the procedures for the meetings of the licensing committee. Clause 10 provides for the dissolution of the licensing committee in the event of a poll of producers deciding in favour of its dissolution. Part IV. provides for the authorization by the board of any of its officers or servants to be an inspector for the purposes of this Act. Clause 12 of Part IV. sets out the powers and duties of 'an inspector. Part V. provides for the licensing of poultry farmers. Clause 15 defines two categories of poultry farmers. The first category of poultry farmers will be those who opera ted as such immediately preceding the commencement of this legislation and owned during the twelve-month period ended 27th November, 1970, commercial egg-producing hens in respect of which the Commonwealth hen levy had been paid. This twelve-month period is recommended as the base year in conformity with the New South Wales legislation and in order that an unfair advantage may not be gained by those farmers who have more recently increased production in the hope of the application of a later base year. Poultry farmers in the second category will be those who operated as such 'after 27th November, 1970, to the date of the operation of this legislation.

Clause 16 will make it an offence to keep hens during a licenSing season without a licence to do so unless the hens are broiler-breeder hens. Division 3 of Part V. provides for the calculation of base quotas of category one -and category two poultry farmers. The base quota to which a category one poultry farmer will be entitled will be the greatest number of leviable hens owned by him during the twelve-month period ended 27th November, 1970, being hens on which levy has been paid. I might better explain this by referring to the formul'a contained in paragraph (a) of sub-clause (3) of clause 23.

It will be noted that the formula is x equals b minus c. The factor b represents the total number of all

4352. Egg Industry [COUNCIL.] Stabilization Bill .. '

hens, including broiler-breeder hens, owned by the poultry farmer at the time he submits his return under the Commonwealth levy legislation. The factor c represents the number of broiler-breeder hens he owns at that time. As levy is not payable under the Commonwealth levy legislation on broiler-breeder hens, it is necessary to deduct c from b to ascertain the number of hens on which levy is payable. The figure so ascertained will be the base quota. I might add that the return used to calculate the base quota is the one lodged by the poultry farmer during the relevant twelvemonth period which will give him the highest base quota.

The base quota to which a category two poultry farmer will be entitled will be as determined by the licensing committee, having regard to the criteria set out in clause 24. The number of hens that a poultry farmer will be entitled to keep under his licence will be called his hen quota. The base quota to which I referred a short time ago is not the hen quota of the' poultry farmer but merely one of the figures us'ed in calculating his hen quota. Clause 25 sets a limit on all the base quotas allocated to 'group two poultry farmers.' Clause 26 will require applicants for licences to be notified of their base quota within a certain period. Clause 27' will permit the Governor in Council to set the total State hen quota, with the intention that the number of hens fixed under this head, will permit the production of sufficient eggs to meet domestic requirements plus a surplus of from 10 to 15 per cent as a safety margin.

Clause 28 provides the formula' to determine the number of hens which each licensed poultry farmer is entitled to keep under his licence. This will be called his hen quota. This figure is calculated by reference to his base quota, the aggregate of all base quotas and the State hen quota referred to above. Clause 29 guaran tees that certain small poultry farmers will not need to reduce their flock 'sizes. Thus a farmer whose base quota is less than 3,000 hens


will not be required to reduce his: flock size. His hen quota will be the same as his base quota. Similarly" if the base quota of a farmer is, slightly more than 3,000 hens and as a result of the application of any reducing his hen quota would be less than 3,000 hens, then the clause guarantees that his hen quota will not go below 3,000 hens.

Clause 30 provides for the variation of the hen quotas of all poultry farmers if the State hen quota figure· is altered. This latter figure would be altered for example if there were a marked increase in consumption of eggs. If that occurred, it would be necessary to increase generally flock sizes· within the State. Part VI. provides for the constitution and powers of a review committee. . It is the function of this review committee to review the base quotas allocated to poultry farmers. The grounds on which an application for a review of base quotas may be, made by a group one poultry farmer are specified in clause 38. The grounds include adverse seasonal conditions, disease affecting h~ns,' illness and certain other grounds.

Group two poultry' farmers are all automatically entitled to apply for a review. The reason for this automatic right of review for a group .two poultry farmer is that his base quota was not assessed under any spe~ific formula and therefore it would' be virtually impossible to spell out the grounds on 'which he might base his appeal. Clauses 40 to 45 are the machinery provisions related to the workings of the review committee.

Part VII. of the Bill provides for the transfer of licences. These are treated as a surrender and re-issue of a licence. As the intention of the measure is to limit the number of commercial hens that may be kept in the State, it is . considered essential that the Bill sbould be flexible enough to permit the transfer of quotas from one poultry farmer to another.' Further, it will permit small uneconomic


operators to leave the industry if they so wish, and it is presumed that their ,quotas will be of some value.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-Am I right in believing that clause 46 of the Bill makes it possible for a person to buy licences covering the production of 500,000 eggs?

The Hon. D. E. KENT.-That is the maximum that anyone can buy.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-Then this measure protects the little fellow.

The Hon. D. E. KENT.-The measure protects the little person by setting a minimum. Basically the provision I have just outlined will enable farmers leaving the industry to obtain some compensation, and at the same time provide adequate flexibility in the scheme.

Part VIII. provides for the issue of permits to keep hens for breeding purposes. As the main intention of the Bill is to reduce the number of eggs available for human consumption, it is considered that the production of eggs for breeding purposes should not be inhibited. For example, the poultry meat industry is an extremely important facet of the poultry industry and it is essential that breeders of poultry for this purpose should not be subject to restraint.

Part IX. contains the main machinery provisions 'of the Bill. It will be noted that the costs of administration of this legislation will be borne by the Egg and Egg Pulp Marketing Board. Provision is also included for the tabling in Parliament of a report on the workings of the committee at the end of each licensing season.

At first, it might appear that the scheme involves complicated mathematical calculations. I assure' honorable members that this is not so. Basically, what the scheme requires is that a figure called a base quota is calculated for every poultry fanner. For a group one poultry fanner, this figure will represent the highest number of leviable hens owned in the

twelve-month period ended 27th November, 1970. For a group two poultry farmer, the figure will be calculated by reference to certain criteria, such as the number of hens owned by him, the amount of capital invested by him in his farm and other similar considerations.

Once all base quotas have been calculated the review committee may then review them. Once the base quotas have been reviewed it is simply a matter of totalling up all the base quotas and proportionately reducing them to the State hen quota which will be the number of hens needed to provide the State's egg requirement, plus a surplus of from 10 to 15 per cent. The figure so obtained will be the hen quota of the individual farmer. Once the hen quota has been calculated for the first licensing season, it will then be an exceedingly simple task to vary it up or down for any subsequent licensing season.

As I said earlier, the principles embodied in the Bill have the support of all egg-producer organizations in Australia and all Governments outside Victoria. The Victorian Government has repeatedly claimed that if primary producers spoke with a united voice their requests would be favourably considered. There is no doubting the unanimity of poultry farmers in support of control of egg production. Whatever platitudes may be expressed in support 'of the fallacies of so-called free enterprise, producers and consumers of most commodities realize that uncontrolled production and marketing is the lawlessness of the jungle.

This Bill is introduced in an attempt to safeguard the enterprise and efficiency of the producers of eggs, and to alleviate the burdens of consumers.

I thank the Minister of Agriculture, the Clerk of the Parliaments, and Parliamentary Counsel for their cooperation in the presentation of this Bill, which I commend to the House.

4354 Information ,'" [COUNCIL.], , Stor~ges , Bill., ,"

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture) .-1, congratulate Mr. Kent on the work he, has undertaken on, this measure. I appreciate his expressions of thanks for the co-operation that he has received. , I move- , ,

That the debate be now adiourned'.

The motion for the adjournment of the debate was agreed to, and it was ordered that the debate be adjourned until Wednesday, April 5. ' '

INFORMATION STORAGES BILL. The debate (adjourned from Octo

ber 20, 1971) on the motion of the Hon. G. J. Nicol (Monash Province) for the second, reading of this Bill was resumed.

The Hon. C. A. M. HIDER (Monash Province) .-This, relatively simple Bill is designed to put before the House a principle whiGh is concerned with the position of the individual in the middle of the 20th century. Clearly, in the past 100 years many changes have occurred, mainly in the areas of communication., Consequently, the individual is becoming something of a cog, a, 'mere unit, a numb~r, in many cases an, anonymous being in a h.uge society. ' The Bill endeavours to make the individual more than a mere unit and to afford him some rights of privacy. Although the Bill is not directed towards rights of ,privacy as such, it is designed to assist the individual to ensure that if dossiers are kept on him, those dossiers are, firstly" accurate, and secondly, limited to the purpose for which they, are kept.

Parliament has commenced to con'sider the problems of the " Big Brother" surveillance of the individual, and the collection of information on the individual, almost for the sake of collecting that information. Computers grow more wondr'ous each day and fewer people. have the slighest idea how they work. In fact many people do not know why

. t~ey work." The stage is being reached of havi~g automated computer banks which can collate informatio,n a~ tremendou~ speed and bring

in ,information from all over· the country. Allhough this is not developing to any great extent in 'Australia, in the United States of America the use of computer banks certainly is developing. One can envisage credit agents tied to a central computer bank, 'and all the information on every individual in the country being centred at that computer bank. The bank could contain more .information. than that relating to credit, and the stage could be reached where an anonymous clerk would have at his fingertips everyone's personal history, their defects, and so forth.

This' problem is summed up to some . ex;tent by Professor Zelman Cowen in a series of lectures, called the Boyer lectures 1969, and entitled The Private Man, in which he states-

In the computer age, we are' warned that our success or failure in life ultimately may turn on what other people put into our computer files, and on an unknown programmer's ability or perhaps his incapacity, to evaluate" process and interrelate information. The wat:ning has been given graphically in these words: "Bureaucracy is the only way to co-ordinate the complex functions of a, modern' economy, and therefore cannot be dismissed with a curse. Yet it is also an enormous potential source of, arbitrary impersonal power which folds, bends, sp'indles ,and mutilates individuals but keeps I.B.M. cards .immaculate." '

The advent of the computer has created the problem associated wi,th the collection of information on individuals. Parkinson's law indicates that as ~ one collects information the capacity for handling it, tends to increase' the desire to collect more information so' 'that one' can tabulate it, and collect more information to tabulate, and thus more and more arialysis is ~ncourage~ for less and less understandable purposes. Although in general the Bill endeavours to cope with this problem, it is merely a step in the right direction and Obviously must be examined with great care.

I should like to examine the importance ,of credit in society, which is 0nly one aspect of the individ~al's pdvacy and of the desire of many b~reaucrats to collect inform'ation' on

Information [22 MARCH, 1972.] Storages Bill. 4355

that individual. In today's society the tendency is for money to become less important and credit to become more important. The stage may be reached when a person will carry no money but merely a little card which indicates a rank 'and number, the rank being the credit an individual may obtain and the number being the computer number so that the debits can be put into the person's account against his income. People may end up handling no money and may merely be a number in a ledger kept by a computer which enters the debits incurred on a credit card.

Credit rating is important in the United States of America and is becoming more and more important in Australia. For this reason an individual's credit rating is very important to him. In part, the aim of the Bill is to ensure that the individual is able to protect his credit rating by finding out what records have been kept of his credit and correcting those records if they are incorrect. In some cases these records are old, inaccurate and misleading. An individual may be refused credit or fail to get a job for a reason which escapes him, but if he is able to ask the person refusing him credit or refusing to employ him why, and he is informed that 'a report has been seen on him and he is informed of the source of the report, he is thereby able to correct any defect in that report held by the information storage.

Clearly some reports must be held on individuals. Bad credit risks are a cost to the community, and it is important for the running of a society based on credit that it should be known who are bad credit risks so that bad debts can be kept to a minimum and the rest of the community, who do pay their accounts, do not have the burden of making up the deficit of those who have bad debts.

-In a free-flowing credit society' this information must be available, but the individual must have the right to ensure that the information -is -correct. By asking for

credit, the individual tacitly invites the person giving the credit to find out about him, and tacitly invites that person to keep some records of his credit performance. Therefore, if an individual is seeking credit it is not open to him to complain about records being kept. I t is part of the system in which he tacitly involves himself, but that information must be accurate and fair. At present, an individual has no way of finding out whether the information is kept, and of correcting that information if it is incorrect. Generally, the damage caused to an individual by incorrect or misleading information is immeasurable and impossible to remedy. The individual is unable to trace the information or its source or correct that information. The reputation of the individual may be in the hands of a faceless, impersonal and perhaps irresponsible credit clerk.

Sub-paragraph (i) of paragraph (a) of sub-clause (I) of clause 9 provides that the information must be relevant. Perhaps the keystone of the Bill is that no one is complaining about information being kept provided that it is accurate and not misleading, but more importantly that it is relevant to the purpose for which it is kept. In other words, 'a person's matrimonial situation or his personal habits or problems are not necessarily relevant to his credit rating. Some aspects of his personal life may be relevant and others may not. The. essential provision is that when an individual is dissatisfied with the information recorded, he is able to show to an impartial court that the information is not relevant and therefore should be deleted.

The Hon. R. W. MAY.-Would this information be available to the Taxation Department and other departments?

The Hon. C. A. M. HIDER~Generally, the Taxation Department has better records than any credit bureau because persons complete their own taxation -returns. The information would be available, as

4356 .' Information, [COUNCIL.] , Storages, ,Bill. ,,"

it is now, under the Income Tax Assessment Act. The Taxation Department has power to obtain this information, if it knows where the information is kept, so the provision would not affect its rights.

The Hon. J. W.' GALBALLY.-This Information Storages Bill includes the Taxation Department.

The Hon. C. A. M. HIDER.-No, it is exempted because sub-clause (2) of clause 2 provides, inter alia-

(2) This Act does not, apply to or in relation to-

(b) :an i~formation st~r,age from ~hich information is supplied only-

(i) under the express author.ity of an Act;

The Taxation Department operates under a Commonwealth Act and therefore is exempt from the privileges and rights that appear in the Bill. However, it would be hard to correct a tax file because it is assumed that as the individual has completed the return, the file is accurate. As the Minister for Local Government points out, Victoria cannot control the Commonwealth, no matter how much it might like to do so.

The credit bureaux have agreed that there is no objection to the clarification of an individual's rights in these areas and an individual should have the right to correct the records. The larger bureaux have indicated their desire to have correct information and if it is brought to their attention that information is wrong, it. will be corrected. Obviously th~y have as much interest as an individual in ensuring that the information kept is correct because their business is to sell correct information and if the information is out of date or wrong, they would be supplying incorrect information. Therefore, they endeavour to maintain correct records.

There are considerable difficulties involved in taking action to correct' the information kept by a credit bureau. There is the problem of

whether or not that information, is protected by privilege. The reported cases on this question are not clear, and apart from being inconclusive, litigation is quite expensive, so generally the person one would suspect of having credit problems is unable to afford the necessary litiga-, tion. If honorable members have experienced the problems associated with credit cards and the numerous misunderstandings and endless arguments over the operation of the computer which keeps the financial records of the credit cards, they would appreCiate the problems.

I know of one overseas person wi th a credi t card in respect of which the account had been paid but unfortunately the payment notice was posted by surface mail. Subsequently a notice arrived indicating that the account was overdue but by the time the computer recorded the payment, the credit card had been cancelled. The fact that the credit card had been cancelled owing to non-payment of the account was transmitted throughout America. That was not the truth as the account had been paid. Nevertheless, all bureaux had been informed that this person might be a bad credit risk. I understand that litigation is pending. That is an example of the problems that can occur with credit cards.

This is a worry that is becoming prevalent in our society where it is becoming more, and more necessary to have a good credit rating, particularly when travelling ~d there ~s a desire to resort to usmg a credIt card rather than to carry cash. I believe the Bill is a step towards solving 'the problem.

I have a few suggestions which, if adopted, will improve the drafting of the Bill. When reading the Bill some problems are apparent from the language used. For instance, in paragraph (a) of sub-clause (~) of cla,:!se 2 there is reference to an mformatIOn storage being maintained by a ~ingle person or body corporate or unlncorporate for lthe purposes of that person

Information [22 MARCH, 1972.] Storages Bill.

or body only. It could be that credit bureaux keep information for their purp'Oses only, and therefore that might be a means of exempting all credit bureaux from the scope of this Act. which is not intended.

Possibly clause 8 should be widened so that a person may apply to the court not merely because a request has not been complied with but because the information supplied by the information storage is insufficient. In other words, the person inquiring is supplied with only partial information and therefore he wishes to ask the court to order the production of the full file on the matter. Apart from that, I recommend the Bill to the House as I believe in the principles it contains.

It is a matter of some significance in today's society that an individual should be protected against credit cards and computer banks . as these are problems which will become more and more important, and the sooner legislation such as this is enacted the better it will be. At present the Bill applies not only to credit but to other information contained in information storages as well. Because of the problems which will confront society, it may be desirable to widen the scope of the Bill even further. Other h'Onorable members may, however, be able to suggest how the Bill should be limited in its effect, and perhaps it should apply only to credit bureaux at this stage. However, I commend the Bill to the House.

The Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province) .-1 welcome this Bill because it deals with a problem which, as Mr. Hider has indicated, is an important one in the community, namely, keeping and rec'ording by bodies 'Of information about individuals for business or commercial purposes, or perhaps some other purpose where the individual has no knowledge that that information has been recorded. At present the person to whom the information relates has no. right at law to have any incorrect information

corrected. The extent of the records kept in the community is not known precisely. However, Hillel Black in a book entitled Buy Now, Pay Later said- .

If your name is not in the records of at least one credit bureau it does not mean you do not rate. What it does mel,Ul is that you are under 21 or dead. The author is speaking about American conditions but that statement may well apply to the position in Australia today. If it does not apply today, it will do so in the near future. The extent of the credit business in our community is enormous as the figures indicate. The Bureau of Census and Statistics figures show that the balance owing to finance companies as at 30 June, 1971, totalled $3,975·5 million. The amount of credit provided by retailers, excluding charge accounts, totalled $364 million. The total of charge accounts was in the range of $800 million to $900 million, and the amount of loans from trad,ing banks exceeded $5,000 million. A tremendous amount of credit is advanced by various organizations and institutions in our community and there must be many thousands, if not millions, of separate transactions involved.

Every time credit is advanced a credit check is made by the organization which advances the credit so that all those transactions are on record. For example, possibly every person in this building would appear on the records of information storages because every time one goes to a bank and asks for credit some record is made. In fact, records are made not only when a person asks for credit but when he applies for insurance and other associated matters. Records are made and these records find their way into the banks of information storages.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVIcH.-The information is made available as part of the service rendered. The person giving credit supplies the information to the person who is supplying him with the credit rating. The information is deliberately fed in.

4358 Information [COUNCIL.] Storages Bill.

The Hon. HADDON STOREY.-Of course the banks, the insurance companies and the finance companies and no doubt many, if not aU, retail stores need to us'e credit bureaux.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.-Even if an honorable member paid cash When purchasing an article, the fact that cash was paid is fed in, particularly 'if the purchase price is substantial.

The Hon. HADDON STOREY.That is true. Today one wonders what happens if cash is offered because some stores are not interested in accepting the cash.

The Hon. D. G. ELLlOT.-If you offer cash they think you are a mug. You are looked at with disdain if you cannot produce a credit card. You are a second-rate citizen.

The Hon. HADDON STOREY.They may look at a cash purchaser with disdain but in many cases 'the business is financed from the profits they make from interest charged on the amount lent rather than the ·actual profit margin on the goods or services provided. Credit is not given without a credit rating and there may be a greater extension of credit W1ith a greater use of thes'e information storages. The need for protection for individuals has been recognized all 'over the world and legislation has been introduced in other States of Australia, in England and in some American States with the object of protecting the interests of the persons who are involved. At all times it must be recogltized th~l't it is a requirement of business to check a person's credit rating. If this were not done credit would be advanced to persons who were not safe risks and there could be bad debts and subsequent loss of the amount of credit extended. So it is both necessary and desirable that this information should be available ·to those who advance credit. It is important" that', the· persons-involved

should have an opportunity of knowing whether credit has been refused because of information recorded about them. The Bill makes provision for persons to check the information and, if it is untrue, to have the opportunity of having it rectified. I go one step further, and suggest that provision should be made to direct the proprietors of the information storage to inform anyone who has received incorrect information about a person over the past six months of that fact to protect the rights of the individual. I welcome the Bill because it goes part of the way towards providing this type of protection.

Some aspects of the Bill may need amendment. Clause 2 is crucial because it defines " information storage" and the bodies to which the Act does not apply. The scope of the Bill is wider than merely credit bureaux and honorable members should realize that the provisions relate not only to persons who provide information for the purposes of giving credit, but also to other persons who provide information apart from those exempted by sub-clause (2). Consideration might need to be given to the question of whether the Bill should be confined to credit bureaux or whether it is necessary to extend the protection even further.

Clause 5 provides that a person who has received information from an information storage shall inform the person, about whom he has received that information, of the name and address of the proprietor of the information storage. It may be desirable that he should also inform the person of the information that has been received so that the person can. decide whether it is necessary to take the next step-that of checking with the information storage as to the information which is recorded.

Claus~ 6 is important. It sets out what the proprietor of an information storage must disclose to a person who makes a request. I welcome the form of the clause which differs from the Queensland Act dealing with

Information. [22 MARCH, 1972.] St,orages, Bill. 4359

similar circumstances. Under that ,Act, the 'proprietor need only indicate the substance of the information recorded. The, system leaves the whole position open to abuse. The proprietor can decide what is the substance of the report and the person affected never sees precisely what is recorded about him.

Another problem was mentioned by Mr. Hider. Much of the information is recorded in computers. 'The Bill merely requires the proprietor to produce a copy of the report to the person inquiring. A read-out from a computer would tell the person nothing because it would be merely a set of symbols. Even if he were to see the information recorded on a card, he might not be helped very much because information storages use abbreviations, symhols, and various types of designations. The person may recognize only his name. A proprietor should be required, if necessary, to translate any symbols or abbreviations which appeared on a card and to translate a computer record of information into English.

Clause 8 gives an interested person a· right to apply to a court to have information corrected. The provision should be extended to set out a procedure whereby this can be achieved. The information storage proprietor should have the right to hlke part in the . proceedings so that the matter may be properly litigated with both parties represented. It would be desirable if it were provided that the court before which the matter is heard should be closed to prevent publication of the proceedings. Publication of incorrect information which is mentioned during court proceedings could be da,maging to a person's credit standing or. reputation. If it was said that ~ perfectly respectable man had been living with a woman who was not his wife, even though that had nothing to do with his credit rating, publication of the statement could be damaging to him. A person should not have to take the risk of having. statements of' that

type made public when he takes proceedings against the proprietor of an information storage to have incorrect information corrected. I have seen copies of cards on which statements of this type have been recorded. Such a situation could deter some people from taking proceedings to have information corrected.

Perhaps by accident, clause 10 imposes an upfair b,ur.den on the proprietor of an information storage. It provides that where false or ~isleading information concerning 'any person has been supplied to or from an information storage, the proprietor of the information storage shall be liable to compensate the person concerned, and so on. This means that a proprietor could be liable to pay compensation because incorrect information had been supplied to him. The liability of the proprietor or the person who provides the information should be limited to circumstances in which he negligently or wilfully provides misleading information. This is the other side of the' coin. If the proprietor is to be forced to make information available it WOUld, in normal circumstances, expose him to an action for defamation if the information is !ncorrect and damaging.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-It would be hard to prove.

The Hon. HADDON STOREY.Tha.t is so, b~t it is something with which courts must deal time and time again in actions relating to misrepresentation and so on, 'and it is often established.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-It would bea costly procedure.

The Hon. HADDON STOREY;That may be so, but the only alternative is absolute liability for prOViding false information. That would tend to put credit bureaux out of business. A proprietor cannot personally check . every item of information that is supplied to him.

The Hon. D. G. ELLIOT.-Do .you not think that might compel. hill) to refer the ·infor~ati9n to the' p~~son

4360 Information [COUNCIL.], Storages Bill.

concerned before he uses it, possibly to the detriment of that person?

The Hon. HADDON STOREY.That could possibly be the result. But, if a credit bureau had to do that with every piece of information it received, it would be involved in a tremendous 'amount of correspondence. I am not concerned with the expense to the credit bureau but the cost would be passed on to everyone who used the information storage.

The Hon. D. G. ELUOT.-It would need only a letter.

The Hon. HADDON STOREY.There would be thousands of letters each week. It is a question of the expense to the community generally. As I have said, the cost would be passed on as part of the cost of credit in the community. When one realizes the enormous size of this business, one also realizes what the extra cost involved would be. The Bill provides that a person can apply to a court to have information about him corrected. If the court found that the information was incorrect, the person would be able to recover his costs.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-A lot of letters could be written for the cost of a court case.

The Hon. HADDON STOREY.The proceedings would be in a Magistra tes Court where they are least expensive.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-Could the case not be in the Supreme Court?

The Hon. HADDON STOREY.An action for damages could be heard in the Supreme Court but, before that, there would have been an action in the Magistrates Court to correct the information. If it were found in the lower court that the information w'as incorrect, the person concerned would be well on his Way with an action for damages.

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE.-Would this apply to companies and partnerships, such as stockbrokers?

The Hon. HADDON STOREY.As I understand the Bill, it would. It would apply both to a person who seeks that information be corrected and to a person who gives information. It would cover all persons and firms. Pe'rhaps I am too hasty in saying that it covers firms because they are not legal entities, but it covers corporations and the individuals which comprise firms.

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE.-A stockbrokering firm could find its credit standing damaged by wrong information being provided. Would it be able to take action?

The Hon. HADDON STOREY.-The individuals who make up a partnership would have a remedy. Mr. Clarke has raised a pertinent pOint. Perhaps the Bill should spell out that the individuals who comprise a partnership are entitled to take action in the same way as a person or company. That matter could be considered during the Committee stage.

I appreciate the points raised by Mr. Swinburne and Mr. Elliot, but it is a matter of extreme cost to the community. The cost of verifying information would be passed on. The relevant figures show that the number of transactions is very large and it will grow. It is not desirable to implement legislation which will place a tremendous burden of cost on to the provision of goods and services on credit, when the number of occasions on which the procedure would serve a useful purpose would be limited.

If this Bill becomes law, credit bureaux and information storages will, for their own protection, exercise considerable care. If there is a suggestion at any stage that they have incorrect information, for their own safety and security they will check it or delete it rather than take the risk of being liable to pay compensation. At present, they are not likely to be sued because. no one can find out what information


they have or to whom they give it. Once it is possible for anyone in the community to obtain the information recorded about himself, these services will, of necessity, treat that information very carefully. I have indicated imperfections in the Bill, but its principles are most desirable, and I commend it to the House.

The Hon. H. M. HAMILTON (Higinbotham Province) .-In discussing this Bill, previous speakers have pointed out that our modern, sophisticated and complex business methods have required an increasing recourse to credit as opposed to cash transactions. The Bill arises from one of the great problems associated with credit business. Any prudent business man entering into business arrangements with a customer for the first time will make inquiries about him. Such inquiries are usually directed to three sources. The first source of inquiry will be other people with whom the proposed customer has transacted businessman entering into business of inquiry for the person to whom the inquiry is directed to say that his firm has been dealing with that person for many years, that he usually pays his accounts promptly, within 30 days, or possibly 60 dayswhatever the case may be. He may indicate something of the size of the account on a monthly basis.

The second form of inquiry is to seek information from a bank. Most people when entering .on a new business venture will state that they bank with a certain bank at which inquiries may be made. Banks are notoriously cautious. A bank usually replies to the effect that the person concerned has been banking with it for, say, five years, and that it considers him to be reliable in the way of trade for so much a month.

The third source of information, which has sprung up in recent years, is the credit bureau, and this is the particular source to which this Bill appears to be directed. I am not sure that :the first two sources do not require some scrutiny as well. The

Session 1972.-154

Bill does not cover the types of reports that would be supplied from these sources, but perhaps it should.

Two stories may be of interest to the House. I heard one on a radio talk-back programme. A man said that he proposed to enter into a credit arrangement and the firm concerned asked him for a reference. He referred the firm to a hirepurchase company with whom he had had dealings. The firm told him a few days later that he was a suspect credit risk. He asked why and was told that the hire-purchase company had said that he was a bit slow in his payments and missed a few of them. He got in touch with the hire-purchase company whose representatives said that it was true that they had given the firm that information. He was told that he had been a good client of the hirepurchase company and it did not want to lose his business. The company wanted to retain his business in relation to the new transaction. Certainly this requires a degree of attention.

Another story related to banks, and it was a personal experience I had. A number of years ago, as an officer of a company, I was concerned about the activities of a particular company customer and its slowness of payment. I directed an inquiry through the company's bankers who, in due course, informed me in the usual nature of their replies that the company about which I inquired was considered to be reliable, possessed substantial assets and owned the building in which it conducted its business. I was not satisfied with this reply and, in return, asked the specific question: "Is this company the company you are reporting on, or is it an associated company?" The report was again confirmed. Within three months, the company about which I had inquired had gone into liquidation; we were informed that it did not possess any assets and that all the assets were owned by a holding company. I suppose we may have had an action against the bank

4362 Information [OOUNOIL.] Storages Bill.

concerned if we had felt like following it up, but that was a case of sheer carelessness.

I believe these matters are not covered by the terms of this Bill, and I think some attention should be given to them. Nevertheless, all members who have spoken have welcomed the measure and referred to it as a very necessary piece of legislation. In this modem society, as has been pointed out, too many people are being reported on in terms of which they have no knowledge, and in terms which may be inaccurate, misleading and damaging. Not only that, but the records which are being kept about them are often essentially private records which have little or no relevance to their business affairs.

I invite attention to some aspects of the Bi1~, particularly clauses 5, 6 and 7, whIch seem to me to be the kernel of the measure. The proposition as outlined appears to be dependent on the person or body corporate realizing that a report has bee~ made about him. Having realIzed that, he then has the right, under clause 5, to ascertain the name of the person supplying the information and, in turn, upon payment of a fee to obtain a copy of the information. Mr. Swinburne and Mr. Elliot suggested that some other method could be preferred, and I am inclined to agree with them. I agree with what Mr. Storey suggested, that it would be rather difficult, every time a new piece of information was collected or added to a dossier, to advise the person concerned of the change. But I should think there would be little problem in advising a person every time a report was made on him. This does not happen very often, and it would cost only the price of a letter. The advice could be in a roneoed or printed form, simply saying that on such and such a date a report was furnished and that if the person concerned wished to ascertain the nature of the report he could contact the proprietor and obtain a copy. I believe this would be a much better approach.

The Hon. H. M. Hamilton.

I t would be preferable if the Bill provided that, instead of waiting for a person to find out that he had been reported on, it was mandatory for a firm supplying a report on a third party to advise the third party that he had been reported on and perhaps even send him a copy of the, report, which with modem methods of photostating and so on could be done quite easily.

The Hon. HADDON STOREy.-Mr. Hamilton must take into account that a lot of credit references are done by telephone and that in some places there would be banks of girls answering telephones all day long.

The Hon. H. M'. HAMILTON.-I am coming to that point. When Mr. Storey says that there are banks of girls answering telephones all day long, I feel that this procedure is not as multifarious as that. Indeed, in most organizations probably a couple of girls put through inquiries or reply to verbal inquiries. By and large there are not so many in total, and it would be no trouble to send out a printed slip informing the person concerned that a report was submitted concerning his credit and that if he wished to ascertain the contents of the report he could telephone or call. Such a procedure would put the protection of the individual beyond doubt.

The essential element of clause 5 is that the individual must first realize that a report has been made about him. I think the credit bureau should accept the onus of notifying the individual that it has reported on him.

The Han. D. G. ELLIOT.-If some goo.dw!ll was built up in that way, prejudIce would not exist.

The Hon. H. M. HAMILTON.-That is so, and 99 times out of 100 any inaccuracies would be adjusted immediately.

The Hon. J. M. WALToN.-The person who is reported on must find out which bureau supplied the information.


The Hon. H. M. HAMILTON.-That is so.

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-He has the right to find that out.

The Hon. H. M. HAMILTON.-He has a right to know that he has been reported on and the nature of the report. For this reason, I do not agree that the person the subject of the report should have to pay to obtain the information. I consider that that is his right. As I have suggested, this could be done in a relatively inexpensive manner.

The Hon. D. G. ELLIOT.-If there were 5,000 reports a week, that would cost the whole industry only $350, would it not?

The Hon. H. M. HAMILTON.-That is so. I do not want to indulge in a detailed examination of the wording or drafting of the Bill which has been discussed by several well-qualified members, including a solicitor and a barrister. I understand that, in due course, the debate will be adjourned and that the views expressed by honorable members will be given further consideration. Broadly, 1 commend Mr. Nicol for his initiative in introducing this Bill, which is a very necessary piece of legislation. 1 wish it well, and hope a measure is duly placed ,on the statute-book of this State which will also be a pioneer Bill for Victoria in this context.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE (North-Eastern Province) .-1 did not intend to speak in this debate, but I have become somewhat concerned at the trend of the debate. Earlier, Mr. McDonald expressed the views of our party and our support of the Bill. The principle which we supported and which Mr. Nicol so ably and strongly stated when he explained the measure was the protection of the rights of the individual. The tendency during the debate has been for suggestions to be made to make the position more difficult for the individual and not quite so difficult for .the proprietor of the storage. This

seems to be what is occurring, and I do not believe that is the correct approach.

The spirit of the Bill as introduced by Mr. Nicol was to protect the individual citiz'en from an organization which may establish itself for the purpose of providing information to interested persons. The modem method of storing information in a computer or a storage is probably an improvement on the lackadaisical method which has been followed previously, particularly in relation to country people. A country visitor to Melbourne may want credit for 30 days, or perhaps his cheque is not acceptable for some reason, so his credit is checkea with a firm with which he has done business over a period of years. That method is probably out-dated and it could be that the use of information storages is better. However, the individual's rights should be protected. That is what concerned me in the cross-fire which occurred when Mr. Storey was speaking. Honorable members were probably out of order in carrying on in that way, and I believe we should return to the fundamental principle of the Bill, which is the protection of the individual and his good name.

In Australia and throughout the world today many organizations seek personal information from individuals as to their record of service in public life, and so on. The person concerned supplies the information and, before it is published in Who's Who or the Herald guide or some such publication, he is provided with a proof copy to ensure that the information is correct. I consider that a similar principle should be applied under this measure. A person who wishes to establish an information storage should submit his information to the person concerned so that he is aware of what is recorded against him. If that were done, the individual would be protected.

As Mr. Storey rightly pointed out, clause 8 gives a person the right to apply to the court, and under clause


9 the court may order amendment or deletion of any item of information, and a penalty is provided. 1 do not think my earlier interjection on clause 10 was in order. This clause makes provision for the payment of compensation where false or misleading information is supplied and a person's good name and reputation in the financial world or otherwise is damaged. It gives a person the right to go to court to obtain damages or compensation. Despite what was said by Mr. Storey, persons who have been involved in 'court proceedings realize how costly and difficult they are. It takes a long time to have a case heard, and in the meantime a person's good name and reputation may have gone down the drain. A person might lose his life's savings before obtaining an order for compensation to be paid to him.

The original intention of the Bill was to protect the individual, and 1 contend that before any information is made available from a computer or a storage it should be verified by the person whom it concerns.

The Hon. W. M. CAMPBELL (East Yarra Province) .-1 move-

That the debate be adjourned for seven days.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett).-The question is, " That the debate be adjourned for seven days."

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture) .-There seems to be some misunderstanding.

The PRESIDENT.-A difference of opinion.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-I understand that an attempt is being made to clarify the position. Does the Minister for Local Government or Mr. Nicol desire the second-reading debate to be concluded tonight?

The Hon. G. J. NICOL (Monash Province) .-1 should like to refer that question to the Minister for Local

Government as I understand the honorable gentleman has taken some stand in the matter.

The Hon. A. J. HUNT (Minister for Local Government) .-By leave-and 1 say that because 1 want to reserve my right to speak to the substantive motion-it is the Government's desire that the measure should obtain the most thorough airing possible in this House. The Government suggests that the debate should not be adjourned at this stage whilst other honorable members are ready to speak. 1 understand tha t Mr. Tripovich is in this position.

The measure has been treated as a non-party measure and honorable members should have the fullest opportunity of contributing to the debate. To date, the contributions have been constructive. If at some stage an honorable member feels that he needs further time, the Government will be prepared to agree to a further adjournment of the debate. 1 believe no adjournment should be granted at this moment when there is an honorable member ready to partiCipate in the debate.

The Hon. W. M. CAMPBELL (East Yarra Province) .-By leave, when the Bill was last before the House approximately four and a half months ago, Mr. Nicol was aware that I wished to speak during the secondreading debate. I was surprised to find myself cut off at the socks when Mr. Hider secured the adjournment of the debate.

During the past week I have received smallpox vaccinations which have caused a reaction and 1 feel that it would be impossible for me to continue with the debate this evening. I have all the information that 1 require in my head, but, unfortunately, at the moment it is not a particularly brilliant head. I moved that the debate be, adjourned because I wanted to be sure that 1 was not cut off at the socks on a second occasion.


The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett).-A solution to this problem might be for Mr. Campbell to withdraw his motion for the moment so that any other member desiring to speak on the Bill may do so, and then Mr. Campbell can secure the adjournment.

The Hon. W. M. CAMPBELL.-I am quite happy to do that.

By leave, the motion was withdrawn.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON (Melbourne North Province) .-By leave, I feel that these proceedings are most irregular and I direct the matter to your attention, Mr. President, in case a similar situation should arise again. I believe that you, Sir, are setting a precedent. You put the motion by calling for the Ayes and the Noes to give their VOices, and now the House is again debating the second-reading motion merely because the Minister for Local Government was able to rise to his feet during the long delay after the vote was taken. In my view, this is most irregular. I should not like to see the debate on the Bill conclude this evening, as it was proceeding quite well. I should like my remarks recorded.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett).-I did not declare the result of the vote; I did not put it. There was obviously a misunderstanding as I saw it, and it is for the benefit of honorable members that the situation is being clarified. I think it has now been clarified and I declare that I will hear any honorable member who wishes to speak on the Bill.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH (Doutta Galla Province) .-1 am grateful for the indication that this Bill will be treated 'On a non-party basis and that the Government is anxious to hear the views of all honorable members. Undoubtedly, that is why you, Mr. President, have allowed discussion on the clauses when such discussion could have been restricted to the Committee stage of the Bill. I do not protest at your actions.

Mr. Galbally has stated the c'Onsidered opinion of the L-abor Party, but I have a personal view to express and I appreciate the opportunity of doing so.

I support Mr. Hamilton's initial remarks that if a person buys anything, it is a matter of buyer beware, and if a business grants credit, then it is lender beware. Lenders have reached the stage where they have agreed to exchange information concerning persons who obtain credit. Any honorable member who has lived in a country town knows that if a person does not meet his obligations to a shopkeeper he is extremely lucky to obtain credit from other shops. This is the result of news travelling that the person is not a good risk.

We have moved into a credit economy and roughly $3,000 million is involved in hire-purchase arrangements. This indicates the great need for those who sell credit to have some knowledge of the background of the person who seeks credit. It is right that a person should be able to pledge his good name. Therefore, the family man who has many obligations and a small regular income can avail himself of credit facilities which would otherwise be denied him because he perhaps lacks the money for a deposit.

I 'agree c'Ompletely with Mr. Hamilton, but I suggest that a person who likes to pay cash for whatever he purchases-I am one of those-and does not desire to have a credit rating, should be able to do so. Naturally, I exclude from the cash arrangement the purchase of a house, but I include all the things which are deemed to be necessities but which I perhaps have regarded as luxuries in terms of my 'Own purchases.

The Hon. H. M. HAMILToN.-They are domestic -requirements, but the measure also covers business 'Organizations.

The Hon. J. M. TR'IPOVICH.These agencies have established themselves and told business people that they can provide certain inform-


ation at a price 'and that by joining the organization they become eligible to receive the information. Furthermore, any information that business people can feed back benefits not only themselves but also other members of the organization. Whatever information is fed back ultimately benefits all businesses in obtaining information on the credit rating of an individual. As I interjected during Mr. Hider's remarks, if anyone pays cash, this fact is recorded and the person is given some credit rating.

11he Hon. G. J. NICOL.-It makes it more difficult f.or that person to obtain credit.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.-That may be. I prefer to pay cash and I object strongly to being credit rated by any organization. There are perhaps hundreds of people like me who wish to have protection against a credit rating. If a person wants to buy on credit, or is forced to' buy on credit-after all, credit is the poor man's mortgage-he expresses a desire to get credit and must accept a credit rating. These people should be covered by ~he Bill. I pay a tribute to Mr. Nicol for the work he has undertaken on the measure and endorse the remarks of other honorable members on his efforts.

The Government should appreciate that certain people do not want to be credit rated. I am prepared to accept Mr. Elliot's comment that there are fools and those Who pay cash. I happen to be one of those people who prefer to pay cash.

The danger lies not in the fact that agencies will collect information of business dealings which are supplied to them by businesses as part of their membership and for their O'wn protection, but in what is picked up from newspapers, law reports and other publicity in which only part of the full story is recorded. I remember making a complaint some years ago that a person had been credit rated and that the agency had recorded the fact that he was to appear before a certain court on a charge of

embezzlement. The agency neglected to record that when he appeared before the court it was shown to be a case of mistaken identity and the charge was dismissed. Unfortunately, the charge was recorded but the agency failed to record that it was a case of mistaken identity.

These things can happen and, as the Government is endeavouring to obtain varying viewpoints on the Bill, I suggest that the Government may not accept the Bill as presented but amend it in such a way that it will be acceptable to the Government and to the House. Accordingly, I consider that persons who do not want to be credit rated should receive some protection by not having matters concerning them included in the collection of information. If information services are establiShed, their records must be correct 'and factual and not prejudicial to those whose characters are clear and therefore whose credit rating should be high. I support the Bill and I am pleased to' see the attitude adopted by the Government towards it.

On the motion of the Hon. W. M. CAMPBELL (East Yarra Province), the debate was adjourned.

It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until Wednesday, M'arch 29.

REDUCTION OF VOTING AGE BILL.

The debate (adjourned from October 27, 1971) on the motion of the Hon. J. W. Galbally (Melbourne North Province) fO'r the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

The Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province) .-This seemingly simple Bill provides that section 76 of The Constitution Act Amendment Act 1958 be amended by substituting the words "eighteen years" for the words "twenty-one years", but behind those simple words lies a profound and important social change, namely, to reduce the voting age in Victoria from 21 years to eighteen

Reduction of [22 MARCH, 1972.] Voting Age Bill. 4367

years. It is a proposal which will have important sociological consequences in the community, and one which will alter a situation which has existed for many, many years.

In the early years of our historyand I refer not to Australia but to Western civilization-the age of adulthood was fifteen years. At the time of Magna Carta the age of majority was increased to 21 years for knights although for other classes it remained at fifteen years, and it was not until 1660 that the age of majority for all classes was raised to 21. It will therefore be apparent to honorable members that for 300 years the age of majority in the Western World has been 21 years; and in fact, it has been so since universal franchise was introduced.

In certain communities and in respect of certain Houses of Parliament where there has been restricted franchise, the age has sometimes been above 21 years. In Victoria that is the age at which a person is now entitled to vote.

If this measure is passed, between 150,000 and 200.000 additional persons will be entitled to vote at the next Victorian election.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLy.-1t is not very long since there was a restricted franchise in this House.

The Hon. HADDON STOREY.-I am aware of that, but I do not think anybody regrets the change.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALL y .-It took about 100 years to bring it about, and your party was always opposed to the change.

The Hon. HADDON STOREY.-I thank Mr. Galbally for his contribution. The historical facts are as I have recounted them. At times the press seems to depict young people as undesirable beings. They are described as "hippies", or "revolutionaries ", or as being rude and discourteous to their elders and as having no respect for established institutions, including the Parliament. They are

also described as not caring for concepts of law and order. In my opinion, however, that is a completely false description of our youth, although there may be some who are discourteous, who lack respect for established institutions, and who are revolutionaries and hippies.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-They are not all under 21 years of age.

The Hon. HADDON STOREY.-I completely agree.

The Hon. D. G. ELLlOT.-You should also have said " reactionary".

The Hon. HADDON STOREY.-Mr. Elliot may care to describe some of our youth as " reactionary". The fact is that young people today are better educated than they have ever been and the system of education we have teaches them to have inquiring minds and to question all sorts of things. Their minds have been opened by training and education to the possibilities that science and technology can offer for the enlightenment of human beings. By and large, they are healthier than their elders, and less inhibited by restraints, customs and attitudes; but they still maintain the idealism of youth; although I hasten to add that idealism is not confined solely to the young. There is no doubt that the young make a tremendous contribution to the community with their intelligence, enthusiasm and idealism, and that they can participate in our democratic process.

The Hon. D. G. ELLlOT.-1 have been wondering when the honorable member will say "but", because so far he has been wonderful.

The Hon. HADDON STOREY.-I accept Mr. Elliot's compliment. The movement for a reduction in voting ages is world-wide, and surveys which were taken a couple of years ago revealed that some countries in the world have reduced the voting age to 20 years, some to 19 years, and many to 18 years of age. Some of the countries

4368 Reduction of [COUNCIL.] Voting Age Bill.

involved do not have compulsory voting, and some have qualifications concerning the right to vote. In Nicaragua the voting age has been reduced from 21 years to eighteen years if the individual concerned is literate or holds an academic d~gree -although one wonders about the quality of academic degrees awarded in that country.

The Government of Victoria has recognized the role which can be played by young people. In 1968, the present Minister for Local Government, speaking to a similar measure, recounted the steps which had been taken to extend the privileges of persons who had attained the age of eighteen years, and referred to the fact that they have been enabled to vote in municipal elections.

The Government supports the principal of reducing the voting age to eighteen years, and has said that it will do so in conjunction with the Commonwealth, but that it will not do so until the Commonwealth acts in that direction.

There are good reasons why the Government should not reduce the voting age in this State unless it is in conjunction with the Commonwealth Government. The first is that we have a Federal system of Government and that it is undesirable to have different standards prevailing in the exercise of democratic rights in different parts of the country. If the right to vote in Federal elections is extended to persons of eighteen years of age, the same rights should obtain in State elections; but it is undesirable that an eighteen-year-old person should be able to vote at a State election but be prohibited from doing so at a Federal election. That could only lead to confusion. The Government considers it to be undesirable that there should be any inconsistency which could lead to differences in the exercise of the democratic rights of people. Having different rules in this matter would be divisive, and would allow party

The Hon. Haddon Storey.

politics to intrude upon rights which members of a democratic community are entitled to exercise.

The sitting was suspended at 6.25 p.m. until 8.3 p.m.

The Hon. HADDON STOREY.Prior to the suspension of the sitting, I pointed out that one reason why the State would not introduce voting for eighteen-year-olds except in conjunction with the Commonwealth Government was that it would be divisive and lead to confusion and uncertainty in the community.

The Hon. J. M. WALToN.-Does not the Commonwealth Constitution take care of that?

The Hon. HADDON STOREY.I am about to deal with the Commonwealth Constitution which, as it happens, does not take care of the point in question. Mr. Walton has alluded to section 41 of the Commonwealth Constitution, which states-

No adult person who has or acquires a right to vote at elections for the more numerous House of the Parliament of a State shall, while the right continues, be prevented by any law of the Commonwealth from voting at elections for either House of the Parliament of the Commonwealth.

The Hon. R. J. EDDY.-How old is that?

The Hon. HADDON STOREY.That is section 41 of the Commonwealth Constitution, which was introduced in 1901.

The Hon. R. J. EDDY.-That was in the days of the black men.

The Hon. HADDON STOREY.Some white men were living in Australia when the Commonwealth Constitution was adopted. A more appropriate question might have been: Who were adults at the time the Constitution was introduced, or who are adults today? This is the issue which is raised by section 41 of the Constitution. On one view any person who is given the right to vote ought to be regarded as an adult and that view, perhaps, is sensibly based on the proposition that a person does not acquire the right to vote unless


he is an adult in the Community. If that view is correct and if this State allowed eighteen-year-old persons to vote, according to this section of the Constitution, persons of that age would be entitled to vote at an election for the Commonwealth Parliament.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVlcH.-What is the position prevailing in South Australia and New South Wales today?

The Hon. HADDON STOREY.I shall come to that, as I have been promising for some time. If that view is not correct, eighteen-year-old persons would have the right to vote if this Bill were passed in Victoria, but they would not be entitled to vote in a Commonwealth election unless the Commonwealth Government also reduced the voting age to eighteen years. By interjection, Mr. Tripovich asked about the position in South Australia? Mr. Tripovich is asking me to answer a question which apparently the High Court will shortly be asked to answer. Certainly, I would defer to the High Court's judgment on this question, but it has not yet said anything about the matter. The issue still remains in doubt. The Sun News-Pictorial of 15th March, 1972, reported-TEEN VOTES: AUSTRALIAN LABOR PARTY BID

IN HIGH COURT.

The Australian Labor Party federal executive decided the Labor Party would apply to the High Court in a bid to enable eighteen-year-olds to vote in this year's Federal eleotion.

If the report is correct, the Australian Labor Party apparently is proposing to institute legal proceedings to decide this matter. Obviously, therefore, the Australian Labor Party does not regard the matter as beyond question but one which requires determination by the High Court.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVlcH.-In the absence of action by the Federal Government, the court will not act.

The Hon. HADDON STOREY.Mr. Tripovich agrees with me. In the present state of the electoral laws of the Commonwealth and the

State of South Australia, from which this action emanates, the matter is unclear, and it is not certain whether eighteen-year-old persons would be entitled to vote in a Federal election. The Victorian Government considers that until the Federal Government takes action it would be unwise and productive of uncertainty in our State to give eighteen-year-olds the right to vote in State elections. That the Australian Labor Party concedes this point is demonstrated by the fact that it is instituting proceedings in relation to South Australia where a Bill has been passed reducing the voting age to eighteen years.

Honorable members who examine the position in South Australia will realize that another uncertainty surrounds this Bill. The legislation empowering eighteen-year-olds in that State to vote was accompanied by a measure dealing with the age of adulthood, which is a wider question than the mere right to vote. That Bill extended to eighteen-year-olds the status of adulthood so that they should be liable on contracts and those sorts of things. This was because at common law eighteen-yearolds were not regarded as adults. However, the Bill now before the House is not accompanied by a measure relating to the age of majority. To some extent, Mr. Tripovich is seeking to anticipate the decision of the High Court, but the court's decision will not clarify the position in this State because, unlike South Australia where two Bills were considered necessary, only the one measure relating to the voting age is before this Parliament.

If Mr. Galbally's Bill were accompanied by another measure dealing with the age of majority, to that extent at least the situation would be comparable, but that is not the position.

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE.-Then Mr. Storey would support it?

The Hon. HADDON STOREY.-I am explaining that the Bill would lead to uncertainty in this State if it were passed.

4370 Reduction of (COUNCIL.] Voting Age Bill.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.-Mr. Storey is justifying his party's policy.

The Hon. HADDON STOREY.I am giving reasons for my party's policy. The Government believes there ought not to be legislation that is divisive in the community. Persons of the age of eighteen years in Victoria should be treated the same in State elections as in Federal elections. Uncertainty should not be allowed to exist in our community. Perhaps if this Bill were passed, the Australian Labor Party would institute another move in the High Court to have a determination of what would happen in a Federal election.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.~This State has sovereign rights in its own elections.

The Hon. HADDON STOREY.Mr. Tripovich has not followed the point I am endeavouring to make. If this Bill were passed it would, of course, determine the right of a person of eighteen years of age to vote in this State, but it would lead to uncertainty concerning his right to vote in Federal elections.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-If a person is entitled to vote in this State, he should be entitled to vote in a Federal election.

The Hon. HADDON STOREY.The Bill does not state that a person who is entitled to vote for the Lower House in Victoria shall be entitled to vote in a Federal election. The issue which the Australian Labor Party is endeavouring to resolve by instituting legal proceedings in South Australia is based on the question: Who is an adult person? At common law, a 21-year-old person is an adult. By reason of the Age of Majority (Reduction) Bill in South Australia, it is argued that an eighteen-year-old person in South Australia is an adult. Because no such measure accompanies the Bill before the House, the question of who is an adult will be left unanswered. Will an eighteen-year-old person be an adult

if he is entitled to vote in Victoria, or is only a 21-year-old an adult because he is entitled to vote in Commonwealth elections?

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-To simplify the matter, Mr. Storey suggests that nothing should be done in Victoria until the Commonwealth Parliament passes an appropriate Act.

The Hon. HADDON STOREY.I have told the House the policy of this Government on the question.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-Honorable members knew that all along. It is of no use camouflaging it.

The Hon. HADDON STOREY.That is a remarkable statement, having regard to the fact that just prior to the suspension of the sitting I stated that no member in this House would be surprised to know what the position was as it had been stated publicly in this State.

The Hon. D. G. ELLIOT.-Mr Storey is a victim of his environment, and he will continue to be one.

The Hon. HADDON STOREY.Mr. Elliot's voice is louder than mine and I shall not engage in any crossfire with him. No attempt has been made to camouflage anything. The pOSition of my party had been clearly indicated before I commenced to speak.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-The Opposition fully understands the Liberal Party's policy on this issue. Mr. Storey has wasted the time of the House for two hours.

The Hon. HADDON STOREY.I am sorry to learn that Mr. Galbally was sitting in the Chamber for about an hour and a quarter while other honorable members were at dinner. There is a third, a pragmatic but important reason why the Government takes this view, and that is the preparation of electoral rolls. In Victoria the rolls are prepared by the Federal Government. This is not so in Western Australia


where persons of eighteen years of age can vote. It has been estimated that to prepare electoral rolls induding eighteen-year-old voters would cost $500,000. That would pay for the salaries of many of the judges and magistrates of whom Mr. Galbally spoke last week, and it would pay for two high schools, more social welfare workers and many other matters in the administration of Victoria.

I have given three very compelling reasons why the Government favours the prinCiple of eighteen-year-olds having voting rights and is willing to introduce the principle, but for clear and obvious reasons it will not act unless the Commonwealth takes similar action. Victoria will not go ahead alone. This Government does not believe in divisiveness and uneertainty in the community. It has stated that it will act at the same time as the Commonwealth so that the people of Victoria will know where they stand, and will vote in both the Federal and State elections at the same age. While dearly the Government is in agreement in principle on this matter, for the reasons I have given it cannot support the Bill.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE (North-Eastern Province). - The Country Party will support the Bill, which proposes a change in a basic principal governing voting in Victoria. This principle has been controversial for a number of years. Practically every political party, within its administrative organizations and Parliamentary representatives has given great consideration to the subject. Throughout its organizational structure, every political party has agreed that a change in voting age is necessary from 21 years to some age, be it age 20, 19 or 18 years. Some years ago at its Warrnambool conference, the Country Party voted in support of eighteen years. Members of my party will therefore vote for this Bill because a change is necessary.

I listened with great respect to Mr. Storey's explanation why Victoria should not proceed along these lines without the Commonwealth. If Victoria believes this change is necessary, the Bill should be supported. If the Government has some ideas that it cannot act because of alterations to the electoral rolls or that the Bill will cause some confusion, it would be easy enough to amend the measure so that it could be dedared on a date to be fixed when the Commonwealth decided to agree. It would indicate to the Commonwealth that Victoria had proceeded to that point. It is a matter of which Government should decide first to take legislative action t0' lower the voting age. According to Mr. Storey, Victoria must wait until the Commonwealth makes a decision and then it could pass complementary legislation. In its present frame of mind, there is no guarantee that the present Government would do that.

Over the years, this has been a most controversial issue. The only three members who saw the last constitutional change take place in this House in 1950 were the present Leader of the House, the Minister of Agriculture, Mr. Galbally and myself. I was first elected to this Chamberwhich had a restricted franchiseon the issue of adult franchise. It may surprise honorable members, but notwithstanding the conservative Gature of this Chamber I saw that principle established within a few years. The outstanding feature of the debate on the matter was that on the introduction of the Bill by the then Leader of the House, the Honorable P. T. Byrnes, now Sir Percy Byrnes, the only speaker was the Unofficial Leader, the Honorable W. J. Beckett, and no other honorable member rose to debate it. The second reading of the Bill was passed with only one comment from the Honorable William Slater, who waited for his Leader to make some contribution to the debate, but un for-


tunately the Leader left the Chamber to get his notes and did not return until after the vote was taken.

Members of the Liberal Party, the champions of conservatism in this House did not take part in the debate, and the vote was taken. In this debate I find an amazing coincidence. You Inay recall, Mr. President, that I took you to task earlier this evening for what I took to be a wrong ruling. But I find there was a precedent in the debate to which I have referred.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett).-Order! I beg to differ.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.There were two votes on the Bill. The President declared that the Ayes had it.

The PRESIDENT.-I did not.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.Then the President gave the House a secO'nd 'OppO'rtunity of voting. Even with two votes not one member of the Liberal Party made any contribution. The day may come when they may repent and bring about another change in the voting structure of Victoria. On that occasion, the battIe went on for some time but it was accomplished without much effort in the Chamber in which it was thought that it would probably meet its fate. Even the most optimistic member did not expect that the vote would be taken without a long and protra'cted debate on the very principles which Mr. Storey has enunciated tonight.

Victoria has now reached the stage, to use Mr. Storey's argument, where the younger people of from eighteen to' 21 years of age have received a far better education than did their counterparts of the past. This has been brought about by the various media, and today, young folk take a greater interest in politics than was possible in the past. I believe that most young people are well equipped to take their place at the polling booth to record a vote. When votes were given to persons

under the age of 21 years who were members of the Armed Forces during the past two world wars, it was said that it would ruin the country. However, the temporary lowering of the voting age did not seem to hurt the country. Despite the fact that some people are fearful of young folk recording votes, I believe they have sufficient balance to know what they are doing and what is best for the future of their country. I do not judge them on the few radicals. If I were to do that, I should find that there are many adults who would be just as radical and not as capable of recording their votes as some of the younger generation. Members of my party support the Bill.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH (Doutta Galla Province) .-1 listened to Mr. Storey with interest and I can only say that having paid recognition to the proposed policies of his Leader in another place, and the Prime Minister, he has resolved his position and sought by argument to justify it. There was no logic in his argument. The honorable member argued, not constitutionally, but as a matter of survival because the Government is frightened of the vote of the young people.

The Hon. HADDON STOREY.-It was stated in one of the newspapers yesterday that the young people would vote for the Liberal Party.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.-It is not unusual for Governments to be inspired on the question of electoral reform on the basis of their own return to power. No Government has agreed to electoral reform without thoroughly considering whether the reform would give it a better chance of being returned.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-I would not say that.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.Very few Governments have acted otherwise. In the case of preferential voting in 1911, there was no demand but there was a desire by the Government to introduce the measure because it would give it


more favourable electoral results. A similar measure to the present Bill was introduced by Mr. Galbally in 1968 and the present Minister for Local Government adopted it.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-And earlier measures.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.That is so. The present Minister for Local Government said that the measure had the full support of the Government. Mr. Storey supported this viewpoint tonight but he said also that the matter must be considered from other aspects and tha t any action must be uniform between the States and the Commonwealth. In relation to the court challenge in South Australia, the Labor Party is trying to drive the Liberal Government in the Federal sphere away from its outmoded ideas and into the twentieth century. The Federal Government grants no electoral advantage or reform unless it is absolutely forced to do so. The Minister for Local Government stated in 1968 that the Government would consider reducing the voting age to eighteen years. The Premier is on record as favouring the proposal in 1968. Until about nine months ago the policy of the Federal Government was also to reduce the voting age but then the Premier of Victoria and the Prime Minister fell foul of the younger generation. A big gap exists between the leaders of the Liberal Party in the State and Federal spheres and the younger generation. I do not think that there is much advantage in my repeating the history associated with this situation.

It is true that the youth of today are better educated than the young people of yesterday. Education is a p'art substitute for experience, and it enables youth to benefit from the experience of others. The youth of today have the opportunity of gaining a wealth of experience because of the education that is available to them. I suggest that they are quite capable of making decisions on the casting of an electoral vote.

Mr. Storey argued on the subject of costs. I have never before heard such a stupid argument. I draw the attention of Mr. Storey to the item relating to electoral expenses on page 8 of the Estima tes of the Receipts and Payments of the Consolidated Fund. Victoria's share of the cost of the common rolls for 1970-71 was $315,147, and its share of the estimated cost for 1971-72 is $280,000.

The Han. HADDON STOREY.-But Victoria has to do the whole of the rolls.

The Han. J. M. TRIPOVICH.-That is right, for 150,000 people.

The Han. MURRAY BYRNE.-New rolls would be necessary.

The Han. J. M. TRIPOVICH.-It would necessitate the completion of 150,000 to 200,000 electoral cards, which would not be very costly. They would be collated by the Federal officers and compiled in a separate roll, in the same way as a separate roll used to be kept for the Legislative Council. The proportionate cost of preparing the roll would not be anything like the amount suggested by Mr. Storey.

I commend the proposition to the House and I regret that the Government did not take a constructive view of this measure as it did with the previous measure. Why should not these young people have a vote? The people in the young Liberal movement consider themselves capable of expressing a view on franchise, and they should not be told that they do not know anything and that they are immature. Why has the Liberal Party changed its attitude on this question?

The Han. HADDON STOREY.-Because we do not have common rolls with the Commonwealth.

The Han. J. M. TRIPOVICH.-In the days when the honorable member's predecessors said that they hoped they would never see the hobnailed boots of the Labor Party cross the floor of the House- that is not going


back a hundred years-the Government was quite capable of keeping a separate roll and paying for it.

The Hon. 1. A. SWINBURNE.-And wanted to keep it.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.-Yes. But for 'th'e Country Party coming to the aid of the Labor Party in 1950, the Government would still have been justifying the keeping of a separate roll for Victoria. What did it cost in those days? If Mr. Storey examines the proportion of the total cost of the separation of the roll and associates that with $500,000, the total cost of maintaining the general roll must have been about eight times more than it was. That is really the strength of the honorable member's argument. Mr. Storey is grasping at straws.

I commend Mr. Swinburne on his brevity when speaking on this measure. The only additional argument to what my Leader put has been Mr. Storey's argument on the subject of cost. That argument has been well and truly torn to pieces. The attitude th'at has been taken by the Bolte Administration-not the Liberal Party--has been against the reduction of the voting age because the honorable gentleman 'is fearful of the young people's vote. If members of the Government party wish to deny these people the vote, they should not pose as democrats in this society. It 1s political hypocrisy, and the Bolte Administration must wear this label.

The Liberal Party as an organization believes that the eighteen to twenty-year-olds should have a vote. The Federal Liberal Party, spelt with a small or a capital " L ", believes in these young people having a vote, but because Mr. McMahon and Sir Henry Bolte have alienated these young people by 'their treatment over past years on the question of conscription for war, the recognition of their rights as ordinary human beings in the schools and colleges, the way money has been denied them and the lack of opportunities for eighteen to

twenty-year-olds who have graduated in various subjects to obtain a job today, the reduction in the voting age is not being supported by the Liberal Party. To these young people, Liberalism-if it can be called thatstinks.

The Hon. H. R. W ARD.-Get the unionists to have just one job instead of two, and there would be full employment.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.That is an old argument.

The Hon. H. R. W ARD.-It is not a bad one.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.-Billy Hughes used that argument when he ratted on the Labor Party.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett).-Order! 1 can see no relation in that comment to the Bill.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.-Mr. Storey's argument was designed to justify the decision which has been made by the Premier and the Prime M:jnister. This is completely wrong. The Labor Party 'in South Australia is prepared to admit that an eighteenyear-old is an adult, 'and this Government should be prepared tQi admit it. A young man of eighteen years is old enough to fight and to take on all the obligations of life, but when it comes to his taking part in the election of a Government, the Victorian Government is fearful of the result. The Labor Party supports the Bill and sincerely hopes that it will be passed.

The Hon. W. G. FRY (Higinbotham Province) .-1 listened to Mr. TripoV'ich with interest, and I, for one, cannot accept that the Government is frightened of the votes of the young people. 1 have spent much time in the company of young members of the Liberal Party, and 1 say that at present in Victoria the young Liberal movement is probably stronger than ever. Some 30 or 40 of these youngsters have met in my home 'and in other 'houses, and 1 have asked them what they want, and not


what m'any older people want to force on them. That 'is not a specious argument.

It is some time since the crucifixion episode occurred at Monash University. At that time there was a great deal of student uproar at the university. Approximately 9,000 students had to decide all the vital 'issues and what part the students would play in the administration of the university. It was decided to put to the vote whether there should be autonomy at the university. The s~udents were invited to attend a meeting and express their views. Of the 9,000 students, only a few more than 2,000 attended. That was the extent of their interest 'in a matter of vital importance to them. It has been said that these young people are clamouring for a vote. Tha t is nonsense. They are not. Many of the astute political brains in Australia are trying to conjure up this idea. I am not sure the young people want a vote. I asked one group 'of young people how many of them wanted a vote. With a great deal of common sense they said that they felt their job at university and as young people was to obtain educational qualifications, get on with their apprenticeships, and worry ·about getting a vote when they got 'Out into life and took their place in the world. I t is amazing that if all the eighteen to twentyyear-olds want to vote so badly, as has been stated, there 'has not been a great deal of ferment in the community.

They have become invDlved in many issues regarding teachers, the right for embassies to be in Australia, and the Vie'tnam questiDn. There have been moratDriums and protest marches ;attended predDminantly by young people, but there has nDt been one prQtest meeting in Melbourne on the reduction of the vDting age to eighteen years.

We do not want in Victoria a situation similar to that in South Australia as outlined by Mr. Storey. The Premier is clear on what he will

do on this issue and honorable members are aware of that. There is no prejudice against the eighteen to twenty-year-olds. Long before other Governments, especially the South Australian Government, saw fit to introduce the vote for eighteen to twenty-year-olds, the BDlte Government permitted them to vote at municipal elections. This has worked successfully. I have a great deal of confidence in the yDung people of Victoria. I. repudiate utterly what Mr. Tripovich says as I know from talking to young people· that because of their commitments to the banks and other institutions they would not dare try to upset the economy of this State by having a punt on the Socialist "boys". In my opinion the views of young people are very soundly based and I repudiate the argument put forward by Mr. Tripovich.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON (Melbourne North Province) .-It is true to say that the young people of today are better educated, more mature and more interested in politics than any generation that has gone before them. Continuing to deny them a vote will only make them disillusioned with our democratic system..

The Hon. W. G. FRY.-They will get a vote in due course.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-They were promised it in 1968 by Mr. Gorton. They were also promised it by Sir Arthur Rylah.

The Hon. H. R. W ARD.-When was he Premier?

The Hon. J. M. W ALTON.-He was Acting Premier at the time and if the Acting Premier makes a promise to the electorate that something will be carried out, then it should be carried out. The fact that the person who made the promise was not the Premier should not alter the promise to the electorate. Mr. Gorton lost favour with his Federal colleagues and was displaced as Prime Minister but that ShDUld not affect the undertaking he gave before the last election.

4376 Reduction of [COUNCIL.} Voting Age Bill.

The Hon. G. J. NICOL.-Why not? The Hon. J. M. WALTON.

Apparently, according to Mr. Nicol, if it is desired to alter policy after an election, all that is needed is a change of leadership!

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE.-You are an expert at that.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-I assert that Mr. McMahon will not go into the next election as Prime Minister of this country. Then we will find who are the experts at changing their leaders. The Federal Liberal Party has found it difficult to produce one Leader in the past ten years. In fact the party is falling down around its members' ears.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett}.-Order! These comments are rather irrelevant.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-I apologize if I have been led astray by Ministers of the Crown. Sir Henry Bolte now says that he is having second thoughts about giving eighteen-year-olds a vote. The reason why he is having second thoughts is that in the past twelve months a l,ot of these young people have taken part in demonstrations.

The Hon. G. J. NICOL.-Rubbish!

The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-That is what the honorable gentleman said. Those are his own words and that is why he is having second thoughts. These young people have taken an active interest in what is going on in the community and he believes., therefore, that they should not be given a vote. I say that that is the very reason why they should be given a vote. The Commonwealth Government is prepared to give them a rifle and send them off to Vietnam where they may lose their lives or come back maimed for life, but it will not give them a vote. The Government does not know whether the eighteenyear-olds should have a vote, but it will conscript them and send them off

to fight for some mad cause. They are not allowed a vote, yet they are allowed to go off to Vietnam and run the risk of losing their lives.

The Hon. H. R. WARD.-That is not a State matter.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-All of a sudden honorable members are admitting the existence of a Commonwealth Government. A little earlier Mr. Storey spent some time talking about the activity of the Federal Government and he informed honorable members in this Chamber at length about what the Federal Government thinks in regard to this matter. Victoria can do it alone, as it has on a number of other matters. We do not have to wait for the Commonwealth Government to give the eighteenyear-olds a vote. What if it costs half a million dollars! I know it will not, but what if it did-is not democracy worth that much? Nowadays the eighteen-year-old is three times as intelligent about polities as honorable members were at the age of eighteen. They are taught about politics in school and encouraged to find out all they can. They are encouraged to take part in demonstrations to show that they are concerned about where our community is going these days. They are taking an active part in the affairs of the community but the Government will not give them a vote because it knows they would vote against the Liberal Party.

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE.-On what do you base this proposition?

The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-In reply to the Minister of Public Works I have no greater authority than a report of the Liberal Party conference which states-

A speaker against the motion said a poll had shown that only 23 per cent of the eighteen to twenty age group would vote for the Liberal Party in an election. Over 52 per cent would vote for the A.L.P.

That was stated by a member of the Liberal p.arty.

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE.-What is hi'S name?


The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-His name is Mr. Hardie. I know that the Minister of Public Works does not care what Mr. Hardie or any other member said at the Liberal Party conference, because the Government enjoys the luxury of being able to do and say what it likes in this place. The Government does not accept the will of the people. Its fundamental object is to stay in power and it does not care what course it follows in achieving this.

Tonight almost every honorable member will say that young persons who have reached eighteen years of age should have a vote. The eighteenyear-old has been given a vote in the municipal field but when it comes to giving a vote in the State field the Government says that it is not yet time. After all, the Government lets people drive motor cars on the roads at eighteen, lets them drink and as I said before, sends them off to fight for their country but 'it will not give them a vote. They are also allowed to sign contracts and other legal documents but still the Government will not give them a vote. What other reason can the Government have, except spending half a million dolla'rs necessary to enrol eighteenyear-aIds?

I am sure Mr. Storey knows in his heart that what he said tonight is not right; he could not believe in what he said or in what Mr. Fry said.

Honorable members interjecting.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett).-I call for order on both sides of the House.

The Hon. G. J. NIcoL.-Tell us what age they are when they start their national service training?

The PRESIDENT.-Order! The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-Honor·

able members say that the young people of today are not interested in what is going on in the community. That is a lot of rubbish.

The Hon. W. G. FRv.-They are interested, and you are talking a lot of rubbish.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-I am pleased to hear Mr. Fry say that. If they are interested, then I am sure he will agree that they 'are more interested than many adults. Many adults could not care how they vote at election time and yet these eighteen-year-olds who are taught about politics at school in their education programme and are more interested, are continually denied the opportunity of being allowed to participate in the election of a Government. Because they have been attending protests and demonstrations, the Government says that they cannot be given a vote. Before he retired because of ill health, Sir Arthur Rylah said that this Government would give the eighteen-yearolds a vote.

The Hon. W. G. FRv.-We are going to give them a vote.

The Hon. J. M. W ALTON.-But the question is when. There is not a person or a political party in this community who has said that the eighteen-year-old should not be given a vote. I know of no one who has said they should not be given a vote, but of course from a political point of view, and I reiterate that this is the only way in which the Government can be seen to look at this, the eighteen-year-olds do not have a say. Anyone above the age of 21 years does not care whether the eighteenyear-old is given a vote. The only people concerned are those who are aged eighteen. When the Gallup polls are taken they do not ask the eighteen-year-olds whether they should be given a vote. They ask those above the age of 21 who are already receiving a vote, so it does not affect them, but those below 21 years are not asked and they are the ones most affected as to whether they should or should not get a vote. The people who conduct Gallup polls should ask the eighteenyear-olds whether they should be entitled to have a vote.

The Hon. W. G. FRv.-We do not make the rules for the Gallup polls.


The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-Of course not, but if you did make the rules for the Gallup polls I guarantee that Mr. McMahon would have got more than 18 per cent in favour of his leadership of the Liberal Party. I hasten to add that the Labor Party does not make the rules for the Gallup polls and when it was stated that the result was 18 per cent, I am sure that it was on the lower side of 18 per cent. This Government has repudia ted its promises. I t has moved away from what it says it believes in. This has happened on a number of occasions. A number of social issues have been raised by Mr. Galbally by way of private members' Bills in this Chamber and the Government has intimated that it is in favour of them, but not at the time when they were being considered. Why is it not ready to give the eighteen-year-olds a vote yet? There is no reason why they should not have a vote now.

A State election is not due to be held in Victoria for at least eighteen months so there is plenty of time to work it out. All that is required is a simple Bill to be passed by Parliament ratifying the promise made by Sir Arthur Rylah in 1969 and here tonight we have a private member's Bill introduced by the Labor Party to give the eighteen-year-olds a vote. r am glad I am not on the other side of the Chamber because I have confidence in the youth of today. It is very well for the Liberal Party members to laugh about this. It is not funny for these young people who are being conscripted and sent overseas to lose their lives or to come back with missing limbs and so be crippled for the rest of their life.

The Hon. G. J. NICOL.-At what age?

The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-They are conscripted at the age of eighteen, of course, and this rotten Government has been sending them over to fight but yet is not prepared to give them a say in who shall govern the country. They are just sent off to fight.

The Hon. W. G. FRY.-They are not sent off at eighteen years, as Mr. Walton knows.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-Of course, they are given a few weeks' training. I am not silly enough to say you give them a rifle and send them off straight away.

The Hon. W. G. FRY.-They are not sent off at eighteen years, and you know that.

The Han. J. M. WALTON.-I am disgusted with the way this Government has set out to repulse this Bill. I am sure that Liberal Party members who have pleaded with their Government to take action to give eighteenyear-olds a vote will also be disgusted, just as will all other members of the community.

The Hon. D. G. ELLIOT (Melbourne Province) .-While this debate has been proceeding, I have been impressed by the degree of Sincerity which has been expressed, particularly from this side of the Chamber. I must commend the contribution made by Mr. Swinburne. It was one of the finest speeches I have heard the honorable member make. However, that sincerity was contrasted with the greatest lot of bilge I have ever heard from the Government benches.

Taking a panoramic look at honorable members on those benches I find, much to my chagrin, a severe touch of old age even in the youngest of them. They speak with a controlled voice of a most pitiable nature. Mr. Storey has come from one ivory tower to another, from the comfort of his office to this House, to make a smooth and placatory contribution. Evidently, this is to be his role from now on, on pretty well every subject under the sun. The honorable member speaks with his tongue in his cheek. He knows in his own heart that he has just uttered a lot of tommy-rot. If what has happened here tonight represents the current thinking of so-called liberalism-let us be frank,


it carries a very small "I" at the moment-the Liberal Party has its worries.

Mr. Walton made a constructive contribution to the debate and made fools of Liberal Party members out of their own mouths. Mr. Walton proved without any shadow of doubt that the Liberal Party made promises. Then, with a typical pre-Edwardian attitude, Mr. Fry said, "Let us be patient; it will come." Mr. Fry was aided and abetted by the sharebroker, Mr. Hauser. I had thought that Mr. Nicol, of late, had become almost radical in his outlook, but, much to my disgust, the old cry to put these people in their places and let them follow blindly started to manifest itself. Thank God the young people of today no longer think that that is good enough. They ask questions. They have courage such as young people have never had in the history of our country in standing up to be counted on issues which are important to them. I am proud of them.

When I hear people condemn the long hairs from Monash University, I remember that these same young people came to me with more than $18,000 for the Richmond dispensary because they believed in helping their fellow man. I have absolute faith in their ability to acquit themselves well as citizens at the age of eighteen years and to vote in a sensible manner. Whether they vote for the Government of the day, the socalled Liberal Party, the Country Party, the Labor Party, or the Democratic Labor Party does not matter; they have earned the right to vote. Unless they are given that right, we will be that little less men because we have denied it to them.

I am grateful for the silence which greeted that statement. There is not an honorable member in this Chamber who does not know that it is absolutely true. We must give these people the vote. We must leave behind the hoary conservatism which has been with us since time immemorial. I made a mistake earlier. The Norman conquest occurred in

1066, not the signing of Magna Carta. With his greater general knowledge, Mr. Storey should have picked me up. In any case, the honorable member knew what I meant, and he mentioned the old barons. They were the first to argue against the divine right of the monarchy and absolute power being vested in the king. This process has been going on ever since and it will go on while there are human beings on earth.

In some parts of the world, democracy really counts and even currently people are prepared to die for it. In Scandinavia, eighteen-yearolds are not only given the right to make big decisions, but they are provided with Government money to assist them in making those decisions, particularly in the realm of education. The student unions there are a wonder to behold. The sense of responsibility inculcated in them at a young age manifests itself magnificently when they reach the age at which they have the right to vote. Every honorable member would acknowledge that the maturity of young people is manifesting itself at a younger age than hitherto. I am speaking of people at the age of consent, and at the age at which they make up their minds and stand on their own feet; eighteenyear-olds can do that. Mr. Campbell is very proud of his son and I am sure that if I asked him whether, at the age of eighteen, he could make good decisions, he would say that he could.

The Hon. W. M. CAMPBELL.-I asked him and he said, "No".

The Hon. D. G. ELLIOT.-Apparently, he was influenced by the conservative attitudes of his own father, but that is his right. I am sure that if he were exposed to the influence of a few honorable members on the Opposition benches even for a brief period he would change his mind; he might even change his politics. Any contribution I make to debate in this Chamber is hard hitting but has an underlying kindliness. However, I do not want to indulge in humor in this


debate. The Victorian Parliament should grant eighteen-year-olds the vote. Let us forget New South Wales, Queensland, and Tasmania, which will shortly be a Labor State. Until we do grant the vote to these young people, we will have that little less dignity as individuals.

It will be interesting to see just how long it is before the voting age is reduced to eighteen years. For political reasons, it may be put off for far too long. If it is, those responsible will stand condemned. This is a challenge. Honorable members on the Government benches should have the intestinal fortitude to give the right to vote, which is overdue, to people between the ages of eighteen and 21.

The Hon. G. J. NICOL (Monash Province) .-Mr. Elliot said something which I think is very true, that he believed that eighteen-year-olds were mature enough to make up their own minds. I completely subscribe to that statement. Mr. Elliot almost persuaded me that I should vote for this Bill but, for one reason, I cannot do that. I have said this sort of thing in this House on previous occasions, but I must reiterate it. I would be prepared to vote for this Bill provided that I find, as a result of a referendum of eighteen-yearolds who are mature enough and sound enough to be able to make up their own minds, that they want the vote. That is all I ask. I have a fear that, if we were to give these people the right to vote, we might be forCing something on them that they do not want.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-It is forced on the 21-year-olds.

The Hon. G. J. NICOL.-People expect the right at the age of 21. If the 21-year-olds say that they do not want the right to vote, I would be happy to make the voting age 22.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.I am not sure what Mr. Nicol intended to say. Is it that, if the

eighteen-year-olds indicated by referendum that they wanted the vote, Mr. Nicol would vote for the measure?

The Hon. G. J. NICOL.-I said exactly that.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-I would be prepared to make provision for that in the Bill.

The Hon. G. J. NICOL.-I would be perfectly happy if Mr. Galbally could organize a referendum. I am not asking Mr. Galbally to produce Gallup, poll figures or anything like that. I just want a straight referendum of people between the ages of eighteen and 21 years. If they say they want the vote, 1 shall be perfectly happy for it to be given to them. But my attitude is that we should not force something on them that they may not want.

The Hon. D. E. KENT (Gippsland Province) .-1 move-

That the debate be now adjourned.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALL Y (Melbourne North Province) .-Some explanation to the House is desirable. There has been a very interesting debate on this matter. The Labor Party was perfectly happy for the debate to be terminated tonight, but Mr. Nicol has raised a proposition which, of course, is not one 1 had anticipated. I have been trying for four years to have a Bill of this nature passed, and this is the first progress that has been made. I hope the House will agree to the adjournment to enable 'a suitable amendment to be framed to provide, in accordance with what Mr. Nicol suggested, that a vote be taken among the eighteen-year-olds. If the result of that vote is confirmation of their desire to have the right to vote, the combination of Mr. Nicol, Country Party members and Opposition members will ensure the passage of the Bill.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett). - Mr. Galbally should not make another speech on the Bill; the motion is that the debate be adjourned.


The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-I am .giving reasons why the debate should be adjourned. If such a referendum were carried, eighteen-year-olds could vote at the next State elections.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture) .-The House should determine this issue tonight and finish with it. Mr. Storey -quite clearly indicated the attitude of the Government to this Bill. The Government favors the vote being given to people under the age of 21. Immediately Commonwealth legislation is passed with a similar objective, so that the electoral rolls will be the same for the State and the Commonwealth, the Government will introduce legislation to reduce the voting age.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLy.-It is no good your arguing this; we have the numbers.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-It has been estimated that to produce separate rolls would cost Victoria some $500,000. There might be another strike before they are compiled and :the cost could go up again. The Premier has clearly stated that the principle is accepted by the Liberal Party that, as soon as the Commonwealth passes legislation to reduce the voting age, the State will autom'atically follow suit, and at elections in Victoria eighteenyear-aIds will be entitled to vote. r do not think it would be desirable for this House to prolong this debate any further by adjourning it.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLy.-1 want only a week's adjournment.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-Mr. Galbally referred to a referendum. My colleague, Mr. Nicol, spoke about a referendum of the under 21-yearolds. How is Mr. Galbally going to compile a roll for the under 21-yearolds? This is just a manoeuvre on the part of the able and experienced Mr. Galbally.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Melbourne North Province) .-1 take a point of order. It was Mr. Nicol who

assured the House that, if a referendum were held and it favoured this proposal, he would cast his vote for it. That statement must be taken seriously, and accordingly 1 have agreed to an adjournment of the debate to enable this provision to be included. In fact, 1 will assure the House that, if it agrees to pass the second-reading stage tonight, 1 shall not proceed with the clauses until an amendment in the words proposed by Mr. Nicol is included. 1 give the House that assurance.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett).-Order! There is no point of order. The House is debating the motion that the debate be adjourned. That motion has been moved by Mr. Kent and any member may speak to it.

The Hon. G. J. NICOL (Monash Province) .-1 appreciate the guile with which Mr. Galbally has ordered Mr. Kent to seek the adjournment of this debate. I will be happy to agree to the adjournment if within the next week Mr. GalbaUy will hold a referendum. 1 am not prepared to be the subject of one of these gay little tricks of Mr. Galbally.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Melbourne North Province) .-Mr. President, 1 ask that that remark be withdrawn.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett).-I agree that that is undesirable and should be withdrawn.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-I am not going to be insulted. Mr. Nicol made the suggestion. When we took it seriously he ran away from it. That is not my view but the view of the House. Mr. Nicol should not come here with any snide tricks.

The Hon. G. J. NICOL (Monash Province) .-If Mr. Galbally can contain himself--

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-I am not going to stand for this, Mr. President.

The PRESIDENT.-Order! I have asked Mr. Nicol to withdraw the remark.


The Hon. J. W. GALBALLy.-The remarks!

The Hon. G. J. NICOL.-If Mr. Galbally will grant me sufficient time to do so, I will withdraw the remarks to which he takes exception.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON (Melbourne North Province) .-A short time ago, the House discussed a private member's Bill which was introduced by Mr. Nicol. Many members spoke, and indeed one member made an impassioned plea as he could not speak tonight because there was something wrong with his head; he desired the debate to be a.djourned, and the House accepted that motion. I ask the House to compare that sort of argument with the argument which will decide whether this Bill becomes law or not. If this debate is adjourned and time is given, either for an amendment to be drawn up or for a referendum to be held, sufficient members in this House will support the measure to enable it to pass because Mr. Nicol has undertaken to vote for it.

I regret that Mr. Nicol said that he would support it if a referendum were held within a week because he knows, as does everyone else, that that would be impossible. What difference would it make if the debate were 'adjourned for a week, or a month? The elections are not due for eighteen months. Members of the Opposition could still achieve the same objective if they wanted to do so. Mr. Nicol is running away from his undertaking that he would support the Bill if the Opposition were prepared to hold a referendum of eighteen-year-olds.

The Hon. G. J. NICOL.-I said, "if you held one" not "if you are prepared to ".

The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-How can a referendum of all the eighteen to 21-year-olds be held within a week?

The Hon. G. J. NICOL.-It cannot be done. That is what I said.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-Mr. Nicol wants to make it impossible by agreeing to an adjournment of the debate for only one week. It would be possible for eighteen to 21-yearolds to have a vote at the next election. The period of the adjournment does not matter, but the Government is afraid to place this measure on the statute-book because it will get publicity and the eighteen-yearolds outside will start to realiz'e that Liberalism is no good for them, that the Government does not want them to have a say in the community. The Government is prepared to send the police out to whack them with batons, but it is not prepared to allow them to vote. It is prepared to criticize them because they have long hair--

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett).-Order! The question before the Chair is whether the debate should be adjourned.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-Mr. President, that is the argument I am putting forward.

The PRESIDENT.-I cannot connect it.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-I am sorry, Sir, but I am saying that the Government is trying to avoid having the debate adjourn'ed because it is not prepared to face up to it next week or the week after, or for that matter in three years' time. In respect of other Bills introduced by private members the Government has said, " Weare not quite ready for it yet". Tonight it is saying that it is not prepared to grant an adjournment of the debate. ~he Government stands condemned. As everybody can see, it does not want the debate adjourned because it is afraid of being defeated and afraid that the eighteen-year-olds might get a vote. It is a disgrace that when a member seeks the adjournment of a debate until a later date the Government attempts to stop that from happening. This rarely occurs, but it has happened tonight


and the only objective is to prevent eighteen-year-olds from getting the Mr. Clarke vote. Mr. Mitchell

PAIRS.

, Mr. Dickie ~ Mr. Gleeson.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH (Doutta GaUa Province). - The Government is being most discourteous to my Leader. On other occasions the Minister in charge of a Bill has sought to have the debate adjourned as a result of the debate which has taken place. The House is being most discourteous to M:r. Galbally, as is the Government and the Leader of the House, which is most unusual for the honorable gentleman. He is denying Mr. Galbally the right to have the debate on his Bill adjourned. Why is the Government afraid of an adjournment? It has the numbers, and if it is afraid to discuss the Bill further it can place it at the bottom of the Notice Paper and keep it there. Mr. Galbally has heard sufficient tonight to give him hope, and I believe that hope should be given the opportunity of fulfilment. The Government should agree to the suggested adjournment.

The House divided on the motion for the adjournment of the debate (the Hon. R. W. Garrett in the chair)-

Ayes 15 Noes 16

Majority against the motion. . 1

Mr. Bradbury Mr. Dunn Mr. Elliot Mr. Galbally Mr. Kent Mr. Knight Mr. Mansell Mr. May

Mr. Byrne Mr. Campbell Mr. Chandler Mr. Fry Mr. Grimwade Mr. Gross Mr. Hamilton Mr. Hauser Mr. Hider

AYES.

Mr. O'Connell Mr. Swinburne Mr. Thomas Mr. Tripovich Mr. Walton.

Tellers: Mr. Eddy Mr. McDonald.

NOES.

Mr. Houghton Mr. Hunt Mr. Jenkins Mr. Nicol Mr. Storey.

Tellers: Mr. Granter Mr. Ward.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett).-The question now is " That this Bill be now read a second time ".

The Hon. D. E. KENT (Gippsland Province) .-The House has had ample evidence that members of the Government are determined to preserve the traditions for which the Legislative Council has been noted over the years, namely, a reluctance to encourage or permit a full adult franchise. Only in the past twenty years have elections for this House been conducted under a democratic franchise. This certainly was not due to the Liberal Party but to the depleted numbers of conservatives in this House.

The Legislative Council is supposedly a House of review and tonight it has proved that it remains a House of frustration, a House which is determined to frustrate the will of the people in a democratic way. Honorable members who have had experience of life should know that wisdom and maturity cannot be gauged by one's age. This evening, the House has had striking evidence of this fact. Many fatuous arguments have been submitted, particularly by Mr. Storey, who undoubtedly is trying to stem the tide of progress and to hold the Parliament of Victoria to the traditions of 1660 and who appears to be having marked success in this regard. The honorable member's approach is noted for its immaturity. Mr. Storey was not prepared to defend the sovereign right of the State of Victoria to decide for itself the basis upon which its Parliamentary representatives should be elected.

Since I have been a member of this Chamber, I have heard strong criticism of the Federal Government's attempts to take away the sovereign rights of this State. With the imminent approach of a Federal election this year, there has been a strange silence on this subject during the


current sessional period. A perusal of Hansard for the past two years will show that continual criticism has been levelled at the Federal Government by Liberal Party members in this House who have striven so hard to keep the Liberal Party in office in Canberra.

The House is debating the right of people who happen to be between eighteen and 21 years of age to vote at an election for those who will decide the legislation which will be passed by Parliament. They will have to live in the type of SOciety which will be moulded by the members of Parliament and bear the consequences to a much greater extent than some of the members on the Government side of the House who are aged in body and in mind.

Admittedly, these young people have much to learn, but at least they have open minds with the capacity for new ideas. More importantly, they are conscious that the society which we have handed down to them is rotten and corrupt. This inequality and corruption in our society has led to the sort of protests which should have been forthcoming from my own generation. I regret that my generation has been one of the most apathetic generations for a long time.

The eighteen-year-olds of today are conscious of their responsibility to a much greater extent than past generations. They realize their responsibility to shape the world and the destiny of this State. It will not serve any good purpose to deny them the opportunity to participate in the building of a better society. The real obstacle to their obtaining the support of the Government is not because the Government considers that they have less capacity than their elders, but a fear, which may be quite unwarranted, that they will be less conservative and more radical than their elders. Although I am not certain of this, I certainly hope this is so.


The Hon. H. R. WARD.-Have you finished?

The Hon. D. E. KENT.-At least I am not prepared to agree to an adjournment of this debate until the eighteen-year-olds of today 'reach 21 years of age, which seems to be the objective of some members of the Government party. Fortunately, by that time there will be fewer Liberal Party members in the House. This evening, Government members have adhered to a tradition to hold the fort, to preserve the privileges which they have, and to hold the tide against progress and against a full implementation of democracy. I support the Bill.

The House divided on the motion (the Hon. R. W. Garrett in the chair)-

Ayes 14 Noes 16

Majority against the motion.. 2

Mr. Bradbury Mr. Dunn Mr. Galbally Mr. Knight Mr. McDonald Mr. Mansell Mr. May Mr. O'Connell

Mr. Byrne Mr. Campbell Mr. Chandler Mr. Fry Mr. Granter Mr. Hamilton Mr. Hauser Mr. Hider Mr. Houghton

Mr. Clarke Mr. Mitchell

AYES.

Mr. Swinburne Mr. Thomas Mr. Tripovich Mr. Walton.

Tellers: Mr. Elliot Mr. Kent.

NOES.

Mr. Hunt Mr. Jenkins Mr. Nicol Mr. Storey Mr. Ward.

Tellers: Mr. Grimwade Mr. Gross.

PAIRS.

I Mr. Dickie Mr. Gleeson.

VERMIN AND NOXIOUS WEEDS (ALLOWANCES) BILL.

This Bill was received from the Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture), was read a first time.


ADJOURNMENT. The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER

(Minister of Agriculture) .-By leave, I move-

That the Council, at its ris'ing, ,adjourn until Tuesday next.

The Inotion was agreed to.

The House adjourned at 9.47 p.m., until Tuesday, March 28.

iIltgislatittt Asstmbly.

Wednesday, March 22, 1972.

The SPEAKER (Sir Vernon Christie) took the chair at 4.4 p.m., and read the prayer.

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE.

The following answers to questions on notice were circulat€td:-

GERIATRIC CENTRES. COMMONWEALTH ASSISTANCE:

MARYBOROUGH HOSPITAL CENTRE.

(Question No. 765)

Mr. CURNOW (Kara Kara) asked the Minister of Health-

1. Whether he has finalized plans for the acceptance of an offer of Commonwealth assistance for geriatric centres?

2. Whether the Maryborough Hospital i's being considered for an allocation of this money for the second stage of its geriatric centre; if so, when this allocation will be made?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Health) .-The answers are-

1. Although the offer has been accepted, administrative and other arrangements have not yet been settled. However, they are now approaching finality.

2. Not necessarily of this money, although it is probable that the provision of some capital money by the Commonwealth for geriatric centres may enable the reallocation of. State loan funds for other purposes. A final decision can only be made when the arrangements referred to are finalized.

CRIME. INCIDENCE.

(Question No. 873) Mr. WILKES (Northcote) asked the

Chief Secretary-1. How many-(a) armed holdups; (b)

armed robberies; (c) murders; (d) assaults with a weapon; and (e) assaults, have been reported since 1st January, 1972?

2. How many-(a) banks; (b) service stations; and (c) other businesses, 'have been subject to holdups and robberies since 1st January, 1972?

3. How many robberies with assault in private homes have been reported since 1st January, 1972?

4. How many-(a) house breakings; and (b) factory breakings, have been reported since 1st January, 1972?

Mr. HAMER (Chief Secretary).The answers are-

1. From 1st January to 4th March, 1972, inclusive--

(a) and (b) 22. (c) 5. (d) 169. (e) 970.

2. (a) 5. (b) 3. (c) 12. 3.6.

4. (a) 2,482. (b) 283.

POLICE DEPARTMENT. ST. JOHNSTON REPORT: RECOMMEN

DATIONS CONCERNING CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION BRANCH.

(Question No. 924) Mr. WILKES (Northcote) asked the

Chief Secretary-1. How many of the recommendations in

the report of Colonel Sir Eric St. Johnston on the Police Foroe concerning the Criminal Investigation Branch have been implemented?

2. Whether the branch is being increased in line with the recommendations in the report?


1. Of the nineteen recommendations relating to the Criminal Investigation Branch which are listed in chapter XVIII. of the report of Colonel Sir Eric St. Johnston, eight have been, or are in the course

4386 Questions [ASSEMBLY.] on Notice.

of being implemented, and four more are being actively considered with a view to implementation. Six have been deferred for the present, and one has been rejected.

2. Yes.

LAW DEPARTMENT. TRIAL OF PERSONS ON REMAND.

(Question No. 964)

Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West) asked the Attorney-General-

1. What is the reason for the delay in presenting for trial those persons confined in the remand section of Pentridge Gaol and who have been awaiting trial since January last or earlier?

2. What steps have been taken to speed up the trial of persons on remand?

Mr. REID (Attorney-General).The answers are-

1. There is no single reason for delays in bringing to trial the persons referred to by the honorable member. As at 20th March, 1972, there were 33 persons confined in the remand section of Pentridge Gaol awaiting trial and who had been awaiting trial as at 31st January, 1972, or earlier. The reasons why the trials of those 33 persons had not been completed 'are 'as foUows:-

(a.) The trials of seven persons had been adjourned, or listing thereof deferred, 'at the request of the accused or his legal adviser.

(b) Two persons were ordered to be retried on 3rd March, 1972, 'and a further trial is to be arranged.

(c) In one case the trial was 'adjourned because of illness of an essential witness.

(d) One person had been committed for trial at the February sittings of the County Court, but his two coaccused had been originally committed for trial to the Supreme Court in February, 1972. The latter trials were transferred to the March sittings of the County Court and the question of joinder of the presentments had to be determined.

(e) One person had on 26th January, 1972, been 'committed for trial in the March sittings of the County Court, but the trial has not been listed because of delay in receipt of the depositions and a delay in obtaintng additional necessary evidence.

(f) One person, charged with murder, was committed for trial at the February sittings of the Supreme Court, but the trial could not be listed in that month because of the number of other murder trials proceeding in that court.

(g) The trial of each of the remaInIng twenty persons had not commenced because either the accused or his 'co-accused had 'applied for legal aid, and listing 'Of the trial was deferred pending a decision on legal aid. The legal aid 'applications affecting fourteen of these persons have now been dealt with and listing of their trials will proceed as soon as practicable. In each of the six other cases affected by applications for legal aid, the application was not made within the prescribed period, and it has n'Ot yet been practicable to c'Omplete the legal aid procedures.

2. The listing of trials of pers'Ons on remand is dealt with as speedily as is possible. As at 20th March, 1972, trials of eight 'Of the persons referred to in part 1 of this answer (including the person referred to in paragraph (f) thereof) had been listed f'Or hearing later in March and the trials of two others had been listed for the first week of April next.

FISHERIES AND WILDLIF'E BRANCH.

DUCK AND QUAIL SHOOTING LICENCES: GAME SHOOTING PERMITS.

(Questi'On No. 984) Mr. WILKES (Northcote) asked the

Chief Secretary-1. How many duck sh'Ooting licences were

issued in 1970, 1971,and in this year to date?

2. How many quail sh'Ooting licences were issued during the same period?

3. What permits are required to shoot game, other than duck and quail and what number was issued in 1970, 1971 and in this year to date?


1. 1970 1971

36,859 33,945

1972 (to 10th March)

33,717

2. Licences 'are not required for the shooting of quail.

3. N'O permits or licences are required in respect 'Of unprotected species or, with the exception of wild duck, those for which there is an open season. However, permits may be issued to landowners f'Or the destructi'On 'Of 'any protected species where it is pr'Oved that damage is being caused to crops, 'Orchards, vineyards, grass or property. The numbers issued 'are-

1970 131 1971 199 1972 (to 10th March) 8


STATE ELECTRICITY COMMISSION AND GAS AND FUEL

CORPORATION. INDUSTRIAL ACCIDENTS.

(Question No. 1,001)

Mr. SIMMONDS (Reservoir) asked the Attorney-General, for the Minister for Fuel and Power-

1. How many industrial'accidents occurred in the State Electricity Commission and Gas and Fuel Corporation, respectively, during each of the past three years?

2. How many man-hours were lost due to such accidents in each of those years?

Mr. REID (Attorney-General).On behalf of the Minister for Fuel and Power, the answers are-A. STATE ELECTRICITY COMMISSION OF VICTORIA.

The State Electricity Commission does not maintain statistical data rel'a'ting to industrial acciden ts which give a direct answer to the question asked. The commission, however, keeps two distinct sets of records relating to accidents:

1. Safety statistics in accordance with the Australian Standard Code which relates to dis'abling injuries, as defined; and

2. Statistics relating to the payment of workers' compensation.

With regard to paragraph 1, the number of disabling injuries within the commission over the past three years was-

1968-69 1,201 1969-70 869 1970-71 716

and the number of man-hours these 'accidents was-

1968-69 1969-70 1970-71

involved in

217,256 175,928 134,056

J n the case of paragraph 2, a record is maintained of the number of claims made for compensation which includes combined " time lost" accidents and "medical expenses only". No separate record is however kept of the .. time lost" accidents on their own. Total claims for the three years are as follows:-

1968-69 1969-70 1970-71

3,462 2,946 2,848

No record is maintained of actual days for which compensation is paid. However, from the total amount of weekly payments paid, it is calculated that the hours lost were as follows:-

1968-69 1969-70 1970--71

244,000 300,000 245,600

The main reasons for the discrepancy with safety statistics are as follows:-

(a) It is estimated that 15 per cent of weekly payments is in respect of heart conditions which are not normally included in safety statistics;

(b) Calendar days lost for safety statistics often do not include subsequent time lost due to recurrences or time lost beyond the year in which the accident occurs;

(c) Safety statistics do not include journey accidents or accidents during recess periods, estimated at 7 per cent of the total for which compensation is paid.

B. GAS AND FUEL CORPORATION OF VICTORIA.

1. The number of industrial accidents occurring in the Gas and Fuel Corporation during the past three years were-

1968-69 260 1969-70 .. 276 1970-71 149

2 The number of man-hours lost in the Gas and Fuel Corporation as a result of such accidents were-

1968-69 1969-70 1970-71

27,325 32,280 21,393

MENTAL HEALTH AUTHORITY. EDUCATION OF MENTALLY RETARDED

CHILDREN.


Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the Opposition) asked the Minister of Health-

1. What is the basis on which moneys are allocated for the 'education and care of retarded children?

2. What amount will be spent for this purpose in this financial year?

3. Whether there is a special course for teachers of retarded children; if so, how many persons will qualify this year?

4. Whether the overcrowding of the available facilities for retarded children has produced the situation whereby the mental condition of the parents is the basis of winning a place for such children; if 50, what action is being taken to correct this?


The answers to the first three parts of this question have been given on the basis tha t those parts referred to day training centres for the mentally retarded.

1. Moneys are allocated to day training centres for the intellectually handicapped as follows:-Capital

Four-fifths of the cost of projects approved by the Mental Health Authority. .

4388 Questions [ASSEMBL Y.] on Notice.

Maintenance Subsidy is equal to the award salary of

teaching staff approved by the Mental Health Authority.

Transport Subsidy is the full cost of transport

services approv·ed by the Mental Health Authority.

2. Capital-$550,OOO. Maintenance and Transport $1,200,000.

3. The Mental Health Authority conducts a course each year for day training centre teachers. Twenty students are on the course in 1972.

In addition to training in day training centres the Education Department provides teachers for training at special schools established at residential centres-Janefield Training Centre, the Children's Cottages, Kew, and Pleasant Creek Training Centre, Stawell.

4. In the allocation of priorities for admission to training centres, a comprehensive survey of the total family situation is undertaken in any assessment for priorities. This is reviewed periodically.

EDUCATION DEPARTMENT. COBURG NORTH PRIMARY SCHOOL.


Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West) asked the Minister of Education-

1. How many children attend Coburg North Primary School, O'Heas Street, Coburg?

2. What types of temporary or portable class-rooms are located at the school?

3. Whether certain of such class-rooms are of the "Army hut" type ·constructed of galvanized iron; if so-(a) how long such rooms have been at the school; and (b) when they will be replaced?

Mr. THOMPSON (Minister of Education) .-The answers are-

1. 533.

2. Two portable class-rooms are located at the school.

3. An Army hut building is in use for special purposes-e.g. art-craft, library, film room, etc. The hut was first used for class-room purposes in 1949. Permanent class-rooms to replace the classes in Ithe Army hut have already been provided and the maintenance of the Army hut and its replacement are the responsibilty of the school. However, special grant assistance will be available on application from the school.

PRIMARY SCHOOLS IN RESERVOIR: ELECTORATE: INFANT SCHOOL. SUPPLIES.

(Question No. 1,016) Mr. SIMMONDS (Reservoir) asked

the Minister of Educa tion-Whether infant school supplies have been

forwarded to the Keon Park, Reservoir West, Burbank, Preston, Kingsbury, Merrilands, Reservoir, Keon Park East, and Lakeside primary schools, respectively; if so-(a) when; and (b) what supplies were forwarded?

Mr. THOMPSON (Minister of Education) .-The answer is -

Junior school requisite supplies are supplied annually. All schools listed received their 1971 supplies in July and August, 1971. There is a standard application form listing a large number of items which are supplied on a scale based on attendance.

TEACHERS ON PART-TIME STUDY LEAVE .. (Question No. 1,020)

Mr. SHILTON (Midlands) asked the Minister of Education-

1. How many teachers in the primary, secondary and technical school sectors, respectively, were granted part-time study leave in 1971 and in this year to date?

2. How many teachers in each of those sectors have only completed one year of study in their relevant degree or diploma course?

3. How many teachers in those sectors were granted degree and diploma courses in 1971 and in this year?

Mr. THOMPSON (Minister of Education) .-The answer is-

This information will involve considerable research and will take time to collate. The honorable member will be advised by ietter as soon as possible.

MARYBOROUGH EAST PRIMARY SCHOOL.

(Question No. 1,032) Mr. CURNOW (Kara Kara) asked

the Minister of Education-When tenders will be called for two addi

tional class-rooms at Maryborough East Primary School, No. 2828?


The Public Works Department was asked this month to include the provision of two addiltional class-rooms at Maryborough East Primary School in a future bulk contract for additional class-rooms at various schools. No indication can be given at this' stage regarding the calling of tenders. A portable


class-room has been supplled and the existing accommodation is considered satisfactory for the meantime.

PORT-ABLE CLASS-ROOMS. (Question No. 1,037)

Mr. E. W. LEWIS (Dundas) asked the Minister of Education-

l. How many contractors are engaged in moving portable class-rooms?

2. How many trucks each contractor operates, and in which areas?


l. Two. 2. One contractor has three vehicles and

the other nine vehicles. The latter operates in the western part of the State, the eastern boundary of which is the Hume Highway.

EDEN HOPE HIGH SCHOOL.

(Question No. 1,038) Mr. E. W. LEWIS (Dundas) asked

the Minister of Education-Whether a portable class-room has been

allocated to Edenhope High School; if so, when it will be erected on site?


Yes. It is expected that it will be delivered early next month.

HAMILTON HIGH SCHOOL.


the Minister of Education-l. How many teachers are located at

Hamilton High School? 2. How many teachers are required for

this school to reach the target set by the Education Department?

3. Whether six teachers presently at the school are engaged in teaching home economics; if so, whether only one kitchen is available to them for instruction?

4. Whether there is a shortage of teachers for boys' physical education and music, respectively, at the school; if so, when they will be appointed?

Mr. THOMPSON (Minister of Educ!ltion) .-The answers are-

1. 44·8 plus librarian (the Teachers Tribunal schedule is 37·5).

2. 46·6 is the target figure the Education Department is aiming at reaching this year.

3. There are six teachers qualified to teach home economics on the staff. Three are teaching mostly home economics; three are teaching other subjects. All are married women living in Hamilton.

Yes; there is only one kitchen available for instruction.

4. Yes; teachers will be appointed when fully-qualified persons become available.


the Minister of Education-Whether the out-dated furniture at

Hamilton High School will be replaced; if not, why?


Yes. Arrangements are being made for the supply of replacement furniture at Hamilton High School.

ST. ARNAUD PRIMARY SCHOOL.

(Question No. 1,042) Mr. CURNOW (Kara Kara) asked

the Minister of Education-When it is proposed to repain;! and reno

vate St. Arnaud Primary School? Mr. THOMPSON (Minister of

Education) .-The answer is-Funds have been approved to enable reno

vations to the St. Arnaud Primary School to proceed. The Public Works Department is obtaining details of necessary electrical and mechanical works for inclusion in the specifications preparatory to advertising for tenders. .

ST. ARNAUD HIGH SCHOOL.

( Question No. 1,043) Mr. CURNOW (Kara Kara) asked

the Minister of Education-Further ;to the answer given to question

No. 992, whether, as the school committee of the St. Arn'aud High School considers that the assembly hall needs painting, he will investigate this need whilst contractors painting the rest of Ithe school are still in St. Arnaud?


Yes. The Public Works Department will be asked to arrange painting of the assembly hall, if necessary.

SUNSHINE HEIGHTS PRIMARY SCHOOL.


Mr. GINIFER (Deer Park) asked the Minister of Education-

1. How many pupils and teachers, respectively, attended the Sunshine Heights Primary School in 1971, how many now attend the school, and how many are expected to attend in 1973?


2. What measures are proposed to provide adequate and permanent class-room accommodation at the school?

3. What maximum number of pupils it is intended to teach at the school?

4. How many permanent class-rooms and portable class-rooms, respectively, are at the school?

5. What plans the Education Department has to establish additional primary schools in Sunshine West, indicating when these schools might be established?


1. PUPILS

July, 1971 900 February, 1972 1122

TEACHERS

30 36

February, 1973 700 approx 23 approx 2. No additional permanent class-rooms

are planned at this stage. 3. No precise answer can be given. The

maximum number of pupils will depend on development in ,the area.

4. Twenty-three permanent class-rooms. Eight portable class-rooms.

5. Two new primary schools are planned to relieve the accommodation position at Sunshine Heights and it is expected that they will be available for occupation by early 1973.

STEVENSVILLE PRIMARY SCHOOL.

(Question No. 1,046) Mr. GINIFER (Deer Park) asked

the Minister of Education-In respect of the Stevensville Primary

School when-( a) additional permanent class-rooms; (b) a library; (c) a general purposes room; and (d) site works, will be constructed?


(a), (b) and (c) The department's capital works programme is at present under review and it is not possible at this time to indicaJte when the additions will be provided at the Stevensville Primary School.

(d) Work on the permanent site works is expected to commence early in the 1972-73 financial year.

PRIVATE TUITION FOR STUDENTS WITHOUT TEACHERS.

(Question No. 1,053) Mr. KIRKWOOD (Preston) asked

the Minister of Education-Whether the Education Department offers

an alternative means of tuitton, such as finance for private tuition of students,

where the department is unable to provide teachers in particular subjects; if so, what is the nature of the scheme; if not, why?


The Education Department will arrange for " oU't of hours" classes where practicable and necessary and where the staff of the schOOl is fewer than the target figure.

TUITION FOR HANDICAPPED CHILDREN.

(Question No. 1,054) Mr. FELL (Greensborough) asked

the Minister of Education-1. What Government financial assistance

has been given to the Specific Learning Difficulties Association in each of the past three financial years?

2. What action has been taken by the Education Department !to provide specialized tuition for children with these handicaps?

3. How many children are so handicapped and how many staff are engaged in remedial teaching?

Mr. THOMPSON (Minister of Education) .-The anwers are-

1. Nil. 2. The term .. speCific learning difficulties"

is an imprecise term and for this reason no special provision can be made for specialized tuition. Extensive provision is made for preventing and remedying educational retardaition. These provisions are being expanded as rapidly as circumstances permit.

3. In the absence of precise definition no reliable incidence estimates are possible.

Y ALLAMBIE PRIMARY SCHOOL.


Mr. FELL (Greensborough) asked the Minister of Education-

1. What action has been taken, or will be taken, to correct the health hazard of sewage effluent running over the footpath at the Yallambie Primary School?

2. Whether the school is connected to the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works sewer; if not, why?


1. The holding tank is now being emptied daily instead of twice weekly as formerly.

2. No. The Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works is unable at this stage to provide a point of connection and has indicated that it will probably be three months before one can be made available.


PRIMARY SCHOOL CHILDREN SUFFERING FROM DYSLEXIA:

TEACHERS.



1. What percentage of primary school children suffer from dyslexia?

2. Whether there are any trained teachers for such students; if so-(a) how many; (b) at which schools they are located; and (c) how many teachers are being so trained at present?


1. The term "dyslexia" like the more commonly used term "specific learning difficulties" does not have a precise meaning, and a great deal of theory, reporting and research in this area during the past 70 years have been concerned with the complex problem of definition, etiology and diagnosis. On these things there is no common agreement, and there is as yet no clear evidence that dyslexia can be defined and identified as a separate entity among children who are backward in reading. It is therefore impossible at present to estimate its incidence.

2. No.

POLLUTION. EMISSIONS FROM PREMISES AT COBURG.

(Question No. 1,017) Mr. SIMMONDS (Reservoir) asked

the Minister of Health-Whether any complaints have been made

to the Department of Health concerning the emission of smoke or fumes from the Steel Co. of Australia Pty. Ltd. works in Sussex Street, Coburg; if so-(a) what was the nature of the complaints; (b) what processes are carried out at the works; (c) what types of fumes are emitted from the works; and (d) what is the area of the factory premises?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Health) .-The answer is-

Yes. (a)

(b)

(c)

(d)

The complaints related to the intermittent emission of orange brown fume.

The company manufactures high grade steel valves.

The visible fume emission is predOminantly iron oxide which arises during the decarbonizing of steel with oxygen.

The area on which Ithe factory is built, as recorded in the City of Coburg valuers book and also in

the City of Coburg rate book is-16 acres 11 ! perches, less 8 ft. 51 in. along Sussex Street, less 7 feet along Derby Street.

GEELONG HOSPITAL DENTAL CLINIC.

HONORARY DOCTORS: DENTAL REPAIRS: ELIGIBILITY FOR TREATMENT.

(Question No. 1,021) Mr. TREZISE (Geelong North)

asked the 'Minister of Health-1. What are the names of the dentists

giving honorary service at the Geelong hospital dental clinic?

2. During what hours and days of the week they are in attendance?

3. Whether denture repairs are carried out from this clinic?

4. What sections of the Geelong community are entitled to attend the clinic for dental treatment?

5. Whether a person, of his own accord, can attend the clinic for dental treatment?


The Hospitals and Charities Commission obtained the following details from the Geelong hospital on behalf of the honorable member:-

1. The following dentists give honorary service at the Geelong hospital dental clinic:-

Dental Surgeons.-Mr. G. E. Blood, B.D.Sc., L.D.S.; Mr. L. A. Gardiner, B.D.Sc.; Mr. R. L. Grant, B.D.Sc., L.D.S.; Mr. F. R. Henderson, B.D.Sc., L.D.S.; Mr. B. J. Hood, B.D.Sc., L.D.S.; Mr. J. F. Neilson, B.D.Sc., L.D.S.;

Orthodontist.-Dr. O. P. Black, B.D.Sc., D.D.S., M.D.Sc., F.A.C.D.S. (Hon.).

2. The clinic, staffed by the honorary dentists, is open one half-day each week, on Wednesday mornings.

3. No denture repairs are carried out at the clinic.

4. Any person eligible for treatment at the hospital as a public patient is eligible to attend the clinic for dental treatment.

5. Persons eligible to attend the clinic may obtain dental treatment-

(a) by being referred to the out-patients' department of the hospital by a medical practitioner or by a dentist; and

(b) by presenting at the hospital casualty department and. after examination by the doctor on duty there, being referred to the dental clinic.

4392 Questions [ASSEMBLY. ] on Notice.

MOUNT HOTHAM ALPINE RESERVE.

COMMITTEE OF MANAGEMENT.


Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows) asked the Minister of Lands-

Whether it is intended to introduce legislation to grant executive powers to the Mount Hotham Alpine Reserve Committee of Management; if so, when?

Mr. BORmWICK (Minister of Lands) .-The answer is-

Legislation on this subject is being prepared and it is intended to introduce it in the current session.

LANDS DEPARTMENT. ERECTION OF BUILDINGS ALONG

RIVER MURRAY.


Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows) asked the Minister of Lands-

Whether any buildings have been erected illegally on the Victorian bank of the River Murray; if so, what action, if any, will be taken by the Department of Crown Lands and Survey?

Mr. BORmWICK (Minister of Lands) .-The answer is-

A number of illegally-erected buildings have been detected on Crown land along the River Murray in the TorrumbarryWharparilla area.

It is intended to take court action under the provisions of section 188A of the Land Act to have these structures removed.

STATE RIVERS AND WATER SUPPLY COMMISSION.

DARTMOUTH AND CHOWILLA DAMS.


Mr. MUTTON (Coburg) asked the Minister of Water Supply-

1. In respect of the Dartmouth dam(a) what is the estimated cost; (b) who is the constructing authority; (c) What individual amounts will be allocated by the States and the Commonwealth, respectively; (d) what are the terms of the agreement between the States concerned and the Commonwealth; (e) when it is expected that the project will be completed; and (f) what will be the storage capacity of the dam?

2. What was the estimated cost of the Chowilla dam?

Mr. DUNSTAN (Minister of Water Supply) .-The answers are-

1. (a) The estimated cost of Dartmouth dam is $64 million.

(b) The constructing authority is the State Rivers and Water Supply Commi's" sion of Victoria.

(c) The Commonwealth of Australia and the States of New South Wales, Victoria and South Australia each contribute onequarter of the cost. However, the Commonwealth will advance to the three States concerned, one-half of the amount which each State is required to meet, by way of special loan with commencement of capital repayments deferred for ten years, as set out in the schedule to Victorian Act No. 7949.

(d) The terms of the agreement between the States concerned and the Commonwealth are as set out in the River Murray Waters Agreement. Provisions concerning Dartmouth dam were inserted by an amending agreement set out in the schedule to Victorian Act No. 7948. As regards the sharing of Murray waters between the States the main amendments are that when Dartmouth dam becomes effective the South Australian annual entitlement to water will be increased from 1·254 million acre-feet to 1· 5 million acre-feet; and during periods of restriction on the Murray the total water available for 'sharing between the States of New South Wales, Victoria and South Australia will be shared in the respective proportions of 5: 5 : 5 instead of the present proportions of 5 : 5 : 3. Apart from these qualifications, New South Wales and Victoria will share equally in the additional water provided by construction of Dartmouth dam.

(e) The project is expected to be completed in 1978.

(f) The storage capacity of the dam will be 3,000,000 acre-feet.

2. The cost of Chowilla dam was estimated in 1968, after the calling of initial tenders and some subsequent modifications in design, to be approximately $60 million.

LAND AT DUNKELD.

(Question No. 1,030) Mr. W. J. LEWIS (Portland) asked

the Minister of Water Supply-Whether the State Rivers and Water

Supply Commission has received an application from Fitzpatrick and Sons to purchase the site at Dunkeld on which their mill is situated; if so, whether the application has been considered and what is the position of this firm as to tenancy?

Mr. DUNSTAN (Minister of Water Supply) .-The answer is-

The commission has received no application from Fitzpatrick and Sons to purchase the site on which their mill is situated.


MEAT INDUSTRY. SYNTHETIC MEATS.


Mr. W. J. L'EWIS (Portland) asked the Minister of Lands, for the Minister of Agriculture-

1. Whether the Government is concerned at the increasing use of synthetic meats in Victoria?

2. What quantities of synthetic meats are used at present?

3. What action the Government has taken to ascertain the effect of sales of this meat on beef, mutton land pork sales?

Mr. BORTHWICK (Minister of Lands) .-The answers suppHed by the Minister of Agriculture are--

1. The Government is well aware of the possible threat of imitation meat to the Australian meat industry and that it is a matter of great concern to primary producers in this State. The matter has been discussed on several occasions at meetings of the Austflalian Agricultural Council and it has also been kept under constant review by the Animal Production Committee of the Standing Committee on Agriculture and by the Department of Primary Industry and the Australian Meat Board.

At present the expanding manufacture and sale of imitation meat from soy·a bean, wheat and other plant protein is considered to be mainly a potential threat to the Australian meat industry in its overseas markets for manufacturing and filler type meats. In the United States of America in particular it is estimated that 15 to 20 per cent of the protein market will be supplied by vegetable protein by 1980, and it is estimated that a l'arge proportion of this material will be used as meat extenders in products such as, hamburgers, casseroles, sausages, etc.

The United States Government has provided that up to 30 per cent of protein in the school lunch can be vegetable protein and the vegetable protein industry is also being encouraged to increase production for export in 'association with aid programmes to underdeveloped countries.

2. Although no specific information on quantities of synthetic meats used in Victoria is available, it is considered by the Australian Meat Board and th'e Department of Primary Industry that the manufacture of imitation meats in Australia and imports of these products have not yet reached a level where they could be said to be a threat in the foreseeable fu ture to the local Australian markets for meat. A few tinned products purporting to be meat substitutes

Session 1972.-155

are being sold mainly in special health food shops 'and there is no evidence of increasing use of vegetable protein products as meat extenders in products such as, sausages and hamburgers.

3. The most important action that the Government can take in relation to the possible effect of these products on sales of beef, mutton and pork, is to ensure that the local meat industry is protected from unfair competition through legislation to control correct labelling of food products.

The legislation controlling labelling of food products is administered by the State Department of Health. The Victorian Food Standards Committee is discussing today a model standard proposed by the National Health and Medical Research Council concerning labelling of foods not elsewhere standardized. At recent meetings of the Australian Agricultural Council all States have been urged to adopt the National Health and Medical Research Council model standard and I intend to press for the protection of the meat industry against misleading labelling under existing Victorian legislation and its amendment, if necessary, in line with the National Health and Medical Research Council model standard.

Several tinned products on sale in Victorian shops which appear to be in breach of existing regulations concerning labelling have been drawn to the attention of the Minister of Health and I understand that appropriate action is being taken.

STATE FORESTS. TIMBER EXTRACTION WORK ON

SUNDAYS.


Mr. W. J. L'EWIS (Portland) asked the Minister of Forests-

1. Whether timber workers are permitted to fell trees in State forests on Sundays for the purpose of obtaining mill logs?

2. Whether log hauliers are permitted to load and cart logs from any State forests on Sundays?

Mr. MEAGHER (Minister of Forests) .-The answers are-

1. Felling of trees in State forests on Sundays for the purpose of obtaining mill logs is not commonly carried out but may be permitted by a forest officer in appropriate circumstances.

2. In accordance with sub-paragraph (ii) of paragraph (b) of sub-section (6) of section 79 of the Forests Act 1958, it is an offence to load and cart logs from any State forest on Sundays without the authority in writing of a forest officer.

4394 Questions [ASSEMBL Y.] on Notice.'

UNEMPLOYMENT. COMMONWEALTH GRANTS TO MUNI

CIPALITIES~ TRUSTS AND AUTHORI-

TIES. (Question No. 1,033)

Mr. CURNOW (Kara Kara) asked the Treasurer-

1. What municipalities, waterworks trust and sewerage authorities, respectively, in the electoral district of Kara Kara have received grants from the Commonwealth rural unemployment relief scheme in the past two weeks? '

2. What amount each municipality, trust or authority received in the last grant?

Sir HENRY BOLTE (premier and Treasurer) .-The answers are-

1 and 2. A further schedule of grants under the Commonwealth rural unemployment relief scheme was approved on 10th March. The names of the municipalities, waterworks trusts and sewerage authorities in the Kara Kara district wltich received grants, together with the amounts, are set out in the table which follows:-

Name Amount of grant

Gordon shire Lexton shire Kara Kara shire St. Arnaud town Dunmunkle shire Bet Bet shire .. Korong shire .. Avoca shire .. Talbot and Clunes shire Tullaroop shire Maryborough city . . . . Maryborough Sewerage Authority Bealiba Waterworks Trust .. Avoca River Improvement Trust

$ 3,600 3,960 1,500 3,500

950 3,000 2,000 3,000 1,100 1,675 5,000 2,385 1,000 4,000

HAMILTON ELDERLY CITIZENS CLUB.

ApPLICATION FOR GRANT.


the Minister of Health-1. Whether an application for a grant has

been received from the Hamilton Elderly Citizens Club; if so-( a) for what amount; and (b) whether the application will be approved and, in that event, when?

2. Whether any Commonwealth grant is available to this organization; if so, on what basis payment will be made?


Application for a capital grant towards the cost of establishing the Hamilton Elderly Citizens Club has been received from

the Hamilton town clerk. The application was dated 14th March, 1972, and the subsidy sought was $26,933.

A recommendation will be made to the Commonwealth for approval of $16,933 towards the cost of this project and if that is approved a recommendation will be made to me by the Chief Health Officer for the payment of a total subsidy of $26,933. The necessary recommendations will be made in the first instance to the Commonwealth, at an early date.

EDENHOPE ELDERLY CITIZENS CLUB.

ApPLICATION FOR GRANT. (Question No. 1,035)

Mr. E. W; LEWIS (Dundas) asked the Minister of Health-

When a grant will be approved for the Edenhope Elderly Citizens Club?


An application for a capital subsidy towards the cost of establishmg the Edenhope Elderly Citizens Club was received in the department on 7th February, 1972. The application was made prior to the department advising councils of the additional subsidies available under the States Grants (Home Care) Act 1969.

The application was for $10,000. As there is a possibility that some Commonwealth assistance can be obtained towards the cost of the project, the council was forwarded on 6th March, 1972, revised application forms. At this time no details are in hand concerning the over-all cost of the project. Immediately on receipt of the revised application a recommendation concerning the subsidy will be made to me by the Chief Health Officer.

MUNICIPALITIES. WELFARE OFFICERS AND SOCIAL

WORKERS: FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE: DUTIES.

(Question No. 1,036) Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds)

asked the Minister of Health-1. What financial assistance is available

to municipalities, under the Commonwealth States Grants (Home Care) Act 1969, to employ municipal welfare officers or social workers?

2. What financial assistance is available from the State Government to subsidize the Commonwealth assistance?

3. What are the terms and conditions of both financial allocations to municipalities?

4. What are the Department of Health requirements regarding the qualification and experience of municipal welfare officers?


5. \Vhat special duties the welfare officer must engage in under the States grants scheme and what other employment is recommended by the department for these welfare officers?

6. Whether the department has any supervisory powers over the duties of municipal welfare officers?

7. What percentage of a welfare officer's time must be devoted to approved welfare services for the aged and whether the amount of assistance is proportionate to the time spent on any other type of service; if so, what the department considers to be approved welfare service and what are the details of such a service?


Details concerning the duties of a municipal welfare officer and of the financial arrangements between the Commonwealth and State Governments and the State Government and municipal councils concerning them were set out in a circular instruction issued to all municipal councils in February, 1972. The details of this circular are follows:-

Under the States Grants -(Home Care) Act 1969, the Commonwealth Government will provide financial assistance to a participating State for the employment of welfare officers in connection with the provision of an approved welfare service by or in association with a senior citizens' centre. The Commonwealth assistance only applies where the welfare officer devotes more than 50 per cent of his/her time In carrying out approved welfare services for the aged and the amount of assistance will be proportionate to the time spent on such services but not exceeding one-half of the salary of the welfare officer.

Other conditions are as follows:-

(1) It is necessary for the department to obtain the prior approval of the Commonwealth Minister for Social Services in each case although approval may be given for welfare officers presently employed in respect of salary paid after 16th September, 1971, (the date when Victoria gave notice of becoming a participating State).

(2) Where two or more persons are employed throughout the same period as welfare officers of the same senior citizens' centre the financial assistance will not apply in relation to the 'employment of more than one of those persons unless the Commonwealth Minister otherwise approves. The State Government will make a

subsidy available to the municipal council, of an amount equal to the Commonwealth assistance.

The department requires that any welfare officers employed shall have suitable qualifications and experience to carry out the duties of the position. In this regard trained nurses and social workers may be considered suitable. The salary proposed for subsidy will also be subject to departmental approval.

It is considered essential that the main function of the welfare officer shall be to ensure the development, co-ordination and continuing provision of the most appropriate welfare services to meet the needs of the aged in the area. This does not imply that an elderly citizens' club would directly provide all services or that the welfare officer be necessarily accommodated at the club. On the contrary the services could be provided by a variety of organizations, the stimulation and co-ordination of which would be a major part of the welfare officer's activities.

A welfare officer may service an area which contains more than one elderly citizens' club. On the other hand a municipality may be subsidized for more than one welfare officer where the need exists and each officer is associated with a separate elderly citizens' club servicing a different area.

Welfare services may include not only club activities but also a variety of other services, such as-

( 1) determining the needs of the aged population and developing services and facilities to meet their needs;

(2) liaison with elderly citizens' club committees for the purpose of establishing or extending club services and facilities;

(3) supervision of services provided and to this end keeping a register of old people at risks;

(4) fostering co-operation and liaison between welfare activities for the aged and encouraging interest in these activities; and

(5) providing an educational programme which will encourage elderly citizens' clubs to promote purposeful activity.

Quarterly reports by the welfare officer(s) would be required to be submitted through the Medical Officer of Health and Council to this department.

HAMILTON CITY COUNCIL: DRAINAGE WORKS.


the Minister of Education-Whether estimates have been received for

the construction of a drain in th'e vicinity of George Street, Hamilton Primary School. and at the rear of Housing Commission

4396 Questions [ASSEMBLY. ] on Notice.

homes fronting White Street; if so-( a) when construction will be commenced; and (b) whether a special grant from the Commonwealth rural unemployment relief scheme will be sought to enable the Hamilton City Council to undertake and expeditiously carry out this work?


Funds have already been approved to construct an open drain on the south side of the proposed basketball court and this will be connected to the council's stormwater drain in the adjacent easement. The work should commence before the beginning of term II. The problem of seepage water from the oval will be investigated and an early report is expected.

A special grant from the Commonwealth rural unemployment relief scheme will not be sought.

RURAL FINANCE AND SETTLEMENT COMMISSION.

LOANS TO SECONDARY INDUSTRIES. (Question No. 1,044)

Mr. AMOS (Morwell) asked the Minister of Soldier Settlement-

1. Further to the answer to question No. 960, why $4,440,666 was lent by the Rural Finance and Settlement Commission to secondary industries for the financial year 1970-71, yet only $6,751,654 was lent for the period from 1966-1971?

2. Whether industries, which were the recipients of such loans, were based in country locations as defined by section 390A of the Local Government Act 1958; if not, what criterion is used to define a country industry?

Mr. BORTIlWICK (Minister of Soldier Settlement).-The answers are-

1. Applications and requirements for loans vary from year to year. During 1970-71 special problems existed which resulted in additional funds being made available to Victoria to meet the particular circumstances.

2. No; the criteria for lending by the Rural Finance and Settlement Commission is laid down in the Rural Finance Act 1958.

VICTORIAN PORTS. WHARFAGE CHARGES.


asked the Minister of Labour and Industry, for the Minister of Public Works-

1. What are the present maximum inward wharfage charges payable for petroleum at Westernport, the port of Melbourne and the port of Geelong, respectively?

2. What authority has the power to set or alter such maximum rates?

3. Whether, under the Westernport (Oil Refinery) Act 1963, the port of Geelong is compelled to levy wharfage charges for p~troleum at a rate at least 20 per cent hIgher than Westernport; if so, why; if not, whether there are any limitations in regard to charges for petroleum handled by the port of Geelong in comparison with Westernport?

Mr. RAFFERTY (Minister of Labour and Industry).-The answers supplied by the Minister of Public Works are-

1. Present maximum inward wharfage charges for petroleum:

Westernport.-(a) The Westernport (Oil Refinery) Act which is relative to British Petroleum, provides as follows:-

40 cents per ton of 250 gallons up to 2· 5 million tons per annum for petroleum from outside Australia. 30 cents per ton for petroleum of Australian origin.

Where yearly input exceeds 2·5 million tons, rates payable in each case are reduced by 10 cents per ton for eve~ ton in excess of 2· 5 million tons. PrOVIded that the rate applicable for petroleum shipped within Victoria and unshipped over the jetties at British Petroleum refinery shall be one-fourth only of the above rates.

(b) The Westernport Development Act, which is relative to Esso-Hematite provides as follows:- '

Inward wharfage rates are ,those generally applicable to the port of Westernport under the Marine Act. The general rate for Westernport is $1 per Iton for inward goods with a reduction to 67 cents if the goods are produced in Australia and arrive from ports therein.

There is no rate applicable only to petroleum in Westernport under the Marine Act and, in fact, no inward petroleu.m has been handled by these compames.

Melbourne.---.:Maximum inward wharfage on petroleum is-(a) from overseas 83 cents per ton. (b) Australian origin 55 cents per ton.

Geelong.-Maximum inward wharfage on petroleum is-(a) from overseas 50 cents per ton. (b) Australian origin 37·5 cents per ton.

2. In regard to Westernport, inward rates applicable to British Petroleum are fixed by their agreement with the State for a period of twenty years, as set out in the answer to the first part of the question.

Questions [22 MARCH, 1972.] without Notice. 4397

In regard to Esso-Hematite their agreement with the State provides for inward rates as specified in the Marine Act. The latter rates are fixed by regulation approved by the Governor in Council.

3. Inward wharfage rates under the Westernport (Oil Refinery) Act are fixed for a period of twenty years commencing in early 1966.

After expiry of this period, the rates specified in that Act must not exceed 80 per cent of the relevant charges at Geelong.

ROAD ACCIDENTS. TRADES OR PROFESSIONS OF DRIVERS.


Mr. KIRKWOOD (Preston) asked the Chief Secretary-

Whether any statistics of fatal car accidents specify the trade or profession of the driver, especially in relation to drivers in Victoria under the age of 25 years; if so, what are these statistics?

Mr. HAMER (Chief Secretary).The answer is-

No.

QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE.

HALF-STAFF LEAVE. Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the

Opposition) .-1 direct a question to the Premier and Treasurer. In view of the decision of the Commonwealth Conciliation and Arbitration Commission that it would be just if three extra days leave were granted to blue collar workers, the same as is granted to staff employees, and in view of the Premier's statement on many occasions that unions should comply with decisions of the commission, will the honorable gentleman assure the House that he will instruct the State Electricity Commission that it should be free to deal with this matter as any other employer would deal with it and to settle the matter in terms of the decision of the court, and that the Government will not delay the implementation of the decision?

Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer) .-1 should find it difficult to reply to that question without taking up a great deal of question time to explain fully and to answer

some of the honorable member's queries. In the first place, this was not a direction of the Arbitration Commission but a recommendation. I think the expression used was that there should not be any discrimination against blue-collar workers compared with white-collar workers. Possibly, I agree with that recommendation.

The facts are that in about September each year the Government makes a decision about half-staff leave. It depends when Christmas Day and Boxing Day fall whether the leave is for three days or two days, but usually it is for three days. The guidelines laid down by the Government for granting half-staff leave, with which I agree, are, firstly, that the departments can operate efficiently; secondly, that there should be no additional cost; and thirdly, that the public still receives the same service that it expects at any other time of the year. Under those guidelines officers of departments are given what is called half-staff leave -that is, half of the staff is absent in the Christmas-New Year period, and the remaining half following the New Year.

As I understand the position, in dealing with another matter altogether-the question of an additional week's leave-the Arbitration Commission did more or less comment that this practice is discriminatory against blue-collar workers compared with white-collar workers and that it considered that it would be proper that whatever leave was given to white-collar workers on a half-staff basis should also be granted to the blue-collar workers. The Government does not disagree with this, provided that the guidelines as laid down are complied with. The Government is currently endeavouring to ascertain whether the State Electricity Commission can function along these lines without cuts affecting the public, and also whether other departments can do so.

4398 Questions [ASSEMBLY.] without Notice.

I wish to make it .perfectly clear once and for all that this affects not only the State Electricity Commission; it affects all public authorities. The Arbitration Commission has laid down that there is a nexus between the State Electricity Commission, the Gas and Fuel Corporation, the harbor trusts, the Country Roads Board, and similar bodies. The Government is looking at the issue not just as it affects the State Electricity Commission and/or the Arbitration Commission and/or the unions; it has to look at this in context, and that is currently being done.

As this is a matter which if and when granted or if and when refused could not apply until Christmas, there is no urgency about it. I inform the Leader of the Opposition

. that the Government has no intention of changing its procedure of having this question assessed within a reasonable period of the Christmas vacation and then granting whatever leave it considers to be proper.

Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the Opposition) .-In taking into account the basis of the decision of the court--

Sir HENRY BOL TE.-It is not a decision of the court. The honorable member knows that.

Mr. HOLDING.-In that case I will simply quote very quickly. I shall not take up the time of the House.

The SPEAKER (Sir Vernon Christie ).-Order! I must rule the Leader of the Opposition out of order. This is question time and it is not a matter for debate.

Mr. HOLDING.-In view of the statement of the Commonwealth Conciliation and Arbitration CommISSIOn that it would be industrially just if the extra days which staff employees receive annually as leave were also granted to non-staff employees, and in view of the industrial relations which exist in the State Electricity Commission, is

it not a fact that the Premier is endeavouring to delay any pronouncement on the granting of this award in the hope that further industrial disputes will favour the--

The SPEAKER. - Order! The Leader of the Opposition is indulging in comment. This is question time. The question has been asked.

Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer) .-1 do not necessarily desire to repeat what I have already said, but the Government will not discriminate between sections of the State Electricity Commission, white-collar workers or bluecollar workers, and all the other authorities. However, it was not the court's decision to lay down the guidelines under which half-staff leave may be given. All the court has S'a'id is that it would appear to be unfair for one section not to receive what the other section receives.

Mr. HOLDING.-Does the honorable gentleman accept that?

Sir HENRY BOL TE.-I accept the fact that it is the prerogative of the Government to decide half-staff leave.

Mr. HOLDING.-The Premier does not care what the court says.

Sir HENRY BOLTE.-I certainly do not care what the court says on this issue.

The SPEAKER (Sir Vernon Christie).-Order! There is too much interjection.

Sir HENRY BOL TE.-This leave was never given, awarded or even adjudged by the courts. It was granted by the Government of Victoria to a given number of public servants under certain conditions. That is where it began. What the court has said--

Mr. HOLDING.-The Premier said he did not care what the court said.

Sir HENRY BOL TE.-I said nothing of the sort.

Mr. HOLDING.-Of course, you did.

Questions [22 MARCH, 1972.] without-·Notice. 4399

The SPEAKER.-Order! I will ask the House to go on to the next question if there are any more interjections on the matter.

Sir HENRY BOLTE.-The honorable member asked the question but he does not like the answer. What has been granted over the years by the Government has had nothing to do with any court award, decision or judgment. The court commented tha t these matters should not be discriminatory, and I agree with that here and now. I will guarantee that it shall not be discriminatory. This question will arise later in the year, and by that time the honorable member will receive a reasonable answer.

MEDICAL CENTRE AT FALLS CREEK.

Mr. MITCHELL (Benambra).Can the Minister of Health inform the House whether the proposed medical centre at Falls Creek will be fully operational by the coming winter?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Health).-It is hoped that the medical centre at Falls Creek will be fully operational in time for the coming winter.

SCHOOL LEAVING EXAMINATION.

Mr. CRELLIN (Sandringham).There is a report in today's Herald--

The SPEAKER (Sir Vernon Christie).-Order! The honorable member should ask the question.

Mr. CRELLIN .-Has the Minister of Education seen the report in today's Herald of the Victorian Universities and Schools Examinations Board's intention to drop the school leaving examination?

Mr. FORDHAM.-It is a Communist plot.

Mr. CRELLIN.-The honorable member for Footscray knows all about Communist plots.

The SPEAKER.-Order! Question time should be devoted to questions and I invite the honorable member for

Sandriilgham to ignore arid not answer interjections,and to ask a question.

Mr. CRELLIN.-In view of the leaving certificate being a widely accepted and well-respected basic qualification, especially to young students--

The SPEAKER.-Order! The honorable member should ask a question.

Mr. CRELLIN.-Will the Minister please inform the House of the reasons being offered by the board for dropping this particular qualification?

Mr. THOMPSON (Minister of Education) .-This was not a decision, as implied by the honorable member for Sandringham, by the Government or by the Education Department. The decision was made by the Victorian Universities and Schools Examinations Board, which is a body set up under statutes of the universities and consists of approximately 40 members of whom more than half are from universities and slightly less than half from the independent and the State school systems.

For a number of years, it has been the practice to grant to "A" class schools, as they have been termed, the right to conduct internal leaving certificate examinations and for leaving certificates to be awarded on the basis of those examinations. In round figures, approximately two-thirds of the successful candidates have gained their leaving certificates through the award of certificates by "A" class schools, and the remainder have been required to sit for an external examination.

I do not know the reasons which have prompted the decision by the board. I did hear that the board intended to phase out the leaving certificate examination and allow each school to make its own awards. I believe it would be a great pity if no award was given upon the completion of fifth form. Approximately 70 per cent of Victorian students now reach form V. compared with about 23 per cent in the early 1950s. It is highly desirable that those who successfully


complete fifth form should receive some recognition of their standard of achievement.

LABELLING OF CIGARETTE PACKETS.

Mr. LIND (Dandenong).-Can the Minister of Health inform the House whether a decision has been made to place a warning notice on cigarette packets; if so, when is the decision likely to be implemented?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Health) .-The matter is still under review.

STATE SUPERANNUATION FUND. Mr. SHILTON (Midlands).-Further

to my question to the Premier and Treasurer last week regarding the inquiry into the State Superannuation Fund, can the honorable gentleman advise the House whether the delay in reaching a decision is in any way tied to a private agreement between the Premier and the Federal Government concerning the abolition of the means test?

Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer) .-1 regard that as an offensive question. The answer is, "No"; there is no truth whatsoever in it.

TRAMWAYS INDUSTRIAL DISPUTE.

Mr. TREZISE (Geelong North).Is the Minister of Transport aware that, following a breakdown in talks today between the Melbourne and Metropolitan Tramways Board and its daily-paid employees, a 24-hour tram strike is imminent? If the honorable gentleman is aware of this, or even if he is not, is he prepared immediately to convene a round-table conference between the parties concerned 'to discuss the pOSition in an endeavour to overcome the stoppage; if not, why n'Ot?

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Transport) .-For the benefit of honorable members, I shall recount the background of this dispute between the Tramways Board and its employees.

Mr. BORNSTEIN.-Chapter 1.

Mr. WILCOX.-I think it is important, as do honorable members opposite, and honorable members are entitled to all the facts. They are that for some time the tramways union and the Tramways Board have been negotiating on claims made under three heads. One concerns a workers compensation matter, the details of which I do not know. The second concerns a question of repatriation, the details of which I also do not know, but full agreement has been reached on those two matters, and reached properly between the Tramways Board as the employer and the representatives of the union on behalf of the employees. There is no reason why I should know more than I do about the matters because I have no function-nor does anyone in the Government-in the hiring and firing of tramways staff. Under an Act of this Parliament, that is entirely a matter for the Tramways Board.

Mr. BORNSTEIN.-That is what you are paid for.

The SPEAKER (Sir Vernon Christie).-Order! It should be the purpose of question time that after an honorable member has asked a question he should be able to hear the answer which should not be prolonged by continual interjections. I do ask honorable members to ask questions fairly and not to interject.

Mr. WILCOX.-The third head in the claims under negotiation and discussed between the Tramways Board and the union concerns sick leave and it is on that item that agreement cannot be reached. The unions want an additional five days sick leave and the Tramways Board has offered an additional three days. As I said yesterday in answer to a question, in round terms there were three claims and the Tramways Board have conceeded two and a half.

Sir HENRY BOLTE.-Two and threefifths.

Mr. WILCOX.-I am indebted to the Premier, who is very good with figures. If the tramways union, as it


threatens, holds a 24-hour stoppage in the near future, this will not be justified because the Tramways Board has done its best, having gone more than half way towards meeting the claims. The Tramways Board as the employer has acted properly in meeting the union which is the representative of the employees. If there is a 24-hour stoppage, then tramway employees are holding the travelling public to ransom and responsibility will be placed fairly and squarely on the heads of the tramways union.

TEACHERS TRIBUNAL. Mr. DIXON (St. Kilda).-Can the

Minister of Education advise whether it is a fact that Mr. Desailly today withdrew from the Teachers Tribunal? What is Mr. Desailly's record of withdrawing from this tribunal? Does he get paid while he is withdrawn? What is the Government's attitude to this?

The SPEAKER (Sir Vernon Christie ).-Order! I would suggest to the honorable member for St. Kilda that a question with such detail is far better put on notice.

EQUIPMENT FOR SPECIAL SCHOOLS.

Mr. FELL (Greensborough).What action does the Minister of Education propose to take to provide specialized equipment for special schools, such as Meglin Special School, Diamond Creek, where no projection or multi-purpose rooms are available, keeping in mind the problem of handicapped children coming from broken homes and the school not having a parents' committee?

Mr. THOMPSON (Minister of Education) .-If the honorable member for Greensborough cares to furnish details of the deficiency of equipment at this school, I shall see whether the Education Department can assist.

QUESTION TIME. Mr. DIXON (St. Kilda).-Mr.

Speaker, I rise to a point of order. My understanding of the custom of

this House during question time is that questions are asked from one side of the House and then from the other. I point out, however, that on three successive occasions during this period of questions without notice I have been on my feet after a question has been asked from the opposite side of the House, but I have not been able to ask it. I should like to know whether or not I am entitled to do so.

The SPEAKER (Sir Vernon Christie).-Order! I think the honorable member for st. Kilda is entitled to ask a question. The honorable member for Moonee Ponds.

YARRA RIVER POLLUTION. Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds).

Is the Minister of Health aware of reports that pollution of the Yarra River exceeds the level which is considered to be safe for swimming pools; if so, does the honorable gentleman intend to take immediate action to reduce the health hazard which exists?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Health) .-Department of Health standards of clean and germ-free condi tions in swimming pools are based on chlorinated indoor pools. They have no relation at all to the water which flows down the Yarra River through unsewered areas to the north and to the east of Melbourne, and which is fed by tributaries which contribute to the river's becoming an open drain as it passes through Melbourne.

From its mouth to about Spencer Street, the Yarra River is the responsibility of the Melbourne Harbor Trust. From Spencer Street to about Dight's Falls and further, it and its tributaries are the responsibility of the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works. Along the river farther east as it passes beyond the jurisdiction of the Board of Works, the cleanliness of its water is the responsibility of the municipalities through which it passes, some of which are unsewered. That is a res-

4402 Qu.estions . [ASSEMBLY.] without Notice.

:ponsibility which ·is· imposed by the provisions of the Health Act. Under the same Act, the· Commission of Public Health is responsible for the elimination of exhaust materials or discharge of trade wastes. My responsibility as Minister is concerned with trade wastes and the discharge of noxious liquids into the Yarra River.

TRACTOR SAFETY REGULATIONS. Mr. B. J. EVANS (Gippsland East) .

--Can the Minister of Labour and Industry inform the House of progress that has been made in the preparation of regulations under the tractor safety legislation and whether interested bodies will be given an opportunity of perusing the. regulations before they are proclaImed?

Mr. RAFFERTY (Minister of Labour and Industry) .-1 was recently asked this question. Last Tuesday the Executive Council proclaimed regulations relating to power take-offs. I think they become opera tive from March of next year, although off hand I am not certain of the date. Regarding other regulations which were recently discussed, I am still in consultation with the Government of New South Wales. It is hoped that the same regulations will apply in both States. I think a decision about that will be made in the very near future. The honorable member asked whether interested parties can ·put their views, but I point out that they have already had ample time and opportunity to do that. I remind the honorable member also that any regulations which are -made are subject to scrutiny by the Subordinate Legislation Committee of this Parliament.

TEACHERS TRIBUNAL. Mr. DIXON (St. Kilda).-Can the

Minister of Education inform the House whether Mr. Desailly today withdrew from· the Teachers Tri-. bunal? Can the Minister also info~

the House why· Mr. Desailly withdrew and, now that he has· withdrawn, whether Mr. Desailly is still being paid?

Mr. THOMPSON (Mjnister of Education) .-1 have received information to the effect that Mr. Desailly withdrew from the tribunal today. Whether he is in or out at the moment, 1 am not quite sure. It would be fair to say that if a prize were given for regular attendance, Mr. Desailly would not win it. Mr. Desailly is paid at the rate of $14,500 per annum, in round figures, and at that level of salary to expect regular attendance would not be unreasonable.

COMPENSATION FOR DISEASE CARRIERS.

Mr. WILKES (Northcote).-Can the Minister of Health advise the House whether the Department of Health pays compensation or gives assistance to persons who are found to be carriers of typhoid or exotic diseases and, as ·a result, have had their business activities terminated or their businesses confiscated?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Health) .-1 ask the honorable member to have the question placed on the Notice Paper.

TEACHERS TRIBUNAL. Mr. SUGGEIT (Bentleigh).-Fol

lowing his reply to the question asked by the honorable member for St. Kilda, I ask the Minister of Education whether he has any information on the reasons for the withdrawal of Mr. Desailly from the Teachers Tribunal. Further, is any Government policy involved in this matter?

Mr. THOMPSON (Minister of Education) .-1 am not quite certain of all the reasons which motivate Mr. Desailly's actions, but I hear that his withdrawal had something to do with the role of the Government representative, which, I should have thought, was basically a matter for the Govemm~nt itself.

Questions [22 MARCH, 1972.] without Notice. 4403;


Mr. KIRKWOOD (Preston).-Will the Minister of Transport be prepared to jaw jaw with the parties--

The SPEAKER (Sir Vernon Christie).-Order! The honorable member should use English.

Mr. KIRKWOOD.-Will the Minister be prepared to talk to the two parties involved in the tramways dispute to avoid a stoppage tomorrow?

The SPEAKER.-I am of the opinion that the same question was asked by the honorable member for Geelong North.

MOUNT CLEAR PRIMARY SCHOOL.

Mr. STEPHEN (Ballaarat South).Can the Minister of Education inform me when it is expected that further additions will be made to the primary school at Mount Clear?

Mr. THOMPSON (Minister of Education) .-1 understand that this rural sector of the honorable member's electorate is developing with such rapidity that there is an accommodation problem at the school. A church hall has been made available, and investigations are being made into the possibility of advancing the provision of permanent accommodation.

STATE ELECTRICITY COMMISSION INDUSTRIAL

DISPUTE. Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the

Opposition) .-Has the Premier read the decision of the Commonwealth Conciliation and Arbitration Commission in the matter of the metal trades award 1952 which was the case under which the recent dispute in the State Electricity Commission was dealt with? Is the honorable gentleman aware of those terms of the decision which requested that the unions and the State Electricity Commission should proceed to confer quickly in order to implement--

The SPEAKER (Sir Vernon Chrir-:tie).-The honorable member should ask a question.

Mr. HOLDING.-I am, in fact,. asking a question.

The SPEAKER.-Order! I have asked the Leader of the Opposition to ask a question. He should give a lead at question time. If there is to be too much preamble to questions, questions without notice will become impossible to handle.

Mr. HOLDING.-I will rephrase the question. Firstly, has the Premier read the decision in the metal trades award 1952 case, which was the decision concerning the recent State Electricity Commission stoppage? Secondly, has the attention of the honorable gentleman been directed to that section of the decision in which the Arbitration Commission quite specifically refers to the need for an urgent and necessary conference between the State Electricity Commission and the union to implement the recommendation of the Arbitration Commission.

The SPEAKER.-Order! The question should be brief and I think the honorable member has put a second question.

Mr. HOLDIING.-With great respect, Mr. Speaker, I am putting a question to the Premier and I am bound to put the circumstances fairly to him.

The SPEAKER.-The Leader of the Opposition has already asked a question. One question should be asked. I invite the Leader of the Opposition to ask the Premier a question.

Mr. HOLDING.-Has the Premier read the decision of the Conciliation and Arbitration Commission in the metal trades award 1952 case?

Sir HENRY BOLTE.-Referring to what?

Mr. HOLDING.-Referring quite specifically to the decision of the Arbitration Commission and its request that the State Electricity Commission and the unions confer to implement the recommendation of the commission.

The SPEAKER.-That is a question.

4404, Petition. [ASSEMBLY.] Marine Bill.

Mr. HOLDING.-Will the Premier ,allow such negotiations to take place?

Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer) .-The Leader of the Opposition is stretching the facts. I understand that his question implies that the Arbitration Commission directed the parties to confer and implement--

Mr. HOLDING.-I have asked whether you have read the decision.

Sir HENRY BOL TE.-I am answering the question as I heard it. It asked whether I had read something in 1952 about what is going to happen in 1972 and about the Arbitration Commission's directions. In the third point of the question the Leader of the Opposition used the expression "to implement". To implement what, I do not know, because there was no direction. As for the State Electricity Commission and the unions conferring on that issue, I believe they have arranged to confer, but not entirely for the purposes as explained' by the Leader of the Opposition.

PETITION. TERTIARY EnUCA TION FEES.

Mr. SIMMONDS (Reservoir) presented a petition from certain citizens associated with the La Trobe University praying that the House take such action as it may to abolish the payment of tertiary education fees. He stated that the petition was respectfully worded, in order and bore 70 signatures.

It was ordered that the petition be laid on the table.

COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS.

REPORT ON AUDITOR-GENERAL'S REPORT FOR 1970-71.

Mr. WHEELER (Essendon), chairman, presented a report from the Committee of Public Accounts upon the Auditor-General's report for 1970-71.

It was ordered that the report be laid on the table and be printed.

MARINE BILL. Mr. RAFFERTY (Minister of

Labour and Industry) moved for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Marine Act 1958.


The Bill was brought in and read a first time.

NURSES (AMENDMENT) BILL. Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of

Health) moved for leave to bring in a Bill to amend sections 38 and 38A of the Nurses Act 1958.

The motion was agreed to. The Bill was brought in and read

a first time.


The debate (adjourned from March 15) on the motion of Mr. Borthwick (Minister of Lands) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

Mr. CURNOW (Kara Kara).This is probably one of the smallest Bills ever introduced into this House. It simply makes provision for the payment of allowances to six members of the Central Advisory Council of the Vermin and Noxious Weeds Destruction Board. These members come to Melbourne about six times a year to confer with other members of the council who include the Minister of Lands and members of the board. In the past, they have received no expense payments; with the passage of this Bill, they will receive allowances such as are paid to members of other advisory councils.

The members of the advisory council come from such places as Bairnsdale, Flowerdale, and Swan Hill, which is 230 miles from Melbourne. They do a good job in ensuring that the State is kept free of vermin and noxious weeds. I understand from the chairman of the board that the allowances will be approximately $12 a day and 6 cents a mile for the use of a member's motor car. These

Vermin and Noxious [22 MARCH, 1972.] Weeds (Allowances) Bill. 4405

sums will have to be approved by the Governor in Council but I can see no reason why the requisite approval will not be given. I hope the Bill has a speedy passage.

Mr. TREWIN (Benalla).-The Country Party supports this small but important Bill. The work carried out by the members of the Central Advisory Council of the Vermin and Noxious Weeds Destruction Board is important to the State. For many years, men have made themselves available in an honorary capacity to assist departmental officers in controlling noxious weeds and vermin. The work done by local committees which were formed a few years ago has been magnificent. These committees meet in regional areas and certain members come to Melbourne to confer with the Minister and the board. If this process were not followed, there would be difficulty in obtaining up-to-date reports from many areas of the State.

The Vermin and Noxious Weeds Destruction Board could be meeting at a rather critical time. Unfortuna tely, some of the worst noxious weeds are spreading rapidly.

The SP,EAKER (Sir Vernon Christie).-Order! This Bill deals purely with allowances. The honorable member would be out of order in discussing the operations of the board.

Mr. TREWIN.-These men bring to the notice of the board the spread of noxious weeds, and the information they make available to the board is of paramount importance. Every assistance should be given to them to carry out their task. The Lands Department faces some difficulties in undertaking its work, but it will be assisted greatly by the persons who will receive travelling allowances under this Bill. Members of the Country Party support the Bill, which will enable fitting remuneration to be paid to these men.

The motion was agreed to-

The Bill was read a second time and committed, pro forma.

Mr. BORTHWICK (Minister of Lands) presented a message from his Excellency the Governor recommending that an appropriation be made from the Consolidated Fund for the purposes of this Bill.

A resolution in accordance with the recommendation was passed in Committee and adopted by the House.

The House went into Committee for the consideration of this Bill.

The clauses were agreed to, and the Bill was reported to the House without amendment, and passed through its remaining stages.

ADOPTION OF CHILDREN (AMENDMENT) BILL.

The debate (adjourned from March 15) on the motion of Mr. Reid (Attorney-General) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

Mr. BORNSTEIN (Brunswick East). -The Bill contains several amendments to the Adoption of Children Act which are unrelated in any underlying principle. Members of the Opposition will not oppose the measure or any of the amendments. The provisions contained in clause 2, which is the first substantive clause, will overcome the need, in an adoption which involves more than one State, for consent by a natural mother to be sought a second time. As the Attorney-General pointed out, quite often the process of obtaining consent on the second occasion involves the natural mother in a deal of anguish, and members of the Opposition fully subscribe to the amendlnent which will streamline the legislation.

The provisions contained in clause 3 will make it obligatory for the revocation of consent to an adoption to be lodged only with the County Court in Melbourne. Although members of the Opposition will not

4406 Adoption of Children (ASSEMBLY.] (Amimdmeni) Bill.

oppose this amendment, I wish to make it clear that we are unhappy about it. The original Adoption of Children Act provided that such revocation of consent could be lodged only at the County Court in Melbourne. However, the County Court Act 1958 defined the word "registrar " to include any registrar appointed under that Act, so the Social Welfare Department found itself in the situation where such revocations could be lodged in eighteen County Courts.

Members of the Opposition consider that the ability of a person who wished to revoke a consent to an adoption-in all cases this would be the natural pa'rents-was facilitated by it being possible to lodge a revocation in courts fairly close to the residence of the people concerned. In other words, the definition as it appeared in the County Court Act. enabled this to become a personalized community service. The effect of the proposed amendment will be to require a person who wishes to revoke consent to lodge that revocation with the County Court at Melbourne. This proposal seems to be contrary to the policy of decentralization to which the Government subscribes.

One would hope that, even at this stage, the Government would consider a suggestion whereby it would be made obligatory for the registrars of all County Courts in Victoria immediately to transfer to the County Court in Melbourne any revocation of consent lodged with them. This would establish a sort of central registry in Melbourne, and would overcome the objections that the Government has to the operation of the present system, which, to some extent, makes more difficult the work of lawyers and judges involved in adoption proceedings, and would at the same time maintain the lodgment of the revocation order as a personalized community service.

Another observation which may he pertinent to this clause reJates tn consents to adoption. Section 23 of

Mr. Bomstein.

the current Victorian legislation On adoption requires the consent of the mother to all adoptions. If the child is legitimate, the father is also required to give his consent. But if the child is illegitimate, the father has no such rights. Provided that the mother is in a fit condition and understands the nature of the consent, she may give consent to adoption within five days of the birth. During the next 30 days this consent is voidable on any ground if a revocation is lodged with the Registrar of the County Court. It is estimated that about three per cent of consents are revoked in this manner.

Although the rights of the child to a secure adoptive relationship enhanced by an early and speedy adoption procedure must be given full weight, the Government should also consider the stress suffered by the mother in many cases after birth and the fact that this stress may justify the imposition of a minimum period in which consent must not be given. I refer the Attorney-General to the English legislation which specifies a minimum period of six weeks. Such a provision is supported on the ground that full weight is given to the free considered judgment of the mother of what is in the best interests of the child. The present policy of the Government is that the interests of the child are paramount, and members of the Opposition fully subscribe to that

l' pO.ICy.

The other point I wish to make on consents to adoption is that the discrimination against the father of an illegitimate child may have considerable support owing to the nature and structure of our society which make it difficult for any unmarried father to rear a child. However, the exclusion of all fathers from the decision-making process is rather harsh. Members of the Opposition feel that a provision which allows the father to exercise a veto in certain circumstances, perhaps when he is paying maintenance, may be more just. I certainly recommend those suggestions to the Government.

Adoption of Children [22 MARCH, 1972.] (Amendment) Bill. 4407

Clause 4 will give the DirectorGeneral of Social We If-are far more discretion in determining whether he should undertake Dr maintain guardianship. This is a particularly difficult question and one in which it may never be possible tD obtain a solution which is satisfactory to everybody in the true sense of the term because the effect of the legislation is to prevent a child from being foisted on to the DirectorGeneral 'Of Social Welfare for the purpose of adoption but more truly for the purpose of ridding the parents of the child, usually because of a particular difficulty or deformity or something of that nature. Although the Director-General will now be given a discretion to renounce such guardianship or not to accept such guardianship, the question may still be validly asked whether the parents who are prepared to deliver themselves of children in such a way are really fit and proper persons to care for a child. This is a very difficult question. The Government took one view when it introduced the initial legislation and has now swung around to another view. The Opposition will not oppose the amendment, but will keep the effects of the amendment under close scrutiny.

Clause 5 brings New Zealand into the Commonwealth of Australia in respect to the recognition of adoption orders. The dominion now assumes the same status as any State or Territory of the Commonwealth of Australia and, similarly, adoptions in that country will be recognized in Victoria.

Clause 6 simplifies procedures for recognizing foreign adoption orders. The provision is rather intriguing, not because the Opposition objects to it-in fact the Opposition wholeheartedly supports the Simplification of such procedures for recognizing foreign adoption orders-but because the intentions of the AttorneyGeneral, and one would assume of the

Government in this matter, have been contradicted publicly by another member of Cabinet.

Mr. I. W. SMITH.-That is rubbish.

Mr. BORNSTEIN.-Obviously the Cabinet member knows to whom I am referring so I shall name him. The Bill will simplify the recognition of adoptions which have been approved in foreign countries and where the parents have brought the children tD Australia. However, the Minister for Social Welfare has gone 'On record in the Sun News-Pictorial of Tuesday, 11th January, as stating-

Charity begins at home. The department has its work 'cut out arranging the ,adoption of local orphans.

And I wish Ito encourage the adoption of local children.

I 'am not keen on the :idea of couples adopting overseas children, no matter what race or creed.

That statement was made in relation to a couple WhD live at Altona and who have secured the adoption of a Vietnamese waif. They assumed financial responsibility for this thirteen-months-old girl in July of last year and assumed legal responsibility for the child on 20th December.

On the one hand, by this Bill, the Attorney-General intimates that the Government will facilitate adoptions which have occurred in other countries when the children are brought here. On the other hand, the Minister for Social Welfare opposes the idea of couples adopting children in other countries. The Opposition believes that there should be no bar to the adoption procedures by virtue of race, creed or colour. Apparently, in this instance, and in other instances involving Vietnamese orphans, the Social Welfare Departrnent is adopting a policy of racial discrimination. It has placed all sorts of barriers in the way of the family in question.

The SP,EAKER (Sir Vernon Christie).-Does the honorable member think this is strictly relevant to the clause?

4408 Adoption of Children lASSEMBLY.] (Amendment) Bill.

Mr. BORNSTEIN.-The clause relates to foreign adoption orders and I submit that the case to which I am referring involves the approval for adoption by three High Court judges in Saigon of an orphan child by the name of Mai Thi Kim Hoa.

Mr. REID.-Was this case before the court in Saigon?

Mr. BORNSTEIN.-I am relying on a report in the Sun News-Pictorial of 10th March by Alan Trengove in which Mrs. Williams, who with her husband has adopted this child, is reported as saying-

Mai Suyin (the Williams' name for the orphan) is our child. Three judges of the High Court of Saigon have passed her into our custody.

Mr. I. W. SMITH.-What has that to do with the Social Welfare Department?

Mr. BORNSTEIN.-I can understand the Minister for Social Welfare asking the rhetorical question, " What has that to do with the Social Welfare Department" because, from his public statements to date, it is quite obvious that the honorable gentleman would like to forget about this wh'Ole matter, and understandably so, considering the public embarrassment it has caused to him. The Minister does not like to be reminded of the responsibilities of the Federal and State Governments towards the Vietnamese waifs, many of whom have an admixture of Vietnamese and Australian blood in the same way that similar situations have arisen in Japan and Korea.

The Immigration Department, and therefore the Federal Government, has recognized its responsibilities in this matter and decided that, provided that approval is received from the Social Welfare Department, it will grant visas for any of these children to enter Australia.

The SPEAKER (Sir Vernon Christie ).-1 think the honorable member is getting 'On to another subject now. The Bill relates to overseas adoption orders which are effective in this country.

Mr. BORNSTEIN.-I appeal to the humanity of the Minister for Social Welfare and urge the honorable gentleman to reconsider his previous attitudes in this case and to consider· the actions that his department, and therefore the Victorian Government, is taking in the light of the different attitudes that are adopted towards the same type of problem displayed by countries such as Canada, Britain and Europe generally. Clauses 7 and 8 are machinery provisions contingent upon earlier amendments and like the other provisions the Opposition offers no objection to them.

Mr. MITCHELL (Benambra).-The Country Party welc'Omes the measure for two reasons: Firstly, it has long been needed to adjust to modern times and, secondly, because it goes such a long way along the road of true humanity in dealing with these problems. Although we are used to it with this Government, members of the Country Party are horrified at the delay and the lethargy with which the Government has approached this humane answer to a very important problem. The Government is more concerned whether Bill Lawry should go to England, whether a professional ski instructor should compete in the Olympic Games or whether a horse is going to win at some racecourse. The Government does not get down to things like this and that is why members of the Country Party castigate it. We are wondering about this split in the Cabinet over the problem and why the Cabinet should disagree over a matter of sheer necessary humanity.

The Bill has been considered in the wider fields of Federal and State Governments and in another place. Although the honorable member for Brunswick East raised some important points, there is very little else that can be done. Perhaps the Minister could have a final check although I think in the main the legislation has been examined very thoroughly.

One of the reasons for a humane approach to this long-time problem is the change in modern life. In the old


days, when there was no birth control, more children were available for adoption. I have been amazed by the number of young couples who have complained to me or asked me to arrange adoptions when they cannot have children of their own. This is a li ttle shattering and even with the illegimate children at St. Josephs Baby Homes, there are not enough children for adoption.

The other day, I tried to get a little girl as a sister for a boy who had been adopted by a couple at Falls Creek. The new parents had done everything for this boy and in every way he is a happy and well-cared for child. Although the department admitted this, it said that it did not have any young girls available for adoption. It is necessary to do something to adjust the whole set-up of the modern concept of adoption.

The other assistant factor in adoptions of former times, whether we like it or not was the feeling of shame for the unmarried mother. In modern times, also, a young unmarried mother can earn the money to keep her child, and many of them are tigerishly possessive and do not need to have the child adopted as they did in the old days. Whatever we may feel about it, admittedly this is not so acute these days. Consequently, the situation regarding adoption is much more difficult than it was and anything that helps to make adoption happier for unfortunate people must be supported.

One area of adoption is the child born out of wedlock, but there is also the sha ttering aspect of young couples who for selfish or other reasons do not want to look after a child but desire to get rid of it. This seems to be something inexplicable and beyond human understanding, but we have to be realistic and realize that the problem exists.

Tardy though it is, the Bill goes a long way towards helping in some terms of human suffering and human feelings as well as in the mechanics of adoptions. Firstly, it will assist to eliminate the stigma of illegitimate birth. For too long in our society

we have had the haunting ghost of the previous birth certificate. Under this Bill, where an adoption has been finalized in the case of an unmarried mother or a couple who do not want to look after their child, a new certificate will be issued and there will be no reference to the child's previous history. To all intents and purposes he will be the child of the adoptive parents. This is a big step forward.

The other mechanical improvement, and I am proud that there is this consideration for human feelings, is that hitherto where a child had been brought from another State, there had to be a second approach to the mother before an adoption could be arranged. Under this enlightened measure, that second consent is no longer necessary. Consent which has been given in another State is to be recognized in Victoria, and this will save unfortunate girls from undergoing harrowing and painful interrogations. Adoptions will be dealt with by the County Court, and this will expedite matters. Previously, before any steps could be taken to adopt a child, the records of eighteen courts had to be examined, but that will now be no longer necessary. Matters concerning adoption have become centralized, and for once my party has no complaint about it.

The provisions of this measure will ensure that parents can no longer easily escape their responsibilities and dump their children on the State. I also applaud the recognition of adoption orders made in New Zealand. A child does not ask to be brought into the world, but when he is he should be entitled to take his place as an ordinary citizen.

Mr. WILKES (Northcote).-Despite the fact that a survey was conducted and recommendations were made in 1964 concerning child care, the Government chose to adopt only a few of them.

Since the enactment of the principal Act in 1964, there have been two methods of adopting childrenthrough the relevant Government

4410 Adoption of Children [ASSEMBLY.] (Amendment) Bill.

department, or through a voluntary agency. There is a vast distinction between the two methods. Adoption through the Social Welfare Department costs the adopting parents about $20 in stamp duty. The Opposition believes this to be quite repugnant.

Mr REID.-That is for the documents.

Mr. WILKES.-Yes, I realize that a stamp is not placed on the child, and that the charge of $15 or $20 is for administration. However, adoptions which are arranged by private agencies are much more expensive because the Government refuses to subsidize the legal fees involved. Adopting parents are exper,ted to engage their own solicitors. The Catholic social welfare section thought that it could have 300 babies a year adopted, and it almost reached that figure during the 1960s, but it has encountered difficulties because adopting parents must bear a heavy financial burden. The Government should consider some way in which to assist adoptions through private agencies. They are doing the work of the Government in a very thorough manner, and the Government should at least subsidize the salary of social workers employed by the agencies.

The SPIEAKER (Sir Vernon Christie).-I think the honorable member is getting on to a wider subject.

Mr. WILKES.-I am discussing the initial Act, Mr. Speaker.

The SPEAKER.-It is an amending Bill which is before the House, not the initial Act.

Mr. WILKES.-Yes, Mr. Speaker, but sometimes it is essential to refer specifically to the initial Act to make a point. If that were not so, debates in this House would be concerned only with very small amendments, which in the long term do not matter very much.

One important amendment contained in this measure is concerned with reciprocal rights of adoption

between the States and Territories of Australia and New Zealand, but many necessary amendments have been overlooked in this first attempt to amend the Adoption of Children Act. Every private agency has urged that the principal Act should be amended, but all of them must be painfully disappointed at the limited amendments which are proposed. Much more should be done.

In its attempt to amend the principal Act, the Government has made a paltry effort. The amendments contained in the measure do not go far enough. In no way do they attempt to overcome the problem with which voluntary adoption agencies are faced. As I have said before, the agencies are doing the work which the Government ought to be doing. The Government would not be put to great expense to subsidize the salaries of social workers or to pay the legal fees involved, especially when that expense is compared with what is required to keep a child in an institution for, say, twelve months. The Opposition believes that institutions other than hospitals should be available to house babies whilst they are awaiting adoption. I point out that many infants will never be adopted and they should be moved to appropriate institutions within the structure of the Social Welfare Department. In caring for babies awaiting adoption the State is involved in enormous expense, and hospitals should not have to bear the responsibility of caring for them; it should be the responsibility of the Social Welfare Department. This suggestion was put to the Minister previously in charge of the Social Welfare Departmentthe former Chief Secretary-but nothing was done about it.

Mr. A. T. EVANS.-Is not the demand for adoptions so keen that there is no waiting list?

Mr. WILKES.-The demand is keener than it was in 1968 or 1969, but that is not to say that adoption is merely a machinery procedure.

Adoption 'of Children [22 MARCH, 1972.] (Amendment) Bill. 4411,

Much inquiry is involved before an adoption is finalized. Lengthy investigation and much physical examination are involved before a child is chosen and matched with the adopting parents. A second adoption entails an even more complex procedure, for it is desirable that there should be a blending between the parents, the first adopted child and the second adopted child. Even after the second child is adopted, the agencies check to ensure that everything is satisfactory.

The Opposition believes that assistance should be given to private adoption agencies for legal expenses and the salaries paid to social workers. As the Attorney-General knows, the legal costs involved are large, and I believe the honorable gentleman also thinks that private agencies should be assisted in their operations and that adopting parents should be relieved of excessive legal costscosts which could amount to $200 or $300.

Proposed sub-section (3) of section 31 of the principal Act, as contained in clause 4, proposes that the Director-General of Social Welfare shall have a discretion whether to accept guardianship of a child of whom a general consent to adoption has been given. The DirectorGeneral cannot now reject a child who is the subject of a consent to adoption, and some people have discovered that signing a consent to adoption is a simple means of ridding themselves of owner's responsibility. That was referred to in the report of a survey of child care which was undertaken by a research officer, Mr. D. R. Merrett, B.A., in 1961.

Proposed sub-sections (4) and (5) of section 31 provide a procedure whereby children may be transferred to other States for adoption there, and vice versa. There have been a number of cases in which parents have adopted a child in Queensland. moved to Victoria, and then applied for an adoption in this State, only to find themselves hindered by the

procedure involved. The hindrance was unintentional, but was brought about by the fact that at the time there were no reciprocal agreements between the States.

Clause 5 proposes to amend section 41 of the principal Act by providing for the recognition in Victoria of orders made in other parts of Australia. For legal purposes, orders made in New Zealand are on the same footing as orders made in the States and Territories of Australia.

Mr. REID.-In the main, the provisions are legal p~ocedural ones.

Mr. WILKES.-Yes, but people were previously inhibited by provisions in the principal Act. I am sure that Father Perkins would be delighted to explain to the Attorney-General some of the problems concerning adoptions that he has experienced. He would also be able to tell the Attorney-General about the costs that are not subsidized by the Government.

Adoption is a complex matter, and the prime consideration should be the future of the child. However, sufficient emphasis can be placed in that area only if the necessary funds and facilities are made available. I strongly urge the Minister to consider assisting the voluntary adoption agencies operating under the 1964 legislation so that unimpeded they can continue their excellent work without huge cost to parents other than those who adopt children from the Social Welfare Department.

Mr. I. W. SMITH (Minister for Social Welfare) .-This Bill is essentially a matter of law, but as questions of welfare have been introduced into the debate by the three previous speakers I feel duty bound to answer them. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition dealt with the need for making adoptions easier, at the same time not detracting from the importance of the adoption being satisfactorv. In certain cases, the procedures proposed to be undertaken by means of this measure will

4412 Adoption of Children [ASSEMBL Y.] (Amendment) Bill.

go a long way towards making adoptions much easier, and there is no conflict between my department and the Law Department, or between the Attorney-General and myself. The Bill is essentially a legal measure and that is the reason why the Attorney-General introduced it.

Approximately twenty adoption agencies operate in Victoria, of which the Social Welfare Department is one, handling a little more than one-sixth of the cases.

Mr. BORNSTEIN.-The department purports to set-, the standards.

Mr. I. W. SMITH.-The department approves of all the adoption agencies, and they must have approval before they can operate. As pointed out by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, the costs involved in an adoption are fairly minimal for parents who adopt a child through the Social Welfare Department, but the honorable member misled the House when he said that other adoption agencies incurred great legal costs.

Mr. WILKES.-The parents are involved in heavy costs.

Mr. 1. W. SMITH.-I am sorry if I misunderstood the honorable member. In fact, it is the parents who must bear the legal costs and not the adoption agencies. These costs vary considerably, but I am led to believe tha t they range between $60 and $150, rather than the figure mentioned by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition.

Whilst it might be wise to assist people who are poor to adopt a child, if they are unable to raise sufficient funds to pay this comparatively small amount for legal advice, I suggest that they would have no hope of supporting the child. A sum of between $60 and $150 is a very small amount of money. The Government will continue its efforts to minimize the adoption legalities so that costs may be avoided, or reduced as far as possible.

Another point raised by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition related to the waiting period spent by children in hospitals before adoption.

Mr. WILKES.-The waiting period spent by children in nurseries.

Mr. I. W. SMITH.-That is so, and in hospitals. The department has paid close attention to this matter. It is not satisfactory for a child awaiting adoption to be in a hospital, taking up expensive bed space that could be used for medical care. However, the hospitals are well geared for the situation, having available the services of pediatricians and mothercraft nurses. Nevertheless, the nursery section at Allambie has recently been improved to a high standard to take some of the current burden of the hospitals.

The honorable member for Brunswick East contended that I adopted a strong attitude in opposing overseas adoptions and stated that my department and I were placing obstacles in the way of people, whom he named, who were endeavouring to adopt Vietnamese children. The facts are quite different, and again I point out to the honorable member that the Social Welfare Department is only one of approximately twenty adoption agencies. In the exercise of its requirement to provide a visa for any person entering Australia, the Commonwealth Government asked me whether my department would approve of the adoption of Vietnamese children. I was quick to point out to the Commonwealth Government that seven agencies in Victoria had qualified social workers who were capable of undertaking a report study on any potential adopting parents sufficient to satisfy the court that an adoption would be in order. This information was conveyed to parents who were endeavouring to arrange Vietnamese adoptions, but still the Commonwealth Government insisted that my department should approve of the adoptions. There is no earthly need


for my department to approve of overseas adoptions. It is not its function or responsibility to do so.

Mr. BORNSTEIN.-Who sets the standards for adoption?

Mr. I. W. SMITH.-Seven agencies in addition to the Social Welfare Department are capable of interviewing people and reporting to the court on even the most difficult placements.

Mr. BORNSTEIN.-This is passing the buck, and the Minister knows it.

Mr. 1. W. SMITH.-In the light of its experience, my department considers overseas adoptions to be difficult placements. A number of children of mixed race and ethnic background, who are difficult placements, are currently on the department's books awaiting adoption and are in the same category as overseas adoptions. As the Minister for Social Welfare and the person in charge of the State adoption agency, it is my first duty to make sure that the children already on the waiting list of the department receive priority over children coming into the State.

Until the difficult placement children of mixed race and ethnic backgrounds are placed, the State adoptioI). agency should not take the extra burden of helping people to bring children from oVerseas countries. I do not wish to understress this point, but the department has not prevented anyone from going to one of the other adoption agencies, which have well-qualified social workers and are capable of forming home studies and reporting to the court. If these people can persuade the agencies to undertake a home study, it is within their rights to do so. My department has told the Commonwealth Government that it will be satisfied if these agencies undertake home studies to report to the court on the suitability of the parents for adoption.

Mr. BORNSTEIN .-Will the Minister categorically deny that he has not put pressure on these agencies?

Mr. I. W. SMITH.-I state categorically that no pressure has been put on any agency not to undertake home studies for anyone, irrespective of whether they want overseas children. In their own right these agencies are capable of making up their minds on individual cases. Anything that has been said by the honorable member for Brunswick East to the contrary, or anything appearing in the press which would lead people to believe the department is deliberately stonewalling anyone's effort to adopt overseas children, is quite wrong. On the contrary, the department has done much to assist people by listing the names of the people concerned in the seven agencies to which I have referred. The department is correct in holding to its attitude that whilst it has difficult placements on its books awaiting adoption it should first exercise its responsibility to those children.

Mr. BORNSTEIN.-The child I referred to has already been adopted.

Mr. I. W. SMITH.-If I may take up the honorable member's interjection, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I understand he is referring to a child adopted by the Williams in Vietnam. At this stage, Australian courts do not recognize adoptions by the High Court in Vietnam. That is a fact of life which has nothing to do with me or my department. It is easy for the honorable member, in his ignorance, to criticize me.

I conclude by commending this measure to the House. Its enactment will provide a signifi"cant step forward in the process of making adoptions easier for many people and, at the same time, will in no way lower the adoption standards.


The Bill was read a second time and committed.

Clause 1 was agreed to.

Clause 2 (Repeal of provisions requiring authority to make arrangements) .

4414 Adoption of Children [ASSEMBLY. ] (Amendment) Bill.

Mr. REID (Attorney-General).This Bill proposes certain amendments to the Adoption .of Children Act 1964 and its provisions are limited to those portions of the Act which, . for legislative purposes, are still under the administration of the Attorney-General be'cause they relate primarily to legal procedures affecting the County Court. That is why I have presented the Bill in this House. Other considerations have been canvassed during the secondreading debate. This Bill has been introduced after a fairly full discussion by social welfare officers of all States, and the matter was then referred to the Standing Committee of Attorneys-General. It represents a good deal of uniform thought amongst all the States.

The Bill is not presented in any sense as a party measure; it has already passed through another place where it was fully debated. I have taken note of the various observations relating to the measure but I do not propose to examine them at this stage. I shall look at the workings of the measure, and if any amending legislation is necessary it will be introduced.

Mr. WILKES (Northcote).-I thank the Attorney-General for his explanation. I do not hold him responsible for the shortcomings because today's situation existed in 1968. I did not pluck my figures out of the sky. When the Law Institute was consulted on the costs of adoption by private agencies, it was stated that the fees varied from as low as $80 to as high as $200, which is a big variation. That is what it would cost parents, depending on the solicitor they chose to do the job.

I am glad that the Minister for Social Welfare is appreciative that a modern scientific holding centre should be established for babies awaiting adoption so that the beds they now occupy in the nurseries of nub lie hospitals can be vacated. Social workers and voluntary agencies envisage that such a holdinP. centre would have the assist'ance of

pediatricians, gynrecologists and child specialists to look after the children whilst they were awaiting adoption. I appeal to the Minister for Social Welfare to ensure that his department does something about it because it has neglected some important aspects of the Adoption of Children Act in the past. The Opposition is prepared to assist the Government to make the Act as workable as it should be in the interests of the children who have been adopted.

The clause was agreed to, as were the remaining clauses.

The Bill was reported to the House without amendment, and passed through its remaining stages.

TRUSTEE COMPANIES (NATIONAL TRUSTEES) BILL.

Mr. REID (Attorney-General).I move-


Its purpose is to amend the Trustee Companies Act 1958 to authorize the National Trustees Executors and Agency Company of Australasia Ltd. to alter its share capital. The Bill adopts the principles of the Trustee Companies (Equity Trustees) Act 1971.

The National Trustees Executors and Agency Company of Australasia Ltd. was incorporated in Victoria in 1887 and, as its name suggests, carries on business as a trustee company. The capital and shares of the company are subject to the restrictions contained in the Trustee Companies Act 1958, particularly the special provisions contained in item 4 of the Second Schedule to the Act. One of the common provisions to be found in the Second Schedule to the Act is a requirement that a trustee company shall leave uncalled a proportion of its share capital, which can be called up in the event of a liquidation. Such a provision appears in item 4. This capital is 'a type of ,guarantee fund to protect beneficiaries who might be entitled to sue the company for breach of trust.

T~ustee Comp~nies [22 MARCH, 1972.] (National Trus.te.es) : Bill. 4415

However, the company's paid capital of $92,565 is not a true reflection of its financial position, and while it would be appropriate to capitalize part of the company's reserves, the normal method of capitalizing reserves by the issue of bonus shares cannot be used, because the company is required to have an uncalled liability in respect of each share. The total of such liability is $185,130. Although the paid-up capital of the company is $92,565, its reserves and unappropriated profits are $395,020.

The Bill, therefore, proposes to fix the uncalled share capital at $185,130 and to insert provisions which will permi t other shares to be issued as fully-paid shares. This will have the effect of converting some of the reserves to capital which cannot in any circumstances be distributed, and improving the financial protection of the company and the protection given to shareholders. At present the reserves could be distributed by way of dividend to shareholders.

Clause 1 contains the usual short title and citation provisions. Clause 2 proposes the substitution of a new item 4 in the Second Schedule to the principal Act. I shall explain the proposed changes in the existing provisions.

(a) The restriction on the shareholding of individual members has been changed from 1,000 shares to a one ninety-second part of the nominal amount of the issued capital. At present this is equivalent to slightly more than 500 shares of $4, and the amended provision will enable a proportionate increase in individual shareholding as issued capital is increased.

(b) In lieu of the present requirement that no more than $2 a share shall be called up except in the event of winding up, a minimum uncalled capital or reserve liability of $185,130 is fixed. This is consistent with the prinoiples of the provision made in respect of the Equity Trustees ·Executors and Agency Co. Ltd.

(c) The provision as to liability, in the event of winding up, of persons who have been directors within the preceding two years is unchanged, save that in lieu of the liability being expressed as $2 for every share held and transferred during such period of two years it is now expressed as the uncalled capital and reserve liability on every such share.

(d) The provision requiring that the capital shall remain divided into shares of $4 and that the number of shares shall not be reduced below 50,000 is replaced by the provision enabling the company, subject to section 24 of the principal Act, to alter its share capital in accordance with the Companies Act other than by reducing its share capital. Section 24 gives to the Supreme Court power to restrain a voluntary winding up of a trustee company or disposal of shares in a trustee company.

It is emphasized that the Bill authorizes the company to alter its share capital in the same way as other companies are permitted to do by the Companies Act, except that in no circumstances can the company reduce its share capital. Furthermore, the existing protection for beneficiaries by means of uncalled capital of $185,130 is preserved. I commend the Bill to the House.

On the motion of Mr. FORDHAM (Footscray) , the debate was adjourned.

It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until Wednesday, March 29.

LEO CUSSEN INSTITUTE FOR CONTINUING LEGAL EDUCATION

BILL. Mr. REID (Attorney-General).-

I move-That this Bill be now read a second time.

The legal profession of Victoria has for some years been considering the needs of the profession in the field of post-graduate education. As honorable members will be aware, the "law is developing at an everincreasing rate due to changes in the

4416 Leo Cussen Institute [ASSEMBLY.] for Continuing Legal

social and commercial attitudes of the community. In these circumstances the legal profession must be kept abreast of these developments if it is to serve the people of Victoria adequately.

Accordingly, the legal profession considers that the time has come to establish an institution, with broad support not only from the profession but also from the universities, which could promote and arrange continuing legal education for members of the profession. Much work has been done in recent years by the Law Institute of Victoria, the Victorian Bar Council and the universities to provide post-graduate education, and the response by members of the profession has demonstrated their awareness of their needs in this regard. It is, however, considered that the efforts of these bodies should now be co-ordinated and administered by one institution, and for that purpose it is proposed to establish the institute referred to in the present Bill.

The proposed institute will not only provide the kind of post-graduate education for lawyers which I have mentioned, but also conduct courses of practical training for articled clerks to supplement the experience which they gain during their period of service under articles. This will mean that young lawyers entering the profession will have a wider and more thorough training than is possible for them to receive under articles. This training will provide better lawyers and, consequently, a better service to the community.

The Victoria Law Foundation has indicated that it will give financial support to the activities of the proposed institute. Accordingly, the Government has agreed to the request of the legal profession to introduce this Bill in order to establish the Leo Cussen Institute for Continuing Legal Education, with the objects set out in clause 4.

I draw the attention of honorable members to the name which it is proposed to give to the institute. Sir

Mr. Reid.

Leo Cussen was a very great Victorian judge, and it is the wish of the legal profession of this State that he should be commemorated by the establishment of the institute.

Sir Leo was originally trained as an engineer and in that capacity served the Victorian Railways in the design of some of the main railway lines of the State. In particular, he is generally credited with the solution of the difficult problem of taking the main line to Ballarat directly up the steep range near Rowsley, thus enabling the construction of a direct line to Ballarat without the necessity to travel via Geelong.

Sir Leo Cussen was admitted to practice as a barrister in 1886 and became a judge of the Supreme Court in 1906, serving on the bench until his death in 1933. He was a very great lawyer and, as I have said, a very great judge. Perhaps his greatest service to the State was his work on the statutes. He prepared the 1915 and 1928 consolidations of Victorian statute law, and also the Imperial Acts Application Act of 1922. For each of these undertakings he was formally thanked by Parliament.

I turn now to the clauses of the Bill, which require little explanation. Clause 1 is the usual citation provision. Clause 2 is the interpretation clause.

Clause 3 incorporates the Leo Cussen Institute for Continuing Legal Education in the usual form, and contains common provisions in respect of the common seal of the institute and judicial notice thereof. Clause 4 sets out the objects and powers of the institute. Clauses 5 and 6 deal with membership of the institute, the holding and vacation of the office of a member of the institute and related matters. Sub-clause (5) of clause 6 makes provision for the first members of the institute.

Clause 7 contains appropriate provisions in respect of an executive director of the institute. Clauses 8 and 9 make provision for election of a chairman and deputy chairman of

Education [22 MARCH, 1972.] Bill. 4417

the institute, and for meetings of the institute. Clause 10 enables the appointment of an assistant executive director and other officers of the institute. Clause 11 requires the institute to keep proper accounts and records and to ensure proper and adequate control of its moneys and other assets. It also requires that the accounts and records be available for inspection, that the accounts be audited annually, and that the institute submit to the Council of Legal Education, as soon as practicable after the end of each financial year, audited accounts and other documents properly recording the affairs of the institute.

The Government is happy to join with the legal profession in the commemoration of a great Victorian, Sir Leo Cussen, and I commend the Bill to the House.

On the motion of Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West), the debate was adjourned.

It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until Wednesday, March 29.

TAXATION APPEALS BILL. Mr. HAMER (Chief Secretary).


The Government has been concerned that until now the only avenue for appeal against decisions by taxation commissioners under tax legislation in this State has been to the Supreme Court, except for appeals to the Land Valuation Board of Review. Under Commonwealth tax legislation the principle of a Taxation Board of Review has been long established. After careful consideration of the matter the Government came to the view that it would be desirable for a Taxation Board of Review to be established in Victoria and accordingly gave an undertaking during the last sessional period of Parliament that a Bill establishing such a board would be introduced. This Bill fulfils that undertaking.

The Taxation Board of Review is based on and is very similar to the board of review established under the Commonwealth Income Tax Assessment Act and consists of a chairman and two other members appointed by the Governor in Council. Part I. of the Bill provides for the constitution of the Taxation Board of Review and closely follows the relevant sections of the Commonwealth legislation.

The Bill is straightforward and basically procedural in character. However, I should outline the procedure for applying to the Taxation Board of Review, which is established under Part II. of the measure.

In broad terms this procedure is as follows:-Where any taxpayer is dissatisfied with an assessment issued by a commissioner he may, as he may now under the existing legislation except in the case of the Stamps Act, object to the commissioner on the assessment. The commissioner may allow or disallow the objection and if the objection is disallowed the taxpayer may appeal against the commissioner's decision. Except, as I have mentioned, in the case of the Stamps Act, the procedure for objection and appeal to this stage will be no different from that which is currently in operation. However, whereas the existing legislation provides for the appeal to be made to the Supreme Court, this Bill gives the taxpayer the alternative choice of having the commissioner's decision reviewed by the Taxation Board of Review. The measure still provides for appeal to the Supreme Court if the taxpayer so desires.

It has been stated that the reason for having a Taxation Board of Review in the Commonwealth sphere is that it is supposed to be cheaper, more expeditious and more informal. I say" supposed to be" because that is not always so. It is also supposed to be better adapted than a court of law to decide straight-out questions of fact such as, for example. the value of shares in a proprietary company. I stress that, similar to the Commonwealth legislation, the

4418 Taxation [ASSEMBLY.] Appeals Bill;

taxpayer will have the choice of taking his objection to the Taxation Board of Review or of going to the Supreme Court.

Mr. Ross-EDWARDS.-Is 'the same name to be used for the board?

Mr. HAMER.-Yes, and there are reasons for using the same name. However, I can see the point made by the Leader of the Country Party; another word may be necessary to distinguish the State board from the Commonwealth board. I shall be prepared to consider that matter.

Because appeals may involve questions of the valuation of land, and because some years ago the Government established the Land Valuation Board of Review which hears appeals on objections against the valuation of land, this Bill will act in complementary fashion and will not conflict with the existing system where questions of the valuation of land are involved. It provides for so much of any commissioner's decision from which a taxpayer has appealed, that relates to the value of any land, to be referred to the Land Valuation Board of Review.

The existing procedure under the Stamps Act where a taxpayer is dissatisfied' with an assessment is by way of case stated to the Supreme Court. This is a rather outdated procedure which has been superseded in other State taxing legislation and in Commonwealth taxing legislation and it is altered by this Bill to put the taxpayer in the same position in regard to the Stamps Act as he is in regard to other State taxing Acts. Also, under the Stamps Act at present there are some elements of stamp duty which are collected on a return system, for example, duty on credit and rental arrangements and duty on share transactions. In these cases no provision is made in the present legislation for the issue of an assessment by the Comptroller of Stamps. Clause 18 of the Bill enables the Comptroller to issue an assessment in order that the new

objection and a'ppeal procedute ,may apply to all aspects of the StampS: Act. '

This Bill establishes a new principle in State taxation legislation which I believe will operate to pro-, mote the efficiency and equity of the taxation system in Victoria for the benefit of all concerned.

If honorable members study the operation of a board of review in the Commonwealth sphere, the decisions. it has made, and the weight those· decisions have carried, they can be' confident that if the right people are appointed to the State board it will' be of considerable benefit to the· people of Victoria, particularly thosewho are at present frustrated in taking an objection against an assessment because they have not the funds, the resources or the time to· challenge it in the Supreme Court. This measure will provide an important and useful alternative in these cases, and although it may lead to more appeals it will also lead to' more equity. I commend the Bill to the House.

On the motion of Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows), the debate was' adjourned.

Mr. HAMER (Chief Secretary).I move--

That the debate be adjourned until Wednesday. April 5.

Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows).I ask the Chief Secretary whether he will give an undertaking that the period of the adjournment of the debate will be extended should the honorable member for Sunshine, who will be handling the Bill for the Opposition, so desire.

Mr. HAMER (Chief Secretary).The adjournment will actually be for three weeks, although one would not expect much work to be done during the Easter week. I give the assurance sought by the honorable member, but as it is an important Bill I ask that every effort should be made to debate it when it is again called on.

Game [22 MARCH, 1972.] Bill. 4419

The motion was agreed to, and the debate was adjourned until Wednesday, April 5.


GAME BILL. Mr. HAMER (Chief Secretary).


This is a short but important Bill, the main purpose of which is to provide power for the Minister, with the consent of the Governor in Council, to purchase on behalf of the Crown any land, easement, right or privilege, in or over land which the Minister considers necessary or desirable for the purpose of the Act. It further enables any alienated land to be compulsorily acquired by the Crown and reserved under the Land Act 1958 for the purposes of the Game Act 1958. The Bill provides that any land shall not be so acquired unless it is required for the management of game and the preservation of wildlife.

At present there are 38 areas of land in Victoria which are reserved for the purposes of the Game Act 1958. They are spread over the State and fall into three classes:

Firstly, game reserves, which are . set aside for all water-birds and on which duck shooting is permitted during the open season. There are twenty of these reserves totalling about 62,000 acres and the better known ones are Tower Hill in the Western District and three areas at Kerang in Northern Victoria;

Secondly, game refuges, which are set aside for water-birds and on which shooting is prohibited at all times. As their name suggests these areas provide a refuge for game birds throughout the year. There are two such areas, Sale Common and Burgess Swamp near Dartmoor, with a combined area of 900 acres.

Thirdly, faunal reserves, which are set aside for general and specific :species of wildlife. There are sixteen

reserves totalling about 69,000 acres. Disturbance of wildlife in these areas is totally prohibited. The better known ones are Seal Rocks off Phillip Island, set aside for seals; Quail Island in Westernport Bay, for general wildlife; Lady Julia Percy Island off Port Fairy, for sea-birds and seals; and Yellingbo, where the helmeted honey eater, once thought to be extinct, has re-appeared and is doing well. The majority of these reserves have been in existence for many years and comprise land which has remained the property of the Crown, mainly because conversion to farmland was thought to be impracticable or uneconomic. These same areas have for centuries provided the habitats for, and the breeding grounds of, native animals and birds. These are the places where Victoria's wildlife continues to flourish, and they must be jealously protected for the delight of future generations.

Modern technology has enabled swamps to be drained, and forests to be cleared and converted relatively cheaply into arable farmland. Such preparation of land for agricultural purposes is being extended into areas which are adjacent to existing reserves and which are parts of the natural formations providing the conditions necessary for wildlife to exist and to breed. Any disturbance of these natural conditions can cause incalculable harm to the ecology of the reserve.

A case in point is Dowd's Morass in Gippsland. Its natural formation comprises some 4,000 acres of swampland. About half of this is a game reserve for waterfowl and the remainder is freehold. Any drainage works which may be carried out on the freehold sections of the Morass would lower the water levels in the reserve and this splendid game reserve could, at best, become a mere shadow of its former self or, at worst, be abandoned by the majority of waterfowl species which now inhabit it. The variety and number of water-birds to be found in Dowd's

4420 Game [ASSEMBLY.] Bill.

Morass has been increasing; in recent years two new spoonbill rookeries have been set up, and it is vital to protect them.

The Government is loath to interfere with the rights of any freeholder and although powers of compulsory acquisition are to be found in the statutes, it is Government policy to use them only as a last resort. This would be done when ordinary negotiation is impossible or has proved abortive. This policy will be maintained in the acquisition of land adjacent to game reserves. Since 1959 the Government has, by the purchase of additional land, extended the areas set aside for game reserves by some 60,000 acres. The cost has been met, in the main, by the Game Development Fund and, in several instances, by loan fund moneys. This expenditure now totals $262,000. It is expected that future purchases will be partly financed by moneys from the proposed shooters' licence fees.

Any land purchased by the Minister would, of course, be subject to normal negotiation between the buyer and the seller. The Bill provides that where land is to be compulsorily acquired the procedure will be carried out in accordance with the Lands Compensation Act 1958.

The second purpose of the Bill is a machinery measure. It gives the Governor in Council power to revoke by proclamation any proclamations made under the provisions of Game Acts prior to the Game Act 1928.

Paragraph (m) of sub-section (1) of section 43 of the Game Act 1958 allows a proclamation to be made to revoke any proclamation under that Act or any of the Acts repealed by that Act. However, no Acts made prior to the Game Act 1928 are specifically repealed, and a problem arises regarding proclamations under earlier Acts, particularly those relating to sanctuaries for native game. The Bill overcomes these problems.

Mr. Hamer.

The Bill is purely technical, but is needed to strengthen the law on game reserves. Honorable members may be surprised to learn that no power exists to acquire land compulsorily for wildlife reserves, although powers do exist under many statutes where it is considered necessary to acquire land for public purposes. I believe this is a rightful extension of the powers of compulsory acquisition. Past Governments may not have done as much as they should to protect waterbirds and other wildlife and their habitat, but that attitude has now changed. In the past Governments have managed by having land alienated and retaining it as swampland or as natural habitat for wildlife, but now there is a need to go further if wildlife is to be protected. In extreme cases, it may be necessary to exercise the powers of compulsory acquisition to protect a particular part of our heritage. I have much pleasure in commending the Bill to' the House.

On the motion of Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows), the debate was adjourned.

It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until Wednesday, April 5.

NURSES (AMENDMENT) BILL. Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of

Health) .-1 move-That this Bill be now read a second time.

This short Bill is introduced for the purpose of increasing the maximum amounts of certain fees which q:Iay be collected by the Victorian Nursing Council under the provisions of sections 38 and 38A of the Nurses Act 1958, No. 6328. The actual fees charged by the council are fixed by regulations made pursuant to section 45 of that Act, but these fees may not exceed those stated in sections 38 and 38A.

Because of increasing costs and the extension of its activities, the Victorian Nursing Council is faced with a need to obtain additional

Nurses (Amendment) [22 MARCH, 1972.] Bill. 4421

funds from whatever sources are available. Its principal source of revenue is the fees charged .to nurses and nurse trainees for examinations and to nurses for registration and the issue of annual practising certificates. This year these items represent an anticipated income of about $130,000 out of a total income of $155,000, the bulk of the balance being ·made up by a grant from the State of $22,000.

It is expected by the council that if it continues to operate at the present rate and with its income pegged at the present rates, as a result of increased costs, income will fall short of expenditure in the present year by approximately $38,000, and in 1972-73 by approximately $34,000. The council will be able to meet the loss this year from reserves but it will only be able to work next year by obtaining a greatly increased grant for existing services from the State or by depending upon an overdraft. The latter would provide only temporary relief.

The council has submitted the following proposals in regard to the maximum levels for fees under the Nurses Act:-

From To $ $

Registration of nurses' agents 8.40 20

Annual renewal of regis-tration of nurses' agents 2.10 5

Final examination-if any -and registration of a nurse 10 20

For any examination other than a final 4.20 10

For any certificate includ-ing an annual practis-ing certificate 2 5

For restoration of any name to the register 4.20 10

The maximum fees fixed for the registration of nurses' agents and the annual renewal of such registrations has not been varied since legislation

to register nurses agents was introduced in 1960. Maximum fees for the final examination of $10 and for the issue of a certificate of $2 were last fixed in 1966, and those for any other ·examination at $4.20 and for the restoration of any name to the register after removal of that name for any reason at $4.20 were last fixed in 1959.

As has been stated, the actual fees will be fixed by regulations and at this stage the Victorian Nursing Council considers that it will be able to provide examinations other than the final for less than $10 and needs only to make the charge for the annual practising certificate $4 instead of $5. This will enable the council to increase its income in future years if considered necessary.

On the motion of Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows), the debate was adjourned.

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Health) .-1 move-

That the debate be adjourned until Wednesday, March 29.

Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows).The honorable member for Dandenong will handle this measure for the Opposition, but, unfortunately, owing to circumstances beyond his control, the honorable member cannot be here tonight. I ask the Minister of Health if he is prepared to give an undertaking that, in the event of the honorable member for Dandenong not being ready to resume the debate on Wednesday next, he will agree to an extension of the period.

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Health) .-The House, the Government, and I are all well aware of the difficulties facing the honorable member for Dandenong. I readily agree to the suggestion made by the honorable member for Broadmeadows.

The motion was agreed to, and the debate was adjourned until Wednesday, March 29.

4422 Votes on [ASSEMBLY.] Account.

VOTES ON ACCOUNT. The House went into Committee of

Supply for the further consideration of the ·motion of Sir Henry Bolte (Premier and Treasurer) that a sum not exceeding $194·675 million be granted to Her Majesty on account for or towards defraying services for the year 1972-73.

Mr. WILTSHIRE (Syndal).-I congratulate the honorable member for Gisborne on his initial speech in this House. I have heard many maiden speeches and I regard his as one of the best I have heard. The honorable ,me-mber raised some pertinent points regarding the Melbourne Airport at Tullamarine and the tourist industry. It may be a coincidence but I should like to think that the honorable member's speech had something to do with the fact that, in this morning's paper, Qantas had advertisements along the lines of what the honorable .member has suggested, pointing out that there would be a larger number of overseas flights from Tullamarine.

In the Melbourne Airport, Victoria has an asset which is not fully used. With a new concept of flying overseas direct from Melbourne and people 'coming directly here, Victoria will have ,more tourist traffic. The Government and the State Parliament should help by insisting that anyone who is assisted in any way by Government finance and who is flying overseas should go direct from the Melbourne Airport. A few years ago I went to New Zealand and although I was originally told that I must first go to Sydney, as a result of my insisting on the point, I flew direct from Melbourne. It is the duty of the Government to ensure that this happens more often.

Tourism does not depend only on people from overseas. We should sell Victoria, to people all over Australia. When one is interstate, one hears people, particularly those in Sydney, talking about Melbourne'S bad weather, yet no other place in Australia has a better climate than

that of Melbourne. When people in Queensland are asked if they have been to Victoria, they say they have not because they do not like our weather. Yet they have never experienced it. These sentiments are built up by interstate rivalry and if we want to increase tourism in Victoria from other parts of Australia we must do something about these ·misconceptions.

For the first time since I have been a ,member of this House, the Federal Government, at the recent Premiers Conference, recognized the needs of the State Govern'ments and the role which they ,must play in the economy of the country by providing the States with more adequate ·finance. The role of the States and Provinces has been recognized in the United States of America and in Canada and now, for the first time, the need for the States in Australia to be provided with adequate finance has been recognized. At the instigation of the Victorian AttorneyGeneral, the Attorneys-General of all States are taking the preliminary steps towards a review of the Commonwealth Constitution, and at least some recognition is being given to the role of the States in the government of the country. This could lead to the Federal system working as it should. In the past, the States have received hand-outs frO'm the Commonwealth but now the Commonwealth is recognizing that the role of the States ·merits something more substantial than hand-outs. Perhaps not many of the present ,members will still be in this House when the final results of this first step are seen.

A subject of concern at the Premiers Conference was the present unemployment situation. However, when one considers the unemployment position in most advanced countries over the past ten years, one realizes that Australia and the Liberal Government have something to be proud of.


Vo,tes on [22 MARCH, 1972.] Account. 4423

Mr. WILTSHIRE.-For the benefit of the cc Johnnies-come-lately" on the

. Opposition benches, I suggest that they remember what happened when a Labor Government took office in England. There are 5 million unemployed in America. Only now is there any sign of excessive unemployment in Australia.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stokes).-Order! Therer are too many interjections, and I ask the honorable member to remember that he is speaking to the Supply Bill.

Mr. WILTSHIRE.-Thank you, Mr. Acting Chairman. The Premier and Treasurer mentioned grants to relieve unemployment and Opposition members have not stopped talking about the subject. I consider that I should receive the same latitude. In view of the rural recession and the fact that unemployment has been widespread throughout the world, I consider that Victoria has a good record in this regard. Following the Premiers Conference, the Government obtained grants to relieve the situation. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition voiced some criticism of the fact that this money is being spent on projects which have been decided by the Government. Of course that is the position, because the Government wants as many people as possible to be employed and .it does not want money to be wasted.

The rural recession has been caused by high production and the inability to sell that produce overseas. Over the years, the Government has believed in orderly marketing and has established marketing boards.

Mr. WILKES.-This Government did nothing of the sort. A Labor Government established the wool board.

Mr. WILTSHIRE.-The Deputy Leader of the Opposition can see only wool because he has so much of it over his eyes. The Government established marketing boards. The persons who comprise those boards are producers. If one wishes to sell

anything, one employs a salesman. Producers should not attempt to sell the commodities they produce. They should employ trained salesmen to compete overseas with trained salesmen from other countries. As soon as world supplies are anywhere near the demand, Australian producers are left .in the lurch; silos are full of grain and sheds are full of dried fruits and other products. The grower should not attempt to sell his produce. In some instances, a person who is a good talker is appointed to a marketing board, but he cannot sell anything against overseas salesmen.

Mr. WILKEs.-Does that remark apply to Keith Turnbull ?

Mr. WILTSHIRE.-He is not a salesman; he is in charge of the Grain Elevators Board and his job is not to sell grain. Many members of marketing boards are older than any member in this Chamber. One enjoys a trip overseas now and again, particularly if one is hawking goods which nobody else has. However, if everyone else has supplies one comes back without orders, and that is what is happening today.

The honorable member for Gippsland East referred to the dairying industry. Dairy farmers have never before been in a better position than they are in today. The honorable member said that many people in the industry have an income of only $2,000 a year. What he did not say was that he referred to a taxable income of $2,000, which is a different matter. Farmers can obtain a book which informs them how to avoid taxation. Probably a farmer with a taxable income of $2,000 would have a total income in excess of $8,000. I point out to the honorable member for Footscray, who is laughing, that I own a farm and I obtained a book on taxation from a member of the Opposition. I know that you, Mr. Acting Chairman, are a farmer and that your taxable income bears nO' relation to the amount invested in your farm. Admittedly, many farmers


are in distress, but it must be remembered that they enjoyed a period of twenty good years during which they put money aside far cantingencies. Many farms represent a capital investment of $100,000, $200,000 or more. In any other business af camp arable size a baakkeeper or accountant would be employed, but most farmers do this work themselves. They get into trouble because they dO' not know exactly what is happening. Until farmers operate their properties along business lines they will be in trouble, and until the commadities they produce are sold by properly trained salesmen through organizations which are properly administered they will fail.

Decentralization has almost become a dirty word. Members of the Opposition ask what is being done for the country. They forget that following a bush fire or a drought country people who suffer losses look for relief from the Government. I believe in decentralization and consider that without Government assistance people could not exist in the country. Decentralization is possible where there is a special geographical feature or special amenity such as exists at Portland, where there is a deep water port, or in the Latrobe Valley where coal deposits are located.

The honorable member for Gippsland East said that the farmer pays for all the tariffs. He overlooked the fact that only a few people in country districts pay tariffs compared with the large numbers in the city.

I turn now to the electorate which I represent. I was the local member when it was a rural area, and I take some credit for the fact that it is now the fastest-growing district in Australia and perhaps one of the fastest growing .in the world. I also take some credit for the high schools and the university which are located in the electorate and the population that was induced to settle there

Mr. Wiltshire.

because of the good amenities provided by -the Government and because af the good member representing the area. One matter which cancerns me is the Mulgrave by-pass road which will skirt around Dandenong and is planned only as far as Warrigal Raad. Unless concrete plans are proceeded with immediately, traffic will reach the end of the freeway and have no way of getting off. The South-Eastern Freeway was originally intended to join up with the Mulgrave by-pass road. However, if something is not done to ease the congestion at the city end of the South-Eastern Freeway, it will be impossible for the freeway to cater for the number of motorists who will desire to use it.

A conference has been held to try to arrive at some solutions to alleviate the congestion at the city end so that traffic from the Syndal area and beyond can get into Melbourne in less than an hour.

With the population growth in the Glen Waverley area, the existing double railway line can only service a certain number of trains a day. Until a loap is installed, nO' further improvement can be made in the rail service. By the time a train from Glen Waverley reaches Syndal which is only two stations away, all seats are taken. If congestion continues on the freeway, more people will be induced to travel by train which in turn will only aggravate the existing difficulties with the railways service. I cannot see any easing of the problem unless something is done.

The City of Waverley has a population of more than 100,000 and the growth ra te is phenomenal. The growth in population creates other problems. More trains cannot be run on the Glen Waverley line until something is done at the Melbourne end. The only way to cater for the additional population is to increase the capacity of the freeways.

Mr. BORNSTEIN.-That is rubbish.

Votes on [22 MARCH, 1972.] Account. 4425'

Mr. WILTSHIRE.-I do not think the honorable member for Brunswick East has ever been in the Glen Waverley area in his life or even knows where it is. One day I shall give him an escorted tour of the district. A fast-growing area needs public utilities such as transport, hospitals and 'a court house. The other honorable members who also represent the City of Waverley and I have tried for years to have a court house erected in the area. I have not given up yet, and I am sure they have not. I hope a court house will be erected in the area because in a city the size of Waverley, surrounded by developed areas, a court house is essential.

,Mr. BORNSTEIN.-To cater for the increase in crime.

Mr. WILTSHlRE.-People are on the increase, not crime. I do not run away when my constituents are in trouble; I am not the boy who stood on the burning deck. I want the people of Waverley to get the facilities that they deserve. The area has a university and a high school, and I hope that a new primary school will be constructed adjacent to the 'Monash Teachers College and Monash High School. The N oUing Hill Primary School, which is one of the oldest schools in the area, is situated in the middle of' an industrial area. I have urged the Education Department to resolve the situation by establishing a new primary school at 'Monash. Once the problem of obtaining sufficient land has been settled, I trust that the school will become a reality. The people in the area are suffering from disabilities, but they would be suffering from them for much longer if it were not for the' diligent members in the area.

I commend the Treasurer on the steps that he has taken in conjunction with the Federal Government. I again draw the attention of the Committee to the highlight of the recognition of the roles of the States in politics, the recognition of the need for a change in the Commonwealth Constitution and the pro-

Session 1972.-156

pOSed convention which was engendered and initiated by the AttorneyGeneral of Victoria. Admittedly, this is only in the initial stages and there is a long way to go. However, before one goes on any journey, one must make a start. In all these areas, there has been a need f.or someone with initiative and drive, and the Government has shown this initiative and drive.

Mr. SIMMONDS (Reservoir).-The remarks of the honorable member for Syndal can only be described as flippant. In a Supply debate, honorable members should be dealing with the priorities in the expenditure of funds and the sort of society the expenditure will create. The honorable member for Syndal started off on a flight, talked about the weather, dealt with handouts and unemployment and finally made some disparaging remarks about the country section of the community. The honorable member 'also made some play of the Premiers Conference and the way in which the Prime Minister carved up the amount of money which the States would be able to spend. The carving-up of the money was not intended to create a just society, but Was based Simply On political expediency.

The Liberal Party has mishandled the economic situation of this State and the Commonwealth. A blatant example of this mishandling ,is that -out of the paltry amount. made available for unemployment relief, the Treasurer allocated twice as much to the rural area as to the metropoHtan area, despite the higher incidence of unemployment in the metropolis. Undoubtedly, the honorable gentleman was conditioned by electoral prospects in country Vic-' toria and, because of a gerrymander, the Government is able to remain in offic'e with only 36 per cent of the primary votes. In examining the recent Gallup polls, I SUppose the Prime Minister would look upon 36' per cent as an achievement. It is a miracle that in a supposedly democratic society a Government could be elected on a 36 per cent vote.


The honorable member for Syndal talked about flight and tour-ism, but the residents of my electorate have a day-to-day battle for existence. Their main problem is to 'Obtain the necessary wherewithal to feed and clothe their families and to safeguard their employment, which is being constantly threatened.

Mr. A. T. EVANS.-Victoria has the lowest unemployment rate in the world.

'Mr. SIMMONDS.-I shall examine the unemployment rate in Victoria in the past month. The number of people receiving unemployment benefits increased by 40 per cent between January and February. this year.

Mr. STEPHEN.-That was because of the power strike.

Mr. SIMMONDS.-I direct the attention of the honorable member for Ballaarat South to the statement by the Prime Minister that members of the unions ,involved in the power strike were not eligible for . unemployment benefits. The number of unfilled vacancies in this State between January and February this year declined from 12,218 to 10,816. Therefore, fewer job opportunities are available at a time when more people are out of work. When people refer to the job gap, this is what they mean. The job gap is not simply people being out of work because of the current economic situation. This did not happen all of a sudden; it commenced in August, 1970, as a direct result of the Federal Budget of that year. It is also a direct result of the failure of Governments to deal with the technological changes which have occurred within industry throughout Australia.

In the manufacturing industries there has been an increase· of only 1,000 jobs during the past twelve months 'Out of a total increase of 66,000. To maintain the present level of employment, 172,000 additional jobs are needed in this country each year ..

Those people who have fought and struggled to ensure that working people in the community have the wherewithal to buy the goods that they produce are now fighting a losing battle. Prices increase because of an increase in profit margins. The working people of this nation have to make submissions to wage-fixing tribunals before receiving wage justice. For more than twenty years, the workers' share of the gross national product has maintained a relative position of about 50 per cent, although it has fluctuated over the years by not more than 2 'Or 3 per cent.

I shall . now quote figures with respect to retail trading but the Minister of Labour and Industry . might be able to provide more recent figures. From 1968 t'O 1970 more than 3,000 shops went out of business and approximately 9,000 fewer persons were employed in the retail industry. Due to the efforts of companies like Safeways, which have many friends in the Government who are prepared to listen t'O their submissions~ this will be a continuing trend. The provision of employment for these people should be faced up to.

The honorable member for Syndal spoke about country areas. I have. received a letter from an apprentice hairdresser who wrote to her hairdressing school. It is dated 1st December, 1971 and it sums up the situation which exists in rural and metropolitan areas. It reads---

When I was down at school ,last time we had two men from· Parliament come to ask how the siotuation was .in the country to do with jobs and trade. I am wn.tin·g this to you as you might, I hope, be interested and know whose hands to place this letter .in. At that stage I didn't know but when I ,returned my boss told me that either the other qualified or myself, then with a month of my apprenticeship to go, would have to find a job elsewhere. This has come about due to a reduction in trade and my boss couldn't afford to pay us both full wages. When I started the business carried a qualified, two apprentices and the boss and earlier more. Now it exists ·with one qualified and the boss. I feel this is no fault of our own as the. same ~hihg has happened to a girl in.

Votes on [22 MARCH, 1972.] Account.

Korumburra. This has come about by the fact that money is getting tight. More and more people ,tell us hairdressing has become too expensive to afford. This isn't because we charge too much as we are a lot cheaper than the others and run just barely on a minimum. The author of the letter was an apprentice at 'Leongatha who would have obtained her qualifications in one month's time. Subsequently she raised the question of the dual system of training ,which is permitted by the Government and which allows an unHmited number of people to enter the hairdressing trade through privately-owned hairdressing academies. She came to the conclusion that this was a major reason for the trade being saturated and that she would not be able to continue in the hairdressing trade in a country area after she had qualified.

This is happening in rural ,areas, and the Govern'ment has done nothing to alleviate the situation, although it has been magnanimous enough to provide funds for people to dig up weeds. The Government should ensure that decent employment is available to people in country areas. It should make a worthwhile contribution. '

,Mr. STEPHEN .---Have you a con-crete suggestion to ,make? '

Mr. SIM,MONDS.-Yes, the trade union movement asserts quite unequivocally that if conditions are such that every worker, cannot be emp~Qyed, the working week should De reduced. This has happened before, and will again while ;technological changes take place. As technology progresses it will not be possible to utilize the full work force for the same number .of hours, and the working week will have to 'be reduced. It is only a matter of time. I remind the Committee that in the past fifteen years there have been great discoveries of ,minerals-iron ore, alumina, and so on-and also oil and natural gas. Royalties payable to the State have risen by 300 per cent in the past year, and I have no doubt that company' profits have risen at the' same rate. :' '

According t6 a survey 'published in the Australian, between June and December of 1971 prices in Australia increased by 14·1 per cent in relation to all sorts of things which go to :matters of life and death; I use that expression, because one of the ~argest increases which have oc,curred is in the cost of burial.

Concerning profits, I point out that General Motors-Holden's Pty. Ltd. has sent a tremendous sum of money away from this country in recent years, and that this year it has announced a -profit of $17 ,million. I remind the Committee that when the TFeasurer once brought about $17·9 million from Canberra he described it as a magnificent sum; I imagine that General Motors-Hol-.

"den's could say the same thing. How much of that sum could have been used to. sustain the 2,000 men who were sacked at Christmas?'

Throughout the metal trades industry, contractors are in, a serious position because of the reduced sale of car parts and the fact that companies are ·placing orders in overseas countries. This is to the detriment of Australian industry. I believe it is necessary toO have a measure of cQntrol over foreign ownership of Victorian industries. Does any honorable member believe that the recent State Electricity Commission industrial dispute was won. ,only be-, cause a good argument was ad ... vanced? It was woQn because the workers entered the struggle. with a firm conviction about the issue involved. The increase that they were' successful, in gaining was won in the face of strong opposition by this Libera] Government.

The fact :that the working' people in the community have a deeper understanding 'oQf their role in society today cannot be questioned and is illustrated' by their changed attitude towards the introduction of a shorter working week.' Twelve months ago, perhaps only one person in ten would' have said it ·was appropriate for' the' working week to be "reduced to' 35' hO!lrs~:i' '~"';", 1.\i,,:: ',': ;' "J. : " ,

4428 Votes. on. [ASSEMBLY.] Account. ,

Mr. STEPHEN.-Now two people in ten would say it.

Mr. SIMMONDS.-Yes. That is an increase of 100 per ,cent, and the people are 'still learning.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stokes).-I remind the honorable member for Reservoir that. he should confine his remarks to Supply and should not deal with general economic conditions.

Mr. SIMMONDS.-Mr. Acting Chairman, the way in which Supply is used creates the working conditions of this State.

The Department of Labour and ~ndustry has a serious responsibility In ensuring that safer ·conditions obtain in workshops and that wages board determinations are observed. The department should also consider the position of mannequins and models who for three years have urged that the Department of Labour and Industry should enforce the wages board determination which provides that the employer should pay them directly and that the agency concerned should not be in the middle. Only last week $16 000 was owing to models who had' allowed an agency to manage their affairs. The department has lodged two successful prosecutions, but in each of them a penalty of only $5 was imposed.

The question of' industrial accidents is ·most important; in fact, it has been suggested that a cessation of industrial accidents. would be equivalent to saving the provision of a. 600-bed hospital which would have to w·ork full time. The Victorian Railways lacks funds, a.nd working conditions are such that more than 1 million man-hours were lost owing to industrial accidents in the past three years. Employees try desperately to build the image of the Railway Department, but under the present system they are prevented from doing so. Only last week I was at the J olimont railway workshops and saw a carriage in the centre ~f the workshops. It could not go further because it was 3 feet out of alignment and would not fit the

tracks. Any reasonable person would have written it off after a cursory examination, but the car is still ;there and it is ·causingconcern to the workers. because it occupies much needed space. It was .only after asking a question in the House this week that I was informed that it is now written off. I a·m at a loss to understand why that could not have been done five months ago, but it is typical of the Government's attitude towards the Victorian Railways. No consideration. 'is shown to railway employees; indeed, over the years the Government has resisted any attemt to improve workshop conditions which doubtless has had some effect on safe working conditions.

I turn now to discuss the situation in which former railway employees now find themselves. Thro~ghout their working lives they contrIbuted to a superannuation fund, but although the salaries of public servants were recently increased by 9 per cent, no attempt has been made to restore the purchasing power of superannuated railway workers. The State Superannuation Fund showed a surplus of $21.5 million at 30th June, 1968, and has $264,106,480 in investments at cost. The triennial review is now taking place, and it is to be hoped that former railway employees will soon receive an increase in superannuation benefits. Over the past three years the cost 'Of price increases has been borne by these people with a resultant deterioration in their living standards particul·arly those who are superan~ nuated. An immediate adjustment should be made to the income of persons in this category so that in the remaining years of their lives they may eke out an existence with a modicum of comfort.

Adverting to the question of unemployment, I point out that unemployment is not always abhorred by everyone. As a matter of fact, an organization of Queensland employers, when discussing the fact that unemployment had reached 2 per

Votes on [22 MARCH, 1972.] Account. 4429

cent in the community, was not in the least concerned. In fact, it ,considered that this country needed an unemployment rate of 4! per cent to: discipline the work force.

Recently when the Australian Council of Trade Unions sought to alleviate the plight of unemployed people who had been caught up with arrears .of payments on their hirepurchase contracts, the Treasurer went on record as saying that these commitments were a good thing in that they disciplined the workers to accept reduced living standards. Even the hire-purchase companies, which charge extortionate rates of interest, were prepared to meet the moratorium on payments suggested by the Australian Council of Trade Unions, but the Treasurer is content to leave the burden on the backs of the workers and grind them into the dust.


The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stokes).-Order! The honorable member for Reservoir, without interjection.

Mr. SIMMONDS.-It is all very well for members on the Government side of the Chamber to laugh, because their decisions are usually made in cosy surroundings. When the workers make decisions they usually do so in their lunch time, perhaps sitting on a box eating a sandwich, standing on a cold, concrete floor. When the boss receives their demands he consults his organization and I am certain that the amenities in which he holds his discussions are a great deal better than those enjoyed by the workers. The boss does not have the economic stress confronting him which is felt by the workers. The worker knows that if he does not receive his wages his family must suffer.

There is no question of the employers' capacity to pay, particularly in the field 'Of insurance. Only last week the insurance company operated by the Victorian Automobile Chamber

of Commerce announced that in its first .twelve months of operations it had made a profit of 19·7 per cent on paid-up capital, and this year it has returned a profit of 22 per cent. This profit was derived from those employers of labour who are required to insure for workers compensation, and it is a fact that the excess payments of workers compensation premiums reached 43 per cent. When one looks at .the problems confronting the Minister for Social Welfare one can appreciate-

Mr. JONA (,Hawthorn).-On a point of order, Mr. Acting Chairman, I draw your attention to your earlier ruling when you referred to the irrelevancies of the honorable member's remarks in relation to the debate on Supply.

Mr. GINIFER (Deer Park).-Speaking to the point of order, Mr. Acting Chairman, I point out that my colleague is discussing workers compensation and insurance, which is related to the State Accident Insurance Office. This is part of the administration ,of the State and is a responsibility of this Government.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stokes).-In regard to the pOint of order raised by the honorable member for Hawthorn, it must be recognized, particularly in industrial undertakings 'where time and money are involved, that it is difficult to make a distinction. 'When I drew the attention of the Committee to the fact that too much emphasis was being placed on the individual employee, there may have been some point which made the honorable member for Hawthorn speak as he did. However, the present position is not parallel and I suggest that the honor .. able member for Reservoir continue wi th his speech.

Mr. SIMMONDS (Reservoir).-I thank you for your guidance, Mr. Acting Chairman. I was about to refer to the problems confronting the Minister for SOcial Welfare and I have no doubt that many of the people seeking assistance from his

4430 Votes on , [ASSEMBLY.] Account ..

. department are almost permanently on workers compensation. An examination of the table of workers compensation payments will indicate that over the years this State has . regressed from the position of the best State to that of the worst. The current rate of compensation for an .injured worker is $26 a week. When that figure is compared with the poverty line figure recently published by the Brotherhood of St. Laurence-

The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. ,Stokes).-Order! The honorable member's time has expired. If no other honorable member rises in his .place, the honorable member for Reservoir may continue for a further fifteen minutes.

Mr. SIMMONDS.-I thank the 'Committee for its indulgence, because it is important that I make this point. The position of an injured worker who Is receiving workers compensaton of $26 a week is extremely difficult in view of the present cost of living. The .Institute of Applied Economic and Social Research of the University of Melbourne has quoted a figure of '~pproximately $45 as the poverty .line for a family of a man, his wife and one child. Therefore, it can be seen that the workers compensation payment of $26 a week· will· simply place such a family in the hands of the Social Welfare Department.

The simple solution to this situation is to provide adequate compensation for injured workers. Action of this . type has been taken in other States. Recently the metal trades industry arranged for the payment of full wages to injured workers for a period of 26 weeks. Surely it is possible for this Government to l.egislate so that. employers . who are not prepared to meet this position are forced to do so. The insurance companies are earning an ample margin of profit to make higher workers compensation payrp~n~.s ~nd the' GQvernmen~ has a

responsibility to legislate in the interests of injured workers to ensure that they do not suffer hardship as a result of injuries sustained in the course of their employment. The question of responsibility in this area goes a little further than the loss of working time and wages to the worker. The injured worker suffers his disability, not for 40 hours a week, but for the full period of his incapacity which may extend over many weeks. This point 'should be covered by legislation to ensure that industry meets .its commitments to injured workers.

Proper attention to industrial safety can also do much to improve the economics of industry generally. In terms of loss to industry and the community the figures are enormous and measures should be taken to correct the position. On 21st June, 1971, decisions relating to safety measures on building sites were made by the Victorian Trades Hall Council with respect to building construction in this State; These safety measures should be consolidated in one Act and be controlled by a single authority. If this concept is acknowledged by the Government and the necessary funds and resources' are made available, the loss of life and limb sustained in building construction work can be considerably reduced. Only this week my attention was drawn to a building under construction in the city where cement was being spilled indiscriminately, indicating that there was no proper supervision of this part of the job. It is apparent that urgent measures are necessary to deal with industrial safety. '

The granting of Supply in this instance cannot be supported by the Opposition. The priorities of the Government must be reversed, but they cannot be reversed by a Government that refuses to interfere with private enterprise. The Government should be determined to act. to place the interests of people before . that of profit ~nd property.


Mr. MACLELLAN (Gippsland West) .-1 congratulate the honorable member for Gisborne on his contribution to the Supply debate and commend him for his remarks to the Committee, which I found interesting and thoughtful. Of course, it would not be inappropriate to commend the honorable member for Reservoir for making such a rousing and cheerful speech to the Committee tonight in regard to the policies he represents in relation to a 35-hour week and workers' power. All honorable members have heard of black power, and now we are hearing of blue-collar power, when negotiations and appearances before .industrial tribunals have become meaningless forms. The reality of the situation is that if men go on strike they will receive their money - there are "bikkies"· for those who go on strike and nothing for those who do not. This .is the line of industrial reasoning which is preached by the honorable member for Reservoir and people like him. The honorable member is to be commended for the frankness with which he addressed the Committee on the subject. No honorable member who heard him speak can avo.id the warning.

If honorable members direct their attention to the Supply schedule they will see that sums of money are to be provided for most of the services of the State. Division 740 will provide $3· 760 million for purposes of water supply. This is an important subject in most rural electorates. The primary objective of the State Rivers and Water Supply Commission is to supply urban areas with water, which is passed through farmlands or supplied to factories that are provided with water by agreement. However, the primary objective of the Water Commission is to supply urban areas. The Government should look at this primary aim to see whether urban areas should not also include factories and industrial areas.

If we are conscious of a need to provide industry in country areas; we should be conscious of the need

of these industrial factories for a supply of water, even though they are not always located in urban areas.

In my electorate I have the problem of a large butter factory which is outside the water supply area. It applied to the water trust for a water supply. I must compliment the Minister for his sympathy and interest in the matter, but it all boils down to a question iQf money. I am delighted to see that the expenditure on water supply and other items has been increased but I feel that there is a need to re-examine the priorities so that a priority is not set up of providing domestic supplies to houses and ignoring the need to supply factories that create jobs for the householders.

Naturally, on the subject of education, almos't every honorable member has problems. In my electorate there is the problem of a shortage of staff. With other honorable members who have asked questions on this subject, I have taken up the matter ,with the Minister of Education. I was delighted to hear that schools in the electorate of some honorable members have staffs which exceed the recognized Teachers Tribunal formula. That .would imply that there will be the opportunity of moving some members of those staffs to high schools in my electorate. I understand that the secondary service had eighteen graduates in art and crafts, which does not seem a large number and indeed is not. But the Victorian Secondary Teachers Association imposes a standard whereby anyone who wishes to teach art and crafts must have the matriculation certificate, and naturally the number of applicants for art and crafts studentships with matriculation is limited.

Of the eighteen graduates from college this year, one was appointed to a school in my electorate. He wrote what I believe was quite a charming letter indicating that he did not like to go to the 'Country


and if the department wished to contact him he would be at a certain address. I only hope that the department found him at the address and 'that it took action to recover whatever money it could from him. This was a gentleman who refused to take up duty at a country school and has deprived a school of woodwork classes. Woodwork may not be the most important 'Of subjects in a high school, but when the question arises of whether someone can be transferred from a technical school to ta'ke up woodwork classes at a high school, one gets into the area in which the honorable member for Greensborough dabbles and finds that one teacher 'Organization will not allow the entrance of a member of another teacher organization.

In other words, a sort 'Of snobbery exists within the Government educati'On ,field between the teacher organizations. A teacher who is good er.ough to teach in a technical school 1s not good enough or weIIequipr led enough t'O teach woodwork in a high school. This needs exar .. linati'On and it is time professional 'Organizations stopped working as ~eparate sections and began to work as an education profession, because that is what they are trying to achieve for their organizations. These differences, which are artificially created, deprive school children of the services of teachers and they should be removed as soon as possible.

I do not like seeing a high school without a woodwork teacher S'O that ~47,OOO of pubHc money bound up In lathes, rooms and equipment is not used beCause the Victorian Secondary Teachers Association is bound by some extraordinary policy of its own to reject any teacher who would be quaHfied to teach in a technical school not m'Ore than 10 miles from this high school. This sort of snobbery and a'ttitude lets down the children, and it is time that honorable members spoke on the jssue! I have wrjtten to the

Mr. Maclellan.

'Victorian Secondary Teachers Association branch at this school in my electorate and have asked it 1'0 support action against the teacher who did not take up duty at the school.

Reference is made in the Supply schedule to the Town and Country Planning Board. I have no particular criticism of it as a board; it pr.obably does all that it should. But when some poor little applicant applies to. build a panel-beating works in the country, he finds himself embroiled in a most extraordinary argument. He approaches his municipality, but there are all kinds of forms to fill in, some yellow and some white. He puts them in, but he waits and he waits. Honorable members talk about decentralization, but when it comes down to the grass roots of erecting a building and getting to work, every obstacle is put in the applicant's way. In this case it relates to a block of land where I do not suppose one could ,find the building if one looked.

Objection eould not be taken on aesthetic grounds. Interim development orders are found under town planning schemes. I could refer to the little township of Kilcunda. I remember a dispute on the uses of certain lands. The applicants were told that they c'Ould not possibly do what they wanted because they were not in an industrial zone. I do not wish to deny Kilcunda, which is a small town with one hotel. The hotel wished to build a small motel unit next door, but unfortunately the appHGant was tolq that it could not be d'One because it was in a residential zone. If any honorable member drove by and blinked slightly or was attending to his .driving, he could miss Kilcunda. Apparently the Town and Country Planning Board and the several semi .. Government departments and authorities that are involved in town planning seena unconcerned at small activities, small industries and .small developments which collectively could mean a. lot in small communities. They apply a sophistication in development i they apply standards


for a service station near St. John's, Toorak, to the needs of a small country town. This sort of sophistication might be well matched against an international oil company, but it is hardly the sort of sophistication that is needed to make determinations and decisions in country areas.

Much of the debate has been concerned with the problem of unemployment. All honorable members are concerned with this aspect. Mr. Acting Chairman, you have been most careful and considerate in your rulings to give honorable members the opportunity of commenting upon the current programme. We must remind ourselves that we 'have not heard a lot about the pftogramme of unemployment relief, either in the metropolitan areas or in country areas. We must remind ourselves that we are dealing with more than $6 million of Commonwealth money, unmatched, to be distributed amongst communities in the rural area. If I take the comments of the honorable member for Geelong as correct, 166 country municipalities are involved. A number of questions need to be asked about this spending, and this Parliament has to find the answers.

We must ask ourselves whether this programme should be used to employ 2,500 men. The Leader of the Opposition and the Deputy Leader of the Opposition might describe this as menial employment. Should these men be employed on work with a low material content or should 500 of them be employed for a more worth-while result because they would use more concrete and more machines? If we could put it squarely in the terms of the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, is he more concerned about unemployed people or unemployed machines? He suggested, in effect, that we ought to duplicate certain railway lines. Certainly he is not suggesting that this should be done with wheel barrows and spades, I

agree that the Cyclone Forging Company at Wonthaggi would welcome a larger order for spades.

The honorable member must be conscious of the fact that we are dealing with unemployed men w.ith families. If we take the hne enunciated by the Leader of the Opposition we must believe that the people on unemployment benefits are below the poverty line. If we accept his argument that there must be a higher works element and a lower labour content, the answer is that more unemployed men must be below the poverty line. This is not what was said, but it is the logical conclusion. I know that taking anything to a logical conclusion would offend the honorable member for Broadmeadows. However, that is the logical conclusion of the proposals put before this Com'mittee when the Leader of the Opposition sneered at the works programme. If the honorable member for Broadmeadows is at all confused, I can give him some references to the remarks of the Leader of the Opposition, who, at page 4159 of Hansard, asked-whether it is a good thing for the unemployed to dig roads up outside the Echuca Town Hall.

The second reference is at page 4167 of Hansard relating to three men beautifying the park at Swan Hill. At page 4168 reference is made to five unskilled men repainting buildings and undertaking clearing works at the Charlton park. These were the only references by the Leader of the Opposition to the works programme under the unemployment relief scheme. In the absence of any 'other comment, the effect of these references was a sneering belittlement. It really amounted to saying that 166 municipalities which 'are quaHfied to participate in the scheme are incompetent or irresponsible, yet these municipalities were undertaking a programme with the conscious responsibility of providing employment for people in their areas. This is most important. Whether there should be a high


labour content or a low labour content is a critical decision to be made, and this has been ignored by members of the Opposition.

Mr. BORNSTEIN.-That is enough of unemployment for the moment!

IMr. MA:CLELLAN.-It is not enough of unemployment and it must never be enough of unemployment while it exists. Unemployment should not be used as a political argument before this Committee.

Mr. BORNSTEIN.-Why should there be unemployment?

Mr. MACLELLAN.-I acknowledge the interjection of the honorable member for Brunswick East. Should we leave the responsibility for the wDrks programme entirely at the discretion 'Of the municipalities? Members of the Opposition have given a very confusing answer.

The next question is one that the Deputy Leader of the Opposition did not ask. What happens in those municipalities which do not bother to make an application? We must concern ourselves with those municipalities which for one reason or another - they may have justifiable reasons - fail to make an application. Is some other organization to make an application in place of them? As members of Parliament are we to take on the burden of ensuring that this is done, or do we ignore the whole matter as the Leader and Deputy Leader of the Opposition and other Labor spokesmen have done? Do we just forget those places in Victoria which have not yet made an application?

It is significant that the Swan Hill Shire Council received '$1,400 to provide employment for fifteen weeks, and the Lillydale Shire Council received $1,444 to provide employment for 27 weeks. In other words, one municipality was able to 'provide an extra twelve weeks employment for only an additional $44.

This is of significance in considering how many persons registered for unemployment benefits are brought up above the poverty line or how many are left below it. Those municipalities which have a high labour content in their works programmes are obviously achieving more if they can employ more people, but they may not be curing the basic problem of providing work for people 'On a daily, weekly or monthly basis.

A table on page 3992 of Hansard provided by the Premier and Treasurer, in answer to a question on notice, shows that the City of Echuca received a grant under the Commonwealth rural unemployment scheme of $12,000, and the Shire of Kyneton received a similar grant for $12,950. Echuca city was providing 80 weeks of employment and Kyneton shire was providing 120 weeks of employment. In other works, at Kyneton an extra 40 weeks of employment is being provided for an extra $950. Are we going to encourage this tremendous range or narrow it? We have heard the Federal apprentices speak as though they are standing for preselection for some nice safe Labor seat, if there is any such thing.

Mr. EDMUNDs.-There is no such thing.

Mr. MACLELLAN.-I would not think there would be after listening to members of the OpPOSition.

Do members of the Opposition regard it as good that the Avon shire should need $6,000 to provide 48 weeks of employment and the Healesville shire was able to' provide exactly the same number of weeks employment for $3,000? That is a range of 100 per cent. We have had nothing from the Labor Party. Have its members no constructive criticism to offer on such a situation but just a few 'Old-time speeches in the Labor tradition mildly updated to the 1970s? Nothing was said about price control, but I presume if a prices justification tribUnal finds any price rise is not justified it: will


cancel or prohibit it, in which case we have to imagine we are back in the 1940s and talking about price control. The Leader of the Opposition will acknowledge that he has stated 'that Victoria needs price control. He may have said we need price control on basic articles. He did not acknowledge that nearly every agricultural product is subject to price control.

I suppose the Leader of the Opposition on his barge trip down the Murray did not get near enough to a farmer to find out that every farmer knows the price of eggs is fixed by a board. Farmers must know s'Omething about the price of wool, and we know that its price is fixed according to what overseas purchasers will pay for it. The price of butter and milk and of nearly every agricultural product is already subject to price control. What is not subject toc'Ontrol, and is the constant worry of every farmer, is that his essential costs are not controlled. They are not controlled because of excessive demands, either in the field of wages or in the field of prices for the essential products he has to buy. In spite of the groans from the country members of the Labor Party, the' logic of that is that it is true, and they never like to know what is true or anything that might contradict the ten tenets of Marx.

Mr. AMOS (Morwell).-I rise to a point of 'Order. I take grave exception to the remark made by the honorable member for Gippsland West that as a country member of the Opposition I dislike the truth. I ask the honorable member to withdraw the re"mark.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stokes).-I do not consider the remark by the . bonorable member for Gippsland West was .a personal reflection on any individual. It was a general remark.. It certainly was not c'Ouched in such a way that in my view any individual should be basic-ally upset. .'

Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the Opposition) .-1 raise a further point of order. With respect, the usage of the House is that if any honorable member takes exception to a remark that he regards as a reflection upon himself, the matter is g.iven full cognizance by the Chair. That seems to be the case here. The honorable member for Morwell has indicated that he takes exception to a remark. I should think the honorable member for Gippsland West did no.t intend to cast a reflection, and the matter can be simply res'Olved, having regard to the usages of the House, and the debate allowed to proceed. I have no doubt the honorable member for Gippsland West, if he feels he has offended-undoubtedly the honorable member for Morwell feels offendedwill withdraw the remark.

That is a simple way out of the situation. A remark by the honorable member for Gippsland West which referred to certain members of the Opposition indicated that they did not have a liking for the truth or any regard for it. That was the way in which the remark was taken by the honorable member for Morwell. As the honorable member has taken exception, it seems to me that the honorable member for Gippsland West should be given the opportunity of acting in accordance with the past usages of the House. That is the course I suggest should be followed.

Mr. MACLELLAN (Gippsland West) .-May I say that I am happy to withdraw the remark.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stokes).-Order! If the comment is withdrawn, there is no need for me t'O give a ruling. The time allotted for the honorable member for Gippsland West has expired. If no other honorable member rises, the honorable member may continue his speech for a further fifteen minutes.

Mr. MACLELLAN. - I express my thanks to the Committee, the Country Party and . the Opposition


for the courtesy extended to me. I regret that I cannot return the courtesy by refraining from my offensive remarks.

'The only other matter I wish to refer to is one of the more definite statements of the Leader of the Opposition. On page 4162 of Hansard the honorable member is reported as having stated-

lot is ,a fact that the only group in the community whose incomes ,and wages are fixed are members of the trade union movement.

The Leader of the Opposition will not object if I say that it is surprising to find him making this statement. It must be a surprise to many members of the community to discover that the honorable member believes - I must of course be careful about what people believe and what they do not believe, as they are so sensitive about it - that the trade union movement is the only section of the community which has its incomes and wages fixed. Most farmers, all pensioners, and nearly every Government servant, whether a member of a union or not even the judges that the Leader ~f the Opposition thought were overpaid, members of Parliament, even the soli7~tors that. the Leader of the OpposItIOn admItted were overpaid must be surprised to hear they are not inc!uded in the group of people whose Incomes and wages are fixed. Some of these people have the opportunity of working longer hours. The rate per hour may be fixed but the number of hours they work is not fixed. For instance, some farmers could work day and night and double their incomes, I presume, but they ·can be paid only a ce.r:tain sum for each pound of butterfat that is produced. I dare say these people feel that their wages and incomes are fixed in some ways.

I must not return to that sensitive matter about not liking things. The Leader of the Opposition probably does not like my mentioning this, but he certainly would not like to'

Mr. Maclellan.

feel that other sections of the community would look at the members of the trade union movement and say, "Your rate per hour may be fixed, but the overtime you work is not fixed" You may ,have a double job. That is not fixed, nor is your moonlighting." Presumably the Leader of the Opposition is m,oonlighting because he is the 'Leader of the Opposition, a solicitor, and I understand amember of a union as well-probably the Miscellaneous Workers Union or the Federated Clerks Union. He is obviously moonlighting on the side for the third time to maintain his union membership.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stokes).-Order! There is so much hilarity tha;t I cannot hear the honorable member for Gippsland West.

Mr. MACLELLAN.-The Leader of the Opposition knows as well as I that income is not fixed if a person can get overtime and work overtime, any more than a farmer's income is fixed by the price of butterfat, and he can work and ·milk as many cows as he is able. That is the sort of fixing we want to see, if at all. That is a simple proposition and trade union workers are no worse off for money than other sections of the community. Regarding working conditions, if the Leader of the Opposition would extract himself from the municipal council and the red claret barge tour and come and meet the farmers who milk the cows, he would learn very quickly that farmers do not get holiday payor workers compensation and do nof have the many benefits which are available to ·members of some of the stronger unions. When the ·Leader of the OppositiO'n talks about these things he should talk with accuracy and not make definite statements which apparently he ,is not willing :to withdraw when his statements are questioned.

Mr. LOVEGROVE (Sunshine).-I desire to make two observations. one in regard to' my own cO'nstituency and another in regard to the


general observations which have been permitted honorable members under the ruling previously given and taken advantage of by the honorable member for Gippsland West. Firstly, I refer to the Footscray High School, which is located in the Sunshine electorate. Every year I obtain, by the good grace of the Minister of Education, a statistical panorama of the State schools in my electorate which I circulate and ask the schools for their comments regarding teachers, pupils, capital works and other relevant matters. Recently there was a spate of press publicity concerning overcrowding at the Footscray High School, a school with approximately 970 pupils. On Wednesday, 1st March, I asked a question of the Minister of Education-

1. Whether there are subject shortages in history, English, woodwork, mathematics and special English, at the Footscray High School?

2. Whether there is a sholltage of teachers at the school; if so, how many?

3. Whether there is a ,severe accommodation shortage at the school?

4. What action, if any, is being taken to overcome shortages at the school? The Minister of Education replied-

1. The principal has asked that additional teachers be supplied as follows :-

Migrant English . . 1 teacher Geography . . ·5 ·teachers Mathematics 1·5 teachers Woodwork. . ·5 teachers

2. The Education Department considers that 45 teachers are needed at the school. In fact, there are 46·5 equivalent full-time teachers.

3. No. 4. Attention will be· given first to schools having fewer teachers than the Education Department's ,targetand then teachers, if available, will be appointed :to meet -requests

of schools. Following receipt of that answer,

I sought advice from the Footscray High School Advisory Council. Before I refer to the reply I received, I should like to inform the Committee of a letter dated 17th March, 1972, I received from Mrs. Joan Dickenson, of 4 Vernon Street, South Kingsville, a mother of three children attending

the Footscray High School, who requested that I record her protest. She wrote as follows:-

As the mother of ,three children a,ttending Footscray High School, I wish to ·record my protest at both the shortage of staff and rooms at that school.

I have one daughter doing higher school certificate this year, only to find that for sever.al periods per week, the library for these higher school certificate students is not available to :them because of classes being conducted therein.

In this case ·the students use a corridor in the science wing and take it in turns to use a table if their particul,ar assignment is to be handed in.

One son is doing fifth form-his ambition is to do accountancy-however he has already had his maths 2 course cut back to five periods per week with the possibility of further cuts.

A second daughter in third form is unable to do history-there is no teacher available and she has also had her English lessons cutback. In a school where the migrant population must be in the vicinity of 50 per cent this does create serious problems.

Please record my protest where ,three of my four children (the fourth has only just commenced .secondary education ,at another school) ,are deprived of what we, as citizens of Australia, ,and the State of Victoria, believed to be our right. I quote that letter because reference was made by the last speaker to the Victorian Secondary Teachers Association, which has made a number of statements relating to this school. I shall not quote anything tonight which has emanated from that association. The first statement I have quoted is. from a parent of children attending the school. The second statement .I wish to place before the Committee ,is an extract dated 20th March, 1972, from the Foot,scray High School Advisory Council. The advisory council stated-

I would point out that the Advisory Council is most concerned with regard to ,the following matters as they affect ,the school. (a) the deterioration in the staffing situation since the start of the school year. At

that stage the school had an effective time fraction 46·4 (including the Deputy Principal). At the present moment the effeotive time fraction is 45·4 and with the resign,ation of a teacher to take effect from 28th March, the number will be further reduced to 44·4.


(b) the accommodation position ,in the school is very tight and would be further aggravated if we would have ito provide accommodation for the teaching of English to the fifty migrants who have been in the country fora period of time less than ,two years and who are still experiencing language difficulties.

The advisory council then goes on to quote extensively in regard to the curricula at the school, the teaching load of each teacher, and an analysis of the manner in which some of the teaching load has been undertaken by means of a temporary organization which makes it possible for the school to work in a stilted and frustrated kind of' way. I quote the following extract:-

In using a· base figure of 27 periods per staff member per week due consideration has been given to extra-curricula duties at present being carried out by staff members as follows :-

teacher in charge of bookstall .teacher in charge of. collection of com

posite fees teacher in charge of sick bay

. . teacher in . charge of lockers teacher in charge of pound ,teacher in charge of seating

(assembly' hall) teacher in charge of A.S.E.P.

programme teacher in charge of visual aids teacher in charge of yard duty rosters teacher in charge of correspondence

tuition teacher in charge ot' school furniture

and maintenance . teacher in charge of bicycle shed.

There is a comprehensive list of the extra-curricula duties at present being undertaken by an inadequate staff of teachers at the Footscray High School. In considering the proposed staff establishment for the' school, the council states that t!:te following additional appointments are considered desirable:-

Library assistant. Remedral English. Migrant Engtish. Teacher aides for ·the humanities' ·and·

practioal departments. I qUote this' information because th~:r:-e i~. a direct conflict betwe.en the answer to a question given to me .by

Mr. Lovegrove.

the Minister on 1st March, 1972, and the assertions in this statement pre-pared by the advisory council of the Footscray High School, which I understand has also been placed in the possession of the Education Department. My question asked whether there was a severe accommodation shortage at the school, and the Minister replied, "No." According to the advisory council of the school, the accommodation difficulties are-Monday:

Tuesday:

(a) Matriculation library is used as a teaching room periods 4 'and 5.

(b) General library is used as a teaching room periods 3, 4 and 5.

(a) Matriculation library is used as a teach:ing room periods 3 and 4.

(b) General library is used 'as a teaching room periods 3 and 4.

(c) Assembly hall is used for teaching purposes periods 3 ·and 4.

(d) Laundry is used for teaching .purposes period 4.

Wednesday: (a) Matriculation libr:alo/ is used 'as a teaching room

. period 4.

Friday:

(b) General library is, u~ed as. .--' ., ,'8, teaching -room periods

3 and 4. (a) General libr:ary :is used 'as!

a teaching room period 6.

In addition there 'is no· room which can be set· ,aside ,solely . for the purposes of teaching migrant English. It was. possible .to give an assur:ance' to the Curriculum and Research Branch th'at such a room 'could be made 'available in' 1971.

There 'are many occasions during the j

week when the only rooms avaUable for remedial English are the general and matriculation libr:ary rooms.' .

The minimum requirement to meet the present difficulties :is one portable dassroom.

When the projected administrational accommodation alterations lare -carried out an ,additional -class-room, will also become available for gener:al use.

A further difficulty. is being experienced in connection with a class-room at present being used for an art room. There are two art rooms in existence at the ,school. However, since the total number of art· per.iods . being' taught· in . the' school 'is 108·

Votes on [22 MARCH, 1972.] Account. 4439·

it has become necessary to consider the use of a third room. At present 25 periods of p.,actical work from Forms I. to N. level are taught in this room aUhough no sink facilities have been provided.

A request has been submitted to the department for the provision of sinks and Mr. J. McDonald, Public Works Department inspector has reported to the Buildmgs Branch of the Education Department concerning the installation of the sinks. To date no action has been taken on Mr. McDonald's report.

After dealing with the shortages in the teaching staff and the numerous shortages in accommodation at this school, the advisory council set out the effect which this situation has had on the educational achievements of students at the school. The first comparison relates to Commonwealth secondary scholarship awards and is followed by a table setting out matriculation and higher school certificate examination results. The following table indicates the position:-

Commonwealth Secondary Scholarship Awards.

Year

1968 1969 1970 1971

Number of awards

6 3 o 1

Matriculation and Higher School Cerrti{icate Examination Results.

Year Number Number Percentage presented passed passed

1968 S6 24 43·0 1969 59 32 51·2 1970 51 29 57·0 1971 60 30 50·0

It was felt by the staff th'at students of the school at the Form V. level were unable to use private 'study time allotted to them profitably. It was therefore resolved that the time normally set aside for private study perJods should be taken up in the teaching situation by those teachers in charge of subjects ·at this particular level, r.ather than private study supervision in the school, supervised by 'available members of staff.

Finally, I shall quote the situation at the school in regard to migrant population-

Form Number of direct Number of migrants migrants two years in country

1 52 22 2 50 11 3 39 8 4 29 4 5 25 3 6 15 2

Total 210 50

Of 210 migrant pupils at the school, only 50 have been in the country for two years. Eight students have been in Victoria for periods ranging from a few days to two months, and they have little or no knowledge of English. The percentage of children direct from foreign-speaking coun-' tries in the school is slightly over 20 per cent.

I have quoted this report on the Footscray High School to sustain the contention made by the school advisory council, the head master and parents of children at the school, one of whom wrote the letter which I have quoted to the Committee. The conditions prevailing at the school are deplorable and, if allowed to continue, must prejudice any chance of students receiving a proper education. I ask the Minister to review the answer he supplied to my question about the Footscray High School and immediately endeavour to do something for the school.

In regard to the observation made by the honorable member for Gippsland West about the Opposition, and in particular the Leader and the Deputy Leader of the OPPOSition, there is not a great deal that I can say. If I understood the honorable member correctly, he said that both the Leader and the Deputy Leader of the Opposition expressed dissatisfaction with the amount granted for unemployment relief.

Jobs are being created by the State Government with the aid of funds contributed by the Commonwealth Government. The honorable member'. for Gippsland West said that: the·


Leader of the Opposition had sneered at the paucity of the work programme, and its inadequacy.

Mr. DUNSTAN .-1 could not go along, with that. Y.our Leader would never sneer.

Mr. LOVEGROVE.-! am glad that the Minister of Water Supply disagrees with what the honorable member for Gippsland West said. This gives me great heart. It seems endemic in the conduct of this Government that Ministers never reply themselves; they depute the making of replies to other members of the Government party.

'Mr. DUNSTAN .-It is a spread of talent.

Mr. LOVEGROVE.-The Minister says that the Government confers, this privilege on the back-benchers to spread the talent. The logical inference is that there is a paucity of talent on the front bench and that makes it necessary for honorable members from the country electorates held by the Liberal Party to make: replies on behalf of the Government.

The criticism of the honorable' member for Gippsland West was wrongly based. The exceptions taken by the Opposition to the speech made by the Premier and Treasurer are not residual merely in dissatisfaction with the amount of unemployment. relief provided in either country centres .or city areas. They are residual in the whole attitude and approach of the Government and the Treas\lrer to the gross dislocation of economic life which has occurred in recent months and the consequent widespread unemployment. I refer to part of the Treasurer's speech, which is reported at page 3850 of Hansard of the 1st March. The honorable gentleman said-

As honorable members will be generally aware from the .press reports, there was a frank and full discussion between the Premiers and .the Prime Minister and the Federal Treasurer on all aspects of the economy, and particul,arlyon the part which the States could play in ,assisting the Commonwealth in creating more jobs and increasing confidence in the economy.

Although the House was told that there were discussions between the Premiers and the Prime Minister on all aspects of economy, the only action to be 'taken by the State Government was the distribution in country areas of the not very large sums of money it received from the C.ommonwealth. The Government created a limited period of employment for a limited number of men. What the Opposition has said is that this is not enough. Does the Government suggest. that. the amount of money distributed to relieve unemployment is adequate?

Mr. DUNSTAN.-No, it does not. 'Mr. LOVEGROVE.-The MInister

of Water Supply agrees with the criticism of' the Leader of the Opposition· and the Deputy Leader of the Opposition that these sums are inadequate. _ In agreeing with that criticism, the honorable gentleman disagrees with what the honorable member for Gippsland West said.

The next exception residual in the statements of both the Leader of the Opposition and the Deputy Leader of the Opposition is that the second role to be played by the State Government was to increase confidence in the economy.

Mr. RAFFERTY.-Are you against that?

'Mr. LOVEGROVE.-I certainly am n'Ot against that, but I point out, as other honorable members have pointed out much more eloquently, that the economic troubles in Australia today are not basically due to a lack of confidence in the economy. They cannot be remedied by the application of what I presume is some kind of pyschological technique with a view to getting all these men back to' work. The criticism of the Opposition is that the approach of the State Government to the problem is one of saying that, although an aspects of the economy were examined, it is only concerned with employing, for a limited number of weeks, as many men as it can, consistent with the amount of money it received from


the Commonwealth Government. At the conclusion of his speech, as reported at page 3855 of Hansard, the Treasurer stated-

The Supply Bill now before the Committee deals with the next financial year, and the working out of the measures which have now been introduced will have an important bearing on the background against which the 1972-73 Budget will have to be framed.

In Victoria, we will be making the maximum effort within the limits of our present resources to support these measures.

The only real danger to success will come from increased costs to the Budget flowing from the handing down of further new wage and salary awards which must necessarily result in the diversion of funds from the works programme. Any such diversion must affect the plans now in hand for the creation of new job opportunities.

Although that speech was made only on 1st March, as the Government knows, one of the Public Service tribunals has already, of necessity, conferred a 9 per cent salary increase on a large number of governmental employees in utilities and departments throughout Australia. I am not certain that the increase in salary was 9 per cent, but it was of that order.

Mr. RAFFERTY.-That increase was granted earlier, was it not?

Mr. LOVEGROVE.-The increase has been applied since the Treasurer's speech. I am speaking of a decision handed down since 1st March. The march of events has already made it obvious that the distribution of this money for employment relief will be minimal and brief. In fact, according to the words of the Treasurer, its effects will be quickly truncated. The honorable gentleman said that any diversion of money by salary or wage increases would prevent the Government from achieving the creation of new job opportunities. I point to this without any satisfaction. No member of Parliament can be satisfied to see a situation developing in which the Commonwealth Government or any State Government cannot do anything about the economy. The whole attitude of the Victorian Government

Session 1972.-157

and the Commonwealth Government can be typified by an issue which was discussed when the Budget was presented last year. During the Budget debate I predicted that thousands of men in the car industry would be unemployed before long. The honorable member for Geelong differed from me.

Mr. BIRRELL.-Total employment is still up.

Mr. LOVEGROVE.-To anybody who knows about structural employment and unemployment, a year ago, when certain industries producing durable consumer goods in Australia distorted the economic life of the country, unemployment was inevitable. Thousands of people were put out of the car industry. That industry is over-capitalized and it has shamelessly used the capital grants of every State Government in Australia for the purpose of creating monstrous excursions across the capital cities. The neglect by Governments to control the motor car industry has precipitated the loss of employment of thousands of people just prior to Christmas and since. The thinking that will bring security to the workforce in this country is that which looks at what is taking place in the economic life of the country and what is necessary to correct the glaringly apparent imbalances and distortions appearing in certain sectors of the economy. Until this approach is adopted, the Supply considerations outlined by the Treasurer will not be of any permanent value in the relief of unemployment.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stokes).-Order! The honorable member's time has expired. If no other honorable member rises in his. place, the honorable member for Sunshine may continue his speech for a further fifteen minutes.

Mr. LOVEGROVE. - I thank the Committee for its indulgence. What has happened cannot give the Government much cause for political satisfaction. It is important to remember that many of these

4442 Votes on [ASSEMBLY. ] Account.

events happened before the widespread incidence of unemployment to which the Leader. of the Opposition and the Deputy Leader of the Opposition referred. There was argument between the business leaders in Australia and the Federal Liberal Government in which some business leaders demanded certain exactions from the Government in regard to taxation measures, monetary policies and control of foreign investment. Another section of the business world apparently decided that if they could not beat them, they would join them. The result was that Australian capital and know-how was taken out of the country to produce goods in cheap labour countries, which would further create unemployment for the workers in Australia.

It is of some interest to' recall that, a year ago, when these demands were being made on the Commonwealth Liberal Government by certain business leaders and sections of business in Australia, the Government refused to accede. The vicious, unprincipled, dirty, unscrupulous and venomous campaign conducted against the then Prime Minister of Australia, the Leader of the Liberal Party, by business leaders and a section of the mass news media in this country was without precedent since the last war, as everybody with political experience knows. This campaign, this descent to the sewers of journalism in Australia by the Liberal Party, split that party.

Mr. RAFFERTy.-Should this come under Supply?

Mr. LOVEGROVE.-Of course it does. The ruling from the Chair allows me to discuss it.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stokes).-Order! Could the honorable member advise me how his remarks relate to the Supply debate?

Mr. LOVEGROVE.-Two economic theories have been tried by the Federal Liberal Government. Firstly, there was the theory of resistance to certain economic concessions desired by some big business interests

throughout Australia. These concessions were resisted. However, the Government feared that if resistance continued and if these economic concessions were not granted, all kinds of things would befall the economy, particularly the subject under discussion in this Supply debate on mass unemployment and widespread destitution amongst a certain stratum of the population. So eventually one Prime Minister was dismissed as a result of the campaign I have described and another Prime Minister was appointed.

Mr. RAFFERTY.-Who caused this? Mr. LOVEGROVE.-Those sec

tions of business in Australia which used the mass news media in the way I have described. It was a disgrace to the mass media; it was gutter journalism and sewer journalism of the description which was previously used against Labor leaders without dissent from Liberal Party leaders, and it has now been used by Liberal Party leaders to bring about a change in the economy. Everyone knows that the change was brought about because economic concessions were granted, albeit grudgingly, by the new Prime Minister. Through a welter of threats, a widespread intimidation and a campaign by the mass media in Australia, eventually business leaders extracted what they wanted from their representatives in the Commonwealth Government. Despite their extracting these economic concessions, not only has there been no radical reduction of unemployment in the main capital cities, but there will not be in future, because the people who dismissed Mr. Gorton, and who are assiduously endeavouring to dismiss Mr. McMahon, are doing it on the assumption that they want a Government which will not interfere basically with the fabric of the capitalist system.

Mr. RAFFERTY.-You have no hope with the Labor Party.

Mr. LOVEGROVE.-The Minister of Labour and Industry has put his finger precisely on the pulse of the


speech of the Treasurer. People are alre'ady tinkering with the idea that what could not be achieved through one Liberal Prime Minister, and since his successor has obviously failed, can be achieved through a Labor Government. I remind the honorable gentleman that there are in the Labor movement today people who will ensure that the Labor Party will not be again used for the purpose that it was used many years ago during a similar period of widespread unemployment.

The basic feature of the Treasurer's theory in regard to the present economic dislocation is that it is the result of cost inflation and that the infla tionary troubles of the modem economic system, 'which are not confined to Australia, are due wholly to that factor. In fact, of course, that is not so; the cause is something more fundamental in the economic system.

The honorable member for Reservoir was correct in his statement that wages and salaries will increase. Business leaders who will condemn and indict politicians of all parties and incite them to appear before courts and commissions to resist wage increases will, behind the backs of the parties, readily grant wage increases if they think it will pay them to do so. Of course. the people who will do it first will be the mass media, which pay the highest wages of all and do not worry about going to the Arbitration Commission. One of the ironies of the political situation in Australia is that journalists, who have ·modest skills compared with other professional people in the community, if they are so instructed, still use their best talents to oppose anybody else getting a wage increase. This kind of propaganda, which has been going on now for quite a time, has not deluded anybody. It may be that there will be a change of heart over the next few months on the part of the people responsible for trying to run the Liberal Party from outside, but whether there is or not, one

thing is certain, that in view of the changes which have taken place throughout the world-the impact of what has happened in America and what she has done with her exchange, the impact of what has happened in England and what she is doin!? with her economy, the "EuropeanIzation " of the English e~onomy, if I may use that expresSIOn, and the emergence in Asia of colossal industrial concentrations unprecedented even in some sectors of the economy of the United States of America-to pretend that the economic system in Australia can escape the consequences of this environment is, of course wishful thinking. '

My final observation is that when the Leader and the Deputy Leader of the Opposition criticize the Treasurer's state,ment on Supply, in terms of the economy or unemployment or whatever other policy the Government has adopted, they do so with no lack of sympathy for such efforts as can be successfully made to create employment, however small, and wherever it ;may be created. But they do so also with the consciousness that tinkering with the economic system, evasions of political responsibility, and indifference to the fundamental changes taking place in the economic life of the nation, condemn those guilty of them to political oblivion.

Progress was reported.

ADJOURNMENT. FILMS ACT: HOME MOVIE MAKERS -

MELBOURNE AND METROPOLITAN TRAMWAYS BOARD: TRAM STOPPAGE - UNEMPLOYMENT: RELIEF IN WANNON SHIRE.

Mr. HAMER (Chief Secretary).I move-

That the House, at its rising, adjourn until Tuesday next, at Two o'clock.

The motion was agreed to. Mr. HAMER (Chief Secretary).

I move-That the House do now adjourn.

Adjournment. [ASSEMBLY.] Adjournment.

Mr. AMOS (MorwelI}.-I wish to raise with the Chief Secretary a question relating to the Films Act 1971 which has created a great deal of public confusion throughout Victoria since its proclamation. A number of police stations have been inundated with inquiries from the general public or from persons engaged in making home movies as to whether or not they have to register under the provisions of the Act. This public confusion is causing the police a lot of unnecessary work and may have been aggravated by an article which appeared in the Age of 3rd March, 1972. An article on page 2, written by Roger Aldridge, states-

Home movie makers in Victoria could be committing a criminal offence by making or exhibiting their fllms-even in their own homes.

The article points out why that gentleman considers that would be an offence.

Section 3 of the Films Act 1971 contains the following definition:-

" Theatre" means any house room building garden or place where any film is exhibited to which admission is or may be procured by payment of money or by ticket or by any other means token or consideration.

As a result of the public confusion to which I have referred, an organization known as the Camera Clubs of Victoria issued a circular in which the secretary, Mr. Tom Reynolds, pointed out to club members the dilemma which persons in Victoria, particularly those interested in home ·movie making, now face. The circular, rightly or wrongly, states that home movie makers must register. My inquiries indicate that police officers in Victoria are unaware or are not quite sure of the position. I ask the Chief Secretary to make a public statement now to clarify the position.

Mr. TREZISE (Geelong North).I desire to make an urgent request to the Minister of Transport to consider taking last-minute action to avert the 24-hour tram stoppage

which will otherwise occur in Melbourne on Friday. The Minister has a responsibility, and, tomorrow being the last day before Friday, I hope he will take the initiative and at least be prepared to speak to the parties round a table to see whether a satisfactory solution or compromise can be found. The public of Melbourne and employees of the Melbourne and Metropolitan Tramways Board will be affected if the stoppage occurs on Friday. The employees have indicated to me that they are willing to discuss the position with the Minister tomorrow, with no guarantees from either side as to the outcome. Yesterday, the Minister stated in the House that he was prepared to talk to any party to the dispute if he thought some good could be done. Surely in the interests of the public, the Tramways Board and the employees, the Minister will at the last moment take the initiative!

The Minister cannot guarantee to the House, the public or the people concerned that if he were to talk to them tomorrow a satisfactory solution could not be found. The honorable gentleman cannot guarantee that there would not be a compromise, because possibly there could be a compromise between the parties. I ask the Minister at this late hour at least to take the initiative and give responsible leadership. If the stoppage continues on Friday, it will not be true that it has occurred solely because of the fault of the board or the fault of the union. To a large extent it will be because the Minister has refused to talk to the parties concerned. Therefore, I ask the Minister to take the initiative and talk to the parties tomorrow to see if a solution can be found to the problem.

Mr. W. J. LEWIS (Portland).-I wish to bring before the House a matter of extreme urgency concerning the rural unemployment scheme.

Adjournment. [22 MARCH, 1972.] Adjournment. 4445

The Wannon shire submitted an application for an amount of $68,000 for public works. Up until 16th March, the shire has received only $3,860 in payment for this work. Forty men are currently registered at the unemployment centre at Hamilton. Under the present situation the men are employed two at a time and then stood down. The Wannon shire has requested -me to ask the Government immediately to allocate a further $20,000 for public works so that instead of having the stop-go policy of putting these men on and off, they can be given permanent employment for a period which will enable them at least to remain in the area. Under the existing situation in which only one or two weeks' work can be provided, men are drifting to the metropolis. Every effort should be made to prevent this from continuing.

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Transport) .-The honorable member for Geelong North raised a matter which has already been brought up during questions without notice today. I then gave a full answer to a question which I think covered the same matter raised. If anything could be achieved by meeting the parties involved in the dispute I would do so, but I am satisfied that the parties have met and that the offer of the Tramways Board is reasonable. The board has gone far more than half way to meet the claims. I support the stand it has taken in the matter. I think the board has been very reasonable and I can only repeat what I said earlier, namely, that if the stoppage occurs the responsibility will rest fairly and squarely on the heads of the union.

Mr. HAMER (Chief Secretary).The honorable member for Morwell raised a matter concerning the Films Act 1971. I believe the article to which the honor-able member referred is unfortunate because it implies

Session 1972.-158

that there has been a change in the law, whereas in his capacity as a member of Parliament the honorable member would know that this is simply not so. What was done in the Films Act 1971 was to take over the provisions which had been in force for the past twenty or 30 years. The position has not changed. It is a misfortune that the impression has been wrongly created that somehow the position has changed and that the amateur film makers and home film makers are in a different position from that which they previously occupied. However, as this has occurred, I give an undertaking to take the necessary steps to clarify the position.

The honorable member for Portland raised the question of the allocation to the Shire Q1f Wannon of unemployment relief. I point out to the honorable member that the types of jobs for which these allooations are made depend largely on the municipalities concerned. If a municipality wishes to suggest jobs which will occupy more than a week or two and perhaps up to five or six weeks, it is in its power to do so. However, as the -matter has been raised, I will certainly take it up with the Treasurer.

If the Wannon Shire Council believes that men in the district who are out of work are likely to remain unemployed for some time, it should propose works which will occupy these men for longer than two or three weeks and by this means remove the intermittent employment. If the men are put off work after a week or two, it is because the job on which they were employed has been completed. If the shire wants to engage men for a longer period as it apparently does, it should provide suitable works for that purpose.


The House adjourned at 10.40 p.m., until Tuesday, March 28.

4446 Questions [CQUNCIL.] on Notice.

11lt gislntittt <ttnuuril. Tuesday, March 28, 1972.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett) took the chair at 4.57 p.m., and read the prayer.

HOUSING COMMISSION. EVICTIONS: WAITING LISTS.

The Hon. H. A. THOMAS (Melbourne West Province) asked the Minister of Public W orks-

(a) What step is the Housing Commission taking to ensure that no families in Melbourne West Province are evicted as a result of financial difficulties, especially as a result of the recent mass-unemployment situation?

(b ) What steps will the commission take to provide emergency accommodation where families are evicted from private accommodation which does not meet with the requirements of the Health Act 1958 or the Housing Act 1958?

(c) How many families from Melbourne West Province are currently on the waiting list for commission accommodation?

The Hon. MURRA Y BYRNE (Minister of Public Works) .-The answers are-

(a) The Houslng Commission anticipates that no special steps need to be taken in v!ew of its rental rebate scheme which provIdes for rentals to be subsidized in genuine cases of financial hardship.

Any requests for special consideration lodged by terms purchasers will be considered individually on the merits of each case.

(b) Families evicted from private accommodation are eligible to apply for accommodatton and each case is considered individually.

(c) This information is not available as statistics of this nature in relation to electoral districts are not kept.

ApPLICATIONS: WAITING TIMES: RENTAL UNITS: HOMES BUILT.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH (Doutta Galla Province) asked the Minister of Public Works-

(a) How many applications from couples with five or more children are current with ,the Housing Commission?

(b) What is the average waiting time for applicants to be accommodated in singleunit homes and flats, respectively, and is special consideration still given to such applicants?

(c) How many housing units are available to such families on a rental basis, and where are they located?

(d) How many housing units, and of what type, were built for this class of applicant in each of the financial years 1968-69 to date?


(a) 505. (b) (i) Tenancy.-It is the policy of the

commission to accommodate on a rental basis couples with five or more children in houses rather than flats. The walting time is approximately twenty months. Tenancy of a two-bedroom flat approximately nine months delay; three-bedroom flat approximately eighteen months.

(ii) Purchase.-A 50 per cent priority in waiting time is available to purchase applicants with five or more children resulting in a wait of approximately twenty months.

(c) Vacancies in the form of three-bedroom or larger type houses are re-l'et to large families and such vacancies occur principally at Broadmeadows, Heidelberg, Preston, Reservoir and Maidstone.

A total of 249 vacancies were re-Iet to large families during the period 1st July, 1970-30th June, 1971.

(a) During the year ended: 30th June, 1969-232 30th June, 1970-376 30th June, 1971-671 31st December, 1971-432

homes were constructed in the metropolitan area and such properties were made available for sale. Large family applicants for tenancy are allocated previously occupied homes in more established estates.

ARREARS OF RENT. The Hon. R. J. EDDY (Doutta

Galla Province) asked the Minister of Public Works-

How many tenants of the Housing Commission, who reside in the Doutta Galla Province, are in arrears in their rent as a result of unemployment?


Not known. Unless 'information is provided by the tenant the commission is not aware of the reason for any particular tenant being in arrears.


COUNTRY ROADS BOARD. CANNING STREET BRIDGE.

The Hon. A. W. KNIGHT (Melbourne West Province) asked the Minister for Local Government-

(a) What was the total cost of the construction of the Canning Street bridge and its road approaches, at Avondale Heights?

(b) How will costs be apportioned? The Hon. A. J. HUNT (Minister for

Local Government) .-The answers are-

(a) There are still some small outstanding accounts to be paid and minor works to be carried out. The final costs are estimated to be--

Bridge Approaches Temporary Bailey bridge

$ 262,000 360,000 44,000

666,000

(b) The expenditure of $44,000 on the temporary Bailey bridge is being financed wholly by the Country Roads Board. The balance of $622,000 will be apportioned on the basis of-

Country Roads Board City of Keilor City of Sunshine

EDUCATION.

$ 460,000

81,000 81,000

COMMONWEALTH SCHOLARSHIPS: UNIVERSITY INTAKE.

The Hon. H. A. THOMAS (Melbourne West Province) asked the Minister of Public W orks-

(a) How many junior Commonwealth scholarships were obtained in each secondary school in the Melbourne West Province, and how does this compare as a percentage of the scholarships obtained at MacRobertson girls, university, and Melbourne high schools? (b) How many Commonwealth scholar

ships were awarded in each secondary school in the Melbourne Wes:t Province this year, and how many were awarded in the past three years and the preceding three years, res pectively?

(c) How many students from such schools in the Melbourne West Province obtained entrance to a university in 1972, and how does the percentage of the matriculanlts gaining entrance from the province compare with that from MacRobertson g.irls, university, and Melbourne high schools?


(QI) and (b) The allocation of Commonwealth scholarships is a matter for the Commonwealth. The Education Department has written to the Department of Education and Science requesting the required information. The honorable member will be advised by letter as soon as possible.

(c) Such information is not readily available. The honorable member is requested to contact the secretary of the Victorian Universities Admissions Committee (Mr. N. Milne: telephone 265228) to discuss the question with him.

VICTORIAN RAILWAYS. VIADUCT IN FRANCIS STREET,

YARRA VILLE.

The Hon. A. W. KNIGHT (Melbourne West Province) asked the Minister for Local Government-

(a) What are the estimated costs of the widening of the railway viaduct in Francis Street, Yarraville?

(b) When is it expected that the work will be completed?

The Hon. A. J. HUNT (Minister for Local Government) .-The answers are-

(QI) The estim~ted ~ost of widening t~is rail over road bridge IS $400,000 excludmg road works.

(b) September, 1972.

ADVERTISING BRANCH.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH (Doutta Galla Province) asked the Minister for Local Government-

Has any policy decision been made as to whether the Advertising Branch of the Victorian Railway Department will continue to be operated by the commissioners or let by contract; if so, what are the details of such decision?

The Hon. A. J. HUNT (Minister for Local Government) -I am informed tha t the answer is, '" No".

MELBOURNE-MILDURA SERVICE.

The Hon. A. R. MANSELL (NorthWestern Province) asked the Minister for Local Government-

(a) When will the Overland sleeping cars commence running on the Mildura-Spencer Street train?

4448 Questions [COUNCn...] on Notice.

(b) Has any decision been made to name these cars and, in the event ,that no decision has been made, will the Minister of Transport or the commissioners consider further prominent men, such as Chaffey, Clapp, De Garis, and Johansen?

(c) In view of distance and climate, will showers be provided on at least Itwo cars?

The Hon. A. J. HUNT (Minister for Local Government) .-The answers are-

(01) In August, 1972. (b) The Railways Commissioners propose

to name the train as a whole and are at present considering names suggested to them by readers of the V.R. News Letter.

( c) The sleeping cars to be placed on the Melbourne--Mildura trains are equipped with shower faciHties.

SOCIAL WELFARE DEPARTMENT. WARDS OF STATE: REGIONAL OFFICE

IN MELBOURNE WEST PROVINCE.

The Hon. H. A. THOMAS (Melbourne West Province) asked the Minister for Local Government-

(a) How many children from Melbourne West Province ·are 'currently in care as w.ards of the State, ,and how many children from how many families were sent to Allarnbie Reception Centre in each of :the past three years?

(b) What step is the Social Welfare Department taking Ito prevent children from Melbourne West Province being placed under the care of ;the department?

(c) What ·action is the Government taking towards expanding the Foo,tscray welfare office to a regional office for Melbourne West Province?

The Hon. A. J. HUNT (Minister for Local Government).-The answers are-

(a) Statistics are not kept in the form sought.

(a)

(b) The department's preventive services comprise--

(i) the provision of financial 'assistance in respect of children without sufficient means of support, .to avoid their having to leave their own homes;

(ii) subsidy payments ,and grants to voluntary organizations providing communi,ty welfare services; ·and

(iii) counselling services providing advice and assistance 'in the treatment of ~arnily problems.

(c) Careful consideration has been given to the extens:ion of existing district offices, and the establishment of new offices, in order to implement the Government's policy of regionalization of welfare services. Final decisions as to the priorities of these developments have not been made, pending further research, and the ,availability of resources.

FISHERI,ES AND WILDLIFE BRANCH.

REVENUE AND EXPENDITURE.

The Hon. R. W. MAY (Gippsland Province) asked the Minister of Public Works-

(a) What was the to,tal amount of revenue received by the Fisheries and WHdlife Branch during each of the past four years, and what was the respective source or 'sources of such revenue?

(b) What amount of money has been spent each year over this period on-(i) head office ·administration; (ii) field officers; and (iii) each other division including fisheries inland and other divisions, fauna and wildlife, together with reserves giving amounts 'and location?

The Hon. A. J. HUNT (Minister for Local Government).-As the answers are statistical, I seek leave of the House to have them incorporated in Hansard without my reading them.

Leave was granted, and the answers were as follows:-

- 1967-68 1968-69 1969-70 1970-71 1971-72 to 22 March

$ $ s s S

Taxation .. 194,013.37 252,118.69 254,862.78 286,538.63 256,364.99 Fees and cha~ges for d~partmeilial servic~s .. 23,194.25 12,196.60 8,773.96 13,293.83 12,095.20 Miscellaneous receipts . . . . .. 10,117.05 25.420.89 64,726.05 54,031.57 2,545.50 Credit to Fisheries Research Fund ., .. Nil 56,193.00 84,399.00 85,438.00 72,542.00 Treasury trust ., .. ., .. Nil 88.60 40.50 404.07 Nil

Totals . , .. .. .. 227,324.67 346,017.78 412,802.29 439,706.10 343,546.69

(b) I regret that the records of the bra ncb do not enable this information to be extracted in the form requested.


However, the following details of expenditure may be of assistance to the honorable member:-

________ =-~ ________ I-l-9-67--6-8--I--l-96-8--6-9-.I--19-6_9_-7_0_1--19-7-()":-7-1_I_lk-7-1M-7a-~-c~_o I

$ $ $ $ $ A. Vote Expenditure-

1. Salaries and payments in the nature of salary 2. General Expenses . . . . . .

493,206 153,227

500,417 176,398

613,766 223,812

712,733 226,027

561,980 163,698

3. Other Services-(i) Game Development account . . . .

(ii) Ballarat Fish Acclimatization Society grant (iii) Commercial Fisheries Council-fees and

63,720 2,400

75,000 2,400

75,332 2,400

68,143 2,400

68,724 2,400

travelling expenses .. . , . , (iv) Victorian Field and Game Association

grant " " " " (v) Victorian Piscatorial Council-grant , ,

(vi) Port Phillip Bay environmental study "

844

1,200 2,630 3,000

856

1,200 2,630

51,740

729

1,200 2,630

100,412

1,292

1,200 2,780

120,488

473

1,200 2,780

109,058

Total 720,227 810,641 1.020,281 1.135,063 910,313

B. Loan Expenditure-(i) Purchase of heavy vehicles and boats , ,

(ii) Purchase of research equipment , , 4,983 4,661

14,081 2,397

46,800 5,243

11,371 12,778

27,581 6,456

39,600 3,220 6,570

10,938 2,511

8,184 6,683

22,774 8,992

18,116 7,886

3,349 1.680

(iii) Purchase of research vessels , , , , (iv) Wildlife reserves miscellaneous works ., (v) Tower Hill-miscellaneous works ,.

,',394 9,377

4',365 6,829 1,493 (vi) Serendip-miscellaneous works , , 14,338

(vii) Other " ,. " "

Total

C, Fisheries Research Fund

40,753 92,670

13,715

96,876

49,131

72,635

56,355

17,716

32,124

Totals A, Band C 760,980 917,026 1,166,288 1,264,053 960,153

LEVEL CROSSINGS FUND. FINANCE.

For the Hon. S. R. McDONALD (Northern Province), the Hon. I. A. Swinburne asked the Minister for Local Government-

What finance has been contributed, in each of the past five years, by the Level Crossings Fund, the Railway Department, and the Country Roads Board, towards the cost of fitting warning devices at railway level crossings?

The Hon. A. J. HUNT (Minister for Local Government) .-As the answer is statistical, I seek leave of the House for it to be incorporated in Hansard without my reading it.

Leave was granted, and the answer was as follows:-

The following amoun:ts have been contributed towards the installation of boom barriers and flashing lights at level crossings:-

Year

1966-67 1967-68 1968-69 1969-70 1970-71

Level Crossings

Fund

$

144,341 305,874 441,863 499,596 315,130

Victorian Country Railways Roads

Board

$ $

209,550 22,359 22,289

43',i80 158,254 39,665 64,720

In addition, the following amounts were expended from the Level Crossings Fund for additional safety measures such as additional crossing signs, reflectorization of signs, clearing of scrub, etc., and acquisition of land to improve visibility at crossings and upgrading of existing equipment to meet present-day safety requirements:-

1966-67 1967-68 1968-69 1969-70 1970-71

$ 3,296

21,881 41,480 40,559

109,104

STATE ELECTRICITY COMMISSION.

FERRIS CREEK PUMP STORAGE SCHEME AT TRAWOOL.

The Hon. F. J. GRANTER (Bendigo Province) asked the Minister for Local Government-

Has any definite decision been made regarding the Ferris Creek pump storage scheme at Trawool; if not, when can one be expected?


No. Ferris Creek is one of a number of alternative sites which are being investigated as possible locations for pumped storage hydro-electric schemes.

It must be realized that the commission's generating system involves the integration of various types of base load and peak load

Questions [COUNCIL.] on Notice.

power station~ and as a result a wide range of alternatives must be studied before definIte decisions can be made. It is therefore difficult to make forward predictions with any degree of certainty but present indications are that it probably will be several years before it will be necessary to consider the Ferris Creek scheme.

EDUCATION DEPARTMENT.

SHEPPARTON GIRLS HIGH SCHOOL.

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE (Northern Province) asked the Minister of Public Works-

Will he lay on the table of the Library the files relating to the condition of the buildings at the Shepparton Girls High School?

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE (Minister of Public Works) .-The answer is, " Yes",

WILLIAMSTOWN GIRLS HIGH SCHOOL.

The Hon. A. W. KNIGHT (Melbourne West Province) asked the Minister of Public Works -

(a) When is it proposed ito have a .m.athematics teacher appomted to the WIllIamstown Girls High School?

(b) Is the Education Department aware of the lack of mathema,tics teachers at the school over recent years?

(c) What are .the reasons for not having mathematics teachers appointed to the school?

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE (Minister of Public Works) ,-The answers are-

(a) As soon as a qualified teacher can be located.

(b) There has been a shortage of mathematics teachers in many schools in recent years. Emphasis has been placed on mathematics teachers in the overseas recruitment programme.

(c), The request from the school on. the initial requests for 1972 was for 22 perIods of mathematics and science.

The available teachers ex college were placed in schools according to the degree of urgency as reflected by requests. As Williamstown Girls High School requested and apparently only required less than a full-time teacher, the available teachers were spread throughout the State in an effort to ensure that no school was left r~quiring more than one teacher of mathematics and science.

PATCHEWOLLOCK PRIMARY SCHOOL.

The Hon. B. P. DUNN (NorthWestern Province) asked the Minister of Public Works-

In view of the very poor condition of toilets at the Patchewollock Primary School, and the fact that they are inadequate to serve rthe school population, when will tenders be called for the construction of a new toilet block at the school, and when will construction commence?


The Public Works Department expects that tenders for the new toilet block will be invited early in the 1972-73 financial year. In the event of a satisfactory tender being received it is anticipated that work will be put in hand without delay.

GLENROY HIGH SCHOOL.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH (Doutta Galla Province) asked the Minister of Public Works-

What is the current time schedule for the erection of the assembly hall at the Glenroy High School?


It is anticipated that tenders will be invited by the Public Works Department towards the end of this year.

STAGGERED WORKING HOURS. RAILWAY SERVICES.

The Hon. A. R. MANSELL (NorthWestern Province) asked the Minister for Local Government-

(a) Has the staggering of hours for public servants adversely affected commuters from centres such as Ballarat, Bacchus Marsh, Geelong, or Seymour?

(b) Will the arrival and/or departure of interstate and/or country trains be affected?

(c) What alterations to existing services will be made as a result of this progressive move to stagger working hours?

The Hon. A. J. HUNT (Minister for Local Government) .--The answers are-

(a) No. (b) No. (c) The matter is being watched and ad-'

justments to metropolitan services will be made if warranted.

Road Traffic [28 MARCH, 1972.] (Amendment) Bill. 4451

DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH. SCHOOL CANTEENS AND TUCK SHOPS.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH (Doutta Galla Province) asked the Minister for Local Government-

In respect of the report in the BTiOadmeadows Observer of 15th March that II All school canteens and tuck shops will now have to comply with the Food Premises and Food Cleanliness Regulations under the Health Act 1958 "-(i) when was this decision made; (ii) who will be respons:ible to pay the registration fee of $10 involved; and (iii) who will bear the cost of structural alterations required by municipal council health officers?


('i) The decision was made in May, 1971. (ii)and (iii) These matters are still

under consider.ation.

TOWN AND COUNTRY PLANNING (AMENDMEN1) BILL.

The Hon. A. J. HUNT (Minister for Local Government), by leave, moved for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Town and Country Planning Act 1961 and for other purposes.


a first time.

ROAD TRAFFIC (AMENDMENT) BILL.

The Hon. MURRAY BYRN,E (Minister of Public Works) .-1 move-


Its purpose is to make the offence of failing to wear a properly adjusted and fastened safety belt the subject of a traffic infringement notice with a fixed penalty of $10. As honorable members know, the prescription of an offence which may be dealt with by the issue of a traffic infringement notice by members of the Police Force does not deprive the alleged offender of his right to elect to have the matter decided by a court. Experience has shown that an average of 91·5 per cent of offenders prefer

to have the matter expiated by paying the penalty fixed by the Act and indicated in the notice. The remaining offenders are dealt with by summons.

It is generally acknowledged that the wearing of a safety belt is one of the most valuable safety measures available to a motorist and his passengers. A comparison of the casualties among drivers and lefthand front passengers for a period of nine months ended 30th September, 1971, compared with a similar period in 1970 showed that casualties have been reduced from 12,025 to 10,061. The increasing number of cars on the roads should be taken into consideration. This indicates a significant reduction of 16·33 per cent in casualties which is probably attributable to the compulsory fitment of seat belts in certain types of vehicles and the compulsory wearing of those seat belts in all motor cars where they are fitted.

I am advised by the Chairman of the Road Safety and Traffic Authority that a substanti'al number of people in the community fail to protect themselves by the simple act of wearing the seat belt which has been provided. Despite the various publicity campaigns and the activities of the police, I am informed by the Road Safety and Traffic Authority that the incidence of use by drivers of safety belts in motor cars to which they are fitted is 75 per cent in the metropolitan area and an alarming 64 per cent in the country. Figures for the left-hand passenger are approximately 8 per cent lower in each case.

Since December, 1970, it has been compulsory for seat belts where fitted to be worn and to January this year the Chief Commissioner of Police had initiated 2,362 prosecutions for failure to wear belts. In addition, during the first two months following the introduction of the measure 466 warnings, including

4452 Vermin and Noxious [COUNCIL.] Weeds (Allowances) Bill.

invitations to motorists' education services were issued. In future, there will be more stringent enforcement of the law relating to the wearing of safety belts and to facilitate the work of the police this Bill will make the penalty for failure to wear a properly adjusted and fastened safety belt the subject of an on-the-spot ticket.

The Government is heartened at the effect which the compulsory seat belt legislation has had on the road toll but it wants to extend the advantage by ensuring as far as possible that negligent, apathetic or stubborn motorists and passengers will 'comply with the law and use belts where they are fitted. There is every reason to believe that a further substantial reduction can be achieved in fatal and other road accidents if people will comply with the law relating to the fitment and wearing of safety belts. 1 commend the Bill to the House.

On the motion of the Hon. J. M. WALTON (Melbourne North Province) , the debate was adjourned.

It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until Tuesday, April 4.


The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture) .-1 move-That this Bill be now read a second time.

It is a simple measure to enable allowances and travelling expenses to be paid to the appointed members of the Central Advisory Council. The council, which is constituted under section 5A of the Vermin and Noxious Weeds Act 1958, consists of the Minister of Lands, the members of the Vermin and Noxious Weeds Destruction Board, and six appointed members who are the representatives of the farming organizations of the State. These appointed members incur out-of-pocket expenses in attending meetings of the council and it is reasonable that they should receive an adequate amount to cover those expenses.

The Vermin and Noxious Weeds Destruction Board has recommended that the appointed members be paid a mileage rate for use of their motor cars plus a daily allowance for each sitting of the council. Clause 1 cites the short title and names the ·Vermin and Noxious Weeds Act 1958 as the principal Act. Clause 2 inserts a new sub-section (2A) in section 5B of the principal Act entitling the members of the Central Advisory Council appointed by the Minister to receive such allowances and travelling expenses as are determined by the Governor in Council.

I commend the Bill to the House.

On the motion of the Hon. D. E. KENT (Gippsland Province), the debate was adjourned.

It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until the next day of meeting.

DISPOSAL OF UNCOLLECTED GOODS (AMENDMENT) BILL.

The debate (adjourned from March 14) on the motion of the Hon. A. J. Hunt (Minister for Local Government) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

The Hon. R. J. EDDY (Doutta Galla Province) .-This Bill is designed to speed up the operation of the provisions of the principal Act. The Disposal of Uncollected Goods Act 1961 resulted from an investigation made in 1960 by a previous Statute Law Revision Committee. The purpose of the Act was to assist repairers of uncollected goods by granting them the right which did not exist previously to sell the goods and to recover the cost of repairs from the proceeds. The Act also limited and regulated that right to provide due protection for the customers.

From evidence submitted to the committee it became obvious that repairers generally regarded the Act as setting out the only means by which uncollected goods could be disposed of by them and very

Disposal of Uncollected [28 MARCH, 1972.] Goods (Amendment) Bill. 4453

few of them had sought legal advice about the matter. It was surprising to the committee that no witness who appeared before it claiming to have a problem in this area had considered operating outside the Act. After reading the present Act the committee was of the opinion, and the Solicitor-General agreed, that the Act regulated only those sales made in reliance upon the empowering provisions of the Act and those only, and it was not designed to cover the field.

At present, the principal Act is concerned only with goods left for repair or treatment and upon which repair or treatment is carried out. Goods left for a quotation or assessment of costs of repairs or treatment do not come within the scope of the Act. Before goods can be disposed of under the present Act the bailee must send to the person a note informing him that the goods are ready for redelivery and that if the goods are not collected after nine months they will be sold in accordance with the Act. At the end of the nine months the bailee must send a second notice stating his intention to sell the goods if they are not collected within fourteen days.

The amendment provides that the procedure shall be simplified and the period of notice shortened and accordingly provides that the number of notices required to be sent be reduced to one. This notice shall be sent on or after the day the quotation or goods were promised or the repairs completed, whichever is the later. It should state that the goods are ready for collection and if they remain uncollected four weeks from the date of the notice they will be disposed of in accordance with the provisions of the Disposal of Uncollected Goods Act as amended by this Bill.

The Labor Party supports the Bill, because it will assist those people who carry out various types of repair work throughout the State.

The Hon. R. W. MAY (Gippsland Province) .-Members of the Country Party support this measure, which was previously referred to the Statute Law Revision Committee. The com~ mittee heard considerable evidence on the subject and came to the same conclusion as Mr. Eddy, that the problem was not as serious as it was thought to be. It was largely a question of lack of thought, ingenuity or understanding by the repairers concerned who believed that they could not operate outside the specific provisions of the principal Act. Originally, the position of the motor repairer was examined.

The Bill proposes to streamline the present procedure by reducing the time factor for disposal of goods from nine months to one month and covers the circumstances of a repairer who has in his possession goods whose value would not warrant the cost of putting them to auction. Members of the Country Party are a little concerned about this aspect, particularly as it applies to television sets and other articles. It could be argued that an instrument did not warrant the cost of repair nevertheless, because of its obsolescence, parts could be used as replacements in other sets. Consequently some articles would be of value to the repairers although they would be of little moment to a purchaser. The value of these parts could increase as time goes on. This danger can be foreseen and members of my party are pleased that provision is made for reopening cases by way of appeal to the court. We support the measure.

The motion was agreed to. The Bill was read a second time,

and passed through its remaining stages.

VICTORIAN ARTS CENTRE BILL. The debate (adjourned from March

14) on the motion of the Hon. Murray Byrne (Minister of Public Works) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

4454 Victorian Arts [COUNCIL.] Centre Bill.

The Hon. D. G. ELLIOT (Melbourne Province) .-This measure, amongst other things, changes the name of the National Art Gallery and Cultural Centre to the Victorian Arts Centre. I suppose brevity in nomenclature is always wise, particularly if it gives more recognition to and embraces more clearly the object of the undertaking. Certainly the title Victorian Arts Centre is most applicable to this new complex in St. Kilda Road near the edge of the city. Members of the Labor Party commend each and every person who has had anything to do with the Victorian Arts Centre. It is a viable project which has not cost an unnecessarily large amount of money, and it is a credit to this city. The centre will provide delight and enjoyment to the populace.

Of course, the construction of the opera-ballet theatre, the drama theatre and the lecture and experimental theatre will further widen the activity of the centre, and no doubt provide an opportunity for many more companies to come to Melbourne to present their productions. It should also stimulate productions within Victoria, and particularly within the metropolitan area. Victoria can be very proud of its amateur and semi-amateur theatre. Many groups carryon under great financial difficulties, but through the excellence of their productions over the years they have stimulated support and reflected great credit on themselves. At the same time, these groups have provided an initial opportunity to artists who have eventually gone on to bigger and better things, not only in Australia but also overseas.

I should like to find out a few details about the triple theatrical set-up, so to speak. In its context it appears to be similar to the downtown theatrical centre conception in Los Angeles where, as the people are a little more broadminded in their theatre, it is not confined to opera and ballet.

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE.-They have a bit of Gilbert and Sullivan.

The Hon. D. G. ELLIOT.- Yes, and musical comedy, variety and even vaudeville. The all-purpose Ahmundsen Theatre can seat 2,800 people. It also has a smaller drama theatre which seats approximately 800 people. In addition they have a theatre in the round. I wonder whether this experimental theatre at the Victorian Arts Centre will allow that type of production because the so-called theatre in the round is a common type of production in the world today. As the experimental theatre which is to be encompassed in this Victorian Arts Centre has been dubbed as such-in other words, experimental-I should be amazed if it could not be used for that type of production. An experimental theatre should be constructed so as to be versatile in every respect. Is this theatre truly of that type?

The measure also regularizes in the principal Act the title of the body which nominates two persons for appointment to the building committee. Members who were formerly known as the trustees of the National Gallery of Victoria are now to be called members of the council of trustees of that body.

The rent for the excellent parking area, the donations that will be forthcoming for this cultural centre and the rental charges for these theatres will be considerable. To my knowledge the rental charged for the theatres was not mentioned by the Minister in his second-reading speech. These modern theatres should attract not only local productions but also overseas productions with more versatility and a wider range of management than hitherto. Clearly the committee will have much money to control and it seems only natural to make this further amendment which will enable this worthy body to make the wider range of portfolio or first mortgage investment. It will result not only in perhaps a higher return but also in spreading the risk, if there is any, so that the investment should basically

Victorian Arts [28 MARCH, 1972.] Centre Bill. . 44~S

be wise with as far as is possible adequate security and a guaranteed return.

I join with the Minister in placing on record the Labor Party's deep appreciation of the work done by the members of the building committee. As the Minister stated, the gentlemen concerned have given unstintingly, and unselfishly of their time and efforts with a most dedicated outlook, to this Victorian Arts Centre.

When one looks back at the National Gallery, which in itself was a magnificent concept in Swanston Street, one sees a furtherance of the artistic endeavours at St. Kilda Road and realizes how through the years the concept of art in the form of painting has changed. I remember when I first studied at the library in Swanston Street, I would wander around the gallery. The works were more in the portrait or realism style, whereas now surrealism takes the main spotlight at the gallery. I have a daughter who is rather talented in the realm of painting. Today the whole aspect of impressionism fascinates young people although most of the young painters are just as good at realism.

Today the presentation of paintings in the Victorian Arts Centre is a wonder to behold. I venture to assert that it is as good as any in the world. The theatres have always interested me, and I should appreciate it very much if the Minister saw fit to comment on them. Whether or not one has been directly interested in the theatre, at some time or another it always claims one's attention and patronage. Therefore, the more motivating, stimulating and provocative it is the better. I do not mean provocative in terms of something suggestive but in the creation of talent and the stimulation of authors and production. That is why we need again-I emphasize that word-versatility in the whole concept of this triple theatrical set-up.

My worthy confrere in another place saw fit to ask the Government to comment on the fact that the building committee had made no reports to Parliament or the people, whereas other committees such as those concerned with the State Library and the National Museum have presented annual reports. It is gratifying to know that the Government has heeded a suggestion from the Labor Party in another place; 1 understand that the Minister will bring forward a suitable amendment at the appropriate stage.

I give full credit to all concerned with this measure. It is a little unusual for the Labor Party to be praising legislation. I suppose my learned Leader, my mentor and friend, Mr. Galbally, might say this is a little out of place. I t is possible he may even castigate me. I hope it is placed on record for all time that I have a feeling deep within me that in a way the theatre has lost one of its great potentials in Mr. John Galbally. Histrionically he has no peer. I could imagine him just as successfully treading the boards, claiming his share of the spotlight, particularly handling Shakespeare, because he is a great classic scholar.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett).-Order! I cannot rela te those comments to the Bill.

The Hon. D. G. ELLIOT.-It all relates to the theatre. You have been tolerant to me, Mr. President, over the years. After all, there are three theatres and surely there is a tie-up. Feeling full of goodwill, I could not help making that remark in an almost affectionate manner concerning my worthy Leader. The Labor Party supports the Bill.

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE (Northern Province) .-The House has listened to a very interesting speech from Mr. Elliot. The honorable member has enough histrionic ability to appear on the boards of these theatres himself. The roles he could take might be limited by his figure, but I am

4456 Victorian Arts [COUNCIL.] Centre Bill.

certain he would do justice to a number of Shakespearian characters, including Falstaff.

Changing the name of the National Art Gallery and Cultural Centre to the Victorian Arts Centre is obviously a sensible move and has the thorough support of the Country Party. This also entails the changing of the trustees to a council of trustees and again the Country Party supports the proposal. They are the main objectives. After dealing briefly with the Bill I shall go into its implications.

Regarding the holding of securities, it is obvious that certain people who may benefit the centre by leaving money to it may leave shares which it is not possible to sell on the market at that time, or they may make certain stipula tions regarding the form in which the trust funds are to be held. This Bill allows the committee to take advantage of other forms of investment which might not meet the requirement of trustee securities but which would be acceptable to the Treasurer. Here again the Country Party has no objection to what is proposed because these are reputable people and there should be no fear of the money going astray.

It is interesting to note what a large project the Victorian Arts Centre is for Melbourne. It is for the benefit of Victoria, too, because many country people, particularly children, visit the arts centre. So far it has cost approximately $13 million of which $1·5 million has been subscribed by the public and the remainder has come from the Government. The car park has been funded separa tely on a loan basis and that is being repaid over a period.

Regarding the theatres which Mr. Elliot mentioned, and about which he would have more expert knowledge than I have, it is interesting to note from the news that the last large live thea tre in Sydney is now being demolished and that there is no suitable auditorium in Sydney in

'J1he Hon. M. A. Clarke.

which to put on a theatrical performance of the type for which there are now three theatres in Melbourne. Sydney, of course, at some time or other will have an opera house, which mayor may not have suitable accommodation for putting on plays. There seems to be grave doubt about that. So the fact that Victoria will have these three theatres is a matter of great interest to me. I understand that approximately $22 or $23 million will be involved in constructing these three theatres. The opera-ballet theatre will seat about 1,800 people, and the smaller and more intimate drama theatre will seat 750 to 800 people.

I am particularly interested in the experimental theatre, which will also be available for lectures and so forth. This new concept will bring Melbourne up to date with the rest of the world by providing the means of putting on a new type of theatrical or film performance, or perhaps a mixture of both.

The expenditure of $22 million or $23 million includes the provision of foyers for the public, change-rooms for the actors and orchestra members, the erection of a spire which will contain a restaurant and cafeteria for the convenience of the public and the construction of additional administrative 'Offices and booking offices for the theatres. It will be a complete complex. Another matter which interests me is that various clubs and societies will be able to use the facilities in this new building. I understand that the chess club and similar clubs have been invited to make use of them.

Mr. Elliot paid tribute to the trustees and the building committee, and I thoroughly endorse his remarks. Mr. Ken Myer has been an outstanding leader of the project and mention should also be made of the Chief Executive Officer, Mr. George Fairfax, who is extremely dedicated to the completion of the whole complex. Honorable members should congratulate the tenant of the arts centre, the National Gallery, for doing such a

Victorian Arts [28 MARCH, 1972.] Centre Bill. 4457

wonderful job in transferring from its former quarters and making the artistic works available to the public. The State can be proud of the work which has been done and can look forward to the completion of the project. The Country Party has pleasure in supporting the measure, which will make part of the whole complex possible.

The motion was agreed to. The Bill was read a second time.

and ordered to be committed.

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE (Minister of Public Works) .-By leave, I move-

That it be an instruction to the Committee that they have power to consider an amendment to require the presentation of annual reports on the operation of the National Art Gallery and Cultural Centre Act 1950.

The motion was agreed to. The Bill was committed. Clause 1 was agreed to.

Clause 2, relating to the council of trustees.

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE (Minister of Public Works) .-1 con

gratulate honorable members on their excellent performance on this measure. Although Mr. Elliot appeared to be a little worried about getting into trouble with his Leader, he did a marvellous job in supporting the measure. I certainly thank honorable members for their support of the Bill.

Although future generations will not remember us by the freeways which we have built and, with deference to some of my Parliamentary colleagues, for carving up the city, the great commercial buildings which span the city, and the hundreds 'Of houses that have been erected, undoubtedly, as a generation we shall be remembered by this truly remarkable project. It was a courageous one for the Government and the community to undertake. I can remember that when the project was originally suggested, the Government received much criticism on the expenditure of such a large amount of

money which at that time probably could have been used to solve most of our housing problems and to meet many of the needs of the State.

With some expertise and knowledge, Mr. Elliot posed some pertinent questions concerning the use of the experimental theatre. I examined the Bill closely and I could not see where the questions fitted in, but probably they come within the scope of general discussion. I cannot answer technical questions on future policy on the use of the proposed theatre. Certainly I shall ensure that the information is provided to Mr. Elliot.

The Hon. D. G. ELLIOT.-I want to know whether Fiddler on the Roof will be just as welcome as I Pagliacci.

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE.I certainly hope so.

The clause was agreed to, as was clause 3.

Clause 4, providing, inter aliaAfter section 10 of the principal Act there

shall be inserted the following section:-"11. (1) From the commencement of the

Victorian Arts Centre Act 1972-

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE (Minister of Public Works) .-1 move-

That the expression" section:-, 11. (1)'''

be omitted with the view of inserting the following:-

, sections:-"11. (1) The committees shall not later

than the 30th September 1972 and not later than the 30th September in each year thereafter make a report to the Minister on the operation of this Act.

(2) Every such report shall be laid before both Houses of Parliament within fourteen days of the making thereof if Parliament is then sitting and if Parliament is not then sitting within fourteen days of ·the meeting of Parliament.

12. (1) '.

This matter was raised by Mr. Elliot and also in another place. The amendment I have moved follows an undertaking given by the Chief Secretary.

The amendment was agreed to, and the clause, as amended, was adopted.

4458 Cri'!les (Powers (COUNCIL.] of Arrest) Bill.

The Bill was reported to the House with an amendment, and passed through its remaining stages.

CRIMES (POWERS OF ARREST) BILL.

The debate (adjourned from March 21) on the motion of the Hon. A. J. Hunt (Minister for Local Government) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH (Doutta Galla Province) .-At the outset, I indicate the Labor Party's support for the measure and its pleasure at its introduction. It is hoped that it will play some part in reforming the powers of arrest for which the necessity has been long outstanding. As I have had no legal training, I feel most inadequate to deal with a measure of this type.

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-Nevertheless, Mr. Tripovich contributed to the deliberations of the Statute Law Revision Committee.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.-I hope so. On the other hand, I have not had the experience of many others in dealing with those who have been brought before the courts.

The need for the inquiry by the Statute Law Revision Committee arose from many references made in this place and another place by members of all pa'rties. Among the principal complainants of the need for reform were members of the Victoria Police Force. They pointed out to the Statute Law Revision Committee, of which I am proud to be a member, that the powers of police to arrest without warrant were dispersed over at least 64 separate provisions.

Accordingly, a definite need existed for reform. In endeavouring to put myself in the position of a police recruit and to understand when I had power to arrest with some protection, I found it most confusing and reached the point where I did not comprehend the position. I have the utmost sympathy for police reC'ruits of the

past who have had to try to understand the various provisions. In many instances, a policeman making an arrest is o.n his own and has to depend on his training and experience. He does not have the benefit of asking a superior officer for a direction. The decision must be made on the spot and I suppose many criminals have avoided arrest and many innocent persons have been arrested merely because of the confusion regarding the powers o.f arrest.

For the information of honorable members, the report from the Statute Law Revision Committee upon arrest without warrant and related matters was brought before the House on 19th November, 1968. It could be pointed out that a review of the offences for which a policeman was authorized to arrest without warrant does not reveal any common reason for the power and many of them are for offences that are not serious in nature. The committee endeavoured to pOint this out. It was illustrated to the committee from the evidence that using a wagon, car, dray or other vehicle in the business of a carrier without a licence or refusing to produce a carrier's licence on demand was a rather trivial charge on which a person could be arrested without a warrant. Another trivial offence was carrying on a business of hawker or pedlar without a licence.

Clearly, there was an urgent need for reVISIon of the law, and it was agreed that reform was necessary. The committee set about taking evidence and discussing the powers under the statutes of Parliaments in other areas where arrest without warrant was permitted. The most simple instruction that the committee could find was contained in section 8A of the Commonwealth Crimes Act 1914-1960, which provides-

Any 'constable may, without warrant, arres,t any person, if the constable has reasonable ground to believe-

(a) that the person has committed 'an offence 'against ,a law of the Commonwealth or of 'a territory, and

Crimes (Powers [28 MARCH, 1972.] of Arrest) Bill. 4459

(b) that proceedings against the person by summons would not be effective.

That is a very simple measure. It merely provides that a person may be arrested only if he cannot be proceeded against by summons. The Statute Law Revision Committee was concerned to ensure that no thief or criminal would be able to avoid a trial because of some amendment of the law, and also that a policeman should not be able to use the power of arrest as a penalty. The instruction issued to members of the Commonwealth Police Force is that arrest is a punishment and should be avoided wherever possible. The committee agreed with that instruction. Evidence was submitted of persons being arrested simply because it was thought that a night in gaol would be good for them. This, of course, inflicts a penalty upon a person before he is tried.

Other instructions to Commonwealth police officers are that arrest is the final step to be taken if there is no alternative, and that to deprive a person of liberty is a very serious matter.

Section 75 of the Police Offences Act 1953 of South Australia contains wide powers of arrest without warrant. They are mentioned at page 10 of the report of the Statute Law Revision Committee. Sub-section (1) of section 75 of the South Australian Police Offences Act 1953 reads-

Any member of the police force, without any warrant other ,than this Act, at any hour of the day or night, may apprehend any person whom he finds eommitting or has reasonable cause to suspect of havJng committed, or being 'about to commit, any offence.

The committee was of the opinion that there could be many different interpretations of the language in that provision. Sub-section (2) of tha t section provides-

Any member of the police force may require any such person to state his full name and address; and if such member has reasonable cause to suspect that the name or address stated is false, he may require that person to produce evidence of the correctness of the name or 'address stated by him.

What is set out in General Order No. 512 (1) of the South Australian Police Force was also noted by the committee. It describes the attitude towards arrest which should be adopted by members of that force.

My colleagues on the committee and I were highly impressed by the way in which the South Australian police are trained. Their training is not over a period of thirteen weeks; they undergo training for twelve months and then serve as policemen in the company of senior officers. Before a South Australian policeman makes an arrest or attempts to enforce the law on his own initiative, he has had two years of service in the force. This assists in the correct enforcement of the law in that State and, although it may be argued that this system is workable in South Australia because of its small population but would not work in Victoria, I am inclined to disagree. I think the standards observed in South Australia are very high; in fact, a police officer has to explain after the event why he arrested a person.

In New South Wales, section 352 of the Crimes Act 1900 is the principal provision relating to powers of arrest without warrant. Sub-section (1) reads-

Any constable or other person may without warrant apprehend-

(a) any person in the act of committing. or immediately after having committed, an offence punishable, whether by indictment, or on summary conviction, under any Act,

(b) any person who has committed a felony for which he has not been tried,

and take him, and any property found upon him, before a Justice to be dealt WIth according to law.

Sub-section (2) provides-Any constable may without warrant

apprehend, (a) any person who he, with reasonable

cause, suspects of having committed any such offence or crime.

4460 Crimes (Powers [COUNCIL.] of Arrest) Bill.

(b) any persen lying, er leitering, in any highway, yard, or other place during the night, whom he, with reasenable cause, suspects ef being about to commit any felony,

and take him, and any preperty feund upen him, before a Justice to be dealt with according to law.

The Statute Law Revision Committee considered a large body of evidence concerning laws which authorize police officers to arrest on, and without, a warrant. It conducted an extensive survey of practices in the different States, in New Zealand and in Great Britain, 'and tt came to the conclusion that powers of arrest without a warrant were very much in need of revision.

Paragraph 88 of the report readsThe Cemmittee is cenvinced ef the need

fer revisien ef powers of arrest witheut warrant. The existing Victerian previsiens are a "hetch potch" ef individual (and eften incensistent) previsiens with no. cemmen thread er principle. Seme ef the effences to. which they relate are serieus whilst ethers are cemparatively trivial. Adeptien ef a clear principle geverning the exercise ef pewers ef arrest witheut warrant weuld remeve this cause fer ccmplaint.

No. useful guide can be ebtained frem the cemplex laws extant in the United Kingdem, New Zealand, Queensland er Western Australia. As already mentiened, no. detailed examinatien was made cf Tasmanian law.

Paragraph 89 of the report readsThe alternatives seem then to. lie between

the rcundly-criticized Cemmenwealth sectien, the wide pewers in sectien 75 ef the Seuth Australia Pelice Offences Act, and in sectien 352 ef the New South Wales Crimes Act.

The committee decided that a police officer should have no power to arrest without a warrant except when he believes on reasonable grounds that a person has committed, is committing, or is attempting to commit an indictable offence.

The report, at paragraph 93, describes four different sets of circumstances in which arrests should take place. They are as follows-

(i) to. ensure the appearance of the persen befo.re a ceurt o.f cempetent jurisdictien; er

(ii) to. prevent any further disturbance ef a substantial nature to. public erder; er

The Hen. J. M. Tripevich.

(iii) to. ensure the personal safety er well being of the person; or

(iv) to. prevent the persistence of repetitien er ccntinuatien ef the cffence.

Of course, it is necessary to ensure that a person appears for his trial and that he should not be permitted to disturb public order; for example, it would be of little use to arrest an offender at a demonstration and then allow him to leave, for he will simply return to the demonstration and repeat the offence. It is also necessary to protect the safety of a person who,. for example, may be wandering around the streets in an intoxicated condition and endangering his wellbeing. The need for the prevention of the repetition of an offence is obvious.

I refer now to section 96 of the report of the Statute Law Revision Committee. I am sure that the abolition of felonies and misdemeanours and the problems associated with defining them raised difficulties, and I compliment the Government on the way in Which it has framed this proposed legislation. The relevant paragraph of the report reads-

The Ccmmittee wishes to. emphasize that even theugh it is reco.mmending a general power to. arrest witheut warrant in respect cf indictable o.ffences, it dces nct suggest that the police sho.uld be encouraged to. arrest in all indictable cases. On the centrary, it believes firmly that great discretien sheuld be used by pelice and that arrests sheuld net be made in cases where preceedings by summens are mcre apprepriate.

Concerning the power of discretion that ·a policeman should have, the Statute Law Revision Committee found that a South Australian policeman can be in possession of a warrant to arrest and, after having apprehended the persons concerned, he is a t liberty to re-examine the circumstances and, in his discretion, decide not to proceed with the warrant. But he must be able to explain satisfactorily why the arrest should not have taken place. This could occur in many cases concerning debts and in other matters.


I am sure that paragraph 103 of the report must have caused the Government to think deeply before this proposed legislation was introduced. It reads-

As set out in paragraphs 17ff. of this Report, the Criminal Law Revision Committee of the United Kingdom recommended abolition of the distinction between felonies and misdemeanours after having averred that powers of arrest without warrant are probably the most important consequence of an offence being a felony. The enactment of a new provision such as that recommended by this Committee will render that consequence inapplicable and thus remove the last substantial ground for the distinction. This Committee accordingly recommends that as a consequence of the enactment of the proposed new provision the distinction between felonies and misdemeanours should be formal'ly abolished leaving the distinction only between indictable and non-indictable off'ences.

I am sure that that paragraph also raised problems and that the Government has reached a satisfactory compromise.

The recommendations contained in paragraph 104 of the report particularly appealed to me. It commences-

As is indicated later in this report the Committee proposes to report later to honorable members in detail upon a suggestion that police be empowered in appropriate places to release arrested persons and serve at the time an information and summons.

That was a suggestion made to the Statute Law Revision Committee by Commissioner Crowley, who was then Inspector Crowley. At that time he was the secretary of the Poliee Association. The section continues-

It desires to say at this stage, however, that it strongly recommends that in any new law relating to arrest there be included a clear instruction to police that once the reasons based upon the Committee's criteria for the arrest have disappeared, the person arrested should be released as soon as possible, whether or not a summons is then issued or is to be issued at a future time.

It should be provided in the police regulations that, when a person is arrested, the arresting officer records the reason why it is not possible to proceed on summons. The record should be checked each morning by

a senior officer. It may not be necessary to reprimand the arresting officer if he wrongly arrests a person, but his attention should be directed to the proper procedures. Arrest should be a last resort to ensure that a person charged with a misdemeanour appears at the hearing.

Clause 2 sets out the powers of arrest under this Bill and various Acts. Proposed new section 458, to be inserted in the principal Act by the clause, takes cognizance of the recommendations made in clauses 93, 101, and 103 of the committee's report. Provision is made that a person found committing an offence may be arrested without warrant by any person. The safeguards set out in the report have all been included in the Bill, and I shall not examine them in detail. Sub-section (3) of proposed new section 458 refers to an arrested person being held in custody and also to his release. It provides, int,er alia-

A person who has been apprehended without warrant pursuant -to the provisions of par.agraph (a) in sub-section (1) in respect of any offence punishable on summary conviction (not being an indictable offence punishable summarily) and taken into custody shall be held 'in the custody of ,the person apprehending him only so long as any reason referred to in the said par:agraph for his apprehension continues and where, before that person is charged with an offence, it appears to the person arresting that person that ,the reason no longer continues the person 'arresting that other person shall, without 'any further or other authority than this sub-section, release that person from custody-

Something which happened in the City of Essendon gives an indication of what should be avoided. A person whose elbow protruded through the window of the car he was driving was told by a police officer on a motor bike to put it inside the car. The driver resented the attitude of the officer and challenged his right to tell him what to do. It was not long before words led to more words and the driver was arrested. The arrest was quite legal. The policeman had the right to make an arrest, and the driver did not have his licence with


him. Although the person was wellto-do, his wife could not produce the cash for his bail immediately and he spent the week-end in gaol. He had himself to blame to some extent, and perhaps the policeman was a little too officious, but this sort of thing should not occur.

Proposed new section 459 sets out the powers of members of the Police Force to apprehend persons who have committed offences either in Victoria or other States. Honorable members will remember DetectiveSergeant Henderson and his remarkable memory. When Detective-Sergeant Henderson saw an offender from another State, even though he knew of the offence and the background of that person, he could not arrest him. Under the Bill, an officer who has reasonable knowledge of an offence having been committed will be able to make an arrest.

Proposed new section 460 follows section 39 of the Justices Act but the provisions are extended to cover arrests for offences committed outside Victoria. The principle enunciated throughout the Bill is again set out in sub-section (1) of proposed new section 461 which provides that arrest on reasonable grounds shall not be unlawful. This is a saving provision which protects the policeman. Sub-section (2) provides-

A member o.f the Po.lice fo.rce shall no.t be bo.und to. take into. custo.dy or to. take befo.re ,a jus1tice any perso.n fo.und co.mmitting an o.ffence if such member believes o.n reasonable gro.unds that proceedings can effectively be bro.ught ,against that perso.n by way of summo.ns.

Proposed new section 463 defines the expression "finds committing". I would not debate with Mr. Storey or Mr. Hider whether or not the definition is correct.

Clauses 3, 4 and 5 make consequential amendments to the principal Act and various other Acts. The schedule takes, from certain Acts, defined powers of arrest which are no longer necessary because of the provisions of this Bill.

The Ho.n. J. M. Tripo.vich.

As I said initially, I feel inadequate to deal with the Bill, but, having heard the evidence submitted to the Statute Law Revision Committee, my desire to see a common-sense reform of the law is anything but inadequate. So far as I can ascertain, the Bill does everything possible to amend the law in the way recommended by the committee. The Labor Party is pleased to see the Bill come forward and wishes it a speedy passage.


The Hon. M. A. CLARKE (Northern Province) .-This Bill deals with powers of arrest and contains amendments to the Crimes Act. The inquiry on it was one of the most interesting to come before the Statute Law Revision Committee in my time. Mr. Tripovich dealt at considerable length with the legal points raised in the committee's report. The transcript of the evidence given before the committee is a fascinating document. Evidence was heard in other States and in Victoria concerning the uncertainty which prevails 'about the powers of arrest given to the police. The object of the Bill is to try to make the law more certain and to enable a police officer to be reasonably sure when he does make an arrest without warrant that he is doing it in the correct manner and within the law of the land.

Interesting questions arose, such as arresting in Victoria a person who had committed an offence in another State. Detective-Sergeant Henderson, the man with the photographiC memory, gave evidence that often he identified someone from a photograph but did not know whether he could arrest him 'On the ~harge that was laid against him in another State, even if he could remember it. He used to adopt the practice of following the man about the streets until he broke a rule or regulation. He said that if one followed a man around Melbourne it w'Ould n'Ot be long before he walked against a traffic light or committed some offence for which he

Crimes (P~wers [28 MARCH, 1972.] of Arrest) Bill. 4463

could be taken to a police station. This is an undesirable method of making an arrest, and the Bill puts the procedure on 'a more regular footing.

One matter which deeply concerned me throughout the evidence given to the committee was the apparent lack of provision for "unarresting" a man. If someone was arrested and taken to a police station it was a difficult matter for the policeman to say that he had made a mistake, or that he had made further inquiries and found that he was not the man concerned, or that no stolen property had been found in his house and that he could go. That difficulty has been resolved in the Bill by the provision contained in sub-section (3) of proposed new section 458. This is an important provision which will go a long way towards clarifying the mind of a policeman, and it will enable some persons to be released promptly.

Another point of particular interest is contained in paragraph (b) of subsection (5) of proposed new section 460. This provision will enable a person to be discharged out of custody. The Statute Law Revision Committee paid considerable attention to conditions in the remand yard at Pentridge and also to provision elsewhere for locking up persons after they have been arrested. The committee found, for example, that the police cells at Kerang were in a disgraceful condition. They are antiquated and have no facilities; they are a hot box in summer and freezing cold in winter; they consist of a square compartment without light or windows or sanitation.

The Hon. S. R. McDoNALD.-They belong to Ned Kelly's era.

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE.-That is so, and I think even Ned Kelly would have been horrified if he had been lodged in the Kerang police cells. Persons who are arrested and locked up, either because they cannot find bail or because it is the only thing to

do with them, naturally are presumed to be innocent until they are found gUilty. The provisions in the Bill will enable persons to be discharged from custody on their own recognizance for a reasonable amount, or without sureties. These are some of the most important provisions in the Bill.

As a member of the Statute Law Revision Committee, I commend thE: Government for adopting the committee's report, and as a spokesman for the Country Party, I strongly support the Bill which I believe jC) a big step forward in clarifying the position of the police and perhaps more importantly clarifying the position of the citizen when he has a brush with authority. Members of the Country Party are pleased that the Government has acted promptly in bringing this Bill before Parliament. We trust that there are no loopholes in it, and that it will be successful.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Melbourne N orth Province).-This Bill raises many important questions relating to the liberty of the subject. The power of arrest has been under examination by the Statute Law Revision Committee, and members of this House have spoken on the subject. This Bill is not perfect by any means. The old common law rule was the best, namely, that if a person was arrested he should at once be taken before a magistrate or a justice to show cause why he had been arrested, and a preHminaryexamination was held. The Bill provides that every person taken into custody for an offence shall be brought before a justice or magistrate "as soon as practicable." That is not good enough. What is as soon as practicable? If a person is arrested on Friday night, does "as soon as practicable" mean on Monday morning? One might think it does in the circumstances.

In this day and age when people are being arrested day and night. magistrates should be available so that arrested persons may be brought before them immediately. That may·


create some problems in the provinces, but it certainly should not create any problems in a large metropolis like Melbourne.

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE.-It did cause a problem under the comlnon law.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-I am not aware of it.

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE.-The Statute Law Revision Committee was told that it was hard to find magistrates.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-I agree with that entirely, but today magistrates are paid and they should be available. If they were, many problems in regard to putting people in cells, and so on, would be obviated. Why cannot a magistrate be permanently available at the City Watch House day and night? I am not suggesting that he should work a 24-hour shift, but a magistrate should be available. This is a large city where people are being arrested all the time. If one visited the City Watch House now, one would see two or three persons waiting to be formally entered into the watch house book. Police are on duty at night; why cannot a magistrate be on duty? That is the guts of this problem. That is why I do not think this Bill meets the problem.

The Hon. R. J. EDDY (Doutta Galla Province) .-1 support the remarks of my Leader. I believe the Bill does not go far enough, for the reasons outlined by Mr. Galbally. Frequently, people are locked up at all hours of the night and in many instances are unable to obtain bail. A person is presumed to be innocent until he has been proven gUilty. Justices of the peace are often called out at night and carry out the duties of a magistrate by fixing bail, and so forth. Magistrates are paid high salaries and could be rostered in the same manner as the police tIQ cover 24 hours of the day. This would be a fair procedure, but the Bill does not contain any provision along those 1ines.

The Hon. J. M. 'fRIPOVICH.-The Bill provides for the arresting officer to release the person. It is not necessary to get a magistrate.

The Hon. R. J. EDDY.-Apparently Mr. Tripovich and Mr. Clarke, who are interjecting, have not had anything to do with bailing out persons and do not understand what takes place. I appreciate what they are saying, that under this Bill the arresting officer has the right to set bail. In many cases the arresting offieer may not know whether or not he has the right to set bail. He may believe that bail should be refused to the suspected offender and could hold the man in gaol overnight or for two or three days from Friday night until Monday morning.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVIcH.-Mr. Eddy does not understand the Bill.

The Hon. R. J. EDDY.-I know something about t:he law because I carry out duties as a justice of the peace every day. The provisions of the Bill relating to a private citizen having power of arrest are ridiculous because n'O private citizen would endeavour to arrest or apprehend an offender. In what position is the private citizen if he apprehends a criminal and the criminal pushes him over? Can he then apprehend the man for resisting 'arrest? The Bill does not state the powers of a private citizen in making an arrest. I should like the Minister to answer this point.

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE.-The private citizen has had powers of arrest for 400 years. The Bill does not alter that.

The Hon. R. J. EDDY.-How many private citizens carry out this duty? The Bill is ridiculous. It does not give an indication of what is likely to happen to a private citizen if he apprehends a criminal.


The Bill was read 'a second time and committed.

Clause 1 was agreed t'O.


Clause 2, rel'ating to amendments to principal Act.

The Hon. A. J. HUNT (Minister .for Local Government) .-The Bill is .based on the unanimous report of the ,Statute Law Revision Committee. During the second-reading debate, I congratulated the committee on its report and I now pay tribute to the 'Clerk Assistant, Mr. Graham Grose, 'who played a large part in the formulation of the report and who, in .his work for the committee on this .report, was engaged in what was probably his last assistance to the Statute Law Revision Committee. It is a scholarly report based on a great deal of evidence, and on sound ·common sense. For the first time anywhere in the English speaking world real rationality is brought to the prinCiples governing powers of arrest. Several honorable members have referred to the hotch potch of illogical and contradictory provisions which previously applied where, in some cases, no right of arrest existed for serious offences yet a right of arrest existed for trivial offences. No guiding principles were apparent in the law. This Bill establishes guiding prinCiples which are very simple.

The first is that there is a right of arrest in indictable offences. The second is that there is a general right of arrest for summary offences against statutes but not against regulations, but for the first time this right is hedged in with safeguards for the subject. Those safeguards are that the arrest was necessary to ensure the appearance of the defendant before the court, or to preserve order, or to prevent the continuation or repetition of the offence, or to ensure the safety or welfare of the public generally or of the offender. In other words, although there is now a general right, for the first time clear safeguards are provided for the individual citizen. Instead of 'a hotch potch of contradictory provisions there is a simple principle-a principle that for the first time will enable members of the public to know their rights and the police to know where they stand.

The Bill also provides that as soon as any of these reasons for arrest have passed 'and there is no longer a need to hold the offender, for one of those four reasons, the arresting officer shall-I emphasize the word " shall "-release the offender without bail. With great respect to Mr. Eddy, and although I appreciate his genuine concern for the man in the street who may fall foul of the law I think perhaps he had insufficient time in which to examine the detail of the Bill. That detail provides when the reason for the arrest has passed, the arresting officer shall release the accused or cause him to be released. No question of setting bail arises. It is mandatory that he shall be released without recognizance and without bail on any charge other than for an indictable offence.

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE.-That is one of the most important innovations in the Bill.

Th~ ~on. A. J. HUNT.-I agree that It IS a magnificent safeguard. It simplifies the principles. Where 'the reason for the arrest continues, or in the case of an indictable offence the arresting officer must bring the 'man before a court or a justice "as soon as practicable ". Even if the Bill provided that he must be brought before a court o~ a justice immediately, that would stIll mean as soon as practicable. The words "as soon as practicable" mean what they say. They mean as quickly as possible in all the circumstances. It is hardly possible to get a man before a justice sooner than it is practicable to do so. This provision not only preserves the common law right but reinforces it by an express statutory provision.

The Hon. R. J. EDDy.-Jt depends on the police.

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-For the first time the police are given express statutory directions on how they must handle the case. A policeman who failed to carry out the duties hereby imposed upon him could be

4466 Trustee Companies (Sandhurst [COUNCIL.] . and Northern District Trustees

guilty of an offence and could make himself liable for false imprisonment or for failing to carry out his obligation to discharge the alleged offender when the reason for the arrest had passed.

The provisions of the Bill are clearly a significant advance in the law. They will result in a more enlightened approach in Victoria than can be seen anywhere else in the English speaking world. I am unable to speak for the non-English speaking world.

The Statute Law Revision Committee deserves congratulations for its report. I do not claim credit for the Government; the report was presented by the Statute Law Revision Committee. The Government has seen fit to act upon that unanimous report and in so doing it has at least contributed to this significant advance.

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE (Northern Province) .-The Minister has put the position in an admirably clear light because the Bill provides that if it is not practicable without inconvenience to bring an arrested person before a. justice of the peace or a Magistrates Court forthwith after he is taken into custody, a member of the Police Force of or above the rank of sergeant or for the time being in charge of a police station may release the man on his own recognizance. That means that the Bill contains provisions to deal . with the case where it is not practicable without inconvenience to take a man immediately before a magistrate.

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-Even without bail.

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE.-That is so. The objections which have been raised to the Bill regarding arrest are not soundly based. The Statute Law Revision Committee investigated this matter carefully and the Government has incorporated the recommendations of the committee in the Bill.

The clause was agreed to, as 'were the remaining clauses and· the schedule.

The Bill was reported to the House without amendment, and passed through its remaining stages.

TRUSTEE COMPANIES (SANDHURST AND NORTHERN

DISTRICT TRUSTEES ~EXECUTORS AND AGENCY COMPANY

LIMITED) BILL.

The debate (adjourned from March 23) on the motion of the Hon. Murray Byrne (Minister of Public Works) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH (Doutta Galla Province).-This Bill varies the restrictions imposed on the capital and shares of Sandhurst and Northern District Trustees Executors and Agency Co. Ltd. by amending the Second Schedule to the Trustee Companies Act 1958. Members of the Labor Party have no objection to the Bill and hope that it works. The Trustee Companies Act sets out what trustees may do with the money that they have at their disposal. The Act is based on that principle of protecting the interests of the people for whom money is being held in trust.

The company referred to in the Bill has operated for 86 years in the Bendigo district and has now opened an office at Shepparton. The company has plans to extend its operations to two more north-eastern towns. It is the only real country trustee company, and also operates in the Riverina. It will operate under the provisions provided in the Bill. These provisions are similar to the Trustee Companies (Equity Trustees) Act, which this Parliament passed a few months ago.

This Bill will enable the company to carry out a scheme of capital reconstruction. The company has a common fund from which it lends to

Executors and Agency [28 MARCH, 1972.] Company Limited) Bill. 4467

country people, particularly farmers, within the limitations of the Trustee Companies Act. Restrictions on the capital of this company are presently provided for in item 7 of the Second Schedule, which provides-

No member shall hold more than one thousand shares in his own right:

No more than $1 per share shall be called up except in the event of and for the purpose of the winding up of the company and every member shall be liable for this amount per share in such event in addition to the sum of $1 per share liable to be called up by the directors.

The object of setting those conditions was that in the event of deficiencies that may arise from the operation of the trust, there would be protection for the people whose interests were involved in the trust. It was also provided-

In such event every person who has been a director of the company at any time within the period of two years preceding the commencement of the winding up shall be liable for the sum of $1 per share on every share which he has held and transferred during such two years in addition to his liability upon any shares held by him at the commencement of the winding up:

As a final condition, the schedule laid down-

The capital of the company shall be and remain divided inoto shares of $2 and the number of shares 'in the company shall not be at any time reduced to less than fifty thousand.

It is quite evident that this company is developing. It has made a request to the Government that it be allowed to capitalize a certain amount of its funds but to hold in reserve amounts considered to be equal to an amount of $60,000 which shall be considered under this Act as sufficient to meet any deficiency of the company.

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE.-That is the uncalled liability.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.-Yes, and the Labor Party has no objection to this provision which is based, as I s'aid, on the Trustee Companies (Equity Trustees) Act. A fund will be created to meet the deficiences, but

the amendment to item 7 of the Second Schedule provides, inter alia-

No member shall in his own right hold shares of a nominal amount which is in total more than a one-fortieth part of the nominal amount of the issued capital of the company.

I doubt whether honorable members are competent to judge this issue. This should be established by a principle laid down by the Trustee Companies Act to ensure that the welfare of the people whose money is held in trust is protected. A new proposed condition is-

The reserve liability of the company (being that portion of the company's share capital which is not capable of being called up except in the event of and for the purposes of the company being wound up) shall not be less than $60,000.

The previous provision was for 50,000 pounds or $100,000, so this Bill will allow the company to capitalize $40,000 of its shareholders' funds which will then become available for lending purposes. I reiterate that I do not believe honorable members are competent to judge whether an uncalled liability of $60,000 will be sufficient to meet deficiences that might arise. However, if the Government is satisfied that this is sufficient, then members of the Labor Party are prepared to accept that assurance. We shall support the Bill but the Government will be responsible for any deficiencies that might arise, for which $60.000 is insufficient.

The Hon. B. P. DUNN (NorthWestern Province) .-Not a great deal can be said about this Bill which Mr. Tripovich has adequately, explained. The Bill deals with the financial restrictions imposed on the capital and shares of the Sandhurst and Northern District Trustees Executors and Agency Co. Ltd. as relating to the Trustee Companies Act of 1958. Honorable members could engage in debate on trustee companies generally, but the Bill simply allows the company to have a new reserve of $60,000 instead of its present uncalled oapital

4468 Trustee Companies (Sandhurst [COUNCIL.] and Northern District Trustees

liability of $50,000. This should provide a further safeguard and preserve the interests of the beneficiaries.

One interesting point about this company is that it basically operates in country Victoria and I further understand that it is the only trustee company of its kind operating virtually wholly in the country areas of Victoria. It is based in Bendigo and has a district office in Shepparton. The Country Party offers no objections to the Bill and accepts the Government's c'Ommendations of it.

The Hon. O. G. JENKINS (SouthWestern Province). - The aims of the Bill have been covered either in the explanatory secondreading speech of the Minister of Public Works or in the remarks made tonight by Mr. Trip'Ovich. The Sandhurst and Northern District Trustees Executors and Agency Co. Ltd. is one of ten trustee companies operating in the State of Victoria. Thes'e c'Ompanies are listed in the Second Schedule to the Trustee Companies Act. I shall not go through the names in detail but it is significant to note that in. the past two years, two of these companies have had amendments made to their rules which in essence is what an amendment to the schedule does. Those companies were the Equity Trustees Executors and Agency Co. Ltd. and the Perpetual Trustees Australia Ltd.

There are seven other trustee companies operating in Victoria and I believe that sooner or later they also will be seeking similar amendments to their rules to allow them to do either 'One of two things: Make a bonus issue to their shareholders out of their substantial reserves or issue new shares for cash and 'On which there w'Ould be no specific uncalled liability.

As was indicated by Mr. Tripovich, this company was formed in Bendigo in 1888, about the same time that a

similar company was formed in Ballarat. Both cities of Ballarat and Bendigo were similar in many fields. They participated in those early days in the formation of building societies and they set up their own trustee companies. These building societies and trustee companies provided a very valuable local service for the citizens in those cities. Over the years these companies have prospered and this particular company has built up substantial reserves. Mr. Tripovich was somewhat concerned about the amount of $60,000 being the uncalled liability reserve which would be available only in the event of a winding up. Although only relatively small, this company has substan tial reserves arising from retained profits, as the company has had wise and prudent management over the years. This company has shareholders' funds totalling $210,000 and of this $60,000 has been paid by shareholders being 60,000 $2 shares each paid to $1.

Thus the company has retained profits of $150,000 which is equal to two and a half times the paid-up capital. Having regard to the size of the company and the uncalled liability of $60,000, this amount is quite reasonable. ,Mr. Tripovich suggested that the Act should lay down an over-all provision for all companies. It is significant to note that the companies set out in the schedule differ in size and structure, and it is therefore necessary to have an individual approach to the needs of each company.

The Hon. J. M. WALToN.-Does the honorable member recommend the shares?

The Hon. O. G. JENKINS.-I am not recommending the shares. Mr. Walton is just as wise and prudent in the share market as are other persons.

The Hon. J. M. WALToN.-Are they as good as the shares of Geelong Gas Company?

Executors and Agency [28 MARCH, 1972.] Company Limited) Bill. 4469

The Hon. O. G. JENKINS.-Mr. Walton should know. The Bill will increase the statutory uncalled liability reserve from $50,000 at which it now stands to $60,000.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.-It was 50,000 pounds or $100,000 in the or.iginal schedule. The Bill will allow the company to use the remaining $40,000. Item 7 of the original Second Schedule says 50,000 pounds.

The Hon. O. G. JENKINS.- I refer to item 7 of the Second Schedule to the Trustee Companies Act which relates to the Sandhurst and Northern District Trustees Executors and Agency Co. Ltd. and states-

The capital of the company shall be and remain divided into shares of $2 and the number of shares in the company shall not be at any time reduced to less than fifty thousand.

Clause 2 of item 7 indicates that only $1 of the $2 shall be called up, so this left the uncalled liability reserve at $50,000.

In addition, this company will be able to issue bonus shares. The company will also be able to issue new shares for cash and this in turn will increase the capital funds available to its customers should it ever fall into real trouble. I anticipate, as I said earlier, that similar applications will be made by a number of the other seven companies mentioned in the Second Schedule to the Trustee Companies Act. I commend the Bill to the House.

The Hon. F. S. GRIMWADE (Bendigo Province) .-It is true that each and everyone of us has only a limited time on this earth and the mess we might make of our lives is left to our executors to unravel. This responsibility usually falls on our close friends or relatives. Quite often when the time comes for us to depart from this earth those with whom we have entrusted this responsibility are unfortunately old and in no position to carry out their trust and, therefore, have to go to a trustee company.

This Bill deals with a company which, I am pleased to say, is unique in Bendigo. Over a number of years throughout the central and northern parts of Victoria and southern New South Wales it has been responsible for the administration of estates and it has done an excellent job. If one had the time to look back and unravel the history of the great wealth made in the Bendigo goldfields and the way in which it was passed from hand to hand and State to State, the story of how the various major companies in Bendigo were managed at a distance by the Sandhurst and Northern District Trustees Executors and Agency Co. Ltd. would be fascinating. At this moment it is still an important company to Bendigo and other areas -of Victoria. In these days when small companies are bping gobbled up by larger companies it is interesting to note that some years ago this trustee company opened an agency at Shepparton, and has also given notice that it intends to open agencies at Swan Hill and Mildura. If members of the Oountry Party have placed their affairs in the hands of this company they may be sure that their estates will be capably administered.

I am pleased to support the Bill because everyone in Bendigo has a soft spot for the company. It may be a small organization but it controls estates worth almost $20 million. Honorable members in the corner benches might consider that this is chicken feed. However, I support the Bill because, by altering its structure, this company will be enabled to more ably meet today's demands. Parliament has passed similar legislation for other trustee companies and, as Mr. Jenkins has suggested, the same procedure will be adopted for other trustee companies. I am happy to associate myself with the Bill.

The Hon. F. J. GRANTER (Bendigo Province) .-There is little that I can say about the Bill, except that I agree with the praise which other honorable members have

4470 Crimes (Inhumane lCOUNCIL.] Punishments Abolition) Bill.

bestowed on the activities of the company, which has performed magnificently for its clients since 1888. The company has played its part in rural development right throughout Victoria, but mainly in the northern areas. The Sandhurst and Northern District Trustees Executors and Agency Co. Ltd. has lent considerable sums of money to farmers and, as the State Electricity Commission extended its activities into rural areas, the company has financed many of the farmers concerned so that they could obtain electric power. I am sure the rural people are grateful for the assistance rendered to them.

For many years, the company also has administered the estates of people in Bendigo from family to family over several generations. It has been well managed by Bendigonians, which is something of which the people of Bendigo are proud. The directors of the company are not all known to me, but they are progressive businessmen and this is one of the reasons why the company has been successful. The company has been strong in both its management and its policies, and with the added strength which will be provided by this measure it will continue to prosper and be a credit to Bendigo.

No doubt honorable members will know the company's office in View Street, Bendigo, and I am sure that those members who are interested in the National Trust of Australia will have another look at the company's premises when next they are in Bendigo. I commend the Bill to the House. I am sure that the company, through its management, will continue to prosper and remain an asset to the State of Victoria and to Bendigo in particular.


The Bill was read a second time, and passed through its remaining stages.

The Han. F. J. Granter.

CRIMES (INHUMANE PUNISHMENTS ABOLITION)

BILL. The debate (adjourned from Octo

ber 13, 1971) on the motion of the Hon. J. W. Galbally (Melbourne North Province) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

The Hon. S. E. GLEESON (SouthWestern Province).-This Bill' presents a problem which society has not yet solved, and very likely it will not be solved by my speech tonight. However, I hope to indicate certain directions in which I-and some other people-consider that Mr. Galbally's Bill is not the correct approach to the problem. Firstly, the Bill is based on the assumption that certain punishments are inhumane. I shall discuss that point. To some extent, Mr. Galbally questions whether punishment is a deterrent and he went to some length to look back on the days in which society inflicted some barbarous punishments in the hope of deterring criminals. I do not propose to go too far into that point except to say that punishment is a fact of life. We accept it as causing a behaviour pattern in children and ourselves from the beginning of our existence. In fact, the body is equipped to avoid accidents and so on, by the fact that it can feel pain. If it was not for this we would be a mass of injuries and very likely would not survive as long as we do. For that reason, we cannot idly dismiss the fact that at times pain may be a useful educator, but not necessarily a deterrent.

When we examine whether the infliction of pain is inhumane it will be found that the definition of " inhumane" is variable, ranging from "not human" to "not 'exhibiting kindness and compassion". In looking at the whole question of crime, punishment and rehabilitation, I suggest that the question of mercy is a very minor one. Actually, to form behaviour patterns it is best to leave mercy and compassion out altogether because those people who show a favourable

· Crimes (Inhumane [28 MARCH, 1972.] Punishments Abolition) Bill. 4471

reaction to mercy and compassion are the very ones who will not be found in our criminal courts. Using Mr. Galbally's argument, we do not inflict punishment or pain on a person because it is bad for society or society suffers in some way, or we lower our standing as human beings. It reminds me of the story of the mother taking her child to school and saying to the teacher, "John is a most sensitive child. If he does anything wrong, slap the boy next to him." I suggest that often this is the approach to criminals. Those who deserve punishment are some of our most inhumane people. While we tend to accept the fact that they have inflicted pain and injury on other people, we refrain from inflicting it on them.

The Han. J. W. GALBALLY.-Is not that the old rule, an eye for an eye? Does Mr. Gleeson believe in that?

The Han. S. E. GLEESON.-This has some place in the whole basis of the behaviour pattern. The point is that I am a reasonably peaceful man and I hate the infliction of pain on others.

The Han. J. W. GALBALLY.-All those people who are opposed to criminal law reform say that. They all tell their audience how wonderful they have been.

The Han. S. E. GLEESON.-No. I inflict pain when I think it is necessary. There is the story of a "bad" Quaker who was travelling on a ship which was attacked by pirates. He seized one man and dropped him over the side saying" Thou are not wanted here!" He may not have inflicted pain on the man but he removed him from the trouble zone. Most of the problems associated with the infliction of punishment on criminals result from a failure to come to grips with our own personal and social guilt complex. We have all heard that wonderful saying-

There but for the grace of God go I.

This is often used in the entirely wrong sense, that we should always be merciful. One should ask oneself: If one had committed a crime, what would be the just punishment for it? Some forget this necessity when they use that phrase. On the question of punishment and the infliction of pain, it must be remembered that after all pain is a relative term. It is a question of whether it is a mental or a physical hardship. How are these matters weighed? A schoolboy would far rather receive a whack on the backside than be kept in for a couple of hours after school writing some essays.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-This Bill deals with the flogging of criminals.

The Hon. S. E. GLEESON.-That is so. Many criminals would even accept flogging or at least the infliction of pain of some sort if it would get them out quicker. I am not saying whether flogging is good or bad. No society would inflict pain if it did irreparable damage. It is accepted by all behaviourists that punishment is definitely a deterrent. A person would not jump off a building 100 feet high in the hope ilia t someone was going to catch him in a net. Many criminals approach crime on the basis that they may not get caught, or that they may get off beoause of an unfortunate tendency of society to be merciful. This admirable tendency to desert justice for mercy distorts the picture.

There should be a definite punishment for each crime and it need not necessa'rily be a flogging or the infliction of physical pain. Every criminal should know What he lets himself in for. I do not include misdemeanours or crimes brought about by momentary passion, but crimes that have been carefully planned. If everyone knew what would happen if he was caught, it would have a deterrent effect.

The Han. J. W. GALBALLY.-I see you have not forgiven Christ for forgiving the thief on the cross for his crime.

4472 Crimes (Inhumane [COUNCIL.] Punishments Abolition) Bill.

The Hon. S. E. GLEESON.-I should like to get into an 'argument on this and say that mercy should be left to God and not to moan.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-It is the finest attribute of man.

The Hon. S. E. GLEESON.-We try to imitate God but we do not do it very well. Forgiveness by an individual of an offence against him is admirable; forgiveness by society of an offence against an individual is suspect. We become confused about rehabilitation, which is rather unfortunately brought into this argument, when we associate it with punishment. In the main, punishment should be a just retribution and a person should know it is not inflicted by whim or chance. Then he would accept it. Rehabilitation is something different. One of the problems in the study of behaviour-this is a personal opinion shared by others-is that we have adopted the wrong approach in considering immoral, unsocial or criminal behaviour. The tendency has arisen to regard it as some sort of mental illness or something over which the individual has not full control. In other words excuses, with insufficient reasons, are offered for this behaviour. I recommend to the study of honorable members the book entitled Reality Therapy by William Glasser, M.D. In considering unsocial behaviour, whether it be by criminals or by people suffering from mental illness, he states that we have been misled by the attitude of psychiatry to date. Tonight is not the time to go into this subject in depth so I shall skim over the surface. Mr. Galbally will see that there is something in this argument.

Irresponsible behaviour is the basis of criminal behaviour. Irresponsible behaviour should not be associated with this so-called mental illness which, in 90 per cent of cases, does not exist. What does exist is the person's inability to take the responsibility upon himself foor his behaviour

and his willingness to hide behind the. condoning of his behaviour by people ..

The Hon. J. M. WALToN.-From what boook does that argument come?'

The Han. S. E. GLEESON.-From. the book to which I have referred, Reality Therapy by William Glasser, M.D., in which he argues that persons. should realize that they are responsible for their own condition, for theirown acts, and take the necessarysteps to bring themselves into line· with accepted social behaviour. Theycannot be rehabilitated by anything from outside. We only condone and encourage them in this behaviour by saying they are mentally ill or that they have seen something nasty in the woodshed. I have been in the: woodshed and I have never seen anything that would cause these ca.ses of irresponsible behaviour. This mental illness and anti-social behaviour is spoken of by psychiatrists as if caused by society and not by the individual. The prospects of rehabilitation would be increased if psychiatrists and social workers would only look at the matter in the light of Reality Therapy.

I do not know how many persons take the step of becoming irresponsible on the basis that, after all, criminals get away not with murder but nearly murder because everyone is so kind to them and says that their anti-social behaviour is not their fault. But until criminals are caused to suffer the consequences of their actions and made to realize that it is in their own hands to rehabilitate themselves, we shall have these arguments of whether punishments are inhumane or not.

On the motion of the Han. M. A. CLARKE (Northern Province), the debate was adjourned.

It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until the next day of meeting.

Town and Country [28 MARCH, 1972.] Planning (Amendment) Bill. 4473

TOWN AND COUNTRY PLANNING (AMENDMENT) BILL.

The Hon. A. J. HUNT (Minister for Local Government) .-1 move-


Honorable members will recall the Town and Country Planning (Amendment) Bill which was before Parliament twelve months ago dealt almost exclusively with matters relating to appeals to the Town P1anning Appeals Tribunal. The Bill now brought down is more general in its scope, covering as it does a variety of matters which experience and the development of planning considp.rations have shown to be desirable. Many of the changes being made are minor and self-explanatory and the need for them is self-evident, and 1 shall confine my remarks to a number of clauses or groups of clauses to convey the primary contents of the Bill.

Clauses 4, 5 and 6 relate to the State Planning Council and statements of planning policy. The functions of this council are to advise the Town and Country Planning Board in the preparation 'Of statements of planning policy and with respect to other matters that in the interests of the State should be provided for in planning schemes, and to co-ordinate the future works, and developments of State instrumentalities and semi-governmental authorities. The council currently consists of the chairman of the board along with eleven heads of Government departments or statutory authorities or their respective nominees. The Bill adds to the membership of the oouncil the Secretary for Lands and the Secretary for State Development or their respective nominees. It is appropriate that the department responsible for Crown lands should be directly represented and it will be readily agreed that the functions of the new Department of State Development are clearly related to town planning particularly in the sphere of environment protection.

Currently there is no provision in the Act for a departmental or corporation head to change or dispense with his nominee, nor is there a p~ovision for a deputy for any member to attend any meeting which the member for some reason is unable to attend. These situations are being rectified. Furthermore, the current limitation of the co-ordinating function of the council to the future projects of 'Only those departments or instrumentalities represented on it is being removed. Clearly, if the State Planning Council is to have any worth-while function it must be able to co-ordinate all planning projects and not only the public projects on which the instrumentality concerned is represented.

Since the State Planning Council was constituted in 1968 the Governor in Council has approved four statements of planning policy, two concerning the Mornington PeninsulaWesternport area, one concerning the Dandenongs and the most recent concerning the Yarra Valley. Other statements are in course of preparation. It has been found worth while for there to be wider consultation in the preparation of these important documents and the Bill is ensuring that all responsible authorities whether regional or municipal, that may be affected by a statement of planning policy shall be given an opportunity of commenting on a draft statement. This procedure, although not required by the legislation, was used to great advantage in respect of the statement of planning policy regarding the Yarra Valley. All municipalities and members for the area received copies of the drafts, and their comments upon it assisted materially in the production of a better and more effective document. It is proposed that that procedure be extended and given statutory form.

Clauses 8 and 9 refer to regional planning authorities. To date only two such authoritits have been constituted - for Westernport and

4474 Town and Country [CQUNCn...] Planning (Amendment) Bill.

Geelong areas respectively. Discussions have been and are taking place with a view to the constitution of further such authorities. Currently. the Act envisages that any such authority prepare a single planning scheme for the whole of its area of jurisdiction. This will not always be practicable, and frequently it may be far more efficient to proceed with sectors of the region piece by piece, 'dealing one by one with important areas. The Bill provides that the area may be planned by a series of schemes if so desired.

Currently membership of a regional planning authority may include, in addition to municipal representatives, other persons appearing to the GovernOr in Council to be specially qualified to so serve by reason of knowledge or experience, but such persons may be appointed only where all the municipal representatives on the authority so agree. This has been interpreted to mean "unanimously agree", which I do not believe was ever the intention of the House in passing the legislation.

The Bill provides for the additional members to be approved merely by the majority of municipal members.

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE.-Who is asking for that provision-the existing authorities?

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-No, this is a matter to which attention has been drawn by a number of groups with community interests, including conservation groups, and I have been conscious of it for a considerable time, even before my days in the Ministry. It was always intended that regional authorities could be strengthened by the addition of some persons from outside municipal service who may have special qualifications which will assist them to serve the area as a whole rather than individual portions of it. These persons could well be interested in conservation or industry or in the overall future of the area.

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE.-But money is being provided by the municipality. These people will have some say in how it is spent without any financial responsibility.

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-The amendment merely provides that any such additional nominee shall be approved by a majority of municipal members on the regional authority, and municipalities therefore are amply safeguarded in ensuring the character of the representation.

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE.-The minority municipalities will not be safeguarded.

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-This Bill also provides that the municipal representatives shall be councillors and that the normal term of their office shall be three years. The purposes of that amendment are to remove any ambiguity or doubt which exists as to whether they need or need not be councillors, and to provide continuity.

It will be required that members of a regional planning authority who have a direct or indirect pecuniary interest in any contract with the authority or any other matter before the authority shall, except in stated circumstances, declare their interest and leave the meeting while the matter is discussed and decided upon. The provisions closely follow those in section 181 of the Local Government Act relating to municipal councillors.

The current basis of apportionment of costs of regional planning authorities is as agreed upon by the respective councils or, in default of agreement, as determined by the Governor in Council. It is now proposed that the basis of apportionment shall be the net annual value of the municipal districts or parts thereof included in the regional area; however, the Governor in Council may authorize an alternative basis to which a majority of the councils concerned have agreed.


In preparing estimates an authority is being required to consult with and consider the comments of the respective councils. The amounts to be contributed by the municipalities are to be collected by precept served on them. This system has worked extremely well with the Dandenong Valley Authority. The relevant provisions of the Bill have been taken from the Dandenong Valley Authority Act and adapted appropriately. An authority is being empowered to raise loans with the approval of the Governor in Council. At present, merely overdraft borrowing is authorized.

Section 14 of the Act enables the Town and Country Planning Board at the request of the Minister to operate a planning scheme for any area, and section 15 authorizes the board with the consent of the Minister to enter into an agreement with a council or councils to prepare a scheme at municipal expense. While the former section has been used frequently, the la tter has never been used and it is proposed to substitute for it a power for the board with the consent of the Minister to make an agreement with any responsible authority to assist it in the preparation or administration of an interim development order or planning scheme wholly or partly at the expense of the responsible authority. This provides a flexibility not previously available and will provide a means of helping the smaller responsible authorities which cannot easily meet the high cost of engaging professional planning consultants but at the same time leaving the basic planning responsibility in local hands. Also there are situations where it may not be unreasonable for assistance to be given because the planning serves some particular State or national interest. Clause 10 effects this change.

Provisions relating to the making, amending and revoking of interim development orders are being re-

enacted with changes of a procedural nature. The Governor in Council will be able to modify an interim development order on giving approval to it. The need for this arises because these orders are now frequently being made in a more complex and sophisticated form. Also, it is being specifically provided that any party concerned may apply for an amendment to be made to an interim development order as may be done in respect of a planning scheme. Because of the more ready means being provided for amending such orders, sub-section (lB) of section 17 under which the Minister has power to authorize the issue of a permit for some purpose prohibited by an interim development order is being repealed. Clauses 11 and 21 cover these items.

Clauses 12 to 18 relate to planning permits, applications for them, and appeals. Clearly, an application for a permit ought to be made only with the consent of the owner or his representative, without which grave abuse could arise. Doubt has been cast on the validity 'Of the regulation requiring an application for a permit to be signed by the owner where he is not the applicant. On the other hand, at times there have been interminable legal arguments as to whether an application was validly signed by or on behalf of an owner or indeed who was the owner in the particular circumstances. Both these problems are met by the requirement that the application should be signed by the owner or accompanied by evidence to the satisfaction of the responsible authority of his consent.

It may occur from time to time for a variety of reasons that a planning permit is not acted upon. A change in circumstances with the passage of time may make it undesirable that some development for which a permit has been granted should proceed. It

4476 Town and Country [COUNCIL.] Planning (Amendment) Bill.

is being provided therefore that permits issued henceforth will expire if the development is not commenced or completed within specified times; but provision is made for the extension or reinstatement of a permit on application made before or within three months after the time specified. A right of appeal to the tribunal will lie when the responsible authority refuses or fails to grant such an application.

Often a responsible authority may need further information to enable a proper consideration of an application for a permit. This is being specifica~ly provided for, and the date of receIpt of the further information requested will become the basis for fixing the time during which the applicant may appeal against the failure of the responsible authority to grant a permit. A right of appeal to the tribunal against a request for further information is being provided for.

I think honorable members and the community generally will agree that the tribunal system of hearing appeals is by and large greatly superior to the replaced system whereby. the Min!ster decided an appeal followIng consIderation of 'a report by delegates who heard the parties concerned. Appellants and objectors alike now have the knowledge that their submissions will be heard and considered by an entirely independent body in the impartiality of whose decision there will be greater confidence.

The tribunal is deliberately tailored to provide protection for the rights and interests of individuals, and to adjust rights as between individuals where those rights are not catered for by the detailed provisions of a planning scheme. Also the finality of the tribunal's determination keeps these issues clear of the realm of politics, as indeed I believe they should be.

However, the very finality of the tribunal's decision seems singularly inappropriate where the determination involves issues of over-all

The Han. A. J. Hunt.

planning policy or public policyincluding cases where 'a decision by the tribunal may in effect determine the whole future of a large area, or even an entire region, regardless of the views of the responsible authority, the Town and Country Planning Board, the Minister or the Government.

The tribunal has never been intended to formulate over-all planning or public policy so much as to adjust private rights or interests within the fram'ework of over-all planning or public policy. The formu1ation of public policy has always been a matter for Governm'ent and the determination 'Of planning policy has itself in the last resort also rested with Government after partiCipation and initiation by local and regional authori ties and consideration of the advice of the Town and Country Planning Boa'rd.

Much thought has been given to the appropriate means to meet this problem and a number of alternative proposals have been considered. The proposal believed to be the most appropriate and acceptable is included in clause 15 of the Bill. It authorizes the tribunal to invite the Minister to make submissions on any matters which he may consider to be relevant to the project of land use or development with Which the appeal is concerned, and which raise major issues of public or planning policy. The Minister will be able to make any such submission in writing, or orally at the hearing of the appeal by a person deputed by him for the purpose. Also being provided for is the occasionprobably it will be very infrequentwhere the Minister of his own motion may desire to brin~ some asp~ct of policy before the trIbunal. PartIes to appeals will be made aware of any submissions of the Minister and have opportunity to submit any comments in relation to them as they see fit.

The tribunal is being required to have regard to the Minister's submission in formulating its determination on an appeal. In effect the


Minister will become an additional party to the appeal, yet the independence of the tribunal will be preserved.

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE.-Does that mean that the Minister will direct the tribunal?

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-Not at all. To give an example, it will be obvious to all members of the House that if the Ampol-Sleigh appeal at Bittern had gone to the tribunal :and been upheld, then the granting of that appeal would have predetermined the whole future of the -area in advance of detailed planning by the local authority and adoption of the plan by the Government. I have suggested that this situation ought not to occur. Major issues of planning policy ought to be decided, as in the past, after consultation between the local authority, the regional authority where one exists, the Town and Country Planning Board and the Government. The provision requires no more than that where an appeal raises a major undetermined issue of planning or public policy, the tribunal may request advice on the Government's policy through the Minister, or the Minister may, of his own motion, inform the tribunal. The tribunal then takes into account advice of the Gove-rnment's policy upon that issue in proceeding to a ~etermination of the appeal.

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE.-What happens if it goes against the Minister? .

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-The Bill requires the tribunal to pay due regard to the advice of the Minister, not as to the determination it should make on appeal itself, but upon the issue of planning or public policy involved, just as the tribunal must now also pay due regard to any statement of planning policy adopted by the Governor in Council under the Town and Country Planning Act.

Session 1972.-159

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-I thought it was taken away from the Minister because of complications, and now the Government is putting it back in again.

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-No, I have made it quite clear that I believe the independence of the tribunal is a most valuable concept in the interest of the public generally and in the interests of freeing these appeals from the realm of politics. Equally, however, I believe, and I think Mr. Swinburne will agree, that the Government ought to take responsibility for major issues of planning or public policy and that a tribunal cannot fairly be expected to accept that responsibility. This provision enables the tribunal to seek advice from the Government when a major issue of planning or public policy is involved;

While what I have said in favour of the tribunal generally stands, most honorable members will have become aware that the Town Planning Appeals Tribunal is not s~c'ceeding in determining appeals at a rate commensurate with the numbers being received week by week. One reason for the delays is the practice of parties raising before the tribunal technicalities which lead to much hearing time being expended in legal argument rather than in the discussion of planning considerations. The Act requires the tribunal to be bound by good conscience and the substantial merits of the case rather than by technicalities or rules of evidence, and a glance at the Act indicates that the latter was never intended.

A typical illustration arises where a responsible authority, having refused an application for a permit on stated grounds, when defending itself on appeal, submits to the tribunal that the appellant's application was invalid by reason of some minor deficiency and that therefore the subsequent proceedings are out of order. Obviously in such a case any deficiency of any importance in

4478. . . T~wn qn4· Country . [COUNGIL.). Rfanning (Amendment) Bill.

an . application should have been recognized when the application. was initially conside'red and the apphcant requested to rectify the matter. The new section 21A in clause 17 and clause 18 are designed to overcome situations of this nature with a view to minimizing delays.

At present the tribunal is required to give reasons-in practice this means in writing-for all its determinations. Responsible authorities are not greatly concerned with reasons where tribunal decisions have confirmed their own. Appellants whether successful or' otherwise are more interested in the result of an appeal than the reasoning behind it. Objectors also can be expected to be more interested in the result than the reasons. It is therefore being provided that the tribunal will be required to give reasons in writing for its decisions only when any party so requests. If all parties are happy to dispense with it, 'clearly it is sensible to do so and thus save a great deal of time.

The Hon. M'. A. CLARKE.-That applies to other tribunals also, does it not? .

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-In some other tribunals, that is the rule. I might add that this does not preclude the tribunal from promulgating reasons of its own motion where it feels that in the pu.blic interest they should be published. I cite as an example' a case involving important issues:

The Hon. V. T. HAusER.-Does this Bill have any retrospective effect on previous decisions?

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-Not in respect of planning permits. The Board of Works has found itself in theposition where some work it desires to carry out as a sewerage authority is subject to the issue of a permit under the Melbourne Metropolitan Planning Scheme. Furthermore, a number of metropolitan councils which administ~r the scheme .in part by'delegation

from the board have found themselves. in a similar position in relation. to. some municipal project.. Honorable' members will recognize that where ··a: planning authority wears two. hats, so to speak, and is' at the same time a construction authority, it is undesirable that the authority should issue to itself a planning permit in respect of construction works. There' is always the possibility, or at least a suspicion, that its judgment on planning matters may be clouded in these' circumstances and that more attention. may be given to constructional or economic considerations than to planning issues.

. The Bill provides in clause 20 that in circumstances of this nature the Town and Country Planning Board shall become the responsible authority to which the Board of Works or the council affected may apply for the necessary planning permit, and normal procedures including objections by affected persons and appeals shall apply. I believe that this is a worthwhile advance in separating functions.

Section 25 of the Act sets out a procedure in relation to works of· public authorities in areas where interim development orders are 'in operation. Section 35 provides, inter alia, that planning schemes shall be' binding upon public authorities unless the Governor in Council otherwise provides. It is now proposed that public authorities should. be. in the, same position in relation to an interim development order as to a formal scheme. I believe that· this was always intended and that this omission was an early drafting error. Section· 25 in its present form is being deleted and section 35 is being appropriately' widened by clause 23.'

Section 44 provides a procedure. whereby the responsible authority may cause a building or work erected or carried out in .contravention. of an

Adjournment. [28 MARCH, 1972.] . Adjournment. 4479

interim development order or planning scheme to be pulled down or removed. It has been found that when a property, in respect of which a contravention has occurred, has been transferred into other ownership, no effective action can at present be taken. Clause 25 alters the section to . remove this restriction on the enforcement powers of the respon'sible authority.

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE.-SO that . you can pull them down for freeways?

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-No, not at all. The Third . Schedule sets out the matters that may be included in planning schemes or be subject to plan.ning control. These are being widened to specifically enable the development of land to be requested in relation to the provision of reticulated services, and, more importantly, to . facilitate the preservation of objects .and areas of scientific, historical, or . architectural interest or natural beauty, or areas otherwise having speCial significance. In other words, ',much greater opportunity will be .given for responsible authorities to provide .for the . preservation of

,notable features. " 'fown planning is growing in -im-

. p'ortance . in the broad sphere gf public administration and although only ten years have passed since the last· complete review of the legislation concerning it in this State, it is 'already apparent that a further comprepensive review is called for. ~ Meanwhile this Bill will have the effect of facilitating planning and its admiltistration in the best interests of planning authorities, the public and -the State generally. 1 commend it to the House.

o.n the motion of the Hon. J. W. GA~BALL Y (Melbourne North ProVince), the debate w~s adjourned.

It was ordered that .the debate be adjourned until the' next 'day of meetiilg. .

ADJOURNM,ENT. HAIR REPLACEMENT SERVICE-LANDS

DEPARTMENT: CONSTRUCTION OF ROAD IN SHIRE OF DUNDASMUNICIPALITIES: GRANTS FOR SALEYARDS.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER -(Minister of Agriculture) .-By leave, I move-

That 'the Council, at its rising, adjourn until Tuesday. April 11.

The motion was agreed to.· The Hon. G. L.· CHANDLER

(Minister of Agriculture) .-1 move---That the House do now adjourn.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALL Y (Melbourne North Province) .-A group calling itself the largest hair replace'ment corporation in the world advertises that it has a new and eminently successful method of hair replacement. Medic-hair is a method ,of attaching hair to a person1s scalp . It is stitched onto the scalp so that the hairpiece is kept firmly in position ... To illustrate this, Mr. President, it is done in the same way as if the wig you are wearing were attached to your scalp by sewing it .onto ypur scalp.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett)~-I am: very glad that it is not. Is this a matter of ·Government administration?

. The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-Yes, Sir. These people claim that one can have a new permanent head of hair by having it stitched onto one's scalp. They say that one visit to the clinic is enough; the client never has to come back, he treats his new hair as his own. "Medic-hair is part of you, giving the same strength and security as you 'enjoy with your own hair" , says the advertisement. The advertisement also says, "The Medic-hair becomes part of your anatomy, like natural hair, teeth and fingernails. "

These claims are brazenly false and fraudulent. What happens is. that one gets infection at the site of the

4480 Adjournment. [COUNCIL.] Adjournment.

penetration, bleeding, keloid formation at penetration sites, hair loss and not hair gain, and inflammation. The scalp becomes irritated particularly by movement at night of the head on the pillow. This hairpiece is attached by anchors to the scalp, the anchors being the sutures that are put in. They used to use steel or wire, but now it is some form of nylon.

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE.-Is it done by a doctor?

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-Yes, by two doctors, I understand. I do not want to mention any names, but the Minister has asked me. It is impossible to keep the scalp clean because one cannot remove the hairpiece. Therefore, this Medic-hair becomes an irritation and in fact the scalp itself becomes a grease trap.

There is no way at all to prevent baldness, except to become a eunuch before adolescence-that is a medical fact. The method of doing this is to put fine threads into the scalp which leave a number of anchorage points to which the hairpiece is tacked on. Because the skin alone is too weak to take the strain which might be put on the hairpiece, the sutures are implanted below the next layer down-the subcutaneous tissue-or perhaps even deeper still. An infection entering through the anchor.age points therefore has a direct path to the tissues immediately above the skull; and an infection in this region is particularly dangerous as blood-vessels from the area lead directly into the brain's bloodvessels.

The advice of the medical profession is clear and emphatic: A person should not have stitches implanted in his scalp for hairpiece attachments. Instead of the Government being after the scalp of these fraudulent advertisers, it complained that the Opposition has 'acted with head-long baste. These advertisements are

flourishing in the newspapers, and the Government is attempting to plug a rat-hole with an apple dumpling.

In the United States of America, a Federal Court injunction was issued against Medic-hair International. I have read the affidavits and evidence.

The Medic-hair treatm'ent is by no means inexpensive. It costs $1,000 or so fora 'Sore head 'and the certainty that one day medical treatment will be needed to remove the sutures in the scalp and the head.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-Is this occurring in Melbourne?

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-Yes, it is, and the victim is back to where he started from, namely,with a bald head and, in addition, he is also $1,000 or more the poorer. When I say "or more ", the sum of $1,000 is just for the treatment. The person concerned has to pay fOT the treatment and then he has a sore head and must visit the doctor because of infections and so on. What is the Government waiting for? Is it waiting until somebody dies as a result of infection? As I think I said during the debate on a recent motion .lor the adjournment of the House to discuss this subject, the situation in this matter is similar to that of a sword swallower with a bad attack of the hiccups. , The gravamen of my complaint is this: What is the Government doing about the matter? It is not 'as though the advertisements 'are tucked away in some 'Obscure journal; they appear in daily newspapers throughout Australia. 1 have not read them at any length, but I am emphatic in saying that although we shall always have advertising with us, we must continue to fight fraud tooth and nail.

The HOD. C. A. MITCHELL (Western Province) .-1 wish to refer to a problem which exists in the Shire of Dundas. Mr. A. Anderson, who resides in that shire, has a property


to which a road is to be constructed. The road will pass through some forest. Som'e time ago, the Forests Commission gave permission for the project, and approximately twelve months ago, the Lands Department surveyed the area. However, because the Government has established the Land Conservation Council, the proposal for the road must be submitted for the council's approval. The situation is that although the council has the money available, nothing can be done about it. It appears that the formation of the Land Conservation Council has brought progress within the State to a halt.

The Hon. H. R. WARD.-That is Country Party policy, is it not?

The Hon. C. A. MITCHELL.-I think the honor-able member should examine his own party's policy. The Minister ()f Lands cannot do anything. He may :as well go 'On holidays for the next two years. That is how long it will take the council to catch up and t{) carry out its functions. This is a sorry state of affairs. Although a survey has been made, the person ·affected cannot do 'anything until the Land Conservation Council's approval has been given. The Minister for Local Government has stated that the Government alw·ays acts expeditiously, and I should like it to do so in relation to this matter.

The Hon. S. R. McDONALD (Northern Province) .-1 wish to refer to the allocation of subsidies and finance by the Local Government Department to municipal councils for the construction and maintenance of municipal sale-yards.

Honorable members who were members of the Meat Industry Committee will recall that in 1971 the committee investigated the finanCing of municipal sale-yards. During the committee's investigations, the Minister----correctly, in my opinion--decided that the allocations of subsidies and funds should be frozen until the

committee's report had been submitted and considered. In November, 1971, the committee's report was tabled 'in both Houses of Parliament. Among others, one of the committee's recommendations was that existing Government subsidy commitments should be met, that applications be still considered and that action should be taken as it had been in the past until the recommendations of the com~ miUee had been implemented.

In recent weeks, several municipalities, including St. Arnaud, Terang, Echuca and Shepparton, have corresponded with me. They are interested to learn what will be the future policy of the Government. They have plans which are in abeyance and urgent maintenance is required in some cases. Can the Minister indicate what future Government policy is likely to be and whether councils which are interested in this matter will be given an early indication as to when they can proceed?

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture) .-Mr. Galbally has drawn attention to the question of hairpiece attachments advertised by Medic-hair International. He mentioned that the treatment involves a cost of $1,000 or more, and that the advertisements to which he referred are fraudulemt. I shall bring this matter to the attention of the Minister of Health, and I hope the honorable gentleman will furnish information to Mr. 6albally. This matter appears to be related to the subject of the debate on the motion for the adjournment of the House last week. I shall let Mr. Galbally know what action the Department of Health intends to take in the matter.

The Hon. A. J. HUNT (Minister for Local Government).-The matter to which Mr. Mitchell referred is the concern of the Minister of Lands, but his remarks were a criticism of the existence of the Land Conservation

4482 Adjournment. [ASSEMBLY.] Questions on Notice.

Council more than they' were concerned with a matter of administration. I point out that the Country Party supported the establishment of that council, but I shall draw the attention of the Minister of Lands to the honorable member's remarks.

Mr. McDonald referred to the fact that municipal councils are awaiting decisions in connection with sale-yards. The Meat Industry Committee's report on livestock selling was examined in detail by the Minister of Agr-iculture and myself. It was examined in even greater detafI in regard to its implications by :setiior officers of both of th~ departments concerned, and the officers submitted independent report,s. Thereafter, th:e matter was the subject of 'consultation be,tween the Minister of Agriculture and myself, and, jointly, we made certain recommendations to Cabinet a sho,rt time ago., Because of the importance of the issues involved, Cabinet required time to consider the matter. It is expected that firm determinations on recommenda tions arising from the reports will be 'made at' the next' Cabinet 'meeting: I should add, meanwhile, that Cabinet has agreed to the formation of a sale-yards advisory 'committee which will function somewhat along the lines recommended by the Meat Industry Committee, although not precisely so. In addition, the composition of the committee is to differ from what has been recommended.

The only ann0l:ll1cement that I can }llake prior to the firm decision which ,I hope will be' taken at the next Cabinet meeting is that existing commitments which were referred to by Mr. McDonald will be met. I hope to announce Cabinet's decision when the ,House next meets.


The House adjourned at 9.59 'p.rn:, until Tuesday, April 11.

The Hon. A. J. Hunt.

'1Jjtgislntittt. Asstmhly. '

Tuesday, March 28, 1972.

The SPEAKER (Sir Vernon Christie) took the chair at 2.34 p.m., and read the prayer.

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE.

The following answers to questions on notice w'ere circulated:-

PROBATION 'AND PAROLE DIVISION.

PAROLE BOARDS.

(Question 'No. 874)

Mr. WILKES (North cote) asked the lYIinister for ~odal Welfare- . - .,

1. Who ~re the members of the respective parole boards, indicatmg 'the member's age ineac~ case? .

2. What' special trairiing and/o·r experi~ ence these members have had in the field of penal ref?rm and parole? . .

3. What are ". the respectiv·e terms of appointment?" .. . .

4. Who presents the case for the. pr!soner to a parole board?

5. What is the delay in hearing cases by each board? . '

. 6. How many applications for' parole were heard by each board in' each of the years 1969, 1970 and 1971?

7. How many applications for parole were-(a) approved;' and (b) refused?

8. What were the reasons for refusal in each case?

. 9.· How often each parole board meets?

10. Who is the chairman of each board. what is the method of appointment, and what is the terms of office in each case?

11. What remuneration, if ariy, is paid to members of parole boards?·

12. What was the cost of the administration of parole boards in ea,ch' of the years 1969. 1970 and 1971?

Q"Iestions ., [28 MARCH, 1972.] qn Notice. 4483·

Mr. I. W. SMITH (Minister for Social Welfare) .-The answers areFor parts I, 2, 3, 10 and 11, the information sought is provided in the following

table:-

Adult Parole BoardChairman

DirectorGeneral of Social ,We~are

For matters involving male prisoners

For matters involving female prisoners

Youth ,Parole _ -Board

Chairman

Name

The -Honorable Mr. Justice John B. Starke

The Honorable Mr. Justice Esler H. Barber

Mr. A. -0. Booth, L.L.B.

Mr. Graham B. Ince

Mr. Hamish, Marhew, B.A., B.D., Dip. S.W.

Dr. Clyde C. -Fenton, O.B.B., M.B.B.S •• B.Sc.

Mrs. Phyllis I. Frost C.B.B.

Mrs. Gladys B. Brown

-Miss Kathleen Perrin, M.B.E.

His Honour Judge J. H. Forrest

His Honour Judge T. B. Shillito

Age

58

66

55

45

74

70

54

69

54

49

Trainingand/ or experience

Legal and judicial expertise


General experience in legal and social welfare field

Term of appointment

Not specified

Not specified

Continuous while Director-General of Social Welfare

Chairman, Prisoners -Period not exceeding Aid Society-long three years to 1st interest in prisoner July, 1972 rehabilitation prob-lems

Wide experience in field of crmunology and treatment of offenders in U.S.A .. New Zealand and Victoria Chief Probation and Parole Officer (1957-1962)

Considerable medical experience, Commonwealth Medical Officer (1949-1966)

Board member since 1957. Convenor of Fairlea Women's Council. Justice of the peace. Executive member Australian Foundation for Alcoholism and Drug

- Dependence. Bxecutive member Aus-tralian Crime Prevention and After-Care Council

Special magistrate, Children's Court. President,' Women's Justices Association. Studied penal institutions and parole systems overseas

Governor, Fairlea Prison until 1967. Studied criminal law. Ex-chairman, Women's Committee, Honorary Justices Association



Period not exceeding three years to 1st July, 1972

Period not exceeding three years to 1st July. 1972

Period not exceeding three years to lst July, 1972



No specified

Not specified

Method of Remuner-appointment ation

Nominated $1,000 per (with his con- annum sent) by Chief Justice of Supreme Court (pur-suant to sec-tions 521 and 523 of the Crimes Act)

Nominated $600 per (with his con- annum sent) by Chief Justice of Supreme Court (pur-suant to sec-tions 522 and 523 of the Crimes Act)

Pursuant to sec- 5750 per tion 521 of the annum Crimes Act

Appointed by Governor in Council





Nominated (with his his consent) by the Attorney-General

Nominated (with his consent) by the Attorney~ General

$1,200 per annum

$1,200 per annum

$1,200 per annum

$10,50per meeting attended

$10.50 per meeting attended

510:50 per meeting· attended

$1,000 per annum

$16.70 per meeting

attended

4484 Questions [ASSEMBLY.] on- Notice.

- Name Age Training. and/or Term of Method of Remuner-experience appointment appointment ation

Director- Mr. A. G. Booth, S5 General experience in Continuous while Pursuant to sec- $400 per General of LL.B. legal and social wel- Director-General tion 156 of the annum Social fare field of Social Welfare Social Welfare Welfare Act

For matters Mr. J. W. Johnson, S4 Extensive interest and Period not exceeding Appointed by $750 per involving M.B.E. experience working three years Governor in annum male with youth in Aust- Council trainees ralla and overseas

and prominent sport-ing figure

For matters Mrs. E. B. King. 65 General legal exper- Period not exceeding Appointed by $10.50 per involving C.B.E •• B.A .• ience. Member. Fam- three years Governor in meeting female LL.B. ily Welfare Ad- Council attended trainees visory Council. past-

president Legal Women of Victoria. Visited and reported on bomes for delin-quent girls in Canada. U.S.A .• and United Kingdom in 1957 and 1962

4. Cases are not personally presented, but listed for consideration as 'they fall due in regard for the terms of sentences involving minimum terms and remissions earned.

5. In the case of each board there is no delay.

6 and 7. The information required is provided in the following table:-

Board Year Cases Approved Refused To be further considered considered

Adult Parole Board .. 1968-69 1969-70 1970-71

Youth Parole Board .. 1968-69 1969-70 1970-71

8. The method by which board decisions are reached does not allow for the identifica tion of particular reasons.

9. The Adult Parole Board (male) meets

1,215 630 109 476 1,303 704 136 463 1,260 672 94 494

831 346 237 248 782 358 251 173 910 413 176 321

weekly. The Adult Parole Board (female) meets as required-approximately once each month. The Youth Parole Board meets every two weeks.

12. Fees and expenses of members and salaries of immediate full-time administrative staff. (Not including cost of stationery and other services unable to be dissected).

Adult Parole Board

Youth Parole Board

PRISONS DIVISION. MEDICO-PSYCHIATRIC ORGANIZATION

AT PENTRIDGE GAOL. (Question No. 906)

Mr. BORNSTEIN (Brunswick East). asked the Chief Secretary-

Whether, during 1970, a medical committee prepared a report for him regardina the

1968-69

$ 18,000

9,650

1969-70

$ 19,200

11,400

1970-71

$ 19,800

12,100

remodelling of the whole medico-psychiatric organization at Pentridge Gaol; if so-(a) when the report was presented to him; (b) who were the members of the committee; (c) what were the committee's recommendations; and (d) what action has been taken by the Government on the specific recommendations?



A committee of inquiry into prison medical services was formed in 1969 at the instigation of the Director-General of Social Welfare.

(a) The committee's report and recommendations were submitted to the UnderSecretary, Chief Secretary's Department, and to the Secretary, Department of Health, in June, 1970.

(b) The members of the committee were--

Mr. E. V. Shade, Director of Prisons ( convener) .

Dr. A. A. Bartholomew, Psychiatrist Superintendent at Pentridge Psychiatric Clinic.

Dr. D. J. Oldmeadow, Chief Medical Officer, Mental Health Authority.

Dr. W. N. Sloan, District Health Officer, Department of Health.

Dr. E. Wilder, Chief Medical Officer, Hospitals and Charities Commission.

(c) The committee's recommendations related to the number and qualifications of hospital attendants, the appointment of consultants, paramedical and full-time medical staff, the supply of drugs, the obtaining of a security ward and the appointment of registered nurses to Pentridge and the planning of a hospital at the prison.

(d) I understand that the recommendations of the committee are under consideration between the Department of Health and the Social Welfare Department.

VICTORIAN RAILWAYS. PROPOSED ULTRA-MODERN RAIL CAR.

(Question No. 997) Mr. TREZISE (Geelong North)

asked the Minister of Transport-1. What railway routes are under consid

eration for the proposed operation of the new ultra-modem rail car?

2. Whether the Geelong-Melboume rail route, if ultimately selected, is satisfactorily equipped to handle such a vehicle?

3. When a decision on the selected route can be expected?

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Transport) .-The answer is-

Several alternative routes are under consideration but no early decision will be made; the Geelong-Melbourne rail route is satisfactorily equipped to handle these vehicles.

SHUNTING OPERATIONS IN NORTH SHORE AREA.


Mr. TREZISE (Geelong North) asked the Minister of Transport-

Whether he will order an investigation into the noise nuisance caused to neighbouring residents by overnight rail shunting operations at the North Shore shunting area with a view to reducing the noise level?


An extensive siding network exists at North Shore adjacent to the Phosphate Cooperative superphosphate works.

The peak of the superphosphate traffic to the country occurs from approximately December to April, when substantial tonnages of superphosphate are despatched. The company during that period works from 7.30 a.m. to 2.00 a.m., some 250-300 wagons being loaded in that time.

To clear this daily out-loading, trains are scheduled to leave from 2.40 a.m. onwards. Considerable shunting is involved in making up the trains and some noise is unavoidable, but the staff concerned have been reminded of their instructions that noise be kept to the minimum.

CONCESSIONAL SLEEPER FARES FOR AGE PENSIONERS.


Mr. E. W. LEWIS (Dundas) asked the Minister of Transport-

Further to the answer to a question without notice asked on 15th March instant, whether he will seek agreement with Ministers of other States to allow age pensioner concession raJtes for sleeper accommodation on interstate train; if not, why?


The present arrangements are th'at pensioners are able to travel at half-fare rail concession between Melbourne and Sydney on all trains except the Southern Aurora.

As from 1st May a new half-fare rail concession will be available to pensioners for travel between Melbourne and Adelaide.

The agreement between the States -is that the concession applies for travel in sitting cars and it is not proposed to extend tt to sleeper accommodation.

These benefits are a generous approach by State Governments in the area of social services which is strictly the responsibility of the Commonwealth Government.

4486 . Questions [ASSEMBLY.] . o,f Notice~

GEELONG STATION: PASSENGERS: WAITING ROOM ACCOMMODATION.



1. What average number of railway passengers alight or depart from trains at ·the Geelong railway station on--( a) weekdays; and (b) week-ends?

2. W1l:at waiting room facilities are available ait the station?

3. What plans there are to improve or provide such accommodation facilities and when such work will be undertaken?

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Transport) .-The answers are-

1. (a) ~eek-days--alight, 1,030 average per day depart, 1,041 average per day

(b) Week-ends (Satulldays and Sundays combined)- .

alight, 839 average depart, 871 average

These figures represent the average traffic during normal traffic periods and not during holiday periods.

2. There is a ladies' waiting room at No·. 1 platform with toilet facilities, and the ticket booking area contains a small waiting room for people arranging bookings.

Reasonable shelter is given on the three 600-ft. long platforms which are roofed over for 75 per cent of their length.

3. Consideration is being given to utilizing part of the refreshment room facilities as a general waiting room.

Until plans are approved, it is not possible to indIcate when the work will be undertaken.

TOWN AND COUNTRY PLANNING BOARD.

REZONING OF AREA IN TOWN OF STAWELL. .


Mr. E. W. LEWIS (Dundas) asked the Minister of Tranport, for the Minister for Local Government-

1. What area fronting the Western Highway in the Town of Stawell was rezoned by the Town and Country Planning Board, in the past four years from heavy industry to light industry and then to residential use?

2. Whether this rezoning was done with th:e approval of the Stawell Town Council and the landowners concerned; if not, why?

. ·Mr.· WILCOX (Minister of Transport) .-The answers supplied by the Minister for Local. Government are-

'.

l. None in the circumstances mentioned. However. if the honorable member would advise details of the land in respect of which he is interested the Minister for Local Government will have the matter fully . investigated.

2. Nil.

EARTH-MOVING EQUIPMENT. SAFETY DEVICES.

Question No. 1,014) Mr. LOVEGROVE (Sunshine) asked

the Minister of Labour and Industry-Whether action has been taken to provide

safety devices for starting mechanisms on ear.th-moving equipmeIlit; if so, what action; if not, what action has been taken on the representations made last December by him, the member for Sunshine, on behalf of the City of Sunshine?

Mr. RAFFERTY (Minister of Labour and Industry).-The answer is-

In so far as any such equipment falls within the meaning of a crane under the Lifts and Cranes Act 1967, the owners are being required under that Act to fit ignition locks or other means of preventing un-al:lthorized use. .

However, the range of" equipment extends beyond what is subject to the Lifts and Cranes Act, or to· any other Act except the Motor Car Act when a vehicle is driven on a public highway. I have therefore requested that the Chief Commissioner of Police investigate and report on the wider issues, having regard to police records of instanceS of unauthorized u~e .of vehicles.

MELBOURNE AND METROPOLITAN BOARD OF WORKS.

EASTERN FREEWAY: FLOODING: DRAINAGE.


Mr. LOVEGROVE (Sunshine) asked the Minister of Transport, for the Minister for Local Government-

1. Whether the Minister is aware that, in February last, flooding occurred in Alex .. andra Parade, between Nicholson Street and the Hoddle Street works on the new free .. way, in the municipalities of Fitzroy and Collingwood?

2. What additional drainage was provided when the reconstructed portion of Alexandra Parade, Fitzroy, was designed?

[28 ,MARCH, 1972.] on ,Notice. 4487·

3. What additional drainage is planned ~efore the freeway is completed at the Col~ lingwood end of Alexandra Parade?

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Transport) .-The answers supplied by the Minister for Local Government are-

l. During the phenomenal storm which deluged the city and surrounding areas on 17th February last, there was flooding in ~e area concerned.

2. Two new 12-in. diameter inlets were provided into the main drain for the council.

3 .. Tpi~ matter is still under consideration.

GREEN BELT LEVY.

. (Question No. 1,086) Mr. KIRKWOOD (Preston) asked

the Minister of Tr-ansport, for the Minister for Local Government-

Whether the Minister's attention has been drawn to the proposal being considered by the, " ~elbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works to impose a "green belt" levy on properties near parklands; if so, what are the details o~ su~h proposal?

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Transport) . ...:....The Minister for Local G:ov .. ernment has supplied the following answer:-

There is no such proposal being considered by the Melbourne and Metropolitan Boarcl Of Works. '

MUNICIPALITIES. SUBSIDIES AND GRANTS FOR 'HISTORICAL

PARkS AND MUSEUMS.

(Question No. 1,019) Mr. R. S. L. McDONALD .(Rodney)

asked the Treasurer- ' l. What is the', basis on which subsidies or

grants are made available to Sovereign Hill Historical Park at Ballarat and Swan Hill Folk ~useun'l at Swan. Hill, 'respectively?

2. Whether any muriicip~litY can seek s\lbsidies -and grants ~on the same basis?

.. SirH:ENRY BOLTE (Premier· and ',Treasurer) ;-Th~, a~swers, are-.' l. Grants towards the 'capital cost of these projects have be,en ~ade available on a $2 Goverriment for $1 local contribution sub· ject to a maximum Government contribution of $300,000 'in' each cas'e.' -Payments 'have been made. to the municipal, councils concerned on condition that the councils take an active interest in the planning and con" struction of' the respective projects in the general commu~ity interes~. It is also :~ condition of, the grant' in each case that tb&'

Government will not be involved in any way with future operating and maintenance costs, the responsIbility for which must remain in the last' resort with the municipal council concerned.

2. While the Government has had a firm and long-standing policy of supporting municlpalities with projects of an historical nature in country areas Ithere has, to date, been no established basis of assistance, and the Government has been prepared to look at each case on its merits.

Over recent times there has been an increasing interest by country municipalities in the development of projects of this nature and proposals already before th.e Government and under consideration by councils could involve substantial sums both in capital cost and in operating and maintenance expenditure.

This situation has led the Government, to the view that the time has' come when, there is a need to give councils a clear indica,tion of ,what assistance may be available .for projects in this field in order to give them certainty in their preliminary consideration of these proposals. It is also necessary tQ examine more closely th~ justification for and the financial viability of these projects and the capacity of the -local community concerned to contribute capital funds and to undertake the responsibility for meeting all future operating and maintenance costs. Accordingly, it is' proposed to set up an inter-departmental committee tO'investigate and to make recommendations, to the Goy~ ernment concerning possible future policy in' this field and to indicate priorities for projects to be assisted having regard to their historical significance and their PQtential as tourist attractions.

WANNON SHIRE: TRANSFER OF LANtl TO CR0:WN.

(Question No., 1,075) .

.Mr. E. W. LEWIS' (Dundas) aske4 the Minister of Lands-, .

Whether the Wannon shire was charged $487 survey fee to transfer 6' acres of land to the Crown; if so, why,,' and what price the Crown paid for ~he land?

Mr. BO~THWICK' (Minister ,of Lands) .-The answer is-

The honorable member apparently refers to a transaction initiated by' the Wannon Shire Council with the Department- of Crown Lands and Survey Whereby an area of Crqwn land at B,almoral, ,about 41 acres, ,together with freehold 'land, 1!- ~,cr~s, which th~ council agreed to surrender to the Crown; be' 'reserved for a. swimming, pool .. and associated purposes;.

The survey' was' necessary to define' 'the boundaries of the, land and was effected' by, the' departinent' in, :.19·69.~" ::Tl1e'~c61m'cil:.'has


been requested to pay a fee of $487 for the work, which is comparable with the charge which would be made by a surveyor in private practice.

It is not the practice for purchase money to be paid to the Crown for surrenders of freehold land in circumstances such as this. The Crown land is being provided for local benefit free of cost.

MINES DEPARTMENT. ARTHUR'S SEAT AREA: EXTRACTIVE

INDUSTRIES.


Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows) asked the Attorney-General, for the Minister of Mines-

Whether the Minister will arrange for a complete ecological and natural history survey to be undertaken of the Arthur's Seat area, incorporating a complete survey and evaluation of stone available in the Westernport and Arthur's Seat areas, with a view to providing an over-all plan for the siting of extractive industries in those areas; if so, whether he will take action to prohibit the extensions of quarrying in the Arthur's Seat escarpment or Westernport area until the completion of the survey and plan?

Mr. REID (Attomey-General).On behalf of the Minister of Mines, the answer is-

The area involved falls within the jurisdiction of the Westernport Regional Planning Authority and in considering matters relating to land usage the authority will have regard to such matters as natural history and ecological aspects.

In so far as surveys for extractive industry substances are concerned the position is that the Mines Department has been engaged in the search for suitable hard rock depOSits in the region. This search included site examination and test drilling and laboratory analyses. In addition the area has been adequately covered by detailed geological maps for many years.

Recently detailed surveys have been made and reports prepared on the aggregate resources of the Shire of Flinders, particularly the scenic and the Splitter's Creek areas. Copies of these reports were made available to the Town and Country Planning Board. A more detailed survey for sand, clay and hard rock deposits is scheduled to commence in the region as soon as prior commitments permit.

A prerequisite for the extension of existing quarries in the area is the grant of a permit by the responsible authority under the Town and Country Planning Act. So far as the Arthur's Seat quarry is concerned the deter-

mination of an application for a permit is the dual responsibility of both the Shire of Flinders and the Westernport Regional Planning Authority.

TOTALIZATOR AGENCY BOARD. INCOME: GOVERNMENT REVENUE:

DISTRIBUTION TO CLUBS.

(Question No. 1,027) Mr. MUTTON (Coburg) asked the

Treasurer-1. What was the total income of the

Totalizator Agency Board in each of the past three financial years?

2. What revenue was received by the Government from Totalizator Agency Board operations and betting taxes, respectively, in each of the past three financial years?

3. What amount was distributed to racing clubs in each of those years, what clubs benefited, and what amount was received by each club?

Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and 'foreasurer) .-The answers are-

1. On the assumption that the honorable member has in mind gross income and that those elements of the revenue of the Totalizator Agency Board which could be defined as "income" are the income received by the board from totalizator investments, dividends not paid after six months (including the amounts transferred to reserve) together with miscellaneous income, the following was the total income of the board in each of the past three financial years:-

1968-69 1969-70 197~71

2. 1968-69

$ 15,153,514 17,488,720 19,934,347

Totalizator Agency Board Betting taxes·

$ 9,889,431 6,881,384

Total 16,770,815

1969-70 Totalizator Agency Board 10,905,693 Betting taxes· 8,107,091

Total 19,012,784

197~71 Totalizator Agency Board 12,258,436 Betting taxes· 8,631,529

Total 20,889,965

• U Betting taxes " consist of revenue from on-course operations, fractions, unclaimed dividends, bookmakers certificates, etc., turnover tax, and betting tickets.

3. I assume that the honorable member is referring to the distribution of available fi,mds from the Totalizator Agency Board.


The distribution in each of the past three years was as follows :-

- 1969 1970 1971

$ $ $

Administration costs (Victoria Racing Club) .. 674,716 672,137 776,637 Victoria Racing Club .. .. .. 825,148 842,294 893,210 MooneeValley Racing Club .. .. .. 584,711 554,681 588,212 Victoria Amateur Turf Club (incorporating M.R.C.) 1,036,940 1,088,818 1,154,638 Special non-totalizator fund .. .. .. 92,663 .. " Apsley Racing Club .. .. .. .. 932 1,316 1,477 Ararat Turf Club .. .. .. .. 6,479 12,811 14,376 Avoca Shire Turf Club .. .. .. 512 839 2,172 Bacchus Marsh Racing Club .. · . .. 6,255 .. .. Bacchus Marsh St. Patricks Racing Club .. 1,473 1,550 1,983 Bairnsdale Hibernian Racing Club .. .. 841 1,261 1,387 Bairnsdale Racing Club .. .. .. 4,898 8,385 8,832 BalIan Jockey Club .. .. .. .. 5,819 8,191 10,347 Ballarat Turf Club .. .. . . .. 123,710 135,401 132,889 Benalla Racing Club .. .. .. 9,676 17,494 19,658 Benalla St. Patricks Racing Club .. .. 1,023 1,542 1,713 Bendigo Jockey Club .. .. .. 105,239 118,434 124,119 Burrumbeet Park and Windermere Racing Club 1,133 1,923 1,912 Camperdown Turf Club .. .. .. 7,197 9,393 11,771 Casterton Racing Club .. · . .. 9,013 11,082 11,952 Chiltern Racing Club .. .. .. 3,746 6,004 7,659 Chiltern St. Patricks Racing Club .. .. 603 998 1,260 Cobden Turf Club .. 00 o. .. 1,882 2,676 3,100 Colac Turf Club .. .. .. .. 40,207 43,648 42,080 Coleraine Racing Club .. .. .. 9,959 12,731 14,580 Cranbourne Turf Club .. .. 86,019 99,908 103,483 Donald and District Jockey Club .. .. 3,929 6,839 12,009 Dunkeld Racing Club .. .. .. 676 952 1,142 Echuca Racing Club .. .. .. 3,746 5,419 7,600 Edenhope Racing Club "

., . , 2,303 4,108 4,413 Elmore Racing Club .,

" " 1,517 4,218 5,427 Garvoc Racing Club " " " 950 1,360 1,428 Geelong Racing Club , , "

., 96,064 98,861 105,951 Geelong St. Patricks Racing Club . , , . 3,753 4,605 4,904 Goulburn Valley Turf Club ,. ,. " 4,423 7,555 9,741 Great Western Race Club " · . " 804 1,258 1,390 Gunbower Race Club " .. ., 896 1,270 1,639 Hamilton Racing Club " " " 27,383 33,437 33,285 Hampden Racing Club " " " 877 1,238 1,428 Hanging Rock Racing Club . , , . ,. 4,404 5,837 3,379 Heathcote Racing Club .. " " 4,641 .,

" Horsham District Racing Club ,. ,. 3,838 10,350 11,987 Kaniva Racing Club" ,. .. .. 1,316 2,032 2,480 Kerang Turf Club ., " "

., 3,545 5,551 5,760 Kilmore St. Patricks Race Club ,. .. 2,173 2,477 2,909 Kilmore Turf Club .. ,. ., 25,172 32,976 33,693 Koroit Racing Club .. .. .. .. 1,974 2,839 2,898 Kyneton District Racing Club ,. .. 71,954 74,757 74,733 Lake Bolac Race Club ,. .. .. 786 1,272 1,412 Lockhart Racing Club .. , . .. 640 936 1,480 Macarthur Racing Club "

,. " 895 .. Manangatang Racing Club . , .. , . 1,462 2,136 2,092 Mansfield District Racing Club ,. .. 3,344 4,921 4,112 Marma Turf Club .. .. " " 804 1,152 1,251 Marong Racing Club .,

" ., 3,303 5,652 6,542

Mildura Racing Club ., "

,. 7,438 14,865 14,794 Minyip Turf Club .. , . ,. ,. 877 .. .. Moe Racing Club .. .. , . .. 50,440 62,167 68,097 Mornington Racing Club "

,. ,. 97,017 99,864 102,215 Mortlake Racing Club .. " .. 2,814 4,009 3,820 Mt. Wycheproof District Racing Club .. 1,297 1,841 2,160 Murtoa Racing Club., ,. " .. 4,532 7,374 10,396 Nhill Race Club .. , . .,

" 1,736 3,688 4,785 Pakenham Racing Club .. " " 87,516 98,743 102,995 Penshurst and District Racing Club "

., 3,490 9,023 9,661

4490 Questions [ASSEMBLY.] on ·Notice.·

Purnim Racing Club Quambatook Racing Club Rochester Jockey Club. Rosedale Racing Club St. Arnaud Turf Club Sale Turf Club Seymour Racing Club Sheep Hills Turf Club .. South Gippsland Racing Club Stawell Amateur Turf Club .. Swan Hill Jockey Club Swan Hill St. Patricks Race Club Tatura Turf Club Terang Racing Club .. Towong Turf Club Traralgon Racing Club Trentham Racing Club Wangaratta St. Patricks Race Club Wangaratta Turf Club Warracknabeal Turf Club Warmambool Racing Club Watchem-Birchip District Race Club Werribee Racing Club Wodonga Turf Club. . . . . . Wodonga· St. Patricks Race Club Woodend Race Club .. Woodford Race Club Yarra Glen Racing Club

Totals

. DECENTRALIZAT.ION. EsTABLISHMENT OF

COUNTRY AREAS: CAMPAIGN.

INDUSTRIES IN DOOR-KNOCK


Mr. W. J. LEWIS (Portland) asked the Attorney-General, for the Mipister. for State Development-.

1. . What steps have· been taken by the Minister to establish industries in 'country areas? . -

2. What were the results of the. c~ door- . knock" campaign .which the . Minister' instigated in the metropolitan area to ask companies or industries to· establish in country areas?

3. What is the cost of the ," door-knock " campai~n to date?

Mr ... · REID (Attorney-General).The answers supplied by the Minister for'. State Develop~e~nt are- "

1. Initially, :the. Go:vernme~t has. established .a new department to deal with any matters which could' result in the development of the State. . One of the divisions within .' th~ department< is the Division of Industrial Development.

1969

$

1,151 768

3,253 1,407 3,253

37,359 55,994

859 6,890 5,272

15,514 ·895

2,284 6,409 3,088

14,102 1,256 ·676

13,253 4,642

58,855 3,618

88,265 3,819

640 15,679

1,334 80,731

4,606,789

1970

$

1,946 966

4,889

6,172 40,363 62,779

1,254 11,984 12,368 19,832

1,406 5,252 8,984 4,744

28,691 1,921 1,587

21,459 7,312

58,385 4,807

.108,500 6,703

998 20,906

1,669 55,910·

4,780,886

1971

$

1,725 1~260 ·4,711·

(i~719 45,352 61,990

1,303 12,536 . 14,964 21,400

1,344 6,843

13,881' '8,227

37,031 2,287 1,679

24,680 8,5"31

56,440 2,014

117,343 7,793 1,009

22,358 1,679 .

55,200

5,133,'7~0

" The .. division· services the Ballarat, · Bendigo,. Portland, Wodonga and L.atrobe· Valley development committees through' its, promotion officers. It conducts publicity,

· campaigns and subsidizes industrial· · brochures. . The division is available to assist" . and"

· advise industrialists on ·any matter pertain-: · ing to development in Victoria and' will · liaise with all Government 'departments and' instrumentalities to ensure that aU the resources of the State are made known' to interested parties. .,._,

:' The incentives and" concessions' .sheet" · published by the division indicates. the, · various. avenu~s. of assistance which .are: availabl~ to encourage the estabiishment of secondary industries in country ~reas.The·

· information incorporated in thi,s sheet is set out at tbe end of this an1?wer; . . In addition where an industrialist

· indicates a need for special assistance~ this is always given consideration'· and the

· division' will treat every request on': its, · merits. . '

2. The IC door-knock" campaign is.' now: · regarded as part· of the day-to-day' actiyi1;~es' · of the division.. It is acontin~ing campaign · and to date approximately 1,200 firms. have. · been contacted. Just over~400· follo:w~up' · discussions have ··tak-en place:- StatisticS' on·

Question$ [28 MARCH, 1972.] on' Notice. 4491

the results of these follow-up discussions are being maintained and at this stage it is .expected that the information obtained will be collated and included in the division's annual report, which pursuant to the provisions of the State .Development Act No .. 8081, the division is now required to present to Parliament. \ So far, three firms have commenced operations in country centres as a result of the campaign and several others are still at the negotiating stage.

3. Being part of the day-to-day operations of the division, no specific costs have been kept. However, 20,000 brochures were printed specifically for the campaign at a cost of $700.

The incentives 'and concessions sheet to which reference is made in the answer to part 1 of the question is as follows:-

CONCESSIONS AVAILABLE TO COUNTRY SECONDARY INDUSTRIES.

Assistance is available to secondary industries outside a radius of 50 miles from Melbourne or Within 'a 5-mile radius of Bacchus Marsh, Broadford, Gisborne, Kilmore, Kyneton or Woodend.

Additionally, five provincial centres, namely -Ballarat, Bendigo, the Latrobe Valley, Portland and Wooonga, have been chosen fO.r -special consideration in the application of these incentives. These places are receiving particular attention in order to create ·centres in which most, if not a'll, the facilities and services 'Of a large metropolis are available. The inoentives include: Finance:

The Rural Financea'nd Settlement Commission will consider applications for .loans frqm either new or existing secondary industries. Loans may be made for· periods up to ten or even .fif.t~~ years at intereSit _ rates slightly below bank overdraft rates. .

The commission generally looks for priority of security as a long-term

,lender. 'However, the availabiUty of finance

from the commission should not be construed as a source of finance to replace traditional avenues of borrowing.

The Division 'Of lridustrial Development, through the Minister for State Development, may r~ommend financial assistance from the Industrial Development Fund for a new or expanding industrY.

·Land -and buildings: Municipal councils are empowered to

provide land and/or factory or commercial premises on a lease, rental or lease-cum-purchase basis. Usual commercial requirements regarding security prevail and agreements between the parties require the approval of the Minister for State Development.

Housing and residential sites: The Housing Commission will grant

priority in housing--on a rental basis only-for key employees required for new or expanding industries. Employees meeting the commission's standard requirements as to family and income may purchase commission homes.

·Municipal councils have the authority to construct houses for approved industries.

Where available, Crown land may be provided at reasonable cost for residential sites.

Housing finance on suitable terms and ~onditions of repayment can be facilItated through the Registtar of Cooperative Housing Societies, the State Government's Home Finance Trust, or permanent building societies.

Transport: Road. Decentralized secondary in

dustries approved by the Minister for State Development 'are issued with special licences to facilitate road haulage of raw materials and finished products provided the industry utilizes its own vehicles.

For those industries preferring to engage hire and reward carriers, the Transport Regulation Board can, after takjng into consideration any disadvantages suffered by a country industry, including cost and convenience of the available forms of transport issue appropriate licences which allow much the same degree of road freedom as a manufacturer operating his own vehicles. -

Rail. Subsidies from the Industrial Development Fund, for movements by rail of raw materials and finished products, are negotiated through the Division of Industrial Development in favour of any new or expanding U two-way freighting" industry with a 'net loeational disability. This is interpreted to be the difference between freight, cartage and other costs incurred by a country factory compared with an identical or a hypothetical competitor in the metropolitan area.

Alternatively, approved decentralized secondary industries choosing to use rail transport instead of road are automatically awarded by the Railway Department a reduction of approximately 10 per cent of the published freight charges.

The Railways Commissioners grant further rail concessions on freight charges to certain specified country industries, whether approved decentralized secondary industries or otherwise covering a wide variety of raw material~ and products. These reductions range from 26! per cent to 66 per cent on raw materials and 15 per cent to 58


per cent on manufactured products. Approved decentralized secondary industries receive these reductions after the application of the standard 10 per cent concession.

Transfer of land and machinery: Reimbursement may be made of the

whole or part of the haulage cost of transporting machinery from Melbourne to a new or expanding industry.

Usually this is restricted to carriage by rail and only available to new industries or existing undertakings involved in expansion programmes resulting in an increase in their workforces.

Transfer of personnel: A grant of up to $50 per family

towards the cost of transferring furniture and effects of key personnel from Melbourne may be made to a new or expanding industry.

Land: Crown land, where available, may be

procured at reasonable cost for the establishment or expansion of industries.

·Some municipal councils will provide industrial land for little or no financial consideration.

Energy: Electricity. Victoria is the only Aus

tralian mainland State where electricity tariffs in non-metropolitan areas are the same as in the capital city. The State Electricity Commission is prepared to enter into negotiation regarding special supply contracts for loads of particularly high magnitude-approximately 50 Mw and above-and/or which are capable of periodic interruption by the commission to suit the economic requirements of the supply system.

Gas. Where natural gas is piped by the Gas and Fuel Corporation (a Government instrumentality) to decentralized areas, tariffs are comparable with those obtaining in the Melbourne metropolitan area.

Industries requiring large quantities of gas may negotiate special contracts with the corporation.

In decentralized areas, not under the jurisdiction of the corporation, tempered liquefied petroleum gas-or L.P.G.-is usually available at competitive rates. Where a new or expanding industry in these latter areas can substantiate an adverse tariff differential in relation to ~ompetitors in the Melbourne metropolitan area, the Division of Industrial Development will examine the total manufacturing or processing operations involved with a view to recommending a subsidy from the Industrial Development Fund.

·Local taxes: Municipal councils may negotiate tax

(rates) concessions. These are usually available only to new industries and for a determined period.

Site access roads: Providing normal avenues of finance

are unavailable to a municipal council, it may be subsidized on a $2 (Government) : $1 (council) basis for the construction of access roads to a new or expanding industrial site.

Road construction is normally provided by the subdivider and assistance of this type will only be available in exceptional circumstances.

Transport of employees: Chartered bus services to bring

employees from outlying areas to a new or expanding industry may be subsidized. The cost is usually apportioned on the basis of one-third each from the employee, tpe employer and the Government.

• May also be negotiated in all other places within the 50-mile radius of Mel~ bourne but which are outside the Melbourne and metropolitan area as defined in the Town and Country Planning Act.

GRANTS TO PRIVATE INDUSTRIES.

(Question No. 1,052) Mr. KIRKWOOD (Preston) asked

the Treasurer-What moneys in the form of direct grants

have been made to priV'ate industries for assistance to eLther establish works or continue operation outside the Melbourne metropolitan larea during each of the past five years?

Sir HENRY BOLTE (premier and Treasurer).-The answer is-

The follOwing direct g~anlts have been made from the Industrial Development Fund to pr.ivate industries to either establish works or ·continue operations outside the Melbourne, metropolitan 'area in each of the past five financial years:- " "

1966-67 1967-68 1968-69 1969-70 1970-71

$ 129,234 160,111. 176,538 199,996 191,221

UNEMPLOYMENT. COMMONWEALTH GRANTS TO'

MUNICIPALITIES.


asked the Treasurer-1. What finance has b'een allocated ·at

this stage to Victorian municipalities under the Commonwealth rural unemployment


relief scheme since the amounts indicated in the answer given .to question No. 851 on Wednesday, 8th March, 1972?

2. How many unapproved requests are still to be considered?

3. What is the over-all 'amount expected to be provided?

Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer).-The answers are-

1. Since 8th March, I have 'approved 'a further schedule covering allocations of $494,290 to municipalities. Detaals of these allocations 'are aV'ailable in the Parliamentary Library.

2. The steering committee is holding a considerable number of requests for further allooations for cons:ider'ation in the light of its regular reviews of the employment position throughout the State in consultation with the Commonwealth Department of Labour and National Service. Municipalities have been requested to submit l:ists of possible works well in advance of allocations being made.

3. By the end of the current finandal year, it is expected that $2· 5 million will have been allocated to municipalities under the Commonwealth rural unemployment scheme.

ApPLICATIONS FOR RELIEF FUNDS BY STAWELL SHIRE.


Mr. E. W. LEWIS (Dundas) asked the Treasurer-

Whether assistance has been sought by the Stawell shire for rural unemployment rel:ief funds to assist wi,th the huilding of Hall's Gap swimming pool; ,if so, what laction is being taken 'concerning this request?

Sir H,ENRY BOLTE (Premier and Tr~asurer).-The answer is-

Yes. This request is currently under consideration by the steering committee.

(Question No. 1,068) Mr.E. W. LEWIS (Dundas) asked

the Treasurer-Whether the Stawell shire has requested

rural unemployment relief funds to enable

Locations

construction of a road around Lake Fyans; if so, whether ,this will be granted, if not, why?

Sir H,ENRY BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer).-The answer is-

Yes. This 'application is currently u,nder consideration by the steering commIttee. However, las a general rule construction ?f roads is not recommended by the commlttee for rural unemployment relief funds because of the low direct labour content 'involved.

ROAD SAFETY AND TRAFFIC AUTHORITY.

TRAFFIC LIGHTS AT NORTH GEELONG.



Whether it is planned to retain the recently-installed traffic lights at the Bell Parade and Melbourne Road intersection, North Geelong, on a permanent basis?


The recently-installed temporary traffic lights are being used to control traffic during the construction of the highway between Separation Street and Bell Parade.

On completion of the construction, signals will be installed in a permanent position at the intersection.


Mr. TREZISE (Geelong North) asked the Chief Secretary-

1. What applications have been lodged for the provision of traffic light facilities in the electoral district of Geelong North?

2. What are the expected dates when such lights will be installed in each case?


1 and 2. The Road Safety and Traffic Authority has received applications for s-ignals at the following intersections within the electoral district of Geelong North:-

Expected completion dates

Princes Highway West /Victoria Street

Prillct(s Highway West/Bell Parade

Aberdeen Street /pakington Street

Princes Highway /Refinery' Road " ' Midland Highway /Thompsons Road

I

Early, 1973 as part : of the Country Roads Board proJect.

Final installation will take place on completion of the Country Roads Board project.

The date of installation is a matter for the City of Newtown and Chilwell.

This application is, at present being investigated. This application is at present being investigated.

4494 " Questions [ASSEMBLY.] . on~ Notice. :.

POLICE DEPARTMENT. RECAPTURE OF WANDERING

LIVESTOCK.


Mr. E. W. LEWIS (Dundas) asked the Chief Secretary-

What responsibility the Police Force has to recapture livestock at liberty in public places within urban areas? .


No statutory responsibility is imposed on police to recapture wandering livestock in urban or other areas and 'they have no power to impound such stock.

Where livestock wandering in 'a public place do not constitute a danger to the public, police are instructed to have them disposed of pursuant to the provisions of the Pounds Act 1958 by calling the appropriate officer of the local municipal authority or, in the case of State highways, etc., the 'appropriate officer of the Country Roads Board.

In the case of livestock wandering on busy' roads, which constitutes ·a danger to the public, particularly 'at night, or animals which have escaped from a transport vehicle, police t,ake immediate action to secure or recapture the ;animals, ·as the case may be, as part· of their function . of providing protection for the public.

DEPARTMENT OF LABOUR AND INDUSTRY.

AWARD RATES FOR' Bus DRIVERS: BREACHES OF DETERMINATIONS.


Mr. E. W. LEWIS (Dundas) asked the Minister of Labour and Industry-

Whether ·any breaches of wages board determinations 'Concerning wage rates for bus drivers have been reported to the Department of Labour 'and Industry in respect of school bus operators with contracts at Hamilton and Warrnambool, respectively; if so-(a) what were the reported breaches and (b) what action has peen taken by the department?

Mr. RAFFERTY (Minister of Labour and Industry).-The answer is-

A compl'aint was lodged by the Motor Transport ,and Chauffeurs Association late last year on behalf of members employed

by a school bus operatoi' at Warmarilbool and ·CamperdoWn.· That matter has now been settled to the' s'atisfaction of the association. A se~rch of the department's records has not revealed any current· complaint concerning the employment of school bus drivers in this area.

LEVEL CROSSINGS. PRIORITIES FOR GRADE SEPARATION

PROJECTS: KOOYONG CROSSING.


Mr. JONA (Hawthorn) asked the Mini~ter of Transport-

1. Whether the Abolition of Level Crossings Committee has a works priority list; .if so, what are the criteria for determining the orders of priority for grade separation projects'? .

2. Whether the committee has given consideration to the abolition of the Kooyong rail crossing at Glenferrie Road; if, so, when grade separation will be undertaken at this location?

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Transport) .-The answers are-

It is the practice for the Abolition of Level Crossings Committee to. submit for the approval of the Government a works programme each financial year, and the projects included are those with the highest priorities at that particular time.

1. The main factors whlch determiile the priority order of level . crossing abolition projects are-

(i) volume of road traffic; (ii) volume of rail traffic; (iii) the· delays that are caused to road

~raffic;

(iv) the safety record of the crossing and type of protection provided;

. and

(v) the cost of the project.' ,. 2. Consideration has been given. by the committee' to the abolition of the Glenferrie Road crossing at ,Kooyong, but the priority of this crossing is low and no indication can be given as to when the work will be undertaken. .

TELEVISION. CONTENT OF CHANNEL 0

PROGRAMME.


Mr. BROAD (Swan Hill) asked the Chief Secretary-

Whether he has received complaints concernin~ alleged vulgarity in the content of televiSIOn programme II No. 96" broad-

Questions [28 MARCH, .1972.] on Notice. 4495'

cast from Channel 0, M~lboume; if so, "in view of the programme's prime viewing ti!lle of 8.30 p.m., what action he proposes takmg on these complaints? "

Mr. HAMER (Chief -Secretary).The answer is-

Yes ... The control of television is a, Commonwealth responsibility and therefore such complaints have been referred to th'e Australian Broadcasting Control Board.

PUBLIC WORKS DEPARTMENT. CONSTRUCTION PROJECTS IN COUNTRY

. DISTRICTS: TENDERS.

(Question No. 1,063) .

Mr. BROAD (Swan Hill) asked the Minister of Labour and Industry, for the Minister of Public Works-. 1., Whether the Public Works Department

calls tenders for . construction jobs in' country districts by advertisement in a local 'newspaper; if not, why? , ' , 2 .. In which newspapers the department

customarily advertises when inviting tende~s?

Mr.' RAFFERTY (Minister of Labour and Industry) .-The answer supplied by the Minister of Public Works is-

The information sought by' the honorable member has been supplied by letter dated 22nd 'March, 1972, in reply to his letter of 7th March, 1972.

REBUILDING OF 'PRESTON COURT HOUSE.:.

, '. (Question No~ -1;085)

M~.KIRKWOOD (P~e~ton) asked the Minister of Labour and Industry, for the Minister cjf Public Works-

When tenders will be called for the r.eb~ilding . of Preston court house and what is the' estimated 'cost?, '

PRINCESS MARGARET ROSE CAVES RESERVE.

ELECTRICITY SUPPLY.

, (Question No. 1,066) Mr. W. J. LEWIS· (portland) asked

the Minister for Fuel and Power-1. Whether he is aware that the Forests

Commission employee who is managing the Pr:incess Margaret Rose, Caves Reserve is, working under difficulties beclaus,e of lack of electricity?

2. Whether he can now indicate when power will be provided at the reserve? ,

Mr. BALFOUR (Minister for Fuel and Power).-The answer is-

In 'answer to a question asked by the honorable member on this subject l'ast year, I stated that the State Electricity Commis-.. sion was negotiating With the Electricity Trust of South Australia ,to see if the trust could provide supply to the caves. . Un,: fortunately, it is not practicabl~ for the trust to provide this supply.

The commission has again investigated the possibility of an extension from its reticulation at Nelson. Such an extension would require 'the erection of 41 miles .of' single wire earth return high voltage .Iip,e, together with sub-stations, ,services and meters. lit also would enable supply to 'be given to 'a local' resident, Mr. L. Bond.

The work is estimated to cost about $12,160 and the commission has forwarded to the Forests Commission ,a propos,a! for financing the extension. Fu~ther progress will depend on the outcome of negotiations for the provision of finance. , As, I mentioned previously, there is at

present a 240-volt generator supplying the caretaker's residence and 'a 32-volt generator' providing .lighting for the caves, so that the area is not entirely without electricity supply.

EDUC~TION DEPARTMENT •. HOUSING FOR MARRIED TEACHERS AT

COUNTRY SCHOOLS.


Mr. W. J. LEWIS (portland). asked the Minister of Education-

1. How many married teachers at countrY scho.o,1s, are. living in Education, Department houses? . " ' . ,

2. flow many teachers have refused trans-' fers to country schools because of the diffi

It is anticipated that contract documents culty of securing suitable ht:)Usi~g?.- ., . " will be prepared and tenders invited Mr. THOMPSON (Minister of

Mr. RAFFERrY (Minister of Labour' and Industry).-The Minister of 'Public Works has supplied. the' following answer:-

appro:x;i~at~ly in Sept~mber of this year. Educatio.n).-The answers a~e~ !

It is not the practice ,of the department to 'I. 'The Teacher Housing Au~hority has divulge estimated costs which would· be of , 1.,673 residences in country areas. The vast assistance to contractors when submitting majority. of them .are .occupied" by" married tenders:'· '. . .. , teachers. '...' ..

4496, Questions [ASSEMBLY.] on Notice.

2. One teacher with the Technical Schools Division has declined a country appointment because of housing difficulties. There were no similar incidents with the primary or secondary appoinitmen'ts this year.

STUDENTS' CLOTHING.


Mr. DOUBE (Albert Park) asked the Minister of Education-

Whether there are any State secondary schools where students are permitted to wear to school clothes of their own choosing and not school uniforms; if so, what are the names and locations of these schools?

Mr. THOMPSON (Minister of Education).-The answer is-

No high schools have indicated that they are following such a policy.

TEACHERS' RESIDENCES FOR SCHOOLS IN DUNDAS ELECTORATE.



Whether any schools in the electoral district of Dundas have requested that teachers' residences be purchased or erected; if so, which schools, indicating their location, and when such 'residences will be purchased or erected?

Mr. THOMPSON (Minister of Education).-The answer is-

Priorities have been established by the departmental Residen'ce Selection Committee for the provision of residences at the following schools in the electoral district of Dundas:-

School No. of residences H.S. Balmoral 2 116 Cavendish 1 H.S. Edenhope 1 Con. Goroke Women teachers' flats 4847 Hamilton 1 H.S. Hamilrton 1 T.S. Hamilton 1 T.S. Stawell 1

One residence for T.S. StaweU and one'for H.S. Edenhope have been purchased by the' Teacher Housing Authority.

Ballarat Teachers College

The Teacher Housing Authority is to renovate the existing Cavendish residence and work will commence on this project very shortly.

It is intended to erect suiltable houses attached to H.S. Balmoral and Cons. Goroke as part of the authority's building programme which is expected rto commence before the end of this financial year.

The Teacher Housing Authority is endeavouring to purchas'e a house for H.S. Hamil ton and such purchase will be effected as soon as a suitable property comes onto 'the market.

It is not expected that houses for 4847 Hamilton and T.S. Hamilton will be provided during the current financial year.

TEACHERS' COLLEGES: FEES.


Mr. DOUBE (Albert Park) asked the Minister of Education-

1. What total fees, excluding student representative council fees, are levied by eac!l of the teachers' colleges in Victoria?

2. What amounts are levied by each college for each subject taught and what other fees are charged by each college (excluding student representative council fees)?

3. What are the main purposes to which such funds are put?

4. Whether any of the colleges use the money to hire clerical staff, college aides, maintenance or grounds staff on a full or part-time basis?

5. Whether any students have refused to pay the fees; if so, at which colleges and how many students at each such college have refused to pay?

6. What action the Education Department proposes taking against students who refuse to pay fees?

7. Whether it is the intention of' the Government to abolish fees for' bonded students?

8. Whether trainee teachers who attend universities have to pay the university any fees other than student representative council fees?

Mr. THOMPSON (Minister' of Education) .-The answers to parts 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 of fue question are-

1. lst year Diploma of Teaching (primary) 2nd year Diploma of Teaching (primary) 3rd year Diploma of Teaching (primary) 2nd year Trained Primary Teacher's Certificate lst and 2nd year Secondary Art and Crafts

$ C' 48.00 45.50 48.50 46.00 20.25


2 and 3.

D.T. (P) 1 2 3 T.P.T.C.2 S.A.C. 1 -

$ C

Education .. .. .. . . 0.50 English .. .. .. .. 1.00 Art .. .. .. . . 3.00 Mathematics .. .. . . 2.00 Music .. .. .. .. 3.00 Physical education .. .. . . 1.00 Science .. .. .. . . 6.00 Social science .. ..

'} 1.00

Library .. .. .. 7.00 Audio visual media .. Graduation .. .. .. .. 5.00 Miscellaneous .. .. .. 3.00 Locker and hostel deposits .. .. 3.00 Service charge .. .. .. 6.00 General college charge .. .. 6.50

4 and 5.-No. Bendigo Teachers Col/ege

1. 1st year Diploma of Teaching (Primary) 2nd year Diploma of Teaching (Primary) 3rd year Diploma of Teaching (Primary) 2nd year Trained Primary Teacher's Certificate

$ C

0.50 1.00 6.00 2.00 3.00 1.00 8.00 1.00 7.00

.. 3.00 3.00 6.00 4.00

• Including $30 camp fee-Physical education.

$ C $ C

0.50 0.50 1.00 1.00 8.00 6.00 3.00 2.00 3.00 3.00 1.00 1.00 8.00 6.00 1.00 1.00 7.00 7.00

.. . . 3.00 3.00 3.00 3.00 6.00 6.00 4.00 6.50

2. Subject fees vary from $1 to $6 per Burwood Teachers College

and 2

$ c

0.50 1.00 3.00 ., . . .. .. .,

1.75

. . 1.00 3.00 3.50 6.50

$

75· 35 32 33

subject, other fees include library fee $6. 1. Burwood does not charge fees; it levies charges which are as follows:-

1st year students .. $53 2nd year students.. $40 3rd year students .. $40

General service fee $10.

Camp fee (year 1 D.T. (P) only) $30.

3. Subject fee-pool books, hand-outs, etc. 2. Burwood does not levy charges for Library fee-books to supplement particular subjects. An allocation on the

basis of needs is made to each department library stock. out of the levies given in 1, above; i.e.

General service fee-general mainten-ance of grounds Yeu and college.

-administration. -special equip- t

mente

-miscellaneous.

4. Yes, occasionally, e.g., part-time 2 and 3

clerical.

Levy Distribution

$

~3 Departments

40

Service Facilities .. .•

(mainly phys ed.)

Departments Service .. Facilities .. .•

(mainly phys. ed.)

$

16 •• 17 .. 20

53

.. 16

.. 17 7

40 5. The deadline for payment is 1st

January, 1972. Some students have not yet paid but none have indicated that they will refuse to do so.

3. Direct and indirect faciUties to students; books to supplement library resources. Equipment for lecturers' use.

4 and 5.-No. Coburg Teachers Col/ege

1. Charges vary according to subjects and year of course,

1st year Diploma of Teaching (primary) 2nd year Diploma of Teaching (Primary) 3rd year Diploma of Teaching (Primary)

$ $ 53 to 60 46 to 57 42 to 57

4498 . Questions [ASSEMBLY.] on Notice .

2.

.. Subject

(a) Subject-Art .. .. . . .. .. Education .. .. .. .. English .. .. .. . , . . Library .. .. ., ., ., Mathematics .. .. .. .. Music .. .. .. .. Physical education .. .. .. Science .. .. .. .. . . Social science .. .. . . . . . .

(b) Other-Handbook .. .. .. .. Administration .. .. .. .. Equipment maintenance ., .. .. Graduation .. .. .. ..

3. Main purposes are: Purchase of multiple copies of tests and

reference books; purchase of sufficient foolscap, sten~~ls, dupl~catingpaper to' conduct progressive. testing .and examination for 775 students; purchase of paper 'and stendls to provide students with study guides, refer.ence·lists and other typed sheets; the sup-

2.

Education' .. ~nglish' - ...... -. Mathematics Art .. Mu$fc .. Physical education Science ..... Social science

Subject

! ..

. 3. Service charge, library, equipment, maintenance of. equipment, I.' D.' cards, graduation (3rd year only), handbook (1st year only), college camp, some of the·. subject charges include costs of books issued by the faculty; e.g., course of study.

4 and 5.-No. .... . Geelong Teachers CoUege $

1. 1st year·.stt,jdent .. (i. 00 21).9 ye~lI: $~udent 111.50 3rd year student 14.50

1st year I 2nd year 3rd year

$ C $ C $ c

6.00 8.00 10.00 8.00 8.00 10.00 6.00 8.00 . 8.00 7.00 7.00 7.00 '. 7.50 3.50 3.00 3.00 2.50 2.50 6.00 5.00 10.00 5.00 6.00 8.00 2.00 2.00 2.00

3.00 3.00 3.00 10.00 10.00 10.00 2.00 2.00 2.00 .. .. 10.00

plementing of equipment not supplied by the department.

4 and 5 . ....:.No.

Frankston Teachers College

1.--1st year students 2nd year students 3rd year students

·lst year 2nd year .'.

'$ ~ $ ~

3:00 3.00 3.00 3.00 1.00 ·4.00 2.00 8.00 1.20 ". 1.00 5.00 5.00 5.00 1.00 5.00 5.00

25:2U .. 30.00

2. Njl.

"',l

$ c 40.20 30:00

"37.20

3rd year", ~ .. .

. ,$ e ... 1

5.20 3.00 6.00

10.00 1.00 5.00 2.00 5.00

37.20 ~.

.. -

j' "

- .,

3. For. purchase of additional bdoksj equipment for students, student an'lenities~

tape recorders, additional materials':for. pre. . paration of 'aids, notes for students. \ .!

4. 'Clerical staff on 'part-time ·hasis-yes. ··College aides-no. ':'~' Maintena~ceigr~unds-rio.: . ;

Questions [28 MARCH, 1972.] , on· Notice. ·4499

5. No refusal.

Course Total general Total composite Total fee service fee Fee

$ C $ $ c (a) Dip. Teach. (P)1 .. 15 23 38 (b) Dip. Teach. (P) 2 14 21 35 (c) Dip. Teach. (P) 3 15 21 36 (d) T. Spec. T.C. 16 13 29 (e) T.T. Lib. C 16 7 23 (I) Dip. Sch. Lib. 16 7 23 (g) T~P.A.C.T.C. 16 15 31 (h) Homecrafts 6.50 10 16.50 (;) Dip; Ed. (P) 16 8 24 (j) H.D.T. (S) 1 15 .11 26 (k) H.D.T. (S) 2 14 11 25 (I) H.D.T. (S) 3 14 11 25 (m) H.D.T. (S) 4 15 11 26 (n) Dip. Ed. (S) 9 10 19 (0) S.A.C. Intern. 9 10 19 (P) S.A.C. 4th year 4.50 10 4.50

Composite fee made up of the following charges:-

Education-resource centro

Course Art Science Physical education Curriculium Child Educational Library Library

and· skills development physchology . feo (books) course feo

$ $ $ $ $ $ $ $

(a) .. 4 6 3 1 2 2 S .. (b) 4 6 3 1 .. 2 S .. (c) .. 4 -6 3 1 .. 2 S .. (d) .. 2 1 .. 1 2 2 5 (e) .. .. .. .. .. .. . . 5 2 <I) ..... .. .. .. . . .. . . 5 2 (g) .. 10 .. . . .. .. . . 5 .. (h) .. .. .. .. 1 2 2 S .. (;) .. .. . . .. 1 2 .. 5 .. (J) .. 6 .. .. . . .. . . 5 .. (k) .. 6 .. .. . . .. . .. S .. (I) .. 6' .. .. .. .. . . 5 .. (m) .. 6 5 .. .. . . . . .. . . .. (n) .. ·5 .. .. .. .. . . 5 .. (0) .. : S .. .. . . .. . . 5 .. (P) .. S .. .. . . .. . . S ..

3. General service fee to cover art purchases, graduation, handbook, equipment, duplication costs, college camps, and generally supplement departmental grants. Also maintenance of office equipment and provision of paper and stencils for admini-

4. Part of duplicating costs included in general service fee used to hire part-time clerical staff.

5. (a) Primary section-no refusals.

stration and teaching needs. . (b) Secondary (art and crafts)-133 re

fusals.

Toorak Teachers Col/ege 1. . 1st year Diploma of Teaching (primary) Men

1st year Diploma of Teaching (primary) Women 2nd year Diploma of Teaching (primary) 3rd year Diploma of Teaching (primary) .. 2nd year Trained Primary Teacher's Certificate

$

52 64 14 23 20


2.

Subject D.T. (P) 1 I

$ c Art .. .. .. . . 40 Education .. .. . . .. 50 English .. .. .. .. 40 Physical education .. .. . . 20 Music .. .. .. . . 2.20 Science .. .. .. . . 40 Speech .. . . . . 20 Social studies .. .. .. . . 20 Mathematics .. .. . . 35 Professional studies .. .. . . 50 Administration .. .. . . 4.00 Handbook .. " " .. 1.20 Graduation .. .. .. . . .. Books and stationery .. .. .. 21.00 P.E. uniform men .. .. .. 16.50 P.E. uniform women .. .. .. 28.90 Locker .. .. . . .. Equipment .. .. .. . . Excursions .. .. .. . .

3. The funds are mainly used to purchase items in bulk for issue to students. Concession prices thus gained are passed on to students.

Larnook Teachers Col/ege

20 3.50 ..

4. No.

5. None.

2

$ c 90

1.00 70 30 40 60 .. 40 30 50

4.00 1.20 .. .. .. .. 20

3.50 ..

1. 1st year student $83.50 (which includes $15 general service fee) 2nd year student $69.50 (maximum) 3rd year student $29.50 (maximum)

2.

Subject 1st year

$ C

Home economics A. .. .. .. .. . . 10 Home economics A. (psychology) .. .. .. . . 10 Home economics B .. .. .. . . 17 Home economics B (home environment) .. .. .. 4 Home economics (design) .. .. .. .. 8.50 Clothing and textiles .. .. .. .. . . 7 Art (elective) .. .. .. .. .. .. 5-13.50 Applied science .. .. .. .. .. .. .. Home economics C (management) .. .. .. .. .. Consumer clothing .. .. .. . . .. Foods (elective) will cease after 1972 .. .. .. .. Sociology .. .. .. .. . ~ - . . .. Foods and nutrition .. .. .. . . .. .. English .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. Education (psychology) . , .. .. .. .. .. Education (sociology) .. .. .. .. .. . . Method (clothing) .. .. .. .. .. .. Method (food) .. .. .. .. .. .. Home economics method .. .. .. .. .. . .

3

$ c 55 70 50 20 50 45 .. 45 .. 45

4.00 1.20 6.30 2.00 .. .. 20

3.50 2.00

2nd year

$ C

.. 10

.. 7 ..

5 5-15 3.50 3 1

12.50-15 10 17

. .

. .

. .

. .

. .

. .

T.p.T.e.2

$ c 80

1.00 60 30 40 50 .. 40 30 50

4.00 1.20 6.30 .. .. .. 20

3.50 ..

lrd year

$ c

. .

..

. .

. . . .

. . . . . .

. . ..

. .

..

.. 3.50

13 5 3 4.50 0.50

3. Amenities for students, social oc- - not), clothing (materials) and food -costs, casions, sets of books (students may take photocopying, duplicating. possession of their share of these books at 4. No. completion of each year; usually they do 5. No.


Monash Teachers College. 1. For college students-$2S.

For university students-$6. 2. No other fees. 3. Used in interests of students and wel

fare of students-to each departmentspecial materials-excursions, notes, transparency materials, duplicated material, improvement of amenities.

4. Clerical staff-no. College aides-no. Maintenance/ground staff-no.

5. No, but all payments are not yet complete.

Secondary Teachers College. 1. College courses-$lS per year.

University students-$10 per year. University graduate intake-nil.

2. Nil. 3. Student notes and other publications,

excursions, amen'ities, art collection, teaching materials, publications.

4. Clerical staff-no. College aides-no. Maintenance/ground staff-no.

5. No.

Technical Teachers College.

1. Studentship holders .. Temporary teachers ..

$ c 5.60

22.60 2. No subject fees except

elective. $4.50 film

3. Items purchased for benefit of students -handbooks, multiple copies of books, notes for students, material for teaching aids, charts, transparencies. Subsidy for student telephone. Entertainment for students guests at graduation.

4. Clerical-no. College aides-no. Maintenance/grounds-no.

5. No refusals for 1972.

Mr. THOMPSON.-The answers to parts 6, 7 and 8 of the question are-

6. In the event of any studentship holder failing to pay college charges, he will be warned and will be given reasonable time to meet his obligations by any method acceptable to the principal. If he continues to refuse to make arrangements to pay the charges, his studentship may be suspended.

7. It is not intended that there should be any interference with teachers' colleges in respect of any reasonable charges levied on students.

8. Studentship holders who attend universities meet all fees and levies charged by university authorities, except those fees relating directly to tuition and the cost of expendable materials used in certain practical classes.

FORESTS COMMISSION. PURCHASE OF LAND IN PORTLAND

DISTRICT: MUNICIPAL RATES.


Mr. W. J. LEWIS (Portland) asked the Minister of Forests-

1. How many acres of land have been purchased by the Forests Commission with the object of planting pines, in each of the shires in the electoral district of Portland?

2. Whether this purchase has resulted in a loss of rates to the shires concerned; if so, whether the Government will consider subsidizing the shires affected?

Mr. MEAGHER (Minister of Forests) .-The ·answers are-

1. Since July, 1966, the commencement of the Commonwealth-States Softwood Forestry Agreement, the Forests Commission has purchased six properties in the Portland electoral district. All are within the Shire of Portland. The total area of these purchases is 2,737 acres.

2. The land purchased becomes Crown land on which rates are not payable, but the shires derive direct benefit from Forests Commission expenditure on plantation establishment, and in actual and potential employment as the plantations develop. It is not proposed that the shires be directly subsidized for loss of rates.

DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH. CARRIERS OF INFECTIOUS DISEASES.


Mr. WILKES (Northcote) asked the Minister of Health-

What assistance is given, or what compensation is paid, to persons who are proved to be carriers of certain infectious diseases such as typhoid ·and who have had their businesses closed down ·and stock confiscated, consequently causing great financial loss?


Under section 134 of ·the Health Act 1958, compensation is payable by 'a council for the destruction of food by council officers where that destruction is rendered necessary in the interests of the public health but compensation is not payable in respect of the deprivation of the occupation or use of premises. One-half of any compensation lawfully paid bya council may be recouped from the Department of Health.

However, I refer the honorable member to my replies to questions Nos. 408 and 489 in which I stated that, in the case of a typhoid carrier, food in sealed rand

4502 .' Ques~ions [ASSEMBLY.] on . Notice.

unbroken packages need not be· seized, action being limited to broken packages of food and other food capable of contamination by handling by the carrier 'and 'to disinfection of the premises to the satisfaction of the" medical officer of health.

VISITS OF SCHOOL DENTAL VAN TO COLERAiNE AND PENSHURST.


Mr.. W. J. LEWIS (Portland) asked the Minister of Health-

Whether the services of the school dental van can now be extended to COleraine 'and Penshurst primary schools?


The school dental service,' because of inability to recruit qualified staff, is unable to extend its treatment facilities either in country or metropolitan areas.

HOUSING COMMISSION. UNITS FOR ELDERLY CITIZENS IN

HAMILTON MUNICIPALITY.


Mr. E.W. LEWIS (Dundas) asked the Minister of Housing-

Whether the Hamilton City Council has applied for ·additional single Housing Commission units for elderly citizens; if so(a)' when; (b) how many units were requested; ,and . (.c) where they would be situated? '

Mr. MEAGHER (Minister of Housing) .-The answer is- '

Yes. , (a) 10th September, 1970.

(b) No specific number. However, there are five lone person -and one low rental applications recorded with the commission.

(c) Several sites have been considered and negotiations are now being completed for land situated 'at the comer of Shakespeare and Francis streets, Hamilton.

HOSPITALS. SHORTAGE OF DOCTORS: STAFF.


Mr. W. J. LEWIS (Portland) asked the Minister of Health-

1. How many hospitals in Victoria are short of doctors at present?

2. Whether. the general staff position in each hospit~l has jrnprovedsince . last year?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister, of Health) .-The answers are- ' ..

1. Three public hospitals in Victoda 'are short of doctors :at present, two being resident medical officer positions.',

2. The nursing staff position in public hospitals has improved-there is no 'acute shortage anywhere. Some country hospitals experience seasonal shortages of a temporary nature.

The general and paramedical staff position is satisfactory.

POLLUTION. EMISSIONS FROM PREMISES AT COBURG~'


Mr. SIMMONDS (Reservoir) asked the Minister of Health- ' ,

With respeCt to the ;answer given to question No. 1,017, what measures have been taken by the Department of Health to(a) prosecute Steel Company of Australia Pty. Ltd. under the relevant section of the Health Act 1958 with regard to emissions from their factory; (b) require the company to institute control measures to reduce or elimin'ate the emissions of orange-brown fumes containing iron oxide; and (c) limit production at the works until such 'Control measure~ 'are imp~emented?


(a) In so far as the operations of this factory are concemed no offence under the Clean Air Act has occurred. If a nuisance within the meaning of the Health Act was caused by the firm, it is the respOnsibility of the local council to take action.·

(b) No directions have been issued by my department for the installation of control measures regarding the orange-brown fumes; nevertheless a considerable amount of investigational work has been 'Carried out by the company with 'the knowledge of officers of my department and a 'number of points of emission of invisible pollutants' have been controlled at these works by the expenditure by the firm of large amounts of money. The company has, in fact, been progressively . " cleaning up" its foundry over 'a considerable period. As the iron oxide fume which results during the decar-' burising process has not been shown to be harmful to health, the company has left ·the control of this visible emission to the last item 'to be cleaned up in its programme.

Unfortunately, the programme has been slowed down by the untimely death of Mr: Arblaster, the former technical director of the company, who was in charge of the investigational work but it is still continuing.

(c) No steps ' to limit production hav~, been taken.

, Questions [28 MARCH, 1972.] without Notice. 4503

'ABSENCE OF MINISTER. The SP,EAKER (Sir Vernon

Christie).-I have been informed that the Minister for Social Welfare is not well 'and is unable to be present.

QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE.

MENTALLY RETARDED CHILDREN.

Mr. LIND (Dandenong).-Can the Minister of Health inform the House whether a child named Janelle L'avery, aged, five, has, for a period of t~ree yeat:s, 'occupied a high priority' position op. the most urgent list for ad,mission to an institution and, if that is th'e position, when will the Mental 'H~alth Authority recognize her needs "and ensure that her 'parents are granted the type of relief to which they are entitled?

Mr." ROSSITER (Minister of Health) .-The child in question was 'the "subject of an article in the H~rald on Saturday evening. Her age and priority are such that she ·is 'Dot yet able to' be ' admitted 'within the terms of the St. Nich.olas 'psychiatric hospital. ' However, 'during this time she has been receiving attention from the St. Nicholas hosi>i~al. 'Assistance has been given to her ~nd her parents.' At the moment Dr. Maginn from the St. Nicholas hospital' is seeking to place the child 'in a "day-minding centre. I am disturbed that an article, such as the 'one which was written, should highlight the case of one c~iId when there are 200 other children in the com,munity demanding and not getting the proper treatment. The Government.is in the midst of a long-term ,plan to relieve the situation for those ~hiIdren and the urgent and the most urgent waiting lists are quietly and inevitably being reduced. The Gov,ernment is planning to, provide accommodation 'at Colac and at Kingsbury for,more than 600 of these childre'n' and in' due course the deficiency will be- completely eradicated.

PHYSICAL EDUCATION COURSES. Mr. DIXON (St. Kilda).-Can the

Minister of Education advise whether the Diploma of Physical Education course is being phased out and replaced at the University of Melbourne and, if so, does the Government favour a replacement course in 'a degree of physical education or a degree in human physical performance?

Mr. THOMPSON (Minister of Education) .-The Government has conSistently expressed the view that either a diploma or a degree course in physical education should be re,tained at the M'elbourne unive~sity.


Mr. DOUBE (Albert Park).I direct a fur:ther question to' ,the Minister of Health. In view of t.Oe numbers currently on the waiting list for 'accommodation in the Mental ,Health Authority's institutions' for mentally retarded children, and the current rate of building that the Government is maintaining, together with the natural increase that may be expected with the birth of retarded chil~ dren, is it riot a fact that the waiting list will exist' well into the' next century?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister, of Health) .-That is a value judgment of the honorable member for Albert Park. I ,do not agree with it.

PHYSICAL EDUCATION COURSES. Mr. WILKES (Northcote).-Follow

ing on the answer given by the Minister of Education in reply to the'honorable member for St. Kilda, should the University of' Melbourne decide to discontinue the diploma or degree course in physical education, has the Minister or the Government any plans to establish diplom'a courses in any of the colleges affiliated with the Victoria Institute of Colleges?

Mr. THOMPSON ,(Minister of Educ'ation) .-Only this year the' Goy~ ernment made money available for a diploma course to be started at the


Monash Teachers College with an intake of approximately 70 students. I understand that the Victoria Institute of Colleges is considering commencing diploma of physical education courses but as yet I have not seen any hard and fast proposals. However, the answer would seem to be that the tertiary institution, namely, Melbourne university, which had all the necessary facilities built during the past decade, should continue to run the course.

PAYMENT OF TERTIARY STUDENTS.

Mr. SUGGETT (Bentleigh).-Is the Minister of Education aware of a policy statement made by a spokesman for the Australian Labor Party to the effect that tertiary students in training should be paid, and has the honorable gentleman examined such a proposal?

Mr. THOMPSON (Minister of Education) .-1 did see a press statement which was alleged to have been made by a spokesman for the Labor Party and which suggested that a living allowance should be made to tertiary students. As a rough estimate, that proposal would require a payment of perhaps $3,000 or $1,500 to 60,000 tertiary students, and would involve expenditure of $180 million in one case and $90 million in the other.

COMMONWEALTH UNEMPLOYMENT GRANTS.

Mr. ROSS-EDWARDS (Leader of the Country Party) .-Will the Treasurer give consideration to issuing a weekly list setting out grants which have been made under the Commonwealth rural unemployment relief scheme? 1 have in mind a list similar to that which is issued by the Public Works Department in connection with tenders. 1 think all honorable members have been embarrassed in recent weeks to learn only from the press that a grant has been made.

Sir HENRY BOLTE (premier and T,reasurer) .-1 hope that can be done, because I fully understand that

local members wish to know what is taking place within their electorates. On some occasions, an application is made to Mr. Webster by telephone by a shire secretary, and he is given approval immediately. In such a case, it is difficult to notify the honorable member who represents the area concerned. I will consider this proposal, because 1 think it is proper that honorable members should be informed.

"MALES AND FEMALES" COURSE.

Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the Opposition) .-Is the Minister 'Of Education aware of reported criticism by his Federal colleague of the science course-the cc Males and Females" course-which has been instituted by the Education Department? If so, does the honorable gentleman agree with the criticism?

The SPEAKER (Sir Vemon Christie).-This question deals with a matter of opinion. 1 think it should be rephrased.

Mr. HOLDING.-Has the Minister of Education read the criticism of the Commonwealth Minister for Education on the course which is entitled cc Males and Females"? Has the Federal Minister's criticism been directly communicated to the honorable gentleman, and if so, does he intend to adopt the same view?

Mr. THOMPSON (Minister of Education) .-1 have received no written communication from the Commonwealth Minister for Education, but I have read the press report to which the Leader of the Opposition refers. The people preparing this new course have had a very difficult task to perform, because they are breaking new ground and it is hard to develop a course which will command 1 00 per cent support.

I think the Minister said that it would be preferable for the biological and ethical or moral aspects to be combined rather than treating the biological aspect of sex in isolation. Generally speaking, I agree with that


suggestion. It is intended that a detailed study will be made of objections which have been raised in an effort to develop a course which will command general approval.

VICTIMS OF VIOLENT CRIME. Mr. MUTTON (Coburg).-Will the

Chief Secretary inform the House of the progress made by the speCial committee which was established to examine the need for payment of compensation to victims of violent crime?

Mr. HAMER (Chief Secretary).That committee is actually operating within the Attorney-General's Department and I have received no recent report from it.

Mr. MUTTON (Coburg).-Mr. Speaker, may I redirect my question to the Attorney-General?

Mr. REID (Attorney-General).I expect an early report to be made to me by this committee.

" HOT BREAD" SHOPS. Mr. CRELLIN (Sandringham).

Can the Minister of Labour and Industry inform me whether he has received any representations from operators of so-called "hot bread" shops concerning a change in baking hours and, if so, is there likely to be an early change?

Mr. RAFFERTY (Minister of Labour and Industry) .-1 remind the House that week-end baking hours are fixed by election of the bakers, and they have to elect to bake on a Saturday or a Sunday. If they elect to bake on Saturday they may bake all day, but on Sunday they must finish baking by 7 a.m.

1 have had representations made to me by a baking group who have indicated that they represent the socalled" hot bread" bakers, and they asked whether the Government would consider extending trading hours on Sunday fer bread baked and sold on the premises. This group was asked

to provide additional information, which has now come to hand and is being examined.

In the meantime, representations have also been made to me by the appropriate union and the master bakers. Both of these groups have been asked to submit additional information to me. This additional information has not yet come to hand, but when it does it will be examined.

There is no likelihood of an early change in the present law. Meantime it is important that I should inform the House that the present law will continue to be maintained.


Mr. TREZISE (Geelong North).Did the Premier inform the House last week that the Government was endeavouring to overcome discrimination in leave provisions among various State instrumentalities? If so, among the employees of the Melbourne and Metropolitan Tramways Board are three separate provisions for sick leave, and Similarly--

The SPEAKER (Sir Vernon Christie).-Order! The question should be asked.

Mr. TREZISE.-Is the Premier aware that there are three separate grades of sick leave among Tramways Board employees, and will the honorable gentleman investigate this matter with a view to overcoming this discrimination?

Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer) .-The honorable member for Geelong North did not hear me correctly. What 1 said last weekt

and now repeat, was that it was a question of grace days and had nothing to do with leave. These days are granted by grace 'of the Government to certain sections of its employees and it was on that issue that 1 made that statement.


ROYAL CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL. Mr. FELL (Greensborough).

I ask the Minister of Health: Has the research unit recommended by the Whatmore committee in 1969 been established at the Royal Children's Hospital; if not, when will a grant be made available for the installation of this research unit?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Health) .-The research unit has not yet been established, but, I will be having discussions with. the TreaSurer on the· occasion of the framing of the next Budget.

TEACHERS TRIBUNAL. Mr. DIXON (St. Kilda).-I direct

a question to the Minister 'of Education: Has the Victorian Se'condary Teachers . Association recently· at'tended meetings called between the Minister . and teacher unions to dis~uss the Teachers Tribunal?

Mr. THOMPSON (Minister ·of Equc,ation) .~On a number of 'occas,ions 't· have . seen deputations from the· Victorian SecQridary Tea-tChers 'Assodation. However, since the publication of the Southwell report invitations have been extended to·, all teacher organizations-that .would include all six-to attend sixteen different meetings to discuss recommendations contained in the

'Southwell' report. The Victorian Secondary Teachers Association has ,declined to attend those meetings, but the attendance of all other organizations· has been regular ..

HOUSING INTEREST RATES. . Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds).

Is the Minister of Housing aware of reports that recently he has advocated the lowering of interest rates .for hpme buyers? Is the honorable gentleman also aware that the Feder~l Minister for Housing has condemned that policy as being against basic Liberal principles? If the Minister is aware of both of these matters, could he inform the House whether the reports are correct?

'The SP,EAKER (Sir Vernon Christie ).-The last part of the question, asking for an opinion, is out of order.

Mr. EDMUNDS.-Has the Minister been correctly reported in advocating the lowering of interest rates? If so, how does he intend to implement this policy for the benefit of home purchasers?

The SPEAKER.-The last question is out of order because it asks the Minister whether· he had been correctly reported in the press. . The question should be asked directly: "Does the Minister?".

Mr. EDMUNDS.-Has the Minister made· a statement advocating the lowering of int.erest- rates for' home buyers? If so, how does he inte~d to implement this policy?

Mr. . MEAGHER . .(Ministe·r' , of Housing).-No, I have not recently advocated the lowering of interest ·rates. Last ·week,· I addressed the annual conference of the' Australian Association of Building Societies and I advanced. several thoughts on means by which young home builders ·might be .helped to' meet the cost of their' homes and to aV'oid the' heavy interest·.charges associated with· second mortgages. On that occasion, I did . not refer' to any lowering of 'interest rates ..

PIPELIN,E UNDER . . PQRT PHILLIP BAY.

Mr.· FORDHAM (Footscray).I address a question to the Minister for '. Fuel and Power and I take the 'opportunity of welcoming the honorable gentleman back to Victoria. In view of the progress reported by the Minister· for Local Government on the inquiry into the alternatiye land corridor for pipelines to skirt around Port Phillip Bay, will the Minister hold up' the permit'issiled to EssoBHP for a pipeline route across the bay pending the completion of the study? .

Mr. BALFOUR (Minister for Fuel and Power).-I thank the honorable member for his welcome; I am very

Question$ " .',': [28,MA~c~, 1972.] without Notice. 4507

pleased to be home. As 1 took up my duties again .only on Monday, 1 am not well aware of what went on il,l ~y abserice. 1 believe that, in answer to a question, the Minister for Local Government indicated that certain progress had been made on the investigation of a corridor for pipelines around Melbourne. But, as 1 have previously explained to the House, there is no way in which I can withhold the permit referred to. The permit and the licence were issued and it is up to the parties to whom they were issued to get on with the job. There is no provision in the Act for them to be held up or cancelled. 1 believe that the time that will finally be taken on the inquiry into an easement for pipelines around Melbourne will be so iong that, before the inquiry is concluded, this pipeline will have been operating for some time.

REDUNDANCY WITHIN STATE ELECTRICITY COMMISSION.

Mr. AMOS (Morwell).-Has the Minister for Fuel and Power or have representatives of the State Elec· tricity Commission had ~iscussions on redundancy with officials of unions representing a large propor· tion of the work force in the Latrobe Valley undertakings? If so, when did the discussions take place and what conclusions were arrived at?

Mr. BALFOUR (Minister for Fuel and Power) .-It is my belief that for some' time, discussions have been taking place between management and union representatives on redundancy. 1 regret that 1 cannot answer the honorable member's question fully. 1 shall be pleased to provide him with . as full an answer' as 1 can from his present question or, if he wishes, he can put the question on the Notice Paper. Whichever way the, honorable member chooses, 1 am prepared to make an investigation of what has. been happening and advise him of the present position.

• 0' • • ... ~. • • • ,. • ~ .. ••

MILK IN CARTONS. Mr. ·W. J. LEWIS (Portland).--

Because a large quantity of milk is now sold in cartons and because it is virtually impossible to know how long that milk has been in the cartons, will the Minister of Health consider the implementation of legis· lation to ensure that the cartons are stamped with the relevant date when they are filled with milk?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Health) .-1 will refer the question to the Minister of AgricUlture. .

RURAL RECONSTRUCTION SCHEME.

Mr. TREWIN (Benalla).-Can the Minister of Lands inform' the House of the progress of the rural reconstruction scheme and whether the impetus to the farm build-up section of this scheme has 'improved over the past two or three weeks?

Mr. BORTHWICK (Minister of Lands) .-The offers made under this scheme are: Debt reconstruction,. 452 cases involving $10,428,550; farm 'build-up, 108 cases involving $2,402,300; which represent a total of 560 cases involving $12,830,850. Of these offers, acceptance has been received in 479 cases involving $10,810,250.

The second part of the honorable member's question asks whether there has been any change in attitude by applicants, particularly in relation to farm build-up. So" far, this month, approximately 30· per cent of new applications have been in the area of farm build-up, and everything possible is being done to encourage this type of, application in the belief that in Victoria, which has many farms of relatively low acreage with high capitalization, the long-term interest of the rural industry will be best served with farm build-up.

WATSON'S CREEK RESERVOIR. Mr. FLOYD (Williamstown).-Oan

the, Minister representing the, Min-, ister for Local Government, ()r:. th~


Chief Secretary who knows something of this subject, inform me whether there has been any change in the policy of the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works towards the acquisition of property at Christmas Hills for the Watson's Creek reservoir from the people who might want to sell?

Mr. WILCOX (Minister for Transport) .-1 have no knowledge of the matter, and I shall direct the honorable member's question to the Minister for Local Government.

REDUNDANCY WITHIN STATE ELECTRICITY COMMISSION.

Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the Opposition) .-Can the Minister for Fuel and Power inform the House whether he has, in his ·capacity as ;Minister, been personally involved in any discussions with trade union officials on the problems of redundancy within the State Electricity Commission and, if so, a're those discussions continuing? Can he also inform me if any conclusions were reached as to the result of such discussions?

. Mr. BALFOUR (Minister for Fuel and Power) .-Some time ago I met some representatives of the Latrobe Valley Trades and Labour Council when some matters were discussed. At this meeting, I arranged for them to see top management of the State Electricity Commission.

Mr. HOLDING.--'How long ago?

Mr. BALFOUR.-Some months ago. Since then I have not had any discussion with them. To the best of my knowledge discussions were to take place; whether they have or have not, I would not be sure, but certainly arrangements were set in train for discussions to take place with the Latrobe Valley management and management from Melbourne and representatives of the Latrobe Valley Trades 'and Labour Council. However, I shall make inquiries to determine what, if anything, has been done.

TEACHER SHORTAGE IN BROADMEADOWS.

Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows).Can the Minister of Education inform me when post-primary schools in Broadmeadows electorate will be accorded some relief from the grave shortage of qualified, trained teach~rs from which the schools are sufferIng and which has caused a serious upset to the teaching programme?

Mr. THOMPSON (Minister of Education) .-The schools in the honorable member's electorate are treated on exactly the same basis as t.hose in other electorates. Once agaIn, I stress that this year the staffing schedule for secondary schools is far more generous than any th~t. has previously operated. An addItIonal 300 teachers were required to cater for additional pupils, and in fact 1 000 more teachers were appointed. I 'suggest that shortages which have developed in some schools would be overcome if teachers were prepared to teach as many periods as teachers are prepared to teach in the richest State of the world's richest country, namely, California .


Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the Opposition) .-In view of the statement by the Minister of Health that some 200 mentally retarded children are at present awaiting housing and supervision in institutions to be created by his department, and in view of the fact that he has said that his department has plans to enable this to occur, can the honorable gentleman give the House any definite assurance as to when these plans will be put into effect and the children will be effectively housed and supervised in proper accommodation?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Health) .---'1 would not be doing my duty to the House, the Mental Health Authority or the children concerned if I made a statement along the lines suggested by the


Leader of the Opposition. It is impossible to lay down a specific ti~e for the completion of any pubbc building in this State. However, plans are at present being worked out considered and implemented for Col~c and Kingsbury.


Mr. KIRKWOOD (Preston).-Has the Minister of Transport investigated the ,claim by the combined tramway unions that their members would be regarded as third-class citizens if they accepted anything less than the officers' sick pay conditions?

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Transport) .-As I indicated to the House last week-and I think the week before-I am wen aware of the facts of the dispute between the tramway unions and the Tramways Board, and I do not need to reiterate those. I understand that the board and the unions were to meet again this morning, and I hope the unions now realize that the board means what it says. It will be a pity if any further stoppages occur.

MINIMUM WAGE. Mr. SIMMONDS (Reservoir).-Can

the House assume fro'm the Victorian Government's appearance in the national wage case-in which the Government took the position that the minimum wage should not be increased-that the Premier and Treasurer is satisfied that a wage of $46.30 is adequate?

The SPEAKER (Sir Vernon Christie).-Order! A question should be asked.

Mr. SIMMONDS.-Is the Premier and Treasurer satisfied that the minimum wage of $46.30 is an adequate living wage?

The SPEAKER.-Order! I must rule that out. It asks for an opinion.

Session 1972.-160

Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the Opposition) .-As a matter of Government policy, does the Treasurer believe it is proper for the State of Victoria to intervene--

The SPEAKER.-That is a question of opinion.

Mr. HOLDING.---'I shall put it as a matter of policy. Is it Government policy for the State of Victoria to be represented before the Commonwealth Conciliation and Arbitration Commission to argue that the existing minimum wage is a proper wage and that there should be no increase? Is that the view of the Treasury?

Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer) .-As I understand it, this case has just been completed. The judg.ment will be brought dnwn very shortly, and I feel that under those 'conditions one should not comment.

BOXING. Mr. E. W. LEWIS (Dundas).-I

direct a question relating to boxing to the 'Minister of Health. Last September I asked the Minister whether he would implement a scheme similar to that introduced in New South Wales which directed that boxers should carry medical cards 'setting out the history of their health. The honorable gentleman's answer then was that he would investigate the Imatter. ,Has the Minister completed his investigation, and if so will he report the results to the House?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Health) .-1 have not completed my investigations. When I do so I will report to the House.

LIQUOR CONTROL (AMENDMENT) BILL.

Mr. HAMER (Chief Secretary).By leave, I move-

That I have leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Liquor Control Act 1968 and for other purposes.

The broad purpose of this Bill is to make a number of unrelated amendments to the Liquor Control Act

4510 Workers Compensation Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Mt. Hotham Alpine Resort Bill.

which have been recommended by the Liquor Control Commission for the better working of the Act.


a first time.

WORKERS COMPENSATION BILL. Mr. HAMER (Chief Secretary).-

By leave, I move- . That I have leave to bring in a Bill to

increase the compensation pay.able under the Workers Compensation Act 1958.

The purpose of this Bill is twofold -firstly, as its title implies, to increase the scale of benefits payable under the Workers Compensation Act, including lump-sum payments; and secondly, to abolish the present salary limit 'of $6,000 in the definition of worker.


The Bill was hrought in and read a first time.

COUNTY COURT (JURISDICTION) BILL.

Mr. REID (Attorney-General).-By leave, I move-

That I have leave to bring in a Bill to extend ,the jurisdiction of the County Court in relation to certain civil matters and for other purposes.

I ts main purpose is to increase the present jurisdiction of the County Court, which is currently limited to $8,000 in claims concerning motor vehicle accidents and $4,000 in 'Other cases. It is intended to increase the limits to $12,000 for claims relating to personal injuries and to $6,000 in other cases. The measure also includes ancillary provisions providing for the transfer of current proceedings from the Supreme Court to: the County Court and regarding the apportionment of costs.



SUPREME COURT (CIVIL APPEALS) BILL.

Mr. REID (Attorney-General).-By leave, I move-

That I have leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Supreme Court Act 1958 with respect to the powers of the Full Court in hearing ,and determining appeals.

The first purpose of the measure is to provide that the Full Court of the Supreme Court of Victoria, O'n sustaining an appeal from a case tried by a judge and jury, will have power to substitute its own verdict instead of referring the matter back to a judge and jury for a new trial. This is aimed at saving the time of the court and is consistent with the procedure already adopted when there is an appeal from a trial by a judge sitting alone.

Its second purpose is to clarify certain conflicting legal decisions concerning the power of the Full Court to refer back in a jury case, particularly relating to contributory negligence, certain issues only, instead of the whole issue, for trial by another judge and jury. The amendments will clear up certain conflicting legal decisions.


a first time.

MT. HOTHAM ALPINE RESORT BILL.

Mr. BORTHWICK (Minister of Lands).- By leave, I move-

That I have leave ·to bring in a Bill to provide for the better administr,ation of the Mt. Hotham alpine area.

The Mount Hotham Alpine Reserve has existed for many years, and for some 30 years, perhaps haphazardly at times, the area has been developed as a ski village and a tourist resort. It has been my experience that the existing provisions of the Land Act are insufficient for the proper management of the area.

The purpose of the Bill is to give statutory backing to a properly constituted committee of management and to lay down the duties and

Soldier Settlement [28 MARCH, 1972.] (Amendment) Bill. 4511

responsibilities of the committee as well as requirements for leasing and licensing under certain restrictions designed to safeguard the environment. Generally, the measure will provide for the better administration of an existing development.

The motion was agreed to'. The Bill was brought in and read

a first time.

DOOKIE AGRICULTURAL COLLEGE LAND BILL.

Mr. BORTHWICK (Minister of Lands) .-By leave, I move-

That I have leave to bring in a Bill relating to certain lands in the Parish of Currawa.

The Leader of the Country Party will know the parish referred to. The Bill deals with the desires of the Country Roads Board to realign the Midlands Highway. The board has investigated four alternatives and, with the agreement of the Shire of Shepp:uton and, under certain restrictions, of the Department of Agriculture, the new alignment will take approximately 17 acres of land reserved for the Dookie Agricultural College. This area will be replaced by approximately 24 acres, so the total area of the college property will be increased. Both the Shire of Shepparton and the Department of Agriculture agree with the proposal.


a first time.

SOLDIER SETTLEMENT (AMENDMENT) BILL.

Mr. BORTHWICK (Minister of Lands) .-By leave, I move-

That I have leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Soldier Settlement Act 1958 and the Rural Finance Act 1958. The two major provisions of the Bill deal with a considerable variation of existing sections 67 A and 86 of the Soldier Settlement Act, which impose severe restrictions on soldier settlers in the use of their land. The amendments will remove those restrictions under certain circumstances. The third major feature of

the Bill is an amendment to the Rural Finance Act to increase from $30 million to $40 million the borrowing powers of the Rural Finance and Settlement Commission. The Bill also contains three clauses based on legal interpretations of provisions of the existing Act. These are very complicated, and I will explain them in more detail during my secondreading explanatory speech.



NATIONAL PARKS SERVICE. ANNUAL REPORT.

Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows).I move-

That this House take note of the report of the Director of National Parks for the year 1970-71.

The purpose of the motion is to enable the House to take note of the report and particularly of some of the points which have been made in it. A significant change has occurred as a result of legislation enacted by Parliament in 1970 to abolish the National Parks Authority and to set up the National Parks Service as a section of the Department of State Development.

Mention should be made of the services rendered by the members of the former National Parks Authority. Most of them were heads of Government departments, and as members of the authority they made a valuable contribution to the State in the development, control and protection of na tional parks for the benefit of the community. Some private citizens were also members of the National Parks Authority. They represented organizations which are actively concerned in the protection of national pa'rks and the environment that those parks ,create. These people have served this State well over a number of years.

4512 National Parks [ASSEMBLY.] Service.

The Director of National Parks, Dr. Smith, in his report, has brought to the attention of Pa:rlia,ment some of the difficulties that the National Parks Service has experienced. It would be fair to say that the most pressing problem is lack of finance and this in turn means lack of adequate staff. This is a serious problem to the National Parks Service and is causing grave concern amongst those people in the community who take an active interest 'in the work carried out in the national parks.

As a result of legislation enacted by this Parliament last year, national parks a're now the responsibility of the Minister for State Development. Parliament has ,created a situation where a Minister of the Crown has direct responsibility in this field and the Director of National Parks is now Iresponsible directly to the Minister for State Development. The first point I want to emphasize is th'at the State Developm'ent Act 1970 provided for the appointment by the Minister for State Development of four advisory committees. One 'committee is to be known as the National Parks Advisory Committee and the r,ole of this committee is to advise and assist the Minister in the administration of national parks. The report shows that at the end of the year 1970-71, the advisory committee had not been appointed but indicates that the preliminary steps have been taken. I emphasize that the appointment of this committee is most important and urgent because it will play a very important role in 'implementing, and have a significant influence on, the plans brought forward by the Minister for State Development. I am sure the honorable gentleman will act on the advice of this committee, so I am hopeful that during this debate the Minister handling the 'matter for the Government will indicate to the Chamber what progress has been made since the writing of this report.

Mr. Wilton.

The report indicates ;that over the years there has been an increase in the amount of finance provided by the Government for both works and services and for administliation. As I stated earlier, the report also reveals that there are grave problems emerging in the immediate future owing to the volume of work needed to be performed and the capacity of the National Parks Service to carry out this work. These questions are inevitably governed by thea,mount of finance made available to the service. The report shows the increase in funds provided over the years-but it is obvious from reading the remainder of the report that insufficient funds are allocated. For instance, in :the year 1970-71, the Governm'ent granted $218,250 for works and services and $117,000 for administration. I hope the Minister at the table can inform the House whether there will be a substantial increase in those amounts as a result of the comments contained in the report.

It is interesting to note that when the National Parks Authority first came into existence, there were thirteen national parks in Victoria comprising a total area of 313,155 acres. During the life of the National Parks Authority, more parks were established, with a consequent 'increase in acreage. The total area is now 506,531 acres. Although this is appreciated by me and other people who are vitally interested in this work, the acreage is still a long way short of what has now become the accepted minimal areas of land which should be reserved for all time as national parks. The figure that has been accepted for a number of years as being the minimum is 5 per cent of the area of the State and that is what Victoria should be prepared to accept. I have supported that philosophy over the years but I also take the view that it is the minimum figure and should not become the maximum. Honorable members should not be satisfied with the acreage of national parks just amounting to 5 per cent of the

National Parks [28 MARCH, 1972.] Service. 4513

area of the State, so I trust that the Minister at the table can give the House some information on the Government's plans to increase substantially the number of parks and the total acreage.

It is interesting to study the figures in the report of the number of visitors now using national parks. The numbers have been progressively increasing over the years from 189,000 in 1959-60 to 538,500 in 1970-71. It should be pointed out that these are not accurate figures because at many national parks, owing to shortages of staff, it is not possible to keep accurate records. It would be fair to comment that the number of 538,500 would be smaller than the real number. However, the important point that emerges is that there has been a steady and progressive increase in the number of visitors each year and it ·must be assumed that this trend will continue. Wilson's P,romontory National Park appears to be very popular with the community, and it had the impressive figure of 104,000 visitors for the year 1970-71. Kinglake National Park is equally popUlar, having had 106,000 visitors. The reason for the popularity of Kinglake National Park is that it is close to the metropolis and access to it is 'easy. That fact is reflected in the number of visitors. The report makes the very valid point :that an analysis of the figures for Wilson's Promontory and Kinglake national parks indicates that the annual visitor intake to those parks has increased at the rate of 11 or 12 per cent over the past ten years. It is reasonable to assume that the increase will continue during the present decade.

Care must be taken-other national park authorities throughout the world have encountered this problem-to avoid what is described as over-exposure or over-use of national parks. Probably there is little danger of the problem being ignored, because I am satisfied that Dr. Smith and his officers are aware of happen-

ings in other parts of the world and regularly study current information that they receive. Over-exposure of national parks has become a very serious problem in countries with populations larger than that of Australia.

It is essential that the authority should have the means with which to deal with problems which arise. The Minister for State Development is responsible for ensuring that the organization is adequately equipped physically, monetarily and mechanically.

The report mentions proposed national parks in areas such as the Warby Ranges, the Wappan Block, the Wilkin area, and the Werribee Gorge, and I trust that the Minister will inform the House of the progress that has been made, because although it is the latest available, this report is rather old. The Werribee Gorge has become popular, doubtless because of its proximity to Melbourne.

Proposals for the use of these areas have been submitted for consideration by the Land Conservation Council. This is a result of legislation enacted by Parliament in 1969. At that time it was indicated that, in conformity with Government policy, the authority would be established and that its prime purpose would be to examine areas of land under the control of the Crown to determine the best use which could be made of it. The examination was to be conducted in a much more advanced way than previous investigations and was to take into consideration ecology, flora, fauna and geological features to enable an accurate assessment of the best use to be made of the areas concerned. I do not quarrel with that, but I urge the Minister to ensure that these investigations are completed as soon as possible. A decision on the possible use of Crown land for national parks should be made expeditiously.

4514 National Parks [ASSEMBL Y.] Service.

. As I have said before, it has been agreed both inside and outside Parliament that an area of 5 per cent of the area of 'the State is the minimum desirable for national parks and, although I am firmly 'Of the view that 5 per cent should never be regarded as the maximum figure, I think it is essential that the Minister should take steps to reach that level as quickly as possibly.

Mr. DUNSTAN .-What is the present figure?

Mr. WILTON.-I think I per cent would be a fair estimate.

Mr. BORTHWIcK.-That is of national parks, is it?

Mr. WILTON.-Yes. Perhaps it is a little more than that. There is still a long way to go before the minimum figure is reached; in any case, I believe the minimum area of national park land should be 6 per cent or 7 per cent of the total area of Viotoria.

Dealing with a proposal that a national park should be established in the Baw Baws, the report states that field naturalist organizations in Gippsland have been arguing strongly in support of it, especially in the South Cascade Creek area. It states that the authority has made an investigation and submitted a report to the Land Conservation Council for consideration. From that, I infer that the authority is anxious to receive an early decision on the use of this area. On its own intiative the authority has carried out an investigation and submitted recommendations to the Land Conservation Council. I am sure that the authority's submission contains much useful informaHon. It. has expressed the view that the area would be most suitable for a national park and that such a reservation could be made without conflicting with current developments which are taking place in the Baw Baws. This is an instance in which something can be done almost immediately towards increasing the acreage of national park land in this State.

During this debate the Government should reaffirm its expressed opinion that 5 per cent is the minimum area of land which should be reserved as national parks. I am sure that this reaffirmation would be welcomed by all sections of the community. This is an issue which must be raised regularly; if it is not, it will be lost in the wilderness of Government administration.

A t page 34 of the report the director states-

It must be assumed that, in passing the new legislation, Parliament hoped and expected that a better setvice for the people of Victoria would be forthcoming in the field of national parks. But it must not be supposed that the mere act of transferring powers and responsibilities from one body to another will in itself produce the desired improvements.

I fully support those comments. The mere act of transferring responsibility from 'One department to another in itself achieves nothing. The Government must be prepared to give a clear indication of its plans to bring about the advancements that are required in the State's national parks system, but this cannot be done Simply by increasing the acreage of existing parks. The problem is much more involved. There must be a substantial increase in both the technical and the supervisory staffs employed by the authority. The director's report continues-

The authority's annual reports of previous years are very helpful in this regard and a careful ,analysis of them results in a clear conviction that the essential elements required by the National Parks Service, which were not adequately available to the former authority, are financed and troained personnel.

At this point the director was dealing with the drawing up of plans for new national parks for the purpose of achieving the desired objectives. The former authority did not have ade.quate finance or staff and it was unable to do the job it wanted to do. The report continues-

The authority sought constantly to have more money made .av:ailable for ~Tor~s and services within national parks, ana JC IS true that the allocations were increased. But the amount allocated has been inadequate to cope with the needs which existed when the


authority was est.ablished, let alone keep abreast of the growing demands arising from increased use of the na·tional parks by the people.

I have already referred to the increasing number of people using national parks, and the director's report contains some interesting statistics which honorable members may study. They clearly sh'Ow that there has been a dramatic increase in the number of people visiting national parks. The report further states-

At the end of the current financial year the position had been re·ached at which the "operating costs" for Victoria's 23 national parks actually exceeded the Government grant for "works and services".

This clearly indicates the seriousness of the problem. It will be obvious to honorable members that even to maintain the services which were provided last year in national parks there will have t'O be an increase in the allocation of funds to the authority. Of course, that in itself would not be sufficient; much more needs to be done. Therefore the increase in funds to be made available to the authority should be substantial. I t is time that the Government took this authority out of the Cinderella class and gave it the support it is entitled to receive. It is not unreasonable to assert that the community should use these parks for their benefit and leisure, and I am satisned that the authority w-ishes this situation to continue, for that is its purpose.

I was most concerned to read on page 35 of the report that for some time a se·rious problem involving the development and installation of a sewerage system has existed at Tidal River. The National Parks Service is gravely concerned at this situation, and, together with the committee of management, it has been collaborating with the Public Works Department and the Department of Health with a view to devising a suitable scheme for sewage disposal at Tidal River. Plans for this work have been prepared, but the estimated cost is considerable and beyond the capacity

of the authority, which is seeking a sum of approximately $51,000 to meet the cost involved.

When introducing Supply, the Treasurer stated that funds would be provided for this work. I hope the Minister can assure the House that if the funds have been provided the necessary work will proceed immediately because the problem has existed for a considerable time. In his report the director has stated that sewage disposal creates a health problem. In view of the vast number 'of people using this park, the Department of Health should be gravely concerned about the situation. I hope the Minister can relieve my anxiety on this matter, because one can imagine what might happen in this area if this urgent work is not carried out immediately. The work could be completed before the busy holiday period at the end of the yea·r when people will be visiting Tidal River in large numbers, many of them staying for lengthy periods. The existing shocking and chaotic position has continued for too long and, if it is not dealt with immeoiately, the Government must be responsible for the consequences. If action is not taken in the near future I shall again raise the matter in Parliament 'at the fi'rst opportunity. I trust that funds have been provided for carrying out this work and that it will be put in hand immediately.

A further problem at Tidal River is the provision of a satisfactory water supply fOor the resident staff and visitors to the park. The director's report states-

The present system is the result of a variety of improvisations based on ,the necessity to relate available finance to the current needs of the people, but it is inadequate.

rt is unreasonable to expect staff to put up with the ineffident and unsatisfactory water supply system that exists at Tidal River. This matter also should be given close attention in the immediate future, together with the sewerage works programme.


Education is an' important aspect of national park control. At page 36 of the report, the director states-

The Act requires that provision be made for the" education .and ·enjoyment of visitors to national parks"; but, in the ·absence of a suitable building, -it has not been possible to achieve ,anything substantial in this field.

I appreciate the deske of the director to have suitable buildings erected so that lectures can be given to visitors to the parks not only to highlight the features of the particular parks but also to educate the public in the use of the parks. This has been done on a large scale in other parts of the world.

About two yea'rs ago, I was a guest of the National Parks Authority of Canada and spent five days in the Canadian Rockies, most of which are divided into three large national parks. I was greatly impressed with the extension service, as it is known there. Field naturalists on the staff of the authority conduct evening lectures for thousands of tourists who visit the parks during holiday periods. The lecturer uses films and slides to assist him. The lectures are designed to make the public more aware of the facilities of the parks and-equally important--.;to educate the visitors in the practical use of the parks for the benefit of themselves and the parks.

I hope the Government can provide the director with the necessary assistance to enable him to have suitable buildings erected in our national parks, particularly in those which receive most of the visitors, so that the staff of the service can conduct lectures which, I am sure, would be well received by the public.

I have dealt with the unsatisfactory amenities at Tidal River but perhaps I might add that, after st'riving for thirteen years, lack of finance prevented the authority from overcoming the problem. The Minister should give an assurance today that the matter will be finally dealt with in the near future.

Mr. Wilton.

Wyperfeld National Park, which is a large park in the northern part of the State, causes me some concern. The authority had an arrangement with the previous ranger, who lived only a few miles from the park, but who has died. No residence for a ranger has been constructed within the park. Another 'ranger has been appointed but no proper accommodation is available for him. I am disturbed that this officer has had to live temporarily in a garage which was built several years ago. This state of affairs should not be accepted by the Minister. If any person lived in a garage within the met'ropoli'tan area, the local municipal council would be required by the health laws to take action against him. The Minister should tell the House today whether this problem will be solved immediately or whether the park ranger will continue to live in these unsatisfactory conditions.

There are some problems at Fe'm Tree Gully, Tarra Valley and Bulga national parks. These parks are served by part-time rangers. A woman caretaker is employed on a part~time basis at Tarra Valley. There is an urgent need for accommodation to be built at these parks so that fulltime rangers can be appointed. These parks receive a considerable number of visitors. This is particularly true of Fern Tree Gully National Park where the number of visitors is very high because the public has access to it by fast suburban electric train. Appropriate action is needed in the immediate future.

At page 37 of the report, the director makes the point that, during its thirteen years of existence, the authority made repeated attempts to obtain additional staff to enable it to perform the duties assigned to it under the National Parks Act 1956, but was able to secure Treasury approval for only four technical officers. This is not good enough. The Minister for State Development should take up the matter of staff with the Treasurer and make it clear that, unless additional finance is


forthcoming, the service has no hope of discharging its responsibilities under the Act. There is no point in Ministers saying that there are not sufficient funds available, and that the service must accept second best; that is not a reasonable excuse.

Quite properly, the report deals with the serious problem of fire protection in some detail. The service has appointed a fire-protection officer whose job it will be to prepare and implement fire-protection plans.

Australia is reaching the stage when some attempt at Ministerial level should be made to have serious discussions between the States and the Commonwealth to ascertain whether the Commonwealth Government could enter into agreement with the States for the use of the specialized branches of the armed forces. It seems ridiculous that taxpayers should pay millions of dollars annually to the Federal Government to maintain the three branches of the armed services for the protection of Australian shores when the only extensive loss of life in Australia has been by fire, flood and drought.

Authorities such as the Forests Commission and the National Parks Service must outlay considerable expenditure each year for the hire of commercial aircraft for fire-spotting purposes. At the same time, the armed forces have specialized branches with pilots skilled in flying at low altitude for spotting purposes. It should be possible for these skilled personnel to be used for fire-spotting. The various State ,Ministers should endeavour to ensure that closer cooperation exists with the Federal Government than is now the case. The Federal Government should make a greater practical contribution to the preservation of forests and national parks, and should assist the State authorities that are now in financial difficulties. It is time for the Treasurer to raise this matter at the Premiers Conference. The Federal Government has a real interest in ensuring that the Australian national

parks are developed to the maximum possible degree so that facilities may be provided for the community.

An -ever-increasing number of people visiting tourist resorts come from overseas. Recently, the honorable member for Gisborne spoke on the tourist trade and its future to Australia. No one would disagree that the tourist trade in Victoria is only scratching the surface and really has not yet got off the ground. A current newspaper topic is the development of charter flights in the commercial aircraft industry. A huge upsurge in tourist trade, particularly to Victoria, can be expected, and many of these tourists will visit the national parks. In conjunction with the States, the Federal Government should work out the best way in which financial con-tributions can be made to national parks. The Commonwealth Government will receive a far bigger financial return from this trade than will the States. It has been estimated by well-qualified people in the tourist industry that a tourist will spend $10 a day. A significant part of that sum will find its way into the Federal Treasury in taxation, and very little of it will be returned to the States.

If the Treasurer considers that he is not able to make any substantial increase to the National Parks Service, he should " bat" for the authority in the Federal arena, and the best way to do this is at the Premiers Conference and meetings of the Loan Council. I have raised this matter with my Federal colleagues, who have made it clear that they are in complete agreement with my views and consider that the Federal Government should involve itself to a far grea ter extent in the upkeep of national parks. This will provide a benefit which will flow to the community in general. They believe the development of national parks is not the responsibility of the States alone.

I hope the Minister will indicate the Government's plans for the national parks for the ensuing twelve months. It is clear from the

4518 National Parks (ASSEMBLY.] Service.

report of the National Parks Service that it has insufficient funds. This is unfair to the authority and to the community. I hope the Treasurer will substantially increase the amounts granted to the National Parks Service in the Budget for 1972-73. In all probability, it will be his last Budget and his last opportunity of making a worth-while contribution to this field.

Mr. MITCHELL (Benambra).-The soporific speech of the honorable member for Broadmeadows has not woken up every honorable member to the Government, and it has provided the best panacea for insomnia that the House has ever had put before it. The honorable member was quite right when he said that, for various reasons, the House should take note of th~ report of the National Parks Service for the year 1970-71. This is true, but the honorable member endeavoured to shatter the Government by dynamic thrusts, cuts and witticisms and a manifestation of what he thought was statesmanship. All he did was to put honorable members into a deeper sleep. The once mighty Liberal Party is disintegrating into miserable broken fragments.

The question of national parks is relevant In an Australia ruled by a triumvirate of Sir Frank Packer, Ainslie Gotto and Bob Hawke. Members of the Country Party consider tha t notice should be taken of the report of the Director of National Parks. We have always been in favour of national parks. However, idealism must be tempered with realism, and we have always said that, since the Liberal "city" Government gave a bonus to the late Crosbie Morrison in what could be called the " Crosbie Morrison pension Bill", we would be happy to have more national parks created if they could be looked after properly. However, the national parks are not looked after as they should be.

In his policy' speech prior to the last elections, the 'Premier and Treasurer stated that the National Parks Authority would be reconstituted, but he let us down-not for the first

time-by abolishing the authority and bringing national parks under the co n.tr 0 I of 'virtually one man, Dr. SmIth. I have changed my opinion about Dr. Smith, but however brilliant and ca pable 'a man may be, he cannot bear alone the great burden of national parks. I know that ,the Minister is Dr. Smith's superior, but the honorable gentleman has many other responsibilities in respect of State development. The result is that the responsibility for national parks falls on the shoulders of Dr. Smith, and t~at is not fair. A proper auth?rIty .sho~ld be established along the lInes ImplIed by the Premier and Treasurer.

. Honorable members have preVIOusly heard me speak rather critically ?f the national parks advisory commIttees. They are convenient funk-holes for the Minister. If he wishes to take certain action, his attitude is, "To hell with the advisory committee". However, when it suits him to do so he accepts the advice of a committee. A proper authority should be constituted, and I should like t'O see Claude Austin associated with such a body.

The bulk of the report of the Director of National Parks relates to the lack of finance. I am afraid that na tional parks in Victoria will develop along the lines of Kosciusk'O National Park, which provides a severe warning of what can occur to a national park and how it can be run contrary to the interests of the people of Aus .. tralia. The persons in charge of that park have" wiped" the Happy Jack's Road, which is one of the main thoroughfares for people who wish to enjoy the park, particularly residents of the Upper Murray and the adjacent area in New South Wales who go to fish in Lake Eucumbene.

In Kosciusko National Park there are many acres of noxious weeds, including St. John's wort and blackberries, which have been washed down from Geehi and Groggin. The Nankervises cleared many acres of noxious weeds, but all their work is


disappearing under blackberries which are coming from the Kosciusko National Park.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER (Sir Edgar Tanner).-Order! The honorable member is speaking of a national park which does not come under the control of the Victorian Government.

Mr. MITCHELL.-I quite agree, ~r. Deputy Speaker, but I was pointmg out that the noxious weeds which are washed down the river from this national park are not under control. If Victorian national parks are not properly controlled the threat of noxious weeds will be greater than at Kosciusko National Park. When one protests about the damage being done in Vktoria by noxious weeds from Kosciusko National Park one is told that no money is avaHable. However, the authority concerned is buying land, including 240 acres from a wretched farmer on the New South Wales coast. Similar occurrences will happen in Victoria if a proper authority is not established.

The honorable member for Broadmeadows has pointed out that Victoria is under-supplied with national parks and that at least another four per cent of the land should be set aside for this purpose. However first things must come first. I realiz~ that additional national parks are required b~t neither the Country Party nor i WIll stand for money being spent in this direction at the expense of institutions such as Beechworth Mental Hospital, and other hospitals, schools roads and shire councils throughout ViCtoria. Members of the Country Party do not agree that the dedicated staff of institutions such as Beechworth Mental Hospital should have to work under the oonditions which they have to suffer. Labor Party members would not worry about them, but m~mbers of the Country Party do not WIsh to see people who are afflicted in the'ir minds housed as they 'are inadequately and in squalor at Beechworth and for money to be diverted to the provision of additional national parks for the plutocrats of the trade union movement and of the Liberal

Party to drive around in their Mercedes-Benzes and Rolls Royces. Members of the Country Party will not stand for such happenings.

I have referred previously to the expression " Hands off Hotham ". The people must be helped to enjoy the national parks and should not be excluded from them as they are from Kosciusko National Park. There must not be over-'regulation of the people's activities in the parks, and they must be made welcome; courtesy is cheap. I have previously directed attention to the selfish attitude adopted by "bug hunters", whom the former member for Albert Park referred to as fadists, and who desire the whole of Victoria to be set aside exclusively for their use and not that of the family man and the kiddies who want to have a picnic. At Ben Lomond, in Scotland, the skiers objected to the fur traders using their huts.

The skiers then had Ben Lomond proclaimed as a national park and the wretched fur traders were deprived of their means of livelihood. Honorable members do not want anything like that to happen in Victoria. A substantial increase in staff will be necessary but the State cannot afford it at the moment.

The honorable member for Broadmeadows made a good point when he referred to the· Army rescue teams. Not long ago, I raised in the House the matter of the recent rescues in the Buffalo area. Another aspect in the report that is noteworthy is the hopelessly inadequate provisions for fire fighting. There is one officer to fight fires in 23 or 24 national parks. This worthy gentleman will wander around with a bemused look on his face and a water pistol. The Government will not provide proper fire-fighting equipment. ·Why cannot the Army be brought into this sphere of activity ? Fire-fighting experience would be good training for Army personnel. Some twenty years ago when bad fires were experienced in the Upper Murray district, the Army provided wonderful assistance The service


personnel were good, efficient, and courteous, and with their breakdown outfits, tankers, and so on, rendered valuable service. The Minister will probably inform the House that the Government has a plan whereby in m'Oments of distress in national parks the Army can be brought in.

The honorable member for Broadmeadows referred to education. I once stayed at the Grand Canyon in the United States of America where I listened to one of the best lectures I have ever heard from a United States forests serviceman, which virtually made the Grand Canyon live before my eyes. Why cannot a roster of lecturers be organized at Mount Buffalo? The bug hunters make a big fuss about the national parks and do no real work to fight fires or to train themselves in fire fighting in the national parks which they pretend so much to enjoy. An op'portunity exists for the great and gforious National Parks Association to arrange a roster of lecturers to show pe'Ople how a na tional park can be used.

Recently I raised the matter of education with the Minister of Transport. Crowds of young people, including some from South Australia, regularly visit Mount Buffalo and other areas in the north-east of Victoria. The Wangaratta people want the Inter-capital Daylight express to stop at Wangaratta when school children from South Australia visit the north-east on educational tours. At present they travel on the express but it passes through Wangaratta without stopping. If the Government is sincere about national parks, it can arrange for the Intercapital Daylight express to stop at Wangaratta when this is required for the benefit of interstate children.

The main problems associated with national parks, as referred to by the honorable 'member for Broadmeadows, are finance and staff. With the growing need thr'Oughout Victoria for improved hospital facilities, and so forth, the' State cannot at present afford an increase in the staff

Mr. Mitchell.

of national parks. However, the Government should take notice of some of the 'Other ways in which national parks ,could be assisted without increasing the strain 'On the Treasury.

,Mr. ,BORTHWICK (Minister of Lands) .-The honorable member for Broadmeadows has moved that this House take note of the report of the Director of National Parks f'Or the year 1970-71. The Government believes it is appropriate to debate the report because it marks a vital turning point in the history of the national parks administration in Victoria. I' believe it would have been remiss of the director .if he had not taken this opportunity, at the conclusion of the life of the former National Parks Auth'Ority and the beginning of the new administration-the National Parks Service----directly under the Minister, and consisting of the director and an advisory committee, of reviewing the activities of the two authorities.

The honorable member for Broadmeadows reflected the general feeling of the House when he congratulated and thanked the many people concerned, including permanent heads of departments and private people not associated with public administration, for the services which they have rendered to the State in the fifteen years since 1957. These people, with Dr. Smith as director, broadly established the basis, and to a large degree the public thinking, upon which the de'velopment of national parks in the State has proceeded. The Government and the State can learn much from the experience gained by the former National Parks Authority. I believe all honorable members appreciate the sincerity with which Dr. Smith, in the latter part of the report f'Or the year 1970-71, drew to the attention of the people of Victoria the fact that a change in the method of administration does not necessarily upgrade or uplift the national parks administra tion.


The past fifteen years has seen a growing interest and marked improvement in national parks administration. I do not believe Opposition members or the honorable member for Benambra have denied this assertion. For the information of the House, I shall traverse what has occurred in those fifteen years. The honorable member for Broadmeadows stated that in 1957 Victoria had thirteen national parks comprising a total of 313,000 acres. Today, the State has 24 national parks comprising some 507,000 acres. In 1957, when the National Parks Authority was formed, it had a total staff of eight, including five who were employed in national parks and three at head office. In 1972, despite the claims of shortages of staff, 115 people are employed in the parks and 23 in head office, a total of 138. It is acknowledged that some staff shortages currently exist, particularly in specialist fields on which I shall shortly elaborate.

It is worth noting that when the National Parks Authority was established it had virtually no motor vehicles. Today, the National Parks Service operates 41 vehicles and three boats. In fact, the service has its own tractors at the Fern Tree Gully National Park, in which I am particularly interested. The national parks administration has bought and established within the park a tractor for fire-prevention work. This tractor, together with the other tractors operated by the service and other types of equipment, will be utilized, as needed, in various national parks on fire-prevention work. The statistics that I have quoted illustrate the growing development of the service.

At times, from various statements made, one could infer that no progress has been made in national parks administration in Victoria. Tha t inference would be incorrect and would denigrate the great work of the National Parks Authority in the fifteen years Ifrom ilJ957. Moreover, no director of any department or authority in the history

of State administration could fail to allege some shortages in staff. Similar complaints are made by the Director of Education, the Chairman of the Mental Health Authority, the Chairm'an of the Hospitals and Charities Commission, the Chairman of the Land Conservation Council, and the head of every organization involved in public administration. As he is statutorily required to 'make 'an annual report, the Director of National Parks has, quite fairly, in his conclusions drawn attention to staff shortages. Despite such shortages, there has been sound and solid imp~ovement in upg~ading the service over the years.

The honorable member for Broadmeadows referred to the financial allocations for 1970-71, but it is worth recalling that, in 1957-58, the allocation for works and services amounted to $40,000 and the Government grant .for administration was $8,600. In 1970-71, the ,allocations were, respectively, $218,250 for works and services and $117,000 for administration. What the honorable member did not state was that in addition to those allocations are several other amounts made by way of special grants ,and by administrative direction. For instance, until 1963, access roads and roads within national parks were an exclusive charge against the vote for works and services. However, since 1963, $100,000 a year-in total an amount in excess of $700,000 'Over the intervening years-has been allocated from Country Roads Board funds for works which were previously financed from the funds of the authority. In other words, honorable members can autom,atically add $100,000 to the 1970-71 vote as shown in the director's report. Moreover, the director refers to this in his report, but it was overlooked by the honorable member for Broadmeadows.

Mr. WILTON.-It was not overlooked.


Mr. BORTHWICK.-The honorable member did not mention it. Another important aspect is that the Treasurer has agreed to make regular special grants to specific national parks to enable special projects to be undertaken. Again, these special grants do not appear in the figures mentioned in the report. The Fern Tree Gully National Park, with which I amcl'Osely associated, has received a special allocation of $25,000 a year because of the severe fire problem within the park 'and the adjacent townships. Special grants have been made generously by the Government in an endeavour to 'Overcome the errors of the past by buying back land alienated in the 1890s which should never have been alienated. Approximately $200,000 has been provided to purchase back land adjacent to the Fern Tree Gully National Park. Again these figures are not shown in the annual report, although the allocations are referred to in a general way. In recent years, the Fraser National Park has received an annual grant of $20,000 for a special works programme.

It is interesting to examine the finance made available in 1971-72, which is the year following the report 'at present being debated. The total amount of money available for national park purposes in the current financial year is estimated at $878,000, which is ,$194,000 more than last financial year. Admittedly, the Government has been able to build up the amount because a

,l'Ot of work that has been waiting to be undertaken in national parks is ideally suited for allocation under the Commonwealth rural unemployment 'relief .fund and to date approxim'ately $60,000 has been made available for manual work which the Government has not been able to aff'Ord in the past. More'Over, an additional $20,000 is estimated to be received in park revenues.

The amounts which I previously mentioned include some special grants which have been made by the Treasurer for special and

large projects. The special grants include a sum of money to provide sewerage at Tidal River, which has been a pressing problem because 'Of the' tremendous growth in the number of people holidaying in the area.

,This park has a different problem in that most of the visitors are not day visitors, but remain in the park for a period on holidays in either the huts or the camping area. I cannot quote the precise amount of money which has been provided by the Treasurer because tenders were invited only last week-end. The money is guaranteed and is in excess of the figure mentioned by the honorable member for Broadmeadows. I do not propose to state the estimated cost of the work bec-a use the job is at present 'Open for tenders.

It is alsO' worth while examining the subject of national park rangers and their accommodation. In 1957, there were five national park rangers whereas today there are 29 rangers and assistants, plus 86 other park employees. For some years, the authority, and now the service, has been conducting ranger-training courses and it is interesting to note the high calibre of applicants for the course in the past twelve months or so.

MR. WILTON.-If the facilities are improved, a better class of person will apply.

Mr. BORTHWICK.-Concerning facilities, in his report the director refers to the residence needed f<or the park ranger at Mount Buffalo. In fact, a contract for the construction of the residence has been signed during this financial year. The residence is relatively expensive because of the difficult terrain in the area and the necessity for the design to withstand alpine climates. A contract for approximately $24,000 has been signed for the residence. Finance has also been approved for the erection 'Of a residence 'at the Wyperfeld National Park and tenders are 'about to be called. At Kiata, near the Little Desert National Park, the


service has recently purchased a property quite cheaply and with some expenditure it can be made 'a suitable ranger's residence. Another improvement which is under way and which is of interest to day trippers from Melbourne is a new toilet block at the Kinglake National Park.

Recently, Public Service Board inspectors have been surveying the needs of the National Parks Service with particular reference to the necessity for the appointment of a resources and planning officer. It is the Government's view that the service needs this officer and currently a report is before the Public Service Board, which I hope contains a strong recommendation for the appointment of such an officer.

The honorable member for Broadmeadows mentioned an important p-art of the new administration, but apparently the honorable -member is unaware of the establishment of the National Parks Service Advisory Committee. As required under the Act, the committee has been appointed and is functioning. Last Thursday, it was my good fortune to spend a half day with the committee at the ,Fern Tree Gully National Park. The Minister for State Development and the Director of National Parks should be congratulated on the calibre of the 'men they have appointed to the advisory committee. The committee is required to report to the Minister, and its report must be tabled in Parliament. Unlike the former National Parks Authority, which comprised mainly permanent heads of departments, the new advisory committee is made up of men who are outstanding in fields outside public administration. The exception is the chairman, who is outstanding within public administration.

Mr. MITCHELL. - Mr. Speaker, I direct attention state of the House.

A quorum was formed.

Deputy to the

Mr. BORTHWICK.-The com-mittee includes Dr. Calder of the Faculty of Botany at the University of Melbourne, and Dr. Tim Ealey of the Faculty of Zoology at Monash University. These two eminent persons in the field have been appointed by the Minister after consultation with the National Parks Association of Victoria and the Land Conservation Council. The committee also includes Mr. Brookes, who is well known in forestry circles with Australian Paper Manufacturers Limited. Another member is Mr. Dewar W. Goode, who was the only non-pUblic administrator on the former National Parks Authority, and his appointment provides some continuity from the -old authority to the new service. Councillor Cooper, of Warburton, who represents municipalities on the committee, is a man with a long interest in and understanding of na tiona I parks. Mr. Merrett, the permanent head of the Department of State Development, is an ex-officio member of the new committee.

The chairman is the Director of National Parks, Dr. Leonard Smith. I doubt whether the Government has ever appointed a more high-powered or better-qualified committee in any field. The 'advisory committee is already functioning and to my knowledge has surveyed three of the State's national parks. As one who travelled with them in a four-wheel-drive vehicle last Thursday, I know that they are thorough, zealous and keenly interested in the task which has been allotted to them by the Minister in the interests of the people of Victoria.

The honorable member referred to the operation of the Land Conservation Council and suggested that in some way the Government should make every effort to hasten its determinations. I remind the House that a measure entitled the Land Resources Bill, providing for a complete study of public land areas to be made, was considered by Parliament in 1969. The study was to be limited to a period of four years, and


the limitation of time drew the most bitter challenge from members of the Opposition and other persons in the community who were interested in the administration of public lands. It was as a result of that criticism and because of a reconsideration of the problem that the Government decided not to impose a time limit on the studies of the Land Conservation Council.

From my experience as IMinister of Lands during the first year of the operations of the council, J believe that to pressurize that body into making hasty decisions merely for the sake of the Government's obtaining credit, or a Minister having a national park named after him, is to act in a manner which is absolutely contrary to the principle, the theory and the ideals upon which the decision to establish the council was based. I reject the suggestion.

At present, the Land Conservation Council has five very highly qualified research officers on its staff. Four of them are heading teams which are carrying out land studies in the Glenelg River area, the Shire of Rosedale, the most important central zone about ,60 miles from the General Post Office, and an area to the far north-east. The fifth is to head a future inquiry, possibly into the far north-western section of the State. It is believed the reports of the first study groups will be made available to the public by about the middle of this year.

In his policy speech in 1970 the Premier stated the Government's intentions on reservations. The Victorian Government is the only Government in the Commonwealth which has placed its policy on record and expressed its desire for proper studies to be carried out by a body such as the Land Conservation Council to enable at least 5 per cent of the total area of the State to be specially reserved in the interests of the community. The Government stands by that policy today.

Mr. Borthwick.

In respect of national parks which are now surrounded by Crown land it is simple merely to add another 10,000 or 20,000 acres, but the Government is not prepared to adopt such rule of thumb measures. Parklands will be increased only after the present scientific studies are completed. Those studies are being carried out by the council with the assistance of private botanists and university people, and I believe the recommendations that will flow from them will be of immense benefit to the people of the State.

The honorable member for Broadmeadows mentioned the establishment of a grand education central building at Tidal River, but I think more could be achieved at very much less cost if the committees of management of national parks labelled Australian trees and flora in the parks. An example of this is to be found in travelling along the Alpine Way, where the Forests Commission has labelled trees. Travellers wonder what type of tree they are observing and, seeing the label, they stop and read it. This affords them the opportunity of becoming familiar with our native vegetation.

The honorable member for Benambra misled the House concerning the duties of fire officers of the National Parks Service. The honorable member, who might be described as "the old man of the mountains "-and I in no way mean to be disparagingknows quite well, as he hikes through Hotham with his rucksack on his back, that fire fighting is carried out by highly skilled officers and employees of the Forests Commission. Those employees also engage in fire suppression. ,In both of these duties, the Country Fire Authority and its volunteers render tremendous assistance.

The fire officer within the National Parks Service is responsible for the planning of fire prevention measures for national parks. I have had experience of one national park


-Fern Tree Gully National Parkwhich I believe has been burnt out more than any other. Fire prevention plans there are extremely good and, in common with other national parks, the plans are implemented under the guidance of the National Parks Service fire officer. Much of the work in that park is financed by the authority but carried out by the Forests Commission.

The Government has welcomed this debate. It has proOvided the House with an opportunity of considering the performance of the old National Parks Authority. The debate has enabled the Government to refer to the regular development and improvement of national parks administration, the Government's complete understanding and feeling for the expansion of national parks administration, the Land CoOnservation Council, and the contribution that it will make in the improvement of national parks. The Government thanks the honorable members for Broadmeadows and Benambra for their constructive eontributions.

-Mr. DOUBE (Albert Park).-I join the Minister of Lands in congratulating the honorable member for Broadmeadows on raising this matter and thus affording honorable members the opportunity of debating the report of the National Parks Service.

Today, human society is plagued by many serious problems, but none is more serious or important than that oOf eonserving our parklands and natural forests and the creatures which inhabit them.

The Minister has pointed out that the position has been improved in the 15, 16 or 17 years during which the Government has been in office, but it is clear that sufficient money is not being made available to enable the National Parks Service to carry out its necessary function.

This is tragic, for in this matter time is not on our side. Every hour, day, week or month that the task of acquiring additional areas of land for use as national parks is delayed makes it more probable that land which is acquired will not be in its natural state. Procrastination will lead to a disaster.

The Government has indicated that it has reached the limit of its resources and that the Commonwealth Government apparently regards the whole question as being one for the State to deal with. It is regrettable that people who are in high places and who collect the bulk of our revenue are not prepared to regard this problem as one of concern to the whole 'of the country. It cannot be said that national parks in Victoria are not of interest to people in other States, just as it cannot be said that Victorians are not interested in national parks in other States.

A commentary on the sadness of the present situation is to be found in a passage at page 35 of the report, which states-

While it was always recognised that the Government had many demands on its purse, the authority sought constantly to have more money made available for works and services within national parks, and it is true that the allocations were increased. But the amount allocated has been inadequate to cope with the needs which existed when the authority was established, let alone keep abreast of the growing demands arising from the increased use of the national parks by the people.

It is obvious that the Commonwealth Government is unwilling to concern itself with the protection of our flora and fauna by providing sufficient funds, toO enable extra reservations of land toO be made.

The report does not have much to say about the National Parks Act which in section 3 provides that the objects of the Act are (a) to provide for the control of national parks, and (b) to pr.otect and preserve indigenous plant and animal wildlife and features of special scientific or historical interest in national parks.


Although, admittedly, I have not read the report as closely as I might have done, I am disappointed that I found no re.ference to that part of the authority's work concerned with the preservation of indigenous plants, animals, and wildlife. In an article in the National Times of 22nd-27th November, 1971, the last of a series, Vincent Smith stated-

While it is fine to reserve areas for wildlife, as our human population grows so does our demand for recreation areas-both close to the cities for week-end jaunts ,and far into the bush for longer periods. American conservationists are now finding a growing problem in the competition between people and native animals for wilderness areas.

Since many Austr,alian wild animals from the biggest (k'angaroo) down to the tiny marsupial mice and others have highly specialized habitat requirements-just as does the multiplying urban Australian-this competition factor may begin to affect our conservation programmes sooner than. we think. The lack of pUblicity given to the need to preserve our flora and fauna is regrettable. Consideration should be given now to the establishment of parks which can be described as wilderness areas. The honorable member for Benambra gets angry when this is suggested. He says that this is merely leaving an area for the bugs and so 'On which inhabit it, but this is an important matter. Unless wilderness areas are established, much .of our precious flora and fauna will be destroyed. As honorable members are aware, many Australian animals are unique. There are few marsupials anywhere else in the world, and Australia has an extraordinarily large variety of them.

Although European settlement in Victoria is less than 160 years old, a large number of these creatures have already disappeared and the only way to ensure the continued existence of many of them is to set aside reserves exclusively for them. The areas and the creatures themselves should be studied so that their precise requirements are known. Areas should be set aside to provide the environment, including the predators and everything else, necessary

Mr. Doube.

for the survival of these creatures. In Victoria, birds such as the Cape Barron goose are ,close to disappearing. Some efforts to preserve this bird have been made but ,when one compares the enormous number here 150 years ago and the very few here now the danger to its existence can be realized. The same applies to a specialized animal which has been noticed on only very few occasions in the Mount Hotham area-the mountain pigmy-possum. This is also true 'Of Leadbeater's possum which inhabits the Gippsland area but .only very sparsely now, and the smokey mouse, which inhabits the Otways. These animals are threatened with extinction. I am told that another creature which is peculiar to Vict.oria, the broad-toothed rat, is another rare animal which is likely to disappear.

Many of these quite extraordinary little creatures were given offensive names by the early settlers who had experience only of European animals. When the broad-toothed rat or the pouched mouse is mentioned, people think of something unattractive 'Or of pests. These unattractive names lead to people having no proper appreciati'On of ,the intricacy of the life 'Of the animals or of their beauty. Birds such as the ground par.rot, the helmeted honeyeater, the plaIns wanderer and the turquoise parrot are threatened with extinction. I shall not give the whole list of animals, birds and plants which are in danger of disappearing, but most honorable members would agree that Parliament has a duty to future generations and to the creatures themselves to see that they continue to exist.

'I make a plea that the National Parks Service set up wilderness areas where human beings are not permitted except for special purposes. Such a purpose would be to produce films of these unique creatures. This could be, perhaps, another form of tourism. Although it would not be possible for all the people of the world to


come here, they could see films of these extraordinary animals, and the State would earn money from the film rights. Most honorable members have seen excellent films produced by Walt Disney and other producers which give an almost complete understanding of particular animals. One does not have to tramp around the habitats of these creatures to find out what they are like. Having seen these films, I am satisfied, and I do not want to wander into the areas where the animals exist and so place their existence in jeopardy.

I suggest to the Minister that these wilderness areas should be completely protected from human beings except for the purposes I have mentioned. Animals which are native to Australia cannot be seen anywhere else in the world because Australia was cut off from the rest of the world for so long. This continent had no predators until the dingo came here 30,000 years ago.

Mr. ROSSITER.-How did the dingo get here?

Mr. DOUBE.-The Minister is being facetious.

Mr. ROSSITER.-I am seeking information and greater knowledge.

Mr. DOUBE.-I refer the honorable gentleman to the Australian Encyclopaedia and to the alphabetical section headed "D", where he can find out for himself. One theory is that the dingo came to Australia with the Aboriginal people from islands to the north which were then connected with Australia by a thin land bridge.

Mr. TREWIN.-Thirty thousand years ago?

Mr. DOUBE.-Give or take a week or two! It is regrettable that more attention has not been given to the establishment of wilderness areas. [f they are not created soon, many unique and specialized creatures will die out. Victoria has the opportunity of setting up these areas which

could be paid for by the production, exhibition, and export of films of the creatures living in them.

Although it may not be a national park, there is a small area close to Port Fairy which is a sanctuary for native birds and animals. I was astounded to see the number of people walking through the sandhills in this area, breaking down the burrows of mutton birds. There is no sign to indicate that the area is a mutton bird breeding ground. Port Fairy has many visitors, and it is tragic that people do not keep to the paths through this area, even though there are no notices requiring them to do S'O. People sink to their knees in the soft sand in which these burrows are located.

I am grateful to the honorable member for Broadmeadows for providing the opportunity of discussing this very important matter.

On the motion of Mr. SCANLAN (Oakleigh) , the debate was adjourned.

It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until next day.

FIREARMS (AMENDMENT) BILL. The debate (adjourned from March

7) on the motion ·of Mr. Hamer (Chief Secretary) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

Mr. WILKES (Northcote).-In spite of its problems with Canberra, the Government must be given credit for the devious methods it employs to raise money. This Bill is no exception to the rule. The figures given by the various authorities about ,firearms and shooters in this State 'indicate that, in round figures, the revenue to 'be raised if this Bill becomes law will be worth $1'5 million to the Government. I am asked where the money will go. It will go to provide something that the Government, not the shooters of this State, is responsible f.or providing.

There is a big disparity between the number of duck shooters' licences issued each year and the number of

4528 Firearms [ASSEMBLY.] (Amendment) Bill.

sporting shooters. In 1966, there were about 150,000 shot-guns in Victoria, so it is reasonable to assume that there would now be in excess of 200,000.

IMr. HAMER.-Nobody has counted them.

·Mr. WILKES.-Of course not, but I will show the Chief Secretary how the number can be calculated. In 1964, there were 180,000 ·22 rifles, so it is likely that there would be more than 250,000 in circulation in Victoria today. According to a circular from the ISporting Shooters Association of Australia---!I am prepared to lay it on the table-there are 750,000 shooting sportsmen in the State at present. It is estimated that there are 200,000 shot-guns and 250,000 rifles, but only 33,000 licences to shoot ducks were issued in 1971. The Government does not charge a fisherman a licence merely because he has a fishing rod in his house, but it intends to charge a person for a firearm licence if he possesses a shot-gun or a rifle.

The Government is going beyond what was recommended in 1964 by the Statute Law Revision Committee because it is obtaining insufficient revenue from duck shooters' licences. When the legislation relating to the imposition of duck shooters' licences was before the House honorable members were assured that the revenue would be used for the propagation of duck. I do not know why the Government does not protect fauna instead of worrying about issuing licences to shoot it.

Under this Bill it will be necessary to obtain a licence to shoot not only ducks but also quail and deer. This is being done to raise revenue which should be provided by the Government from other sources. I agree with the sentiments expressed by the honorable member for Albert Park, who spoke about the need to protect fauna. It is true that certain species of duck are protected in this

State, but apparently it is now proposed to allow a person to buy a licence to shoot deer at will. Legislation such as this operates in the reverse direction from any known policies on conservation. One will be able to obtain a licence to shoot deer at any time provided that one fulfils the requirements laid down in the Act.

IMr. HAMER.-One can do that now.

Mr. WIL'KES.-The position ·will not be improved by imposing a charge for a licence; that will not conserve deer. I can unders tand a farmer in the rice belt along the Wakool protecting his crops from invasion by duck. He can obtain a permit and is not charged for the licensing of his gun because he is entitled to protect his means of livelihood.

The history of firearm legislation is worth examining. In 1963, for example, the Statute Law Revision Committee recommended to Parliament that the provisions relating to firearms in the Police Offences Act should be put into a separate Act. The Government conceded the point, and in 1964 introduced a Bill which became the Firearms Act, and it included the firearms provisions from the Police Offences Act and certain other provisions.

On two or three occasions since 1964, when legislation relating to firearms has been before Parliament, the Chief Secretary of the day recognized the importance of the measures and referred them to the Statute Law Revision Committee for considera tion. Except for two minor amendments to the ·Firearms Act, in 1970 and 1971, this is the only occasion when proposed amendments to the Act have not been referred to the Statute Law Revision Committee for proper consideration. The same persons who gave evidence before the Government's committee on firearms could have given evidence to the all-party Statute Law Revision

Firearms [28 MARCH, 1972.] (Amendment) Bill. 4529

Committee. When it suits the Government to rely on that committee for advice and an impartial view it does so, but when it does not suit it to accept the advice of a committee such as the Statute Law Revision Committee, it appoints a Liberal Party committee to obtain a biased opinion. This measure is the result; it represents the policy of the Liberal Party.

The reports of the Statute Law Revision Committee in 1964, 1965 and 1966 were clear. The Bills which were the subject of those reports were examined by that committee. Why not on this occasion? Is the Statute Law Revision Committee not competent to examine this Bill? A former Chief Secretary undoubtedly would have referred the Bill to that committee because of its members' experience in examining the provisions of the 'Firearms Act. I should have thought it would be normal practice for the Government to !efer such a measure to the commIttee, but it prefers to rely on the opinion of a committee of the Liberal Party.

In explaining this Bill, the IMinister said-

This Bill has several important objectives. It breaks new ground in the control of firearms in Victoria, and in doing so adopts new principles.

The objectives are fourfold: Firstly, to control .the use of all types of firearms in the State .through a new system of shooters' licences--

The SPEAKER (Sir Vernon Christie).-Order! From what is the honorable member reading?

,Mr. WILKES.---I am quoting from the Minister's second-reading notes.

The SPEAKER.-I suggest that the honorable member should quote from Hansard.

Mr. WILKES.-This will be in Hansard.

The SPEAKER.-Not necessarily. The honorable member should quote from Hansard.

Mr. WILKES.-I submit that the Minister's notes are in Hansard in this instance.

The SPEAKER.-The record of this House is Hansard. I suggest that, if the honorable member wishes to quote from the record of this House, he should quote from Hansard.

Mr. WILKES.-Instead of doing that, I should like to quote ,from notes which the IMinister read when he was addreSSing the House.

The SPEAKER.-Order! I have pointed out to the honorable member that notes read to the House are not Hansard.

.Mr. WILKES.-:J did not say they were.

The S'PEAKER.-I invite the honorable member to quote from Hansard, not from notes.

Mr. WILKES.-There is no difference between my quoting from these notes and quoting from a letter. I am not quoting from Hansard; I am disregarding Hansard.

The SPEAKER.-It should be plain to the Deputy Leader of the Opposition that the record of this House is Hansard and that the second-reading notes are not necessarily the same as the speech of the :Minister.

Mr. WILKES.-In future, the Opposition will be forced to take some action when Ministers read from notes in this House.

The SPEAKER.-Order! The honorable member should proceed with his speech.

Mr. WILKES.-We are not satisfied.

The SPEAKER.-If the honorable member thinks he is reflecting on the Chair, he should withdraw the remark. 'If he is not reflecting on the Chair he should reflect on what he said. 'The honorable member is bound by my ruling on the question of Hansard and should abide by it.

,Mr. WILKES.-I do not think I am reflecting on the Chair.

4530 Firearms [Af~EMBLY .J (Amendment) Bill.

As recorded as page 3962 of Hansard, No. 14, on 7th 'March, 1972, the Chief Secretary stated-

The objectives are fourfold = Firstly, to control the use of all types of firearms in the State through a new system of shooters' licences; secondly, to give better protection to farmers and public authorities against vandalism ...

I doubt whether it will have that effect, and ,I doubt whether there will be any control through this measure over the illegal use of firearms. The IMinister has greater faith than I have in the Bill. He also said-... and fourthly, to raise the standard of behaviour and training among sporting arms users.

It may do that because sporting bodies will receive some financial assistance under this Bill. The honorable gentleman continued-

At present, the control of firearms in Victoria is limited to strict supervision of pistols and high-power centre-fire rifles.

An important change is proposed; at present, it is necessary to obtain a firearm certificate to use a rifle with a bore in excess of . 22. Under this Bill the provisions of a firearm certificate will still apply to the issuing of a pistol licence, and so they should.

.Members of the Opposition are concerned about the number of pistols, ·22 rifles, sawn-off shot-guns and shot-guns which are used in armed holdups in and around M'elbourne. In answer to questions on notice, the Chief Secretary stated that 2,558 firearm permits were issued in 1970 for highpowered rifles whereas 2,955 permits were issued in 1971. In 1970, 11,904 permits were issued for pistols, and 12,605 in 1971. The Statute 'Law Revision Committee examined the procedure adopted in issuing a fire·arm certificate. It was suggested by the police that it would take a policeman three hours properly to examine all aspects of an application for a firearm certificate for a highpowered rifle. ru was also suggested

Mr. Wilkes.

that the cost of that operation 'would be greater than the revenue obtained from the issue of the permit.

I maintain that some control should be exercised over high-powered rifles. After many years the Government agrees that that should be done. It is proposed that control over the use of firearms will be exercised by the issuing oOf a special type of licence. Before he obtains a licence a person must fill in an application form ·and suppo·rt it by a statutory declaration. This licence will 'apply to a shot-gun or a pea rifle. Presumably the highpowered rifle is already covered by a firearm certificate. In other words, the firearm certificate is to be replaced by a system of licensing shooters.

It has been estimated that there are 750,000 sportsmen in Victoria who use firearms but there are only 200,000 shot-guns 'and 250,000 rifles, so I wonder what type of firearm some people use. It cannot be denied that this Bill will be a lucrative way of raising revenue, but for examining 750,000 applications the police will get only 15 per cent of that revenue. In 'my opinion a new department of the Police Force will have to be established to handle these applications. E.ven though the application forms will be supported by statutory declarations, the particulars on the form will have to be verified and checked. This will take a considerable amount of time and actually has nothing to do with the job that is expected of the policeman in Victoria. The verification of application forms ought toO be carried out by another authority. It is the responsibility of the Police Force to ensure that small-arms, ·22 rifles and shotguns 'are not used indiscriminately or by criminals. If this Bill could guarantee that, it would be worth while, but all it will achieve will be to ensure that a person must have a certificate -issued by the police before he purchases ,a firearm. A family of a father and .four sons might have only one gun between


them. However, each son will need a certificate and the father will have to lodge an applioation as the owner of the firearm, irrespective of whether or not he uses it. That is discrimination, but members of the Opposition would agree with it if they could be assured that it was in the best interests of controlling the use of firearms. However, we are not satisfied 'On that aspect.

Other clauses of the Bill exempt primary producers .from the need to pay for licences. I do not suggest that a farmer should not have the right to have a shot-gun or a rifle on his property; it is virtually a tool of trade. However, I question the definition of primary producer in the Bill. M,any honorable members claim to be primary producers and will gain exemption from fees under the Bill, but some of them are not in fact primary producers in the strict usage of the term. The Government has had this Bill drafted hastily and has not given sufficient consideration to its ramifications. The definition of primary producer should be more specific. It has been suggested that a bee keeper will be entitled to own a shot-gun without obtaining a perm'it.

MR. HAMER.-Without paying a fee.

Mr. WILKES.-That is so. WHI he use it to shoot the bees or to shoot someone who is attempting to t'ake honey from his hives? These matters should have been examined by the Government. Instead, the Go'vernment is attempting with indecent haste to get the legislation onto the statute-book and it has overlooked ·many important ·matters.

I suggest to the Chief Secretary that the Bill ought to be examined and reported upon by the Statute Law Revision Committee. If the Chief Secretary rejects that suggestionhis predecessor did not with a previous Bill-I can only assume that the honorable gentleman does not want advice from a committee of this Parliament on an 'important Bill

which is designed primarily to control the use of firearms. On a previous occasion the Statute Law ReVISIon Committee suggested that there ought to be a system of licensing shooters-I support thatbut the way in which shooters are to be licensed ought to' be made more explicit than it is in this Bill.

I can understand why the Bill has been supported by the SpOorting Shooters Association and other organizations interested in firearms. The Sporting Shooters Association is more concerned about the propagatiDn of species ·and the protection of animals than are many Government supporters. I am not suggesting that the Sporting Shooters Association has adopted an indiscriminate attitude in supporting the Bill because my experience on the Statute Law Revision Committee leads me to believe that the members of that association adopt a responsible attitude towards training young people in the use of firearms. In fact, the Bill provides for the ,issue of a special licence to enable people under eighteen years of age to be taught to use firearms. This is 'a good provision. ,However, many other aspects have been overlooked by the Government in its haste to get legislation onto the statute-book. In the interests Df ensuring that the use 'Of firearms is properly cOon trolled, the Bill ought to be referred to the Statute Law Revision CDmmittee or taken back to a special committee of the Liberal Party to enable some of the 'anomaHes to be examined. If a criminal wants 'a gun he will get one irrespective of what legislation is on the statute-book. It is not possible to prevent criminals frOom using firearms, but it is possible to prevent people who are not criminals from using them indiscriminately, particularly in rural areas where considerable losses have been c.aused to farmers.

The Bill will go some way towards overcoming some Df these difficulties, provided that sufficient inspectors are appointed to police its provisions.


In future if a person is found with ~ gun he will have to produce a licence for it. Legislation already exists to deal with a person who trespasses on fa farm whils.t he has a firearm in his possessIon, and this Bill goes further. In it the emphasis is not so much on whether a person is trespassing but more on whether he is carrying a gun and has paid a licence fee of $2. At present a person does not need a licence to shoot deer or quail in Victoria, but in future suitably endorsed licences will be necessary.

This is a revenue Bill, and according to the Chief Secretary a 'maximum of 15 per cent of the licen.ce fees will be retained by the ChIef Commissioner of Police for administrative expenses. All of that money, and probably more, will be required to administer the prov-isions of the Bill. Perhaps the issuing of licences could be diversified and they could be issued from other places as well as from police stations. However, a considerable amount of the time of members of the Police ,Force will be spent in issuing licences, ~n? in my opinion the Chief Comm'lssloner IS entitled to the 15 per cent, or even more, to 'meet administrative expenses. The remaining 85 per cent of the revenue received from licence fees will be paid into a special account in the Treasury entitled the Wildlife Management Fund and will be used exclusively for enforcing the provisions of the Bill, for the purchase ,and development of wildlife reserves and s'anctuaries, and for research into the conservation of wildlife. I'll my opinion approlximately $1 million a year will be paid into the fund and this will be a tremendous boost to the conservation of wildlife.

However, I still contend that the Chief Secretary should refer the Bill to the Statute Law Revision Committee to enable that committee to examine its ramifications with particular reference to shooters' licences and permits so that

Mr. Wilkes.

honorable ,members may be assured that the right type of legislation will be placed on the statute-book.

Mr. WHITING (Mildura).-This Bill represents a major step forward in the enactment of legislation relating to the use of firearms in Victoria. It is of considerable interest to members of the Country Party and to other 'members representing country electorates, because in the main firearms are used in rural areas. The Bill appears to cover most of the situations that members of the Country Party and organizations throughout the State had hoped would be covered. Except f.or a number of administrative problems, we believe the general principle of the Bill is sound.

The use of pistols is adequately covered both in previous legislation and in the Bill but, like the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, I wonder how a person who wants a firearm for illegal purposes will be prevented from obtaining one. The Government hopes the Bill will have some effect in preventing unworthy people from obtaining firearms, but I doubt very much whether this objective will be achieved. Ua person is determined to obtain and use a firearm for illegal purposes, no legislation will prevent him from doing so. I only hope that by the 'appointment of more members to the Police Force or by some other means there will be a reduction in the use of firearms for crime. However, there is no indication, particularly in view of the number of armed holdups that have occurred in the metropolitan area, that the Bill will achieve that result.

During the initial stages of administration, additional work will be thrown on to members of the Police Force. It is obvious that the majority of people who possess firearms will abide by the law and will apply for a shooter's licence. The procedure will then have to be followed of having the licences endorsed to use a shotgun, a pea rifle. or a high-powered rifle, or any combination of those


three categories. The Chief Commissioner of Police, or his representative, will then have to carry out the functions required by the Bill, namely, to check the information on the statutory declaration to ensure that the applicant is not under the age of eighteen years; that the applicant is of good character and has not been convicted on an indictable offence; and that the applicant has good reason to possess the shot-gun or pea rifle.

This provIsIon raises some doubts in the minds of the members of the Country Party. Serious differences of opinion can be expressed by members '0f the Police Force throughout the State on what is a good reason for possessing a firearm. It has been stated that possibly if a person declares that he requires a -firearm, particularly a high-powered rifle, for sporting purposes, this may be considered by one police officer, resident in a particular district, n'0t to be a good enough reason and therefore he will decline to issue a licence. In another part of the State, a police officer may have a different point of view and say that the reason given is legitimate. Admittedly, there are p~ovisions for appeal by a person who is refused a licence or a permit under the legislation. Unless police '0fficers are briefed '0n how to apply this provision, lack of uniformity could be embarrassing to the Police Force, and indeed to the Government.

As well as the three requirements, to which I have referred the police officer has to be satisfied that the applicant is not otherwise unfitted to be entrusted with the handling, use and care of shot-guns or pea rifles. Obviously mentally ill persons are unfit persons, but here again there is room for varying decisions on whether a shooter's licence should be issued. The requirements of the Bill will mean a tremendous amount of extra work for the smaller police stations which may be manned by only one or two members of the force. When

the Bill is proclaimed, those stations could receive from 100 to 200 or 300 applications.

Sir HENRY BOL TE.-A police officer at a small station is in a better position t'0 know the applicants than officers at large stations.

Mr. WHITING.-I agree with the Premier, but time will be taken in issuing licences. As the Deputy Leader of the Opposition pointed out, from evidence given to the Statute Law Revision Committee when it was investigating a previous Bill on the registration of firearms, the issuing of shooters' licences would take a period '0f time. Three quarters of an hour was the time mentioned; this estimate is not too generous, particularly when a police officer is doing his job thoroughly in dealing with an application from a person he does not know. This situation must arise even at a small station. Police stations in the border areas will be under more pressure than stations which, because of their size, have more staff.

The Country Party suggests that some other person should be appointed for this purpose. As an illustration, I refer to the fact that some time ag'0 members of the Police Force were required to compile statistical returns of agricultural production, but this information is now transmitted by mail. The Country Party appreciates that shooters' licences cannot be issued as easily as this but such a system should be investigated so that when the Act is p~oclaimed there will not be an avalanche of applications for shooters' licences. Unfortunately, someone will be disappointed if he wants to use a -firearm at a particular time and has not had a licence issued within the time available. I presume that a period of grace will apply, but even this may not be as effective as honorable members hope.

One of the other provisions in the Bill is that the revenue from the issue of licences will be paid into the


Wildlife Management Fund. Can the Fisheries and Wildlife Branch use this money without employing more staff than it has at the moment?

Mr. WILKEs.-Does the honorable member object to that?

Mr. WHITING.-No, I agree it is a very good idea that additional staff should be appointed by the Fisheries and Wildlife Branch. The Country Party suggests to the Government, and particularly to the Director of Fisheries and Wildlife, that the branch should be divided. The fisheries section--

The SPEAKER (Sir Vernon Christie ).-The honorable member should keep within the ambit of the Bill.

Mr. WHITING.-I am pointing out that there could be difficulties for the officers who will be administering the Wildlife Management Fund. Although members of the Country Party do not disagree that some of the money, apart from administration costs, should be spent for this purpose, we believe a considerable burden will be thrown On the branch, which will have to make additional appointments to cope with the effective expenditure of this money. We realize that the money can be easily spent, but whether it is spent effectively is another matter, and this aspect should be thoroughly investigated. The Fisheries and Wildlife Branch can achieve much with the revenue derived from the basic shooter's licence, whereas another section is interested in fauna or game and would like most of the money received from licence fees spent in that field. Whether this can be done is uncertain; doubtless this aspect will be looked at in due course.

At one stage the suggestion was made that the sale of all firearms, including second-hand firearms, should be channelled through licensed gun dealers. The argument in favour of this proposal is that a person with

a shooter's licence can purchase a firearm from a licensed gun dealer but there is nothing to prevent him from selling it to a person who does not possess a licence. A person ,who wished to use a firearm for an illegal purpose would have little difficulty in obtaining one. The Country Party acknowledges that there could be problems with a requirement that second-hand 'firearms should be sold through licensed gun dealers, but this could have the effect of restricting the sale of second-hand firearms to persons who did not possess shooter's licences. It could be a requirement that before a licensed gun dealer agreed to the transaction, the purchaser of a second-hand ,firearm must produce a shooter's licence. This would provide some control. Another aspect would be that the licensed gun dealer would en ter in the register details of the firearm sold, thus providing a reasonably up-to-date record.

The farm permit provisions appear to be quite satisfactory. Although there will be some problems in this field, members of the Country Party hope these provisions will be implemented expeditiously. Problems could arise for a primary producer who resides in a town away from his property. The Bill covers the situation where he travels from one property to another, but if the primary producer lives in a town and travels to and from his farm each day, it is not certain that he is covered by the issue of a farm permit. The Country Party believes this can be clarified in due course.

The provision for the issue of a junior permit is a very good one. As the Deputy Leader of the Opposition said, this aspect of shooting should be encouraged because if persons are to use firearms, and are adequately trained at a reasonably young age, the chances are they will probably be safe users of firearms at a later age. They will be more proficient than young people who have had no


instruction but who obtain a shooter's licence, purchase a firearm, and then use it. Unfortunately, many such persons use firearms.

I mentioned earlier the appeal provisions. The Country Party believes that these are adequate at this stage, although there may be a need to make minor amendments later.

In his second-reading speech, the Chief Secretary stated that stamps permitting the taking of duck, quail and deer would have to be affixed to the basic shooter's licence. The Chief Secretary mentioned that negotiations were proceeding with the object of enabling shooters to purchase the stamps at post offices throughout the State. I presume that this aspect has been thoroughly investigated, and I should like to know later whether these facilities will be available. If this position is not to apply, shooters could be faced with a similar problem to that faced by fishermen on the issue of inland fishing licences, which are sold through sports shops and stores. During holiday periods the proprietors of those stores can be snowed under with applications for fishing licences. They receive little remuneration in return. In fact, their main business of selling fishing gear and sporting rifles or other firearms is seriously interrupted. If provision has not been ·made for the sale of these stamps through post offices throughout the State, this problem could arise. The Country Party would like to hear the Chief Secretary announce that the Commonwealth has agreed to this proposal.

Members of the Country Party believe that there should be provision for the issue of permits similar to the farm permit or what could be termed a professional exemption. We have in mind veterinary surgeons and stock inspectors who are required from time to time to destroy injured animals. They have to use firearms in a number of situations, but there does not appear to be a provision in the Bill to cover them. The farm

permit may apply in some instances but the Country Party would like to have the point clarified. It may be possible for these people to be given a permit or an exemption when their work is obviously going to require the use of a firearm .from time to time. In some instances a pistol is used but on other occasions a rifle or a shot-gun is necessary.

A suggestion was made that a shooter should be required to show his licence to a gun dealer before purchasing ammunition, a procedure which would ensure that a person who did not hold a shooter's licence was not allow'ed to obtain ammunition. This might create problems, because people licensed to sell ammunition might continually have to check the shooter's licence of a person who applied to purchase ammunition. Many enthusiastic shooters make their own ammunition. This adds to the enjoyment of the sport, particularly by members of field and game clubs, and pistol clubs, some of whom are avid ammunition makers in their own right. Problems could arise if provision were made to require a licence to be shown before ammunition could be purchased. Perhaps similar prov'ision could be made to apply to the purchase of the ingredients of a cartridge.

The Sporting Shooters Association of Australia and various organizations throughout the State whose members use firearms in their sport have supported this proposed legislation. In effect, the measure fulfils the recommendations contained in the 1964 report of the Statute Law Revision Committee. At the request of the Sporting Shooters Association, the committee recommended the introduction of a shooter's licence rather than the registration of firearms. It proposed that the shooter should be licensed for the use of various firearms and that there should be instituted a stamp system under which, by payment of an appropriate fee, he could shoot during a current season whatever game he ,might be


interested in taking. The Sporting Shooters Association prepared a particularly good submission. At long last the Government has introduced this measure. The Country Party trusts that it will consider the problems envisaged by ,my party, and that they will be overcome to the benefit of shooters and the firearms industry throughout the State.

It is hoped that adequate provision will be made to assist the police to cope with the rush of applicants for licences. To assist in this regard, shooters could be encouraged to take out a three-year licence at a reduced fee. At present the basic licence fee is proposed to be $2 for one year and $6 for three years. Tn reduce the work of members of the Police Force who will be administering the provisions of the Bill, provision could be made for a licence fee of $5 for the three-year period. Probably the majority of shooters would take, out this form of licence and this would reduce the work of the Police Force. The Minister should give consideration to such an incentive.

The Country Party supports the Bill, which may create certain problems, but they should not be insurmountable. It is hoped the provisions of the measure will have the desired effect of educating people in the better use of firearms, even though they may not prevent a number of firearms from falling into the hands of people who wish to use them to commit crimes.

Mr. MUTTON (Coburg).-The purpose of this Bill is to amend the Firearms Act 1958 with respect to the licensing of persons to use, carry, or possess firearms, to amend the Game Act 1'958, and for other purposes.

After perusing the Bill and, more particularly, the comments of the Chief Secretary in his explanatory speech, I am convinced that the Government has been prompted to introduce this ,measure as a result of a submission made to it by the Sporting Shooters Association of Australia

in 1968. When one reads the secondreading speech notes of the Chief Secretary--

The SPEAKER (Sir Vernon Christie).-Order! The honorable member should refer to Hansard, and not notes.

Mr. MUTTON.-The notes would have been incorporated in Hansard, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. WILKES (Northcote).-On a point of order, IMr. Speaker, I seek your guidance. There are times in this Parliament when, by courtesy of the Country Party and the Opposition, Bills are proceeded with before Hansard is printed. In such cases, what is the position with respect to the reading from the Minister's second-reading notes?

The SPEAKER.----!It is slightly hypothetical, but it has happened. It 'is obvious that the only record of any consequence and of any standing in this place is the record of Hansard; otherwise there would be interminable argument as to what the IMinister actually said. On the point brought up by the honorable member for Northcote, it has been the practice to use the s'econd-reading notes if the House wishes to go ahead before Hansard is printed. That has been the, usage.

Mr. ,MUTTON (Coburg).- The Chief Secretary took the opportunity of thanking certain people who offered their services in the preparation of this Bill and, in doing so, followed line for line the front page of the submission made by the Sporting Shooters Association of Australia. Is the House therefore to consider 'the 'raising of revenue for the purposes of game reserves and the sporting public, or is it to consider the more humane approach of protecting the citiz'ens of the State?

Until twelve months ago I was a member of the Field and Game Association of Victoria. 'I am a keen shooter and own two shot-guns and two rifles. I never miss the opening


of a duck-shooting season. I support any measure which will help the sporting public, but I do not concede that the Chief Secretary has introduced this measure for the benefit of all sections of the community. It will be beneficial only to sporting people in the State. I am concerned about the distribution of the revenue to be received as a result of the passing of this Bill, which will probably amount to $1 million. No mention has been made of how this revenue is to be allocated. 1t has not been stated whether it will be applied :to exclusive clubs with restricted membership, thus giving them an exclusive benefit, or all the revenue will be utilized by the Fisheries and Wildlife Branch for the benefit of all the citizens of the State who are interested in shooting or other forms of sport.

I have mentioned my interest in the humane aspect of the preservation of life, but I consider that the only way in which all members of the community could benefit would be by the introduction of a proper form of registration of all firearms, instead of licensing of shooters.

Mr. Ross-EDwARDs.-Is the honorable member intending to vote against the Bill?

Mr. IMUTTON.-I cannot vote against it; it is only a half-way step, but it is better than nothing. This is an amending Bill, and doubtless in a couple of years the Government will introduce a further amending Bill. The licensing of the shooter will achieve nothing except an increase in revenue for the Government. Motor cars and fi'rearms are somewhat parallel instruments, in that both are lethal weapons. If it is good enough for a motor vehicle to be registered to provide immediate identification, it should be good enough for firearms :to be registered. This is done successfully in other parts of the world. In some countries a photogr-aph of the licensee is included with the licence.

The Government should be serious in its attempts to introduce legislation designed for the bene'fit of all citizens. Two persons whom I know have conducted a great deal of research into this matter to ascertain the law in other countries. Both of these people were parents of daughters who were deliberately shot whilst on holiday-one at Lake Hume and the other at Lake Eildon. One of the persons charged with the shooting gave evidence that he thought he was shooting at a stump! I endorse the information tha t these people have placed in my possession. If the Government were sincere in its efforts to control the use of firearms it would heed the suggestions put forward by these people, which I now outline-

License the shooter. The photograph of the person included on

the licence. The serial numbers of the firearms he

owns printed on his licence.

That would assist in providing immediate identification-

If at any time a firearm is !sold the transfer should be recorded on the licence.

If the Government were sincere in its efforts to preserve the life IQf the people as well as to develop game reserves, that is the type of measure that it would have introduced; not this half-way amending legislation. How in the name of Heaven can the police trace the owner of a gun that has been discarded after a holdup? The gun may have a serial number and the shooter may have a licence, but the serial number of the gun is not recorded on the licence. If a weapon's serial number were recorded on the licence, it would be known im,mediately, for example, that Jack Smith owned a rifle whose serial number was 53432.

The endorsement on a licence of the serial number of a weapon would create no hardship, and it would provide protection for the community. It should be remembered that any type of gun, whether it be a smoothbore shot-gun, a pea rifle, a ·303 rifle or a revolver, is a lethal weapon


constructed to destroy either wildlife or human beings. It is surprising that the Government should introduce amending legislation of this nature on submissions that emanated from a sporting body.

In 1965, the Para Park Cooperative Association purchased Sunday Island for $40,000. It proposed to set up a game reserve to hunt deer. It was not content to develop the island as a game reserve, so it applied to the Shire of Yarram to establish a building society for the purpose of constructing hunting lodges. This cost a considerable sum of money. Membership ,of the association was limited to 200. If the Government proposes to embark IOn a programme 'Of giving gifts of large sums of money to sporting bodies, it should ensure that public moneys are not provided for exclusive shooting clubs. Money so provided should be distributed through the Fisheries and Wildlife Branch in a way that will enable all members of the community to derive some benefit.

This Bill will be of no great importance to many sections of the public. I am concerned with the protection of the average citizen, which could be achieved by providing a quick identification of weapons used in holdups. My argument against this amending legislation is based on the fact that it deals IQnly with the setting up of game reserves and the provision of facilities for sporting bodies. Can the Chief Secretary inforom ,me why he stated that the recording of a- serial number of a firearm on a licence would encumber the police?

Mr. ·HAMER.-I did not say that.

Mr. MUTTON.-The police are now faced with the ridiculous situation of making a sweeping survey of all licensed gun dealers in an endeavour to identify the owner 'Of a gun used in an armed holdup. The recording of the serial number of the gun on the back of a shooter's licence

would go a long way towards satisfying members of the community. I reiterate that this Bill is only halfway legislation. If the Government does not consider my proposals now only a few years will elapse before further amendments to the Firearms Act will be placed before the House.

It is still the intention of the Government to ensure that a person who is granted the right to 'Own a revolver for the protection of his property should register that revolver. Consequently, the revolver will be controlled by the police. However, honorable members are aware that, within the space of three to five minutes, a pea rifle or a shot-gun can be ,cut down to eight inches in length and can be used as ,a concealed weapon; it ,can be brought into the sa·me category as 'a revolver. In those circumstances, I cannot understand why the Government does not consider my proposals.

I recall that, during the second world war, the Defence Act provided that all citizens who owned shot-guns or pea rifles had to supply to their nearest police station their name and address and the serial number of the weapon. If that was considered necessary under emergency legislation, why should it not be done now? I supported the previous amending Bill, even though I argued in the way that I am arguing tonight. The measure was considerably better than nothing. Consequently, I support this Bill but I hope that, in the near future, the Government will consider my proposals and ensure that the serial numbers of the weapons are recorded on the back of the certificate or licence issued to persons fDr the use of firearms. This procedure would be similar to the registration papers of a motor vehicle.

The Leader of the Country Party interjected and asked whether I would support the Bill. I refer him to a headline in bold type which appeared in the Herald of 22nd July,


1970, "Country Party said that firearms should be registered". Members of the Country Party in this Chamber should follow the advice of their executive. If they believe firearms should be registered, they should support me. I emphasize again that this is only half-way legislation and that if the Government were sincere it would adopt my proposals.


Mr. McCABE (Lowan).-I support the principle of the Bill, although I welcome the Chief Secretary's statement that he will consider suggestions designed to improve the measure. I propose to offer some suggestions which I hope will improve the Bill. At the same time, I shall pose several questions to which I have no answers, in the hope that before the Bill is passed the honorable gentleman will provide some clarification.

I wonder how many people who receive a licence to shoot believe that this authorizes them to shoot anywhere, everywhere and anything. Some of the problems which this Bill is designed to overcome could perhaps have been covered more effectively by increasing the penalties or tightening the trespass to farms provisions of the legislation. Apparently the main reason for licensing shooters is to prevent damage to property, particularly farmers' property, vandalism, and the like.

The Chief Secretary stated the objectives of the Bill. I have some doubt concerning the second objective, namely, to give better protection to farmers and public authorities against vandalism and the irresponsible use of firearms. I suggest that to achieve this objective the Chief Secretary should investigate the possibility of tightening the trespass to farms provisions.

The third objective of the Bill is to provide a fund devoted to wild life management and conservation. This is a good idea, but I should like

to know how the amount of $1·5 million will be used. I reject the suggestion of the Deputy Leader of the Opposition that it is simply designed to collect additional revenue for the Government. Certainly, the legislation will be a source of revenue, but it is for a designated purpose, namely, to provide a fund devoted to wildlife management and conservation. Some shooters are interested in conservation. Of the amount of $1·5 million that will be collected, it is proposed to use 15 per cent for administration and the remaining $1·25 million for conservation purposes. How much of this money will be utilized for conservation, which will be of no benefit to shooters because they are not allowed to shoot in most conservation areas?

I should like to draw various other matters in the Bill to the attention of the Chief Secretary. Which authority will decide what is a valid reason why a person cannot obtain a licence to use a pea rifle or a shotgun?

Mr. WHITING.-The Magistrates Court.

Mr. McCABE.-That is not correct. In the ultimate, the matter may be decided by the court, but generally speaking the decision will be made by the police. If a policeman does not like the length of the applicant's hair, he may decide that he cannot use a gun and that he should not obtain a licence.

Representations have been made to me concerning persons who apply for an antique gun collector's licence. This is relevant to the Bill. In one area, it may take six months for a person who applies for an antique gun collector's licence to convince a magistrate or superintendent of police that he is a fit and proper person to hold a licence and that he has the requisite facilities. If he lives in a flat, the superintendent may say that the facilities are inadequate


from the aspect 'Of security. However, if an applicant lives in another area where the police superintendent is not so' particular about these matters, he will probably ·obtain a licence within a fortnight and, if he wishes, he can hang guns on the wall of his house where there is no security. For the information of the Chief Secretary, I can cite cases in which this has occurred. I am worried about the same type of situation arising when people apply for shooters' licences. Who will decide what is a valid reason for a person to possess a shot-gun or rifle? This information has not been supplied. In his second-reading speech, the Chief Secretary stated-

The applicant will be required to complete the prescribed form verified by statutory declaration that-

(a) he is not under the age of eighteen years;

(b) he is of good character and has not been convicted of an indictable offence or ·any offence punishable on summary conviction by imprisonment for not less than three months;

(c) he has good reason to possess the Ishot-gun or pea rifle;

This leaves the matter wide open to be decided perhaps on personalities rather than on valid reasons. I believe what would be considered a valid reason should be ·stated.

Mr. WILKES.-How would a policeman tell? He would be the last one to tell.

Mr. McCABE.-The Deputy Leader of the Opposition may be right in relation to sO'me districts, but in the country, where the local policeman is the friend and confidant of the majority of residents, he would know who was a fit and proper person to hold a licence or whether the applicant had a good reason to possess a gun. This does not apply to all areas.

A person who has a conviction recorded against him will not be eligible to hold a licence. I should like the Chief Secretary to clarify the position of a person who perhaps

shoots a duck that is protected on opening day of the duck-shooting season. I defy any person who shoots a duck on opening day to know whether it is a protected bird until he picks it up. If an officer of the Fisheries and Wildlife Branch is on the spot when a protected bird is shot, the shooter will be convicted and lose his gun. Would this prohibit him from obtaining a licence to shoot quail? Certainly, it should prohibit him from shooting duck because he has broken the law. If the shooter has eight or ten guns in his possession, which is possible, and one gun is confiscated under the Game Act, what happens to his other eight weapons, which could be rifles, pea rifles, or other firearms? How much time does the person have in which to sell the guns, because under the Act he is not allowed to retain even guns which have been taken to pieces; they are still guns under the Firearms Act. I believe this matter should be examined carefully before the Bill is passed.

I believe an annual licence fee of $2 is exorbitant and unnecessary. With previous speakers, I believe somewhere in the vicinity of $1· 5 million will be collected from gun licences under this legislation. Just as certain problems have been encountered with another Act, it appears that problems could arise in using the money to the best advantage.

Mr. WILKES.-It is at the discretion of the Minister.

Mr. McCABE.-1t is unnecessary to charge a licence fee of $3 for a person to shoot ducks in addition to an ordinary shooter's licence fee of $2. Why should duck shooters be singled out in this way when, according to the figures given by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, only $100,000 will be collected from them? This is chicken feed compared with the amount of $1·5 million which will be collected under this legislation. In my opinion and


in the opinion of a large percentage of people in my electorate a licence fee of $2 to shoot quail is ridiculous.

Mr. WILKES.-The licence fee for quail is $4.

The SPEAKER (Sir Vernon Christie ).-Order! There are far too many interjections.

Mr. McCABE.-The licence fee to shoot deer will be $10. I have little knowledge of deer; there are none in my electorate. In the Grampians, where the deer may be found, one is not allowed to shoot them. In the vicinity of Clunes, and in the Mount Cole area and other areas where deer shooters and poachers who use sp'Ot~ights operate, I should think the existing legislation would be adequate for prosecutions to be launched.

A $10 fee to shoot deer suggests that people are entitled to shoot this game anywhere and at any time, but this is not correct. A facetious suggestion has been ·made to me that the amount of money proposed to be spent on research into quail and duck, or perhaps $500,000 of it, could be put to better use by purchasing wheat from the excess production and so enable wheat farmers to re~ain 0!1 their properties. The quail IS a mIgratory bird which breeds in wheat crops. The birds may be there when a farmer is harvesting and the next day they are gone. To my mind, spending $500,000 every year on research into quail and duck is ridiculous.

The provision made for the farm permit is quite reasonable but it will not assist many farmers except perhaps th.ose who keep a gun on their propertI~s for the purpose of shootIng rabbIts. Of course, if the district lands inspector is on the ball, the farmer will have no rabbits on his property. When a farmer wishes to shoot . qua~l in a neighbouring paddo~k, I't wIll cost him $4 each year if he IS honest and applies for a licence. I suggest that certain proviSions of . the measure will cause people to break the law because they will not ~o to 1!he trouble of applying for a 'lIcence.

Session' 1972.-161

Another matter for query is the definition of a primary producer. A primary producer has been defined in various ways. Surely a per.son who operates an orchard on half an acre of land, and has a rifle to keep the birds away, is just as entitled to have the rifle as a farmer who keeps a shotgun on the property to shoot a snake which perhaps he will see when he does not have the gun with him anyway. The definition of primary producer should be defined more clearly in the Bill.

I believe a letter which I have received from the Horsham Agricultural Society should be read to the House so that honorable members will understand the views of the members of this society, of whom 90 per cent are farmers. The letter, which is dated 16th March, 1972, reads-

The society wishes to lodge a very strong protest .against the provisions of the Bill to licence shooters. We ,accept the part that allows farmers to shoot vermin without a licence but we do take exception to the proposed fees to shoot quail and ducks.

The SPEAKER (Sir Vernon Christie).-I remind the honorable member for Lowan again of my suggestion to the House that honorable members should not debate by proxy. I -invite the honorable member not to continue quoting from outside sources because that is debating by proxy. I invite the honorable member to debate the subject himself.

Mr. McCABE.-Do I understand that I may not continue to read the letter?

The SPEAKER.-The honorable member may, but it is open to question.

Mr. McCABE . .......!fhe letter continues-

It has been pointed out that 15 per cent of fees will be taken for administration costs and that the residue will be used for development of better shooting by the encouragement of these game to increase greatly in numbers.

Our society does not agree with this latter suggestion as it would be virtually impossible to increase quail numbers by breeding pro-


grammes and in regard to ducks, breeding programmes would be of only marginal benefit.

As farmers we do ,approve of shooters being licensed but ,to collect fees on the pretext of improving shooting possibilities is of doubtful wisdom.

I completely concur in that contendon. Another matter which has been raised with me and which was reported upon in this morning's Age relates to rowing clubs. The Victoria Rowing Association has a panel of 100 members who conduct regattas throughout Victoria. To start a race and to finish it, an official fires a shotgun. In some places, 'a double-barrel shot-gun is an approved starting pistol whilst in other areas an ordinary shot-gun is used for t!his purpose. I ask the Chief Secre1tary whether the 100 members would need a licence to fire the shot-gun to start or finish a race. Generally, the officia'l fires the shot-gun into the air and I am wondering whether he will have to pay the $2 registration because perhaps once a year he may fire a shot at the beginning or the end of a race.

Another question I desire to raise is whether a person can purchase a gun and then apply for a licence, or whether he must first apply for a licence. I understand that on the application form, which will include a statutory declaration, the applicant must state the type of gun he will use. It has been suggested that the number of the gun ought to appear on the form. I am wondering what comes first, the gun or the licence.

I reiterate that a farmer who has a couple of sons may have a gun which anyone of the male members of the family could use for shooting rabbits, ducks or quaH. Under this legislation, it will cost the family $19 a year to own the gun. If a member of a famHy goes shooting and meets a policeman, an<;l he does not have a licence, the gun can be confiscated. I am sure that this is not the intention 'of the measure and I trust that something will be done to amend it.

Mr. McCabe.

Mr. AMOS (Morwell).-I support the remarks of the Deputy Leader of the Opposition. The Bill has received considerable publicity throughout Victoria and this has been demonstrated by the number of honorable members from all parties who, during the debate, have spoken on behalf of farming organizations, shooting organizations, and other groups in society which have made representations to them on the measure. To ascertain the enormous amount of pUblicity on the Bill, one has only to ask a member of the Parliamentary Library staff to look up the press statements that have emanated from the Chief Secretary. Approximately eleven of them have been attributed to the honorable gentleman concerning the Government's intention to introduce legislation to control firearms in order to prevent ctime. It is only necessary to refer honorable members to the Age of 18th August, where, on page 4, it is stated-

People with guns will have to get a li-cence from ,the police, whether the guns are used or not.

I~ Shot-guns and ·22 rifles are the most common firarms used in holdups~." Mr. Hamer said.

Mr. Hamer said it was hoped that licenSing all firearm owners would limit the use of weapons in crime 'and in "senseless vandalism, especially in the country". 1ihe crux of the matter is that the general public believes tha t this measure will reduce the number of armed holdups and the number 'Of occasions when firearms will be used.

Mr. Ross-EnwARDs.-lt will not. M'r. AMOS.-I agree with the

Leader of the Country Party. I object to the hypocritical approach by the Govern'ment during the past twelve months. The Chief Secretary has not denied press reports which have stated that this legislation will in no way reduce the number of armed holdUps. The honorable member for Lowan and the honorable member for Coburg have clearly stated that to make a shooter applying for a licence include the


make and type of the gun on the application form will not be a great encumbrance upon the police.

Whilst the honorable membeT for Coburg was speaking, the Chief Secretary interjected that he was being misquoted by the honorable member. I remind the Minister that at page 3963 of Hansard, during his explanatory speech, the honorable gentleman said-

The Government has rejected the alternative of attempting to register every firearm as cumbersome, costly and generally ineffective. That is the portion of the Minister's remarks which the honorable member for Coburg was quoting. If the Government were concerned about the use of firearms in armed holdups and other crimes, it would recognize the worth of the contribution which has been made by the honorable member f.or Lowan. I feel sure that the honorable member would have raised the matter in the party room. It -is necessary that a shooter's licence should bear his name and the brand of his firearm. That would not involve the adoption of a cumbersome pfiocedure.

Many reports have been published in the press in the past nine to twelve months concerning this proposed legislation. A passage in an article which appeared in the Herald of 17th August, 1971, referred to remarks by the Chief Secretary. It reads-

Shot-guns and ·22 rifles are the commonest firearms used in holdups ..

It has been said that rifles and shotguns are the weapons most commonly used in crimes because they are capable of being sawn off or cut down, but I contend that the Firearms Act already provides that it is an offence to possess a sawn-off rifle or shot-gun.

The real reason for the introduction 'Of this measure is the Government's desire to raise extra revenue. In his second-reading speech, the Chief Secretary said that this Bill had been introduced in the hope that the Government would receive in-

creased revenue of $600,000 from licences, although the honorable member for Lowan asserts that the increase will be as much as $1·5 million; in any event, it will be a considerable sum. It is apparent that fees in excess of either the sum of $600,000 or $1·5 moillion which will be received as a result of the passing of this measure will be paid into the Consolidated Fund, although the Chief Secretary says that that is not so. In view of the record of this incompetent Government, it is obvious that the Fisheries and Wildlife Branch will not receive additional finance to foster game to be shot by licensed shooters. Instead of being granted additional finance, the branch will probably receive the same amount as it has received in the past or a lesser sum.

As I have indicated earlier, a large number of honorable members have received representations concerning this Bill, and I believe many citizens have a false impression of the effect that the enactment of this legislation will have. The Chief Secretary should make it clear that the passage of this measure will have very little, if any, effect upon the incidence of offences committed by criminals armed with rifles or shot-guns.

I appreciate the difficulties with which the Government is faced, and I consider it fortunate that Victoria does not have the same constitutional requirements regarding firearms as those which exist in the United States of America. Under the American Constitution people are allowed to possess firearms, and there is no way in which the States of that country can exercise proper control.

A large number of ·firearms are in the possession of people in this State and, in considering control and licensing measures, the Government should not think solely of lfinancial considerations. What does finance mean to a father whose daughter is slain? What does it mean to a greengrocer's wife when her husband is shot dead during an armed holdup?


What does it mean to the widower of a woman who worked at a Totalizator Agency Board branch and who had been shot in an armed holdup? What does it matter if the elimination of these events will cost the Government another 1 per cent or 2 per cent of its Budget? In the protection of human life, finance should not be a factor. The Government is hypocritical when it talks of preventing slaughter on the roads.

The SPEAKER (Sir Vernon Christie).-The honorable member is getting on to ano1!her subject.

Mr. AMOS.-If the Government can introduce measures to stop the slaughter on our roads and the elimination of crimes which include widespread and unnecessary killings, why can it not introduce a measure to prevent people from being maimed as a result of the indiscriminate use of firearms? The time must surely come when it will be found to be absolutely necessary for a proper check to be made on, and a proper record to be kept of, rifles possessed by people in Victoria. In these days, with the use of computers, such a system should not be too difficult to implement.

I do not oppose the measure, but it is high time that press reports of the kind to which I have referred chould not be allowed to remain uncontradicted. The Government should not sit back and allow the public to think that this Bill, when enacted, will reduce the incidence of crimes involving the use of firearms. The Government should clearly state that its only reason for introducing the Bill is to secure additional .finance, and I hope that honorable members, particularly those on the Government side of the House, will press the Chief Secretary and other members of the Cabinet to introduce effective measures of control.

Mr. MITCHELL (Benambra).-The Country Party supports this Bill and the reasons for its doing so have been explained to the House very

ably by the Deputy Leader of the party. 'I do not intend to repeat his remarks.

One or two features of the measure worry me and other members of our party. For example, how will the legislation prevent .firearms from falling into the hands of evil people who intend to commit a crime? That is a problem which will be difficult to overcome. It was first attempted after the battle of Colloden in 1746 when the Disarming Act was passed to bring about the disarming of Scottish clans. The only result was that the good Scottish clans, such as the Mitchell clan, surrendered their weapons and the bad clans did not. That left the good clans at the mercy of the bad, and we do not want a repetition of that situation.

I also pose this question to the Chief Secretary: What will be the pOSition of Aboriginal citizens? At present they enjoy privileges, in that they can shoot and fish out of season and there are circumstances under which they can sell their artifacts. Will their position be altered with the passing of this Bill?

Farmers are well aware of trouble caused by vandals with firearms who fire at windmills, and so on, and it is obvious that there is a need for control in that area. The farmer, however, has a need for firearms to deal with pests in crops, animals in pain and snakes.

When I was absent at the war, women on farms appreciated having a firearm in their possession, particularly when Japanese prisoners of war escaped from Cowra. A similar situation existed after the civil war in the United States of America and in the last days of the South African war before the signing of the Treaty of Veringen in 1902. In addition, every Swiss man in the army is permitted to take his rifle home for use in the event of a national emergency arising.

Firearms [28 MARCH, 1972.] (Amendment). Bill ~54~

The honorable member for Coburg, with a good deal of vehemence, engendered by sincerity, contended that in addition to the shooter, each firearm should be licensed. As he has two shot-guns and two rifles, the honorable member would require to have four licences instead of the one which -is to be issued under the provisions of this measure. My party cannot see how the honorable members' suggestion can be put into effect without an incredible amount of administrative work.

In the history of the world, firearms have been the arbiters of destiny. The Spanish fell because of the arquebus being the arbiter of destiny, just as in Kentucky the long rifle was the arbiter of destiny. The blunderbus was the arbiter of destiny in North America, and the Colt revolver was the arbiter of destiny when the rangers met the Commanche and the Apache Indians at the battle of Pedernales on 8th June, 1846. How will this Bill, when enacted, affect the use of the firearm as an Australian arbiter of destiny in the case of a shot-gun wedding?

Mr. JONA (Hawthorn).-I support the Bill and I commend the Government for presenting it. As was indicated by the Chief Secretary, the Bill breaks new gI'lound in the field of firearms not only for Victoria but also for Australita. It probably will set the pattern for legislation in this field in this country. Victoria is so far ahead 'Of the other States that hon.orable ,members will have to wait some time lior the other States to bring their legislation up to date in a way which will lead to unif'Or,m legislation in this sphere.

I am surprised that honorable members who have taken part in the debate have not commended the many good aspects of the Bill, because I am sure that th.ose aspects are appreciated. Many provisions of the Bill are designed, in an expert way, ,to meet the objectives set out in the introductory paragraph of the Minister's second-reading speech.

Obviously, the honorable -member for Morwell did not read that paragraph or the rest of the speech. If he had done so, he would have found the answer to all the questions he raised.

The Deputy Leader IQf the Opposition spoke at length but, when what he said was boiled down, all it meant was that the Bill should be referred to the Statute 'Law Revision Committee. The honorable member let the cat .out 'Of the bag when he said, as I understood him, that he had hoped there w,ould be some tighter provisions within the measure 'So that it would have a greater impact on reducing cdme, and hinted at the registration of weapons themselves. The sincerity of the Deputy Leader of the Opposition should be examined. On the one hand, he wants the Bill referred to the Statute Law Revision Committee and, on the other hand, he hoped that that com·mittee would recommend registration of weapons.

Mr. WILKES.-I did not say that; do not misrepresent me.

Mr. JONA.-I do not wish to misrepresent the honorable member so I will put the matter another way. The Oeputy Leader 'of the Opposition first suggested that the Bill should be referred to the Statute Law Revision Committee and said that this House ought to adopt the recommendations of that committee. That is precisely what the Government has done in presenting this Bill. The report of the Statute Law Revision Committee upon proposed amendments to the Firearms Act 195'8, together with minutes of evidence, was IQrdered to be printed by this House on 27th April, 1966. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition was a member of the committee at that time and so were the present Minister of Water Supply and the present Deputy Leader of the Country Party. At page 4 of its report, the committee stated-

Although additional evidence has been tendered on the question of requiring shotguns and pea rifles to be re2istered the


committee is thoroughly satisfied that little, if any useful purpose,. would be serve~ by requiring firearms certIficates to !>e obtamed for either of ,these weapons. It IS therefore recommended that no action be taken to introduce the registration of shot-guns or pea rifles.

I emphasize that that is a recommendation made by an expert allpartycom,mittee of this Parliament, and it could well be repeated if this Bill were referred to the oommittee. The Deputy ,Leader of the Opposition quite clearly, is not prepared to a'ccept the recommendation of the committee of which he was a member, yet the report indicated. no division in the committee's findmgs. Therefore, I assume that the lDeputy Leader of the Opposition supports the principles of the Bill but will not commend the Chief Secretary and the Government for presenting it because he does not have thecourage of his convictions.

'The honorable member for Coburg suggested some form ·of registrat~on of guns, similar to the registratIon of motor cars. This point was adequately ·covered by the honorable member for Benambra, but I point out that there is no ·analogy between the registration of motor cars and the registration of guns. There is not, and there cannot be, any owner onus in respect to a weapon: Perhaps .1 CQuld put it that there IS no POSSIbility of a rifle being convicted of a parking offence! A tremendous organization with large headquarters and a vast number of staff would be required to supervise .the registration of all weapons. Aga!nst this one would have to consIder the 'benefits to be obtained from the type of legislation suggested by the honorable member for Coburg.

There ·may be 200,000 or 300,000 shooters in Victoria but, apart ffoom those already involved in crime, the number who have any intention of being involved in crime in the future would be small. It has been suggested that fewer than one-half of 1 per cent of the shooteTs would be concerned. Should a huge ?rganization amounting to. an empIre

Mr. Jona.

be set up to register the weapons belonging to possibly 300,OO~ people to provide a safeguard agamst the actions of a few hundred people? It should be borne in mind that anyone who wants a weapon to use in committing a crime would not choose one registered in his. name. H~ would obtain 'a weapon Illegally; It would probably be stolen for the purpose. In that case, registration would have no useful effect.

The honorable member for Morwell, like several other honorable members, is concerned that a substantial sum of money will be raised and spent to establish the Wildlife Managemen t Fund. I would expect all honorable ·members to be pleased that this money will be made available for the purposes clearly set out in the Bill but expounded in more detail in the Minister'S second .. reading speech.

The objection of the honorable member for Morwell to the Bill see,ms to be that the Government will reduce the amount it would normally make available for these purposes by the 'amount derived as a result· IQf the passage ·of this measure. The same argument could be applied to practically every fund set up by the Government. I do not recall that, when Parliament passed legislation providing that money be provided for the Hospitals and Charities Commission from Tattersall's and the Totalizator Agency Board, colleagues of the honorable member opposed those measures on the ground that money should not be provided in that way because the Government would reduce the amount it normally made available to the commission from other sources.

Honorable members must realize that the overwhelming majority of shooters in the State 'are involved in shooting as a sport. These people have a vested interest in the matters which will be the subject of further research, study and investigation by the Fisheries and Wildlife Branch.


The honorable member for Lowan raised some important points which will probably be explained by .the Chief Secretary. They were mamly matters of administration. The honorable member expressed some concern-and apparently it is a 'matter of concern to the Country Partyabout what is ,meant by the expression "primary producer". The Bill makes that quite clear. .proposed section 22AB, to be inserted in the principal Act by clause 5, provides that the Chief Commissioner of Police will have power to issue a farm permit to a person ~ho is. e~gaged in primary productI.Qn withm the meaning of Part IlIA. of t!'te principal Act. !hat ~art of .the prmcipal Act prOVIdes, mter alla.-

"Primary production" means .farming agricultural horticultural. viticultural. pastoral or grazing operations and WIthout affecting .the generality of ,the fore~ing includes dairy farming poultry farmmg and bee farming operations.

If any criticism is possible, it is that the term "primary producer" is too wide. If it is, as the Deputy Leader of the Opposition suggests, ~h~re ·may be a case for a ,moOre restrIctIve definiti.Qn. However, .I point out that the Chief Com.missioner 'Of Police is not obliged to issue a farm permit .to every primary producer w~o 'applIes for one. He must be satIsfied that the primary producer has good reason to have a permit and that he fulfils other ·condiHons. In the case .of the issue or the refusal to issue a farm permit-as with a junior permit and the ordinary shooter's licence-all decisions of the Chief Commissioner of Police are subject to an 'appeal to a magistrate.

T.he honorable 'member foOT Lowan also asked what happens to any number of guns which may be owned by a shooter whose licence is cancelled. This 'is quite clearly set out in clause 6 of the Bill where provision is made for a person to dispose of his weapons when his licence is cancelled. There is also provision for time .for the disposal of weapons in other ci~cu.mstances

such as when a shooter who holds a licence dies. This measure is progressive and will result in good legislation. It will go a long way towards meeting the IQbjectives set lOut by the Chief Secretary.

Mr. LOVEGROVE (Sunshine).-I support the general principle ~f the Bill, 'which is one of ·a serIes of attempts by the Government to control firearms. I think the previous measure was supported by the Opposition with ·certain reservations. The Opposition realizes the importance of controlling firearms, not merely for the reasons set out in the Minister's explanatory secondreading speech, which contains ,a 10't of talk about wildlife conservation and other matters. I assume that they 'are the padding put into the speech to justify imposing a licence .fee.

The fundamental point about the Bill is that, for the first time, it purports to control the sale and purchase of firearms. If one cont~o'ls the purchase of something, one 'automatically c.ontrols its sale. I speak subject to correctio~ w~en I say t~at the object of the BIll IS to :exerClse control over the purchase of firearms. .J am not referring to pistols. The Bill vests authority in the police who are charged with the administration of the legislation and are given, in the Bill but so far as I can ascertain from the Chief Secretary's second-reading speech not elsewhere by the Government, the guidelines which they are to follow and which presumably the Magistrates Court, in the case of an appeal, is to use in deciding whether or not the police will allow the purchase of any of the firearms named in the Bill.

Perhaps this isa prem·ature reference, but all the firearms dealt with in the Bill use ammunition based on chemical propulsion. In other coUntries today, including the United States of America, defence research is centred on the manufacture and use of firearms which do


without ·chemical propulsion. I have no doubt that whoever is responsible foOl" the drafting of the Bill and its overseeing-I assume it is the committee to which the Deputy Leader of the Opposition referredwill have taken some notice of the new trends in firearms. abroad.

I raise a matter of which I have had some personal experience ,~d about which I want to ask the ChIef Secretary a question. I notice t~at in sub-section (4) of proposed sectIOn 22AA, three categ.ories .of firearms are mentioned, namely: - A-shot-gun; B-pea rifle; C-any rifle other than a pea rifle. Apparently category C, relating to any rifle 'Other than a pea rifle, will be subject to the same require'ments as the oth~r two categories. I 'refer not to a hIgh-powered centre-fire rifle which can kill with reasonable accuracy at a distance of 200 or 300 yards if ·the ~ser is good enough, burt to any other kind of rifle. I refer to the small bore, the rim-fire, the general run of small rifles purchased by a number of people over the years, perhaps for rabbiting, for having in the ho,!se, or for different kinds of shootIng. Under clause 5 of the Bill a person who wishes to purchase a small rifle not being a pistol has to satisfy the police that he has good reason to possess a firearm.

The police have adopted a justifiably prudent ,and cautious policy in regard to the issue of pistol licences and their 'administration of this policy has been good. They. take the view that unless an attempt is made on a pers'on's life, 'although he 'may be threatened, nothing can be done to protect him. During the life of thi~ Government, members of Parliament have experienced several instances of this kind. About a year before I became a member, I had an experience similar to that of other ,members. Threats are ,made against one's life either by telephone or by letter. If one seeks a licence for a pistol, the police, with admirable caution, iSSue ,a licence provided that the pistol is not taken ,outside the house.

Mr. Lovegrove.

One is supposed to inform everybody that one has a pistol so that they will stay away. This sometimes is effective, but on other occasions it -is not. However, that is the law, and I am not objecting to it.

Some years ,ago, because of the inflammatory conduct of some people in 'Preston--"inflammatory conduct which is paralleled in Carlton today against the Housing Gommissionthe then Chairman of the Housing Commission, Mr. Bradley, was almOost killed by a mentally deranged youth. His ,mind was inflamed by one .of his parents and ·a number of other people in the community who should have known better. He got -into a position outside Mr. Bradley's house in 'a north-eastern suburb and tried unsuccessfully to kill him with a high-powered rifle through ,a window. Eventually, he was apprehended.

Mr. Bradley 'and the Government were generous ahoutit because of the circumstances. The story was that his m.other's land was being taken by the Housing Commission. Eventually, the youth more or less got off with a warning or something of that description. Much the same kind of .organized inflammatory propaganda is being conducted today against members of the Housing Commission. I mention that in passing because it is serious to inflame the ·minds of people to the extent that a deranged person takes it literally, gets a rifle and kills someone. However, the law says that a person cannot defend himself.

Eventually, a member of Parliament was threatened by the same youth who attempted to kill Mr. Bradley. The sergeant of. ,police was asked what c.ould be done, and he replied that nO' action could be taken unless an attempt was made to kill somebody. This is a true story. You will recall the incident, Mr. Deputy Speaker. 'fo protect the ,member who had been threatened the Government was persuaded to debar the young gentleman concerned from the gallery of this Chamber. However, he


went over to the Legislative Council and entered in that way. Honorable members took a good look at him. Although the law is administered in such an admirable, c·autious and prudent manner it is a poor consolation for the shopkeeper, the .ordinary tenant or owner of a dwelling, the person who has a small business, or the person who is unfortunate enough to be working in a bank or a shop where there are valuables which attract the attention of criminals. If this person wants to obtain a rifle to protect himself ·and to put in his shop or home, what will the police regard as a reasonable case for him to get it? What reasons must he give for wanting a rifle? Will he have to say that he wants the rifle to protect himself and his wife?

It is not necessarily an adequate protection to have a rifle. In the Northcote electorate an unfortunate person in a gun shop and his wife, who is still in a critical condition, were assaulted by criminal elements who attempted to get what they wanted from the shop without regard for the owner's life or that of his wife. I am not referring to a high-powered centre-fire rifle but to a small rifle 'Of the rim-fire type. If ·a person wants to get a small rifle, will he have to tell the police that he wants to j'oin a smlaU-bore club? If he wants to obtain a shotgun, will he have to tell the police that he wants to shoot, trap or skeet.

A person may want to get some security in view of the present incidence of crime in Melbourne and he may want a weapon in his house to reassure his wife -and family .or to put in his car when he is travelling interstate. A person certainly needs' some protection 'On some interstate roads. Plenty of persons attempt to harass travellers. I should like to be informed what the police will regard as a good reason for a person to possess a firearm. I have a small rifle at hDme and I do nDt want a reason tD possess it. I have it there to protect myself. When I

was travelling interstate without a weapDn in the car I had the unfortunate experience of being chased for miles.

Mr. WILKES.-The Chief Commissioner will decide whether or not the honorable member can keep the rifle.

,Mr. LOVEGROVE.-I do not want that to' be decided. I want to know in advance, if the police are going to determine whether a person ,may purchase a sm-all rifle, what reasons will be -acceptable.

'Mr. WILKES.-The Chief Secretary should inform honorable members on that point.

Mr. LOVEGROVE.-I believe so, too. Probably hundreds of people in Victoria have bought guns and rifles with which to protect themselves. A huge private army is engaged to protect private enterprise; various security organizations -are engaged to protect factories, shops, and so on. If the many people in the community who in the past few years have bought firearms to protect themselves give that as their only reason for possessing firearms, I hope that will be acceptable to the police because that is the only protection the people have in society as it exists today in Australia.

Mr. A. T. EVANS (Balla·arat North).-Firstly, I commend the House for the standard of this debate. Members of both sides have brought forward some important points which I am sure the Chief Secretary and the Government fully appreciate. I strongly support the Bill. My primary purpose in speaking at this late stage is that, since the Minister's second-reading speech was delivered, my attention has been drawn by a number of primary producers 1''0 the fact that mDst of the game sought by shooters will be on private property. As has been already pointed out, most deer will be found in sanctuary reserves Dr in adjDining private prDperty. A sDmewhat similar situation applies to quail.

4550 Firearms ., :' [ASSEMBLY.] (Amendment) Bill.

A number of landowners fear that once a shooter obtains a licence he will expect as of right to trespass on private property. I have discussed the situation with departmental officers, and they assert that section 28B of the Firearms Act. relating to trespass to farms, is sufficient protection for the landowner, but things appear different when the legislation is being interpreted across a desk and when it is being interpreted by a farmer who is in his back paddock and 3 miles from his homestead. He sees some shooters walking through his lambing ewes, asks them to leave his property and they laugh at him. He is fearful tha t the next time his wife sees him he may be tucked under 'a bush.

I have been informed by local police officers that they do not apprehend many offenders under this provision. Some police officers told me that they would not have twelve reported offences a year and of this number in only about six cases is someone apprehended. 'Most landowners are frightened to complain because of the difficulty of interpreting the Act. For this reason I stress upon the Chief Secretary the need, when the licences are printed, to include warnings on the front and back of the licences to the effect that the issue of a licence does not give the licensee the right to enter upon private property without the permission of the landowner. Section 28B of the Firearms Act provides, inter alia-

(1) Any person who without the consent, express or implied, of the occupier of the land concerned or of some person apparently authorized to act on behalf of such occupier-

(a) uses or discharges ,a firearm in such a manner that any shot bullet or missile is discharged therefrom on to or ·across land which is used in connexion with primary production; or

(b) carries or has in his possession a firearm while he is on ,any such land-

shall be guilty of ;an offence and liable for a first offence to a F>enalty of not more than $50 or ,to imprisonment for a term of not more ,than one month and for a second or

Mr. A. T. Evans.

subsequent offence toa penalty of not more than $500 or imprisonment for a term of not more than six months.

The penalty for a first offence is grossly inadequate and in my opinion it should be the loss of the licence and a fine of at least $100.

Reference has been made to the amount of revenue that will be raised following the passage of this Bill. The estimates made have been based on supposition. I understand that the surplus Tevenue fro·m motor boat licence fees is $1 . 5 million and much of this money will never be used for the purpose for which it was collected. I do not know how much money will be derived from the collection of licence fees for firearms and whether the proceeds will be allocated for the purposes expressed in the Bill. If there is a surplus in the fund it should be allocated to the Fisheries and Wildlife Branch to permit research into the breeding and preservation of Australian fauna.

The honorable member for Morwell said that the American Constitution gave Americans. a right to use and possess weapons. Even though that right may be in the American Constitution it appears that State Governments in that country have rigid controls over the use of firearms. Despite this, several attempts have been made by the States, because of the decline of the sodal structure in that country, to regulate the use of firearms.

The move by the Victorian Government to attempt to regulate and control the use of firearms in Victoria is commendable. I commend the Government for introducing the measure and I gather from the remarks made during the debate that it will be a major step forward in this field.

Mr. TREWIN {Benalla).-This debate has gone off with a bang and the Bill has been shot to ribbons. Comments made by honorable members have been extremely enlightening. Points of view have been put by members representing country and city electorates. The Bill has been presented by the Chief Secretary in


good faith but public opinion has more or less forced the Government into taking action. I can appreciate the desire of the Chief Secretary to introduce the Bill. Because of the large number of holdups that have occurred in Melbourne and even in country areas, there is a need to control the ownership of firearms. For that reason the Bill has been introduced and it contains provisions for the issue of four categories of licences for pistols and other firearms.

The two types of licences in which I am particularly interested are the permits for farmers and for juniors. A pistol can be readily concealed on the body and the Bill makes provis'ions relating to the issue of licences for shot-guns and pea rifles which are the weapons most commonly used by the man in the street. These weapons can be cut down in a few minutes so that they are easily concealable. Therefore, it is necessary to impose restrictions on their use.

I distributed copies of the Bill throughout the countryside and the most important reaction I received to it was from a policeman who is stationed in an area whe're a good deal of illegal spotlight shooting is carried on. His reaction was that it was high time there was control over the purchase of firearms.

Restrictions will be placed on the purchase of weapons. At present it is easy for a man to travel 100 miles in a motor car to go spotlight shooting in the country. Many property owners have been driven to despair by the activities of these people. They play havoc amongst stock and damage farm buildings. It is time restrictions were placed on the purchase or possession of firearms and it is for this reason that I support the Bill.

I am not as enamoured as are some people with the provisions relating to the farm permit because' I believe the activities of the farmer in the use of his firearm will be restricted: I have two sons on my property and it ,will be necessary for each, of them

and for me to obtain separate licences and to have them endorsed for duck shooting. The Graziers Association has supported the provision of the Bill relating Ito the issuing of farm permits and the president of the association commended the Government for introducing the measure. However, when he examines the restrictions that .will be placed on the person who. obtaIns a farm permit he will realIze that the permit will be of benefit ?nly to those people wi th large propertIes. I am perturbed about ~hese provisions because most farmers In the Benalla area are interested in ~hooting and there are several lakes In the dist~ict on which they can go ~uck shootmg. The shooting of quail IS also popular in the area. The f~rmers will have to obta'in a shooter's lIcence to indulge in these sports.

Reference has been made to the ~hooting of deer in closed areas and In reserves, but I am more concerned about what happens in the mountaino~s . a.reas to the north of the Great DIVIdIng Range. Havoc is caused among deer in the upper reaches of the Delatite River not by shooters but by dogs which are taken into the are.a. Some time in the future the ~hIef Se~re~ary might consider placIng r~strtctIons up?n the taking of dogs mto an area In which deer are found.. Before a dog is taken amongst deer It should be sufficiently well '~rained that it will always be close to ItS owner's heels.

It is always difficult to trace a lost or stolen weapon .. For example, it w?uld be almost Impossible to retrIeve a gun that was stolen in the country and brought to Melbourne. A gun can easily be taken to pieces and the number on it altered by the amateur gunsmith who has a few punches with numbers on them.

Although I realize that the Bill has b~en introduced in good faith, I am inclIned to support the views expressed by the Depyty Leader of the Oppos'itIOn that It should be re-examined before it becomes law. Because of the 'criticism of. the measure that has emanated from Government supporters I am 'quite sure that if it be-

4552 'Firearms' [ASSEMBLY. ] (Amendment) Bill.

comes law an amending measure will be introduced at an early date.

Mr. BURGIN (Polwarth).-I support the Bill, even though it is a departure from previous legislation on firearms. The way in which it is drafted will be of benefit to the community generally and to shooters in particular. Opposition to the measure has been based on .one small point. I have heard no criticism of the restrictions that are to be placed on the sale of solid slug ammunition and rocket cartridges. These restrictions are an important part of the Bill. As there has been no criticism of these provisions, I assume that honorable members generally agree with them.

In the past a tremendous amount of damage ha.s been done in country areas with this type of ammunition. A:. solid slug of metal can travel through a thick material even when fired from some distance away. This type of ammunition is not necessary for general use in Victoria and I agree with the proposal to restrict its use.

The second point I wish to mention is the provision of a junior shooter's licence. The money from these licences is to be devoted to the train'lng of junior shooters in the safe use of firearms. This will do a tremendous amount of good in the future as our young people will be taught the correct and safe use and handling of firearms. Shooting is a sport which should not be outlawed in this State. n is a sport which people 'can ,enjoy and which can be conducted together with the idea'ls of 'conservation. The sport provides many people with 'a tremendous anwunt of enjoyment in that they can get out into the clean fresh country air and enjoy themselves.

I have not heard opposition on the actual framing of the shooter's licence. It makes sense to have all the various categories on the one licence form, just as it makes sense to have the game stamps also on the one form. As a fisherman as well as a shooter, I find that .I must carry perhaps half a dozen licences to do my fishing. They include an inland fishing licence,

licences to cover a boat, a boat trailer, netting of bait, netting of 'crayfish, and, if I fish in the River Murray, a New South Wales fishing licence. This is a ridiculous situation. At least in the case of firearms, 'Only one sheet of paper will have to be carried.

It seems that the Opposition's case against the Bill boils down to the fact that the gun itself is not being registered. I can understand this objection because in the ultimate this would be the only way to tackle this problem, but looking at it from another point of view, can the Government enforce on 95 per cent or 98 per cent of the people who use firearms ,these added restrictions just because 1 or 2 per cent are doing damage wi th firearms? I do not believe the Government could do that. The Opposition has raised a similar principle in relation to other Bills that have been presented in this House. Members of the Opposition have linked together firearms and cars. It has been said by the Opposition that they are both killers and that is why the numbers of the firearms should be registered. I invite honorable members to consider the position obtaining with cars. Thousands of cars are used illegaUy every year. Does the Opposition contend that the registering of these firearms individually will prevent criminals from getting hold of them? I do not believe it will as that type of person will procure a firearm no matter what the Government does to stop him. For those reasons, I cannot go along with the views of the Opposition that Parliament should go all the way and require firearms to be individually registered. What the Government proposes will go a certain way along the road.

The Bill provides three categories for the shooter's licence, na'mely, a shot-gun, a pea rifle and a centrefire rifle. The shot-gun and the pea rifle licences can be issued without a great deal of restriction, with the exception that the person who has been convicted ,of certain offences


cannot be registered as a shooter. Certain other restrictions are laid down in the Bill. This will prevent some of the undesirable people from obtaining a shooter's licence.

Honorable members should examine the present legislation on the centre-fire rifle. I do not know whether the Statute Law Revision Committee submitted a recommendation when that legislation was enacted. I mention this aspect because the Deputy Leader of the Opposition stated that the House should have referred this Bill to the Statute Law Revision Committee. The present legislation dealing with centre-fire rifles has been completely useless. I have a centre-fire rifle, but I do not think I have seen it for five years. I believe the registration form is tucked away in the butt of the rifle. I am sure this is the case with many people who have centre-fire rifles and do not use them. I do not believe the legislation has done anything to help the firearm problem in Victoria.

Mr. WILKES.-The police disagree with that opinion.

'Mr. BURGIN.-I do'not believe the police disagree. I have checked with many policemen. If the honorable member looks at the records, he will find that it is seldom that a centre-fire rifle has been used in a holdup; it is always a shot-gun or pea rifle. However, the legislation did some good for the farming communities because it stopped a lot of people indiscriminately using that type of rifle with a long range. However, when they are using an explosive cartridge, the rifle does not have the same long 'range. Consequently, the legislation wa's quite useless and I am in favour of it being repealed and replaced by the provisions in this Bill.

Turning to the proposed farmer's permit, I point out that many years ago farmers did most of the spoflting shooting around the State. Of course, the farmers invited their city .friends

'to visit the country and enjoy the SpOflt. Today, because of 'cars and good roads, many people are able to travel long distances and enter into the sport of shooting. It would appear that the farmer, generally, misses out all the time because, under this legislation, he can have a gun to shoot any vermin on his property, but it is against the law for him to have vermin on his land. If he encourages quail or duck onto his property and wishes to shoot them, he must pay a licence fee to shoot this game. The legislation is a little one-sided but on the credit side under this Bill the far'mer can gain a tremendous amount.

One of the greatest problems in the country areas today is the indiscriminate shooting that ,occurs. Residents in the city do not realize what a proble,m this is. It is bad over holiday periods and I find that on my property, just before the Christmas period, it pays me to poison the rabbits and put notices around the boundary fences. By do'ing this at Christmas time I have had no trouble with shooters for four years, but at other times of the year I have found dead stock shot with rifles. Many of my neighbours have had the same experience and it is a continuing practice. Many people go into a property spotlighting. They shoot a sheep or lamb as they enter the property and as they come 'Out they pick up the carcass. This is prevalent in country areas, so that anything that can be done to impose a restriction on those people should be encouraged. The Bill gives greater powers to control this type of indiscriminate shooting. The Bill will serve a good purpose for the primary producer, and I com'mend it to the House.


The Bill was read a second tim~, and committed, pro forma.

Mr. HAMER (Chief Secretary) presented a ,message from His Excellency the Governor recommending


that an appropriation be made from the Consolidated :Fundfor :the purposes of this Bill.

The House went into Committee to consider the message.

Mr. ·HAMER (Chief Secretary).-I move-

That it is expedient that Ian appropriation be made from .the Consolidated Fund for the purposes of a Bill to amend the Firearms Act 1958 with respect to the licensing of persons to use, carry, or possess firearms, to amend ,the Game Act 1958, .and for other purposes.

Mr. WILKES (Northcote).----Could the Chief Secretary inform the House why an appropriation is needed for this Bill? .It appears to ·me that the Bill provides for the collecting of revenue and I am rather surprised to discover that an appropriation is ne'eded to collect revenue. I should have thought the position would be the reverse.

Mr. HAMER (Chief Secretary).I believe the reason in this case is simply that there is a deflecting of revenue. Revenue which was formerly collected' from the registration of centre-fire rifles will cease and in its place there will be a different form of licensing, namely, that of a shooter, which may include a permit allowing a person to possess centre-fire rifles. This appears to be the reason for the approQpriation resolution. I think it is somewhat technical but this appears toO be following a precedent and therefore· I presume an appropriation is needed for this purpose.

The motion was agreed to, and the. resolution was reported to. the House and adopted.

The House went into Committee for the consideration ·of this Bill.

Clause 1 was agreed to.

Clau~e 2 (Repeal of interpretation of " Firearm ") .

Mr. HAME~ (Chief Secretary).This Bill has attracted widespread interest and discussion. It is almost a surprise to' find the Bill reaching

the Committee stage with the unanimous support of honorable members. I can reduce the various arguments which have been put forward to six main points, to which I shall .make a reply.

It is fairly obvious that the Opposition is seeking the registration of the firearm itself. However, this Bill proceeds on an entirely different principle which was firmly proposed by the Statute Law Revision Committee in 1966 after a thorough inquiry, including the hearing of evidence of a cogent kind from the very people who subsequently made the submission to which the honorable member for Coburg referred. The reasons were set out in great clarity and I .adopt the excellent reasoning and conclusions of the Statute 'Law Revision Committee.

Whatever kind of registration of firearms is adopted it will be cumbersome, which is the word I used in my explanatory second-reading speech. If registration of individual firearms is to be carried out properly a full register will have to be kept, and it would require an army of bureaucrats to keep track of every sale or gift of a firearm. Having done that, would we have progressed any further in the solving of crime? It must be remembered that although a motor car has a number plate which can sometimes be sighted, it is not often that a criminal leaves his firearm at the scene of a crime. After lengthy experience, it is the view of the Police Force that registration of firearms will not enable the police to solve crimes. The whole process of keeping track of one-half million firearms in Victoria would be an immense task, an imposition on the ordinary citizens who own them, and would have a doubtful advantage, if any. These are the reasons why the Statute Law Revision Committee rejected t1;le proposal that firearms be registered individually, and that is why the Government rejects it.


The second point related to trespass on farms and the particular effect of the provision in the IFirearms Act which deals with this subject. I am prepared to look at the question of penalties raised by honorable members, but point out that the new provisions contained in the Bill relating to trespass to farms will provide an additional way of disciplining the actual trespasser. I am impressed with the suggestion that the -licence should contain a warning that it is not a licence to go on to a person's private property. That is a good suggestion which can be implemented. The licence should also contain a warning of the penalties for trespass. In that way it may help to protect the farmer from this sort of depredation. The important point is that a person who is guilty of trespass to farms can, after conviction, have his licence to use any weapon withdrawn, and that is one of the intentions of this Bill. A person who shows himself to' transgress one or other part ·of the Act will lose his licence, and will also lose his firearm.

·Mr. IMcCABE.-Under the Game Act, too?

Mr. HAIMER.-That is so. To some extent, this Bill will assist in the greater disciplining of vandals who go on to farms without permission, especially those who cause damage to livestock, tanks, fencing, and so on.

The third point raised related to the "good reason to possess a firearm," which this Bill requires. Honorable members will recognize that it is difficult to define in an Act of Parliament what the "good reasons" might be, but I certainly would not exclude the reason raised by the honorable member for Sunshine who sought an assurance that a reasonable requirement for self-protection would be one of the good reasons for having a firearm. It is up to the issuing officer to determine whether an applicant has good reason for possessing a gun.

In country areas I should imagine that most people, because of their livelihood,would be issued with a licence virtually without giving a reason. This will not be a great bar, but is more of a safeguard to exclude from possession of firearms those people who have no reason to have them, or who disqualify themselves for other reasons. One would need to have a good reason for having a highpowered centre-fire rifle. For a shotgun, or pea rifle, something less would do.

It has been suggested that the provisions in the Bill will raise revenue of approximately $1·5 million. I almost wish that were true, but certainly it will not be so. I question the estimate given by the Sporting Shooters Association that in Victoria there are 750,000 shooters. If that is correct, it means that approximately one in five of the population, including children, are shooters' ; therefore I doubt whether the figure is near the mark. The Statute Law Revision Committee arrived at a figure of approximately 200,000 shotguns and somewhat ·more pea rifles in the State.

Mr. WILKEs.-That was in 1966. Mr. HA'MER.-That is so. If there

are 450,000 weapons in Victoria, some of these, including the .four weapons of the honorable member for Coburg, would be held in multiple ownership, as it were. Only one fee would be payable in respect of these multiple ownerships. A number of firearms would be held by farmers who will not be required to pay fees, and this will cut down the revenue considerably. An estimate of $600,000 is as near as I can get to the expected revenue.

'Mr. WILKES.-Will a shooter pay only one fee for four firearms?

IMr. HAMER.-That is so. A licence will be given to a person to hold firearms and he can have as many as he likes. It would seem that $600,000 is as near as I can get to a fair estimate. If it is greater than


that 1 shall be pleased, as it will add to the funds to provide sound wildlife management through the Fisheries and Wildlife Branch.

The fifth .matter raised referred to the real efficacy of this Bill in preventing arm'ed holdups. When explaining the 'Bill ,I was careful to point out that no one could expect that its provisions would cause armed holdups to cease overnight, or even have 'an immediate m:arked effect. The most that can be said is that the control of firearms under the prOVISIons of this Bill will make it a little more difficult for people to get them. To some extent the initial purchase of firearms is controlled and it will not be quite as easy to take, borrow, or purchase a firearm as in the past. 1 do not put it any higher than that, but it is a contributing step to the prevention of armed holdups.

Finally, the main point ·made by the D:eputy Leader of the Opposition was that the Bill should be referred to the Statute Law Revision Committee. As 'a fOTm'er member of that committee, as most honorable members seem to be, 'I have a high regard for the Statute Law Revision Committee; but if a matter of policy is involved a Bill should not be referred to that committee. That is the way to stultify any committee and the Govemm'ent considers that this Bill is a policy matter which it has adopted and submitted to Parliament, and for which it takes responsibility. There is no doubt about the ability of the Statute Law Revision Committee to deal with the measure, but it is the Government which must take responsibility for it. 1 am indebted to honorable members for their examination of the Bill.

,Many points were raised during the debate. By summarizing these points, 1 hope 1 have covered most of the matters raised by honorable members. I agree with the Deputy Leader of the Country Party that, in the early stages, there will be a good deal of administration

Mr. Hamer.

work fOor the Police Force. 1 have noted the honorable member's suggestion to take in some reservists during the first six months while the initial registrations are taking place. I doubt whether it is possible to channel the sale of second-hand guns through -licensed second-hand dealers. The Government is not trying to prevent traffic of weapons amongst those people who are licensed to use them as shooters, although I am sure licensed gun dealers would welcome such a provision. Before doing that the provisions contained in the Bill will be given a trial.

1 am confident that the post office will undertake the sale of the game stamps. Negotiations are not quite completed because discussions must still take place on what the Post Office will charge, but I am confident that in principle this will be done.

The honorable member for Coburg apparently is under the impression that the Wildlife 'Management Fund will provide some wonderful bonanzas for sporting clubs. 'I can assure him that this will not occur as the funds which will be raised by means of this measure will be used for research and for the purchase and managemen t of wildlife reserves generally. There will be no funds available for individual clubs, exclusive or otherwise, and there will be a clear commitment for all the moneys that are collected.

Mr. MCCABE.-.;WiII any funds be applied to junior shooters?

'Mr. HAMER.-Some f.unds will be applied to junior shooters.

'Mr. MUTToN.-That is being done now.

'Mr. HAMER.-That is so, but the honorable member for Coburg had in mind something -like the Para Park Co-operative Game Reserve. I can assure the honorable member that the funds will be applied to public reserves.

The honorable member for Benambra raised the question of Aborigines,' and other suggestions were made


that there might be some classes of people, in addition to primary producers, who might be exempted from holding a licence. I presume the honorable member had in mind exemptions from fees, but it is considered that such people should carry a licence the same as anyone else.

Another possibility is that pensioners should receive an exemption from fees. I should like a little time to consider these two categories of people and I undertake to have an examination made of this point before the Bill reaches another place and, if necessary, will seek to have an am'endment included in the Bill enabling exemptions to be made in certain cases.

The honorable member for Benalla raised for consideration the question of whether, especially in relation to the hunting of deer, some ·conditions should be attached to the licence so that not only the shooter was controlled but also his dogs. This seems to be a separate question, but I will certainly see that it is considered. If I have omitted some points which were raised during the debate, I expect that I will be reminded of them during the Committee stage.

Mr. WILKES (Northcote).-I com'mend the honorable .member for Polwarth for his knowledge of the subject of the Bill and for his reasoned contribution to the debate. I cannot make the same comment about the honorable member for Hawthorn. I thank the Chief Secretary for the courteous way in which he replies on matters raised by honorable members. I agree with the honorable gentleman up to a point. If he, unlike his predecessor, believes that matters of policy should not be referred to a standing committee, his view may gain some support in the House. That view was not shared by his predecessor who arranged ~or Bills of this nature to be referred to the Statute Law ReVISIon Committee although they already reflected the policy of his

Govern·ment. I do not hold his view against the Chief Secretary; indeed, I support it to some extent.

I remind the honorable member for Hawthorn that his lack of experience is exceeded only by his stupidity in relation to the report of the Statute Law Revision Com,mittee as it applies to clause 2 of this Bill. The honorable member should be sensible enough to read the objectives of the ·commi ttee and the recommendations it made but, unfortunately, he does not have that capability or even the potential for it. The Statute Law Revision Committee reported in 1964 on the desirability of restricting the use of shot-guns. In clause 16 of the report, which appears at page 4, the committee stated-

Before a registration certificate can be issued for a firearm within the meaning of the Firearms Act, the police must be s·atisfied that the 'applicant conforms with the following requirements :-Clause 2 of the Bill removes this provision from the Act. The Chief Secretary was kind enough to say that the requirements for the registration of shot-guns in this measure are something less than would be required of the police in issuing a fireann certificate as the legislation now stands. The requirements listed in paragraph 16 of the report were--

(a) that the applicant has good reason for purchasing and having in his possession .the firearm or firearms in respect of which the 'application is made;

(b) that the applicant is not a person who by this Aot or any law is pro,hibited from purchasing being in possession of or carrying such a firearm or firearms; and

(c) that the applicant is not a person of intemperate habits or unsound mind or otherwise unfitted to be entrusted with such a firearm or fire-farms.

The firearms referred to would be rifles and pistols. Paragraph 16 continued-

In order to check that an applicant conforms with these requirements, a policeman would have to spend at least two or three hours making 'inquiries, before being in a position to determine whether the registration certificate should be granted.


Paragraph 17 stated-It is estimated that there are approxi

mately 150,000 shot-guns in Victoria and it is the opinion of the majority of the witnesses that although registration of shot-guns could be desirable, the ·administrative work and cost involved would far outweigh any benefit to be derived from the keeping of the records. In addition, if the registration of shot-guns could be justified, it would be necessary to also introduce licensing for an estimated 180,000 pea rifles, ·as these weapons figure far more prominently in shooting offences than shQ~-guns.

The Chief Secretary has updated the number of shot-guns to 200,000, and I agree that that figure would be right, and the number of pea rifles would now be about 220,000.

The reason for the recommendation of the committee was that, if the police had to spend up to three man-hours in making inquiries for the registration of each of what would now be 200,000 shot-guns and 220,000 pea rifles, they would be doing nothing else. This is the basis of the recommendation with which my name was associated, and, on this basis, I support it without equivocation. The honorable member for Hawthorn said that I hinted that the Bill should be referred to the Statute Law Revision Committee. I do not know where the honorable member found grounds for using the term" hinted". I suggested that the Bill be referred to that committee because the committee may well have seen fit to recommend that, when a person applied for a shooter's licence, he should indicate on the application form the type of weapon for which he wanted the certificate, or, if he wanted a certificate for, say, four or five weapons, the types and number.

That is quite different from the type of registration to which I objected in 1964. Of course it is impractical fora policeman to spend three hours on inquiries in relation to the 'registration of a weapon. I have not investigated the ·matter but it ·may well be possible and practical for the information to be supplied by the applicant for a shooter's licence on the application form. A problem may arise in the registration

Mr. Wilkes.

of this information, but what .I have suggested would certainly overcome the problem of a policeman spending three hours on each registration. Other problems may arise, and the process may cost money, but, if the community wants control over shotguns and ·22 rifles, it must be prepared to pay for it. Even if it were necessary to charge more for a licence, control of these weapons should be considered on that basis.

That is the only reason I suggested that the Bill be referred to the Statute Law Revision Committee. If I were to take to its logical conclusion the argument on why other Bills have been sent to the committee, I could support my position at great length, but I am concemed with clause 2 of the Bill, which removes some important provisions from the Act.

The honorable member for Polwarth did not regard the firearm certificate as important. There was a difference of opinion on this and, to be fair, opinion imay have changed since the matter was considered by the Statute Law Revision Committee. The police who appeared before the committee said that it was important that they knew who had high-powered rifles which should be the subject of firearm certificates. The opinion of the police may be quite different today. But clause 2 of the Bill removes from the Act a very important check on highpowered rifles and pistols. The whole of secUon 22 of the Act is deleted. I hope something is provided to take its place to control pistols and the issuing of licences for them. Twelve th'Ousand licences have been issued. The police have great power under section 22 of the principal Act. As it is proposed to omit section 22, will the Chief Secretary consider an amendment between now and when the Bill is transmitted to another place or before the completion of the Committee stage to ensure that the control on pistols now existing under section 22 will be continued?


The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. Suggett).-Order! The honorable member for Northcote is referring to section 22 of the principal Act which is amended by clause 4.

Mr. WILKES.-Section 5 of the principal Act relates to the interpretation of firearms. If the provision covering pistols is to be removed, it is important that the matter should be exam1ined.

Mr. HAMER (Chief Secretary).The honorable member for Northcote is referring to clause 4 dealing with sub-sections (1), (2) and (3) of section 22 which provide for the granting of firearm certificates. Those sub-sections are to be repealed and similar sub-sections referring solely to pistol licences are to be substituted. The provisions which allow for the existing controls of pistol licences are to be retained. The fears of the honorable member for Northcote can be set at rest.

The clause was agreed to, as was clause 3.

Clause 4, providing for the prohibition of purchasing a pistol, etc., without a licence, and providing for an application for a pistol licence

Mr. WILKES (Northcote).-I stand corrected by the Chief Secretary. It appears that there is sufficient cover for pistols. Proposed subsection (3) of section 22 of the principal Act provides-

Every pistol licence shall be in the prescribed form and shall specify the nature and the number of the pistol to which it relates and shall authorize the holder to purchase (if necessary) and to have :in his possession and carry the pistol to which it relates.

That is an important cover that I overlooked. I was looking at the principal Act and particularly what was being repealed rather than what was being substituted. Some consideration is being given to the 12,000 pistol licences issued each year. I accept the assurance of the Chief Secretary.

The clause was agreed to.

Clause 5, providing for an application for a shooter's licence.

Mr. WILKES (Northcote).-Under this clause police will be charged with the responsibility on application of determining that an applicant is not under the age of eighteen years ; that he is of good character and has not been convicted of an indictable offence or an offence punishable on summary conviction by imprisonment for not less than three months; that he has good reason to possess a firearm, not being a pistol; and that he is not otherwise unfitted to be entrusted with the handling, use and care of firearms of the category referred to in his application. The police will also have to ensure that the conditions on his application are supported by a statutory declaranon.

'l suggest to the Chief Secretary that this must create a great deal of work. In debating whether reference should be made 'Vo the weaponwhether it be a shot-gun, ·22 rifle or centre-fire rifle--and to the. make or serial number on the certificate, I advance the viewpoint that this would not entail much more than the present responsibility for the policeman. Further, how are the police going to determine whether or not an application conforms to the conditions that are laid down? On a previous occasion the Statute Law Revision Committee was told that it took three hours for a policeman to determine fewer conditions than are now pr'Oposed, although the Chief Secretary said that the work was a

. great deal less. I do not question that if a licence is to be issued, these conditions should apply. It will still create a good deal of work for the police. If the applicant swears to his application, that in itself will not be sufficient. Apparently, the policeman will have to check the application to ascertain whether all of the conditions have been complied with. It would not take up much more of the policeman's time if he

4560 Firearms [ASSEMBLY. ] (Amendment) Bill.

had to check the se'rial number or the type or make of the firearms in possession of the applicant.

I strongly urge the Chief Secretary to consider this suggestion. The proposal is going half way towards registering shot-guns and pea rifles. It appears to me that there is an argument for obtaining more information about the firearm on the application form when it is presented originally to the police. Whether the police used it or not, at least they would be in possession of that information. Provided that information was registered, if a gun were fo~nd at ~he scene of a crime, the InfonnatlOn would be invaluable. That is all I am asking the Chief Secretary to consider.

Mr. HAMER (Chief Secretary).The Government wants to make the application and the procedure for. obtaining a licence as simple as possIble. Certain provisions in the Bill aTe designed for that purpose. What the Government has in mind is that the application will simply be ~ade in writing. Where it can be verIfied by statutory declaration-as to a person's age, lack of convictions, and so on.-....;that will be incorporated in the application. In the v~st maj~rity of cases it will be possIble to 'Issue a licence' on the spot, especially in the country where people will be well known to the local police. Only in cases where there is any doubt about the immediate issue of a licence will there be any need for further "investigation. It is not expected t~at the ordinary issue of a lIcence WIll take two or three hours or anything like that; it is more likely to take only a few minutes.

The Deputy Leader of the Opposition suggests that there should also be recorded on the licence serial numbers of all the shot-guns and pea rifles which the owner has at that time and I stress the words " at that time'". He would have to bring them to the police station to be noted and verified. If he bought another he would have to report that and have it

added to his licence; if he sold one it would have to be st'ruck off. All of this would be to no purpose unless a central register of serial numbers was kept, which of course would have to be kept up to date. I pointed out previously that this would be a lot of work. An enormous staff in a large building ,in Carlton records the registration of motor cars of which there are some 1·5 million in the State. There are about half a million various types of weapons which it is proposed to try to keep a check on. I do not believe this would be easy and it would require the creation of a bureaucratic colossus.

No honorable member has yet pointed out how this procedure could help in the solution of crime. Unless a person left a firearm at the scene of a crime, it would not be possible to check the serial number. The view of the police is that this proposal would not help them, and that is also the Government's view. I do not discount the possibility of assistance if some way can be found of simplifying the registTation procedure, with computers or something of that sort. If the police were convinced that this procedure would help in the detection of crime, it would be considered. The present view is that all of the bureaucratic nonsense which would be required .is simply not worth the trouble, and that it would be an insult to the majority of licence holders who are law abiding.

Mr. WHITING (Mildura).-I wish to raise three points in regard to this clause, two of which I mentioned in the second-reading debate. Although the Chief Secretary answered several queries, I should like some indication whether there is any merit in the matters which I intend to raise. The first is whether any monetary incentive could be given to encourage applicants for shooters' licences to take out a three-year licence, which would be a little less work for the police.

The second point relates to an exemption for professional people such as veterinary surgeons and


stock inspectors who on occasions require to use a rifle or a shot-gun in preference to a pistol. I wish to be informed whether they could be given some exemption or obtain a permit under conditions different from those of the ordinary shooter's licence.

The third point I raise is that application forms for shooters' licences will be available at police stations and at " such other places as are approved by the Chief Commiss'ioner of Police". I wonder what the Government has in mind when it refers to " such other places". I point out that one-man stations are closed for certain periods and that it may not be easy for a person to obtain an application form. I should like to be informed where the "other places" will be.

Mr. HAMER (Chief Secretary).With respect to three-year l'icences, I believe there will be some incentive in that the applicant will avoid the necessity for re-applying every year. But I should be glad to give consideration to the question whether some monetary advantage should be provided as well in the form of some reduction in the fee for a three-year licence. That may have something to commend it. The Government' will certainly examine that matter before the Bill reaches another place.

I believe I did deal with the question of some exemptions, and I referred particularly to Aborigines and pensioners. I will add to that consideration professional officers such as veterinary surgeons and persons who use shot-guns for starting boat races.

Finally, what was intended by the reference to places other than police stations as spots where application forms may be obtained is that in suitable places there will be supplies, perhaps at the local fisheries and wildlife office, if there is one, or a gun dealer's shop-places which shooters are likely to frequent and where they can pick up application forms readily.

It will not be possible for the application forms to be lodged at those places, but they may be obtained there.

Mr. MUTTON (Coburg).-I direct the attention of the Chief Secretary to several matters. I think it was Ben Chifley who once said that a man's most sensitive nerve is in his hip pocket. Those words are appropriate in relation to this clause which makes prOVISIon for fees for shooters' licences. I direct the attention of the Chief Secretary to paragraph (b) of sub-section (4) of proposed section 22AA, which provides-

A shooter's licence may at any time whilst it is in force be extended to authorize the holder to hunt take or kill-

(i) duck-by affixing to the licence a current duck stamp or duck stamps which shall be issued upon payment ofa fee of $3 for any year or part of ·a year of the unexpired .period of the licence;

(ii) quail-by affix,ing to the licence a current quail stamp or quail stamps which shall be issued upon payment ofa fee of $2 for any year or part of a year of the unexpired period of the licence;

(iii) deer-by affixing to the licence a current deer stamp or deer stamps which shall be ·issued upon payment of a fee of $10 for any year or par:t of a year of the unexpired period of the licence-

and such additional fee shall be paid by affixing to the licence ,a stamp denoting payment of the appropriate fee.

I ask the Chief Secretary to give consideration to reducing the fee for a duck licence from $3 to' $2 per year. I offer that suggestion because anyone who is interested in the great outdoors, particularly a duck shooter, will realize that the three main corridors used by ducks when m·oving between Victoria and New South Wales are along the River Murray, the Darling River and the Murrumbidgee River. Often, owing to seasonal variations, Victorians are in the predicament that .they cannot shoot in this State because the birds have gone to the Murray, the Darling, or the Murrumbidgee.

4562 Firearms (ASSEMBLY.] (Amendment) Bill.

If the Bill is passed as drafted, a Victorian duck shooter will be called upon to pay $2 for a basic shooter's licence, plus $3 for a Victorian duck licence, and $4 for a New South Wales licence for the privilege of shooting on the River Murray, which is New South Wales territory. Consideration should be given to making the duck licence fee uniform with that of New South Wales. If the duck licence was reduced from $3 to $2 in Victoria, the payment of the $2 shooter's licence and $2 duck licence would be comparable with the fee paid in New South Wales.

I ask the Chief Secretary what consideration is being given to a person who intends to shoot only ducks. He may interest himself in quail or deer occasionally, but he is concerned almost exclusively with one major avenue of sport. However, if he wishes to participate in all types of shooting he will have to outlay $2 for a shooter's licence, $3 foor a duck licence, $2 for a quail licence and $10 for a deer licence, a total of $17. If the birds have taken flight and gone into New South Wales, he will have to pay another $4. Many honorable members may have little or no knowledge 'Of the activities of shooting sportsmen, and will probably take note only of what appears in the Bill. Any honorable me.mber who is concerned with shooting as a sport wiU probably co:mprehend what I am trying to convey. Duck sho'Oting could become an expensive sport. I ask the Chief Secretary to ·consider amending the duck licence fee {r,om $3 to $2.

Mr. McCABE (Lowan).-It appears that there is a difference of opinion concerning the amount of money which will be raised by the fees that are set out in paragraph (b) -of sub-section (4) of proposed section 22AA. The Chief Secretary seems to think that the amount raised will be about $600,000. If the amount collected in the first full year exceeds $1 milli,on, will he review the licence fees of $3 for duck, $2 for quail and $10 for deer? According to the number of registered

duck shooters last year, the a.mount raised from this source was about $100,000. I believe fewer people take out quail Hcences. Older people can sit in a boat or stand on the bank ofa river and shoot ducks, but they will not or perhaps cannot walk after quail. I ask the Chief Secretary to consider this ·matter if the amount raised reaches $1 million. As the honorable gentleman is quite certain it will not, I presume he will give me this assurance.

Sub-section (9) of proposed section 22AA provides, inter alia-

The Chief Commissioner may cancel the shooter's licence of any person if 'in the Chief Commissioner's opinion the licensee-Four reasons why the licence may be .cancelledare given. The Chief Secretary mentioned that a 'shooter's licence could be cancelled if the holder contravened the Game Act. I ask the honorable gentleman to explain which provision of paragraphs (a), (b), (c) land (d) of sub-section (9) provides 'foor this; because the point does not appear to be covered.

Mr. WILKES (Northcote).-I 'wish to rais'e fue point whether duck shooters' licences should be continued. On the figures supplied ·,to 'me by the Chief Secretary, ahout 33,000 duck shooters' licences were issued last year, and this number could only have increased in 1971. I again draw attention to the 1964 report ·of the Statute Law Revision Committee on this matter. On page 5 of the report, the committee stated-

19. The majority of the witnesses who appeared before the committee was in favour of the introduction of a shooting licence; It has been suggested, and the committee supports this view, that the licensing of all shooters would ·aetas ·a stabilizing influence on the sport.

20. Any person who .applied for permission to shoot on a property, could be requested to produce a licence and the information from it, which could include his name and address, would act as a deterrent to shooters acting irrespo.nsibly whil~ on the property. This is similar to the matter raised by the honorable member for Polwarth.


. 21. Revenue derived from duck shooting lIcences has been used by .the Fisheries and Wildlife Department for .the preservation of flora and fauna and the provision of game reserves, and any additional revenue obtained from the extension of the licence would prove of considerable assistance in expanding work ,in this field.

22. The committee supports the proposal to licence all shooters and accordingly recommends that the current duck shooting licence be abolished and replaced by a licence to be issued to all shooters.

The committee recommended to the Government that because revenue from duck shooters' licences yielded only about $100,000 a year and was not increasing significantly, it should be replaced by a shooter's licence. Now that 'a shooter's licence .is proposed, consideration should be given to the aspect of the report that I have quoted.

Mr. HAMER (Chief Secretary).-I inform the honorable member for Coburg that duck shooters pay $3 a year now for their licences in Victoria and $4 in New South Wales. No representations have been made for a reduction in the amount and it is reasonable that it should remain at the present figure. If New South Wa,les should bring in this system of li~ensi~g of shooters, the argument wIll dlsappea'r. I am sorry for the people on the wrong bank of the River Murray, but Victoria did not lay down the boundary. Of course we could take exception and say that it should be at least in the m!iddle of the river. I believe the fee should stay at $3.

I point out to the honorable member for Lowan that the people who represent the shooters, the Sporting Shooters Association of Australia and the Victorian Field and Game Association-my comments a,Iso relate to the remarks of the Deputy Leader of the Opposition-aU approve of the licensing of shooters and the affixing of game stamps to licences for spec:ific types of game. These people have produced a form which even mentions snipe and hares, but the Government has not adopted that suggestion.

'Mr. WILKEs.-They do not represent all shooters.

,Mr. HAMER.-They represent a good many of them. The point is that these people derive some special benefit from the activities of the Fisheries and Wildlife Branch in research and in the purchase, maintenance and development of game swamps, wet lands and so on. Therefore, it is only reasonable that they should pay a small sum for their sport, and they are willing to do so.

I t is proper that there should be a basic shooter's licence and those who want special requirements f.or their sport should make some contribution towards achieving their objectives. The Government has adopted these principles and I cannot agree to any modification.

Mr. SHILTON (Midlands).-When he is considering the fees, I urge the Chief Secretary to consider the plight of pensioners, a number of whom are shooters. The Government should charge them a reduced fee as is done with angling licences at present.

The olause was agreed to.

Clause 6 (Offences).

Mr. MACLELLAN (Gippsland West) .-This clause relates to offences and penalties. When explaining the Bill, as reported at page 3965 of Hansard, the Chief Secretary indicated that an amnesty would be considered before the measure was proclaimed. The Minister said that three previous amnesties had produced a total of 2,260 firearms, including a machine gun. Obvious'ly, all honorable members are anxious to encourage public co-operation with this proposed new law. In doing so, the same old amnesty whereby somebody hands in a very valuable rifle which is in effect confiscated is not the most satisfactory approach. I believe the amnesty should go further. It should be an amnesty to allow a person to take a rifle not presently registered to the police station and to obtain a licence. The fact that the person has illegaUy held it until now under the


existing legislation should not be counted against him in applying for a shooter's licence under this new legislation.

If the Government takes the amnesty that step further, there could be far more success in achieving registration and control over weapons which are presently in the hands of people who have had no respect fo'r the existing law but could be encouraged to bring themselves within the law. This change from the present system of registering rifles to the registration of shooters gives Parliament, the Chief Secretary and his department, the opportunity of making a fresh start with these people.

This sort of amnesty should be widely publicized not amongst sho'oters or shooters' clubs, because after all they are a most responsible section and probably all currently hold licences, but on television and in newspapers in the hope that people who are now breaking the law can be encouraged to bring themselves within the new law. If they do so it is to be hoped that they will conduct themselves in a way which is in accord with the spirit of this new legislation.

I hope all parties in this Parliament will support the suggestion so that the Chief Secretary will be able to go ahead in the knowledge that he has the support of all honorable members in providing not the usual sort of amnesty but one which overlooks past offences and brings people within the scope of the legislation and within the spirit which we are trying to get in this area of legislation.

Mr. WILKES (Northcote).-Proposed SUb-section (2A) of section 23 provides, ~nter alia-

The provisions of sub-section (2) with respect to having in possession a firearm without being .the holder ofa shooter's licence or a permit or other authority under this Part so to do shall not apply-

(a) where the holder of such a licence, permit, or other ,authority dies-to the possession by the widow of the deceased or by his executor or administrator at any time within six months after death of the deceased of any firearm with respect to which

the deceased held .the licence, pennit, or other authority ,at the time of his death; or

Tha t means that the widow or the executor has to hand in the firearm. If the widow renders the firearm unserviceable it cannot be defined as a firearm under the Act. The widow may want to take out the breach block or fill the barrel with lead be:cause the rifle has a sentimental value. I am wondering whether she would be penni tted to Keep it under th'Ose conditions.

Mr. HAMER (Chief Secretary).The honorable member for Gippsland West has made a good suggestion. It is intended to have an amnesty for a definite period, probably three months, before the Act comes into operation. During that period also, time w'ill be given for people to obtain licences as shooters so that the two things would run simultaneously. I agree that the terms of the amnesty ,could be extended quite readily to incorporate people who have been committing an offence up to date by possessing a 'rifle without having a firearm certificate. I will adopt the suggestion and ensure that it is carried out. I will also ensure that adequate publicity is given to the amnesty and the need to obtain a shooter's licence by a certain date.

What the Deputy Leader of the Opposition proposes would be quite possible because if a firearm were ,rendered inoperative it would not qualify as a firearm within the Act, and therefore could be retained. I will have this checked and advise the honorable member.

The clause was agreed to, as were the remaining clauses.

The Bill was reported to the House without amendment, and the report was adopted.

Mr. HAMER (Chief Secretary).I move-

That this Bill be now read a third time.

Mr. MITCHELL (Benambra).-I want to leave one thought in the minds of honorable members before the Bill is transmitted to another place, namely, that national safety


can depend on marksmanship. That was demonstrated in the days of Crecy, Poitiers, and Agincourt. The Boers defeated us heavily at Magersfontein, Stormberg, Colenso, Spion Kop, and Majuba because of steady, practised rifle fire. These lessons were learnt in the Boer War and put into practice by our Army when the Germans swept down in grey hordes on Paris in 1914 and the rifle fire was so intense that the Germans thought they were up against machine guns. I leave that thought with honorable members.

The motion was agreed to, and the Bill was read a third time.

VICTORIAN ARTS CENTRE BILL. This Bill was returned from the

Council with a message relating to an amendment.

It was ordered that the message be taken into consideration next day.

ADJOURNMENT. ROAD SAFETY AND TRAFFIC AUTH

ORITY: McNAUGHTON ROAD AND PRINCES HIGHWAY INTERSECTION -EDUCATION DEPARTMENT: PAYMENT OF SCHOOL LEVIES IN

. RESERVOIR ELECTORATE.

Mr. HAMER (Chief Secretary).-I move-

That the House, at its rising, adjourn until tomorrow, at half-past Three o'clock.

The motion was agreed to. Mr. HAMER (Chief Secretary).-I

move-That the House do now ,adjourn. Mr. BILLING (Heatherton).-I wish

to draw to the attention of the Chief Secretary a matter which received considerable publicity in the Dandenong Journal 'issued yesterday. It concert:ls the busy intersection of McNaughton Road and Princes Highway, North Clayton. This intersection is located in 'a 50-mile-an-hour speed zone. The roads carry tens of thousands of motor vehicles a day, of all sizes ranging from heavy transports to Mini-Minors. The Oakleigh City Council m'akes certain allegations against the Road Safety and Traffic

Authority and in the article in the Dandenong Journal it is alleged that-

The Oakleigh council applied to the Road Safety and Traffic Commission in .the financial year 1969-70 =to have lights installed and a subsidy of $6,400 was granted towards the cost. This was increased to $8,000 the following year. No designs were supplied.

In 1971 council wrote to the .authority requesting it to indicate when council would be required ,to match its subsidy and asking when it would supply designs.

About a year later the authority ,replied: "It is now considered that stop/go signals should not be provided at present."

On behalf of the many large business concerns and, in particular, the hundreds of men and women employed in that area, I appeal to the Chief Secretary to have this matter investigated urgently. It has been br.ought to a head by the unfortunate death of a woman employee of Robert Bosch Pty. Ltd. a fortnight ago. She was the second employee of this firm to be killed in the past :four years. Altogetiler the:re 'have been f.our fatalities involvling employees .of firm'S established 'in the area. On behalf of the council, the emploOyers and the many motorists who run the gauntlet of this intersection many times a day, I appeal to the Chief Secretary to give favourable consideration to the installation of traffic lights at this intersection.

Mr. SIMMONDS (Reservoir).-I desire to raise a matter relating to' the administratioOn .of the Minister of Education. It concerns three schools in the Reservoir electorate at which children are 'asked tOo stand up in class and justify the refusal of their parents to pay school levies and fees. I direct the attention of the Minister to twoO specific instances which have occurred. The first was at the Duffy Street Primary School where a girl aged seven in grade 2, and a hoy aged five in the preparatory grade, were charged a levy of $7. The parents of the children took the stand that they were paying for education by paying taxes. Subsequently, the children

1Jltgi!llntittt (!tunntil....T.S. Altona North .. 1 113 Newport 1 4440 Seaholme 1 3659 Spotswood . ....

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Transcript of 1Jltgi!llntittt (!tunntil....T.S. Altona North .. 1 113 Newport 1 4440 Seaholme 1 3659 Spotswood . ....