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"-S-~_+NODISI xoos

,MEMORANDUM OF CONVERSATION

PAR TICIPANTS: Dr. Henr y A. Kissinger, Secretary of State

and Assistant to the President foL'

National' Security A£;f'ai:rs

Dr. James R. Schlesinger, Secl"etaX'y of Defense

William Colby, Di.rector r Ge:ntl'al Intelligence

Agency

Philip A:reedaJ Depufy Counsel to the President

Mr. Laurence Spbet'man1 Deputy Attorney Gen er

Martin R. Hoffman, General Counsel,

Department of "Defense

Lt. General :Brant Scowcroft, Deputy AfSsistant

to the P:resident·£o:r. National Security A££a;i.:r

DATE AND TIME: Thursday, February 20, 1975

10 :36 - 11 :33 a.rn,

PLACE: Secretary Kia singer 1 1 ; 1 Office

The White House

SUBJEC'l': Investigation"o! Allegations of CIA Domestic

A ct.ivit.ie s

§!!.cretary Kis singer: Sh6uldll'It we dililc\.1.$s what we are trying to

achieve in these investigations and what we are t:r:ying to prevent?

The fact of these imrestigations could be a.s darnag.lng to the

intelligence community as McCarthy was to the Foreign Service.

The nature of covert operations will have a curious a spe ct to the

average rrrind and out of perspective it could look inexplicable. The

res:ult could be the drying up of the" Imagfnattcns of the people on which

we depend. Ifpeople think they will be indicted ten years later for what

they do. That is nlY ov evwhe lrrri.ng concern.

~~J.NO:OIS/XGDS

NSA, I do:n1t know what the abuses are.

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Sec~,etary Schlesinger: Legally NSA is epotile ea •

.2!:.ct<etary Kissinger: If they are only locking at illeg~.l activities.

Mr. Silberman: There aren't enough illegal activities for them to

chew on.

Dil"ector Colby:: Th.e issue 'Vifillpel do we do these things?

Mr, Arecda: Chur-ch says he ' s going to look into the Lega.l, moral

and political cc s t -effectdvene se aspects of it.

Secretary KissingE:,: Then we are in trouble. The committees and

staff don lt inspire confi den.ce; Harrington and Miller are professional

leakers. Miller is also violently anti~Vietnt\In and he believes the way

to get the govexnm ent is to leak it to death.

Director Colby: M.y idea to conrr ol. this is to get secrecy agreements.

That keeps them from publfahmg ,

Sec:,:etary Ki.ssinger: In their own names. You can1t keep them from 0

5y Hersh.

pi,l'ector Colby: Our testimony will have nurnbe r s in place of names,

We will divide thern into three categot'ie a in increasing order of

sensi tivi ty,

Secretary Kissingerr Wb.Q gets the lists?

Dj,rector Colby: The cha:i:r.men. It isunder their control. Ifhe insists

On a name in category 3, we then move carefully - - we either tell hirn ,

refuse on my own initiative. or buck it to the White House.

Secretar.y Ki$ aing er : You can initially take a posifi.on on professional

judgment, but then we must go to the President. Bill should invoke

hhnseU first sa as not to invoke the President initially in each case.

We must say this involves the pr ofounde st national security. Of course,

we want to cooperate. but these are basic is sues of national survival.

Mr. Ar eeda r Should the Pr esfdent meet with Towel: and Church tomake t h o ese points?

~/NODISIXGDS

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"SE€RE"f lNODIS!XGDS 3

Secretary Ki~singt;lr: In all the worfd, the things which hurt us the

most are the CIA business and Turkey aid. The British can't under-

stand us. Callaghan says ineiders there are routinely tapped. Our

sta.tements ought to indicate th~ gra.vity with which we view the situation.

Why can't Bill testify?

D!l"ectot" Colby: Narne s, countries of opel.·ations.

Secrel:a.ry_I}'.issinger: You can't even doLt by country X, And Church

wants to prove you shouldn't .doit at all.

Director Colby; I would do it in an executive session. Iiit leaks,

then we have a good case.

Mr. Silberm.an: !agree. Our position on exe curive privilege would be

better ifwe had a leak first.

Sec:relaty Kil3singer: ,What ifMille:r waited until aitel' the in.vestiga·tion

to go to Hersh?

Mr. Silberman: It won't hold that long. We first give ~hem.less sensitive

infoJ.":ma.!:ion) So if it Leak s we aren1t h1.lrt $0 much.

Sedetary Kissinger: .suppose you say on covert opel'ations tbat we

support the modexate PQ1'itic~1 parties? On a g'lcba.l basis that is okay,

but how does that serve Chu.r ch+s pur pos e ? He will theri jus t-pr-cve not

only if ) it immOl'al but useless. We have to demonstrate to foreign

countries we ar en+t too dangezous to cooperate with because of leaks,

Mr. Ar eeda s Is there any mileage in having the leaders of the select

ccrnrrri tfee have a . meeting with the President?

M r . S i l b e J : ~ ~ I t ' s p r e m a t u r e , They c o u l d o n l y discuss g e r i e ra.Htdea

be cauae we couldn't know the line yeot. We should keep the President

out of ituntil we get a . cr unch, .

:9!lcretary Kissingslr; I a.gree.

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-SECRE'X'fNODIS/ X~ 4

Mr. Silberma.n: The FBI may be the sexie st part of this. 1-foover

did things which won't stand scruttny, especially under Johnson. We

wUJ.put the se out in generic terms a s quickly as possible. The Eu:reau

would like to dribble if: out, This will divet't attention and show relative

coope:ration with the commirtee , Thil';'lrelates only to illegal activities,

(Kissinger relates story about Hoover and the female sJ?Y.]

Secretary Kissinger; We have to be clear on what we want them to stay

out of.

Director Colby: 1 will refuse to give them the files On people -- on

privacy grounds.

Mr. Ar-eeda.: That is a good case for a confr cnta tton,

Mr. Hoffman, But don't we have to preserve their ability to keep

security?

Secretary Kissinger; flal':dngton is a . Laakez -- any House member has

access to the lllaterial we turn oval'.

We can't fight on details -- only categories. We have to know

the rules about the NSA, covert 'operations and any other ar ea s,

Mr. Areeda: There is a . constitutional problem 02 + covert operations

We can't ta.ke the posture that we can engage in opera tions that were

kept il'om the committees which Congress has designated as responsible

for oversight.

Secretary Kis s:ingE;!r: Fit' at. we rnus t define the issues. Then we coul.d

go to court . . •

Mr .. Silberma.n. I doubt it would go to court -- itwould take two years.

Secretary I<issinger: Then we could go to the public that they are under-

mining the country.

Director Colby~ But we are doing so little in covert activities it;is

not too damaging.

SeCl'eta:ry Kis singer: Then dis closing them will show US to the world

as a cream puff.

~NOblS/XODS

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~R<-JBTINODIS/XGDS 5

Thei-e are dozens of places where we are letting the situationg0by default.

Let! s estab lish categ o rf e s o f especia lly sen sitiv e acttv td e s ,

Then whoever testifie:;l 'Will follow these guidelines.

Director Colby: The dangerous thing on NSA is whether they can pickup convel'sation.$ between Amel'ican,s.

p.ec:tetary Kissin.GLel": My worry is not that they will find illegalities in

NSA1 but that in the pl'oce 9S o . e finding out a bout illegalities they will

unravel l\ISAactivities. In the process of giving us a clean bill 0 :£ healthhe could desb'oy us,

Do we have a ca se on exs cuttve privilege?

Mr. Silb~rman: In the case of 'O J S. '9'. Ni4on, the re is 6onlething' there.

but you can+t analyze it on a strictly legal basis.

·Secreta.:ry Kissing_er: 1 think this group should establish cafegor ies of

wh.at we say, rne thoda for protecting what we need to keep. Then we

can. set down with the P:residenl:. to understand what the issue is.

Then we wcul.d avotd the dange:r. that to get th:rough each week

we would jeopardize the next week t s hearings.

~NODrS/:XGDS ..... , . . . ."