164.100.47.5164.100.47.5/newdebate/214/18122008/Fullday.pdfUncorrected/ Not for...

Uncorrected/ Not for publication-18.12.2008

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PB/1a/11.00

The House met at eleven of the clock, MR. CHAIRMAN in the Chair.

------- Q.No. 241

SHRI A. ELAVARASAN: Sir, the reply given by the hon. Minister is

incorrect because as per the report of the Parliamentary Standing

Committee, around 50,000 tonnes of wastes have been dumped. What

do you say on this?

SHRI NAMO NARAIN MEENA: Sir, as per the Notification, no waste is

permitted for dumping purposes in the country. Only waste material is

allowed for recycling purposes. However, what the hon. Member is

referring to, I will look into the matter.

SHRI A. ELAVARASAN: Sir, my second supplementary is, are there any

penal action by the UPA Government and by the minority Government of

Tamil Nadu on this illegal dumping? So, I would like to know whether

the Government would take any action to ban even the recyclable

wastes from other countries. If so, the details thereof. If not, the

reasons therefor.

SHRI NAMO NARAIN MEENA: Sir, as per the Notification, the imports

are regulated by the Ministry of Environment which gives the permission

and the DGFT issues the licence. As we know, Sir, there is a shortage

of some of the metals like lead, zinc, cadmium and copper in our

country. So, we are importing these things and we are encouraging the

industry to go for recycling purposes. There is concept of 3Rs, namely,

reduce, reuse and recycle. So, this is a well regulated system. We have


6

Q.No. 241 (Contd.)

brought the Notification in 2008. All the recycling industries are

registered and the prior consent of the country is obtained while

importing these things. So, there is no question of allowing the dumping

by the Tamil Nadu Government. It is all regulated by the Ministry and by

the DGFT.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shri A. Vijayaraghavan. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI A. VIJAYARAGHAVAN: Sir, in his reply, ...(Interruptions)...

SHRIMATI VASANTHI STANLEY: Sir, there is an objection. How can

the hon. Member refer to ... ...(Interruptions)...

MR. CHAIRMAN: Please sit down. ...(Interruptions)... Please, please.

...(Interruptions)... Let's not get into a discussion on this.

...(Interruptions)... Yes; Mr. A. Vijayaraghavan.

SHRI A. VIJAYARAGHAVAN: Mr. Chairman, Sir, in his reply, the hon.

Minister has mentioned that the recyclable wastes like metal scraps,

etc., are being used in our country. Actually, Sir, the country has

virtually become a dustbin of all kinds of hazardous wastes from all parts

of the world. India has become a destination of these kinds of things.

Do you have any proper checking? For example, these steel companies

are using the metal scraps, which is very much hazardous to the health,

and, as a result of it, high level pollution is also there. So, will the

Government make a proper enquiry in this regard or give an assurance

to this House that it will do a proper checking with regard to the re-

usage of these kinds of things in the country, and, especially, keep a


7

Q.No. 241 (Contd.)

check on those steel companies which are creating pollution in various

places, which is hazardous to the health of the ordinary people.

SHRI NAMO NARAIN MEENA: Sir, as I have stated in my reply, the

waste is banned in the country. There is no question of dumping or

sending the waste to our country. There is a well laid procedure. We

have brought out a notification in 2008.

(Contd. by 1b/SKC)

1b/11.00/skc

SHRI NAMO NARAIN MEENA (Contd.): All recycling industries are

registered and there is proper checking done. The Central Pollution

Control Board is monitoring the State Pollution Control Boards.

SHRI A. VIJAYARAGHAVAN: Sir, my question is specifically related to

steel companies which are using this particular scrap as raw material

and are creating pollution

SHRI NAMO NARAIN MEENA: Sir, we are importing scrap. As I have

said, recycling is economically beneficial and environmentally sound. In

our country, we have a shortage of Lead, Copper and Cadmium, as I

have said earlier, worldwide, the concept of three R's is on, not only in

this country and in developing countries, but also in the developed

countries. But it is all well regulated. Checks and balances are in place

and there is no question of dumping.

SHRI A. VIJAYARAGHAVAN: But there are violations and some action

must be taken against it.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Please do not interrupt. Mr. Anbalagan.


8

Q.No. 241 (Contd.)

SHRI S. ANBALAGAN: Sir, is there any other case of dumping waste by

Indian companies or the local companies? What action has been taken

in this regard?

SHRI NAMO NARAIN MEENA: Sir, a case was reported, a public

complaint was received, by the Tamil Nadu Pollution Control Board on

05.07.2008 that one ITC company which imports paper from foreign

countries, have engaged a contractor, SSR. Chandrashekar and

Company, for sorting out the material. On enquiry, it was found that 70

tonnes of segregated wastepaper imported by this company were

dumped in Kumaragelum and Salaigur villages. Notices were issued by

the Tamil Nadu Pollution Control Board upon which the company

removed that waste from the wells, and notices for disconnection of

electricity were issued. The matter went up to the High Court and the

High Court set aside the order, but that entire waste material is with the

ITC Company. The Government of India has issued circulars to the State

Governments that importers would have to ensure that all recyclable

material is actually recycled either by them or by other firms in the

business of recycling. This was noticed and action as per law has been

taken.

SHRI D. RAJA: Sir, pollution contributes in a big way to climate change

and global warming. I am happy to note that the hon. Prime Minister is

heading a commission to meet the challenges posed by global warming

and climate change. In this background, I would like to ask a specific

question. Tiruppur is a major centre for textile and oyster industries. It is


9

Q.No. 241 (Contd.)

also a major centre causing pollution. The dyers of Tiruppur have

constructed 20 central effluent treatment plants, investing Rs. 800 crores,

and they have to pay Rs. 100 crores as interest. They have done this

because the High Court directed them to do so. They have done this,

hoping that the Central Government and the State Government will

extend financial grant to them. It so happens that the Planning

Commission will have to give approval for this; only then the Textile

Ministry can respond to it. My question is, will the Planning Commission

give approval for these plants? I urge upon the Central Government to

extend financial grant to those dyers. Tiruppur contributes tremendously

to the country's exports and foreign exchange earnings. It cannot be

neglected like this. I would like to ask the Central Government whether

they are thinking of extending financial grant and whether they are

thinking of taking up this issue with the Planning Commission to seek

approval.

(Followed by 1c/hk)

HK-ASC/11.10/1c

SHRI NAMO NARAIN MEENA: Sir, the proposal from Tirupur is pending

in my Ministry and a decision will be taken ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI D. RAJA: How long? I have written to the Prime Minister. Many

representations have been made to the State Governments and the

Central Government. How long can this continue like this? I want an

answer from the Minister and from the Government. Prime Minister is

sitting here. ..(Interruptions)..


10

Q.No. 241 (Contd.)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Please, Mr. Raja, resume your place. ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI NAMO NARAIN MEENA: Sir, so far as this question is concerned,

this is related to something else which is not connected to this question.

But I can assure the hon. Member that a decision will be taken at the

earliest.

(Ends)


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13

¯ÖÏ¿®Ö ÃÖÓÜµÖÖ : 242

ÁÖß ÃÖŸµÖ¾ÖÎŸÖ “ÖŸÖã¾Öì¤üß : ´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, †ÓŸÖ¸üÖÔÂ™ÒüßµÖ †ÖŸÖÓÛú¾ÖÖ¤ü Ûêú ‡ÃÖ ¾ÖŸÖÔ´ÖÖ®Ö

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´ÖÖ®Ö¾Ö ŸÖÃÛú¸üß Ûú¸ü®Öê ¾ÖÖ»Öß Ûãú”û ÃÖÓÃ£ÖÖ‹Ó ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖ Ûêú †Ó¤ü¸ü ÃÖÓ“ÖÖ×»ÖŸÖ Æïü, ×•Ö®ÖÛêú ×¾Ö¤êü¿ÖÖë ´Öë

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†³Öß ŸÖÛú ŒµÖÖ ÛúÖµÖÔ¾ÖÖÆüß Ûúß Æîü? ŒµÖÖë×Ûú »ÖÖêÝÖÖë ÛúÖê ×ÃÖ±Ôú ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖ ÃÖê ²ÖÖÆü¸ü Æüß ŸÖÃÛú¸üß Ûú¸üÛêú

®ÖÆüà ³Öê•ÖÖ •ÖÖŸÖÖ Æîü, ²Ö×»Ûú ‡ÃÖß ¸üÖÃŸÖê ÃÖê ×¾Ö¤ü¿ÖÖë ÃÖê ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖ Ûêú †Ó¤ü¸ü ³Öß ŸÖÃÛú¸üß ÆüÖê®Öê Ûúß ¯Öæ¸üß

ÃÖÓ³ÖÖ¾Ö®ÖÖ ´ÖÖî•Öæ¤ü Æîü †Öî¸ü ˆÃÖ ŸÖÃÛú¸üß Ûêú ¸üÖÃŸÖê ÃÖê †ÖŸÖÓÛú¾ÖÖ¤üß ³Öß ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖ Ûêú †Ó¤ü¸ü †Ö ÃÖÛúŸÖê

Æïü… ‡ÃÖ ²ÖÖŸÖ ÛúÖê ®Ö•Ö¸ü ´Öë ¸üÜÖŸÖê Æãü‹, †³Öß ŸÖÛú ‡®Ö ‹•Öë×ÃÖµÖÖë Ûúß ŒµÖÖ •ÖÖÓ“Ö Ûúß ÝÖ‡Ô Æîü †Öî¸ü

ˆ®Ö´Öë ÃÖê ×Ûú®Ö-×Ûú®Ö Ûêú ×¾Öºþ¨ü ŒµÖÖ ÛúÖµÖÔ¾ÖÖÆüß Ûúß ÝÖ‡Ô Æîü, Ûéú¯ÖµÖÖ ²ÖŸÖÖ®Öê ÛúÖ ÛúÂ™ü Ûú¸ëü?

(1D/LP ¯Ö¸ü •ÖÖ¸üß)

KSK/LT/11.15/1D

SHRI PRANAB MUKHERJEE: Sir, so far as illegal immigration is

concerned, the Government of India is straight and we have laws to

enforce it. Those, who are engaged in this, ought to get themselves

registered through the Ministry of Labour. The Ministry of Labour and

Employment looks into this matter. In addition to that, the Ministry of

the Overseas Indian Affairs, which is a newly-created Ministry, is also

involved in creating the awareness building campaign. Here, the issue is


14

Q.No. 242 (contd)

to be looked into its proper perspective. There is a demand in some of

the Western countries for Indian workers. Large number of persons,

and most of them are unscrupulous, elude the Indian workers that if

they go abroad, they will get good job and earn good money. Being

tempted, quite a few of them fall into this trap and they resort to illegal

migration, and after that, they are subjected to harassment,

exploitations, and all sorts of things take place. Therefore, this is a

matter which is constantly being taken up. So far as our policies are

concerned, whenever the nationality of the country is identified, then, we

bring them back and our Missions everywhere facilitate the repatriation.

But, before that, we shall have to ensure that he is an Indian citizen.

Sometimes, it becomes little difficult because in order to stay in the

foreign countries, on arrival, they dispatch the passports. They refuse to

give their identity. Sometimes, they do not even resort to counsellor

services which are available and these things also take place.

Sometimes, they take advantage of the liberal immigration laws of

European countries. In the instant case, as I have mentioned in the

statement, 164 persons were arrested. Original information, which our

Mission got, was that around 200 persons had been arrested; all of them

were Indians. Later on, it was discovered that one was Indian. He had

a valid passport, but a forged visa. So, immediately, he was taken care

of and he has been repatriated. But, 163 persons were not Indians.

Even they were not kept in custody. I have the break-up that as per

Belgium laws, 129 persons were asked to quit. But, Belgium system is

that they do not follow it up, whether they are actually leaving or not.


15

Q.No. 242 (contd)

So, some of them stay back. They do not leave and they try to go to

some other country from Belgium.

ÁÖß ÃÖŸµÖ¾ÖÎŸÖ “ÖŸÖã¾Öì¤üß : ÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ •Öß, õÖ´ÖÖ Ûúß×•Ö‹, ´Öï®Öê ¯ÖÏ¿®Ö Ûãú”û †Öî¸ü ×ÛúµÖÖ £ÖÖ †Öî¸ü •Ö¾ÖÖ²Ö

¤æüÃÖ¸üÖ †Ö ¸üÆüÖ Æîü..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..

ÁÖß ÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ : ‹Ûú ×´Ö®Ö™ü, ÜÖŸ´Ö Ûú¸ü®Öê ¤üß×•Ö‹…

SHRI PRANAB MUKHERJEE: I am coming to that. But, please

understand the problem. Don't link it up with the infiltration and don't

link it up with the terrorist infiltration. These two are totally different

issues. These people mainly go for seeking the job. Maybe taking

advantage of this, some infiltrators may come to India. But, India is not

sending any infiltrators to any other country. Let that point be quite

clear. We are not sending any infiltrators. They are civilians; largely,

they are job-seekers. But, they are exploited. Therefore, those 129

persons were asked to quit. Only 75 were new. Balance of them were

given the order to leave the country earlier, but they did not leave. So,

the Belgium laws said that they had been arrested earlier, therefore,

there was no need to arrest them for the second time; let them go.

Two of them were with valid documents. So, they were immediately let

off. Sixteen were children. They were sent to the Special Court of

Care. But, from there, they themselves voluntarily left and 16 are still

under Belgium custody. But, it should not be mixed up with the

terrorists who are infiltrating into India. Firstly, we are not sending. I

have no information that any terrorists are infiltrating into any other

country. If any country reports to that extent, surely, we will take

stringent action.


16

Q.No. 242 (contd)

ÁÖß ÃÖŸµÖ¾ÖÎŸÖ “ÖŸÖã¾Öì¤üß : ÃÖ¸ü, ÃÖ¯»Öß´Öë™Òüß ®ÖÆüà, ´Öê¸üÖ •ÖÖê ¯ÖÆü»ÖÖ ÃÖ¯»Öß´Öë™Òß Æîü, ˆÃÖ ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ¬Ö ´Öë ´Öï

†Ö¯ÖÃÖê ×¾Ö¿ÖêÂÖ ÃÖÓ¸üõÖÞÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÓü… ´Öï®Öê µÖÆü ¯ÖÏ¿®Ö ×ÛúµÖÖ £ÖÖ ×Ûú Æü´ÖÖ¸êü ¤êü¿Ö Ûêú †Ó¤ü¸ü ‹êÃÖß

‹Ó•Öê×ÃÖµÖÖÓ, •ÖÖê ´ÖÖ®Ö¾Ö ŸÖÃÛú¸üß ÛúÖ ÛúÖ´Ö ÃÖÓ“ÖÖ×»ÖŸÖ Ûú¸üŸÖß Æïü, ˆ®ÖÛêú ×¾Ö¹ý¨ü •ÖÖÓ“Ö Ûú¸üÛêú ŒµÖÖ

Æü´Ö®Öê ÛúÖê‡Ô ÛúÖ¸Ôü¾ÖÖ‡Ô Ûúß Æîü? µÖ×¤ü ÆüÖÓ, ŸÖÖê ˆÃÖ ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ¬Ö ´Öë ´Öï®Öê •ÖÖ®ÖÛúÖ¸üß “ÖÖÆüß £ÖÖ †Öî¸ü ¤æüÃÖ¸üß

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†ÖŸÖÓÛú¾ÖÖ¤üß ÛúÆüà •ÖÖ ¸üÆêü Æïü… ´Öï®Öê Ûêú¾Ö»Ö µÖÆü ÛúÆüÖ £ÖÖ ×Ûú ×¾Ö¤êü¿ÖÖë ´Öë ‡®Ö ‹•Öë×ÃÖµÖÖë Ûêú •ÖÖê

ÃÖÓ¯ÖÛÔú ÃÖæ¡Ö Æïü, ˆ®ÖÛêú ´ÖÖ¬µÖ´Ö ÃÖê †ÖŸÖÓÛú¾ÖÖ¤üß ˆÃÖ ¸üÖÃŸÖê ÃÖê ³Öß ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖ ´Öë †Ö ÃÖÛúŸÖê Æïü…

(akg/1f ¯Ö¸ü •ÖÖ¸üß)

AKG-GSP/1E/11.20

ÁÖß ÃÖŸµÖ¾ÖÎŸÖ “ÖŸÖã¾Öì¤üß (ÛÎú´ÖÖÝÖŸÖ) : ‡ÃÖ ÃÖ´³ÖÖ¾Ö®ÖÖ ÛúÖê ¤êüÜÖŸÖê Æãü‹ µÖÆü ´ÖÃÖ»ÖÖ •µÖÖ¤üÖ ÝÖ´³Öß¸ü ÆüÖê

ÝÖµÖÖ Æîü… ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ ´Öï †Ö¯ÖÃÖê ×±ú¸ü ÃÖê ¯Öæ”û ¸üÆüÖ ÆæÑü ×Ûú Ûéú¯ÖÖ Ûú¸üÛêú µÖÆü ²ÖŸÖÖ‹Ñ ×Ûú ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖ ´Öë

´ÖÖ®Ö¾Ö ŸÖÃÛú¸üß ´Öë •ÖÖê ‹•Öë×ÃÖµÖÖÑ ÃÖÓ»ÖÝ®Ö Æï, ˆ®ÖÛêú ×¾Ö¹ý¨ü Æü´Ö®Öê †¯Ö®Öê ÛúÖ®Öæ®Ö Ûêú ŸÖÆüŸÖ ŒµÖÖ

ÛúÖ¸Ôü¾ÖÖ‡Ô Ûúß Æîü? †Ö¯Ö ˆÃÖÛúÖ ŸÖÖê •Ö¾ÖÖ²Ö ¤êü ¤ëü, ¯ÖÆü»Öß ÃÖ¯»Öß´Öë™ü¸üß ÛúÖ Æüß •Ö¾ÖÖ²Ö ®ÖÆüà †ÖµÖÖ!

SHRI PRANAB MUKHERJEE: Sir, I would like to request the hon.

Member to address this question to the Ministry of Labour dealing with

the manpower empowerment etc. This is their issue which I have stated

in reply to his question.

ÁÖß ÃÖŸµÖ¾ÖÎŸÖ “ÖŸÖã¾Öì¤üß : ÁÖß´ÖÖ®ÖË, ´Öê¸üÖ ¤æüÃÖ¸üÖ ¯Öæ¸üÛú ¯ÖÏ¿®Ö µÖÆü Æîü, •ÖîÃÖÖ ´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß ®Öê †¯Ö®Öê

ˆ¢Ö¸ü ´Öë ÛúÆüÖ ×Ûú •Ö²Ö ³Öß ‹êÃÖê ¯ÖÏÛú¸üÞÖ ˆ®ÖÛúß •ÖÖ®ÖÛúÖ¸üß ´Öë µÖÖ ÃÖ¸üÛúÖ¸ü Ûúß •ÖÖ®ÖÛúÖ¸üß ´Öë †ÖŸÖê

Æïü, ŸÖÖê ¾Öê ×¾Ö¤êü¿Ö ´Öë •ÖÖê Æü´ÖÖ¸êü ¤æüŸÖÖ¾ÖÖÃÖ Æïü, ˆ®ÖÛêú ´ÖÖ¬µÖ´Ö ÃÖê ‡®Ö »ÖÖêÝÖÖë ÛúÖ ¯Öã®Ö¾ÖÖÔÃÖ Ûú¸ü®Öê Ûêú

×»Ö‹ ¯Öã®Ö: †¯Ö®Öê µÖÆüÖÑ ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖ ´Öë ²Öã»ÖÖŸÖê Æïü †Öî¸ü ˆ®ÖÛúÖ ¯Öã®Ö¾ÖÖÔÃÖ Ûú¸üŸÖê Æïü, ´Öï †Ö¯ÖÛêú ´ÖÖ¬µÖ´Ö ÃÖê

´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß ÃÖê µÖÆü •ÖÖ®Ö®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÑü ×Ûú ¯Öã®Ö¾ÖÖÔÃÖ ÃÖê †Ö¯ÖÛúÖ ŒµÖÖ ŸÖÖŸ¯ÖµÖÔ Æîü, ŒµÖÖë×Ûú µÖê

»ÖÖêÝÖ ¾ÖÆüÖÑ ¸üÖê•ÖÝÖÖ¸ü Ûúß ŸÖ»ÖÖ¿Ö ´Öë •ÖÖŸÖê Æïü? ŒµÖÖ ˆ®Æëü µÖÆüÖÑ ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖ ´Öë »ÖÖÛú¸ü ¸üÖê•ÖÝÖÖ¸ü ¤êü®Öê Ûúß

ÛúÖê‡Ô ¾µÖ¾ÖÃ£ÖÖ Ûúß •ÖÖŸÖß Æîü? ¤æüÃÖ¸üÖ µÖÆü ×Ûú ŒµÖÖ †Ö¯Ö µÖÆü ²ÖŸÖÖ ÃÖÛëúÝÖê ×Ûú ×¯Ö”û»Öê ¤üÖê ¾ÖÂÖÖí Ûêú


17

Q.No. 242 (contd)

†®¤ü¸ü ×Ûú®Ö-×Ûú®Ö ¤êü¿ÖÖë ÃÖê ×ÛúŸÖ®Öê ‹êÃÖê ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖßµÖ ²Ö“ÖÖ‹ ÝÖ‹ Æïü †Öî¸ü ˆ®Æëü µÖÆüÖÑ »ÖÖÛú¸ü ˆ®ÖÛúÖ

¯Öã®Ö¾ÖÖÔÃÖ ×ÛúµÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ Æîü, ×Ûú®Ö-×Ûú®Ö ¤êü¿ÖÖë ÃÖê ×ÛúŸÖ®Öê ‹êÃÖê ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖßµÖÖë ÛúÖ ¯ÖÏÛú¸üÞÖ ÃÖÖ´Ö®Öê †ÖµÖÖ Æîü?

SHRI PRANAB MUKHERJEE: Sir, when they come, they take the

advantage of various developmental programmes which are available for

them. Here, the 'rehabilitation' means to bring them back to take

advantage of getting job here including NRIs.

Secondly, we have different mechanism in this regard with various

countries, and, we are trying to have Memorandum of Understanding

with most of the countries. The issue is of illegal migration from India to

other countries; the issue is not of somebody coming from outside to

India. There is no definitive figure available in this regard. As I

mentioned in the course of my reply, whenever an illegal migrant reaches

a country, the first thing he does is that he destroys his identity,

destroys his passport. The facilities that we provide -- if he destroys his

passport -- are on verification of nationality because we are to verify as

to whether he is an Indian, he is not a Bangladeshi, he is not a

Pakistani, because, ethnically, more or less, we are the same.

Therefore, the citizenship has to be identified, and, this identification

process takes some time. Once it is identified, then, immediately, we

issue a certificate that though he does not have a valid passport, on the

basis of that certificate, he is helped to get repatriation to his country,

and, then, he goes and takes advantage of the available scheme for

rehabilitation.

ÁÖß ´ÖÖêŸÖß »ÖÖ»Ö ¾ÖÖê¸üÖ : ´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß ®Öê †¯Ö®Öê •Ö¾ÖÖ²Ö ´Öë ‡ÃÖ ²ÖÖŸÖ

Ûúß •ÖÖ®ÖÛúÖ¸üß ¤üß Æîü ×Ûú ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖßµÖ ¤æüŸÖÖ¾ÖÖÃÖ ®Öê ²Öê×»•ÖµÖ´Ö Ûêú ¯Ö¤üÖ×¬ÖÛúÖ×¸üµÖÖë ÃÖê ÃÖ´¯ÖÛÔú Ûú¸ü®Öê Ûúß


18

Q.No. 242 (contd)

ÛúÖê×¿Ö¿Ö Ûúß †Öî¸ü ˆ®ÆüÖë®Öê •ÖÖ®ÖÛúÖ¸üß ¤êü®Öê ÃÖê ‡®ÖÛúÖ¸ü ŸÖÖê ®ÖÆüà ×ÛúµÖÖ, »Öê×Ûú®Ö •ÖÖ®ÖÛúÖ¸üß ®ÖÆüà ¤üß…

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(1‹±ú/‹ÃÖÃÖß‹“Ö ¯Ö¸ü •ÖÖ¸üß)

-GSP/YSR-SCH/11.25/1F

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ÝÖµÖÖ…

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SHRI PRANAB MUKHERJEE: Sir, so far as this particular case is

concerned, it is a fact that a number of persons were available from the

gurdwara itself. It is not confirmed by the Mayor's office, but we got the

information from other sources that the event took place on 18th

October. The Mayor visited that particular gurdwara on 1st November

and thereafter he said that the condition was not hygienic and

conditions would improve. Thereafter, he stated that the number of

persons who could stay overnight at gurdwara should be limited. The


19

Q.No. 242 (contd)

gurdwara authorities with whom we, our mission, contacted, they said

that they were complying with that instruction.

In the course of investigation, the public prosecutor stated that in

one particular room of 20 square metres, 28 persons were staying. I

have shared that information in the main text. He also certified that the

condition was not hygienic. This problem is there and that is the issue

on which Belgian papers agitated.

Here, Sir, there is really a nexus. It is not merely those who are

indulging in human trafficking from India but also those who are

absorbing some of them there, because they want to have cheap labour.

Compared to local workers, they want to have these workers who work

hard, provide greater yield, and demand less wages. So, it is helpful to

them in the agricultural work and in all sorts of other work. There is a

nexus. Every country is trying to curb that. For instance, we have

entered into a Memorandum of Understanding with the U.K., and it is

working very well. We have got the figures till July. Till July, 1,395

cases were reported relating to illegal immigrants. We immediately took

steps, and 844 were identified to be Indians and we brought them back.

And 395 cases are still pending along with 156 cases where no

nationality has been established. This type of action we are also taking

through the Memorandum of Understanding. We want to enter into this

kind of Memorandum of Understanding with most of the European

Countries.

SHRI B.J. PANDA: Sir, in the last couple of years, there had been

certain high profile cases of human trafficking caught at the airport


20

Q.No. 242 (contd)

where passports had been issued to somebody and were being used by

somebody else. These have been reported in the media. They have

involved sports teams. Unfortunately, they have involved even a Member

of Parliament. My question to the hon. Minister is this. What steps is

his Ministry taking to ensure that this kind of misuse of identity

documents does not happen? For example, to ensure that the passport

belongs to the person using it by way of using fingerprints for biometric

identification. Is any such step being contemplated by the Ministry?

SHRI PRANAB MUKHERJEE: Sir, we have decided to introduce

biometric passport system. Sir, as I mentioned on earlier occasions, we

are expecting to complete the entire process by 2010.

ÃÖ¸ü¤üÖ¸ü ŸÖ¸ü»ÖÖê“Ö®Ö ØÃÖÆü: £ÖïŒµÖæ, “ÖêµÖ¸ü´Öî®Ö ÃÖÖÆü²Ö… ÃÖ¸ü, µÖÆü ‡ŸÖ®ÖÖ ×ÃÖ´¯Ö»Ö ‡¿µÖæ ®ÖÆüà Æîü,

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psv/1g ¯Ö¸ü •ÖÖ¸üß

PSV-VKK/1G/11.30

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flourishing trade ×•ÖÃÖ´Öë travel agents †Öî¸ü immigration staff jointly connive

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21

Q.No. 242 (contd)

ÛÓú™Òüß•ÖÌ Ûúß •Öê»ÖÖë ´Öë ¯Ö›Íêü Æïü… µÖÆü ŸÖÖê ×ÃÖ±Ôú ²Öê×»•ÖµÖ´Ö ÛúÖ ²ÖŸÖÖµÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ Æîü, »Öê×Ûú®Ö †³Öß ×¯Ö”û»Öê

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×ÝÖ¸ü°ŸÖÖ¸ü Ûú¸ü ×»Ö‹ ÝÖ‹ £Öê ×Ûú ˆ®ÖÛêú ¯ÖÖÃÖ documents ®ÖÆüà Æïü? ×´Ö¿Ö®Ö ®Öê ‹êÃÖê ×ÛúŸÖ®Öê »ÖÖêÝÖÖë

Ûúß Æîü»¯Ö Ûúß Æîü? •Ö²Ö µÖæ¸üÖê¯Ö Ûêú ÛÓú™Òüß•ÖÌ •ÖÖò²Ö ×¤ü»ÖÖ®Öê Ûêú ×»Ö‹ †¯Ö®Öê ®ÖÖò´ÃÖÔ ‡Ô•ÖÌ Ûú¸üŸÖê Æïü, ŸÖÖê

ŒµÖÖ Æü´ÖÖ¸êü ×´Ö¿Ö®Ö ˆ®Ö illegal Indians Ûúß ÛúÖê‡Ô Æîü»¯Ö Ûú¸üŸÖê Æïü? †ÝÖ¸ü ¾Öê Æîü»¯Ö Ûú¸üŸÖê Æïü ŸÖÖê

•Ö²Ö †³Öß Ã¯Öê®Ö ®Öê ÜÖÖê»ÖÖ £ÖÖ ŸÖÖê ¯ÖÖ×ÛúÃŸÖÖ®Ö Ûêú Ûãú»Ö 5 Æü•ÖÖ¸ü »ÖÖêÝÖ ¯ÖŒÛêú ÆüÖê ÝÖ‹ •Ö²Ö×Ûú

‡Ó×›üµÖÖ Ûêú 10 Æüß Æãü‹, ŸÖÖê Æü´ÖÖ¸êü ×´Ö¿Ö®Ö ¾ÖÆüÖÑ ŒµÖÖ Ûú¸üŸÖê Æïü? ŒµÖÖ ‹êÃÖê »ÖÖêÝÖÖë Ûúß ´Ö¤ü¤ü Ûêú ×»Ö‹

³ÖÖ¸üŸÖ ÃÖ¸üÛúÖ¸ü Ûêú ¯ÖÖÃÖ ÛúÖê‡Ô ÃÛúß´Ö Æîü †Öî¸ü ‹êÃÖê ™Òîü¾Ö»Ö ‹•Öë™ËüÃÖ Ûêú ×ÜÖ»ÖÖ±Ìú †Ö¯Ö®Öê †Ö•Ö ŸÖÛú

ŒµÖÖ ‹Œ¿Ö®Ö ×»ÖµÖÖ Æîü?

SHRI PRANAB MUKHERJEE: Sir, the scope of the question should not

be expanded. The question was addressed for a particular arrest in

Belgium. That's why, I have given this reply and it is not the whole issue

of illegal migration. (Interruptions)

SARDAR TALOCHAN SINGH: Sir, this is a related issue, not one of

Belgium alone.

SHRI PRANAB MUKHERJEE: Please, let me complete. Therefore, you

will have to understand. The Parliamentary practice is, I reply to the

question which is asked. You can ask about the whole policy to deal

with illegal immigration or migration. You can discuss that. There is no

problem. I mentioned that it is difficult. Those who want to seek asylum

in other countries -- not asylum but take shelter for job to earn more

money -- they destroy their own identity voluntarily. Therefore, it is not

very easy. So far as the assessment is concerned, according to the

information which I have, roughly about 100 thousand illegal migrants are


22

Q.No. 242 (contd)

there in different countries. I am talking mainly about European countries

because once they enter into one European country, it becomes easier

for them to move in all the 27 European countries. Roughly, the number

is 100 thousand. In Germany, it is about ten thousand. In Spain, it is five

thousand. I can give the whole list but, it will take time. I can lay it on

the Table of the House. We also discovered another route. Yes, it is true

that sometimes these types of mishaps take place. Very recently, we

had to deal with a ship consisting of illegal migrants. They were trying to

go to Spain because Spanian laws are more liberal. So, Spain becomes

a transfer point. From Spain, they want to go to other countries. Now, it

has become a practice to go to African coast and from there, to go to

Spain and from Spain, they can go anywhere. These people have found

out various mechanisms. In collaboration with the two Ministries, which I

have referred, we are trying to tackle this problem.

ÁÖß ÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ: ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü…

ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü: ´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ´Öï †Ö¯ÖÛêú ´ÖÖ¬µÖ´Ö ÃÖê ×¾Ö«üÖ®Ö ×¾Ö¤êü¿Ö ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß ÃÖê ‹Ûú

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•ÖîÃÖÖ ¾ÖÖê¸üÖ •Öß ®Öê ÛúÆüÖ ×Ûú •ÖÖê †ÓŸÖ¸üÖÔÂ™ÒüßµÖ ×ÝÖ¸üÖêÆü ÛúÖµÖ´Ö Æîü, ×•ÖÃÖ´Öë 15 »ÖÖêÝÖ Æïü †Öî¸ü

ÃÖÖœÍêü 15 Æü•ÖÖ¸ü ¯ÖÖˆÓ›ü ŸÖÛú Ûúß Ûúß´ÖŸÖ ¾ÖÃÖæ»Öß •ÖÖŸÖß Æîü, †ÝÖ¸ü ‡ÃÖÛêú ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë ²Öê×»•ÖµÖ´Ö Ûêú

†×¬ÖÛúÖ¸üß •ÖÖ®ÖÛúÖ¸üß ®ÖÆüà ¤êü ¸üÆêü Æïü ŸÖÖê ÃÖ´³Ö¾ÖŸÖ: ¾ÖÆü ¯ÖÏÖ¯ŸÖ ®ÖÆüà Æãü‡Ô ÆüÖêÝÖß, »Öê×Ûú®Ö ´Öï ‹Ûú

ÃÖß×´ÖŸÖ ¯ÖÏ¿®Ö Ûú¸ü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÑü ×Ûú ŒµÖÖ ×¾Ö¤êü¿Ö ´ÖÓ¡ÖÖ»ÖµÖ †Öî¸ü ÁÖ´Ö ´ÖÓ¡ÖÖ»ÖµÖ ÛúÖ ÛúÖê‡Ô

coordination mechanism Æîü, ×•ÖÃÖÃÖê registered recruiting agents Ûêú ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë--

×¾Ö¿ÖêÂÖ ºþ¯Ö ÃÖê µÖÆü ÃÖÓÃÖ¤ü Ûúß ÝÖ×¸ü´ÖÖ ÛúÖ ³Öß ¯ÖÏ¿®Ö Æîü ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ Æü´ÖÖ¸êü ÃÖÖ£Öß ‡ÃÖê †®µÖ£ÖÖ ®ÖÆüà

»ÖëÝÖê… ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖßµÖ •Ö®ÖŸÖÖ ¯ÖÖ™üá †Öî¸ü ²ÖÆãü•Ö®Ö ÃÖ´ÖÖ•Ö ¯ÖÖ™üá Ûêú ÃÖÖÓÃÖ¤ü Ûú²ÖæŸÖ¸ü²ÖÖ•Öß, human

trafficking Ûêú ´ÖÖ´Ö»Öê ´Öë ÃÖ×´´Ö×»ÖŸÖ ¯ÖÖ‹ ÝÖ‹ Æïü… ‡ÃÖ´Öë TRS Ûêú ÃÖÖ£Öß ³Öß ÃÖ×´´Ö×»ÖŸÖ ¯ÖÖ‹ ÝÖ‹


23

Q.No. 242 (contd)

Æïü… ŒµÖÖ ˆ®Ö »ÖÖêÝÖÖë Ûêú ÃÖÖ£Ö ÛúÖê‡Ô •ÖÖÑ“Ö Æãü‡Ô? ˆÃÖ ÃÖ´ÖµÖ ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖßµÖ •Ö®ÖŸÖÖ ¯ÖÖ™üá Ûêú †Öî¸ü ²ÖÆãü•Ö®Ö

ÃÖ´ÖÖ•Ö ¯ÖÖ™üá Ûêú •ÖÖê ÃÖÖÓÃÖ¤ü ‡ÃÖ Ûú²ÖæŸÖ¸ü²ÖÖ•Öß ´Öë ¯ÖÛú›Íêü ÝÖ‹, ×•ÖÃÖÃÖê ˆ®ÆüÖë®Öê ÃÖÓÃÖ¤ü Ûúß ÝÖ×¸ü´ÖÖ

ÛúÖê ‘Ö™üÖµÖÖ, ×•Ö®ÆüÖë®Öê human trafficking ´Öë ¬µÖÖ®Ö ×¤üµÖÖ ...(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)... µÖÆü ¤êü¿Ö Ûúß ²ÖÖŸÖ Æîü

...(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)...

ÁÖß ÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ: †Ö¯Ö ÃÖ¾ÖÖ»Ö ¯Öæ”û »Öë…

(1‹“Ö/‹“Ö0‹´Ö0‹ÃÖ0 ¯Ö¸ü †ÖÝÖê)

MKS-HMS/11.35/1H ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü: ÃÖ¸ü, ÃÖ¾ÖÖ»Ö Æüß ¯Öæ”û ¸üÆüÖ ÆæÓüü… ‡®Ö »ÖÖêÝÖÖë Ûêú ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë •ÖÖê ¯Öæ”ûŸÖÖ”û Æãü‡Ô, •ÖÖ®ÖÛúÖ¸üß

Æãü‡Ô, ŸÖÖê ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖßµÖ •Ö®ÖŸÖÖ ¯ÖÖ™üá †Öî¸ü ²ÖÆãü•Ö®Ö ÃÖ´ÖÖ•Ö ¯ÖÖ™üá Ûêú •ÖÖê ÃÖ¤üÃµÖ ‡ÃÖ ´ÖÖ´Ö»Öê ´Öë ¯ÖÛú›Íêü

ÝÖ‹, ˆ®ÖÛúß •ÖÖÓ“Ö Ûêú ŒµÖÖ ®ÖŸÖß•Öê Æïü?

SHRI PRANAB MUKHERJEE: Sir, so far as the last part of the question

is concerned, the hon. Member is aware of it that those who are

involved in are Members of Lok Sabha. The hon. Speaker appointed a

Committee. On the basis of the findings of that Committee, as Leader

of that House, I had to move a Resolution for the expulsion of that

Member concerned from that House. In a couple of other cases, still

the Committee is looking into it. This is very unfortunate. It should not

have happened. But, unfortunately, it has happened. And, thereafter, of

course, the law of the land will take place. But so far as the Parliament

is concerned, this measure has already been taken.

As regards the second question, yes, there is a coordination

mechanism, and we are trying to impress upon them that you must

strictly enforce it. Very recently, a large number of Indians have gone to

the Gulf countries. And with the cooperation of the State Governments,

from where these persons are coming, and with the cooperation of the


24

Q.No. 242 (contd)

country concerned, we have ensured that they are released. Their law

is a bit stringent. They were in jail. We took the initiative, and they

have been released one time. Benefit has been given to them; they

have been released; they have been allowed to come back. Measures

of this type are constantly being taken, but the problem is really serious.

(Ends)


25


26


27


28


29


30

¯ÖÏ¿®Ö ÃÖÓÜµÖÖ 243

ÁÖß ´ÖÆêü®¦ü ´ÖÖêÆü®Ö : ÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ •Öß, ´ÖÓ¡Öß ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ ®Öê •ÖÖê ˆ¢Ö¸ü ×¤üµÖÖ Æîü, ˆÃÖÃÖê ÃÖÖ¸üß •ÖÖ®ÖÛúÖ×¸üµÖÖÓ

¯ÖÏÖ¯ŸÖ ®ÖÆüà ÆüÖê ¸üÆüß Æïü… •ÖîÃÖÖ ×Ûú †Ö¯ÖÛúÖê ´ÖÖ»Öæ´Ö Æîü ‡ÃÖ ¾ÖŒŸÖ ¯ÖµÖÖÔ¾Ö¸üÞÖ Ûúß ÆüÖ»ÖŸÖ ²ÖÆãüŸÖ ÜÖ¸üÖ²Ö

Æîü †Öî¸ü ®Ö×¤üµÖÖë ´Öë ¯ÖÏ¤æüÂÖÞÖ †ŸµÖ×¬ÖÛú Æîü… ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ‡ŸÖ®Öê ¾ÖÂÖÖí Ûêú ¯ÖÏµÖÖÃÖ Ûêú ²ÖÖ¾Ö•Öæ¤ü ¯»ÖÖØ®ÖÝÖ

Ûú´Öß¿Ö®Ö Ûúß •ÖÖê »Öê™êüÃ™ü ×¸ü¯ÖÖê™Ôü waste water management Ûêú ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë †Ö‡Ô £Öß, ˆÃÖ´Öë

×»ÖÜÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ £ÖÖ ×Ûú only 30 per cent of waste water released in Indian rivers

and lakes is being treated. †Öî¸ü †³Öß ³Öß 70 ¯Ö¸üÃÖë™ü †®Ö-™Òüß™êü›ü ¾ÖêÃ™ü ˆ®Ö´Öë •ÖÖ ¸üÆüÖ

Æîü ×•ÖÃÖÛêú ÛúÖ¸üÞÖ •ÖÆüÖÓ ¾ÖÂÖÔ 1999 ´Öë ²ÖîŒ™üß×¸üµÖ»Ö ¯ÖÖò»µÖæ¿Ö®Ö 48 ¯Ö¸üÃÖë™ü Æãü†Ö Ûú¸üŸÖÖ £ÖÖ, ‡ÃÖ

ÃÖ´ÖµÖ ¯Ö¸ü 53 ¯Ö¸üÃÖë™ü ÆüÖê ÝÖµÖÖ Æîü… ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ ´Öï ´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß ÃÖê •ÖÖ®Ö®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆæÓüÝÖÖ ×Ûú •ÖÆüÖÓ

¤êü¿Ö Ûúß ŸÖ´ÖÖ´Ö ®Ö×¤üµÖÖë ´Öë ¯ÖÏ¤æüÂÖÞÖ Ûúß ´ÖÖ¡ÖÖ ²ÖœÍü ¸üÆüß Æîü, ×¾Ö¿ÖêÂÖ ºþ¯Ö ÃÖê ÝÖÓÝÖÖ ®Ö¤üß ×•ÖÃÖê ¸üÖÂ™ÒüßµÖ

®Ö¤üß ÛúÖ ¤ü•ÖÖÔ ³Öß ´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ¯ÖÏ¬ÖÖ®Ö ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß «üÖ¸üÖ ×¤üµÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ Æîü, ˆÃÖ´Öë ³Öß ¯ÖÏ¤æüÂÖÞÖ ´Öë ÛúÖê‡Ô Ûú´Öß

®ÖÆüà †Ö ¸üÆüß Æîü… ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, †Ö•Ö ¾ÖÖ¸üÖÞÖÃÖß †Öî¸ü ÛúÖ®Ö¯Öã¸ü ´Öë ‡ŸÖ®ÖÖ •µÖÖ¤üÖ ¯ÖÏ¤æüÂÖÞÖ Æîü ×Ûú ¾ÖÆüÖÓ

ÛúÖ ¯ÖÖ®Öß ®ÖÆüÖ®Öê Ûêú µÖÖêÝµÖ ³Öß ®ÖÆüà ¸üÆüÖ Æîü…

ÁÖß ÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ : †Ö¯Ö ÃÖ¾ÖÖ»Ö ¯Öæ×”û‹…

ÁÖß ´ÖÆêü®¦ü ´ÖÖêÆü®Ö : ´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ •Öß, •Ö²Ö ŸÖÛú •ÖÖ®ÖÛúÖ¸üß ®ÖÆüà ¤æÓüÝÖÖ ¾ÖÆü ˆ¢Ö¸ü ®ÖÆüà ¤êü

¯ÖÖ‹ÓÝÖê… ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ £ÖÖê›ÍüßÃÖß •ÖÖ®ÖÛúÖ¸üß ¤êü®ÖÖ †Ö¾Ö¿µÖÛú Æîü…

ÁÖß ÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ : ®ÖÆüà, ¤êü×ÜÖ‹, our time is very precious. Please put the

supplementaries.

ÁÖß ´ÖÆêü®¦ü ´ÖÖêÆü®Ö : ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ¾ÖîóÖÖ×®ÖÛúÖë Ûêú ´ÖãŸÖÖ×²ÖÛú ŸÖ£ÖÖ ¾Ö»›Ôü Æîü»£Ö †ÖòÝÖÔ®ÖÖ‡•Öê¿Ö®Ö Ûêú †¬µÖµÖ®Ö

ÃÖê ²ÖîŒ™üß×¸üµÖ»Ö ÛúÖˆÓ™ü ¾ÖÖ¸üÖÞÖÃÖß ´Öë 4 Æü•ÖÖ¸ü ÝÖãÞÖÖ ÃÖê 10 Æü•ÖÖ¸ü ÝÖãÞÖÖ ³Öß “Ö»Ö ¸üÆüÖ Æîüü… ‡ÃÖ

ÛúÖ¸üÞÖ †®ÖêÛú ²Öß´ÖÖ×¸üµÖÖÓ •ÖîÃÖê ÛúÖò»Ö¸üÖ, Æîü¯Öß™üÖ‡×™üÃÖ ±îú»Ö ¸üÆüß Æïü…

ÁÖß ÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ : ÃÖ¾ÖÖ»Ö ŒµÖÖ Æîü?

ÁÖß ´ÖÆêü®¦ü ´ÖÖêÆü®Ö : ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ´Öê¸üÖ ¯ÖÏ¿®Ö µÖÆü Æîü ×Ûú ‡®Ö ÃÖ´ÖÃµÖÖ†Öë ÃÖê ×®Ö¯Ö™ü®Öê Ûêú ×»Ö‹ - ¾ÖÆüÖÓ

¯ÖÖ®Öß ´Öë ²ÖîŒ™üß×¸üµÖÖ•Ö ÛîúÃÖê Ûú´Ö ÆüÖë, ÛîúÃÖê ‡®Ö ®Ö×¤üµÖÖë ÛúÖ ¯ÖÏ¤æüÂÖÞÖ Ûú´Ö ÆüÖê, ‡ÃÖ Ûêú ×»Ö‹ †Ö¯Ö

ŒµÖÖ Ûú¸ü ¸üÆêü Æïü? ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ×ÃÖ±Ôú ‘ÖÖê×ÂÖŸÖ Ûú¸ü ¤êü®Öê ÃÖê Ûãú”û ®ÖÆüà ÆüÖêÝÖÖ, †Ö¯Ö ŒµÖÖ Ûú¸ü ¸üÆêü Æïü

‡ÃÖ ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë •ÖÖ®ÖÛúÖ¸üß ¤ëü?


31

Q.No. 243 (contd)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Before the hon. Minister replies, I would like to

request the hon. Members that supplementaries are intended to follow

from the main question, and supplementaries are questions, not

statements. We take too much of our precious time in the preliminary

statement. Please go ahead, Sir. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRIMATI JAYA BACHCHAN: Sir, long answers also take a lot of time.

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, please tell the Minister also.

ÁÖß ®Ö´ÖÖê ®ÖÖ¸üÖµÖÞÖ ´ÖßÞÖÖ : ÃÖ¸ü, ´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ÃÖ¤üÃµÖ ®Öê ÃÖë™Òü»Ö ¯ÖÖò»µÖæ¿Ö®Ö ÛÓú™ÒüÖê»Ö ²ÖÖê›Ôü Ûúß ×¸ü¯ÖÖê™ËüÃÖÔ

ÛúÖ Æü¾ÖÖ»ÖÖ ¤êüŸÖê Æãü‹ ¯ÖÏ¿®Ö ¯Öæ”ûÖ Æîü… ÃÖë™Òü»Ö ¯ÖÖò»µÖæ¿Ö®Ö ÛÓú™ÒüÖê»Ö ²ÖÖê›Ôü ¯ÖÏ×ŸÖ ¾ÖÂÖÔ ¾ÖÖ™ü¸ü Œ¾ÖÖ×»Ö™üß ‡®Ö

‡Ó×›üµÖÖ ¯Ö¸ü ‹Ûú Ã™êü™ËüÃÖ ×¸ü¯ÖÖê™Ôü ×®ÖÛúÖ»ÖŸÖÖ Æî ×•ÖÃÖ Ûêú †Ö¬ÖÖ¸ü ¯Ö¸ü Æü´ÖÖ¸üß ¾ÖÖ™ü¸ü ²ÖÖò›üß•Ö ×•Ö®Ö ´Öë

®Ö×¤üµÖÖÓ, ôÖß»Ö †Öî¸ü ™ïüŒÃÖ †ÖŸÖê Æïü, ˆ®ÖÛúß ×Ã£Ö×ŸÖ ²ÖŸÖÖ‡Ô ÝÖ‡Ô Æîü… ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ‡®ÆüÖë®Öê specially

bacterial contamination Ûêú ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë ¯Öæ”ûÖ £ÖÖ ×•ÖÃÖÛúß ×Ã£Ö×ŸÖ Æü´Ö ®Öê ²ÖŸÖÖ ¤üß Æîü…

(1 •Öê/Ûêú‹»Ö•Öß ¯Ö¸ü ÛÎú´Ö¿Ö:)

1J/KLG-TMV/11.40

ÁÖß ®Ö´ÖÖê ®ÖÖ¸üÖµÖÞÖ ´ÖßÞÖÖ (ÛÎú´ÖÖÝÖŸÖ) : •ÖÆüÖÓ ŸÖÛú ‡ÃÖÛúÖê ¸üÖêÛú®Öê ÛúÖ ÃÖ¾ÖÖ»Ö Æîü, ‡ÃÖ´Öë Æü´ÖÖ¸üß

®Öê¿Ö®Ö»Ö ×¸ü¾Ö¸ü ÛÓú•Ö¸ü¾Öê¿Ö®Ö ÃÛúß´Ö “Ö»Ö ¸üÆüß Æîü… ¯ÖÆü»Öê •ÖÖê ÃÖë™Òü»Ö ¯ÖÖê»µÖã¿Ö®Ö ²ÖÖê›Ôü Ûúß •ÖÖê Ã™ü›üß•Ö

†ÖŸÖß Æïü, ˆÃÖÛêú †Ö¬ÖÖ¸ü ¯Ö¸ü Æü´ÖÖ¸üß ÃÖÖ¸üß µÖÖê•Ö®ÖÖ‹Ó ²Ö®ÖŸÖß Æïü… Ã™êü™ü ÝÖ¾Ö®ÖÔ´Öë™ËüÃÖ †¯Ö®Öê

›üß¯Öß†Ö¸ü‹ÃÖ ²Ö®ÖÖŸÖß Æïü, ˆ®ÖÛúÖê ÃÖë™Òü»Ö ÝÖ¾Ö®ÖÔ´Öë™ü ×•ÖŸÖ®Öß †×ÃÖÃ™ëüÃÖ ²Ö®ÖŸÖß Æîü, ¾ÖÆü ¤êüŸÖß Æî, ´ÖÝÖ¸ü

“ÖæÓ×Ûú µÖÆü Ã™êü™ü ÃÖ²•ÖêŒ™ü Æîü ¾ÖÖ™ü¸ü, This is a State subject. It is the responsibility

of the State Government. We are also supplementing from the

Government of India.

ÃÖ¸ü, ´Öï µÖÆü ³Öß ²ÖŸÖÖ®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆæÓüÝÖÖ ×Ûú ´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ÃÖ¤üÃµÖ ÃÖê ´Öï ÃÖÆü´ÖŸÖ ÆæÑü ×Ûú Æü´ÖÖ¸êü

¤êü¿Ö Ûúß ®Ö×¤üµÖÖë ´Öë •ÖÖê ¯ÖÖê»µÖã¿Ö®Ö »ÖÖê›ü Æîü ¾ÖÆü 33 Æü•ÖÖ¸ü ‹´Ö‹»Ö›üß Æîü, •Ö²Ö×Ûú Æü´Ö »ÖÖêÝÖÖë Ûêú

¯ÖÖÃÖ ´Öë ™Òüß™ü´Öë™ü Ûîú¯Öê×ÃÖ™üß Ûêú¾Ö»Ö 7 Æü•ÖÖ¸ ü‹´Ö‹»Ö›üß Ûúß Æîü…


32

Q.No. 243 (contd)

ÁÖß ´ÖÆêü®¦ü ´ÖÖêÆü®Ö : ´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ´Öï †Ö¯ÖÛêú ´ÖÖ¬µÖ´Ö ÃÖê •ÖÖ®Ö®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆæÓüÝÖÖ, •ÖîÃÖÖ

´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß ®Öê Ã¾ÖßÛúÖ¸ü ×ÛúµÖÖ Æîü ×Ûú Æü´ÖÖ¸êü µÖÆüÖÓ ‡¬Ö¸ü 33 Æü•ÖÖ¸ü ‹´Ö‹»Ö›üß Ûúßü ¯ÖÖê»µÖã¿Ö®Ö

¯Öî¤üÖ Ûú¸ü®Öê Ûúß ÝÖÓ¤üÝÖß •ÖÖ ¸üÆüß Æîü †Öî¸ü ¾ÖÆüà Æü´ÖÖ¸êü ¯ÖÖÃÖ Ûêú¾Ö»Ö 7 Æü•ÖÖ¸ü ÛúÖ µÖÆü ×ÃÖÃ™ü´Ö Æîü, ŸÖÖê

ŒµÖÖ ‡ÃÖ´Öë µÖÆü ²ÖÆãüŸÖ †Ö¾Ö¿µÖÛú ®ÖÆüà ÆüÖê •ÖÖŸÖÖ ×Ûú †ÖÝÖê ÛúÖµÖÔ ÛúÖê ²ÖœÍüÖµÖÖ •ÖÖ‹? ´Öï µÖÆü ´ÖÖ®ÖŸÖÖ

ÆæÑü ×Ûú µÖÆü ‹Ûú ÃÖŸÖŸÖ ¯ÖÏ×ÛÎúµÖÖ Æîü, »Öê×Ûú®Ö ÝÖÓÝÖÖ ®Ö¤üß ´Öë, ×•ÖÃÖê ¸üÖÂ™ÒüßµÖ ®Ö¤üß ‘ÖÖê×ÂÖŸÖ ×ÛúµÖÖ •ÖÖ

“ÖãÛúÖ Æîü, ˆÃÖ´Öë †³Öß ³Öß ÛúÖ®Ö¯Öã¸ü, Ûú®®ÖÖî•Ö, ¾ÖÖ¸üÖÞÖÃÖß †Öî¸ü ÛúÖ»Öß ®Ö¤üß µÖ´Öã®ÖÖ ´Öë •ÖÖê ÝÖÓ¤êü ®ÖÖ»ÖÖë

ÛúÖ ¯ÖÖ®Öß •ÖÖ ¸üÆüÖ Æîü, ‘Ö¸êü»Öæ Ûú“Ö¸üÖ •ÖÖ ¸üÆüÖ Æîü, ‡ÃÖÛúÖê ¸üÖêÛú®Öê Ûúê ×»Ö‹ ŒµÖÖ ¯ÖÏµÖÖÃÖ ×Ûú‹ •ÖÖ

¸üÆüê Æïü? ×¾Ö¿ÖêÂÖ ºþ¯Ö ÃÖê ×¯Ö”û»Öê ‹Ûú ÃÖÖ»Ö ´Öë ŒµÖÖ ÛúÖµÖÔ ×ÛúµÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ Æîü? Æü´Ö Ûú²Ö ŸÖÛú µÖÆü ˆ´´Öß¤ü

Ûú¸ëü ×Ûú ¸üÖÂ™ÒüßµÖ ®Ö¤üß ‘ÖÖê×ÂÖŸÖ ÆüÖê®Öê Ûêú ²ÖÖ¤ü ÝÖÓÝÖÖ ÛúÖ ¯ÖÏ¤æüÂÖÞÖ ÃÖ´ÖÖ¯ŸÖ ÆüÖêÝÖÖ? ‡ÃÖÛêú ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë ´Öï

•ÖÖ®Ö®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆæÓüÝÖÖ…

ÁÖß ®Ö´ÖÖê ®ÖÖ¸üÖµÖÞÖ ´ÖßÞÖÖ : ÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ÝÖÓÝÖÖ Ûêú ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë ±úÃ™Ôü ±êúÃÖ, ÃÖêÛëú›ü ±êúÃÖ “Ö»Öê Æïü

†Öî¸ü ˆÃÖ´Öë ´ÖÖÙ•Ö®Ö»Ö ‡´¯ÖÏæ¾Ö´Öë™ü ³Öß Æãü†Ö Æîü… ´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ÃÖ¤üÃµÖ ÛúÖê ÜÖã¤ü µÖÆü •ÖÖ®ÖÛúÖ¸üß Æîü ×Ûú

´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ¯ÖÏ¬ÖÖ®Ö ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß ®Öê 4 ®Ö¾ÖÓ²Ö¸ü ÛúÖê ‹Ûú ²ÖîšüÛú »Öß †Öî¸ü ˆÃÖ´Öë ÝÖÓÝÖÖ ®Ö¤üß ÛúÖê ®Öê¿Ö®Ö»Ö

×¸ü¾Ö¸ü ‘ÖÖê×ÂÖŸÖ ×ÛúµÖÖ †Öî¸ü ÝÖÓÝÖÖ ×¸ü¾Ö¸ü ²Öê×ÃÖ®Ö †£ÖÖê×¸ü™üß ×ÛÎú‹™ü Ûú¸ü®Öê ÛúÖ ±îúÃÖ»ÖÖ ×ÛúµÖÖ… ÜÖã¤ü

¯ÖÏ¬ÖÖ®Ö ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß ˆÃÖÛúß †¬µÖõÖŸÖÖ Ûú¸ëüÝÖê… ‡ÃÖÛúÖê ‹•Ö ‹ ÆüÖê»Öê×Ã™üÛú ¾Öê ´Öë ‡ÃÖ´Öë °»Ö›ü ´Öî®Öê•Ö´Öë™ü

³Öß ÆüÖê, ÃÖÃ™êü®Öê²Ö»Ö µÖæÃÖ ³Öß ÆüÖê, ¯ÖÖê»µÖã¿Ö®Ö ‹²Öê™ü´Öë™ü ³Öß ÆüÖêÓ, ˆÃÖÛúß ¯Ö¸üÃµÖã‹®ÃÖ ´Öë •ÖÖê ²Öê×ÃÖ®Ö Æïü,

ˆ®ÖÛêú ×»Ö‹ “Öß±ú ÃÖêÛÎêú™ü¸üß•Ö »Öê¾Ö»Ö ¯Ö¸ü ³Öß ´ÖßØ™üÝÖ ÆüÖê “ÖãÛúß Æîü †Öî¸ü †ÖÝÖê ´ÖãÜµÖ- ´ÖÓ×¡ÖµÖÖë Ûúß ³Öß

²ÖîšüÛú Ûúß •ÖÖ‹, ŸÖÖ×Ûú ®Ö¤üß ÛúÖê ‡ÃÖ ŸÖ¸üÆü ÃÖê ÆüÖê»Öê×Ã™üÛú ¾Öê ´Öë »ÖêÛú¸ü ×ÛúÃÖ ŸÖ¸üÆü ÃÖê ÛúÖ´Ö ×ÛúµÖÖ

•ÖÖ‹, ×¾Ö“ÖÖ¸ü ÆüÖê †Öî¸ü †³Öß µÖÆü ÝÖÓÝÖÖ ‹Œ¿Ö®Ö ¯»ÖÖ®Ö ´Öë †Öî¸ü ®Öê¿Ö®Ö»Ö ×¸ü¾Ö¸ü ÃÛúß´Ö ´Öë Æü´Ö ‡®ÖÛúÖê

¯ÖîÃÖÖ ¤êü ¤ëü… ›üß¯Öß†Ö¸ü‹ÃÖ Æü´ÖÖ¸üß ´ÖÓ•Öæ¸ü ÆüÖê “ÖãÛúß Æïü †Öî¸ü ÝÖÓÝÖÖ ´Öë “ÖÖ¸ü Æü•ÖÖ¸ü ‹´Ö‹»Ö›üß

Ûîú¯Öê×ÃÖ™üß Æü´Ö®Öê †³Öß ŸÖÛú Ûú¸ü ¤üß Æîü †Öî¸ü •ÖÖê µÖÆ ü¤æüÃÖ¸üÖ ÝÖê¯Ö Æîü, ˆÃÖ´Öë 999 ‹´Ö‹»Ö›üß ÛúÖ

ÛúÖ´Ö “Ö»Ö ¸üÆüÖ Æîü… Æü´Ö ÆüÖê¯Ö±ãú»Öß ÃÖ´ÖôÖŸÖê Æïü ×Ûú ÃÖ²ÖÃÖê ×´Ö»Ö•Öã»Ö Ûú¸ü ‡ÃÖ ®Ö¤üß ÛúÖê ÃÖÖ±ú Ûú¸ü®Öê

ÛúÖ ¯ÖÏµÖÖÃÖ ×ÛúµÖÖ •ÖÖ ¸üÆüÖ Æîü… Ã¾ÖµÖÓ ¯ÖÏ¬ÖÖ®Ö ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß ‡ÃÖ´Öë ‡®Öß×ÃÖ‹×™ü¾Ö »Öê ¸üÆêü Æïü…

SHRIMATI SHOBHANA BHARTIA: Sir, the CPCB studies indicate that

the waste water generation in urban India has more than doubled in the


33

Q.No. 243 (contd)

last ten years and yet the Minister has himself accepted that the

capacity to treat this has actually fallen from 39 per cent to 24 per cent.

This is quite alarming because we have not kept pace with the growing

urbanisation in terms of dealing with our waste water. There are certain

lacunae in our laws which also point towards this negligence. For

instance, it is not mandatory in India for the municipal bodies to release

only treated waste water into our water bodies. So, would the Minister

consider any amendment in the Water Act of 1974 to ensure that the

CPCB has a say in terms of water that is released and in terms of

withholding funds released to the municipal bodies unless they release

treated water? ( 1Ûêú/›üß‹ÃÖ ¯Ö¸ü †ÖÝÖê)

1k/11.45/DS-VK

ÁÖß ®Ö´ÖÖê ®ÖÖ¸üÖµÖÞÖ ´ÖßÞÖÖ: ´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ÃÖ¤üÃµÖ ÛúÖ ÃÖ¾ÖÖ»Ö ²ÖÆãüŸÖ Æüß †“”ûÖ Æîü †Öî¸ü ‡ÃÖÃÖê ¯ÖŸÖÖ “Ö»ÖŸÖÖ

Æîü ×Ûú ‡ÃÖ´Öë Ûãú”û ÆüÖê®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹… ¾ÖÖ™ü¸ü Ã™êü™ü ÃÖ²•ÖîŒ™ü Æîü… ‹Ûú ¾ÖÖ™ü¸ü ‹Œ™ü Æüß Æîü ×•ÖÃÖÛúß

×•Ö´´Öê¤üÖ¸üß ³Öß State Governments †Öî¸ü Local Bodies Ûúß Æîü ×Ûú ¾Öê ®Ö×¤üµÖÖë, ôÖß»ÖÖë

†Öî¸ü Water Bodies ÛúÖê Œ»Öß®Ö ¸üÜÖëÝÖê… ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖ ÃÖ¸üÛúÖ¸ü supplement Ûú¸ü ¸üÆüß Æîü…

(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)

ÁÖß´ÖŸÖß •ÖµÖÖ ²Ö““Ö®Ö: ÃÖ¸ü, ÝÖÓÝÖÖ ŸÖÖê ¯Öæ¸êü ¤êü¿Ö Ûúß Æîü, ×ÛúÃÖß ‹Ûú Ã™êü™ü Ûúß ŸÖÖê ®ÖÆüà Æîü…

ÁÖß ®Ö´ÖÖê ®ÖÖ¸üÖµÖÞÖ ´ÖßÞÖÖ: µÖÆü ²ÖÖŸÖ •Öºþ ¸ü Æîü ×Ûú ÛúÖ®Öæ®Ö ´Öë Ûãú”û ÃÖã¬ÖÖ¸ü ×Ûú‹ •ÖÖ®Öê Ûúß •Öºþ ¸üŸÖ

Æîü… Water Bodies Ûêú ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öëú Environment Protection Actü ´Öë ³Öß Ûãú”û

directions ×¤üµÖê •ÖÖ ÃÖÛúŸÖê Æïü… ÛúÖ®Öæ®Ö ´Öë ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê¬Ö®Ö ÛúÖ ÛúÖê‡Ô ¯ÖÏÃŸÖÖ¾Ö Æü´ÖÖ¸êü ¯ÖÖÃÖ †³Öß ®ÖÆüà

Æîü… »Öê×Ûú®Ö ´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ÃÖ¤üÃµÖ ®Öê •ÖÖê ´Öã§üÖ ˆšüÖµÖÖ, µÖÆü ×¾Ö“ÖÖ¸ü Ûú¸ü®Öê Ûêú ÛúÖ×²Ö»Ö Æîü…

•ÖÆüÖÑ ŸÖÛú funds ÛúÖ ÃÖ¾ÖÖ»Ö Æîü, Jawaharlal Nehru Renewable Mission ¤êü¿Ö

Ûêú ÃÖÖ¸êü ²Ö›Íêü ™üÖˆ®ÃÖ ´Öë “Ö»Ö ¸üÆüÖ Æîü… ÝÖÓÝÖÖ ×¸ü¾Ö ü̧ ´Öë ¯ÖÖÓ“Ö-”û: ‹êÃÖê ²Ö›Íêü ™üÖˆ®ÃÖ Æïü ×•Ö®Ö´Öë ‡ÃÖ


34

Q.No. 243 (contd)

¯ÖîÃÖê ÛúÖ ˆ¯ÖµÖÖêÝÖ ×ÛúµÖÖ •ÖÖ ÃÖÛúŸÖÖ Æîü… ‡ÃÖÛúÖê ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖ ÃÖ¸üÛúÖ¸ü Ûú¸ü ¸üÆüß Æîü †Öî¸ü State

Governments ÛúÖê ³Öß ‡ÃÖÛúÖ •µÖÖ¤üÖ ÃÖê •µÖÖ¤üÖ ÃÖ¤ãü¯ÖµÖÖêÝÖ Ûú¸ü®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹… ‡ÃÖÛúÖ ˆ¯ÖµÖÖêÝÖ

ÃÖë™Òü»Ö ÝÖ¾Ö®ÖÔ´Öë™ü, State Governments †Öî¸ü Municipalities, ÃÖ²Ö Ûú¸ü ÃÖÛúŸÖê Æïü…

DR. K. MALAISAMY: Sir, when I was a Member of the Public Accounts

Committee as Lok Sabha MP, we visited a number of major rivers under

execution under this scheme. I have got some experience of it when it

was under execution. According to the reply of the hon. Minister, the

Ganga Action Plan was launched in 1985. Now more than 22 years

have passed. The reply further says that 35 other rivers have also been

identified under this scheme. What is the stage of the Ganga Action

Plan? The Minister says that it is Phase-1. Are there any more phases?

Then what is the stage of other 35 rivers? I would also like to know

about the Ganga Action Plan. How much is the allocation of funds under

this scheme? What is the timeframe?

SHRI NAMO NARAIN MEENA: Regarding the Ganga, first and second

mainstream rivers, towns covered - 73; States covered - 5. We have

sanctioned Rs. 1026 crores and the amount released by the Government

of India is Rs. 825 crores. The total number of schemes sanctioned

for the Ganga is 572, out of that 445 have been completed. The work is

going on. We are releasing funds to the State Governments as per the

DPRs.

ÁÖß Ûú´ÖÖ»Ö †ÜŸÖ¸ü: ¿Öã×ÛÎúµÖÖ ÃÖ¸ü, ´Öï †Ö¯ÖÛêú ´ÖÖ¬µÖ´Ö ÃÖê ´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß ÃÖê ¯Öæ”û®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÑü

×Ûú ÃÖ²Ö »ÖÖêÝÖ •ÖÖ®ÖŸÖê Æïü ×Ûú ÝÖÓÝÖÖ †³Öß ¸üÖÂ™ÒüßµÖ ®Ö¤üß ‘ÖÖê×ÂÖŸÖ Ûúß ÝÖ‡Ô Æîü… ü ˆÃÖ´Öë ×•ÖŸÖ®ÖÖ ³Öß

¯ÖÏ¤æüÂÖÞÖ ÆüÖêŸÖÖ Æîü, ¾ÖÆü ˆÃÖ´Öë ×´Ö»Ö®Öê ¾ÖÖ»Öß ®Ö×¤üµÖÖë µÖÖ ®ÖÖ»ÖÖë ÃÖê ÆüÖêŸÖÖ Æîü… ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß ®Öê †¯Ö®Öê

•Ö¾ÖÖ²Ö ´Öë ²ÖŸÖÖµÖÖ Æîü ×Ûú 20 ¸üÖ•µÖÖë ´Öë 164 ¿ÖÆü¸üÖë Ûúß 35 ®Ö×¤üµÖÖë Ûúß ¯ÖÆü“ÖÖ®Ö Ûúß ÝÖ‡Ô Æîü •ÖÖê


35

Q.No. 243 (contd)

ˆÃÖÛúÖê ¯ÖÏ¤æü×ÂÖŸÖ Ûú¸ü ¸üÆüß Æïü… ´Öï ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß ÃÖê µÖÆü ¯Öæ”û®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÑü ×Ûú Æü×¸ü«üÖ¸ü ÃÖê •Ö²Ö ÝÖÓÝÖÖ

×®ÖÛú»ÖŸÖß Æîü ŸÖÖê †ÝÖ¸ü ÃÖ²ÖÃÖê ¯ÖÆü»Öê ˆÃÖ´Öë ¯ÖÖò»µÖæ¿Ö®Ö ÆüÖêŸÖÖ Æîü ŸÖÖê ¾ÖÆü ÝÖ•Ö¸üÖî»ÖÖ Ûúß †ÖîªÖê×ÝÖÛú

‡ÛúÖ‡µÖÖÑ, •ÖÖê ²ÖÝÖ¤ü ®Ö¤üß Ûêú †Ó¤ü¸ü ¯Ö›ÍüŸÖß Æïü, ˆ®ÖÃÖê ÆüÖêŸÖÖ Æîü… ´Öï µÖÆü ¯Öæ”û®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÑü ×Ûú †Ö¯Ö®Öê •ÖÖê

164 ¿ÖÆü¸üÖë ´Öë ‡®Ö 35 ®Ö×¤üµÖÖë Ûúß ¯ÖÆü“ÖÖ®Ö Ûúß Æîü, ŒµÖÖ ˆ®Ö´Öë ²ÖÝÖ¤ü ®Ö¤üß ³Öß ¿ÖÖ×´Ö»Ö Æîü?

SHRI NAMO NARAIN MEENA: Whether a particular river is there or not, I

will give this reply to the hon. Member. But the NRCP work is going on.

Sir, I will send the reply to the Member.

ÁÖß Ûú´ÖÖ»Ö †ÜŸÖ¸ü: ÃÖ¸ü, µÖÆü ‡ŸÖ®ÖÖ ´ÖÆüŸ¾Ö¯ÖæÞÖÔ Æîü ×Ûú ‡ÃÖ ¯Ö¸ü Half-an-Hour discussion ÆüÖê “ÖãÛúÖ

Æîü…ü †³Öß ¯ÖÏ¬ÖÖ®Ö ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß Ûúß †Öê¸ü ÃÖê -- ˆ®ÆüÖë®Öê ²ÖŸÖÖµÖÖ ×Ûú ¸üÖÂ™ÒüßµÖ ®Ö¤üß ‘ÖÖê×ÂÖŸÖ Ûúß ÝÖ‡Ô Æîü… †ÝÖ¸

×•ÖÃÖ ®Ö¤üß ÃÖêü ÃÖ²ÖÃÖê ¯ÖÆü»Öê ¯ÖÖò»µÖæ¿Ö®Ö ÆüÖê ¸üÆüÖ Æîü, ˆÃÖß ®Ö¤üß ÛúÖê ®ÖÆüà ×»ÖµÖÖ •ÖÖ‹ÝÖÖ- ´Öï ÝÖÖ¸Óü™üß Ûêú

ÃÖÖ£Ö ÛúÆü ÃÖÛúŸÖÖ ÆæÑü ×Ûú ˆÃÖê ®ÖÆüà ×»ÖµÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ Æîü… ´Öï †®Öã¸üÖê¬Ö ÛúºþÑÝÖÖ ×Ûú ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß ˆÃÖÛúÖê »Öê »Öë…

(1Lú/‹Ûêú‹ ¯Ö¸ü †ÖÝÖê) AKA/RG/1L/11:50

ÁÖß ®Ö´ÖÖê ®ÖÖ¸üÖµÖÞÖ ´ÖßÞÖÖ : †Ö¯ÖÛúÖê Æü´Ö®Öê ¯ÖÆü»Öê ²ÖŸÖÖµÖÖ ×Ûú Ganga River basin ÛúÖê cover Ûú¸ü®Öê

Ûúß revamping scheme “Ö»Ö ¸üÆüß Æîü, •ÖÖê ³Öß ÝÖÓÝÖÖ Ûúß tributaries ÆüÖëÝÖß, †ÝÖ¸ü ‡ÃÖ´Öë ®ÖÆüà Æïü,

they will all be covered.

SHRI Y.P. TRIVEDI: Sir, I will not make a statement. I will straight away

come to the supplementary.

In the context of what is being discussed, would the Government

seriously consider implementation of the old proposal, of linking the major

rivers of the country, of what was popularly called as Garland Canal Project?

Bringing the waters of Ganges right up to Cauvery, it will have an effect of

reducing the river pollution.

SHRI NAMO NARAIN MEENA: Sir, it is a good supplementary. But the

hon. Minister should address it to the concerned Minister.

(Ends)


36


37


38


39


40

¯ÖÏ¿®Ö ÃÖÓÜµÖÖ : 244

›üÖ0 ´Öã¸ü»Öß ´Ö®ÖÖêÆü¸ü •ÖÖê¿Öß : ÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ •Öß, ´ÖÓ¡Öß ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ ®Öê •ÖÖê ¾ÖŒŸÖ¾µÖ ¸üÜÖÖ Æîü, ˆÃÖÃÖê Ûãú”û

²ÖÖŸÖ ÃÖÖ±ú ®ÖÆüà ÆüÖêŸÖß… ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖ¾ÖÂÖÔ ´Öë ÝÖ¸üß²Öß Ûúß ¸êüÜÖÖ Ûêú ®Öß“Öê ×ÛúŸÖ®Öê »ÖÖêÝÖ Æïü, ÝÖ¸üß²Öß Ûúß †ÖµÖ

ÛúÖ ×®Ö¬ÖÖÔ¸üÞÖ ×ÛúÃÖ ×ÆüÃÖÖ²Ö ÃÖê ×ÛúµÖÖ •ÖÖŸÖÖ Æîü, µÖê ÃÖ¾ÖÖ»Ö ‡ÃÖ´Öë ÃÖê ˆšü ¸üÆêü Æïü… ŒµÖÖë×Ûú, ×¯Ö”û»Öê

×¤ü®ÖÖë Ã¾ÖÖÃ£µÖ ´ÖÓ¡ÖÖ»ÖµÖ Ûúß ŸÖ¸ü±ú ÃÖê ÃÖã¯ÖÏß´Ö ÛúÖê™Ôü ´Öë µÖÆü ÛúÆüÖ ÝÖµÖÖ Æîü ×Ûú 1999 †Öî¸ü 2000

Ûúß Ûúß´ÖŸÖÖë ¯Ö¸ü All India level ¯Ö¸ü •ÖÖê ÝÖ¸üß²Öß ¸êüÜÖÖ Æîü, ¾ÖÆü 327.56 ¹ý¯Ö‹ ¯ÖÏ×ŸÖ ´ÖÖÆü ÝÖÏÖ´ÖßÞÖ

õÖê¡ÖÖë Ûêú ×»Ö‹ †Öî¸ü 454.11 ¹ý¯Ö‹ ¯ÖÏ×ŸÖ ´ÖÖÆü ¿ÖÆü¸üß õÖê¡ÖÖë Ûêú ×»Ö‹ Æîü… ‡ÃÖÛúÖ ´ÖŸÖ»Ö²Ö µÖÆü Æîü

×Ûú †ÝÖ¸ü †Ö¯Ö ×¤ü»»Öß ´Öë 15-16 ¹ý¯Ö‹ ¸üÖê•Ö Ûú´ÖÖŸÖê Æïü ŸÖÖê †Ö¯Ö ÝÖ¸üß²Öß Ûúß ÃÖß´ÖÖ Ûêú ®Öß“Öê Æïü…

´Öï µÖÆü ¯Öæ”û®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÓü ×Ûú ‡®Ö 15-16 ¹ý¯Ö‹ ´Öë ÛúÖî®Ö ÃÖÖ consumption ÆüÖê ÃÖÛúŸÖÖ Æîü?

†Ö¤ü´Öß ÜÖÖ®ÖÖ ³Öß ®ÖÆüà ÜÖÖ ÃÖÛúŸÖÖ… †Ö¯Ö calorie intake Ûêú ×ÆüÃÖÖ²Ö ÃÖê ×®Ö¬ÖÖÔ×¸üŸÖ Ûú¸üŸÖê Æïü,

»Öê×Ûú®Ö ¾ÖÆü ÜÖÖ®ÖÖ ®ÖÆüà ÜÖÖ ÃÖÛúŸÖÖ, ¾ÖÆü Ûú¯Ö›Íêü ®ÖÆüà ¯ÖÆü®Ö ÃÖÛúŸÖÖ, ¾ÖÆü •ÖæŸÖê ®ÖÆüà ¯ÖÆü®Ö ÃÖÛúŸÖÖ,

¾ÖÆü ²Ö““ÖÖë ÛúÖê ŒµÖÖ ×ÜÖ»ÖÖ‹ÝÖÖ, ŒµÖÖë×Ûú 15 ¹ý¯Ö‹ ŸÖÖê ˆÃÖÛúß Ûãú»Ö †Ö´Ö¤ü®Öß Æîü… ŸÖÖê †Ö¯Ö®Öê µÖÆü

•ÖÖê ÝÖ¸üß²Öß Ûúß ¸êüÜÖÖ ÛúÖ ×®Ö¬ÖÖÔ¸üÞÖ ×ÛúµÖÖ Æîü ‡ÃÖÛúÖ ´ÖŸÖ»Ö²Ö ŒµÖÖ Æîü †Öî¸ü ×±ú¸ü †Ö¯Ö ×ÛúÃÖ ¸üÖÃŸÖê

ÃÖê ˆÃÖÛúÖê ×®Ö¬ÖÖÔ×¸üŸÖ Ûú¸ü ¸üÆêü Æïü? †Ö¯Ö ×ÃÖ±Ôú sample survey Ûú¸ü¾ÖÖŸÖê Æïü, ˆ®ÖÛúÖ ´ÖŸÖ»Ö²Ö

ŒµÖÖ Æîü, ¾Öê ×ÛúÃÖ †Ö¬ÖÖ¸ü ¯Ö¸ü ÆüÖêŸÖê Æïü, ÛîúÃÖê ÆüÖêŸÖê Æïü? ‡ÃÖ´Öë ‹Ûú ²ÖÖŸÖ µÖÆü ³Öß Æîü ×Ûú ŒµÖÖ †Ö¯Ö

inflation Ûêú ×ÆüÃÖÖ²Ö ÃÖê ‡ÃÖÛúÖê ³Öß ‹›ü•ÖÃ™ü Ûú¸üŸÖê Æïü †Öî¸ü ŒµÖÖ †Ö¯Ö®Öê †•ÖãÔ®Ö ÃÖê®Ö ÝÖã¯ŸÖÖ Ûúß

×¸ü¯ÖÖê™Ôü ÛúÖ †¬µÖµÖ®Ö ×ÛúµÖÖ Æîü? †¯Ö®Öê ‹Ûú ´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ÃÖÖÓÃÖ¤ü Ûúß µÖÆü ×¸ü¯ÖÖê™Ôü Æîü, ²ÖÆãüŸÖ ´ÖÆüŸ¾Ö¯ÖæÞÖÔ

×¸ü¯ÖÖê™Ôü Æîü… ŸÖÖê µÖÆü ÝÖ¸üß²Öß Ûúß ÃÖß´ÖÖ Ûêú ÃÖÖ£Ö ÃÖ¸üÛúÖ¸ü ´Ö•ÖÌÖÛú ŒµÖÖë Ûú¸ü ¸üÆüß Æîü? †Ö¯Ö µÖÆü

×¤üÜÖÖ®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖê Æïü ×Ûú ‡ÃÖ ¤êü¿Ö ´Öë ×ÃÖ±Ôú 25-26 Ûú¸üÖê›Íü ÝÖ¸üß²Ö Æïü, †ÃÖ×»ÖµÖŸÖ ÛúÖê ŒµÖÖë ×”û¯ÖÖ®ÖÖ

“ÖÖÆüŸÖê Æïü? ‡ÃÖ ¤êü¿Ö Ûúß ÃÖ““ÖÖ‡Ô ÃÖÖ´Ö®Öê †Ö®Öê ¤üß×•Ö‹, •ÖÖê ÝÖ¸üß²Öß ×¯Ö”û»Öê 60 ÃÖÖ»Ö ´Öë Æü´Ö ®ÖÆüà

×´Ö™üÖ ÃÖÛêú Æïü, ¾ÖÆü ¤êü¿Ö Ûêú ÃÖÖ´Ö®Öê †Ö •ÖÖ®Öß “ÖÖ×Æü‹ †Öî¸ü ¯»ÖÖØ®ÖÝÖ Ûú´Öß¿Ö®Ö ¾ÖÝÖî¸üÆü Ûúß •ÖÖê ÃÖÖ¸üß

×¾Ö±ú»ÖŸÖÖ‹Ó Æïü, ¾Öê ¤êü¿Ö Ûêú ÃÖÖ´Ö®Öê †Ö •ÖÖ®Öß “ÖÖ×Æü‹…

MR. CHAIRMAN: Let your supplementary be answered.

›üÖ0 ´Öã¸ü»Öß ´Ö®ÖÖêÆü¸ü •ÖÖê¿Öß : ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ ´Öê¸üÖ †Ö¯ÖÃÖê ×®Ö¾Öê¤ü®Ö Æîü ×Ûú †Ö¯Ö Ã¯ÖÂ™ü ²ÖÖŸÖ ²ÖŸÖÖ‹Ó ×Ûú ¤êü¿Ö

´Öë ÝÖ¸üß²Öß Ûúß ÃÖß´ÖÖ ÛúÖê ×®Ö¬ÖÖÔ¸üÞÖ Ûú¸ü®Öê Ûêú ×»Ö‹ ŒµÖÖ ´ÖÖ®Ö¤Óü›ü ÆüÖê®Öê “ÖÖ×Æü‹, †Ö¯Ö®Öê •ÖÖê ´ÖÖ®Ö¤Óü›ü


41

Q.No. 244 (contd)

†³Öß ŸÖÛú ²Ö®ÖÖ‹ Æïü, ŒµÖÖ ¾Öê ÃÖÆüß Æïü †Öî¸ü ˆ®ÖÛêú †Ö¬ÖÖ¸ü ¯Ö¸ü ¤êü¿Ö ´Öë ÝÖ¸üß²ÖÖë Ûúß ÃÖÓÜµÖÖ ×ÛúŸÖ®Öß

ÆüÖê®Öß “ÖÖ×Æü‹?

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Sir, the hon. senior Member has put a very

long list of supplementaries relating to poverty line. Sir, the poverty line

in our country is being assessed on the basis of household consumption

expenditure by every household. And it is not on the basis of dollar

rate that is prevailing at the international market...

DR. MURLI MANOHAR JOSHI: I have not said it...(Interruptions)

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: He is not answering the supplementary put

by the hon. Member.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Please don't interrupt...(Interruptions) Allow the

supplementary to be answered.

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Sir, I have just started the reply. The

Government appointed a committee under Dr. D.T. Lakadwala. He went

into the suggestions made by the Expert Group. The Expert Group

submitted its Report to the Government...(Interruptions)

SHRI DIGVIJAY SINGH: When was it?

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: That was in 1997. They submitted a

report. Sorry; it was 1993. The Report was submitted in

1997...(Interruptions) (Continued by 1M)

TDB-VNK/1M/11.55

DR. MURLI MANOHAR JOSHI: Sir, what is this? The hon. Minister

should give us the correct date. He should give us one date.

...(Interruptions)...

MR. CHAIRMAN: Dr. Saab, this is not helping matters.


42

Q.No. 244 (contd)

›üÖ. ´Öã¸ü»Öß ´Ö®ÖÖêÆü¸ü •ÖÖê¿Öß : ÃÖ¸ü, µÖÆü ŒµÖÖ ÆüÖê ¸üÆüÖ Æîü? Sir, the House cannot be held

to ransom like this. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Sir, I am just answering. The National

Sample Survey Organisation does the survey. On the basis of the

survey, they submit a report to the Planning Commission. Sir, I would

like to submit that the percentage of the number of the people living

below the poverty line at the national and State level, in urban and rural

areas, is being worked out in our country. It is not like the western

countries. Sir, the hon. Member wanted to know about the percentage

of this. According to 2004-05...(Interruptions)...

DR. MURLI MANOHAR JOSHI: Sir, I have asked...(Interruptions)... Sir,

this is not fair. ...(Interruptions)...

MR. CHAIRMAN: Dr. Saab, you have to ask the second supplementary

also...(Interruptions)...

DR. MURLI MANOHAR JOSHI: Sir, the hon. Minister has every right to

reply, but not a right to confuse the House. If he has the right to

confuse, then, we are getting nowhere with this. ...(Interruptions)... What

is this? ...(Interruptions)... The hon. Minister cannot confuse the country.

ÁÖß´ÖŸÖß ¾ÖéÓ¤üÖ ÛúÖ¸üŸÖ : ÃÖ¸ü, µÖÆü ²Öß¯Öß‹»Ö fraud Æîü ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..…

MR. CHAIRMAN: Please...(Interruptions)... Please, your turn is coming.

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: It is the destitution line. ...(Interruptions)... It

is the destitution line. ...(Interruptions)... It is a shame for our country.

DR. MURLI MANOHAR JOSHI: Sir, the hon. Minister must make a clear-

cut reply. Sir, I have asked a very specific question. I have not said that

it is just on the basis of the western countries. I have said that you


43

Q.No. 244 (contd)

judge it on the basis of the calorie intake. I said that you have judged it

on the basis of the sample survey. On that basis, I have asked certain

question. Please answer them directly. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Sir, I am answering them.

...(Interruptions)... Sir, there is a confusion on the question of poverty

line. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI TAPAN KUMAR SEN: By that time, the Question Hour will be

over.

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Sir, I would like to clarify that the poverty

line is different and assessing the poor is different. That is being done

by the Rural Development Ministry. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, he is confusing the House.

DR. MURLI MANOHAR JOSHI: Sir, what is this? Sir, he is again

confusing the House. ...(Interruptions)...

ÁÖß ×¿Ö¾ÖÖ®Ö®¤ü ×ŸÖ¾ÖÖ¸üß : ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ‡ÃÖ ×¾ÖÂÖµÖ ¯Ö¸ü special discussion Ûú¸ü¾ÖÖ ×¤üµÖÖ •ÖÖ‹

..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..…

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Have the patience to hear me.


MR. CHAIRMAN: Please, let the Minister reply. ...(Interruptions)...

DR. MURLI MANOHAR JOSHI: Sir, the Planning Commission says one

thing; the Ministry of Health says something else. ...(Interruptions)...

MR. CHAIRMAN: This is not fair. ...(Interruptions)...

Please...(Interruptions)... The Leader of the House wishes to intervene.

ÁÖß ×¿Ö¾ÖÖ®Ö®¤ü ×ŸÖ¾ÖÖ¸üß : ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, µÖÆü ÝÖÓ³Öß¸ü ´ÖÃÖ»ÖÖ Æîü, ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ ‡ÃÖ ¯Ö¸ü special discussion

ÆüÖê®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..…


44

Q.No. 244 (contd)

DR. MANMOHAN SINGH: Mr. Chairman, Sir, there are several ways in

which poverty can be measured, and particular reference to the World

Bank Study is a Report by two distinguished scholars, that is not the

methodology which is used by the Planning Commission. We have,

every five years, a large sample of the National Sample Survey. That is

the basis for calculating the consumption poverty on the head count

basis, and that is the poverty line which is in terms of the basket of

goods and services which would enable a person to consume 2400

calories in the rural areas and 2100 calories in the urban areas. As

prices change, this is also taken into account.

DR. MURLI MANOHAR JOSHI: It means that you don't take into

account any other consumption, except the calories. ...(Interruptions)...

But, the human body does not only consume calories, he has to clothe

himself, he has to provide something to his family also, and not even to

the family, the basic requirement of medicines for him, and then,

education for himself and his children, the house rent, electricity, etc.

What should, therefore, be the total consumption? Is it calorie alone?

...(Interruptions)... Is it calorie alone?

DR. MANMOHAN SINGH: Mr. Chairman, Sir, there can be, I think, many

measures of poverty. I am not saying that this is the only measure of

poverty, but this has been a measure which has been certified by an

expert committee under Prof. D.T. Lakadwala. Further, the refinements

are possible, and Dr. Suresh Tendulkar Committee is looking into this

matter.


45

Q.No. 244 (contd)

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, I would like to ask of the Prime

Minister, through you, would he agree that the quantification of the

poverty line today of 329 rupees in the rural areas per adult is a fraud on

the poor people of this country because the entire Government's policy

of providing benefits to the poor is linked to this. And if he agrees that

329 rupees in a growing economy is a fraud, what is the Prime Minister

doing to change it?

MR. CHAIRMAN: I am afraid, the Question Hour is over.

(Ends)

kgg/mp/1n/12.00

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN in the Chair

PAPERS LAID ON THE TABLE

SHRI AJAY MAKEN: I lay on the Table a copy (in English and Hindi) of the Annual Report and Accounts of the National Capital Region Planning Board (NCRPB), New Delhi, for the year 2007-2008, together with the Auditor's Report on the Accounts, under section 26 of the National Capital Region Planning Board Act, 1985.

SHRI T.R. BAALU: I lay on the Table-- I. A copy (in English and Hindi) of the Ministry of Shipping, Road Transport and Highways (Department of Shipping) Notification G.S.R. 811 (E), dated the 21st November, 2008, publishing the Kolkata Port Trust Employees (Medical Attendance and Treatment) Amendment Regulations, 2008, under sub-section (4) of section 124 of the Major Port Trusts Act, 1963.

II. (1) A copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following papers, under section 5(E) of the Dock Workers (Regulation of Employment) Act, 1948 :-


46

(a) Thirty-eighth Annual Report and Accounts of the Kandla Dock

Labour Board, Kandla, from 1.4.2006 to 23.1.2007, together with

the Auditor's Report on the Accounts.

(b) Review by Government on the working of the above Board.

(2) Statement (in English and Hindi) giving reasons for the delay in

laying the papers mentioned at (1) above.

III. A copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following papers, under sub-section (1) of section 619A of the Companies Act, 1956:-

(i) (a) Thirty-second Annual Report and Accounts of the Dredging

Corporation of India Limited (DCI), Delhi, for the year 2007-

2008, together with the Auditor's Report on the Accounts and

the comments of the Comptroller and Auditor General of India

thereon.

(b) Review by Government on the working of the above Corporation.

(ii) (a) Eighth Annual Report and Accounts of the Ennore Port Limited

(EPL), Chennai, for the year 2007-2008, together with the

Auditor's Report on the Accounts and the comments of the

Comptroller and Auditor General of India thereon.

(b) Review by Government on the working of the above Company.

IV. A copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following papers, under section 106 of the Major Port Trusts Act, 1963:-

(i)(a) Annual Administration Report of the Visakhapatnam Port Trust,

Visakhapatnam, for the year 2007-2008.

(b) Review by Government on the working of the above Port Trust.


47

(ii)(a) Annual Administration Report of the New Mangalore Port Trust,

Mangalore, for the year 2007-2008.


(iii)(a) Annual Administration Report of the Mormugao Port Trust,

Mormugao, for the year 2007-2008.


(iv)(a) Annual Administration Report of the Kandla Port Trust,

Gandhidham (Gujarat), for the year 2007-2008.


(v)(a) Annual Administration Report of the Jawaharlal Nehru Port

Trust, Navi Mumbai, for the year 2007-2008.


(vi)(a) Annual Administration Report of the Paradip Port Trust,

Paradip, for the year 2007-2008.


(vii)(a) Annual Administration Report of the Kolkata Port Trust,

Kolkata, for the year 2007-2008.


V. A copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following papers, under

sub-section (2) of section 103 and section 106 of the Major Port Trusts

Act, 1963:-

(i)(a) Annual Administration Report and Accounts of the Cochin Port


48

Trust, Cochin, for the year 2007-2008, together with the

Auditor's Report on the Accounts.


(ii)(a) Annual Administration Report and Accounts of the Chennai

Port Trust, Chennai, for the year 2007-2008, together with the



(iii)(a) Annual Administration Report and Accounts of the Tuticorin

Port Trust, Tuticorin, for the year 2007-2008, together with the



VI. A copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following papers, under section 102 of the Major Port Trusts Act, 1963:-

(a) Annual Accounts of the Mumbai Port Trust Pension Fund Trust,

Mumbai, for the year 2007-2008, together with the Auditor's

Report on the Accounts.


VII. A copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following papers, under sub-section (2) of section 103 of the Major Port Trusts Act, 1963: -

(i)(a) Annual Accounts of the Kolkata Port Trust, Kolkata, for the year

2007-2008, and the Audit Report thereon.

(b) Review by Government of the Annual Accounts and Audit

Report.

(ii)(a) Annual Accounts of the Jawaharlal Nehru Port Trust, Navi


49

Mumbai, for the year 2007-2008, and the Audit Report thereon.


Report.

(iii)(a) Annual Accounts of the Tariff Authority for Major Ports,

Mumbai, for the year 2007-2008, and the Audit Report thereon.


Report.

(iv)(a) Annual Accounts of the New Mangalore Port Trust, Mangalore,

for the year 2007-2008, and the Audit Report thereon.


Report.

(v)

(a) Annual Accounts of the Mormugao Port Trust, Mormugao, for

the year 2007-2008, and the Audit Report thereon.


Report.

(vi)(a) Annual Accounts of the Visakhapatnam Port Trust,

Visakhapatnam, for the year 2007-2008, and the Audit Report

thereon.


Report.

(vii)

(a) Annual Accounts of the Kandla Port Trust, Gandhidham

(Gujarat), for the year 2007-2008, and the Audit Report thereon.



50

Report.

(viii)(a) Annual Accounts of the Paradip Port Trust, Paradip, for the

year 2007-2008, and the Audit Report thereon.


Report.

(ix)(a) Annual Accounts of the Mumbai Port Trust, Mumbai, for the

year 2007-2008, and the Audit Report thereon.


Report.

VIII. A copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following papers:—

(a) Annual Report and Accounts of the National Ship Design

and Research Centre (NSDRC), Visakhapatnam, for the year

2007-2008, together with the Auditor's Report on the Accounts.

(b) Review by Government on the working of the above Centre.

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Sir, on behalf of Shri Mani Shankar Aiyar, I lay on the Table

I. A copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following papers, under sub-section (1) of section 619A of the Companies Act, 1956:

(i)(a) Twenty-sixth Annual Report and Accounts of the North

Eastern Regional Agricultural Marketing Corporation Limited

(NERAMAC), Guwahati, for the year 2007-2008, together with

the Auditor's Report on the Accounts and the comments of the


(b) Statement by Government accepting the above Report.


51

(ii)(a) Thirty-first Annual Report and Accounts of the North Eastern

Handicrafts and Handlooms Development Corporation Limited

(NEHHDC), Shillong, for the year 2007-2008, together with the




II. A copy (in English and Hindi) of the Memorandum of Understanding between the Government of India (Ministry of Development of North Eastern Region) and the North Eastern Regional Agricultural Marketing Corporation Limited (NERAMAC), Guwahati, for the year 2008-2009.

KUMARI SELJA: Sir, I lay on the Table

I. A copy (in English and Hindi) of the Annual Accounts of the Delhi Urban Art Commission (DUAC), New Delhi, for the year 2007-2008, together with the Auditor's Report thereon, under section 20(4) of the Delhi Urban Art Commission Act, 1973.

II. A copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following papers:

(i)(a) Annual Report and Accounts of the Building Materials and

Technology Promotion Council (BMTPC), New Delhi, for the

year 2007-2008, together with the Auditor's Report on the

Accounts.

(b) Review by Government on the working of the above Council.

(ii)(a) Eighteenth Annual Report and Accounts of the Central

Government Employees Welfare Housing Organisation, New

Delhi, for the year 2007-2008, together with the Auditor's Report

on the Accounts.

(b) Review by Government on the working of the above


52

Organisation.

(iii)(a) Fifty-fifth Annual Report and Accounts of the Hindustran Prefab

Limited (HPL), New Delhi, for the year 2007-2008, together with



5. SHRI G.K.VASAN to lay on the Table a copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following papers:—

(a) Seventy-sixth Annual Report and Accounts of the Indian

Statistical Institute (ISI), Kolkata, for the year 2007-2008,

together with the Auditor's Report on the Accounts.

(b) Review by Government on the working of the above Institute.

SHRI K.H.MUNIYAPPA: Sir, I lay on the Table :-

I. A copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following Notifications of

the Ministry of Shipping, Road Transport & Highways (Department of

Road Transport and Highways), under section 10 of the National

Highways Act, 1956:—

(1) S.O. 524 (E), dated the 18th March, 2008, amending Notification No. S.O. 206 (E), dated the 11th February, 2005, to substitute certain entries in the original Notification.

(2) S.O. 790 (E), dated the 1st April, 2008, regarding acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km. 40.000 to Km. 62.290 (Hyderabad – Vijaywada Section) on National Highway No. 9 in the State of Andhra Pradesh along with delay statement.

(3) S.O. 796 (E), dated the 1st April, 2008, amending Notification No. S.O. 1096 (E), dated the 4th August, 2005, to substitute


53

certain entries in the original Notification along with delay statement.

(4) S.O. 798 (E), dated the 1st April, 2008, amending Notification No. S.O. 1096 (E), dated the 4th August, 2005, to substitute certain entries in the original Notification along with delay statement.

(5) S.O. 805 (E), dated the 3rd April, 2008, amending Notification No. S.O. 1818 (E), dated 25th October, 2007, to substitute certain entries in the original notification.

(6) S.O. 814 (E), dated the 4th April, 2008, regarding authorization of competent authority for acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km. 107.100 to Km. 273.500 (Gurgaon-Jaipur Section) on National Highway No. 8 in the State of Rajasthan.

(7) S.O. 815 (E), dated the 4th April, 2008, regarding acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km. 108.000 to Km.173.350 (Vadodara-Surat Section) on National Highway No.8 in Vadodara District in the State of Gujarat.

(8) S.O. 816 (E), dated the 4th April, 2008, regarding acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km. 218.400 to Km. 263.400 (Bharuch-Surat Section) on National Highway No.8 in Surat District in the State of Gujarat.

(9) S.O. 832 (E), dated the 9th April, 2008, regarding acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km. 347.600 to Km. 364.000 (Jaipur – Kishangarh Section) on National Highway No. 8 in Ajmer District in the State of Rajasthan.

(10) S.O. 834 (E), dated the 9th April, 2008, amending Notification No. S.O. 1096 (E), dated the 4th August, 2005, to substitute certain entries in the original Notification along with delay statement.

(11) S.O. 850 (E), dated the 10th April, 2008, regarding acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km. 190.600 to Km. 221.500 (Hyderabad –Vijayawada Section) on National Highway No. 9 in the State of Andhra Pradesh along with delay statement.

(12) S.O. 851 (E), dated the 10th April, 2008, regarding acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km. 62.290 to Km.


54

126.750 (Hyderabad-Vijayawada Section) on National Highway No.9 in the State of Andhra Pradesh along with delay statement.

(13) S.O. 852 (E), dated the 10th April, 2008, regarding authorisation

of Competent Authority for acquisition of land on National Highway No.18 in the State of Andhra Pradesh.

(14) S.O. 853 (E), dated the 10th April, 2008, regarding acquisition

of land, with or without structure, from Km. 29.000 to Km. 34.000 (from Monacharra Bazar to Aenakhal) (Dhaleshwari Bhairabi road) on National Highway No. 154 for construction of double lane road under SARDP-NE programme in the State of Assam along with delay statement.

(15) S.O. 875 (E), dated the 15th April, 2008, amending Notification

No. S.O. 1766 (E), dated the 17th October, 2007, to substitute certain entries in the original Notification.

(16) S.O. 927 (E), dated the 24th April, 2008, publishing

Corrigendum to Notification No. 1316 (E), dated the 1st August, 2007, to substitute certain entries in the original Notification.

(17) S.O. 928 (E), dated the 24th April, 2008, publishing

Corrigendum to Notification No.1318 (E), dated the 1st August, 2007, to substitute certain entries in the original Notification.

(18) S.O. 939 (E), dated the 25th April, 2008, regarding acquisition of

land, with or without structure, from Km. 344.000 to Km. 345.000 (Chittorgarh-Kota Section) on National Highway No. 76 in Buddi District in the State of Rajasthan.

(19) S.O. 1029 (E), dated the 28th April, 2008, amending

Notification No. S.O. 601 (E), dated 19th May, 2004, to substitute certain entries in the original Notification.

(20) S.O. 1030 (E), dated the 28th April, 2008, regarding acquisition

of land, with or without structure, from Km. 0.000 to Km. 22.000 (Daboka-Lanka Section) on National Highway No.54 in


55

Nagaon District in the State of Assam. (21) S.O. 1031 (E), dated the 28th April, 2008, regarding acquisition

of land, with or without structure, from Km. 241.000 to Km. 262.725 on National Highway No.37 and Nagaon Bypass starting at Km. 262.725 of National Highway No. 37 crossing National Highway No. 36 at Km. 5.000 and ending at Km. 280.570 of National Highway No. 37 in Nagaon District in the State of Assam.

(22) S.O. 1091 (E), dated the 6th May, 2008, amending Notification

No. S.O. 645 (E), dated 31st May, 2004, to substitute certain entries in the original Notification.


No. S.O. 1096 (E), dated the 4th August, 2005, to substitute certain entries in the original Notification.


No. S.O. 815 (E), dated the 25th May, 2007, to substitute certain entries in the original Notification.

(25) S.O. 1113 (E), dated the 8th May, 2008, regarding acquisition of

land, with or without structure, from km.287.900 to km.379.000 (Jhansi–Lakhanadon Section) on National Highway No.26 in Narsinghpur District in the State of Madhya Pradesh.

(26) S.O. 1114 (E), dated the 8th May, 2008, regarding acquisition

of land, with or without structure, from km.379.000 to km.405.770 (Jhansi–Lakhanadon Section) on National Highway No.26 in Seoni District in the State of Madhya Pradesh.

(27) 1163 (E), dated the 16th May, 2008, regarding declaration of new National Highways in the State of Arunachal Pradesh.

(28) S.O. 1176 (E), dated the 21st May, 2008, regarding

authorization of competent authority for acquisition of land on National Highway No. 205 in the State of Andhra Pradesh.


56

(29) S.O. 1177 (E), dated the 21st May, 2008, regarding authorization of officer for acquisition of land from Km. 0.00 to Km. 8.00 on National Highway No.40 in Kamrup (Metro) District in the State of Assam.

(30) S.O. 1178 (E), dated the 21st May, 2008, amending

Notification No. S.O. 221 (E), dated the 10th February, 2005, to substitute certain entries in the original Notification.

(31) S.O. 1222 (E), dated the 27th May, 2008, regarding acquisition

of land, with or without structure, from km.0.000 to km.14.132 and from km. 20.032 to km 46.479 (Indore - Khalghat Section) on National Highway No.3 in Indore District in the State of Madhya Pradesh.

(32) S.O. 1401 (E), dated the 9th June, 2008, regarding acquisition

of land, with or without structure, from km.322.400 to km.405.000 (Durg-Nagpur Section) on National Highway No.6 in Rajnandgaon District in the State of Chattisgarh.

(33) S.O. 1428 (E), dated the 10th June, 2008, regarding

authorisation of Competent Authority for acquisition of land on National Highway No. 14 in Ajmer District in the State of Rajasthan.

(34) S.O. 1429(E), dated the 10th June, 2008, regarding acquisition

of land, with or without structure, from Km. 86.160 to 110.500 (Bharatpur–Mahuwa Section) on National Highway No. 11 in the State of Rajasthan.

(35) S.O. 1438 (E), dated the 12th June, 2008, amending

Notification No. S.O. 1009 (E), dated the 10th November, 2000, to substitute certain entries in the original Notification.


of land, with or without structure, from Km. 204.400 to Km. 241.000 (Jagiroad-Thekeraguri Section) on National Highway No.37 in Morigaon District in the State of Assam.


57

(37) S.O. 1548 (E), dated the 25th June , 2008, regarding acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km. 285.633 to Km. 308.000 (Nagpur – Hyderabad section) on National Highway No. 7 in the State of Andhra Pradesh.

(38) S.O. 1549(E), dated the 25th June , 2008, regarding acquisition

of land, with or without structure, from Km. 429.000 to Km. 447.000 (Nagpur-Hyderabad Section) on National Highway No. 7 in the State of Andhra Pradesh.

(39) S.O. 1550(E), dated the 25th June , 2008, regarding acquisition

of land, with or without structure, from Km. 133.000 to Km. 203.000 (Hyderabad-Bangalore Section) on National Highway No.7 in the State of Andhra Pradesh.


of land, with or without structure, from km.118.400 to km.139.000 on National Highway No.3 (Khalghat–M.P./Maharshtra Border Section) in Barwani District in the State of Madhya Pradesh.


of land, with or without structure, from km.139.000 to km.167.500 (Khalghat – M.P./Maharshtra Border Section) on National Highway No.3 in Barwani District in the State of Madhya Pradesh.


of land, with or without structure, from km.95.300 to km.118.400 (Khalghat–M.P./Maharshtra Border Section) on National Highway No.3 in Barwani District in the State of Madhya Pradesh.


of land, with or without structure, from km.86.000 to km.95.300 (Khalghat–M.P./Maharshtra Border Section) on National Highway No.3 in Khargone District in the State of Madhya Pradesh.


58

(44) S.O. 1570 (E), dated the 26th June, 2008, amending Notification No. S.O.630 (E), dated the 18th April, 2008, to substitute certain entries in the original Notification.


of land, with or without structure, from Km. 3.500 Km. to Km. 10.00 on National Highway No. 154 including diversion at Dhaleswari point for construction of double lane road under SARDP-NE programme in the State of Assam.

(46) S.O. 1580 (E), dated the 30th June, 2008, regarding authorization of Competent Authority for acquisition of land from Km. 0.000 to Km. 63.000 on National Highway No.31C in Kokrajhar District in the State of Assam.


authorization of Competent Authority for acquisition of land from Km. 63.000 to 84.00 on National Highway No.31 in Chirang District in the State of Assam.


authorization of Competent Authority for acquisition of land from Km. 1002.00 to Km. 1006.30 on National Highway No.31 in Baksa District in the State of Assam.


authorization of Competent Authority for acquisition of land from Km. 84.000 to 93.000 on National Highway No.31 in Bongaigaon District in the State of Assam.


authorization of competent authority for acquisition of land, from Km. 961.5000 to 983.00 on National Highway No.31 in Bongaigaon District in the State of Assam.

(51) S.O. 1629 (E), dated the 7th July, 2008, amending Notification



59

(52) S.O. 1744 (E), dated the 22nd July, 2008, regarding acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km. 1041.000 to Km. 1065.000 (Nalbari-Bijni Section) on National Highway No.31 in Nalbari District in the State of Assam.

(53) S.O. 1745 (E), dated the 22nd July, 2008, regarding acquisition

of land, with or without structure, from Km. 1041.000 to Km. 1065.000 (Nalbari-Bijni Section) on National Highway No.31 in Nalbari District in the State of Assam.

(54) S.O. 1746 (E), dated the 22nd July, 2008, regarding acquisition

of land, with or without structure, from Km. 1041.000 to Km. 1052.000 (Nalbari-Bijni Section) on National Highway No.31 in Baksa District in the State of Assam.

(55) S.O. 1747 (E), dated the 22nd July, 2008, regarding

appointment of Competent Authority for acquisition of land from Km. 284.000 to Km. 351.850 on National Highway No. 44 in North Tirpura District in the State of Assam.

(56) S.O. 1748 (E), dated the 22nd July, 2008, regarding

authorization of Competent Authority for acquisition of land from Km. 351.850 to Km. 374.000 on National Highway No.44 in Dhalai District in the State of Assam.

(57) S.O. 1836 (E), dated the 24th July, 2008, regarding acquisition

of land, with or without structure, from Km. 120.000 to Km. 228.000 (Mahua-Jaipur Section) on National Highway No. 11 in Jaipur District in the State of Rajasthan.


of land, with or without structure, from km.82.500 to km.86.000 (Khalghat–M.P./Maharshtra Border Section) on National Highway No.3 in Dhar District in the State of Madhya Pradesh.




60


No. 465 (E), dated the 26th April, 2002, to substitute certain entries in the original Notification.


of land, with or without structure, from km.139.000 to km.167.500 (Khalghat–M.P./Maharshtra Border Section) on National Highway No.3 in Barwani District in the state of Madhya Pradesh.

(62) S.O. 1910 (E), dated the 1st August, 2008, regarding acquisition

of land, with or without structure, from Km. 62.290 to Km. 126.750 (Hyderabad-Vijayawada Section) on National Highway No.9 in the State of Andhra Pradesh.


of land, with or without structure, from Km. 126.750 to Km. 190.600 (Hyderabad-Vijayawada Section) on National Highway No.9 in the State of Andhra Pradesh.


of land, with or without structure, from Km 126.750 to Km. 190.600 (Hyderabad-Vijayawada Section) on National Highway No.9 in the State of Andhra Pradesh.


of land, with or without structure, from Km. 1002.00 to Km. 1006.300 (Nalbari -Bijni Section) on National Highway No.31 in Baksa District in the State of Assam.

(66) S.O. 1918 (E), dated the 1st August, 2008, regarding

authorization of Competent Authority for acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km. 983.000 to Km. 1013.000 (Nalbari-Bijni Section) on National Highway No.31 in Barpeta District in the State of Assam.


of land, with or without structure, from Km. 961.500 to Km.


61

983.000 (Nalbari-Bijni Section) on National Highway No.31 in Bongaigaon District in the State of Assam.


of land, with or without structure, from Km. 84.000 to Km. 93.000 (Nalbari-Bijni Section) on National Highway No.31 in Bongaigaon District in the State of Assam.


of land, with or without structure, from Km. 0.000 to Km. 9.100 (Baihata Chariali-Tezpur Section) on National Highway No.52 in Kamrup (Rural) District in the State of Assam.


of land, with or without structure, from Km. 9.100 to Km. 71.000 (Baihata Chariali-Tezpur Section) on National Highway No.52 in Baksa District in the State of Assam.


of land, with or without structure, from Km. 71.000 to Km. 89.150 (Baihata Chariali-Tezpur Section) on National Highway No. 52 in Udalguri District in the State of Assam.


of land, with or without structure, from Km. 89.150 to Km. 130.000 (Baihata Chariali-Tezpur Section) on National Highway No.52 in Sonipur District in the State of Assam.

(73) S.O. 2028 (E), dated the 12th August, 2008, regarding

acquisition of land, from Km. 271.500 to Km. 318.600 on National Highway No.8 in Navsari District in the State of Gujarat.

(74) S.O. 2044 (E), dated the 14th August, 2008, amending

Notification No. S.O. 815 (E), dated 4th April, 2008, to substitute certain entries in the original Notification.


acquisition of land, with or without structure, from km.239.000


62

to km.282.000 (Sambalpur–Raipur Section) on National Highway No.6 in Raipur District in the State of Chattisgarh.


acquisition of land, with or without structure, from km.20.150 to km.52.000 (Gwalior–Jhansi Section) on National Highway No.75 in Gwalior District in the State of Madhya Pradesh.


acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km. 275.000 to Km. 304.170 (Tirupati to Andhra Pradesh/Tamil Nadu Border section) on National Highway No. 205 in the State of Andhra Pradesh.


acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km. 304.170 to Km. 341.600 (Tirupati to Andhra Pradesh/Tamil Nadu Border Section) on National Highway No. 205 in the State of Andhra Pradesh.

(79) S.O. 2129 (E), dated the 28th August, 2008, regarding acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km 126.750 to Km. 190.600 (Hyderabad-Vijayawada Section) on National Highway No.9 in the State of Andhra Pradesh.

(80) S.O. 2153 (E), dated the 3rd September, 2008, regarding

acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km.429.000 to Km. 447.000 (Nagpur-Hyderabad Section) on National Highway No.7 in the State of Andhra Pradesh.


acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km. 218.400 to Km. 263.400 (Bharuch-Surat Section) on National Highway No.8 in Surat District in the State of Gujarat.

(82) S.O. 2181 (E), dated the 10th September, 2008, regarding

authorization of Competent Authority for building, maintenance, management and operation (Gurgaon-Jaipur Section) on National Highway No. 8 in the State of Rajasthan.


63

(83) S.O. 2196 (E), dated the 15th September, 2008, regarding acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km. 120.000 to Km. 228.000 (Mahua-Jaipur Section) on National Highway No.11 in Jaipur District in the State of Rajasthan.


acquisition of land, with or without structure, on National Highway No. 9 from Km. 144.400 to 249.000 (Pune-Solapur Section) in Solapur District in the State of Maharashtra.


acquisition of land, with or without structure, from km.60.000 to km.61.000 (Dholpur–Morena Section) on National Highway No.3 in Morena District in the State of Madhya Pradesh.


acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km. 982.000 to Km. 1041.000 (Nalbari-Bijni Section) on National Highway No. 31 in Barpeta District in the State of Assam.

(87) S.O. 2246 (E), dated the 22nd September, 2008, regarding

acquisition of land from Km. 318.600 to Km. 381.600 on National Highway No. 8 in Valsad District in the State of Gujarat.


acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km. 35.000 to Km. 38.700 on National Highway No. 154 for construction of double lane road under SARDP-NE programme in the State of Assam.


acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km. 40.000 to Km. 66.000 (Maibong -Lumding Section) on National Highway No. 54 in Nagaon District in the State of Assam.


acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km. 182.200 to Km. 248.875 [Tamil Nadu/Kerala Border (Walayar-Thrissur


64

Section)] on National Highway No. 47 in the State of Kerala (91) S.O. 2297 (E), dated the 26th September, 2008, amending

Notification No. 1096 (E), dated the 4th August, 2005, to substitute certain entries in the original Notification.

(92) S.O. 2298 (E), dated the 26th September, 2008, amending

Notification No. 1096 (E), dated the 4th August, 2005, to substitute certain entries in the original Notification.

(93) S.O. 2299 (E), dated the 26th September, 2008, amending

Notification No. S.O. 815 (E), dated the 25th May, 2007, omitting certain entries in the original Notification.


acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km. 173.350 to Km. 218.400 (Vadodara-Surat Section) on National Highway No.8 in Bharuch District in the State of Gujarat.


acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km. 108.000 to Km. 173.350 (Vadodara-Surat Section) on National Highway No.8 in Vododara District in the State of Gujarat.

(96) S.O. 2403 (E), dated the 3rd October, 2008, regarding

acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Design Chainage 0.000 to 14.132 and 20.032 to 46.479 (Indore-Khalghat Section) on National Highway No. 3 in District Indore in the State of Madhya Pradesh.

(97) S.O. 2426 (E), dated the 1st October, 2008, regarding

acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km. 285.633 to Km. 308.000 (Nagpur-Hyderabad Section) on National Highway No.7 in the State of Andhra Pradesh.


acquisition of land, with or without structure, from Km. 259.778 to Km. 285.633 (Nagpur-Hyderabad Section) on National Highway No.7 in the State of Andhra Pradesh.


65

(99) S.O. 2440 (E), dated the 13th October, 2008, regarding

acquisition of land, from Km. 263.400 to Km. 271.500 on National Highway No.8 in Surat District in the State of Gujarat.

(100) S.O. 2468 (E), dated the 17th October, 2008, publishing

Corrigendum to Notification No. 1401 (E), dated the 9th June, 2008.

(101) S.O. 2477 (E), dated the 17th October, 2008, regarding rate of

fee to be recovered from the users of stretch from Km. 773.000 to 781.000 on National Highway No.4 in Khambatki Ghat between Pune and Satara in the State of Maharashtra.


entrustment of 5 km. stretch of NH-71B as situated in Rajasthan to PWD, Rajasthan for maintenance and development.

(103) S.O. 2601 (E), dated the 5th November, 2008, regarding

acquisition of land, with or without structure, from km. 52.000 to km. 84.800 (Gwalior-Jhansi Section) on National Highway No.75 in Datia District in the State of Madhya Pradesh.

(104) S.O. 2663 (E), dated the 14th November, 2008, regarding

declaration of new National Highways in the States of Tamil Nadu and West Bengal.

(105) S.O. 2834 (E), dated the 2nd December, 2008, regarding

declaration of new National Highways in the State of Himachal Pradesh.

II. A copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following

Notifications of the Ministry of Shipping, Road Transport & Highways (Department of Road Transport and Highways), under section 37 of the National Highways Authority of India Act, 1988:- (i) S.O. 795 (E), dated the 1st April, 2008, regarding entrustment


66

of National Highway stretch from km. 84.700 to km. 167.500 in the State of Madhya Pradesh under NHDP Phase-III to NHAI along with delay statement.

(ii) S.O. 797 (E), dated the 1st April, 2008, regarding entrustment of National Highway stretch from km. 0.000 to km. 3.520 in the Union Territory of Puducherry along with delay statement.

SHRI PRITHVIRAJ CHAVAN: Sir, I lay on the Table :-

I. A copy (in English and Hindi) of the Ministry of Personnel, Public

Grievances & Pensions (Department of Personnel and Training)

Notification G.S.R. 726 (E), dated the 8th October, 2008, publishing

amendment in the Second Schedule to the Right to Information Act, 2005,

under sub-section (1) of section 29 of the Right to Information Act, 2005.

II. A copy (in English and Hindi) of the Ministry of Personnel, Public

Grievances and Pension (Department of Personnel and Training)

Notification G.S.R 74, dated the 6th to 12th May, 2007, publishing the

Central Administrative Tribunal (Senior Principal Private Secretary)

Recruitment Rules, 2007, under sub-section (1) of section 37of the

Administrative Tribunals Act, 1985 along with delay statement.

III. A copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following papers, under sub-section (1) of section 619A of the Companies Act, 1956:—

(i)(a) Annual Report and Accounts of the Antrix Corporation Limited

(ACL), Bangalore, for the year 2007-2008, together with the





67

(ii)(a) Twenty-first Annual Report and Accounts of the Nuclear Power

Corporation of India Limited, Mumbai, for the year 2007-2008,

together with the Auditor's Report on the Accounts and the

comments of the Comptroller and Auditor General of India

thereon.


(iii)(a) Fifty-eighth Annual Report and Accounts of the Indian Rare

Earths Limited, Mumbai, for the year 2007-2008, together with

the Auditor's Report on the Accounts and the comments of the



(iv)(a) Fifth Annual Report and Accounts of the Bharatiya Nabhikiya

Vidyut Nigam Limited, Chennai, for the year 2007-2008, together

with the Auditor's Report on the Accounts and the comments of

the Comptroller and Auditor General of India thereon.


(v)(a) Forty-first Annual Report and Accounts of the Electronics

Corporation of India Limited, Hyderabad, for the year

2007-2008, together with the Auditor's Report on the Accounts

and the comments of the Comptroller and Auditor General of

India thereon.


(vi)(a) Forty-first Annual Report and Accounts of the Uranium


68

Corporation of India Limited (UCIL), Singhbhum, Jharkhand, for

the year 2007-2008, together with the Auditor's Report on the

Accounts and the comments of the Comptroller and Auditor

General of India thereon.


IV. A copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following papers:—

(i)(a) Annual Report and Accounts of the Physical Research

Laboratory (PRL), Ahmedabad, for the year 2007-2008,



(ii)(a) Annual Report and Accounts of the Semi-Conductor Laboratory

(SCL), SAS Nagar, Chandigarh, for the year 2007-2008,



(iii)(a) Annual Report and Accounts of the National Atmospheric

Research Laboratory (NARL), Gadanki, Andhra Pradesh for


Accounts.


(iv)(a) Annual Report and Accounts of the North Eastern Space

Applications Centre (NE-SAC), Umiam, Meghalaya, for the year

2007-2008, together with the Auditor's Report on the Accounts.

(b)

Statement by Government accepting the above Report.


69

(v)(a) Annual Report and Accounts of the National Remote Sensing

Agency (NRSA), Hyderabad, for the year 2007-2008, together

with the Auditor's Report on the Accounts.


(vi)(a) Annual Report and Accounts of the Indian Institute of Space

Science and Technology (IIST), Thiruvananthapuram, for the


Accounts.


(vii) (a) Annual Report and Accounts of the Saha Institute of

Nuclear Physics, Kolkata, for the year 2007-2008, together with



(viii)(a) Annual Report and Accounts of the Institute of Mathematical

Sciences, Chennai, for the year 2007-2008, together with the



(ix)(a) Annual Report and Accounts of the Harish-Chandra Research

Institute (HRI), Allahabad, for the year 2007-2008, together with



(x) (a) Annual Report of the Tata Memorial Centre, Mumbai, for the



70

Accounts.


(xi) (a) Annual Report of the Institute of Physics, Bhubaneswar, for the

year 2007-2008.

(b) Annual Accounts of the Institute of Physics, Bhubaneswar, for the


Accounts.

(c) Statement by Government accepting the above Reports.

(xii)(a) Annual Report and Accounts of the Institute for Plasma

Research, Gandhinagar, for the year 2007-2008, together with



(xiii) (a) Annual Report and Accounts of the Atomic Energy Education

Society, Mumbai, for the year 2007-2008, together with the



(xiv) (a) Annual Report and Accounts of the Civil Services Officers

Institute (CSOI), New Delhi, for the year 2007-2008, together with



(xv)

(a) Annual Report and Accounts of the Civil Services Society

(Sanskriti School) (CSS), New Delhi, for the year 2007-2008,



71

(b) Statement by Government accepting the above report.

(xvi) (a) Annual Report and Accounts of the Grih Kalyan Kendra (GKK),

New Delhi, for the year 2007-2008, together with the Auditor's

Report on the Accounts.

(b) Statement by Government accepting the above report.

8. SHRI S. REGUPATHY to lay on the Table a copy each (in English

and Hindi) of the following papers:—

(a) Annual Report and Accounts of the Indian Plywood Industries Research and Training Institute (IPIRTI), Bangalore, for the year 2007-2008, together with the Auditor's Report on the Accounts.

(b) Review by Government on the working of the above Institute.

SHRI NAMO NARAIN MEENA: Sir, I lay on the Table :-

I. A copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following Notifications of the Ministry of Environment and Forests, under section 26 of the Environment (Protection) Act, 1986:-


72

(1) S.O. 417 (E), dated the 3rd March, 2008, regarding constitution

of State Level Environment Impact Assessment Authority (SEIAA) and State Level Expert Appraisal Committee (SEAC) for the State of Tamil Nadu.

(2) S.O. 737 (E), dated the 27th March, 2008, regarding

constitution of State Level Environment Impact Assessment Authority (SEIAA)and State Level Expert Appraisal Committee (SEAC) for the State of Arunanchal Pradesh.

(3) S.O. 280 (E), dated the 11th April, 2008, publishing the

Environment (Protection) Second Amendment Rules, 2008. (4) S.O. 898 (E), dated the 22nd April, 2008, regarding constitution

of State Level Environment Impact Assessment Authority (SEIAA) and State Level Expert Appraisal Committee (SEAC) for the State of Maharashtra.

(5) S.O. 899 (E), dated the 22nd April, 2008, regarding constitution

of State Level Environment Impact Assessment Authority (SEIAA) and State Level Expert Appraisal Committee (SEAC) for the State of Haryana.

(6) S.O. 1539 (E), dated the 24th June, 2008, amending

Notification No. S.O. 489 (E), dated the 30th April 2003, substituting certain entries in the original Notification.

(7) S.O. 768 (E), dated the 4th July, 2008, publishing the

Environment Relief Fund (ERF) Scheme, 2008, under the Public Liability Insurance Act, 1991.

(8) S.O. 1634 (E), dated the 8th July, 2008, regarding constitution

of State Level Environment Impact Assessment Authority (SEIAA) and State Level Expert Appraisal Committee (SEAC) for the State of Sikkim.

(9) G.S.R. 1720 (E), dated the 18th July, 2008, seeking

amendment in the original Notification No. S.O. 93 (E), dated


73

the 29th January, 1998, in order to extend the tenure of the Environment Pollution (Prevention and Control) Authority (CEPCA).

(10) S.O. 1887 (E), dated the 30th July, 2008, regarding

constitution of State Level Environment Impact Assessment Authority (SEIAA)and State Level Expert Appraisal Committee (SEAC) for the state of Rajasthan.

(11) S.O. 1888 (E), dated 30th July, 2008, regarding constitution of

State Level Environment Impact Assessment Authority (SEIAA) and State Level Expert Appraisal Committee (SEAC) for the state of Delhi.

II. A copy (in English and Hindi) of the Ministry of Environment and Forests Notification S.O. 1894 (E), dated the 31st July, 2008, recognizing certain laboratories as Environmental Laboratories, under section 12 and section 13 of the Environment (Protection) Act, 1986.

III. A copy (in English and Hindi) of the Ministry of Environment and Forests Notification S.O. 2244 (E), dated the 22nd September, 2007, regarding constitution of State Level Environment Impact Assessment Authority (SEIAA) and State Level Expert Appraisal Committee (SEAC) for the State of Uttrakhand.

IV. A copy (in English and Hindi) of the Ministry of Environment and Forests Notification G.S.R. 752 (E), dated the 24th October, 2008, regarding the Environment (Protection) Eighth Amendment Rules, 2008.

V. A copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following papers:—

(a) Annual Report and Accounts of the Salim Ali Centre for

Ornithology and Natural History (SACON), Coimbatore, for the


Accounts.

(b) Review by Government on the working of the above Centre.


74

10. SHRI ANAND SHARMA to lay on the Table, a copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following papers, under sub-section (1) of section 619A of the Companies Act, 1956:—

(a) Thirteenth Annual Report and Accounts of the Broadcast

Engineering Consultants India Limited (BECIL), NOIDA, for


Accounts and the comments of the Comptroller and Auditor

General of India thereon.


SHRI V. NARAYANSAMY: Sir, I lay on the Table, the following

statements (in English and Hindi) showing the action taken by

Government on the various assurances, promises and undertakings

given by Ministers during Sessions shown against each:—

1. Statement No. XXVIII Hundred and Ninety-third Session, 2001 2. Statement No. XXIV Hundred and Seventh Session, 2002 3. Statement No. XX Hundred and Ninety-ninth Session, 2003 4. Statement No. XVII Two Hundred and Second Session, 20045. Statement No. XV Two Hundred and Third Session, 2004 6. Statement No. XV Two Hundred and Fourth Session, 2005 7. Statement No. XII Two Hundred and Fifth Session, 2005 8. Statement No. XII Two Hundred and Sixth Session, 2005 9. Statement No. XI Two Hundred and Seventh Session, 2006

10. Statement No. IX Two Hundred and Eighth Session, 2006 11. Statement No. VIII Two Hundred and Ninth Session, 2006 12. Statement No. VII Two Hundred and Tenth Session, 2007 13. Statement No. VI Two Hundred and Eleventh Session, 2007


75

14. Statement No. IV Two Hundred and Twelfth Session, 2007 15. Statement No. III Two Hundred and Thirteenth Session, 2008

SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA: Sir, I lay on the Table, a copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following papers, under sub-section (1) of section 619A of the Companies Act, 1956:

(i)(a) Fifty-second Annual Report and Accounts of the Neyveli Lignite

Corporation Limited, Chennai, for the year 2007-2008, together

with the Auditor's Report on the Accounts and the comments of

the Comptroller and Auditor General of India thereon.


(ii) (a)

Thirty-fifth Annual Report and Accounts of the Coal India

Limited (Vol. I & II), Kolkata, for the year 2007-2008, together

with the Auditor's Report on the Accounts and the comments

of the Comptroller and Auditor General of India thereon.


ÁÖß •µÖÖê×ŸÖ¸üÖ×¤üŸµÖ ´ÖÖ¬Ö¾Ö¸üÖ¾Ö ØÃÖ×¬ÖµÖÖ: ´ÖÆüÖÓê¤üµÖ, ´Öï ×®Ö´®Ö×»Ö×ÜÖŸÖ ¯Ö¡Ö ÃÖ³ÖÖ ¯Ö™ü»Ö ¯Ö¸ü ¸üÜÖŸÖÖ

ÆæÓü:-

I. A copy (in English and Hindi) of the Ministry of Communications

and Information Technology Notification G.S.R 564 (E), dated the 30th

July, 2008, publishing the Use of low Power Equipment in the

Frequency Band 865-867 MHz for (RFID) Radio Frequency Identification

Devices (Exemption from Licensing Requirement) Amendment Rules,


76

2008, under sub-section (5) of section 7 of the Indian Telegraph Act,

1885 and sub-section (4) of section 10 of the Indian Wireless

Telegraphy Act, 1933.

II. A copy (in English and Hindi) of the Ministry of

Communications and Information Technology Notification No. 104-

15/2008-MN, dated the 21st October, 2008, publishing the Telecom

Unsolicited Commercial Communications (Second Amendment)

Regulations, 2008, under section 37 of the Telecom Regulatory

Authority of India Act, 1997.

III. A copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following papers, under sub-section (1) of section 619A of the Companies Act, 1956:—

(a) Eighth Annual Report and Accounts of the Bharat Sanchar

Nigam Limited (BSNL), New Delhi, for the year 2007-2008,

together with the Auditor's Report on the Accounts and the

comments of the Comptroller and Auditor General of India

thereon.


IV. A copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following papers:—

(i)(a) Annual Report and Accounts of the Society for Applied Microwave Electronics Engineering and Research (SAMEER), Mumbai, for the year 2007-2008, together with the Auditor's Report on the Accounts.

(b) Review by Government on the working of the above Society.

(ii)(a) Thirteenth Annual Report and Accounts of the DOEACC Society, New Delhi, for the year 2007-2008, together with the Auditor's Report on the Accounts.


77


(iii)(a) Annual Report and Accounts of the Society for the Software Technology Parks of India (STPI), New Delhi, for the year 2007-2008, together with the Auditor's Report on the Accounts.


(Ends)


78

MESSAGES FROM LOK SABHA

(i) THE NATIONAL INVESTIGATION AGENCY BILL, 2008 (ii) THE UNLAWFUL ACTIVITIES (PREVENTION) AMENDMENT BILL, 2008

SECRETARY-GENERAL: Sir, I have to report to the House the

following message received from the Lok Sabha, signed by the

Secretary-General, Lok Sabha:

(i)

"In accordance with the provisions of rule 96 of the Rules of

Procedure and Conduct of Business in Lok Sabha, I am directed

to enclose the National Investigation Agency Bill, 2008, as passed

by the Lok Sabha at its sitting held on 17th December, 2008."

(ii)

"In accordance with the provisions of rule 96 of the Rules of

Procedure and Conduct of Business in Lok Sabha, I am directed

to enclose the Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Amendment Bill,

2008, as passed by the Lok Sabha at its sitting held on 17th

December, 2008."

Sir, I lay a copy of each the Bills on the Table.

(Ends)

REPORT ON THE INDIAN PARLIAMENTARY PARTICIPATION AT INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE.

SECRETARY-GENERAL: Sir, I lay on the Table a copy (in English and Hindi) of the Report on the participation of the Indian Parliamentary Delegation at the 119th Assembly of the Inter-Parliamentary Union (IPU) held in Geneva (Switzerland) from 11 to 16 October, 2008. (Ends)


79

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT ASSURANCES

SHRI A. VIJAYARAGHAVAN (KERALA): Sir, I present the Sixty-

Second Report (in English and Hindi) of the Committee on Government

Assurances. (Ends)

REPORTS OF THE COMMITTEE ON PAPERS LAID ON THE TABLE

SHRIMATI SYEDA ANWARA TAIMUR (ASSAM) : I present a copy each

(in English & Hindi) of the following Reports of the Committee on Papers

Laid on the Table: -

(i) One Hundred and sixteenth Report regarding laying of Government

Notifications/ Orders and Annual Reports and Audited Accounts of

Government Companies/Organisations laid by the various

Ministries/Departments on the Table of the House during the 213th

Session of Rajya Sabha, and

(ii) One Hundred and seventeenth Report regarding laying of Annual

Reports and Audited Accounts of various State Agro Industries

Corporations (SAICs). (Ends)

REPORT OF THE DEPARTMENT RELATED PARLIAMENTARY STANDING COMMITTEE ON HEALTH AND FAMILY WELFARE

ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü (ˆ¢Ö¸ü ¯ÖÏ¤êü¿Ö) : ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ´Öï Ã®ÖÖŸÖÛúÖê¢Ö¸ü †ÖµÖãÙ¾ÖóÖÖ®Ö ×¿ÖõÖÖ †Öî¸ü †®ÖãÃÖÓ¬ÖÖ®Ö

ÃÖÓÃ£ÖÖ®Ö, “ÖÓ›üßÝÖœÍü (ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê¬Ö®Ö) ×¾Ö¬ÖêµÖÛú, 2008 Ûêú ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ¬Ö ´Öë ×¾Ö³ÖÖÝÖ-ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ×¬ÖŸÖ Ã¾ÖÖÃ£µÖ †Öî¸ü ¯Ö×¸ü¾ÖÖ¸ü

Ûú»µÖÖÞÖ ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ¬Öß ÃÖÓÃÖ¤üßµÖ Ã£ÖÖµÖß ÃÖ×´Ö×ŸÖ ÛúÖ ŸÖïŸÖßÃÖ¾ÖÖÓ ¯ÖÏ×ŸÖ¾Öê¤ü®Ö (†ÓÝÖÏê•Öß ŸÖ£ÖÖ ×Æü®¤üß ´Öë) ¯ÖÏÃŸÖãŸÖ

Ûú¸üŸÖÖ ÆæÓü… (ÃÖ´ÖÖ¯ŸÖ)


80

EVIDENCE TENDERED BEFORE THE DEPARTMENT RELATED PARLIAMENTARY STANDING COMMITTEE ON HEALTH AND FAMILY

WELFARE

ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü (ˆ¢Ö¸ü ¯ÖÏ¤êü¿Ö) : ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ´Öï Ã®ÖÖŸÖÛúÖê¢Ö¸ü †ÖµÖãÙ¾ÖóÖÖ®Ö ×¿ÖõÖÖ †Öî¸ü †®ÖãÃÖÓ¬ÖÖ®Ö

ÃÖÓÃ£ÖÖ®Ö, “ÖÓ›üßÝÖœÍü (ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê¬Ö®Ö) ×¾Ö¬ÖêµÖÛú, 2008 Ûêú ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ¬Ö ´Öë ÃÖ×´Ö×ŸÖ Ûêú ÃÖ´ÖõÖ ×¤ü‹ ÝÖ‹ ÃÖÖõµÖ Ûúß

‹Ûú ¯ÖÏ×ŸÖ ÃÖ³ÖÖ ¯Ö™ü»Ö ¯Ö¸ü ¸üÜÖŸÖÖ ÆæÓü…

(ÃÖ´ÖÖ¯ŸÖ)

(Followed by kls/1o)

KLS/1O-12.05

REPORTS OF THE DEPARTMENT RELATED PARLIAMENTARY STANDING COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE

SHRIMATI MOHSINA KIDWAI (UTTAR PRADESH): Sir, I lay on the

Table a copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following Reports of the

Department-related Parliamentary Standing Committee on Agriculture:

(i) Forty-second Report (Fourteenth Lok Sabha) on Action Taken by

the Government on the Observations/Recommendations contained

in their Thirty-seventh Report on Demands for Grants (2008-2009)

relating to the Department of Agriculture and Cooperation (Ministry

of Agriculture);

(ii) Forty-third Report (Fourteenth Lok Sabha) on Action Taken by the

Government on the Observations/Recommendations contained in

their Thirty-eighth Report on Demands for Grants (2008-2009)

relating to the Department of Agricultural Research and Education

(Ministry of Agriculture);


81

(iii) Forty-fourth Report (Fourteenth Lok Sabha) on Action Taken by

the Government on the Observations/Recommendations contained

in their Thirty-ninth Report on Demands for Grants (2008-2009)

relating to the Department of Animal Husbandry, Dairying and

Fisheries (Ministry of Agriculture); and

(iv) Forty-fifth Report (Fourteenth Lok Sabha) on Action Taken by the

Government on the Observations/Recommendations contained in

their Fortieth Report on Demands for Grants (2008-2009) relating

to the Ministry of Food Processing Industries. (Ends)

REPORT OF THE DEPARTMENT RELATED PARLIAMENTARY STANDING COMMITTEE ON DEFENCE

ÁÖß´ÖŸÖß ×¾Ö¯»Ö¾Ö šüÖÛãú¸ü (×Æü´ÖÖ“Ö»Ö ¯ÖÏ¤êü¿Ö) : ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ´Öï ÛúÖ¸ü×ÝÖ»Ö ÃÖ´ÖßõÖÖ ÃÖ×´Ö×ŸÖ ¯ÖÏ×ŸÖ¾Öê¤ü®Ö ¸üõÖÖ

¯ÖÏ²ÖÓ¬Ö®Ö Ûêú ×¾Ö¿ÖêÂÖ ÃÖÓ¤ü³ÖÔ Ûêú †®ÖãÃÖ¸üÞÖ ´Öë ¸üÖÂ™ÒüßµÖ ÃÖã¸üõÖÖ ¯ÖÏÞÖÖ»Öß ÃÖã¬ÖÖ¸ü Ûêú ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ¬Ö ´Öë ´ÖÓ×¡ÖÃÖ´ÖæÆü

(•Öß†Öê‹´Ö‹ÃÖ) Ûêú ¯ÖÏ×ŸÖ¾Öê¤ü®Ö Ûêú ÛúÖµÖÖÔ®¾ÖµÖ®Ö Ûúß ×Ã£Ö×ŸÖ Ûúß ÃÖ´ÖßõÖÖ Ûêú ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ¬Ö ´Öë ÃÖ×´Ö×ŸÖ Ûêú

²ÖÖ‡ÔÃÖ¾Öë ¯ÖÏ×ŸÖ¾Öê¤ü®Ö ´Öë †ÓŸÖÙ¾ÖÂ™ü ×ÃÖ±úÖ×¸ü¿ÖÖë/ÃÖ´Öã×ŒŸÖµÖÖë ¯Ö¸ü ÃÖ¸üÛúÖ¸ü «üÖ¸üÖ Ûúß ÝÖ‡Ô ÛúÖ¸Ôü¾ÖÖ‡Ô ÃÖê

ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ×¬ÖŸÖ ÃÖ×´Ö×ŸÖ (“ÖÖî¤üÆü¾Öà »ÖÖêÛú ÃÖ³ÖÖ) Ûêú ²Ö¢ÖßÃÖ¾Öë ¯ÖÏ×ŸÖ¾Öê¤ü®Ö Ûúß ‹Ûú ¯ÖÏ×ŸÖ (†ÓÝÖÏê•ÖÌß ŸÖ£ÖÖ ×Æü®¤üß

´Öë) ÃÖ³ÖÖ ¯Ö™ü»Ö ¯Ö¸ü ¸üÜÖŸÖß ÆæÓü… (ÃÖ´ÖÖ¯ŸÖ)

STATEMENTS OF THE DEPARTMENT RELATED PARLIAMENTARY STANDING COMMITTEE ON DEFENCE

ÁÖß´ÖŸÖß ×¾Ö¯»Ö¾Ö šüÖÛãú¸ü (×Æü´ÖÖ“Ö»Ö ¯ÖÏ¤êü¿Ö) : ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ´Öï ×¾Ö³ÖÖÝÖ ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ×¬ÖŸÖ ¸üõÖÖ ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ¬Öß ÃÖÓÃÖ¤üßµÖ

Ã£ÖÖµÖß ÃÖ×´Ö×ŸÖ Ûêú †¬µÖÖµÖ 1 †Öî¸ü 5 ´Öë †ÓŸÖÙ¾ÖÂ™ü ×ÃÖ±úÖ×¸ü¿ÖÖë ¯Ö¸ü ÃÖ¸üÛúÖ¸ü «üÖ¸üÖ Ûúß ÝÖ‡Ô ÛúÖ¸Ôü¾ÖÖ‡Ô

ÛúÖê ¤ü¿ÖÖÔ®Öê ¾ÖÖ»Öê ×¾Ö¾Ö¸üÞÖÖë Ûúß ‹Ûú-‹Ûú ¯ÖÏ×ŸÖ (†ÓÝÖÏê•Öß ŸÖ£ÖÖ ×Æü®¤üß ´Öë) ÃÖ³ÖÖ ¯Ö™ü»Ö ¯Ö¸ü ¸üÜÖŸÖß ÆæÓü :


82

(12) (i) Fifteenth Action Taken Report of the Committee (Fourteenth

Lok Sabha) on Demands for Grants (2006-2007) relating to the

Ministry of Defence;

(13) (ii) Nineteenth Action Taken Report of the Committee (Fourteenth

Lok Sabha) on Procurement Policy and Procedure;

(14) (iii) Twenty-first Action Taken Report of the Committee

(Fourteenth Lok Sabha) on Defence Public Sector Undertakings;

(15) (iv) Twenty-third Action Taken Report of the Committee

(Fourteenth Lok Sabha) on Review of Medical Services and

Education in the Defence Sector;

(16) (v) Twenty-fourth Action Taken Report of the Committee

(Fourteenth Lok Sabha) on “A Critical Review of Rehabilitation of

Displaced Persons;

(17) (vi) Twenty-fifth Action Taken Report of the Committee

(Fourteenth Lok Sabha) on Defence Research and Development

Organization;

(18) (vii) Twenty-seventh Action Taken Report of the Committee

(Fourteenth Lok Sabha) on “In-depth Study and Critical Review of

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL)”; and

(19) (vii) Twenty-eighth Action Taken Report of the Committee

(Fourteenth Lok Sabha) on In-depth Study and Critical Review of

Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL). (Ends)


83

REPORTS OF THE DEPARTMENT RELATED PARLIAMENTARY STANDING COMMITTEE ON EXTERNAL AFFAIRS

›üÖ0 ¸üÖ´Ö ¯ÖÏÛúÖ¿Ö (Æü×¸üµÖÖÞÖÖ) : ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ´Öï ×¾Ö³ÖÖÝÖ ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ×¬ÖŸÖ ×¾Ö¤êü¿Ö ´ÖÖ´Ö»ÖÖë ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ¬Öß ÃÖÓÃÖ¤üßµÖ

Ã£ÖÖµÖß ÃÖ×´Ö×ŸÖ Ûêú ×®Ö´®Ö×»Ö×ÜÖŸÖ ¯ÖÏ×ŸÖ¾Öê¤ü®ÖÖë Ûúß ‹Ûú ¯ÖÏ×ŸÖ (†ÓÝÖÏê•ÖÌß ŸÖ£ÖÖ ×Æü®¤üß ´Öë) ÃÖ³ÖÖ ¯Ö™ü»Ö ¯Ö¸ü

¸üÜÖŸÖÖ ÆæÓü

(106) (i) Twenty-second Report (Fourteenth Lok Sabha) on Action Taken

by the Government on the recommendations contained in their

Twentieth Report on Demands for Grants (2008-2009) relating to

the Ministry of External Affairs; and

(107) (ii) Twenty-third Report (Fourteenth Lok Sabha) on Action Taken by

the Government on the recommendations contained in their

Twenty-first Report on Demands for Grants (2008-2009) relating to

the Ministry of Overseas Indian Affairs. (Ends)

STATEMENTS OF THE DEPARTMENT RELATED PARLIAMENTARY

STANDING COMMITTEE ON EXTERNAL AFFAIRS

›üÖ0 ¸üÖ´Ö ¯ÖÏÛúÖ¿Ö (Æü×¸üµÖÖÞÖÖ) : ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ´Öï ¯ÖÏ¾ÖÖÃÖß ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖßµÖÖë ÃÖê ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ×¬ÖŸÖ ´Öã§êü, ×¾Ö¤êü¿Ö ´ÖÓ¡ÖÖ»ÖµÖ

†Öî¸ü ¯ÖÏ¾ÖÖÃÖß ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖßµÖ ÛúÖµÖÔ ´ÖÓ¡ÖÖ»ÖµÖ Ûúß †®Öã¤üÖ®Ö ´ÖÖÓÝÖÖë (2007-2008) Ûêú ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ¬Ö ´Öë ÃÖ×´Ö×ŸÖ Ûêú

ÛÎú´Ö¿Ö: ÃÖ¡ÖÆü¾Öë, †šüÖ¸üÆü¾Öë †Öî¸ü ˆ®®ÖßÃÖ¾Öë Ûúß ÝÖ‡Ô ÛúÖ¸Ôü¾ÖÖ‡Ô ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ¬Öß ¯ÖÏ×ŸÖ¾Öê¤ü®ÖÖë Ûêú †¬µÖÖµÖ - 1

¯Ö¸ü ÃÖ¸üÛúÖ¸ü «üÖ¸üÖ Ûúß ÝÖ‡Ô †Öî¸ü ÛúÖ¸Ôü¾ÖÖ‡Ô ÛúÖê ¤ü¿ÖÖÔ®Öê ¾ÖÖ»Öê ×¾Ö³ÖÖÝÖ ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ×¬ÖŸÖ ×¾Ö¤êü¿Ö ´ÖÖ´Ö»ÖÖë ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ¬Öß

ÃÖÓÃÖ¤üßµÖ Ã£ÖÖµÖß ÃÖ×´Ö×ŸÖ Ûêú ×¾Ö¾Ö¸üÞÖÖë Ûúß ‹Ûú-‹Ûú ¯ÖÏ×ŸÖ (†ÓÝÖÏê•ÖÌß ŸÖ£ÖÖ ×Æü®¤üß ´Öë) ÃÖ³ÖÖ ¯Ö™ü»Ö ¯Ö¸ü

¸üÜÖŸÖÖ ÆæÓü… (ÃÖ´ÖÖ¯ŸÖ)


84

REPORTS OF THE DEPARTMENT RELATED PARLIAMENTARY STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA (JHARKHAND): Sir, I lay on the Table a

copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following Reports of the

Department-related Parliamentary Standing Committee on Finance:-

(108) (i) Seventy-third Action Taken Report (Fourteenth Lok Sabha) on

the recommendations/observations contained in their Sixty-seventh

Report on Demands for Grants (2008-2009) relating to the

Departments of Economic Affairs, Expenditure, Financial Services

and Disinvestment (Ministry of Finance);

(109) (ii) Seventy-fourth Action Taken Report (Fourteenth Lok Sabha) on

the recommendations/observations contained in their Sixty-eighth

Report on Demands for Grants (2008-2009) relating to the

Department of Revenue (Ministry of Finance);

(110) (iii) Seventy-fifth Action Taken Report (Fourteenth Lok Sabha) on

the recommendations/observations contained in their Sixty-ninth

Report on Demands for Grants (2008-2009) relating to the Ministry

of Planning;

(111) (iv) Seventy-sixth Action Taken Report (Fourteenth Lok Sabha) on

the recommendations/observations contained in their Seventieth

Report on Demands for Grants (2008-2009) relating to the Ministry

of Statistics and Programme Implementation;

(112) (v) Seventy-seventh Action Taken Report (Fourteenth Lok Sabha)

on the recommendations/observations contained in their Seventy-


85

first Report on Demands for Grants (2008-2009) relating to the

Ministry of Corporate Affairs;

(113) (vi)Seventy-eighth Report (Fourteenth Lok Sabha) on “Flow of

Credit to Agriculture Sector” relating to the Department of

Financial Service (Ministry of Finance); and

(vii) Seventy-ninth Report (Fourteenth Lok Sabha) on “Counterfeit

currency notes in circulation” relating to the Department of

Economic Affairs and Financial Services (Ministry of Finance).

(Ends)

REPORTS OF THE DEPARTMENT RELATED PARLIAMENTARY STANDING COMMITTEE ON PETROLEUM AND NATURAL GAS

SHRI TAPAN KUMAR SEN(WEST BENGAL): Sir, I lay on the Table a

copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following Reports of the

Department-related Parliamentary Standing Committee on Petroleum and

Natural Gas:-

(i) Twenty-third Report on Oil Refineries A Critique; and

(ii) Twenty-fourth Report on Action Taken by the Government on the

recommendations contained in their Sixteenth Report (Fourteenth

Lok Sabha) on Supply, Distribution and Marketing of Natural Gas

including CNG and LNG. (Ends)


86

STATEMENTS OF THE COMMITTEE ON THE WELFARE OF SCHEDULED CASTES AND SCHEDULED TRIBES

ÁÖß ÛéúÂÞÖ »ÖÖ»Ö ²ÖÖ»´Öß×Ûú (¸üÖ•ÖÃ£ÖÖ®Ö) : ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ´Öï Ûêú®¦üßµÖ ˆŸ¯ÖÖ¤ü †Öî¸ü ÃÖß´ÖÖ ¿Öã»Ûú ²ÖÖê›Ôü

(ÃÖß.²Öß.‡Ô.ÃÖß.) ´Öë †®ÖãÃÖæ×“ÖŸÖ •ÖÖ×ŸÖµÖÖë †Öî¸ü †®ÖãÃÖæ×“ÖŸÖ •Ö®Ö•ÖÖ×ŸÖµÖÖë ÛúÖ †Ö¸üõÖÞÖ †Öî¸ü ¸üÖê•ÖÝÖÖ¸ü Ûêú

ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ¬Ö ´Öë ÃÖ×´Ö×ŸÖ Ûêú ”û²²ÖßÃÖ¾Öë ¯ÖÏ×ŸÖ¾Öê¤ü®Ö (“ÖÖî¤üÆü¾Öà »ÖÖêÛú ÃÖ³ÖÖ) Ûêú †¬µÖÖµÖ 1 ´Öë †ÓŸÖÙ¾ÖÂ™ü

×ÃÖ±úÖ×¸ü¿ÖÖë/ÃÖ´Öã×ŒŸÖµÖÖë ¯Ö¸ü ÃÖ¸üÛúÖ¸ü «üÖ¸üÖ †Ó×ŸÖ´Ö ÛúÖ¸Ôü¾ÖÖ‡Ô ÛúÖê ¤ü¿ÖÖÔ®Öê ¾ÖÖ»Öê ×¾Ö¾Ö¸üÞÖ Ûúß ‹Ûú ¯ÖÏ×ŸÖ

(†ÓÝÖÏê•ÖÌß ŸÖ£ÖÖ ×Æü®¤üß ´Öë) ÃÖ³ÖÖ ¯Ö™ü»Ö ¯Ö¸ü ¸üÜÖŸÖÖ ÆæÓü… (ÃÖ´ÖÖ¯ŸÖ

REPORT OF THE DEPARTMENT RELATED PARLIAMENTARY STANDING COMMITTEE ON URBAN DEVELOPMENT

SHRIMATI SYEDA ANWARA TAIMUR (ASSAM): Sir, I lay on the Table

a copy (in English and Hindi) of the Thirty-eighth Report (Fourteenth Lok

Sabha) of the Department-related Parliamentary Standing Committee on

Urban Development (2008-2009) on Solid Waste Management relating to

the Ministry of Urban Development. (Ends)

SUPPLEMENTARY DEMANDS FOR GRANTS (RAILWAYS) 2008-2009

¸êü»Ö ´ÖÓ¡Öß (ÁÖß »ÖÖ»Öæ ¯ÖÏÃÖÖ¤ü) : ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ´Öï 2008-2009 Ûêú ¾ÖÂÖÔ Ûêú ×»Ö‹ †®Öã¯Öæ¸üÛú †®Öã¤üÖ®Ö ´ÖÖÓÝÖë

(¸êü»Ö) ÛúÖê ¤ü¿ÖÖÔ®Öê ¾ÖÖ»ÖÖ ×¾Ö¾Ö¸üÞÖ (†ÓÝÖÏê•ÖÌß ŸÖ£ÖÖ ×Æü®¤üß ´Öë) ÃÖ³ÖÖ ¯Ö™ü»Ö ¯Ö¸ü ¸üÜÖŸÖÖ ÆæÓü… (ÃÖ´ÖÖ¯ŸÖ)

STATEMENT RE. STATUS OF IMPLEMENTATION OF SEVENTIETH REPORT OF THE DEPARTMENT RELATED PARLIAMENTARY

STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE:

THE MINISTER OF STATE (INDEPENDENT CHARGE) OF THE

MINISTRY OF STATISTICS & PROGRAMME IMPLEMENTATION

(SHRI G.K. VASAN): Sir, I lay a Statement regarding status of


87

implementation of recommendations contained in the Seventieth Report

of the Department-related Parliamentary Standing Committee on Finance.

(Ends)

(Followed by 1Q/SSS)

SSS/12.10/1P

STATEMENT RE. IMPLEMENTATION OF TWO HUNDRED AND FOURTH REPORT OF THE DEPARTMENT-RELATED

PARLIAMENTARY STANDING COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCE DEVELOPMENT

THE MINISTER OF STATE (INDEPENDENT CHARGE) OF THE

MINISTRY OF YOUTH AFFAIRS AND SPORTS (DR. M.S. GILL): Sir, I

lay a Statement regarding status of implementation of recommendations

contained in the Two Hundred and fourth Report of the Department-

related Parliamentary Standing Committee on Human Resource

Development. (Ends)

STATEMENT RE. IMPLEMENTATION OF TWENTY-THIRD REPORT OF

THE DEPARTMENT-RELATED PARLIAMENTARY STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC GRIEVANCES, LAW AND JUSTICE AND ONE HUNDRED EIGHTY-NINTH REPORT OF THE DEPARTMENT-

RELATED PARLIAMENTARY STANDING COMMITTEE ON SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY, ENVIRONMENT AND FORESTS.

THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF PERSONNEL,

PUBLIC GRIEVANCES AND PENSIONS (SHRI PRITHVIRAJ CHAVAN):

Sir, I lay a Statement regarding status of implementation of

recommendations contained in the Twenty-third Report of the


88

Department-related Parliamentary Standing Committee on Public

Grievances, Law and Justice and One Hundred Eighty-ninth Report of

the Department-related Parliamentary Standing Committee on Science

and Technology, Environment and Forests. (Ends)

STATEMENT RE. IMPLEMENTATION OF TWENTIETY REPORT OF

THE DEPARTMENT-RELATED PARLIAMENTARY STANDING COMMITTEE ON EXTERNAL AFFAIRS

THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS

(SHRI ANAND SHARMA): Sir, I lay a Statement regarding status of the

implementation of recommendations contained in the Twentieth Report

of the Department-related Parliamentary Standing Committee on External

Affairs.

(ENDS) MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, we will take up Special Mentions. SHRI S. S. AHLUWALIA: Sir, I have given a notice in the morning.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No, no, Mr. Ahluwalia...

SHRI S. S. AHLUWALIA: It was said that we are not going to take up

any Special Mentions. Sir, my point is, one of the senior Members of

the Council of Ministers is making statements in the electronic and print

media and that is going against the spirit.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No, no, Mr. Ahluwalia, your Zero Hour

notice is under consideration.

SHRI S. S. AHLUWALIA: Whatever evidences were extracted from one

surviving terrorist are going against that. We cannot find that.


89

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No, no, your Zero Hour notice is under

consideration. Today we are not taking up any Zero Hour. Please...

SHRI S. S. AHLUWALIA: That Minister is supporting the media tirade

against India launched by Pakistan.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Your notice is there. It will be taken up.

Mr. Ahluwalia, you are a senior Member. You were there in the

morning. We had decided not to take up Zero Hour because the other

Bills have to be taken up. See, once in a week we do not take up Zero

Hour. It was decided not to take up Zero Hour today. Please

cooperate.

SHRI S. S. AHLUWALIA: Sir, he is supporting that. How can we

tolerate it? After 26th of November, when the entire nation is worried

about how to combat terrorism, a senior Cabinet Minister is making

such irresponsible statements and this House is sitting idle.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I am not against your raising it. You have

given the notice and it will be taken up tomorrow.

SHRI S. S. AHLUWALIA: Sir, it was told that there will be no Zero

Hour, no Special Mentions and at 12 O' clock they will take up the CrPC

Bill. That is my point.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Home Minister has to move the CrPC

Bill.

SHRI S. S. AHLUWALIA: Sir, I have an objection. Sir, we find in our

House that day-by-day this Government is desperate and determined to

insult this House because whenever we discuss a Bill, an important

CrPC Bill, every now and then, they send a Minister of State to initiate


90

the Bill. Normally, a Cabinet Minister comes and he moves the Bill and,

then, discussion starts. Where is the Home Minister?

ÁÖß ×¤ü×Ý¾Ö•ÖµÖ ØÃÖÆü : µÖÆü ²ÖÖŸÖ ŸÖÖê ÃÖÆüß Æîü… You have to protect the House.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I fully agree, the Home Minister should have

been here. (Interruptions)

SHRI S. S. AHLULWAIA: Why are you insulting the House every day? I

have no personal grouse against him.

DR. V. MAITREYAN: Is the MoS going to table the other two Bills?

SHRI S. S. AHLUWALIA: The CrPC Bill is also slated against Shri P

Chidambaram.

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: He is not elsewhere. He is in the other

House. There is a discussion going on there.

SHRI S. S. AHLUWALIA: No, no, who said that?

DR. V. MAITREYAN: This is also a House.

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: The Home Minister will definitely come.

DR. V. MAITREYAN: When?

SHRI S. S. AHLUWALIA: When will he come?

DR. V. MAITREYAN: After April 2009 he has to come to this House

only. He cannot go there. (Interruptions)

DR. SHAKEEL AHMAD: I had moved this Bill in the Lok Sabha also.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I have called you.

(Contd. by NBR/1Q)

-SSS/NBR-ASC/12.15/1Q

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN (CONTD.): The sentiments of the House are

also very important...(Interruptions)...This is an important Bill. They are


91

raising objection that the Home Minister should have been here


SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Sir, you take up the Special Mentions. We will

wait ...(Interruptions)...Let him come. Otherwise, you adjourn the House

till he comes...(Interruptions)...What is this?

THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF PARLIAMENTARY

AFFAIRS (SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY): Sir, how can he decide

that?...(Interruptions)...

DR. V. MAITREYAN: Already the Railways is following that. Now, the

Home Ministry is also following this.

SHRI DIGVIJAY SINGH: Sir, we want protection from

you...(Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: What protection do you

need?...(Interruptions)...

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Sir, the point is very simple.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Okay, okay. The Home Minister has come.

Let us take it up...(Interruptions)...I have given you protection. I have

called him. He has come...(Interruptions)...Mr. Narayanasamy, now, the

matter is over. Let us resume with the Business.

*

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

* Deleted as ordered by the Chair.


92

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, you move the Code of Criminal

Procedure (Amendment) Bill, 2008.

THE CODE OF CRIMINAL PROCEDURE (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2008.

THE MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM): Sir, I

beg to move:

That the Bill further to amend the Code of Criminal Procedure,

1973, be taken into consideration.

Sir, with your permission, let the discussion start and I will reply to

the debate.

The question was proposed.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Gyan Prakash Pilania. I just want to

remind you that 26 minutes has been allotted to your party and there

are two speakers.

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Sir, this is an important Bill. You should be

considerate.


93

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Ahluwalia, I am just reminding him.

There are 26 minutes allotted and there are two speakers. Now, I leave

it to both of you to decide yourself.

DR. GYAN PRAKASH PILANIA (RAJASTHAN): Sir, thanks for your kind

reminder. In fact, I did not need it. I will stop as soon as you desire.

It is a very, very important piece of legislation as has been

sounded by the House. It is nice that the hon. Home Minister, Shri P.

Chidambaram, has consented to initiate the debate. It is a very

important legislation which needs a great deliberation. A discussion in

depth is required. Its edifice has been laid on the foundations of three

Reports of the Law Commission. The first one is 154th Report of 1996

vintage, another is 177th Report of 2001 and the third one is 178th Report

of the same year.

As far as 154th Report is concerned, it laid the foundation for this

Bill.

(CONTD. BY USY "1R")


94

-NBR-USY/1R/12.20

SHRI GYAN PRAKASH PILANIA (CONTD.): And, this, particularly, deals

with ambition to ensure a fair and speedy justice, and to tone up the

criminal justice system in the country. As we all know, dispensation of

justice is one of the fundamental duties of any State, and getting justice

is one of the fundamental rights of the citizens of a State. Every man,

poorest of the poorest, lowliest of the lowliest, must get ‡ÓÃÖÖ±Ìú at the

door of the Government. And, this Bill is a step forward to ensure that.

We will examine, in minutes to come, how far it rises up to the

occasion.

As far as the 154th Report is concerned, its recommendations were

found very appropriate, particularly those relating to provisions

concerning arrest, custody, remand, procedure for summons and

warrant cases, compounding of offences, victimology, special protection


95

in respect of women, and enquiry and trial of persons of unsound mind.

So, this is the bulk of recommendations contained in this Bill.

As far as the 177th Report is concerned, it related exclusively to

arrest with a view to ensure a balance between the liberty of the citizens

and society's interest in the maintenance of peace as well as law and

order. With your permission, Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, I would like to

quote from a letter written by the Chairman of the 177th Law

Commission, Justice B.P. Jeevan Reddy. This letter was written to the

then Law Minister, Shri Arun Jaitley. I quote, "The theme of this

Commission's Report is to maintain a balance between the liberty of the

citizens, the most precious of all Fundamental Rights, and the societal

interest in maintenance of peace and law and order." This is a theme

that must permeate -- I think, the hon. Minister will appreciate -- all the

activities of the Government, particularly the Executive wing of the

Government, that there must always be a balance between the law and

order and the Fundamental Rights of the citizens, which must be

protected at all costs. This was a decision given by the Supreme Court

also.

As far as the 178th Report of the Law Commission is concerned, it

primarily related to treatment given to witnesses, which were being

induced to threats by accused persons to turn hostile. So, this Report

aims at ensuring that witnesses are not cowed down by money power

or muscle power. Overall, this Bill focuses upon nine basic issues.

Number one, law relating to arrest that concerns every citizen. Number

two, summons and warrant cases, where it has been mandatory that

there should be summary trial in all summons cases. This is a


96

debatable issue about which Departmental Standing Committee had

dwelt upon in detail. Number three, how to check witnesses turning

hostile. This was the third important issue in the criminal justice system

of the country. Number four, special provisions for protection of women.

Womanhood had always been held in high regard in our country. We

have always been believing in µÖ¡Ö ®ÖÖµÖÔÃŸÖ ¯Öæ•ÖµÖ®ŸÖê, ¸ü´Ö®ŸÖê ŸÖ¡Ö ¤êü¾ÖŸÖÖ Hence,

honour, integrity and chastity of women must be protected at all costs.

That was the main theme that was pointed out by the Law Commission

and that has been handled in this Bill.

(Contd. by 1s -- VP)

VP/12.25/1S

DR. GYAN PRAKASH PILANIA (CONTD.): Victimology has been ignored

so far. The victim of a crime had, in fact, no place in the Criminal

Justice System. He didn't have a special standing of his own. He

didn't get compensation. He was a person who suffered and suffered.

Victimology is a new sociological interpretation of system of justice,

which has been dealt with in this Bill.

The sixth point pertains to inquiry and trial of persons of unsound

mind, who cannot look after themselves, and who are persons who have

been betrayed by God and society. A special provision to take care of

those who are of unsound mind has been made, which is laudable.

There should be avoidance of adjournments. Everyone knows,

adjournments are the bane of our judicial system. There is endless

litigation. There are adjournments after adjournments and appeals after

appeals. It has been said that when grandfather institutes a case,


97

grandson, usually, gets the opportunity to hear the judgement. We have

to avoid adjournments.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN) IN THE CHAIR

The eighth point is regarding compounding of offences. As far as

possible, offences should be compounded. As far as possible, litigation

should be avoided. As far as possible, litigation should not become

endless and, as far as possible, there should be a conciliatory approach

overall to decide the cases.

And, last but not the least; the ninth issue is video-conferencing.

This is a new technique. We will discuss during the course of this

debate what is its balance in favour of the accused, as well as, in favour

of the State. So, these nine issues have been handled by this Bill,

which is epoch-making. We think, if properly executed and taken in the

right spirit, it may change the total facet of the Criminal Justice System.

I need not mention that the Criminal Justice System consists of

five different angles. One is the Judiciary, second is the Executive; the

prosecutor, third is the victim, fourth is the person who perpetrated the

crime, and, fifth and final is the jail administration. All these facets come

within the jurisdiction of the Criminal Justice System.

Now, with your permission, point by point, we will deal with

things. I hope, introduction of this new Code of Criminal Procedure

(Amendment) Bill will ensure that justice is not delayed because justice

delayed is justice denied. We also hope that it will ensure that justice is

not tampered with, that justice is not pro-rich, it is not pro-status-quo

and that justice, in ordinary words, will become sasta, sulabh and twarit,

which is the need of the hour. We will come to the points one by one.


98

As far as changes regarding ensuring arbitrary arrest is

concerned, this Bill has gone in detail to ensure that police does not

abuse its powers. Arresting a person in the interest of his safety was

one of the suggestions which has been found highly objectionable by

the Department-related Parliamentary Standing Committee on Home

Affairs, which held detailed deliberations in its eleven sittings lasting for

hours and hours. This Committee submitted its report which was

presided over by one of our distinguished Members of Parliament, Smt.

Sushma Swaraj. (Continued by PB/1T)

PB/1T/12.30

DR. GYAN PRAKASH PILANIA (CONTD.): I trust and hope that the

hon. Home Minister has incorporated in this Bill various kinds of

suggestions made by the Standing Committee of the Ministry.

One of the issues is, victimology. The proposed clauses 3, 37 and

38 provide for a compensation scheme to be prepared for compensating

the victim or his dependants. Action has to be taken on this by all the

States. I wish and pray that certain guidelines are laid down by the

Ministry of Home Affairs at the Central level so that different States

pursue same kind of compensation norms as far as victims are

concerned. Victim Compensation Scheme will be absolutely a new facet

in our judicial system and it should be very rightly prepared.

As far as special provision for women is concerned, it has been

ensured that in cases of rape, medical examination of woman is done

only under expert supervision of a female registered Medical Practitioner

as far as possible. Such Medical Practitioner should be from the State


99

Service or Central Service. That will ensure better bona fides and as far

as victim is concerned, if she is less than 18 years old, her parents or

social worker must remain present during the investigation.

It has been said that investigation of child rape cases may be

completed within three months' of time. I don't see any difference

between the rape case of a child and the rape case of an old woman.

To the lust of offenders, none is exempted. Eighty year-aged woman

has also suffered this pang of rape which kills a woman. While she

remains alive physically, it destroys her totally. So, as far as rape is

concerned, there couldn't be a worse offence against a woman, against

her whole personality, against her total psyche. Hence no distinction

should be made what is her age. Women of any age who have suffered

this stigma must be given justice at the earliest through fast courts or

any special courts preferably presided by a female Judge who can

understand her feeling better than a male Judge. It has been laid out

here. Members and witnesses agreed with this view, and, I think, that

has been accepted by the Home Ministry.

About avoidance of adjournment, there was no difference of

opinion and that has been incorporated in this Bill. Regarding

compounding of offences, offence under Section 498 IPC should be

made compoundable by the woman concerned in addition to husband of

a woman. As far as Section 490A IPC is concerned, it was a new

Section introduced sometime back. It should be included in Table 1 of

Section 320 CrPC and made bailable as well as compoundable. I think,

this is a felt demand because this Section 498A has been open to abuse

by people. Certain persons have suffered throughout the country


100

because of draconian law that is incorporated in this. Hence suggestion

has been made very rightly so and very timely so that it should be made

bailable as well as compoundable.

(Contd. by 1u/SKC)

1u/12.35/skc

DR. GYAN PRAKASH PILANIA (Contd.): Compounding of offences

under Section 451, Section 497, which is adultery, and Section 498,

enticing or taking away or detaining with criminal intent a married

woman, is not desirable. This is the view expressed by the Members

and witnesses of the Standing Committee, and I think the Home Ministry

has graciously accepted this. This is a sane view. As far as persons of

unsound mind are concerned, I think there is nothing much to be

discussed except for that they should be provided with help from

psychologists or clinical scientists for care and treatment, and the

Medical Board should examine them so that nobody who is really not

guilty but who is of an unsound mind is made to suffer.

Sir, Video Conferencing is a debatable point. Video Conferencing

has been introduced. It was initially introduced in Andhra Pradesh. Video

Conferencing makes things easier for the Police and makes it easier for

the judiciary also, but it jeopardises the rights of the accused. I would

like to specifically bring this point to the notice of the hon. Home

Minister. I hope he is listening to me with one of his ears while listening

to learned Mr. Shourie with his other! I hope I am being heard, Sir. I

would like to submit again that lack of police escorts to take undertrials

to courts every fortnight, as provided under the law, has been replaced

by video linkages between jails and courts. This grossly curtails


101

requirements of law vis-a-vis rights of the undertrial since it robs him of

counsel's presence and help. It is a very important point that I am trying

to emphasise. The House may kindly note of it. Video Conferencing

curtails requirements of law vis-a-vis rights of undertrial since it robs him

of counsel's presence and help. Law casts a duty upon the State to

physically produce the accused before the Magistrate. This is the first

and fundamental step required for the accused to negotiate his freedom

with judiciary. This negotiation is already fraught with a number of

problems ranging from bias of judiciary to that of the criminal justice

system, which considers any poor and under-privileged person as a

rogue and as an offender. The criminal justice system adopts a new

technology in the form of video linkage between courts and prisons.

What will its effect be? It will expedite the system. It will help the police;

they would have to undertake less trouble, but it will harm the undertrial

persons very much because the accused in the prison is electronically

produced before the Magistrate in the court. The linkage widens the

already existing divide between the citizen and the criminal justice

system. Hence, abundant caution is required. It has been sounded by

the Departmental Committee that prior to undertaking video

conferencing, also see to it that rights of undertrial prisoners are duly

protected. What can be done regarding witnesses turning hostile, which

was highlighted in certain cases such as the Jessica Lal and other

cases, where money and muscle power played its part? How can we

insulate witnesses from temptation or from threat and how can we

ensure that witnesses come forth readily, freely, frankly and depose the

truth before the court? In this connection, signed statements of


102

witnesses have been suggested which has been also agreed to by the

Departmental Committee.

(Contd. by 1w/hk)

HK/1w/12.40

DR. GYAN PRAKASH PILANIA (CONTD.): Though they would not have

evidential value because any statement made to a police officer in any

way, verbal or written, is not admissible in law. But it will help to ensure

that witness sticks to the written statement because he has signed it.

Secondly, if he does not, then there will be a perjury against him. So,

that provision is the same provision and, therefore, punishment for

perjury is also intended to be enhanced. I think this provision deserves

sanction of the House. Regarding summons and warrant cases, it is a

very special kind of jargon and only those who are apt in law are able to

appreciate it. At present, there are three kinds of trials -- warrant trial,

summons trial and summary trial. But the amendment in this Bill

suggests that all summons cases with punishment up to three years are

to be tried summarily. So, in future, there will be more cases under this

head. At present, 153 offences in the Indian Penal Code are such which

are being summarily tried. But, by making this amendment, there will be

58 new offences added to the list and total will be 211 offences, which

can be tried summarily. This also needs to be taken care of. I think

this provision has been introduced in a hurry. It should be further

looked into and scrutiny of each of the 58 new offences should be

undertaken to see which out of them deserves summary trial and which

deserves usual summons or warrant trial. This word of caution has

been given in the Departmental Committee Report also.


103

Changes in the law relating to arrest have been delineated in

detail. They are all laudable because they aim at ensuring curtailing

arbitrary police power and giving right protection to fundamental liberty

of life and property to the accused or to the offender. How arrests are

to be made? Very detailed instructions have been given, which have

been an outcome of a Supreme Court decision.

I think, Sir, I will be ending very soon. I can see smile on your

face and I will conclude very soon.

Most of the points have been dealt with. As far as adjournments

are concerned, no adjournment should be granted at the request of the

party unless circumstances are beyond the control of that party. I think

that is same.

Regarding protection of woman, I think, distinguished Member

from our side, Shrimati Maya Singh, will be speaking more about it.

..(Interruptions)..

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Your time is almost

exhausted.

DR. GYAN PRAKASH PILANIA: I stop it here. I just stop with the hope.

There is a recommendation and I hope that comes true. I hope that our

very sane and distinguished Home Minister, who himself is a person of

great eminence as far as law and finance are concerned, will fulfil this

promise. The Committee recommends to the Government to have a re-

look at the entire Bill. I don't know whether he would like to have a re-

look or not, but this is what Committee has suggested. I feel, let us not

hassle through; let us not hurry through. I can understand that there is

a hurry for a very special law to check terrorists. There is a hurry for


104

National Investigation Agency. Can this Bill wait for few months more as

it has waited for years and years? The Committee has recommended

the Government to have a re-look at the entire Bill. In the light of

observations and recommendations made in the detailed Report, the

Committee, in this context, would like to reiterate recommendations

made in 111th Report.

(Contd. by 1x/KSK)

KSK/12.45/1X

DR. GYAN PRAKASH PILANIA (CONTD): The Committee, in this

context, would like to reiterate recommendations made in the 111th

Report that the Government should attempt to bring forward a

comprehensive Bill for revamping the entire criminal jurisprudence.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Your Party's time is over.

DR. GYAN PRAKASH PILANIA: Not Party's time, Sir. You are so kind.

She is a lady. She will need your indulgence and goodness. I

conclude, Sir, with grateful thanks to you for your kind patience and very

special thanks to the hon. Home Minister for listening to me, or not

listening to me; I do not know. I know, he must have listened because

he has that capacity.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: He is listening.

DR. GYAN PRAKASH PILANIA: He is talking to the other Minister. He

is listening to me also. That is his special qualification. Thank you very

much, Sir, and I wish best of luck to the new Home Minister in all his

endeavours.

(Ends)


105

DR. E.M. SUDARSANA NATCHIAPPAN (TAMIL NADU): I fully support

the Code of Criminal Procedure (Amendment) Bill, 2006. Actually, after

hearing Mr. Pilania, who is a former DGP, I feel that we have to be very

careful in reading this Bill because Police people are bit happy after

hearing about this new amendment. But, at the same time, it addresses

the issue at the international level. Even though, we were not party to

the International Convention Against Torture, these issues, which were

raised in the International Convention, are also addressed here. In

certain ways, this is a departure from the system which we are following

is adversarial system of jurisprudence. We are now converting ourselves

gradually to the investigative system of jurisprudence. Therefore, we are

gradually tilting towards the European model and we are allowing the

parties, who are outside the Judges or jury, also to play a part in

executing the criminal jurisprudence in a proper way to render the

justice. Therefore, I feel the system, which is now followed by the

British model, is gradually diluted and the fear of the Police is gradually

taken away, and the Police should also feel that they are prince of a

democratic country and they have to help the victims and they have to

protect the interest of victims and they have to protect the interest of

the witnesses. All these issues are, in one way or the other, addressed

by this amendment. Therefore, I fully appreciate the hon. Home Minister

to have brought this law at an appropriate time. In the Bill, we find that

the summary proceeding, which was normally done in very petty cases,

has now been brought up to higher level of punishment cases, where

the offence is treated for two years or more punishment period. That is

also brought to the level of summary proceeding. Therefore, the


106

Judiciary should also be sensitised to use this opportunity to render

justice in a proper way. We have to see that the victim should get

proper remedy. The rehabilitation and also the compensation package

are provided in amendment. But, at the same time, we are giving more

importance to the system of procedure, for example, the arrest

procedure which was followed in criminal rules of practice. Normally, it

was done as a part of Police standing orders. Now, it is made a part of

the Criminal Procedure Code - in which way you can arrest a person; at

what time you can arrest a person; what medium to arrest in a

cognisable offence; even if the Police officer was a witness to a

cognisable offence, whether he has got a right to make the arrest, what

medium to make that level of arrest. These are all addressed by this

amendment. Therefore, we feel, it is a good procedure. But, at the

same time, we have to see that the Police officers are well trained in

following this procedure. If we lay the procedure and it is not followed,

there is no purpose in having such an amendment. The knowledge and

habit of the police system is like that they violate the rules which are

already laid. Therefore, this laying of a very consistent step-by-step

procedure is to be followed just like the American system because we

used to read in the Perry Mason novel how an advocate was aiding a

particular victim in getting the justice. In the same way, this new

procedure allows an advocate to be present along with the victim and

also with the other part, that is, the accused also.

(continued by 1y - gsp)


107

GSP-DS/12.50/1Y

DR. E. M. SUDARSANA NATCHIAPPAN (contd.): More so, regarding the

victim side, another important procedure which was followed in the

earlier Criminal Procedure Code was that with the permission of the

Court, a person could assist the Public Prosecutor. But, now, it has

been given as a right itself, more or less, as an opportunity for the victim

to have legal assistance throughout the case. This means that even if

the State has not proceeded for the appeal against the acquittal, then,

the victim will have the opportunity to use this facility. Therefore, I hope,

this will enable them to get justice at the higher level also.

Coming to arrest procedure, it is made applicable only when there

is apprehension that the accused may not cooperate in the investigation,

or, a person, who may be a witness initially but subsequently made as

one of the accused, is also compelled by way of giving notice to

cooperate in the investigation. If they do not cooperate, they can be

arrested and for that Clause 41 A is included.

Also, the police has been given the direction that they should have

a control room at the District level also. There is also a proposition, as I

already said, that aid of an Advocate can be taken at the time of the

arrest of a particular accused. It has been incorporated by way of 41D,

and, that is a very excellent right given to any accused.

Nowadays, many cases with regard to violation of women's rights

by the police officers are reported. There is a clear mention that women

police alone can arrest a female person, otherwise, arrest can be made

only on oral intimation of arrest. This is also a very good proposition,

which is being made as a part of the law.


108

There is a very good mandatory provision that a female Registered

Medical Practitioner shall accompany the arrested person in case the

arrested person is a female.

Sir, the custodial deaths are reported in every State, and, in

certain States, these are much more in numbers. Therefore, the type of

medical certificate when a person is arrested and put in custody, will

help to find out as to whether he was tortured by the police or not.

Therefore, it is a very good departure, which is really addressing the

issue of human rights activists.

With regard to care of the health and safety of the accused is also

addressed by Clause 55A. Here, I would like to draw the attention of

hon. Home Minister that prison reforms should be there. Sir, when the

police stations get the custody of the prisoners -- in some cases, the

judicial custody also -- the prisoner's health is not properly looked after,

even though, we are following the ancient Prisoners Rules formulated

during the British regime. Even after submission of so many reports on

this issue, we have not come forward and we have not gone for that.

Normally, most of the people who are victims in a particular case, when

they are put in to the judicial custody or prison, they are converted into

criminals. This is the system being created within the prisons. There is

no reformative system followed. Today, the system is such where the

person who is a holy enough, when pushed into the prison and comes

out, becomes an unholy person and becomes a party to many criminal

activities. Therefore, reforms of the prisons should also be looked into.


109

Similarly, provisions regarding protecting the rights of the rape-

victims of the age of 18 years and above, and, also of the child being

raped, which are given here are good provisions.

Regarding Section 164, the confessional statements given by the

witnesses, and, in certain cases by accused, are now electronically

recorded, and, a copy of the statements which are recorded by the

Magistrate has to be furnished to the police officer.

(contd. by 1z-ysr)

-GSP/YSR/12.55/1Z

DR. E.M. SUDARSANA NATCHIAPPAN (CONTD.): That is also provided

here by way of amendment. A departure has been made by making

immediate punishment for the perjury. It means if the witness gives a

statement under Section 162, he has to sign it. It is a complete

departure from the practice which was not at all before us as practising

lawyers. The lawyer used to ask the witness whether he signed the

statement or not. If he signed the statement, it would not be

considered as a piece of evidence. But now a person has to sign it

and, at the same time, he can get a copy of that statement also. That

would be treated as an acknowledgement of the statement. Therefore,

that can be used against him if he goes away from it.

Another provision is given here. If a magistrate or a judge finds

that a particular witness is deviating from his own statement, which was

recorded either under Section 162 or under Section 164, then he can be

punished immediately for a period of more than three months to one

year. That type of punishment is also given.


110

But it will take some more time to be understood by an ordinary

citizen. Many people are brought in as cooked up witnesses. They

have no knowledge about it, but their statements are recorded. Now

they can easily get a copy of it as acknowledgement. But, at the same

time, due to his ignorance, when he comes into the box and he could

not follow the statement which was already recorded under Section 162,

immediately, he will be penalised and put inside the jail. Therefore, it

has to be applied carefully till maturity comes at the level of citizens.

We have to sensitise people also. Police officers, witnesses,

prosecutors, judges, and defence lawyers, everybody should have the

knowledge that this is the new system which we are following.

Otherwise, there will be a lot of people who will be prejudiced by way of

this new system which is going to be followed.

But we appreciate this measure. It is a very good thing for a

civilised society where we are trying to educate the people through the

Sarva Shiksha Abhiyan and other system. They have to develop their

knowledge in this system also. They should come forward to help the

administration and also the police in getting justice for the victim.

Regarding remand, a provision is given. Remand can be

extended. It is based on many judicial pronouncements. Even through

electronic video, remands were also allowed in certain cases. It is also

a very dangerous thing. It has to be applied very carefully, because

many people will be tortured in the prison. But now his remand will be

extended through this. The opportunity to look at the person physically

by a magistrate is now missing. Therefore, it has to be handled very

carefully.


111

On summary proceedings, I would like to draw the attention of the

hon. Home Minister that when it is applied, the judiciary should

cooperate with us, because we are giving it the right to make summary

evidence. That means they have to comprehend it in its entirety whether

it is the examination, or the cross-examination or the re-examination,

and make it or put it in a summary way. They should not leave certain

things according to their fancy. The Judiciary should completely

cooperate with us. Then only we can reduce the pendency of cases.

And then we can provide justice to both the sides by summary trial.

Regarding compounding, it is a very good effort to reduce the

number of cases and also the enmity between parties, which may exist,

if a person is convicted at the end of it. A chance is being given for

amicable and peaceful solution through compounding of offences.

But there is some irritation. I hope the hon. Member, Shrimati

Brinda Karat, may highlight it. But, at the same time, I have got the

duty to just indicate the liberal nature of diluting the things, just like

adultery under Section 497. It can be compounded if the husband of

the woman accepts it.

(Contd. By VKK/2A)

-YSR/VKK/2a/1.00

DR. E.M. SUDARSANA NATCHIAPPAN (CONTD.): And then, enticing or

taking away or detaining with a criminal intent a married woman under

section 498 is also compoundable. I feel, these are all too much for us,

for a society which has joint family system and conservative mind. We

should not allow so easily the offender to escape the clutches of law

who knows that he cannot be expected, when he commits an offence


112

under section 497 or 498, to be set free on the basis of the

compounding. Similarly, causing miscarriage. How can we allow that to

go in for compounding? It's totally unimaginable for us. Section 312 is

for causing miscarriage to a woman. Sir, this is too much and we

cannot tolerate it. I feel it has to be re-looked. Next is section 354 which

provides for assault or criminal force to woman with intent to outrage

her modesty. How can we allow section 354 to be compounded? This is

very easy for hooligans who are sitting on the roadsides. Look at the

case of one college student in Chennai who was assaulted and

criminally forced. She died on the spot. Many people are in the trauma.

Many adult girl students are not at all able to cope with this type of

assault in the society. Mr. Rao is saying that many cases are coming up

in the name of ragging. Ragging is prohibited in certain areas by way of

State laws. Even then, how can we allow it to be compoundable? If that

is so, it is easy for the person to do the offence and then threaten again

that if you do not come forward to compound, then, I will do this and

that. In this way, you are increasing the degree of the offence.

Therefore, I feel that this type of thing has to be re-looked. Similarly,

marrying again during the lifetime of the husband or wife. How can we

pardon it? When you want to have a 'single wife, single husband'

concept, how can we pardon that you can marry anybody and you can

compound it subsequently? The husband or the wife of the person so

marrying can come and say that it can be compounded. It is also too

much. Section 509 provides that uttering words or sounds or making

gestures or exhibiting any object, intending to insult the modesty of a

woman or intruding upon the privacy of a woman. To whom? To a


113

woman whom it was intended to insult or whose privacy was intruded

upon. A lady can come out and complain under Section 509. That itself

shows the culture. But, when they come out and when you allow it to

be compounded, then, everything goes wrong. That cannot be

controlled. We are not helping the privacy of the women. We are not

giving importance to women, at least, in the mind of the Indians. We

may have many cultures, we may have globalisation everywhere, but, we

have to retain our joint family system, we have to retain our Hindu way

of life and we have to retain our Indian way of life. That has to be

protected.

Sir, many new innovations are also there and I feel, this is a new

way of thinking and this has to be totally sensitised. Also, it has to bring

a change in the mindset and in the set-up of the judiciary. There should

be a total change in the minds of the prosecutors, police officers,

defence lawyers, witnesses, victims, jail wardens and everywhere. Then

only this amendment will be a successful amendment. Thank you very

much, Sir. (Ends)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Thank you Mr.

Natchiappan. Next, Shri Prasanta Chatterjee. See, we have to pass it

before 2.00 p.m. Your party has eight minutes. But, there is one more

speaker. Shrimati Brindaji will also be speaking. Therefore, try to be

brief. That's all. (Interruptions) I only said that try to be brief. I didn't say

more than that.

SHRI PRASANTA CHATTERJEE (WEST BENGAL): Sir, I will not take

much time.

(Contd. by MKS/2b)


114

MKS-MP/1.05/2B

SHRI PRASANTA CHATTERJEE (CONTD.): Sir, this is a very important

Bill. The Standing Committee has elaborately discussed it. Many of the

amendments have been accepted by the Ministry, by the Government,

and, thereafter, you will see, Sir, that the serial numbers have been

changed. I would like to bring it to the notice of the Minister that with

the acceptance of the amendments, that will have to be corrected.

Sir, we all know that amending the Cr.PC alone is not enough to

make the society crime free. The socio-economic conditions of the

people, the awareness of the people, the political and social awareness,

strengthening of the same, strengthening of the judiciary, active

involvement of the elected bodies, these are all important to make the

society crime free or to have less crimes in the society. Actually, the

role of judiciary is also very important. With this idea in mind, we have

to find out how the police authorities can be made people-friendly. We

should not make them harsher. By doing so, the number of crimes will

come down. There should be a very balanced approach between the

two. At the same time, strengthening the police authorities is

necessary; strengthening the implementation of the Acts is also

necessary. Some good changes have been made in the Bill which was

originally circulated. There is a great change. It is good that on page 3,

we find that the detention of a person is necessary for his safety; that

has been deleted. "The engagement of an advocate at the choice of

the victim" has been inserted in the Bill; this is very good. On page 3,

in clause 6, in section 41, there is a mention of words that "to appear

before him or such other places..." My request is that the place should


115

be made very specific, either within his limits of his own or in the

adjoining areas, where he is to appear. It will be good to make the

place very specific.

Sir, good changes have been made. On page 4, we have found

in 54(1) that the Government medical practitioner has been given the

preference, and in case of a female arrestee, the female medical

practitioner has been given the preference. It is a very good change

that has been effected here.

Sir, we all know--please refer to clause 11 on page 4--that the

woman judges are presently inadequate. A sufficiently good number of

efficient woman judges are necessary. Even that is equally required in

respect of male judges. Very recently, we came to know that

unsatisfactory appointment of judges has been cited as one of the

reasons for accumulation of many court cases. The Minister has

circulated it. It is good that while dealing with section 157, in clause 11,

it has been stated: "In case of an offence of rape, the recording of the

statement of the victim shall be recordance at the residence of the

victim or at any other place of her choice, as far as practicable, by a

woman police officer in the presence of her parents or a guardian." It is

very good that this has taken place.

Sir, another suggestion is that in line 33 on page 3, in 41C(2) it is

stated: "The State Government shall cause to be displayed..." The

word, I would like to request, 'forthwith' be added immediately. Sir, it is

better to include that word in 41c(2).


116

Sir, the video conferencing aspect was elaborately discussed in

the Committee, and we have suggested to them to be very careful

before implementing this facility.

(Contd. by TMV/2C)

-MKS-TMV-SC/2C/1.10

SHRI PRASANTA CHATTERJEE (CONTD.): The person who appears

before the magistrate can explain it better in person. That we all know.

To improve the system this is welcome. But we should be very cautious

and, particularly, he should not be detained in police custody. We

requested the Ministry to be careful so that this wouldn't be misused.

So, a fool-proof system is necessary before its implementation. We

have made a request in this regard.

As regards the advocate becoming a witness, it was discussed in

the Standing Committee. If he remains present during the video

conferencing, then he can't appear as advocate. That point was also

discussed in the Standing Committee. From our side we have proposed

some amendments. Madam Brinda Karat will explain them. So far as

compounding is concerned, it was also discussed in the Standing

Committee. We should be very cautious because in many of the

clauses women are involved. We want some deletions to be made.

Madam Brinda Karat will explain them. We request the Government to

consider these amendments. With these few words, I support the Bill

and conclude. Thank you. (Ends)

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117

ÃÖ¸üÖÆü®ÖßµÖ Æïü »Öê×Ûú®Ö ¾Öê †³Öß ³Öß †¯ÖæÞÖÔ Æïü… ‡ÃÖÛêú †×ŸÖ×¸üŒŸÖ ‡ÃÖ´Öë Ûãú”û ‹êÃÖê ¯ÖÏÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö Æïü

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ÃÖ´ÖµÖ ÃÖß´ÖÖ ²ÖÆãüŸÖ Ûú´Ö Æîü… How many minutes have you given to me?

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seven minutes. If you can stick to that, it will be very good.

SHRI VIRENDRA BHATIA: You please give me some more time. You

allow me some more time.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: You can take one or two minutes more.

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"4. In section 26 of the principal Act, in clause (a), the following

proviso shall be inserted, namely:-

"Provided that any offence under sections 376 and sections 376A

to D of the Indian Penal Code shall be tried as far as practicable

by a court presided over by a woman."

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118

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¯Ö¸ü Æüß ÆüÖê®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹ ×Ûú ÛúÖî®Ö-ÛúÖî®Ö †×³ÖµÖãŒŸÖ ×ÛúÃÖ-×ÛúÃÖ ÃÖ´ÖµÖ ¯Ö¸ü ¯ÖÛú›ÍüÖ ÝÖµÖÖ Æîü… •Ö²Ö ŸÖÛú

†Ö¯Ö ¾ÖÆü ®ÖÆüà Ûú¸ëüÝÖê, ŒµÖÖë×Ûú £ÖÖ®Öê ¯Ö¸ü ¾ÖÆü ²Ö®¤üß ²Ö®ÖÖ Æãü†Ö Æîü †Öî¸ü ¯Öã×»ÖÃÖ ÛÓú™ÒüÖê»Ö ¹ý´Ö ÛúÖê


119

ÃÖæ“Ö®ÖÖ ®ÖÆüà ¤êü ¸üÆüÖ Æîü ŸÖÖê ŒµÖÖ ×Ã£Ö×ŸÖ †Ö‹ÝÖß… ×›ü×Ã™ÒüŒ™ü Æîü›üŒ¾ÖÖ™Ôü¸ü ´Öë ŸÖÖê ÃÖæ“Ö®ÖÖ ²ÖÖ¤ü ´ÖêÓ

•ÖÖ‹ÝÖß… ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ ÃÖ²ÖÃÖê ¯ÖÆü»Öê µÖÆü “ÖîÛú ÆüÖê®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹ ŸÖ£ÖÖ £ÖÖ®Öê ¯Ö¸ü µÖÆü ÃÖæ“Ö®ÖÖ †Ö®Öß “ÖÖ×Æü‹

ŸÖ£ÖÖ £ÖÖ®Öê ¯Ö¸ü ×›üÃ¯»Öê ²ÖÖê›Ôü »ÖÝÖÖ ÆüÖê®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹ ×Ûú ‡ÃÖ ®ÖÖ´Ö ÛúÖ µÖÆü †×³ÖµÖãŒŸÖ ‡ÃÖ †¯Ö¸üÖ¬Ö ´Öë

µÖÆüÖÓ ¯Ö¸ü ¯ÖÛú›ÍüÖ ÝÖµÖÖ Æîü… ˆÃÖÛúß †Ö¾Ö¿µÖÛúŸÖÖ Æîü, Ûêú¾Ö»Ö ”ûÖê™üÖ ÃÖÖ ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê¬Ö®Ö Æîü… »Öê×Ûú®Ö

‡ÃÖÛúÖ ¯ÖÏ³ÖÖ¾Ö ²ÖÆãüŸÖ ¾µÖÖ¯ÖÛú ÆüÖêÝÖÖ…

¤æüÃÖ¸üß ²ÖÖŸÖ, ‹Ûú “Öß•Ö †Öî¸ü Æîü… Œ»ÖÖò•Ö-41D Æîü… "When any person

is arrested and interrogated by the police, the arrestee shall be entitled

to meet an advocate of his choice during interrogation, though not

throughout interrogation."

´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß, Æü´ÖÖ¸êü ”ûÖê™êü ÃÖê ÃÖ•Öê¿ÖÓÃÖ Æïü, •ÖÖê ¿ÖÖµÖ¤ü ¯ÖÏê×Œ™üÛú»Ö Æïü, ˆ®ÖÛúÖê ÃÖã®Ö »Öß×•Ö‹…

ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ´Öê¸üÖ †®Öã¸üÖê¬Ö Æîü ×Ûú ´Öê¸üß ²ÖÖŸÖ ÃÖã®Ö »Öß •ÖÖ‹, ´Öê¸êü ”ûÖê™êü ÃÖê ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê¬Ö®Ö Æïü…

‡ÃÖ´Öë †Ö¯Ö®Öê ÛúÆüÖ Æîü ×Ûú : 'meet an advocate of his choice during

interrogation' •ÖÖê ×›ü±ÏëúÃÖ ÛúÖ ™üÖ‡´Ö Æîü, †¸êüÃ™ü †Öî¸ü ‡Ó™êü¸üÖêÝÖê¿Ö®Ö ÛúÖ, ÃÖ¯ÖÖêØ•ÖÝÖ, Ûú»Ö ÛúÖê

‹ÃÖ0‹“Ö0†Öê0 -†¸êüØÃ™üÝÖ †Ö×±úÃÖ¸ü ÛúÆüŸÖÖ Æîü ×Ûú Æü´Ö®Öê ŸÖÖê †¸êüÃ™ü ×ÛúµÖÖ Æîü, Æü´Ö ‡Ó™üê¸üÖêÝÖê™ü ®ÖÆüà

Ûú¸ü ¸üÆêü Æïü…

THE MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM): Mr.

Bhatia, you have not given any amendments.

SHRI VIRENDRA BHATIA: I am only making a request to you. I know it.

I have not given. But this is my suggestion.

'To meet an advocate of his choice during interrogation.' It should be

immediately after arrest also.

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Which clause are your referring to?

SHRI VIRENDRA BHATIA: . Clause 41 (D). ‡ÃÖÛúÖ ¾Öê ×´ÖÃÖ-µÖæ•Ö Ûú¸ü ÃÖÛúŸÖê Æïü

×Ûú ‡ÃÖÛúÖ ‡Ó™üê¸üÖêÝÖê¿Ö®Ö ŸÖ³Öß ÆüÖêÝÖÖ •Ö²Ö Æü´Ö ‡Ó™üê¸üÖêÝÖê¿Ö®Ö ¿Öãºþ Ûú¸ëüÝÖê, †³Öß ŸÖÖê Æü´Ö®Öê †¸êüÃ™ü

×ÛúµÖÖ Æîü… immediately after arrest an advocate should be allowed to meet

the person who has been arrested at any time.


120

¤æüÃÖ¸üÖ, ´Öê¸üÖ ‹Ûú ÃÖãôÖÖ¾Ö †Öî¸ü Æîü… •Ö²Ö ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ †×³ÖµÖãŒŸÖ ×ÝÖ¸ü°ŸÖÖ¸ü Ûúß •ÖÖŸÖß Æîü, ŸÖÖê

†Ö¯Ö®Öê ÛúÆüÖ ×Ûú During interrogation, not throughout interrogation. ´Öê¸üÖ ‡ÃÖ´Öë

‹Ûú ÃÖãôÖÖ¾Ö Æîü ×Ûú •Ö²Ö ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ †×³ÖµÖãŒŸÖ ¯ÖÛú›Íüß •ÖÖ‹ ŸÖÖê ¯Öæ¸êü ÃÖ´ÖµÖ ˆÃÖÛêú ¯ÖÖÃÖ ‹Ûú ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ

†×¬Ö¾ÖŒŸÖÖ ÛúÖê ¸üÆü®Öê Ûúß ‡•ÖÖ•ÖŸÖ ¤üß •ÖÖ‹… µÖÆü ´Öê¸üÖ ‹Ûú ÃÖãôÖÖ¾Ö Æîü, ŒµÖÖë×Ûú ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ†Öë ÛúÖê

¯ÖÛú›ÍüÖ •ÖÖŸÖÖ Æîü †Öî¸ ¯ÖÏÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö Ûêú ²ÖÖ¤ü ³Öß ˆ®ÖÛúß ×ÝÖ¸ü°ŸÖÖ¸üß ¸üÖŸÖ ´Öë ÆüÖêŸÖß Æîü †Öî¸ü ×¤üÜÖÖ‡Ô ®ÖÆüà

•ÖÖŸÖß †Öî¸ü ×ÝÖ¸ü°ŸÖÖ¸üß ÃÖ¾Öê¸êü ×¤üÜÖÖ‡Ô •ÖÖŸÖß Æîü… £ÖÖ®Öê ¯Ö¸ü ˆ®ÖÛêú ×»Ö‹ ŒµÖÖ ¿Ö²¤ü ¯ÖÏµÖÖêÝÖ ×ÛúµÖÖ

•ÖÖŸÖÖ Æîü, ×ÛúÃÖ ¯ÖÏÛúÖ¸ü ÃÖê ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ †×³ÖµÖãŒŸÖÖë ÛúÖ †¯Ö´ÖÖ®Ö ×ÛúµÖÖ •ÖÖŸÖÖ Æîü, ´Öï ˆÃÖÛêú ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë ®ÖÆüà

ÛúÆü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ… ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ ˆÃÖÛúê ‡Ó™ü¸üÖêÝÖê¿Ö®Ö Ûêú ÃÖ´ÖµÖ ‹Ûú ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ †×¬Ö¾ÖŒŸÖÖ µÖÖ ÛúÖê‡Ô ³Öß

†×¬Ö¾ÖŒŸÖÖ ÛúÖ ¾ÖÆüÖÓ ¯Ö¸ü ¸üÆü®ÖÖ †Ö¾Ö¿µÖÛú Æîü…

(2E/ASC ¯Ö¸ü ÛÎú´Ö¿Ö:)

RG/ASC/1.20/2E

ÁÖß ¾Öß¸êü®¦ü ³ÖÖ×™üµÖÖ (ÛÎú´ÖÖÝÖŸÖ) : ´Öê¸üß ‹Ûú †Ö¯Ö×¢Ö Æî… As regards Section 161, it has

been stated in clause 12, "Provided that statement made under this sub-

section may also be recorded by audio-video electronic means:

Provided further that in respect of offences specified in sub-

section (1) of section 164(B), where such person is required to be

forwarded to the nearest Magistrate for recording this statement under

that section, his statement to the police officer shall not be reduced into

writing under this sub-section." Then, it further says: "Provided that

where any statement has been recorded under section 164 B, the police

officer shall enclose a copy of such statement as part of his police

diary..." I have no objection to that. But in clause 13, it says: " The

statement made by any person to a police officer in the course of an

investigation under this Chapter shall, if reduced into writing, be signed

by the person making it. I oppose it. ‡ÃÖÛúÖ ‹Ûú ÛúÖ¸üÞÖ Æîü, 161 ÛúÖ Ã™êü™ü´Öë™ü


121

†³Öß ÃÖÖ‡®Ö ®ÖÆüà ÆüÖêŸÖÖ… •Ö²Ö †Ö¯Ö 161 ÛúÖ Ã™êü™ü´Öë™ü ÃÖÖ‡®Ö Ûú¸üÖ »ÖëÝÖê- †Ö¯Ö ×Ã£Ö×ŸÖ ÃÖ´ÖôÖ

ÃÖÛúŸÖê Æïü ×Ûú ¯Öã×»ÖÃÖ †Ö×±úÃÖ¸ü Ûêú ÃÖÖ´Ö®Öê ÛúÖê‡Ô ³Öß ÝÖ¾ÖÖÆü- ×•ÖÃÖ ŸÖ¸üÆü ÃÖê †ÃÖŸµÖ 161 Ûêú

Ã™êü™ü´Öë™ü ×»ÖÜÖê •ÖÖŸÖê Æïü †Öî¸ü ˆÃÖÛêú ²ÖÖ¤ü ¤üÃŸÖÜÖŸÖ Ûú¸üÖ »ÖëÝÖê ...(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Are you talking about the new Section 162 in

the Amendment Bill?

SHRI VIRENDRA BHATIA: Yes.

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: An official Amendment has been moved to

delete that Section and restore the original Section.

ÁÖß ¾Öß¸êü®¦ü ³ÖÖ×™üµÖÖ : ´Öï ×±ú¸ü †Ö¯Ö ÃÖê µÖÆü ÛúÆü ¸üÆüÖ ÆæÓü ×Ûú •ÖÖê †Ö¯Ö®Öê ÛúÆüÖ Æîü ×Ûú ...if

reduced into writing, be signed by the person making it." That is another

thing.

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Which portion are you referring to? It is

from Page 5, is it? Kindly listen to me. The whole of this is being

deleted, and the original Section in the Criminal Procedure code is being

restored. So, this Amendment is not being done

SHRI VIRENDRA BHATIA: Then I take back my objection. Now, as

regards section 164, in clause 14, it is stated: "Provided that any

confession or statement made under this sub-section may also be

recorded by audio-video electronic means." There is a room for misuse

of this provision. When you want that it is admissible in the evidence,

then, for making a statement before the Magistrate, he should go before

the Magistrate. Otherwise, †Ö¯Ö®Öê ‹Ûú •ÖÝÖÆü £ÖÖ®Öê ¯Ö¸ü ÜÖ›ÍüÖ Ûú¸ü ×¤üµÖÖ ŸÖ£ÖÖ ÃÖÖ£Ö ´Öë

“ÖÖ¸ü ¯Öã×»ÖÃÖ ¾ÖÖ»Öê ÜÖ›Íêü Æïü †Öî¸ü ˆÃÖÃÖê confess Ûú¸üÖ ×»ÖµÖÖ… ´Öî×•ÖÃ™Òêü™ü ÛúÖê ŒµÖÖ ´ÖÖ»Öæ´Ö ×Ûú

“ÖÖ¸ü †Ö¤ü´Öß ²ÖÓ¤æüÛú ×»Ö‹ Æãü‹ ÜÖ›Íêü Æïü … Then, that will be a statement made

under duress. When you say, "in the presence of a lawyer", even the

presence of a lawyer can be excused at that time. Then, what will


122

happen? Now if that lawyer is to defend him, then, will he be a

witness? And, I know of cases where the police engage a lawyer, and

the police say, "This is the lawyer", and they move a bail application." I

know of several such instances.

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: I don't want to interrupt at every stage, but I

thought it would save a lot of time. If you are referring to clause 14,

then, Section 164 is already there in the Code of Criminal Procedure

...(Interruptions) I am not a criminal lawyer. You are one...

SHRI VIRENDRA BHATIA: I am not a criminal lawyer. I am a lawyer

practising especially on the criminal side. Don't say that I am a criminal

lawyer.

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, Section 164 requires that a confession or

a statement can be recorded by a Metropolitan Magistrate or a Judicial

Magistrate. Nobody else can record it. No change is being made

there. This is a proviso to Section 164 (1). So, when the Magistrate

records a confession, the clause applies, "Provided that any confession

or statement, made under this sub-section", by the Magistrate, may also

be recorded by audio-video means. The original recording is not taken

away. The Magistrate will record it. This provision says, "It may also be

recorded." So, there is nothing wrong with that.

(Followed by 2F)

-ASC/LP/TDB/2F/1.25

ÁÖß ¾Öß¸êü®¦ü ³ÖÖ×™üµÖÖ : ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ´Öï •ÖÖ®ÖŸÖÖ ÆæÓü ×Ûú "´Öê" ÛúÖ ŸÖÖŸ¯ÖµÖÔ ŒµÖÖ ÆüÖêŸÖÖ Æîü… µÖÆü ´Ö×•ÖÃ™Òêü™ü

ÛúÖê †×¬ÖÛúÖ¸ü ¤êüŸÖÖ Æîü ×Ûú ¾ÖÆü ×ÛúÃÖß ³Öß ×¾Ö×¬Ö «üÖ¸üÖ ˆÃÖê ×¸üÛúÖò›Ô Ûú¸ü ÃÖÛúŸÖÖ Æîü, »Öê×Ûú®Ö ‡®Ö

†×¬ÖÛúÖ¸üÖë ÛúÖ ×ÛúŸÖ®ÖÖ ¤ãü¹ý¯ÖµÖÖêÝÖ Æãü†Ö Æîü, Æü´Ö ‡ÃÖÃÖê †ÖÓÜÖë ²ÖÓ¤ü ®ÖÆüà Ûú¸ü ÃÖÛúŸÖê Æïü…

†Ö¯Ö ÛúÆü ¤ë ×Ûú ÃÖÖšü ×Ûú»ÖÖê´Öß™ü¸ü ¤æü¸ü •Öê»Ö ´Öë ²ÖîšüÖ Æãü†Ö Æîü, †Öò×›üµÖÖê-¾Öß×›üµÖÖê ×¸üÛúÖòÚ›üÝÖ Ûú¸ü


123

»Öß×•Ö‹, »Öê×Ûú®Ö ´Ö×•ÖÃ™Òêü™ü ×ÛúÃÖ ¯ÖÏÛúÖ¸ü ÃÖê ÛúÖµÖÔ Ûú¸üŸÖê Æïü, ˆÃÖ ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë ²ÖÆãüŸÖ ÃÖß “Öß•Öë ´Öï

²ÖŸÖÖ®ÖÖ ®ÖÆüà “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÓü… ´Öï ÃÖ´ÖôÖŸÖÖ ÆæÓü ×Ûú †Öò×›üµÖÖê, ¾Öß×›üµÖÖê ×¸üÛúÖòÚ›üÝÖ ÃÖê †×³ÖµÖãŒŸÖ ÛúÖ ²ÖµÖÖ®Ö

×¸üÛúÖò›Ô ®ÖÆüà ÆüÖê®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹… •ÖÖê ²ÖÖŸÖ ¾ÖÆü ´Ö×•ÖÃ™Òêü™ü Ûêú ÃÖÖ´Ö®Öê ˆ¯Ö×Ã£ÖŸÖ ÆüÖêÛú¸ü ÛúÆü ÃÖÛúŸÖÖ Æîü,

¾ÖÆü †Öò×›üµÖÖê, ¾Öß×›üµÖÖê ×¸üÛúÖòÙ›ÝÖ ´Öë ®ÖÆüà ÛúÆü ÃÖÛúŸÖÖ Æîü… ×Ûú®Ö ¯Ö×¸ü×Ã£Ö×ŸÖµÖÖë ´Öë ¾ÖÆü †¯Ö®ÖÖ

Ã™êü™ü´Öë™ü ×¸üÛúÖò›Ô Ûú¸ü¾ÖÖ ¸üÆüÖ Æîü, ˆÃÖ ÃÖÓ¤ü³ÖÔ ´Öë µÖÆü ˆ×“ÖŸÖ ®ÖÆüà Æîü, ´Öï ‡ÃÖÛúÖ ×¾Ö¸üÖê¬Ö Ûú¸üŸÖÖ ÆæÓü…

†ÝÖ¸ü †Ö¯Ö ÃÖ´ÖôÖŸÖê Æïü ×Ûú ¾ÖÆü ×ÃÖ±Ôú 164 ÛúÖ ‹×›ü¿Ö®Ö Æîü, †Ö¯Ö®Öê ¯ÖÏÖê×¾Ö•ÖÖê Ûú¸ü ×¤üµÖÖ, ‡ÃÖ´Öë

ÛúÖê‡Ô ÃÖ²¿Ö™ëü×¿ÖµÖ»Ö “Öë•Ö ®ÖÆüà ×ÛúµÖÖ Æîü ŸÖÖê ˆÃÖê ¸üÆü®Öê ŒµÖÖë ®ÖÆüà ¤êüŸÖê Æïü? ‡ÃÖ ‹×›ü¿Ö®Ö Ûúß ŒµÖÖ

†Ö¾Ö¿µÖÛúŸÖÖ ¯Ö›Íß?

ŸÖßÃÖ¸üß ²ÖÖŸÖ, 167 ´Öë †Ö¯Ö®Öê •ÖÖê †´Öë›ü´Öë™ü ×¤üµÖÖ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..

ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¬µÖõÖ (¯ÖÏÖê. ¯Öß.•Öê.Ûãú×¸üµÖ®Ö) : ³ÖÖ×™üµÖÖ •Öß, ÃÖ´ÖÖ¯ŸÖ Ûúß×•Ö‹…

ÁÖß ¾Öß¸êü®¦ü ³ÖÖ×™üµÖÖ : ´Öï®Öê ‡ÃÖß×»Ö‹ ÛúÖê‡Ô ‡×ŸÖÆüÖÃÖ ²ÖŸÖÖ®ÖÖ ¿Öãºþ ®ÖÆüà ×ÛúµÖÖ Æîü… ¯Ö¸ÓüŸÖã •ÖÖê ´Öê¸üß

ÃÖ´ÖôÖ ´Öë †Ö ¸üÆüÖ Æîü, but the Magistrate may extend subsequently, every

time. 167 ´Öë †Ö¯Ö®Öê •ÖÖê ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê¬Ö®Ö ×ÛúµÖÖ Æîü, ×²Ö®ÖÖ ˆÃÖÛúß ˆ¯Ö×Ã£Ö×ŸÖ Ûêú ³Öß ×¸ü´ÖÖÓ›ü ×¤üµÖÖ •ÖÖ

ÃÖÛúŸÖÖ Æî, ´Öï ˆÃÖÛúÖ ³Öß ×¾Ö¸üÖê¬Ö Ûú¸üŸÖÖ ÆæÓü… †×³ÖµÖãŒŸÖ Ûúß ˆ¯Ö×Ã£Ö×ŸÖ ´Ö×•ÖÃ™Òêü™ü Ûêú ÃÖÖ´Ö®Öê ×¸ü´ÖÖÓ›ü

Ûêú ×»Ö‹ †ŸµÖÓŸÖ †Ö¾Ö¿µÖÛú Æîü… ®Ö‡Ô ÃÖß.†Ö¸ü.¯Öß.ÃÖß. ´Öë µÖÆü ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê¬Ö®Ö ‡ÃÖß×»Ö‹ ×ÛúµÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ £ÖÖ…

‡ÃÖß ÛúÖê ¤üÃŸÖÜŸÖ ¸üÜÖŸÖê Æãü‹ ×ÛúµÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ £ÖÖ ×Ûú †×³ÖµÖãŒŸÖ ÛúÖ †¯Ö®ÖÖ †×¬ÖÛúÖ¸ü ÆüÖê®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹ ×Ûú

•Ö²Ö ¾ÖÆü ´Ö×•ÖÃ™Òêü™ü Ûêú ÃÖÖ´Ö®Öê ¾µÖ×ŒŸÖÝÖŸÖ ºþ¯Ö ÃÖê ˆ¯Ö×Ã£ÖŸÖ ÆüÖê, ŸÖÖê †¯Ö®Öß ²ÖÖŸÖ ÛúÆü ÃÖÛêú… ²ÖÆãüŸÖ

ÃÖß ²ÖÖŸÖë ”æû™ü ÝÖ‡Õ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN : Bhatiaji, please conclude.

ÁÖß ¾Öß¸êü®¦ü ³ÖÖ×™üµÖÖ : ´Öï ÃÖ´ÖµÖ ÃÖß´ÖÖ ÃÖ´ÖôÖ ¸üÆüÖ ÆæÓü, ¯Ö¸ÓüŸÖã †Ö¯Ö ´Öê¸üß ³Öß ÃÖ´ÖµÖ ÃÖß´ÖÖ ÃÖ´ÖôÖ

»Öß×•Ö‹, †Ö¯Ö®Öê ×ÝÖ¸ü°ŸÖÖ¸üß Ûêú ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ¬Ö ´Öë ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..

ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¬µÖõÖ : ™üÖ‡´Ö ÜÖŸ´Ö…

ÁÖß ¾Öß¸êü®¦ü ³ÖÖ×™üµÖÖ : ´ÖãôÖê †Ö¯Ö ¯ÖÖÓ“Ö ×´Ö®Ö™ü ÛúÆü »Öê®Öê ¤üß×•Ö‹… ™üÖ‡´Ö ÃÖ³Öß Ûêú ×»Ö‹ ÜÖŸ´Ö ®ÖÆüà

ÆüÖêŸÖÖ… †ÝÖ¸ü ™üÖ‡´Ö ´Öê¸êü ×»Ö‹ ÜÖŸ´Ö ÆüÖê •ÖÖŸÖÖ Æîü ŸÖÖê ´Öï Æüß ÜÖŸ´Ö ÆüÖê •ÖÖŸÖÖ ÆæÓü, ‡ÃÖ´Öë ŒµÖÖ

×¤üŒÛúŸÖ Æîü… ´Öï ‡ŸÖ®Öß ´ÖÆüŸ¾Ö¯ÖæÞÖÔ ²ÖÖŸÖ ÛúÆü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÓü †Öî¸ü †Ö¯Ö ÛúÆüŸÖê Æïü ×Ûú “Öã¯Ö ²Öîšü •ÖÖ†Öê…

†Ö¯Ö ‹Ûú ²ÖÖŸÖ ÃÖ´ÖôÖ »Öß×•Ö‹, †Ö¯Ö®Öê •ÖÆüÖÓ ŸÖÛú ×ÝÖ¸ü°ŸÖÖ¸üß Ûêú ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ¬Ö ´Öë ÛúÆüÖ Æîü..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..


124

ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¬µÖõÖ (¯ÖÏÖê. ¯Öß.•Öê.Ûãú×¸üµÖ®Ö) : †Ö¯ÖÛúß ¯ÖÖ™üá ÛúÖ ™üÖ‡´Ö ÃÖÖŸÖ ×´Ö®Ö™ü £ÖÖ, †Ö¯Ö®Öê ¯ÖÓ¦üÆü ×´Ö®Ö™ü

×»Ö‹ Æïü… ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..

ÁÖß ¾Öß¸êü®¦ü ³ÖÖ×™üµÖÖ : †Ö¯Ö ÃÖã®Ö »Öß×•Ö‹… ´Öï ²ÖÆãüŸÖ ÃÖÓõÖê¯Ö ´Öë ²ÖÖŸÖ ÛúÆü ¸üÆüÖ ÆæÓü… •ÖÆüÖÓ ŸÖÛú

×ÝÖ¸ü°ŸÖÖ¸üß Ûúß ²ÖÖŸÖ Æîü, ×ÝÖ¸ü°ŸÖÖ¸üß Ûêú ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ¬Ö ´Öë ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..

SHRIMATI JAYA BACHCHAN: There were interruptions.


ÁÖß ¾Öß¸êü®¦ü ³ÖÖ×™üµÖÖ : ÃÖêŒ¿Ö®Ö 41 ´Öë †Ö¯Ö®Öê •ÖÖê ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê¬Ö®Ö ×Ûú‹ Æïü ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: What did you say? ...(Interruptions)... What are

you saying? ...(Interruptions)... I am not interrupting. Don't make such

comments. Why do you say, 'don't interrupt me?' I am not interrupting

you.

SHRIMATI JAYA BACHCHAN: I never said, 'don't interrupt me'. I said,

'there were interruptions, Sir.'

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Okay, okay. ...(Interruptions)... Not interruptions;

not interruptions. There were interactions between the Minister and

himself. That was very useful; very educative also. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRIMATI JAYA BACHCHAN: But, don't point a finger at me.

...(Interruptions)... You can't talk to me like this.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: What are you doing?

SHRIMATI JAYA BACHCHAN: You can't point a finger at me like this.


THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: You can't point...(Interruptions)... Please; please.

The hon. Member should not point finger to the Chair.

SHRIMATI JAYA BACHCHAN: You did it, Sir. I am saying, 'you please

don't do it'. You pointed a finger at me. ...(Interruptions)...


125

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): You behave properly,

hon. Member. Please behave properly. You should know how to behave.

Please, take your seat. ...(Interruptions)... Please, take your seat. Don't

point finger to the Chair. ...(Interruptions)...

ÁÖß ¾Öß¸êü®¦ü ³ÖÖ×™üµÖÖ : †Ö¯Ö®Öê ÃÖêŒ¿Ö®Ö 41 ´Öë •ÖÖê ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê¬Ö®Ö ×Ûú‹ Æïü, ‡ÃÖ´Öë ÛúÖê‡Ô ¿ÖÛú ®ÖÆüà Æîü ×Ûú

µÖêü ²Ö›Íüê ÛÎúÖÓ×ŸÖÛúÖ¸üß ÆîÓü..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..

ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¬µÖõÖ : •Ö»¤üß ÜÖŸ´Ö Ûúß×•Ö‹…

ÁÖß ¾Öß¸êü®¦ü ³ÖÖ×™üµÖÖ : ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö).. ´Öï ²ÖÆãüŸÖ ¯ÖÏêÃÖÖ‡•Ö Ûú¸ü ¸üÆüÖ ÆæÓü… ÃÖêŒ¿Ö®Ö 41 ´Öë †Ö¯Ö®Öê •ÖÖê

ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê¬Ö®Ö ×Ûú‹ Æïü, ¾Öê ¾ÖÖÛú‡Ô ´Öë ¯ÖÏ¿ÖÓÃÖ®ÖßµÖ Æïü, »Öê×Ûú®Ö ´Öï £ÖÖê›Íüß ÃÖß ²ÖÖŸÖ †Öî¸ü ÛúÆü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÓü

×Ûú µÖÆü ²ÖÖŸÖ ×”û¯Öß ®ÖÆüà Æîü ×Ûú ‹±ú.†Ö‡Ô.†Ö¸ü. ´Öë ±úÖ»ÃÖ ‡×´¯»ÖÛêú¿Ö®Ö ²ÖÆãüŸÖ ×ÛúµÖê •ÖÖ ¸üÆêü Æïü…

´Öê¸üÖ †Ö¯ÖÃÖê †®Öã¸üÖê¬Ö Æîü ×Ûú ‡ÃÖ ¯Ö¸ü ×¾Ö“ÖÖ¸ü Ûúß×•Ö‹ ×Ûú •ÖÖê×ÝÖ®¤ü¸ü Ûãú´ÖÖ¸ü Ûêú ÛêúÃÖ ÛúÖê ±úÖê»ÖÖê

×ÛúµÖÖ •ÖÖ®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹… ”ûÖê™êü-”ûÖê™êü †¯Ö¸üÖ¬ÖÖë ´Öë, ×•ÖÃÖ´ÖêÓ ¤üÖê ¾ÖÂÖÔ ÃÖê Ûú´Ö Ûúß ÃÖ•ÖÖ Æîü, Ûú´Ö ÃÖê Ûú´Ö

ˆÃÖ´Öë ¾µÖ×ŒŸÖ ÛúÖê •Öê»Ö ®ÖÆüà ³Öê•ÖÖ •ÖÖ®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹… †Ö•Ö ²Ö¤ü»ÖÖ »Öê®Öê Ûêú ×»Ö‹ 323 ®ÖÖò®Ö

ÛúÖò×Ý®Ö•Öê²Ö»Ö Æîüü, 147 »ÖÝÖÖÛú¸ü †Ö¤ü´Öß •Öê»Ö ³Öê•Ö ×¤üµÖÖ •ÖÖŸÖÖ Æîü… ‡ÃÖ ¯ÖÏ¾Öé×¢Ö ÛúÖê ¸üÖêÛúÖ •ÖÖ®ÖÖ

“ÖÖ×Æü‹… ¯Öã×»ÖÃÖ †¯Ö®Öê †×¬ÖÛúÖ¸üÖë ÛúÖ ¤ãü¹ý¯ÖµÖÖêÝÖ Ûú¸ü ¸üÆüß Æîü… ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ Ûãú”û ‡ÃÖ ¯ÖÏÛúÖ¸ü Ûúß

¯ÖÏ×ÛÎúµÖÖ Ûú¸ÓêÓ ×Ûú ×•Ö®Ö´Öë ¤üÖê ¾ÖÂÖÔ ÃÖê Ûú´Ö Ûúß ÃÖ•ÖÖ ÛúÖ ¯ÖÏÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö Æîü, ˆÃÖÛúÖ ×´ÖÃÖµÖæ•Ö ¸üÖêÛúÖ •ÖÖ®ÖÖ

“ÖÖ×Æü‹… ×±ú¸ü ³Öß µÖÆü Ã¾ÖÖÝÖŸÖ µÖÖêÝµÖ Ûú¤ü´Ö Æîü, ‡ÃÖ´Öë ÛúÖê‡Ô ¿ÖÛú ®ÖÆüà Æîü… ‹Ûú †´Öë›ü´Öë™ü, ×•ÖÃÖÛúÖ

´Öï ²ÖÆãüŸÖ ×¾Ö¸üÖê¬Ö Ûú¸üŸÖÖ ÆæÓü, 309 ´Öë, †Ö¯Ö®Öê •ÖÖê ‹›ü¾ÖÖêÛêú™ËüÃÖ Ûêú ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë ÛúÆüÖ Æîü, ˆÃÖÛúÖ ´Öï

¯ÖæÞÖÔŸÖµÖÖ, ×•ÖŸÖ®Öß ´Öê¸üß ¿Ö×ŒŸÖ Æîü, ˆÃÖ ¿Ö×ŒŸÖ Ûêú ÃÖÖ£Ö ×¾Ö¸üÖê¬Ö Ûú¸üŸÖÖ ÆæÓü…

(akg/2g ¯Ö¸ü •ÖÖ¸üß)

AKG-KGG/2G/1.30 ÁÖß ¾Öß¸êü®¦ü ³ÖÖ×™üµÖÖ (ÛÎú´ÖÖÝÖŸÖ) : µÖÆü ÃÖÆüß Æîü ×Ûú †Ö•ÖÛú»Ö ´ÖãÛú¤ü´ÖÖë ´Öë ¤êü¸üß ÆüÖê ¸üÆüß Æîü, »Öê×Ûú®Ö

¤êü¸üß Ûêú ×»Ö‹ ×ÃÖ±Ôú ¾ÖÛúß»ÖÖë ÛúÖê ×•Ö´´Öê¤üÖ¸ü šüÆü¸üÖ®ÖÖ, µÖÆü šüßÛú ®ÖÆüà Æîü… µÖÆü ¾ÖîÃÖÖ Æüß Æîü •ÖîÃÖê

™êü¸üÖê×¸üÃ™ü †™îüÛú Ûêú ×»Ö‹ †Ö•Ö ÃÖÖ¸üÖ ¤êü¿Ö ¸üÖ•Ö®Öß×ŸÖóÖÖë ÛúÖê ×•Ö´´Öê¤üÖ¸ü šüÆü¸üÖ ¸üÆüÖ Æîü… Ûéú¯ÖµÖÖ ¤üÖê

×´Ö®Ö™ü ´Öë ´Öê¸üß ²ÖÖŸÖ ÃÖã®Ö »Öë… †Ö¯Ö®Öê 309 ´Öë ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê¬Ö®Ö ×ÛúµÖÖ †Öî¸ü 330 CrPC ´Öë †Ö¯Ö ÛúÆü ¸üÆêü

Æïü, "An accused has a right to be defended by a lawyer of his choice".


126

Is it not contradictory to that? •Ö•Ö ²Öß´ÖÖ¸ü ÆüÖê •ÖÖ‹, ˆÃÖê ”ûàÛú †Ö •ÖÖ‹, ŸÖÖê ¾ÖÆü ‘Ö¸ü

¯Ö¸ü ²Öîšü •ÖÖŸÖÖ Æîü… †ÝÖ¸ü ¾ÖÛúß»Ö ²Öß´ÖÖ¸ü Æîü µÖÖ ÛúÆüà ¯Ö¸ü ¾µÖÃŸÖ Æîü, ŸÖÖê †Ö¯Ö ˆÃÖÃÖê ÛúÆëüÝÖê ×Ûú

¤æüÃÖ¸üÖ ¾ÖÛúß»Ö Ûúß×•Ö‹… ˆÃÖ®Öê ±úßÃÖ ‹Ûú ¾ÖÛúß»Ö ÛúÖê ¤êü ¸üÜÖß Æîü †Öî¸ü †Ö¯Ö ²ÖÆüÃÖ ¤æüÃÖ¸êü ¾ÖÛúß»Ö

ÃÖê Ûú¸üÖ®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖê Æïü… ŒµÖÖ µÖÆü ¬ÖÖ¸üÖ 330 CrPC †Öî¸ü ˆÃÖÛêú ´ÖÖî×»ÖÛú †×¬ÖÛúÖ¸üÖë Ûêú ×¾Ö¯Ö¸üßŸÖ

®ÖÆüà Æîü? ¾ÖÆü ×“Ö¤ü´²Ö¸ü´Ö ÃÖÖÆü²Ö ÃÖê ²ÖÆüÃÖ Ûú¸üÖ®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ Æîü †Öî¸ü ¾ÖÆüÖÑ ¯Ö¸ü Æü´Ö ¯ÖÆãÑü“Ö •ÖÖ‹Ñ ×Ûú

ÃÖÖÆü²Ö, ¾Öê ŸÖÖê ¤æüÃÖ¸êü ÛúÖê™Ôü ´Öë ¾µÖÃŸÖ Æïü… ´Öï ÃÖ´ÖôÖŸÖÖ ÆæÑü ×Ûú µÖÆü criminal jurisprudence Ûêú

×ÜÖ»ÖÖ±ú Æîü †Öî¸ü ¾ÖÛúß»ÖÖë Ûêú ×ÜÖ»ÖÖ±ú Æîü… ´Öï ×“Ö¤ü´²Ö¸ü´Ö ÃÖÖÆü²Ö ÃÖê µÖÆü ˆ´´Öß¤ü ®ÖÆüà Ûú¸üŸÖÖ £ÖÖ

×Ûú ¾Öê ¾ÖÛúß»Ö ÆüÖêŸÖê Æãü‹ ÃÖÖ¸üÖ ¤üÖêÂÖÖ¸üÖê¯ÖÞÖ ¾ÖÛúß»ÖÖë ¯Ö¸ü Ûú¸ü ¤ëüÝÖê… ˆÃÖ ÃÖ´ÖµÖ ´Ö×•ÖÃ™Òêü™ü ŒµÖÖ

Ûú¸êüÝÖÖ? ¯Öã×»ÖÃÖ ŸÖ´ÖÖ´Ö adjournments »ÖêŸÖß Æîü, ÝÖ¾ÖÖÆü ®ÖÆüà †ÖŸÖê Æïü… †Ö¯Ö µÖÆü ÛúÆü ÃÖÛúŸÖê

£Öê ×Ûú ‡ÃÖÛúÖê misuse ®ÖÆüà ×ÛúµÖÖ •ÖÖ®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹… µÖÆü ˆ““ÖŸÖ´Ö ®µÖÖµÖÖ»ÖµÖ ŸÖÛú ®Öê ÛúÆüÖ Æîü ×Ûú

309 ÛúÖ ¤ãü¹ý¯ÖµÖÖêÝÖ ÆüÖê ¸üÆüÖ Æîü… ˆÃÖÛúÖê ¸üÖêÛúÖ •ÖÖ®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹… †ÝÖ¸ü witness †ÖµÖÖ Æãü†Ö Æîü,

ŸÖÖê ˆÃÖ ¯Ö¸ü heavy cost »ÖÝÖÖ ¤êü®Öß “ÖÖ×Æü‹… »Öê×Ûú®Ö †ÝÖ¸ü †Ö¯Ö ÛúÆëü ×Ûú †Ö•Ö ¾ÖÛúß»Ö ²Öß´ÖÖ¸ü

ÆüÖê ÝÖµÖÖ Æîü, ŸÖã¸ÓüŸÖ ¤æüÃÖ¸üÖ ¾ÖÛúß»Ö Ûú¸ü »Öß×•Ö‹, ŸÖÖê µÖÆü ®Ö ŸÖÖê ÃÖ´³Ö¾Ö Æîü †Öî¸ü ®Ö µÖÆü ÆüÖêÝÖÖ… µÖÆü

Ûêú¾Ö»Ö ¾ÖÛúß»ÖÖë ¯Ö¸ü ¤üÖêÂÖÖ¸üÖê¯ÖÞÖ Ûú¸ü®Öê Ûêú ×»Ö‹ »ÖÖµÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ Æîü †Öî¸ü ¾ÖÛúß»Ö ×¾Ö¸üÖê¬Öß Æîü…

‡ÃÖÛêú ²ÖÖ¤ü †®ŸÖ ´Öë ´Öï †×®ŸÖ´Ö ²ÖÖŸÖ ÛúÆü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÑü ×Ûú †Ö¯Ö®Öê compounding Ûúß

²ÖÖŸÖ ÛúÆüß Æîü… µÖÆü ²ÖÆãüŸÖ †“”ûÖ Æîü ×Ûú ²ÖÆãüŸÖ ÃÖê sections compounding ×Ûú‹ ÝÖ‹…

»Öê×Ûú®Ö †³Öß •ÖîÃÖÖ ›üÖ. ÃÖã¤ü¿ÖÔ®Ö ®ÖÖ““ÖßµÖ¯¯Ö®Ö •Öß ®Öê 494 Ûêú ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë ÛúÆüÖ, µÖÆü ŸÖÖê ²ÖÆãüŸÖ †“”ûÖ

Æîü ×Ûú ¤æüÃÖ¸üß ¿ÖÖ¤üß Ûúß×•Ö‹, social fabric ÛúÖê ®ÖÂ™ü Ûúß×•Ö‹, ÃÖÖ´ÖÖ×•ÖÛú ´ÖµÖÖÔ¤üÖ†Öë ÛúÖê ®ÖÂ™ü

Ûúß×•Ö‹ †Öî¸ü ˆÃÖÛêú ²ÖÖ¤ü compounding Ûú¸üÖ »Öß×•Ö‹… ‡ÃÖß ¯ÖÏÛúÖ¸ü ÃÖê 509 Æîü… šüßÛú Æîü,

‡ÃÖÛúÖ ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ†Öë ¯Ö¸ü ‡ŸÖ®ÖÖ ¯ÖÏ³ÖÖ¾Ö ¯Ö›ÍêüÝÖÖ ×Ûú ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ†Öë ¯Ö¸ü ×ÛúŸÖ®ÖÖ ¤ü²ÖÖ¾Ö ›üÖ»ÖÖ •ÖÖ‹ÝÖÖ,

‡ÃÖÛúß †Ö¯Ö Ûú»¯Ö®ÖÖ ®ÖÆüà Ûú¸ü ÃÖÛúŸÖê… ‡ÃÖÛúÖ ÃÖ´ÖÖ•Ö ¯Ö¸ü ¤æü¸üÝÖÖ´Öß ¯Ö×¸ÞÖÖ´Ö ÆüÖêÝÖÖ… ´Öï ®ÖÆüà

ÃÖ´ÖôÖŸÖÖ ×Ûú ‡ÃÖ ¯ÖÏÛúÖ¸ü Ûêú †¯Ö¸üÖ¬ÖÖë ÛúÖê compounding ²Ö®ÖÖ®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹… ‡ÃÖÛêú ×¾Ö¯Ö¸üßŸÖ,

•ÖîÃÖÖ †³Öß ˆ¬Ö¸ü ÃÖê ÛúÆüÖ ÝÖµÖÖ, 498(‹) ÛúÖ ¤ãü¹ý¯ÖµÖÖêÝÖ ÆüÖê ¸üÆüÖ Æîü… †³Öß ²ÖŸÖÖµÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ ×Ûú

Ã™ïüØ›üÝÖ Ûú´Öê™üß Ûúß ×¸ü¯ÖÖê™Ôü ³Öß Æîü ×Ûú 498 ÛúÖ ×ÛúÃÖ ¯ÖÏÛúÖ¸ü ÃÖê ¤ãü¹ý¯ÖµÖÖêÝÖ ÆüÖê ¸üÆüÖ Æîü †Öî¸ü ¾ÖÆü

¯Ö×¸ü¾ÖÖ¸üÖë ÛúÖê ŸÖÖê›Íü ¸üÆüß Æîü… ´Öï †×®ŸÖ´Ö ²ÖÖŸÖ Æüß ÛúÆü ¸üÆüÖ ÆæÑü… 498(‹) ÛúÖ ¤ãü¹ý¯ÖµÖÖêÝÖ ÆüÖê ¸üÆüÖ

Æîü… ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ 498(‹) ÛúÖê ‹êÃÖÖ ²Ö®ÖÖ‡‹, ŒµÖÖë×Ûú ˆÃÖ´Öë ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ†Öë Ûúß ×ÝÖ¸ü°ŸÖÖ¸üß ÆüÖê ¸üÆüß Æîü,


127

®Ö®Ö¤ü Ûúß ×ÝÖ¸ü°ŸÖÖ¸üß ÆüÖê ¸üÆüß Æîü… ¾ÖÆü ×¾Ö¤êü¿Ö ´Öë Æîü †Öî¸ü ®Ö®Ö¤ü ¯ÖÛú›Íüß •ÖÖ ¸üÆüß Æîü, ÃÖÖÃÖ ¯ÖÛú›Íüß

•ÖÖ ¸üÆüß Æî… †³Öß •ÖÖê †ÖÑÛú›Íêü †Ö‹ Æïü, ˆ®Ö´Öë µÖÆü ³Öß †ÖµÖÖ Æîü ×Ûú 498(‹) Ûêú 50 ¯Ö¸üÃÖë™ü

ÛêúÃÖê•Ö false ¯ÖÖ‹ ÝÖ‹… ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ ˆÃÖÛúÖ ¤ãü¹ý¯ÖµÖÖêÝÖ ÆüÖê ¸üÆüÖ Æîü… ˆÃÖ´Öë Ûãú”û ‹êÃÖß ¾µÖ¾ÖÃ£ÖÖ

Ûúß×•Ö‹ ×Ûú •Ö²Ö ŸÖÛú ˆÃÖ´Öë investigation complete ®Ö ÆüÖê •ÖÖ‹, ŸÖ²Ö ŸÖÛú ˆÃÖ´Öë

×ÝÖ¸ü°ŸÖÖ¸üß ®Ö Ûúß •ÖÖ‹… ˆÃÖÃÖê ¯Ö×¸ü¾ÖÖ¸üÖë ÛúÖê ×±ú¸ü ÃÖê •ÖÖê›Íü®Öê ÛúÖ Ûú´Ö-ÃÖê-Ûú´Ö ‹Ûú ´ÖÖîÛúÖ

×´Ö»ÖêÝÖÖ… †ÝÖ¸ü ×ÛúÃÖß ¯Ö×ŸÖ Ûúß ´ÖÖÑ, ²ÖÖ¯Ö, ²ÖÆü®Ö, ³ÖÖ‡Ô ²Ö®¤ü ÆüÖê •ÖÖŸÖê Æïü, ŸÖÖê ˆÃÖÛêú ²ÖÖ¤ü ˆ®ÖÛêú

¯Ö×¸ü¾ÖÖ¸üÖë ÛúÖê †Ö¯ÖÃÖ ´Öë •ÖÖê›Íü®Öê Ûúß ²ÖÖŸÖ ×±ú¸ü ®ÖÆüà ¸üÆü •ÖÖŸÖß Æîü… ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ ¯Ö×¸ü¾ÖÖ¸ü •Öã›Íü®Öê ÛúÖê

¤êüÜÖŸÖê Æãü‹ Ûú´Ö-ÃÖê-Ûú´Ö 498(‹) ÛúÖê compoundable ²Ö®ÖÖ‡‹…

´Öï †×®ŸÖ´Ö ¾ÖÖŒµÖ ×ÃÖ±Ôú µÖÆü ÛúÆü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÑü ×Ûú ÃÖÖ¸üß †×¾Ö¾ÖÖ×ÆüŸÖ »Ö›Íü×ÛúµÖÖÑ •Öê»Ö ³Öê•Öß

•ÖÖ ¸üÆüß Æïü, †Ö¯Ö®Öê ÃÖÖ¸üÖ ¤üÖêÂÖÖ¸üÖê¯ÖÞÖ Æü´Ö ¯Ö¸ü Ûú¸ü ×¤üµÖÖ, ¾ÖÛúß»ÖÖë ¯Ö¸ü Ûú¸ü ×¤üµÖÖ, “ÖæÑ×Ûú ´Öï

¾ÖÛúß»ÖÖë ÛúÖ ¯ÖÏ×ŸÖ×®Ö×¬Ö ÆæÑü, ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ µÖÆü ²ÖÖŸÖ ÛúÆü ¸üÆüÖ ÆæÑü, †Ö¯Ö †¯Ö®Öê ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë ³Öß ŸÖÖê ÃÖÖê×“Ö‹!

“ÖÖ¸ü-“ÖÖ¸ü ÃÖÖ»Ö ÃÖê †±ú•Ö»Ö ÝÖã¹ý ÛúÖê ±úÖÑÃÖß Æãü‡Ô ¯Ö›Íüß Æîü †Öî¸ü “ÖÖ¸ü ÃÖÖ»Ö ÃÖê †Ö¯ÖÛúß ÃÖ¸üÛúÖ¸ü

µÖÖ×“ÖÛúÖ ÛúÖ ×®ÖÃŸÖÖ¸üÞÖ ®ÖÆüà Ûú¸ü ¯ÖÖ ¸üÆüß Æîü, •Ö®ÖŸÖÖ Æü´ÖÃÖê µÖÆü ³Öß ¯Öæ”ûŸÖß Æîü… †Ö¯Ö ®µÖÖµÖÖ»ÖµÖÖë

†Öî¸ü ¾ÖÛúß»ÖÖë ¯Ö¸ü ¤üÖêÂÖÖ¸üÖê¯ÖÞÖ Ûú¸ü ¸üÆêü Æïü, ¯ÖÆü»Öê †Ö¯Ö †¯Ö®Öê ¤üÖ´Ö®Ö ´Öë ³Öß ŸÖÖê ôÖÖÑÛú Ûú¸ü ¤êü×ÜÖ‹…

“ÖÖ¸ü ¾ÖÂÖÔ »ÖÝÖŸÖê Æïü, ×•Ö®Ö »ÖÖêÝÖÖë ÛúÖê ÃÖ•ÖÖ Æãü‡Ô Æîü, ˆ®ÖÛúß µÖÖ×“ÖÛúÖ‹Ñ »Ö×´²ÖŸÖ Æïü, “ÖÖÆêü ¾ÖÆü

†±ú•Ö»Ö ÝÖã¹ý ÆüÖê, “ÖÖÆêü ÛúÖê‡Ô †Öî¸ü ÆüÖê… †Ö¯Ö “ÖÖ¸ü ¾ÖÂÖÔ ÃÖê ±úÖ‡»Ö move ®ÖÆüà Ûú¸ü ¯ÖÖ ¸üÆêü Æïü!

†Ö¯Ö ¤æüÃÖ¸üÖë Ûêú ×»Ö‹ ŒµÖÖë ÛúÆü ¸üÆêü Æïü, ¤æüÃÖ¸üÖë ¯Ö¸ü †Ö¸üÖê¯Ö ŒµÖÖë »ÖÝÖÖ ¸üÆêü Æïü? ¯ÖÆü»Öê †Ö¯Ö †¯Ö®ÖÖ

“ÖêÆü¸üÖ ¤êü×ÜÖ‹, ¯ÖÆü»Öê ˆ®ÖÛúÖ ×®ÖÃŸÖÖ¸üÞÖ Ûúß×•Ö‹, ×±ú¸ü ¾ÖÛúß»ÖÖë ¯Ö¸ü ¤üÖêÂÖÖ¸üÖê¯ÖÞÖ Ûúß×•Ö‹…

¬Ö®µÖ¾ÖÖ¤ü… (ÃÖ´ÖÖ¯ŸÖ)

(2‹“Ö/Ûêú‹»Ö‹ÃÖ ¯Ö¸ü †ÖÝÖê)

SCH-KLS/1.35/2H

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Your Party's time was

seven minutes but you took twenty-two minutes. ¸üÖ•Ö®Öß×ŸÖ ¯ÖÏÃÖÖ¤ü •Öß, †Ö¯Ö

†¯Ö®Öß ²ÖÖŸÖ ¯ÖÖÓ“Ö ×´Ö®Ö™ü ´Öë Æüß ÜÖŸ´Ö Ûú¸ëü ŸÖÖê †“”ûÖ ÆüÖêÝÖÖ, ŒµÖÖë×Ûú ¤üÖê ²Ö•Öê Æü´Öë µÖÆü ×²Ö»Ö ¯ÖÖÃÖ

Ûú¸ü®ÖÖ Æîü…


128

ÁÖß ¸üÖ•Ö®Öß×ŸÖ ¯ÖÏÃÖÖ¤ü (×²ÖÆüÖ¸ü): †Ö¯Ö ¯ÖÖÓ“Ö ×´Ö®Ö™ü ´Öë Æüß ‘ÖÓ™üß ²Ö•ÖÖ ¤üß×•Ö‹ÝÖÖ, ´Öï ÜÖŸ´Ö Ûú¸ü ¤æÓüÝÖÖ…

(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)

ÁÖß ¾Öß¸êü®¦ü ³ÖÖ×™üµÖÖ: †Ö¯Ö Æü´Öë ³Öß ÃÖã®Ö ×»ÖµÖÖ Ûúß×•Ö‹, ×¤üŒÛúŸÖ µÖÆü Æîü ×Ûú †Ö¯Ö Æü´Ö »ÖÖêÝÖÖêÓ ÛúÖê

ÃÖã®ÖŸÖê ®ÖÆüà Æïü…

ÁÖß ¸üÖ•Ö®Öß×ŸÖ ¯ÖÏÃÖÖ¤ü: †Ö¯Ö ¹ý×Ûú‹, ¹ý×Ûú‹…

ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¬µÖõÖ (¯ÖÏÖê. ¯Öß.•Öê.Ûãú×¸üµÖ®Ö): ¸üÖ•Ö®Öß×ŸÖ ¯ÖÏÃÖÖ¤ü •Öß, †Ö¯Ö ²ÖÖê×»Ö‹…

ÁÖß ¾Öß¸êü®¦ü ³ÖÖ×™üµÖÖ: •ÖµÖÖ •Öß ŒµÖÖ ²ÖÖŸÖ ÛúÆü ¸üÆüß £Öà, »Öê×Ûú®Ö †Ö•Ö †Ö¯Ö®Öê •ÖµÖÖ •Öß ÛúÖê Æüß ÛúÆü

×¤üµÖÖ… * •ÖµÖÖ •Öß ¾Ö×¸üÂšü ÃÖ¤üÃµÖ Æïü †Öî¸ü ‡®ÖÛúÖê †Ö¯Ö®Öê ×•ÖÃÖ ŸÖ¸üÆü Ûúß ²ÖÖŸÖ ÛúÆüß, *

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: You are sitting and speaking. ...(Interruptions)...

You should know the rule. ...(Interruptions)...

ÁÖß ¾Öß¸êü®¦ü ³ÖÖ×™üµÖÖ: ®ÖÆüà-®ÖÆüà, ÃÖ¸ü… Æü´Ö ºþ»ÃÖ •ÖÖ®ÖŸÖê ÆîÓ, »Öê×Ûú®Ö Æü´Ö ‹Ûú ²ÖÖŸÖ ¤êüÜÖŸÖê Æïü ×Ûú

Æü´Öê¿ÖÖ ÃÖ´ÖÖ•Ö¾ÖÖ¤üß ¯ÖÖ™üá *

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: What is your problem?

ÁÖß ¾Öß¸êü®¦ü ³ÖÖ×™üµÖÖ: ´Öï ¤æüÃÖ¸üß ¯ÖÖÙ™üµÖÖë Ûêú ÃÖÓ²ÖÓ¬Ö ´Öë †Ö¯ÖÛúÖê ×¤üÜÖÖ ¤æÓüÝÖÖ, ÃÖÖŸÖ ×´Ö®Ö™ü Ûêú ²Ö•ÖÖ‹ ¾Öê

²ÖßÃÖ-²ÖßÃÖ ×´Ö®Ö™ü ²ÖÖê»ÖŸÖê Æïü †Öî¸ü *

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: It is not correct. ...(Interruptions)...

ÁÖß ¾Öß¸êü®¦ü ³ÖÖ×™üµÖÖ: ¾ÖÆü ‡ÃÖ ÃÖ¤ü®Ö Ûúß ¾Ö×¸üÂšü ÃÖ¤üÃµÖ Æïü †Öî¸ü †Ö¯Ö ˆ®Æëü ‡ÃÖ ŸÖ¸üßÛêú ÃÖê ‡Ó×ÝÖŸÖ

Ûú¸ü ¸üÆêü Æïü †Öî¸ü ¤æüÃÖ¸üß †Öê¸ü Æü´Ö ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ†Öë Ûúß ²ÖÖŸÖ Ûú¸ü ¸üÆêü Æïü…

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Do not make such allegations.

...(Interruptions)... This is wrong. ...(Interruptions)... I want to make it

clear that the Congress Party had 34 minutes...(Interruptions)... This is

not correct. You see even the Congress Party...(Interruptions)...

ÁÖß ¾Öß¸êü®¦ü ³ÖÖ×™üµÖÖ: Æü´Ö »ÖÖêÝÖ µÖÆü ‹Ûú ‘Ö™ü®ÖÖ Ûêú †Ö¬ÖÖ¸ü ¯Ö¸ü ®ÖÆüà ÛúÆü ¸üÆêü Æïü, “ÖæÓ×Ûú ‹êÃÖÖ ÆüÖê

¸üÆüÖ Æîü, ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ Æü´Öë µÖÆü ÛúÆü®ÖÖ ¯Ö›Íü ¸üÆüÖ Æîü…

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

* Expunged as ordered by the Chair.


129

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Your time was seven

minutes but you took more than twenty-two minutes. ...(Interruptions)...

Whereas the Congress Party had...(Interruptions)... Please do not make

such allegations. ...(Interruptions)... That will not go on record.

...(Interruptions)...That will not go on record. ...(Interruptions)...

ÁÖß ¾Öß¸êü®¦ü ³ÖÖ×™üµÖÖ: *

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Please take your seat. ....(Interruptions)... You

are such a learned man, you are an advocate, how can you talk and

behave like this? Let me make it clear since you are making an

allegation against the Chair that Congress had 34 minutes, it took less

than half of its time, BJP had 26 minutes and took not a single minute

more than that, CPM had eight minutes and its Member has taken

seven or eight minutes, SP had seven minutes and Bhatiaji started

speaking at 1.12 and finished at 1.35 which means he took 23 minutes.

...(Interruptions)... In place of seven minutes, I allowed him to speak for

more than 22 minutes. ...(Interruptions)... In place of seven minutes, I

allowed him 23 minutes. No other party was allowed so much excess

time. And then if such a senior Member is making an allegation like

this, it is wrong. It should not have been said. This is unbecoming of a

Member to make such an allegation against the Chair.

ÁÖß ¸üÖ•Ö®Öß×ŸÖ ¯ÖÏÃÖÖ¤ü: ÃÖ¸ü, ´Öê¸êü ¯ÖÖÓ“Ö ×´Ö®Ö™ü †³Öß ¿Öãºþ ÆüÖëÝÖê ®Ö?

ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¬µÖõÖ: šüßÛú Æîü…

_________________________________________________________________

* Not recorded.


130

ÁÖß ¸üÖ•Ö®Öß×ŸÖ ¯ÖÏÃÖÖ¤ü: ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¬µÖõÖ •Öß, †Ö¯Ö®Öê ´ÖãôÖê ¯ÖÖÓ“Ö ×´Ö®Ö™ü ÛúÖ ÃÖ´ÖµÖ ×¤üµÖÖ Æîü †Öî¸ü ´Öï ¯ÖÖÓ“Ö

×´Ö®Ö™ü ´Öë Æüß Ûú®Œ»Öæ›ü ÛúºÓþÝÖÖ… ÃÖ²ÖÃÖê ¯ÖÆü»Öê ŸÖÖê ´Öï ´ÖÓ¡Öß ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ ÛúÖê ¬Ö®µÖ¾ÖÖ¤ü ¤êü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÓü

×Ûú ¾ÖÆü ÃÖß†Ö¸ü¯ÖßÃÖß ´Öë ‡ÃÖ ŸÖ¸üÆü ÛúÖ †´Öë›ü´Öë™ü »ÖÖ‹ Æïü… µÖÆü †´Öë›ü´Öë™ü Ûãú”û †“”êû ÛúÖµÖÖí Ûêú

×»Ö‹ »ÖÖµÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ Æîü, ‡ÃÖ´Öë ÛúÖê‡Ô ¿ÖÛú ®ÖÆüà Æîü ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö) »Öê×Ûú®Ö ´Öï ×ÃÖ±Ôú ‹Ûú ¤üÖê ²ÖÖŸÖë Æüß

¸üÜÖ®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÓü †Öî¸ü ¿ÖÖµÖ¤ü ¾Öê ¯ÖÖÓ“Ö ×´Ö®Ö™ü ´ÖêÓ Æüß ÜÖŸ´Ö ÆüÖê •ÖÖ‹ÓÝÖß…

¯ÖÆü»Öß ²ÖÖŸÖ µÖÆü Æîü ×Ûú †Ö¯Ö ÃÖêŒ¿Ö®Ö 327 ´Öë ‹Ûú †´Öë›ü´Öë™ü »ÖÖ‹ Æïü †Öî¸ü ÃÖêŒ¿Ö®Ö 327

´Öë ™ÒüÖµÖ»Ö ÛúÖ •ÖÖê ¯ÖÏÖêÃÖß•Ö¸ü Æîü, ™ÒüÖµÖ»Ö ÛúÖ ¸êü¯Ö ¾ÖÝÖî¸üÆü Ûêú ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë •ÖÖê ¯ÖÏÖêÃÖß•Ö¸ü Æîü, ˆÃÖ´Öë †Ö¯Ö®Öê

×»ÖÜÖÖ Æîü, "provided that the ban on printing or publication of a trial

proceeding in relation to an offence of rape may be lifted" meaning

thereby ×Ûú ˆÃÖ´Öë •ÖÖê ¯Ö×²»ÖÛêú¿Ö®Ö ÛúÖ “Öî¯™ü¸ü Æîü, ˆÃÖÛúÖê †Ö¯Ö®Öê ×»Ö°™ü Ûú¸ü ×¤üµÖÖ †Öî¸ü ÛúÆüÖ

Æîü ×Ûú "subject to maintaining confidential the name and address of

parties."

psv-sss/2j ¯Ö¸ü •ÖÖ¸üß

PSV-SSS/2J/1.40

ÁÖß ¸üÖ•Ö®Öß×ŸÖ ¯ÖÏÃÖÖ¤ü (ÛÎú´ÖÖÝÖŸÖ): "Subject to maintaining confidential name and

address of the party." ¯ÖÆü»Öê ‡ÃÖ´Öë µÖÆü £ÖÖ ×Ûú "Where any proceedings are

held in Sub-Section 2, it shall not be lawful for a person to print or

publish any matter in relation to any such proceedings except with the

previous permission of the court." †Ö¯Ö®Öê ‡ÃÖÛúÖê ×»Ö±Ë™ü Ûú¸ü ×¤üµÖÖ †Öî¸ü ÛúÆüÖ ×Ûú

‡ÃÖÛúÖ name and address †Ö¯Ö ®ÖÆüà ¤êü ÃÖÛúŸÖê Æïü ²Ö×»Ûú †Ö¯Ö ™ÒüÖµÖ»Ö ÛúÖê ×®ÖÛúÖ»Ö ÃÖÛúŸÖê

Æïü, ÛúÖê‡Ô ²ÖÖŸÖ ®ÖÆüà Æîü… ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¬µÖõÖ •Öß, ´Öï †Ö¯ÖÛêú ´ÖÖ¬µÖ´Ö ÃÖê µÖÆü ÛúÆü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆæÑüÝÖÖ ×Ûú µÖÆü •ÖÖê

Œ»ÖÖò•ÖÌ Æîü, •ÖÖê ¯ÖÏÖê×¾Ö•ÖÌÖê Æîü, ¾ÖÆü ÃÖÆüß ®ÖÆüà Æîü, ²Ö×»Ûú •ÖÖê ¯ÖÆü»Öê £ÖÖ ˆÃÖß ÛúÖê ¸üÆü®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹…

Æü´ÖÖ¸üÖ trial ÛúÖ •ÖÖê procedure Æî, †ÝÖ¸ü †Ö¯Ö Ûîú´Ö¸üÖ ´Öë ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ†Öë ÛúÖ ™ÒüÖµÖ»Ö Ûú¸ü ¸üÆêü Æïü,

ŸÖÖê ˆÃÖÛêú ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë ²ÖÖÆü¸ü ®ÖÆüà ×®ÖÛú»Ö®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹ †Öî¸ü ¯ÖÆü»Öê ×®ÖÛú»ÖŸÖÖ ³Öß ®ÖÆüà £ÖÖ… ™ÒüÖµÖ»Ö •ÖÖê

ÆüÖêŸÖÖ £ÖÖ, ˆÃÖÛúÖê »ÖÖêÝÖ ¯Ö×²»Ö¿Ö ®ÖÆüà Ûú¸üŸÖê £Öê… »Öê×Ûú®Ö, †³Öß •ÖÖê †Ö¯Ö®Öê µÖÆü ¤êü ×¤üµÖÖ ×Ûú "The

offence of rape may be lifted subject to maintaining the confidentiality of


131

the name and address of the party." •Ö²Ö ™ÒüÖµÖ»Ö “Ö»ÖêÝÖÖ ŸÖÖê ®ÖÖ´Ö †Öî¸ü ¯ÖŸÖÖ ŸÖÖê

ˆÃÖ´Öë ¸üÆüŸÖÖ Æüß Æîü, ‡ÃÖÃÖê ¯ÖŸÖÖ “Ö»Ö •ÖÖ‹ÝÖÖ ×Ûú ×ÛúÃÖÛúÖ ™ÒüÖµÖ»Ö ÆüÖê ¸üÆüÖ Æîü… ¯ÖÆü»Öê ‡ÃÖÛúÖê

‹Ûú¤ü´Ö confidential ¸üÜÖÖ •ÖÖŸÖÖ £ÖÖ, ‡ÃÖ´Öë ÛúÆüà ³Öß ÛúÖê‡Ô ×¤üŒÛúŸÖ ®ÖÆüà †ÖŸÖß £Öß… †²Ö

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´Öï ‹Ûú ²ÖÖŸÖ †Öî¸ü ÛúÆü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆæÑüÝÖÖ… 164 ²Öß Ûêú ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë †Ö¯Ö®Öê ÛúÆüÖ Æîü ×Ûú ˆÃÖÛúÖ

´Ö×•ÖÃ™Òêü™ü Ûêú µÖÆüÖÑ Ã™êü™ü´Öë™ü ÆüÖêÝÖÖ †Öî¸ü ´Ö×•ÖÃ™Òêü™ü Ã™êü™ü´Öë™ü »ÖëÝÖê… †²Ö ´Öï ‹Ûú ²ÖÖŸÖ ‡ÃÖÛêú ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë

ÛúÆü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÑü, •ÖîÃÖÖ ³Ö¼ü ÃÖÖÆü²Ö ®Öê ³Öß ÛúÆüÖ ×Ûú ‹Ûú ÃÖÖ‡ÛúÖê Ã™êü™ü´Öë™ü ÆüÖêŸÖÖ Æîü… µÖÖ®Öß •ÖÖê

¯Öã×»ÖÃÖ Ûêú ÃÖÖ£Ö ¾ÖÆüÖÑ •ÖÖŸÖê Æïü, •ÖÖê ¯ÖÛú›Íê •ÖüÖŸÖê Æïü †Öî¸ü ¾ÖÆüÖÑ ¯Ö¸ü ˆ®ÖÛúÖ Ã™êü™ü´Öë™ü ×¸üÛúÖò›Ôü ÆüÖêŸÖÖ

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¸üÆüŸÖê Æïü… ´Öê¸üÖ µÖÆü ÛúÆü®ÖÖ Æîü ×Ûú ‡ÃÖ´Öë ÛúÖê‡Ô ™üÖ‡´Ö ÝÖî¯Ö ¤êü®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹… †ÝÖ¸ü ™üÖ‡´Ö ÝÖî¯Ö ®ÖÆüà

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ˆÃÖÛúÖê •Öê»Ö ´Öë ³Öê•Ö®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹ †Öî¸ü •ÖÖê Ã™êü™ü´Öë™ü ¾ÖÆü ¤êü ¸üÆüÖ Æîü, ˆÃÖÛúß ‹Ûú ÛúÖò¯Öß ˆÃÖÛúÖê ¤êü®Öß

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retract Ûú¸êü µÖÖ †¯Öß»Ö Ûú¸êü ×Ûú Æü´Ö®Öê µÖÆü ¤ü²ÖÖ¾Ö ´Öë ×¤üµÖÖ £ÖÖ ŸÖÖê ˆÃÖ´Öë ‹Ûú ‹êÃÖÖ ¯ÖÏÖê×¾Ö•Ö®Ö

ÆüÖê®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹… ŸÖ³Öß •ÖÖê ‹ŒµÖæ•›ü Æîü, •ÖÖê †¯Ö®ÖÖ Ã™êü™ü´Öë™ü ¤êü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ Æîü, ˆÃÖÛúÖê ‹êÃÖÖ »ÖÝÖêÝÖÖ

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132

Ûú¸ü ÃÖÛúŸÖê Æïü, retract Ûú¸ü ÃÖÛúŸÖê Æïü… ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ ´Öê¸üß µÖÆü ¸üÖµÖ Æîü ×Ûú ‡ÃÖ´Öë ‹êÃÖÖ ÛúÖê‡Ô ¯ÖÏÖê×¾Ö•Ö®Ö

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†ÓŸÖ ´Öë “ÖæÑ×Ûú 5 ×´Ö®Ö™ü ÛúÖ ÃÖ´ÖµÖ Æîü †Öî¸ü ‹Ûú-¤üÖê ×´Ö®Ö™ü ŸÖÖê ´Öê¸üÖ ‹êÃÖê Æüß “Ö»ÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ ´Öï

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¸üÆêü… (2Ûêú/‹“Ö0‹´Ö0‹ÃÖ0 ¯Ö¸ü †ÖÝÖê)

2K/HMS-NBR/1.45

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threatening ÆüÖêÝÖß… ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ¯ÖÆü»Öê ŸÖÖê Æü´Ö tampering of evidence Ûêú ×»Ö‹ ¤ü¸üÜ¾ÖÖÃŸÖ

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133

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Æîü, »Öê×Ûú®Ö ´Öï µÖÆü ³Öß ÛúÆü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆæÓüÝÖß ×Ûú µÖÆü ¯ÖÏµÖÖÃÖ Æüß ®ÖÆüà ¸üÆëü ²Ö×»Ûú ‡®ÖÛúÖ Ûú›ÍüÖ‡Ô ÃÖê ¯ÖÖ»Ö®Ö

ÆüÖê †Öî¸ ü‡®Ö ¯Ö¸ü ®Ö•Ö¸ü ¸üÜÖß •ÖÖ®Öß “ÖÖ×Æü‹…

(ÁÖß ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ ¯ÖßšüÖÃÖß®Ö Æãü‹)

´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ´ÖãôÖê »ÖÝÖŸÖÖ Æîü ×Ûú µÖÆü ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê¬Ö®Ö ×¾Ö¬ÖêµÖÛú ¯Öæ¸üß ÃÖÖê“Ö †Öî¸ü ÃÖ´ÖôÖ Ûêú ÃÖÖ£Ö ®ÖÆüà

»ÖÖµÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ Æîü ŒµÖÖë×Ûú ‡ÃÖ ´Öë 1973 ´Öë ¤Óü›ü ¯ÖÏ×ÛÎúµÖÖ ÃÖÓ×ÆüŸÖÖ ´Öë •ÖÖê ¾µÖÖ¯ÖÛú ¯Ö×¸ü¾ÖŸÖÔ®Ö ×Ûú‹ ÝÖ‹

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†Ö¾Ö¿µÖÛúŸÖÖ†Öë ÛúÖê ¯Öæ¸üÖ ®ÖÆüà Ûú¸üŸÖÖ Æîü… ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, 5 ¾ÖÂÖÖí ´Öë ‡ÃÖ ´Öë ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê¬Ö®Ö Ûêú ×»Ö‹ 3

ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê¬Ö®Ö ×¾Ö¬ÖêµÖÛú ¯Öê¿Ö ×Ûú‹ •ÖÖ “ÖãÛêú Æïü - ¯ÖÆü»ÖÖ ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê¬Ö®Ö ×¾Ö¬ÖêµÖÛú 2003 ´Öë †ÖµÖÖ ×•ÖÃÖ ¯Ö¸ü

ÃÖÓÃÖ¤üßµÖ ÃÖ×´Ö×ŸÖ Ûúß ‹Ûú ×™ü¯¯ÖÞÖß Æîü, ´Öï †Ö¯Ö Ûúß †®Öã´Ö×ŸÖ ÃÖê ÃÖÓÃÖ¤üßµÖ ÃÖ×´Ö×ŸÖ Ûúß ˆÃÖ ×™ü¯¯ÖÞÖß

ÛúÖê ¿Ö²¤ü¿Ö: ÛúÖê™ü Ûú¸ü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖß ÆæÓü:

"The Committee is very keen of revamping Criminal Justice System and

feel that the Government should attempt to bring a comprehensive Bill,

particularly, in the light of Reports of various Commissions, Committees

and Studies on the Criminal Justice System. The Committee is of the

view that if that takes a long time, then, at least, the Code of Criminal

Procedure (Amendment) Bill, 1994, and the present Bill may be merged

and a composite Bill be introduced in Parliament, rather than introducing

piecemeal legislation separately. Deliberations took place in the


134

Committee on the urgent need for introducing policy reforms in the light

of widespread allegations of corruption, inaction and politicisation of

police force."

(CONTD. BY USY "2L")

2K/KLG-USY/1.50

SHRIMATI MAYA SINGH (CONTD.): The Committee urges the

Government for immediate initiation of measures for reforming the police

system in the country." ÃÖ×´Ö×ŸÖ Ûúß µÖÆü ×ÃÖ±úÖ×¸ü¿Ö ¾ÖÂÖÔ 2005 Ûúß Æîü †Öî¸ü ´ÖãôÖê »ÖÝÖŸÖÖ Æîü

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²ÖÖ¤ü ×±ú¸ü ‡ÃÖ´Öë ‹Ûú ¤æüÃÖ¸üÖ ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê¬Ö®Ö ¾ÖÂÖÔ 2006 ´Öë Æüß »ÖÖµÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ… ‡ÃÖ ŸÖ¸üÆü ¤üÖê ¾ÖÂÖÔ ŸÖÛú µÖÆü

ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê¬Ö®Ö ÆüÖ‡²Ö¸ü®Öê¿Ö®Ö ´Öë ¯Ö›ÍüÖ ¸üÆüÖ †Öî¸ü †²Ö ¾ÖÂÖÔ 2008 Ûêú †ÓŸÖ ´Öë µÖÆü Æü´ÖÖ¸êü ÃÖÖ´Ö®Öê Æîü… ‡ÃÖ´Öë

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Æü›Íü²Ö›Íüß ´Öë ¾ÖÆü ‡ÃÖ ×¾Ö¬ÖêµÖÛú ÛúÖê ¯ÖÖ×¸üŸÖ Ûú¸ü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖß Æîü?

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ˆ¢Ö¸ü ´Öë Ã¾ÖµÖÓ ÃÖ¸üÛúÖ¸ü ®Öê ÛúÆüÖ £ÖÖ ×Ûú ´ÖÖ¬Ö¾Ö ´Öê®Ö®Ö ÃÖ×´Ö×ŸÖ Ûúß ×ÃÖ±úÖ×¸ü¿ÖÖë ¯Ö¸ü ¸üÖ•µÖ-ÃÖ¸üÛúÖ¸üÖë

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‡ÃÖß ¯ÖÏ¿®Ö Ûêú ˆ¢Ö¸ü ´Öë †ÖÝÖê ²ÖŸÖÖµÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ ×Ûú ¯ÖÖÓ“Ö ¸üÖ•µÖÖë Ûúß ÃÖ¸üÛúÖ¸üÖë ®Öê ŸÖÖê †¯Ö®ÖÖ †×³Ö´ÖŸÖ ¤êü

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ÃÖê µÖê ÃÖÖ¸üß ²ÖÖŸÖë •ÖÖ®Ö®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖß ÆæÑü…


135

ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ²ÖÖ¸ü-²ÖÖ¸ü ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê¬Ö®Ö »ÖÖ®Öê ÃÖê •ÖÆüÖÓ ÃÖ¸üÛúÖ¸ü Ûúß ‡ÃÖ ×¾ÖÂÖµÖ

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†Öî¸ü †¤üÖ»ÖŸÖÖë ´Öë ³Öß Ûú®°µÖæ•Ö®Ö Ûúß ×Ã£Ö×ŸÖ ˆŸ¯Ö®®Ö ÆüÖêŸÖß Æîü… •ÖÖê ³Öß ÆüÖê, ‡ÃÖ ŸÖ¸üßÛêú Ûêú µÖÆü

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†¯Ö®Öß ²ÖÖŸÖ ¸üÜÖ ¤üß Æîü, ´Öï ×ÃÖ±Ôú ‡ŸÖ®ÖÖ ÛúÆü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖß ÆæÑü ×Ûú ‡ÃÖ´Öë Ûãú”û ¯ÖÏÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö, Ûãú”û ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê¬Ö®Ö

‹êÃÖê Æïü, ×•Ö®ÖÛúÖ ´Öï ÃÖ´Ö£ÖÔ®Ö Ûú¸üŸÖß ÆæÑü, Ã¾ÖÖÝÖŸÖ Ûú¸üŸÖß ÆæÑü, ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß Ûêú ¯ÖÏ×ŸÖ ¬Ö®µÖ¾ÖÖ¤ü óÖÖ×¯ÖŸÖ

Ûú¸üŸÖß ÆæÑü, •ÖÆüÖÓ ŸÖÛú ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ ¯ÖõÖ ÛúÖ ÃÖ¾ÖÖ»Ö Æîü, »Öê×Ûú®Ö Ûãú”û ´Öë ‹êÃÖß ×Ã£Ö×ŸÖ Æîü, ×•Ö®Ö ¯Ö¸ü ´Öï

´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß ÃÖê ÛúÆü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆæÓüÝÖß ×Ûú ‡®Ö ¯Ö¸ü Ûú›Íüß ®Ö•Ö¸ü ¸üÜÖß •ÖÖ‹ †Öî¸ü ˆ®ÖÛúÖ ¯ÖÖ»Ö®Ö šüßÛú, †“”êû

ŸÖ¸üßÛêú ÃÖê ÆüÖê, ‡ÃÖ ¯Ö¸ü ¬µÖÖ®Ö ¤êü®Öê Ûúß •Öºþ¸üŸÖ Æîü…

†Ö¯Ö®Öê ´ÖãôÖê ²ÖÖê»Ö®Öê Ûêú ×»Ö‹ •ÖÖê †¾ÖÃÖ¸ü ×¤üµÖÖ, ˆÃÖÛêú ×»Ö‹ ´Öï †Ö¯ÖÛúÖ ¬Ö®µÖ¾ÖÖ¤ü

óÖÖ×¯ÖŸÖ Ûú¸üŸÖß ÆæÑü… ¬Ö®µÖ¾ÖÖ¤ü…

(ÃÖ´ÖÖ¯ŸÖ)

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT (WEST BENGAL): Sir, since my colleague

has already spoken on the major aspects of the Bill, I am not going to

repeat them. I am just going to confine myself to certain issues

concerning women.

I welcome the special provisions made for the protection of

women in the various sections of the Bill. But I would like to urge upon

the hon. Home Minister that since he has just taken over this office, he

would not be aware that women's organizations have worked very hard

for a comprehensive Bill on sexual assault. The present Criminal

Procedure Code, and even the amendments that are being moved

today, deal with this issue in a piecemeal manner. After studying the

international law, we want a comprehensive law on sexual assault,

dealing with different degrees of sexual assault. I think, if that could be

considered, then, these various provisions, which are being brought in


136

the Bill, could be put together. It would have a salutary effect to deal

with the increasing crime against women. So, that is my first request

which I would like to make to the hon. Minister.

Then, my major problem with these amendments is on the issue

of making some of the crimes against women as compoundable crimes.

There is a view in the society, which we have been fighting against, and

it used to be a prevalent view, that what happens within the domestic

sphere is a private matter to be dealt with between the husband and the

wife or those who have perpetuated violence against violence. And, this

was the prevailing patriarchal notion for which reason much of the

violence against women, within the home, was really never taken up as

a social crime.

(Contd. by 2m -- VP)

VP/1.55/2M

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT (CONTD.): And, women suffered as a result

of it. I think, our enlightened lawmakers in the Indian Parliament,

recognising the social implications of such crimes against

women...(Interruptions).. Sir, it is very disturbing for a speaker when all

are coming and going. It is very disturbing. I cannot speak in such a

situation.

Sir, it was the progressive outlook of our lawmakers which

accepted this struggle of women's movements and brought many of

these crimes, which were hitherto hidden, into the public domain. They,

in fact, recognised all aspects of crimes against women as social crimes

in which the State and society have a role to ensure that they are not

committed.


137

Now, there is this whole issue of making these crimes

compoundable. Everyone knows that for compounding of an offence,

there are two tables in the Criminal Procedure Code. The first table lists

certain crimes in which even after a complaint is made or an FIR is filed,

if the two parties come to an agreement of withdrawing a case, then,

that case gets withdrawn. And in dealing with this, the One Hundred

and Fifty Fourth Commission said, "The rationale for compounding of

offences is that the chastened attitude of the accused and the

praiseworthy attitude of the complainant in order to restore peace and

harmony in society must be given effect to in the composition of

offences." Now, unfortunately, according to the experience of women,

this kind of an understanding is completely divorced from the reality that

women face because it is precisely violence which is destroying peace

and harmony in our society. And, in a situation where relationship

between the person perpetrating violence and the victim of that violence

is unequal, then, very often, the compounding of an offence in an

unequal relationship forces, and is an instrument of coercion, to

compound the offence. We have tried it. And, this is one of the very

important struggles of our movement. Please don't dilute the crime by

making it a personal crime and making it compoundable. Therefore, I

was very distressed to see that in a report in which so many important

provisions have been made for the protection of women, this aspect has

also been added. Therefore, I have moved amendments on some of

these aspects. The first one is this. It is a very, very important one. It

deals with section 324: voluntarily causing hurt by dangerous weapons

or means. It says, "Whoever, except in the case provided by section


138

334, voluntarily causes hurt by means of any instrument for shooting,

stabbing, or cutting or any instrument which, used as weapon of

offence, is likely to cause death or by means of fire or any heated

substance.." Now, we have had such cases. Everybody knows this

whole phenomenon of death by burning. If you are going to bring

section 324, which is often used in such cases, into a compoundable

offence -- you are introducing it in the first table -- I think, it is going to

be extremely unjustifiable. Therefore, I urge upon the hon. Home

Minister, please don't do this and please remove this from the

compoundable crimes. And, the other amendment which I moved is

this.

(Continued by PB/2N)

PB/2N/2.00

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT (CONTD.): Then, there is Section 312.

Section 312 deals with the crime which concerns miscarriage and

causing miscarriage of a woman. That is now being brought into a

compoundable crime. I think this is absolutely unacceptable. We have

the Termination of Pregnancy Act, which is an Act on its own. It gives a

right to abortion for a woman. We support the right to abortion. But, at

the same time, 'causing miscarriage' and to make 'causing miscarriage'

compoundable, I think, is not something which can be accepted.

Then, we have Section 406. As everyone knows, 406 is more often

than not used as a criminal breach of trust which is used in retrieving

dowry in cases where the dowry is not being returned to a woman who

has been abandoned or deserted, and, in many of those cases also,

Section 406 is used. The present 406 is in Table 2. I would request that


139

the status quo is maintained and this should not be shifted to Table 1

where only the two parties can do it.

Similarly, Sir, the other very important amendments, which I have

moved, refer to the issue of sexual harassment. Now, 354 is a very

serious crime and if you look at the rate of crime of the increase in this,

you will find that in 2005, there were 34,000 cases registered; in 2006,

there were 36,000 cases registered; and, in 2007, there were almost

39,000 cases registered, just below 39,000 cases. So, this is a very

serious crime. It is already there in Table 2 but I would really request the

Home Minister to delete it from the compoundable offences so that the

seriousness of the crime can be recognised by the society and action

taken.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: How much more time do you need?

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, I have finished. I have just got one

more amendment.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Why I am asking this is because we have to

take the other Bill at 2 o'clock.

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, I have finished. Then, as far as

compensation is concerned, we have moved a draft which is before the

Home Ministry which concerns acid attacks on women and other attacks

like that; and we have asked for a separate Commission to be set up for

compensation both at the Centre and in the States. In this amendment,

what they are suggesting is that the District Legal Service Authority or

the State Legal Service Authority should be the Committee which can

decide on the compensation. If it is possible -- I mean, I don't accept

the Home Minister to immediately respond now -- and if he could


140

consider that we require a separate Committee to deal with this issue of

compensation, it would be really helpful. Sir, why I am saying so is

because along with acid attacks, many courts are suggesting that a

State not give compensation but different types of victims of violence

among women should also be given some kind of rehabilitation. So, I

think, it would be very helpful to women if a separate Committee could

be set up. That would be something which would be very helpful to

women. (Ends)

BILLS INTRODUCED

THE CENTRAL INDUSTRIAL SECURITY FORCE (AMENDMENT) BILL,

2008


beg to move for leave to introduce a Bill further to amend the Central

Industrial Security Force Act, 1968.

The question was put and the motion was adopted.

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, I introduce the Bill. (Ends)

(Followed by 2o/SKc)

2o/2.05/skc-vnk

THE RAILWAY PROPERTY (UNLAWFUL POSSESSION) AMENDMENT BILL, 2008

¸êü»Ö ´ÖÓ¡Öß (ÁÖß »ÖÖ»Öæ ¯ÖÏÃÖÖ¤) : ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ´Öï ¯ÖÏÃŸÖÖ¾Ö Ûú¸üŸÖÖ ÆæÑü,

×Ûú ¸êü»Ö ÃÖÓ¯Ö×¢Ö (×¾Ö×¬Ö ×¾Ö¹ý¨ü Ûú²•ÖÌÖ) †×¬Ö×®ÖµÖ´Ö, 1966 ÛúÖ †Öî¸ü ÃÖÓ¿ÖÖê¬Ö®Ö Ûú¸ü®Öê Ûêú

×»Ö‹ ‹Ûú ×¾Ö¬ÖêµÖÛúú ÛúÖê ¯Öã¸ü:Ã£ÖÖ×¯ÖŸÖ Ûú¸ü®Öê Ûúß †®Öã´Ö×ŸÖ ¤üß •ÖÖ‹…


ÁÖß »ÖÖ»Öæ ¯ÖÏÃÖÖ¤ü : ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ´Öï ×¾Ö¬ÖêµÖÛú ÛúÖê ¯Öã¸ü:Ã£ÖÖ×¯ÖŸÖ Ûú¸üŸÖÖ ÆæÓü… (Ends)


141

PAPERS LAID ON THE TABLE (CONTD.)

SUPPLEMENTARY DEMANDS FOR GRANTS (GENERAL) 2008-2009

THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF PARLIAMENTARY

AFFAIRS (SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY): Sir, on behalf of my colleague,

Shri Pawan Kumar Bansal, I beg to lay on the Table a statement (in

English and Hindi) showing the Second Batch of the Supplementary

Demands for Grants (General) for the year 2008-09. (Ends)

ÁÖß »ÖÖ»Öæ ¯ÖÏÃÖÖ¤ü : ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ´Öê¸üÖ supplementary ¯ÖÆü»Öê ÆüÖê “ÖãÛúÖ Æîü…

ÁÖß ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ : ÆüÖÓ, ¾ÖÆü ÆüÖê ÝÖµÖÖ Æîü, Ûãú”û reverse Æãü†Ö £ÖÖ, ˆÃÖÛúÖê reverse Ûú¸ü »Öê®ÖÖ

£ÖÖ…

ÁÖß »ÖÖ»Öæ ¯ÖÏÃÖÖ¤ü : ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ÃÖ²Ö correct ÆüÖê ÝÖµÖÖ Æîü…

DISCUSSION ON THE CODE OF CRIMINAL PROCEDURE (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2006 (Contd.)


am grateful to the seven hon. Members who have participated in this

debate on amendment to the Criminal Procedure Code.

Sir, at the outset, I wish to say that this exercise has been gone

through rather elaborately by the Committee and we have accepted

many of the suggestions made by the Committee. The Criminal

Procedure code is amended from time to time. I don't think there would

ever be a point of time when we can say that all the amendments

required to be carried out in the Code have been carried out and

nothing more needs to be done, because as we live and learn, the Code

has to be amended from time to time. Therefore, there are some

amendments which have not yet been proposed and some amendments

of the Committee which have not been accepted by the Government. I


142

would like to request hon. Members to show some forbearance because

as time goes on, many of these amendments can be considered again

in greater depth and accepted.

Sir, these amendments which have been introduced today are

based on suggestions made by the Law Commission in its 154th and

177th Reports and these Reports have been studied and examined in

consultation with the State Governments. The matter was examined by a

group of officers and then the Bill was introduced in 2006 in the Rajya

Sabha. I don't need to go into the various provisions which have been

introduced; they are there before the House. An important feature of the

Bill relates to what is called "victimology". Provisions are being made

that the victim of a crime can also engage an advocate of his or her

choice to assist an investigation. A scheme is being formulated to

provide compensation to victims of crimes. One of the most important

features of the amending Bill is the provision of protection to women. It

has been proposed that all rape cases, as far as practicable, would be

tried in the court of a woman judge. I take note of what the hon.

Member said. It may not be possible to have a woman judge in every

court where rape cases are tried. Therefore, the Section says, 'as far as

practicable'. The medical examination for arrested women would be

done only by or under the supervision of a female medical practitioner.

Investigation in cases of rape has to be conducted at the residence of

the victim, as far as practicable, by a woman police officer, and all these

provisions have been made. Granting frequent adjournments is a major

cause of delay. Belonging to that profession, I am willing to plead guilty

for that. Therefore, I think we have to put a lid on adjournments. Many,


143

many years ago, when a criminal trial started, it cannot be interrupted.

When PW1 goes into the box, until arguments commence, there can be

no adjournments at all. Today we find PW1 examined by one judge and

PW2 being examined by another judge six months later. That is hardly

conducive to a fair trial of a criminal case. Therefore, I think the stricter

provisions that we have introduced are correct. Although Mr. Bhatia

pointed out that it could work hardship, I think some discipline has to

come, both in the engagement of lawyers and in the acceptance of

briefs. (Contd. by 2p/hk)

HK/2p/2.10

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM (CONTD.): Pendency in court is also a major

cause, which has been engaging the attention of the Government, while

other measures are being taken by the Law Ministry through this Bill.

Some more offences are being made compoundable. I take note of

what Shrimati Karat has said and I will, when she moves amendment,

respond to that appropriately. I have discussed the matter with her.

Special provisions are being made through this Bill for enquiry and trial

of persons with unsound mind. They should also get a fair trial.

Another issue that has caught the imagination of people relates to video

conferencing. I was a little disappointed or maybe surprised that Mr.

Bhatia opposed audio-video recordings. I think this has now come to

stay world over. Audio-video recordings are routinely made, and I think

we should also introduce this into our criminal justice system. As I said,

the Bill was introduced on the 23rd of August 2006; the Standing

Committee submitted its Report on 16th August, 2007. We have


144

examined the suggestions. Many suggestions have been accepted. It

has not been possible to accept some suggestions. I regret that. But

that does not mean that chapter is closed. We still have an open mind.

We can examine that once again. I think amendments which are made

are steps in a positive direction which will help to make the Criminal

Procedure Code more humane to law-abiding citizens but more difficult

for those who try to violate the law. With these words, Sir, I commend

the Bill to this House and request that the Bill be passed. There are a

number of official amendments. In fact, there are more official

amendments than private Members' amendments as a result of which

many of the provisions originally introduced are being dropped. As we

come to them, I will say which are the provisions being dropped and the

original provision in the Cr. P.C. is being restored. So, much of the

debate is really answered with official amendments. I request that

amendments be taken up. I will respond to her amendments as she

moves them.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, the question is:

"That the Bill further to amend the Code of Criminal `Procedure,

1973 be taken into consideration."

The motion was adopted.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: We shall now take up clause-by-clause

consideration of the Bill.

We shall now take up clause 2. In clause 2, there are three

amendments (Nos. 3 to 5) by the hon. Minister.

Clause 2 -Amendment of Section 2


145

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, I move:

3. That at page 1, for lines 8 and 9, the following be substituted,

namely:-

"principal Act), after clause (w), the following clause shall be

inserted, namely:-

4. That at page 1, lines 10 and 11, be deleted.

5. That at page 2, lines 1 and 2, be deleted.

The questions were put and the motions were adopted.

Clause 2, as amended, was added to the Bill.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: We shall now take up clause 3. In clause 3,

there is one amendment (No.6) by the hon. Minister.

Clause 3 - Amendment of Section 24


6. That at page 2, lines 6 and 7, for the words "co-ordinate with

the prosecution in consultation with the Central Government or

the State Government, as the case may be,", the words "assist

the prosecution", be substituted.



Clause 4 was added to the Bill.


there are four amendments (Nos.7 to 10) by the hon. Minister.


146

Clause 5 - Amendment of Section 41.


147


7. That at page 2, line 18, for the words "credible information has

been received", the words "a reasonable complaint has been

made, or credible information has been received, or a

reasonable suspicion exists"; be substituted.

8. That at page 2, line 20, for the words "which may extend to

seven years", the words "which may be less than seven years

or which may extend to seven years" be substituted.

9. That at page 2, lines 22 and 23, for the words "that

information", the words "such complaint, information, or

suspicion"; be substituted.

10. That at page 2, for lines 27 to 29, the following be substituted,

namely:-

"(b) for proper investigation of the offence; or";




there is one amendment (No.11) by the hon. Minister.

Clause 6- Insertion of new sections 41A, 41B, 41C and 41D.



namely:-

"41A.(1) The police officer may, in all cases where the arrest

of a person is not required under the provisions of section

41(1), issue a notice directing the person against whom a


148

reasonable complaint has been made, or credible information

has been received, or a reasonable suspicion exists that he has

committed a cognizable offence, to appear before him or at

such other place as may be specified in the notice.".





there are five amendments (Nos.12 to 16) by the hon. Minister.

Clause 8 - Substitution of new section for section 54. Examination of

arrested person by medical practitioner.


12. That at page 4, in the marginal heading, for the words "medical

practitioner", the words "medical officer", be substituted.

13. That at page 4, lines 10 and 11, for the words "registered

medical practitioner", the words "medical officer in the service

of Central or State Government, and in case the medical officer

is not available, by a registered medical practitioner"; be

substituted.

14. That at page 4, lines 13 and 14, for the words "female

registered medical practitioner", the words "female medical

officer, and in case the female medical officer is not available, a

female registered medical practitioner"; be substituted.


149

15. That at page 4, line 15, for the words "registered medical

practitioner", the words "medical officer or a registered medical

practitioner"; be substituted.

16. That at page 4, line 20, for the words "medical practitioner", the

words "medical officer or registered medical practitioner, as the

case may be,"; be substituted.



Clauses 9 and 10 were added to the Bill.

(Contd. by KSK/2q)

KSK/2.15/2Q

CLAUSE 11 - AMENDMENT OF SECTION 157 MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, we shall take up clause 11. There is

one amendment - Amendment No.17. Hon. Minister to move the

amendment.



namely:-

"Provided further that in relation to an offence of rape,

the recording of statement of the victim shall be conducted at the

residence of the victim or in the place of her choice and as far as

practicable by a woman police officer in the presence of her

parents or guardian or near relatives or social worker of the

locality.".


150

The question was put and the motion was adopted. Clause 11, as amended, was added to the Bill.

CLAUSE 12 - AMENDMENT OF SECTION 161 MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, we shall take up clause 12. There are

two amendments - amendments No. 18 and 19. Hon. Minister to move

the amendments.


18. That at page 4, lines 40 to 43, be deleted.


The questions were put and the motions were adopted. Clause 12, as amended, was added to the Bill.

CLAUSE 13 - SUBSTITUTION OF NEW SECTION FOR SECTION 162 MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, we shall take up clause 13. There is


amendment.


20. That at page 5, clause 13, be deleted.



CLAUSE 15 - INSERTION OF NEW SECTION 164B MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, we shall take up clause 15. There is


amendment.


21. That at pages 5 and 6, clause 15, be deleted.


151


Clauses 16 to 21 were added to the Bill.

CLAUSE 22 - OMISSION OF SECTIONS 251 TO 259 MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, we shall take up clause 22. There is


amendment.






amendment.






amendment.


24. That at pages 7 and 8, clause 24, be deleted.

The question was put and the motion was adopted. Clause 24, as amended, was added to the Bill. CLAUSE 25 - AMENDMENT OF SECTION 263


152

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, we shall take up clause 25. There is


amendment.




CLAUSE 26 - AMENDMENT OF SECTION 274 MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, we shall take up clause 26. There is


amendment.





CLAUSE 28 - AMENDMENT OF SECTION 309 MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, we shall take up clause 28. There are

two amendments - Amendments No.27 and 28. Hon. Minister to move

the amendments.



28. That at page 9, line 6, for the bracket and alphabet "(d)", the bracket and alphabet "(c)", be substituted.

The questions were put and the motions were adopted. Clause 28, as amended, was added to the Bill.

Clause 29 was added to the Bill. (followed by 2r - gsp)


153


154

GSP-MCM/2.20/2R SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, there are a number of amendments to

Clause 30. The official amendments are amendment nos. 29 and 42.

We can take amendment no. 42 later. You please call amendment no.

29 now.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: We can take amendment nos. 29 and 42

together.

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: No, no. Actually, amendment no. 42 is really

following Mrs. Karat's amendment.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No, but her amendments are from 35 to 40.

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: I know, but amendment no. 42 follows her

amendment. Therefore, my request is to please take amendment no. 29

first, then, you can take from amendment no. 30 onwards. Then, we will

come to amendment no. 42.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Okay.

CLAUSE 30 - AMENDMENT OF SECTION 320 SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, I beg to move amendment no. 29 to

Clause 30. Sir, I move:

That at page 11, line 20, for the word "Ditto", the words "the

husband of the woman and the woman", be substituted.


SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Now, Sir, you may kindly take up

amendments no. 35 to 40, one by one. I am accepting some, and, if I

am not accepting, I will explain that to her.


155

Sir, with regard to amendment no. 35, at page 9, she wants

'inclusion of Section 324 as a compoundable offence' to be deleted. I

accept that amendment. Therefore, you can put that first to vote.

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, I move:

That at page 9, lines 29-30 be deleted.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I shall now put the amendment no. 35 moved

by Shrimati Brinda...(Interruptions)...

DR. K. KESHAVA RAO: Sir, it is already there. (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Wait. Wait. (Interruptions) Don't confuse.

DR. K. KESHAVA RAO: Where is the confusion, Sir? There is a

section..(Interruptions)...

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: This amendment is to Clause 30 that at

page 9, lines 29-30 be deleted. It concerns section 324, which I just

read out. But you were not in the House at that time.

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Let me explain, Sir. Under the present

Criminal Procedure Code, Sections 323 and 334 are compoundable in

Table 1. Section 324 is not compoundable. We are introducing Section

324 as compoundable. A case is being made that Section 324 should not

be made compoundable because Section 324 is an offence of voluntary

causing hurt by dangerous weapons or means. I accept Mrs. Karat's

case that Section 324 should not be compoundable. Therefore, the

amendment may be accepted.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Okay. Now, I shall now put amendment no.

35 moved by Shrimati Brinda Karat to vote.



156

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, next is the amendment no. 36, which also

I accept.

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, this is amendment No. 36 that in clause

30, page 10, lines 5 to 7 be deleted.

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, if I may respond to it, this relates to

Section 406, Criminal Breach of Trust. It is now in Table 2. It is being

brought into Table 1. She says, let it remain in Table 2. I accept it.

Let it remain in Table 2. We may take it out of Table 1.

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Thank you, Sir. I am grateful to the

Minister. (interruptions) Sir, now, since the Minister has said that he is

going to keep the status-quo...(Interruptions)...

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, I move:

That at page 10, lines 5 to 7, be deleted.


SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, regarding amendment no. 37, in view of

the Minister's official amendment on this clause, I do not want to press

this amendment.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Okay, amendment no. 37 is not pressed.

(Contd. by YSR-2S)

-GSP/YSR/2.25/2S

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT (CONTD.): Sir, I am pressing for

Amendment No.38.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Yes, you can press it.

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, I beg to move:

That at page 12, lines 7 and 8, be deleted.


157

This relates to Section 312, that is, causing miscarriage to a

woman. I have already moved the amendment. In my speech I

explained it. I move that amendment.


SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, I am unable to accept this amendment for

the following reason.

Section 312 is about causing miscarriage and if I may read Section

312 with the IPC, 'causing miscarriage whoever causes a woman with

child to miscarry, shall, if such miscarriage be not caused in good faith

be punished.'

Section 313 is, causing miscarriage without woman's consent.

Whoever commits the offence defined in the last preceding section shall

be punished if it is done without a woman's consent.

Section 314 provides for with woman's consent. The problem

about miscarriage is that it can happen in a variety of ways. And I am

told that it is difficult to pinpoint whether the miscarriage was a natural

miscarriage or a miscarriage deliberately caused. Therefore, the

recommendation is that if a miscarriage has been caused under Section

312, if the woman consents, it can be compounded with the permission

of the court, because this occurs in table 2 not in table 1. Therefore,

first you must have the consent of the woman, and, secondly, it must

be with the permission of the court. I think arguments can be made on

both the sides. But I would appeal to Shrimati Brinda Karat that since it

is in table 2, it has to be with the consent of the woman and it is with

the permission of the court. Let it remain as it is as we have introduced

by way of an amendment.


158

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, I withdraw my amendment.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Amendment No.38 is not pressed.

Amendment (No.38) was, by leave, withdrawn.

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, in Section 354, I press to move the

amendment No.39.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Yes, you can press it.

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Sir, I beg to move:



SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: I accept your amendment. You may kindly

put amendment No.39 to vote. I accept your amendment.

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: You are a much better Home Minister than

you were a Finance Minister. Sir, I have to congratulate him.

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: I don't know whether I am a much better

Home Minister, but she is more reasonable in talking about criminal law

than financial matters.

SHRI AMAR SINGH: Sir, today, it is Mr. Chidambaram's turn to give her

a backhanded compliment.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I shall now put amendment No. 39 moved by

Shrimati Brinda Karat to vote. The question is:



MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Are you pressing for Amendment No.40?

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: I am not pressing, Sir.

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: She is not pressing it, Sir.


159

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now amendment No.41.

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, I will explain it.

The District Legal Service Authority and the State Legal Service

Authority have a woman member. Therefore, let us leave it there at that

and we will see it later.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: So, are you withdrawing?

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: Yes, Sir.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Amendment No.41 is not pressed.

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, I am moving Amendment No.42. I have

given notice of amendment No.42 to restore 406 to table 2.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You can move it.

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, I beg to move:

42. That at page 12 after line 24 the following be inserted namely:-

"Criminal breach of trust 406 The owner of property in

respect of trust has been

committed.


Clause 31 was added to the Bill. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: In Clause 32, there is one amendment No.30.

Clause -32 Amendment of Section 328


30. That at page 13, after line 22, the following be inserted, namely:-

"Provided that if the accused is aggrieved by the information given by the psychiatric or clinical psychologist, as the case may be, to the Magistrate, he may prefer an appeal before the Medical Board which shall consist of- (a) head of psychiatry unit in the nearest government


160

hospital; and (b) a faculty member in psychiatry in the nearest medical college."


Clause 32, as amended, was added to the Bill. (Followed by VKK/2T)

-YSR/VKK/2T/2.30

Clause 33 -- Amendment of Section 329

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: In Clause 33, there are two Amendments (No.31

and 32) by the Minister.

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, I move the following Amendments (No.31 and

32):

31. That at page 14, after line 3, the following be inserted, namely: -

"Provided that if the accused is aggrieved by the information

given by the psychiatric or clinical psychologist, as the case may

be, to the Magistrate, he may prefer an appeal before the

Medical Board which shall consist of -

(a) head of psychiatry unit in the nearest government hospital;

and

(b) a faculty member in psychiatry in the nearest medical

college.";

32. That at page 14, line 11, for the words "Magistrate of Court", the

words "Magistrate or Court" be substituted.


Clause 34 added to the Bill.


161

Clause 35 -- Amendment of Section 344

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: In Clause 35, there is one Amendment

(No.33) by the Minister.

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, I move the following Amendment (No.33):



Clause 36 -- Insertion of new Section 344A


(No.34) by the Minister.






(No.41) by Smt. Brinda Karat. Are you moving?

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: I am not pressing.

Clause 37 was added to the Bill. Clause 1 -- Short Title and Commencement

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: In Clause 1, there is one Amendment (No.2)

by the Minister.



162

2. That at page 1, line 3, for the figure "2006", the figure "2008", be

substituted.


Enacting Formula MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: In the Enacting Formula, there is one

Amendment (No.1) by the Minister.


1. That at page 1, line 1, for the word "Fifty-seventh", the word "Fifty-

ninth" be substituted.

The question was put and the motion was adopted. Enacting Formula, as amended, was added to the Bill.

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, the Bill, as amended, be passed.


(Ends)

ALLOCATION OF TIME FOR DISPOSAL OF GOVERNMENT AND OTHER BUSINESS

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I have to inform Members that the Business

Advisory Committee in its meeting held today, the 18th December, 2008,

has allotted time for the Government Legislative Business as follows: -

BUSINESS TIME ALLOTTED

1. Consideration and passing of the following Bills: -

(114) The Information Technology (Amendment)

Bill, 2006.

Two Hours


163

(115) The National Investigation Agency Bill, 2008

as passed by Lok Sabha.

(116) The Unlawful Activities (Prevention)

Amendment Bill, 2008 as passed by Lok

Sabha.

Six Hours

(To be

discussed

together)

2. Consideration and return of the following Bills, after

they are passed by Lok Sabha: -

(20) Appropriation Bill relating to Demands for

Grants (General) (Second Batch) for the

year 2008-2009.

One Hour

(21) Appropriation Bill relating to Demands for

Grants (Railways) (Second Batch) for the

year 2008-2009.

Two Hours

The Committee also recommended that in view of heavy

Government Legislative Business, on Friday, the 19th December, 2008,

only introduction of Private Members Bills be taken up.

(Ends)

THE NATIONAL INVESTIGATION AGENCY BILL, 2008 AND THE UNLAWFUL ACTIVITIES (PREVENTION) AMENDMENT BILL, 2008

THE MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM): I move:

That the Bill to constitute an investigation agency at the national level to investigate and prosecute offences affecting the sovereignty, security and integrity of India, security of State, friendly relations with foreign States and offences under Acts enacted to implement international treaties, agreements,


164

conventions and resolutions of the United Nations, its agencies and other international organisations and for matters connected therewith or incidental thereto, as passed by Lok Sabha, be taken into consideration.

And

I also move:

That the Bill further to amend the Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Act, 1967, as passed by Lok Sabha, be taken into consideration.

Sir, the National Investigation Agency Bill and the Unlawful

Activities (Prevention) Amendment Bill have been adopted by the Lok

Sabha with some amendments and the Bills, as amended by the Lok

Sabha, are before this House. Sir, I may say, with deep sense of

gratitude, the Lok Sabha adopted these Bills unanimously. There was

one amendment which was voted out. Otherwise, the Bills were adopted

unanimously. The reason is, in our consultations with the major political

formations in Parliament, they have extended support to the idea and to

the content of the Bills.

(Contd. by MKS/2u)

MKS-AKG/2.35/2U

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM (CONTD.): Sir, I know that there are sections

which have reservations to one or two aspects of the Bill. These

reservations, I believe, are genuine reservations, genuine concerns. I

think, in course of time, when this law is applied and worked, we will

know whether the law is working well or whether these reservations

deserve to be addressed.


165

The NIA Bill itself is a very simple Bill. It sets up the National

Investigating Agency. There are only eight acts in the Schedule in

respect of which the Agency is passed. The first information will be

registered in the police station and, then, forwarded to the State

Government; the State Government shall, forthwith, forward it to the

Central Government. The Central Government may, having regard to the

gravity of the offence and other relevant factors, direct that the case be

taken up with the NIRA. Otherwise, the case remains with the State

Agency. Even if the NIA takes up the case, there is a provision which

says: "If it is expedient to do so, it may associate the State Agency with

the investigation." There is also a provision which says: "If, after some

time, it feels that the case can be returned to the State for investigation,

the NIA may return the case to the State for investigation. There is a

provision for setting up of a Special Court. We have said that the Chief

Justice will nominate the Special Judge and the case shall be tried on a

day-to-day basis. The superannuation of the Judge shall not interrupt

the trial. In fact, he can be allowed to continue until the trial is

complete or until a specified date.

And with these, Sir, I think, it is felt necessary that there should

be an investigating agency, and I hope that the entire House will support

the establishment of NIA to investigate those offences. Appeals against

the orders of the Special Court will lie with the Division Bench of the

High Court and the appeals should be disposed of within three months.

Sir, the other Bill, the Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Amendment

Bill, 2008, is, if I may say, an attempt to balance the two conflicting

interests, apparently conflicting interests. The one interest is that the


166

State must be armed with strong laws; the Investigating Agency must

have arms; the prosecution must be confident that if it marshals the

evidence and places it before the Court, it can secure a conviction of

the accused. That is one interest of the State, one interest of the

people.

The other interest is that human rights are fundamental and basic.

A fair procedure, and to be tried fairly, is part of personal liberty; but no

man's personal liberty can be taken away except according to the

procedure established by law. It is, simply, not a mechanical procedure,

but a substantive due process. Therefore, for balancing the interests by

strong anti-terror laws and having the need to protect the fundamental

human rights of persons, including the accused, we have drafted this Bill

and, I am sure, the Members who are going to speak will support it.

The Minister, Mr. Ashwani Kumar, will intervene, and the Minister, Mr.

Kapil Sibal will also intervene, if necessary. They will explain the

provisions of the Bill. But, broadly, what we are doing is imposing

restrictions on the path of grant of bail. Applying the provision of

drawing a rebuttable presumption in certain cases and requiring that

before prosecution is actually sanctioned, the executive Government

must take the recommendation of an independent authority who will

review their writs. So, we are strengthening the law, but, at the same

time, are also providing the safeguards.

While closing the debate, I shall reply, in greater detail, if

necessary. The provisions are self-explanatory, and, I am sure, all hon.

Members have read the Bill. I request that both Bills be passed as

adopted by the Lok Sabha. I will only conclude by saying that it is


167

important that we show unity of purpose and unity in action. There is

no better way to demonstrate this unity than to unanimously vote in

favour of this Bill. (Contd. by TMV/2W)

-MKS-TMV-SCH/2W/2.40

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM (CONTD.): Please express your reservations;

please express your concerns. We will deal with those reservations and

concerns to the best of our ability. We will revisit the provisions, if

necessary, when we meet again in February. But, today, let the House

unanimously approve these two Bills as passed by the Lok Sabha. With

these words, I commend these Bills and ask the House to consider and

pass them. Thank you.

(Ends)

SHRI ARUN JAITLEY (GUJARAT): Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, I am

extremely grateful to you for permitting me to speak on these two Bills,

the first seeking to create a National Investigation Agency and the

second Bill amending further certain provisions of the Unlawful Activities

Act.

Sir, I must confess that I speak with a mixed feeling. The mixed

feeling is that my party and others who support us could derive, at

some stage, some sense of satisfaction that, at least, in some areas, if

not all, what we have been very strenuously saying for the last four

years and seven months that a strong legal mechanism also required to

investigate and punish terrorism. The reason and rationale that we have

set out for this, at least, a large part of what we have said, has now

been finally accepted by the Government. We might even get some

satisfaction from the fact that most of the arguments which were used


168

to repeal the erstwhile anti-terror law, POTA, are now proving to be

spurious. We can also get satisfaction, as a country, from the fact there

is a near unanimity, both within the country and outside, as well as, in

this House and in the Lok Sabha, that these two legislations are

required. But we are, at the same time, concerned about the fact that

the measures which the Government have taken are still not strong

enough and still falls short in a large measure as a legal mechanism for

fighting terror. Sir, we are also concerned and, I am sure, every Indian

is concerned about the fact that what has brought this consensus is not

really the sound and strong logic that we have been giving to this

Government for more than four-and-a-half years now. Where reasoning

failed, where our rationale failed, I think, the ten evil men who entered

Mumbai on 26th November and shook the conscience of the whole

country succeeded in persuading the Indian society that India can no

longer afford to be a soft State and must finally start adopting hard

measures if it is really serious about combating and fighting terrorism.

Sir, I remember that there were different reasonings given why

India did not need a strong anti-terror law. When POTA was repealed --

I was looking back at the debates -- and even when it was first

introduced -- I was reading the debates -- the country was repeatedly

told by the opponents of a strong anti-terror law that a strong anti-terror

law is not per se against terrorism, it is against minorities. The country

was told that normal laws in India are enough to tackle terror and when

you have so many normal laws why you need a special law to tackle

terror. The third reasoning made out was that a special anti-terror law

per se would be opposed to the constitutionally guaranteed rights and,


169

as a Republican Constitution, we can't afford to have a strong anti-terror

law.

(Contd. by 2X/VK)

VK/2X/2.45

SHRI ARUN JAITLEY (CONTD): We were then told that there is a huge

scope for misuse and abuse of this law and since there is a scope for

misuse and abuse of this law, it is much better to go by the normal laws

and not have this law.

Lastly, Sir, an argument was repeatedly raised and I have seen a

large number of my friends raising this argument till the other day in

and out of this House that anti-terror laws don't prevent terrorism;

despite POTA, an attack could take place on Akshardham, an attack

could take place on Parliament. Since despite an anti-terror law, attacks

can still take place by terrorists, what is the point in having a special

anti-terror law? Sir, I repeat that the ten evil men who entered Mumbai

on 26th November have shaken all these fundamental assumptions on

the basis of which a strong anti-terror law was being opposed. Today,

with the kind of measures which have been announced, plus some

additional measures which have still not been taken by this Government

in this law, it appears that the Government now also believes that all

these assumptions, which were being given to oppose the strong anti-

terror law, were really spurious assumptions; they were fallacious

assumptions.

Sir, it is obvious to anybody who understands how a fight

against terror and insurgency can take place that a battle against

terrorism is not fought in the courts of law. Terrorism is not something


170

that can only be fought through legislation. An anti-terror law is never a

substitute for a strong preventive intelligence. An anti-terror law is never

a substitute for a strong security action and a quick reaction commando

action against terrorism itself. To fight terror you need a large number of

steps. If it is cross border terrorism, if it is internationally engineered

terrorism, you, perhaps, need a global consensus. You may even take

foreign policy initiatives and work for a global consensus for sanctions

against countries and States which encourage terrorism. You require a

very strong intelligence network to fight terrorism, not only within your

own country, you require a strong intelligence network which infiltrates

into the enemy camp and pre-warns you of what is likely to happen.

Then you require that intelligence to be shared with those who require

that adequate intelligence information for the follow up action to be

taken which, at times, we find we are lacking in not taking that. What do

we do to our security responses? The law is not relevant. Our quick

security responses, our immediate security responses really determine it

because if we take action after hours, the terrorists have already won.

They have created a global impact; they have created a national impact.

Therefore, these are essentials which are required to fight terrorism. An

anti-terror law or a machinery to investigate terrorism, whether it is a

Central agency or a State agency, comes into the picture not as an

agency or a law which can prevent the act of terrorism, it is not an

agency which can really start distributing intelligence all over the country,

it is not an agency which will per se have a security force at its disposal

to prevent terrorism, that has to be done by the various agencies which

are earmarked for this purpose. The law and the agency comes into


171

the picture, either just about when an act is being planned or when an

act has just been committed. Therefore, for the purposes of collection of

evidence, investigation of that crime, punishment of the criminal, you

need a law and you need an agency which is effective.

(Contd. by 2Y)

RG/2.50/2Y

SHRI ARUN JAITLEY (contd.): You need a law which can adequately

collect that evidence, which can bring out that evidence and put it at the

disposal of the prosecuting agencies. Then, the conviction of those

involved in acts of terrorism becomes simpler and easier, so that your

conviction rate goes up. And, when your conviction rate in terrorist

offences goes up, then, it is a deterrent for those, who commit acts of

terrorism, not to indulge in those acts. The preventive impact of this law

is that it reflects the determination of the Government and the Indian

State in fighting terrorism, and the Indian State is then adequately

equipped in terms of law, to investigate the crime and expeditiously

punish those who are responsible for that crime. As I said, the battle

against terror is never fought exclusively in courts or through legislation.

You have to first equip the minds of the Government and the agencies

of the Government. It is in the hearts and minds of the people of India

that they must get ready, that we are a State, which is on the terrorist

radar, and, therefore, we must equip ourselves to fight terror. It is

through these Acts that the determination of the Indian State, in fighting

terror, is expressed. Unfortunately, 95 per cent of the tenure of this

Government is over, and that 95 per cent of the tenure of the

Government had been spent in convincing each one of us as to why a


172

strong terror was not required, and different arguments, as I have

already explained, were advanced to establish that these were not

essentials which were required, and an effort was being made to dilute

the whole thing. I am afraid even though the Home Minister's Bill

indicates to the contrary what some of his colleagues have been saying,

it still indicates, and that is where we are concerned about, that the

battle against terrorism is to be diluted because they think that the battle

may prove to be politically costly, and, therefore, the vote bank signal,

which has to be given, is to the contrary...(Interruptions) Yet, I don't

think it is a matter where any one of us can really be amused because

the argument really is that when you have both Houses of Parliament

debating on this Bill, at the same time, you have a colleague of the

Home Minister, making a statement yesterday, which was flashed on all

front pages of the newspapers of our Western neighbour, and the blogs

coming out of Pakistan were full of it saying, "Look; we always said so."

Now that is the signal which I am referring to. And the Government,

spent 95 per cent of its recent tenure giving this signal rather than taking

substantive steps in fighting terrorism. Sir, even though we found some

aspects of this law to be inadequate, -- my party had announced very

categorically that we would support these Bills -- even though we said

that these were only half-a-step, we would support this half-a-step

against terror but would continue to campaign for the other half, the

seriousness of which the Government may not have realised. I am

conscious of the fact of what the newspaper reports that the Home

Minister couldn't really be blamed for it, if they are to be believed, it

indicates that he tried his best to get some more provisions, but some


173

of his colleagues were, perhaps, concerned with the forthcoming

elections rather than the security considerations which are in-built in

those provisions.

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: If Shri Arun Jaitley yields, I would like to say

that unfortunately, sometimes, our newspaper reports wrongly. The Bill,

that was brought by my Ministry, by me, to the Cabinet, is exactly the

same version that was introduced in Lok Sabha. Nothing was added;

nothing was deleted. The Cabinet unanimously approved the draft that I

brought.

SHRI ARUN JAITLEY: Unfortunately, we have a Cabinet which has too

many spokesmen.

(Continued by 2Z)

TDB/2Z/2.55

SHRI ARUN JAITLEY (CONTD.): Each ally of the Government seems to

be taking credit for diluting this Bill. Sir, I am glad that the Home

Minister has clarified these because then, I would like to withdraw the

little compliment that I gave him, when I thought that, at least, he had

realised the seriousness and the gravity of the situation and tried to

bring in something which he honestly admits that he did not bring it. Sir,

in order, therefore, my primary task would be to convince him so that he

can convince his colleagues as to what further is required to be done,

as far as these laws are concerned.

Sir, in order to just simplify the issue, let us, for a moment, before

I go into the abstracts of what is required and what is already there, just

discuss and place before this House that what is the essential which is

required in the investigation of a terrorist offence? A terrorist offence per


174

se is not like an ordinary crime where eyewitnesses would be easily

available. A terrorist offence per se will have conspiracies, at times,

which are hatched in foreign soils. You will have some people, the

fidayeen, the jehadi terrorists, the suicide squads who are not scared of

dying, who are not scared of the prohibitions contained in the law, who

are not even scared of the consequence of the law. Therefore, you will

always have a larger conspiracy behind the apparent terrorist acts. We

can analyse anyone of the terrorist cases which have recently taken

place. Let me just point out a glaring terrorist case, recently took place

in Mumbai on 26th of November. On the surface, ten terrorists came by

the sea route, attacked various vital places in Mumbai. Nine out of the

10 are killed, one is arrested. What happened in Mumbai is extremely

easy for the Indian police to prove. You have eyewitnesses; you will have

various other evidences; you will have reports of experts, and it won't be

a difficult task for an Indian investigative agency to prove it against those

ten. But, nine out of the ten are, unfortunately, not there. It is a rare

case that a terrorist has been caught alive. Ordinarily, they are not

caught alive. But, the real conspiracy is not merely those ten. The real

conspiracy in this case is, and that is where the law is lacking, who

were the people who trained these ten across the border? There were

obviously some training camps where for a year or a year-and-a-half,

these people were given extensive training; funds were made available to

them; their families were assured that monies would be given to their

families, in case anything happened to them; weapons and equipment

were supplied to them; RDX was supplied to them. It is possible that

such an operation could not have been carried without the support of


175

the official agencies. Who were these people who organised the entire

conspiracy across the border? Pakistan is living in denial. Their High

Commissioner made a statement yesterday, their Foreign Minister made

a statement yesterday that Masood Azhar is not in Pakistan, conflicting

what had been said earlier. Pakistan as a State which is living in denial

will continue to deny it. Pakistan does not seem to be in a mood to

render cooperation. Therefore, the responsibility is ours, the onus is on

us to prove the Pakistan link and the Karachi limb of this conspiracy.

Now, the terrorist who has been caught alive is speaking. His

statements are being published, and his statements are being shared

with the entire world. But, under this law, with adequate safeguards, and

I underline and re-emphasise the word 'adequate safeguards', if Kasab's

statements to the investigating agencies are not evidence, then, we may

well be reading just a news in a newspaper which is not evidence in a

court of law.

(Contd. by 3a-kgg)

kgg/3a/3.00

SHRI ARUN JAITLEY (contd.): And Pakistan would then turn around and

say, "What Kasab is saying is not evidence under your own law, in your

own country, how do you want the international forum make it as

evidence against me?" Let us move a little backwards. One of the most

glaring cases in India is of the late Shri Rajiv Gandhi who was

assassinated. When Shri Rajiv Gandhi was assassinated, TADA was in

force. Though eventually the Supreme Court did not convict them under

TADA because of some interpretation of the definition of TADA, but the

Supreme Court still applied the rules of evidence of TADA. The lady with


176

a human bomb killed Shri Rajiv Gandhi on the spot. The actual killer

died on the spot. 50,000 people witnessed that killing. Yet, when the

matter came to court, our SIT went to the first conspirator, those who

supplied the vehicles, those who supplied the arms, those who supplied

the shelter, those who harboured them, and those who planned the

conspiracy; our SIT got all of them. Our SIT did a remarkable job in

reconstructing the whole crime. And, finally, just as we do not have any

eye witnesses of what happened in Karachi or the terrorist training

camps, the SIT did not have any eye witnesses of what the conspirators

were doing behind the closed doors. Conspiracies are hatched in

darkness. They are behind the closed doors, they do not leave eye

witnesses behind.

So, it is only when the first conspirator sang, the second

conspirator spoke; their evidence under TADA became admissible

evidence and the conviction of the other accused in the Rajiv Gandhi

assassination case took place only because of the admissibility of those

confessions. Take those confessions out, and this country would have

been a laughing stock where a former Prime Minister is assassinated in

front of 50,000 people and you would not have a conviction in the case!

The actual assassins had died on the spot.

Take the Parliament attack case. The five actual persons who

attacked the Indian Parliament died within this premises itself. It is the

conspirators who were arrested. The most material evidence against the

conspirators is those who spoke--the first and the second men who

were arrested. This is not only in this case, I will come to it a little later;

what is it which requires a strong anti-terror law? I always tell my friends


177

in the Government that when India is on the terrorist radar, you do not

have to be apologetic about India having a strong anti-terror law. We are

supporting this Government on the anti-terror law. But the difference

between the ruling benches and the opposition this time is, the

opposition is supporting this Bill as a national necessity and the ruling

party is still embarrassed and is apologetic about having brought this

Bill! That is the difference. It is a strange dichotomy in the Indian

democracy which has taken place. We are more enthusiastic about what

the Government is bringing, this type of Bill! Now, you require an anti-

terror law, and the Government had repealed the POTA. But, then their

security experts told them, "Why are you making India so vulnerable?"

Sir, I did an exercise as to what was there in POTA. Of course, I

am conscious of the fact that such a remedy is not available; but, if for

hijacking or copying an Intellectual Property, an action was available; I

think, the NDA had a strong case against the UPA. We drafted a law,

they said, "It is a horrible law and we will repeal it', then took a scissor

and started a cut-and-paste exercise by culling out provision by

provision from POTA, and word by word, full stop by full stop; and if we

had left the grammatical mistake somewhere, along with that

grammatical mistake they started incorporating it in the Unlawful

Activities Prevention Act. I just started comparing the features; on the

language, the verbatim language is the same. The law must define

terrorism; they had repealed POTA which defined terrorism; so, they

picked up that definition and put it in the Unlawful Activities Prevention

Act.

(Contd. by kls/3b)


178

KLS/3b-3.05

SHRI ARUN JAITLEY (CONTD): POTA was criticised because it had an

extraterritorial application. Obviously it is needed because if one limb of

the conspiracy takes place in Pakistan, the anti-terror law will have its

extraterritorial application. So you brought it back by 2005 amendment.

The quantum of punishment required under POTA, you picked it up and

brought it back. Now, besides an act of terrorism we said whoever

abates terrorism, whoever incites terrorism will also be an offence,

though a lesser offence, they picked up the language, pasted it in

another law; harbouring terrorists, they picked up and pasted in another

law; membership of a terrorist organisation, again picked up from POTA

verbatim and put in another law. Confiscation of proceeds of terrorism-

now, this was based on a salutary principle that no person can benefit

from profits of crime. You commit a crime and out of the profits of that

crime you buy a house or you open a bank account where you keep

money, so, that properties will be confiscated if they are out of terrorist

funds or those will be confiscated, they said it is a very good concept

let us put it back. If you threaten witnesses in a terrorism case, that

also is an offence -- verbatim taken and put in the Act. Declaration of

an organisation as a terrorist organisation -- picked up the provisions

verbatim and put them in the other Act; special laws -- picked up the

Sections and placed them in another Act. And then let me compliment

-- the Home Minister is not here, Mr. Sibal is here and Mr. Sibal's

favourite argument is that my law is better than your law, so the remand

period being provided ....

SHRI KAPIL SIBAL: Wait till my argument.


179

SHRI ARUN JAITLEY: Mr. Sibal's argument, which I have been

answering for the last four-and-a-half year, is that special law is not

required. Mr. Sibal is a man of principles. You see, he opposes it on

republican principles, brings this law on the principles of preserving

national sovereignty. In any case, he stands by those principles and he

will justify his principles at all stages ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI KAPIL SIBAL: Republicans are not against national sovereignty.

SHRI ARUN JAITLEY: I think in that event with all these provisions had

to be brought back...(Interruptions)... If all these provisions had to be

brought back, there was no need why India should be made so

vulnerable for four years and seven months. ...(Interruptions)... For four

years and seven months you made this country vulnerable and then you

decided to bring the same law back. ....(Interruptions)... Then, Sir, the

said, well, there is a remand period mentioned in the old law, we will

have a discretion for larger remand period. Well enough, because if the

investigation does not conclude in 90 days, you may require 180 days

and therefore, you may require to get evidences internationally, you may

have to send letter rogatories across the globe to get evidences, you

may have to get people extradited other countries, therefore, longer

period of investigation will be required Therefore, they put a provision of

giving some element of flexibility, yes, longer remand is required. It is a

correct provision in law, I have no difficulty with that. On dozens of

occasions we have been told in this House that you turned the law

upside down by shifting the onus of proof. There are no presumptions,

which are available. Now the presumptions available in POTA have been

exactly brought back. And what are those presumptions? The Evidence


180

Act has those presumptions. There is a chapter on presumptions in the

Evidence Law that if a weapon is found in your possession, the

presumption is there unless you disprove the fact it is not yours. The

fingerprints found in a vehicle, on the steering wheel of a vehicle, which

is used for terrorist offence, the presumption is you have used that

vehicle, the onus is on you that you have not used that vehicle. Section

number has been altered, Sir, that presumption now is back.

Confiscation of passport, setting of review committees, in fact, POTA

had a very interesting safeguard with regard to intercepts.

(Contd by 3c/SSS)

SSS/3C/3.10

SHRI ARUN JAITLEY (CONTD.): Obviously, a large part of criminal law

investigation these days are done on the strength of taking telephonic

conversation and intercepts. Now, doubt arose whether these are

admissible evidence. But POTA provided a safeguard. The safeguard

under POTA was, if a police officer wants to intercept, then, from the

competent authority he must take sanction and every fortnight the

Review Committee headed by a judge will certainly get the total record

of people whose intercepts have been made and these intercepts will be

admissible evidence in a court. You went a step a further. You said no

sanctions are required. The intercepts from wherever you get are

admissible evidence. Well, the police was facing a difficulty. If you want

to go that far I have no difficulty, we will support you even on that. But

don't be apologetic on the fact that India didn't need a strong anti-terror

law. It is an admission of the fact that you made this country vulnerable

for four years and seven months and now you come back to say, 'well,


181

India does need a special law. You cannot fight terror with ordinary

laws.' Sir, there were two vital provisions left out and the two vital

provisions are one with regard to special bail provisions and the second

with regard to confessions. Sir, as far as bail provisions were

concerned, under your normal criminal law you have the bailable

offences, the non-bailable offences where the discretion is with the

court. There are special laws in which the discretion of the court in

granting bail is further reduced. The court can't grant bail till a public

prosecutor has been noticed and if the court comes to an opinion at the

stage of bail, that prima facie the case is true or prima facie the case is

not false, just a prima facie view, the court will not grant bail. Now, we

had been repeatedly saying you require a stronger provision because

once a terrorist gets bail and if he is an international Jihadi, after getting

bail he is not going to come back and say, 'well, I am coming back for

the purposes of getting executed in India.' So, he is certainly going to

jump bail. Therefore, why do you not have special provisions with

regard to bail? Now, the present law has brought that provision back.

But, then, the UPA is not NDA, so you have to be different. The earlier

law said prima facie the case against him is not true. The judge will not

grant bail. You said he would not grant bail if he were proved that

prima facie the case against him is true. So, one had a direct mention

and the other alternative as double negatives. The two mean exactly the

same. You said, 'well, we have a different bail provision now and you

brought back and there is nothing wrong in this bail provision. Sir, I

have just prepared a list. TADA had this bail provision. POTA had this.

But, besides an anti terrorism law there are at least 12 laws in India


182

which have the same bail provisions. The MACOCA has the same bail

provision, the Andhra Pradesh and the Karnataka Organised Crime Laws

have the same provision but the Government said we are against these

organised crime laws so we are not allowing some BJP ruled

Governments to have those laws. But, your Narcotics Act has the

identical bail provision. Not only the Narcotics Act, I have copies, Sir,

you have similar bail provisions besides the Narcotics, Drugs and

Psychotropic Substances Act, Scheduled castes and Scheduled Tribes

Prevention of Atrocities Act, Anti Hijacking Act, Prevention of Damage to

Public Property Act, Prevention of Money Laundering Act and, then,

even Suppression of Unlawful Acts against Safety of Maritime

Navigations. You have the same bail provisions which are the

extraordinary hard bail provisions, Suppression of Unlawful Acts against

Safety of Civil Aviation, Terrorist Affected Areas Special Courts Act and,

finally, even the Wild Life Protection Act.

(Contd. by NBR/3D)

-SSS/NBR-MP/3D/3.15.

SHRI ARUN JAITLEY (CONTD.): So, those who commit these offences

against the wildlife would not get bail. But, those who committed these

crimes against humanity, terrorist offences, were entitled, under this

Government, for four-years-and-seven-months, to a lighter bail

provisions. They say, 'No. We would not have it.' Finally, I think,

where all our logic and rationality failed, you have those ten evil men

who came on 26/11 convincing the whole country and then pressurising

this Government to, reluctantly, come up and strengthen the bail

provisions.


183

Sir, even confessions, on the face of it, looks a little alarmist. I

concede to this that, ordinarily, in a law, confession to a police officer is

not admissible evidence. It should not be. That is the normal law. In

all our laws this should be the general principle. But, we, in India, have

exceptions. We, in India, even today, have exceptions. Sir, TADA and

POTA were exceptions. The MCOCA is an exception. The Karnataka

Organised Crime Law is an exception. The Andhra Organised Crime

Law is an exception. The Narcotics Law is an exception. You make a

statement to an officer investigating a narcotics offence, your statement

is admissible evidence. You make a statement to a customs officer, it is

admissible evidence. You have in foreign jurisdictions in liberal

democracies these statements become admissible evidence, provided

Judge is satisfied with regard to the voluntariness of the nature of

confession. And, the Supreme Court said -- it is extremely important.

If, obviously, the confession is involuntary or appears to be involuntary, it

should be disregarded. But, they say, how do you then ensure that

there is no misuse? Sir, four guidelines were suggested. The first one

is, the officer recording the confession must be a Superintendent of

Police or above. The second one is, it must preferably be video

recorded or audio recorded. The third one is, within 24 hours or 48

hours, as the Government decides, the accused must go before a judge

after making the confession. The Judge will ask him if it is voluntary. If

he says that it is involuntarily, he will be examined medically. All these

factors will be considered in order to determine the voluntary nature of

that confession. Now, on the one hand, you have an extraordinary

crime and that extraordinary crime is a crime against the State, a crime


184

planned in secrecy where there will never be an eye witness. I repeat,

those who conspired in secret meetings to assassinate Late Shri Rajiv

Gandhi, no investigation could ever produce eye witness of that. One of

them had to speak. And, if his statement was not evidence, then, there

would be no evidence. If Kasab's statement is not evidence, then it is

extremely difficult for India to prove what happened in Karachi or the

Pakistan's limb in this conspiracy. When you have gone so far, why do

you stop half way? When you want to create a National Investigation

Agency, why don't you give teeth that it needs in order to investigate a

crime and produce him before the world and the Indian courts evidence

required in relation to these crimes? Sir, if these essentials are not

there, then, I am afraid, even though, we move half a step further, there

will be cases and cases where we still fall short. There are enough

people waiting really to find holes in the Indian case. I am not referring

this to as a police case. At times, we are in the habit of discussing,

well so many attacks took place when you were in power, or, I was in

power or somebody else was in power. This is the Indian case. There

are enough people waiting. You have articles and books written which

says that attack on Parliament was organised by the RAW and the IB.

You have Indians authoring such books. Articles in newspapers suggest

this. We may all be magnanimous and willing to pass out yesterday's

statement of Mr. Antulay merely as an irresponsible act or something

where he, perhaps, did not adequately express himself.

(CONTD. BY USY "3E")


185

-NBR-USY/3E/3.20

SHRI ARUN JAITLEY (CONTD.): But, then, his statement is a huge fuel

for the country which has been extending facilities to the terrorists in

action against India. Read the blogs in Pakistan today. (Interruptions)

SHRI KAPIL SIBAL: Sir, my learned friend cannot mention the name of

a person who is not here. (Interruptions) He is not here. (Interruptions)

Moreover, he has already denied it on the floor of the House.

(Interruptions)

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: But all the newspapers carry this news item

today. (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: According to him, he has denied it.

(Interruptions)

SHRI KAPIL SIBAL: Let us talk something substantive. (Interruptions)

SHRI ARUN JAITLEY: Sir, I think, Mr. Sibal is right. I really should not

have named him. The Government itself should have named him today

morning. But this is something that has embarrassed this country. This

has weakened our case internationally. This is something that defies the

collective responsibility of the Cabinet; something that provides

ammunition to our enemies and opponents. And, therefore, I should not

name him, the substance should be the Government itself should have

come up and shrugged off its relationship with a person who makes this

kind of a statement. (Interruptions)

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: The Congress Spokesman said that it was his

personal view, it was not the Congress Party's view. But he has not

denied it. (Interruptions)


186

SHRI ARUN JAITLEY: Sir, therefore, today, on a strong anti-terror law,

where are we? The whole country was misled that we did not need a

law. The law was repealed. Then, sentence after sentence, clause after

clause of that law was brought back. But, then, you also wanted to

have that one upmanship and say, "Well, we are different because this

one provision was not there. And, this one provision is a significant

provision." Unless that provision is there with safeguards, in case after

case, you will be weakening India's case. And, I reiterate and say if that

provision had not been there in the TADA, the accused in Rajiv Gandhi's

case would have benefited. If it had not been in the POTA, the accused

in the Parliament case would have benefited. Fortunately, Mumbai has

the MCOCA which has that provision. But for some reasons, I am told,

the MCOCA has still not been pressed into action in the 26/11 case.

Unless that statement is a statement under the MCOCA, which becomes

evidence, the Karachi and the Pakistan limb of the conspiracy may be

difficult to establish in law. Therefore, we require to do that. So, please

re-consider, when you have travelled all this distance and wisdom has

dawned on you in the last five months of your Government, and please

don't make it an incomplete statement. The Home Minister was candid

enough to say that he had consultations with the Opposition. We made

it very clear to him that we will, come what may, support it even if it is

half-a-step. We have our own nationalist credentials, therefore, we don't

want to stop even half-a-step. But, then, please make India a strong

State. This law per se will not abolish terrorism. Merely because we

have an Indian Penal Code, crime has not ended; because we have

section 302 that provides for death penalty or life penalty murders have


187

not stopped. Murders are still taking place, but the law provides a

deterrent in a civilized society. It provides an expeditious methodology

of investigation and punishment. Therefore, please give this law more

teeth than what exist today.

Sir, the second part of the amendment in the second Bill is the

setting up of a National Investigation Agency. And, I have said, as far

as the first law is concerned, we have supported it because it is half-a-

step. We have reservations about what has not been done and we will

continue to campaign for that. But as far as the National Investigation

Agency is concerned, I have no hesitation in saying that we fully support

the proposal as has been mooted by the Government. And, this is for

two good reasons. First, some doubts are, at times, raised whether the

Central Government possesses the power to take over what appears to

be a power within the State jurisdiction. The constitutional entries make

it very clear that the defence of India, in List 1, entry 1, is the exclusive

primary domain of the Central Government; and, it is the public order,

which includes the law and order, which is in the domain of the State

Government.

(Contd. by 3f -- VP)

VP/3.25/3F

SHRI ARUN JAITLEY (CONTD.): Where does terrorism fit in? Terrorism

is not merely law and order. Terrorism is something which attacks the

sovereignty of India and it attacks the unity of India. Therefore, if there

is cross border terrorism of this kind, it has something directly to do

with the defence of India. Therefore, even in the Supreme Court, when

TADA was first enacted and POTA was first enacted, an objection was


188

taken with regard to the legislative competence of the Centre to enact

an anti-terror law on the ground that law and order is a State subject.

But the Supreme Court also said that there is no entry called terrorism

in the Constitution. Therefore, this could, perhaps, come within the

defence of India and not public order. If it doesn't fall in either, then, it

comes within the residuary entry, List I, Entry 97. Therefore, this is,

exclusively, within the central domain. Protecting the sovereignty of

India is the responsibility of the Central Government. Therefore, against

terrorism, if a law is brought, it is within the Central domain. If an

agency is created to investigate that offence, then, obviously, those who

have the competence to enact a law also have the competence to

create an agency of that kind.

(THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN) IN THE CHAIR)

Therefore, we fully support the Government's proposal that the

Central Government is fully competent to enact this law. Even

otherwise, Sir, an offence of terrorism in some cases may not

adequately be investigated by State police. There may be offences

which have inter-State ramifications. You may require sharing of

intelligence between several States. You may require coordination of

intelligence of all those States. You may have different limbs of the

conspiracy in different States. You may even have, -- as this law has

extra-territorial application; some parts of the conspiracy taking place

outside India -- some intelligence required from outside India. Now,

there may be offences where all this is not present and the Central

agency itself may feel the State police can do it. But in extraordinary

cases like the one in Mumbai, or, the Parliament attack, these may be


189

cases, where State police itself may be inadequate to investigate the

offence. And, by the very nature of the offence, a Central agency would

be more competent in order to investigate that offence. Therefore, we

fully support the proposal of the Central Government as far as creation

of a central agency is concerned with a discretion that some

extraordinary offences of this kind, when they take place, the central

agency itself will investigate those offences.

Finally, Sir, let us realise one thing. While we are debating this law,

this country has paid a huge cost of terrorism. We have lost individuals,

we have lost human lives, and we have lost lives of security personnel.

A large part of our national resource gets spent on it. Where there is

terrorism, investment is not forthcoming. The economic resources are

diverted to fight terrorism. You may even have a diversion as far as

your defence preparedness is concerned, where instead of looking at

your borders, you are looking at your interiors where terrorist activities

are taking place. Anti-insurgency steps, anti-terror steps, at times, are

strong. Mr. Chidambaram was right when he says that we have to do a

balancing act between human rights and fighting terror. Therefore, there

may be some erosion, at some stage, of individual rights. Harsh

combing operations, at times, lead to alienation of local population.

These are all costs we have to pay because of fighting terrorism.

Therefore, when this is the kind of cost this country has to pay, I think,

we need not be -- while we should be concerned about human rights

and balance them in our fight against terror -- apologetic in a state

whose sovereignty is threatened in taking strong anti-terror steps. This

Government has decided that they have a change of heart. Though what


190

they failed to do for four years and seven months, those ten men who

came from across the borders have persuaded them in doing so, and

they have brought this law. But, then, let it be an adequate exercise. It

can't be an incomplete exercise. As I said, we, on this side, support

these measures as one of national necessity and the Government should

not be apologetic about having brought in any of these measures. Thank

you very much, Sir. (Ends)

(Continued by PB/3G)

PB/3G/3.30

DR. ABHISHEK MANU SINGHVI (RAJASTHAN): Mr. Vice-Chairman,

Sir, I heard my friend, Mr. Jaitley, with rapt attention. He gave the

Home Minister a compliment which is obviously a compliment based on

fiction because he reacted to a newspaper report, and obviously, Mr.

Jaitley can't be privy to Cabinet proceedings. So since there is no basis

as to what happened and Mr. Chidambaram clarified that the

compliment itself was based on fiction, therefore, the withdrawal was

also fictional. But I must actually partly withdraw the compliment as I

was about to give to the Opposition because I was misled into thinking

that this is, in fact, a near-contentious debate and that's the good thing

about it. It is supposed to be a non-contentious debate. They are

supposed to support us but my friend could not repeatedly resist the

temptation of being self-congratulatory. He could not repeatedly resist

the temptation of saying 'we told you so.' As I will presently show, his

self-congratulatory approach is not fully justified although the support

which his party gives us, we welcome it in the national interest.


191

But before we go further, let me deal with a preliminary aspect

about the statement of a learned Member of Parliament, a Minister

yesterday. I think my friend is being less than fully fair. At five o'clock,

minutes after the statement was made, the Congress Party, officially in

its Press briefings in Parliament House, categorically and specifically

repudiated and rejected the statement and said, 'we neither support nor

accept.' Having said that, that was repeated the whole evening

yesterday. Today, I am told the learned Minister has himself retracted

and modified or clarified it; and I fail to understand when it's not a

Government of India's statement, when it's not a Congress statement,

when it's not a UPA statement, I ask myself how Pakistan or any other

country in the world can rely on it and say, 'it's the Government of India

stand, we told you so.' ...(Interruptions)

SHRI RAMDAS AGARWAL: He is a Minister.

DR. ABHISHEK MANU SINGHVI: Let me complete. He is a Minister

but the Government of India or the ruling coalition or the Party has said,

'we don't accept that statement.' Well I want to ask you my friend,

when you, one day later ... ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI RAMDAS AGARWAL: He cannot give that. ...(Interruptions)... In

what capacity, ... ...(Interruptions)...

DR. ABHISHEK MANU SINGHVI: After our contemporaneous clarification

... (Interruptions)...

SHRI RAMDAS AGARWAL: He should resign from the Cabinet and

then give that statement.

DR. ABHISHEK MANU SINGHVI: Please let me speak.

...(Interruptions)... Mr. Agarwal, when one day later, after my


192

contemporaneous clarification and after his own clarification, if you raise

it again and again, are you -- ask yourself -- not politicising the issue for

the whole world and are you not making it a political issue? The issue

should rest now in view of the clear clarification then.

But, Sir, may I come back to the main business. This is not the

main business. The main business is that this Government, this House

means business. It means the business of sending a clear signal across

the world that the country is united, that it is doing a holistic approach,

administrative, legal, factual, logistic to strengthen the whole country in

the war against terrorism. We are sending a clear signal that we will

show our resolve to terrorise the terrorist but in accordance with law,

and I must congratulate the Government for its very swift response but

also for its measured response. I think it is important not to have an

element of overkill; it is important to focus the remedy to the situation

which arises. The remedy cannot and should not be worse than the

disease. We must also keep in mind that laws are not the only answer.

A law and a legal framework is only part of a much larger holistic

framework and you are seeing different elements of that framework

whether it is coercive diplomacy, globally, whether it is basic police

reforms which are the need of the hour and which are, I am sure, in the

pipeline ... (Contd. by 3h/MKS)

MKS-HMS/3.35/3H

DR. ABHISHEK MANU SINGHVI (COTND.): ....whether it is logistic

upgradation and reinforcement, and it is that holistic approach which

alone will win us or get us ahead in the war on terror.


193

What is also very happy to note is that during the debate held just

two or three days ago, or last week, on the Mumbai incident, several

issues were raised and discussed, and many of them find a concrete

manifestation in the two Bills that are placed before the House. There is

the concrete manifestation of centralised approach, the NIA, the Special

Courts. These are all discussed and mentioned in the several speeches

made by Members and the discussions that we had a few days ago.

As regards fast track approach, appeal provision and other issues, I will

come to them, as far as nitty-gritty is concerned, shortly. But the

important thing is that these two Bills, both individually and together,

represent a seamless web, an indivisible and comprehensive seamless

web, which tries to deal with every facet and every aspect of terror,

from training to funding, to supplying, and, therefore, it does something

which is very important. It deals with the front visible face of terror; it

deals with the middle end of terror, and it seeks to deal with the back

end of terror. It also seeks to address, as I will, presently, show, every

aspect of preventive facet of dealing with terrorism; aspects of detection,

apprehension and arrest, search and seizure of the questioning process

of the prosecution and of the conviction and punishment, because

without all this, you cannot deal with terror.

Let me, first of all, as I said, disabuse my friend about the violation

of his intellectual property rights or the alleged plagiarism which he

reminded this House of; we are one on having a strong legal framework.

But let me assure you that we are the ones who have brought in TADA;

there can be no question of plagiarisation. I will start blaming you for

POTA, the plagiarisation from TADA if you blame me. We learnt certain


194

lessons from TADA, and we, therefore, acted. But, now, let me just

give you a few specific cases to show you why, far from their being a 99

per cent similarity, there is a huge, significant set of differences. First of

all, I am happy to note that this is something that the Leader of the

Opposition talked about several times; about having a Central Federal

Agency. But, whatever the reasons are, he was unable to bring in a Bill;

he was unable to implement. We are proud to actually have

implemented the promise of having a Federal Agency. And, obviously,

the Federal Agency is the implementing arm of a better legal framework.

So, obviously, what you could not do with POTA, you now have a

Federal Agency doing that. That, obviously, is a unique and different

feature.

The second one is about the definition of 'terrorism'. Let me

remind this House and my friend that the definition of 'terrorism' in

POTA was fairly large, but the definition of 'terrorism' which we

incorporated in the earlier version, of 2004, of the Unlawful Activities

(Prevention) Act, is, in fact, much larger in the Bill which you have today

before the House. It deals, specifically, with radioactive and nuclear

issues. It deals, specifically, with hostage situations, with very wide

language--I am not taking our time by taking you to the language part.

It deals, very directly, with property, pressures on public functionaries

and disruptions of supplies; all are relating it to terrorism; all of which

were absent in POTA; all of which were not there in POTA. So, give us

some credit where it is due, Mr. Jaitley.

Then, again, the punishment for dealing with radioactive

substances is being considerably enhanced by having a new specific


195

provision. There is a new specific provision, not found earlier, section

16: "A separate significant, comprehensive provision, dealing with raising

of funds for terrorist acts." I know that there is a funding issue and a

provision in POTA. But POTA had 'funding' dealt with in the definition

of 'a terrorist offence' and funding dealt with there was much narrower.

(Contd. by TMV/3J)

-MKS-TMV-3J/3.40

DR. ABHISHEK MANU SINGHVI (CONTD.): You now have a separate,

independent, much larger and much more comprehensive provision

dealing with all aspects of funding very wide in the new Bill, not found in

POTA. Two very important, extremely comprehensive, all encompassing

provisions about training camps and about recruitment of terrorists,

clauses 18A and 18B, are completely new, not found in POTA. Then

come issues like bail. For example, my friend, in a sense, just

caricatured the bail provision by telling you that the bail provision in

POTA and the bail provision here are virtually identical and we have

merely incarnated the language with slight differences. I am afraid that it

is not so. You have to see the provisions. The provision for bail in

POTA puts an extremely heavy, in fact, an impossible possibility of

getting bail. We have, in fact, put that language in this new Bill. But

that is for aliens, which says that you shall not get bail except in very

exceptional circumstances. But that is only for non-Indian citizens, for

foreigners. For Indians, the POTA provision says that the judge shall not

grant bail unless the court is satisfied that there are grounds for

believing that he is not guilty of committing an offence. For a judge,

with merely an FRI and a charge-sheet, to return a finding that the


196

person is nor guilty would be virtually impossible. The new provision in

the current Bill before you has a provision which, I think, harmoniously

marries the demands of security and safety with a fair emphasis on the

possibility of getting the bail and on human rights aspects. The current

provision, and I remind you, is not identical and, therefore, uses the very

significant word "prima facie", which is absent in the POTA, and says

"reasonable grounds for believing that the accusation is prima facie

true". That is a very different legal test. It is a very different legal test

which lawyers know and lawyers should know. It is a very different legal

test as judges know and as also courts administering justice.

Then again, on the issue, of course, of confession, we are again

different from POTA because we have not included "an admissible

confession" and let me deal with that issue because my friend has said--

he has a fair point--why you should not render confessions admissible.

Well, you could debate this point. But kindly consider this. You have to

measure the cost-benefit aspects of any provision. We believe that,

perhaps, the costs of rendering every confession to every police officer,

even though above a certain rank, admissible far outweighs the benefit.

You might need it and it might work in a few cases, but its abuse is so

much as to justify not having it. Now, the Rajiv Gandhi case is not a

good example. The Rajiv Gandhi case is not an example for the simple

reason that there the conviction, as my friend has himself rightly noted,

was upheld under the normal law of 302, murder charge. TADA was

not the basis of that conviction. Just three or four weeks ago, we had

no less than the Chief Justice of India--of course, he was speaking extra

judicially, not on the Bench--categorically saying that strict or blanket


197

admissibility of confessions raised several issues of constitutionality,

doubts and questions. In the Kartar Singh case under TADA, the

Supreme Court judgement which upheld the admissibility of confession.

That case has been specifically doubted by the Supreme Court and I

have no doubt, at least, there is every possibility that in the near future

the Kartar Singh case will be reconsidered and might well be set aside

or reviewed or modified. The Administrative Reforms Commission has

raised a very valid point. It is not that we are per se against

admissibility of confessions for all times. But given the present state of

our police system, the present state of training, motivation, facilities and

the police system, with police reforms still a long way to go, go long

afar, whether or not admissibility of confession should await basic police

reforms.

(Contd. by 3K/VK)

VK/3K/3.45

DR. ABHISHEK MANU SINGHVI (CONTD): We think it should. We

think that we can reconsider this issue once we have had some reform.

Let me assure my friend in this House that we are not toothless, we are

not impotent in the first phase of terrorist attacks as far as admissibility

is concerned. Not at all. We have powers. We have the law. My friend

knows better than anybody else, we have Section 164. Under Section

164, if you take the terrorist; if he is interested in giving the example of

only Kasab, let us take only Kasab's example, Kasab can be taken to

the nearest magistrate, one kilometre away from the jail -- my friend

knows that the new Bill will have special courts -- the magistrate can

record his confession under Section 164 which is the ordinary law of the


198

land. The confession is fully admissible. What is the problem? Please

do not conjure up a fear psychosis that the country is without any law; it

is a toothless tiger; it is a paper tiger; it is without any power or it is

impotent. The impotence may be there in our thought processes, it is

not there in the law. If, for the time being, we are not able to improve

our police systems, then I think this merits the fair demand of a certain

emphasis on human rights along with a fair chance of conviction with

confessions or without confessions, as you may chose.

So far as the federal agency aspect is concerned, as I said, we

are very proud that we did not talk about it, we actually did it. The

previous Government talked a lot about it, but could not do it. On the

federal agency, I entirely agree with my friend and to support his

argument let me add two or three more provisions. Terror, of course, is

an all India phenomenon. Terror, of course, is supportable under Entry

1, List 1, Defence of India. This is after all an indirect war on India. But

there are other entries. As I said in the debate last week, the

Committee on Law and Justice has specially pointed out in its report

submitted to Parliament that investigation and intelligence is specifically

covered under Entry 8, List 1, under which we chose to only create a

more truncated body, the CBI. But the power is much wider. I also

said in the debate that the Criminal Procedure Code and administration

of the Criminal Procedure Code would also cover this aspect. So to all

the other parties, there are, obviously, other parties here, not

necessarily the BJP, which thinks that it is an assault on our federal

structure, which thinks it is a dilution of our federal structure, they

should be assured that this is not a case of 356 gone a muck. It is not


199

a case of a lawless exercise of some kind of invasion of State rights.

This is a limited, focused, regulated action on terrorism, fully sanctified

and supported by the entries of the Seventh Schedule of the

Constitution and in any case, I very much doubt, with the great support

of civil society, if any court of law in this country, would want to strike it

down as being ultra vires or beyond constitutional competence. There

are very important provisions here about special courts, a point that I

touched upon in the debate. The judgement of the Supreme Court

says, "You can have special courts, provided you give a judicial

element". There is a whole Chapter in this new Bill, which deals

comprehensively with special courts, which will also be a kind of a fast

track court for terrorism, which is the vital need of the hour. A special

court does not mean that the executive chooses a special judge. A

special court and a special judge are different. This is the basic

principle of the Supreme Court judgement when, you remember, Mrs.

Indira Gandhi was sought to be tried under the special court, set up

then. That principle is that so long as you have a consultative process

with the judiciary in setting up special courts and you have no power to

choose the judge who mans them, then special courts are valid. They

do a good job. They are faster. I think they are absolutely vital in this

case. There are, of course, special provisions in this Bill, as far as I

recollect, which were not there in POTA, which put some much more

draconian and stringent power or regulatory framework against aliens,

non-Indian citizens.

(Contd. by 3L)


200

RG/3.50/3L

DR. ABHISHEK MANU SINGHVI (contd.): As I said last time, the United

States, after 9/11, passed a series of laws, which we all applauded, and

we said, "This is the way to deal with terror." But we forgot that all the

stringent laws of the U.S., which enhanced the stringency of the laws

about arrests, about detention, were all for aliens, not for domestic U.S.

citizens. But, here, in India, we have actually created a very stringent

provision about aliens who come into this country. They cannot, by a

specific provision, be granted bail at all unless the phrase used is

'exceptional circumstances'. It is a different larger issue which need not

be detaining this House, whether under our more comprehensive

constitutional scheme, such a special provision for aliens or non-Indian

citizens will be upheld by the Courts because both articles 14 and 21 of

our Constitution which talks of 'Right to life and liberty', apply to Indian

citizens and non-Indian citizens alike, something far wider than the

U.S.A., which is why the U.S. could have something like Grantham obey

but not articles 14 and 21 of our Constitution. But that is a different

issue. The period of 90 days is liable to be extended to 180 days. The

basic spirit and approach of this new Bill is that the policemen, the NSG

Commandos, and the Forces, who fight terror, on our behalf, are not

only strengthened directly but they also have the spirit, the feeling and

motivation in their minds that whatever they are doing is not futile, that

when they do something, they arrest somebody and when they try

somebody, all their efforts will not go in vain, or, the person will not

escape scot-free. That is the purpose of all these provisions.

Therefore, obviously, because terrorists inspire fear, they generate a


201

certain feeling of fear psychosis, investigation is slower; witnesses are

more difficult to find, and, therefore, the extendability of 180 days in a

particular case, if the judge so wants, from the normal 60 or 90 days, is

a welcome additional step.

Sir, ultimately, this whole issue cannot be really effectively dealt

with, without strengthening the backbone of the system, and the

backbone of the system is and will always remain the beat constables,

the ordinary police forces. The entirety of the huge police reforms,

which we know every detail about, -- the police reforms as per the

Police Commission or as per the Administrative Reforms Commission or

as per any number of Committees that we have -- they have to go step

by step. The pace, the momentum and the direction of these legislative

changes have to be maintained through those police reforms. There is

now a wealth of information through the Supreme Court directions on

police reforms. I know that the States are resisting. The States have a

different approach and a different view. But in some of the Union

Territories, the Central Government can make an example and lead by

way of example in a Union Territory; at least in some Union Territories,

where the Central Government has some power to make laws, where

the police force can be revamped. Certainly, Chinese walls can be

created between the prosecution, the investigation and the operation.

Why shouldn't we have, at least, two of these Chinese walls, if not

three? The person who operates on the field should not be

investigating, and the investigator should not be going to the Court every

day for prosecution. And then, you can apply simple new innovative

schemes to deal with these divisions For example, as I said in the


202

other debate, if you can have an insurance cover for all your operational

police force, of Rs.1 crore in case of death and Rs.50 lakhs in case of

serious disability. This can be done if you create that division.

Sir, I am very grateful for the time given. In the ultimate analysis,

what is important is, despite the few self-congratulatory pats on the

back, despite the 'we told you so', and despite the allegations of

plagiarism, this is a united effort substantially and largely, and that is the

message of unity which we send out to the whole world. I have no

doubt that it is not only in the legislative framework, but also in the

actual implementation, that unity and that spirit will continue to pervade.

Therefore, ultimately, win us the victory over the terrorists.

(Ends)

(Followed by 3M)

TDB/3M/3.55

SHRI SITARAM YECHURY (WEST BENGAL): Thank you, Sir. I rise

today, Sir, with the specific intention of seeking to enrich both the

legislations that have been moved by the Home Minister through

concrete amendments in order to strengthen our fight against terrorism,

our country's fight against terrorism and, at the same time, also to

preserve the inviolability of the federal structure of the Indian

Constitution. So, while fighting terrorism and maintaining and preserving

the federal structure, we do not think these are mutually contradictory or

exclusive objectives. I don't subscribe, Sir, that in order to fight

terrorism, we require laws which will conflict with the rights of the people

and individuals as human rights or fundamental rights enshrined in our

Constitution or the rights of the States as enshrined under the federal


203

structure of our Constitution. I fully agree that every freedom has a

reasonable restriction. But, are these laws going beyond these

reasonable restrictions? Are they violative of the fundamental

understanding and the conception of our Constitution is a very important

matter that we cannot ignore? So, therefore, the amendment that we

would propose, I will come to that later, is in order to strengthen both

these objectives, strengthen the fight against terrorism, through these

new laws, at the same time, preserve the rights of the individuals and

the rights of the States which, I repeat, I do not think are contradictory

or mutually exclusive. This, Sir, I think it is very important for us in this

august House, because after all we are the Council of States. The rights

of the States under the Indian Constitution is something which we as the

Council of States ought to be the custodians to protect. So, therefore,

we require to pay a little more attention to this aspect, and that is where

I would like also to draw the attention of the House to recollect that the

Constitution of India defines our country as the Union of Indian States. It

is not the Indian Republic; it is not the Republic of India. It is the Union

of Indian States, and behind that is the rich understanding of federalism,

of federalism in a diversity which does not exist anywhere in the world.

There is no country which has such a rich plurality and diversity. And a

federal structure in this background, is a very important entity in keeping

our country together. Therefore, we will have to maintain that essence,

Sir, and I don't think any measure should be taken which can be

violative of that, and if we are doing that, I am afraid, we are going to

cut the branch on which we are sitting. So, therefore, I repeat once

again that I don't see the objective of strengthening our fight against


204

terrorism as being in any way contradictory to preserving the federal

content of our Constitution. And, Sir, in this connection, it is also

important to again recollect the Constitution of India talks of India i.e.

Bharat. It is not India i.e. Hindustan. It is India i.e. Bharat. There is a big

philosophical understanding behind that. That by Hindustan, even by

mistake, even if we do not want to mean it, but if that meaning is

conveyed that this is the land only of the Hindus, then, we are, actually

negating the very concept and conception of modern India. I am raising

this point, Sir, precisely to underline the fact that the fight against

terrorism is not only a battle that has to be done through laws. The fight

against terrorism is finally also a political battle where we have to create

in our country conditions which cannot provide the fertile ground for

terrorism to thrive. And, if that has to be provided, then, the secular

credentials, the secular foundations of India will have to be strengthened,

and the political atmosphere and climate has to be brought about where

the fight against terrorism cannot be politicised, cannot be

communalised and India cannot afford it, if we want to win the war

against terror. And, that background is necessary because,

unfortunately, I think, so far, it has been a rather legalistic debate that

you had. I understand, both our esteemed colleagues are lawyers of

reputation, and since they have gone into the various clauses, but I

thought unless we get back the political backdrop in which we are

discussing this issue, I think, we will be missing the essence. In this

context, Sir, before I come to the actual contents of some of the

refinements that I am asking the Government to please accept, and


205

concrete amendments have been moved there, is that in the Statement

of Objects and Reasons for the National Investigation Agency...

(Contd. by 3n-kgg)

kgg/3n/4.00

SHRI SITARAM YECHURY (contd.): The hon. Home Minister has, here,

argued the need for such an agency, which I am not disputing. I will

come to that later. But, one of the reasons that he has done is because

of the innumerable incidents of terrorist attacks, where there is a specific

mention of Left-wing extremism. I have no objections for that fact

because we have been victims of the Left-wing extremism. Very recently,

there was an attack on our hon. Chief Minister of West Bengal by these

elements. We are on the forefront to combat it. But, if you are

mentioning 'Left-wing extremism', should not Right-wing extremism also

find a place? Why is that omitted? You had this entire investigations

done into the Malegaon blasts, you had the Nanded blasts, now that

trend has reached the Samjhauta Express blasts. You have had a

military school coming under the radar of these operations. All these are

the recent experiences. Why is it that you have mentioned only the Left-

wing extremism and omitted Right-wing extremism? All varieties of

extremisms, I repeat, terrorism knows neither religion, nor region, nor

caste nor creed. Terrorism has to be fought united as India and as

Indians and, therefore, do not give even in your Statement of Objects

and Reasons such an impression that this is directed only at one

particular screen or one direction. That will not win us our battle against

terrorism. That is something we will have to uncompromisingly state.


206

Here, Sir, I would say that let us discuss these Bills in the

background with the gravity and sincerity that the fight against terrorism

cannot be conducted on the playground of politics and politicking. The

fight against terrorism has to be conducted as a serious business; it is

not a question of some minority vote bank or a majority vote bank, on

either sides that the accusations are being hurled, but this is an issue

which patriots, as each one of us, will have to stand up to this to fight

and it is in that spirit, Sir, I am making these concrete suggestions for

the consideration of the House.

As for the National Investigation Agency, there was a time, I

confess that my party and the people in the Left, were very

apprehensive of creation of such a federal agency. But, today, for

reasons we are supporting the creation of such an agency and the

reasons are as follows. One is that we have seen in the recent terrorist

attacks that there has been a woeful inadequacy in the coordination

between the various intelligence gathering agencies in our country. That

we have seen and we have been through that debate only the other

week here, in this House, I do not want to repeat all that has happened

in Mumbai; the fact remains that there is a need for greater coordination

between all these agencies. You have the Intelligence Bureau, you have

the R&AW, you have the Military Intelligence, you have the State

Intelligence, and there are all these inputs. But, some authority in order

to coordinate all these will have to be created. But, somehow, that is

not in the ambit of this Agency. This Agency, from the law that has been

drafted, comes into the picture only post-event. After the attack has

occurred, after the event has happened, then this Act comes into force.


207

Fine. That part of it, I will come to afterwards. But, the other area, prior

to the event occurring, the coordination that is required, the Government

must pay attention to that aspect and also come with some concrete

proposals on that aspect.

Our hon. senior colleague, who is here, who was the Home

Minister for all these years under the UPA Government, as the political

leader, his head has rolled; but, the entire apparatus, the administrative

set up that you have underneath, in all this intelligence gathering,

security agencies, is intact, as it was, as though there has been nothing

wrong there; there is not one officer called to be accountable; not one

person who has been asked as to why this lapse has been happening.

We can, in the august House, and in the portals of Parliament pull him

up as the Home Minister. But, should we not set the entire structure in

order, Sir? A complete overhauling is required and a new security

architecture is required in the country. If that is to be done; the reason

why I am saying that, Sir, is that the new agency is, ultimately, to be

manned by the same people on whom you have not even pointed a

finger and asking for accountability.

(Contd. by kls/3o)

KLS/30-4.05

SHRI SITARAM YECHURY (CONTD): If that is the case, what will be

results? That is a very, very severe question mark that is there and to

that area the Government will have to pay attention. Now having said

this, the second aspect which is very correct that we have seen with our

own experiences of many State Governments that many a terrorist act

that take place or a terrorist act that takes place, the linkage transient


208

the borders of any individual State, in many cases they transience the

international borders of India and it is true that your require a federal

agency in order to conduct investigations of such nature and therefore,

we accept this proposal of having a national agency. But at the same

time, the rights of the States that need to be protected as well, this

issue as I said earlier at the outset must be kept in mind. Therefore,

how do you rectify or how do you reconcile both these issues? There is

a way within this draft and that is what I would like to concretely

propose because this draft, for instance, its clause 6.5 says, Sir, that

notwithstanding anything contained in this Section, if the Central

Government is of the opinion that a Schedule offence has been which is

required to be investigated under the Act it may suo motu direct the

agency to investigate the said offence. Now it follows, what the hon.

Home Minister explained, the agency may request the State Government

to associate itself with the investigations. But this is discretionary. The

powers of the State, as far as our federal structure is concerned, need

to be obligatory not discretionary. So, how do you make this obligatory

and how do we reconcile this situation? The Schedule under which this

agency will operate has eight Acts of the Parliament, eights Acts of the

land. Of these eight Act, I concretely propose that this Schedule be

divided into two parts, Schedule A and Schedule B; Schedule A deals

with six out of these eight Acts which are essentially atomic energy, anti-

hijacking Act, civil aviation Act, maritime navigation, weapons of mass

destruction, etc. and the Schedule B should have contained those two

acts, which is, Unlawful Activities Prevention Act and the Sections under

the Indian Penal Code. Now, both these Acts normally are implemented


209

by the State agencies and the State police and, therefore, what I am

proposing is that as far as Schedule A is concerned, let the existing

provisions prevail, we have no objection to it. But as far as Schedule B

is concerned, a separate clause be inserted that for all investigations

conducted under Schedule B, the State Government will be necessarily

associated. This will remove the apprehension that this is violative of

the rights of the States. Therefore, this is the concrete manner in which I

think both the objectives can be reconciled.

(THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI KALRAJ MISHRA) IN THE CHAIR)

I say this also, Sir, because Sections 121 to 131 of the Indian Penal

Code are precisely those on which the Communist Movement in the

country has been under attack a number of times -- your Meerut

Conspiracy, your Kanpur conspiracy, your banning of the Communist

Party, they have all been under these Sections. We are aware that such

a situation will come, that is a different matter, we will have to politically

fight the doubt, but let the State Governments association not be

discriminatory but made obligatory. This is also important in the Indian

context because the type of terrorism we face, what is happening in the

North East, without the involvement of the North-Eastern States, it is

impossible for any national level agency to actually even proceed with

conducting its investigation. The diversity of the terrorist groups that are

active in our country demands that the States be obligatorily associated

with at least these two Acts under the Schedule, the Indian Penal Code

and the Unlawful Activities Act. As far as other six are concerned, yes,

the existing provisions can remain. I think this is the, as far as I can

see, best way in which we can reconcile both these objectives. Having


210

said this, Sir, I have moved a concrete amendment on this score and I

hope the Government will consider this. But having said this, as far as

National Investigation Agency is concerned, I come to the other Bill that

is being clubbed with this, the Unlawful Activities Prevention

(Amendment) Bill. (Contd by 3P/SSS)

SSS/3P/4.10

SHRI SITARAM YECHURY (CONTD.): Now, Sir, this very Government

which we supported at that time and which we support even now, that

Act that they did at that time, and that is, this Government repealed the

POTA. There was logic for repealing the POTA and that logic was the

potential for gross misuse and our own experience of how POTA was

implemented and continues to be implemented even today. But, now it

appears that that logic has somehow been reneged, I would not use a

strong word as 'reneged', but, I would say, compromised with in

bringing in three concepts. Three concepts have been brought back

into these amendment Bills. The first one is in Clause 43 D, which talks

of the increases in the period of detention without bail. We heard the

provisions earlier. I am not repeating them. The proposal in this

amendment is to increase the period under detention to 180 days with

prior availability of bail and 180 days to even frame the charge sheets.

This we are told with a great deal of rhetoric that we have to be a

strong country, we have to be a strong nation to fight terrorism. Look at

the USA how it is fighting terrorism, look at the western countries, how

they are fighting terrorism, but, we are a weak state. But, does USA

do? After 9/11 the Anti-terror laws that they have passed, under the US

laws today, no US citizen can be detained for more than two days. You


211

cannot detain anybody in custody for more than two days without

framing charges. What is the experience of the other western countries?

In Canada, you cannot detain for more than one day. In Russia, you

cannot detain for more than five days. In France, you cannot detain for

more than six days. In Ireland, where they have a very big separatist

movement and very big tension, you cannot detain for more than seven

days. In Turkey, where there is a big problem of fundamentalism and

democracy and fights on the streets, you cannot detain anybody for

more than seven and a half days. In the United Kingdom, a raging

debate took place only a few weeks ago when the proposal came to

increase the period under detention from 26 to 48 days. But the House

of Lords returned it. Since we follow the Westminster tradition let the

Rajya Sabha also return this, even though the Lok Sabha has passed

this. Let the Rajya Sabha return this. So we follow those traditions.

SHRI ANAND SHARMA: You like to be compared with the Lords.

SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: No, no, I am talking of the Upper House,

not to the Lords. What I am saying is, we follow the Westminster

system to the dot. The colour scheme is also the same. The colour

scheme of the House of Commons, the House of Lords is the same as

your Lok Sabha and the Rajya Sabha here and why is the Rajya Sabha

having colour red while Lok Sabha has the colour green? It is because

if the Lok Sabha does something wrong the red light is flashed from

here. We stopped the Lok Sabha. If they passed it to increase it to

180 days, we stopped it now and said, 'do not do this because there

is...


212

SHRI ANAND SHARMA: If we were to do that, then, we know there will

be many Ex-Lords here who would be very happy to take your place

and my place.

SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: That we will not allow. We will do it for

democracy. We will do it for the people not for the Lordship.

Therefore, what I am saying is, please consider that if 90 days is not

sufficient for you to frame a charge sheet and if 180 days is required,

when you have all these countries which you adulate saying that they

are fighting against terror, they are strong States, there are States which

do not compromise on terror, if the maximum there is 46 days in UK

and the minimum is one day in Canada, two days in the USA, five days

in Russia, what message are you giving the world? We are so

incompetent? Our system cannot charge sheet. We cannot frame the

charges. Therefore, I will take such a long time and, then, open up the

Pandora's Box for misuse. We have seen how many youth languish in

Jail even under the 90 days period and we have seen it from Hyderabad

where I grew up, when the Mecca Masjid was taking place.

(Contd. by NBR/3Q)

-SSS/NBR-ASC/3Q/4.15.

SHRI SITARAM YECHURY (CONTD.): Not a single charge has been

proved against them. And, for over a year, this youth is languishing in

jail. What are you creating out of them? Innocently you are putting

them there. But, when they come out, what do they become? Patriot?

You are laying the fertile ground. If you want to fight terrorism, you do

not compromise human rights and fundamental rights to that extent.

That is precisely what I was saying. There can be reasonable


213

restrictions. But, there cannot be such powers which can, actually, lead

to counterproductive situation.

Secondly, there is another clause 43E which deals with the

question of onus of proof. The onus of proof of a person's involvement

in any terrorist act, if any evidence is found of that person in the area of

the act, the onus of proof lies with the person who is accused, not with

the law and not with the court. This is a complete reversal of

conventional wisdom of jurisprudence which says, 'I am innocent until

proven to be guilty.' Here, I am guilty till I prove myself innocent. This

is, again, liable to be grossly misused. Anything that can be planted

belongs to me. I will be arrested and then shown that my belonging

was found on my side and it is me now to prove that I am innocent till

then I will be considered as guilty. This reversal of the entire philosophy

of jurisprudence, we think, is completely unwarranted in this case. If

there is such evidence -- yes, there may be such evidence -- let that be

produced before the court and let the court of law decide. Why do you

want to arm yourself by presumption that because that evidence is there

till I prove myself not guilty, I will be guilty? This is something, again,

which will be liable to be grossly misused.

The third one is 43F (2b) where it says, 'any person who refuses

to furnish information or furnishes wrong information is liable for 3 years

punishment or fine or both.' Now, our point is, the question of the

veracity of his refusal to furnish information is to depend on the report of

an officer of the rank of SP or higher. Now, whether the veracity of that

claim is correct or not why don't you let the court decide. Why do you,

again, want to presume saying that, 'I am saying that he is not


214

furnishing information or furnishing wrong information. Therefore, he is

guilty and he will be imprisoned for 3 years.' So, our experience shows

that these three clauses have all been grossly mis-utilised and created

grievous harm to the country by alienating hundreds of people all over

the country due to wrongful confinement. I want to talk about our

earlier terror laws. What was our own experience of the TADA? Sir, the

TADA was brought in view of Punjab militancy. Sir, in Punjab more than

15,000 people arrested under the TADA. But the conviction rate was

less than 2 per cent for more than 15,000 people! And, then, of the

76,036 people arrested till mid 1994, by 2001, nearly, 99 per cent or

75,200 were in different stages of trial and had not been produced

before any court at all! You keep them in jails for five years or six years.

You don't produce them before the courts. And, then you say why is

terrorism is growing. If you cannot stop or plug such gross misuse of it,

you are creating the fertile ground for enemies of my country to work in

this field. You are providing them the fodder.

(CONTD. BY USY "3R")

-NBR-USY/3R/4.20

SHRI SITARAM YECHURY (CONTD.): This is their gunpowder with

which they work. So, please keep that in mind. What happened to the

POTA? As I said, very correctly they withdrew it. The Central POTA

Review Committee, in May 2005, went through all the POTA detainees in

Gujarat. And, then, what did it say. I am quoting paragraph 40 of the

Review Committee's Report. It says, "After appreciating the evidence

made available to us, and considering the respective arguments of the

learned counsel of the accused people and the learned Public


215

Prosecutor, the Committee is of the considered view that the incident

had taken place on the date, time and place, as alleged by the

prosecution, but, certainly not as a part of the conspiracy envisaged

under the provisions of the POTA." Then, it goes on to say to release

all these people under the POTA and try them with the other laws that

exist in our country. What is the reality? These people continue to

remain in jail under the POTA even today. While we are discussing this,

they are still under the POTA after the Review Committee gave it in May

2005. Three-and-a-half years have passed after the Review Committee

said that its decision would be final. But these people are still

languishing in jails.

(MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN in the Chair)

What sort of fight against terror is this of gross misuse of human

liberties? Fight against terror by all means which all of us united, as one

man, will do it together. But that fight has to be done within the

democratic framework that we have and the federal structure that we

have. And, we think, it is perfectly possible. It is perfectly possible to

conduct this fight against terrorism. Strengthen our fight against

terrorism through the concrete amendments that I have suggested,

without encroaching upon the rights of the States. We can conduct this

fight against terror without unduly affecting the human liberties and

fundamental human rights of our people. And, that can be done if we

can actually accept the concrete amendments that we have suggested;

that we can reconcile both these conflicting objectives that the Home

Minister had said when he was introducing these Bills. I see them not

conflicting per se, I see them how you have to temper both these


216

objectives in order to ensure that one is not violently encroached upon

in order to pursue the other. So, I do not subscribe to the theory that

in order to pursue the fight against terrorism you have to curtail human

liberties and human rights. There will be reasonable restrictions, but

beyond that I don't think that anything further drastic needs to be done.

Therefore, Sir, finally I would like to say that we should not

proceed with certain knee-jerk reactions. The Home Minister has

graciously said that they would revisit these laws once again in February

when we meet. If you are going to revisit these laws, why did you not

send it to the Standing Committee for a proper examination? And, if

you are going to revisit these laws, then, what is the point in which you

are hurrying through this process. We want to strengthen ourselves in

our fight against terrorism, but in order to do so let there not be knee-

jerk reactions. Please seriously pay attention and consideration to the

amendments moved by us. In that way, try and reasonably measure out

the manner in which we are proceeding to fight against terrorism but, at

the same time, also protecting the rights of individuals and the federal

rights of the States under our Constitution.

Again, Sir, I would only wish you underline that the fight against

terrorism is not only through legal laws and legal means. I had said that

at the outset that there are many steps that will have to be taken to

prevent such attacks from taking place rather than bringing in laws in

order to deal with such attacks after they have taken place. Both are

important. Yes, you bring in these laws to fight, but these laws per se

can only act as a deterrent, but they cannot act as prevention. In order

to have the prevention, as what I have suggested earlier, the other areas


217

need to be looked into. There needs to be a greater coordination

between our investigating agencies and security agencies; that is one

thing apart. But, most importantly, the political climate and atmosphere

has to be created to fight terrorism and fight unitedly by all of us as

Indians. That's why, today, while we pay homage to Mr. Hemant

Karkare, we pay homage to all those people who laid down their lives

there, please recollect, hours before they gave up their lives, the sort of

vilification that was being done against them, because they were

pursuing a particular investigation of a particular military school.

(Contd. by 3s -- VP)

VP/4.25/3S

SHRI SITARAM YECHURY (CONTD.): You cannot have such double

standards. If you want to fight terrorism, you have to create the

atmosphere in our country where communalism cannot feed terrorism

and terrorism cannot be an instrument for communal polarisation for

political ends. We have to end that atmosphere, otherwise, we cannot

fight terrorism in our country. That is one precondition. The other

precondition is, you have to eliminate the sort of stark poverty,

impoverishment and depravity that we find in large parts of our country.

It is this poverty that creates and lays the basis; foundation,

unfortunately, for such terrorist groups and activities to flourish. The

flavour of the month or, let us say, the flavour of the times, after the

USA election, after the victory of Mr. Obama, has changed. They were

seeking a change and everybody wants a change. But, what is the

change I see in my country? You go out of this Parliament House, you

walk through any red light in our country, on the roads here, you will


218

find people asking for change. They are asking for change from your

pockets. These are beggars on the streets. They are not asking for a

change of the system which we are talking about. But, if you don't

change that situation where people are asking petty change from your

pockets as their only means of livelihood, you will forever keep providing

all anti-democratic forces like terrorists the fertile ground for recruiting

people from these areas. Unless you follow economic policies that will

eliminate these conditions, you will not succeed in your fight against

terrorism. So, let us not reduce our fight against terrorism only to the

enactment of some laws, as important as they may be. But, let us take

up this fight against terrorism in right earnest, as a united country, in a

secular manner where terrorism has to be fought without any tags of

religion, region, caste or creed, where terrorism will have to be fought by

creating those conditions, those preconditions on which terrorism or

terrorists can't thrive. It is that sort of an India we have to create if we

have to fight terrorism.

Therefore, on behalf of my party, I would request the Government

to concretely consider the amendments that we have moved because

we think these amendments are to strengthen the struggle against

terrorism on the one hand and to safeguard the federal content of the

Indian Constitution, the civil liberties and human rights of our people on

the other.

Finally, it should pursue policies which will create a more

egalitarian society rather than create disparities which will be used from

the bottom end by the terrorists for their activities to thrive. So, Sir,

unless we do it in a holistic manner, we will not succeed in this struggle.


219

I hope the Government will take these amendments seriously. I request

them to accept these amendments and let us, together, enact this

legislation with these amendments so that we can strengthen our fight

against terrorism. Thank you, Sir. (Ends)

THE MINISTER OF SCIENCE & TECHNOLOGY AND MINISTER OF

EARTH SCIENCES (SHRI KAPIL SIBAL): Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, I

am, indeed, grateful to intervene in this very, very significant debate. I

want to record my appreciation both for the Opposition in this House,

my good friends on the right, but, otherwise, on the left, for supporting

the setting up of a National Investigating Agency, as well as,

amendment to the Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Act. But, I thought

that we would proceed with this debate without any sense of acrimony,

without any accusations against each other so that we can send a

message not to the nation but also the rest of the world that in our fight

against terrorism we stand together. I was hoping that that would

happen. Unfortunately, that didn't happen. I am absolutely surprised

that my learned friend, Mr. Arun Jaitley, who is very capable, made a

very curious statement in this House by saying that republicanism and

national sovereignty can't go together.

(Continued by PB/3T)

PB/3T/4.30

SHRI KAPIL SIBAL (CONTD.): That's extraordinary. I thought that

republicanism and passion for republicanism, passion for human rights is

the only secure way to ensure national sovereignty; and I can do no

more than, in a way, put the substance of the words of the Prime

Minister in a recent International Conference on "Jurists on Terrorism,


220

Rule of Law and Human Rights held on 13th of December where he, in

substance, said the following, which is a marriage between

republicanism and our national sovereignty. This is what he said. He

said, "We need to be resolute, yet careful in our fight against terrorism.

We need to understand the relationship between human rights and the

fight against terrorism. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive.

They can go hand in hand. When in conflict, it is possible to resolve

them. Systematic terrorist acts qualify as crimes against humanity. They

sometimes threaten national security. In certain circumstances, States

are both entitled and obliged to take steps that derogate from human

rights principles. We should not feel discouraged. Certain rights and

freedoms can be derogated from, but only to the extent necessary to

meet the security threat. The fight against terrorism should not result in

brutalisation of our society. We must also ensure that no group or

section of society gets targeted in our commitment to fight terrorism.

What is required is flexibility. We cannot put our rights and freedoms at

risk while dealing with terrorists.' I think, Sir, that is really a statement

which encapsulates the significance of the connection between

republicanism and national sovereignty.

Sir, there are five statements that my good friend made at the

outset which he gave as reasons which were untenable prior to what

happened in Mumbai and the first of those five statements says that 'we

said that anti-terror laws were against minorities.' I don't think any of us

has ever made that statement. We have always said that 'we have seen

with our own eyes and through the knowledge that we get from what is

around us that anti-terror Acts in the past, in particular, POTA, were


221

actually used against minorities.' The law was not against minorities. But

it was used against the minorities, and that is what we said. We never

said that 'anti-terror laws are anti-minority.' And the proof of the

pudding, Sir, is in the eating. I remind my good friend, Mr. Jaitley, of

what happened in Godhara. On the 27th of February, after that horrible

event, about 90-odd people were put in jail and it was set out time after

time through public statements by responsible people in this country that

these are all terrorists. Now, Sir, we are in 2008 and by February, 2009,

seven years would have passed. May I say on the record of this House

that not any of them has got bail?

Sir, under POTA, there was a Review Committee which is a

statutory Committee; and, in terms of that Committee, on 16th of May,

2005, that Committee came to this conclusion; and, I quote, "In our

opinion, this is a simple case of unlawful assembly committing various

offences under the Penal Code and other special Acts but certainly not

under the provisions of the POTA." This decision came in 2005. The

Gujarat Government refused to implement it. They refused to implement

it. The Public Prosecutor moved the Magistrate saying that 'you don't

accept the opinion of the Review Committee.' The matter ultimately had

to go to the Supreme Court, and, on October 21, 2008, this is what the

Supreme Court said, and, I quote, ... (Contd. by 3u/MKS)

MKS-AKA/4.35/3U

SHRI KAPIL SIBAL (CONTD.):

"We, therefore, hold that once the Review Committee, on review, under section 23 of the Repealing Act, expresses the opinion that there is no prima facie case for proceeding against the accused in


222

cases in which cognisance has been taken by the court, such cases shall be deemed to have been withdrawn."

These cases were deemed to have been withdrawn in 2005, but, in

2008, they are still languishing in jail! They have not got bails, Sir.

Forget about the bail. No charges have been framed against them after

almost seven years! This is what we meant, Sir. POTA was not an

anti-minority law. But POTA was being used by them against the

minorities. ...(Interruptions)... This is the first statement that my learned

friend made.

The second statement that he made was that we said that no

special law was required because that would infringe human rights. We,

again, never said that at no stage, any member of our Government, or

when we were in opposition, we never said that. We only said, please

do not misuse an instrument of law as an instrument of oppression

against a particular community. So, I want to just set the record

straight.

The third statement that he made was that we said that this law

would provide scope for misuse and abuse. Not only did we say it; we

proved it. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. We have shown to

you how certain Governments have misused these laws.

And, then, he said that we also said that anti-terror laws do not

prevent terrorism. We still stand by that, Sir. POTA was in place when

this great Institution was attacked. It was in place. MOCOCA was in

place when Mumbai was attacked. The terrorists attacked Parliament

despite POTA and the terrorists attacked Mumbai despite MOCOCA!

Laws do not prevent terrorists from attacking and killing the innocent


223

people. Attacks are made on the basis of the mindset of people, and

what we have to fight......(Interruptions)... I am not going into the debate

on communalism. I am just going to say about the assumptions, the

statements attributed to us; I want to set the record straight on the floor

of the House.

My learned friend has made four assumptions on the basis of

which he has attempted to attack the Government. Firstly, he said that

we have brought back POTA. He said he has mixed feelings about it

because it is like a halfway house, and in a sense, we have brought

back POTA. Well, I am afraid, that assumption is completely wrong.

We have not brought back POTA, and I will prove it to you in the letter

and words that we have not.

The second assumption that he made was that this is a cut-and-

paste job, that basically, we have borrowed this law from POTA and, in

a sense, it is stealing intellectual properly. Well, I will demonstrate to

him that that is also wrong in substance.

The third thing that he said was: "How will you get convict of

Lakhvi? How will you get conviction of other people in Pakistan unless

you make the confession of an accused to a police officer, admissible in

evidence? You can't do that. Because if you had POTA in place, we

could have done that." The third assumption is completely wrong. I will

demonstrate it presently.

The last assumption which he made was very unfortunate. He

said that this Government has led this country vulnerable. I don't think

that any Member of this House could make such a statement. No

Governments want their country ever to be vulnerable; not even yours.


224

If and when you come to power, we will never make that statement, in

any part of this House. Yes, the country was attacked. Yes, our Home

Minister went to Bombay and said, "We are sorry." But it is not as if it

has not happened in the past. If I start telling you as to what has

happened after 2001 and the number of times this country was attacked

by terrorists despite POTA, it would be a sad story. But I do not want

to indulge in that blame-game. That is not the purpose of this debate.

Let us have a constructive debate. (Contd. by TMV/3W)

-MKS-TMV-VNK/3W/4.40

SHRI KAPIL SIBAL (CONTD.): Now, let me go back to the first

assumption. He has said that we have brought back POTA in this

amendment of the Unlawful Activities Act. There are three provisions

that we have now incorporated in this Bill. One is that section 167 of

the Code of Criminal Procedure has been incorporated with some

variation. The second is the bail provision and the third is confession.

My learned friend knows that confession has not been brought back in

any way. As far as the bail provision is concerned, the original bail

provision of POTA was a modification of TADA. The original TADA

provision is that if an accused wants bail, then the Public Prosecutor

must be given an opportunity to oppose it. If the Public Prosecutor

opposes it, two conditions have to be satisfied before bail can be

granted. The first condition is that the court must come to the

conclusion that the accused is not guilty of the offence. Now, I wonder

how a court can ever come to a conclusion that a person is not guilty of

an offence before the trial! Impossible! So, naturally, nobody ever got

bail. The second condition is that in the event the bail is granted, he


225

will not commit an offence in future. Now, how can any court come to

a conclusion that if it grants him bail, he will not commit an offence?

No court ever comes to that conclusion. That was a TADA provision.

Now, the POTA provision left out the latter part, namely, the satisfaction

of the judge that if he is granted bail he will not commit another offence.

But they kept the other part, namely, that he must come to the

conclusion that he is not guilty of the offence. The result was nobody

ever got bail. Is that the purpose of criminal jurisprudence? Therefore,

in the present provision we have made a substantive change which is

the balancing of human rights consistent with our Constitutional

principles and taking care of our national security. The provision is the

following: If a person wants bail the Public Prosecutor has to be heard

and if the Public Prosecutor opposes the bail, then the judge can't grant

bail. Unless the judge grants bail, the judge comes to the conclusion

that he has prima facie committed an offence, not that he is innocent.

That prima facie there is evidence to show that he has committed an

offence is the provision of the Code of Criminal Procedure in cases of

murder, whether it is life imprisonment or death. The same principle in

the Code of Criminal Procedure which is applicable to cases where

punishment is death or life imprisonment is now put back into this law.

It is a substantive depart from POTA and it has nothing to do with POTA

and the provision of confession to a police officer has been dropped.

The third provision is the detention of 180 days which my learned

friend talked about. There is again a difference between POTA and the

present provision. Under POTA, if the Public Prosecutor made an

application to the court that he could not complete his investigation,


226

merely on that application, without anything more, the judge had to give

him time for 180 days. Under the present law if an application is made--

because the provisions said, "shall grant an extension for 180 days"--it

says, "the court, if it is satisfied that the investigating authorities have

done whatever they could, may grant extension". Again, it has nothing

to do with the POTA provision. So, qua all the basic provisions on

which we had opposition, we have not accepted any of POTA. So, for

you to say that we have brought back POTA through the backdoor and

that is why you have mixed feelings, I am afraid, the whole assumption

is wrong, Mr. Jaitley.

Secondly, it is very interesting, he asked: How are you going to

get the people convicted? How are you going to get conviction of the

people in Pakistan, unless you have the confession provision? Well, Mr.

Jaitley knows in a court of law and under POTA, even if you had POTA

today, you could not get conviction of the people in Pakistan because

POTA provision on confession says--this is something in the law itself--

that the confession of an accused will be only used against him.

(Contd. by 3X/VK)

VK/3X/4.45

SHRI KAPIL SIBAL (CONTD): It cannot be used against the third

person. This is an amendment you made, Mr. Jaitley; your Government

made. I will give you the law. You are shaking your head. I will give it

to you. This is the POTA provision. It says, "...shall be admissible in

the trial of such person for an offence under this Act or the rules made

thereunder. The confession shall be recorded in an atmosphere free

from threat or inducement and shall be in the same language in which


227

the person makes it. The person from whom a confession has been

recorded under sub-section (1) shall be produced before the

Metropolitan Magistrate.." So the confession has to be used against

him alone. That is the law.

Now I tell you what TADA said and what MOCOCA said. This is

what TADA said which you departed from. Section 15 of TADA says,

"...shall be admissible in the trial of such person or co-accused, abettor

or conspirator for an offence under this Act or rules made thereunder".

That was the TADA provision. They took out co-accused under POTA.

They took out abettor and they took out conspirator.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sibal, kindly address the Chair.

SHRI KAPIL SIBAL: I am just indicating through you, Sir, ...

SHRI ARUN JAITLEY: Sir, my learned friend should be obsessed

against terrorists, not against me. (Interruptions). Being a Minister, he

should not be apologetic.....(Interruptions).

SHRI KAPIL SIBAL: Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, the point that I am

making is, it is very unfortunate for a man who knows the law to make a

statement of such a serious nature that if POTA had been there we

could have got conviction of other people who are in Pakistan. That is

a very serious statement. Then to accuse this Government

....(Interruptions).

SHRI ARUN JAITLEY: Sir, if he wrongly quotes me and then he

answers something which I have not said, either we make it a personal

debate and I answer him back or he talks about the Bill that this

Government has brought.


228

SHRI KAPIL SIBAL: Sir, I do not want to answer him because he will

say I am trying to answer.....(Interruptions).

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please.

SHRI ARUN JAITLEY: Everything you said on the Gujarat case, you

concealed the basic facts. You concealed the facts how your

Government helped the persons who set the train on fire. If you want,

let the entire history of the case be discussed. (Interruptions). The

Central Government filed affidavits. They have not been granted bail

because the Supreme Court did not....(Interruptions). The Supreme

Court said, "They are still guilty under Section 302. So, they can't be

given bail". The Minister of the Government ....

SHRI KAPIL SIBAL: That is incorrect. I have got the Supreme Court

judgement. I do not want to go into it.

SHRI ARUN JAITLEY: They have been denied bail. (Interruptions).

SHRI KAPIL SIBAL: I have quoted to you the Supreme Court

judgement. I have not said anything more than that. I don't want to

enter into any debate here.

SHRI ARUN JAITLEY: That is only on the binding nature of a Review

Committee finding.

SHRI KAPIL SIBAL: If you don't mind....(Interruptions). Sir, the point I

am making is, this particular law is a great departure from POTA. We

stand by what we did, namely, we repealed POTA; we have not got

back POTA; we have no intentions of bringing back POTA. What we

have done is to ensure that in certain circumstances an investigation

can carry on for 180 days and in certain circumstances bail can be

granted and no confessions to a police officer are admissible in


229

evidence. That is all we have done. The second point he made was that

once Kasab makes a confession, it can be used against others. Now,

Sir, in an investigation what happens is, you get hold of somebody and

you ask him to confess. Then you have to get the presence of other

people who are involved. Unless you get the presence of those people

you can't carry on with the investigation because you cannot prosecute

those people. So you have to get custody of those people from

Pakistan. Once you get custody of those people from Pakistan, you

interrogate them. After you interrogate them, you get evidence. Once

you get evidence, you can convict them on that evidence. You don't

have to depend on x's confession to convict 'y'. You have to depend

on your investigation and your interrogation. If you don't get custody of

the accused, how would you convict them?

(Contd. by 3Y)

RG/SC/4.50/3Y

SHRI KAPIL SIBAL (contd.): To say, therefore, at this point in time, as

to how we would convict the others unless we get the confession, is

meaningless. You have to first get the custody, which is what this

Government is trying. This is what this Government has told Pakistan,

"Please give us the custody of Lakhvi. Please give us the custody of all

those whom Kasab has named." Now, if they are sent to India, then,

we have a right to interrogate them. Once we have a right to

interrogate them, we will get the evidence. Once we get the evidence,

we will be able to prove the charges against them. The argument,

therefore, doesn't stand on reason; it is based on an assumption that

doesn't exist. Then, my learned friend said, "Look, as far as you are


230

concerned, you have opened yourselves to the charge that without

bringing in this tough law, you are a vulnerable State." I am afraid that

is not fair for him to say a thing like that. How is it that we are a

vulnerable State? We are a vulnerable State because of the fact that for

the last 20 or 30 years, we have not paid attention to the kind of things

that ought to have done to empower our intelligence agencies, to equip

them with proper instruments, to ensure that they have proper

mechanisms for investigation, to arm them with the most modern

weapons and to ensure co-operation of both investigating and

intelligence agencies through out the country. That is the reason why

we have not been able to arm ourselves with the kind of weaponry and

the kind of paraphernalia that we need to counter terrorists. And that

has nothing to do with one Government or the other. In the last 20 or

30 years, that has not been done. And this has been proved in

Mumbai. It had been proved when Parliament was attacked. It had

been proved in Akshardham. It had been proved in Kaluchar. It had

been proved in all the attacks that have taken place. And that blame

doesn't go to one Government or the other. As a society, we have not

moved forward to protect ourselves, and that is what we need to do.

Sir, what is POTA? POTA is used when a terrorist is caught.

Then, you deal with terrorists. POTA has nothing to do with an attack

via terrorists. Before he is caught, POTA doesn't come into play. So,

POTA does not prevent an attack. POTA ensures conviction. POTA

ensures punishment. POTA ensures evidence. POTA does not prevent

an attack. And what we are talking about is prevention. We are not


231

talking about punishment. These laws deal with punishment. These

laws do not deal with prevention...(Interruptions)

ÁÖß ¸ü‘Öã®Ö®¤ü®Ö ¿Ö´ÖÖÔ : ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, µÖê ¯ÖÖê™üÖ Ûêú •ÖÖ»Ö ´Öë ±ÓúÃÖ ÝÖ‹ Æïü… ‡®ÖÛúÖê ¯ÖÖê™üÖ Ûêú

•ÖÖ»Ö ÃÖê ×®ÖÛúÖ×»Ö‹…..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..

ÁÖß Ûú»Ö¸üÖ•Ö ×´ÖÁÖ : †Ö¯Ö †ÝÖ¸ü ×¾ÖÂÖµÖ ¯Ö¸ü ²ÖÖê»ÖëÝÖê ŸÖÖê •µÖÖ¤üÖ †“”ûÖ ÆüÖêÝÖÖ… ¯ÖÖê™üÖ-¯ÖÖê™üÖ Ûú¸üÛêú

†Ö¯Ö ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö).. ¯ÖÖê™üÖ ÛúÖê ÃÖã¬ÖÖ¸üÛú¸ü †Ö¯Ö †“”ûÖ »ÖÖ‹ Æïü, ‡ÃÖ ¯Ö¸ü ²ÖÖê×»Ö‹…

ÁÖß Ûú×¯Ö»Ö ×ÃÖ²²Ö»Ö : ‡ÃÖÛúÖ ŸÖÖê ´Öï®Öê ²ÖŸÖÖ ×¤üµÖÖ… Now, Sir, the third point that he

raised was, "Look; you have stolen our intellectual property. It is

something that you have just cut and paste from POTA." I just want to

put the record straight. When they came to power, it was in 1996 for 13

days, in 1998 for 13 months and then till 2004. Prior to that, they have

never really been in power except during 1977-79. All the laws, that

have been framed, have been framed by the Congress (I) Government.

In 1999, when they came to power, they copied TADA and made

MCOCA in Maharashtra. I don't want to go into those provisions. All

the provisions of MCOCA are a replication of TADA. All the basic

provisions, that I have talked about, are a replication of TADA. I have

got the MCOCA Act with me; I don't want to enter into the controversy.

Now, all the provisions, that he has relied upon in POTA, are a 'cut and

paste' of all the previous Acts that have been passed by the Congress

(I) Government; whether it is the Narcotics Act or it is the COFEPOSA or

it is the FEMA or any other Act. All the provisions exist in those Acts.

What they did was they copied TADA and brought POTA, and then, they

say as if POTA is something which they have been able to put on the

book. This kind of argument is like a child saying, "ŸÖæ®Öê ´Öê¸üÖ ÛúÖò¯Öß Ûú¸ü

×»ÖµÖÖ…" Is this the kind of argument to be made in a House saying,


232

"Look; you did a cut and paste job"? I don't think these kind of

arguments should be made on a very serious issue that we are faced

with today, that is, terrorism. (Continued by 3Z)

TDB/3Z/4.55

SHRI KAPIL SIBAL (CONTD.): Sir, the last point I wish to make is that

they had six years to set up a national or a federal agency to investigate

crimes. Really, if they had set up that agency, we would be in a

stronger position today. They had six long years; they were not able to

do it. Why they were not able to do it, I don't understand. But, the fact

of the matter is that this investigative agency is really the basis on which

intelligence gathering will be made in this country, and cooperation will

be had with all agencies throughout the country along with

modernisation and electronic equipment so that there is a national server

on the basis of which information in that server will be analysed and

people can prevent acts taking place. This Agency was a much needed

agency. It ought to have been set up by us long time ago, and I don't

even blame them. What they ought to do is to cooperate with us and

say, 'look, this is good'. He said so; I am glad that he had said so. This

National Investigating Agency will be the one which will be the backbone

for prevention because this is the one that gathers the evidence to

ensure that there are preventive acts. The amendment to the Unlawful

Activities Act is nothing to do with prevention. It is something to do with

punishment. I am afraid, the points that are sought to be made in a

national debate ought not to point fingers at the other party and say,

'you were not able to save India from a terrorist attack.' Because that, I

am afraid, should not be the tenor of this debate, as my learned friend


233

has made it out to be. Because terrorism is not something that can be

prevented by anybody. These acts have been taking place right from the

beginning. These are hundreds of years old. Terrorist acts have

happened in the past, except that now with modernisation of equipment,

terrorists are able to attack using better weapons than even those who

can defend themselves. So, terrorism is not something that can be

wished away. Even America can't wish it away. See, what is happening

in Iraq. The Americans have not been able to quell terrorism in Iraq,

despite the fact that they have the most modern weaponry.

SHRIMATI BRINDA KARAT: They created it.

SHRI KAPIL SIBAL: That is not the point. The point is, they have not

been able to. Weapons can't by themselves destroy terrorism. You have

to have a mindset, and if you follow a policy, that breeds terrorism,

then, in the ultimate analysis, you will fall prey to it. Therefore, these

debates should not be the kind of communal debates that we are seeing

in this country. These acts should not be acts used as instruments of

oppression against a, b and c. These acts should not be there to say

because you are soft on terror, therefore, you want to favour a particular

community, you want vote-bank politics, that is why you are doing this.

This is what vitiates the atmosphere. I can understand the politics

behind it. But, if you really want to care about the security of this

country, or, you are concerned about the security of this country, don't

play politics with security, don't play politics with terrorism. Don't say

that you are doing this because you are trying to protect a particular

community. We will protect anybody that need to be protected, no

matter what his religion is. But, the problem is, you are using it as an


234

instrument. I mean, I heard national leaders saying, 'look, people are

torturing somebody in jail'. I heard national leaders say that somebody is

being tortured in jail. Why should we torture knowing full well, and my

good friend will know about it that every lawyer knows about it that

whenever an accused is charged with an offence and he is put in

custody, he comes out with an application saying, 'I am tortured'. So,

suddenly, for one particular person in India, it became a national issue

that person is being tortured, that while hundreds and hundreds of

people are rotting in jails today and are being tortured, denied bail,

nobody speaks for them. That is why I say don't use these acts as

instruments of politics for your national agenda which is to divide

society, which is to build barriers amongst people. And that is the tenor

of the debate today. 'You were soft on terror, we are strong on terror'.

They tried it in Delhi, and see what happened. The people in this

country are far too mature to be taken in by all this. They have shown

their maturity. And, you know their 'poster boy' roamed all around the

States, talking about terror. (Contd. by 4a-kgg)

kgg/asc/5.00/4a

SHRI KAPIL SIBAL (contd.): I remember distinctly, when we talked about

intelligence failure when Kargil took place and a whole territory was

occupied, we said, "There is a big intelligence failure', and they said,

"You are anti-national". They said, we are anti-national. Why? Because

we said there was an intelligence failure. They talked about intelligence

failure even while we were being attacked in Mumbai. They were not

anti-national then! Why? Because it served their politics! They went to

Mumbai, some of their poster boys made statements in Mumbai, 'I give


235

this amount of money to this person, I give this amount of money to this

person.' (Interruptions)

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.. (¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..

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¸üÆêü Æïü… (¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..

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236

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SHRI KAPIL SIBAL: When an hon. Member brought the issue about Mr.

Antuley, there was nothing about the unlawful activities. It has nothing to

do with it. He brought it up. If he can bring it up, can I not bring it up?

(Interruptions) The problem is, if you had put your case before the

House on the basis of law, I would have argued the law. But you tried


238

to make out as if this Government has made India vulnerable. I am

shocked at your statement. Is that a responsible statement in the

context of the fact that we are trying together to fight terror?

(Contd. by kls/4b)

KLS/4B-5.05

SHRI KAPIL SIBAL (CONTD): This is not fair and that is all I am

saying. What is that that we are trying to do? We are trying to make

sure that when a fight in respect of terror we must respect the basic

constitutional principles that we are adhered to and we swear by and at

the same time make sure that the laws do not brutalise society. These

are the two balancing factors. We have tried the best that we could.

You can have a difference of opinion and you can say that we do not

agree with it and when you come to power you change it with the

majority that you have but you cannot say that you have made this

country vulnerable. That you cannot say in a debate like this, that is not

the statement of a responsible person. That is all I am saying out of a

party. That is all, nothing more I wish to say. You want to talk about

the law, you differ on the law, you want to bring back the 'confession',

and you bring back the confession. May I just end up by saying one

thing? Sir, Kartar Singh case was decided by a majority of three to two

and in 2005, 11 Supreme Case 600, this is what the Judges said about

Kartar Singh. I may just quote this for you. This is what they said, they

talked about Kartar Singh case "The Court thus merely emphasise the

obvious and added a remark that the Court on several occasions

awarded exemplary compensation to the victims at hands of the police."

Para 54, the Constitution Bench judgement is binding on us, that is,


239

Kartar Singh is binding on us. In fact, the ratio of the judgment applies

with greater force to POTA as the guidelines set out by the Constitution

Bench are substantially incorporated into Section 32. It is perhaps too

late to seek reconsideration of the view taken by a majority of Judges of

the Constitution Bench but as we see Section 32 a formidable doubt

lingers in our minds, despite the pronouncement of Kartar Singh that

pertains to the rationale and the reason behind drastic provision making

the confession to a police officer admissible in evidence in a trial for the

POTA detainee. Not I, not Congress Party, not UPA, it is the Supreme

Court saying this. ....(Interruptions)... Many questions do arise and we

are unable to find satisfactory or even plausible answers to them. We

do not think that the comparative is with which the confession could be

extracted from the accused would be pleaded as justification." If it is

so, should the end justify the means? Should the police officer be

better trusted than a Magistrate? Does the magnitude and severity of

the offence justify the entrustment of job of the recording of a

confession to a police officer? Does it imply that it is easier to make an

accused confess the guilt before a police officer so that it could pave

the way for conviction in a serious offence? I find no direct answer to

these questions either in Kartar Singh or the latest case of People's

Unity. Not me, the Supreme Court is saying that do not give this power

to police officers. So, if you want a confession under the Criminal

Procedure Code, Section 164 gives you that right. You can take a

confession before a Magistrate. That right is intact; you can get that

confession. So, you can get that confession. So, the Supreme Court

doubts it, Civil Liberty People doubt it, we have doubts about it and if


240

we have done something reasonable, we made the country vulnerable! Is that

the argument that if we do something reasonable we make the country

vulnerable because it is not reasonable as far as you are concerned? It is this

kind of debate, this polarised debate by which you want the outside world to

know, to score political points which has destroyed the unity of this country

and which has not enabled us to fight terrorism in the way we should. My

request to you and to all the hon. Members of this House is that get out of

that mindset. After all, everything evolves in life, including your thinking,

including the way the political parties should think and should work.

Mindset should also change. This is the law of the nature. Nothing is

ever constant. I hope in the time to come and I have no mixed feelings

about it, I have strong feelings that the NDA and the BJP are the

nationalist people. (Contd by 4C)

PSV-SSS/4C/5.10

SHRI KAPIL SIBAL (CONTD.): In their heart they have the desire to

protect the security of the nation. They may sometimes use that

argument for political end. But, in your heart, I know that you too want

to protect the nation. But, don't in that process destroy the unity of this

country, which is fundamental to this country being together, not just

extremism, not just terrorism but also all other challenges that we face.

We are at the threshold of a new century and in that we need to get

together to fight the scourge of terrorism together and unitedly. Thank

you very much.

(Ends)


241

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---------------------------------------------------- * Not recorded.


243

³Ö¦ü ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ ×•Ö®ÖÛêú ÃÖÓ¸üõÖÞÖ ´Öë Æü´ÖÖ¸êü ×´Ö¡Ö Ûú»Ö¸üÖ•Ö •Öß ¿ÖÖÃÖ®Ö Ûú¸ü ¸üÆêü £Öê, ˆ®ÖÛêú ‘Ö¸ü

´Öë ˆ®ÆüÖë®Öê ‹Ûú Æü×£ÖµÖÖ¸ü ¸üÜÖ ×¤üµÖÖ †Öî¸ü Æü×£ÖµÖÖ¸ü ¸üÜÖÛú¸ü ²Ö¸üÖ´Ö¤ü ³Öß Ûú¸ü ×¤üµÖÖ…

ÁÖß ²ÖÎ•Öê¿Ö ¯ÖÖšüÛú : ´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ •Öß, ‡ÃÖ ŸÖ¸üßÛêú ÃÖê ÃÖ¤ü®Ö ´Öë †ÝÖ¸ü ÛúÖê‡Ô ²ÖµÖÖ®Ö ¤êüŸÖÖ Æîü

ŸÖÖê µÖÆü ÝÖ»ÖŸÖ Æîü… ‡ÃÖ ŸÖ¸üßÛêú ÃÖê •ÖÖê ²ÖÆüÃÖ ÆüÖê ¸üÆüß Æîü… ...(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)... ²ÖÆüÃÖ ÆüÖê ¸üÆüß Æîü

¸üÖÂ™ÒüßµÖ •ÖÖÓ“Ö ‹•ÖëÃÖß ¯Ö¸ü ...(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)... ‡ÃÖ ŸÖ¸üßÛêú ÃÖê Æü´Ö ²Ö¤üÖÔ¿ŸÖ Ûú¸ü®Öê ¾ÖÖ»Öê ®ÖÆüà Æïü…

ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü : ´ÖŸÖ Ûú×¸ü‹, †Ö¯ÖÛúÖê •ÖÖê Ûú¸ü®ÖÖ Æîü Ûú×¸ü‹ ...(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)...

ÁÖß ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ : †Ö¯Ö ²Öî×šü‹ ...(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)... ¯ÖÖšüÛú •Öß, †Ö¯Ö ²Öî×šü‹…

ÁÖß ²ÖÎ•Öê¿Ö ¯ÖÖšüÛú : µÖÆü ÛúŸÖ‡Ô “Ö»Ö®Öê ¾ÖÖ»ÖÖ ®ÖÆüà Æîü… ÃÖ¤ü®Ö ´Öë ²ÖÆüÃÖ ÆüÖêÝÖß ˆÃÖ ´Öã§êü ¯Ö¸ü, •ÖÖê

×¾Ö¬ÖêµÖÛú †ÖµÖÖ Æîü µÖÖ •ÖÖê “ÖÖÆëüÝÖê ²ÖÖê»ÖëÝÖê? ...(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)... ‡ÃÖê ×›ü»Öß™ü Ûúß×•Ö‹…

ÁÖß ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ : †Ö¯Ö ²Öî×šü‹… ¯ÖÖšüÛú •Öß, †Ö¯Ö ²Öî×šü‹… †Ö¯Ö ÃÖ³Öß ²Öî×šü‹ ...(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)... †Ö¯Ö

²Öî×šü‹… We should have some sense of tolerance.

SHRI AVTAR SINGH KARIMPURI: Sir, ˆ®ÖÛúÖê ÃÖ´ÖôÖÖ‡‹, ask him not to use

uncivilized language...(Interruptions)...

ÁÖß ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ : †Ö¯Ö ²Öî×šü‹, ¯»Öß•Ö ²Öî×šü‹… ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)... ¯»Öß•Ö ²Öî×šü‹ ®Ö… †Ö¯Ö ²Öîšü •ÖÖ‡‹…

Nothing is going on record...(Interruptions)...

ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü : ÃÖ¸ü, ‹êÃÖÖ Æîü ×Ûú ´Öï †ÝÖ¸ü ÛúÖê‡Ô †ÃÖÓÃÖ¤üßµÖ ³ÖÖÂÖÖ ²ÖÖê»Ö ¸üÆüÖ ÆæÓü †Öî¸ü †ÝÖ¸ü ´Öï

†ÃÖŸµÖ ²ÖÖê»Ö ¸üÆüÖ ÆæÓü ŸÖÖê •ÖÖê ÃÖ•ÖÌÖ Æü´ÖÛúÖê ×´Ö»Ö®Öß “ÖÖ×Æü‹, ˆÃÖÛêú ×»Ö‹ ...(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)...

ÁÖß ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ : †¸êü †Ö¯Ö ²Öî×šü‹ ...(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)...

ÁÖß ²ÖÎ•Öê¿Ö ¯ÖÖšüÛú : Æü×£ÖµÖÖ¸ü ¸üÜÖ®Öê ÛúÖ ÛúÖ´Ö ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)... †ÝÖ¸ü ×ÛúÃÖß Ûêú ‘Ö¸ü ´Öë Æü×£ÖµÖÖ¸ü

²Ö¸üÖ´Ö¤ü Æãü†Ö Æîü ŸÖÖê ¯Öã×»ÖÃÖ †¯Ö®Öß •ÖÖÓ“Ö Ûú¸êüÝÖß, ÛúÖµÖÔ¾ÖÖÆüß Ûú¸êüÝÖß…

ÁÖß ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ : †Ö¯Ö ²Öî×šü‹, †Ö¯Ö ²Öî×šü‹… ...(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)... µÖÆü ÃÖÆüß ®ÖÆüà Æîü, †Ö¯Ö ²Öîšü •ÖÖ‹Ó…

†Ö¯Ö ²Öî×šü‹, ¯»Öß•Ö ²Öî×šü‹…

ÁÖß ²ÖÎ•Öê¿Ö ¯ÖÖšüÛú : ‡®ÖÛúÖê ÃÖ´ÖôÖÖ‡‹ ×Ûú ÛúÖê‡Ô ¸üÖ•Ö®ÖêŸÖÖ ×ÛúÃÖß Ûêú ‘Ö¸ü ´Öë Æü×£ÖµÖÖ¸ü ®ÖÆüà ¸üÜÖŸÖÖ…

..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)...

ÁÖß ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ : µÖÆü ŒµÖÖ Æîü, †Ö¯Ö ²Öî×šü‹ ®Ö… ....(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö) ....µÖÆü ŒµÖÖ ²ÖÖŸÖ Ûú¸ü ¸üÆêü Æïü?

Nothing is going on record...(Interruptions)... ¯»Öß•Ö †Ö¯Ö ²Öî×šü‹, †Ö¯Ö ²Öî×šü‹…


244

We should have some sense of tolerance. It is not possible for the

Chair to direct the Member to speak only this language or that language.

The Chair can only regulate the House. When some un-parliamentary

expressions are used, we will delete them. He is independent to put his

views. But, at the same time, he should concentrate on the

subject...(Interruptions)...How can any Member get up and start saying

whatever he wants? Why should be the Chair then? It is for the Chair

to regulate, not any Member to intervene ...(Interruptions)...

ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü : ¬Ö®µÖ¾ÖÖ¤ü, ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ´Öï ˆ¢Öê×•ÖŸÖ ÃÖÖ£Öß ÛúÖê ×¾Ö®Ö´ÖÏŸÖÖ ÃÖê ²ÖŸÖÖ®ÖÖ

“ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÓü ×Ûú ×•ÖÃÖ ²ÖÖŸÖ ¯Ö¸ü ˆ®ÖÛúÖê ‹ŸÖ¸üÖ•Ö Æîü, ˆÃÖ †Ö¸üÖê¯Ö ¯Ö¸ü ²ÖÖ‡••ÖŸÖ ¸üÖ•ÖÖ ³Ö¦üß Ûêú

¸üÖ•ÖÛãÓú¾Ö¸ü, ÆüÖ‡ÔÛúÖê™Ôü ÃÖê •Ö²Ö»Ö¯Öã¸ü ´Öë µÖÆü ³Öß †Ö¸üÖê¯Ö »ÖÝÖÖ, ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ ´Öï µÖÆü ÛúÆü®Öê ÛúÖ ¤ãü:ÃÖÖÆüÃÖ

Ûú¸ü ¸üÆüÖ ÆæÓü ×Ûú ®µÖÖµÖÖ»ÖµÖ ÃÖê ŸÖÖê ²Ö›Íêü ®ÖÆüà Æïü Æü´ÖÖ¸êü ´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ÃÖÖ£Öß ÃÖÖÓÃÖ¤ü? ®µÖÖµÖÖ»ÖµÖ ®Öê

ˆ®ÖÛúÖê ˆÃÖ †Ö¸üÖê¯Ö ÃÖê ²Ö¸üß Ûú¸ü ×¤üµÖÖ, •ÖÖê †Ö¸üÖê¯Ö ˆ®Ö ¯Ö¸ü »ÖÝÖÖµÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ £ÖÖ… ŸÖÖê •Ö²Ö ®µÖÖµÖÖ»ÖµÖ

®Öê ²Ö¸üß Ûú¸ü ×¤üµÖÖ ×Ûú ¾ÖÆü †¾Öî¬Ö Æü×£ÖµÖÖ¸ü ¸üÜÖÖ Æüß ®ÖÆüà ÝÖµÖÖ £ÖÖ, ²Ö¸üÖ´Ö¤ü Æüß ®ÖÆüà Æãü†Ö £ÖÖ,

»Öê×Ûú®Ö ×•ÖŸÖ®Öê ×¤ü®Ö "¯ÖÖê™üÖ" ÛúÖ "ÃÖÖê™üÖ" ˆ®ÖÛêú ‰ú¯Ö¸ü “Ö»ÖÖ, ˆŸÖ®Öê ×¤ü®Ö Ûúß ¯Öß›ÍüÖ Æîü… ¾ÖÆü

®µÖÖµÖÖ»ÖµÖ «üÖ¸üÖ ²ÖêÛúÃÖæ¸ü ×ÃÖ¨ü ×Ûú‹ ÝÖ‹, ŸÖÖê ˆÃÖ ¯Öß›ÍüÖ ÛúÖ ŒµÖÖ ÆüÖêÝÖÖ? ¾ÖÆü ÛúÆü ¤ëü ×Ûú µÖÆü

†Ö¸üÖê¯Ö »ÖÝÖÖ ×Ûú ˆ¢Ö¸ü ¯ÖÏ¤êü¿Ö ´Öë ¾ÖÆü ®µÖÖµÖÖ»ÖµÖ ÛúÖê ¯ÖÏ³ÖÖ×¾ÖŸÖ Ûú¸ü ¤ëüÝÖê, ²ÖÖÆãü²Ö»Öß Æïü? šüßÛú Æîü ¾ÖÆü

ÝÖ›Íü²Ö›Íü ¾µÖ×ŒŸÖ Æïü †Ö¯ÖÛúß ®Ö•Ö¸ü ´Öë, Æü´Ö ³Öß †ÖŸÖÓÛú¾ÖÖ¤üß Æïü †Ö¯ÖÛúß ®Ö•Ö¸ü ´Öë ŒµÖÖë×Ûú Æü´Ö †Ö¯ÖÛúß

¸üÖ•Ö®Öß×ŸÖ Ûêú ÃÖ´Ö£ÖÔÛú ®ÖÆüà Æïü… ŸÖÖê †¤üÖ»ÖŸÖ ˆ¢Ö¸ü ¯ÖÏ¤êü¿Ö ÃÖê Æü™üÛú¸ü ´Ö¬µÖ ¯ÖÏ¤êü¿Ö ´Öë ÝÖµÖß †Öî¸ü

´Ö¬µÖ ¯ÖÏ¤êü¿Ö Ûúß ÆüÖ‡ÔÛúÖê™Ôü ®Öê ˆ®ÖÛúÖê ²ÖÖ‡••ÖŸÖ ²Ö¸üß Ûú¸ü ×¤üµÖÖ Æîü…

(4 ‡Ô/Ûêú‹»Ö•Öß ¯Ö¸ü ÛÎú´Ö¿Ö:)

4E/KLG-USY/5.20

ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü (ÛÎú´ÖÖÝÖŸÖ) : ˆ®ÖÛúÖê ¸üÖ•Ö®Öß×ŸÖ ´Öë »ÖÖ‹ ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖßµÖ •Ö®ÖŸÖÖ ¯ÖÖ™üá Ûêú †Ö¤ü¸üÞÖßµÖ

†¬µÖõÖ, ´ÖÓ¡Öß ˆ®ÆüÖë®Öê ²Ö®ÖÖµÖÖ… ˆÃÖÛêú ²ÖÖ¤ü Æü×£ÖµÖÖ¸ü ²Ö¸üÖ´Ö¤üÝÖß ´Öë ¯ÖÖê™üÖ ˆÃÖ ¾µÖ×ŒŸÖ ¯Ö¸ü †Ö¯ÖÛêú

¾µÖ×ŒŸÖ Ûêú ¿ÖÖÃÖ®Ö-ÛúÖ»Ö ´Öë »ÖÝÖÖ †Öî¸ü †¤üÖ»ÖŸÖ ®Öê ˆ®Æëü ”ûÖê›ÍüÖ… †ÝÖ¸ü µÖÆü †ÃÖŸµÖ ÆüÖê, ŸÖÖê

†Ö¯ÖÛúÖ •ÖæŸÖÖ, ´Öê¸üÖ ×ÃÖ¸ü… ŒµÖÖ †Ö¯Ö †¤üÖ»ÖŸÖ Ûêú ×®ÖÞÖÔµÖ ÛúÖê ³Öß ®ÖÆüà ´ÖÖ®ÖëÝÖê? ...(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)...


245

†Ö¯Ö †¤üÖ»ÖŸÖ Ûêú ×®ÖÞÖÔµÖ ÛúÖê ³Öß ®ÖÆüà ´ÖÖ®ÖëÝÖê †Öî¸ü ˆÃÖÛêú ²ÖÖ¤ü ˆ¢Öê×•ÖŸÖ ÆüÖëÝÖê, ŒµÖÖë×Ûú †Ö¯ÖÛêú

²ÖÖÆãü²Ö»Ö Ûêú †ÖÝÖê ŸÖÖê ´Öï ¤üß®Ö, Æüß®Ö, ¤ãü²ÖÔ»Ö ¾µÖ×ŒŸÖ ÆæÑü… ...(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)

ÁÖß ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ : †Ö¯Ö ²Öî×šü‹… ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)

ÁÖß ²ÖÎ•Öê¿Ö ¯ÖÖšüÛú : †Ö¯Ö ×ÛúÃÖß ¸üÖ•Ö®ÖêŸÖÖ ÛúÖ ®ÖÖ´Ö ´ÖŸÖ »Öß×•Ö‹… ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)

ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü : ´Öï ®ÖÖ´Ö ®ÖÆüà »Öê ¸üÆüÖ ÆæÑü… ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)

ÁÖß ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ : †Ö¯Ö ²ÖÖ¸ü-²ÖÖ¸ü ŒµÖÖë ˆšü •ÖÖŸÖê Æïü? †Ö¯Ö ²Öî×šü‹… ...(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)

ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü : ´Öï ®ÖÖ´Ö ®ÖÆüà »Öê ¸üÆüÖ ÆæÑü… †Ö¯Ö ŒµÖÖë ÃÖ´ÖôÖŸÖê Æïü ¾ÖÆü ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ Æîü… ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..

†Ö¯Ö ´ÖŸÖ ÃÖ´Ö×ôÖ‹… ¾ÖÆü ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ ®ÖÆüà Æîü… ...(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö).. •Ö²Ö Ûú¸ü ÝÖ‹, ŸÖÖê ›ü¸ü ®ÖÆüà… ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)

ÁÖß ²ÖÎ•Öê¿Ö ¯ÖÖšüÛú : †Ö¯ÖÛúÖ µÖÆü ÛúÆü®ÖÖ ×Ûú ÛúÖê‡Ô ¸üÖ•Ö®ÖêŸÖÖ… ...(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)

ÁÖß ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ : ¤êü×ÜÖ‹… ...(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)

ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü : µÖÆü ˆ®®ÖÖ¾Ö ®ÖÆüà Æîü ×Ûú †Ö¯Ö Æü´ÖÛúÖê ›ü¸üÖÛú¸ü “Öã¯Ö Ûú¸üÖ ¤ëüÝÖê… ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö).. µÖÆü

ˆ®®ÖÖ¾Ö ®ÖÆüà Æîü, •ÖÆüÖÓ ¯Ö¸ü †Ö¯ÖÛúÖ ²ÖÖÆãü²Ö»Ö “Ö»Öê… ...(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..

ÁÖß ²ÖÎ•Öê¿Ö ¯ÖÖšüÛú : ²ÖÖÆãü²Ö»Ö Ûúß ²ÖÖŸÖ ®ÖÆüà Æîü, µÖÆü ¯Öæ¸êü ¤êü¿Ö Ûúß ²ÖÖŸÖ Æîü… ...(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö).. ®ÖêŸÖÖ

ŒµÖÖë Æü×£ÖµÖÖ¸ü ¸üÜÖêÝÖÖ? ...(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)

ÁÖß ˆ¯ÖÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ : ×´ÖÃ™ü¸ü ¯ÖÖšüÛú… ...(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö).. Nothing will go on record. ¤êü×ÜÖ‹

†Ö¯Ö ²Öî×šü‹… ...(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö).. ×ÃÖ±Ôú †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü •Öß ²ÖÖê»ÖëÝÖê, †Öî¸ü ÛúÖê‡Ô ®ÖÆüà ²ÖÖê»ÖêÝÖÖ… ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)

Nothing will go on record except...(Interruptions)... Please follow the

decorum. The whole world is watching us. ¯»Öß•Ö †Ö¯Ö ²Öî×šü‹… You are all

senior Members. What are you doing? People are watching you.

ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü : ´Öï®Öê ¯ÖÆü»Öê Æüß ÛúÆüÖ £ÖÖ ×Ûú ÃÖŸµÖ Ûú™ãü ÆüÖêŸÖÖ Æîü…

ÁÖß ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ : ¯ÖÖšüÛú •Öß, †Ö¯Ö ‡Ó™Òü¯™ü ®Ö Ûú¸ëü… ...(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)

ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü : ÃÖ¸ü, ´Öï®Öê ¯ÖÆü»Öê Æüß ÛúÆüÖ £ÖÖ ×Ûú ÃÖŸµÖ Ûú™ãü ÆüÖêŸÖÖ Æîü †Öî¸ü Ûú™ãü ÃÖŸµÖ ÛúÞÖÔ-×¯ÖÏµÖ

ŸÖÖê ®ÖÆüà ÆüÖê ÃÖÛúŸÖÖ… ´Öï ‡ÃÖ ¸üÖÂ™ÒüßµÖ ²ÖÆüÃÖ ÛúÖê œüß»ÖÖœüÖ»ÖÖ ®ÖÆüà Ûú¸ü ¸üÆüÖ ÆæÑü… ´Öï ¯ÖÖê™üÖ Ûêú

×´ÖÃÖµÖæ•Ö Ûúß ²ÖÖŸÖ, •ÖÖê Æü´ÖÖ¸êü ¤üÖêÃŸÖ Ûú×¯Ö»Ö ×ÃÖ²²Ö»Ö •Öß Ûú¸ü ¸üÆêü £Öê †Öî¸ü •ÖîÃÖÖ Ûú×¯Ö»Ö ×ÃÖ²²Ö»Ö

•Öß ÛúÆü ¸üÆêü £Öê ²ÖÖŸÖ Ûú¸üŸÖê Æãü‹, ‹Ûú ×¾Ö¿ÖêÂÖ ÃÖ´Öã¤üÖµÖ, ŸÖÖê ´Öï †²Ö ¾ÖÆü ³Öß ®ÖÆüà ÛúÆæÓüÝÖÖ ×Ûú

ÛúÖî®ÖÃÖÖ ÃÖ´Öã¤üÖµÖ, ®ÖÆüà ŸÖÖê ˆÃÖ ¯Ö¸ü ³Öß ˆ¢Öê•Ö®ÖÖ †Ö •ÖÖ‹ÝÖß, ‹Ûú ×¾Ö¿ÖêÂÖ ÃÖ´Öã¤üÖµÖ Ûêú ×¾Ö¹ý¨ü


246

‡ÃÖÛúÖ ˆ¯ÖµÖÖêÝÖ Æãü†Ö, ¤ãüºþ¯ÖµÖÖêÝÖ Æãü†Ö… ´Öï µÖÆü †•ÖÔ Ûú¸ü ¸üÆüÖ ÆæÑü ×Ûú ‹Ûú ×¾Ö¿ÖêÂÖ ÃÖ´Öã¤üÖµÖ Ûêú

×¾Ö¹ý¨ü Æüß ‡ÃÖÛúÖ ˆ¯ÖµÖÖêÝÖ ®ÖÆüà Æãü†Ö, ²Ö×»Ûú ¸üÖ•Ö®Öî×ŸÖÛú ¯ÖÏ×ŸÖ«Óü×¤üµÖÖë Ûêú ×¾Ö¹ý¨ü ³Öß Æãü†Ö… “Ö×»Ö‹,

†Ö¯Ö ÛúÆüŸÖê Æïü ‹Ûú ´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ ®ÖÖ´Ö ®Ö »Öë, ŸÖÖê †×¬ÖÛúÖ¸üß ®Öê ×ÛúµÖÖ, »Öê×Ûú®Ö †×¬ÖÛúÖ¸üß ®Öê, ˆÃÖ

´Ö×Æü»ÖÖ Ûêú ®ÖêŸÖéŸ¾Ö ´Öë •ÖÖê ÃÖ¸üÛúÖ¸ü £Öß, ˆÃÖ ÃÖ´ÖµÖ ×ÛúµÖÖ †Öî¸ü †¤üÖ»ÖŸÖ ®Öê ˆ®ÖÛúÖê ²Ö¸üß Ûú¸ü ×¤üµÖÖ…

†²Ö ˆ®ÖÛúÖê •ÖÖê ¯Öß›ÍüÖ Æãü‡Ô, ˆ®Ö ¯Ö¸ü •ÖÖê ¯ÖÖê™üÖ ÛúÖ ÃÖÖê™üÖ “Ö»ÖÖ, ˆÃÖÛúÖ ŒµÖÖ ÆÖêÝÖÖ? ´ÖãôÖê µÖÖ¤ü Æî,

•Ö²Ö ÃÖÓµÖãŒŸÖ †×¬Ö¾Öê¿Ö®Ö “Ö»Ö ¸üÆüÖ £ÖÖ, ŸÖÖê ˆÃÖ ÃÖÓµÖãŒŸÖ †×¬Ö¾Öê¿Ö®Ö ´Öë ¾ÖÖ‡ÛúÖê ÃÖÖÆü²Ö ®Öê ³Öß ¯ÖÖê™üÖ

Ûêú ¯ÖõÖ ´Öë ´ÖŸÖ¤üÖ®Ö ×¤üµÖÖ £ÖÖ †Öî¸ü ²ÖÖ¤ü ´Öë, ´Öî¡ÖêµÖ®Ö ÃÖÖÆü²Ö ÃÖê ´Öï ²ÖÆãüŸÖ ×¾Ö®Ö´ÖÏŸÖÖ ÃÖê †•ÖÔ Ûú¸ü®ÖÖ

“ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÑü, ŒµÖÖë×Ûú †²Ö ¾ÖÖ‡ÛúÖê ÃÖÖÆü²Ö ´Öî¡ÖêµÖ®Ö ÃÖÖÆü²Ö Ûêú ÃÖÖ£Öß Æïü, ¾ÖÖ‡ÛúÖê ÃÖÖÆü²Ö ³Öß ˆÃÖß ¯ÖÖê™üÖ

Ûêú †Ó¤ü¸ü ²ÖÓ¤üß ÆüÖê ÝÖ‹… ‡ÃÖ ‘Ö¸ü ÛúÖê †ÖÝÖ »ÖÝÖ ÝÖ‡Ô ‘Ö¸ü Ûêú ×“Ö¸üÖÝÖ ÃÖê… ¯ÖÖê™üÖ ²Ö®ÖÖµÖÖ †Öî¸ü ¯ÖÖê™üÖ

Ûêú ×¿ÖÛúÖ¸ü ÆüÖê ÝÖ‹… ¯ÖÖê™üÖ ÛúÖ ÃÖÖê™üÖ ˆ®Ö ¯Ö¸ü ³Öß “Ö»Ö ÝÖµÖÖ… ŸÖÖê ¯ÖÖê™üÖ ÛúÖ ÃÖÖê™üÖ ×ÃÖ±Ôú ‹Ûú

×¾Ö¿ÖêÂÖ ÃÖ´Öã¤üÖµÖ ¯Ö¸ü ®ÖÆüà “Ö»ÖÖ Æîü, ¯ÖÖê™üÖ ÛúÖ ÃÖÖê™üÖ ¸üÖ•Ö®Öî×ŸÖÛú ×¾Ö¸üÖê×¬ÖµÖÖë ¯Ö¸ü ³Öß “Ö»ÖÖ Æîü…

..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)

DR. V. MAITREYAN: Now that he has raised this subject, I will have to

answer. He says that it is a misuse. (Interruptions) I say it is not a

misuse. (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Dr. Maitreyan, please sit down.

(Interruptions) No, nobody has a right to interrupt like this.

(Interruptions)

DR. V. MAITREYAN: But, Sir, he cannot quote wrongly. (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please sit down. Our rules do not permit

to intervene like this when a Member is speaking. (Interruptions)

DR. V. MAITREYAN: But he cannot mislead the House. (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: It is not for you to...(Interruptions)

DR. V. MAITREYAN: But I have to defend my party. You cannot

defend my party. (Interruptions)


247

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Then, you must first seek permission from

the Chair. (Interruptions) It is not like that you just stand up and start

speaking whatever you want to. (Interruptions)

DR. V. MAITREYAN: I have the liberty. (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please don't assume that you are at liberty.

(Interruptions) You must first seek permission from the Chair.

(Interruptions)

ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü : ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ •Öß, ´Öï Ûú³Öß-Ûú³Öß ²ÖÖê»ÖŸÖÖ ÆæÑü, ŸÖÖê ÛúÖê»ÖÖÆü»Ö ÆüÖê •ÖÖŸÖÖ Æîü… µÖÆü

´Öî¡ÖÓêµÖ®Ö ÃÖÖÆü²Ö ŸÖÖê ´Öê¸êü ¤üÖêÃŸÖ Æïü…

ÁÖß ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ : ®ÖÖ´Ö Æüß ´Öî¡ÖêµÖ®Ö Æîü…

4‹±ú/›üß‹ÃÖ ¯Ö¸ü †ÖÝÖê

4F/5.25/DS-VP ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü (ÛÎú´ÖÖÝÖŸÖ): ‹êÃÖÖ ®ÖÆüà ×Ûú ŸÖã´ÖÃÖê ´ÖãÆü²²ÖŸÖ ®ÖÆüà ¸üÆüß, •Ö•²ÖÖŸÖ ´Öë ¯ÖÆü»Öê-ÃÖß ×¿Ö§üŸÖ

®ÖÆüà ¸üÆüß… ‹êÃÖß ÛúÖê‡Ô ²ÖÖŸÖ ®ÖÆüà Æîü ×Ûú †Ö¯ÖÃÖê ´ÖãÆü²²ÖŸÖ ®ÖÆüà Æîü, »Öê×Ûú®Ö ‡ÃÖ ´ÖãÆü²²ÖŸÖ ´Öë ¾ÖÆü

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ÃÖÖÆü²Ö ¯ÖÖò×»Ö×™üÛú»Ö †Ö¤ü´Öß Æïü, ÆüÖê ÃÖÛúŸÖÖ Æîü †Ö¯Ö®Öê †“”ûÖ µÖæ•Ö ×ÛúµÖÖ… †Ö¯Ö •Ö²Ö ÛúÆü ¸üÆêü Æïü--

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†Ö•Ö Æü´ÖÖ¸êü ÃÖ´Ö£ÖÔÛú Æïü, Ûú»Ö ŸÖÛú ¾ÖÆü ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖßµÖ •Ö®ÖŸÖÖ ¯ÖÖ™üá Ûêú ¸üÖÂ™ÒüßµÖ †¬µÖõÖ Ûêú ¯ÖÏÖê™üß•Ö £Öê,

¾ÖÆü ³Öß ²ÖÓ¤ü Æãü‹… ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ ¯ÖÖê™üÖ ÛúÖ ×´ÖÃÖµÖæ•Ö Æãü†Ö, ˆÃÖ´Öë ´Öï µÖÆü ÃÖÓ¤üÙ³ÖŸÖ Ûú¸ü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÑü

×Ûú ‡ÃÖ´Öë •ÖÖê ‹Ûú Œ»ÖÖˆ•ÖÌ Æîü "Notwithstanding anything contained in the Code,

no person accused of an offence punishable under chapters IV and VI of

this Act shall, if in custody, be released on bail or on his own bond

unless the Public Prosecutor has been given an opportunity of being

heard on the application for such release:" µÖÆü 437 Æîü, "Provided that


248

such accused person shall not be released on bail or on his own bond if

the Court, on a perusal of the case diary or the report made under

section 173 of the Code is of the opinion that there are reasonable

grounds for believing that the accusation against such a person is prima

facie true." †²Ö ‡ÃÖÛêú †Ó¤ü¸ü ‹Ûú ×¾Ö¸üÖê¬ÖÖ³ÖÖÃÖ Æîü ´ÖÖ®µÖ¾Ö¸ü… ×¾Ö¸üÖê¬ÖÖ³ÖÖÃÖ µÖÆü Æîü ×Ûú ¯Öê•Ö 6

¯Ö¸ü ‡ÃÖ´Öë ×»ÖÜÖÖ Æîü ×Ûú "The failure to furnish the information called for under

sub-section 1, or, deliberately furnishing false information shall be

punishable with imprisonment for a term which may extend to three

years or with fine or with both." "Notwithstanding anything contained in

the Code, an offence under sub-section 2 shall be tried as a summary

case and the procedure prescribed in Chapter XXI of the said Code

(except sub-section 2 of section 262) shall be applicable thereto."ŸÖß®Ö ÃÖÖ»Ö

ÛúÖ †Ö±ëúÃÖ Æîü… 30 ÃÖÖ»Ö ÛúÖ ÆüÖê µÖÖ ˆ´ÖÏ Ûîú¤ü ÛúÖ ÆüÖê, ˆÃÖÛêú ×»Ö‹ ¯Ö×®Ö¿Ö´Öë™ü ‹Ûú-ÃÖÖ Æîü…

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249

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..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö).. The people you have talked about ... ...(Interruptions)...

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251

ÁÖß ‹ÃÖ0‹ÃÖ0 †Æü»Öã¾ÖÖ×»ÖµÖÖ : ´Öï ÃÖÖ¸üß ¤ãü×®ÖµÖÖ Ûêú “Öî®Ö»ÃÖ ¤êüÜÖŸÖÖ ÆæÓü, ¾ÖÆü ´Öê¸üÖ ¸üÖ‡™ü Æîü…

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diluting the debate. We are diluting the debate. ...(Interruptions)... ×´ÖÃ™ü¸ü

†Æü»Öã¾ÖÖ×»ÖµÖÖ, †²Ö †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü •Öß ²ÖÖê»Ö ¸üÆêü Æïü, now, it is his point of view; he is

placing it. Allow him to place his point of view.

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Sir, again and again, he is blaming the BJP.


MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You blame him and he blames you.

...(Interruptions)... How can I conduct the Business of the House?

...(Interruptions)... Why are you getting angry? ...(Interruptions)... What is

this? ...(Interruptions)... Mr. Ahluwalia, if he blames the BJP, what is it

that I can do? You have to take it and if you blame him, he has to take it.


SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: Sir, our appeal is, you please conduct this

debate in the orderly fashion.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No; no; Members have to cooperate. If we

use the Rules of Procedure, the Members protest. When we use it,

they would protest. When we don't want to use that and appeal to the

Members, they don't cooperate.

SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: But, Sir, the procedure is very clear. If

you have given the permission to somebody to speak, ...


MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Every Member knows about it, but still they

do it.


252

SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: No; unless Mr. Amar Singh yields, nobody

else can intervene.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: That is not going on record. But still they

disturb it.

SHRI S.S AHLUWALIA: You tell him to speak on the subject. There are

two Bills. ...(Interruptions)... You speak on the subject. You are a law-

maker. ...(Interruptions)...You are a law-maker. ...(Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Ahluwalia, please sit down.


SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: When I spoke, I spoke on the two Bills.


SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: You spoke on the Bills. He should also speak

on the Bills. Why is he not speaking on the Sections of these Bills?

...(Interruptions)... Let him speak on that. ...(Interruptions)...

(Followed by 4h/MKS)

-AKA/VNK-MKS/4h/5.35

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Ahluwalia, you should speak on the Bill.

...(Interruptions)... Why are you addressing it to him? ...(Interruptions)...

ÁÖß ‹ÃÖ. ‹ÃÖ. †Æü»Öã¾ÖÖ×»ÖµÖÖ : ÃÖ¸ü, ´Öê¸üÖ ‹Ûú submission ÃÖã®Ö »Öß×•Ö‹, µÖÆü ²ÖÖŸÖ ´Öï ¯ÖÆü»Öê ÃÖê

³Öß ÛúÆü ¸üÆüÖ ÆæÑü, ×•ÖÃÖ ×¤ü®Ö ‡ÃÖÛúß “Ö“ÖÖÔ Æãü‡Ô £Öß ×Ûú ‡ÃÖ ¯Ö¸ü discussion ÆüÖêÝÖß, ŸÖ²Ö ´Öï®Öê

ÛúÆüÖ £ÖÖ ×Ûú ³ÖÖ‡Ô Æü´Ö “Ö“ÖÖÔ Ûú¸ü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖê Æïü, we are law maker, we have to make

a fruitful law. ˆÃÖê ¯ÖÖÃÖ Ûú¸ü®Öê Ûêú ×»Ö‹ Æü´Ö legislation ¯Ö¸ü discuss Ûú¸ëüÝÖê… ×ÛúÃÖß ®Öê

ÛúÆüÖ ×Ûú ÃÖÖÆü²Ö, ÃÖÓÃÖ¤ü ¯Ö¸ü Æü´Ö»ÖÖ Æãü†Ö £ÖÖ ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö).., ‹êÃÖÖ ŒµÖÖë ×ÛúµÖÖ… ´Öï®Öê ÛúÆüÖ ×Ûú

¤êü×ÜÖ‹, †ÝÖ¸ü ÃÖÓÃÖ¤ü Ûúß ŸÖ¸ü±ú •ÖÖ‹ÓÝÖê..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..…

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: µÖÆü ŒµÖÖ ²ÖÖŸÖ Æîü ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..… No, no; this is not

allowed. Nothing will go on record. ...(Interruptions)...


253

ÁÖß ‹ÃÖ. ‹ÃÖ. †Æü»Öã¾ÖÖ×»ÖµÖÖ : *



SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: *

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No, no; this also will not go on record.

...(Interruptions)... Nothing will go on record. ...(Interruptions)...

†Æü»Öã¾ÖÖ×»ÖµÖÖ •Öß, †Ö¯Ö ²Öî×šü‹ ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..…

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: What is this, Sir? ...(Interruptions)...



SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: What is this, Sir? ...(Interruptions)...



SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: *

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: *

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I am sorry......(Interruptions)... I am sorry

that the Members are taking.......(Interruptions)... µÖÆü ŒµÖÖ ÆüÖê ¸üÆüÖ Æîü

..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..…

ÁÖß ‹ÃÖ.‹ÃÖ. †Æü»Öã¾ÖÖ×»ÖµÖÖ : ÃÖ¸ü, ´ÖÖ®Ö®ÖßµÖ ÃÖ¤üÃµÖ ×²Ö»Ö ¯Ö¸ü ²ÖÖê»Öê ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..…

ÁÖß ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ : ŒµÖÖ ²ÖÖê»Ö®ÖÖ Æîü, µÖÆü ´Öï ³Öß ®ÖÆüà ²ÖÖê»Ö ÃÖÛúŸÖÖ ÆæÑü, †Ö¯Ö rules ²ÖŸÖÖ‡‹

..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..… I will definitely apply the rules. ....(Interruptions)...

ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü : ´Öï ×²Ö»Ö ¯Ö¸ü Æüß ²ÖÖê»Ö ¸üÆüÖ ÆæÑü ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..…

ÁÖß ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ : †Ö¯Ö ²Öî×šü‹ ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..… †ÝÖ¸ü ÛúÖê‡Ô ¯ÖÖê™üÖ Ûêú ‰ú¯Ö¸ü ²ÖÖê»ÖŸÖÖ Æîü †Öî¸ü ¾ÖÆü

¯ÖÖê™üÖ ÛúÖ experience ²ÖŸÖÖŸÖÖ Æîü, ŸÖÖê †Ö¯Ö ÛúÆüŸÖê Æïü ×Ûú µÖÆü ®ÖÆüà ²ÖÖê»Ö®ÖÖ Æîü, µÖÆü ŒµÖÖ ²ÖÖŸÖ Æîü

__________________________________________________________

* Not recorded.


254

..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..… Everybody has a right to speak.......(Interruptions)... †Ö¯Ö ²Öî×šü‹

..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..… Don't defend him. .......(Interruptions)...

ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü : ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ÁÖß ‹ÃÖ.‹ÃÖ. †Æü»Öã¾ÖÖ×»ÖµÖÖ •Öß ´Öê¸êü ¤üÖêÃŸÖ Æïü, ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ ´Öï yield Ûú¸ü

ÝÖµÖÖ †Öî¸ü †ÝÖ¸ü ´ÖãôÖê ¯ÖŸÖÖ “Ö»ÖŸÖÖ ×Ûú µÖê ¤üÖêÃŸÖß ×®Ö³ÖÖ‹ÓÝÖê, ŸÖÖê ´Öï yield ®ÖÆüà Ûú¸üŸÖÖ… ¤æüÃÖ¸üß ²ÖÖŸÖ

´Öï µÖÆü ²ÖŸÖÖ®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÑü ×Ûú †²Ö ´Öï ÁÖß †¹ýÞÖ •Öê™ü»Öß •Öß ÛúÖê Ûú³Öß embarrass ®ÖÆüà Ûú¹ÓýÝÖÖ

..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..…

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: In this, everybody takes time.

...(Interruptions)... And they are encroaching upon others' time.

ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü : ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ÃÖ´ÖµÖ ®ÖÆüà Æîü, ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ ´Öï †¯Ö®Öß ²ÖÖŸÖ •Ö»¤üß Æüß ÃÖ´ÖÖ¯ŸÖ Ûú¸ü ¸üÆüÖ ÆæÑü…

´Öï µÖÆü ÛúÆü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæüÑ ×Ûú ´Öï®Öê ÁÖß †®ŸÖã»Öê •Öß Ûêú ²ÖµÖÖ®Ö ÛúÖ ÃÖ´Ö£ÖÔ®Ö ®ÖÆüà ×ÛúµÖÖ †Öî¸ü ®Ö Æüß

ÁÖß ¸üÖ´Ö •Öêšü´Ö»ÖÖ®Öß •Öß Ûúß ŸÖ¸üÆü ¯ÖÖ×ÛúÃŸÖÖ®Ö ™üß.¾Öß. ÛúÖê, •ÖîÃÖÖ ¾Öê ÛúÆü ¸üÆêü Æïü, ÛúÖê‡Ô ²ÖµÖÖ®Ö

×¤üµÖÖ Æîü… ´Öï ×ÃÖ±Ôú ‡ŸÖ®ÖÖ Æüß ÛúÆü ¸üÆüÖ ÆæÑü ×Ûú ¿ÖÆüß¤ü Ûúß ¿ÖÆüÖ¤üŸÖ ÃÖ¤üÖ Ã£ÖÖ‡Ô ÆüÖêŸÖß Æîü…

‹Ûú ×¤ü®Ö ²ÖÖ¤ü ×•ÖÃÖ ¿ÖÆüß¤ü Ûúß ¿ÖÆüÖ¤üŸÖ Ûêú ×»Ö‹ ÛúÖê‡Ô ²Ö›ÍüÖ ®ÖêŸÖÖ ‹Ûú Ûú¸üÖê›Íü ¹ý¯Ö‹ ÛúÖ ¯Öã¸üÃÛúÖ¸ü

¤êüŸÖÖ Æîü, ˆÃÖß ¿ÖÆüß¤ü Ûêú ²ÖÖ¸êü ´Öë ˆÃÖÛêú •Öß¾Ö®Ö ÛúÖ»Ö ´Öë ´ÖÆüÖ¸üÖÂ™Òü ²ÖÓ¤ü ÛúÖ ®ÖÖ¸üÖ ¤êüŸÖÖ Æîü, ´Öï µÖÆüß

×²Ö®¤ãü ÛúÆü ¸üÆüÖ £ÖÖ… ‡ÃÖ ÝÖÓ³Öß¸ü ´ÖÃÖ»Öê Ûúß “Ö“ÖÖÔ Ûúß ºþ¯Ö¸êüÜÖÖ ÛúÖ ×®Ö¬ÖÖÔ¸üÞÖ ÁÖß †¹ýÞÖ •Öê™ü»Öß •Öß

®Öê ×ÛúµÖÖ Æîü… ÁÖß †¹ýÞÖ •Öê™ü»Öß •Öß ®Öê †¯Ö®Öê ²ÖÆãüŸÖ ÃÖÖ¸üÝÖÙ³ÖŸÖ ¾µÖÖÜµÖÖ®Ö ´Öë ‡ÃÖ ×²Ö»Ö ÛúÖ ÃÖ´Ö£ÖÔ®Ö

Ûú¸ü®Öê Ûêú ÃÖÖ£Ö-ÃÖÖ£Ö ‡ÃÖ ²ÖÖŸÖ Ûúß ³Öß Ø“ÖŸÖÖ ×¤üÜÖÖ‡Ô †Öî¸ü ‡ÃÖ ²ÖÖŸÖ Ûúß ¾µÖÝÖÏŸÖÖ ×¤üÜÖÖ‡Ô ×Ûú

‡ÃÖÛúÖ ÁÖêµÖ ³ÖÖ¸üŸÖßµÖ •Ö®ÖŸÖÖ ¯ÖÖ™üá †Öî¸ü ‹®Ö›üß‹ ÛúÖê ×´Ö»Öê †Öî¸ü µÖæ¯Öß‹ discredit ÆüÖê…

´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ´Öï †Ö¯ÖÛúÖê ²ÖŸÖÖ®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÑü ×Ûú ´ÖîÓ ÃÖÖœÍêü “ÖÖ¸ü ÃÖÖ»Ö ŸÖÛú ²Ö›Íüß ²Öã¸üß ŸÖ¸üÆü ÃÖê

µÖæ¯Öß‹ ÃÖê »Ö›ÍüŸÖÖ ¸üÆüÖ ÆæÑü, ˆ®ÖÃÖê Æü´ÖÖ¸üß ÛúÖê‡Ô ×´Ö¡ÖŸÖÖ ®ÖÆüà ¸üÆüß †Öî¸ü †Ö•Ö Æü´ÖÖ¸êü ‰ú¯Ö¸ü ÜÖ›Íêü

ÆüÖêÛú¸ü ÁÖß †®ŸÖã»Öê ÃÖÖÆü²Ö Ûêú ²ÖµÖÖ®Ö Ûêú ÃÖÖ£Ö ´Öê¸üÖ ²ÖµÖÖ®Ö •ÖÖê›Íü ×¤üµÖÖ ÝÖµÖÖ, •Ö²Ö ×Ûú ´Öï®Öê ‹êÃÖÖ

Ûãú”û ³Öß ®ÖÆüà ÛúÆüÖ Æîü †Öî¸ü ®Ö †²Ö ÛúÆü ¸üÆüÖ ÆæÑü, ²Ö×»Ûú ´Öï®Öê Ûú»Ö ÝÖéÆü ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß «üÖ¸üÖ ×¤ü‹ ÝÖ‹

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£ÖÖ, ˆÃÖ´Öë †Ö¯ÖÛêú ´ÖÖ¬µÖ´Ö ÃÖê ´Öï®Öê ‡ÃÖ ´ÖÓ“Ö ÛúÖê †¯Ö®Öê Ã¯ÖÂ™üßÛú¸üÞÖ Ûêú ×»Ö‹ ‡ÃŸÖê´ÖÖ»Ö ×ÛúµÖÖ Æîü,

ŒµÖÖë×Ûú ÝÖéÆü ´ÖÓ¡Öß •Öß ÛúÖ µÖÆü ²ÖµÖÖ®Ö £ÖÖ ×Ûú ¯Öã×»ÖÃÖ ±úÖêÃÖÔ ÛúÖê demoralise ´ÖŸÖ Ûúß×•Ö‹…

Æü´ÖÖ¸üÖ ³Öß †¹ýÞÖ •Öê™ü»Öß •Öß ÃÖê †ÖÝÖÏÆü Æîü, ¯µÖÖ¸êü ¤üÖêÃŸÖ †Æü»Öã¾ÖÖ×»ÖµÖÖ •Öß ÃÖê ³Öß †ÖÝÖÏÆü Æîü ×Ûú


255

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ÆüÖê ÝÖµÖÖ †Öî¸ü †Ö¯Ö®Öê ´ÖÆüÖ¸üÖÂ™Òü ²ÖÓ¤ü ÛúÖ †ÖÅ¾ÖÖ®Ö Ûú¸ü ×¤üµÖÖ… ¤üÖê ×¤ü®Ö ²ÖÖ¤ü ¯ÖŸÖÖ “Ö»ÖÖ ×Ûú †Ö¯ÖÛêú

Æüß ®ÖêŸÖÖ ‹Ûú Ûú¸üÖê›Íü ¹ý¯Ö‹ ¤êü®Öê ¯ÖÆãÓü“Ö ÝÖ‹… ˆÃÖß ŸÖ¸üÆü ÃÖê ÆüÖê ÃÖÛúŸÖÖ Æîü ×Ûú Æü´ÖÖ¸üÖ ³Öß ´Öæ»µÖÖÓÛú®Ö

ÁÖß ‹´Ö.ÃÖß. ¿Ö´ÖÖÔ Ûêú ×»Ö‹ ÝÖ»ÖŸÖ ÆüÖê ÝÖµÖÖ ÆüÖê ..(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)..…

´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ´Öï ÛúÆü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÑü ×Ûú "¾ÖÖê •ÖÜ´Ö ´ÖãôÖê µÖÖ¤ü †Ö®Öê »ÖÝÖê Æïü, ×•Ö®Æëü Æü´Öë ³Öã»ÖÖ®Öê

´Öë •Ö´ÖÖ®Öê »ÖÝÖê Æïü", ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ †Ö¯Ö ÃµÖÖ»ÖÛúÖê™ü ÛúÖê µÖÖ¤ü ´ÖŸÖ Ûúß×•Ö‹, †²Ö †Ö¯Ö ×Æü®¤ãüÃŸÖÖ®Ö ÛúÖê

µÖÖ¤ü Ûúß×•Ö‹ †Öî¸ü ×Æü®¤ãüÃŸÖÖ®Ö Ûúß ×Æü®¤ãüÃŸÖÖ®ÖßµÖŸÖ ÛúÖê µÖÖ¤ü Ûúß×•Ö‹… •Ö²Ö Æü´Ö ¸üÖ•Ö®Öß×ŸÖ Ûúß ²ÖÖŸÖ

Ûú¸ü ¸üÆêü Æïü, ŸÖÖê •Ö²Ö ÁÖß Ûú×¯Ö»Ö ×ÃÖ²²Ö»Ö †Öî¸ü ÛúÖÓÝÖÏêÃÖ Ûêú ŸÖ´ÖÖ´Ö ®ÖêŸÖÖ†Öë ®Öê judicial probe Ûúß

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ÁÖß´ÖŸÖß ÃÖÖê×®ÖµÖÖ ÝÖÖÓ¬Öß Ûêú ‰ú¯Ö¸ü ¤ü²ÖÖ¾Ö †ÖµÖÖ, ¯ÖÏ¬ÖÖ®Ö ´ÖÓ¡Öß ›üÖ. ´Ö®Ö´ÖÖêÆü®Ö ØÃÖÆü Ûêú ‰ú¯Ö¸ü ¤ü²ÖÖ¾Ö

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Æü´Ö †¯Ö®Öß ¯Öã×»ÖÃÖ ±úÖêÃÖÔ ÛúÖê demoralise ®ÖÆüà ÆüÖê®Öê ¤ëüÝÖê, ×•Ö®ÆüÖë®Öê µÖÆü ÛúÖ´Ö ×ÛúµÖÖ Æîü, Æü´Ö

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move ÆüÖêŸÖÖ… (4i/MP ¯Ö¸ü •ÖÖ¸üß)

MP/4J/5.40 ÁÖß †´Ö¸ü ØÃÖÆü (ÛÎú´ÖÖÝÖŸÖ) : ŸÖÖê †ÝÖ¸ü µÖæ.¯Öß.‹. Ûúß ÃÖ¸üÛúÖ¸ü, ÛúÖÓÝÖÏêÃÖ Ûúß ÃÖ¸üÛúÖ¸ü †ÝÖ¸ü ¯ÖÖò¯Öã×»ÖÃ™ü

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‡Ó¬Ö®Ö •Ö»ÖÖÛú¸ü, ¯Öæ¸üß Ûúß ¯Öæ¸üß ¸üÖ•Ö®Öß×ŸÖ †Öî¸ü ×¾ÖóÖÖ¯Ö®Ö ... •Ö²Ö †Öò¯Ö¸êü¿Ö®Ö ¯Öæ¸üÖ ®ÖÆüà Æãü†Ö £ÖÖ,

•Ö²Ö †Öò¯Ö¸êü¿Ö®Ö “Ö»Ö ¸üÆüÖ £ÖÖ, ŸÖÖê †Öò¯Ö¸êü¿Ö®Ö Ûêú “Ö»ÖŸÖê Æãü‹, ÝÖÖê×»ÖµÖÖë Ûúß ŸÖ›ÍüŸÖ›ÍüÖÆü™ü Ûêú ²Öß“Ö

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¤ãü¿´Ö®ÖÖë ÃÖê ¯Ö¿Öê´ÖÖ®Ö ÆüÖê®ÖÖ ¯Ö›ÍüÖ,


256

¤üÖêÃŸÖÖë ÛúÖ ÜÖã»ÖæÃÖ †Ö•Ö´ÖÖ®Öê Ûêú ²ÖÖ¤ü…"

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257

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258

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×®Ö¯Ö™ü®Öê ÛúÖ ‹Ûú´ÖÖ¡Ö ´Öã×ÜÖµÖÖ †Öî¸ü ÃÖæ¡Ö¬ÖÖ¸ü †Ö¯Ö ´ÖÖ®Ö »Öß×•Ö‹… †ÝÖ¸ü ‡ÃÖÃÖê †ÖŸÖÓÛú¾ÖÖ¤ü ¹ýÛúŸÖÖ

Æîü ŸÖÖê ¾ÖÆü ¹ýÛú®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹… ¬Ö®µÖ¾ÖÖ¤ü…

(ÃÖ´ÖÖ¯ŸÖ)

THE MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY AND MINISTER OF

EARTH SCIENCES (SHRI KAPIL SIBAL): Sir, the hon. Member, Shri

Amar Singh, has mentioned my name in respect of a particular incident

in the Batala House. He said that I had made a public statement. I just

want to put the record straight that I went there; I saw what had

happened; reported it back to my leaders. But I never made any

statement in the Press at any point of time since then. Anything


259

attributed to me in respect of any statement that I made is completely

wrong because I have never made such a statement.

SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: Sir, the amendments that we have

submitted have not been circulated. Let these amendments be

circulated.

ÁÖß ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ : ÃÖ¸üÛãú»Öê™ü ÆüÖê ÝÖµÖÖ Æîü…

ÁÖß ÃÖßŸÖÖ¸üÖ´Ö µÖê“Öã¸üß : µÖÆüÖÓ ¯Ö¸ ÛúÆüà ®ÖÆüà †ÖµÖÖ…

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260

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(ÃÖ´ÖÖ¯ŸÖ)

THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE DEPARTMENT OF INDUSTRIAL

POLICY AND PROMOTION, MINISTRY OF COMMERCE AND

INDUSTRY (SHRI ASHWANI KUMAR): Mr, Deputy Chairman, Sir, thank

you for giving me this opportunity to intervene in this debate which, I

believe, is critical for more reasons than one. Sir, I am mindful of the

fact that this debate is taking place in the wake of unprecedented

onslaught on the integrity of the Indian State. This debate is taking

place in view of the national resolve to present a united country in our

fight against terror. It is for this reason that I would seek to make my

comments in a manner that unites this House, to take on the challenge

of terror, rather than to indulge in any divisive polemics. We are not

here today to make points against each another, nor is the people's

court a court of law where the debate should regress or recede into

legalese. This is a debate which the nation is watching, watching us

deliver on the promise of a unified resolve against the terrorist onslaught

on the conscience of this country.


262

With this caveat, I rise not only to support the Bill but also to

thank the entire Opposition for supporting the measure in principle. I

know that there are large areas of agony, both as to the content of the

Bill as well as the intention behind it. Here, I would say, Sir, the glory of

this nation, as a united country, had been brought forth in this debate in

the Lok Sabha, and I would hasten to add that we expect the same

unity of purpose in the Upper House. I never knew in 1977, when I

wrote my doctoral dissertation on 'Legal Control of International

Terrorism" that some day as lawmaker in this House, I would need to

take part in this debate.

(Continued by 4M)

TDB/4M/5.55

SHRI ASHWANI KUMAR (CONTD.): But, I am indeed fortunate to be

able to include in my comments some of the lessons that I learnt at that

time, in my study of terrorism, as a student, and some of the lessons

that I learnt, as a public man coming from Punjab, which had witnessed

terrorism for long years. Sir, my first lesson that I learnt as a student in

the study of terrorism was that the terrorist is outside the system of law.

He is outside the system or establishment that he seeks to demolish

through acts of terror, and, therefore, he owes no apology to any law.

No law in the world can prevent terrorism. This legislation that has been

brought before us, Sir, the two Bills, are punitive in nature, they are not

preventive in nature. The sole purpose of these two Bills is to ensure

that after the terrorist act is committed, a resolute nation with a devoted

investigative and prosecutorial agency will bring to justice those who

have perpetrated crimes against mankind.


263

The second lesson, Sir, that I learnt as a public man from Punjab

was that oppressive laws or stringent laws which are oppressively

implemented can never eliminate terrorism. They only give rise to

terrorism. Mr. Jaitley, in his comments stated that some amount of

alienation of the local populace is inevitable, when you apply strong

laws. I dispute that contention. The moment you start from the premise

that you are permitted to alienate a populace or a section of people in

your quest to apply stringent laws, howsoever unfairly, you lose the

battle against terrorism.

(THE VICE-CHAIRMAN, PROF. P.J. KURIEN, IN THE CHAIR)

Terrorism has always been a function of perception that injustice has

been caused or that justice is not being rendered. And, as long as that

perception holds the field, as long as a significant number of people feel

that terrorism is sought to be fought through State terrorism, we will

only lose the battle against terror, and it is for this reason, Mr. Vice-

Chairman, Sir, that our version of the Bill takes care of the Constitutional

conscience of the country, it takes care of the sensivities of the

Republic, as far as human rights are concerned, as far as our

irrevocable commitment to protecting the dignity and rights of innocent

citizens is concerned, that we have introduced in the Bills some

provisions that will ensure that certain stringent provisions which are

necessary in view of the fact that we are seeking to remedy an

extraordinary mischief, that is a war against the nation, are not abused

or indeed the abuse is minimised.

Sir, there is a third lesson that I learnt and that is a lesson I learnt

as a lawyer that the fact that a particular provision of the law can be


264

abused or misused can never be an argument to deny its utility or

necessity. There is yet to be a law, civil or criminal, which has not been

abused or misused sometime or the other. No amount of human

ingenuity can anticipate all situations that the law seeks to address. It is

a trite saying in law which we often use that life is larger than law. At

the end of the day, no law can ever be a guarantee of total peace, of

total fairness, of total justice. As somebody has said, 'aspiration of a

perfect law is seeking a legal utopia, which is an impossibility'.

Therefore, what is it that we must aim, Sir? And it is on that touchstone

that I would commend this House to measure the utility or the

constitutionality or the legality or the purposiveness of these two Bills.

The law must be certain; it must not be ambiguous; it should not be

retroactive and it should not shift the presumption of innocence from the

accused.

(Contd. by 4n-kgg)

kgg/4n/6.00

SHRI ASHWANI KUMAR (Contd.): These are the four pillars of criminal

jurisprudence in this country which have been hallowed and sanctified

over as many years as I can recall. On all these four basic grounds,

both the Bills, in my respectful submission satisfy the test of

reasonableness, of fairness, of constitutionality and of effectiveness. For

any law to serve its purpose, it need not be oppressive, but it must be

effective. That is why we say, give teeth to the law; that is why we say,

bring in meaningful legislation in view of the end purposes that the law

seeks to serve, or that we want the law to sub-serve.


265

What is the end purpose that we want our law to sub-serve? The

end purpose is, terrorism, sponsored from across the border, acts of

international terrorism that are creeping into our borders need to be

fought, need to be checked and once they are committed, unfortunately

---God forbid--if they are committed, the perpetrators of those acts have

to be brought to justice; justice not by the lamp-post, justice according

to law; because, rule of the law is what distinguishes a civilised nation, a

civilised society, a civilised people from those we seek to fight.

Sir, it is very easy to fall into the prey, as was suggested by my

friend on the other side, that a confessional statement to a police officer

should be used. We all know how these statements are recorded; we all

know that nine out of ten times, or at least eight out of ten times, it is

the innocent people against whom these terrorists are used. So, let us

not go in for or plead for a knee-jerk reaction. It is time for reflection, it

is time for deliberation, it is time for resolve, it is time for sensitivity, and

it is time for a united nation to speak in one voice. It is true that the

people of this country are watching this on the television and will read

tomorrow in the press. They will pass harsh judgment on us, Sir, if we

fail to deliver now. If we fail to pass the muster at least on the issue of

terror, this nation will not forgive us. The biggest glory of this country is

that the representatives of the people, who adorn the chairs in this

House, who are the pride of this nation, are expected to show unity---

and I am sure, I am proud that so far they have shown a united

determination in fighting terror. There could be a difference in

perspective, there could be a difference in emphasis. It is only to be

expected.


266

Some of the points made by my colleagues on the other side are

well taken. I for one have always felt that it is better to read into the law

certain safeguards than to invent them later on. But, having said that,

Sir, as a lawyer I can tell you, it is also true that every Bill that we pass,

every legislation that is put on the Statute Book, is nothing more than

the skeleton of the law. This skeleton is eventually clothed and roped by

adjudication by courts. And, the courts make sure that constitutional

safeguards, principles of natural justice that ensures substantive justice,

the procedural due process requirements, are in fact read into the law

we make. There is, ultimately, a power of judicial review with the

superior courts. Even this law can be struck down if it fails to pass the

test of judicial scrutiny. So, I would hasten to add, Sir, that all legislative

provisions that we have made, and I would refer to only two or three

which are intended to make the law effective, are provisions of 43(a),

which talk about power of arrest and detention in the Unlawful Activities

Prevention Act, 43(d) that talk of stringent bail provisions, 43(e) that talk

of presumption of guilt. I would like to make a point here, Sir. It is a

cardinal rule of jurisprudence that a person is presumed to be innocent

until proved to be guilty. I do not think that that has been reversed. All it

says is that if a person is found with a weapon of destruction in his

possession, the onus would shift temporarily, for that limited purpose,

upon him to prove that that cannot lead to an inference of guilt against

him. In criminal jurisprudence, the onus of proving the guilt of the

accused is invariably, and always, on the prosecution. That principle has

not been negatived in this Bill.

(Contd. by kls/4o)


267

Kls/40-6.05

SHRI ASHWANI KUMAR (CONTD): So, I would like to add that there is

no reason for apprehension on that score. It is a case of like stolen

goods, if stolen goods are found in somebody's possession, it is for him

to prove or establish how these goods came into his or her possession

in the first place. Therefore, Sir, this law does nothing more than that

and does not, I repeat, does not tinker with the cardinal rule of

jurisprudence which is an elementary rule and rightly so placed since

Macalay's time. Sir, the second point that was made was about bail

provisions. Now, we had made the provisions stricter. We have said

you will not get bail until the Public Prosecutor is put on notice because

sometimes through misrepresentation or half-baked representation you

can get the adjudicatory authority to release you on bail and when it

comes to apprehending a terrorist, you have to have double caution, you

cannot let a terrorist go on a legal nicety only to go and commit another

terrorist strike. So, on all force I hasten to submit this law passes the

test of constitutionality. Sir, I would like to make two more points and

then I am done. Sir, as far as the integral and internal morality of this

law is concerned, nobody has any doubt, not in this House, not in the

Lok Sabha and not in the country. We all know that we require an

action in response not only to Mumbai but an action in response to

international terrorism, which has now been identified as one of seven

gravest challenges for the civilised order in the 21st Century. It is for that

reason that the UN Security Resolution mandated countries to support

that international endeavour through domestic legislation. Sir, let me

divert for one minute, till eighties, nineties, the debate in the United


268

Nations always used to be divided between two points of view. One

point of view said, might your terrorists may be my freedom fighters, I

am not prepared to accept your measures and your yardsticks on him

and the other side would say that an amount, or no end or no purpose

can justify killing of terrorist people. Then the reply would come, for

example, that in Israel, they are no innocent tourists, anyone who goes

to Israel must suffer the fate, that used to be argument. Fortunately, for

us today, Sir, after 9/11 that debate has changed. The idiom of

discourse on terrorism has undergone a paradigm shift. It is now an

accepted truth and accepted reality, and received truth that no end can

justify terror. Therefore, Sir, today having being victims of terror across

the border, from all kinds of places, we as a nation have resolved that

we will not fail our country, that we will not regress in any lethargy, that

there would be no laxity found, and this is just one of the responses

because as I stated in my opening, terrorism, I agree, as Mr. Sitram

Yechury said, cannot be fought by law alone because terrorist by

definition is outside of the law, a Fidayeen or Jehadi has no apology to

any of the law. He comes prepared to die for his cause because his

cause renders him in Jannat and it is supreme for him. Therefore, this

is only the first step in the direction we must travel and that is the long

road ahead. We will not be able to travel that long road ahead if in the

very least, in the very minimum, all shades of opinion do not agree n

one fundamental truth that terror sees no religion, it sees no colour and

it sees no country, it a law unto itself and that is why I say, Sir, in

response to a charge that sometimes these laws are used against a

particular community. I hasten to doubt that statement. I negate that


269

statement. The law on terror sees neither religion nor colour nor

nationality, it only sees the victim, and it only sees the culprit. It is the

duty of the law to bring to justice the perpetrators of this crime; it is the

duty of the law to safeguard the interests of the innocent citizens. On

all these points, Sir, this Bill passes muster. Sir, the National

Investigative Agency Bill is equally important.

(Contd by 4P)

SCH-SSS/6.10/4p

SHRI ASHWANI KUMAR (CONTD.): It is important because we know

that terrorism has transgressed and transcended boundaries. It is not

confined to geographical boundaries. Within a federal country like ours,

with unitary bias, with so many States and links of terror being located

in more than one state, you need an over-arching central agency that

can on demand seek the assistance of the State security apparatus, yet,

have its own over-arching umbrella organisation which owes no apology

to any help coming from somewhere or not coming from somewhere.

Of course, I have reason to believe that if the central agency were to

ask assistance from the State Government that shall be forthcoming.

Every State Government, people of this country as a whole are

nationalist people. They would never unfairly deny that assistance.

Therefore, Mr. Yechury needn't be worried that this would be an

onslaught on the rights of the State. As far as the use of the word

'may' is concerned, he said, that 'well, it only makes it discretionary

upon the Central Agency to ask for assistance and is not mandatory.'

Well, we have known 'may' to have been interpreted and read as 'shall'

and vice versa. But, without getting into the legalities let me just say that


270

whenever assistance will be required from the State Governments, I

know it shall be forthcoming and suppose assistance was sought to

check a terrorist crime and for some A, B, or C reason, hypothetically

speaking, a State Government was unwilling to give that assistance, do

we tell this House, do we tell India that we are impotent in that

situation? No, that is the reason Sir, this investigative agency, this Bill

that seeks to establish for the first time an agency of this kind, meant to

be effective, meant to send out a signal is necessary, and, I think, is a

great and a progressive moment forward. Sir, in conclusion let me just

say this: Nations survive Governments and civilisations survive nations.

We speak today not for one party, not for the Opposition, certainly not

for the ruling party only, but we speak for our country. We speak for

our civilisation, we speak for a way of life, a life that teaches us to

respect every religion, to fight every kind of oppression, to protect the

innocent and the weak and the only agency that man has created to

protect the weak and innocent is the agency of the law and it is for that

purpose that both these Bills very finely sub-serve. I thank you for all the

attention that was given to me.

(Ends)

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(ÃÖ´ÖÖ¯ŸÖ)

DR. V. MAITREYAN (TAMIL NADU): Sir, the UPA Government has

placed before this august House two Bills today for consideration and

debate. One is the Unlawful Activities Prevention (Amendment) Bill,

2008; and the other is the National Investigation Agency Bill, 2008. This

has come after 23 incidents of terror attacks and 910 casualties. This is

according to the Wikipedia. The numbers are likely to be more. Till 22

terror attacks happened, the UPA has been consistently maintaining that

the existing laws are enough to tackle terrorism. Suddenly, after the 26th

November attack, wisdom has dawned upon the Government to

strengthen the laws. Now, it has taken a U-turn. µÖÆü ŒµÖÖ Æãü†Ö, ÛîúÃÖê Æãü†Ö,

ŒµÖÖë Æãü†Ö, Ûú²Ö Æãü†Ö? ÆüÖê´Ö ×´Ö×®ÖÃ™ü¸ü ÛúÖê ¯Öæ”ëûÝÖê, ŸÖÖê ¾ÖÆü ²ÖŸÖÖ‹ÓÝÖê, ¾ÖÆü ”ûÖê›ÍüÖê, µÖÆü ®Ö ÃÖÖê“ÖÖê,

µÖÆü ®Ö ¯Öæ”ûÖê… Mr. Kapil Sibal said that we should send a message not only

to the country, but also to the rest of the world that we are united in

our fight against terrorism. 'Yes', we all want it. The country wants it.

The country wanted it, the country wants it. We had been wanting this

for the last four-and-a-half years. But, Mr. Kapil Sibal, the hard reality is

that you didn't fight against terrorism in the last four-and-a-half years at

all. †Ö¯Ö ŸÖÖê ¸üÞÖ”ûÖê›Íü ¤üÖÃÖ £Öê… ÃÖÖœÍêü “ÖÖ¸ü ÃÖÖ»Ö ´Öë ‹Ûú Ûêú ²ÖÖ¤ü ‹Ûú †™îüÛú ÆüÖêŸÖê ¸üÆêü †Öî¸ü


277

†Ö¯Ö ŸÖ´ÖÖ¿ÖÖ ¤êüÜÖ ¸üÆêü £Öê… Now, suddenly, wisdom has dawned on you. I am

very sure, the real reason for the UPA Government to be pro-active in

their approach towards terrorism is because of the public anger,

outburst and outrage. Public is angry because of your inaction for the

last four-and-a-half years. Public is outraged because of your

inefficiency and ineptitude for the last four-and-a-half years. Now, you

have suddenly realised that the public will not vote for you, and it will

vote you out in the coming Lok Sabha elections if you continue to

remain blind to the terror attack. It is this single factor that has forced

the UPA Government to come out with these two Bills. Your initiative to

bring these two Bills to tackle terrorism may be an electoral compulsion,

but, as far as my party is concerned, my party General Secretary, and

leader, Smt. Puratchi Thalaivi, is concerned, they have been very strong

and consistent crusaders against terrorism. Ever since 1991, for the last

two decades, she has been consistent in her approach towards

terrorism, come what may. She has never, ever changed her stand or

position with regard to her approach towards terrorism. It was she, who

after coming to power in Tamil Nadu in 1991 got the terrorist

organisation, LTTE, banned in the country. As long as she was in

power, she had crushed terrorism ruthlessly, with an iron hand. In fact,

I would like to draw the attention of the House to the speech delivered

by Smt. Puratchi Thalaivi as the Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu during

'The Conference of Chief Ministers on Internal Security and Law and

Order' held on 15.4.2005, after the UPA Government came to power. I

quote, "First and foremost, I would like to invite the attention of the hon.

Prime Minister to the need for a firm and unambiguous stand against


278

terrorism, extremism and all the forces that insidiously strive to tear us

under our polity. (Continued by PB/4T)

PB/4T/6.30

DR. V. MAITREYAN (CONTD.): The olive branch can be shown and kid

glove treatment extended to extremists, Naxalites and even terrorists,

only at our peril. They unfailingly use such opportunities to regroup and

get the time, space and money to renew their violent struggle. It is

always better to isolate the problem and eradicate it, instead of hoping

against hope that there will be a change of heart. In the aftermath of

September 11, 2001 terrorist violence, it would be foolhardy to lower our

defence against the machinations of terrorists. We have to be one step

ahead in our war against terrorism."

It is because of such firm conviction against terrorism shown by

my leader Puratchi Thalaivi, that we support today any effort taken by

any Government to strengthen the anti-terror laws. And we are here

today to support the steps taken by this Government to strengthen the

Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Act, 1967 by the proposed amendments.

Now I come to the second Bill, The National Investigation Agency

Bill, 2008. As a concept, the AIADMK is for and it supports the creation

of an investigation agency at the National level to investigate and

prosecute offence affecting the sovereignty, security and integrity of the

country. I again draw the attention of the House to Madam's speech at

the Chief Ministers' Conference in 2005. I quote, "I would like to draw

the attention to the question of unified intelligence to ensure better

results. Given that terrorism has multifarious dimensions like money

laundering, syndicated crime and drug cartel networks, apart from the


279

links between terrorist groups of different origins, as, for example, the

LTTE with the ULFA, it is important that the State police, the Intelligence

Bureau, the Customs and the Internal Revenue Departments, the

Narcotics Control Bureau and the Coast Guard, apart from the agencies

handling external intelligence like the RAW, are all brought together

under an institutionalized mechanism with an IT-driven database and

information sharing protocol. At the State level, it should be under the

Chief Minister of the State, and, at the level of the Government of India,

under the Union Home Minister or the Cabinet Committee on Security."

Thus, it is clear that while we are firm in our conviction to tackle

terrorism, we are equally firm in protecting the rights of the States.

Whenever the Federal structure enshrined in the Constitution of India is

stramped upon, my leader and my party are the first to raise our voice

against it. The possibility of the Centre misusing its powers as regards

the NIA to target unfriendly State Governments cannot be ruled out. I

repeat again, the possibility of the Centre misusing its powers as regards

the NIA to target unfriendly State Governments cannot be ruled out, just

as the CBI had been misused so often to settle political scores.

Thus, Chapter llI, section 6, sub-sections 5 and 6 give overriding

power to the Central Government, reducing the role of the State

Governments to nothing. Sub section 5 which enables the Central

Government to suo motu direct the agency to investigate should be

deleted. Accordingly sub-section 6 by which the State Government and

any Police Officer of the State Government, investigating the offence, is

prevented from investigation and forced to transmit the relevant

documents and records to the Agency should also be deleted.


280

A close coordination, co-operation and intelligence-sharing

between the State law enforcing authorities and the Central investigating

agencies is very much essential to effectively combat terrorism. The

above clauses, sub-sections 5 and 6, are very much against the spirit of

this cooperation and co-ordination as it exhibits a big brother or one-

upmanship attitude of the Centre.

The war against terrorism is formidable. The Centre and the States

should join together with conviction and determination to stamp out

terrorism. Thank you, Sir.

(Ends)

(Contd. by 4u/SKC)

4u/6.35/skc

DR. JANARDHAN WAGHMARE (MAHARASHTRA): Sir, I stand here to

support the Bill. The Mumbai incident has proved to be an eye opener.

This incident in Mumbai has created a very extraordinary situation.

People are in an angry mood. The whole nation is in an angry mood.

They are even denouncing politicians and demanding that some action

should be taken immediately. In such a situation, we need a very

effective legislation, and I feel that this National Investigation Agency Bill

would give us new hope. We shall be able to prevent terrorism which

has caused loss of lives and property. Sir, laws should be effective and,

at the same time, implemented very effectively. Laws, of course, are

instruments in our hands; they are means. Much depends upon how you

are going to use these instruments or means. Laws, of course, cannot

prevent things. Only after the Act, law comes into play. This is the

National Investigation Agency; this is not the 'National Prevention


281

Agency'. Our problem is, how to prevent terrorism. It is a very complex

phenomenon. The seeds of terrorism are found in fundamentalism. The

roots of terrorism are found in certain countries where training is

provided to the terrorists, and its branches are spread all over the

country. So, this is a very big and complex problem. India has suffered a

lot. No other country in the world has suffered as much as we have

suffered. The international political community also has realised the

gravity of this situation; that is why, international opinion is in our favour.

The tide is in our favour. We need to exploit this situation.

Now, this menace of terrorism has to be fought collectively at the

national level as well as at the international level. Therefore, we have to

be very vigilant. Our police force, our paramilitary forces, our Intelligence

services, all these should be equipped properly with new technology and

we must have a feeling of unity in the country. It is a very good thing

that at this juncture we are united. United we stand, divided we fall.

Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty. So, our people should realise this

and should be united and vigilant.

Sir, in this country, there is a flood of infiltration. This could

convert our country into a trojan horse. People are giving shelter to

terrorists. They are being sheltered; they are being funded. We need to

get to the root cause of all this and take very effective steps to destroy

all these sources of terrorism in the country. Then alone we can be

successful in this. Therefore, the whole nation should be united and

resolve to fight it with full strength.

(Ends)

(Followed by 4w/hk)


282

HK/4w/6.40

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Rajeev Chandrasekharji, in

the others category there are 14 speakers and the time is only one hour.

So, try to be brief.

SHRI RAJEEV CHANDRASEKHAR (KARNATAKA): Sir, thank you for

this opportunity to speak on this vital Bill this evening. This Bill marks

what I hope is the first of the many steps required -- llegal,

administrative -- to secure our nation and our people. I will speak only

on the NIA and the Bill relating to the NIA.

Sir, as many hon. Members have already spoken in the House,

26/11 was an unprecedented attack on our nation. It reinforced the

sometimes forgotten fact, that we have a war being waged against us

as a people and as a nation. The difference, of course, was that this

time the attack was unambiguously on our economic centres and the

economic establishment.

Sir, after some years of neglect, the vital issue of fighting terror is

now taking centre stage, albeit on the back of the tragic events of

Mumbai. Sir, we must approach this whole challenge of terrorism with

the assumption that there will be definitely further attempts to attack

India and our people. The war on terror is not a short-term problem; it

is a medium to long-term challenge requiring us to think of solutions for

both the immediate and the long-term at the same time.

Sir, we are all agreed on the fact that is the most solemn

obligation of the Government to protect its people and, therefore,

priorities facing the Government today are stark and clear. They are,

firstly, to prevent and pre-empt any future terrorist attacks; secondly, to


283

upgrade and scale up our civil defence preparedness in anticipation of

these future attacks, and thirdly, investigate and track down perpetrators

of attacks and their supporters.

Sir, it is in the context of these priorities that we need to discuss

this Bill to create a National Investigative Agency. I have some broad

questions that I will address the Home Minister and I hope that he will

provide answers.

Sir, keeping in mind and reiterating that the Government's

immediate objective is to prevent and pre-empt further attacks, it is

obvious that what is clearly required today is a coherent, cogent

counter-terrorism strategy and an agency to implement that strategy.

The overwhelming opinion in police and security circles is that NIA

should have been the national counter terrorism agency and the skills,

capabilities, personnel and tools required to fight this war on terror be

assembled there.

However, from the reading of the Bill, the NIA is not the counter

terrorism agency that the country requires. It is not obvious to me,

where that resides in the Government and which agency is designated

to lead this counter terrorism efforts. Is it the NIA? Or is it the same

old multiplicity of agencies and institutions with no clear line of command

and ownership? I would humbly and most respectfully urge the

Government to establish a clear counter terrorism strategy and

leadership. If this has to remain secret, so be it. But a confirmation

from the Government that there is such an effort in place and there is

such a leadership in place will go a long way in making the people of

India confident about the efforts underway to fight this menace.


284

Sir, the Bill and the accompanying notes and the discussions in the

public domain suggests that this National Investigative Agency is actually just

replacing the much politicised crime investigative branches of the State police

and, therefore, will be tasked with investigating offences that have already

been committed.

One of the reasons for the weakening and crippling of the capabilities

of the State police agencies is the excessive political interference in

appointments, transfers and promotions to such an extent that the best talent

in our police forces shun going to these Departments. So, there is a follow-

up question that would be useful to get an answer from the Home Minister.

What steps will the Government take to ensure that the NIA will not become

another politicised law and order institution amongst the other institutions that

we already have? This is not a passing concern, given that Governments,

currently and in the past, have had a pathetic track record of building and

nurturing new credible institutions of Governance and keeping them focused

on real work instead of using them for political investigation and intelligence.

We have also seen to our disgust and dismay, political leaders playing politics

with the work and performance of many brave police officers including one

such performance yesterday outside the Parliament.

Sir, Fareed Zakaria in his book, "Post American World" talks of the US,

Britain, Israel shrugging off and bouncing back after terrorist attacks. That is

mainly because they have managed to create professional and capable

institutions in this area that respond swiftly and capably after such attacks.

So, I would urge the Home Minister to look into the downstream issues of

how to nurture and build the NIA into a fine, capable, professional agency

and most importantly an agency that's resistant to politicisation of the kind

that is crippled and eroded so many others in our country. This will also go


285

a long way to gain the respect and trust of the people in what it does and

how it does it.

(Contd. by 4x/KSK)

KSK/MP/4X/6.45 SHRI RAJEEV CHANDRASEKHAR (CONTD): In end, I am not an expert on

the subject of terrorism, but post 26/11, everyone in India has become aware

of its serious threat and the inadequacy of our intelligence and security

organisations and leadership to counter terrorism. Even the Home Minister

has admitted to lapses in the security operations. I, and a large number of

other M.P.s, have urged for an independent inquiry into what went wrong,

like the 9/11 commission in the U.S. I have since been advised that, that

may demoralise the security agencies. That is clearly not our objective. But,

I would reiterate that unless we know what went wrong, we will not know

what to fix and unless we fix the mistakes, we could pay the cost again on

some future date. I would urge upon the Home Minister to give the House

an assurance that he has independently and comprehensively examined and

established the systemic flaws that led to 26/11, especially in areas of joint

action, intelligence follow-up, ownership and integrated functioning of

agencies since these will be required to address the issues of how the NIA

will be organised in future.

Sir, let me end by saying that securing the country has to be a truly

national effort and I hope the current political consensus continues, as the

other important steps to increase and strengthen the security of our country

are planned and implemented.

(Ends)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Pp 573 onwards will be issued as a Supplement.


286

THE NATIONAL INVESTIGATION AGENCY BILL, 2008 AND THE UNLAWFUL ACTIVITIES

(PREVENTION) AMENDMENT BILL, 2008 (CONTD.)

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292

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(5B/LP ¯Ö¸ü †ÖÝÖê)


293

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294

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Thank you very much.

Now, there are 14 speakers more. I am requesting every Member to be

very, very brief.

SHRIMATI KANIMOZHI (TAMIL NADU): Sir, I rise here, on behalf of the

DMK Party, to support both the Bills, and because the pros and cons

and the ifs and buts of these Bills have exhaustively been discussed in

this House, I will make my speech very, very brief.

Sir, this Bill has been termed as 'toothless' by one section and

'clawed' by another. A lot of us are worried about the human rights

and the human rights violation because most of the terror laws have the

danger of falling into this kind of trap. When the extreme stands were

taken by them, we know, as the Home Minister said, that a balance has

been achieved, and I congratulate him on doing that.

Sir, the DMK Party has always opposed the POTA, and we have

been a stronger supporter of repealing the POTA. But, here, we would

like to warn that the anti-terror laws can be misused. If we take the

example of TADA, which has been repealed, it was repealed mainly

because in many of the cases, it is being misused and a lot of innocent

people have been arrested or detained. Under POTA also, people have

faced the similar plight. It is being used against the dalits, against

certain particular communities and religious communities, deprived

sections and political parties. I am very particular in mentioning this over

here because I come from a State where POTA was being used against

the journalists. And it was also being used against the political leaders.

(Contd. by TMV/5C)


295

-MKS-TMV-AKG/5C/7.10

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P. J. KURIEN): You don't listen to that.

(Interruptions)... You address the Chair. (Interruptions)... Don't listen to

that. (Interruptions)...

SHRIMATI KANIMOZHI: It was used against political leaders.

(Interruptions)...

DR. V. MAITREYAN: When political leaders commit mistakes, it has

been used. (Interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: No, please. (Interruptions)... No interruptions,

please. (Interruptions)... That is her opinion. (Interruptions)... No,

please. (Interruptions)...

SHRIMATI KANIMOZHI: It was used against political leaders.

(Interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: You speak. (interruptions)... That is her

opinion. (Interruptions)... Please, proceed.

SHRIMATI KANIMOZHI: Today, they are saying that they have always

supported the anti-terror laws and they have been against terrorism.

Once a person of a political party has been arrested under that Act by a

leader or by a party, and today they have gone for alliance with it. So,

it is actually a case of running with the hare and hunting with the hound.

Some people have mastered that art. (Interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: She is not saying who it is. (Interruptions)...

Why do you worry? (Interruptions)... No, please. (Interruptions)...

DR. V. MAITREYAN: They are worried about the coming election.

(Interruptions)... They are worried about the coming election.

(Interruptions)...


296

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P. J. KURIEN): Maitreyanji, please.

(Interruptions)... No, please. (Interruptions)... You please continue.

SHRIMATI KANIMOZHI: We need not be worried. (Interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: It is your time. (Interruptions)... Please.

(Interruptions)...

SHRIMATI KANIMOZHI: If the power goes into the hands of people like

them, it will be misused. That is the biggest apprehension that we have.

I am just trying to caution because of that. The DMK likes to caution

about the extended detention without bail for 180 days. If a law like this

goes into the hands of wrong people, it can be used against many

innocent people as has already happened. Since we have full faith in

the UPA Government and the Home Minister has promised that we can

revisit this law and make amendments, we support this Bill.

The next thing which I would like to mention is the National

Investigation Agency. The DMK has always been a supporter of the

federal system, autonomy and more powers to the States. Yet, we

support this Bill also. Keeping in mind that India has become a major

target of terrorists and we also understand that there is a great concern

over national security, we support this Bill. But I would like to bring to

the notice of this House and the Minister that, for the first time, in our

federal set-up, where law and order has always been a State subject, a

National Investigation Agency is going to be set up. It should not

become a first step where the State's powers are taken away. It should

not become so because, for the first time, we are opening the doors for

interference by the Central Government and taking away the powers of

the State. Of course, there is a list of scheduled offences which have


297

been given here. The unlawful activities are one of the offences in the

list. I would like to bring to the notice of the Minister that it is a very

large area and it leaves a lot of grey area. We have to be more

specific, what these unlawful activities will be. He has to explain and

make it clear that it would stop with terrorist activities and it would not

go into other kinds of unlawful activities. Clause 9 says, "The State

Government shall extend all assistance and cooperation to the agency

for investigation of scheduled offences". This clause will have to be

clarified because we should know very clearly where the rights of the

Central Government would end. It should be very clearly stated where it

would stop. It is very important because it has been stated here that an

offensive or a hostile Central Government can make an opportunity out

of this. It should not make an opportunity out of this and infringe upon

the rights of the State.

I would also like to know from where the manpower for NIA is

going to come. How is it going to be organised? It can't be started

without manpower. Of course, we need the manpower and we need

help from State agencies. But it is important that it comes from the

Centre. The manpower should come from the Centre and it should be

very clearly stated how it will be done. (Time-bell). Thank you.

(Ends)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Thank you very much.

As soon I rang the bell, you have stopped. You are very disciplined.

Thank you. Shri D. Raja.

(Followed by 5D/VK)


298

VK/5D/7.15

SHRI D. RAJA (TAMIL NADU): Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir, at the outset, I

would like to inform the House that I have given an amendment to the

Unlawful Activities Prevention (Amendment) Bill, 2008 and also some

amendments to the National Investigation Agency Bill, 2008.

Fight against terrorism, is, in other words, fight for defence of

internal security and sovereignty of the country. We will have to fight

terrorism at all levels, not only at the legal level; both external and

internal. Thanks to Dr. Ambedkar, we have a Constitution which is a

republican one. Our country is a democratic republic. The Constitution

guarantees fundamental rights, democratic rights, human rights and all

civil liberties to our citizens. We are a Parliamentary democracy. We

are not a two-party system. In a multi-party democracy, we should try

to build a broader consensus, when laws of this nature are made.

Normally, these Bills should have been referred to the Standing

Committee.

Having said this, I would like to make certain observations

with regard to terrorism itself. In the Statement of Objects and

Reasons, which was circulated on 15th December, 2008, there is a clear

mention of Left-wing extremism, which my colleague Comrade Sitaram

Yechury also referred to. The National Security Guards Act, 1986 says,

"Terrorist means any person who, with intent to overawe the

Government as by law established or to strike terror in the people or any

section of the people or to alienate any section of the people or to

adversely affect the harmony amongst different sections of the people,

does any act or thing by using bombs, dynamite or other explosive


299

substances or inflammable substances or firearms or other lethal

weapons or poisons or noxious gases or other chemicals or any other

substances, whether biological or otherwise, of a hazardous nature, in

such a manner as to cause, or as is likely to cause, death of, or injuries

to, any person or persons or damage to, or destruction of, property or

disruption of any supplies or services essential to the life of the

community".

Here it clearly refers to only one type of extremism, that is Left-

wing extremism. I do not know what is the definition of Left-wing

extremism. Even today the Naxalites do not call themselves Naxalites.

They call themselves Maoists. In such a situation, I would like to know

from the Home Minister what about the right-wing extremism that is

spreading hatred and violence in the society and creating hatred

between one community and the other. How are you going to deal with

right-wing extremism? In this context, I must say that this law is likely

to be misused. I do not want to go into the details. All the details have

been shared in this House about how POTA was misused; how TADA

was misused. But I must say that the misuse was to such an extent

that even people were arrested for the possession of Communist

manifesto written by Marx and Angel, in some States.

(Contd. by 5E)

RG/7.20/5E

SHRI D. RAJA (contd.): And this is obnoxious. Even today such things

are happening. Simply you throw some Maoists' literature into the room

of a person; you arrest him and put him under such draconian laws.

Such abuse and misuse of laws is taking place. There, I think, the


300

Home Minister will have to see how the Unlawful Activities (Prevention)

Act is going to work in the coming days. On this, many issues were

raised. Due to constraint of time, I do not want to go into the details.

At the same time, I have given an amendment in this regard whereby

the provision, of giving the onus on the person to prove himself/herself

as innocent, can be dealt with. Otherwise, with this kind of a provision,

this law will be draconian and repressive, and it can lead to violations of

human rights and democratic rights of the common people. This can be

applied to any person or any section of people. I think the Home

Minister needs to explain to this House how he is going to deal with it.

In the same way, the bail period can be extended from 15 days to 30

days to 60 days, 90 days and then 180 days. How far this can work in

the given situation needs to be explained. That is why I say that this

particular Bill, the Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Amendment Bill, 2008,

needs to be properly scrutinised. We would also like the Home Minister

to consider the amendments given by us. Otherwise, this law can be

misused and abused in the coming days. I would like to warn the

Government of such a problem in the future.

Coming to the National Investigation Agency, in this Bill also, we

have placed certain amendments for the consideration of the hon.

Minister. India is a federal country. Even though we have the Union

Government, we have a federal structure in place. So, the National

Investigation Agency, that we are setting up, should not, in any way,

undermine the federal structure of our polity and it should not encroach

upon the rights of State Governments. In an effort like this, it is always

necessary that State Governments need to be associated. You cannot


301

keep the State Governments outside the decision making process. There

again, we have given one amendment to the Schedule. We have suggested

that six schedules can be in Schedule 'A' and two schedules can be in

Schedule 'B'.

Sir, since our country is a diverse country, and we are having multi-

party democracy, we can have Governments belonging to the same party in

some States and, at the Centre, it can be a different Government. But there

should be all cautions taken to ensure that we do not encroach upon the

powers of the States and we do not undermine the federal character of our

polity and governance. I do not know how the Home Minister is planning to

constitute the National Investigation Agency. What will be its composition?

These details need to be explained. Also, the bureaucrats, or, to say, the

bureaucracy, should be made accountable. From the past experiences, one

can say that the bureaucrats are let out scot-free. It is the politicians who

are punished. Of course, the politicians have to be made accountable for

their action/inaction. At the same time, in case of failures, the bureaucrats,

who are in-charge, also must be made accountable. The Home Minister

needs to explain this as well. At the end, I would like to say that there

cannot be two opinions about our fight against terrorism. At the same

time, it should not become a partisan affair.

(Continued by 5F)

TDB/5F/7.25

SHRI D. RAJA (CONTD.): The effort should not be a partisan one. It should

be a united one, a collective one. The whole country should stand united,

and the Parliament should stand united, for which the Home Minister will

have to concede the views given by other parties, and the amendments given

by us also. Thank you very much, Sir. (Ends)


302

SHRI RAHUL BAJAJ (MAHARASHTRA): Sir, as usual, I stand as an

Independent, but, today, to support both the Bills. Sir, I stand with a lot

of trepidation and nervousness, having seen what happened here today

during the day, big leaders shouting at each other, Sir. They have big

parties supporting them. I only have the poor citizens of India supporting

me, Sir. So, I am very nervous today because I am going to get

brickbats from both the sides. ...(Interruptions)... Sir, I don't need to

make it very clear that we are all proud Indians, and what we are saying

should not be taken as anything against our great country. But, what

has been happening for the last year or two gives the world, and many

in India, an impression that we have become a soft State. The people

the world over, Sir, unfortunate or unfortunate, as it may be, only

respects strength. You have to be militarily strong; you have to be

economically strong; you have to be a stable country; you have to be a

united country. Nobody in the world respects the weak. Keeping that in

mind, Sir, we have to see that there are two sides of the terror coin.

One is, what is happening within our country; and the other is, in our

neighbouring country. At the moment, we speak especially of one

specific country. Unless to some extent, in some way, we take care of

conditions and developments in our neighbouring country as well as

ourselves because we are surrounded, all over the place, between us

and the West, by lots of countries, we cannot succeed. We have to take

care of both of them. I believe, Sir, the citizens of this country, maybe, I

am talking of the Mumbai types, maybe, I am talking of the urban-types,

maybe, I am talking of the elite types, maybe, those with suits and

lipsticks, I don't know, Sir, but they seem to have lost confidence in our


303

ability to govern. We are very conscious about. Sir, every Government

since 1947 has been our Government. We vote for it. So, we are not

complaining against this Government or that Government. But, yes, there

is a feeling, we have heard, against politicians, whatever that means.

But, that does not mean that we can do without politicians. It means we

need good governance, Sir. When we don't see much of a difference

between right and wrong, Sir, then, we land in a situation in which we

are today. For so many years, we have been dividing our society, I have

said this before, Sir, by religion, by caste, religion or whatever reason. I

don't want to say it is vote bank politics, whatever it is. As a

democracy, we want to get re-elected, but there must be a Lakshman

Rekha which we do not cross. Our police force has been emasculated

by the entry of criminals in politics. I am not saying about everybody,

but there are a few criminals in politics. If we need to declare a war, Sir,

no sensible man should say we should declare a war. But, yes; we need

a war against corruption, moral corruption and financial corruption.

Faced with today's absurd, perpetual threat to life, the civil society in

India, at least, what I see it, is reacting. It has started moving. The

efforts amongst the minority community, I am very happy to say, Sir,

also to take a clear stand on terror, is moving in the right direction. The

result, according to me -- Sir, I am not a politician, as knowledgeable as

people here -- the recent elections in five States, also show, people, by

and large, want to reward performance and are not gullible enough to

listen to electoral rhetoric. Sir, I have a few suggestions for the Home

Minister. We have a lot of complaints about incompetence of people

who are supposed to do different jobs, supposed to guard us. But, as


304

has been said earlier, who has been punished. There is no question of

taking names of anybody. But, our intelligence agency, whether it is the

IB or whether it is the RAW, we have the new Agency coming up, and

somebody said, my colleague, Rajeev Chandrasekhar said that we have

to ensure ourselves that it is not just other agency, the similar people

who are going to man it. So, ultimately, as I said a few days ago during

the course of the discussion in this House, we need accountability, we

need some reward and punishment based on performance, not because

I like your face. I don't see how it is coming, but without that -- you can

have all the equipment -- you can have everything -- Sir, it is going to

be difficult to solve our problem. (Contd. by 5g-kgg)

kgg-klg/5g/7.30

SHRI RAHUL BAJAJ (contd.): Sir, it is a minor point, maybe; if the

citizens cannot be secure, we have heard the complaints, then who are

leaders to be so secure? I am not saying no political leader or

bureaucrat should have security, but how much security? How much

money is being spent? We keep hearing in the media that that should all

be reduced. Some need it and they should get it based on the threat

perception and the rest should not. So, NSG has to be strengthened,

R&AW has to be strengthened, IB has to be strengthened. We should

also tie up with the U.S.A., the U.K., even Israel. Whoever can help us

become more efficient and strengthen our intelligence agencies and our

entire administration, their help should be taken. (Time-bell)

Ultimately, I would only close by saying, Sir, because you never

gave me time; whenever I speak, you are sitting! (Interruptions) You ring

the bell. (Interruptions)


305

SHRI AMAR SINGH: Sir, I have a point of order. (Interruptions)

SHRI RAHUL BAJAJ: Mr. Amar Singh always takes my time, Sir.

(Interruptions) Sir, there is no personal conflict of interests.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): What is the point of

order? (Interruptions)

SHRI AMAR SINGH: The point of order is, he does not have any party;

he has got NCP, BJP and Shiv Sena; 3 parties unlike us, Sir! We are

supported by only one party! He is supported by three parties.

(Interruptions)

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Æü´ÖÖ¸üÖ ²Ö•ÖÖ•Ö! (Interruptions)

SHRI RAHUL BAJAJ: ‡ÃÖ ÛúÖê ÛúÆüŸÖê Æïü Æü´ÖÖ¸üÖ ²Ö•ÖÖ•Ö! Sir, misfortune of Amar

Singhji's party, which I respect, is they did not have enough votes in my

State. They would also have ensured by voting for me. He is supporting

my nephew very strongly, which I appreciate very much.

Sir, accountability, performance and performance should be there.

Reward should go to those who perform and punish those who do not.

Thank you, Sir.

(Ends)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: You wanted seven minutes and you took less

than that. Thank you.

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA (JHARKHAND): Sir, I am here to speak on the

National Investigation Agency Bill, 2008, and the Unlawful Activities

Prevention (Amendment) Bill, 2008. Sir, I am on a very limited point. I do

not want to give a big speech, nor would I want to blame anybody. If at

all I have to blame, I should blame the terrorists and the people who are

supporting the terrorists. Sir, we have lost our Prime Minister in 1984, we


306

have lost a former Prime Minister, Shri Rajiv Gandhi, in 1991. We have

lost the Punjab Chief Minister. I have seen the different faces of

terrorism. Sir, while democracy is as necessary for the creation of a civil

society, as breath is to human life, it is equally important for us to realise

that there is one single phenomenon; and, one single enemy of the

society is the new phenomenon, terrorism. We have seen, Sir, that the

Jammu and Kashmir Assembly was attacked, then Parliament was

attacked, the Red Fort was attacked, and then serial bomb blasts

happened in trains in Mumbai, in 2006. We have seen in Ahmedabad,

we have seen Surat, we have seen Jaipur, Hyderabad, Guwahati,

everywhere. It is also clear that they have an agenda. And I have

chalked out, and they have four things. When we treat these people,

when we are discussing to bring in this law, scrapping that law, we are

talking big, big things. But we are not discussing one thing. The first

and the foremost is that these acts showed that no nation and no

people are proof against terrorism today. We have seen the Twin

Towers; we have seen Melbourne; we have seen Spain; we have seen

London and then we have seen India. The terrorists of today are not

simple-minded anarchists. They are clever and calculating. They are

organised, they are well-funded and trained in the use of modern

technology for their acts of destruction.

(Contd. by kls/5h)

KLS/5H/7.35

SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA (CONTD): They are not mindless, they are well

functioning but with evil minds. Secondly, terrorism today knows no

boundaries. If somebody thinks that it is Gujarat, forget about it, it will


307

not come to his State, he is living in a fools' paradise. Terrorism today

knows no boundaries; terrorists have their networks throughout the

world and will strike the target of their choice anywhere any time.

Thirdly, it is clear that terrorism hate the fact that it is democracy that

has led to the economic prosperity of the nation and it is democracy

that makes the success of the secular and pluralistic society such as

India. The more democracy succeeds the more desperate and more

vicious are the terrorists. Fourthly, these terrorist acts underline that

there are nations that are deeply involved in financing terror. They are

sponsoring them and providing safe havens for them. Finally and the

most dangerously terrorists whether individual or state find a fertile

ground for recruiting people for their evil designs through a perverted

use of religion and in its fundamentalist form. I have seen how Punjab

was intense to terrorism, I have seen when I was a student in Calcutta

University how Bengal was intense to Naxalism, one side Gopibalabhpur

and on the other side Naxalbadi and this is how it takes strength. You

have to deal with it properly but I am not fighting on these small things

but I am saying, Sir, today you have brought two Bills. My first speaker

Arun Sahib, he is a barrister, he has spoken, then another Mr. Kapil

Sibal, he is also a barrister, he has also spoken on that, and then Mr.

Singhvi and then Mr. Ashwani Kumar, everybody, all barristers and you

yourself, Sir, you are also a barrister. So, all are legal luminaries, I am

not. I know only one thing that whether it is the National Investigative

Agency, NIA or Unlawful Activities Prevention (Amendment) Bill, the

people of this country want some law, some unity, somebody should

come forward to protect their interests, to protect their children, restore


308

the sense of security because they have lost trust in politicians, in

governance, everywhere. That is why everywhere they are cursing us.

Now it is high time to come out with a strong legislation and what I

narrated you in five points is that you are not dealing with an armed

force, you are dealing with a committed terrorists and they are not

anarchists, they are not criminals, they have a specific target, aims and

objects. We will only prepare that we will kill them; we will arrest them;

we will prevent them; we will detain them but they will kill you; they will

decide the date, they will decide the place and they will decide the time

and this is going to happen. How to stop it? Sir, when I was looking at

NIA -- I do not want to go into the nitty-gritty -- I know personally that

you were the architect of TADA, you were the architect of the SPG, you

were the architect of NSG in this country. Now, I have little faith that

you will bring some stringent law to control this but while drafting this

you must see the Section 2 of NIA, 1(f) says, "Schedule means Schedule

to this Act" and then Chapter III is dealing with all Schedule Offences

and those Schedules are mentioned in the last page. In last page, I am

talking about 8(b).

(Contd by 5J/SSS)

SSS/5J/7.40

SHRI S. S. AHLUWALIA (CONTD.): In the last page -- I am talking

about 8 (b) -- It is 489 (a) to 489 (e), both inclusive of the Indian Penal

Code. I will just read out the Indian Penal Code for the information of

the House. This is 489 (a) to 489 (e). All are talking about counterfeiting

of notes. But why have you kept (e)? You know the punishment of (e)?

It is only a fine of Rs. 100. So you are giving a handle in the hand of


309

the executor, the police officer. If you want to release anybody under

this Section, he will book him and release him after charging not Rs.

100, maybe something more. What will you do? He has involved the

Schedule. Why have you kept this Section here? You must keep some

section where you can send them to jail for whole life or at least for ten

years. But, why this? You are a learned lawyer. You know better than

me. You can read all this. The second thing is, Sir, why have you

chosen this unlawful activity? You know the historical background of

this Bill. It was started in 1967. Why was it started? It was started for

a district, Aizawl to control the Mizo agitation. You want to build the

entire preventive Bill on that. Rajiv Gandhi has done a marvellous job.

He has gone for Rajiv Lal Denga Accord and after that peace returned

to Mizoram. But, do you think this is enough? Whatever it maybe, if

your foundation is weak, whatever building you may make, it will fall

down like a pack of cards. Today you need a Bill. Everybody saw it.

They were using Blackberry, they were using VOIP, they were using

Google maps, they were using all sorts of gadgets which are available

today and they were not only using the internet of India, they were using

the internet of Russia, Pakistan, Bangladesh. You cannot locate it. They

were using satellite phones which cannot be jammed by Indian jammers

because satellite phones work from Austria or from America. One

connection was from New Jersey and another connection was from

Austria. They were getting all information from Bangladesh and a

Bangladesh person was talking to Pakistan and he was getting

information. And do you think with this Bill and with this Rs. 100 fine we

are going to control? You must think about it. You have brought a Bill


310

and it is our moral responsibility as a BJP party and we have decided

that we will support whatever you do. Punish them, stop this menace

and if required finish the breeding centre from where they are coming

but do something. Do it with iron hands, not with velvet hands, and, I

believe, you will not use a velvet gloves, you will use the iron hand

because I have seen you working as an Internal Security Minister. This

is your assignment. This is a challenge for you. The entire nation has

reposed trust on you. You come out and do something but don't

depend on redundant Bills. (Ends)

(Followed by NBR/5K)

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×Ûú •ÖÖê Ûãú”û µÖÆüÖÓ Æãü†Ö Æîü, µÖÆü Æü´ÖÖ¸üÖ indigenous terrorism ®ÖÆüà Æîü, µÖÆü ²ÖÖÆü¸ü ÃÖê ‡´¯ÖÖê™Ôü

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314

دو جو نے منسٹر ہوم بليآنر ہمارے سر، : )بنگال یمغرب (یآباد حيمل ديسع احمد جناب

Unlawful Activities (Prevention) اور Nation Investigative Agency Bill بل

Amendment Bill شيد ہمارے آج ۔ںيہ کرتے سپورٹ یک ان لوگ ہم ں،يہ کئے شيپ

ہے ايگ ہو یضرور لئے کے کرنے مقابلہ کا اس اب ہے، ہوا شروع حملہ جو اوپر کے

اريت لئے کے مقابلے اس ساتهہ کے یمضبوط یپور قوم یپور اور حکومت یہمار کہ

زينريمش جو ں،يہ اںيجنسيا جو ںيم حکومت یہمار ۔کرے مقابلہ کا اس اور ںيجائ ہو

یضرور ہي ہم ۔ںيہ لئے کے کرنے مضبوط ہاتهہ کے ان قانون دونوں ہي ں،يہ

یسٹيانو شنلين جو ہي اب اور ںيہ آئے شيپ واقعات جو ںيم یممبئ کہ ںيہ سمجهتے

ساتهہ یہ ساتهہ کے جانے ہو سپا کے بل اس ہے، یرہ ہو establish یجنسيا ٹويگ

۔چاہئے جانا آ ںيم شنيآپر کو یجنسيا اس

یجنسيا ٹويگ یسٹيانو شنلين ہي ہے یونت ہي سے ميماده کے آپ یريم مہودے،

اوپر کے شيد ہمارے جو ہو، سيک وہ کرے، ٹيگ یسٹيانو کو جس سيک پہال اپنا

سےيک سب ہي آخر کہ جائے ندرا کے یگہرائ یک اس ہے، ہوا حملہ بڑا اتنا ںيم یممبئ

۔ہو سکتا ہو دار ذمہ لئے کے اس کون اور ہوا سے دوش کے کس ہوا، کر وںيک ہوا،

ہو establish بات ہي اب کہ وںيک ہے، یضرور بہت لئے اس کرنا ٹيگ یسٹيانو ہي

باہر ہي ہے، ںينہ indigenous terrorism ہمارا ہي ہے، ہوا ہاںي کچهہ جو کہ ہے یگئ

یک سازش اس لہذا ہے، ہوا تحت کے سازش یشنليانٹرن ہي ہے، ايگ ايک مپورٹا سے

ملک یپڑوس ہمارے کہ ںيہ رہے کهہيد ہي ہم ۔ہے یضرور بہت جانا ںيم یگہرائ

رہے کہہ کچهہ جو وہ سے وہاں اب ں،يہ یرہ جا یک ںيحرکت یبه کچهہ جو ہاںي سے

۔ںيہ رہے جا لے تک دور بہت باتا تانا کا اس وہ ں،يہ

یپڑوس ہمارے کہ ہوں چاہتا کہنا کو بات اس سے ميماده کے آپ ںيم مہودے،

یجنسيا وزين نيفار کيا کل نے صاحب یزرداد جناب محترم صدر کے پاکستان ملک

کا پاکستان کہ ہے چهوڑا شوشہ اين کيا نے انہوں اب ںيم اس اور ہے ايد ويانٹرو کو


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۔ہے یکرائ نے ۔اے۔یآئ۔یس یک کايامر سب ہي بلکہ ہے، ںينہ دوش یکوئ ںيم اس

جب ۔گے ںيل نام یبه کا موساد ساتهہ کے اس وہ ديشا کہ تها انتظار کا بات اس تو ںيہم

قائم یجنسيا جو ہم کہ ہے جاتا ہو یضرور بہت ہي تو ں،يہ یرہ پہنچ تک ہاںي ںيبات ہي

اس اب ۔ںيد کرا شروع یبه کام کا اس اور ہو قائم جلد سے جلد وہ ں،يہ رہے جا کرنے

کل اور ںيہ رہے سن سے صبح لوگ ہم ں،يہ یہوئ یسيا ںيبات کچهہ ہاںي ںيم سلسلے

مارے لوگ جو ہے، ہوا ںيم یممبئ یبه کچهہ جو ،یته یہوئ چرچا ںيم سبها لوک

عام یبه جو ہوں، کے ۔یج۔سيا۔نيا چاہے ہوں، کے فورس سيپول وہ چاہے ں،يہ گئے

کيشر ںيم غم اور دکهہ کے ان لوگ ہم ۔ہے یہمدرد یہمار هہسات کے سب ہو، پبلک

لوگ سب ہے، ہوتا دايپ اليخ جو ںيم دل کے لوگوں کہ ہے یضرور بات ہي کنيل ۔ںيہ

۔ايک ںينہ کچهہ نے آپ کہ ہے رہا آ اوپر کے شئنيٹيپول الزام سارا اب ں،يہ سوچتے ہي

یبه جو لئے کے تهام کرو یک اس نے حکومت کہ ہے ہوتا دايپ ہي سوال ہاںي

ہمارے وہاں ۔ہے ايک ںينہ اي ہے ايک پورا کام اپنا نے انہوں ں،يہ یرکه کر قائم زينريمش

یک ان ، ںيم بارے کے موت یک ان گئے، مارے سريآف کے پولس بہادر بہت کيا

یہمدرد یپور کو لوگوں سب ںيم بارے کے ہالکت یک ان ں،يم بارے کے شہادت

یک سب ان! ايگ ہو سےيک سب ہي کہ ںيہ سوچتے ضرور بات ہي لوگ کنيل ہے،

ںيم شنين پورے ہمارے کہ ںيہ سوچتے ہي ہم ۔ہے یضرور بہت جانا ںيم یگہرائ

یرہ ہو اندر کے اس بات غلط یکوئ کہ رہے نہ شبہ و شک یکوئ ںيم دماغ کے یکس

۔سکے ہو متحد ساتهہ کے اس قوم یپور تاکہ ہے،

یک بل Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Amendment تک جہاں مہودے،

سلسلے کے اس کنيل ں،يہ ساتهہ کے حکومت سے طرح یپور ہم ںيم اس ہے، بات

دوبارہ پهر اوپر کے بل اس ہم کہ تهے رہے کہہ منسٹر ہوم بليآنر یک صبح آج ںيم

کدميا قانون یبه یکوئ کا ايدن کہ ہوں سمجهتا ہي ںيم ۔ںيکهيد ںيم نےيمہ کے یفرور

یک کرنے کچهہ ںيکہ نہ ںيکہ اور یکبه نہ یکبه ںيم اس ہے، ہوتا ںينہ فائنل


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ضرور کو ان ں،يہ ہوئے شيپ نٹسينڈميام جو ہاںي آج ۔ہے یآت شيپ ضرورت

consider ڈيريپ لمبا کا دن 180 یعني نےيمہ چهہ جو ہي طورسے خاص ۔چاہئے کرنا

سوچنا ضرور ںيم بارے کے اس ہے، ادہيز ہتب ہي سے اليخ رےيم ہے، ايگ رکها

۔چاہئے سوچنا ضرور ںيم بارے کے یلبرٹ یک لوگوں ں،يم بارے کے اس ۔چاہئے

ہے، اپرادهہ کيا پر جگہ یاپن خود ہي تو ہے، یجات یلبرٹ یک یآدم innocent اگر

کے اس ں،يہ ايک دن 180 لئے کے اس تو ہے، یجات یلبرٹ یک اس ہے، مجرم جو کنيل

۔ہے کم تو جائے، ايد کر یبه الئف ہول لئے کے اس ں،يہ کم یبه دن 80 الکهہ 2 لئے

و شک محض لئے کے ڈيريپ لمبے کو یآدم گناہ بے کو، یآدم نردوش یبه یکس کنيل

یک ٹاڈا ہے، یہسٹر کيا سامنے ہمارے کہ لئے اس چاہئے، رکهنا ںينہ ںيم شبہ

رہا شبہ و شک بہت ںيم لوگوں ںيم بارے کے اس ۔ہے یہسٹر یک پوٹا ہے، یہسٹر

یآدم 000،75-000،80 کہ تها رہا ہوا شيپ ہي یبه آج ۔۔۔۔۔یآدم ہزار ہزاروں اور ہے

۔پڑا چهوڑنا کو سب ںيم آخر ہوا؟ کنوکشن کا وںيآدم کتنے ںيم اس اور گئے پکڑے

بات ناکافسوس ادہيز سے سب ںيم اس اور رہے بند لوگ سال دس-دس سال، آٹهہ-آٹهہ

۔یته ادہيز بہت تعداد یک ان تهے، ادہيز لوگ کے یونٹيکم یمائنارٹ ںيم اس کہ ہے ہي

ہي جو اب کہ ہے ايگ اياٹها سوال ہي ہے، رہا ہو دايپ اليخ ہي ںيم دل کے لوگوں آج

ہاںي مقصد کا کہنے رےيم ۔پڑے نہ وہاں چوٹ یکوئ پهر ںيم اس ہے، رہا بن قانون

یکوئ ںيم اس ۔بنا قانون کا مرڈر کا 302 بنے، اچها یبه اکتن قانون کہ ہے ہي

یکوئ گا، جائے ايک وزي-مس یبه ںيکہ اگر کو 302 اگر کنيل ۔ہے ںينہ یکنٹروورس

سوال ۔ہے وزي-مس وہ تو ہے، یپڑت یاٹهان فيتکل کو اس اور ہے جاتا پکڑا گناہ بے

کرنے نٹيم یامپل کو اس ں،يہ سکتے بنا اچها سے اچهے تو قانون ہم کہ ہے ہي ہاںي

لئے اس بات ہي ۔چاہئے ہونا کنٹرول پورا ہمارا اوپر کے اس ہے، جو ینريمش یوال

ں،يہ گئے کئے شيپ ہاںي نٹسينڈميام جو کہ ہوں سمجهتا ںيم ۔ہے یضرور بہت

۔جائے ايک تو ہے، سکتا جا ايک وسيڈير اگر کو اس ہے، ڈيريپ لمبا ہي ہي پر طورہ خاص


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ايک ہم ۔ںيرکه کو یکس ہم تک دنوں 90 کہ ہے یہوت بہت تو مدت یک نےيہم نيت

سکتے؟ کر ںينہ یبه ںيم نےيمہ نيت سکتے؟ کر ںينہ ٹيگ یسٹيانو

چاہتا کہنا ہي صرف ںيم آخر ںيم ---)یگهنٹ یک وقت(--- ہے جو بات یدوسر

چرين ہم اگر ۔چاہئے ہٹنا ںينہ چهےيپ کو ہم سے جسٹس چرلين اندر کے کورٹ کہ ہوں

سے وہاں ائےيان وہ تو گے، ںيجائ خالف کے جسٹس چرلين گے، جائيں خالف کے

الزام اوپر کے جس ہے، ايگ ايبنا accused جو شخص یکوئ ۔ہے جاتا ہو شروع

اس چاہئے، کرنا پروو سيک اپنا کو prosecution تو پہلے اوپر کے اس ہے، ايگ ايلگا

ں،ينہ کہ ںيل کر presume ہي ہم اگر کنيل ۔ںيہ تےيد حق کا نسيڈف کو اس ہم بعد کے

ہي کہ ہوں سمجهتا ںيم تو ہوگا، کرنا ثابت نردوش کو اپنے یہ کو اس ہے، ايگ پکڑا جو

نٹسينڈميام جو ہي ۔چاہئے رکهنا انيده کا باتوں ان لئے اس ۔ہے ںينہ جسٹس چرلين

کو ہاؤس اس اور کو صاحب ٹرمنس ہوم بليآنر ہمارے ضرور اوپر کے ان ں،يہ آئے

تو ں،يہ سکتے کر سدهار کچهہ ںيم initial stage یاس ہم اگر ۔چاہئے کرنا غور

چاہئے یہون ںينہ غلط اديبن یک اس ں،يہ رہے کر شروع ہم سے جہاں کہ وںيک ں،يکر

یہمار لئے کے اس ں،يہ رہے جا کرنے کام جو ہم کہ ہے ہي بات یبڑ سے سب اور

ں،يہ رہے جا ںيم کشنيڈائر رائٹ ہم کہ چاہئے ہونا حاصل ںيہم نسيڈکونف کا قوم

کچهہ جو لئے کے رکشا یک شيد اپنے ہم اور ںيہ رہے کر کام ںيم سمت حيصح

یک وقت(--- چاہئے ہونا کجٹيا کو قوم یپور ںيم اس اور گے ںيکر سب ہے، ممکن

کا شنيونالئزيکم ںيم اس نہ ۔ہے ںينہ سوال کا ہونے الگ الگ کو یکس ---)یگهنٹ

کو قوم یپور آج ۔ہے سوال کا مسلمان اور ہندو کا طرح یکس ںيم اس نہ ہے، سوال

۔یبه کو یسائيع اور یبه کو سکهہ ،یبه کو مسلمان یبه کو ہندو - ہے ہونا ساتهہ کيا

۔ہيشکر بہت بہت

"شد ختم"


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SHRI KUMAR DEEPAK DAS (ASSAM): Sir, there have been a number

of massive terrorist attacks in the country. Now, the Government of

India intends to add extra teeth to the law in an effort to win the war

against terrorism. A new federal agency has been proposed to

exclusively investigate the terror crimes. The Government is also

amending the provisions of the Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Act. The

Assam Gana Parishad is always in favour of taking stern action against

terrorist activities in the country. But in the name of anti-terrorism

actions, the human rights of innocent people should not be violated.

We have had very bad experience of the draconian law, called, the

Armed Forces Special Power Act, the POTA and the TADA in the past.

To fight the naga rebels in Nagaland, the Armed Forces Special Power

Act was imposed, but the terrorist activities are still there in Nagaland.

Later on, it was extended to the entire North-East, but the terrorist

activities could not be curbed. However, due to this Act, a number of

cases of human rights violation happened in Assam, Nagaland and

Manipur. A constable can kill a person without any investigation in the

name of tackling terrorism. Such a draconian Act should be scrapped.

The hon. Members and the senior lawyers, like, Jaitleyji, Kapil

Sibalji, discussed about the TADA and the POTA, but, I am sorry, they

did not utter even a single word about the draconian law that prevails

only in the North-East. (Contd. by 5m -- VP)

-MP/SC-VP/7.55/5M

SHRI KUMAR DEEPAK DAS (CONTD.): Why is it applicable to the

North-Eastern region only? The misuse of TADA and NSA for detaining

political opponents has been evident in the past. Therefore, on behalf of


319

the Assam Gana Parishad, I appeal to the Government and to all

sections of this House to support this point that Parliament should have,

at least, six months time for review of Unlawful Activities Prevention Act,

even though it is a permanent law. We must remember, TADA and

POTA were rolled back after receiving complaints of abuse. The

Government should make a provision for monitoring implementation of

UAPA through an all-Party Parliamentary Committee. Sir, please don't

compromise human rights and fundamental rights of the people in the

name of curbing terrorism. Sir, I believe, only enacting laws will not curb

terrorism in the North East. There are three major issues that the

Government of India should take up for redressal. First, it should stop

illegal immigration and seal the Indo-Bangladesh border. Secondly, it

should concentrate on the development of the North Eastern Region.

We are far behind other parts of the country. Thirdly, there is the

unemployment problem. In Assam alone, there are 22 lakh unemployed

people. The Government should, definitely, take proper and necessary

action in this regard. With these few words, I conclude my speech.

Thank you. (Ends)

SHRI ABANI ROY (WEST BENGAL): Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, I am

here to support the Bill with some amendments or with some

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†Ö‹ÓÝÖê? •ÖÖê Æü´ÖÖ¸üß ¯Öã¸üÖ®Öß ‹•ÖëÃÖß•ÖÌ Æïü, ¸üÖò Æîü, ÃÖß²Öß†Ö‡Ô Æîü µÖÖ ¤æüÃÖ¸üß ‡Ó™êü»Öß•ÖëÃÖ ‹•ÖëÃÖß•ÖÌ Æïü,

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ˆÃÖÛêú ®Öß“Öê Æïü µÖÖ ˆÃÖÛêú ‰ú¯Ö¸ü Æîü? µÖÆü ³Öß ÃÖ¾ÖÖ»Ö ˆšüŸÖÖ Æîü ×Ûú Æü´ÖÖ¸üß ‡Ó™êü»Öß•ÖëÃÖ Ûúß •ÖÖê

ÜÖ²Ö¸ü ÆüÖêÝÖß, ¾ÖÆü ÜÖ²Ö¸ü ÛîúÃÖß ÆüÖêÝÖß, ‡ÃÖ ÃÖ²ÖÛúÖ ¬µÖÖ®Ö ¤êü®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹…

(5‹®Ö-‹´ÖÃÖß‹´Ö ¯Ö¸ü ÛÎú´ÖÖÝÖŸÖ)

MCM-PB/5N/8-00

ÁÖß †¾Ö×®Ö ¸üÖµÖ (ÛÎú´ÖÖÝÖŸÖ) : ÃÖÖ£Ö Æüß ÃÖÖ£Ö ´Öï µÖÆü ³Öß ÛúÆæÓüÝÖÖ ×Ûú ‡ÃÖ´Öë •ÖÖê ™êü¸üÖê×¸ü•´Ö Ûúß ²ÖÖŸÖ

Æîü †Öî¸ü ™êü¸üÖê×¸ü•´Ö ´Öë »Öê°™ü Ø¾ÖÝÖ Ûúß ²ÖÖŸÖ ÛúÆüß ÝÖ‡Ô Æîü… Æü´Öë ¯ÖŸÖÖ ®ÖÆüà … All are in the

right wing, so they attack the Left wing. This is not the way. µÖÆü ÝÖ»ÖŸÖ

²ÖÖŸÖ Æîü… Terrorism is terrorism †Öî¸ü ™êü¸üÖê×¸ü•´Ö ÃÖê ±úÖ‡™ü Ûú¸ü®ÖÖ Æîü, »Öê°™ü Ø¾ÖÝÖ Ûêú ÆüÖë,


321

¸üÖ‡™ü Ø¾ÖÝÖ Ûêú ÆüÖë, ÛúÆüà Ûêú ³Öß ÆüÖë Æü´Öë ˆÃÖÛêú ×»Ö‹ ¤êüÜÖ®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹… You should not

mention it in this way. ŒµÖÖë ®Ö Æü´ÖÖ¸êü µÖÆüÖÓ •ÖÖê ™êü¸üÖê×¸ü•´Ö Æîü, ²ÖÆãüŸÖ ×¤ü®Ö ÃÖê †ÃÖ´Ö ´Öë

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´ÖÆüß®Öê ´Öë Ûãú”û ®Ö Ûãú”û ‘Ö™ü®ÖÖ ÆüÖêŸÖß Æîü… ŸÖÖê ‡ÃÖÛêú ×»Ö‹ Æü´Ö ŒµÖÖë ®ÖÆüà Ûú¸ëü… Æü´Ö®Öê †³Öß Ûãú”û

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“ÖÖ×Æü‹, ‡ŸÖ®Öê ×¤ü®Ö ¾ÖÆüÖÓ ÆüÖê®ÖÖ “ÖÖ×Æü‹… ‹êÃÖÖ ´Öï ‡ÃÖ×»Ö‹ ÛúÆü ¸üÆüÖ ÆæÓü ×Ûú Æü´Ö ÃÖ³Öß •ÖÖ®ÖŸÖê Æïü

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•ÖÖ‹… Æü´Ö®Öê ‡ÃÖÃÖê ¯ÖÆü»Öê ›üß0†Ö‡Ô0†Ö¸ü0 ¤êüÜÖÖ, ´ÖßÃÖÖ ¤êüÜÖÖ, ™üÖ›üÖ ¤êüÜÖÖ, ¯ÖÖê™üÖ ¤êüÜÖÖ †Öî¸ü

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¯ÖÏÛúÖ¸ü ¯ÖÏ×ŸÖ¾ÖÖ¤ü ×ÛúµÖÖ £ÖÖ… ŸÖÖê Æü¸ü “Öß•Ö ÛúÖê ¬µÖÖ®Ö ´Öë ¸üÜÖŸÖê Æãü‹ Æü´Ö ‡ÃÖÛúÖê »Öë †Öî¸ü ‹êÃÖÖ »ÖÖò

²Ö®ÖÖ‹Ó, ‹êÃÖß ‡Ó¾ÖêÃ™üßÝÖê¿Ö®Ö ‹•ÖëÃÖß ²Ö®ÖÖ‹Ó ×•ÖÃÖÃÖê Æü´ÖÖ¸êü ¤êü¿Ö ÛúÖ ™êü¸üÖê×¸ü•´Ö ÜÖŸ´Ö ÆüÖê… •ÖÖê ²ÖÖŸÖ

Æü´Ö®Öê ‡ÃÖÃÖê ¯ÖÆü»Öê ×¤ü®Ö ¿Öãºþ Ûúß £Öß ˆÃÖ ÆüÖ»ÖŸÖ ´Öë, we shall have to fight for

terrorism and we have to end terrorism. If we want to end terrorism by

our will, by our force, then we have to think in a different way and we

have to act according to that. I think, the Government of India, while


322

making this law and this Investigating Agency, should keep in mind that

this should be used properly. This should be used for the internal

terrorists or for the external terrorists. It should be used for terrorists and

not for creating terrors for those who are innocent. Thank you.

(Ends)

SHRI M.V. MYSURA REDDY (ANDHRA PRADESH): Mr. Deputy

Chairman, Sir, I will support this Bill on behalf of the Telugu Desam

Party in the national interest.

The one thing that I want to say is that these two Bills, i.e., the

NIA Bill and the UAPA Bill, are reactive rather than proactive. Now, the

people of India are facing terrorism of one type. They are fidayeens who

are coming from foreign land. Some terrorists within the country strike in

this country and run away either to Bangladesh or to Pakistan. These

are safe havens for them. Then, we are fighting with such enemies who

are having scant respect for our law and they are perverted and sadist

also. Another aspect of this is that financial assistance, training,

recruitment of such terrorists and conspiracies are conceived by foreign

masters. Sir, there are two Bills.

(Contd. by 5o/SKC)

5o/8.05/skc

SHRI M.V. MYSURA REDDY (Contd.): One is meant for investigation

while the other is meant for prosecution. If we analyse the Mumbai

incident and other such incidents, the terrorists either get killed by the

security personnel, or they take people hostages to protect themselves,

or, as a last resort, commit suicide. So, the proposed NIA would start

working only after the incident takes place. There is not much to


323

investigate because the accused would have either died or fled to other

countries. We can only gain some experience out of these investigations.

As for prosecution, I would say they don't come to us with folded hands

to get themselves arrested or taken into custody! If you look at the

figures of the last decade, very few people got arrested.

Sir, as far as terrorists are concerned, this law is odourless,

tasteless and colourless. But when it comes to the common man, it is a

draconian law. For example, if a man rents his room to a youngster, a

student, who then turns into a terrorist and gets involved in some

unlawful activity, then according to the section for prosecution, that

landowner shall be considered to have aided or abetted the crime and

he shall be booked. Either knowingly or unknowingly, the landlord

becomes a victim of this draconian law. At some stage, Clauses

43E(a)(b) could be misused and they could be misused even politically.

So, there has to be some review mechanism. There is a review

mechanism provided for in this Bill, but it is not sufficient to protect the

common man. They need conduct review case by case and see to it

that no innocent person is harassed. Such provisions should be provided

for in this Act. Otherwise, this law would definitely be misused against

the common man.

Then, Sir, terrorists have the intention of destruction and they have

scant respect for our laws and our Constitution. They want to destabilise

the country. We cannot do much with these two laws. It is like a Pundit

chanting a powerful mantra before an angry tiger! They come here to

destabilise the country. They are not believers of our Constitution and

our laws. In such a situation, why should we think of giving any kind of


324

protection or think of the human rights angle for such terrorists as if they

are law-abiding citizens?

One more point and I shall conclude my speech, Sir. Intelligence

plays a more role in the prevention of terrorism. Of course, we have the

RAW, IB, Defence Intelligence and State Intelligence, but there is no

coordination among these agencies. This angle has already been

accepted by the Home Minister also. Now, there is need for a dedicated

Intelligence agency. At present, the IB and other Intelligence agencies

have no accountability. There is no morality in the force and no special

prestige for the force. As a result, people do not feel proud working in

these Intelligence agencies. I would have been happy if the Home

Minister had brought a National Security branch instead of NIA, on the

lines of the FBI, so that Intelligence and investigation might have been

brought under one law. That might have helped in combating terrorism.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please conclude.

SHRI M.V. MYSURA REDDY: Sir, I would like to remind one thing. It

cannot be controlled in a day, a month or a year. It requires some years

of dedicated work. (Contd. by 5p/hk)

HK/5p/8.10

SHRI M.V. MYSURA REDDY (CONTD.): Sir, as the House is aware, the

extremism is under control in Andhra Pradesh. The process was started

ten years back by me when I was the Home Minister. Now this State is

getting fruits. If such type of mechanism with some modification is

applied, then terrorism can be controlled in a few years.

(Ends)


325

SARDAR TARLOCHAN SINGH (HARYANA): Thank you, Mr. Deputy

Chairman, Sir. First of all, I associate myself with any move of the

Government to check terrorism. I come from the State and that

community which has been fighting forever against all invaders and

terrorists, and we have laid our lives any time if there is a call of the

nation. But I have some reservations about this Bill, which we are now

discussing. Sir, after the sad happening in Mumbai, people all over the

country and even NRIs abroad were feeling that India has not prepared

itself to face terrorism and to face the invaders who come from

neighbouring country. The Government should not make so much haste

in bringing this Bill without consulting the respective Chief Ministers,

avoiding Standing Committee on Personnel, Law and Justice. If it was

done, we could thoroughly discuss all clauses of the Bill. Sir, in this

year also, a Report was submitted by the Committee of Law and Justice

about this very topic and suggested certain measures. This Committee

also discussed the role of CBI. Sir, this new Agency being set up, we

should also know the fate of earlier outfits, especially the CBI. The CBI

has got the maximum respect from each State. Every State, whenever

there is any happening, transfers the case to the CBI. But now as per

the required strength of 4300 posts in CBI, more than 1000 posts are

lying vacant. The Government of India has even failed to provide

officers to CBI. How will they fill up posts in new agency and how long

will it take to select officers because this agency is going to be much

higher and bigger, which is going to all the States? With the experience

of CBI, we are worried as to what fate will be of this new agency, which

is now coming forth? Sir, we follow the Indian Constitution. We are a


326

federal country and we adhere to this principle that States have their

own powers. But every Act of the Government, for the last many

decades, is taking certain powers out of the States. With this Bill also

there is a fear, because there is a suo moto clause, that any time the

Government will take over anything in the name of terrorism. Already

with the new financial laws States are like becoming municipal

committees. They are not having those powers which States should

have. India being such a vast country, unless the States are fully

equipped we cannot have that strength at the national level. Sir, the

need of the day was that Government should have come out with a new

policy about our intelligence agencies. The Government should, first of

all, bring forward that Bill, not the Bill for investigation. Investigation

comes later on. The Government has not come out as to what was the

fault of our agencies in handling the terrorists' attacks. There are four

or five agencies. Nothing has come out yet as to what was the fault

and what the Government is going to do and how you are going to

improve your intelligence agencies. What is now the new policy for

RAW? That policy has to be told to us instead of this.

(Contd. by 5q/KSK)

KSK/8.15/5Q

SARDAR TARLOCHAN SINGH (CONTD): Secondly, Sir, with our own

experience, we have seen that whenever you give absolute power to the

Police, then there is always fear that a normal human being may suffer.

Sir, earlier in the debate, many people mentioned about POTA and

certain other Acts against minorities. Sir, everybody forgets what role

TADA and Central agency performed in Punjab. Mr. Sibal was


327

mentioning that hundreds of people were sent to jail under POTA in

Gujarat. Sir, 77,000 Sikhs were kept in jail without trial for years, and

nobody bothered. That case is never mentioned here. Thirty-six

thousand youths were killed in Punjab by the Police and they were

shown in false encounters. (Time-bell) Even the Supreme Court has

mentioned a case to the Human Rights Commission where in one

cremation ground, 1500 people were burnt on one day without any

record and it has taken six years to investigate that case. So,

thousands of people were killed in Punjab.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please, conclude.

SARDAR TARLOCHAN SINGH: Sir, I can give figures of those villages

where for last ten years, no marriage party has taken place because all

youths were killed. So, if you give power to Police like this, how will we

save our people? There is no clause as to who will monitor this

Agency? Is there any Parliamentary Committee to look after what is

going to happen?

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Tarlochan Singhji, please, conclude.

SARDAR TARLOCHAN SINGH: I will take only one minute. Then, Sir,

we have to prepare our Forces; we have to prepare our agencies to

fight. Sir, in my earlier speech in the House, I quoted Guru Gobind

Singhji. Now, I quote another "•Ö²Ö †Ö¾Ö Ûúß †Öî¬Ö ×®Ö¬ÖÖ®Öü ²Ö®Öê, †ŸÖ Æüß ¸üÞÖ ´Öë •ÖæôÖ

´ÖºÑþ" - every soldier should take a war like this, that whenever such

things happen, I will participate and I will die while fighting. Sir, unless

we prepare our Services, you cannot fight terrorism with this Bill. (Time-

bell). Terrorists are suicide attackers...


328

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please, Tarlochan Singhji, there are another

six Members to speak.

SARDAR TARLOCHAN SINGH: So, we must prepare the Forces to act

like this, and secondly, Sir, we should also tell the State Chief Ministers

that they should prepare their own people how to honour the martyrs.

During Kargil War, the then Defence Minister gave a statement that how

the States had honoured the martyrs. Maximum martyrs were from my

State, Haryana, and there he said that how Shri Om Prakash Chautala

took care of all the martyr families at that time should be followed by

each State. So, we must come out with such laws and prepare States

and the strength of the people to fight. And, last of all, Sir, there is one

quotation in Punjabi, "ÆüŸ£ÖÖ ²ÖÖ•Ö Ûú¸üÖ¸üµÖÖÑ, ²Öî¸üß ´ÖßŸÖ ®Ö ÆüÖêÞÖ", unless you do

something properly, you cannot make your enemies as your friends.

(Ends)

SHRI BHARATKUMAR RAUT (MAHARASHTRA): Sir, at the outset, let

me pay my sincere homage to all the martyrs and victims of the terrorist

attacks on Mumbai and all attacks before that. Sir, I am here to

express the grievances and the feelings of my fellow Mumbaikars who

have faced the nightmare of 62 hours starting from 26th November. I

come from Mumbai. So, I take it as my prime responsibility to express

the feelings, which my people have been telling me. I have received two

dozens letters during the last 24 hours. I wanted to read some of them,

but due to paucity of time, I cannot read them. They are in Marathi,

Hindi, English; from all walks of life and all the religions. People have

been expressing their solidarity and people have been expressing their

anguish and anger about what happened in the city. Sir, why are


329

people sending letters to my Party and me? This is a very-very sad

commentary on the ruling side. People have a feeling that the other

side, the ruling Party in the country and in my State, is inactive,

inefficient and not honest. Therefore, people are expressing faith in us.

Don't they know that we cannot do anything? We are not the ruling

Party. At least, for next six months, we will not be on the ruling side.

Even then, people are sending letters to us. This is, I think, the Home

Minister and the Prime Minister should take this very seriously.

(continued by 5r - gsp)

GSP-SCH/8.20/5R

SHRI BHARATKUMAR RAUT (CONTD.): Sir, with heavy heart, I wish to

express my solidarity and my support to the two Bills, namely, the

Unlawful Activities Prevention (Amendment) Bill, 2008, and, the National

Investigation Agency Bill, 2008. I am saying this with heavy heart

because though my party and myself support these Bill on the floor of

the House, it does not necessarily mean that we accept all the

provisions mentioned in these Bills. There are many reasons. There are

many areas of doubt that we have, but because the Home Minister has

given the assurance that he will come back in February if there is

anything required, and, I believe in his sincerity and transparency, we are

supporting it. I will not get into the details of the Bills. This is because

I am not a law expert and I am not a typical political leader who can

speak on anything and everything. So, I am not getting into the

provisions of the law, but, surely, I want to say something. Why I am

not taking too much time on provisions of the Bill is because, for me,

laws are only the instruments, they are only tools; they are weapons.


330

And, if these weapons are to be used effectively, you have to have

strong mind, strong hands and also the commitment to do something

for the society and the nation.

My observation is that this commitment, this honesty is lacking in

this Government. That is why, I have reservations about the Bill. Sir, I

have reservations about the Bill because I have seen from the reports

that came in after the incidents that the information about the attack

was coming in. Many people from various angles had given the

information about the possible attacks. That information had gone to

those hands that are supposed to know it. It had gone to the right

hands. But the bureaucracy and the intelligence agencies, on the one

hand, and, the political leadership, on the other hand, slept over it and

we had to face the nightmare.

Sir, do you have the will? I do not think that we have the will.

Sir, the Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus was first to be attacked. Many

passengers of the railway, many railway policemen became the victims

of the terrorist attack. The President of India, the Home Minister,

everybody went there but what happened to the people who run the

railways? Where were they? None of the Ministers handling the railway

could visit that place. This is because we do not consider Mumbai as

our city. There is a lack of will. I am sorry to say but there is a lack of

will. You are talking about the national security. Everybody is saying

that the national security should come first. The civil aviation sector, the

airports, I think, are the most vulnerable spots where these attacks can

happen.


331

While we are taking all the measures on the one hand, we are

handing over the ground-handling part of the Indian airports, particularly,

the Mumbai and Bengaluru Airports, to the private agencies, international

agencies, or, agencies that come from abroad. We have no control over

their recruitment. Those people will be controlling the ground-handling

department of the airports; from the airport to the aircraft, they will

handle everything. I think, we need to review the whole situation. (Time-

bell)

Sir, I have to make two more points. We should express our will

through various ways. Everybody is talking about the past. If Afzal

Guru can remain alive for so much of time, it means, we, ourselves

exhibit and declare that we are the soft targets. Why should that

happen?

Lastly, Sir, after the attack, so many heads rolled, our Home

Minister went, the Maharashtra Government went, but what happened to

the intelligence agencies. What happened to the Police Commissioner

of Mumbai, what happened to the Director General of

Police...(Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Raut, please conclude.

SHRI BHARATKUMAR RAUT: What happened to the intelligence

advisors? Why can't we do something against them? Unless we take

the holistic approach, these types of Bills -- though against my will --

will not suffice. Thank you.

(Ends)

(Followed by YSR-5S)


332

PSV-YSR/5S/8.25

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. Now Shri Mahmood A.

Madani. ..(Interruptions) ..

ÁÖß´ÖŸÖß •ÖµÖÖ ²Ö““Ö®Ö: ÃÖ¸ü, ´Öï †Ö¯ÖÛúß ‡•ÖÖ•ÖŸÖ ÃÖê ‹Ûú ²ÖÖŸÖ ²ÖÎß±ú ´Öë ÛúÆü®ÖÖ “ÖÖÆüŸÖß ÆæÑü…

ÁÖß ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ: ¾ÖÆü ŒµÖÖ Æîü?

ÁÖß´ÖŸÖß •ÖµÖÖ ²Ö““Ö®Ö: ÃÖ¸ü, †³Öß ´ÖÖ®µÖ¾Ö¸ü ®Öê ÛúÆüÖ *

SHRI BHARATKUMAR RAUT: Sir, I don't want to enter into this debate.

(Interruptions) But I want to set the record straight. (Interruptions) What do

you want? (Interruptions)

ÁÖß´ÖŸÖß •ÖµÖÖ ²Ö““Ö®Ö: *

ÁÖß ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ: ®ÖÆüà, ®ÖÆüà… †Ö¯Ö ‡ÃÖê ”ûÖê×›Íü‹… ...(¾µÖ¾Ö¬ÖÖ®Ö)... No, the debate will go

somewhere else. ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI BHARATKUMAR RAUT: No, Sir, if that goes on record, my explanation

should also go on record. (Interruptions) It is simple. When I am

saying..(Interruptions).. You cannot stop me like this. Then expunge that from

record. (Interruptions)

ÁÖß ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ: †Ö¯Ö ‡ÃÖ´Öë ´ÖŸÖ ¯Ö×›Íü‹… I have called next member.

SHRI BHARATKUMAR RAUT: If that goes on record, I have every right to

register my protest and set the record straight. It cannot go one way.

(Interruptions) It cannot go one way.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: It is irrelevant.

SHRIMATI JAYA BACHCHAN: Sir, don't put it on record. It was just a

comment.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: It is not going on record.

SHRI BHARATKUMAR RAUT: If it is expunged, then I thank you, Sir.

ÁÖß ˆ¯ÖÃÖ³ÖÖ¯Ö×ŸÖ: ÁÖß ´ÖÆü´Öæ¤ü ‹0 ´Ö¤ü®Öß…

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- * Not recorded.


333

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334

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5T/HMS-VKK/8.30

ÁÖß ´ÖÆü´Öæ¤ü ‹0 ´Ö¤ü®Öß (ÛÎú´ÖÖÝÖŸÖ) : µÖÆü ´Ö•Ö²ÖæŸÖ “Öß•Ö ÆüÖê®Öß “ÖÖ×Æü‹ †Öî¸ü ´Öï ŸÖÖê ÛúÆüŸÖÖ ÆæÓü ×Ûú

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²ÖÆãüŸÖ ¿Öã×ÛÎúµÖÖ…

(ÃÖ´ÖÖ¯ŸÖ)

ہم ۔ہيشکر کا آپ صاحب، نيرميچئ یڈپٹ: ) شيپرد اتر (یمدن ۔ےا محمود جناب

لئے، کے کرنے فائٹ سے رزميريٹ آج کہ ہے ہي موقع اور ںيہ جمع پر ہاںي لوگ

ريبغ کرنا نٹيويپر کو رزميريٹ ۔ںيہ گئے الئے بلس دو لئے کے نشنيويپر کے اس

ضرورت یک وچپريا ہولسٹک کيا ںيم اس ۔ہے ںينہ ممکن کے پروچيا ہولسٹک

کمار یاشون نئريس ہمارے ۔چاہتا ںينہ کرنا بات ادہيز بہت ںيم بارے اس ںيم ۔ہے

ںيہ یجنون ں،يہ منلسيکر لوگ ہي ۔ايک ذکر کا وںيجہاد نے یج یٹليج ادهر اور یج

۔ںيہ یجہاد ہم کہ ںيہ کرتے یدعو ہي خود ںيم بارے اپنے لوگ وہ ۔ںيہ پاگل اور

ں،يہ رہے کر سپورٹ یکٹليڈائر-ان کو ان ہم تو ايل مان یجہاد ںيانہ یبه نے ہم اگر

یجہاد وقت اس اگر ۔ہے کام مقدس بہت ہے، عبادت تو جہاد ۔حيصح نہ یکٹليڈائر

کے کر مخالفت یک رزميرٹيٹ کام، کا جہاد ہوں رہا کر ںيم ۔ہوں ںيم تو ہے یکوئ

نے ہندوستان ںيم ايدن ۔کے کر چال کيتحر ںيم ہندوستان پورے خالف کے اس اور

خالف کے رزميريٹ ںيم ايدن ۔تها ہوا ںينہ ںيکہ تک آج ںيم ايدن جو ہے ايک کام وہ

لوگ الکهوں پر وليل ماس کنيل ں،يہ ہوئے نارسيميس اور ںيہ یہوئ کانفرنسز یبڑ

کہ ہو یکهائ قسم نے انہوں کر اٹها یانگل یک شہادت اور ہوں گئے نکل پر سڑکوں


335

ںيکہ ںيم ايدن اور ہے ہوا ںيم بهارت شيد یاس صرف ہي ۔گے ںيلڑ سے مرزيريٹ ہم

ہي اور سکتا ہو ںينہ یکوئ یجہاد بڑا سے ہم ۔جہاد ںيہ رہے کر ہم تو ۔ہوا ںينہ

اسالمک ۔ےيجوڑ سے اسالم یہ اورنہ ےيبتائ مت یجہاد آپ کو ان ۔ںيہ مکار

ادهر اور یبه سے ادهر سنا، تبہمر نيت-دو ںيم بهر دن آج نے ںيم شبد ہي رسٹ،يريٹ

۔یبه سے

نٹسينڈميام کچهہ ںيم اس ۔ںيہ رہے آ کر لے الء نئے آپ کہ ہي بات یدوسر

صاحب راجہ۔یڈ سےيج ں،يہ کئے شيپ ہاںي نے دوستوں ہمارے جو ساتهہ، کے

ہونا ضرور سسٹم کا یاکاؤنٹبلٹ ںيم ساتهہ کن،يل ۔ہوں کرتا سپورٹ کو اس ںيم ۔نے

ہے، ہوتا وگيدرپ کا الء ہر کا قانون ہر کہ ہے ايگ کہا سنا، نے ںيم پہلے ۔ےچاہئ

یک کوشش یک اس چاہئے، ہونا ںينہ ہي ۔ہے بات کيٹه گا، جائے ہو یبه کا اس تو

ہي سوال کن،يل ۔گا جائے یبه لڑا خالف کے اس تو ہوگا وگيدرپ اگر اور یگ جائے

اور ہے زيچ یبڑ ہے قانون بڑا گے، ںيائبن قانون یکوئ آپ جب کہ ہے ہوتا دايپ

لئے کے اس ۔چاہئے یہون پن یفٹيس یبڑ تو ںيہ رہے جا لڑنے سے زيچ یبڑ جب

۔چاہئے ہونا انتظام ضرور کا یاکاؤنٹبلٹ

یسار بہت نے وںيساته سب ہمارے تو لئے کے کہنے کہ ہوں سمجهتا ںيم

کروں سماپت کر کہہ بات یآخر کيا ںيم بارے کے ۔اے۔یآئ۔نيا ۔ںيہ ید کہ ںيبات

بجاج راہل ہمارے ۔ہے یمتيق بہت ٹائم کا ہاؤس ونکہيک لونگا ںينہ ٹائم ادہيز ںيم ۔گا

اور چاہئے یہون زيچ مضبوط ہي ۔ہے یدالئ توجہ طرف یک اس یبه نے صاحب

شنلين بجائے کے یجنسيا شنيگ یسٹيانو شنلين نام کا اس کہ ہوں کہتا تو ںيم

کے یاس ۔چاہئے ہونا طاقتور اور مضبوط اسے اور چاہئے یہون یجنسيا یکورٹيس

۔ہيشکر بہت بہت ۔گا چاہوں اجازت سے آپ ںيم ساتهہ

"شد ختم"


336

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نے ںيم ۔ہے ايگ کہا بل نشنيويپر یکٹوٹيا فل انالء کو کيا ںيم جس ںيہ گئے الئے بل

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ہي اور قانون، اور کيا بعد کے اس اور" ٹاڈا" ،"پوٹا" کہ ايآ ںيم سمجهہ ہي ا،يآ ںينہ ںيم

ںيم بل دوسرے نے آپ شکل یک نشنيويپر ۔جائے پکڑا مجرم کہ ايگ ايال لئے اس قانون

کام ساتهہ کے ۔اے۔یپ۔وي سے سال 4 ديشا کہ ہوں سمجهتا ہي ںيم کنيل ہے، ید ضرور

یادتيز ساتهہ کے یمائنارٹ ںيم قانون کے" پوٹا" کہ ہوئے سمجهاتے ہي اور کرتے کرتے

کے ۔یپ۔جے۔یب پهر ديشا سيکانگر بعد کے واقعے کے یممبئ کنيل ہے، رہا ہو ظلم اور

رايم اور تها ہلکا" پوٹا" تمهارا کہ یہوئ شروع پر بات اس بحث ہاںي اور یگئ آ ںيم دباؤ

ساتهہ کے قانون ہر کہ ہوں چاہتا کہنا بات یک حق کے آپ ںيم ۔ہے مضبوط ادہيز قانون

منٹيپارل آج ںيم کہ ہے ہي تين ہے؟ ايک تين یک اس کہ چاہئے یہون یاکاؤنٹبلٹ اور تين

۔ہوں رہا لڑ زيسيک کے" پوٹا" تک آج کر لے سے 2001 کہ وںيک ہوں ٹهايب لئے اس ںيم

اور ںيہ چکے ہو کے سال 29 اور 27 وہ آج تهے، گئے ليج ںيم عمر یک سال 22 لوگ جو

شبہات و شک کيا ںيم قوم یريم آج باہر کے ہاؤس اس ۔ںيہ یہوئ ںينہ ںيضمانت یک ان

کہنا سے آپ ںيم لئے اس ہے؟ ہوا شروع قصہ سا کون ہي اب کہ ںيہ ہوئے ڈرے وہ ۔ںيہ

؟۔ہے وںيک ہوتا ہي کہ چاہئے ہونا یبه" کاز" عالوہ کے نشنيويپر ںيم اس کہ ہوں چاہتا

لوگ وانےيد اور باؤلے وہ پر طور ینيقي ۔کہئے مت یجہاد کو ان کہ ايگ کہا یابه

کچهہ جو ںيم یممبئ کہ ہے معلوم کو آپ ۔ہے ہوتا کچهہ چهےيپ کے کشنيا ہر کنيل ں،يہ

ہوکر پرموٹ تهے، مجرم جو یسپاہ وہ آج اور یآئ رپورٹ کرشنا یشر رپ اس تها، ہوا

گے؟ ںيپوچه سے کس آپ، گے ںيکر ايک ۔ںيہ کهڑے چهےيپ کے مسلمانوں ںيانہ

یک ان ۔ںيہ ہوئے کهڑے یبه آج والے پولس مجرم سب وہ ہوا، کچهہ جو ںيم گجرات

کے ہاؤس اس ںيم ۔جئےيد انيده یبه طرف یک ان جئے،يک شبہ تهوڑا یبه طرف

ںيم ملک اس آپ ۔کرئے دايپ سدبهاؤنا اور کرئے کوشش آپ کہ ہوں چاہتا کہنا عےيذر

نيچه کو یج یگانده سے ہم نے لوگوں جن ۔ےيکروائ پورا کو خواب کے یج یگانده


340

جانا لے سے وہاں ں،يہ چاہتے اٹهانا سے ہاںي یبه کو کيتحر یک یج یگانده وہ آج ا،يل

۔ںيہ چاہتے

یاپن کو آپ ںيم اور ہے ہي قتيحق ۔ہے رہا کر ہي پاکستان کہ ہے رہا جا ہي کہا

کے پاکستان اور رہا باہر کے ہندوستان سال 14 ںيم ۔ہوں چاہتا بتانا واقعات کے یزندگ

کہ ايک ںينہ پٹيکسيا یکبه نے انہوں ۔رہے ملتے سے مجهہ زيعز لوگ، سے بہت

ہي کو حکومت یک ان کو، ان کہ وںيک ہے سکتا ٹهہا کر بن ملک کولريس کيا ہندوستان

توڑا؟ وںيک کو ہندوستان ا،يبنا وںيک کو پاکستان نے انہوں کہ ہے ايگ ہو مشکل کرنا ثابت

فيچ ہے، بنتا یبه اسٹاف آف فيچ ہے، بنتا یبه صدر مسلمان جہاں ہے ملک وہ ہي

کا پاکستان ۔ہے یبه ٹهتايب ساتهہ کے آپ کر لے حقوق کے برابر اور ہے بنتا یبه جسٹس

کو ہندوستان نے اس کہئے، گروہ کيا کا وانوںيد اي کہئے ۔یآئ۔سيا۔یآئ طبقہ کيا

اور ںيہ چالتے مپيک ہاںي اپنے جو ںيہ لوگ وہ ہي ۔ايد کر انکار سے ماننے کولريس

ہے یبه ہاںي طبقہ کيا ۔ںيہ کهتےيد سے نگاہ یک شبہ و شک طرف یک ملک ہمارے

کولريس کو ہندوستان یبه آج طبقہ وہ نا،يچه سے ہم کو یج یگانده نے جس طبقہ وہ اور

ملک کولريس ہندوستان کہ ہے ہے سمجهتا وہ یبه آج وہ ۔ہے ںينہ اريت لئے کے بنانے

5-10 کو لوگوں ان نے اس ۔ہے ميعظ عوام یک ہاںي قوم، یک ہاںي کنيل ا،يگ بن سےيک

۔گا رہے بنتا اور بنا ملک کولريس ہي ۔ايد ںينہ بڑهنے آگے سے نٹيپرس

یاکاؤنٹبلٹ یک ان مجهے کہ سے صاحب منسٹر ہوم ہوں چاہتا کہنا ہي صرف ںيم

کنيل ہے، ںينہ شبہ یکوئ پر سرکار ۔اے۔یپ۔وي مجهے ۔ہے ںينہ شبہ پر تين یک ان پر،

ہے، یگتن یک وقت ں،يہ زيسيک وںيسيب پاس رےيم ۔ہوں چاہتا پوچهنا ضرور سے ان ںيم

تو ںيضمانت سے سال دو-دو سے، سال نيت نيت یک لوگوں ۔ہوں سکتا کر ںينہ انيب ںيم

پتہ کو آپ ہي ہے، حالت ايک پر گهروں کے ان آج ۔ںيہ یرہ کر ںينہ یسنوائ ںيعدالت ا،يک

۔ہے پتہ مجهے ہے، ںينہ

ايد نايب سايا نے صاحب انتولے کہ ايگ کہا ںيم بارے کے صاحب انتولے ہاںي سر،

اور ہوں چاہتا کہنا بات حق سے آپ ںيم کنيل ہوں، جانتا ںينہ جريپروس ادہيز ںيم ۔ہے

ں،يہ رہے سوچ یوہ لوگ تر ادہيز کے قوم یريم ۔یہوگ یانيب غلط تو کہوں، نہ بات حق


341

ںيم بجے 11 کو رات دن یاس کہ ہے ہي وجہ یک اس ۔ہے کہا نے صاحب انتولے کل جو

لوگوں کچهہ کہ ايگ کہا ہي بعد کے موت یک کرکرے منتيہ ديشہ کہ اکهيد پر ۔یو۔یٹ نے

ايگ کہا ہي اوپر کے ۔یو۔یٹ ہے؟ یہوت ںينہ وںيک یانکوائر یک اس ۔ںيمنائ اںيخوش نے

پوچها کر بال کلپنگ یک اس اي جائے، ايد کر بند کو نليچ کے ۔یو۔یٹ اس تو اي اب ۔ہے

ںيالئ قانون سخت اتنا کہ ںيہ کہتے ہي لوگ جو آج ۔تهے ہوئے خوش لوگ کون کہ جائے

نے کرکرے منتيہ جب کہ ہے ہيہوتا کنيل ں،يہ تےيل ںينہ نام جئے،يد دبا کو قوم اس کہ

اوپر کے ديشہ اس اور یگئ مچ پکار خيچ پڑے، اچک تو ا،يدکها رخ دوسرا کا ريتصو

لوگوں جن اور ايگ ہو قربان پر ہندوستان وہ شاباش کنيل گئے، لگائے الزام سےيا سےيا

۔ہے قوت یک ہندوستان یہي ۔ايد چهوڑ کر بنا بونا کو ان تهے، لگائے الزام پر اس نے

ہونے نہ سايا سے صورت یکس کو اس ں،يہ رہے ال آپ بل جو کہ گا چاہوں ہي ںيم

ںيکہ کہ ہو نہ سايا ںيکہ اور کهايد ںيم پوٹا نے ہم جو کها،يد ںيم ٹاڈا نے ہم جو جئے،يد

یسيا تو ۔ںيجائ ہو شروع اںيزندگ یک شبہ و شک پهر جائے، ہو شروع شنينئيليا پهر

۔ہے یضرور یبه تين پر اس ہے، یک کوشش نے آپ ںيبندش

ہاؤس اس سے آپ ںيم ہے، کوشش یک بنانے یجنسيا یدوسر یک آپ تک جہاں

شنيٹيزيپرير کے یمائنارٹ لئے کے بنانے بہتر کو اس کہ گا کروں گزارش عےيذر کے

نيت ۔یآئ۔یب۔یس ں،يہ یجنسيا یبه یجتن پاس کے آپ سےيج ہو، نہ سايا ۔ےيبڑهائ کو

یک یکورٹيس یک آپ اور ںينہ یبه یکوئ ںيم اس ہے، راء سےيج یدوسر مسلمان، عدد

آپ جب کم سے کم تو ۔ہے ںينہ مسلمان یبه کيا ںيم اس ہے افسوس ہے، یسريت جو

ايسون کو جس تها، خواب جو کا یگانده اندرا تو ں،يہ رہے بنا یجنسيا شنلين ہي جو

سے دس کہ ہے پڑها یبه ںيم اخباروں نے ںيم کو جن اور ہے کہا یبه نے یج یگانده

کرتا درخواست سے آپ عےيذر کے ہاؤس اس ںيم ،یہوگ ینمائندگ یک نٹيپرس پندرہ

اور ںيقوم بس ںيم اس ہو، پيش کا اس جو کہ جائے یک توجہ یک اس ںيم اس کہ ہوں

۔ہو اندازہ کا تياہم یاسک اور یشئنس یفيا یک اس سے جس ں،يآئ اںيبرادر سب

ہيشکر بہت بہت کنيل ا،يل لے کا آپ وقت ہوں، گزار شکر اور مشکور بہت ںيم

۔جناب کا، آپ


342

"شد ختم"

SHRI SHARAD ANANTRAO JOSHI (MAHARASHTRA): Thank you, Mr.

Deputy Chairman, Sir, for allowing me to take part in this debate which

was, for a long time, a battle between the barristers and, later on,

between the luminaries of law. I am only a peasant activist, but my

special qualifications for taking part in this debate was that as early as in

1986, I was detained under the then National Security Act which was the

predecessor of both TADA and POTA! And a former Chief Minister, who

is now a member of the Cabinet, had, actually, levelled a charge of

waging war against the lawfully established State for the mere fact that I

reclaimed remunerative prices for cotton for the farmers of India. The

time is changed, Sir, and now, the same people are talking in an entirely

different language. I am, of course, supporting both the NIA and the

UAPA Bills because the Government or the ruling party thinks that we

need to give a show of solidarity and the Opposition parties have also

agreed with that. I support the NIA, and also the UAPA. But my inner

voice and my conscience howls out that what I am doing is entirely

wrong, that what the Government should have prepared was, definitely,

as Shri Rajeev Chandrasekhar said, a very strong anti-terrorism or

counter-terrorism Act. If you think that the POTA was mistaken because

it had a communal bias, you could correct that communal bias. But,

you can't abdicate the responsibility of establishing law and order in the

country. Sir, this scene we have seen earlier in the country; in 1962, at

the end of one bout of bhaism, in 'Hindi-Chini bhai-bhai', we, the nation

faced a humiliation.

(Contd. by TMV/5W)


343

-MKS-TMV-DS/5W/8.40

SHRI SHARAD ANANTRAO JOSHI (CONTD.): At that time, the

Defence Minister had literally to be shooed out--this time we had a very

gentleman Home Minister who resigned on his own--and a new Defence

Minister had to be called from Maharashtra and our old Home Minister

had to go back to Maharashtra. Now, we have got a new Home

Minister, who was the Finance Minister, whose possible qualifications are

that he comes from a region with a geographical proximity with terrorist

outfits like the LTTE.

I would like to make some bullet points because of shortage of

time. As regards the question of human rights, even the Prime Minister

said that there had to be some kind of an exception made to the rule of

human rights. I would like to take the position that anybody who takes

arms against a lawfully established State abdicates his right to any claim

to human rights and he can, at the best, claim to be treated under the

Geneva Convention applicable only to prisoners of war. Therefore, all

talks of human rights, etc., are irrelevant, as far as dealing with terrorists

is concerned.

I would like to make one more point. We have the new ULAPA

which is certainly an improvement of the POTA, in the sense that POTA

did not have the advantage of 26th November. The drafters of this Bill

definitely have the advantage and, therefore, they have plagiarised from

POTA, but expanded the definition to include some of the more recent

experiences. It still remains essentially like a general paper on the

battles fought in the past. We are still trying to fight the battle with

terrorism which has already happened. We are not looking forward to


344

what is going to happen and the Bill does not provide for it at all. I

don't want to look like a prophet. But I am warning the entire House

that 20th January when the new President takes over charge in the

United States and if he tries anything like withdrawal of forces from Iraq

and Afghanistan, then the global terrorists in a frenzy of victory are going

to launch a massive campaign of terrorism all throughout the country,

and we are still not prepared at all. We don't know what kind of shape

it will take. Therefore, I would say that this Bill is good as far as it goes.

It does not go much forward; it looks backward; it does not look

forward. I hope the new Home Minister will prepare India to face the

calamities that I expect will happen soon after the 20th January, that is

just about 20 days' time. Thank you.

(Ends)

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ü›üÖ. ‹ê•ÖÖ•Ö †»Öß : ´ÖÆüÖê¤üµÖ, ‡ÃÖ “Öß•Ö ÛúÖê ¯Öæ”û Ûú¸ü clear Ûú¸ü ×»ÖµÖÖ •ÖÖ‹, ŸÖÖ×Ûú ‹Ûú ²ÖÆãüŸÖ

²Ö›Íüß community Ûêú ²Öß“Ö •ÖÖê ²Ö¤üÝÖã´ÖÖ®Öß Æãü‡Ô Æîü, ¾ÖÆü ¤æü¸ü ÆüÖê •ÖÖ‹… ¿Öã×ÛÎúµÖÖ… (ÃÖ´ÖÖ¯ŸÖ)

سے global terrorism لوگ ہم سے طرح جس سر، : )بہار (یعل اعجاز ڈاکٹر

۔ںيہ شانيپر یبه سے domestic terrorism لوگ ہم سے طرح یاس ں،يہ شانيپر

ان اور رہے ہوتے دهماکے بم تہاں جہاں ںيم ملک پورے سے سال چار نيت پچهلے

جوڑ کو تار کے اس ںيم ملک پورے اور ايگ ايبنا نشانہ کو لوگوں خاص کيا ںيم

فاش راز کچهہ عےيذر کے شنيگ یسٹيانو نے افسر کيا چيب یاس ۔ايگ ايد دکها کر

تهے افسر وہ کنيل ،یگ کرے عدالت تو صلہيف ہي ہے؟ غلط اي ہے حيصح وہ ۔ايک

تو نہ وہ تهے، افسر وہ ۔تهے صاحب سالسکر اي صاحب آمٹے اي صاحب کرکرے

کے یجات یريم اي تهے دار رشتہ رےيم نہ تهے، والے ماننے کے مذہب رےيم

ادهر وہ ںيم نبهانے یوٹيڈ یاپن اور تهے افسر یساہس اور مانداريا کيا وہ تهے،

۔یگئ ہو موت یک ان ںيم کياٹ یممبئ ۔تهے کهتےيد ںينہ ادهر

ہے؟ رہا لے ںينہ نام یکوئ کا کانسٹبل کيا اس: راؤ ہنومنت ۔یو یشر

کہنا ہي رايم ۔ہے یگئ جان ايدن یسار ں،يہ رہے لے نام لوگ سب :یعل اعجاز ڈاکٹر

کے واد آتنک وہ ںيکہ کہ ہے یہر گونج بات ہي ںيم ذہن کے مسلمانوں کہ ہے

ہي کہ چاہئے کو سرکار لئے اس ۔ںيگئےہ ہو ںينہ تو شکار کے سازش یکس بجائے


348

ںيم ا،يد انيب کيا نے صاحب انتولے کل ۔کرے دور کو اس وہ ہے، وژنيکنف جو

تک ہاںي ہوا، بوال بہت پر انيب کے ان ۔کهايد ںيم پروںيپ ں،ينہ سنا انيب کا ان نے

ہوئے، مانتے کو بات یک ان اگر ۔جهاڑا پلڑا سے اس یبه نے یپارٹ سيرکانگ کہ

ہوئے مانتے کو بات یک ان اگر تهے، رہے بول بات یک ذہن کے مسلمانوں وہ

حملہ یواد آتنک کہ یآئ کال کو ان وقت جس کہ جائے ہو ٹيگ یسٹيانو اتنا صرف

تهے، سربراہ کيا وہ ا،ته ايد کال کو ان نے کس تهے؟ رہے کر ايک وہ ہے، ايگ ہو

تم جاؤ، جگہ فالں تم کہ تها کرنا ليڈ کو ان تها، ںينہ یضرور جانا کو ان جگہ ہر

کے ان نے جنہوں تهے، لوگ کون وہ کنيل جاؤ، جگہ فالں تم اور جاؤ جگہ فالں

provoke پہنچ جگہ یسيا اور ہوئے سوار ںيم یگاڑ یہ کيا افسر نوںيت وہ کہ ايک

یک وقت(--- تها پروگرام کا جانے ںينہ اي تها ںينہ جانا ديشا وک ان جہاں گئے،

۔گئے وہ کنيل ---)یگهنٹ

وہ تو ں،يته یرہ مل اںيدهمک کچهہ سے پہلے کو ان کہ ہے ہي زيچ یسريت

confusion ںيبات یسار ہي ۔ںيته یرہ مل اںيدهمک کو ان سے جن تهے، لوگ کون

forensic report یک ان ہے، کہاں رپورٹ یک مارٹم پوسٹ کے ان ۔ںيہ یکرت دايپ

یہون magisterial enquiry یک ان سے حساب کے نوليا پولس مہاراشٹر ۔ہے کہاں

،یپتن یک ان ۔ہے کہاں رپورٹ یک اس تو ،یہوئ اگر ،یہوئ ںينہ اي یہوئ وہ چاہئے،

بات کچهہ ايک کہ جائے پوچها سے ان ا،يک برداشت کو صدمے سارے نے جنہوں

کہ ںيہ یجانت ںيبات یسار وہ ہے، یہوت ہمراز یک شوہر اپنے یويب ہر کہ وںيک ،یهت

پوچها ساتهہ کے حفاظت سے ان ---)یگهنٹ یک وقت(--- ہے رہا ہو ايک ساتهہ کے اس

۔ہوا ايک کہ جائے

۔جئےيک کنکلوڈ آپ :یپت سبها اپ یشر

بہت کيا تاکہ جائے، ايل کر کلئر کر پوچهہ کو زيچ اس مہودے، :یعل اعجاز ڈاکٹر

۔ہيشکر ۔جائے ہو دور وہ ہے، یہوئ یبدگمان جو چيب کے یونٹيکم یبڑ


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"شد ختم"

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THE MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM): Mr.

Deputy Chairman, Sir, I am grateful to the hon. Members who have

participated in this discussion. Everybody has supported the idea

behind the two Bills. On the UPA side, it is a whole-hearted and an

unconditional support. The BJP has given a critical support. The Left

has given a qualified support. My friend, Shri Surinder, has given a

passionate support to the Bill. So, in a sense, everybody supports the

idea, although there are reservations about one or two aspects of the

two Bills. As I said, I respect every reservation. I will try to answer

them, though my friends, Shri Kapil Sibal, Shri Ashwani Kumar, Dr.

Abhishek Singhvi and others, have answered these objections. I will

also try to answer these objections to the best of my ability. But

notwithstanding reservations and our answers to them, at the end of the


350

day, my appeal is, let us vote these two Bills unanimously so that a

clear message goes to the people of India that Parliament of India is

vigilant and will uphold the sovereignty, liberty and security of the people

of India. At the end of the day, we should not appear to be a divided

House. We should not speak in different voices. We have exchanged

our views. We have understood each other. But at the end of the day,

we must vote these two Bills unanimously.

Sir, let me once again clarify a few aspects which, apparently,

bother people's minds, including the last remark made by Shri Amar

Singh. The Indian jurisprudence is based on a fundamental principle

that every man is presumed innocent until proved guilty. However

heinous the crime, that principle is an unalterable principle. And, I would

refer presently to what the Chief Justice of India said a few days ago.

When there is a terrorist crime and terrorists, or, their accomplices and

abettors of terrorists, are apprehended, the people expect the

Government to be able to investigate the offences efficiently and quickly,

bring the culprits before a court and punish them swiftly.

(Continued by 5Z)

TDB/5Z/8.55

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM (CONTD.) If the process of investigation, trial

and punishment drags for 10 or 12 or 13 years, and at the end, some

are punished, many are not punished, and even the punishment does

not turn out to be a deterrent punishment, the people will not have faith

in the criminal justice system to deliver justice, nor will they have faith in

the Government's ability to protect the liberty and the security of the

people. So, the three main objectives of the two Bills are, speedy and


351

efficient investigation, fair and speedy trial and deterrent punishment. If

we keep these three objectives in mind, these two Bills fall in place. But,

before I explain the contents of the Bills, I wish to say one other thing.

TADA, POTA, MCOCA in a State, UAPA here, these are not preventive

laws. These are punitive laws. These laws spring into action only after

the crime is committed or when an attempt is made to commit a crime

or in one or two cases, preparation is made to commit a crime. The

jehadi terrorist is not deterred by these laws. He is ready to die; he is

prepared to kill. If we believe that POTA will deter a jehadi terrorist, we

are living in a make-believe world. No punitive law deters the terrorists.

The punitive law is helpful only to punish the terrorists. So, I don't agree

with the theory put forward by one or two hon. Members that a strong

law will deter the terrorists. Strong law deters ordinary people from

straying into crime, or, even habitual criminals from committing blatant

crimes. But, these laws don't deter a jehadi terrorist. He is prepared to

die. This 20-year old boy, not even a full-blown man, who has been

apprehended in Mumbai came here prepared to die. And, according to a

statement, he was prepared to die because somebody promised him

one-and-a-half lakh Pakistani rupees to take care of his family.

Therefore, Sir, do these two Bills meet these three objectives? First,

speedy investigation. The NIA, I respectfully submit, meets the objective.

We set up an Agency. We confine its jurisdiction only to eight Acts, no

more. Eight Acts and no more. It is not like the CBI, it is not like the

FBI. It is confined to eight Acts, and the common threat that runs

through the eight Acts is terror and terrorism. These are eight Acts. We

will keep it as a lean and a fit agency. We will staff it by young energetic


352

officers who are well-versed in investigation, who have a proven track

record in investigation, and we will try the case in a Special Court. The

Chief Justice will nominate the Special Judge. The presiding officer of

the Special Court will continue with the trial, notwithstanding that he

reaches the age of superannuation, so that he will complete the trial of

the case by a date to be specified, if he crosses the age of

superannuation. So, the National Investigation Agency Bill, in my view,

meets the objective of a speedy investigation of the case. Now, are we

encroaching upon the States' powers? I respectfully submit, we are not.

The Act has been carefully drafted. What we say is, the FIR will be filed

in a police station; it will be transmitted to the State Government, who

shall forthwith send it to the Central Government; the Central

Government, may, having regard to the gravity of the offence and other

relevant factors, direct that the NIA should investigate the case.

(Contd. by 6A-kgg)

kgg/6a/9.00

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM (contd.): All other cases will remain with the

State agencies. I have no plans to take on hundreds of cases. My

device is that there should be no cases of terrorism to be investigated. If

there are cases of terrorism and terrorist crimes to be investigated, it is

not my intention to take on everything under the NIA. We will only take

the gravest cases which have inter-State or international ramifications.

The rest will be left to the State agencies.

When we take on a case, we expect the State agencies to

cooperate with the NIA. The NIA, in turn, can ask the State agencies to

associate with the investigation. The NIA can also, after some time,


353

having regard to the gravity, return the case to the State agencies

saying, 'This is not necessary for me to investigate, you please continue

the investigation.' So, this is not encroaching upon the States'

autonomy; it is respecting the States' autonomy and, only to the extent

necessary, the NIA takes over. But, I believe, more often than not, the

NIA will ask the State agencies to associate to itself. The problem with

the amendment proposed by a section in this House to divide the

Schedule into two is, if you put the Unlawful Activities Act in the Second

Schedule and mandate association of the State agency, there could be

cases---let me not talk about the past---where the local police is

involved with the terrorist crime and there is a cover up, and, therefore,

it might hamper the investigation rather than assist an investigation.

There have been cases in the past. We know those cases; I shall not

name them for fear of provoking another debate. There could be cases

where the local police could be involved in a cover up of the terrorist

act.

Therefore, I think, what we have done is a correct thing. I think,

the structure that I have explained is a correct structure, and I request

the hon. Members to kindly support the NIA Bill. Sir, all other provisions

of this Bill are normal standard provisions. An appeal will lie to a division

bench, and the appeal should be disposed of within three months. There

is no other unusual provision in this Bill. Nobody has brought any

unusual provisions. Therefore, the NIA Bill deserves universal support.

(Interruptions) Please, I am not yielding. Let me complete and at the end

I will answer all the questions.


354

As far as the UAPA is concerned, as I said, there is a section

which believes that POTA must be brought back. Another section,

including within the UPA, strongly believes that POTA cannot be brought

back under any circumstances. Someone pointed out that I was the

author of TADA. I was the author of TADA too, I agree. But, I was also

part of the Government which repealed TADA. I was also part of the

Government which repealed TADA because we found that TADA would

be misused. We did not renew TADA. POTA was brought through a

Joint Session of Parliament, not by a great consensus. POTA was

brought by a razor-thin majority in a Joint Session of Parliament. The

new Government decided to repeal POTA. Now, we are not going into

the wisdom of bringing the law or the wisdom of repealing the law. In

view of the very strong opinions on the subject, we decided that the

best course is not to bring back POTA in any form. So, we have the

UAPA. We took to UAPA, we worked on the UAPA, and we have added

provisions which, I believe, strengthen the trial and the prosecution, and

punishment of the offence. I think, the provisions that we have added

are sufficiently strong, sufficiently stringent, without trampling upon the

fundamental human rights and without violating the very fundamental

principle that even the offender involved in the most heinous crime is

entitled to a fair trial with substantive due processes.

Now, what have we done on this Bill? We have defined the

terrorist act lifting it from the universal definition which is adopted in the

United Nations Resolution. We have included funding of terrorism as

crime, we have included organising a terrorist camp as crime, and we


355

have included recruiting any person for committing a terrorist act as

crime.

(Contd. by 6b)

KLS/6B-9.05

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM (CONTD): We have placed restrictions on the

bail provision. Section 167 provides for 15, 90 and 60 days. What we

have done is that we have made 30,90 and 90 days. Since there is no

amendment proposed to that I assume everybody has accepted it. Then

we have said -- this is some controversy here -- if it is not possible to

complete the investigation within the said period of 90 days, the court

may if it is satisfied with the report of the Public Prosecutor indicating

the progress of the investigation and the specific reasons for the

detention of the accused beyond the said period, extend the said period

by up to 180 days. This was not in POTA, look at the POTA provision,

POTA provision is a very different provision. The POTA provision said

that you shall go beyond 90 days. Here we have given the power to the

court, the court may if it is satisfied. Secondly, the POTA provision said,

go beyond 90 days, it did not put a cap. Here we have put a cap and

said, 'cannot go beyond 180 days'. We are trying to strike a balance.

There will be cases, of all cases, there will be some cases where the

charge-sheet cannot be filed in 90 days, it might require 100 days, it

might require 110, but if the investigation has progressed and there are

good reasons why the prosecuting agency requires 10 days more or 15

days more, I mean, the court should have the power to consider every

thing and grant them ten days. Then we have said that in a bail

application the prosecutor shall be heard, I do not think anyone can


356

complain about that provisions, which means ex parte order cannot be

given and prosecutor must be given a right to say what he wants to

say. And then we have said that if on a perusal of case diary or on a

report made under Section 173, the court has reason to believe that the

accusation is prima facie true, only in those cases the bail is refused.

Now the bail is refused under the ordinary criminal law. In case of a

murder, invariably bail is refused, bail is never granted, just because the

trial goes on for three years, no one says that a person accused of

murder should have a right to bail. That is the matter which the court

has to weigh having regard to the case diary and the investigation

report, the court will weigh the matter and say that you are accused of

murder but having looked at the case diary and the report I am refusing

bail. So, such an offender has to remain in jail until the trial is over.

That is an unusual provision. But the court may come to the opposite

conclusion, having perused the case diary and the report, although you

are accused of murder, I will let you out on bail subject to the following

conditions, you shall stay here, shall report to the police station, you

shall provide surety. These are not unusual provisions. I think some

people thought that refusing bail is an unusual provision, but it is not.

For heinous crimes, even today bail is refused until the case is

completely tried and the court reaches its conclusions. So, there is

nothing unusual about it. Then, Sir, we have provided that a rebuttable

presumption, what is in common language called an adverse inference

can be drawn in certain cases. Now what are the cases that we have

provided, where arms, explosives, or other substances were recovered

from the possession of the accused and there is a reason to believe that


357

such an arm or explosives were used in the commission of the offence?

Where the very arms or where the very explosives which are used in the

commission are recovered from the accused, that is one circumstance,

the second circumstance is where it is proved through the evidence of

an expert that fingerprints of the accused or rather definite evidence

such as DNA, bloodstains, that is not there but that is a definite

evidence, suggesting the involvement of the accused in the offence were

found where - at the site of the offence, on the scene of the crime, not

in his house, not in the village, not a hundred miles away, if you find

fingerprints, bloodstains, DNA evidence at the site of the crime, in these

two circumstances we say the court will draw a rebuttable presumption

and under Section 4 of the Evidence Act, it is a presumption only until

the contrary is proved.

(Contd by 6C)

SSS/6C/9.10

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM (CONTD.): Why are we saying this? It is

because in most cases, in criminal law, the accused can remain silent.

He need not go into the box. He need not let in any evidence at all.

What we are doing here is, in a terrorist crime, in one or two of these

circumstances which are explained, one, where arms and explosives are

recovered from the possession of the accused or where finger prints or

other definitive evidence are recovered from the crime scene, we will

draw this presumption, but you are at liberty to disprove this fact and,

therefore, the court will, then, have to accept that it is disproved. In this

case alone, we say an adverse inference should be drawn. This is not

an unusual provision. This is an over-rule of evidence. Going back to


358

the Evidence Act which, I think, if I remember right, my memories are

right, 1872 rule of evidence has been there. It is not an unusual rule of

evidence at all. Finally, Sir, we have incorporated a very salutary

provision. To the best of our knowledge -- I don't know, I may be

corrected by the Law Minister or the Law Secretary later -- it is the first

time we are introducing this. In a prosecution under the UAPA, now, it

is the executive Government which registers the case to a police officer.

It is the executive Government which investigates the case through an

investigating agency, namely, the police department. It is the executive

Government which sanctions under section 45. Therefore, there is a fear

that a vindictive or a wrong executive Government could register a case,

investigate and sanction prosecution. There is a fear. Maybe, it is not a

fear that is entirely justified but you can't say that it is entirely unjustified.

So, what are we doing? The executive Government can register the

case because no one else can register a case. The executive

Government, through its agency, can investigate the case. But, before

sanction is granted under 45 (1) we are interposing an independent

authority which will review the entire evidence, gathered in the

investigation and then make a recommendation whether this is a fit case

of prosecution. So, here, we are bringing a filter, a buffer, an

independent authority who has to review the entire evidence that is

gathered and, then, make a recommendation to the State Government

or the Central Government, as the case may be, a fit case for sanction.

I think, this is a very salutary safeguard. All sections of the House

should welcome it. This is a biggest buffer against arbitrariness which

many Members spoke about. Sir, these are the features in the Bill. I


359

know that Surinder asked about why you are including 489 E. Well, I

think, Arun had the answer. I told you the answer. 489 A to 489 E are

one part of the whole chapter, which is dealing with counterfeit currency

notes. You cannot omit that alone. Nobody is going to be charged

with an offence of only 489 E. A man is charged with 489 E is most

likely to be charged with the whole set of offences and all of them are

either life imprisonment or imprisonment up to ten years. I don't think

that is a major point. It is very unlikely that anybody will be charged

with only 489 E. It is possible. Theoretically, yes, but when the

sanction comes, somebody will throw it out. An independent authority

will throw it out and say that this is not a case to be...

SHRI S. S. AHLUWALIA: That will not go to sanction.

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: It will be for any prosecution under UAPA.

SHRI S. S. AHLUWALIA: For a Rs. 100 fine, why will it go to the

sanctioning authority? If the punishment is for more than seven years,

then, only it will go to the sanctioning authority. The law is like that; you

know that.

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Please understand. If it is an offence under

UAPA, today, we have said that under section 45, sanction is required. If

it is not an offence under UAPA, if it is an offence under any other Act,

the Scheduled Act we will have to look at the sanctioning provision of

that Act. Let us assume for the sake of argument that 489 E does not

require a sanction. It will be prosecuted in a court and the court can

impose a maximum punishment of Rs. 100. What is the earth-shaking

event that happens if somebody is prosecuted under 489 E and is

punished for Rs. 100? Don't detract from the gravity of the situation


360

that we are talking about. Finally, Sir, there is a question, 'why was the

Bill not referred to the Standing Committee?'

(Contd. by NBR/6D)

-SSS/NBR-LT/6D/9.15.

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM (CONTD.): I think, the all-party meeting on 30th

November resolved that we should quickly pass the laws which are

required for investigation and to strengthen the laws. That is why this

meeting took place on 30th November. We have worked round the clock

to draft this Bill. We have consulted the major political formations in this

House and we have brought forward this Bill. If it would have gone to

the Standing Committee we would not have this law until next February

or, I don't know, even next July. Therefore, it is very necessary and the

hon. Speaker, in his wisdom, in his discretion, decided that it need not

go to the Standing Committee.

SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: What do you mean when you say that you

will revisit it?

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: No, no. What I said is that if anybody has

got reservations, I take note of the reservations. We will see how this

law works over the next 3-4 months. If any of these reservations on the

part of those who say the law is not strong enough or reservations on

the part of those who say that the law is an encroachment, we can

revisit the subject in 3 or 4 months. But, at the moment, what we need

is to send a strong message to the country that we are united. We are

acting with unity of purpose. We are making law. We are setting up an

agency and we are determined to bring to book any terrorist who

commits a terrorist crime. Therefore, my earnest appeal to all sections


361

of the House is please do not press your amendments. I have taken

note of your amendments. I will try to explain.

Sir, in fact, if I can quickly go through the amendments, now, if

the suo motu power is deleted, then we go back to the CBI provision.

Then, what is the difference between the NIA and the CBI? Therefore,

the suo motu provision cannot be deleted. If the suo motu power for

the NIA is not to be there, we go back to the CBI and Section 6 of the

DSPE. So, there is no difference. Therefore, suo motu provision cannot

be deleted.

Then, if the First Schedule is to split, I have told you the problem.

If you put one Act in the Second Schedule and if, God forbid, there is a

terrorist case in which the local police is trying to cover up that crime,

then, that crime will never be investigated. Therefore, the Schedule

cannot be split.

Then, Sir, there are four amendments given by my friend, Mr.

Sitaram Yechury. I think, he must have drafted them in great haste,

because, if I accept any of these amendments, the sentence does not

read as a complete sentence. I can show it to you.

SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: I have given notice for amendments.

Redrafting has been done by the Secretariat.

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: The sentence does not read as a complete

sentence. For example, if the word 'shall' is replaced with the word

'can' and if you delete the last fourteen words, the sentence does not

even read as a sentence. But, I don't think that these are material.

And, finally, Mr. Raja has said that the word 'presumption' must

be deleted. I will explain. The presumption is drawn only under two


362

extraordinary circumstances -- where a fingerprint is found or DNA

evidence is found or arms or explosives are recovered from the

possession of the accused. In such a case, I think, it is wise for the

court to draw the presumption and oblige the accused to go into the

box and disprove the case, rather than say, 'you can remain silent and I

will then apply the test of beyond reasonable doubt.'

So, I think, Sir, all the amendments should not be pressed now.

We should pass the Bill unanimously. Eternal vigilance is the price of

liberty. People are looking at us. As I speak today, people are

watching at us. People will watch us on television tomorrow. People are

asking, 'Is the Parliament of India the sentinel on TV? Is the Parliament

of India an appropriate sentinel to guard our liberty? We must send a

message that we are united, both in purpose and in action and we will

stand as a sentinel and guard the liberty and security of the people of

this country. Thank you. (Ends)

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, we shall, first, take up the National

Investigation Agency Bill, 2008. The question is:

That the Bill to constitute an investigation agency at the national level to investigate and prosecute offences affecting the sovereignty, security and integrity of India, Security of State, friendly relations with foreign States and offences under Acts enacted to implement international treaties, agreements, conventions and resolutions of the United National, its agencies and other international organisations and for matters connected therewith or incidents thereto, as passed by Lok Sabha, be taken into consideration.



363

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, we shall take up clause-by-clause



MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, we shall take up Clause 6. There are

two amendments (Nos. 1 and 2) by Dr. Maitreyan.

CLAUSE - 6 : Investigation of Scheduled Offences

DR. V. MAITREYAN (TAMIL NADU): Sir, I move:

That at page 3, line 16 to 19, be deleted.

That at page 3, line 20, the words, bracket and figure "sub-section

(5)", be deleted.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, I shall now put amendment (Nos. 1

and 2) to vote:

Amendment Nos. 1 and 2 were negatived. Clause 6 was added to the Bill.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, we shall take up Clause 7. There is

one amendment (No. 3) by Shri Sitaram Yechury and Shri D. Raja.

SHRI SITARAM YECHURY (WEST BENGAL): Sir, with your permission,

may I make one observation?

These two amendments to clause 7 and 7(a) become relevant only

if the split in the Schedule is approved. What I would suggest to you is,

if this is not approved, those two become infructuous. So, take the

Schedule first. (CONTD. BY USY "6E")

-NBR-USY/VP/5e&5f/9.20& 9.25

SHRI SITARAM YECHURY (CONTD.): What I mean to say is that if the

split of the Schedule is not adopted, then clauses 7 and 7(a) become

infructuous. There is no point in going through voting before this.


364

(Interruptions) May I explain to you, Sir? Amendment to clause 7,

which I moved, says, "While investigating any offence under the First

Schedule of this Act..." Now, without separating the Schedules into the

First Schedule and the Second Schedule, this amendment is

meaningless. New clause 7(a) will be meaningful only if this House

approves the split in the Schedule into the First Schedule and the

Second Schedule. If the House does not approve of this split, then,

clauses 7 and 7(a) automatically becomes infructuous. I would, therefore,

plead with you that you put this amendment to the Schedule to vote.

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, Sitaramji is asking to put the

amendment No. 5 first. If the Schedule is split, then, we will see;

otherwise, that amendment is not carried. So, Sir, put amendment No.

5 first. There is no problem.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: We shall now take up the Schedule first.

The Schedule stands part of the Bill. There is one amendment no. 5 by

Shri Sitaram Yechury.

SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: Sir, I move:

That at page 9, for the existing Schedule, the following be substituted, namely, -

THE FIRST SCHEDULE

The Atomic Energy Act, 1962 (33 of 1962);

The Anti-Hijacking Act, 1982 (65 of 1982);

The Suppression of Unlawful Acts Against Safety of Civil Aviation Act,

1982 (66 of 1982);


365

The SAARC Convention on (Suppression of Terrorism) Act, 1993 (36

of 1993);

The Suppression of Unlawful Acts Against Safety of Maritime

Navigation and Fixed Platforms on Continental Shelf Act, 2002

(69 of 2002);

The Weapons of Mass Destruction and their Delivery Systems

(Prohibition of Unlawful Activities) Act, 2005 (21 of 2005)

THE SECOND SCHEDULE

The Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Act, 1967 (37 of 1967); The Offences under -

Chapter VI of the Indian Penal Code [sections 121 to 130 (both

inclusive)];

Sections 489-A to 489-E (both inclusive) of the Indian Penal

Code".

Amendment was negatived.

(Contd. by 6g -- pb

PB-SKC-HK/9.30, 9.35& 9.40

The House divided

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN:

Subject to correction:

Ayes : 22 Noes : 77


366

(Here enter the Division Lists for Ayes and Noes arranged in alphabetical order)

The Amendment was negatived.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, I shall put the Schedule to vote:

The Schedule was added to the Bill. Clause 7 was added to the Bill.

Clauses 8 to 26 were added to the Bill. Clause 1, the Enacting Formula and the Title were added to the Bill.


That the Bill be passed.


(Ends)

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, I shall put the Unlawful Activities

(Prevention) Amendment Bill, 2008 to vote. The question is,

That the Bill further to amend the Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Act, 1967, as passed by Lok Sabha, be taken into consideration.


MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, we shall take up clause-by-clause



MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, we shall take up Clause 12. There are

five amendments (Nos. 1 to 4) by Shri Sitaram Yechury and (No. 5) by

Shri D. Raja.

CLAUSE 12 - Insertion of new sections 43A to 43F - Power to arrest, search, etc.

SHRI SITARAM YECHURY: Sir, I move :


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1. That at page 4, line 48, for the words, "extend the said period up to one hundred and eighty days", the words "need not grant extension beyond ninety days" be substituted.

2. That at page 5, line 44, for the words, "court shall presume, unless the contrary is shown, that the accused has committed such offence", the words "on the basis of such evidence, shall establish the veracity of the offence" be substituted.

3. That at page 6, line 7 for the word, "shall" the word "can" be substituted.

4. That at page 6, lines 7 and 8, the words, "with imprisonment for a term which may extend to three years or with fine or with both" be deleted.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, in the same clause, there is one

amendment (No. 5) by Shri D. Raja.

SHRI D. RAJA: Sir, I move:

5. That at page 5, lines 35 to 45 be deleted.

The House divided.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN:

Subject to correction:

Ayes : 16

Noes: 89

(Here enter the Division Lists for Ayes and Noes arranged in alphabetical order)


368

The Amendments were negatived. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, I shall put Clause 12 to vote:


Clauses 13 to 17 were added to the Bill. Clause 1, the Enacting Formula and the Title were added to the Bill.


That the Bill be passed.


(Ends)

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The House is adjourned to meet tomorrow

at 11.00 a.m.

---

The House then adjourned at forty-one minutes past nine of the clock till eleven of the clock on Friday, the

19th December, 2008.

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