11/2001VHS Auto1 Point type Ignition Flow Chart Auto 2 Trouble Shooting.
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Transcript of 11/2001VHS Auto1 Point type Ignition Flow Chart Auto 2 Trouble Shooting.
11/2001 VHS Auto 1
Point type Ignition Flow ChartPoint type Ignition Flow Chart
Auto 2Auto 2
Trouble ShootingTrouble Shooting
11/2001 VHS Auto 3
Fixing something that is brokenFixing something that is broken How can you fix something How can you fix something efficientlyefficiently if you if you
don’t even know how it is broken?don’t even know how it is broken? To troubleshoot something that doesn’t work To troubleshoot something that doesn’t work
correctly you need:correctly you need:– To know how it is suppose to workTo know how it is suppose to work– The basics of how it worksThe basics of how it works– Critical thinking comparing what isn’t working to how Critical thinking comparing what isn’t working to how
it is suppose to workit is suppose to work– A logical process to eliminate the possible causes of the A logical process to eliminate the possible causes of the
problemproblem– Proper toolsProper tools
11/2001 VHS Auto 4
Trouble shootingTrouble shooting
If you had never seen an apple, never read If you had never seen an apple, never read about an apple, and no one had ever told about an apple, and no one had ever told you anything about an apple, it would very you anything about an apple, it would very difficult for you to tell me what is wrong difficult for you to tell me what is wrong with these apples.with these apples.
11/2001 VHS Auto 5
Trouble shootingTrouble shooting
It would even be more difficult for you to It would even be more difficult for you to tell me how to fix what is wrong with these tell me how to fix what is wrong with these applesapples
11/2001 VHS Auto 6
Trouble shooting for no sparkTrouble shooting for no spark In the same way, if you haven’t learned how we In the same way, if you haven’t learned how we
make spark in the ignition system, it will be make spark in the ignition system, it will be very difficult for you to figure out why an very difficult for you to figure out why an engine doesn’t have sparkengine doesn’t have spark
If you don’t know the basics of electricity, it If you don’t know the basics of electricity, it will be very difficult for you to diagnose what is will be very difficult for you to diagnose what is wrongwrong
If you don’t know how to use test equipment, it If you don’t know how to use test equipment, it will be very difficult for you to find your will be very difficult for you to find your problemproblem
11/2001 VHS Auto 7
Logical testing & eliminationLogical testing & elimination Hopefully you learned by now:Hopefully you learned by now:
– How the primary ignition system works to How the primary ignition system works to make sparkmake spark
– Basic rules to series and parallel circuits and Basic rules to series and parallel circuits and can apply the knowledgecan apply the knowledge
– How to select the proper electrical measuring How to select the proper electrical measuring tools and how to use themtools and how to use them
So now we need to learn how to use a So now we need to learn how to use a process of elimination to diagnose a vehicle process of elimination to diagnose a vehicle that doesn’t have sparkthat doesn’t have spark
11/2001 VHS Auto 8
There is usually more that one There is usually more that one rightright way to fix something way to fix something
The flow chart I have made for point type The flow chart I have made for point type ignition is just the way that is logical and ignition is just the way that is logical and works efficiently for meworks efficiently for me– By no means is it the only wayBy no means is it the only way
Since we don’t have a lot of experience yet Since we don’t have a lot of experience yet with diagnosis, lets use my method for with diagnosis, lets use my method for logically eliminating all the causes of an logically eliminating all the causes of an ignition system that is not working correctlyignition system that is not working correctly
11/2001 VHS Auto 9
Primary IgnitionPrimary Ignition We had better know by We had better know by
now:now:– Key on, points on, Key on, points on,
primary current flows primary current flows and creates a magnetic and creates a magnetic field around primary field around primary winding of coilwinding of coil
– Points open, magnetic Points open, magnetic field crashes inducing field crashes inducing high voltage into high voltage into secondary winding secondary winding creating sparkcreating spark
11/2001 VHS Auto 10
Draw primary ignition on back of Draw primary ignition on back of flow chart fairly largeflow chart fairly large
+ -
RUN
+-
11/2001 VHS Auto 11
Checking Conventional Ignition Systems
Is there spark from coilwire while cranking?
11/2001 VHS Auto 15
Checking Conventional Ignition Systems
Is there spark from coilwire while cranking?
With key on, IsThere power to “+”
Side of coil?
NO
11/2001 VHS Auto 20
Primary ignition circuitPrimary ignition circuit
+ -
RUN
+-
If we didn’t have power to “+” sideof coil, what would be the causes?
11/2001 VHS Auto 21
Checking Conventional Ignition Systems
Is there spark from coilwire while cranking?
With key on, IsThere power to “+”
Side of coil?
NO
Ballast resistor,wiring to “+”side of coil or
ign switch is open
NO
11/2001 VHS Auto 22
Primary ignition circuitPrimary ignition circuit
+ -
RUN
+-
If you have power to coil positiveThen you know this side of circuitIs doing it’s job and we can moveon What should we
Check next ?
11/2001 VHS Auto 23
Checking Conventional Ignition Systems
Is there spark from coilwire while cranking?
With key on, IsThere power to “+”
Side of coil?
NO
Ballast resistor,wiring to “+”side of coil or
ign switch is open
NO
Is there power to the“-” side of coil key on?
YES
11/2001 VHS Auto 26
Checking Conventional Ignition Systems
Is there spark from coilwire while cranking?
With key on, IsThere power to “+”
Side of coil?
NO
Ballast resistor,wiring to “+”side of coil or
ign switch is open
NO
Is there power to the“-” side of coil key on?
YES
Crank engine, does testlight blink on “-” side
of coil
NO
11/2001 VHS Auto 27
Primary ignition circuitPrimary ignition circuit
+ -
RUN
+-
When we crank the engineWhat should the points do?
11/2001 VHS Auto 28
Must have primary wires for coil hooked up
CRANKCRANKCRANKCRANKCRANK
CRANKCRANK
CRANK
11/2001 VHS Auto 29
Checking Conventional Ignition Systems
YES
Is there spark from coilwire while cranking?
With key on, IsThere power to “+”
Side of coil?
NO
Ballast resistor,wiring to “+”side of coil or
ign switch is open
NO
Is there power to the“-” side of coil key on?
Crank engine, does testlight blink on “-” side
of coil
NO
NO
STAYS OFF(NO VOLTAGE)
11/2001 VHS Auto 30
Primary ignition circuitPrimary ignition circuit
+ -
RUN
+-
So while cranking the engineThe light stays off
How much voltage should be left on the “-” side ofCoil with the points closed and current flowing?
How much voltage should be on the “-” side ofCoil with the points open?
11/2001 VHS Auto 31
Write on back of flow chartWrite on back of flow chart With voltage to “With voltage to “++” side of coil, there are ” side of coil, there are
only four things that will cause no voltage only four things that will cause no voltage to “to “--” side of coil while cranking ” side of coil while cranking (light stays off)(light stays off)
1. Points always closed1. Points always closed
11/2001 VHS Auto 32
Primary ignition circuitPrimary ignition circuit
+ -
RUN
+-
What else would causeThe light to stay off?
11/2001 VHS Auto 33
Write on back of flow chartWrite on back of flow chart
With voltage to “With voltage to “++” side of coil there are ” side of coil there are only four things that will cause no voltage only four things that will cause no voltage to “to “--” side of coil while cranking ” side of coil while cranking (light stays off)(light stays off)
1. Points always closed1. Points always closed
2. Open or grounded primary winding in coil2. Open or grounded primary winding in coil
11/2001 VHS Auto 34
Open Primary windingOpen Primary windingDon’t forget to isolate one side of the coil
11/2001 VHS Auto 35
Primary ignition circuitPrimary ignition circuit
+ -
RUN
+-
What else would causeThe light to stay off?
11/2001 VHS Auto 36
Write on back of flow chartWrite on back of flow chart
With voltage to “With voltage to “++” side of coil there are ” side of coil there are only four things that will cause no voltage only four things that will cause no voltage to “to “--” side of coil while cranking ” side of coil while cranking (light stays off)(light stays off)
1. Points always closed1. Points always closed
2. Open or grounded primary winding in coil2. Open or grounded primary winding in coil
3. Grounded condenser3. Grounded condenser
11/2001 VHS Auto 38
Checking a good condenserChecking a good condenser
It will chargeup and goto infiniteresistance.
11/2001 VHS Auto 39
Write on back of flow chartWrite on back of flow chart
With voltage to “With voltage to “++” side of coil there are ” side of coil there are only four things that will cause no voltage only four things that will cause no voltage to “to “--” side of coil while cranking ” side of coil while cranking (light stays off)(light stays off)
1. Points always closed1. Points always closed
2. Open or grounded primary winding in coil2. Open or grounded primary winding in coil
3. Grounded condenser3. Grounded condenser
4. Grounded wire between coil “-” and points4. Grounded wire between coil “-” and points
11/2001 VHS Auto 41
Checking Conventional Ignition Systems
YES
Is there sparkwhile cranking?
With key on, IsThere power to “+”
Side of coil?
NO
Ballast resistor,wiring to “+”side of coil or
ign switch is open
NO
Is there power to the“-” side of coil key on?
NOCrank engine, does testlight blink on “-” side
of coil
NO
Let’s continue on
11/2001 VHS Auto 43
Crank engine, does testlight blink on “-” side
of coil
NO
Are points always staying closed? LOOK
11/2001 VHS Auto 44
Crank engine, does testlight blink on “-” side
of coil
NO
Are points always staying closed? LOOK
Do coil test
NO
Adjust Dwell
YES
11/2001 VHS Auto 45
Crank engine, does testlight blink on “-” side
of coil
NO
Are points always staying closed? LOOK
Do coil test
NO
Adjust Dwell
YES
Replace
BADGOOD
Check for agrounded condenser
11/2001 VHS Auto 46
Crank engine, does testlight blink on “-” side
of coil
NO
Are points always staying closed? LOOK
Do coil test
NO
Adjust Dwell
YES
Replace
BADGOOD
Check for agrounded condenser
BAD
Replace
GOOD
Primary wire between“-” side of coil and
points is grounded Repair
11/2001 VHS Auto 47
Crank engine, does testlight blink on “-” side
of coil
NO
Are points always staying closed? LOOK
Do coil test
NO
Adjust Dwell
YES
Replace
BADGOOD
Check for agrounded condenser
BAD
Replace
GOOD
Primary wire between“-” side of coil and
points is grounded Repair
That takes care ofThe staying off side
#1
#2
#3
#4
11/2001 VHS Auto 48
Crank engine, does testlight blink on “-” side
of coil
NO
Are points always staying closed? LOOK
Do coil test
NO
Adjust Dwell
YES
Replace
BADGOOD
Check for agrounded condenser
BAD
Replace
GOOD
Primary wire between“-” side of coil and
points is grounded Repair
Let’s go the
Other way
11/2001 VHS Auto 49
Checking Conventional Ignition Systems
Is there sparkwhile cranking?
With key on, IsThere power to “+”
Side of coil?
NO
Ballast resistor,wiring to “+”side of coil or
ign switch is open
NO
Is there power to the“-” side of coil key on?
YES
11/2001 VHS Auto 50
Primary ignition Primary ignition circuitcircuit
+ -
RUN
+-
Is there power to the“-” side of coil key on?
11/2001 VHS Auto 51
Is there power to the“-” side of coil key on?
YES
Crank engine: doesTest light blink on
“-” side of coil?
11/2001 VHS Auto 52
Primary ignition circuitPrimary ignition circuit
+ -
RUN
+-
When we crank the engineWhat should the points do?
11/2001 VHS Auto 53
Primary ignition circuitPrimary ignition circuit
+ -
RUN
+-
So while cranking the engineThe light stays on
How much voltage should be left on the “-” side ofCoil with the points closed and current flowing?
How much voltage should be on the “-” side ofCoil with the points open?
11/2001 VHS Auto 54
Write on back of flow chartWrite on back of flow chart
There are only three things that will cause There are only three things that will cause voltage all the time to “voltage all the time to “--” side of coil while ” side of coil while cranking cranking (light stays on)(light stays on)
1. Points always open1. Points always open
11/2001 VHS Auto 56
Primary ignition circuitPrimary ignition circuit
+ -
RUN
+-
What Else wouldCause the lightTo say on ?
11/2001 VHS Auto 57
Write on back of flow chartWrite on back of flow chart
There are only three things that will cause There are only three things that will cause voltage all the time to “voltage all the time to “--” side of coil while ” side of coil while cranking cranking (light stays on)(light stays on)
1. Points always open1. Points always open
2. Open primary wire between “-” coil and points2. Open primary wire between “-” coil and points
11/2001 VHS Auto 59
Primary ignition circuitPrimary ignition circuit
+ -
RUN
+-
What Else wouldCause the lightTo say on ?
11/2001 VHS Auto 60
Write on back of flow chartWrite on back of flow chart
There are only three things that will cause There are only three things that will cause voltage all the time to “voltage all the time to “--” side of coil while ” side of coil while cranking cranking (light stays on)(light stays on)
1. Points always open1. Points always open
2. Open primary wire between “-” coil and points2. Open primary wire between “-” coil and points
3. Points not grounded or contacts bad3. Points not grounded or contacts bad
11/2001 VHS Auto 62
Is there power to the“-” side of coil key on?
YES
Crank engine: doesTest light blink on
“-” side of coil?
NO
Are pointsalways open?
11/2001 VHS Auto 63
Is there power to the“-” side of coil key on?
YES
Crank engine: doesTest light blink on
“-” side of coil?
NO
Are pointsalways open?
NO
Points are either not groundedor primary wire is open between
“-” side of coil and pointsCheck & repair
11/2001 VHS Auto 64
Is there power to the“-” side of coil key on?
YES
Crank engine: doesTest light blink on
“-” side of coil?
YES
Adjust dwell to Specs
NO
Are pointsalways open?
NOYES
Points are either not groundedor primary wire is open between
“-” side of coil and pointsCheck & repair
If the light blinkswhile cranking. .GREAT
It has to blinkTo have spark
11/2001 VHS Auto 65
Is there power to the“-” side of coil key on?
YES
Crank engine: doesTest light blink on
“-” side of coil?
YES
Adjust dwell to Specs
NO
Are pointsalways open?
NOYES
Points are either not groundedor primary wire is open between
“-” side of coil and pointsCheck & repair
If the light blinksand the dwell isset correctly
Is there spark?
YES
GREAT If vehiclewon’t start, restartat top of flow chart
11/2001 VHS Auto 66
Is there power to the“-” side of coil key on?
YES
Crank engine: doesTest light blink on
“-” side of coil?
YES
Adjust dwell to Specs
NO
Are pointsalways open?
NOYES
Points are either not groundedor primary wire is open between
“-” side of coil and pointsCheck & repair
If still no spark
Is there spark?
YES
GREAT If vehiclewon’t start, restartat top of flow chart
NO
Test coil & coil wire
11/2001 VHS Auto 70
Is there power to the“-” side of coil key on?
YES
Crank engine: doesTest light blink on
“-” side of coil?
YES
Adjust dwell to Specs
NO
Are pointsalways open?
NOYES
Points are either not groundedor primary wire is open between
“-” side of coil and pointsCheck & repair
Is there spark?
YES
GREAT If vehiclewon’t start, restartat top of flow chart
NO
Test coil & coil wire
BAD
Replace
GOODCondenser is either openor not grounded Repair
11/2001 VHS Auto 71
Checking a good condenserChecking a good condenser
It will chargeup and goto infiniteresistance.
11/2001 VHS Auto 74
Weak SparkWeak Spark
Point type ignition should produce at least 20,000 Point type ignition should produce at least 20,000 volts (20 KV) which should jump up to at least ¼” volts (20 KV) which should jump up to at least ¼” and be blue in colorand be blue in color
Let’s write this up at the to right of flow chartLet’s write this up at the to right of flow chart Weak spark can be caused by:Weak spark can be caused by:
– Dwell out of specsDwell out of specs
– Bad coil (shorted windings, secondary open)Bad coil (shorted windings, secondary open)
– Bad condenserBad condenser
– Pitted points that arcPitted points that arc
NEW PITTED
11/2001 VHS Auto 75
We should be able to succeedWe should be able to succeed
Next time we are in the shop, you will have Next time we are in the shop, you will have 50 minutes to diagnosis and repair a vehicle 50 minutes to diagnosis and repair a vehicle that the customer complains of a that the customer complains of a “NO “NO START”START”
It will have at least one problem in the It will have at least one problem in the primary ignition system that causes no sparkprimary ignition system that causes no spark
You will also be responsible to make sure the You will also be responsible to make sure the dwell is set correctly before you give it back dwell is set correctly before you give it back to the customerto the customer
11/2001 VHS Auto 77
Checking Conventional Ignition Systems
Is there spark from coilwire while cranking?
YES
11/2001 VHS Auto 79
Checking Conventional Ignition Systems
Is there spark from coilwire while cranking?
Fuel system mustbe in order
Is there spark atone or two plug wires?
YES
11/2001 VHS Auto 81
Checking Conventional Ignition Systems
Is there spark from coilwire while cranking?
Fuel system mustbe in order
Is there spark atone or two plug wires?
NO
Repair badcap or rotor
YES
11/2001 VHS Auto 83
Checking Conventional Ignition Systems
Is there spark from coilwire while cranking?
Fuel system mustbe in order
Is there spark atone or two plug wires?
NO
Repair badcap or rotor
YES
Make sure firingorder is correctIs distributor
in time?
YES
11/2001 VHS Auto 84
Firing order and distributor in timeFiring order and distributor in time
Firing OrderFiring Order– Have to know which way distributor rotatesHave to know which way distributor rotates– Have to know firing orderHave to know firing order– Have to know where #1 plug itHave to know where #1 plug it
Distributor in timeDistributor in time– Remove #1 plug and Remove #1 plug and start upstart up on compression on compression
strokestroke– Turn by hand (less than ½ turn) to TDCTurn by hand (less than ½ turn) to TDC– See if rotor is point to #1 on capSee if rotor is point to #1 on cap
11/2001 VHS Auto 86
Checking Conventional Ignition Systems
Is there spark from coilwire while cranking?
Fuel system mustbe in order
Is there spark atone or two plug wires?
NO
Repair badcap or rotor
YES
Make sure firingorder is correctIs distributor
in time?YES NO
Correct
If still have spark but won’t start, check formechanical problems (compression)
YES
11/2001 VHS Auto 87
CongratulationsCongratulations
Once we learn fuel systems, you should be Once we learn fuel systems, you should be able to able to efficientlyefficiently diagnosis why a car with diagnosis why a car with point type ignition won’t startpoint type ignition won’t start