Tavistock Aftermass

A Collection of Articles and Poems as Dialogs between Hanumatpresaka Swami, Anjana Suta Academy, and the Spirit of Dr. Carl Gustav Jung.

[revision history2013 june 272013 september 102013 september 162013 september 18 – complete re-read and editing and addition of “first release” ideas.]

Contents1. MEETING FOR THE FIRST TIME (About 2013 June 27)..............................12. FIRST BOOK REVIEW (About 2013 September 10)..................................4

Evolution, The Very Idea, and The Bhagavata’s Alternative....................4

1. MEETING FOR THE FIRST TIME (About 2013 June 27)Anjana Suta Academy (ASA): Esteemed Professor Jung, it is a great pleasure and honor to meet you. We have been reading and citing your thoughts in our lectures for many, many years. Specifically, we read and appreciated very much your Tavistock Lectures, and more recently it was with extreme delight we encountered an internet interview with you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gG0TuZ7j5zo

Spirit of Professor Carl Gustav Jung (SPJ): Thank you. We read your Power-point dialog with Dr. Campbell, Japa-Joe, and we noted, you have potential, in-spite of being surrounded by an animalistic crew of Monkeys and Piggys.

ASA: Please forgive us.

CGJ: Nobody’s perfect. Let us start with your cosmology. You mentioned, SANKHYA: Oriental Philosophy of Nature. That was in that pptx (power-point show). You have also read the Tavistock Lectures, so you must know enough about both worlds to explain your Oriental wisdom to us.

ASA: We can try, although we feel a little bit like dogs barking at the moon.

Our philosophy of nature has derived out of our personal progress in education. WHY WE SEE NATURE

We were born on Guam, in the Marianas Islands, January of 1948. That was at the end of World War II. Our father was there with the US Army Corp of Engineers. He met our mother, they fell in love, got married and we were born. We came back to the USA,

California/Arizona, and grew up there, but we have always felt like a Chinese monk trapped in a white-man’s body. Maybe the stork was a little confused about which baby to deliver.Since our earliest childhood we were fascinated by Chinese art, and Chinese poetry, and Chinese music. (On the other hand lot of Chinese food we find, oof, very difficult.)

SPJ: Again, there is good and bad in everyone…So, the stork made a mistake and left a Chinese monk with a Western white lady. Hmmm, excellent and humorous possibilities. Please to go on.

ASA: Well, we grew up in California. Went to the University of California. Graduated first place in Psychology, with minor-studies in Biology and Electrical Engineering. Our mentor for the PhD, at Northwestern University, was Prof. Donald Campbell. We were honored to introduce him in the pptx. As we said he sent us packing, back to the East, and eventually we got a Black Belt in Okinawan Karate and then we actually matriculated as novice monks in Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada’s, Gaudiya-vaisnava tradition. That was in 1974, and in 1984 we took life-long monastic vows. During all of this we also had a chance to study improvisational theater with the Second City in Chicago.The Karate taught us about Prana, tactile flow of energy in the body, the improvisational theater from Stanislavskii and Viola Spolin was the best study in psychology that we had up until we entered the monastic life.

SPJ: So, what are your Monasteries books? Yoga-sutras? Bhagavad-gita?

ASA: Gaudiya or Bengali, Vaisnavas, follow Sri Krsna-caitanya and especially take shelter of the Bhagavata-purana, Srimad Bhagavatam.

Professor George L. Harte, University of California, in the Preface to his, A Rapid Sanskrit Method, (Motilal Banarsidass, Dehli, 1989), writes:

“It [Sanskrit] is, like Chinese, Arabic, Greek and Latin, one of the few languages which has been a carrier of a culture over a long period of time. Thus, the variety of writings in it, and the quantity of those writings are staggering. An incomplete list of subjects treated in Sanskrit, usually with great prolixity, is as follows:

The four Vedas The Brahmanas and

Aranyakas The Upanisads Grammar Epic, puranic, literature -

Including 18 major puranas, 18 minor puranas, and hundred of sthalapuranas.

Works on Medicine Logic Astronomy & Astrology Mathematics Lawbooks Architecture Music…

On most of these subjects, there is an immense literature still extant. Indeed, a rough estimate of the works which will be listed in The New Catalogus Catalogorum yields a total of about 160,000 works… many so difficult that it would take years of study to properly understand them.…Sanskrit does have its share of great writers: Kalidasa ranks with the greatest poets, Panini is without question the greatest pre-modern grammarian, the Mahabharata ranks with the Iliad and the Odyssey, and the

Bhagavata-purana is among the finest works of devotion every written, being equaled in my opinion only by other works in Indian languages.” [Emphasis ours].

We have heard comments from one esteemed emeritus professor of Sanskrit literature from Madras University, that having read all the major Sanskrit literature, and many of the minor texts, he could assert that when it is described that the other Puranas appear very impressive, like stars in the clear evening sky until the full-moon of the Bhagavata-purana comes up, that it is not an exaggeration.For the beauty of the poetry, for the depth of the philosophy, for the sophistication of its Sanskrit grammar, the Bhagavata is in a class by itself.Personally we would submit that after thirty years of studying and applying the yoga of the Bhagavata and lecturing on it at esteemed universities throughout the world we can see that even now the West is just coming to appreciate it as maybe the greatest treasure of world classical literature.At this point could I suggest that we go ahead by myself re-reading your excellent Tavistock lectures and then bringing up relevant points from the Bhagavata as we advance?

SPJ: That sounds like an excellent didactic approach and might also get you clear of the criticism of neurosis for claiming to talk with the spirit of a departed soul.Also, if you put down the proper book title of the Tavistock lectures then our readers may also join us in reading it, and it may even gift a little income to my heirs in the process so that they may kindly remember me as well.

ASA: C. G. Jung, Analytical Psychology – Its Theory and

Practice (Vintage Books / Random House, 1970)

###

2. FIRST BOOK REVIEW (About 2013 September 10)ASA: Well, Professor, about ten weeks have passed since we last conversed.SPJ: That is alright we have also been very busy. What results do you have to report?ASA: We finished re-reading the Tavistock lectures, your auto-biography and scanned the dialog about psychoanalysis between our preceptor, Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, Prabhupada, and his disciples.SPJ: Conclusions?ASA: We are impressed with Professor Jung’s life, courage and experiences to a great degree. We feel that there is a great deal we can offer as comparisons and contrasts, but we also feel that it will take some time to review our notes on our reading. However, some things do seem to be prominent.SPJ: (Nodding).ASA: First, we do seem to have some important perspectives that Professor Jung lacks. During his visit to India he especially avoided talking with Sadhus, renunciant yogis. We feel that at that time with Professor’s conditioning from the European school this may have been the correct approach. Now, with the progress that the world and Professor has certainly made it would seem very much time to approach these Yogis for their offerings.Srila Prabhupada presented himself as a cosmopolitan figure that common people could follow. However, for those who have approached him from the psychological, mystical, intuitive perspective he is easily discernible as perfect yogi. A word to the wise is sufficient.Of course, there is nothing in this esoteric connection that violates the rules of ethics, morality and religious practice that he presents.

He comments that a Sannyasi should never “renounce” Mangala-arati, 4.30AM temple service.This is the first thing we feel after reading, we can introduce Professor Jung to some aspects of Indian introspective philosophy.

Within this perspective the next thing seems to be that Professor, like so many Western thinkers have accepted Darwinian evolution as fact. In professor’s writings we find no direct consideration of the truth of the theory of evolution. However, when we make a review based on our notes we think that there are some indirect comments. We find this unconsidered acceptance common. However, to our own intelligence and from our reading of the Bhagavata school, this is not a natural view of reality.This then would be our first point to address:Evolution, the Very Idea, and the Bhagavata’s Alternative“Dear Hanumat Presaka Swami,Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada! I have recently listened to your lectures on scientific preaching. I am interested in learning more about this subject because I feel that it is related to my Dharma. Maybe it is something that I can do for Krishna in the future.I am currently living at the Krishna House in Gainesville, and I am enrolled in a Master of Education program at the University of Florida. I have a Master’s degree in Biology from the University of North Florida, and my current program is designed specifically for secondary science teachers.When I first met the devotees, about 1½ years ago, I was taking a course in Advanced Evolution. I was thoroughly convinced that this was the mechanism by which species were created. It took some time for me to open up to the

possibility that there is another explanation. I saw a presentation by Drutakarma Prabhu on Forbidden Archaeology, and purchased his book Human Devolution. Unfortunately, I have not devoted much time to reading it yet.For some time, I have left my questions about evolution behind, because I wanted to focus on strengthening my devotional life. Now I am faced with these questions once again, because I am expected to teach the theory of evolution, and no other theory of the origins of life, in the secondary classroom.I am planning to talk to one professor, who I believe is Christian, to find out what is permissible and what is not. I feel that I should be allowed to bring up some of the holes in the theory, the “loose ends” that don’t line up perfectly. I should be able to encourage critical thinking. But many people in my field are adamant that nothing other than evolution should be taught because it is the only truly “scientific” theory for life’s origins.I find it a bit paradoxical, because I am also learning that we should be sensitive to the various cultural backgrounds of our students. We should present information in a way that relates to their experiences and prior knowledge. Yet while many of my students will have been raised with a belief in God, I am only allowed to teach an atheistic theory that promotes the idea that we are nothing more than matter, a fantastic accident.Forgive me for taking up so much of your time, but after listening to your lectures I felt that you are very qualified to answer some of my questions. I have spoken to several different people about these issues, and I have received several different responses. Someone suggested that I should focus only on reading Srila

Prabhupada’s books, because they are the most valuable and because there are so many. Another devotee, who works as a cellular biologist, said that he believes evolution is the best explanation we have, but he is willing to let go of his attachment to scientific evidence when it comes into conflict with spiritual knowledge. He also made the point that in order to fully understand the arguments for and against evolution, he would need to become an evolutionary biologist, and even then he would not know everything.So I guess my main question is this: Is it a worthwhile endeavor to try and learn about the scientific arguments for and against evolution? Can I use this in Krishna’s service? Also, if you feel that it is worthwhile, I would like to know which arguments against evolution do you think are the strongest?In addition to Human Devolution I have Rethinking Darwin and Life comes from Life. What other resources do you recommend? Can I find more information on the conferences you mentioned in your lecture on scientific preaching? Are there any conferences coming up in the near future?I greatly appreciate your taking the time to consider my questions. I look forward to hearing from you, and perhaps I will even get to meet you at the Nashville Ratha Yatra! Hare Krishna!

Your Servant,Laura McLaughlin

HpS – ASA -- Jaya! AGTSP. Paoho. You have many questions.Is it relevant to your service?    I would say that it is a little bit relevant at this point. Like looking outside to see if it is raining before you leave for school in the morning. Now just try to focus on getting the fixed in the standard for

first initiation, 16-enthusiastic rounds, 4-principles strictly, a regular morning and evening program, experimenting with different service, sankirtan, association.Of course, along with this you have to go on living, eating, working, and looking to see if it is raining, but only by the time you are ready for second initiation will you really know if detailed investigation into evolution is your service.The origin of life is a big topic.I have a moderate reading of Druta. and Sadaputa books. They seem very rigorous. Also there is Nature's IQ which was quite nice.In general, and I think the first point, is that there are FUNDAMENTAL LOGICAL FLAWS in the evolutionary theory the way it is presented, and second we have an ALTERNATIVE SCIENTIFIC EXPLANATION from the Bhagavata.1. We accept natural selection, that pressure from the environment eliminates or favors different offspring. Krsna learned in Guru-kula how to do selective breeding. It has been known in Vedic culture for 5,000 years, comes with the Vedas.But evolution is another thing. Evolution says that a random mutation fits into the environment, nature, better than existing forms. But this means, and I have seen from the very beginning of Darwin's presentation this flaw was recognized and Darwin and Huxley were try to dance around it, that if we are going to call it "better" the environment already is supplying a higher standard. Where does that come from? "Nature" already knows the highest standard and favors those random mutations that fit better into "her" goal?For example, we know the history of green moths and grey moths related to the industrialization of the English countryside. Today gray moths survive but then when the soot is cleaned up we are back

to green moths. Which is "higher" on the evolutionary scale?Do you see the BASIC flaw?We accept natural selection but not that we can say that they are evolving or getting better.Nature itself may be changing. Then something will fit in better today and not tomorrow. If they are evolving by fitting better that implies a constant standard toward which the chance mutations are progressing. The way the evolutionary scenario is presented that goal is quite high. We will become godly.Another deadly logical flaw is as Bertram Russell commented that the most important idea in the 20th century is the idea of chance, because no one has the slightest idea what it means.Push a mathematician, statistician, biologist on this point, "What is a random event, chance mutation?"If you look in a basic book on statistics it will tell you that a random event is an event the outcome of which cannot be determined, "We are absolutely sure we don't know".In Vedic philosophy this is called "neti, neti", not this not this. It is an approach or a retreat toward knowledge.Evolution is based upon random mutations, but why do we say they are random? Maybe there is a cause why all the mutations occur that we just don't know yet.It is another big area, but from basic to advanced study we find it is full of faults, a random event.Nature must already have a goal, where do "random" events come from?Such a coffee and cigarette and Colonel Sander's chicken headed philosophy of the origin of the cosmos?Hitler, Goebels, "If you are going to tell a lie, tell a big one, because nobody would ever expect you to say such a big one".

Third, and last major flaw that we see is that if the chunk or singularity had no competition, was all there was, then why did it change? Was it improving?  Was there a random event from some other source?Then let us look at the alternative from the Bhagavatam. This is described briefly in the Gita, more in the Second Canto of the Bhagavatam etc. It is Sankhya. It is not understandable to most Western intellectuals because they are conditioned to lower modes of mental activity. Their minds are absorbed in matter. We graduated 1st place in psychology for U. of California with minor studies in biology and electrical engineering. Then we were invited on on full fellowship to UCLA and Northwestern. Our mentor, Donald Campbell at NW, and own intelligence pushed us out to look for wider perspectives. That lead to Okinawan karate, improvisational theater and YOGA....  SB...  Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami and Jiva Goswami.Sankhya requires a change in perspective. We have to go from doing science (karma) to logical understanding of science (jnana) to contemplation, meditation, in science (dhyana), to loving science (bhakti) to understand the deepest aspects of the source and operation of reality.Meditation, intuitive processes, are only roughly taught in modern universities in the drama department, in theater training, as far as I know. Following the grand tradition of Stanislavskii and Viola Spolin, "My Life in Art" and "Improvisation for the Theater", they offer practical methods of meditation for Western modern people. We use them in our ISKCON yoga.What is the Bhagavata creation scenario?That Krsna expands as the Minister of Prisons, Maha-visnu. He sends

the glass, cement, steel, wood, p-nut butter and BLUE PRINTS and PRISON RULES. Garbodaksayi Visnu enters each prison as its Warden. Ksirodakasayi Visnu enters as the individual Guards.Brahma is the Trustee who creates the individual cells etc.The criminals, lunatics move in.It starts from subtle to gross, from steam to water to ice.The creation stories in the beginning are taking place when there are like maybe 100 gods and goddesses in the universe. It is a subtle level, more permanent and substantial than gross matter, the blue-print level.In a dream a women may have erotic connection with a snake and give birth to snake babies. This is the dream world. It is more "real" than the gross world. Read Carl Jung's Auto biography.Then the subtle bodies from the demigod level start to produce more gross bodies at the semi-demigod level like Gandharvas (fairies), Dwarfs etc. They have “magical” powers to disappear etc. Then from them it evolves to ice, gross level, our level. Blue-print becomes house.This is a summary.The details and the explanation of how to scientifically experience it are there in the SB.We will submit this essay to the Spirit of Carl G. Jung with whom we are now having a dialog.  Thank you!!!!  We hope this was useful.First thing is to get fixed deeply in your heart in getting up early and getting your rounds done!!”

Esteemed Professor, what do you think of these ideas?

SPJ: Unsettling… Let us contemplate your ideas for a few days and then we will get back to you.

ASA: Yes, sir.

A Few Sunrises Later

ASA: What merciful words for us Professor?SPJ: Very difficult. The institutional side of me wants to dismiss you as completely crazy. I am very much challenged with this realization that I, the “great Carl Jung”, might be fundamentally bewildered by provincial concepts that I have not scientifically examined.I can say with a little bemused smile that your ideas have caused me several days of great reflection.ASA: We certainly have to demur that they cannot be counted as our ideas. If we had not met our preceptor, Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami by the will of providence we would not have been fixed in this conception.SPJ: Our bemusement continues, as we were bright enough to figure this out. So, like Dr. Campbell, we have been perusing the archives on your web-page, your Bhaktivedanta Library pptx, your Srimad Bhagavatam Chapter Study Guides, and we came to Text 1.17.381. No smoking, drinking, fornicating, no meat, fish, nor eggs.We were more astonished.ASA: (pause).SPJ: (pause)ASA: (pause)SPJ: So, we have given up smoking… and all the rest … just as an experiment.ASA: What has been the result?1 http://vedabase.com/en/sb/1/17/38

SPJ: (Smiling) Your entire culture is very bemusing. We feel enormously better. However, we see that it would not have been possible without your and your guru’s association.ASA: It is the same for us and many.SPJ: Let me suggest this. Now, 2013 September 18, you turn this whole mess over to your friend Dr. Ravi P. Singh, the psychiatrist, and director of your NIOS. Let him read Memories, Dreams, Reflections and make his comments.

Dr. Divya-svarupa, Dr. Ravi P. Singh, Hp Swami

You can also pass it to the other reviewers such as Professor Polo in South America and others.

Miguel PoloChairman, Philosophy San Marcos University, Lima

Ruben DevotoInstitute for Oriental and Occidental Classical Studies,

Ricardo Palma University, Lima

Dolores ChavezMonterey Technical University, Mexico City

I think we have laid a good foundation for considering your Sankhya. If your top-down cosmology holds some interest, then the next challenge is for you to fill in the details, after that, the process, the steps.