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Self and Non Self; Permanence & Impermanence

A Dialogue on the Nature of Ultimate Reality

Organized by

The Global Peace Initiative of Women &

Prof. Meem Zaffar, Institute of Kashmir Studies, University of Kashmir

Srinagar, October 21 & 22, 2012

Most interreligious exchanges focus on common approaches to social problems and seek to establish a

framework for greater understanding and collaboration. Rarely do such exchanges explore the deepest

perceptions of the religious experience. When they do enter the realm of experiential knowledge,

language and concepts present a barrier, difficult to break through. And so religions stop short of

acknowledging that perhaps the great mystics of all religious traditions have similar perceptions of the

nature of the Ultimate Reality using words and metaphors appropriate to different cultures and

times.

In the Buddhist tradition, it is common to talk about the Buddhas rejection of the Vedas, but rarely is

there a comparison of the Buddhas teachings and the teachings of the Upanishads. Buddhists talk

about Non-Self; Yogis refer to the Atman. Is there a difference? What do we mean by Non-Self? What

is meant by Atman? When the skandas or sheathes of identity are unraveled, and the subtle layers of

mind that create individuation fall away, what remains? The Yogis refer to an essence, the

consciousness underlying all. The word to describe this is Sat Chit Ananda Existence, Consciousness,

Bliss. Is this the Non-Self of the Buddhists? Non-Self carries with it the suggestion of annihilation, and

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yet Buddhists would say that in the ultimate sense, there is existence not annihilation. Thus Non-Self

could be seen as consciousness undivided. Does Non-Self equate with Non-Separation, Non-

Individuation?

In the Yogic tradition, there is a reference to that which is Unchanging the Consciousness underlying allthat is. The Buddhists talk about Impermanence as the nature of Ultimate Reality. The only thing that

is constant is impermanence they would say. Everything is always in flux. But is this merely a quality of

the consciousness that underlies all: the Yogis describe this consciousness as ever new. They also say

this consciousness is beyond qualities and thought -- beyond any concept, beyond what the mind can

conceive. Is there a contradiction between these views everything continually in flux and an

underlying unchanging reality -- or are they complementary?

Are these merely different ways of describing an experience that is beyond word and thought. All wouldacknowledge that no concept can capture the nature of Ultimate Reality. We can only make references

to that experience.

The question we seek to address in this dialogue is whether there is a contradiction between the

Buddhist and Yogic views of the Ultimate Reality. Is the Buddhist understanding of Non-Self really

different from what the Yogis refer to as the undivided Essence? Does the Yogic concept of a

Permanence -- a constant, unchanging state of Being -- contradict the Buddhist understanding of a

reality that is always in flux, always changing.

Since this dialogue is being held in Kashmir, we will also invite Sufis to offer their understanding of these

concepts. In their tradition, what is the nature of the Ultimate Reality?

Enclosed are some quotes from the Bhagavad Gita, the Upanishads, and Buddhist texts to help us

prepare for this dialogue. We ask you to bring your own texts but to speak mainly from experience.

This will be an informal discussion so no formal papers are required. We will video and/or tape the

dialogue as we may develop a book from the discussions.

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Self and Non-Self

Quotes from Texts

From the Gita

No one can bring to an end the Spirit which is everlasting. Gita, Chapter 2 verse 17

But beyond my visible nature is my invisible Spirit. This is the fountain of life whereby this universe has

its being. Chapter 7 verse 5 of the Gita

Brahman is the Supreme, the Eternal. Atman is his Spirit in man. Gita, Chapter 8, verse 3

Know that with one single fraction of my Being I pervade and support the Universe, and know that I AM.

Gita, Chapter 10, verse 42

Beginningless and free from changing conditions, imperishable is the Spirit SupremeAnd even as one

sun gives light to all things in this world, so the Lord of the field gives light to all his field. Those who

with the eye of inner vision see the distinction between the field and the knower of the field, and see

the liberation of spirit from matter, they go into the Supreme. Gita, chapter 13, verses 31-34

From the Upanishads

Isha UpanishadWho sees all beings in his own Self, and his own Self in all beings, loses all fear. When

a sage sees this great Unity and his Self has become all beings, what delusion and what sorrow can ever

be near him.

Katha Upanishad Concealed in the heart of all being is the Atman, the Spirit, the Self; smaller than the

smallest atom, greater than the vast spaces. When the wise realize the omnipresent Spirit, who rests

invisible in the visible and permanent in the impermanent, then they go beyond sorrow.

Katha Upanishad the light of the Atman, the Spirit, is invisible, concealed in all beings. It is seen by the

seers of the subtle, when their vision is keen and is clear The Atman is beyond sound and form,

without touch and taste and perfume. It is eternal, unchangeable and without beginning or end.

Katha Upanishad beyond the senses is the mind, and beyond mind is reason, its essence. Beyond

reason is the Spirit in man and beyond this is the Spirit of the universe, the evolver of all. And beyond is

Purusha, all-pervading, beyond definitions. When a mortal knows him, he attains liberation and reaches

immortality.

From The Essence of Buddhism by Traleg Kyabgon Rinpoche

We must have a proper understanding of impermanence. A real appreciation of impermanence comes

from realizing the impermanence of the self. What we regard as the self, which we think is unchanging

and immutable, in fact is always in process. Real transformation of the self can take place because the

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self is not some kind of immutable, unchanging entity The reason we need to gain proper insight into

the nature of the self is precisely because real, lasting happiness comes from just that: having insight

into the nature of the self, into the nature of the mind, and realizing the misconception of an

unchanging, permanent, enduring self.

namshe thaye Infinite consciousness here means that as we go deeper into the state ofconsciousness, we see that everything is actually consciousness; there is no sense of duality between

subject and object. The third level of absorption is called chiyang mepa in Tibetan, which means

nonexistence. The state of absorption has become deeper so that we really have absolutely no

experience, no feelings, no emotions, no thoughts or concepts arising in the mind; so there is nothing.

The last state of absorption is known as non-perception, which is even deeper than the one before

when were already feeling that there was nothing; it is as though that is not good enough! We have

non-perception. Non-perception is yomin memin (neither existence nor nonexistence) in Tibetan,

which means that, unlike the previous state, we are not even thinking that there is nothing. Even that

thought has been dropped.